Bush Hydrogen/Solar [RE-wrenches]

[Ray Walters]

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Hi Lawrence,

I'd like some more info on your PV hydrogen setup. We're looking at fuel 
cells, but don't have a cheap hydrogen source here. Also, any info on fuel 
cells for electric vehicles or if you're familiar with nickel salt 
batteries. I'm about to build another EV, and I would like it to reflect 
21st century technology, instead of 19th century technology (flooded acid 
cells with a series DC motor)
Also, I understand Bush's push for hydrogen research has to do with his 
friends in the natural gas industry. Comments?

Ray

At 08:46 AM 2/11/2003 +0300, you wrote:



> > Hi Lawrence,
> >
> > O.K., I stand ready to be convinced! I find it hard to see how $7.00 a
>Watt
> > works better than $ 0.98 a Watt though. Maybe you're figuring some
>kind of
> > major breakthroughs in PV production technology into the equation?
>Working
> > in both wind and PV for all these years has given me a strong belief
>in the
> > efficacy of large-scale wind over solar.
> >
>
>
>  Hello Matthew .
>
>Generally like everything in life the devils in the details.
>
>You are right that wind is lower cost per kw than PV but here is the
>rub.
>
>We are converting electricity to h2 so we have to find a way of getting
>the h2 to the end user.
>I am working on the exact numbers right now and will have them available
>soon but transporting h2 like we do gasoline is extremely inneficient. A
>kilogram of h2 is roughly equivalent to a gallon of gasoline.
>Here I am discussing gaseous h2 since liquifying will take at least 1/3
>of the energy in a kg of h2 simply to get it to liquid state.
>When we look at the numbers for transportation of equivalent energy by
>truck it makes no economic sense since we are transporting more weight
>by a factor of about 10 in the form of the truck than we are in energy.
>Now add the energy used for diesel fuel and it gets even worse. If we
>transport using a h2 truck the numbers get even worse.
>
>Since we ideally need to use the h2 as close to the source as possible
>to make the numbers work out PV is still the only practical power
>supply.
>
>Sure some minor number of people could use wind locally if they are
>lucky to have a good wind site but............
>
>Yes we could locate the electrolyzer locally and use wind power from a
>distance and that is an option but my money is still on getting away
>from the grid entirely.
>
>And you comment that electrolysis takes a "huge" amount of energy to
>work.
>
>I can produce h2 on as little power as a flashlight battery.
>A 50 kw array is thought to be huge. If we dump the power to the grid at
>say %67 efficiency overall we are still behind electrolysis which is
>demonstrated at as high as %92 efficient.
>With the grid tie we have given away %33 to waste and that's before the
>grid wastes even more and then the user wastes even more.
>If we electrolyzer water at %92 efficiency and store it as h2 we have
>lost only %8.
>What we do with that energy now determines the overall conversion
>efficiency.
>It will make more sense to produce h2 on site with %8 losses and then
>use it for transportation.
>That is why I say PV is still the better choice.
>
>Thanks for listening.
>
>BTW I spend about 20 hours each week doing research on what is going on
>in h2 and the renewable world.
>I still say wrenches and the grid tie people ignore the symbiotic and
>excellent relationship between RE and h2 at their disadvantage and will
>live to regret it.
>
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