How would you handle this situation? [RE-wrenches]

[Bill Brooks]

Wrenches,

This is a very interesting thread, but I think there is a better way to deal
with this very large problem. My strong feeling is that we need independent
standards for performance and qualifications of inverters. This group of
standards needs to cover many issues. From a performance point of view,
there is currently no standard for how to perform efficiency tests on
inverters or how to test the effectiveness of maximum power point tracking
on the inverter.

Incidentally, I have mentioned briefly in the past about a project we are
getting ready to start with the California Energy Commission. It will be the
first step in establishing consumer guidelines for products and systems in
the PV world. The idea is to use a format similar to Consumer Reports to
rate PV systems. The only way this is going to be successful is if the
dealers, installers, and manufacturers embrace the process and allow it to
provide the benefit I think we all know it could provide.

Right now we are playing a game of "things that suck" and "things that
work", but I think this fundamentally misses the point. There needs to be
objective benchmark against which systems and inverters are rated so that
more of an apples-to-apples comparison can be made. The PV industry is
running to recently introduced products far too quickly without enough
information to truly make a good decision. Expecting everyone to do their
own testing is silly and will keep our industry in the dark ages.

All products today have aspects of their performance that could be improved.
However, when one product clearly outperforms another we latch onto it and
don't focus on how to improve all the competing products. We settle for
non-optimal performance because we have never seen excellent performance.

With the support of all the PV industry we hope to make a difference by
setting up some of these benchmarks that will serve the PV world for decades
to come. Wish us luck and we will be calling on the Wrenches for feedback to
make this process as effective as it can be.

Bill.

Bill Brooks
Endecon Engineering

Office:
873 Kells Circle
Vacaville, CA 95688
707-332-0761 (Voice)
707-451-7739 (Fax)
billb at endecon.com (email)

Head Office:
347 Norris Court
San Ramon, CA 94583
925-552-1330 (Voice)
925-552-1333 (Fax)
www.endecon.com


-----Original Message-----
From: jay peltz [mailto:jay at asis.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 7:42 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: How would you handle this situation? [RE-wrenches]


Joel,

One comment.  Here on this site, I would prefer that you mention what
equipment.  Its how I keep up as to whats hot and whats not.

thanks,

jay

peltz power

Joel Davidson wrote:

> One year ago, a customer bought 2 line-tie inverters. The customer is a
> knowledgeable engineer and was unhappy with the inverters' performance
> so he got a different brand inverter to compare performance. The other
> brand performs much better. The customer and I are convinced that the 2
> inverters he bought have design flaws and can not perform to spec. The
> customer wants to return the inverters for a full refund. How would you
> handle this situation?
>
Matt Lafferty wrote:

> Joel / Wrenches:
>
> First of all, Joel, you are on the right track in providing "after the
sale"
> service.  This mirrors the last 1-1/2 + years we have spent dealing with a
> similar issue.  We aren't done with it yet.  May go on for a very long
time,
> in fact.  Be glad you only have the one Customer.  We have about 50, not
to
> mention the ones we own.
>
> I personally believe in maintaining integrity in backing up our projects,
> even when the issue isn't related to something we "did wrong".  The
goodwill
> generated is priceless, even when the Customers are screaming with venom!
>
> As far as returning the inverters, I believe the manufacturer should pick
up
> the tab &, as you suggest, do the testing.  A full credit to the
> distributors is in order if the testing proves the inverters cannot
perform
> as advertised.
>
> Regarding "peak power":  This is the tree manufacturers hide behind.  Some
> just hide behind it more than others.  We all know that PV generates in
> "real time" according to all the variables existing at that time.  In a
lab,
> at STC or other favorable conditions, the inverter may produce the 2500
> Watts as advertised.  There has to be a "Standard Test Condition" for
rating
> purposes or else there would be no way to benchmark performance and
ratings.
> If, under their tests, the results honestly show the inverter delivers and
> won't honor the refund request, then you have another thing to think
about.
> How to satisfy your customer, without bankrupting yourself, if he can be
> satisfied at this point.
>
> The best I can offer at this moment is this:  Consider this experience in
> its entirety in the future.  What inverter are you going to select or,
just
> as importantly, NOT select for this type of application in the future?
(Of
> course we are all dying to know!!! ;-) )  And, Don't Quit on Commitment to
> Integrity!
>
> -Matt Lafferty
> pvpro at attbi.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joel Davidson"
> Subject: Re: How would you handle this situation? [RE-wrenches]
>
> > 1) The customer chose the inverters and I agreed with his choice.
> > 2) The customer bought the 2nd inverter to expand his PV system. I
bought
> the
> > 2nd inverter from another distributor because the 1st distributor could
> not give
> > a delivery date and the 2nd distributor had an inverter in stock.
> > 3) Yesterday, both distributors contacted the manufacturer and we await
a
> > response.
> >
> > Back to the original question, but this time put yourself in this
> customer's
> > place.
> >
> > You buy an inverter that is specified to deliver 2500 watts. The
inverter
> never
> > delivers over 2300 watts of power and has other problems that adversely
> affect
> > energy production. You visit another site with the same inverter and see
> the
> > same under-performance and hear about the same other problems. You
> substitute
> > another brand 2500 watt inverter and the 2nd inverter delivers 2500
watts.
> You
> > re-test the 1st inverter with 32 each 120 watt PV modules, but it still
> does not
> > deliver over 2300 watts. You conclude that the inverter can not perform
as
> > specified. The inverter is under warranty so you call the manufacturer.
> "They
> > said they changed the spec and hadn't even publish or put it online
> yet...when I
> > mentioned that my unit would never run over 2300 watts (this is when I
> purposely
> > feed 32 panels into it to prove the unit wasn't running at spec) they
> claimed
> > 2500 was "peak" power what ever that means" (customer's exact words).
> >
> > If I were the manufacturer, this is how I would resolve this situation.
> Send the
> > customer return shipping cartons, pay for the shipping and test the
> inverters.
> > If the inverters produce 2500 watts, return the inverters to the
customer
> with
> > the test results. Charge the expense for 2-way shipping and testing to
> customer
> > service. If the inverters do not produce 2500 watts, first credit the
> > distributors who will credit the retailer so the retailer can refund the
> > customer's money. Next, change the inverter specifications.
> >
> > What do you all think?

- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com

Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/

List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm

Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html

Hosted by Home Power magazine

Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com

==^================================================================
This email was sent to: michael.welch at homepower.com

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8Qcs.bz9JC9
Or send an email to: RE-wrenches-unsubscribe at topica.com

T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^================================================================