[RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?

Fri Feb 5 22:16:36 PST 2010

Logan,

Wow! Somehow you grossly misinterpreted my intentions on this subject. I 
meant no disrespect to headache sufferers as I too have had migraines for 
over 40 years although they are well controlled now. My "long dictations of 
"other reasons" and "placebo effect" are based on 30+ years of diagnosing 
and treating comorbid primary and secondary headache disorders which 
represents tens of thousands of patient visits. The point of my addition to 
his thread was to bring attention to the more likely causes of this 
affliction. Many people view this listserve and the people on it as experts. 
Indeed many are experts in the solar and electrical contracting industry. 
They bring their vast experience to bear and I listen closely. However, when 
I saw statements such as "it's definitely sound" or "it's EMF" and labels 
like "psychosomatic" surfacing, it was time to slow the inverter train down. 
I and I'm sure many others have been asked at a sales presentation if there 
are any ill medical effects from inverters. Until there is a peer-reviewed, 
randomized, double-blind repeatable study to confirm this, the answer is NO. 
A statement such as  "I will say that inverters are a trigger" must be 
prefaced by "In my opinion", otherwise viewers here may misinterpret it as 
factual. I am open to the idea that people can be sensitized to a myriad of 
triggers but more study is needed. I wish there were simple solutions to 
chronic head pain disorders.

Mike
Dr. Michael Gullo
Solar Solutions LLC

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com>
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?

> Hi Ron
>
> I have been following this thread closely to see what people think about
> Migraines. As a Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) survivor and Migraine
> sufferer I understand your employees pain! I  love the long dictations of
> "Other Reasons" for the Migraine and talk of placebo effect. Migraines are
> no joke, and no fun.
>
> Triggers for Migraines can be many things, strong perfumes are a good one
> for me.
> But I will say that inverters are a trigger also. I have 3 different
> inverters in my power room. I do not have problems with the Magnum or
> Outbacks, But the new Bergey 10Kw inverter will set me off when it is
> running at a specific power level with me working close by. I think in
> that inverter it is the inductors.
>
> I find that is is not the "Sound" but a frequency (non-sound) harmonic
> that is radiated.  I am sure you can use a scope to see this, but a easy
> way to understand this is to lightly hold a large flat NEO magnet in your
> cupped hand. Then place your hand close to the DC power feed cables
> running from the battery bank to your inverter. The magnet will vibrate
> (resonate) at that inverters frequency. I find that when charging from the
> inverter or inverting heavy from the battery you can have large amounts of
> harmonics, and it is interesting to see how much the magnet vibrates in
> your hand.
>
> The suggestion of twisting the cables really helps reduce this!
>
> On a side note the Magnum inverter has different harmonics than the 
> Outbacks.
>
> So, do you have a place that the employee can move to that is not near the
> inverter?
> I think that is the simple solution.
>
> Logan
>
>
>
>
>> Ron Young wrote:
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> Some interesting points, thank you. I would have attributed the
>>> problem to several of the mentioned issues, medications (HRT),
>>> clenching, tension... But what happened a couple of days ago makes me
>>> wonder. I turned on the inverter without her knowledge and within two
>>> minutes she was complaining and asked me if it was on. It was right at
>>> quitting time and she was out of the environment within 7-8 minutes
>>> but the next day she complained that she had a "migraine" that night.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>
>> Yep, it's gotta be the sound.  I'm 95+% sure...
>>
>>    If you want to try to tweak things, a decent microphone running into
>> a higher sample
>> rate A/D on a laptop with  (96 kHz or 192 kHz) and a program with
>> spectrum analyzer can help
>> to adjust things to possibly quiet it down some.  Maybe if you know
>> someone into audio you could
>> have them come over and bring their goodies to help you sorta "see" the
>> sound in the room.
>>
>> Then, you could try tweaking things lik, tightening screws and putting
>> in a baffle or
>> something until that 20 kHz frequency spike comes down, say, 10 or 20+
>> dB or so.
>>
>> Might just work.  But, then again.....
>> boB
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On 4-Feb-10, at 6:41 PM, Ron Young wrote:
>>>
>>>> forwarded from earth2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>
>>>>> *From: *"Michael Gullo" <mgullo3 at comcast.net
>>>>> <mailto:mgullo3 at comcast.net>>
>>>>> *Date: *February 4, 2010 5:47:56 PM PST (CA)
>>>>> *To: *"RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>>>>> *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
>>>>> **Reply-To: *RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ron and the group,
>>>>>
>>>>> The attribution of negative health effects to exposure to
>>>>> electromagnetic fields or activated electric equipment has not been
>>>>> confirmed in random double-blind provocation studies involving
>>>>> persons reporting hypersensitivity to electricity. Before we accuse
>>>>> are hard-working inverters, let's look at some facts. There are 13
>>>>> different categories of headaches which are divided into over 129
>>>>> sub-types. Many people call every headache they experience as
>>>>> migraine when in fact there are specific inclusion criteria to make
>>>>> diagnosis of migraine. The "rubber band tightening around my head"
>>>>> is a classic symptom of tension-type headache. Given a mid 50's
>>>>> female, there are more likely one or more provoking factors:
>>>>> medications, sleep pattern, hormonal replacement therapy, stress
>>>>> (clenching, TMJ), smoker, foods (aged cheese, alcohol, caffeine,
>>>>> chocolate, dairy products, MSGs, etc). Does she work at a computer
>>>>> using a chair with no arms and no lower back support with a monitor
>>>>> slightly higher than eye level? This is an extremely common scenario
>>>>> in which the employee comes to work symptom-free and by 12 or 1:00
>>>>> develops a headache or neck ache. If she really wants some answers,
>>>>> she will need to keep a headache diary for several weeks and seek
>>>>> professional help. You could cycle the inverter on/off to see if
>>>>> there is a direct correlation between the incidence of the headaches
>>>>> and runtime of the inverter. BTW, the placebo effect, as mentioned
>>>>> in other emails, is between 40-60% effective at resolving symptoms.
>>>>> Hope this helps a bit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>> Michael Gullo
>>>>> Solar Solutions LLC
>>>>> Marlton, NJ
>>>>>
>>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer T
>>>>> Diplomate American Board of Orofacial Pain
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Young"
>>>>> <solareagle at solareagle.com <mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com>>
>>>>> To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>> <mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:19 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter causing migraine?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob,
>>>>>> Not a customer, an employee who works for me. She is mid 50's and
>>>>>> has very good hearing. You may be right about sound. I also think
>>>>>> there's  a significant portion of psychosomatic in the mix but I
>>>>>> wanted to find  out if there were other instances of people
>>>>>> experiencing distress from inverter operation just to rule out the
>>>>>> possibility -or take it into account.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know that some people are becoming more sensitive to
>>>>>> environmental influences but this inverter is quiet, just the usual
>>>>>> fan sound occasionally. I used to be able to hear the sound of an
>>>>>> ultrasonic  alarm system back when I was in my 20's & 30's - now I
>>>>>> just hear  ringing in my ears.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ron
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4-Feb-10, at 1:30 AM, boB Gudgel wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan Fink said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "That's a tricky situation. There are only two possibilities
>>>>>>> for  what's causing the problem; sound or electromagnetic radiation"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm betting that it's sound.  Remember how you could
>>>>>>> hear  televisions singing
>>>>>>> away at 15 kHz ??  That still gives some people headaches.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How old is this customer ??   I'm guessing he's young because
>>>>>>> it's  most likely because he
>>>>>>> can hear the inverter switching.    We just can't normally
>>>>>>> hear  them.... The FX/VFX
>>>>>>> inverters switch at around 20 kHz which some people can still
>>>>>>> hear. Especially younger ones
>>>>>>> with better hearing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's probably the transformer windings and iron acting as a
>>>>>>> speaker/ transducer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> High frequencies are very directional so will usually respond
>>>>>>> well  to a thin wall  of
>>>>>>> padding between inverter and the rest of the inside of the house
>>>>>>> or cabin.
>>>>>>> That should help reduce the acoustical output.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> boB
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan Fink wrote:
>>>>>>>> Joel --
>>>>>>>> Good points. In a recent newspaper article in Boulder, CO about a
>>>>>>>> really bad PV install, the direct grid tie inverter was
>>>>>>>> mounted  right on the outside of the wall from the homeowner's
>>>>>>>> bed. They  finally had to have it moved--mostly because of
>>>>>>>> buzzing, but EMF  was a concern too. It was basically less than a
>>>>>>>> foot from the guy's  pillow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, I forgot to mention that there are fairly inexpensive
>>>>>>>> EMF  meters available from the same places that sell DIY
>>>>>>>> shielding  materials.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The biggest source of EMF at *my* house is actually the E-Meter
>>>>>>>> measuring amp-hours. It even interferes with my handheld ham
>>>>>>>> and  fire department radio FM communications on 2 meter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> DAN FINK
>>>>>>>> Renewable Energy Consultant
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joel Davidson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Ron,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Electromagnetic fields are produced any time you have
>>>>>>>>> current  flowing through wire. They are low frequency waves that
>>>>>>>>> drop off  rapidly proportional to the distance from the source.
>>>>>>>>> Inverters,  transformers, fluorescent light ballasts, motors,
>>>>>>>>> clock radios,  power blocks, microwave ovens, kilowatt hour
>>>>>>>>> meters, service  panels all emit EMF. There is no
>>>>>>>>> practical way to block EMF.  It passes through almost everything
>>>>>>>>> including walls and even lead. There is no U.S. safety
>>>>>>>>> standard  for EMF. Some say 8 milligauss or more is dangerous
>>>>>>>>> and 2.5  milligauss or less is safe.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I went through our home about 10 years ago using a
>>>>>>>>> borrowed  milligauss meter (thanks David Katz). Our utility
>>>>>>>>> meter service  had significant EMF, but that was not a problem
>>>>>>>>> since it is  mounted on an outside wall and there is a closet
>>>>>>>>> between the  living space and the meter. The EMF had fallen to
>>>>>>>>> below 2  milligauss between the wall and the closet door. The
>>>>>>>>> bedroom clock  radio was the second largest EMF source in our
>>>>>>>>> home. Moving the  clock 1 foot away from the bed to the other
>>>>>>>>> side of the night  stand brought the EMF levels under 2
>>>>>>>>> milligauss. Our SW4048 inverter emitted a field that fell to a
>>>>>>>>> safe level 2 feet from the inverter.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I tell people not to put their bed against the wall where their
>>>>>>>>> utility service panel or inverter is mounted. I also tell
>>>>>>>>> them  that the Japanese did a 2 year study of school children
>>>>>>>>> riding the  Tokyo subway (big EMF emitter) and found that there
>>>>>>>>> was no danger.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some sounds that most of us take for granted can cause physical
>>>>>>>>> discomfort and even pain. SW4048 and other transformer and
>>>>>>>>> electrical and electronic buzzing can be annoying. Also certain
>>>>>>>>> wavelengths and intensities of light can cause pain and injury.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Joel Davidson
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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