Grid-Tie Inverters with Batteries [RE-wrenches]

Tue Aug 17 22:07:18 PDT 2004

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>
>Hello William,
>With all the news stories about rolling blackouts during the energy crisis,
>we too have found grid power to be fairly reliable in Los Angeles. However,
>I am surprised that your SW is doing as well as your ST. Our old ST
>customers swapped out when the new XR was offered and have seen a
>substantial improvement.

It is an ST/XR unit (upgraded, but not the "newest" version). It does
work a lot better but I think it still lags behind the later XR versions.
I actually have the unit because the original customer needed an
upgrade to SMA and I was able to do a swap with my own system,
thereby giving me the chance to see long-term performance.

/wk

>Joel Davidson
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "William Korthof" <wkorthof at earthlink.net>
>To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>; <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 4:47 PM
>Subject: Re: Grid-Tie Inverters with Batteries [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>
>
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>
>I live in the urban LA basin and have a SW system for my house,
>an ST/XR system on a guest house, and SMA system on another
>house around the corner. Not surprisingly, the SW system is
>outperforming the ST/XR system slightly. The SMA system is
>disadvantaged by flat panels and substantial western shading but
>still works well.
>
>The SW inverter does work well, but during three years it may
>have provided backup power during five brief interruptions at best.
>For the inefficiency, cost, and maintenance, I think solar-UPS
>is usually not "worth it" for our customers. In fact, most of our
>customers start losing interest in solar-UPS at a cost premium
>of $1,000-$2,000. At the more realistic $4,000-$8,000 premium,
>all but a few loose interest.
>
>
>/wk
>
>
>
>At 06:46 PM 8/16/2004, Allan Sindelar wrote:
>
> >
> >
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> >
> >Wrenches,
> >Having read all of the other responses to date, let me offer a slightly
> >different perspective. In the Santa Fe region we have reliable grid power
> >from PNM, primarily coal-fired with long-term purchase contracts
> >(environmental consequences not included in this post) at about $.08/kwhr
> >base residential rate, and no state incentives yet. So our typical client
> >has "green" as his or her primary motivation, not economics. The
> >maintenance-free aspect of the Sunny Boy batteryless systems has a major
> >appeal to this client type. We make it clear up front that if the utility
>is
> >down, so are they, but for the green client, pointing out that this is no
> >different than before they added solar is usually sufficient.
> >
> >We ask for "primary motivation" as one of our top initial questions of a
> >lead. If it's "to reduce my electric bill" we give them some good handouts
> >on efficiency improvements and gently show them the door. If it's "clean
> >solar power" and "power during outages" doesn't come up in the initial
> >answer, we encourage batteryless grid-tie. To date, only if "power during
> >outages" comes up as a primary response do batteries figure into the
> >equation and our design recommendations.
> >
> >The Outback GT option has only been available for a few months, and we're
> >having trouble getting product promptly anyway. We have been waiting for
> >good field reports and a track record before designing around the Beacon
>M5,
> >having been burned once with AEI. Up to now, if someone has asked for GT
> >with battery backup, we have told them to wait for awhile, as the current
> >technology (SW/GTI or, previously, AEI M5000) is inefficient and
>cumbersome,
> >and the next generation (GTFX) is just around the corner. Now with the
> >Outback we're ready to offer GT with backup (and long lead times).
> >
> >Also, b'less GT is easy to add to most homes' existing wiring. Adding
> >batteries requires a fair amount of field rewiring to allow a second
> >critical loads breaker panel. We can do it, but it's more labor and is hard
> >to work into a  fixed price proposal, which most customers prefer.
> >
> >My $.02...
> >Allan at Positive Energy
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Joel Davidson" <joeldavidson at earthlink.net>
> >
> >I've often said that if we did our grid-tied PV system now, we would use a
> >batteryless inverter instead of our SW4048 with batteries because today's
> >batteryless systems cost less and produce more energy. However, the new
> >grid/battery inverters have me thinking about the value of grid-tie PV with
> >battery backup.
> >
> >Just how often do power outages really happen? We have had only 3 grid
> >outages since June 1998 totaling 45 hours. Two outages were energy crisis
> >rolling blackouts and one was a neighborhood pole-mounted transformer that
> >burned out.
> >
> >Those of you with batteryless PV, how many grid/PV outages have you had in
> >how many years? What about your customers? Do you think the new grid-tie
> >inverters with batteries are worth the extra system cost?
> >Joel Davidson
> >
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