[RE-wrenches] Trojan L16 2v vs 6v

[Darryl Thayer]

My experiance is limited, but I saw results of paralled AGMs cataching fire, It was several years ago, I think is was only 4 parallel strings (maybe 6).  It happened during the day with a high charge rate.  AGMs have a higher temperature voltage temperature curve.  The temperature got higher on one string, then its voltage became lower, then it got most of the current, then the other batteries put their power into the single hot string.  

A second fire is when 4 strings of flooded batteries 800 AH per string the charge current was about 250 Amps the batteries were each string in a foam insulated box. 4 boxes.  One string caught fire, one battery in that string was the worst so it appears that was the battery that caught fire.  I was not able to run tests but it appeared that once the battry had broken down, the other batteries put energy into the cell.  There was no overcurrent protection on each string, and I do not know how to get it.  


--- On Tue, 7/20/10, Howie Michaelson <howie at suncatchervt.com> wrote:

> From: Howie Michaelson <howie at suncatchervt.com>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16 2v vs 6v
> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Date: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 9:56 PM
> Ronald, et al,
> 
> I for one would very much appreciate an informed discussion
> about
> paralleling strings of batteries, particularly in an
> off-grid environment
> with and without PV (ie just generator charging).  I
> have over the years
> moved toward single strings whenever possible, having seen
> what I've
> assumed to be the negative effects of multiple strings many
> times
> (unbalanced banks, premature cell death, etc.).
> 
> I greatly appreciate the information being offered in this
> thread. 
> However, I must be thick headed at the moment, but I'm not
> getting what
> "OCV" means...
> 
> Thanks,
> Howie
> -- 
> Howie Michaelson
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
> 
> Sun Catcher, LLC
> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
> VT Solar & Wind Incentive Program Partner
> http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
> (cell) 802-272-0004
> (home) 802-439-6096
> 
> 
> On Tue, July 20, 2010 12:16 pm, Ronald Paredes wrote:
> > Hello Phil and Esteemed Wrenches,
> >
> > Sorry for the delay in my reply and thank you for
> pointing that out... My
> > answer was incomplete as I did not address low charge
> currents. You won't
> > believe how many times I have seen end users trying to
> charge batteries
> > with a 10W PV panel!
> >
> > You're right. The use of low charge currents can also
> lead to problems. In
> > addition to longer charge times and possibly
> undercharging the battery,
> > low charge currents often lead to stratification, and
> worse, they may fail
> > to polarize the electrodes, which will lead to other
> problems as well. It
> > is generally not recommend to use an initial charge
> current that is lower
> > than the C/100 rate. As for the (higher) charge
> currents as a function of
> > hour rates, using the C/10, C/15, and C/20 will yield
> the best cycle life.
> > The demarcation point is usually the C/5 rate. I've
> seen/designed lots of
> > systems that do go beyond the C/5 rate, but I usually
> recommend that they
> > be professionally maintained to avoid the problems
> that are usually
> > accompanied by higher currents. Because of the
> stochastic nature of the
> > charge systems in RE applications, it is difficult if
> not impossible to
> > have/maintain a constant current source, so the higher
> charge currents may
> > or may not be a problem. The reality is that it is
> better to charge the
> > batteries than to undercharge them even if the
> currents are not ideal.
> > Temperature should also be taken into consideration,
> but we'll leave that
> > topic aside for now (unless anyone is interested).
> >
> > As for the L16RE-2V battery, (as you correctly pointed
> out) it is
> > essentially three paralleled 370Ah cells. We are
> currently making it a
> > true 2V cell and should have it available very soon.
> The L16RE-2V was
> > initially designed that way because we were getting
> lots of requests for a
> > high capacity and light weight 2V battery in the L16
> footprint or 903 BCI
> > size and that was the quickest way to design, test,
> and validate it.
> >
> > Strings in parallel are an interesting topic that
> still needs further
> > studies/tests. Most academic/industry papers place the
> limit at 6 to 9
> > strings. Other papers state that there is no
> theoretical limit as long as
> > the proper instrumentation, monitoring equipment, and
> the proper
> > maintenance practices are in place. Utility-level
> battery banks often
> > exceed these limits and are very successful at it.
> There is a lot to be
> > said about this topic (it is one of my favorites ones
> and I have many
> > others), but we'll leave it aside for now (unless
> anyone is interested).
> >
> > As for the watering, there are a lot of excellent
> watering systems
> > available today. We have one ourselves that we call
> the Hydrolink Watering
> > System, and I love using it in the lab/field because
> it saves a lot of
> > time. I do feel your pain with the specific gravity
> measurements as I've
> > spent countless hours and have ruined countless pants
> doing it myself!!
> >
> > Here's a general formula that may help:
> >
> > OCV = SG + .845
> >
> > I will go ahead and send you the graph on your
> personal account. If anyone
> > else would like a copy of the graph please let me
> know.
> >
> > Thank you for your reply Phil.
> >
> > I know that you are all very busy, but is everyone
> aware that the RE
> > Series batteries operate at lower specific gravities?
> If anyone would like
> > the SG table please feel free to contact me. I'm here
> to help you.
> >
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Ronald Paredes
> > Technical Product Manager - Renewable Energy
> > Trojan Battery Company
> >
> > 12380 Clark Street
> > Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
> > Tel: (562)236-3000 Ext. 3066
> > Fax: (562)236-3279
> > rparedes at trojanbattery.com<mailto:rparedes at trojanbattery.com>
> > www.trojanbattery.com<http://www.trojanbattery.com/>
> >
> > Trojan Battery Company - Clean Energy for Life(tm)
> >
> > From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]
> On Behalf Of Phil
> > Undercuffler
> > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 10:15 PM
> > To: RE-wrenches
> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16 2v vs 6v
> >
> > Wow, this has been a wonderful and fruitful thread.
> First, Ron let me
> > thank you for some impressive responses, and great
> information.  I have
> > some nits, but those are small and inconsequential, so
> I'll leave them to
> > later.  However, I want to chime in a bit just to
> set a frame of
> > reference, if everyone will be patient with me. 
> I'm concerned that one
> > person's interpretation of "grey" will be misconstrued
> and quoted as
> > gospel "gray" from now until eternity.
> >
> > Specifically, Ron you answered Darryl that "Your
> recommendation to
> > customers is 100% accurate... It is better to use low
> charge currents."  I
> > want to be clear, however, that your definition of
> "low" is extremely
> > different that that of most solar designers. 
> Darryl was suggesting
> > "...never charge faster than C/10 and C/15 or C/20 is
> better" whereas you
> > were saying "It is usually recommended to use a range
> of 10% to 13% of the
> > battery's 20-hour rate."  I know that might not
> sound like much of a
> > difference, but let's take a quick survey -- who among
> you wrenches
> > normally install greater than 6kW of PV per 1,000 AH
> of battery at 48
> > volts?  Whoa, not a lot of hands.....  Do
> the math, but that's roughly
> > what it takes to obtain a C/10 charge rate with
> straight PV.  In all my
> > years of working the wholesale trade, the systems I've
> seen which could
> > theoretically achieve a C/10 charge rate are
> statistically insignificant.
> > Systems which could perhaps achieve C/20 (except for
> those pesky
> > oft-ignored daytime loads)...lot more hands in the air
> now.  Systems which
> > which hope and pray to someday hit C/100 (if the
> owners go off on
> > vacation)....Bing Bing Bing -- you win the prize!
> >
> > Climbing off my soapbox, my point is that Ron, your
> definition as a
> > battery manufacturer of "low" should be used with a
> clear reference to
> > what "high" would be. Just want to clarify that before
> we all start
> > hearing "but Trojan says I should charge at low
> current levels, so my 500W
> > PV array will be just fine for that 1,000 AH
> battery!!!"
> >
> > The one question I have about the new Trojan 2V L16s
> would be what,
> > exactly, is the benefit they provide for the designer
> and installer?  When
> > I look at the design, it looks like it's just using an
> existing case with
> > three 350AH cells connected in parallel (2V) inside,
> rather than the
> > standard series connection (6V) or better yet using a
> single 1,100AH cell.
> >  If good design practice calls for no more than
> three strings (cells) in
> > parallel, then good practice would call for no more
> than a single string
> > of these specific batteries, since any more than that
> would mean 6, 9 or
> > more cells in parallel.  Count the caps,
> folks.  How about those watering
> > chores.  Measuring specific gravities? 
> Shoot me first, please!  I think
> > Blair was right about looking at true industrial
> cells.
> >
> > So on to the nit -- can you send me a copy of the
> Excel file of the IEC
> > 61427 graph?  Gmail doesn't show the Excel graph,
> and the .png file shows
> > up as little more than a thumbnail -- I can grok the
> essential info from
> > the other graphs and tables, but that 13 years worth
> of data just doesn't
> > come through in a legible manner, least not to my
> aging eyes.
> >
> > This discussion is much appreciated
> >
> > Phil Undercuffler
> >
> >
> >
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