Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]

Holt Kelly holtek at sbcglobal.net
Thu Mar 22 06:07:57 PDT 2007



Collector stagnation is something that I am concerned about.The 
collectors will sit unused for several months at a time. Schuco tech 
recommended yearly drain of glycol in their system even with the "steam 
back" feature. If a batch system is selected, I'm wondering how much 
sediment would collect and wondering what type of maintenance schedule 
should be recommended. 
Thanks to all for the input. 


Ken Schaal wrote:
> 
> A simple solution to copper corrosion due to acid water is to install a 
> neutralizer tank, which uses marble chips to raise the ph. Thicker 
> copper 
> will only delay the problem.
> There will be more lime deposits to precipitate onto very hot surfaces, 
> like 
> coffee makers, which can be cleaned with vinegar. For boilers, and batch 
> 
> heaters subject to high temps or stagnation, appropriately placed valves 
> 
> will facilitate cleaning with acid.
> 
> One of the many reasons to use drainback systems, especially now that 
> very 
> low wattage pumps with high head are available.
> 
> Ken
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tom Lane" <tom at ecs-solar.com>
> To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:26 AM
> Subject: Re: Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]
> 
> 
> >
> > Hi All,
> > I strongly recommend the SunEarth Copper Heart versus the Progressive 
> > Tube 
> > (TCT) PT-40. The TCT PT-40 uses a .030 copper sheet that is welded to 
> > form 
> > a tube. We have had lots of problems with this leaking in agressive 
> > water. 
> > The Copper Heart  uses extruded .058 DWV copper pipe--almost twice as 
> > thick. I suggest a Rheem or Rudd 80 or 120 gallon wrap around heat 
> > exchange tank if the water is agressive(low ph., iron oxides, CO2 or O2, 
> > 
> > etc.. with a SunEarth or AET Drainback or pressurized glycol system.
> > Gator Tom
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Ken Schaal" <ken at commonwealthsolar.com>
> > To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 8:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Holt
> >>
> >> " as much water as hot as possible" sounds like an invitation to a 
> >> scalding lawsuit to me.There is a reason those conventional tanks have 
> >> all those warning labels on them.
> >>
> >> To get good answers, you need to ask the right questions.
> >> I haven't gotten answers to what I would consider the right 
> >> questions.Can 
> >> the camp director not answer these?
> >>
> >> Ken
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Holt Kelly" <holtek at sbcglobal.net>
> >> To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:34 AM
> >> Subject: RE: Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Ken,
> >>> Greatly appreciate the input.
> >>> In talking to camp director their idea is to get as much water as hot as
> >>> poosible. Their electric kwh rate is based on peak demand, so tankless
> >>> backup is not the way to go. On a scale of 1 to 5(hardest) water
> >>> hardness was rated a 4. Our thinking now is to go with one of two
> >>> systems: 1) TCT's PT40 or PT50 with a Marathon 85 conventional tank for
> >>> backup. Simple install, minimum maintenance, increased capacity.
> >>> Freezing issue is the only drawback. 2) Schuco Slimline 2 System. Pretty
> >>> much bullet proof, but very pricey. Would need to train camp staff to
> >>> monitor properly. Any thoughts out there?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Ken Schaal wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Holt
> >>>> Maybe we should back up a bit and ask a few questions.
> >>>> 1-- You said summer camp--June July and Aug? In Texas? Do they even 
> >>>> want
> >>>> hot
> >>>> water of 120+ ?
> >>>> Or will it be more like 90-115?
> >>>>
> >>>> 2-- Showers are for 1 hr. -- How many shower heads? flow rate? water
> >>>> pressure issues? length of shower? cold water temp?
> >>>> If we assume 14 kids and two showers at 2gpm ea. for 5min ea, then we
> >>>> have a
> >>>> total flow rate of 4gpm and a total on time of 35 min. with a 2 min
> >>>> break
> >>>> between showers, for a total draw in less than 50 min of 140 gal of
> >>>> shower
> >>>> temp water.
> >>>>
> >>>> 3-- How close are the cabins? You said the solar resource was excellent
> >>>> to
> >>>> fair, so it sounds like some are shaded. If the cabins are grouped,
> >>>> maybe
> >>>> one system could serve multiple cabins?
> >>>>
> >>>> Depending on you answers, I'll suggest an appropriate system.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ken Schaal
> >>>> CommonWealth Solar,LLC
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >>>> From: "Darryl Thayer" <daryl_solar at yahoo.com>
> >>>> To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 12:36 PM
> >>>> Subject: RE: Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Don"t underestimate the tremendous power draw of these
> >>>> > heaters.  If the campers run out of hot water and they
> >>>> > start using the 70 amps per leg per cabin this will
> >>>> > wipe you out fast.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > The problems I have had and even in my own house has
> >>>> > been the temperature changes as you try to shower.
> >>>> > When the flow rate is steady only one shower and the
> >>>> > solar is not to hot, the unit will turn on, on medium
> >>>> > fire, and the user actually adjusts the temperature by
> >>>> > flow rate.  If the solar is to hot the unit will hunt
> >>>> > on its own accord with the high limit shutting it off
> >>>> > and the temp changing.  Now if you add a second
> >>>> > shower, it comes on and now the temp drops, then the
> >>>> > first shower adjusts either the flow or the mix (same
> >>>> > thing) the second shower changes temp and they adjust
> >>>> > the first then changes temp and they adjust AAAhhhh!
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Now I explain this to people who have solar and
> >>>> > instant water heaters, and that I will not guarantee
> >>>> > satisfaction, and I still get customers saying it is
> >>>> > my problem when they are unhappy, and I need to fix
> >>>> > that.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > When people get experience they understand how to
> >>>> > adjust and do not have two showers on at once and get
> >>>> > by OK.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Mixing valves will do this for you automatically, but
> >>>> > they usually fall out of the range of acceptable temp
> >>>> > range.
> >>>> > --- Holt Kelly <holtek at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Darryl,
> >>>> >> Could you eleaborate a bit on why the customers were
> >>>> >> "unhappy" and on
> >>>> >> the "tricks needed" for uniform temps? The only
> >>>> >> complaint that I have
> >>>> >> gotten on electric tankless (besides spinning the
> >>>> >> meter at 1000rpm)is
> >>>> >> the loud clicks of the relays during start-up (Eemax
> >>>> >> brand). Thanks for
> >>>> >> your input.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Darryl Thayer wrote:
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > Hello
> >>>> >> > I agree, except for the back-up heater.  I have
> >>>> >> > installed up to 70A-240 volt instant heaters with
> >>>> >> > unhappy customers.  I have installed even the
> >>>> >> TAGAI
> >>>> >> > which is rated for solar with unhappy customers
> >>>> >> > because of the tricks that must be played to get a
> >>>> >> > shower of uniform temperature.  If the goal is
> >>>> >> > reasonable showers then use a tank type back up
> >>>> >> > heater.
> >>>> >> > Darryl
> >>>>  I have been asked to design a hot water system
> >>>> >> at
> >>>> >> > > a summer camp. 21
> >>>> >> > > > seperate sytems. Hot water for showers is used
> >>>> >> > > from 4:30pm to 5:30pm(14
> >>>> >> > > > showers)per system, very little use the rest
> >>>> >> of
> >>>> >> > > the day. Solar resource
> >>>> >> > > > is excellent to fair. My initial thoughts were
> >>>> >> 2-
> >>>> >> > > 40gal passive
> >>>> >> > > > collectors with an electric tankless backup
> >>>> >> (need
> >>>> >> > > to keep maintenance to
> >>>> >> > > > a minimum). Or possibly Helio-flo with single
> >>>> >> > > tank. Any thoughts out
> >>>> >> > > > there?
> >>>> >> > > >
> >>>> >> > > > Holt E. Kelly
> >>>> >> > > > Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
> >>>> >> > > > Waco, TX.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Holt E. Kelly
> >>> Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
> >>> Waco, TX.
> >>>
> >>>
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> 



Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
Waco, TX.


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