[RE-wrenches] ahem... supply side taps

Jeff Blick jeff.blick at sunlightsolar.com
Tue Sep 2 16:14:35 PDT 2008


Hi Everyone,
We are installing two grid-tied commercial systems that we will need to do
supply side taps in order to connect to the grid.  I am curious as to
exactly how this is achieved? Hoping that those of you who have done supply
side taps on three-phase 480V or three phase 120/208 systems could shed some
light on this for me.  What parts do we use to achieve connection?  Does
anyone have any photos?  Thanks all in advance for your advice........


 
 
Jeff Blick
PV installer
Sunlight Solar Inc.
4 NW Franklin
Bend, OR 97701
direct: 541-306-4196
fax: 541-322-1911
jeff.blick at sunlightsolar.com
www.sunlightsolar.com
 

-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
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re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 4:00 PM
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 1, Issue 111

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Followup to Surrette Battery Question (Bruce Geddes)
   2. Re: Followup to Surrette Battery Question (mick abraham)
   3. Re: Followup to Surrette Battery Question (Dana)
   4. line side taps (Jeff Blick)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 09:58:55 +1200
From: Bruce Geddes <b.geddes at clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Followup to Surrette Battery Question
To: allan at positiveenergysolar.com,	RE-wrenches
	<re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Message-ID: <96E2772CBA0A4287A37D946DB10B9328 at BrucePC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
	reply-type=original

> And one final question: In my original post I asked if deionized water was
> the same as distilled water. Nobody addressed this question. The customer
> said he investigated (Wikipedia, I think) and found no difference. Any 
> other
> opinions, or (even better) definitive answers on this?
>
> Thank you,
> Allan at PosE

An interesting post Allan and a pretty thorough run down on what happened - 
thank you for the information.

To the best of my understanding deionised water has been passed through an 
ion exchange filter so any reactive particles are removed.  Distilled water 
has been distilled (evaporated and condensed) and this does not mean it is 
totally unreactive.  Any volitile compounds in the water may have been 
distilled also and still be in solution.  It will be sterile though.

The water I source here in New Zealand (maybe not availalble in the States) 
has been through both processes and is sold as a food grade product for 
manufacturing tinctures etc.  Dirt cheap from a bulk retail store unlike 
distilled water which is pretty pricey.

Bruce Geddes
PowerOn 



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:08:32 -0600
From: "mick abraham" <mick at abrahamsolar.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Followup to Surrette Battery Question
To: allan at positiveenergysolar.com,	RE-wrenches
	<re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Message-ID: <20080902215428.M39738 at abrahamsolar.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=iso-8859-1

Allen Sindelar was polling for information/opinions about deionized water
versus distilled for lead battery top-up. Since "genuine steam distilled"
H2O
can be bought for $0.69 per gallon, why take chances on anything else? There
are enough other possible problems without creating more for ourselves.

On the subject of battery health, equalization issues, etc: 

I just got a batch of customized monitors which can capture the voltage on
each 2-volt cell at the same instant. There's also a datalogger option which
will record the snapshots over time. This should be a handy tool for us
"battery diagnosticians". For a 48 volt string, 25 electrical connections
must
be made in order to read all the cells. The simultaneous capture means no
more
worries about the "end to end voltage" moving while the tech is trying to
measure the cells.

Some end users may also want to add this to their high end battery systems.

Interested Wrenches may contact me off list and I'll send you a .pdf info
flyer plus pricing info.

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com
Voice: 970-731-4675


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:41:42 -0600
From: "Dana" <dana at solarwork.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Followup to Surrette Battery Question
To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Message-ID: <014c01c90d4d$12763770$3762a650$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

No DI water is not the same as Distilled water.

Thanks -

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc
www.solarwork.com
E - dana at solarwork.com
V - 970.626.5253
F - 970.626.4140
C - 970.209.4076


-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Geddes
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 3:59 PM
To: allan at positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Followup to Surrette Battery Question

> And one final question: In my original post I asked if deionized water was
> the same as distilled water. Nobody addressed this question. The customer
> said he investigated (Wikipedia, I think) and found no difference. Any 
> other
> opinions, or (even better) definitive answers on this?
>
> Thank you,
> Allan at PosE

An interesting post Allan and a pretty thorough run down on what happened - 
thank you for the information.

To the best of my understanding deionised water has been passed through an 
ion exchange filter so any reactive particles are removed.  Distilled water 
has been distilled (evaporated and condensed) and this does not mean it is 
totally unreactive.  Any volitile compounds in the water may have been 
distilled also and still be in solution.  It will be sterile though.

The water I source here in New Zealand (maybe not availalble in the States) 
has been through both processes and is sold as a food grade product for 
manufacturing tinctures etc.  Dirt cheap from a bulk retail store unlike 
distilled water which is pretty pricey.

Bruce Geddes
PowerOn 

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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 15:59:11 -0700
From: "Jeff Blick" <jeff.blick at sunlightsolar.com>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] line side taps
To: <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Message-ID: <001f01c90d4f$83f02260$0800a8c0 at D8M828C1>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="US-ASCII"

Hi Everyone,
We are installing two grid-tied commercial systems that we will need to do
line side taps in order to connect to the grid.  I am curious as to exactly
how this is achieved? Hoping that those of you who have done line side taps
on three-phase 480V or three phase 120/208 systems could shed some light on
this for me.  What parts do we use to achieve connection?  Does anyone have
any photos?  Thanks all in advance for your advice........

 
 
Jeff Blick
PV installer
Sunlight Solar Inc.
4 NW Franklin
Bend, OR 97701
direct: 541-306-4196
fax: 541-322-1911
jeff.blick at sunlightsolar.com
www.sunlightsolar.com
 

-----Original Message-----
From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 2:11 PM
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 1, Issue 110

Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to
	re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject:
line to the original

Today's Topics:

   1. Utility disco DC? (Drake Chamberlin)
   2. Re: Utility disco DC? (Erika M. Weliczko (REPOWER SOLUTIONS))
   3. Re: Utility disco DC? (David Brearley)
   4. Re: Followup to Surrette Battery Question (Allan Sindelar)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:56:16 -0700
From: "Drake Chamberlin" <drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Utility disco DC?
To: <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Message-ID: <f442d88d51604272bb6c9de13c3704b9 at homepower.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello Wrenches

Can the lockable utility disconnect be DC?  Has anyone tried this?   On an
add on system we found this had been done.   It would be convenient to use
this method.   

Thanks,

Drake 


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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:02:00 -0400
From: "Erika M. Weliczko (REPOWER SOLUTIONS)"
	<erika at repowersolutions.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Utility disco DC?
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org
Message-ID: <20080902200351.87C44FFC9 at che.dreamhost.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"

Depends on utility probably but most around here specify AC disconnect.
Probably since they only really speak one language. 

erika




------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 15:28:00 -0500
From: David Brearley <david.brearley at solarprofessional.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Utility disco DC?
To: <drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org>,	RE-wrenches
	<re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Message-ID: <C4E30C00.8F2%david.brearley at solarprofessional.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

One of my previous colleagues negotiated this on a high profile project in a
new jurisdiction. The inspector didn?t have a problem with this.

You should definitely talk to the AHJ. It?s not a difficult case to make: no
PV input = no inverter output.

Good luck,

David


On 9/2/08 2:56 PM, "Drake Chamberlin" <drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org>
wrote:

> Hello Wrenches
> 
> Can the lockable utility disconnect be DC?  Has anyone tried this?   On an
add
> on system we found this had been done.   It would be convenient to use
this
> method.   
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Drake 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> David Brearley, Technical Editor
> SolarPro magazine
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer ?
> david.brearley at solarprofessional.com
> Direct: 541.261.6545
> Fax:  541.512.0343
> 
> Visit our Web site at solarprofessional.com

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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 15:10:28 -0600
From: "Allan Sindelar" <allan at positiveenergysolar.com>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Followup to Surrette Battery Question
To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Cc: Charles_Haecker at nps.gov
Message-ID: <112EA229E5F64AB6A12BA8320CFF785E at AllanLaptop>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Wrenches,
I had promised a followup post on what I learned when I inspected this
client's batteries. The short form of the original issue (original post
query is at bottom): client had as recently as June been able to EQ from his
array to 31.1V, now couldn't get past 30.7.

There are a few good lessons here.

Upon arrival: Batteries at 78 degrees F in basement. TM2020 indicated pretty
high late-morning SOC, but still charging in bulk. Cell voltages (two-cell
pairs) ranged from 4.80 to 4.82, so pretty close range there. Specific
gravities, though, ranged from 1.234 to 1.260, measured with a
refractometer, with lowest cells getting rechecked and verified. The cells
with both the lowest and highest SGs had the (slightly) highest cell
voltages. About 52A input, less 10A load.

Enabled EQ from MX60; temperature rose to 84F. Voltage measured at MX60:
30.7; voltage on MX60 display: 30.9 (I corrected this); voltage measured at
battery terminals 30.45. The 1/4V drop is in the cables and remaining
disconnects of the original and upgraded system DC disconnects and cables.

My observations:
1. Small amount of liquid pooling in EPDM battery box liner. Asking lotsa
questions determined that the owner was near-obsessive in maintaining his
batteries, and added water every month. These large Surrette cells had
replaced multiple strings of golf-carts, so old habits die hard, even with
much larger electrolyte reserves. We determined that he was filling the
cells too often and too full, which was causing some electrolyte spillage.
As any spilled electrolyte was later replaced with water, some cells were
thus being diluted. I suspect that this is the primary cause of lower EQ
voltage.

What made this worse was that we had replaced his charge controller with an
MX60 and showed him how to engage EQ on it. All MX60s show a screen on EQ
startup that says "Check Water Level". He had interpreted this to mean add
water before equalizing. The bubbling and expansion of the EQ overcharge
then caused more spilled electrolyte.

2. The fan on the MX60 had failed, as many of them have. While I don't know
for sure, this may have either limited the unit's output due to temperature
rise, or may have caused a misinterpretation of battery voltage or
temperature correction; either could have caused these symptoms. The
customer noted that he was familiar with the fan's sound, but hadn't noticed
that it had recently stopped.

So my actions:
1. Increased absorption time.
2. Disassembled and cleaned three terminals that were beginning to show
corrosion (even with Quick-Cote on them).
3. Advised the customer to fill his batteries less often and less full.
4. Set MX60 Max EQ time temporarily to the max (7 hours, I think) and
instructed him to do a corrective EQ from the array for at least a week.
5. Ordered a warranty replacement fan from Outback.
6. Recommended he not sell his generator but repair it, in order to get his
EQ C/rate up to C/10 or so for hotter charging and winter EQ.

I could also add electrolyte to the cells with the lowest SG after all this,
but how much to add is a real crapshoot. Can anyone offer guidance on adding
electrolyte to compensate for spillage?

And one final question: In my original post I asked if deionized water was
the same as distilled water. Nobody addressed this question. The customer
said he investigated (Wikipedia, I think) and found no difference. Any other
opinions, or (even better) definitive answers on this?

Thank you,
Allan at PosE

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 11:54 AM

Wrenches,
Thank you for the whole set of responses. 

I haven't been to the site yet, but plan to stop there this week. As the
symptoms are not easily explained, I wanted to put the problem out for ideas
here first, to reduce the chance of missing something. I will report back
with what I learn.

I will first check whether the 0.4 V discrepancy is related to battery
temperature. It seems to me that the simplest way to do this is to check the
MX60 settings during equalization. If the measured voltage is at the MX60's
temperature-compensated EQ voltage, then a warm environment is the apparent
cause of the reduced voltage.

To answer a few of your many questions and fill in some details:
1. As I noted in my original post, the MX60 is temperature compensated. The
VFX3524 is too, although the client tells me he hasn't run the generator
since we added the 1.28 kW array.
2. To the best of my knowledge, the charge controll settings have not
changed (that would be too easy!). The client hasn't changed settings, and
we take care of all of their service needs.
3. The client equalizes regularly, as he notes in his description: last EQ
(to 31.1 v) was in June.
4. The array is wired 48V, so hot modules and/or undersized wire isn't a
voltage-limitation issue. 
5. There are 6 4V batteries, 12 cells. I had conservatively figured the
charge rate at about C/20, so the charge rate is adequate for off-grid. I
most likely have the MX60 set to two hours absorption with a 2% done amps
override to lessen gassing. After Surrette's tech bulletin about batteries
in off-grid applications (recommending higher charge voltages and longer
absorption times) came out, I started setting longer absorption times; I
will go back and increase the absorption time on these to three hours, while
keeping the 2% done amps in place. Would anyone argue with this setting
change?
6. Tri-Metric voltage readings usually vary from MX60 readings, yes, but
they don't tend to change over time. This situation is presented as a recent
change from consistent past performance.
7. The client has not checked individual cell voltages or specific
gravities. I will do that when I go there on a service call and will report
back.
8. Re the quick C/5 charge idea: I would ask Jamie Surrette for his
recommendation here. For sure, it hasn't happened; the client says the
generator (an older Honda 5500, I think) needs service before it will start.
I'll advise him not to sell it (as he plans) until we have resolved this and
gotten Jamie's advice on battery care.
9. Miscalibration of the MX60 is unlikely but possible, and I will check
this when on site.

Thank you to the many of you who responded. Jamie Surrette responded
off-list too, asking about battery temperature. I will report back after
checking all of the above.
Allan at Positive Energy

-----Original Message-----
Wrenches,
In late 2003 we installed a 24V set of Rolls-Surrette 4-KS-21PS 6V 1104 A/hr
batteries in the off-grid system of a long-time client. The client's system
had a democracy array of around 800 watts of tracked PV. In early 2005 we
added 1,280 watts of additional PV, and the client hasn't run the generator
since; the system rarely drops below 80% and fills to 100% most days in
sunny New Mexico. Batteries are located in a basement, so temperatures stay
relatively constant, although it will vary slightly seasonally. MX60
controller is temperature compensated, with 29.6 VDC bulk and 31.4 VDC EQ
set points.

The problem is that the client reports being unable to achieve previous EQ
voltages, and this inability appears to be a new development. The system is
otherwise performing well. As the client is sharp and pays close attention
to the system's operation, I'm not ready to blame user ignorance (with one
possible exception; read on). This may be an issue of seasonally warm
temperatures, but I'm not sure this would explain the full 0.4 VDC reduction
in voltage. I told him that I would post his problem to this list, and also
request advice from Surrette Battery.

Here is the client's description of the symptoms:
I'm concerned that I am unable to equalize batteries at this time.  Up
until June of this year the Tri-Metric readings during equalizing indicated
holding voltage at 31.1, with maximum amps gain of around 52.   Three weeks
ago, when set on equalize, the maximum voltage reading was 30.7, with
maximum amps of 46; this was reached around noon, and by around 1:30 pm
voltage/amps began its typical afternoon drop-off.  I attempted equalizing
on two other occasions since then--the last time this past Saturday, with
clear skies up until mid-afternoon--but having the same results.  So, the
question is: are my batteries beginning their decline? We've had this set
for 4 1/2 years, so it would seem a bit too early for this, given that these
batteries are expected to last 7-10 years.

Second issue, possibly related:

On another matter, I have been using deionized water for the batteries for
as long as we've been using photovoltaics (since 1991), as it is my
understanding that deioinized water is virtually the same as distilled
water--I just checked Wikipedia on this (using "deionized and distilled
water" as the search phrase), and this appears to be the case.

I don't know the answer to this question, as we have always recommended
distilled water only in batteries, and have never faced this question.

Any help would be appreciated.

Allan Sindelar



------------------------------

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