Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]

Sat Apr 26 04:46:44 PDT 2003

Bill,

Thanks for your reply. I agree that no equipment grounding on the array is a
bad move and didn't mean to smack any hornet's nests with my note. This type
of protest just seemed a bit out of character for you, but the news that you
have not been denied warranty claims on drilled modules sure makes this
practice less risky than I had perceived. Thanks!

E. H.

E. H. Roy
Solar Works, Inc.
64 Main Street
Montpelier, VT 05602
1-800-339-7804 ext. 306
ehroy at solar-works.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 9:26 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]

Mr. Roy,

The manufacturer will always tell you it voids the warranty, but unless they
can show a reasonable doubt that your hole caused the failure, an installer
would be foolish to accept that explanation for not honoring a warranty. I
have had three modules replaced myself for partial failures--each had holes
drilled, and the manufacturer honored the warranty.

I don't like telling people to drill holes and I warn them that the
manufacturer may give them a hard time on a warranty claim, but this is an
active protest against an unresponsive manufacturing industry. They have
known about this issue for many years, and we continue to be stuck with
fixing the crappy way modules are grounded and I'm fed up. Apparently now
there are some manufacturers finally taking this seriously. If you're overly
concerned that the manufacturer is going to use the hole as an excuse to
deny your warranty, don't do it.

The problem I see in the field is that installers don't do it at all, and
that is much worse than drilling holes in the end of the module. Of course,
the danger of drilling the module frame is hitting the back skin--so that
must be protected to prevent disturbing the back skin.

Good question and thanks for calling me on it.

Bill.

-----Original Message-----
From: EH Roy [mailto:ehroy at solar-works.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 1:40 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]

Bill,

I am all for putting pressure on module manufacturers to put a decent
grounding mechanism in an accessible location on module frames (or rack
manufacturers to develop a listed means of creating continuity between
module and rail) but I am quite surprised that you are teaching people to
drill holes in the end of the module when I think we have all been told that
voids the module warranty.

When a module manufacturer receives a failed module that doesn't put out
warranted power after 15 years of use (it happens) and that manufacturer
denies replacement because it claims the warranty was voided by a
customer-drilled end hole, who pays for the replacement module? The
customer? The installer who drilled the hole? Or the guy who taught the
installer to do that?

E. H. Roy
Solar Works, Inc.
64 Main Street
Montpelier, VT 05602
1-800-339-7804 ext. 306
ehroy at solar-works.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 3:42 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]

Jay,

My experience is that manufacturers have universally not paid much attention
to this issue as seen with the various lame grounding methods that they
allow according to their listing.

The listing only allows connection at the grounding point. That's a real
pain for roof mounted systems. I've gotten fed up with manufacturers being
unresponsive and have started teach people to use lay-in lugs on the end of
the module for ease of installation. Manufacturers have all kinds of
heartburn when you start drilling holes in the end of their modules, but
maybe that will drive them to drilling the hole for us.

Bill.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Peltz, Peltz Power [mailto:jay at asis.com]
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:09 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]

Hi John and Bill,

OK, so here is my question.

I'm holding in my hand a "grounding screw" from Sharp/Schott.  This screw is
SS, is machine thread, and is really really small.  It is so small that it
will rattle around in the listed grounding hole.  Yes it has a star washer.

How is using this any different than installing a star washer on the frame
either under the mounting frame or a surface attachment for the top down
style?

And if the manufacture gives me a grounding screw, can I use anything else
without voiding the UL warranty?  If so, can I install the ground anywhere,
or do I have to use the approved grounding hole?

Thanks

jay.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Berdner" <jberdner at sma-america.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 10:55 AM
Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]

> Jay:
>
> The problem with grounding through the frame is that many of the frames
> are anodized aluminum (read as excellent insulator).  Unless the
> structure has been evaluated as a grounding member you can't rely on it
> to provide the equipment ground.  I think this could be solved with
> insulation piercing hardware, e.g. star washers, but so far none of the
> structure manufacturers has developed this concept to the point that it
> can be listed as a means of grounding.  In absence of Listed "systems"
> that provide equivalent grounding means, the Code says you have to run a
> ground wire to every module to make sure it stays grounded.  The UL
> requirement for a ground is 0.1 Ohms at 60 Hz.  Given that we are
> talking about dc I think UL would also want to see a dc impedance
> measurement as well.
>
> Based on my own experience I have measured grounding impedances far
> above this level when using only the frames for grounding.  Others such
> as J. Wiles and B. Brooks have also confirmed high ground impedance on
> frames when only the structures are used. Until we have a grounding
> structure system I think you have to run a ground wire (even one long
> one daisy chanied) to every module.  Also, J. Wiles has convinced me
> that all splices in the equipment ground wires should made with "non
> removable" pressure connections, i.e. butt splices or ferrules. Just my
> $0.02.
>
> If you have any questions or if I may be of any further assistance,
> please do not hesitate to contact me.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> John Berdner
>
> SMA America, Inc.
> 12438-C Loma Rica Road
> Grass Valley, CA  95945
> 530.273.4595 - Tel
> 530.274.7271 - Fax
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jay Peltz, Peltz Power [mailto:jay at asis.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 09:50 AM
> To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> Subject: Re: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
> Hi Dean,
>
> Can you give me the code # that states all panels must be grounded in
> addition to the metal frame they are on?
>
> One installer I know puts in the permit all grounding to be done in
> accordance with 250.136(a).  This allows for only a single ground wire
> from
> each seperate array.  Makes it much easier.
>
> thanks,
>
> jay
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
>
> List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
>
> List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
>
>
>
>

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael_welch at sbcglobal.net

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================