Inverters for GT with Batteries [RE-wrenches]
Christopher Freitas - OutBack Power
cfreitas at outbackpower.com
Tue Sep 9 21:07:05 PDT 2003
Marco wrote:
> Is there any reason to think that the grid-tied Outback--whenever it's
> ready for that application--will not go through the bugs and burn-in
> period that every other grid-tied inverter has gone through? This
> inverter does come from former Xantrex engineers who were closely
> involved with the grid-tied SWs, right? While I'm NOT on Beacon Power's
> payroll, I do believe that the M5 will certainly be an improvement over
> the MM3/5 and will benefit from the travails of the MMs under AEI.
Hey Marco - you should probably stick with discussing subjects you know
more fully...
Greg Thomas and Robin Gudgel where Xantrex employees for about two
months - then I (their former boss) was forced to fire them. I then
went part time (I needed the medical coverage) and relieved myself from
all management responsibilities. The problems Xantrex had with the SW
and UL did not occur until well after I fired Greg/Robin and I had left.
None of us here at OutBack consider ourselves to have been Xantrex
employees voluntarily.
The reality is that the problems that the SW has with being a grid tied
inverter are all the results of it being a 10 year old design that was
never seriously updated (even the SW+ does not seem to be a major
overhaul in my opinion). All of the SW's problems can be fixed - given
enough time, money and the right people. We were never given the
opportunity to really update the SW - but had to instead add patches and
fixes to the original design.
We at OutBack have benefitted tremendously from the experience we gained
in designing, building and supporting the SW series for many years - not
because we know how it works or how it did things - but because we know
how NOT to do it again. Sure we still make mistakes - but we have to try
a lot harder now.
I can say we probably know more about doing grid tie inverters with
energy storage than any other engineering group out there. Alternative
energy power inverters are what we do - period. How many other 10 year
old electronic products (like the SW series) are still built today and
are considered competitive - especially in an emerging market like PV?
I am sure the perfomance of the Beacon MM-5 will be better than the AEI
version - heck, that wouldn't be hard to do at all... but if you think
that beacon doesn't have a lot to learn about grid tie inverter design,
then you are fooling yourself in my opinion.
We here at OutBack could have come out with a grid tie inverter months
or even a year ago - but we decided to hold off in order to get the
other aspect of our design completed such as stacking multiple units
(which the MM-5 never did) and working well with generators (which the
MM-5 never did) and having a well developed networked remote display
(which the MM-5 never had at all).
We have released 12 versions of the OutBack FX series now - 12-24-48
vdc, US & export outputs, sealed & vented models. AEI/Beacon have just
one. We have over 1500 OutBack inverters in the field now - how many did
AEI build? 50? 100? How many does Beacon have out there right now?
Designing a grid tie inverter with energy storage is harder than you
might think - but the grid tie capability is actually one of the easier
parts - its doing the rest of it (like battery charging / transferring
to inverter from grid / stacking / generator ...) that is hard. When you
have a battery connected to an inverter and do something dumb - you have
a much bigger potential for a problem than when you have a "whimpy"
current limited PV array.
So Marco - I would say that the record of the OutBack Engineers (don't
call us "former xantrex" again please) stands on its own merit. And so
do our products for that matter.
You are certainly welcome to not buy our inverters until you feel they
are proven - just don't fool yourself into thinking that you shouldn't
do the same with any other "new" inverters either.
This makes me wonder why Xantrex and SMA were so eager to buy the first
OutBack FX inverters and MPPTs controller available - using your logic,
they should have waited!
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas at outbackpower.com www.outbackpower.com
Tel 360 435 6030 Arlington WA USA
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