third Party Installations [RE-wrenches]

Joel Davidson joeldavidson at earthlink.net
Fri Nov 2 10:47:39 PST 2001


Here we go with this subject again.

Put yourself in the customer's place. You want your off-grid PV system installed
properly so you get a quotation from a local experienced installer. You want to
pay for his expertise, but his inverter and PV module prices are higher than the
same parts sold elsewhere. The installer says he will not install equipment that
you buy. You tell him "parts are parts" and are willing to waive all warranties
in writing, but the installer refuses to install parts that you buy elsewhere.

Again, put yourself in the customer's place. You want an on-grid system, did your
homework and shopped around for parts. You want to get a homeowner's permit, buy
the parts and subcontract the labor to install 24 solar modules, roof racks, an
ST2500 inverter, wire and conduit, a disconnect switch, a 15A breaker and
miscellaneous parts. The local experienced contractor refuses to give you a labor
only quotation saying that he is liable for every aspect of his work. You tell
him that you are willing to pay for his  "package" of experience, labor and
liability, but the contractor refuses unless he can sell you the parts too.

What do you do?
1. You say the hell with the hassle, do not install a PV system and tell people
about the installer who refused your business.
2. You install the PV system yourself, tell people how easy it was to install and
maybe start selling and installing systems yourself.
3. You hire an inexperienced person who installs the system and he begins selling
and installing systems.
4. You hire a licensed electrician who installs the system and refer people to
the electrician who begins selling and installing systems.

The contractor who refuses the work feels that he did the right thing. What else
does he do?
1. He turns away customers and creates bad will for his business.
2. He complains about poorly designed and unsafe systems installed by
inexperienced homeowners, about customers shopping him to death and about
mailorder companies whoring up the market.
3. He badmouths inexperienced installers.
4. He worries about competition because more contractors are getting into the PV
business.

There's got to be a better way :-)


"Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar" wrote:

> Hello Baran,
>
> We have had a few rounds about this very subject and many of it's
> derivations.  One derivation being "would we even install equipment sold by
> others?".  Many of us expressed no desire to do that.  Too many problems
> with design, liability after the install, and the one that really matters
> (to me anyway and I've been doing this for over 10 years), total job profit.
>  Just making wages installing other peoples sale is a great way to go out of
> business.  It's pretty hard to show up to $20K+ of equipment and customer
> who was told "a good installer can do it in one day".  Then be expected to
> show up and trouble shoot any equipment that fails for free.  If you had
> made the margin off the equipment then it's expected that you do that.
>
> It does seem like several of the mail order folks on this list stated that
> they made every effort to refer those people to local installers.  Yet, I
> have had several folks come visit my shop with catalogues from those very
> same mail order people whom they had talked to several times and had never
> mentioned that there was a local installer nearby, even after the customer
> requested local help.  Several of them claiming to be distributors only who
> promise not to sell to end users.  Clearly there is some issues regarding
> Wrenches vs. the Catalogues still and probably always will be.
>
> Historically, I have generally liked the Power Panel and I agree it does
> shave some drawbacks.  From memory most of the installers didn't like the PP
> at all as it next to impossible to install by yourself and the DC175/250 box
> is too small for anything but a very basic system.  I do really like the
> inverter bypass switch even for off grid use as they do allow you to run off
> the generator should you loose an inverter.  And don't forget it is a UL
> listed assembly that might pass inspection quicker than your field assembled
> components.
>
> With the arrival of the Outback stuff my use of the Power Panel may reduce.
> I have yet to use any since I heard of them though.  I plan to use their
> stuff on the next job I do but who knows when that will be.  Doing most
> commercial lighting these days and unless a solar job falls in my lap I'm
> not looking for any.  We currently have well over 1 million sq. ft of
> lighting to upgrade which equates to at least 4 months of work inside during
> the winter.
>
> Travis
>
> ----------
> >From: Baran Galocy <livewire at c-zone.net>
> >To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> >Subject: third Party Installations [RE-wrenches]
> >Date: Fri, Nov 2, 2001, 9:16 AM
> >
>
> >Wrenches,
> >
> >I am seeking feedback from installers and making a request of the companies
> >for whom I install pv systems.
> >
> >I am often sought out by pv sales outfits as an installer for a sale that
> >was made in my service area.   The systems most always uses a Trace Power
> >Panel as the core.  This practice of selling owner/builders power panels
> >seems to be ubiquitous.  I can only speculate that these devices have a nice
> >margin of profit for the sales rep. (duh!) and it is easier to spec. out a
> >power panel rather than an inverter, DC250, charge controller, etc.  The
> >problem is that the Trace Power Panel is not a one-size-fits-all solution.
> >I have had to remove devices from the steel backing for installation on a
> >job because the p.p. wouldn't fit.  The sales people are not following
> >through asking the right questions about location, and letting the customer
> >know just how ungainly these are.  They also limit my clients' choice
> >(whether or not my client knows it at the time of purchase) by coming
> >pre-installed with non-MPPT charge controllers, switching boxes that will
> >never be used off-the-grid, and various lengths of 4/0 wire and metal flex
> >that have little bearing on the real world.
> >
> >Fellow wrenches - what say you?  Do you prefer the power panels or
> >assembling the components yourself?  I, for one, prefer a choice.
> >
> >Sales reps - Your input, please.  I know that some of you sell to people who
> >don't  even know the panels go "blue side up", and the power panel saves a
> >multitude of sins.  On the other hand, my request would be for you to ask
> >the person for local input, especially if you feel that they will be looking
> >for help before this whole project is through.    You may sell the system,
> >but I am the person who gets to marry the system.  I'm wedded to all me
> >installations - when people have a problem, they call me.  I am always happy
> >to work time and material as a consultant / installer for any client of any
> >sales person.  No, I won't try to sell them something instead of you - I
> >could do that about once before getting black listed.  What I guess I am
> >asking is for the clients' needs to be placed ahead of commissions - all
> >things being equal.  When I am not included in the equipment choosing
> >process, I am generally forced to make chicken salad out of chicken poo -
> >the old square peg in the round hole complaint.  I also hate seeing a client
> >receive bits and pieces of wire, flex, etc. that they will never use, but
> >must still pay for.
> >
> >If this is an old or well-beaten subject, you need not respond.  I would
> >enjoy a consensus, however.
> >
> >Namaste - Baran Galocy DBA HelioElectric
> >
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> Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
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