PV as an investment [RE-wrenches]

Mon Sep 10 17:33:57 PDT 2001

I agree that bean-counters are hard to sell, but perhaps if we give them some
beans counting games to play they may give themselves and us some answers that
will crack the payback nut (or bean).

I live in L.A. and have 32 each SP70 modules at a 12 degree tilt feeding into
an SW4048 and am averaging 2900 kWh/year. See
http://www.solarsolar.com/solarkwh.html

"Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources" wrote:

> Joel,
>
> Do you really think that you'll get 1825 kWh/yr per kW installed? Seems
> pretty high, but you are in solar paradise. Up here, depending upon who's
> number you want to believe, we use numbers of 1000 to 1100 kWh/yr per
> installed kW. (lower number for battery systems)
>
> Other than that, the analysis looks good, but it's not an easy sell. People
> who look at investments that way tend to want to really understand the
> commodities. They would probably include a new inverter at some point in
> the 20 yr panel life. They would probably not look at the investment as
> being any where near as safe as a CD. The investment has no liquidity.
> Overall, tough selling method I'd say.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Monday, September 10, 2001 3:33 PM, Joel Davidson
> [SMTP:joeldavidson at earthlink.net] wrote:
> > Selling stuff, even good stuff, is not my idea of living the good life. I
> challenge
> > people to reduce their energy consumption by at least 50% without buying
> more stuff.
> > If everyone in the U.S. cuts their consumption at least 10%, I'll quit
> selling PV and
> > start enjoying heaven on earth. The bad news is, Americans are not going
> to consume
> > less and billions of people in developing countries aspire to consume
> like Americans.
> > So I guess I'll just have to keep selling PV until everyone becomes a net
> energy
> > producer or all of the planetary resources are used up.
> >
> > Back to PV as an investment. There has been a lot of good discussion
> about selling PV
> > and answering objections about payback and break-even. But no one has
> commented about
> > the math I used to come up with the return on investment. Are my numbers
> right?
> >
> > 1kW AC PV system
> > 5 sun hours per day
> > 1,825 kWh/year PV production
> > $0.12/kWh utility rate
> > $219 value of PV
> > $10,000 PV system cost before rebate
> > $5,500 PV system cost after California $4.50/W rebate
> > 3.9% return on PV system as an investment ($216/0.039 = $5500)
> > 35% income tax rate
> > 3.9% is equal to a 5.2% untaxed return on investment
> >
> > If interest rates and stock returns were not so low and there were no PV
> rebates, I
> > wouldn't even bother with this problem, but 5.2% is better than CDs and
> most stocks
> > lately.
> >
> >
> >
> > jay peltz wrote:
> >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > Heres my question.  Sure I give the customer many angles to make the
> system cost
> > > effective, but how many people run into problems when you suggest:
> > >
> > > "Well its cheaper to reduce than produce.  We need to get you a new
> refer, washer,
> > > lights etc etc.  "
> > >
> > > Then I show them the math, and its like major blank time.
> > >
> > > Just wondering what you all have run into.
> > >
> > > jay
> > >
> > > peltz power
> > >
> > > Smitty wrote:
> > >
> > > > Howdy all. Reading all these wonderful posts about the payback wall
> people
> > > > have built around themselves before contacting us, something occurred
> to me,
> > > > and that is this. I don't know how old all of you are, but I suspect
> most of
> > > > us are middle aged. After WW II, a lot of lads came home to a booming
> economy,
> > > > and badda bing, badda boom, the baby boom was on. Young couples in
> the
> > > > strongest economy on earth, out achieving the American dream for
> decades. He
> > > > is where we come in. A generation watching our parents getting
> houses, new and
> > > > better appliances of all kinds, cars with fins, and the marketing
> boob tube
> > > > teaching us new, bigger and better.
> > > >
> > > > Many of the customers we deal with nationwide are of this generation.
> Our
> > > > company roots are in solar thermal, but we to, still hear the "P"
> word and one
> > > > of my other dreaded words, "efficiency".
> > > >
> > > > Since some of these baby boomers are now yuppies, I find they look at
> things
> > > > they don't understand as an investment, as opposed to a Ford
> Expedition. ME
> > > > WANT. I'll spare you the whole spiel, but it is quite simple to
> explain the
> > > > economics of solar thermal vs a furnace or water heater in terms of
> an
> > > > investment. About this time the Mrs. pops up, "It will make our house
> look
> > > > ugly.". And so it goes. Sometimes the wall comes down (sometimes on
> my head).
> > > >
> > > > One last point. I find it is much easier to sell solar to our BB
> brethren,
> > > > after they have already made a luxury purchase, i.e. a remote hunting
> cabin,
> > > > RV or a cold swimming pool.
> > > >
> > > > Smitty
> > > >
> > > > "Bill Loesch, Saint Louis Solar" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > My compliments Jeff for the creative thinking. Anyone else have an
> > > > > effective reply to utility comparisons?
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill Loesch
> > > > >
> > > > > RE-wrenches said:
> > > > > >When asked either "what's the  payback", or "how does this compare
> to the
> > > > > utility co.", I simply
> > > > > >said  "It's the cheapest clean power you can buy."
> > > > >
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