Positive ground with batteries? [RE-wrenches]
Phil Undercuffler
p.undercuffler at conergy.us
Fri Mar 17 16:38:29 PST 2006
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Christopher,
I thought that, although the FX and MX are not sensitive to
positive/negative bond issues, the Hub certainly is--at least, that is what
I've been told by your tech department. According to Steve H, the moment a
Hub is connected to two inverters in a positive grounded system, the magic
smoke portal opens. Who should I believe?
If the Hub is the limiting factor, this eliminates any positive grounded
systems greater than one inverter, and the inability to communicate with the
MX60 would be a limitation for a grid tied system.
Also, regarding color coding, the bonded (positive) conductor would need to
be white, gray or be marked with ribs or stripes. The negative (unbonded,
and connected to the breaker) could be any color under the rainbow other
than green or yellow/green, including good old fashioned black.
Phil U
Please note new phone extensions
---------------------------------------------------------
Phil Undercuffler
Technical Service Manger, ext. 0741
Conergy, Inc.
1730 Camino Carlos Rey Suite 103
Santa Fe NM 87507 USA
Tel 505-473-3800 ext 0741
Fax 505-473-2134
www.conergy.us
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-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power
[mailto:cfreitas at outbackpower.com]
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 3:29 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Positive ground with batteries? [RE-wrenches]
Geoff -
All of the OutBack equipment can be used in a positively grounded system
without "letting the smoke out" - but it is not specifically listed for
doing this and there are significant NEC issues which can not be
reconciled without us making a special "positive ground" version of the
MX60. So - yes it can (and has) been done with the OutBack products but
it will not be NEC code compliant.
The PV-GFP can be used with positive ground systems except the hook-up
of it needs to be modified slightly. It will work - but again its has
not been listed for use on positive ground systems.
The real issue I see is wiring up the system properly as a positive
ground requires that the the circuit breakers be installed in the
negative conductors and that the negative be color coded red while the
positive is white... which gets really confusing from my first hand
experience. Its also very likely that miswiring of the system would
damage components as we did not include this when we did the failure
mode analysis during the design.
Because of all this I recommend doing systems with SunPower modules as a
"microgrid" (also called a sunny island) configuration. This allows the
battery system to be wired up as normal with the negative grounded and
the high voltage batteryless grid-tie system as positive ground.
We have about 40 or so systems that I know of which are operating as
microgrids which have been done with a variety of grid-tie inverters and
sources of power (PV, wind, hydro, fuel cell...). Several of these are
quad inverter systems or larger. The only issue has been how to
regulate the battery voltage when the loads are small and the battery is
full - on most we simply do DC diversion control - so the excess power
is dumped. This can be done with the AUX output control provided on
each FX inverter or externally via C40 controllers (which many dealers
have sitting around because they upgraded systems to MX60s).
Another issue is how the system operates with the generator running or
when the system is hit with large AC loads such as AC units or big
pumps. SMA offers a field installable software version which widens the
operating windows (voltage and frequency) which solves this issue...
but I don't think anyone else has this available. If you are using an
inverter/charger type generator or a DC output generator this is not
probably going to be an issue.
We do now offer an enclosed version of the X-240 which also has a
cooling fan - called the PSX-240 - which is rated at 6000 watts and is
ideal for use with the Sunny Island inverters - the OutBacks will be
less expensive and will allow stacking of up to 10 inverters (36 kWAC)
with a total transfer switch rating of 300 amps at 120/240 VAC for a
total of 72 kWAC of transfer switch and pass through capacity.
The idle power consumption of the Exeltech MX system I think is fairly
high when you are talking about doing larger systems - we automatically
reduce the number of inverter running so the idle consumption of our 36
kW inverter system is less than 60 watts DC. The Exeltechs also do not
offer battery charging capability either...
>Darryl - This is not a residence - so no GFCI... but it is a grid tie...
>Chris F. hasn't chimed in yet, but I think that a positive ground on a
>GVFX will let the smoke out (you weren't talking about an ungrounded
>system were you?)
>I'd consider an Exeltech MX system if the OutBack can't go to positive
>ground.
Christopher
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030
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