Vanner [RE-wrenches]

[matthew tritt]

Lawrence,

This is really illuminating news! When I researched the inverter/inverter
"problems" with Hays, they specifically excluded their pump from inverter
operation. I now get the feeling that the motor and controller mfg's simply
didn't know so they said no to avoid problems. They were worried about
inverter lock-up (whatever that means) in their controller and then motor
failure or inverter failure.

My argument was then that since the SW puts out 60 hz sinewave, the
operation of the pump should be the same as if being operated from the grid.
Lord knows that the grid is plenty dirty, so you would think that that was
taken into account when they designed their pumps!

Maybe I'll try the SQ instead of the Hays. :-)

Matt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Elliott" <larry at energyoutfitters.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:24 PM
Subject: Re: Vanner [RE-wrenches]


> Matthew.
> Thanks for the input.
> I hope your wrong since I have several installs using the SQ including
> the VFD option.
> So far my off grid has been running for at least 1 year without a
> glitch.
> My other on grid using a 1/2 hp SQ also has had no problems since
> install over 9 months ago.
> The install with the problems has a utility supplied data logger that
> looks for glitches and so far the downloads have shown nothing other
> than less then clean grid power.
> In fact it is truly filthy when compared to a good inverter output.
> But by filthy I don't mean anything serious enough to cause pump
> failures.
> It does tick me off though that "we" have to meet such stringent
> standards while Ready Kilowatt can get away with less than clean power.
> Just as an aside I have one off grid that has a 1 1/2 hp SQ and  a 3/4
> hp jet pump coupled through a common pressure switch.
> In the year since it has been installed the Vanner RE 24vdc has been
> able to start both simultaneously even when the household loads have
> been in the range of 1-1.5 kw.
> Due primarily to no surge on the SQ I am aware but
> still...................
> The pump installer did this so that the pressure was over 50 psi for
> shut off due to the SQ being at its limits for head.
> I must say that the Vanner when used in off grid has been pretty bullet
> proof and takes a hell of a surge without a hiccup.
>
> As to the SQ and "inverter to inverter interference" I would think that
> since the power to the pump inverter is first rectified and if the
> ripple is kept low with filtering there really should be no problem.
> No IEE but just my opinion.
>
> And Joel I agree on the caps.
> It's one scary time when a cap blows.
> Don't try charging your EV with a Curtiss controller from an unfiltered
> power supply without the batteries being on line first .
> Blows the caps and also the entire back cover off.
>
> I learned this the hard and expensive way.
> I have some really toasty ones in the shop with labels on them just to
> remind me.
> As to the fuel cell/ultra cap thing I am now building a 4wd hydrogen
> hybrid using a large bank of Maxwell ultra caps. In my experiments with
> home built and commercial fuel cells I don't see how the two will ever
> be kept separate.
> The surge on a fuel cell can be very poor and the caps make them perform
> quite well.
> They also do not "throttle" very well without the caps
> I still marvel at these little beasts being able to store in excess of
> 2700 farads in a package that weighs less than two pounds and is the
> size of a coke bottle and yet can stand 600 amps repeatedly and 3000
> amps short circuit.
> Neat stuff for sure.
>
> Larry Elliott
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "matthew tritt" <solarone at charter.net>
> To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Vanner [RE-wrenches]
>
>
> > Lawrence,
> >
> > As I remember, the Grundfos SQ is a variable speed "constant pressure"
> > submersible. Is that right?
> > If so, your customer is running an inverter with an inverter, which is
> a
> > no-no in the pumping world.
> > I did some investigation on this same subject in regards to the Hayes
> > constant pressure pumps which use a similar method of achieving a
> variable
> > speed AC pump.It was determined that, since the variable speed is
> achieved
> > with an inverter controller, it would either not work at all or would
> damage
> > the pump motor.
> >
> > Hopefully I'm wrong here!
> >
> > Matt
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lawrence Elliott" <larry at energyoutfitters.com>
> > To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> > Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 10:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: Vanner [RE-wrenches]
> >
> >
> > > Joel.
> > >
> > > I have three Vanners out now for about 10 months.
> > >
> > > 1 off grid
> > > 2 grid intertie with backup..
> > >
> > >
> > > Negatives.
> > > They have a problem staying on line in sell mode. Frequent shut
> downs
> > > although I suspect primarily due to the overly agressive and in some
> > > cases silly regs in UL1741.
> > > Had two that "leaked  FET smoke" for unknown reasons.
> > > Slow response from Vanner engineering in truly solving the grid tie
> > > problems although they have been working on it and now may have
> solved
> > > the problems in 48vdc models.
> > > The units are still not ready for prime time in off grid mode due to
> > > lack of generator start or ability to reliably charge from
> generator.
> > > Remote is not very intuitive and clumsy in navigating the menus and
> > > setups.
> > > My opinion is manuals need complete rewrite.
> > > Bad habit of display lockup when left in certain modes for lenghty
> > > periods.
> > > CD software included is better but still could use some work.
> > > One customer is certain that the inverter has been responsible for
> > > killing a second Grudfos SQ pump but I am not convinced.
> > > Pump installer would like it to be so.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Positives
> > >
> > > In one of my installs with 3 kw wind and 2.4 kw PV in sell mode we
> have
> > > seen as high as 70% overall efficiency in passing 4kw to the grid
> and at
> > > times 6kw peaks at slightly less efficiency
> > > Very clean power, good surge capability in backup mode and very
> quiet.
> > > Ergonomically much easier to install than Trace SW and much cleaner
> > > overall without optional conduit box.
> > >
> > > Both customers are satisfied except for the fact that they will not
> act
> > > as a UPS due to fault when grid goes down and they still have too
> > > frequent grid drop outs per day.
> > > (as many as 6-7 times per day with 5 min restart times)
> > >
> > > By synthetic battery they mean a small bank of electrolytic
> capacitors
> > > that allows the inverter to deliver power when grid goes down and
> sun is
> > > shining.
> > > Very limited due to lack of any real capacity in the caps so any
> > > variations in load can easily drop inverter off line.
> > > I have suggested they look at 2-3 thousand farads Ultracaps to
> improve
> > > performance.
> > > My opinion is that it has limited usefulness as SunLynx product and
> has
> > > a hefty price tag.
> > >
> > >
> > > Refuse to sell additional units until bugs are worked out.
> > >
> > > Larry Elliott
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Vanner advertises the Sunlynx SLX as a non-battery "system" with a
> > > > "synthetic battery." Anyone using this device? What is a synthetic
> > > > battery?
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
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