irradiance meters [RE-wrenches]
Geoff Greenfield
Geoff at Third-Sun.Com
Thu Oct 21 13:12:37 PDT 2004
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Bill - your course sounds like a great excuse to visit the left coast...
try and schedule it in the winter/slow period... (slower period? or just as
busy but with frozen finger tips period)
Matt- the Fronius has an irradiance option (along with other gizmos and a
weather suite) - we did a full on fronius install and found the unit to be
way off... until we calibrated the software with the multiplier on the back
of the sensor... but since I STILL don't have the handheld meter I keep
seeing advertised in solar today, I don't know how accurate it is. I
suspect that it is pretty rough... but it fits the educational goal of that
project (as does the module temp sensor). It is pretty much a tiny cell...
and after the math is probably the most expensive cost/watt solar
installation we have ever done!
Sincerely,
Geoff Greenfield
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer TM
GLREA Certified Photovoltaic Systems Integrator/Installer License Number
0211-01
THIRD SUN SOLAR AND WIND POWER Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701
Phone (740) 597-3111
Fax (740) 597-1548
www.third-sun.com
-----Original Message-----
From: RE-wrenches at topica.com [mailto:RE-wrenches at topica.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 7:08 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Digest for RE-wrenches at topica.com, issue 1593
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Generator stuff
By Roy at Four-winds-energy.com
Re: Generator stuff
By cpae1 at direcway.com
Re: Generator stuff
By solarone at charter.net
Re: Generator stuff
By solarone at charter.net
RE: Performance of Large Outback system
By billb at endecon.com
RE: Generator stuff
By ozsolar at ipa.net
RE: Performance of Large Outback system/Insolation meters
By starpower4u at juno.com
Dead Kyocera module
By dana at solarwork.com
RE: Advanced PV Course
By ipl at sover.net
Re: Performance of Large Outback system
By solarone at charter.net
Re: Generator stuff
By solarone at charter.net
Re: Performance of Large Outback system
By joeldavidson at earthlink.net
Re: Performance of Large Outback system
By joeldavidson at earthlink.net
RE: Performance of Large Outback system
By billb at endecon.com
RE: Advanced PV Course
By dmpratt at sbcglobal.net
SunDanzer Max Input Voltage
By ozsolar at ipa.net
RE: Advanced PV Course
By dmpratt at sbcglobal.net
Re: SunDanzer Max Input Voltage
By info at es-ee.com
Re: SunDanzer Max Input Voltage
By ian.woofenden at homepower.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 08:53:04 -0400
From: Four Winds <Roy at Four-winds-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
Matt,
Run screaming from the showroom now! I had 3 systems which used that
same Generac unit and all 3 had frequent and annoying "glitches" . They
ranged from auto start unreliability, to waveform problems to over
regulation of the voltage.
We have some real good generator service guys out here who (after MANY
service calls) finally gave up on these machines. We came to the
conclusion that Generac may be great for it's intended purpose....home
standby....but they are sadly lacking for inverter system applications!
All 3 of these troubled system owners have now switched over to Onan
generators (15 to 20KW range) with great results.
FYI...we have 16 systems out there right now which use Onan
generators....very few problems over all.
Just my opinion......
--
Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46
Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747
www.four-winds-energy.com
NYSERDA eligible PV installer for PON 716
NYSERDA eligible wind installer for PON 792
Matt Tritt wrote:
>
>
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>
>Off-grid cohorts,
>
>Has anybody had experience with the (gulp) Generac Elite Home Standby 15 kW
vapor fuel 1800 RPM units? From the technical info they would seem to be a
pretty good candidate to replace the sorely missed Kohler 12 RY liquid
cooled unit.
>
>They even appear to use the same little Ford industrial 4 cylinder engine
as the Kohler. The Elite model comes without the un-needed grid-sensing
transfer switch.
>
>Very interesting but I really need some actual info on these things.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Matt T
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 07:14:05 -0700
From: Frank Fowler <cpae1 at direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
Matt,
No experience with that peticular Generac model, but from my dealings with
my son who owns a small engine repair shop, any Generac genset is suspect. I
have lots of experience with the Coleman line, model (PM400911). My son has
sold many of these to my customers with very litlle problems. They are Honda
powered, and connect to inverters very well. The PM400911 is only 9.5 kw,
and is propane/Nat. gas. If you are interested, go to;
www.colemanpowermate.com.
SUNcerely,
Frank Fowler
Crystal Pines Alternative Energy
530-532-1972
cpae1 at direcway.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Tritt" <solarone at charter.net>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 8:05 PM
Subject: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
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Off-grid cohorts,
Has anybody had experience with the (gulp) Generac Elite Home Standby 15 kW
vapor fuel 1800 RPM units? From the technical info they would seem to be a
pretty good candidate to replace the sorely missed Kohler 12 RY liquid
cooled unit.
They even appear to use the same little Ford industrial 4 cylinder engine as
the Kohler. The Elite model comes without the un-needed grid-sensing
transfer switch.
Very interesting but I really need some actual info on these things.
Thanks in advance,
Matt T
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 08:21:04 -0700
From: "Matt Tritt" <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
Thanks Roy,
I'm glad I asked. They sure look good though; very much like the old
Kohler 12 RY, same engine!
I've always been a poo-poo sayer about Generac, but mainly their air
cooled, high RPM models, and stick mainly with Lister and Onan.
Thanks again
Matt T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy Butler, Four Winds RE" <roy at four-winds-energy.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 5:53 AM
Subject: Re: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
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Matt,
Run screaming from the showroom now! I had 3 systems which used that
same Generac unit and all 3 had frequent and annoying "glitches" . They
ranged from auto start unreliability, to waveform problems to over
regulation of the voltage.
We have some real good generator service guys out here who (after MANY
service calls) finally gave up on these machines. We came to the
conclusion that Generac may be great for it's intended purpose....home
standby....but they are sadly lacking for inverter system applications!
All 3 of these troubled system owners have now switched over to Onan
generators (15 to 20KW range) with great results.
FYI...we have 16 systems out there right now which use Onan
generators....very few problems over all.
Just my opinion......
--
Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46
Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747
www.four-winds-energy.com
NYSERDA eligible PV installer for PON 716
NYSERDA eligible wind installer for PON 792
Matt Tritt wrote:
>
>
>Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>Click here for your Golden Tee CD ROM
>http://click.topica.com/caacJzobz8QcsbAlljZa/PermissionData
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Off-grid cohorts,
>
>Has anybody had experience with the (gulp) Generac Elite Home Standby 15
kW vapor fuel 1800 RPM units? From the technical info they would seem to be
a pretty good candidate to replace the sorely missed Kohler 12 RY liquid
cooled unit.
>
>They even appear to use the same little Ford industrial 4 cylinder engine
as the Kohler. The Elite model comes without the un-needed grid-sensing
transfer switch.
>
>Very interesting but I really need some actual info on these things.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Matt T
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 08:29:13 -0700
From: "Matt Tritt" <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
Thanks to you too Frank,
I appreciate the info on Coleman, however I need to stay with an 1800 RPM
unit for a number of reasons. I also like to stay with liquid cooled sets
now that Deutz can't sell their air cooled Diesel engines in California.
Too bad that Generac is still to be avoided.
Matt T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Fowler" <cpae1 at direcway.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
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Matt,
No experience with that peticular Generac model, but from my dealings with
my son who owns a small engine repair shop, any Generac genset is suspect.
I
have lots of experience with the Coleman line, model (PM400911). My son
has
sold many of these to my customers with very litlle problems. They are
Honda
powered, and connect to inverters very well. The PM400911 is only 9.5 kw,
and is propane/Nat. gas. If you are interested, go to;
www.colemanpowermate.com.
SUNcerely,
Frank Fowler
Crystal Pines Alternative Energy
530-532-1972
cpae1 at direcway.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Tritt" <solarone at charter.net>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 8:05 PM
Subject: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------------------
Off-grid cohorts,
Has anybody had experience with the (gulp) Generac Elite Home Standby 15
kW
vapor fuel 1800 RPM units? From the technical info they would seem to be a
pretty good candidate to replace the sorely missed Kohler 12 RY liquid
cooled unit.
They even appear to use the same little Ford industrial 4 cylinder engine
as
the Kohler. The Elite model comes without the un-needed grid-sensing
transfer switch.
Very interesting but I really need some actual info on these things.
Thanks in advance,
Matt T
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:24:11 -0700
From: "Bill Brooks" <billb at endecon.com>
Subject: RE: Performance of Large Outback system [RE-wrenches]
Darryl, Matt, and Doug,
Where are your irradiance measurements? How do any of your output readings
have any meaning without an irradiance measurement? Do any of you own a
Daystar meter or do you have a spare module that you can get a Isc
measurement from? Carl brings an important point about temperature, but it
is a much lower order effect than irradiance. No power measurement should
even be written down without a corresponding irradiance measurement.
Forgive me for bringing up my pet peeve again, but I recently came from an
installation of one of the most knowledgeable installers in the state. The
array wasn't working well so they suggested removing the 3 C-40 charge
controllers and installing 3 MX-60 charge controllers in their place (a very
expensive proposition as you all know).
The problem had nothing to do with the C-40s. A quick check of the string
currents showed a 3:1 differential from the best string to the worst string.
As it turned out with further inspection (with a $21K Daystar curve tracer
that I don't expect anyone to own), that every single string had failed
modules. The array will be replaced, but the sad thing is that this "very
knowledgeable" installer could not tell that the array was a total mess and
suggested a fix that did absolutely no good.
My plans are to design an advance PV Design, Installation, and
Troubleshooting course. Is there any interest from current installers? I've
been working with grid-connected systems for over 16 years now, and I'm
learning new things every single day.
Understand that I am not trying to be patronizing about this--I'm just
trying to get installers to do things properly so that they can be confident
with the results of any measurements they make on their systems. Please go
back and send some information on performance that is related to irradiance
and temperature. I'm sure everyone on the list is interested in informative
results.
Bill.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:33:37 -0500
From: "Travis Creswell" <ozsolar at ipa.net>
Subject: RE: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
We just installed a 12RES Kohler. It is a 3600 RPM unit and has a Kohler
engine. $3275 includes the Kohler technician startup which is required for
the 2000 hr/ 2 year warranty.
My application is a part time off grid residence which I expect to be
several 100 hrs or less per year run time. It comes with a battery, 2 wire
start and a very nice enclosure (super quiet). I maxed out the SW4024 Dual
inverter charge rate and turned on another 3000-5000 watts of loads. With
all that on it didn't even grunt when the 3/4 hp well pump started.
I believe the Generacs require their transfer switch to run as all of the
electronics for the generator are built into it. That might present a
serious problem if you are using it for an off grid application.
Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Tritt [mailto:solarone at charter.net]
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 10:29 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
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Thanks to you too Frank,
I appreciate the info on Coleman, however I need to stay with an 1800 RPM
unit for a number of reasons. I also like to stay with liquid cooled sets
now that Deutz can't sell their air cooled Diesel engines in California.
Too bad that Generac is still to be avoided.
Matt T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Fowler" <cpae1 at direcway.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
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Matt,
No experience with that peticular Generac model, but from my dealings with
my son who owns a small engine repair shop, any Generac genset is suspect.
I
have lots of experience with the Coleman line, model (PM400911). My son
has
sold many of these to my customers with very litlle problems. They are
Honda
powered, and connect to inverters very well. The PM400911 is only 9.5 kw,
and is propane/Nat. gas. If you are interested, go to;
www.colemanpowermate.com.
SUNcerely,
Frank Fowler
Crystal Pines Alternative Energy
530-532-1972
cpae1 at direcway.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Tritt" <solarone at charter.net>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 8:05 PM
Subject: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Off-grid cohorts,
Has anybody had experience with the (gulp) Generac Elite Home Standby 15
kW
vapor fuel 1800 RPM units? From the technical info they would seem to be a
pretty good candidate to replace the sorely missed Kohler 12 RY liquid
cooled unit.
They even appear to use the same little Ford industrial 4 cylinder engine
as
the Kohler. The Elite model comes without the un-needed grid-sensing
transfer switch.
Very interesting but I really need some actual info on these things.
Thanks in advance,
Matt T
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:36:05 GMT
From: "Jeff Oldham" <starpower4u at juno.com>
Subject: RE: Performance of Large Outback system/Insolation meters
I have to echo Bill's comment about proper readings, I too find it
frustrating to read seat-of-pants impressions (I'm plenty guilty too!). I
would suggest folks take solid data very soon after the array is installed
and put the data in your customers file. I have my installers take basic
readings, V & I of each string and log it. I go for the PG&E inspection
after things have been out in the sun for a week or so and take the
folowing: Cell temp, Insolation, time and date, V & I, array angle, inverter
output and grid voltage. This also goes into the customer file, I feel
strongly that we need a starting point benchmark for each job from which to
judge performance on down the road. I'm talking less than $300 in equipment
here, c'mon!
If anyone is going to be at Solar Power 2004 come on by and introduce
yourself at booth 22, love to say hi!
-jeff
>From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:15:50 -0600
From: "Dana Orzel" <dana at solarwork.com>
Subject: Dead Kyocera module
Kyocera replaced over [70] J-51's here in this area [ SW Colorado ] with
low output, browning on the front and bubbles on the back stating that it
was a manufacturing problem and this was 7-8 years down the road from date
of installation. My hat is off to them for their warranty.
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Dave,
I've had a small number of those J48s go hooey as well.
Most of mine had a circular browning on the face of the module caused
by the J-box. I assume that is where the string contacts failed.
They make a nice coffee table or wall art, but aside from that....
Good Luck, bob-O
>Recently serviced an old job and found a Kyocera module gone kaput. .05
>volts OC, zero amps SC.
>Was part of a 10 module 12v array. All other modules putting out power
>within 10% to 12% of 16.7V and 2.88 Amps.
>It is a LA361 J48 Kyocera module. 48 watts. Made in 1990 so no warranty
(ten
>yrs at that time).
>No visible signs of problems.
>
>Any ideas on what the problem could be? And how to correct it?
>
>Dave
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:44:21 -0400
From: "David Palumbo" <ipl at sover.net>
Subject: RE: Advanced PV Course
Bill,
Yes I would be interested in your advanced course. I'm sure it would give me
my continuing education component for NABCEP re-certification and update me
on all the latest install and trouble shooting techniques. I work in the
Northern part of Vermont, very rural, all off-grid installs. I have not done
a grid tie system since 2000. I'm sure that I will do more grid ties in the
future so this course would be ideal for me.
Best Regards,
David Palumbo
Independent Power
Hyde park, VT
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
(802)-888-7194
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:24 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Performance of Large Outback system [RE-wrenches]
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Darryl, Matt, and Doug,
Where are your irradiance measurements? How do any of your output readings
have any meaning without an irradiance measurement? Do any of you own a
Daystar meter or do you have a spare module that you can get a Isc
measurement from? Carl brings an important point about temperature, but it
is a much lower order effect than irradiance. No power measurement should
even be written down without a corresponding irradiance measurement.
Forgive me for bringing up my pet peeve again, but I recently came from an
installation of one of the most knowledgeable installers in the state. The
array wasn't working well so they suggested removing the 3 C-40 charge
controllers and installing 3 MX-60 charge controllers in their place (a very
expensive proposition as you all know).
The problem had nothing to do with the C-40s. A quick check of the string
currents showed a 3:1 differential from the best string to the worst string.
As it turned out with further inspection (with a $21K Daystar curve tracer
that I don't expect anyone to own), that every single string had failed
modules. The array will be replaced, but the sad thing is that this "very
knowledgeable" installer could not tell that the array was a total mess and
suggested a fix that did absolutely no good.
My plans are to design an advance PV Design, Installation, and
Troubleshooting course. Is there any interest from current installers? I've
been working with grid-connected systems for over 16 years now, and I'm
learning new things every single day.
Understand that I am not trying to be patronizing about this--I'm just
trying to get installers to do things properly so that they can be confident
with the results of any measurements they make on their systems. Please go
back and send some information on performance that is related to irradiance
and temperature. I'm sure everyone on the list is interested in informative
results.
Bill.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:15:24 -0700
From: "Matt Tritt" <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: Performance of Large Outback system [RE-wrenches]
Another good point, Bill.
No, we didn't take irradiance readings at this site. I know that it's
slightly iff'y and subjective, but I can say that it was extremely clear and
bright (an HOT) the day we observed the readings from the SB's. Another site
I visited (a totally different situation involving 12 Sharp 175's and an
MX60) was performing very well - but it's also on a tracker.
Got any suggestions for a meter that doesn't cost as much as a new pickup?
It would be cool if inverter companies would offer an option for an
irradiance sensor that could be mounted at the array and read on the
inverter display. Hell, why not a thermometer as well?
Matt T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Brooks" <billb at endecon.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 9:24 AM
Subject: RE: Performance of Large Outback system [RE-wrenches]
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Darryl, Matt, and Doug,
Where are your irradiance measurements? How do any of your output readings
have any meaning without an irradiance measurement? Do any of you own a
Daystar meter or do you have a spare module that you can get a Isc
measurement from? Carl brings an important point about temperature, but it
is a much lower order effect than irradiance. No power measurement should
even be written down without a corresponding irradiance measurement.
Forgive me for bringing up my pet peeve again, but I recently came from an
installation of one of the most knowledgeable installers in the state. The
array wasn't working well so they suggested removing the 3 C-40 charge
controllers and installing 3 MX-60 charge controllers in their place (a
very
expensive proposition as you all know).
The problem had nothing to do with the C-40s. A quick check of the string
currents showed a 3:1 differential from the best string to the worst
string.
As it turned out with further inspection (with a $21K Daystar curve tracer
that I don't expect anyone to own), that every single string had failed
modules. The array will be replaced, but the sad thing is that this "very
knowledgeable" installer could not tell that the array was a total mess
and
suggested a fix that did absolutely no good.
My plans are to design an advance PV Design, Installation, and
Troubleshooting course. Is there any interest from current installers?
I've
been working with grid-connected systems for over 16 years now, and I'm
learning new things every single day.
Understand that I am not trying to be patronizing about this--I'm just
trying to get installers to do things properly so that they can be
confident
with the results of any measurements they make on their systems. Please go
back and send some information on performance that is related to
irradiance
and temperature. I'm sure everyone on the list is interested in
informative
results.
Bill.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:22:10 -0700
From: "Matt Tritt" <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
Travis,
The Generac I'm talking about is an 1800 RPM unit with the same engine, a
4 cylinder Ford industrial, the 12 RY used to have before they went
air-cooled on us. It comes without a built-in X-fer switch so there's no
prob. there. It's still a Generac however.
Matt T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar" <ozsolar at ipa.net>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 9:33 AM
Subject: RE: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
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We just installed a 12RES Kohler. It is a 3600 RPM unit and has a Kohler
engine. $3275 includes the Kohler technician startup which is required
for
the 2000 hr/ 2 year warranty.
My application is a part time off grid residence which I expect to be
several 100 hrs or less per year run time. It comes with a battery, 2
wire
start and a very nice enclosure (super quiet). I maxed out the SW4024
Dual
inverter charge rate and turned on another 3000-5000 watts of loads. With
all that on it didn't even grunt when the 3/4 hp well pump started.
I believe the Generacs require their transfer switch to run as all of the
electronics for the generator are built into it. That might present a
serious problem if you are using it for an off grid application.
Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Tritt [mailto:solarone at charter.net]
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 10:29 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
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Thanks to you too Frank,
I appreciate the info on Coleman, however I need to stay with an 1800
RPM
unit for a number of reasons. I also like to stay with liquid cooled sets
now that Deutz can't sell their air cooled Diesel engines in California.
Too bad that Generac is still to be avoided.
Matt T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Fowler" <cpae1 at direcway.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
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Matt,
No experience with that peticular Generac model, but from my dealings
with
my son who owns a small engine repair shop, any Generac genset is
suspect.
I
have lots of experience with the Coleman line, model (PM400911). My son
has
sold many of these to my customers with very litlle problems. They are
Honda
powered, and connect to inverters very well. The PM400911 is only 9.5
kw,
and is propane/Nat. gas. If you are interested, go to;
www.colemanpowermate.com.
SUNcerely,
Frank Fowler
Crystal Pines Alternative Energy
530-532-1972
cpae1 at direcway.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Tritt" <solarone at charter.net>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 8:05 PM
Subject: Generator stuff [RE-wrenches]
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Off-grid cohorts,
Has anybody had experience with the (gulp) Generac Elite Home Standby 15
kW
vapor fuel 1800 RPM units? From the technical info they would seem to be
a
pretty good candidate to replace the sorely missed Kohler 12 RY liquid
cooled unit.
They even appear to use the same little Ford industrial 4 cylinder
engine
as
the Kohler. The Elite model comes without the un-needed grid-sensing
transfer switch.
Very interesting but I really need some actual info on these things.
Thanks in advance,
Matt T
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 14:58:03 -0700
From: "Joel Davidson" <joeldavidson at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Performance of Large Outback system [RE-wrenches]
Were the failed modules Kyocera?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Brooks" <billb at endecon.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 9:24 AM
Subject: RE: Performance of Large Outback system [RE-wrenches]
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Darryl, Matt, and Doug,
Where are your irradiance measurements? How do any of your output readings
have any meaning without an irradiance measurement? Do any of you own a
Daystar meter or do you have a spare module that you can get a Isc
measurement from? Carl brings an important point about temperature, but it
is a much lower order effect than irradiance. No power measurement should
even be written down without a corresponding irradiance measurement.
Forgive me for bringing up my pet peeve again, but I recently came from an
installation of one of the most knowledgeable installers in the state. The
array wasn't working well so they suggested removing the 3 C-40 charge
controllers and installing 3 MX-60 charge controllers in their place (a very
expensive proposition as you all know).
The problem had nothing to do with the C-40s. A quick check of the string
currents showed a 3:1 differential from the best string to the worst string.
As it turned out with further inspection (with a $21K Daystar curve tracer
that I don't expect anyone to own), that every single string had failed
modules. The array will be replaced, but the sad thing is that this "very
knowledgeable" installer could not tell that the array was a total mess and
suggested a fix that did absolutely no good.
My plans are to design an advance PV Design, Installation, and
Troubleshooting course. Is there any interest from current installers? I've
been working with grid-connected systems for over 16 years now, and I'm
learning new things every single day.
Understand that I am not trying to be patronizing about this--I'm just
trying to get installers to do things properly so that they can be confident
with the results of any measurements they make on their systems. Please go
back and send some information on performance that is related to irradiance
and temperature. I'm sure everyone on the list is interested in informative
results.
Bill.
Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:16:40 -0700
From: "Joel Davidson" <joeldavidson at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Performance of Large Outback system [RE-wrenches]
For quick solar irradiance, cell temperature and ambient temperature
readings:
Daystar Solar Meter $139 at http://www.zianet.com/daystar/solar_meters.html
TPI Infared Thermometer #371 $90 at Fry's Electronics
http://shop4.outpost.com/product/2828714?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
or less at eBay
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=TPI+Infared+Thermometer&btnG=Google+Sea
rch
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Tritt" <solarone at charter.net>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: Performance of Large Outback system [RE-wrenches]
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Another good point, Bill.
No, we didn't take irradiance readings at this site. I know that it's
slightly iff'y and subjective, but I can say that it was extremely clear and
bright (an HOT) the day we observed the readings from the SB's. Another site
I visited (a totally different situation involving 12 Sharp 175's and an
MX60) was performing very well - but it's also on a tracker.
Got any suggestions for a meter that doesn't cost as much as a new pickup?
It would be cool if inverter companies would offer an option for an
irradiance sensor that could be mounted at the array and read on the
inverter display. Hell, why not a thermometer as well?
Matt T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Brooks" <billb at endecon.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 9:24 AM
Subject: RE: Performance of Large Outback system [RE-wrenches]
Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor:
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Darryl, Matt, and Doug,
Where are your irradiance measurements? How do any of your output readings
have any meaning without an irradiance measurement? Do any of you own a
Daystar meter or do you have a spare module that you can get a Isc
measurement from? Carl brings an important point about temperature, but it
is a much lower order effect than irradiance. No power measurement should
even be written down without a corresponding irradiance measurement.
Forgive me for bringing up my pet peeve again, but I recently came from an
installation of one of the most knowledgeable installers in the state. The
array wasn't working well so they suggested removing the 3 C-40 charge
controllers and installing 3 MX-60 charge controllers in their place (a
very
expensive proposition as you all know).
The problem had nothing to do with the C-40s. A quick check of the string
currents showed a 3:1 differential from the best string to the worst
string.
As it turned out with further inspection (with a $21K Daystar curve tracer
that I don't expect anyone to own), that every single string had failed
modules. The array will be replaced, but the sad thing is that this "very
knowledgeable" installer could not tell that the array was a total mess
and
suggested a fix that did absolutely no good.
My plans are to design an advance PV Design, Installation, and
Troubleshooting course. Is there any interest from current installers?
I've
been working with grid-connected systems for over 16 years now, and I'm
learning new things every single day.
Understand that I am not trying to be patronizing about this--I'm just
trying to get installers to do things properly so that they can be
confident
with the results of any measurements they make on their systems. Please go
back and send some information on performance that is related to
irradiance
and temperature. I'm sure everyone on the list is interested in
informative
results.
Bill.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 16:47:03 -0700
From: "Bill Brooks" <billb at endecon.com>
Subject: RE: Performance of Large Outback system [RE-wrenches]
Joel,
The module manufacturer, as you can well understand, has not released a
broad press release on the issue. They are working with the installers who
have installed their product to determine if their is a warranty issue on a
case-by-case basis.
Bill.
-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Davidson [mailto:joeldavidson at earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 2:58 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Performance of Large Outback system [RE-wrenches]
Were the failed modules Kyocera?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:49:42 -0700
From: "Doug Pratt" <dmpratt at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: Advanced PV Course [RE-wrenches]
Bill,
I'd be very interested in an Advanced PV course if you're teaching it!
Maybe I could even learn how to use one of those fancy...what do ya call
it...irradedance meters huh? :)
(My irradiance was/is 85 lumens/sq.m. when I'm seeing ~4000 watts output
from my 5568 watt array. And yes, you're right as usual. Wattage without
irradiance is meaningless. I humbly beg your pardon.)
Cheers,
Doug Pratt
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:24 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Performance of Large Outback system [RE-wrenches]
<snip>
My plans are to design an advance PV Design, Installation, and
Troubleshooting course. Is there any interest from current installers?
I've
been working with grid-connected systems for over 16 years now, and I'm
learning new things every single day.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:52:00 -0500
From: "Travis Creswell" <ozsolar at ipa.net>
Subject: SunDanzer Max Input Voltage
Hello All,
The manual makes no mention that I can find of the maximum voltage a
SunDanzer can take. I've got system out there where we could be approaching
31 volts to bulk charge in the winter and am curious if this will be an
issue with the SunDanzer.
Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services, Inc.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:52:19 -0700
From: "Doug Pratt" <dmpratt at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: Advanced PV Course [RE-wrenches]
Whoops...that shoulda been 850 *watts*/sq.m -dp
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Pratt [mailto:dmpratt at sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 5:50 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches at topica.com'
Subject: RE: Advanced PV Course [RE-wrenches]
Bill,
I'd be very interested in an Advanced PV course if you're teaching it!
Maybe I could even learn how to use one of those fancy...what do ya call
it...irradedance meters huh? :)
(My irradiance was/is 85 lumens/sq.m. when I'm seeing ~4000 watts output
from my 5568 watt array. And yes, you're right as usual. Wattage without
irradiance is meaningless. I humbly beg your pardon.)
Cheers,
Doug Pratt
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:24 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Performance of Large Outback system [RE-wrenches]
<snip>
My plans are to design an advance PV Design, Installation, and
Troubleshooting course. Is there any interest from current installers?
I've
been working with grid-connected systems for over 16 years now, and I'm
learning new things every single day.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:43:33 -0700
From: Kurt Albershardt <info at es-ee.com>
Subject: Re: SunDanzer Max Input Voltage [RE-wrenches]
--On Monday, October 18, 2004 7:52 PM -0500 "Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar"
<ozsolar at ipa.net> wrote:
>
> The manual makes no mention that I can find of the maximum voltage a
> SunDanzer can take. I've got system out there where we could be
approaching
> 31 volts to bulk charge in the winter and am curious if this will be an
> issue with the SunDanzer.
TTBOMK they are using the standard Danfoss control modules, which have a
Vmax of 31.5V DC.
.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:24:36 -0700
From: Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden at homepower.com>
Subject: Re: SunDanzer Max Input Voltage [RE-wrenches]
Travis,
Our SunDanzer has seen 31 V on occasion and it's still running just fine.
Ian
>Hello All,
>
>The manual makes no mention that I can find of the maximum voltage a
>SunDanzer can take. I've got system out there where we could be
approaching
>31 volts to bulk charge in the winter and am curious if this will be an
>issue with the SunDanzer.
>
>Travis Creswell
>Ozark Energy Services, Inc.
--
Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden at homepower.com>, Senior Editor
Home Power magazine; Subscriptions: $22.50 per year, PO Box 520,
Ashland, OR 97520 USA
800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220, or download current issue at
<http://www.homepower.com>
------------------------------
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