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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Travis –
I echo your results on the addition [per manufacturer’s directions] of
distilled water and application of a deep re-charge [eq.] charge, I got 4 to 6
months on the 3 banks that we attempted to revive. If we think wet lead acid
batteries are a fragile chemical equation then sealed batteries are even more fragile.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#4F81BD'>Dana
Orzel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#4F81BD'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#4F81BD'>Great
Solar Works, Inc<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#4F81BD'>www.solarwork.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#4F81BD'>E
- dana@solarwork.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#4F81BD'>V
- 970.626.5253<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#4F81BD'>F
- 970.626.4140<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#4F81BD'>C
- 970.209.4076<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#4F81BD'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#4F81BD'>I
will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Travis
Creswell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>A DC power supply would certainly
be a lot easier to use. Lots of uses for something like this once you’ve
got it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><a
href="http://mastechpowersupply.com/variable-power-supply/switching-power-supply/mastech-variable-power-supply-50v-20a-hy5020e-1000w/prod_20.html">http://mastechpowersupply.com/variable-power-supply/switching-power-supply/mastech-variable-power-supply-50v-20a-hy5020e-1000w/prod_20.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>You could also set up an MX60 (if
you have one lying around) with 24v of batteries on the <u>PV side</u> and use
it to charge to the 12v battery. Christopher Freitas is the one who told
me and it worked great but don’t go above 24v nominal or might let the
magic smoke out of the MX60. Once you get going you can rotate the
batteries in such a way that you’re load testing the batteries while
equalizing the 12v one. Use your imagination and prepared as casual
observers will think your trying to build a perpetual motion machine.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>I have had some very similar
experiences with sealed batteries and rarely found that all the time and effort
I put into testing them was worth it. IE; batteries appeared to come back
to life but most all died within 6 months after putting back into
“normal” service no matter how closely I watched them. It was
a lot of fun and quite educational though. I’ve even drilled out
the cells caps, added just a bit of distilled water then equalized them in
effort to wet the dried out cells in a effort to try to save the chronically
overcharged sealed batteries. I could get them to act normal albeit at
reduced capacity for about 6 months then they all died too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Travis Creswell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Ozark Energy Services<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Conrad
Geyser<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Thanks for the amazing responses
everyone!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Larry, it sound as though the
parameters below are a perfect match for your average ~180 watt PV module in
December sunlight wired back through a diode to a test battery inside?
Does it matter if the process get’s interrupted by a few nights / cloudy
days? Do you have a preferred test approach?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Yeah, this bank represents a huge amount
of resources; I want to make sure it can’t be saved.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Conrad<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Cotuit Solar <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Larry
Crutcher, Starlight Solar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 30, 2009 11:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] concord batteries, EQUALIZE Them!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Conrad,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>We have sold many Concord
(Lifeline, Sun Xtender...) batteries over the years. They are the best and half
of our battery sales are Deka and Concord AGM's.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>When our mobile customers abuse
their AGM batteries, I use an equalization process that has a constant current
and no voltage limit to restore them. I am sure you have heard that you should
never equalize an AMG battery. This is not true but the process must be tightly
controlled. I have done it many times and the result is always to recover some
or most capacity. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Do one battery at a time.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>1. Battery temp: 77 degrees (+/-5)
and stable<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>2. Apply charge current limited to
5% of the 20hr rate. eg. 220 AH will be 11 amps. Do not regulate voltage!<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>3. Monitor temperature and voltage.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>4(a) If temperature reaches 130F,
stop the process. Start again when the battery temperature has been lowered to
room temperature.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>4(b) When voltage reaches 2.6 vpc,
continue charging for 4 hours. Voltage may reach 3 vpc!! Follow
4(a) about temp.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>5. After this process, perform a
capacity test. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>This has worked for me with
chronically undercharged AGM's of all types. I have never had one vent or
go into thermal run away. At the price of these batteries, it is worth the time
to try if you have the power source and time.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>For reference this process is
outlined in the Lifeline Technical manual, page 20. <a
href="http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf">http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Larry Crutcher<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><a
href="http://www.starlightsolar.com">www.starlightsolar.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><a
href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com">larry@starlightsolar.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>(928) 941-1660<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:48 PM, Conrad
Geyser wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>In the vein of us on grid folks
who’s heads spin when the off grid folks start talking about charge
programming and gen set start up parameters…</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>I am servicing an orphaned 48 V
off grid system that is only 1 1/2 years old, with 40 Concorde Sun Extender
batteries, which are for the most part, shot (about half of them under 10V
after a generator EQ charge). I’m sure the batteries have been
abused at least after the point that someone lowered the generator start
voltage to 40V. We’re still doing fact finding on the charge
parameters for the PV and wind, but I’m wondering if there is anyone that
has an opinion on the Concorde batteries.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>And at least at this point,
I’m glad I had to study for some off grid questions on the NABCEP test,
not to mention the conversations on this list. : ></span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Conrad</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<ns0:personname>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Cotuit Solar</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><w:sdtPr></w:sdtPr></span></p>
</div>
</ns0:personname>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'> </span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><span
style='color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>[<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Bob-O Schultze<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Wednesday, November
25, 2009 9:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><ns0:personname><span
style='color:black'>RE-wrenches</span></ns0:personname><span style='color:
black'><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [</span><ns0:personname><span
style='color:black'>RE-wrenches</span></ns0:personname><span style='color:
black'>] Nabcep - grid tie---Off grid</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'>William,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'>Nice to
meet you -however briefly- at the Solar Zoo in<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><ns0:city><span
style='color:black'>Anaheim</span></ns0:city><span style='color:black'>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'>If you
don't see the value in being NABCEP certified, then you shouldn't bother with
it. If your state- as more than a few have- decides to recognize it in some way
that affects your pocket, then you'll likely change your mind PDQ. I've
personally gotten one or two jobs that I know about because I was Certified and
the other bidder was not, but our bids were very close in price. Low-ballers,
like head lice, are just a nasty fact of life.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'>While I
generally agree with you on your point #2, it varies a lot state to state. I'm
licensed in CA and OR. While I understand the rules in CA are changing,
enforcement is, and has always been, a joke. In OR, you need a 4000 hour
apprenticeship AND 256 hours of general electrical classroom time to get a
Renewable Energy license. A general journeyman license is twice that. I've had
inspectors come to our job site and check that everyone is licensed. In OR, you
don't lay hands on a wire without a license. Ever hear of the like in CA? Maybe
in the big cities, but nowhere else.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'>We're
totally on the same page about the IBEW. If you understand that their goal is
total domination of the electrical trade everywhere, a lot of how they operate
makes sense. I'm a pro-Union kinda guy as a rule, but, like religion, too much
of a thing is way worse than none.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'>As to
experience with EMT and the like, again it varies state to state and certainly
region to region. In this neck of the woods, if you can't bend an offset or
saddle bend, you are either a new apprentice or unemployed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'>Best,
Bob-O<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'>On Nov
24, 2009, at 11:48 PM, William Miller wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'>Friends:<br>
<br>
I'd like to make two brief points on the training/NABCEP debate:<br>
<br>
1. If I thought NABCEP certification would get me one more job I'd normally
lose to a low-ball bidder, I'd be inclined to sit for the test, but it won't.<br>
<br>
2. Most solar electric installers could not be considered electricians.
Until they learn the trade, they are not qualified to install the most basic
grid tie system. Conversely, many electricians with the most basic
electrical skills think they know all that needs to be known to design and
install solar-electric. Wrong again.<br>
<br>
I don't support the IBEW concept of taking over the solar industry by force,
but I do respect their concept of actually encouraging well rounded
electrician's skills. How many solar installers can actually lay an
offset into a stick of EMT? Not many. Most are glorified stereo
installers, plugging and praying.<br>
<br>
Respectfully,<br>
<br>
William Miller<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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