[RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason

Mon Sep 13 08:44:39 PDT 2010

Peter,

No tone was intended. The theme of your post was good, but the subject was
misleading. The fact that you were shocked twice by my questioning your
subject means that you misunderstood the tone of my questioning of your
subject title. I misunderstood your post and reacted to a very negative
subject heading that gave the impression that the WEEB product was generally
experiencing its demise. 

I have heard of a few companies that have withdrawn information about the
WEEB in their literature, but I was unaware that SunPower was one of them. 

Grounding of module frames has been a big issue for over a decade and module
manufacturers have not done a lot to help the installer in this area. When
UL cracked down on the haphazard way that grounding was being approached in
the field, it became a major issue. Manufacturers had to retest many of
their products and provide details on the methods allowed in their manuals.
Since adding grounding options to a module required additional testing which
was expensive, many manufacturers went the easiest route to get approved.
This was not good for products like the WEEB since it now required testing
with every module type. In addition, my understanding is that UL has not
allowed the WEEB on UL-listed products since the product was not evaluated
by UL and they do not have the test data that supports how it was evaluated.
That may be the source of the issue with SunPower--you would have to ask
them directly.

We need a more generic approach to grounding and that is what is currently
underway. Grounding and bonding is extremely important and jurisdictions are
focused on it for obvious safety reasons. We need solutions that are clearly
reliable and straightforward so that installers and jurisdictional
authorities don't have to constantly be revisiting the issue.

Bill.

-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Parrish
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 7:18 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Cc: 'Christopher Flueckiger'; 'Tim Zgonena'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason

Bill (and Chris and Tim),

"Be a little bit more careful in your choice of subjects..."?

I am shocked, shocked that you would use that tone with me. 

If you would re-read my post, I talked about three things: 

(1) SunPower's no longer supporting the WEEB clip technology and regressing
to the ILSCO GBL-4DBT. 

You are right about the insertion of the star washer between the lug and
module frame. I wonder what SP's response to that might be...

(2) As for SP's comment that they pulled the WEEB clip, "due to UL testing
changes". Does anyone close enough to the situation know what this means?

(3) I never mentioned the SP IFF clip. I mentioned the Tyco SolKlip. 

SP mentions the IFF in their literature but do not offer it to their dealers
(as far as I know), and I haven't been able to find it yet in their product
literature, except for a small low-resolution image. I assumed that the Tyco
SolKlip was a different component -- however it may be similar or may be
rebranded by SP as the IFF -- I don't know.

Bonding PV arrays and their supporting structures is complicated subject and
in my experience is one of the more frequently examined aspects of PV
installations by inspectors (along with bonding and grounding the other
components). So it would seem to be an apt subject for discussion by those
of us actively installing PV systems subject to inspection by the AHJ.

- Peter 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 8:50 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Cc: 'Christopher Flueckiger'; Tim Zgonena
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason

Peter,

Be a little more careful in your choice of subjects. You are talking about
the SunPower IFF clip. I have not heard this story, but I don't doubt it.
There have been significant changes at UL and ETL, the two largest listers
of PV modules, in the area of evaluating grounding equipment for PV modules.

Unfortunately, the shift to overly conservative approaches to module
grounding has caused huge problems with field installations. To make matters
worse, installation manuals from PV modules have been required to get
extremely specific about the only methods allowed to ground and bond the
module frames. This conservative approach has shut the door on many methods
that are far superior to the methods shown, because of the cost of
evaluating these products or due to lack of cooperation between UL and ETL.

Finally, many of the module manufacturer's installation manuals, the ones we
are supposed to believe, actually violate the listings of the products they
recommend. The ILSCO GBL-4DBT lay-in lug is the most famous example of these
mistakes. Several prominent installation manuals state that a stainless
starwasher must be installed under ILSCO lug. Although this will work, it is
a violation of the listing of the lug. Yet it is in the installation manual
and it is one of only a very few options--and it is wrong. What are we to
think of this whole situation? It is out of control and messed up.

The problem lies in the poorly worded UL1703 that has not been updated in
this area since the changes in application of the standard started some 3 or
4 years ago. There have been several attempts to get this problem resolved,
but the attempts have not made it to fruition. There is a new movement afoot
to deal with this once and for all, but I'm still a little skeptical.

Bill.

-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Parrish
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 1:49 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB

We were informed a while ago that SunPower no longer "supports" their
version of the WEEB clip "due to UL testing changes." (unspecified) and
appears to have regressed to the ILSCO GBL-4DBT lugs with SS star washers,
lock washer, nut and specific torque requirements.

Most people I have spoken with feel that the lug approach, though a
competent means of bonding PV modules, is awkward and time consuming,
compared to the WEEB clips.

What happened wrt UL testing and how is CSA listing affected?

I seem to remember a video showing a conventional lug-based bond fail under
test as par of a WEEB promo. I hope I can find it and take a look at it
again.

There also is a Tyco SolKlip that SunPower is apparently looking at but no
word yet from SP, and it is not clear that the SolKlip has been affected by
"UL testing changes".

Any info on the UL testing changes would be much appreciated.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish at calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

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