utility obfuscation and obstruction [RE-wrenches]

Tue May 7 07:50:59 PDT 2002

Wrenches:

For the last month or so I have been stopping when I see a utility crew
and asking them if they know about any list for locations of RE systems
and disconnect.
So far I am 4 for 4 - They don't know about any list and they say that
during an outage they don't have time to go around looking for these
switches anyway.
They tell me they ground everything before they work on it - just like
they are taught in lineman's school.
Seems they think it is better to ground it that to chance getting
electrocuted by someone hooking up their Honda generator.

Best Regards,

John Berdner

-----Original Message-----
From: asap at podnine.com [mailto:aesap at podnine.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 10:02 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: utility obfuscation and obstruction [RE-wrenches]

Jeff, Larry, Wrenches,
Been waiting to tell this story...SDG&E territory here in S. CA.

A customer reported a planned outage for work in their area.  I had just
spent some time with the SDG&E Principal Administrator for Distribution
Management, etal and got her blessing finally on a grid-tie with battery
backup in the middle of a circa 80's construction suburban neighborhood.
I say finally, cuz she made a big hullabaloo about the system being
"mapped" first and clearly noted on the maps that their linemen
use--this had to be done well before we could be allowed to parallel to
make sure it was "in the system" as far as the special maps the linemen
use when they work in a particular area for whatever reason.

We were/are also required to have a "plaque" next to the service
entry/panel box area that clearly pointed out that solar electric
devices were on the roof and that this thing with the handle on it was a
visible breaker/disconnect, inverter here, batteries there, etal.

She also mentioned that SDG&E had just went through some rather
dictatorial sessions with line crew managers about looking for grid-tied
systems and utilizing the disconnect/visible breaker, what PV stands
for, etc, all for
their own safety of course.   We got our letter for auth to parallel in
about the normal delay time of about 5 days after the SDG&E inspection,
which itself was prompted by the local jurisdiction permitting
inspectors having notified SDG&E.  This required a seperate set of phone
calls to remind the City that this was their job and their protocol.
The city inspector had forgotten when he got back to the office.
Anyway, assuming the system was mapped and that we were all good with
everyone concerned, I thought I'd wait for the outage to occur, check on
the backup power delivery from the inverter, and of course, chat with
the crew manager when he came to engage the disco.  So arranged with the
customer who would be gone, I was there, but no SDG&E.  The power went
out and the SW performed flawlessly and the batteries delivered for the
next 4 hours.

I went and found the guys around the corner on a more arterial street in
the neighborhood.  After some discussion, they all agreed that if "she
said to do it, we had better go do it", but that "we're safe since we
ground everything we work on" and they thought no more about it, but the
crew manager then said he'd like to follow me back to the house and
throw the disconnect handle down.  I made him promise to turn it back on
after they were done in the area, since I didn't feel the need to stick
around for all the un-excitement.  A phone call to the customer the next
morning verified what I already knew--they lost the rest of the day's
sunshine.  A follow-up conversation with the Administrator was met with
only slightly embarassed tone in her voice and she demanded details and
times and names, although I didn't take any.  It was par for the course
from what I've seen and I've only worked with three main ESP's here in
CA and one muni (Riverside).  They want it and demand it but don't
really seem to think about using it in actual practice.  But there you
go, one incident where I've actually seen the switch thrown by a
utility.  Basically, I had to encourage them to do it!  Everyone really
liked the plaque though.

Peter Duchon
http://www.podnine.com/asap_power
Photovoltaics * Wind Power * Fuel Cells
mailto:asap at podnine.com
USA 866-724-3444 * Cell 760-717-3779

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources [mailto:global at sover.net]
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 7:59 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches at topica.com'
Subject: RE: utility obfuscation and obstruction [RE-wrenches]

Lawrence,

You're absolutely right. There is NO valid technical reason for the
disconnect. IEEE 929 proved that once and for all (Utilities or states
are "allowed" to adopt the requirement for a disco if "required" for
labor or administrative reasons. There are NO technical reasons provided
in IEEE 929 for the disco.)

Question for EVERYONE:

Who knows of a net metering system where the utility has USED the
disconnect?

Anyone?

There is no evidence of any disconnect ever having been used in VT.

I'd like to know as much detail about any incident if one was
disconnected by the utility.

Jeff

On Monday, May 06, 2002 10:42 PM, Lawrence  Elliott
[SMTP:larry at energyoutfitters.com] wrote:
> Jeffrey.
> Thought you might find it interesting that just a few hours ago I was 
> able to ask one of the officials from a local Muni utility and he said

> point blank that no disconnect of any kind on a grid intertie system 
> is required in their service territory. This either means that the 
> utility is very irresponsible and has no regard for the saftey of 
> their service personel or this requirement by any utility is simply a 
> silly and essentially brain dead attempt at making you life diffucult.
> Personally I don't think this utility disregards safety.
>
> I say challenge this crap with a vigor.
>
> Larry Elliott
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources" <global at sover.net>
> To: "'RE- wrenches at topica.com'" <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 7:20 PM
> Subject: utility obfuscation and obstruction [RE-wrenches]
>
>
> > Just received a letter today from our local big utility wannabe.
> Central
> > Vermont "Public Service" is Vermont's largest utility, but tiny on a

> > national scale. But they try to be lke the big guys, and aparently
> take
> > their cues from the folks at NIMO.
> >
> > I've installed quite a few systems in their territory, and for the
> past two
> > years, I've used the Milbank airconditioning type disconnect as the 
> > "utility accessible, locakable, load break rated, visible break
> disconnect
> > switch..." required in the Vermont (and many other) state net 
> > metering regulations.
> >
> > today, I received a letter from CVPS as follows:
> >
> > "Dear Mr. Wolfe:
> >
> > "It has come to my attention that your Company has installed Milbank
> air
> > conditioning disconnects in lieu of the required disconnect switch 
> > on
> at
> > least three Net Metered customers.
> >
> > "This device is a disconnect NOT a switch. It does not meet the 
> > requirements of VT PSB Rule 5.100 " A utility accessible, locakable,
> load
> > break rated, visible break disconnect switch with safe working
> clearances
> > is required for all installations.
> >
> > "We are hereby requesting that the locations in question be
> retro-fitted
> > with the correct type of switch as soon as possible.
> >
> > "If you have any questions, please contact me.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> >
> > Allan D. St. Peter, P.E.
> > Electrical Engineer
> >
> > Is this utility trying to block RE? or just being safety conscious?
> The
> > little Milbank disconnects have been recommended for this service 
> > by,
> among
> > others, John Wiles. (I spoke with him today, and received a few
> pointers
> > for combating this, which I will do.) I'm not sure how quibbling 
> > about
> the
> > definition of a "swtich" is really helping RE move forward. It's 
> > interesting to note of course, that no code or standard, to my
> knowledge,
> > has a clear definition of what a "visible break disconnect switch" 
> > is. According to everything I can read in NEC, the Milbank fits the 
> > description. (As John pointed out, one cannot safely trust the 
> > handle
> of a
> > safety switch to indicate the open or closed position. The mechanism
> CAN
> > break. One must see the contacts, which requires opening the safety
> > switch.)
> >
> > So I've just written notes to the homeowners (who were copied by 
> > CVPS
> on
> > the above letter) reassuring them that their installation is safe 
> > and
> code
> > compliant.
> >
> > We'll fight this. It will be interesting to see if CVPS attempts to 
> > disconnect the customers' systems. They'd either have to pull the
> meter,
> > or, shudder, use the Milbank switch.
> >
> > I'll let you know how we make out. Any contributions to the defense
> fund
> > should be kept cold and presented at the MREF.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > - - - -
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> >
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> >
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> >
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>
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