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<DIV><SPAN class=312292802-14092010><FONT face=Arial>Owing to a strong lack of
political correctness, I would point out the obvious; Underwriters Labs
decisions are strongly influenced by industries that stand to
financially benefit from UL rule making. Those
component manufacturers pay a lot to have their products listed. Who among
us has not grimaced at having to pay ridiculously high prices for simple
electrical components, simply because it has the UL stamp.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=312292802-14092010><FONT face=Arial>The PV industry is a long
way from having that kind of clout. Even a revolutionary invention like the WEEB
is not judged solely on its merits. And with its long and monopolistic history,
UL is not about to cut a bit of slack to another upstart competitor like ETL.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=312292802-14092010><FONT face=Arial>My $0.02
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=312292802-14092010><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=312292802-14092010><FONT face=Arial>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Jim Duncan</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>North Texas Renewable Energy</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT></DIV><FONT size=2>NABCEP Certified Solar
PV</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Installer No.31310-57</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>TECL 27398</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:ntrei@1scom.net"><FONT
size=2>ntrei@1scom.net</FONT></A><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>817.917.0527</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.ntrei.com/"><FONT size=2>www.ntrei.com</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Joel
Davidson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 13, 2010 6:18 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> [RE-wrenches] Module Ground (was The Demise of
Reason)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">
<DIV>Bill,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You and John Wiles have shown leadership on the module grounding
issue. It would be good to know who at UL is preventing a universal solution
so that this issue can be resolved at the highest level once and for
all. What do you suggest for the course of action?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Joel Davidson<BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"><BR>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Bill Brooks
<billbrooks7@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Christopher Flueckiger
<Christopher.Flueckiger@us.ul.com>; Tim Zgonena
<timothy.p.zgonena@us.ul.com><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Mon, September 13, 2010 8:44:39
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [RE-wrenches]
The Demise of Reason<BR></FONT><BR>Peter,<BR><BR>No tone was intended. The
theme of your post was good, but the subject was<BR>misleading. The fact that
you were shocked twice by my questioning your<BR>subject means that you
misunderstood the tone of my questioning of your<BR>subject title. I
misunderstood your post and reacted to a very negative<BR>subject heading that
gave the impression that the WEEB product was generally<BR>experiencing its
demise. <BR><BR>I have heard of a few companies that have withdrawn
information about the<BR>WEEB in their literature, but I was unaware that
SunPower was one of them. <BR><BR>Grounding of module frames has been a big
issue for over a decade and module<BR>manufacturers have not done a lot to
help the installer in this area. When<BR>UL cracked down on the haphazard way
that grounding was being approached in<BR>the field, it became a major issue.
Manufacturers had to retest many of<BR>their products and provide details on
the methods allowed in their manuals.<BR>Since adding grounding options to a
module required additional testing which<BR>was expensive, many manufacturers
went the easiest route to get approved.<BR>This was not good for products like
the WEEB since it now required testing<BR>with every module type. In addition,
my understanding is that UL has not<BR>allowed the WEEB on UL-listed products
since the product was not evaluated<BR>by UL and they do not have the test
data that supports how it was evaluated.<BR>That may be the source of the
issue with SunPower--you would have to ask<BR>them directly.<BR><BR>We need a
more generic approach to grounding and that is what is currently<BR>underway.
Grounding and bonding is extremely important and jurisdictions are<BR>focused
on it for obvious safety reasons. We need solutions that are
clearly<BR>reliable and straightforward so that installers and
jurisdictional<BR>authorities don't have to constantly be revisiting the
issue.<BR><BR>Bill.<BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
ymailto="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
ymailto="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>]
On Behalf Of Peter<BR>Parrish<BR>Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 7:18
AM<BR>To: 'RE-wrenches'<BR>Cc: 'Christopher Flueckiger'; 'Tim
Zgonena'<BR>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason<BR><BR>Bill (and
Chris and Tim),<BR><BR>"Be a little bit more careful in your choice of
subjects..."?<BR><BR>I am shocked, shocked that you would use that tone with
me. <BR><BR>If you would re-read my post, I talked about three things:
<BR><BR>(1) SunPower's no longer supporting the WEEB clip technology and
regressing<BR>to the ILSCO GBL-4DBT. <BR><BR>You are right about the insertion
of the star washer between the lug and<BR>module frame. I wonder what SP's
response to that might be...<BR><BR>(2) As for SP's comment that they pulled
the WEEB clip, "due to UL testing<BR>changes". Does anyone close enough to the
situation know what this means?<BR><BR>(3) I never mentioned the SP IFF clip.
I mentioned the Tyco SolKlip. <BR><BR>SP mentions the IFF in their literature
but do not offer it to their dealers<BR>(as far as I know), and I haven't been
able to find it yet in their product<BR>literature, except for a small
low-resolution image. I assumed that the Tyco<BR>SolKlip was a different
component -- however it may be similar or may be<BR>rebranded by SP as the IFF
-- I don't know.<BR><BR>Bonding PV arrays and their supporting structures is
complicated subject and<BR>in my experience is one of the more frequently
examined aspects of PV<BR>installations by inspectors (along with bonding and
grounding the other<BR>components). So it would seem to be an apt subject for
discussion by those<BR>of us actively installing PV systems subject to
inspection by the AHJ.<BR><BR>- Peter <BR>
<BR>Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President<BR>California Solar Engineering,
Inc.<BR>820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065<BR>CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP
Cert. 031806-26<BR><A href="mailto:peter.parrish@calsolareng.com"
ymailto="mailto:peter.parrish@calsolareng.com">peter.parrish@calsolareng.com</A>
<BR>Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax
323-258-8885<BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
ymailto="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
ymailto="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>]
On Behalf Of Bill Brooks<BR>Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 8:50 PM<BR>To:
'RE-wrenches'<BR>Cc: 'Christopher Flueckiger'; Tim Zgonena<BR>Subject: Re:
[RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason<BR><BR>Peter,<BR><BR>Be a little more
careful in your choice of subjects. You are talking about<BR>the SunPower IFF
clip. I have not heard this story, but I don't doubt it.<BR>There have been
significant changes at UL and ETL, the two largest listers<BR>of PV modules,
in the area of evaluating grounding equipment for PV
modules.<BR><BR><BR>Unfortunately, the shift to overly conservative approaches
to module<BR>grounding has caused huge problems with field installations. To
make matters<BR>worse, installation manuals from PV modules have been required
to get<BR>extremely specific about the only methods allowed to ground and bond
the<BR>module frames. This conservative approach has shut the door on many
methods<BR>that are far superior to the methods shown, because of the cost
of<BR>evaluating these products or due to lack of cooperation between UL and
ETL.<BR><BR>Finally, many of the module manufacturer's installation manuals,
the ones we<BR>are supposed to believe, actually violate the listings of the
products they<BR>recommend. The ILSCO GBL-4DBT lay-in lug is the most famous
example of these<BR>mistakes. Several prominent installation manuals state
that a stainless<BR>starwasher must be installed under ILSCO lug. Although
this will work, it is<BR>a violation of the listing of the lug. Yet it is in
the installation manual<BR>and it is one of only a very few options--and it is
wrong. What are we to<BR>think of this whole situation? It is out of control
and messed up.<BR><BR>The problem lies in the poorly worded UL1703 that has
not been updated in<BR>this area since the changes in application of the
standard started some 3 or<BR>4 years ago. There have been several attempts to
get this problem resolved,<BR>but the attempts have not made it to fruition.
There is a new movement afoot<BR>to deal with this once and for all, but I'm
still a little skeptical.<BR><BR>Bill.<BR><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
ymailto="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
ymailto="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>]
On Behalf Of Peter<BR>Parrish<BR>Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 1:49
PM<BR>To: 'RE-wrenches'<BR>Subject: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB<BR><BR>We
were informed a while ago that SunPower no longer "supports" their<BR>version
of the WEEB clip "due to UL testing changes." (unspecified) and<BR>appears to
have regressed to the ILSCO GBL-4DBT lugs with SS star washers,<BR>lock
washer, nut and specific torque requirements.<BR><BR>Most people I have spoken
with feel that the lug approach, though a<BR>competent means of bonding PV
modules, is awkward and time consuming,<BR>compared to the WEEB
clips.<BR><BR>What happened wrt UL testing and how is CSA listing
affected?<BR><BR>I seem to remember a video showing a conventional lug-based
bond fail under<BR>test as par of a WEEB promo. I hope I can find it and take
a look at it<BR>again.<BR><BR>There also is a Tyco SolKlip that SunPower is
apparently looking at but no<BR>word yet from SP, and it is not clear that the
SolKlip has been affected by<BR>"UL testing changes".<BR><BR>Any info on the
UL testing changes would be much appreciated.<BR><BR>- Peter<BR><BR>
<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<BR>Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.,
President<BR>California Solar Engineering, Inc.<BR>820 Cynthia Ave., Los
Angeles, CA 90065<BR>CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26<BR><A
href="mailto:peter.parrish@calsolareng.com"
ymailto="mailto:peter.parrish@calsolareng.com">peter.parrish@calsolareng.com</A>
<BR>Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax
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