[RE-wrenches] Fwd: Outback Grid Problems
R Ray Walters
ray at solarray.com
Mon Apr 5 08:34:22 PDT 2010
Here's the latest comments from my customer on this. Seems to be just a problem under reduced array output.
Thanks again for everybody's valuable input.
R. Walters
ray at solarray.com
Solar Engineer
Begin forwarded message:
> From: "Roger L. Johnson" <rogerjohnson at itltd.com>
> Date: April 5, 2010 9:02:03 AM MDT
> To: Ray Walters <ray at solarray.com>
> Cc: Andy O'Reilly <andy at positiveenergysolar.com>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Grid Problems
>
> Ray – I appreciate all the comments and recommendations relative to the grid voltage parameters. However, in my opinion, there is no data to support the contention that this is a source of the FX BULK CHARGING behavior. My reasons for coming to this conclusion are the following:
>
> After a week and a half of careful monitoring, I have not seen any grid input/output voltage which varies from 123 +1 VAC.
> No. 1 has been the case under all current conditions, ranging from heavy house load use to sell mode currents as high as 10 aac.
> We have never seen a “STOP SELL” code which indicates over or under limit VAC.
>
> We have now had over a week of consecutive days of NO SNOW LOAD, that is to say, the arrays have been clear every morning. We start each morning with a battery voltage of 25.6 which, as the first sun falls on the arrays, quickly moves up to the FLOAT level and the new array CC’s go into GT MODE and the systems starts selling. The system sells consistently depending on cloud cover and stops selling at the end of the day (sunset). The STOP SELL code at the end of the day is No. 8 or SAVE COMMAND (per the MATE manual).
>
> Yesterday (Sunday), we generated 31 kWH off the arrays and sold 5 kWH back to KCE over the 24 hour period. We had a fairly heavy “house load” yesterday since we pumped the deep well for about 2 hours. This morning, we started selling at 0815 hours and expect to be selling throughout the day.
>
> I took the time to go over my daily logs on the system since the “turn on” in December. The issue associated with the BULK CHARGING CYCLE seems to always have been associated with heavy snow load and the slow melt off during the following days. This takes us back to the question that OutBack seems to have trouble answering: What are the conditions (parameter values) that FX uses to kick the system into a day long BULK CHARGING CYCLE? During the times when I experienced this behavior, I saw STOP SELL CODES of 7,8, and 10. Again we have never seen code No. 3, VAC over voltage. If we knew this information, we might very well be able to understand the behavior.
>
> In summary, I do not think we have a system issue as much as I think we have a vendor issue (not willing to disclose needed info). I suggest that I continue to monitor the system on a daily basis and I will let you know if we experience anything interesting. I do think it is worthwhile for you to continue to obtain the information relative to the FX BULK CHARGING criteria from OutBack.
>
> RLJ
>
>
> on 4/4/10 10:53 PM, Ray Walters at ray at solarray.com wrote:
>
>> Here's something else that would be easy to try, and wouldn't hurt anything.
>>
>> R. Walters
>> ray at solarray.com
>> Solar Engineer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>>> From: "Steve Higgins" <shiggins at outbackpower.com>
>>> Date: April 4, 2010 10:02:43 AM MDT
>>> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Grid Problems
>>> Reply-To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>>
>>> Not that I'm aware of... We just use it as a quick fix for those customers with a less than perfect grid connection. Unfortunately with some grid connections even this doesn't fix the problem.
>>>
>>> It Open the voltage window from 108 to 132 and frequency to +/- 2 Hz.
>>>
>>> It would be nice to know what the disconnect, or stop sell reason is... it would give us a better understanding of what is going on.
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve Higgins.
>>> Sr Application Engineer.
>>> Sub-Saharan Africa Business Dev Mgr.
>>> Outback Power Systems.
>>> 19009 62nd Ave Ne
>>> Arlington Wa 98223
>>> 360-618-4313
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of penobscotsolar at midmaine.com
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 8:26 AM
>>> To: RE-wrenches
>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Grid Problems
>>>
>>> That's a great tip Steve. Is there a downside to changing this setting?
>>>
>>> Daryl
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ray,
>>>>
>>>> If you go to the Status FX Sell menu what is the disconnect reason when
>>>> it does this?
>>>>
>>>> Also have you set the Grid Tie Authority from IEEE to User, when
>>>> customers are all the way out at the end of the line sometimes the grid
>>>> isn't as pretty and UL1741 and 1547 require so if the Grid Tie Authority
>>>> is IEEE the inverter can disconnect prematurely. Changing this to User
>>>> will open up the disconnect windows a bit so you don't disconnect
>>>> prematurely.
>>>>
>>>> Steve Higgins.
>>>> Sr Application Engineer.
>>>> Sub-Saharan Africa Business Dev Mgr.
>>>> Outback Power Systems.
>>>> 19009 62nd Ave Ne
>>>> Arlington Wa 98223
>>>> 360-618-4313
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray
>>>> Walters
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 11:54 AM
>>>> To: RE-wrenches
>>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Grid Problems
>>>>
>>>> I considered that there could be something happening due to the grid, as
>>>> this guy is way out on the end of the line going into his own utility
>>>> transformer.
>>>> But then the inverter should show a fault light, and it should try back
>>>> again, once the grid voltage drops.
>>>> Instead it initiates a full charge cycle and will not connect till the
>>>> next day.
>>>>
>>>> R. Walters
>>>> ray at solarray.com
>>>> Solar Engineer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 30, 2010, at 10:57 AM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> HI Ray,
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you checked the grid voltage to see if there is variation during
>>>> the day which would be enough to kick the inverters out of connection?
>>>>>
>>>>> Brian Teitelbaum
>>>>> AEE Solar
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray
>>>> Walters
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:43 AM
>>>>> To: RE-wrenches
>>>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Grid Problems
>>>>>
>>>>> We currently have a Grid Tie system with a pair of Outback inverters
>>>> that are regularly dropping out of sell mode, and letting the arrays
>>>> spend all day charging the battery bank.
>>>>> It seems to do this several times a week, and the customer is losing
>>>> substantial production, and gassing the batteries too much.
>>>>> It will reset itself the next day, or the customer resets it by
>>>> turning off the inverters manually.
>>>>> The system is 24 v, with an old array of 1800 watts running through 2
>>>> FM60s, and a new array of 2800 watts running through another pair of
>>>> FM60s.
>>>>> The battery bank is HUP about 4100 Ah @ 24 v (3 strings of 1375 Ah
>>>> each) Big battery, I know, but the customer is an electrical engineer,
>>>> who wanted maximum storage capacity.
>>>>>
>>>>> Outback tech support has not resolved the issue, and this has turned
>>>> into several service calls, and customer frustration.
>>>>> We've tried running the controllers through the HUB, and also
>>>> independently, and that doesn't make a difference.
>>>>> I have numerous Outback GT installs dating back to 2003, and have
>>>> never had a problem like this.
>>>>> Any help or advice would as always be greatly appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you in advance fellow Wrenches,
>>>>>
>>>>> R. Walters
>>>>> ray at solarray.com
>>>>> Solar Engineer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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