[RE-wrenches] Solar and pumped hydro

Tue Aug 25 09:37:44 PDT 2009

I'd had this question a while ago, and thought I'd send a few links I 
found last year in case they're helpful for anyone.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2008/03/pumped-storage-to-back-up-renewable-energy-51745
from that page:
1994 IEEE Study on reservoir size requirements (sorry, I'm not an IEEE 
member so I can't send this paper your way)
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=/iel1/59/7653/00317595.pdf?arnumber=317595

2005 Power and Technology Magazine article on required site indices for 
pumped storage
http://www.springerlink.com/content/q250m7930q5407w0/

D. Manolakos, G. Papadakis, D. Papantonis and S. Kyritsis; A stand-alone
photovoltaic power system for remote villages using pumped water energy 
storage; Energy, Volume 29, Issue 1, January 2004, Pages 57-69.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V2S-49PRFMP-
7&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1
&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=9d6b2fba77001e9649de77a59f616812

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar and pumped hydro
From: Mark Dickson <Mark at OasisMontana.com>
To: 'RE-wrenches' <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: 2009/8/25 09:41

> Keith,
> 
> This has been a novel idea that I have heard many times lately, but it 
> just does not pencil out--maybe on the utility scale, but not on the 
> micro-hydro scale.
> 
> Take for instance my micro-hydro scenario.  I have a 75’ head with a 
> Stream Engine at the bottom with two ½” nozzles. When both nozzles are 
> fully open I have about 80gpm flowing through the system.  This results 
> in ~670 watts before wire, battery and inverter losses.
> 
>  
> 
> Now take away my stream and design a solar pump system.  I could put in 
> a Lorentz PS1800 system with a 1600watt array that would pump about 
> 15,000 gallons/day (non-tracked) in the summer up the 75’ for about 
> $12,000. 
> 
>  
> 
> 15,000gallons of water (not taking evaporation into consideration) would 
> then run my turbine for 3.1hours, producing only 2,077 watts!
> 
>  
> 
> My four L16s that I use as a “buffer” have more storage than that.
> 
>  
> 
> I think our best bet it to hold off for some reasonable flow-batteries 
> or the fuel cell.
> 
>  
> 
> Best regards,
> 
>  
> 
> Mark Dickson
> 
> Oasis Montana Inc.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *David 
> Palumbo
> *Sent:* Monday, August 24, 2009 7:44 PM
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches'
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar and pumped hydro
> 
>  
> 
> Hi Keith,
> 
>  
> 
> That is my place. Hydro pond is both spring fed and fed by a small 
> seasonal brook, no pumping.
> 
>  
> 
> I figure approximately  50% to55% efficiency for a high head micro-hydro 
> turbine (Harris PM), not including, wire, batteries and inverter losses. 
> I do not know the efficiency of larger turbines. Check with Canyon 
> Industries (they advertise in Home Power). I’ve heard that they are 
> significantly higher in efficiency (before transmission losses).
> 
>  
> 
> I have heard that at least one larger scale hydro facility in NY State 
> pumps back to the reservoir overnight at off peak rates, then releases 
> generation water during peak rate periods. Also, Hydro Quebec buys off 
> peak power from the U.S. grid when it’s dirt cheap to power Montreal 
> overnight. This saves some of their own water power for selling  to  the 
> States during peak periods. A nice money making deal for Quebec. So, 
> your idea is worth thinking about for regions such as Hawaii I believe.
> 
>  
> 
> Dave
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Keith 
> Cronin
> *Sent:* Monday, August 24, 2009 2:43 PM
> *To:* RE-Wrenches
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Solar and pumped hydro
> 
>  
> 
> Hi
> 
> Have any of you considered using PV to pump water to a holding area and 
> releasing it and capturing the kinetic energy via a pelton wheel/hydro?
> 
> If so, what do we think are the efficiencies and value of doing such a 
> project are? Meaning, back of the napkin, PV is + - 77% efficient, minus 
> "x" to pump the water to "x" elevation and the net result of the hydro = 
> "____% efficient"
> 
> It would be using the reservoir as the battery.
> 
> There is approximately 300' of elevation from the PV system and water 
> source to the reservoir area.
> 
> I recall about 15 years ago, I visited a member on this lists Vermont 
> home and he had a pond at the top of his property, but i don't recall 
> how the source got to the reservoir? Might have been naturally fed?
> 
> Anyway, the premise is, as grid access becomes more difficult to do, as 
> the utility infrastructure gets saturated, what are our options for 
> folks that want PV, but are limited in how much they are allowed to 
> connect to the grid, without an interconnection study by a 3rd party to 
> increase the comfort of the utility to have more non firm resources on 
> their grid. We are seeing this happen here now and I was wondering if 
> any of you have encountered this or are anticipating this in your areas?
> 
> Any suggestions, calcs, recommendations, feedback would be appreciated.
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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