Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]

Fri Mar 23 05:00:01 PDT 2007

Ken,

I have never heard of the marble chips technique before. Do I understand
that the marble chemically reacts with the acid water as well as becomes a
precipitate site for hard water scale? If there is a chemical reaction, how
long does the marble last?

My compliments for thinking outside of the box.

Is this marble tank something you home brew or is it commercially available?
Details please.

Thanks again,

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ken Schaal" <ken at commonwealthsolar.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]

>
> A simple solution to copper corrosion due to acid water is to install a
> neutralizer tank, which uses marble chips to raise the ph. Thicker copper
> will only delay the problem.
> There will be more lime deposits to precipitate onto very hot surfaces,
like
> coffee makers, which can be cleaned with vinegar. For boilers, and batch
> heaters subject to high temps or stagnation, appropriately placed valves
> will facilitate cleaning with acid.
>
> One of the many reasons to use drainback systems, especially now that very
> low wattage pumps with high head are available.
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tom Lane" <tom at ecs-solar.com>
> To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:26 AM
> Subject: Re: Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]
>
>
> >
> > Hi All,
> > I strongly recommend the SunEarth Copper Heart versus the Progressive
Tube
> > (TCT) PT-40. The TCT PT-40 uses a .030 copper sheet that is welded to
form
> > a tube. We have had lots of problems with this leaking in agressive
water.
> > The Copper Heart  uses extruded .058 DWV copper pipe--almost twice as
> > thick. I suggest a Rheem or Rudd 80 or 120 gallon wrap around heat
> > exchange tank if the water is agressive(low ph., iron oxides, CO2 or O2,
> > etc.. with a SunEarth or AET Drainback or pressurized glycol system.
> > Gator Tom
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Ken Schaal" <ken at commonwealthsolar.com>
> > To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 8:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Holt
> >>
> >> " as much water as hot as possible" sounds like an invitation to a
> >> scalding lawsuit to me.There is a reason those conventional tanks have
> >> all those warning labels on them.
> >>
> >> To get good answers, you need to ask the right questions.
> >> I haven't gotten answers to what I would consider the right
questions.Can
> >> the camp director not answer these?
> >>
> >> Ken
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Holt Kelly" <holtek at sbcglobal.net>
> >> To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:34 AM
> >> Subject: RE: Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Ken,
> >>> Greatly appreciate the input.
> >>> In talking to camp director their idea is to get as much water as hot
as
> >>> poosible. Their electric kwh rate is based on peak demand, so tankless
> >>> backup is not the way to go. On a scale of 1 to 5(hardest) water
> >>> hardness was rated a 4. Our thinking now is to go with one of two
> >>> systems: 1) TCT's PT40 or PT50 with a Marathon 85 conventional tank
for
> >>> backup. Simple install, minimum maintenance, increased capacity.
> >>> Freezing issue is the only drawback. 2) Schuco Slimline 2 System.
Pretty
> >>> much bullet proof, but very pricey. Would need to train camp staff to
> >>> monitor properly. Any thoughts out there?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Ken Schaal wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Holt
> >>>> Maybe we should back up a bit and ask a few questions.
> >>>> 1-- You said summer camp--June July and Aug? In Texas? Do they even
> >>>> want
> >>>> hot
> >>>> water of 120+ ?
> >>>> Or will it be more like 90-115?
> >>>>
> >>>> 2-- Showers are for 1 hr. -- How many shower heads? flow rate? water
> >>>> pressure issues? length of shower? cold water temp?
> >>>> If we assume 14 kids and two showers at 2gpm ea. for 5min ea, then we
> >>>> have a
> >>>> total flow rate of 4gpm and a total on time of 35 min. with a 2 min
> >>>> break
> >>>> between showers, for a total draw in less than 50 min of 140 gal of
> >>>> shower
> >>>> temp water.
> >>>>
> >>>> 3-- How close are the cabins? You said the solar resource was
excellent
> >>>> to
> >>>> fair, so it sounds like some are shaded. If the cabins are grouped,
> >>>> maybe
> >>>> one system could serve multiple cabins?
> >>>>
> >>>> Depending on you answers, I'll suggest an appropriate system.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ken Schaal
> >>>> CommonWealth Solar,LLC
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >>>> From: "Darryl Thayer" <daryl_solar at yahoo.com>
> >>>> To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 12:36 PM
> >>>> Subject: RE: Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Don"t underestimate the tremendous power draw of these
> >>>> > heaters.  If the campers run out of hot water and they
> >>>> > start using the 70 amps per leg per cabin this will
> >>>> > wipe you out fast.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > The problems I have had and even in my own house has
> >>>> > been the temperature changes as you try to shower.
> >>>> > When the flow rate is steady only one shower and the
> >>>> > solar is not to hot, the unit will turn on, on medium
> >>>> > fire, and the user actually adjusts the temperature by
> >>>> > flow rate.  If the solar is to hot the unit will hunt
> >>>> > on its own accord with the high limit shutting it off
> >>>> > and the temp changing.  Now if you add a second
> >>>> > shower, it comes on and now the temp drops, then the
> >>>> > first shower adjusts either the flow or the mix (same
> >>>> > thing) the second shower changes temp and they adjust
> >>>> > the first then changes temp and they adjust AAAhhhh!
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Now I explain this to people who have solar and
> >>>> > instant water heaters, and that I will not guarantee
> >>>> > satisfaction, and I still get customers saying it is
> >>>> > my problem when they are unhappy, and I need to fix
> >>>> > that.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > When people get experience they understand how to
> >>>> > adjust and do not have two showers on at once and get
> >>>> > by OK.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Mixing valves will do this for you automatically, but
> >>>> > they usually fall out of the range of acceptable temp
> >>>> > range.
> >>>> > --- Holt Kelly <holtek at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Darryl,
> >>>> >> Could you eleaborate a bit on why the customers were
> >>>> >> "unhappy" and on
> >>>> >> the "tricks needed" for uniform temps? The only
> >>>> >> complaint that I have
> >>>> >> gotten on electric tankless (besides spinning the
> >>>> >> meter at 1000rpm)is
> >>>> >> the loud clicks of the relays during start-up (Eemax
> >>>> >> brand). Thanks for
> >>>> >> your input.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Darryl Thayer wrote:
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > Hello
> >>>> >> > I agree, except for the back-up heater.  I have
> >>>> >> > installed up to 70A-240 volt instant heaters with
> >>>> >> > unhappy customers.  I have installed even the
> >>>> >> TAGAI
> >>>> >> > which is rated for solar with unhappy customers
> >>>> >> > because of the tricks that must be played to get a
> >>>> >> > shower of uniform temperature.  If the goal is
> >>>> >> > reasonable showers then use a tank type back up
> >>>> >> > heater.
> >>>> >> > Darryl
> >>>>  I have been asked to design a hot water system
> >>>> >> at
> >>>> >> > > a summer camp. 21
> >>>> >> > > > seperate sytems. Hot water for showers is used
> >>>> >> > > from 4:30pm to 5:30pm(14
> >>>> >> > > > showers)per system, very little use the rest
> >>>> >> of
> >>>> >> > > the day. Solar resource
> >>>> >> > > > is excellent to fair. My initial thoughts were
> >>>> >> 2-
> >>>> >> > > 40gal passive
> >>>> >> > > > collectors with an electric tankless backup
> >>>> >> (need
> >>>> >> > > to keep maintenance to
> >>>> >> > > > a minimum). Or possibly Helio-flo with single
> >>>> >> > > tank. Any thoughts out
> >>>> >> > > > there?
> >>>> >> > > >
> >>>> >> > > > Holt E. Kelly
> >>>> >> > > > Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
> >>>> >> > > > Waco, TX.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Holt E. Kelly
> >>> Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
> >>> Waco, TX.
> >>>
> >>>
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