Hypalon Cable [RE-wrenches]

Thu Jul 18 17:51:50 PDT 2002

Drake,

I think you are fighting a battle that just is not worth it. What is the
difference in cost between welding cable and the right stuff. It's not that
big of a deal. I'm sure you are referring to 690-31 in the code, but it is
referring to tracking systems that need flexible wiring not batteries.
Welding cable would clearly not be appropriate for that application.

As far as listed battery systems, that is absolutely where we need to be
rather than pieces and parts. Then we would not be having this discussion.
If a manufacturer wants to get their system listed with welding cable, more
power to them, but I guarantee none of them will use welding cable for the
very same reason the inspector won't accept it--there is no NRTL tests to
show it is made for that application. They will use the proper wiring that
has the proper listing. The bigger benefit with a listed battery system is
that EVERYTHING is specified in detail about what goes into the package.
Then the inspector can look at it to see it was installed according to the
directions, and you get no further questions. That is a good thing.

I know you feel strongly about welding cable, but given the availability of
comparable products with the appropriate listings, I don't think it is a
good use of our chits when we are trying to get more significant (and cost
saving) changes through the code making panel.

Bill.

-----Original Message-----
From: Electrical Energy [mailto:solar at eagle-access.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 5:05 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Hypalon Cable [RE-wrenches]

At 05:22 PM 7/18/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>  wouldn't it be more
>effective to try to get welding cable listed by UL for use in PV systems
>than to try to incorporate such an exception into the NEC?

That would be the ultimate way to do it.  Unfortunately it costs money to
go for a UL listing.  Welding cable is already in the code:  640-31, and
mentioned elsewhere.   It can be run in Cable Trays.  Some varieties are UL
listed as acid resistant.

A UL listing for RE battery installations would be great, but so would the
expense (I think).  Does anyone have a feel for how much it costs to go
through the UL process?  I've heard $10 K and up.  Is there any grant money
available for such things?  Would we have to get every brand of cable
listed individually.

Best,

Drake

>E. H. Roy
>Solar Works, Inc.
>64 Main Street
>Montpelier, VT 05602
>1-800-339-7804 ext. 306
>ehroy at solar-works.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Electrical Energy [mailto:solar at eagle-access.net]
>Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:26 PM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: RE: Hypalon Cable [RE-wrenches]
>
>Hi Bill,
>
>Thanks for your input.  I've been working out of town, and am too busy now
>to give this thread the attention it needs.  I am aware of the listing
>issue.  To me this seems a prime example of an institutional barrier,
>making PV more expensive and difficult than it needs to be.
>
>Welding cable is not only used by the Telcomm industry for battery
>applications, but is used for commercial battery jumpers sold by Hensley
>Battery and others.  It is still sold by many national PV distributors for
>battery and inverter connections, with thousands of installed systems, many
>of which have been up and running for decades.
>
>It is proven to work in the field.  It is the most available and
>appropriate material to use.  Yet we are  forbidden to use it in Colorado
>because a big issue was made regarding the listing glitch several years
>back.  As I understand it, not all states forbid its use.
>
>IMHO, if we want to help PV, we should try to make rules to fit the
>physical realities, not require the technology fit existing, inappropriate
>rulings.
>
>I am petitioning the NEC to make a change to allow welding cable.  If
>anyone wants to see the current draft of the proposal, contact me off the
>list, and I will send it to you as an attachment.  If anyone wants add
>their signature to the proposal, that would be great.  Feedback is welcome.
>
>Best,
>
>Drake
>
>
>
>At 09:45 AM 7/16/2002 -0700, you wrote:
> >Drake and Frank,
> >
> >Drake, I know you have had long debates on this subject so I am not
trying
> >to start a debate here. The underlying issue with listing of anything is
> >"what is it listed for." There are thousands of examples of equipment or
> >materials that are listed for one use and work well in many other uses.
>When
> >a product is listed for a specific purpose (and no other purposes), it's
> >listing only applies to that use. A great case in point are PV inverters.
> >You can get them to do many other things if you are creative, but many of
> >these inverters are only listed for PV systems--nothing else. A welding
> >cable, with no other listing marks is only good for welding. However,
many
> >cables may have multiple listings and be listed for conduit, direct
burial,
> >sunlight resistant, acid resistant, and the list goes on. Ideally we
would
> >have listed battery cables, but the best thing we can do is find cables
>that
> >are listed for the purposes and locations they are to be used (wet
> >locations, acid-resistant, proper temperatures, installable in conduit,
> >whatever is needed). Just because it has a UL on it does not mean it
works
> >for batteries. It may be UL listed to beat your dog (hey, it could
happen).
> >
> >Bill.
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Electrical Energy [mailto:solar at eagle-access.net]
> >Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 8:58 PM
> >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> >Subject: Re: Hypalon Cable [RE-wrenches]
> >
> >
> >Hypalon cable is one of the types that is acceptable to the NEC.  It is
> >rated RHH -RHW - USE.  It is finely stranded.  It isn't welding cable.
> >
> >A lot of welding cable is UL listed.  I have a request for new wording to
> >the NEC to  accept UL listed welding cable.
> >
> >Drake
> >
> >
> >At 09:27 PM 7/15/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> > >In a message dated 7/15/2002 6:03:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > >mmangelsdorf at hei.com writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > > --Whoa nellie...I thought that using welding cable for batteries was
a
> > > > hokie-pokie no-no.  I'd recommend using Cobra Cable X-flex.  It's
> > > UL-listed
> > > > to 105 degrees C, is super flexible and the best cable to work with
by
> >far.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >As far as I know any cable that is "UL" listed is okay for batteries,
but
>I
> > >may be wrong!
> > >SUNcerely,
> > >Frank Fowler
> > >Crystal Pines Alternative Energy
> > >4408 Pine Cluster Ln. Yankee Hill, CA. 95965
> > >Tel: 530-532-1972
> > >Fax: 530-532-1359
> > >www.solarenergy-alt.com
> > >"Living with the products we market, install, & service"
> > >
> > >--
> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
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