third Party Installations [RE-wrenches]

Tue Nov 6 11:56:37 PST 2001

I agree with Drake and Joel, but to a limited extent,

As Joel said - you can't manage the competitiion, but you can manage your own
business. When I set up in business, I took everything that came my way - now I can
choose the customers to an extent. One of the biggest reasons for this is because
of education. How can you expect customers to know about energy efficiency &
conservation if you don't teach and educate them.  You must, I say must, promote
these concepts until blue in the face. In the end your customers will respect you
for it, if they don't listen, its their own fault.

The skeptics will point out that there will always be people that buy cheap from
mail order, and never give a thought about energy efficiency - wind up with a
totally unsatisfactory system - and say solar don't work. True.  But then its their
own fault for not finding out the right information before diving in - and the
information is readily available. Give a bad name for solar - I don't think so -
when was the last time you saw progress on the "Million Rooftops" campaign?  It
speaks for itself - for every one of those "solar dont work' crap stories we could
all point to numerous good installs that have been planned out and successful.
Don't you think its time we shed that trite old self-defeating image, we all know
solar works when properly implemented, lets get on with the job.

Why worry about the 10% of customers looking for a bargain, do you really want them
for customers anyway. The fact that they are considering it is good enough -
hopefully they will get caught up in the education system somewhere - will find out
about energy efficiency along the way and join the rest of us. If they don't its
their own fault for not doing their research or homework first.

Maybe some blame could be laid at the feet of 'cheapest.com' for not giving out
free information about e.e.& c. but then do you (we) make this available to them to
send out with queries?  Maybe the astute ones could include it as part of their
catalogues, it would certainly raise their profile. Possibly most of them would be
happy to do so, anyone ever tried to ask?  Instead of trying to fight them, why not
use them for the industry gain that we all could help along the way with some
mutual co-operation. Ever heard of the term co-ompetition (co-operating with your
competition) which works out to everyones benefit.

Two very good things done by Steve Wiley - 1)was in an article saying, "conserve
first, go green after" and 2)try to incorporate 'Dealers/Suppliers' into the loop.
If you can't beat them, join them. Actively encourage customers to buy through the
installers (who can get a discount from the dealer/supplier, whereas the customer
can't (or shouldn't )

Just my 2cents (minus inflation) worth,                John V

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy wrote:

> Hi Joel,
>
> Mr. Solar can often sell direct to the customer at about the same price as
> we pay.  It apparently takes a large volume purchaser to buy at really good
> prices.
>
> In my opinion, this is bad for the industry.  Many people do buy equipment
> at low cost and connect them to dwellings that have pretty standard
> electrical demands.  Therefore, systems go in that "prove," once again,
> that solar doesn't work.
>
> Yet for 20% more on their up front costs, they could have a system that
> would really do something.  Or, in other cases, they might find that they
> don't really need all the equipment they are buying (with the proper set
> up) and could spend the same amount.
>
> Drake
>
> At 07:54 AM 11/06/2001 -0800, you wrote:
> >The smart plumber tells his customer, "Sure, I can sell you the Home Depot
> >water
> >heater at the same price as Home Depot." Then he either buys the heater at
> >Home Depot
> >or buys it at a discount from another supplier or tells his customer why
> >he should
> >buy the brand heater that he sells. Plumbers, electricians, PV installers,
> >etc. are
> >competing with Home Depot and other parts suppliers. So learn how to
> >compete. Make
> >your equipment prices competitive. Learn price differentiation. Determine your
> >materials, labor and G&A prices that you need to meet your profit goals.
> >You can not
> >manage your competition, but you can take manage your own business and your
> >customers.
> >
> >
> >
> >jay peltz wrote:
> >
> > > HI Drake,
> > >
> > > Well said.  I keep coming back to our other trades, such as electrical or
> > > plumbing.
> > >
> > > How many plumbers will install a hot water heater, that you don't buy
> > from them,
> > > and how  many would warranty it?  yea right,
> > >
> > > How many electricans would  install the same, equipment bought elsewhere?
> > >
> > > Solar has gotten the rap as being something you can do yourself, and so
> > it is.
> > > But when you cross that line of oops I can't do it myself  that it gets
> > very
> > > complicated.  Much of this problem comes from web sellers.  As I used
> > to be one
> > > for AEE and then Applied power, the hardest part of my job was to
> > figure the
> > > design parameters.  The system was easy, but the hows and whys and not
> > being able
> > > to see and having to trust the customer, next to impossible.
> > >
> > > Our industry is no different.  We have good installers, and poor
> > ones.  Ones who
> > > understand design, others who only understand profit.  No way to make
> > it perfect,
> > > its just life.  But hay our time is now!!
> > >
> > > jay
> > >
> > > peltz power
> > >
> > > Drake Chamberlin - Electrical Energy wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Wrenches,
> > > >
> > > > Most of my RE work is with systems that are either off grid, or
> > designed to
> > > > supply specified loads in the event power outages.  To function
> > adequately,
> > > > these systems require careful planning.  Some of my concerns might not
> > > > apply to systems that are strictly gird intertie.
> > > >
> > > > I  am willing to install equipment purchased from other sources with
> > > > certain understandings.  One is that, in the event of equipment
> > failure, I
> > > > will be paid my regular rate to service the installation, unless the
> > > > problem is due to my error.
> > > >
> > > > A big issue is, that I must be paid for designing the system.  Without
> > > > commission, I can't afford to provide "free" deign work.   The bargain
> > > > hound may find that much of his savings are eaten up by having to pay for
> > > > design time.
> > > >
> > > > A lot of existing systems I've seen look fine.  A power panel hanging
> > on a
> > > > wall, and a nice looking solar array can look pretty impressive.  The
> > only
> > > > problem is that many of these systems don't accomplish much.  The
> > > > electrical loads and use patterns of the premise may squander the
> > > > relatively few watts available from the PV system.
> > > >
> > > > Yet, with a well thought out system, a dwelling really can run on solar
> > > > electricity.  It may require not using a forced air furnace, but
> > > > circulating DC pumped hot water from a gas boiler, that uses either a
> > pilot
> > > > light or an efficient AC control box, that is designed to shut off
> > when not
> > > > needed.  This may require working with a plumber who needs to be
> > > > educated.  This may lead to searches for appropriate boilers, hot water
> > > > tanks, pumps, tubing and other related equipment.  It may be necessary to
> > > > make certain, that elements of systems that we are not installing,
> > get set
> > > > up properly.
> > > >
> > > > A functional system may require phantom loads be eliminated by use of DC
> > > > powered answering machines, computers, cell phones, etc. Voltages may
> > need
> > > > to be adjusted by using battery bank equalizers or DC to DC voltage
> > > > converters.
> > > >
> > > > All proposed appliances need to be cleared for the system.  Certain loads
> > > > may need to be shed on low battery conditions.  Water pumping and
> > > > pressurizing strategies need to be evolved.  Wires need to be sized for
> > > > amperage and voltage drop.  Code compliant physical layouts need to be
> > > > developed, often with difficult space limitations.  Appropriate and
> > > > properly listed equipment needs to be specified and located for all
> > > > subsystems.  It is truly necessary to wholisticly design the entire
> > system,
> > > > loads as well as generation.
> > > >
> > > > Every job is different.  Making an off grid home truly function
> > involves a
> > > > lot more than hanging an inverter on a wall and wiring batteries &
> > modules
> > > > together.  Two systems may look a lot a like to the untrained eye,
> > but one
> > > > may serve 95% of the electrical needs of a premise and the other
> > 15%.  The
> > > > magic is in the subtle detail.  In this line of work, details really do
> > > > matter.
> > > >
> > > > I don't care too much how I get reimbursed for my time.  It is probably a
> > > > better deal for the customer to pay the higher price for the
> > equipment, and
> > > > get on-going support for the system, plus get the "free" design
> > work.  But
> > > > it is sometimes hard to get customers to understand that there is more to
> > > > this business than assembling a Lego set.  That can be the biggest
> > > > challenge in a project.  But careful design work is essential to
> > > > demonstrate the true potential of PV.   Few can afford to supply it
> > for free.
> > > >
> > > > Peace,
> > > >
> > > > Drake
> > > >
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