[RE-wrenches] sealed revival

Tue Dec 1 06:35:52 PST 2009

Travis - I echo your results on the addition [per manufacturer's directions]
of distilled water and application of a deep re-charge [eq.] charge, I got 4
to 6 months on the 3 banks that we attempted to revive. If we think wet lead
acid batteries are a fragile chemical equation then sealed batteries are
even more fragile.

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc

www.solarwork.com

E - dana at solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

I will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Travis
Creswell
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:13 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!

A DC power supply would certainly be a lot easier to use. Lots of uses for
something like this once you've got it.

http://mastechpowersupply.com/variable-power-supply/switching-power-supply/m
astech-variable-power-supply-50v-20a-hy5020e-1000w/prod_20.html

You could also set up an MX60 (if you have one lying around) with 24v of
batteries on the PV side and use it to charge to the 12v battery.
Christopher Freitas is the one who told me and it worked great but don't go
above 24v nominal or might let the magic smoke out of the MX60.  Once you
get going you can rotate the batteries in such a way that you're load
testing the batteries while equalizing the 12v one.  Use your imagination
and prepared as casual observers will think your trying to build a perpetual
motion machine.

I have had some very similar experiences with sealed batteries and rarely
found that all the time and effort I put into testing them was worth it.
IE; batteries appeared to come back to life but most all died within 6
months after putting back into "normal" service no matter how closely I
watched them.  It was a lot of fun and quite educational though.  I've even
drilled out the cells caps, added just a bit of distilled water then
equalized them in effort to wet the dried out cells in a effort to try to
save the chronically overcharged sealed batteries.  I could get them to act
normal albeit at reduced capacity for about 6 months then they all died too.

Best,

Travis Creswell

Ozark Energy Services

  _____  

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Conrad
Geyser
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:01 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!

Thanks for the amazing responses everyone!

Larry, it sound as though the parameters below are a perfect match for your
average ~180 watt PV module in December sunlight wired back through a diode
to a test battery inside?  Does it matter if the process get's interrupted
by a few nights / cloudy days?  Do you have a preferred test approach?

Yeah, this bank represents a huge amount of resources; I want to make sure
it can't be saved.

Conrad

Cotuit Solar 

  _____  

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 11:17 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!

Conrad,

We have sold many Concord (Lifeline, Sun Xtender...) batteries over the
years. They are the best and half of our battery sales are Deka and Concord
AGM's.

When our mobile customers abuse their AGM batteries, I use an equalization
process that has a constant current and no voltage limit to restore them. I
am sure you have heard that you should never equalize an AMG battery. This
is not true but the process must be tightly controlled. I have done it many
times and the result is always to recover some or most capacity. 

Do one battery at a time.

1. Battery temp: 77 degrees (+/-5) and stable

2. Apply charge current limited to 5% of the 20hr rate. eg. 220 AH will be
11 amps. Do not regulate voltage!

3. Monitor temperature and voltage.

4(a) If temperature reaches 130F, stop the process. Start again when the
battery temperature has been lowered to room temperature.

4(b) When voltage reaches 2.6 vpc, continue charging for 4 hours. Voltage
may reach 3 vpc!!  Follow 4(a) about temp.

5. After this process, perform a capacity test. 

This has worked for me with chronically undercharged AGM's of all types. I
have never had one vent or go into thermal run away. At the price of these
batteries, it is worth the time to try if you have the power source and
time.

For reference this process is outlined in the Lifeline Technical manual,
page 20. http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf

Larry Crutcher

www.starlightsolar.com

larry at starlightsolar.com

(928) 941-1660

On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:48 PM, Conrad Geyser wrote:

In the vein of us on grid folks who's heads spin when the off grid folks
start talking about charge programming and gen set start up parameters.

I am servicing an orphaned 48 V off grid system that is only 1 1/2 years
old, with 40 Concorde Sun Extender batteries, which are for the most part,
shot (about half of them under 10V after a generator EQ charge).  I'm sure
the batteries have been abused at least after the point that someone lowered
the generator start voltage to 40V.  We're still doing fact finding on the
charge parameters for the PV and wind, but I'm wondering if there is anyone
that has an opinion on the Concorde batteries.

And at least at this point, I'm glad I had to study for some off grid
questions on the NABCEP test, not to mention the conversations on this list.
: >

Conrad

Cotuit Solar

  _____  

From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob-O
Schultze
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 9:59 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep - grid tie---Off grid

William,

Nice to meet you -however briefly- at the Solar Zoo in Anaheim.

If you don't see the value in being NABCEP certified, then you shouldn't
bother with it. If your state- as more than a few have- decides to recognize
it in some way that affects your pocket, then you'll likely change your mind
PDQ. I've personally gotten one or two jobs that I know about because I was
Certified and the other bidder was not, but our bids were very close in
price. Low-ballers, like head lice, are just a nasty fact of life.

While I generally agree with you on your point #2, it varies a lot state to
state. I'm licensed in CA and OR. While I understand the rules in CA are
changing, enforcement is, and has always been, a joke. In OR, you need a
4000 hour apprenticeship AND 256 hours of general electrical classroom time
to get a Renewable Energy license. A general journeyman license is twice
that. I've had inspectors come to our job site and check that everyone is
licensed. In OR, you don't lay hands on a wire without a license. Ever hear
of the like in CA? Maybe in the big cities, but nowhere else.

We're totally on the same page about the IBEW. If you understand that their
goal is total domination of the electrical trade everywhere, a lot of how
they operate makes sense. I'm a pro-Union kinda guy as a rule, but, like
religion, too much of a thing is way worse than none.

As to experience with EMT and the like, again it varies state to state and
certainly region to region. In this neck of the woods, if you can't bend an
offset or saddle bend, you are either a new apprentice or unemployed.

Best, Bob-O

On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:48 PM, William Miller wrote:

Friends:

I'd like to make two brief points on the training/NABCEP debate:

1. If I thought NABCEP certification would get me one more job I'd normally
lose to a low-ball bidder, I'd be inclined to sit for the test, but it
won't.

2. Most solar electric installers could not be considered electricians.
Until they learn the trade, they are not qualified to install the most basic
grid tie system.  Conversely, many electricians with the most basic
electrical skills think they know all that needs to be known to design and
install solar-electric.  Wrong again.

I don't support the IBEW concept of taking over the solar industry by force,
but I do respect their concept of actually encouraging well rounded
electrician's skills.  How many solar installers can actually lay an offset
into a stick of EMT?  Not many.  Most are glorified stereo installers,
plugging and praying.

Respectfully,

William Miller

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