Hydrogen Economy [RE-wrenches]

James Lamb, Middle Fork Engineering j.lamb at pecorp.com
Tue Feb 11 10:53:52 PST 2003


One way to transport Hydrogen is to use the already natrural Gas pipelines
thats inplace.
It is posible to add up to 30% Hydrogen mixed with natural gas.
Only minor modifications would be required.
A higher level of H2 will start affecting the stength of the pipeline metal.

There is plenty of sun in the western states where the pipeline starts. Also
H2 could be stored underground as well like Natural Gas.
Jim Lamb
Middlefork Engineering  

-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Elliott [mailto:larry at energyoutfitters.com]
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 11:46 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Bush Hydrogen/Solar (was Real Industry) [RE-wrenches]





> Hi Lawrence,
>
> O.K., I stand ready to be convinced! I find it hard to see how $7.00 a
Watt
> works better than $ 0.98 a Watt though. Maybe you're figuring some
kind of
> major breakthroughs in PV production technology into the equation?
Working
> in both wind and PV for all these years has given me a strong belief
in the
> efficacy of large-scale wind over solar.
>


 Hello Matthew .

Generally like everything in life the devils in the details.

You are right that wind is lower cost per kw than PV but here is the
rub.

We are converting electricity to h2 so we have to find a way of getting
the h2 to the end user.
I am working on the exact numbers right now and will have them available
soon but transporting h2 like we do gasoline is extremely inneficient. A
kilogram of h2 is roughly equivalent to a gallon of gasoline.
Here I am discussing gaseous h2 since liquifying will take at least 1/3
of the energy in a kg of h2 simply to get it to liquid state.
When we look at the numbers for transportation of equivalent energy by
truck it makes no economic sense since we are transporting more weight
by a factor of about 10 in the form of the truck than we are in energy.
Now add the energy used for diesel fuel and it gets even worse. If we
transport using a h2 truck the numbers get even worse.

Since we ideally need to use the h2 as close to the source as possible
to make the numbers work out PV is still the only practical power
supply.

Sure some minor number of people could use wind locally if they are
lucky to have a good wind site but............

Yes we could locate the electrolyzer locally and use wind power from a
distance and that is an option but my money is still on getting away
from the grid entirely.

And you comment that electrolysis takes a "huge" amount of energy to
work.

I can produce h2 on as little power as a flashlight battery.
A 50 kw array is thought to be huge. If we dump the power to the grid at
say %67 efficiency overall we are still behind electrolysis which is
demonstrated at as high as %92 efficient.
With the grid tie we have given away %33 to waste and that's before the
grid wastes even more and then the user wastes even more.
If we electrolyzer water at %92 efficiency and store it as h2 we have
lost only %8.
What we do with that energy now determines the overall conversion
efficiency.
It will make more sense to produce h2 on site with %8 losses and then
use it for transportation.
That is why I say PV is still the better choice.

Thanks for listening.

BTW I spend about 20 hours each week doing research on what is going on
in h2 and the renewable world.
I still say wrenches and the grid tie people ignore the symbiotic and
excellent relationship between RE and h2 at their disadvantage and will
live to regret it.

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com


-----------------------------------------
The information transmitted is intended only for the person
or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael_welch at sbcglobal.net

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9.bWljaGFl
Or send an email to: re-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html
==^================================================================




More information about the RE-wrenches mailing list