[RE-wrenches] Enphase performance
David Katz
dkatz at aeesolar.com
Mon May 10 22:42:32 PDT 2010
Bill,
Sunpower likes to sell overpriced, private labeled inverters along with
their modules. The make installers who want to use their modules, but
"Sunpower" inverters.
David
David Katz
Chief Technical Officer
AEE Solar
1155 Redway Drive
P.O. Box 339
Redway, CA 95560
Tel (707) 825-1200
Fax (707) 825-1202
dkatz at aeesolar.com <mailto:david at aeesolar.com>
www.aeesolar.com <http://www.aeesolar.com/>
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Bill Loesch wrote:
> Marv,
>
> What would be a (or more) reason(s) that the module manufacturer
> wouldn't want to be on your approved list (and sell more modules)?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Bill Loesch
> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Marv Dargatz <mailto:mdargatz at enphaseenergy.com>
> *To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> *Sent:* Monday, May 10, 2010 4:59 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase performance
>
> Marco,
>
> Sorry, I missed that question in the previous e-mail.
>
> A couple of points about the compatibility list:
>
> 1. We include only modules that have passed our internal math
> check for compatibility over the temperature range of the inverter.
>
> 2. If the module manufacturer objects to being on the
> compatibility list, we will not include them.
>
> Sunpower has objected, so they are not on the list.
>
> Zhejiang Wanxiang Solar Co. Ltd is also shown as compatible with
> the M210.
>
> The list is only a guideline. Any module that falls within the
> voltage spec over the expected operating temperature range of the
> installation, and does not exceed the inverter DC input short
> circuit current rating is certainly a valid combination, and the
> inverter is fully warranted. Notice that module power rating is
> not a factor here.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
>
> See ya!
>
> Marv
> 707 763-4784 x7016
>
>
>
>
> Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:
>>
>> So why is the Enphase 210 just limited "officially" to the Sanyo
>> line?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> marco
>>
>> Dana, Marco, Wrenches,
>>
>> In most locations, if the interest is in maximum lifetime energy
>> production, it does make sense to use modules with STC power
>> ratings significantly higher than the inverter max power rating.
>>
>> This is explained in the whitepaper located at:
>>
>> http://www.enphaseenergy.com/downloads/Enphase_White_Paper_Module_Rightsizing.pdf
>>
>> Remember, under most real world conditions the module will not
>> produce STC rated power. The inverter WILL produce maximum rated
>> power plus some small percent to allow for the CEC max power test
>> methods. Also, the module will produce less power every year
>> (under the same conditions) and the inverter will produce its'
>> max rated power for its' entire lifetime.
>>
>> By the way, this all applies to string, central, or
>> microinverters. Of course, micros still retain the advantages of
>> dealing with mismatch, partial shading/soiling, etc.
>>
>> Bottom line is, the "perfect" match will depend on your
>> particular installation.
>>
>>
>> See ya!
>>
>> Marv
>> 707 763-4784 x7016
>>
>>
>>
>> Dana Brandt wrote:
>>
>> Something to remember is that my simulation was for a specific
>> location in Washington. The answer might be different for your
>> location and weather patterns.
>>
>> I agree that it seems wrong to have the inverter rating 20% less
>> than the array nameplate. Typically, I would consider that sort
>> of pairing a poor design. You're right that there will certainly
>> be some clipping - especially with cloud-edge effects. The real
>> question in my mind is not whether the inverter will ever clip
>> the output of the array, but what's the real impact of that on
>> energy generation on an annual basis. This is what lead me to do
>> the modeling simulations which indicated the effect is negligible
>> when taken in the context of the total annual production.
>> Compared to the whole year's sun, there just isn't that much
>> energy in high production spikes like cloud edge effects that the
>> inverters will clip - at least not around here.
>>
>> One thing to consider is that if you go with smaller modules you
>> need more inverters. You might compare the cost of the additional
>> inverters to the value of the 0.2% energy loss from clipping over
>> the lifetime of the system.
>>
>> Dana
>>
>>
>> Dana Brandt
>> Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC
>> www.ecotechenergy.com <http://www.ecotechenergy.com>
>> dana at ecotechenergy.com <mailto:dana at ecotechenergy.com>
>> 360.510.0433
>>
>> On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 11:36 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf
>> <marco at pvthawaii.com <mailto:marco at pvthawaii.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I just don't understand why going over 20 percent of module
>> nameplate to nameplate inverter rating makes any sense.
>>
>> I regularly see 120-130 percent of nameplate amperage coming off
>> of the array on our office due to edge of cloud.
>>
>> So I have to disagree with Dana in this instance. I see this a
>> bad design especially since lower output mods are so readily
>> available these days.
>>
>> And what's up with the Enphase 210? Doesn't it say on their
>> latest compatibility list (March 2010) that it's only good for
>> the Sanyo line? What's up with that especially since I know that
>> one other manufacturer is signing off on using the Enphase 210
>> with their 210-watt module, apparently with Enphase's approval?
>>
>> Marv---why is your Enphase 210 only listed for use with the Sanyo
>> line when there's a growing number of 210+ watt mods out there
>> these days?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> marco
>>
>> I've been concerned about pairing higher wattage modules (~230W)
>> with the 190W Enphase fearing a lot of clipping and power loss
>> when the modules are at full power.
>>
>> I did some modeling of this setup in PVSYST and found that the
>> expected loss from the inverter being underpowered is 0 - 0.2%
>> annually depending on the assumptions. The modeling was for
>> northwestern Washington State. A fifth of a percent seems pretty
>> negligible to me and is easily offset by removing module mismatch
>> from the equation. So, I'm convinced that matching modules in the
>> 230W range with the 190W Enphase inverters is a good design.
>>
>> I recently installed 4kW of 230s with the Enphase 190s and have
>> seen their output as high as 199W.
>>
>> Dana
>>
>>
>> Dana Brandt
>> Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC
>> www.ecotechenergy.com <http://www.ecotechenergy.com>
>> dana at ecotechenergy.com <mailto:dana at ecotechenergy.com>
>> 360.510.0433
>>
>> On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Chris Worcester
>> <chris at solarwindworks.com <mailto:chris at solarwindworks.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Do the Enphase inverters clip the output power to their rating
>> like other manufacturer's? So a M190 can only put out 190 watts
>> max? I have had this question for a bit now on system
>> performances using Enphase in designs during our cold spring and
>> fall days.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Chris Worcester
>>
>> Solar Wind Works
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer
>> Phone: 530-582-4503
>> Fax: 530-582-4603
>> www.solarwindworks.com <http://www.solarwindworks.com/>
>> chris at solarwindworks.com <mailto:chris at solarwindworks.com>
>> "Proven Energy Solutions"
>>
>> *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>> <mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of
>> *Mark Westbrock
>> *Sent:* Friday, May 07, 2010 10:33 AM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase performance
>>
>> The over-reporting of energy that Randy refers to below was much
>> higher than any discrepancy based on monitoring resolution. We
>> have a pyranometer at the site, and Enphase reported energy
>> production as high as 38% higher that predicted from irradiance
>> data, as well as 38% higher than the string inverter portion of
>> the same system. Individual microinverters showed instantaneous
>> power output as high as 285 W from a nominal 190 W unit.
>>
>> Enphase explained that there was a software glitch that was
>> resulting in "double counting". It took them over two months to
>> correct this issue, time which is lost from our experimental
>> comparison of string vs. microinverter. They indicated that this
>> seemed to be an isolated situation, but I wonder how many Enphase
>> customers are reporting miraculous performance from their system
>> without verifying via another meter.
>>
>> Screen shot of a day's power production of 22 M190 microinverters
>> (nominal 4180 watts AC):
>>
>> *Error! Filename not specified.*
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Mark Westbrock
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
>> NM ER-1J Journeyman Electrician
>> Positive Energy, Inc.
>> office: 575-524-2030
>> cell: 575-640-2432
>> westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com <mailto:westbrock at positiveenergysolar.com>
>> www.positiveenergysolar.com <http://www.positiveenergysolar.com>
>>
>> We definitely experienced an overstatement.
>>
>> We have a client who installed 5kW on a string inverter and 5kW
>> on enphase and it is that side-by-side comparison that enabled us
>> to positively identify a problem. There was a significant
>> overstatement of output. We finally got a Enphase person who told
>> us it was a software glitch. The problem appears to be fixed.
>> They explained to us that our problem was isolated without giving
>> us a detailed explanation of what happened. Since that problem
>> was fixed, we have seen no difference in output between a string
>> inverter and enphase.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>> Kirpal Khalsa wrote:
>>
>> This same issue has come up over the years for us......first with
>> PV Powered inverters and then noticed in Fronius as well......We
>> have noticed in most of our grid tied systems that are connected
>> thru a "revenue grade meter" for Oregon Energy Trust production
>> reporting, that the inverter always has a higher performance than
>> indicated on the "utility grade meter". We have seen the
>> discrepency as high as 10%. Over time this adds up to
>> significant kWh differences. In our experience the inverter
>> always has the higher kWh reporting, we have attributed this to
>> the inverter wanting to report a good production number, to boost
>> their efficiency claims......maybe even more than is
>> accurate.....I have asked PV Powered and Fronius about this and
>> their line is that to put a "revenue grade meter" into the
>> inverter would be cost prohibitive......interesting as the
>> readily available revenue grade meters are only $30-$60. I
>> would gladly pay that much extra if I didn't have to wire in an
>> additional meter.
>> I don't think this problem is unique to the Enphase units (i
>> haven't installed any of these), I think all inverters should be
>> required to install the revenue grade meters to give accurate
>> reporting of actual production. Similar to how states have a
>> "weights and scales" accuracy certification, energy consumption
>> and production meters should be similarly calibratable.
>>
>> --
>> Sunny Regards,
>> Kirpal Khalsa
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> www.oregonsolarworks.com <http://www.oregonsolarworks.com>
>> 541-218-0201 m
>> 541-592-3958 o
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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