Listing Issues--summed up [RE-wrenches]

Bill Brooks billb at endecon.com
Tue Jul 23 16:33:12 PDT 2002


Frank,

Let's back the truck all the way up to the beginning and remove welding
cable from the discussion for a moment.

The NEC does not require that everything has to be listed! The only place in
the code it even says that something must be listed is in article 690:

690.60 Identified Interactive Equipment. Only inverters
and ac modules listed and identified as interactive shall be
permitted in interactive systems.

Here endeth the first lesson****

In article 90.7 it says:

90.7 Examination of Equipment for Safety. For specific
items of equipment and materials referred to in this Code,
examinations for safety made under standard conditions
provide a basis for approval where the record is made generally
available through promulgation by organizations
properly equipped and qualified for experimental testing,
inspections of the run of goods at factories, and service-value
determination through field inspections. This avoids
the necessity for repetition of examinations by different
examiners, frequently with inadequate facilities for such
work, and the confusion that would result from conflicting
reports on the suitability of devices and materials examined
for a given purpose.
It is the intent of this Code that factory-installed internal
wiring or the construction of equipment need not be
inspected at the time of installation of the equipment, except
to detect alterations or damage, if the equipment has
been listed by a qualified electrical testing laboratory that is
recognized as having the facilities described in the preceding
paragraph and that requires suitability for installation in
accordance with this Code.

Here endeth the second lesson***

This is an elegant explanation of why it is cheaper to have listed
equipment. In other words, the inspector has to make sure that everything is
properly tested before they check a system off. Since only a few very large
jurisdictions like Miami-Dade, Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, and San
Francisco actually have their own testing facilities (very expensive I might
add), they rely on testing from Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories
(NRTLs) among whom UL and ETL are the most universally accepted
organizations. The inspectors also do not want the associated liability that
is inherent in the testing profession. There is NO POLITICAL CONSPIRACY here
to subvert PV systems by requiring all sorts of rediculous requirements.
There is, however, a very real desire of inspectors to cover one's own
posterior (they don't get paid enough for that) by having someone else do
the testing.

Everyone likes to give UL hell, but if ETL were the biggest game in town I
bet they would abuse their power more than UL has. If you think things are
tough now, just image if we didn't have article 690. Likely half of the
systems that get permitted would not get approved because inspectors would
still be trying to figure out what a PV was.

The only reason I spend large amounts of my time trying to respond to these
inaccurate world views on the Wrench List is that I believe these attitudes
are holding back our industry from making the inroads it needs to make in
the mainstream. The offstream will always be there and very little that is
done in the codes area will have much impact there.

The proposal to allow welding cable irrespective of any testing by a NRTL
flies in the face of the basis for our NEC clearly stated in 90.7. If it is
properly tested by a NRTL for the battery application, there is no
discussion and no need for an amendment. How can it be stated more simply?

I know somebody out there must be reading this and understand what I am
trying to say. This has very little to do with welding cable.

Bill.





-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Fowler, Crystal Pines Alt. Energy [mailto:cpae1 at aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 4:06 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Hypalon Cable [RE-wrenches]


In a message dated 7/23/2002 12:57:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ehroy at solar-works.com writes:


> From my perspective, the energy it took to generate the steam in this
> discussion was a helluva lot more expensive than the cost differential
> between the two types of cable!
>
>

But the issue is to get cable that is tough enough to withstand the
environmental conditions that exist in a battery installation that the NEC,
NFPA, CIA, FBI, and all other related agencies will accept for code
compliant, and safe installs. Does the NEC test them like was done in the
Homepower article, or do they just say it is designed for welding, and
nothing else?
SUNcerely,
Frank Fowler
Crystal Pines Alternative Energy
4408 Pine Cluster Ln. Yankee Hill, CA. 95965
Tel: 530-532-1972
Fax: 530-532-1359
www.solarenergy-alt.com
"Living with the products we market, install, & service"

--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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