[RE-wrenches] Module Ground (was The Demise of Reason)

Mon Sep 13 19:46:13 PDT 2010

Owing to a strong lack of political correctness, I would point out the
obvious; Underwriters Labs decisions are strongly influenced by industries
that stand to financially benefit from UL rule making. Those component
manufacturers pay a lot to have their products listed. Who among us has not
grimaced at having to pay ridiculously high prices for simple electrical
components, simply because it has the UL stamp.
The PV industry is a long way from having that kind of clout. Even a
revolutionary invention like the WEEB is not judged solely on its merits.
And with its long and monopolistic history, UL is not about to cut a bit of
slack to another upstart competitor like ETL.
My $0.02

Jim Duncan
North Texas Renewable Energy
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
Installer No.31310-57
TECL 27398
ntrei at 1scom.net
817.917.0527
www.ntrei.com

  -----Original Message-----
  From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Joel Davidson
  Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 6:18 PM
  To: RE-wrenches
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module Ground (was The Demise of Reason)

  Bill,

  You and John Wiles have shown leadership on the module grounding issue. It
would be good to know who at UL is preventing a universal solution so that
this issue can be resolved at the highest level once and for all. What do
you suggest for the course of action?

  Joel Davidson

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
  From: Bill Brooks <billbrooks7 at yahoo.com>
  To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
  Cc: Christopher Flueckiger <Christopher.Flueckiger at us.ul.com>; Tim Zgonena
<timothy.p.zgonena at us.ul.com>
  Sent: Mon, September 13, 2010 8:44:39 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason

  Peter,

  No tone was intended. The theme of your post was good, but the subject was
  misleading. The fact that you were shocked twice by my questioning your
  subject means that you misunderstood the tone of my questioning of your
  subject title. I misunderstood your post and reacted to a very negative
  subject heading that gave the impression that the WEEB product was
generally
  experiencing its demise.

  I have heard of a few companies that have withdrawn information about the
  WEEB in their literature, but I was unaware that SunPower was one of them.

  Grounding of module frames has been a big issue for over a decade and
module
  manufacturers have not done a lot to help the installer in this area. When
  UL cracked down on the haphazard way that grounding was being approached
in
  the field, it became a major issue. Manufacturers had to retest many of
  their products and provide details on the methods allowed in their
manuals.
  Since adding grounding options to a module required additional testing
which
  was expensive, many manufacturers went the easiest route to get approved.
  This was not good for products like the WEEB since it now required testing
  with every module type. In addition, my understanding is that UL has not
  allowed the WEEB on UL-listed products since the product was not evaluated
  by UL and they do not have the test data that supports how it was
evaluated.
  That may be the source of the issue with SunPower--you would have to ask
  them directly.

  We need a more generic approach to grounding and that is what is currently
  underway. Grounding and bonding is extremely important and jurisdictions
are
  focused on it for obvious safety reasons. We need solutions that are
clearly
  reliable and straightforward so that installers and jurisdictional
  authorities don't have to constantly be revisiting the issue.

  Bill.

  -----Original Message-----
  From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
  [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
  Parrish
  Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 7:18 AM
  To: 'RE-wrenches'
  Cc: 'Christopher Flueckiger'; 'Tim Zgonena'
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason

  Bill (and Chris and Tim),

  "Be a little bit more careful in your choice of subjects..."?

  I am shocked, shocked that you would use that tone with me.

  If you would re-read my post, I talked about three things:

  (1) SunPower's no longer supporting the WEEB clip technology and
regressing
  to the ILSCO GBL-4DBT.

  You are right about the insertion of the star washer between the lug and
  module frame. I wonder what SP's response to that might be...

  (2) As for SP's comment that they pulled the WEEB clip, "due to UL testing
  changes". Does anyone close enough to the situation know what this means?

  (3) I never mentioned the SP IFF clip. I mentioned the Tyco SolKlip.

  SP mentions the IFF in their literature but do not offer it to their
dealers
  (as far as I know), and I haven't been able to find it yet in their
product
  literature, except for a small low-resolution image. I assumed that the
Tyco
  SolKlip was a different component -- however it may be similar or may be
  rebranded by SP as the IFF -- I don't know.

  Bonding PV arrays and their supporting structures is complicated subject
and
  in my experience is one of the more frequently examined aspects of PV
  installations by inspectors (along with bonding and grounding the other
  components). So it would seem to be an apt subject for discussion by those
  of us actively installing PV systems subject to inspection by the AHJ.

  - Peter

  Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
  California Solar Engineering, Inc.
  820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
  CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
  peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
  Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

  -----Original Message-----
  From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
  [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill
Brooks
  Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 8:50 PM
  To: 'RE-wrenches'
  Cc: 'Christopher Flueckiger'; Tim Zgonena
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason

  Peter,

  Be a little more careful in your choice of subjects. You are talking about
  the SunPower IFF clip. I have not heard this story, but I don't doubt it.
  There have been significant changes at UL and ETL, the two largest listers
  of PV modules, in the area of evaluating grounding equipment for PV
modules.

  Unfortunately, the shift to overly conservative approaches to module
  grounding has caused huge problems with field installations. To make
matters
  worse, installation manuals from PV modules have been required to get
  extremely specific about the only methods allowed to ground and bond the
  module frames. This conservative approach has shut the door on many
methods
  that are far superior to the methods shown, because of the cost of
  evaluating these products or due to lack of cooperation between UL and
ETL.

  Finally, many of the module manufacturer's installation manuals, the ones
we
  are supposed to believe, actually violate the listings of the products
they
  recommend. The ILSCO GBL-4DBT lay-in lug is the most famous example of
these
  mistakes. Several prominent installation manuals state that a stainless
  starwasher must be installed under ILSCO lug. Although this will work, it
is
  a violation of the listing of the lug. Yet it is in the installation
manual
  and it is one of only a very few options--and it is wrong. What are we to
  think of this whole situation? It is out of control and messed up.

  The problem lies in the poorly worded UL1703 that has not been updated in
  this area since the changes in application of the standard started some 3
or
  4 years ago. There have been several attempts to get this problem
resolved,
  but the attempts have not made it to fruition. There is a new movement
afoot
  to deal with this once and for all, but I'm still a little skeptical.

  Bill.

  -----Original Message-----
  From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
  [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
  Parrish
  Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 1:49 PM
  To: 'RE-wrenches'
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB

  We were informed a while ago that SunPower no longer "supports" their
  version of the WEEB clip "due to UL testing changes." (unspecified) and
  appears to have regressed to the ILSCO GBL-4DBT lugs with SS star washers,
  lock washer, nut and specific torque requirements.

  Most people I have spoken with feel that the lug approach, though a
  competent means of bonding PV modules, is awkward and time consuming,
  compared to the WEEB clips.

  What happened wrt UL testing and how is CSA listing affected?

  I seem to remember a video showing a conventional lug-based bond fail
under
  test as par of a WEEB promo. I hope I can find it and take a look at it
  again.

  There also is a Tyco SolKlip that SunPower is apparently looking at but no
  word yet from SP, and it is not clear that the SolKlip has been affected
by
  "UL testing changes".

  Any info on the UL testing changes would be much appreciated.

  - Peter

  Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
  California Solar Engineering, Inc.
  820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
  CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
  peter.parrish at calsolareng.com
  Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

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