[RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason

R Ray Walters ray at solarray.com
Mon Sep 13 11:19:01 PDT 2010 

Hi Bill;

690.43 seems to practically spell out acceptance of the WEEB. 
and then it cross references article 250.136A.

250.136 EQUIPMENT CONSIDERED GROUNDED  ........
"(A)Electrical equipment secured to and in electrical contact with a metal rack or structure provided for its support...."
(Is it the undefined "in electrical contact"?)

Third, in the NEC 2008 hand book, Exhibit 250.53 shows several generic (j-boxes, could be any electrical device?) mounted to a metal rack, with one bonding jumper from the rack to ground.
It seems to make a case that we don't even need the WEEB, that star washers on bolts to the frame would be acceptable, as long as the frame were grounded. 

On an Outback prewired powerboard (for example), all the equipment is considered grounded (and passes as a UL assembly) simply by being bolted altogether on a powder coated steel backing plate.
Is this also a voltage issue, for arrays over 250 v?

I'm sure I'm missing something.
I recall you once saying that UL doesn't even use the grounding hole when testing modules, that they just clamped an alligator clip to the frame?

Thanks for giving us the "NEC and beyond" viewpoint,

Ray Walters


> We need a more generic approach to grounding and that is what is currently
> underway.

Amen

> Grounding and bonding is extremely important and jurisdictions are
> focused on it for obvious safety reasons. We need solutions that are clearly
> reliable and straightforward so that installers and jurisdictional
> authorities don't have to constantly be revisiting the issue.
> 
> Bill.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
> Parrish
> Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 7:18 AM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> Cc: 'Christopher Flueckiger'; 'Tim Zgonena'
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason
> 
> Bill (and Chris and Tim),
> 
> "Be a little bit more careful in your choice of subjects..."?
> 
> I am shocked, shocked that you would use that tone with me. 
> 
> If you would re-read my post, I talked about three things: 
> 
> (1) SunPower's no longer supporting the WEEB clip technology and regressing
> to the ILSCO GBL-4DBT. 
> 
> You are right about the insertion of the star washer between the lug and
> module frame. I wonder what SP's response to that might be...
> 
> (2) As for SP's comment that they pulled the WEEB clip, "due to UL testing
> changes". Does anyone close enough to the situation know what this means?
> 
> (3) I never mentioned the SP IFF clip. I mentioned the Tyco SolKlip. 
> 
> SP mentions the IFF in their literature but do not offer it to their dealers
> (as far as I know), and I haven't been able to find it yet in their product
> literature, except for a small low-resolution image. I assumed that the Tyco
> SolKlip was a different component -- however it may be similar or may be
> rebranded by SP as the IFF -- I don't know.
> 
> Bonding PV arrays and their supporting structures is complicated subject and
> in my experience is one of the more frequently examined aspects of PV
> installations by inspectors (along with bonding and grounding the other
> components). So it would seem to be an apt subject for discussion by those
> of us actively installing PV systems subject to inspection by the AHJ.
> 
> - Peter 
> 
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
> California Solar Engineering, Inc.
> 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
> peter.parrish at calsolareng.com  
> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 8:50 PM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> Cc: 'Christopher Flueckiger'; Tim Zgonena
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason
> 
> Peter,
> 
> Be a little more careful in your choice of subjects. You are talking about
> the SunPower IFF clip. I have not heard this story, but I don't doubt it.
> There have been significant changes at UL and ETL, the two largest listers
> of PV modules, in the area of evaluating grounding equipment for PV modules.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, the shift to overly conservative approaches to module
> grounding has caused huge problems with field installations. To make matters
> worse, installation manuals from PV modules have been required to get
> extremely specific about the only methods allowed to ground and bond the
> module frames. This conservative approach has shut the door on many methods
> that are far superior to the methods shown, because of the cost of
> evaluating these products or due to lack of cooperation between UL and ETL.
> 
> Finally, many of the module manufacturer's installation manuals, the ones we
> are supposed to believe, actually violate the listings of the products they
> recommend. The ILSCO GBL-4DBT lay-in lug is the most famous example of these
> mistakes. Several prominent installation manuals state that a stainless
> starwasher must be installed under ILSCO lug. Although this will work, it is
> a violation of the listing of the lug. Yet it is in the installation manual
> and it is one of only a very few options--and it is wrong. What are we to
> think of this whole situation? It is out of control and messed up.
> 
> The problem lies in the poorly worded UL1703 that has not been updated in
> this area since the changes in application of the standard started some 3 or
> 4 years ago. There have been several attempts to get this problem resolved,
> but the attempts have not made it to fruition. There is a new movement afoot
> to deal with this once and for all, but I'm still a little skeptical.
> 
> Bill.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
> Parrish
> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 1:49 PM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB
> 
> We were informed a while ago that SunPower no longer "supports" their
> version of the WEEB clip "due to UL testing changes." (unspecified) and
> appears to have regressed to the ILSCO GBL-4DBT lugs with SS star washers,
> lock washer, nut and specific torque requirements.
> 
> Most people I have spoken with feel that the lug approach, though a
> competent means of bonding PV modules, is awkward and time consuming,
> compared to the WEEB clips.
> 
> What happened wrt UL testing and how is CSA listing affected?
> 
> I seem to remember a video showing a conventional lug-based bond fail under
> test as par of a WEEB promo. I hope I can find it and take a look at it
> again.
> 
> There also is a Tyco SolKlip that SunPower is apparently looking at but no
> word yet from SP, and it is not clear that the SolKlip has been affected by
> "UL testing changes".
> 
> Any info on the UL testing changes would be much appreciated.
> 
> - Peter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
> California Solar Engineering, Inc.
> 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
> peter.parrish at calsolareng.com  
> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
> 
> 
> 
> 
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