Digest for RE-wrenches at topica.com, issue 2299 [RE-wrenches]
Dana Orzel
dana at solarwork.com
Sat Jan 13 16:29:51 PST 2007
Generators
Engine Speed - 1800 RPM VS 3600 RPM - 1800 RPM runs half as fast, much
quieter and lasts longer.
Cooling - Air cooled VS. Water cooled - Water cooled lasts longer and is
Quieter.
Two wire start VS Three wire start - Two wire is usually less hassle but not
much of a difference.
Water cooled and 1800 RPM costs more, sometimes double but is usually less
hassle, Lots QUIETER, smoother running, and last more than twice as long and
are real engines like a vehicle engine.
I sell 99% - 1800 RPM and water cooled generators.
Dana Orzel
Great Solar Works, Inc.
"Responsible Systems For Responsible People"
dana at solarwork.com
970.626.5253 - H/O
970.209.4076 - C
970.626.4140 - F
-----Original Message-----
From: RE-wrenches at topica.com [mailto:RE-wrenches at topica.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 5:03 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Digest for RE-wrenches at topica.com, issue 2299
-- Topica Digest --
backup generator specs...
By ntrei at earthlink.net
Re: backup generator specs...
By toddcory at finestplanet.com
RE: Inverter tripping AFCI
By jim at altenertec.com
Re: backup generator specs...
By wrmiller at charter.net
RE: Siemens Solar literature hunt
By bob at energyoutfitters.com
Re: backup generator specs...
By john at raynes.com
Any comments about CitizenRE
By leebristol at gmail.com
RE: Any comments about CitizenRE
By wratterman at SunEnergyPower.com
RE: Any comments about CitizenRE
By markf at berkeleysolar.com
Re: backup generator specs...
By Roy at Four-winds-energy.com
RE: Any comments about CitizenRE
By cfreitas at outbackpower.com
PG&E Disconnect
By markf at berkeleysolar.com
RE: Any comments about CitizenRE
By graham at solarexpert.com
Re: Any comments about CitizenRE
By telliot at wagonmaker.com
Re: backup generator specs...
By ezra at lasqueti.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:21:32 +0000
From: Jim Duncan <ntrei at earthlink.net>
Subject: backup generator specs...
A customer, building a small 1kW PV off-grid weekend home, insists that
he can get a better deal on a backup generator than I and insists that I
won't get to make that choice. So wanting to at least have some
oversight in what he buys, told him I would forward some technical info
to him since all generators are not created equally inverter friendly.
Where can I find a list of specs, on the www, relating to the do's and
dont's of generator selection? Combing thru the archives of the Wrenches
site was really slow and cumbersome and only turned up specific genset
related issues.
Come to think of it, I could use an update on the subject with so many
different brands currently on the market and the fact that I rarely do
off-grid installs.
Thanks as always
Jim Duncan
North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
Fort Worth, Texas
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 09:23:40 -0800
From: Todd Cory <toddcory at finestplanet.com>
Subject: Re: backup generator specs... [RE-wrenches]
I usually have the customer buy their generator, and prefer it to be
that way.
I DO offer suggestions. As I do smaller off grid systems (usually under
5 kWh a day) my suggestions might be different than the McMansion crowd
that I will not work for.These are to get a propane powered unit if
possible, since it is likely they will have that on the site anyway, it
burns cleaner, has no shelf life, and is less messy of a fuel to deal
with than gasoline. I also suggest wattage... usually 5 to 7 kW. Most
off grid folks have/need generators during the construction phase, and
being modern inverters can power share (adding the inverter output to
the generator output for powering large load surges), size is not as big
of an issue as one would think it could be.
I like the inverter/generators that are out now as they are more fuel
efficient, dialing in engine power input to match kW power output
requirements. I never set up auto start systems because I feel it is
dangerous to have unattended generators start automatically and often my
customers generators are located in enclosed closed pump houses so when
they go out to start it, they open the necessary venting.
Todd
Jim Duncan wrote:
>A customer, building a small 1kW PV off-grid weekend home, insists that
>he can get a better deal on a backup generator than I and insists that I
>won't get to make that choice. So wanting to at least have some
>oversight in what he buys, told him I would forward some technical info
>to him since all generators are not created equally inverter friendly.
>Where can I find a list of specs, on the www, relating to the do's and
>dont's of generator selection? Combing thru the archives of the Wrenches
>site was really slow and cumbersome and only turned up specific genset
>related issues.
>Come to think of it, I could use an update on the subject with so many
>different brands currently on the market and the fact that I rarely do
>off-grid installs.
>
>Thanks as always
>Jim Duncan
>North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
>Fort Worth, Texas
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:41:58 -0800
From: "Jim Easton" <jim at altenertec.com>
Subject: RE: Inverter tripping AFCI
We have customer with a pair of SW5548s grid-tie feeding an AFCI protected
load. The AFCI trips when energized -- thus disconnecting the load.
I am concerned that there might really be an arc fault somewhere -- although
I would expect it to burn itself out eventually, or, more probably, the SWs
are generating electrical noise that is tripping the AFCI.
Anyone have experience with inverters & AFCIs that might help in analyzing
or correcting the situation?
Thank you.
Jim Easton PE
Alternative Energy Technologies
www.altenertec.com
CSL: 852243
9465-B Mission Park Place
Santee, CA 92071
Tel: 619-262-8800
Fax: 619-562-8811
Cell: 858-527-0240
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:17:08 -0800
From: William Miller <wrmiller at charter.net>
Subject: Re: backup generator specs... [RE-wrenches]
Jim:
For starters (pun intended), two wire start.
William Miller
At 08:21 AM 1/12/2007, you wrote:
>A customer, building a small 1kW PV off-grid weekend home, insists that
>he can get a better deal on a backup generator than I and insists that I
>won't get to make that choice. So wanting to at least have some
>oversight in what he buys, told him I would forward some technical info
>to him since all generators are not created equally inverter friendly.
>Where can I find a list of specs, on the www, relating to the do's and
>dont's of generator selection? Combing thru the archives of the Wrenches
>site was really slow and cumbersome and only turned up specific genset
>related issues.
>Come to think of it, I could use an update on the subject with so many
>different brands currently on the market and the fact that I rarely do
>off-grid installs.
>
>Thanks as always
>Jim Duncan
>North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
>Fort Worth, Texas
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:53:37 -0800
From: "Bob Maynard" <bob at energyoutfitters.com>
Subject: RE: Siemens Solar literature hunt [RE-wrenches]
Hi Marco,
I just faxed you the M75 and SP75(originally called PC4JF) spec sheets.
Siemens also made a PC4 that had a plastic edge guard instead of
aluminum frame, no J-box, and 4 funky plastic mounting feet. If it has
standard frame and J-box then it's a PC4JF. Let me know if I can help
further!
Best Regards,
Bob Maynard
groSolar/Energy Outfitters
-----Original Message-----
From: Marco Mangelsdorf [mailto:marco at pvthawaii.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 5:14 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Siemens Solar literature hunt [RE-wrenches]
Anyone out there have the spec sheets on these dinosaurs: Siemens PC4
and
M75? I'd very much appreciate them if you have them.
Thanks,
marco
Marco Mangelsdorf, Ph.D., President
Electrical Contractor License C-26351
69 Railroad Avenue, Suite A-7
Hilo, Hawaii 96720 USA
(808) 969-3281, fax 934-7462
www.provisiontechnologies.com
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:11:00 -0700
From: John Raynes <john at raynes.com>
Subject: Re: backup generator specs... [RE-wrenches]
Ditto to what William said. If you're not installing an SW, that "great
deal" won't look so great if he's also looking at a $200-300 generator
start module (and your time to wire it all up and configure the 3-wire
start settings).
My impression is that most wrenches don't want to supply the
generator. I'm definitely in that camp.
My recommendations are to make sure that the generator is sized large
enough to handle the full battery AC charge amps capacity of the inverter,
plus typical daytime inverter loads, plus some margin. My experience has
been that most non-inverter style generators will start to slow down enough
to cause the inverter to drop the connection due to low frequency, a good
bit before the generator has reached max power. And that's after de-rating
the capacity by about 4% for every 1000' elevation above seal level
(somebody correct me if my percentage estimate is wrong). That last one's
probably not a big issue in No. Texas though.
John Raynes
RE Solar
Torrey, UT
At 11:17 AM 1/12/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>Jim:
>
>For starters (pun intended), two wire start.
>
>William Miller
>
>
>At 08:21 AM 1/12/2007, you wrote:
>
>>A customer, building a small 1kW PV off-grid weekend home, insists that
>>he can get a better deal on a backup generator than I and insists that I
>>won't get to make that choice. So wanting to at least have some
>>oversight in what he buys, told him I would forward some technical info
>>to him since all generators are not created equally inverter friendly.
>>Where can I find a list of specs, on the www, relating to the do's and
>>dont's of generator selection? Combing thru the archives of the Wrenches
>>site was really slow and cumbersome and only turned up specific genset
>>related issues.
>>Come to think of it, I could use an update on the subject with so many
>>different brands currently on the market and the fact that I rarely do
>>off-grid installs.
>>
>>Thanks as always
>>Jim Duncan
>>North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
>>Fort Worth, Texas
>
>
>- - - -
>To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
>Archive of previous messages:
http://lists.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/read
>
>List rules & how to change your email address:
>www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquette.php
>
>Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
>
>Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
>Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:15:45 -0500
From: "Lee Bristol" <leebristol at gmail.com>
Subject: Any comments about CitizenRE
Wrenches,
One of my prospects met a salesperson for CitizenRE and was impressed at
getting a solar PV system at no cost and paying only for the watts generated
plus a $500 downpayment fee. I emailed CitizenRE for information and was
contacted by a salesperson who wanted to sign me up as an installer paying a
small fee of $250 plus 5% of dollars generated. Of course, the person I
talked to knew nothing about solar, they had no installers in the Washington
DC area where I am located, and I was told that by the fall they would be
manufacturing panels, inverters, mounting hardware, etc.
So, it seems like a scam to me but does anyone else have an opinion.
Thanks!
--
Lee Bristol
VP/General Manager
Standard Solar, Inc.
20530 Beallsville Road
Beallsville, MD 20839
(301) 349-2871
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 13:36:12 -0800
From: "Walt Ratterman" <wratterman at SunEnergyPower.com>
Subject: RE: Any comments about CitizenRE [RE-wrenches]
Lee
If you are interested in doing something with them, physically visit the
place, and ask to see evidence of their manufacturing ability soon to be
on line. As you know, it would take a while to do this.
Walt
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Bristol [mailto:leebristol at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 1:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Any comments about CitizenRE [RE-wrenches]
Wrenches,
One of my prospects met a salesperson for CitizenRE and was impressed at
getting a solar PV system at no cost and paying only for the watts
generated
plus a $500 downpayment fee. I emailed CitizenRE for information and
was
contacted by a salesperson who wanted to sign me up as an installer
paying a
small fee of $250 plus 5% of dollars generated. Of course, the person I
talked to knew nothing about solar, they had no installers in the
Washington
DC area where I am located, and I was told that by the fall they would
be
manufacturing panels, inverters, mounting hardware, etc.
So, it seems like a scam to me but does anyone else have an opinion.
Thanks!
--
Lee Bristol
VP/General Manager
Standard Solar, Inc.
20530 Beallsville Road
Beallsville, MD 20839
(301) 349-2871
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 13:36:12 -0800
From: "Mark Frye" <markf at berkeleysolar.com>
Subject: RE: Any comments about CitizenRE [RE-wrenches]
Lee,
Please see various previous posting on this topic.
I started out with the strong impression that CitizenRE is some form of
scam, having had similar experience as you. Initially, the moderator of this
forum agreed with me. However, later he soften his position.
It does have the appearance of a classic venture capital exploitation scam:
fancy website, a few good people working for deferred compensation, a
network of "dummy' participants to give the impression of investment and
momentum.
My sense is that they are a "Dot-Com" era type venture which will likely
vanish long before any real product is delivered.
Naturally I would be keenly interested in receiving evidence to the
contrary, especially if such evidence was offered openly to all the
participants of this forum.
Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
2504 Webster St
Berkeley CA 94705-2504
(510) 685-3042
markf at berkeleysolar.com
www.berkeleysolar.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Bristol [mailto:leebristol at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 1:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Any comments about CitizenRE [RE-wrenches]
Wrenches,
One of my prospects met a salesperson for CitizenRE and was impressed at
getting a solar PV system at no cost and paying only for the watts generated
plus a $500 downpayment fee. I emailed CitizenRE for information and was
contacted by a salesperson who wanted to sign me up as an installer paying a
small fee of $250 plus 5% of dollars generated. Of course, the person I
talked to knew nothing about solar, they had no installers in the Washington
DC area where I am located, and I was told that by the fall they would be
manufacturing panels, inverters, mounting hardware, etc.
So, it seems like a scam to me but does anyone else have an opinion.
Thanks!
--
Lee Bristol
VP/General Manager
Standard Solar, Inc.
20530 Beallsville Road
Beallsville, MD 20839
(301) 349-2871
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:43:47 -0500
From: Four Winds <Roy at Four-winds-energy.com>
Subject: Re: backup generator specs... [RE-wrenches]
Jim,
Even more dittos from me on the 2 wire start being absolutely essential
and the LP as the preferred fuel.
Another thing.....some machines such as the Kohler do not have an
alternator and require a seperate 5 or 6 amp battery charger to keep the
start battery charged. This means a 120 volt AC circuit must be
installed along with everything else.....so watch for that. FYI....the
logic circuitry for the auto start is a parasitic load.
And the elephant in the living room.....warranty. Not many generator
companies will honor the generator warranty when it's used in an off
grid application. And believe me...they'll know what it's been used for
by the amount of hours on the machine. This is the primary reason I
backed away from offering generators to my off-grid customers.
I'd still say that Kohler is one of the better ones. Out of the 50+
off-grid systems I maintain, 18 use Kohler generators. Here in NY and PA
they do honor their warranty for off-grid...and have even offered
extended warranty packages.
And finally...watch the fuel consumption specs at various loads. I find
with medium sized inverter systems (3.5 to 7KW) that the 12 KW size is
about right....usually a good balance between fuel usage and charging
while running some loads. But of course the customer may have loads such
as those famous Texas air conditioners or the pumps in those 750+ foot
deep wells that may dictate a larger one.
Have fun!
Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerR
NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46
Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747
www.four-winds-energy.com
Jim Duncan wrote:
>A customer, building a small 1kW PV off-grid weekend home, insists that
>he can get a better deal on a backup generator than I and insists that I
>won't get to make that choice. So wanting to at least have some
>oversight in what he buys, told him I would forward some technical info
>to him since all generators are not created equally inverter friendly.
>Where can I find a list of specs, on the www, relating to the do's and
>dont's of generator selection? Combing thru the archives of the Wrenches
>site was really slow and cumbersome and only turned up specific genset
>related issues.
>Come to think of it, I could use an update on the subject with so many
>different brands currently on the market and the fact that I rarely do
>off-grid installs.
>
>Thanks as always
>Jim Duncan
>North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
>Fort Worth, Texas
>
>
>- - - -
>To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
>Archive of previous messages:
http://lists.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/read
>
>List rules & how to change your email address:
www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquette.php
>
>Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
>
>Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
>Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 23:57:47 +0000
From: Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power <cfreitas at outbackpower.com>
Subject: RE: Any comments about CitizenRE
Here is a very good link on CitizenRE with much more information than I
have previously found:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Citizenre_Corporation
Here are some highlights:
In 3-4 months, Citizenre will be announcing a wind power option using
the same arrangement. They will embrace newer and more efficient
technologies as they become available as well.
Roughly half of their customer base is residential, while the other half
is commercial.
Latest Developments
The company will be making its public debut with major announcements in
mid January, 2007. The information will include funding partners, sales
organizations, and insurance interests, all of which will be major,
well-known names.
Timeline
* ~Dec. 2006, promotion: $500 deposit waived for customers who sign up
* ~Jan. 2007, groundbreaking for 500 MegaWatt manufacturing facility.
6-10 more will follow.
* ~Jan. 2007, funding partners unveiled
* ~Mar. 2007, begin electrician hiring and training
* ~Jun. 2007, begin customer facility review by technicians and
contract signing
* ~Sep. 2007, begin installation
The company expects to install 100,000 units on homes in their first
year.
Additional Information
Source: Phone interview with Kendrick Coulter, one of three Executive
Sales Directors for Citizenre. Interviewed by Sterling D. Allan on Dec.
29, 2006. Some of the information obtained in this interview is also
reflected in other sections on this page.
The solar technology to be deployed by Citizenre is able to use a lower
grade silicon, which they will manufacture, so there will be no silicon
shortage issues. It is a polycrystalline material that achieves around
14% to 15% efficiency in converting solar to electricity. Where the
company's technology excels is in the cost, which will be half of what
other solar company's costs are in production.
Citizenre has been approaching numerous existing solar installers about
franchising. In many cases, several of these "Mom & Pop" organizations
joined together to qualify for a franchise. Additionally, there are
30,000 representatives from existing sales organizations waiting to come
into the operation.
Citizenre expects that by the year 2025, 25% of the total residential
power will be provided by them.
Considering the huge outlay required by the investing groups, you can
imagine the extensive due diligence they have gone through to make sure
that this business model is viable.
[edit]
Citizenrē REnU program
renu.citizenre.com (http://www.citizenre.com/pesnetwork)
Claims:
* No system purchase
* No installation cost
* No maintenance fees
* No permit hassles
* No performance worries
* No rate increases
Dec. 2006 Promotion
Citizenrē is running an introductory promotion waiving the normal
$500 security deposit requirement for customers who sign up for the
service in December.
Orders placed in December will be installed in September 2007.
Patents
The company has 15 patents on the technology.
Economic Viability
On Dec. 8, 2006, Richard George wrote
(http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=46770):
"This means that we can profitably handle retail home business at kwh
rates as low as 7 cents per KWH. Citizenrē maintains all CO2,
pollution, and renewable energy credits as we own the systems. We don't
need rebates and expect that all US solar electric rebate programs will
be terminated in the next two years. We're economic without them. They
have actually held back the industry."
Their Delaware address is registered and can be looked up at
https://sos-res.state.de.us/tin/GINameSearch.jsp
THE CITIZENRE CORPORATION
Contract Administration
501, Silverside Rd. suite 69
Wilmington, DE 19809
----------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:13:39 -0800
From: "Mark Frye" <markf at berkeleysolar.com>
Subject: PG&E Disconnect
Wrenches in PG&E territory:
You are probably aware of the recent decision by PG&E to discontinue the
requirement for the approved, lockable disconnect located within ten feet of
the meter. If not please feel free to contact me off list for a copy of the
notice.
Not all AHJ's are going along with this. Specifically, the City of Berkeley
continues to require the switch, erroneously claiming the it is "required by
the code."
Other AHJ's are not continuing to require the switch.
I am told that the best way to get the COB to come around is to show that
other cities are not requiring the switch.
To that end I would like to compile a list of the status of AHJ's relative
to this change.
I have the following list:
City of Berkeley, Continues to Require
Contra Costa County, Not Requiring
I have heard that several AHJ's in the foothills are not requiring.
If you have information on the status of AJH that you work with, please send
it to me so I can compile a list.
Thanks,
Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
2504 Webster St
Berkeley CA 94705-2504
(510) 685-3042
markf at berkeleysolar.com
www.berkeleysolar.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:32:59 -0800
From: "Graham F. Owen" <graham at solarexpert.com>
Subject: RE: Any comments about CitizenRE [RE-wrenches]
I noticed the lease terms are for 1, 5 or 25 years. I wonder where the used
modules end up. Hopefully not in India or S America, after being subsidized
by local ratepayers and taxpayers. Hopefully not re-installed as new, and
double dipping incentive money. I'm wondering if most incentive programs
have permanency requirements. Anyway, I sure hope the module removal crews
are good at sealing up roof penetrations. Seems to me there's a lot of blue
sky in their business plan.
I found the following blog interesting..
http://renergynow.blogspot.com/
Graham Owen
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:49:22 -1000
From: "Tom Elliot" <telliot at wagonmaker.com>
Subject: Re: Any comments about CitizenRE [RE-wrenches]
Lee,
How did you format this message for posting? I was able to read it with my
simple e-mail program but downloading it to Outlook Express produced a blank
message. I'm replying anyway since I read the bare text ahead of time but
thought you might want to know it was unreadable in Outlook.
As for CitizenRE, I posted something here a bit ago about them and actually
engaged one of their people in an e-mail conversation that basically went
nowhere. Apparently they are signing up people to be sales reps without
actually having anything to sell, or producing any actual product. The idea
may be viable, though I remain unconvinced, but this particular outfit
obviously has little intention of engaging in substantive discussions with
anyone who understands RE in any real way.
I'm now convinced they are a scam.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Bristol" <leebristol at gmail.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 11:15 AM
Subject: Any comments about CitizenRE [RE-wrenches]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:35:21 -0800
From: Ezra Auerbach <ezra at lasqueti.net>
Subject: Re: backup generator specs... [RE-wrenches]
I'd tell them to get one of those inverter/generators, I know Honda
makes them and I believe a couple of other their competitors make
them as well. I've been awed at how well the one I use regularly for
battery charging works. Can't recommend them high enough.
Ezra Auerbach
DragonSun Consulting
Lasqueti Island, B.C. V0R 2J0
ezra at lincsat.com
250 333 8650
On 12-Jan-07, at 8:21 AM, Jim Duncan wrote:
>
> A customer, building a small 1kW PV off-grid weekend home, insists
> that
> he can get a better deal on a backup generator than I and insists
> that I
> won't get to make that choice. So wanting to at least have some
> oversight in what he buys, told him I would forward some technical
> info
> to him since all generators are not created equally inverter friendly.
> Where can I find a list of specs, on the www, relating to the do's and
> dont's of generator selection? Combing thru the archives of the
> Wrenches
> site was really slow and cumbersome and only turned up specific genset
> related issues.
> Come to think of it, I could use an update on the subject with so many
> different brands currently on the market and the fact that I rarely do
> off-grid installs.
>
> Thanks as always
> Jim Duncan
> North Texas Renewable Energy Inc
> Fort Worth, Texas
>
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://lists.topica.com/lists/RE-
> wrenches/read
>
> List rules & how to change your email address: www.mrsharkey.com/
> wrenches/etiquette.php
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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End of RE-wrenches at topica.com digest, issue 2299
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