Kohler 8.5 [RE-wrenches]

Wed Jan 8 08:17:38 PST 2003

<x-flowed>
I was told by a Kohler rep that the 8.5 is a fine generator, so long as you 
are not planning to use it.  He felt it was good for backup only.  We 
phased them out.

Drake

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

</x-flowed>
Received: from out003.tpca.net [66.180.244.23] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id AFC320300B0; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 08:20:19 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: Electrical Energy <solar at eagle-access.net>
Subject: Re: Kohler 8.5 [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 09:21:15 -0700
Message-ID: <347047346-1463792126-1042042726 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042042718.inmta006.15264.1010940>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
Return-Path: <solar at eagle-access.net>
Received: (qmail 27357 invoked by alias); 8 Jan 2003 16:18:37 -0000
Received: (qmail 27352 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2003 16:18:37 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO saturn.eagle-access.net) (206.168.38.1)
  by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 16:18:37 -0000
Received: from EECC.eagle-access.net (hiper7.seqnet.net [206.168.116.76])
	by saturn.eagle-access.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id h08GIjE29538
	for <RE-wrenches at topica.com>; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 09:18:45 -0700
X-Sender: solar at eagle-access.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
In-Reply-To: <137885750-1463747838-1042001093 at topica.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out003.tpca.net ([66.180.244.23]).

At 11:44 PM 1/7/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>  is the correct
>grounding to isolate the neutral in the genny and reconnect the ground wire
>at my main bus

According to at least one inspector, and my reading of the Code, this is 
the correct way.

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: sunwise <sunwise at cheqnet.net>
Subject: RE: differential controllers [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:49:34 -0600
Message-ID: <1473348890-1463792382-1042044775 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <1515338925-1463747838-1042040950 at topica.com>

Tom Simko wrote:
 Anyone have any other ideas as to how to keep the diff controller happy
other then just leave the inverter on all the time?

Hey Tom,

I would think it would be pretty easy to make your own DC differential
controller, maybe there is even one out there.  Stay DC.  

If you have to run it at 120vac, you could use a very tiny inexpensive
inverter (50 watt) to power the controller and have it pull in a relay
to run a DC pump(s) or even run an ac pump off the SW (inverter could
still sleep when the sun ain't shinning).  This would probably be way
less current consumption than booting up the SW 24/7.  A DC timer might
be another option.  It would allow the inverter some nite time snoozing.

I am not fond of drain-back systems.  I think the closed-loop is a
better deal, especially if circulating potable water in the drain-back
due to mineral build-up in the collectors.

Kurt Nelson
SOLutions

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out005.tpca.net [66.180.244.25] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id ABE427E00A8; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 09:12:04 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: Allan Sindelar <allan at positiveenergysolar.com>
Subject: Re: differential controllers [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:13:43 -0700
Message-ID: <1103505968-1463747838-1042045831 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042045830.inmta007.17291.1008388>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
Return-Path: <allan at positiveenergysolar.com>
Received: (qmail 21186 invoked by alias); 8 Jan 2003 17:10:30 -0000
Received: (qmail 21180 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2003 17:10:30 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO mail.cybermesa.com) (198.59.109.2)
  by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 17:10:30 -0000
Received: from Solar ([216.84.165.2])
	by mail.cybermesa.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h08HAUH10628
	for <RE-wrenches at topica.com>; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:10:30 -0700 (MST)
References: <1515338925-1463747838-1042040950 at topica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out005.tpca.net ([66.180.244.25]).

Tom,
To reduce early-morning temperature drop, install a low limit snap switch
(Grainger part #2E848) near the collector output and air vent, wired between
PV module and pump, to keep the circuit open until a threshold temperature
is attained in the morning. The only downside is it adds one more
part/circuit to an inherently simple system.
The Gold Line GL30 differential controller (Grainger part #3GC96) may be run
on 24V DC. Connect DC- to BR1- (5th pin from top, and DC+ to BR1+ terminal
(4th pin from top). Either make up a pin connector (Mouser Electronics) or
solder leads to the circuit board. Works fine, voids warranty.

Allan at Pos E

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Simko" <tom at skylinesolar.com>

> Fellow wrenchers:
> One draw back is in the morning there is a 1, maybe 1 1/2 degree temp drop
as
> measured in the storage tank due to the sun telling the circ pump to run
> what can be 100 plus degree stored fluid through the ice cold panels, its
> momentary, and just at start up.
>
>  As to the differential controller, all I can find are 120VAC models,
> meaning my 4024SW will have to be ON all the time. Anyone have any other
ideas as to how to keep the diff controller happy other then just leave the
inverter on all the time?

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out006.tpca.net [66.180.244.26] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A22B25100B0; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 09:38:51 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: matthew tritt <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: cheap GC-1000's, anyone? [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 09:32:31 -0800
Message-ID: <2115814499-1463792638-1042047441 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042047434.inmta002.29240.1012880>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
Return-Path: <solarone at charter.net>
Received: (qmail 10189 invoked by alias); 8 Jan 2003 17:37:14 -0000
Received: (qmail 10184 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2003 17:37:14 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO dc-mx12.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.8.22)
  by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 17:37:14 -0000
Received: from [66.215.59.129] (HELO boombox)
  by dc-mx12.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9)
  with SMTP id 65506418 for RE-wrenches at topica.com; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 12:37:13 -0500
References: <77243000-1463792126-1042035518 at topica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out006.tpca.net ([66.180.244.26]).

Mark,

I heard the first negative report on the Outback 2000 yesterday! Sounds like
several things are going to cause fits for installers and customers.

1: 50 Watt (!) no load consumption in "on" position (that's 24 hours a day,
folks; The SW has only 16)
2: Only one "AC In" connection. No possibility for both grid and genset at
the same time.
3: Poor wave form in "power save" mode (still draws 22 amps!)
4: Requires external control to operate certain programming modes (extra
expense).

These are not the only problems, but enough to start "dialogue". :-)

And we were hoping for a miracle! Is it on the way??

Matt T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Robinson" <Mark at TheEnergyGrid.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 6:18 AM
Subject: RE: cheap GC-1000's, anyone? [RE-wrenches]

> GC-1000: If you have trouble finding them, please let me know.... I can
hunt
> some up for you. I can also check around for parts if necessary.
>
> Still no progress on the bankruptcy liquidation. There are a fistful of
> companies bidding. I've spoken to several of them. Contact me offline if
you
> want to know more or if I can help with specific problems.
>
> I'm very interested in knowing more about current MultiMode performance
and
> performance of other inverters (SMA, Trace, Outback). I'm starting to put
> together some seminars and I need some war stories.
>
> Regards,
> Mark
> Mark at TheEnergyGrid.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 5:50 PM
> To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> Subject: RE: cheap GC-1000's, anyone? [RE-wrenches]
>
>
> Kirk,
>
> Contact AstroPower. I know they got a fairly large shipment before AEI
went
> down.
>
> Bill.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kirk Herander, VSE [mailto:kirk at vtsolar.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 2:41 PM
> To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> Subject: cheap GC-1000's, anyone? [RE-wrenches]
>
>
> Group,
>
> Does anyone know where I can obtain a new or used GC-1000 inverter cheap?
I
> need parts, and Mark R. tells me it could be some time before the dust
> settles to free up AE's intelluctual property. Please contact me offline.
> Thanks - Kirk
>
>
> Vermont Solar Engineering
> a Xantrex / Trace Certified Dealer Charter Member
> Kirk Herander
> PO Box 697
> Burlington, VT. 05402
> www.vermontsolar.com
> www.backeastsolar.com
> 800.286.1252 - 802.863.1202
> fax 802.863.7908
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
>
> List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
>
> List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
>
> List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
>
>
>
>
>

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out005.tpca.net [66.180.244.25] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A2F53100BE; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 10:50:29 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: Andrew Bortz <solarman2 at attbi.com>
Subject: Inverter war story? [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 09:50:21 -0800
Message-ID: <1285086465-1463792382-1042051739 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042051736.inmta006.15264.1015446>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
Return-Path: <solarman2 at attbi.com>
Received: (qmail 21472 invoked by alias); 8 Jan 2003 18:48:55 -0000
Received: (qmail 21463 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2003 18:48:55 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO sccrmhc02.attbi.com) (204.127.202.62)
  by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 18:48:55 -0000
Received: from pavilion (12-225-94-27.client.attbi.com[12.225.94.27])
          by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02) with SMTP
          id <2003010817510500200rc1fne>; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 17:51:05 +0000
References: <77243000-1463792126-1042035518 at topica.com> <2115814499-1463792638-1042047441 at topica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out005.tpca.net ([66.180.244.25]).

Wrenches,

One of my client PV systems is acting up.  This is a Trace SW4048 system
being operated as a combination utility intertie (sell mode) & battery
back-up system.  There is a 1KW PV array, Trace C40 charge controller, and
(8) Trojan L-16 batteries in series (three years old & probably dead from
overcharging now).

The settings on the Trace are factory defaults with the exception of; bulk
volts at 58.5VDC, float volts at 52VDC, & 52.5VDC for the sell volts.  The
C40 was set to 58.5 on the bulk volts also, and 53 on the float.  This was
changed on the advice of the techs at my distributorship, and the idea was
to reduce battery water use, and Increase the power sold to the grid.

The problem: On SUNNY days the TM500 monitor is indicating that the
batteries are getting discharged down to 55% (selling?).  And on cloudy days
the monitor indicates the batteries discharge down to 80 or 85%.  It looks
like we are charging the batteries up overnight, and then selling too much
during the day.  But, why would we sell more on sunny than on cloudy days
given the settings?  My understanding is that the selling should typically
keep the batteries above 80%.

I suppose there could be a set up problem with the TM500 monitor, but I
think the dead batteries say there's a bigger problem!
-------------
On a separate subject: Has anyone had long term success with gel batteries
in a
residential installation?

Any help would be appreciated,

Andrew,
Solar Design

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out006.tpca.net [66.180.244.26] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A67927C0056; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 09:57:13 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: Ray Walters <remotech at taosnm.com>
Subject: RE: Australian Thermal Tower [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 11:00:44 -0700
Message-ID: <2024859504-1463792638-1042048546 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042048527.inmta004.7083.1011442>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
Return-Path: <remotech at taosnm.com>
Received: (qmail 24397 invoked by alias); 8 Jan 2003 17:55:26 -0000
Received: (qmail 24390 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2003 17:55:25 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO salsa.newmex.com) (65.112.216.18)
  by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 17:55:25 -0000
Received: from ray (qppp208.newmex.com [65.112.216.208])
	by salsa.newmex.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id h08HtY151177
	for <RE-wrenches at topica.com>; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:55:34 -0700 (MST)
X-Sender: remotech at newmex.com (Unverified)
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out006.tpca.net ([66.180.244.26]).

 Here's some more info I received from my father on the Thermal Tower .

Ray

                 AUSTRALIA'S LEIGHTON HOLDINGS TO
>ANALYSE   US$562.9 M SOLAR TOWER                Story Filed: Monday,
>November 11, 2002 1:03 AM EST   SYDNEY, Nov 11, 2002 (AsiaPulse via COMTEX)
>-- Leighton Holdings Ltd (ASX:LEI) is preparing to determine the viability
>of building the world's first solar power generation tower, in a project
>worth up to $A1 billion ($US562.9 million).   Listed renewable energy group
>EnviroMission Ltd said Leighton would establish whether the tower, tipped
>to be one kilometre high and the world's largest engineered structure, was
>economically viable.   "" EnviroMission chief executive Roger Davey told
>AAP.   ""   The study would also involve improving and finalising
>materials, and forecasting the nature of the income stream.   "" Mr Davey
>said.   He said the companies expected to pinpoint other income sources for
>the construction other than power, including tourism, telecommunications
>and agriculture.   Once the viability study was completed, in an expected
>three to six months, Leighton would take an equity position in the project
>and participate in final design and actual construction.   Leighton has the
>option to convert up to $A1 million ($US562,900) in capital expenditure
>into a stake in EnviroMission.   Mr Davey said signing Leighton up to the
>project added to its credibility.   "" Mr Davey said.   ""   The tower, to
>be located near Buronga in NSW's south-west, would be surrounded by a solar
>collector 7km in diameter.   The tower allows the hot air produced under
>the collector to drive the turbines and generate the electricity, and is
>expected to provide power for some 200,000 homes, abating 700,000 tonnes of
>greenhouse gases emissions annually.   Energen Global Inc, a technology
>outfit with a stake in EnviroMission, provided the exclusive licence to the
>German-designed solar tower technology in Australia.   (C) 2002 Asia Pulse
>Pte Ltd   INDUSTRY KEYWORD: Energy                    Environment/water
>pollution                    Utilities  Copyright © 2002, Asia Pulse,
>all rights reserved.   
>
>  LEI    061-Building, Contractor  http://www.leighton.com.au/  Principal
>Activities  Leighton Holdings Limited is the parent company of Australia's
>largest project development and contracting group. Group companies
>undertake activity for clients in the telecommunications, engineering and
>infrastructure, building and property, mining and resources, and
>environmental services markets. Operations span projects in Australia, SE
>Asia, NZ, Vietnam, China and South  America.    Business Summary  Leighton
>Holdings Ltd is the parent company of Australia's largest project
>development and contracting group, the Leighton Group, which offers a broad
>range of project development and contracting services and skills to public
>and private sector clients from a wide range of industries. Project
>development skills and project management of construction and property
>developments complement the Group's contracting activities. The Group
>operates in Australia and the Asia-Pacific region and is pursuing
>opportunities in South America. LEIGHTON CONTRACTORS Leighton Contractors
>is a broad-based Australian contractor which undertakes building and civil
>engineering construction and various forms of contract mining. It maintains
>one of the largest fleets of modern civil engineering and building
>construction equipment and plant in Australia. THIESS CONTRACTORS Thiess
>Contractors provide civil engineering, contract mining, building and
>environmental services conducted throughout Australia, Indonesia and the
>Pacific Region. LEIGHTON ASIA Leighton Asia is involved in civil
>engineering and construction, marine and reclamation, foundation
>engineering, project management and construction management. The Company is
>based in Hong Kong and operates throughout Thailand, China, Vietnam,
>Philippines and Malaysia. OTHER ACTIVITIES Leighton Properties - Structured
>to develop, lease and sell properties with the aim to reduce exposure
>through the leasing and sale of existing property projects in Australia.   

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out006.tpca.net [66.180.244.26] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A08C2600BE; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 10:40:12 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: Joel Davidson <joeldavidson at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: NET METERING ATTACK [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 10:39:41 -0800
Message-ID: <1308130144-1463747838-1042051119 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042051112.inmta006.15264.1015133>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
Return-Path: <joeldavidson at earthlink.net>
Received: (qmail 17582 invoked by alias); 8 Jan 2003 18:38:32 -0000
Received: (qmail 17577 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2003 18:38:31 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12)
  by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 18:38:31 -0000
Received: from pool0262.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.245.7] helo=earthlink.net)
	by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1)
	id 18WL5y-0002q8-00
	for RE-wrenches at topica.com; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 10:38:30 -0800
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en,zh-TW
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <666951118-1463792382-1041969412 at topica.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out006.tpca.net ([66.180.244.26]).

Don and California Wrenches,
Thanks for sending Ed O'Neill's protest letter and Jan Pepper's comments.
What are to email addresses and fax numbers for Jerry Royer, CPUC and James
Frank, SDG&E?
Also, send the email addresses and fax numbers for anyone else who should get a
copy of my protest letter.
I encourage others to file a protest. You can cut-and-pasted from Ed's letter or
I will send you my shorter cut-paste letter off-list.
Thank you.
Joel Davidson

"Don Loweburg, Offline" wrote:

> I'm posting this to the list because I think there is enough general interest
> in the process outlined below.  He states:
> "Unlike most processes and procedures at the CPUC, the process for protesting
> an Advice Letter is fairly simple.  It takes nothing more than a letter
> stating that the writer protests the Advice Letter and briefly stating the
> grounds on which the Advice Letter is protested.  It should be directed by
> e-mail and fax to the same individual and address stated in CalSEIA's
> protest.  A copy should also be provided to the utility c/o the utility
> employee named in the Advice Letter.  There is, however, a time within which
> protests to Advice Letters must ordinarily be filed and protests to SDG&E's
> Advice Letter 1459-E were due 1/6/03.  The CPUC often considers late-filed
> protests, however, so if you know of others interested in filing protests and
> they can do so fairly soon, I would recommend that they go ahead and do so.
> For more information, you may contact or direct others to the CPUC's Public
> Advisor's Office, 415-703-2074.  FYI, ED
>
>  Thank Ed O'neil CALSEIA attorney and solar warrior.
>
> Best, Don Loweburg
>
> --
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
>
> List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out003.tpca.net [66.180.244.23] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A9155000C0; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 12:24:53 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: "Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters" <bob at energyoutfitters.com>
Subject: RE: cheap GC-1000's, anyone? [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 12:21:04 -0800
Message-ID: <682438304-1463747838-1042057404 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042057401.inmta007.17291.1013329>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
Return-Path: <bob at energyoutfitters.com>
Received: (qmail 3004 invoked by alias); 8 Jan 2003 20:23:20 -0000
Received: (qmail 2998 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2003 20:23:20 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO budget.net) (208.33.7.34)
  by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 20:23:20 -0000
Received: from bob (dsl.dyn.01-8.budget.net [65.165.4.8])
	by budget.net (8.12.5/8.12.5) with SMTP id h08KNGuo032053
	for <RE-wrenches at topica.com>; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 12:23:18 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
In-reply-to: <2115814499-1463792638-1042047441 at topica.com>
Importance: Normal
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out003.tpca.net ([66.180.244.23]).

Matt,

Let me update you regarding Outback.  The following is cut and paste from
Christopher at Outback:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The idle power consumption
with a "real" sinewave output has been reduced to the 18 to 20
watt range and the "power mizer" mode has been completely eliminated.

This improvement is easily added in the field to any of the existing
FX2000 inverters already shipped and we will be providing the
"kit" at no charge for all units already shipped.  We should
have the kits going out by the end of this week. It will be included
standard in all of the production FX2000 units we ship.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

True, it does have only on AC input.

The FX comes with a basic default program.  Using the "Mate" controller you
can change many parameters and customize for the application.  Much more so
than the SW.  Because the FX has non-volatile memory, you can program it to
customer spec. and remove it from the system altogether, it becomes a truck
tool.  With that said, most people will want the "Mate" because of all the
metering and neat status screens!

Regards,
Bob Maynard
Energy Outfitters

-----Original Message-----
From: matthew tritt [mailto:solarone at charter.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:33 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: cheap GC-1000's, anyone? [RE-wrenches]

Mark,

I heard the first negative report on the Outback 2000 yesterday! Sounds like
several things are going to cause fits for installers and customers.

1: 50 Watt (!) no load consumption in "on" position (that's 24 hours a day,
folks; The SW has only 16)
2: Only one "AC In" connection. No possibility for both grid and genset at
the same time.
3: Poor wave form in "power save" mode (still draws 22 amps!)
4: Requires external control to operate certain programming modes (extra
expense).

These are not the only problems, but enough to start "dialogue". :-)

And we were hoping for a miracle! Is it on the way??

Matt T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Robinson" <Mark at TheEnergyGrid.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 6:18 AM
Subject: RE: cheap GC-1000's, anyone? [RE-wrenches]

> GC-1000: If you have trouble finding them, please let me know.... I can
hunt
> some up for you. I can also check around for parts if necessary.
>
> Still no progress on the bankruptcy liquidation. There are a fistful of
> companies bidding. I've spoken to several of them. Contact me offline if
you
> want to know more or if I can help with specific problems.
>
> I'm very interested in knowing more about current MultiMode performance
and
> performance of other inverters (SMA, Trace, Outback). I'm starting to put
> together some seminars and I need some war stories.
>
> Regards,
> Mark
> Mark at TheEnergyGrid.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 5:50 PM
> To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> Subject: RE: cheap GC-1000's, anyone? [RE-wrenches]
>
>
> Kirk,
>
> Contact AstroPower. I know they got a fairly large shipment before AEI
went
> down.
>
> Bill.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kirk Herander, VSE [mailto:kirk at vtsolar.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 2:41 PM
> To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> Subject: cheap GC-1000's, anyone? [RE-wrenches]
>
>
> Group,
>
> Does anyone know where I can obtain a new or used GC-1000 inverter cheap?
I
> need parts, and Mark R. tells me it could be some time before the dust
> settles to free up AE's intelluctual property. Please contact me offline.
> Thanks - Kirk
>
>
> Vermont Solar Engineering
> a Xantrex / Trace Certified Dealer Charter Member
> Kirk Herander
> PO Box 697
> Burlington, VT. 05402
> www.vermontsolar.com
> www.backeastsolar.com
> 800.286.1252 - 802.863.1202
> fax 802.863.7908
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
>
> List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
>
> List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
>
> List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
>
>
>
>
>

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out006.tpca.net [66.180.244.26] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A1841A00144; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:00:52 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: matthew tritt <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: cheap GC-1000's, anyone? [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 12:54:29 -0800
Message-ID: <317098162-1463792126-1042059564 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042059560.inmta006.15264.1020037>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
Return-Path: <solarone at charter.net>
Received: (qmail 14908 invoked by alias); 8 Jan 2003 20:59:19 -0000
Received: (qmail 14903 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2003 20:59:19 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO mx16.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.8.26)
  by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 20:59:19 -0000
Received: from [66.215.59.129] (HELO boombox)
  by mx16.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9)
  with SMTP id 18177284 for RE-wrenches at topica.com; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 15:59:18 -0500
References: <682438304-1463747838-1042057404 at topica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out006.tpca.net ([66.180.244.26]).

Bob,

Thanks for the update. The info I posted was taken from a bench test from a
recent delivery, so Outback must have had a bunch of the first models to get
out (to keep us all happy), regardless of changes that would eventually be
needed. Such is life in the inverter world.

The truck tool idea is a good one if it keeps the homeowner from messing
with the settings, but it's too bad that techie owners will have to pay
extra for the ability to program their own equipment, no?

It seems a pity that there is only one AC in. Wonder why they did that??

Matt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters" <bob at energyoutfitters.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:21 PM
Subject: RE: cheap GC-1000's, anyone? [RE-wrenches]

> Matt,
>
> Let me update you regarding Outback.  The following is cut and paste from
> Christopher at Outback:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> The idle power consumption
> with a "real" sinewave output has been reduced to the 18 to 20
> watt range and the "power mizer" mode has been completely eliminated.
>
>
> This improvement is easily added in the field to any of the existing
> FX2000 inverters already shipped and we will be providing the
> "kit" at no charge for all units already shipped.  We should
> have the kits going out by the end of this week. It will be included
> standard in all of the production FX2000 units we ship.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> True, it does have only on AC input.
>
> The FX comes with a basic default program.  Using the "Mate" controller
you
> can change many parameters and customize for the application.  Much more
so
> than the SW.  Because the FX has non-volatile memory, you can program it
to
> customer spec. and remove it from the system altogether, it becomes a
truck
> tool.  With that said, most people will want the "Mate" because of all the
> metering and neat status screens!
>
> Regards,
> Bob Maynard
> Energy Outfitters
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: matthew tritt [mailto:solarone at charter.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:33 AM
> To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> Subject: Re: cheap GC-1000's, anyone? [RE-wrenches]
>
>
> Mark,
>
> I heard the first negative report on the Outback 2000 yesterday! Sounds
like
> several things are going to cause fits for installers and customers.
>
> 1: 50 Watt (!) no load consumption in "on" position (that's 24 hours a
day,
> folks; The SW has only 16)
> 2: Only one "AC In" connection. No possibility for both grid and genset at
> the same time.
> 3: Poor wave form in "power save" mode (still draws 22 amps!)
> 4: Requires external control to operate certain programming modes (extra
> expense).
>
> These are not the only problems, but enough to start "dialogue". :-)
>
> And we were hoping for a miracle! Is it on the way??
>
> Matt T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Robinson" <Mark at TheEnergyGrid.com>
> To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 6:18 AM
> Subject: RE: cheap GC-1000's, anyone? [RE-wrenches]
>
>
> > GC-1000: If you have trouble finding them, please let me know.... I can
> hunt
> > some up for you. I can also check around for parts if necessary.
> >
> > Still no progress on the bankruptcy liquidation. There are a fistful of
> > companies bidding. I've spoken to several of them. Contact me offline if
> you
> > want to know more or if I can help with specific problems.
> >
> > I'm very interested in knowing more about current MultiMode performance
> and
> > performance of other inverters (SMA, Trace, Outback). I'm starting to
put
> > together some seminars and I need some war stories.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Mark
> > Mark at TheEnergyGrid.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 5:50 PM
> > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> > Subject: RE: cheap GC-1000's, anyone? [RE-wrenches]
> >
> >
> > Kirk,
> >
> > Contact AstroPower. I know they got a fairly large shipment before AEI
> went
> > down.
> >
> > Bill.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kirk Herander, VSE [mailto:kirk at vtsolar.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 2:41 PM
> > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> > Subject: cheap GC-1000's, anyone? [RE-wrenches]
> >
> >
> > Group,
> >
> > Does anyone know where I can obtain a new or used GC-1000 inverter
cheap?
> I
> > need parts, and Mark R. tells me it could be some time before the dust
> > settles to free up AE's intelluctual property. Please contact me
offline.
> > Thanks - Kirk
> >
> >
> > Vermont Solar Engineering
> > a Xantrex / Trace Certified Dealer Charter Member
> > Kirk Herander
> > PO Box 697
> > Burlington, VT. 05402
> > www.vermontsolar.com
> > www.backeastsolar.com
> > 800.286.1252 - 802.863.1202
> > fax 802.863.7908
> >
> > - - - -
> > To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> >
> > Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
> >
> > List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
> >
> > Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
> >
> > Hosted by Home Power magazine
> >
> > Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
> >
> > - - - -
> > To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> >
> > Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
> >
> > List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
> >
> > Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
> >
> > Hosted by Home Power magazine
> >
> > Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
> >
> > - - - -
> > To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> >
> > Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
> >
> > List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
> >
> > Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
> >
> > Hosted by Home Power magazine
> >
> > Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
>
> List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
>
> List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out005.tpca.net [66.180.244.25] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A2611A30144; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:04:33 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: sunwise <sunwise at cheqnet.net>
Subject: RE: Outback update [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:02:46 -0600
Message-ID: <79485439-1463792638-1042059781 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042059779.inmta008.11249.1014441>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
Return-Path: <sunwise at cheqnet.net>
Received: (qmail 3435 invoked by alias); 8 Jan 2003 21:02:58 -0000
Received: (qmail 3430 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2003 21:02:57 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO sa-2.airstreamcomm.net) (64.33.192.162)
  by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 21:02:57 -0000
Received: from DFNSDR11 (unknown [206.176.194.216])
	by sa-2.airstreamcomm.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 100B3224896
	for <RE-wrenches at topica.com>; Wed,  8 Jan 2003 15:02:55 -0600 (CST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Importance: Normal
In-reply-to: <682438304-1463747838-1042057404 at topica.com>
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out005.tpca.net ([66.180.244.25]).

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters [mailto:bob at energyoutfitters.com] 

The idle power consumption with a "real" sinewave output has been
reduced to the 18 to 20 watt range and the "power mizer" mode has been
completely eliminated.

Greetings Bob,

I have not yet looked over the Outback unit and have been hoping to hear
more about it.  Is the "power mizer" essentially the search mode (and it
is no more), or is there still some kind of search mode where energy
consumption is very low?  I understand the "silent sell" missing from
the SW is included in the Outback, is it drawing something like 19 watts
when in silent sell as well?

Thanks -- Kurt Nelson

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out009.tpca.net [66.180.244.29] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8A71D40144; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:31:19 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: "Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters" <bob at energyoutfitters.com>
Subject: RE: Outback update [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:27:30 -0800
Message-ID: <1994854540-1463792382-1042061389 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042061386.inmta007.17291.1014936>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
Return-Path: <bob at energyoutfitters.com>
Received: (qmail 26397 invoked by alias); 8 Jan 2003 21:29:46 -0000
Received: (qmail 26391 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2003 21:29:46 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO budget.net) (208.33.7.34)
  by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 21:29:46 -0000
Received: from bob (dsl.dyn.01-8.budget.net [65.165.4.8])
	by budget.net (8.12.5/8.12.5) with SMTP id h08LThJM019540
	for <RE-wrenches at topica.com>; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:29:44 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
In-reply-to: <79485439-1463792638-1042059781 at topica.com>
Importance: Normal
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out009.tpca.net ([66.180.244.29]).

Hi Kurt,

The FX 2000 still has a search mode.  The "power mizer" mode(now eliminated)
was an additional operating mode between search and full on sinewave.
Outback's engineers were able to eliminate this mode by reducing the idle
current.  The concept of the powermizer mode was pretty neat but at the same
time added some confusion and complexity to the setup.  Its great that
they've reduced the idle current to the point where its not needed!

Yes! What we in the industry refer to as "Silent Sell" is in the FX, but at
this time the inverter is only listed for offgrid application.  Grid tie
certification will becoming down the road.

Anybody at Outback want to give us an estimated availability date?

I'm running my FX in the HBX mode (I'm currently ongrid).  I've moved 4
critical load circuits from my main service panel to a sub panel.  Grid
feeds through the FX to the sub panel.  When my batteries reach full charge
from the solar array, FX transfers sub panel loads to inverter power.  I've
played with the "low battery" transfer settings and when my batteries are
about 20% discharged, the FX transfers back to grid.  This leaves reserve in
my battery just in case the grid goes down.  In a separate programming menu,
I've told the FX's charger not to turn on.  YEA!!!  As for the 19 watts, I
haven't measured it yet,  Outback want to comment?

Regards,
Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: sunwise [mailto:sunwise at cheqnet.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:03 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Outback update [RE-wrenches]

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Maynard, Energy Outfitters [mailto:bob at energyoutfitters.com]

The idle power consumption with a "real" sinewave output has been
reduced to the 18 to 20 watt range and the "power mizer" mode has been
completely eliminated.

Greetings Bob,

I have not yet looked over the Outback unit and have been hoping to hear
more about it.  Is the "power mizer" essentially the search mode (and it
is no more), or is there still some kind of search mode where energy
consumption is very low?  I understand the "silent sell" missing from
the SW is included in the Outback, is it drawing something like 19 watts
when in silent sell as well?

Thanks -- Kurt Nelson

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out006.tpca.net [66.180.244.26] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A97314B00AE; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:34:43 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: Christopher Freitas  -  OutBack Power <cfreitas at outbackpower.com>
Subject: OutBack FX2024 (was cheap GC-1000) [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed,  8 Jan 2003 21:33:12 +0000
Message-ID: <486393400-1463747838-1042061593 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042061592.web003.17443.1000000>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out006.tpca.net ([66.180.244.26]).

Here is the latest information on the OutBack FX2024 inverter/charger 
system.  I am limiting my discussion to just the points Matthew Tritt 
raised but am happy to answer any other question you might have either 
here on the wrenches list or off-line via email or phone.

We have been shipping the FX2024 on a limited basis for specific 
applications.  The units we are shipping are intended for only 
non-stacked systems, off-grid or backup systems.  There are a number of 
improvements we are testing which will be available very soon.  We have 
held off on production of the Fx2048 until these issues have been 
resolved.  

When we started the beta testing of the FX2024 the no load / idle power 
consumption was under 20 watts with a sine wave output.  We found some 
problems with the AC output waveform regulation at very small load 
levels and made the decision to switch to an alternative method for 
efficiently powering small loads we called "power mizer".  With this 
mode the power mizer's operation could be adjusted to draw as little as 
12 watts (but 22 watts is typical for the default settings).  The power 
mizer mode is a quasi-sinewave output and is intended for only 
electronic loads such as CF lights and other small ac loads - 
stereo/answering machines.  Without the power mizer mode enabled the no 
load "idle" power draw has been about 50 watts.  When the load exceeds 
100 watts the inverter automatically switches to full sinewave 
operation.  The power mizer mode can be disabled using the MATE system 
controller/display.  

We have not been satisfied with the power mizer solution and have 
continued working on another method of reducing the no load / idle power 
consumption.  Last week we finalized the design of a simple modification 
which reduces the no load / idle power draw to as low as 18 watts under 
most conditions with a real sinewave output.  We are completing the 
final testing of this method at this time and will be posting more 
information including the new efficiency curves on our website shortly.  

The good news is that this modification can be made to any of the 
previously shipped units and a kit will be provided at no charge to 
allow for field upgrading.  Installation of the kit requires only common 
hand tools and no software changes are necessary.  The modification also 
does not affect our ETL listing of the FX2024 either.  

With this modification installed the FX2024 has similar idle power 
consumption to other inverters available without the problems of a 
co-inverter (as with Vanner) or a poor quality ac waveform (as with the 
SW series).  Since our design is modular we can turn off the excess 
capacity to maximize the efficiency under various load levels when 
multiple inverters are "stacked" for higher power or 120/240 vac.

The FX2000 include only a single AC input for the utility or generator 
connection.  We plan on offering a seperate AC1/AC2 transfer switch to 
allow automatic operation of systems with both utility grid and 
generator power sources.  Having two AC inputs on each inverter adds too 
much complexity to the modular design and adds cost to all the units 
even though many people do not use both of the AC inputs.     

The MATE system controller and display is required for programming of 
the inverter's setpoints but can be removed once the unit is programmed 
(all settings are stored in non-volatile memory in the inverter itself). 
 We also have terminals for connection of a remote on/off switch which 
allows you to disable or enable the search mode and reset the unit when 
an error occurs without needing the MATE on site.  All of the current 
inverter modes operate without the MATE connected, but some of the more 
advanced system operations were are developing will require a MATE to be 
installed all of the time.  For multiple inverter systems,  only a 
single MATE is required.   

Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas at outbackpower.com  
www.outbackpower.com
Tel 360 435 6030  
Arlington WA USA

matthew tritt wrote:

> I heard the first negative report on the Outback 2000 yesterday! Sounds 
> like several things are going to cause fits for installers and 
> customers.

> 1: 50 Watt (!) no load consumption in "on" position (that's 24 hours a 
> day, folks; The SW has only 16)

> 2: Only one "AC In" connection. No possibility for both grid and genset 
> at the same time.

> 3: Poor wave form in "power save" mode (still draws 22 amps!)

> 4: Requires external control to operate certain programming modes (extra 
> expense).

> These are not the only problems, but enough to start "dialogue". :-)

> And we were hoping for a miracle! Is it on the way??
> 
> Matt T

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out008.tpca.net [66.180.244.28] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id AA74230128; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:39:00 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: "Tom Lane, Energy Conservation Services" <tom at ecs-solar.com>
Subject: Re: differential controllers [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 16:41:42 -0500
Message-ID: <2098864815-1463747838-1042061846 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042061841.inmta006.15264.1020968>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
Return-Path: <tom at ecs-solar.com>
Received: (qmail 26610 invoked by alias); 8 Jan 2003 21:37:20 -0000
Received: (qmail 26605 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2003 21:37:20 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO imf14bis.bellsouth.net) (205.152.58.54)
  by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 21:37:20 -0000
Received: from dell ([68.18.245.126]) by imf14bis.bellsouth.net
          (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP
          id <20030108213913.UTSC26296.imf14bis.bellsouth.net at dell>
          for <RE-wrenches at topica.com>; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 16:39:13 -0500
References: <1473348890-1463792382-1042044775 at topica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out008.tpca.net ([66.180.244.28]).

drainback systems DO NOT scale up the collectors --- absorbers will last 3
times longer in a drainback system than any type of DHW design. Gator Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "sunwise" <sunwise at cheqnet.net>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: differential controllers [RE-wrenches]

> Tom Simko wrote:
>  Anyone have any other ideas as to how to keep the diff controller happy
> other then just leave the inverter on all the time?
>
> Hey Tom,
>
> I would think it would be pretty easy to make your own DC differential
> controller, maybe there is even one out there.  Stay DC.
>
> If you have to run it at 120vac, you could use a very tiny inexpensive
> inverter (50 watt) to power the controller and have it pull in a relay
> to run a DC pump(s) or even run an ac pump off the SW (inverter could
> still sleep when the sun ain't shinning).  This would probably be way
> less current consumption than booting up the SW 24/7.  A DC timer might
> be another option.  It would allow the inverter some nite time snoozing.
>
> I am not fond of drain-back systems.  I think the closed-loop is a
> better deal, especially if circulating potable water in the drain-back
> due to mineral build-up in the collectors.
>
> Kurt Nelson
> SOLutions
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
>
> List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
>
>
>

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out009.tpca.net [66.180.244.29] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id AEB628C00DA; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:57:10 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: Christopher Freitas  -  OutBack Power <cfreitas at outbackpower.com>
Subject: RE: Outback update [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed,  8 Jan 2003 21:55:38 +0000
Message-ID: <1698134730-1463792126-1042062939 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042062938.web002.13522.1000003>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out009.tpca.net ([66.180.244.29]).

sunwise wrote:

>I understand the "silent sell" missing from the SW is included in
the Outback, is it drawing something like 19 watts when in silent 
sell as well?

> Thanks -- Kurt Nelson

Yes - "silent sell" is designed into the design - and is currently used 
also by the battery charger and HBX modes as well.  When the inverter is 
silent we not only turn off the inverter but also can disconnect the 
transformer from the utility grid to minimize all of the parasitic power 
consumption.  There is zero power draw on the AC side of the inverter 
and only a couple of watts on the DC side to keep the computer running 
and transfer relays closed.  

Our approach to developing the FX2000 is what I call a "crawl-walk-run" 
strategy.  We are currently crawling - shipping a limited number of 
units and making improvements.  Once the design is more proven and the 
feature set complete we will start "walking" by shipping large volumes.  
Once that is done we will enable the grid interactive features and be 
"running".  This approach allows us to bite off manageable amounts of 
issues and not be overloaded. 

We appreciate all the support and patience we have received from many on 
this list and look forward to working with more of you in the future.  

Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas at outbackpower.com  
www.outbackpower.com
Tel 360 435 6030  
Arlington WA USA

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out008.tpca.net [66.180.244.28] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id AE3C28600DA; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:55:08 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: "Tom Lane, Energy Conservation Services" <tom at ecs-solar.com>
Subject: Re: differential controllers [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 16:57:58 -0500
Message-ID: <477230477-1463747838-1042062820 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042062817.inmta008.11249.1015709>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
Return-Path: <tom at ecs-solar.com>
Received: (qmail 19444 invoked by alias); 8 Jan 2003 21:53:36 -0000
Received: (qmail 19439 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2003 21:53:36 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO imf14bis.bellsouth.net) (205.152.58.34)
  by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 21:53:36 -0000
Received: from dell ([68.18.245.126]) by imf14bis.bellsouth.net
          (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP
          id <20030108215529.VGGQ26296.imf14bis.bellsouth.net at dell>
          for <RE-wrenches at topica.com>; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 16:55:29 -0500
References: <1515338925-1463747838-1042040950 at topica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out008.tpca.net ([66.180.244.28]).

 Your assumptions about drainback systems is correct

Gator Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Simko" <tom at skylinesolar.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:53 AM
Subject: differential controllers [RE-wrenches]

> Fellow wrenchers:
>  I have installed several closed loop glycol/PV driven circ pump thermal
> systems, kept it simple and let the PV control the circ pump: suns out and
> the fluid moves. These systems were configured this way due to the thermal
> panels being lower or equeal in height to the storage tanks and the lack
of
> grid power. They have worked well and are pretty much maintance free. One
> draw back is in the morning there is a 1, maybe 1 1/2 degree temp drop as
> measured in the storage tank due to the sun telling the circ pump to run
> what can be 100 plus degree stored fluid through the ice cold panels, its
> momentary, and just at start up. The storage tank temps quickly rise and
the
> system works great the rest of the day (40 to 45 degree rise in a 500
gallon
> tank using 6 GOBI 4x8 thermal panels, and thats during the winter, about 6
> hours full sun at my site, clear sky of course).
>
>   This minor drop in temp at startup I have always considered worth the
> simplicity of the closed loop/PV driven systems. I recently reconfigured
my
> own thermal space heating system and without really cogitating over it set
> it up as a closed looper, and its working well. But, since the 6 Heliodyne
> panels are, in my case, higher then the storage tank, in retrospect I
should
> have set it up as a drainback system and eliminated that minor temp drop
at
> startup. The other advantage I see over the closed loop system will be in
> the summer,  in the past with the closed loopers, being too lazy to drain
> them down for the summer and recharge them in the fall, I simply cover the
> thermal and PV panels with  OSB/plywood and come heating season uncover
them
> and everything comes to life. I ran one system like this for over 15 years
> and NEVER had to mess with it (didn't know about checking the PH) those
> panels were bought used, sold for what I paid for them, and are still
> cranking out the BTU's on a friends house. Am I correct that with the
> drainback systems it is OK to simply let them idle throughout the summer
> months, empty of fluid? That would be a huge advantage, not having to deal
> with the end of the heating season/cover them up ritual. Plus, very rarely
> snow will not melt off the PV panel soon enough to stop the thermal panels
> from overheating, a drainback system will solve that also.
>
>  As to the differential controller, all I can find are 120VAC models,
> meaning my 4024SW will have to be ON all the time, I still cling to the
old
> habit of keeping it OFF as much as possible, even though my home system
> (1200 watts PV + a 1000w Whisper H-80) keeps my batteries topped off by
noon
> most days, even in the winter. Nonetheless in order to keep the inverter
OFF
> as much as possible, especially during the long winter nights, as of now I
> am planning to install a timer to turn on a small load, just sufficent to
> wake the inverter, before the sun comes out, and off after it sets,
> (approximated as the seasons change) ensuring the diff controller will
have
> AC when it needs it.
>
>  Anyone have any other ideas as to how to keep the diff controller happy
> other then just leave the inverter on all the time?
>
> Tom Simko
> Skyline Solar
> Inkom, Idaho
>
>
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
>
> List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
>
>
>

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out005.tpca.net [66.180.244.25] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A0541EE0144; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:04:04 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: William Miller <wrmiller at slonet.org>
Subject: Re: Inverter war story? [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:00:36 -0800
Message-ID: <2061067318-1463792638-1042063352 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042063350.inmta002.29240.1019433>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
Return-Path: <wrmiller at slonet.org>
Received: (qmail 16463 invoked by alias); 8 Jan 2003 22:02:29 -0000
Received: (qmail 16458 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2003 22:02:29 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO dc-mx18.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.8.28)
  by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 22:02:29 -0000
Received: from [24.205.245.60] (HELO Jethro)
  by dc-mx18.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9)
  with SMTP id 19402095 for RE-wrenches at topica.com; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 17:06:50 -0500
X-Sender: wrmiller at slonet.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
In-Reply-To: <1285086465-1463792382-1042051739 at topica.com>
References: <77243000-1463792126-1042035518 at topica.com>
 <2115814499-1463792638-1042047441 at topica.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out005.tpca.net ([66.180.244.25]).

At 09:50 AM 1/8/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>Wrenches,
>
>
>The settings on the Trace are factory defaults with the exception of; bulk
>volts at 58.5VDC, float volts at 52VDC, & 52.5VDC for the sell volts.  The
>C40 was set to 58.5 on the bulk volts also, and 53 on the float.  This was
>changed on the advice of the techs at my distributorship, and the idea was
>to reduce battery water use, and Increase the power sold to the grid.
>
>
>-------------
>On a separate subject: Has anyone had long term success with gel batteries
>in a
>residential installation?
>

Andrew:

Regarding the grid tie settings:

I don't endorse using the C40 for grid tie systems because they are a 3
stage charge controller only.  I suggest an RV products Solar Boost set on
two stage charging.  Having said that, the systems as set up should prevent
the C-40 from leaving the bulk mode: Theoretically, the batteries will
never get above the sell voltage of 52.5.  Therefore the C-40 will never
get out of the bulk charge settings.  If the C-40 goes into automatic
equalization, your TM500 will show an inequality between charging and
consumption.  If the SW inverters are holding the battery voltage at 52.5
to sell, the C-40 may try forever to equalize.  This seems to fit your
symptoms.

You don't want the SW inverters to bulk charge at all, unless your grid
power is prone to frequent outages.  I'd set bulk time on the SWs to 0 or
10 minutes at the most.  If the SW does bulk charge (after an outage or
possibly every morning if the battery voltage gets low enough during the
night), the C-40 will go into the float mode.  It won't go back into the
bulk mode until 1 hour after the inverter stops bulk charging.  Find out
how low the batteries go at night and if they peak in the mid morning.

58.5 volts bulk setting on the SW is a bit excessive if you are
experiencing water consumption on flat batteries.  For new batteries, this
is a moderate setting.  I'd go as high as 29 if the water is checked
regularly.  Bottom line, the batteries in a grid tie system should cycle,
meaning they will not bulk daily.

The TM500 is a one shunt monitor.  Depending on where the shunt is located,
it may not know what your PV is doing for your batteries.  If the batteries
are indeed flat, the charging process is particularly inefficient.  The
more sunshine, the more you charge and the more inefficient the process
becomes.  I am no expert on the TM500, but this could explain readings.

I suggest checking the batteries and replace if necessary.  Set the bulk
timer to 0.  Check C-40 so it is not set to automatically equalize.
Consider setting max charge amps to 1 so you don't waste a lot of power
floating batteries all night with the SW inverter(s).

Re gel batteries:

I have installed a number of systems with gel batteries and I like them.  I
have them in my service vehicle running a Statpower 1800.  It is a bit
nerve wracking to have them connected to SW inverters since the default
bulk charging and EQ volts are too high.  I label the DC inverter breakers:
 If these breakers ever open, call this number immediately____." This is so
I can race out to the site and reprogram the inverter before the batteries
are damaged.  I don't believe damage can occur easily in such a situation,
but I am cautious (I wish Xanthrax would get it together to at least lower
the default voltage settings, or better yet, get non-volatile memory!).

Set up charging equipment carefully and you won't have any problems.

William Miller

__________________________________________________________________
William Miller
Miller Power and Communications
PO Box 50, Santa Margarita, CA 93453
Voice :805-438-5600		Fax: 805-438-4607	VMail: 805-546-4875
email: wrmiller at slonet.org
http://millerpowerandcomm.com
License No. C-10-773985
_____________________________________________________________
Compatibility:
Word processor: WP7
Spreadsheet: Quatro Pro 7
CAD: Microstation 95, DXF, Visio 4.1T
_____________________________________________________________
"Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under."
                                    H. L. Mencken
__________________________________________________________________

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out009.tpca.net [66.180.244.29] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A25229300DA; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:12:34 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: William Miller <wrmiller at slonet.org>
Subject: Re: Inverter war story? [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:07:56 -0800
Message-ID: <354030870-1463792638-1042063865 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042063861.inmta007.17291.1015655>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
Return-Path: <wrmiller at slonet.org>
Received: (qmail 7595 invoked by alias); 8 Jan 2003 22:11:00 -0000
Received: (qmail 7588 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2003 22:11:00 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO mx17.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.8.27)
  by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 22:11:00 -0000
Received: from [24.205.245.60] (HELO Jethro)
  by mx17.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9)
  with SMTP id 18445538 for RE-wrenches at topica.com; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 17:10:56 -0500
X-Sender: wrmiller at slonet.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
In-Reply-To: <2061067318-1463792638-1042063352 at topica.com>
References: <1285086465-1463792382-1042051739 at topica.com>
 <77243000-1463792126-1042035518 at topica.com>
 <2115814499-1463792638-1042047441 at topica.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out009.tpca.net ([66.180.244.29]).

Correction:  the following paragraph should read as shown.  It originally
said "as high as 29..."

William

>58.5 volts bulk setting on the SW is a bit excessive if you are
>experiencing water consumption on flat batteries.  For new batteries, this
>is a moderate setting.  I'd go as high as 59 if the water is checked
>regularly.  Bottom line, the batteries in a grid tie system should cycle,
>meaning they will not bulk daily.
>

__________________________________________________________________
William Miller
Miller Power and Communications
PO Box 50, Santa Margarita, CA 93453
Voice :805-438-5600     Fax: 805-438-4607	
email: wrmiller at slonet.org
http://millerpowerandcomm.com
License No. C-10-773985
_____________________________________________________________
Compatibility:
Word processor: WP10
Spreadsheet: Quatro Pro 10
CAD: Microstation 95, DXF, Visio 4.1T
_____________________________________________________________
"Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under."
                                    H. L. Mencken
__________________________________________________________________

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out003.tpca.net [66.180.244.23] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A39E4D00F2; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:18:06 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: Bill Brooks <billb at endecon.com>
Subject: RE: Inverter war story? [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:15:36 -0800
Message-ID: <179347786-1463792638-1042064199 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042064197.inmta007.17292.1003686>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
Return-Path: <billb at endecon.com>
Received: (qmail 10155 invoked by alias); 8 Jan 2003 22:16:37 -0000
Received: (qmail 10150 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2003 22:16:37 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO mx-out.daemonmail.net) (216.104.160.39)
  by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 22:16:37 -0000
Received: from mx0.emailqueue.net (localhost.daemonmail.net [127.0.0.1])
	by mx-out.daemonmail.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA29541
	for <RE-wrenches at topica.com>; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:16:37 -0800 (PST)
	(envelope-from billb at endecon.com)
Received: from  (64.175.242.188 [64.175.242.188])
	by mail.endecon.com with SMTP id Jg70pkD2
	Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:16:35 -0700 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <1285086465-1463792382-1042051739 at topica.com>
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out003.tpca.net ([66.180.244.23]).

Andrew,

You should not be dispatching your battery at all in a grid-tie application
unless you are trying to take advantage of a very good time-of-use rate. If
you are on a flat electric rate, set your grid usage time settings to the
same value and run the system 24/7 in float mode. This also provides the
advantage of using the temperature compensation to protect the battery.

When you are using the grid usage timer, those settings are not temperature
compensated so you may have a charge controller compensating while the
inverter is not--this is a bad situation. Both inverter and controller have
to compensate. It is good to have the charge controller set 1 Volt higher
than the inverter so that the temperature compensators never reach the same
value (each compensator has a slightly different compensation slope value).

Good luck with your new set of batteries. Use AGM VRLA batteries for your
next set. L-16s have a higher discharge rate at float voltage.

Bill.

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Bortz [mailto:solarman2 at attbi.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 9:50 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: SPAM: Inverter war story? [RE-wrenches]

Wrenches,

One of my client PV systems is acting up.  This is a Trace SW4048 system
being operated as a combination utility intertie (sell mode) & battery
back-up system.  There is a 1KW PV array, Trace C40 charge controller, and
(8) Trojan L-16 batteries in series (three years old & probably dead from
overcharging now).

The settings on the Trace are factory defaults with the exception of; bulk
volts at 58.5VDC, float volts at 52VDC, & 52.5VDC for the sell volts.  The
C40 was set to 58.5 on the bulk volts also, and 53 on the float.  This was
changed on the advice of the techs at my distributorship, and the idea was
to reduce battery water use, and Increase the power sold to the grid.

The problem: On SUNNY days the TM500 monitor is indicating that the
batteries are getting discharged down to 55% (selling?).  And on cloudy days
the monitor indicates the batteries discharge down to 80 or 85%.  It looks
like we are charging the batteries up overnight, and then selling too much
during the day.  But, why would we sell more on sunny than on cloudy days
given the settings?  My understanding is that the selling should typically
keep the batteries above 80%.

I suppose there could be a set up problem with the TM500 monitor, but I
think the dead batteries say there's a bigger problem!
-------------
On a separate subject: Has anyone had long term success with gel batteries
in a
residential installation?

Any help would be appreciated,

Andrew,
Solar Design

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================

Received: from out004.tpca.net [66.180.244.24] by mail.homepower.com
  (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8ACC60050; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 15:47:56 -0800
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
From: matthew tritt <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: Re: OutBack FX2024 (was cheap GC-1000) [RE-wrenches]
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:40:40 -0800
Message-ID: <288047641-1463747838-1042069584 at topica.com>
Errors-To: <blst-errors.1300002502.0.1300215577.009.0.0 at boing.topica.com>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
X-Topica-Id: <1042069581.inmta007.17291.1018179>
List-Help: <http://topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com>
X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring
X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated
X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm)
X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this
X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas
X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant
X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this
X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>;.
Return-Path: <solarone at charter.net>
Received: (qmail 15437 invoked by alias); 8 Jan 2003 23:46:20 -0000
Received: (qmail 15432 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2003 23:46:20 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO dc-mx12.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.8.22)
  by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2003 23:46:20 -0000
Received: from [66.215.59.129] (HELO boombox)
  by dc-mx12.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9)
  with SMTP id 65655224 for RE-wrenches at topica.com; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 18:46:18 -0500
References: <486393400-1463747838-1042061593 at topica.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: OSSRC
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from out004.tpca.net ([66.180.244.24]).

Christopher,

Thanks for all the good info.

Another question came to my attention today, concerning multiple stacked
inverters. As I remember, there will eventually be the possibility of
stacking as many as 8 inverters, true or false? If true (and I sure hope
so), how will generator input be handled? Say someone has a 12 k genset
running at 230. Will the inputs be divided somehow to allow for all
inverters to be chargers, or???

Thanks,

Matt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Freitas - OutBack Power" <cfreitas at outbackpower.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 1:33 PM
Subject: OutBack FX2024 (was cheap GC-1000) [RE-wrenches]

> Here is the latest information on the OutBack FX2024 inverter/charger
> system.  I am limiting my discussion to just the points Matthew Tritt
> raised but am happy to answer any other question you might have either
> here on the wrenches list or off-line via email or phone.
>
> We have been shipping the FX2024 on a limited basis for specific
> applications.  The units we are shipping are intended for only
> non-stacked systems, off-grid or backup systems.  There are a number of
> improvements we are testing which will be available very soon.  We have
> held off on production of the Fx2048 until these issues have been
> resolved.
>
> When we started the beta testing of the FX2024 the no load / idle power
> consumption was under 20 watts with a sine wave output.  We found some
> problems with the AC output waveform regulation at very small load
> levels and made the decision to switch to an alternative method for
> efficiently powering small loads we called "power mizer".  With this
> mode the power mizer's operation could be adjusted to draw as little as
> 12 watts (but 22 watts is typical for the default settings).  The power
> mizer mode is a quasi-sinewave output and is intended for only
> electronic loads such as CF lights and other small ac loads -
> stereo/answering machines.  Without the power mizer mode enabled the no
> load "idle" power draw has been about 50 watts.  When the load exceeds
> 100 watts the inverter automatically switches to full sinewave
> operation.  The power mizer mode can be disabled using the MATE system
> controller/display.
>
> We have not been satisfied with the power mizer solution and have
> continued working on another method of reducing the no load / idle power
> consumption.  Last week we finalized the design of a simple modification
> which reduces the no load / idle power draw to as low as 18 watts under
> most conditions with a real sinewave output.  We are completing the
> final testing of this method at this time and will be posting more
> information including the new efficiency curves on our website shortly.
>
>
> The good news is that this modification can be made to any of the
> previously shipped units and a kit will be provided at no charge to
> allow for field upgrading.  Installation of the kit requires only common
> hand tools and no software changes are necessary.  The modification also
> does not affect our ETL listing of the FX2024 either.
>
> With this modification installed the FX2024 has similar idle power
> consumption to other inverters available without the problems of a
> co-inverter (as with Vanner) or a poor quality ac waveform (as with the
> SW series).  Since our design is modular we can turn off the excess
> capacity to maximize the efficiency under various load levels when
> multiple inverters are "stacked" for higher power or 120/240 vac.
>
> The FX2000 include only a single AC input for the utility or generator
> connection.  We plan on offering a seperate AC1/AC2 transfer switch to
> allow automatic operation of systems with both utility grid and
> generator power sources.  Having two AC inputs on each inverter adds too
> much complexity to the modular design and adds cost to all the units
> even though many people do not use both of the AC inputs.
>
> The MATE system controller and display is required for programming of
> the inverter's setpoints but can be removed once the unit is programmed
> (all settings are stored in non-volatile memory in the inverter itself).
>  We also have terminals for connection of a remote on/off switch which
> allows you to disable or enable the search mode and reset the unit when
> an error occurs without needing the MATE on site.  All of the current
> inverter modes operate without the MATE connected, but some of the more
> advanced system operations were are developing will require a MATE to be
> installed all of the time.  For multiple inverter systems,  only a
> single MATE is required.
>
>
> Christopher Freitas
> OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
> cfreitas at outbackpower.com
> www.outbackpower.com
> Tel 360 435 6030
> Arlington WA USA
>
>
> matthew tritt wrote:
>
> > I heard the first negative report on the Outback 2000 yesterday! Sounds
> > like several things are going to cause fits for installers and
> > customers.
>
> > 1: 50 Watt (!) no load consumption in "on" position (that's 24 hours a
> > day, folks; The SW has only 16)
>
> > 2: Only one "AC In" connection. No possibility for both grid and genset
> > at the same time.
>
> > 3: Poor wave form in "power save" mode (still draws 22 amps!)
>
> > 4: Requires external control to operate certain programming modes (extra
> > expense).
>
> > These are not the only problems, but enough to start "dialogue". :-)
>
> > And we were hoping for a miracle! Is it on the way??
> >
> > Matt T
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
>
> List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
>
> Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
>
> Hosted by Home Power magazine
>
> Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
>
>
>

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================