[RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?

boB Gudgel boB at midnitesolar.com
Fri Feb 5 22:33:53 PST 2010 

Michael Gullo wrote:
> Logan,
>
> Wow! Somehow you grossly misinterpreted my intentions on this subject. 
> I meant no disrespect to headache sufferers as I too have had 
> migraines for over 40 years although they are well controlled now. My 
> "long dictations of "other reasons" and "placebo effect" are based on 
> 30+ years of diagnosing and treating comorbid primary and secondary 
> headache disorders which represents tens of thousands of patient 
> visits. The point of my addition to his thread was to bring attention 
> to the more likely causes of this affliction. Many people view this 
> listserve and the people on it as experts. Indeed many are experts in 
> the solar and electrical contracting industry. They bring their vast 
> experience to bear and I listen closely. However, when I saw 
> statements such as "it's definitely sound" or "it's EMF" and labels 
> like "psychosomatic" surfacing, it was time to slow the inverter train 
> down. I and I'm sure many others have been asked at a sales 
> presentation if there are any ill medical effects from inverters. 
> Until there is a peer-reviewed, randomized, double-blind repeatable 
> study to confirm this, the answer is NO. A statement such as  "I will 
> say that inverters are a trigger" must be prefaced by "In my opinion", 
> otherwise viewers here may misinterpret it as factual. I am open to 
> the idea that people can be sensitized to a myriad of triggers but 
> more study is needed. I wish there were simple solutions to chronic 
> head pain disorders.
>
> Mike
> Dr. Michael Gullo
> Solar Solutions LLC
OK Mike.....    I hear ya !   You bring up great points.

I will rephrase my opinion on this to say,  IF it IS the inverter 
triggering the headaches........ It's the sound.
Otherwise, I owe you a dollar.   OK, I will shut up now.

boB





>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com>
> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 4:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
>
>
>> Hi Ron
>>
>> I have been following this thread closely to see what people think about
>> Migraines. As a Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) survivor and Migraine
>> sufferer I understand your employees pain! I  love the long 
>> dictations of
>> "Other Reasons" for the Migraine and talk of placebo effect. 
>> Migraines are
>> no joke, and no fun.
>>
>> Triggers for Migraines can be many things, strong perfumes are a good 
>> one
>> for me.
>> But I will say that inverters are a trigger also. I have 3 different
>> inverters in my power room. I do not have problems with the Magnum or
>> Outbacks, But the new Bergey 10Kw inverter will set me off when it is
>> running at a specific power level with me working close by. I think in
>> that inverter it is the inductors.
>>
>> I find that is is not the "Sound" but a frequency (non-sound) harmonic
>> that is radiated.  I am sure you can use a scope to see this, but a easy
>> way to understand this is to lightly hold a large flat NEO magnet in 
>> your
>> cupped hand. Then place your hand close to the DC power feed cables
>> running from the battery bank to your inverter. The magnet will vibrate
>> (resonate) at that inverters frequency. I find that when charging 
>> from the
>> inverter or inverting heavy from the battery you can have large 
>> amounts of
>> harmonics, and it is interesting to see how much the magnet vibrates in
>> your hand.
>>
>> The suggestion of twisting the cables really helps reduce this!
>>
>> On a side note the Magnum inverter has different harmonics than the 
>> Outbacks.
>>
>> So, do you have a place that the employee can move to that is not 
>> near the
>> inverter?
>> I think that is the simple solution.
>>
>> Logan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Ron Young wrote:
>>>> Mike,
>>>>
>>>> Some interesting points, thank you. I would have attributed the
>>>> problem to several of the mentioned issues, medications (HRT),
>>>> clenching, tension... But what happened a couple of days ago makes me
>>>> wonder. I turned on the inverter without her knowledge and within two
>>>> minutes she was complaining and asked me if it was on. It was right at
>>>> quitting time and she was out of the environment within 7-8 minutes
>>>> but the next day she complained that she had a "migraine" that night.
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>
>>> Yep, it's gotta be the sound.  I'm 95+% sure...
>>>
>>>    If you want to try to tweak things, a decent microphone running into
>>> a higher sample
>>> rate A/D on a laptop with  (96 kHz or 192 kHz) and a program with
>>> spectrum analyzer can help
>>> to adjust things to possibly quiet it down some.  Maybe if you know
>>> someone into audio you could
>>> have them come over and bring their goodies to help you sorta "see" the
>>> sound in the room.
>>>
>>> Then, you could try tweaking things lik, tightening screws and putting
>>> in a baffle or
>>> something until that 20 kHz frequency spike comes down, say, 10 or 20+
>>> dB or so.
>>>
>>> Might just work.  But, then again.....
>>> boB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4-Feb-10, at 6:41 PM, Ron Young wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> forwarded from earth2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>
>>>>>> *From: *"Michael Gullo" <mgullo3 at comcast.net
>>>>>> <mailto:mgullo3 at comcast.net>>
>>>>>> *Date: *February 4, 2010 5:47:56 PM PST (CA)
>>>>>> *To: *"RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>>> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>>>>>> *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
>>>>>> **Reply-To: *RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>>> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Ron and the group,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The attribution of negative health effects to exposure to
>>>>>> electromagnetic fields or activated electric equipment has not been
>>>>>> confirmed in random double-blind provocation studies involving
>>>>>> persons reporting hypersensitivity to electricity. Before we accuse
>>>>>> are hard-working inverters, let's look at some facts. There are 13
>>>>>> different categories of headaches which are divided into over 129
>>>>>> sub-types. Many people call every headache they experience as
>>>>>> migraine when in fact there are specific inclusion criteria to make
>>>>>> diagnosis of migraine. The "rubber band tightening around my head"
>>>>>> is a classic symptom of tension-type headache. Given a mid 50's
>>>>>> female, there are more likely one or more provoking factors:
>>>>>> medications, sleep pattern, hormonal replacement therapy, stress
>>>>>> (clenching, TMJ), smoker, foods (aged cheese, alcohol, caffeine,
>>>>>> chocolate, dairy products, MSGs, etc). Does she work at a computer
>>>>>> using a chair with no arms and no lower back support with a monitor
>>>>>> slightly higher than eye level? This is an extremely common scenario
>>>>>> in which the employee comes to work symptom-free and by 12 or 1:00
>>>>>> develops a headache or neck ache. If she really wants some answers,
>>>>>> she will need to keep a headache diary for several weeks and seek
>>>>>> professional help. You could cycle the inverter on/off to see if
>>>>>> there is a direct correlation between the incidence of the headaches
>>>>>> and runtime of the inverter. BTW, the placebo effect, as mentioned
>>>>>> in other emails, is between 40-60% effective at resolving symptoms.
>>>>>> Hope this helps a bit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>> Michael Gullo
>>>>>> Solar Solutions LLC
>>>>>> Marlton, NJ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer T
>>>>>> Diplomate American Board of Orofacial Pain
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Young"
>>>>>> <solareagle at solareagle.com <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>>
>>>>>> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>>> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:19 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob,
>>>>>>> Not a customer, an employee who works for me. She is mid 50's and
>>>>>>> has very good hearing. You may be right about sound. I also think
>>>>>>> there's  a significant portion of psychosomatic in the mix but I
>>>>>>> wanted to find  out if there were other instances of people
>>>>>>> experiencing distress from inverter operation just to rule out the
>>>>>>> possibility -or take it into account.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know that some people are becoming more sensitive to
>>>>>>> environmental influences but this inverter is quiet, just the usual
>>>>>>> fan sound occasionally. I used to be able to hear the sound of an
>>>>>>> ultrasonic  alarm system back when I was in my 20's & 30's - now I
>>>>>>> just hear  ringing in my ears.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ron
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4-Feb-10, at 1:30 AM, boB Gudgel wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dan Fink said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "That's a tricky situation. There are only two possibilities
>>>>>>>> for  what's causing the problem; sound or electromagnetic 
>>>>>>>> radiation"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm betting that it's sound.  Remember how you could
>>>>>>>> hear  televisions singing
>>>>>>>> away at 15 kHz ??  That still gives some people headaches.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How old is this customer ??   I'm guessing he's young because
>>>>>>>> it's  most likely because he
>>>>>>>> can hear the inverter switching.    We just can't normally
>>>>>>>> hear  them.... The FX/VFX
>>>>>>>> inverters switch at around 20 kHz which some people can still
>>>>>>>> hear. Especially younger ones
>>>>>>>> with better hearing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's probably the transformer windings and iron acting as a
>>>>>>>> speaker/ transducer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> High frequencies are very directional so will usually respond
>>>>>>>> well  to a thin wall  of
>>>>>>>> padding between inverter and the rest of the inside of the house
>>>>>>>> or cabin.
>>>>>>>> That should help reduce the acoustical output.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> boB
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dan Fink wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Joel --
>>>>>>>>> Good points. In a recent newspaper article in Boulder, CO about a
>>>>>>>>> really bad PV install, the direct grid tie inverter was
>>>>>>>>> mounted  right on the outside of the wall from the homeowner's
>>>>>>>>> bed. They  finally had to have it moved--mostly because of
>>>>>>>>> buzzing, but EMF  was a concern too. It was basically less than a
>>>>>>>>> foot from the guy's  pillow.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, I forgot to mention that there are fairly inexpensive
>>>>>>>>> EMF  meters available from the same places that sell DIY
>>>>>>>>> shielding  materials.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The biggest source of EMF at *my* house is actually the E-Meter
>>>>>>>>> measuring amp-hours. It even interferes with my handheld ham
>>>>>>>>> and  fire department radio FM communications on 2 meter.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> DAN FINK
>>>>>>>>> Renewable Energy Consultant
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Joel Davidson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Ron,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Electromagnetic fields are produced any time you have
>>>>>>>>>> current  flowing through wire. They are low frequency waves that
>>>>>>>>>> drop off  rapidly proportional to the distance from the source.
>>>>>>>>>> Inverters,  transformers, fluorescent light ballasts, motors,
>>>>>>>>>> clock radios,  power blocks, microwave ovens, kilowatt hour
>>>>>>>>>> meters, service  panels all emit EMF. There is no
>>>>>>>>>> practical way to block EMF.  It passes through almost everything
>>>>>>>>>> including walls and even lead. There is no U.S. safety
>>>>>>>>>> standard  for EMF. Some say 8 milligauss or more is dangerous
>>>>>>>>>> and 2.5  milligauss or less is safe.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I went through our home about 10 years ago using a
>>>>>>>>>> borrowed  milligauss meter (thanks David Katz). Our utility
>>>>>>>>>> meter service  had significant EMF, but that was not a problem
>>>>>>>>>> since it is  mounted on an outside wall and there is a closet
>>>>>>>>>> between the  living space and the meter. The EMF had fallen to
>>>>>>>>>> below 2  milligauss between the wall and the closet door. The
>>>>>>>>>> bedroom clock  radio was the second largest EMF source in our
>>>>>>>>>> home. Moving the  clock 1 foot away from the bed to the other
>>>>>>>>>> side of the night  stand brought the EMF levels under 2
>>>>>>>>>> milligauss. Our SW4048 inverter emitted a field that fell to a
>>>>>>>>>> safe level 2 feet from the inverter.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I tell people not to put their bed against the wall where their
>>>>>>>>>> utility service panel or inverter is mounted. I also tell
>>>>>>>>>> them  that the Japanese did a 2 year study of school children
>>>>>>>>>> riding the  Tokyo subway (big EMF emitter) and found that there
>>>>>>>>>> was no danger.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Some sounds that most of us take for granted can cause physical
>>>>>>>>>> discomfort and even pain. SW4048 and other transformer and
>>>>>>>>>> electrical and electronic buzzing can be annoying. Also certain
>>>>>>>>>> wavelengths and intensities of light can cause pain and injury.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Joel Davidson
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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