square-wave inverter vs the world [RE-wrenches]

Ray Walters ray at solarray.com
Sun Jun 13 23:26:34 PDT 2004


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Hi All;

Thanks for all the responses. First Mark:

No, it doesn't go into search with the AC output completely disconnected. 
Its two different units too (SW2524+ & SW2548+). Maybe its the altitude? 
(7000ft) I just set them back up to 16, or forget search since many 
customers have a hard time understanding search mode in the first place. 
(Why doesn't my 7 watt CF light come on?)
Kurt:
I agree the DRs are still a great choice for lower budget systems. I even 
use them on small ongrid stuff, since we don't have a buyback program and 
my customers'  concerns are power outages. I backup a few critical circuits 
and let the customer decide which circuits they want on solar or grid with 
three way breakers.

Todd:
I ain't too happy with X,  but is the buzz and efficiency loss on the 
microwave worth another $1000? That could be another 10 to 20% of total 
system cost on the small projects I use DRs on. Did you know DRs went down 
in price too. The 2424 is under $1000 now.

Jay:
The SW+ is OK.  Same output wave, noise, etc as the older SWs, but with 
much improved surge capability.
As far as I'm concerned, the search mode is the same (better fix that Mark, 
or X is guilty of false advertising!)
The AC wiring area is much nicer than any of the other stuff: Bigger lugs 
and more room. (One of the only things Outback could learn from X)
The programming is similar to the old SWs, so your customer should be 
familiar. ( I'm still waiting for an inverter that is easier to navigate. 
Maybe Outback will get theirs together enough with the rumored PC interface)
Reliability is not yet determined, but I'm banking that they used the 
proven SW design with some fairly minor modifications. I'll keep you all 
posted on failures.
The real selling point of the SW+ is the price.  I sell them for under 
$2000, making them a good choice for offgrid systems in the $10 to 20K range.
I want to try another Outback FX, but I'm going to need to wait till they 
get all the programming settled and the manual matches the programming, etc.

Ray


>The SW Plus units do search at 8W, though at that low power level the exact
>threshold may be off by a Watt or two. Any chance you have a phantom load
>that is not coming on below 16W?
>
>On the mod sine stuff, they definitely do have their place for low cost
>systems, though some TV's will show some horizontal ghosting bars due to the
>high frequency harmonics on the line.
>
>Best,
>
>Mark Edmunds
>Xantrex Technology Inc.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ray Walters [mailto:ray at solarray.com]
>Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 3:16 PM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: square-wave inverter vs the world [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>I know the list hates Mod square wave inverters, but I still use them all
>the time for systems under $10,000. They work, they surge, their efficient,
>and I have never lost any tools or equipment to the poor wave form in the 5
>years of running my whole shop on a DR2424, nor have any of my customers
>had any problems beyond some extra buzz. They definitely have their place.
>I am using more of the SW plus series; when  charging from a generator it
>definitely is more efficient than a mod sine, but I have never been able to
>get it to search below the 16 watt setting. Any other wrenches have a trick
>to get the SW+ to search at the 8 watt setting as advertised?
>
>Ray
>
>
>
>   be At 01:44 PM 6/10/2004, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------
> >Let University of Phoenix make 2004 your year. Evening,
> >weekend or FlexNet® classes ­ over 130 locations. Look
> >into our programs and get the degree that gets you going!
> >http://click.topica.com/caaciq1bz8QcsbeuiVOa/UOP
> >-----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Hi Todd,
> >
> >I generally don't use square wave inverters, either. The exception is for
> >small, infrequently used applications, where the budget is a factor. This
> >particular system is a PV retrofit in an old RV, which the recently-retired
> >owners are going to live in full-time. There aren't many AC loads. The
>micro
> >and TV are my major concerns for performance. The difference in price
> >between the SW inverter and a square-wave could be 20% of the overall
>system
> >cost. If the TV and micro run on the cheaper inverter, then why not?
> >
> >My customers have already expressed shock at my initial estimate cost. They
> >now want me to reduce the array size and run the generator more. In my mind
> >it's better to spend the $$ on PV's rather than the inverter. Less
> >generator noise and exhaust is a good thing.
> >
> >-Kelly
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Todd Cory" <toddcory at finestplanet.com>
> >To: <kelly at whidbeysunwind.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:16 AM
> >Subject: Re: Plasma TV on square-wave inverter [RE-wrenches]
> >
> >
> > > Hi Kelly,
> > >
> > > Just a heads up that I NEVER put in square wave inverters anymore. The
> >price
> > > difference between these pieces of junk and a nice SW inverter is
> >insignificant
> > > when you consider the advantages of having real sine wave power for the
> >client.
> > > No more "will it work on a square wave" questions. No more hum and buzz
> >es, no
> > > more smoked (whoops it doesn't work on "our" power) events, higher
> >efficiencies
> > > on most appliances.
> > >
> > > Todd
> > > Todd Cory
> > > KE6SXS
> > > toddcory at finestplanet.com
> > > Mt. Shasta Energy Services>
> > >
> > >
> > > Kelly Keilwitz wrote:
> > >
> > > > Jeff & Tom,
> > > > It turns out that my customers know less about plasma TV's than I do.
> > > > What they really want is a "flat (LCD) screen". I didn't know enough
>to
> > > > correct them. Now I do. Thanks .
> > > >
> > > > I'll definitely be interested in hearing if the LCD TV operates OK on
> >the
> > > > U-series inverter. I would think that the LCD TV converts the AC to
>DC,
> >like
> > > > my LCD computer monitor.
> > > >
> > > > -Kelly
> > > > Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
> > > > Whidbey Sun & Wind
> > > > Renewable Energy Systems
> > > > kelly at whidbeysunwind.com
> > > > Ph & Fax: 360-678-7131
> > > > Renewable Energy Now!
> > > >
> >
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