From frenergy at psln.com Thu Jan 2 11:21:32 2025 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2025 08:21:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternate LVD shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61a59c1c-4725-468a-a38b-dc8c34bdd9a5@psln.com> I am trying to use the "low battery disconnect" in aux mode in a newly installed OB FM80 CC for Li battery low voltage protection. I can't use the 19 year old OB VFX inverters for obvious reasons. The plan is to run the 12 volt output from the aux output to a NC relay to open it at 50 VDC of the bank of SimpliPhi 3.8M batteries.  50 VDC is SimpliPhi's recommendation for LVD. The "output" of the relay would be connected to the VFX's  ON-OFF landings of that little green terminal block in the AC side of the inverter and just act as a simple switch for the inverter to turn it off to save the batteries.             I'm using one of my newer FM80's as a test run and have programmed the voltages in  Low Battery Disconnect mode and then put it in auto mode.  However, as the CC goes below the voltage set point, the AUX output does not turn on (time set for 5 seconds), as evidence in the CC's home screen and by checking for 12V at the AUX terminal block.             Any ideas of what I'm missing here to make this work? I know the other solution, thousands of $$ for new inverters which would be great but these folks have already invested quite a chuck on array replacement and charge controllers. Thanks for any experience with this. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com From tyronehouck at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 12:03:35 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2025 09:03:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternate LVD shutdown In-Reply-To: <61a59c1c-4725-468a-a38b-dc8c34bdd9a5@psln.com> References: <61a59c1c-4725-468a-a38b-dc8c34bdd9a5@psln.com> Message-ID: Forgive my ignorance but why won't the vfx lbco work for lithium? On Thu, Jan 2, 2025, 8:19 AM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I am trying to use the "low battery disconnect" in aux mode in a newly > installed OB FM80 CC for Li battery low voltage protection. I can't use > the 19 year old OB VFX inverters for obvious reasons. The plan is to run > the 12 volt output from the aux output to a NC relay to open it at 50 > VDC of the bank of SimpliPhi 3.8M batteries. 50 VDC is SimpliPhi's > recommendation for LVD. The "output" of the relay would be connected to > the VFX's ON-OFF landings of that little green terminal block in the AC > side of the inverter and just act as a simple switch for the inverter to > turn it off to save the batteries. > > I'm using one of my newer FM80's as a test run and have > programmed the voltages in Low Battery Disconnect mode and then put it > in auto mode. However, as the CC goes below the voltage set point, the > AUX output does not turn on (time set for 5 seconds), as evidence in the > CC's home screen and by checking for 12V at the AUX terminal block. > > Any ideas of what I'm missing here to make this work? I > know the other solution, thousands of $$ for new inverters which would > be great but these folks have already invested quite a chuck on array > replacement and charge controllers. > > Thanks for any experience with this. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd > . > (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 12:07:45 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2025 10:07:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternate LVD shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 20:53:04 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2025 20:53:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternate LVD shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bill, Are all your voltages calibrated? Mate, Flexmax, FM80? Where are you reading the voltages? Does it work OK manually? On Thu, Jan 2, 2025 at 12:08 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Simpliphy has a very high voltage LVD. > And the older OB can’t be programmed to those voltages > > > > On Jan 2, 2025, at 10:04 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Forgive my ignorance but why won't the vfx lbco work for lithium? > > > > > On Thu, Jan 2, 2025, 8:19 AM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I am trying to use the "low battery disconnect" in aux mode in a newly >> installed OB FM80 CC for Li battery low voltage protection. I can't use >> the 19 year old OB VFX inverters for obvious reasons. The plan is to run >> the 12 volt output from the aux output to a NC relay to open it at 50 >> VDC of the bank of SimpliPhi 3.8M batteries. 50 VDC is SimpliPhi's >> recommendation for LVD. The "output" of the relay would be connected to >> the VFX's ON-OFF landings of that little green terminal block in the AC >> side of the inverter and just act as a simple switch for the inverter to >> turn it off to save the batteries. >> >> I'm using one of my newer FM80's as a test run and have >> programmed the voltages in Low Battery Disconnect mode and then put it >> in auto mode. However, as the CC goes below the voltage set point, the >> AUX output does not turn on (time set for 5 seconds), as evidence in the >> CC's home screen and by checking for 12V at the AUX terminal block. >> >> Any ideas of what I'm missing here to make this work? I >> know the other solution, thousands of $$ for new inverters which would >> be great but these folks have already invested quite a chuck on array >> replacement and charge controllers. >> >> Thanks for any experience with this. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, owner >> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >> 5575 Genesee Rd >> . >> (USPS, UPS) >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >> Solar Powered since 1982 >> Home of the Sunny Side Up >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Thu Jan 2 21:13:49 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2025 18:13:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternate LVD shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK. Gotcha. I remember that now about simpliphi. Thanks for the clarification. On Thu, Jan 2, 2025, 9:08 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Simpliphy has a very high voltage LVD. > And the older OB can’t be programmed to those voltages > > > > On Jan 2, 2025, at 10:04 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Forgive my ignorance but why won't the vfx lbco work for lithium? > > > > > On Thu, Jan 2, 2025, 8:19 AM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I am trying to use the "low battery disconnect" in aux mode in a newly >> installed OB FM80 CC for Li battery low voltage protection. I can't use >> the 19 year old OB VFX inverters for obvious reasons. The plan is to run >> the 12 volt output from the aux output to a NC relay to open it at 50 >> VDC of the bank of SimpliPhi 3.8M batteries. 50 VDC is SimpliPhi's >> recommendation for LVD. The "output" of the relay would be connected to >> the VFX's ON-OFF landings of that little green terminal block in the AC >> side of the inverter and just act as a simple switch for the inverter to >> turn it off to save the batteries. >> >> I'm using one of my newer FM80's as a test run and have >> programmed the voltages in Low Battery Disconnect mode and then put it >> in auto mode. However, as the CC goes below the voltage set point, the >> AUX output does not turn on (time set for 5 seconds), as evidence in the >> CC's home screen and by checking for 12V at the AUX terminal block. >> >> Any ideas of what I'm missing here to make this work? I >> know the other solution, thousands of $$ for new inverters which would >> be great but these folks have already invested quite a chuck on array >> replacement and charge controllers. >> >> Thanks for any experience with this. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, owner >> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >> 5575 Genesee Rd >> . >> (USPS, UPS) >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >> Solar Powered since 1982 >> Home of the Sunny Side Up >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 09:15:48 2025 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2025 06:15:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Overvoltage Troubleshoot Message-ID: Hi all, I need some help with a generator overvoltage troubleshoot. I'm working on an outback offgrid system that consists of 2 x Radian GS8048a, 1 x MATE3S controller, 1 x FM 80 charge controller, 1 x 55kw single phase propane AC cummins generator, about 4kw of solar *not sufficient enough to keep up with the load, and 24 x 4v Rolls batteries series/paralleled to make 48v. The generator was rebuilt and the batteries replaced about a year ago and since then, the generator has been faulting due to overvoltage. I had help and first found that the MATE needed calibrating so that was done, but the generator still was faulting. I found changing the AC Input Charging from 30a to 20a seemed to work. I put a power monitor on the generator output and found that, with the AC Input Charging set at 30a, noticed that there was a voltage spike up to 300+V at about a 70a draw. The generator company put a load bank on and verified the generator may not be at fault and the problem is after the generator. Has anyone encountered a problem like this and have suggestions? I've attached a PDF with a timeline of what I've done for troubleshooting so far. -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PACIFIC VALLEY SCHOOL OF EVENTS - Sheet1.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 41974 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 09:33:43 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2025 09:33:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Overvoltage Troubleshoot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What AC input mode are you using? I'd recommend trying various modes to see if it will go away. I tend to use the support mode with the most success. On Fri, Jan 3, 2025, 9:17 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > I need some help with a generator overvoltage troubleshoot. I'm > working on an outback offgrid system that consists of 2 x Radian GS8048a, 1 > x MATE3S controller, 1 x FM 80 charge controller, 1 x 55kw single phase > propane AC cummins generator, about 4kw of solar *not sufficient enough to > keep up with the load, and 24 x 4v Rolls batteries series/paralleled to > make 48v. The generator was rebuilt and the batteries replaced about a > year ago and since then, the generator has been faulting due to > overvoltage. I had help and first found that the MATE needed calibrating > so that was done, but the generator still was faulting. I found changing > the AC Input Charging from 30a to 20a seemed to work. I put a power > monitor on the generator output and found that, with the AC Input Charging > set at 30a, noticed that there was a voltage spike up to 300+V at about a > 70a draw. The generator company put a load bank on and verified the > generator may not be at fault and the problem is after the generator. Has > anyone encountered a problem like this and have suggestions? I've attached > a PDF with a timeline of what I've done for troubleshooting so far. > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 09:52:54 2025 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2025 06:52:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Overvoltage Troubleshoot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for that input, right now it's in Generator. I was advised to try BACKUP, but the generator was running funny when I put it on that mode. I will try that SUPPORT mode and see what happens. On Fri, Jan 3, 2025 at 6:34 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > What AC input mode are you using? I'd recommend trying various modes to > see if it will go away. I tend to use the support mode with the most > success. > > On Fri, Jan 3, 2025, 9:17 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I need some help with a generator overvoltage troubleshoot. I'm >> working on an outback offgrid system that consists of 2 x Radian GS8048a, 1 >> x MATE3S controller, 1 x FM 80 charge controller, 1 x 55kw single phase >> propane AC cummins generator, about 4kw of solar *not sufficient enough to >> keep up with the load, and 24 x 4v Rolls batteries series/paralleled to >> make 48v. The generator was rebuilt and the batteries replaced about a >> year ago and since then, the generator has been faulting due to >> overvoltage. I had help and first found that the MATE needed calibrating >> so that was done, but the generator still was faulting. I found changing >> the AC Input Charging from 30a to 20a seemed to work. I put a power >> monitor on the generator output and found that, with the AC Input Charging >> set at 30a, noticed that there was a voltage spike up to 300+V at about a >> 70a draw. The generator company put a load bank on and verified the >> generator may not be at fault and the problem is after the generator. Has >> anyone encountered a problem like this and have suggestions? I've attached >> a PDF with a timeline of what I've done for troubleshooting so far. >> >> -- >> Jim with Gowdy Electric >> Cambria, Ca 93428 >> business 805 927 2630 >> cell 805 975 5279 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 10:02:50 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2025 08:02:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Overvoltage Troubleshoot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <475CDA8B-1990-4556-BAF3-7BB0F07BC1F8@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 10:06:49 2025 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2025 07:06:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Overvoltage Troubleshoot In-Reply-To: <475CDA8B-1990-4556-BAF3-7BB0F07BC1F8@gmail.com> References: <475CDA8B-1990-4556-BAF3-7BB0F07BC1F8@gmail.com> Message-ID: That's a great idea and I will try that. I have thought that a 240v resistive load may not be the best test On Fri, Jan 3, 2025 at 7:03 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The normal generator test uses resistive loads which are easy for the > voltage regulator. > > I’ve had success with problem generators by adding watts of resistive > loads, space heaters. > Worth a test. > Because this generator is so large, might take 5k or more of heaters. > > Jay > > On Jan 3, 2025, at 7:53 AM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Thanks for that input, right now it's in Generator. I was advised to try > BACKUP, but the generator was running funny when I put it on that mode. I > will try that SUPPORT mode and see what happens. > > On Fri, Jan 3, 2025 at 6:34 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> What AC input mode are you using? I'd recommend trying various modes to >> see if it will go away. I tend to use the support mode with the most >> success. >> >> On Fri, Jan 3, 2025, 9:17 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> I need some help with a generator overvoltage troubleshoot. I'm >>> working on an outback offgrid system that consists of 2 x Radian GS8048a, 1 >>> x MATE3S controller, 1 x FM 80 charge controller, 1 x 55kw single phase >>> propane AC cummins generator, about 4kw of solar *not sufficient enough to >>> keep up with the load, and 24 x 4v Rolls batteries series/paralleled to >>> make 48v. The generator was rebuilt and the batteries replaced about a >>> year ago and since then, the generator has been faulting due to >>> overvoltage. I had help and first found that the MATE needed calibrating >>> so that was done, but the generator still was faulting. I found changing >>> the AC Input Charging from 30a to 20a seemed to work. I put a power >>> monitor on the generator output and found that, with the AC Input Charging >>> set at 30a, noticed that there was a voltage spike up to 300+V at about a >>> 70a draw. The generator company put a load bank on and verified the >>> generator may not be at fault and the problem is after the generator. Has >>> anyone encountered a problem like this and have suggestions? I've attached >>> a PDF with a timeline of what I've done for troubleshooting so far. >>> >>> -- >>> Jim with Gowdy Electric >>> Cambria, Ca 93428 >>> business 805 927 2630 >>> cell 805 975 5279 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 15:01:23 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2025 12:01:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Overvoltage Troubleshoot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I work with gen set and inverter integration all the time, unless you have an inverter beginning to fail, it has to be the gen set, when l run load banks it for 2, 4 hr. or even longer and the voltage may only be checked at intervals and not continues. Use a fluke or other high quality meter set to min max and test all the integration, now the inverter may be pushing back spikes. You should also be able to tune in voltage at the gen set regulator, it can set volts and freq. Fun times On Fri, Jan 3, 2025, 6:17 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > I need some help with a generator overvoltage troubleshoot. I'm > working on an outback offgrid system that consists of 2 x Radian GS8048a, 1 > x MATE3S controller, 1 x FM 80 charge controller, 1 x 55kw single phase > propane AC cummins generator, about 4kw of solar *not sufficient enough to > keep up with the load, and 24 x 4v Rolls batteries series/paralleled to > make 48v. The generator was rebuilt and the batteries replaced about a > year ago and since then, the generator has been faulting due to > overvoltage. I had help and first found that the MATE needed calibrating > so that was done, but the generator still was faulting. I found changing > the AC Input Charging from 30a to 20a seemed to work. I put a power > monitor on the generator output and found that, with the AC Input Charging > set at 30a, noticed that there was a voltage spike up to 300+V at about a > 70a draw. The generator company put a load bank on and verified the > generator may not be at fault and the problem is after the generator. Has > anyone encountered a problem like this and have suggestions? I've attached > a PDF with a timeline of what I've done for troubleshooting so far. > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump3391 at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 15:21:44 2025 From: tump3391 at gmail.com (Blair May) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2025 15:21:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Overvoltage Troubleshoot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96669FE7-630C-459F-8FDF-037B59325CB4@gmail.com> What IS the AC output prior to connecting to the Inverters? Hzs? Is the generator an older unit w/ mechanical speed controls? 55kW gen set should have no problem that load and the OV will usually occur during the disconnection phase not once loaded. On a generator, the "Gain" setting controls the sensitivity of the voltage regulator, essentially determining how quickly the generator responds to changes in load by adjusting the excitation current to maintain a stable output voltage; a higher gain means a faster response to load fluctuations, while a lower gain results in a slower response, potentially leading to larger voltage swings under changing load conditions. TUMP > On Jan 3, 2025, at 3:01 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I work with gen set and inverter integration all the time, unless you have an inverter beginning to fail, it has to be the gen set, when l run load banks it for 2, 4 hr. or even longer and the voltage may only be checked at intervals and not continues. Use a fluke or other high quality meter set to min max and test all the integration, now the inverter may be pushing back spikes. You should also be able to tune in voltage at the gen set regulator, it can set volts and freq. > Fun times > > > On Fri, Jan 3, 2025, 6:17 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Hi all, > I need some help with a generator overvoltage troubleshoot. I'm working on an outback offgrid system that consists of 2 x Radian GS8048a, 1 x MATE3S controller, 1 x FM 80 charge controller, 1 x 55kw single phase propane AC cummins generator, about 4kw of solar *not sufficient enough to keep up with the load, and 24 x 4v Rolls batteries series/paralleled to make 48v. The generator was rebuilt and the batteries replaced about a year ago and since then, the generator has been faulting due to overvoltage. I had help and first found that the MATE needed calibrating so that was done, but the generator still was faulting. I found changing the AC Input Charging from 30a to 20a seemed to work. I put a power monitor on the generator output and found that, with the AC Input Charging set at 30a, noticed that there was a voltage spike up to 300+V at about a 70a draw. The generator company put a load bank on and verified the generator may not be at fault and the problem is after the generator. Has anyone encountered a problem like this and have suggestions? I've attached a PDF with a timeline of what I've done for troubleshooting so far. > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > "We must all learn to live together as brothers, or we all will perish as fools." MLK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Fri Jan 3 15:28:31 2025 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2025 20:28:31 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Re: Generator Overvoltage Troubleshoot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you have Fluke meter with Fluke Connect (has FC in the model number like 393FC), you can use the Fluke Connect app to data log for a period of time. How much time varies depending on the tool and test. Thanks, Will ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 3, 2025 3:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jerry Shafer Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator Overvoltage Troubleshoot CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. I work with gen set and inverter integration all the time, unless you have an inverter beginning to fail, it has to be the gen set, when l run load banks it for 2, 4 hr. or even longer and the voltage may only be checked at intervals and not continues. Use a fluke or other high quality meter set to min max and test all the integration, now the inverter may be pushing back spikes. You should also be able to tune in voltage at the gen set regulator, it can set volts and freq. Fun times On Fri, Jan 3, 2025, 6:17 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi all, I need some help with a generator overvoltage troubleshoot. I'm working on an outback offgrid system that consists of 2 x Radian GS8048a, 1 x MATE3S controller, 1 x FM 80 charge controller, 1 x 55kw single phase propane AC cummins generator, about 4kw of solar *not sufficient enough to keep up with the load, and 24 x 4v Rolls batteries series/paralleled to make 48v. The generator was rebuilt and the batteries replaced about a year ago and since then, the generator has been faulting due to overvoltage. I had help and first found that the MATE needed calibrating so that was done, but the generator still was faulting. I found changing the AC Input Charging from 30a to 20a seemed to work. I put a power monitor on the generator output and found that, with the AC Input Charging set at 30a, noticed that there was a voltage spike up to 300+V at about a 70a draw. The generator company put a load bank on and verified the generator may not be at fault and the problem is after the generator. Has anyone encountered a problem like this and have suggestions? I've attached a PDF with a timeline of what I've done for troubleshooting so far. -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Jan 3 15:34:06 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2025 13:34:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Overvoltage Troubleshoot In-Reply-To: <96669FE7-630C-459F-8FDF-037B59325CB4@gmail.com> References: <96669FE7-630C-459F-8FDF-037B59325CB4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <28ccd458-fb93-482f-a253-41baf303e28a@solarray.com> Reading that the problem started AFTER the gen set was rebuilt, seems to point to adjusting generator voltage and frequency set points, or a faulty voltage regulator.  My guess is something went wrong with the rebuild.  Unless it was factory rebuilt, I've found local generator service companies to be overall fair to bad.  All the knowledgeable old timers are retiring, replaced with younger folks that mostly are there to just collect a paycheck.  My experience with gen sets that start having trouble, is they have to be replaced.  I just haven't seen them ever be reliable again, once they start needing work. As soon as the gen set service company hears "Solar", they pin the blame on us, and to be fair, Inverter battery charging is a tricky load. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 1/3/2025 1:21 PM, Blair May via RE-wrenches wrote: > What IS the AC output prior to connecting to the Inverters? Hzs? Is > the generator an older unit w/ mechanical speed controls? 55kW gen set > should have no problem that load and the OV will usually occur during > the disconnection phase not once loaded. On a generator, the "Gain" > setting controls the sensitivity of the voltage regulator, essentially > determining how quickly the generator responds to changes in load by > adjusting the excitation current to maintain a stable output voltage; > a higher gain means a faster response to load fluctuations, while a > lower gain results in a slower response, potentially leading to larger > voltage swings under changing load conditions. TUMP > >> On Jan 3, 2025, at 3:01 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> I work with gen set and inverter integration all the time, unless you >> have an inverter beginning to fail, it has to be the gen set, when l >> run load banks it for 2, 4 hr. or even longer and the voltage may >> only be checked at intervals and not continues. Use a fluke or other >> high quality meter set to min max and test all the integration, now >> the inverter may be pushing back spikes. You should also be able to >> tune in voltage at the gen set regulator, it can set volts and freq. >> Fun times >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 3, 2025, 6:17 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >>      I need some help with a generator overvoltage troubleshoot.  >> I'm working on an outback offgrid system that consists of 2 x >> Radian GS8048a, 1 x MATE3S controller, 1 x FM 80 charge >> controller, 1 x 55kw single phase propane AC cummins generator, >> about 4kw of solar *not sufficient enough to keep up with the >> load, and 24 x 4v Rolls batteries series/paralleled to make 48v.  >> The generator was rebuilt and the batteries replaced about a year >> ago and since then, the generator has been faulting due to >> overvoltage.  I had help and first found that the MATE needed >> calibrating so that was done, but the generator still was >> faulting. I found changing the AC Input Charging from 30a to 20a >> seemed to work.  I put a power monitor on the generator output >> and found that, with the AC Input Charging set at 30a, noticed >> that there was a voltage spike up to 300+V at about a 70a draw.  >> The generator company put a load bank on and verified the >> generator may not be at fault and the problem is after the >> generator.  Has anyone encountered a problem like this and have >> suggestions?  I've attached a PDF with a timeline of what I've >> done for troubleshooting so far. >> >> -- >> Jim with Gowdy Electric >> Cambria, Ca 93428 >> business  805 927 2630 >> cell  805 975 5279 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > > > > "We must all learn to live together as brothers, >  or we all will perish as fools." > MLK > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 3 15:51:23 2025 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2025 14:51:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Overvoltage Troubleshoot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is my two cents I had a similar over voltage. It was caused by the generator. It helped to put a load on the generator, I put on a 500 watt resistance load, it helped but in the end the generator was replaced. Good luck. On Fri, Jan 3, 2025, 8:17 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > I need some help with a generator overvoltage troubleshoot. I'm > working on an outback offgrid system that consists of 2 x Radian GS8048a, 1 > x MATE3S controller, 1 x FM 80 charge controller, 1 x 55kw single phase > propane AC cummins generator, about 4kw of solar *not sufficient enough to > keep up with the load, and 24 x 4v Rolls batteries series/paralleled to > make 48v. The generator was rebuilt and the batteries replaced about a > year ago and since then, the generator has been faulting due to > overvoltage. I had help and first found that the MATE needed calibrating > so that was done, but the generator still was faulting. I found changing > the AC Input Charging from 30a to 20a seemed to work. I put a power > monitor on the generator output and found that, with the AC Input Charging > set at 30a, noticed that there was a voltage spike up to 300+V at about a > 70a draw. The generator company put a load bank on and verified the > generator may not be at fault and the problem is after the generator. Has > anyone encountered a problem like this and have suggestions? I've attached > a PDF with a timeline of what I've done for troubleshooting so far. > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Jan 4 15:43:56 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2025 12:43:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Modules with short leads Message-ID: <966d5b5d138aea1d06fbaf9c9d3d5e33@mail.gmail.com> Colleagues: I have finally finished off the half carload of Mission Solar MSE SX5T panels I invested in a few years ago. I am now shopping for panels for my next projects. I am a bit of a stickler for proper PV wire management. I have spent years developing reliable wire management techniques . These practices require the leads emanate from the short side of the panels. This web site illustrates the difference between what I call “short-side” and “long-side” lead placement. Upon inquiring with my local Greentech I find they no longer stock panels with short-side leads. I looked further afield but it appears short-side lead panels are being phased out. Even worse, the long-side leads are becoming very short. See photo below of a common example. I am dedicated to industry education so I am doing some academic research on this issue. Here are my questions: 1. How do y’all that use these long-side, short-lead panels manage the wire connections? I assume most of your projects require some type of MLPE so you can’t just daisy chain the modules via their own leads. Could you provide a photo or two of this practice? 2. Do you have to make jumpers for each lead? Do you worry about reliability of these extra connections? 3. Have any of you found currently available modules that have short-side leads? 4. Do any of you use the wire management clips that some rail manufacturers provide? How far apart do you space these clips? Do they seem to hold the leads without them drooping? Could you provide photos of these clips in use, please? Thanks in advance for contributing to this study. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26183 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Jan 4 18:22:13 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2025 18:22:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Modules with short leads In-Reply-To: <966d5b5d138aea1d06fbaf9c9d3d5e33@mail.gmail.com> References: <966d5b5d138aea1d06fbaf9c9d3d5e33@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I haven't seen these short leads on a module yet. I would not buy these modules due to MLPE needs. They might be viable with Tesla's MCI RSD solution, but I can't see making up custom cables for each panel of even each row of a ground rack. These must be for a specific segment of the market. Thanks for posting so I can be aware before I buy any new modules. Looks like those are Jinko, which is distributed pretty widely here in Florida. I wonder if they have these short leads. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 3:52 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Colleagues: > > > > I have finally finished off the half carload of Mission Solar MSE SX5T > panels I invested in a few years ago. I am now shopping for panels for my > next projects. > > > > I am a bit of a stickler for proper PV wire management. I have spent > years developing reliable wire management techniques > . > These practices require the leads emanate from the short side of the > panels. This > > web site illustrates the difference between what I call “short-side” and > “long-side” lead placement. > > > > Upon inquiring with my local Greentech I find they no longer stock panels > with short-side leads. I looked further afield but it appears short-side > lead panels are being phased out. Even worse, the long-side leads are > becoming very short. See photo below of a common example. > > > > > > I am dedicated to industry education so I am doing some academic research > on this issue. Here are my questions: > > > > 1. How do y’all that use these long-side, short-lead panels manage the > wire connections? I assume most of your projects require some type of MLPE > so you can’t just daisy chain the modules via their own leads. Could you > provide a photo or two of this practice? > > 2. Do you have to make jumpers for each lead? Do you worry about > reliability of these extra connections? > > 3. Have any of you found currently available modules that have > short-side leads? > > 4. Do any of you use the wire management clips > that some rail > manufacturers provide? How far apart do you space these clips? Do they > seem to hold the leads without them drooping? Could you provide photos of > these clips in use, please? > > > > Thanks in advance for contributing to this study. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26183 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Jan 4 18:40:25 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2025 18:40:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Modules with short leads In-Reply-To: <966d5b5d138aea1d06fbaf9c9d3d5e33@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3b750ad0-f165-40af-a007-e49db6115203@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Jan 4 19:46:48 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2025 00:46:48 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Overvoltage Troubleshoot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’ve chimed in on this connection before I have an Onan 20 KW an analog unit - 25 years old and I had it completely rebuilt prior to moving to Idaho and then after a couple of years, the voltage got really unstable. I dealt with ASAP they got me a they got me a replacement new not ORM voltage regulator that has been absolutely perfect Here is their phone number these guys were super super helpful. (717) 274-9396 Dana Orzel C: 208.721.7003 E- dana at solarwork.com On Jan 3, 2025, at 1:52 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote:  Here is my two cents I had a similar over voltage. It was caused by the generator. It helped to put a load on the generator, I put on a 500 watt resistance load, it helped but in the end the generator was replaced. Good luck. On Fri, Jan 3, 2025, 8:17 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi all, I need some help with a generator overvoltage troubleshoot. I'm working on an outback offgrid system that consists of 2 x Radian GS8048a, 1 x MATE3S controller, 1 x FM 80 charge controller, 1 x 55kw single phase propane AC cummins generator, about 4kw of solar *not sufficient enough to keep up with the load, and 24 x 4v Rolls batteries series/paralleled to make 48v. The generator was rebuilt and the batteries replaced about a year ago and since then, the generator has been faulting due to overvoltage. I had help and first found that the MATE needed calibrating so that was done, but the generator still was faulting. I found changing the AC Input Charging from 30a to 20a seemed to work. I put a power monitor on the generator output and found that, with the AC Input Charging set at 30a, noticed that there was a voltage spike up to 300+V at about a 70a draw. The generator company put a load bank on and verified the generator may not be at fault and the problem is after the generator. Has anyone encountered a problem like this and have suggestions? I've attached a PDF with a timeline of what I've done for troubleshooting so far. -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Mon Jan 6 01:04:29 2025 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2025 22:04:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Overvoltage Troubleshoot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks all for your inputs. I will keep all these tips in mind and I'll give an update once I find out more. On Sat, Jan 4, 2025 at 4:47 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I’ve chimed in on this connection before I have an Onan 20 KW an analog > unit - 25 years old and I had it completely rebuilt prior to moving to > Idaho and then after a couple of years, the voltage got really unstable. I > dealt with ASAP they got me a they got me a replacement new not ORM voltage > regulator that has been absolutely perfect > Here is their phone number these guys were super super helpful. > > (717) 274-9396 > > Dana Orzel > C: 208.721.7003 > E- dana at solarwork.com > > On Jan 3, 2025, at 1:52 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Here is my two cents I had a similar over voltage. It was caused by the > generator. It helped to put a load on the generator, I put on a 500 watt > resistance load, it helped but in the end the generator was replaced. Good > luck. > > On Fri, Jan 3, 2025, 8:17 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I need some help with a generator overvoltage troubleshoot. I'm >> working on an outback offgrid system that consists of 2 x Radian GS8048a, 1 >> x MATE3S controller, 1 x FM 80 charge controller, 1 x 55kw single phase >> propane AC cummins generator, about 4kw of solar *not sufficient enough to >> keep up with the load, and 24 x 4v Rolls batteries series/paralleled to >> make 48v. The generator was rebuilt and the batteries replaced about a >> year ago and since then, the generator has been faulting due to >> overvoltage. I had help and first found that the MATE needed calibrating >> so that was done, but the generator still was faulting. I found changing >> the AC Input Charging from 30a to 20a seemed to work. I put a power >> monitor on the generator output and found that, with the AC Input Charging >> set at 30a, noticed that there was a voltage spike up to 300+V at about a >> 70a draw. The generator company put a load bank on and verified the >> generator may not be at fault and the problem is after the generator. Has >> anyone encountered a problem like this and have suggestions? I've attached >> a PDF with a timeline of what I've done for troubleshooting so far. >> >> -- >> Jim with Gowdy Electric >> Cambria, Ca 93428 >> business 805 927 2630 >> cell 805 975 5279 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Jan 7 00:52:49 2025 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2025 21:52:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternate LVD shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <076f7176-997a-4932-8215-16774dd23363@psln.com> Hey Mac,             I've tried to calibrate the voltage displayed on the Mate with the Fluke on the battery bus bars but it doesn't seem to take after the adjustment in "calibrate".  But The Flexmax 80 does calibrate perfectly to the actual battery voltage and its in the FM80 aux landing that I'm using for this go-around to shut down the inverter to save the batteries.             'Manually' meaning.....? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 1/2/2025 5:53 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Bill, > > Are all your voltages calibrated?  Mate, Flexmax, FM80? Where are you > reading the voltages? > > Does it work OK manually? > > > > On Thu, Jan 2, 2025 at 12:08 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Simpliphy has a very high voltage LVD. > And the older OB can’t be programmed to those voltages > > > >> On Jan 2, 2025, at 10:04 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> Forgive my ignorance but why won't the vfx lbco work for lithium? >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 2, 2025, 8:19 AM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> I am trying to use the "low battery disconnect" in aux mode >> in a newly >> installed OB FM80 CC for Li battery low voltage protection. I >> can't use >> the 19 year old OB VFX inverters for obvious reasons. The >> plan is to run >> the 12 volt output from the aux output to a NC relay to open >> it at 50 >> VDC of the bank of SimpliPhi 3.8M batteries.  50 VDC is >> SimpliPhi's >> recommendation for LVD. The "output" of the relay would be >> connected to >> the VFX's  ON-OFF landings of that little green terminal >> block in the AC >> side of the inverter and just act as a simple switch for the >> inverter to >> turn it off to save the batteries. >> >>              I'm using one of my newer FM80's as a test run >> and have >> programmed the voltages in  Low Battery Disconnect mode and >> then put it >> in auto mode.  However, as the CC goes below the voltage set >> point, the >> AUX output does not turn on (time set for 5 seconds), as >> evidence in the >> CC's home screen and by checking for 12V at the AUX terminal >> block. >> >>              Any ideas of what I'm missing here to make this >> work? I >> know the other solution, thousands of $$ for new inverters >> which would >> be great but these folks have already invested quite a chuck >> on array >> replacement and charge controllers. >> >> Thanks for any experience with this. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, owner >> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >> 5575 Genesee Rd >> . >> (USPS, UPS) >> Taylorsville, CA  95983 >> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >> Solar Powered since 1982 >> Home of the Sunny Side Up >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus >> software. >> www.avast.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 05:45:46 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2025 03:45:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternate LVD shutdown In-Reply-To: <076f7176-997a-4932-8215-16774dd23363@psln.com> References: <076f7176-997a-4932-8215-16774dd23363@psln.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill, Do you have a flexnet in the system? I assume that it wouldn't matter if the FM80 is calibrated but you will want the flexnet perfectly calibrated if you are using Lithium. It's a very annoying but worthwhile process. Don't drop the little nuts. Here is a paper on the procedure: https://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/fndc_field_cal_app_note.pdf The flexnet acts as a master voltage device so the system will default its voltage readings to the flexnet voltmeter. I'm not sure if the aux function of the FM80 uses the FM80's voltage or the flexnet voltage to drive the relay, but this could explain the issue. Good luck! On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:51 PM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey Mac, > > I've tried to calibrate the voltage displayed on the Mate with > the Fluke on the battery bus bars but it doesn't seem to take after the > adjustment in "calibrate". But The Flexmax 80 does calibrate perfectly to > the actual battery voltage and its in the FM80 aux landing that I'm using > for this go-around to shut down the inverter to save the batteries. > > 'Manually' meaning.....? > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > On 1/2/2025 5:53 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > Are all your voltages calibrated? Mate, Flexmax, FM80? Where are you > reading the voltages? > > Does it work OK manually? > > > > On Thu, Jan 2, 2025 at 12:08 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Simpliphy has a very high voltage LVD. >> And the older OB can’t be programmed to those voltages >> >> >> >> On Jan 2, 2025, at 10:04 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Forgive my ignorance but why won't the vfx lbco work for lithium? >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 2, 2025, 8:19 AM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I am trying to use the "low battery disconnect" in aux mode in a newly >>> installed OB FM80 CC for Li battery low voltage protection. I can't use >>> the 19 year old OB VFX inverters for obvious reasons. The plan is to run >>> the 12 volt output from the aux output to a NC relay to open it at 50 >>> VDC of the bank of SimpliPhi 3.8M batteries. 50 VDC is SimpliPhi's >>> recommendation for LVD. The "output" of the relay would be connected to >>> the VFX's ON-OFF landings of that little green terminal block in the AC >>> side of the inverter and just act as a simple switch for the inverter to >>> turn it off to save the batteries. >>> >>> I'm using one of my newer FM80's as a test run and have >>> programmed the voltages in Low Battery Disconnect mode and then put it >>> in auto mode. However, as the CC goes below the voltage set point, the >>> AUX output does not turn on (time set for 5 seconds), as evidence in the >>> CC's home screen and by checking for 12V at the AUX terminal block. >>> >>> Any ideas of what I'm missing here to make this work? I >>> know the other solution, thousands of $$ for new inverters which would >>> be great but these folks have already invested quite a chuck on array >>> replacement and charge controllers. >>> >>> Thanks for any experience with this. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >>> 5575 Genesee Rd >>> . >>> (USPS, UPS) >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >>> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >>> Solar Powered since 1982 >>> Home of the Sunny Side Up >>> >>> >>> -- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> www.avast.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > <#m_6800452579458519754_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 08:57:47 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2025 06:57:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternate LVD shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 09:20:53 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2025 07:20:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternate LVD shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay, Adding some nuance here, and I could be mistaken about all of the functions that get taken over by the FNDC voltage. When you calibrate the FNDC, it "shows" the voltage on the Mate as the FNDC voltage if there is an FNDC in the system. I also believe that it defaults to the FNDC voltage for some logic operations like AGS voltage starting etc. I am not certain that LBCO uses the inverter voltage or the FNDC voltage, probably the inverter voltage. I assume that all Mate operations default to FNDC voltage. I would also assume that the aux relay will rely on the charge controller voltmeter driving the relay. One way to detect calibration issues is looking at the device status pages on Optics. Each device will show a voltage and that will correspond to the device. If something looks very different, it may be worth calibrating. I have found most of the devices need calibrating at some point, charge controllers, inverters and the fndc. There are certainly voltmeters on each device, but I think some of the logic is affected by uncalibrated FNDC and I have found it very helpful to calibrate it carefully if I'm installing Lithium. Certainly, your SOC calculation needs a calibrated FNDC. On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 6:58 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Mac > > I’m > Going to disagree. The FNDC only provides its voltage it doesn’t populate > to the other devices. > You still have to set the inverter and CC separately, a poor design. > > Depends on which mate you’ve got where the fndc voltage is located. > > > One reason I don’t like the CC voltage for aux control is that it gets off > while higher charging due to VD. And with lithium which spend almost no > time at lower absorb amps, it could effect the actual end volts. > > > And for whatever reason I have definitely had CC accuracy wander over > time. IE the voltage calibration gets off for some reason. > > Depending on the exact lithium, might not be a problem, some have wider > upper limit than others. > Jay > > > > > > On Jan 7, 2025, at 3:47 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi Bill, > > Do you have a flexnet in the system? > > I assume that it wouldn't matter if the FM80 is calibrated but you will > want the flexnet perfectly calibrated if you are using Lithium. It's a > very annoying but worthwhile process. Don't drop the little nuts. > > Here is a paper on the procedure: > > > https://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/fndc_field_cal_app_note.pdf > > The flexnet acts as a master voltage device so the system will default its > voltage readings to the flexnet voltmeter. I'm not sure if the aux > function of the FM80 uses the FM80's voltage or the flexnet voltage to > drive the relay, but this could explain the issue. > > Good luck! > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:51 PM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hey Mac, >> >> I've tried to calibrate the voltage displayed on the Mate >> with the Fluke on the battery bus bars but it doesn't seem to take after >> the adjustment in "calibrate". But The Flexmax 80 does calibrate perfectly >> to the actual battery voltage and its in the FM80 aux landing that I'm >> using for this go-around to shut down the inverter to save the batteries. >> >> 'Manually' meaning.....? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, owner >> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >> Solar Powered since 1982 >> Home of the Sunny Side Up >> >> On 1/2/2025 5:53 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi Bill, >> >> Are all your voltages calibrated? Mate, Flexmax, FM80? Where are you >> reading the voltages? >> >> Does it work OK manually? >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 2, 2025 at 12:08 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Simpliphy has a very high voltage LVD. >>> And the older OB can’t be programmed to those voltages >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 2, 2025, at 10:04 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Forgive my ignorance but why won't the vfx lbco work for lithium? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 2, 2025, 8:19 AM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I am trying to use the "low battery disconnect" in aux mode in a newly >>>> installed OB FM80 CC for Li battery low voltage protection. I can't use >>>> the 19 year old OB VFX inverters for obvious reasons. The plan is to >>>> run >>>> the 12 volt output from the aux output to a NC relay to open it at 50 >>>> VDC of the bank of SimpliPhi 3.8M batteries. 50 VDC is SimpliPhi's >>>> recommendation for LVD. The "output" of the relay would be connected to >>>> the VFX's ON-OFF landings of that little green terminal block in the >>>> AC >>>> side of the inverter and just act as a simple switch for the inverter >>>> to >>>> turn it off to save the batteries. >>>> >>>> I'm using one of my newer FM80's as a test run and have >>>> programmed the voltages in Low Battery Disconnect mode and then put it >>>> in auto mode. However, as the CC goes below the voltage set point, the >>>> AUX output does not turn on (time set for 5 seconds), as evidence in >>>> the >>>> CC's home screen and by checking for 12V at the AUX terminal block. >>>> >>>> Any ideas of what I'm missing here to make this work? I >>>> know the other solution, thousands of $$ for new inverters which would >>>> be great but these folks have already invested quite a chuck on array >>>> replacement and charge controllers. >>>> >>>> Thanks for any experience with this. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> Feather River Solar Electric >>>> Bill Battagin, owner >>>> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >>>> 5575 Genesee Rd >>>> . >>>> (USPS, UPS) >>>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>>> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >>>> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >>>> Solar Powered since 1982 >>>> Home of the Sunny Side Up >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>> www.avast.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> Virus-free.www.avast.com >> >> <#m_-2127051755724770988_m_6800452579458519754_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 09:28:46 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2025 07:28:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternate LVD shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7F0203CC-658C-4E24-9065-C0E1B30F6CDD@gmail.com> Hi Mac, yeah its confusing. As far as I know, the fndc only controls the FNDC functions. its own internal AUX, and AGS % which you can control through the inverter relay or the FNDC relay. All the other AUX relay functions are controlled by the device the AUX is in. But I could be mistaken jay > On Jan 7, 2025, at 7:20 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > Adding some nuance here, and I could be mistaken about all of the functions that get taken over by the FNDC voltage. > > When you calibrate the FNDC, it "shows" the voltage on the Mate as the FNDC voltage if there is an FNDC in the system. I also believe that it defaults to the FNDC voltage for some logic operations like AGS voltage starting etc. I am not certain that LBCO uses the inverter voltage or the FNDC voltage, probably the inverter voltage. I assume that all Mate operations default to FNDC voltage. I would also assume that the aux relay will rely on the charge controller voltmeter driving the relay. > > One way to detect calibration issues is looking at the device status pages on Optics. Each device will show a voltage and that will correspond to the device. If something looks very different, it may be worth calibrating. I have found most of the devices need calibrating at some point, charge controllers, inverters and the fndc. > > There are certainly voltmeters on each device, but I think some of the logic is affected by uncalibrated FNDC and I have found it very helpful to calibrate it carefully if I'm installing Lithium. Certainly, your SOC calculation needs a calibrated FNDC. > > > > On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 6:58 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Hi Mac >> >> I’m >> Going to disagree. The FNDC only provides its voltage it doesn’t populate to the other devices. >> You still have to set the inverter and CC separately, a poor design. >> >> Depends on which mate you’ve got where the fndc voltage is located. >> >> >> One reason I don’t like the CC voltage for aux control is that it gets off while higher charging due to VD. And with lithium which spend almost no time at lower absorb amps, it could effect the actual end volts. >> >> >> And for whatever reason I have definitely had CC accuracy wander over time. IE the voltage calibration gets off for some reason. >> >> Depending on the exact lithium, might not be a problem, some have wider upper limit than others. >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jan 7, 2025, at 3:47 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Hi Bill, >>> >>> Do you have a flexnet in the system? >>> >>> I assume that it wouldn't matter if the FM80 is calibrated but you will want the flexnet perfectly calibrated if you are using Lithium. It's a very annoying but worthwhile process. Don't drop the little nuts. >>> >>> Here is a paper on the procedure: >>> >>> https://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/fndc_field_cal_app_note.pdf >>> >>> The flexnet acts as a master voltage device so the system will default its voltage readings to the flexnet voltmeter. I'm not sure if the aux function of the FM80 uses the FM80's voltage or the flexnet voltage to drive the relay, but this could explain the issue. >>> >>> Good luck! >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:51 PM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> Hey Mac, >>>> >>>> I've tried to calibrate the voltage displayed on the Mate with the Fluke on the battery bus bars but it doesn't seem to take after the adjustment in "calibrate". But The Flexmax 80 does calibrate perfectly to the actual battery voltage and its in the FM80 aux landing that I'm using for this go-around to shut down the inverter to save the batteries. >>>> >>>> 'Manually' meaning.....? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> Feather River Solar Electric >>>> Bill Battagin, owner >>>> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >>>> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >>>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>>> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >>>> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >>>> Solar Powered since 1982 >>>> Home of the Sunny Side Up >>>> On 1/2/2025 5:53 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> Hi Bill, >>>>> >>>>> Are all your voltages calibrated? Mate, Flexmax, FM80? Where are you reading the voltages? >>>>> >>>>> Does it work OK manually? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 2, 2025 at 12:08 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> Simpliphy has a very high voltage LVD. >>>>>> And the older OB can’t be programmed to those voltages >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 2, 2025, at 10:04 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  >>>>>>> Forgive my ignorance but why won't the vfx lbco work for lithium? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 2, 2025, 8:19 AM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>> I am trying to use the "low battery disconnect" in aux mode in a newly >>>>>>>> installed OB FM80 CC for Li battery low voltage protection. I can't use >>>>>>>> the 19 year old OB VFX inverters for obvious reasons. The plan is to run >>>>>>>> the 12 volt output from the aux output to a NC relay to open it at 50 >>>>>>>> VDC of the bank of SimpliPhi 3.8M batteries. 50 VDC is SimpliPhi's >>>>>>>> recommendation for LVD. The "output" of the relay would be connected to >>>>>>>> the VFX's ON-OFF landings of that little green terminal block in the AC >>>>>>>> side of the inverter and just act as a simple switch for the inverter to >>>>>>>> turn it off to save the batteries. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm using one of my newer FM80's as a test run and have >>>>>>>> programmed the voltages in Low Battery Disconnect mode and then put it >>>>>>>> in auto mode. However, as the CC goes below the voltage set point, the >>>>>>>> AUX output does not turn on (time set for 5 seconds), as evidence in the >>>>>>>> CC's home screen and by checking for 12V at the AUX terminal block. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Any ideas of what I'm missing here to make this work? I >>>>>>>> know the other solution, thousands of $$ for new inverters which would >>>>>>>> be great but these folks have already invested quite a chuck on array >>>>>>>> replacement and charge controllers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for any experience with this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bill >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Feather River Solar Electric >>>>>>>> Bill Battagin, owner >>>>>>>> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >>>>>>>> 5575 Genesee Rd . (USPS, UPS) >>>>>>>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>>>>>>> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >>>>>>>> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >>>>>>>> Solar Powered since 1982 >>>>>>>> Home of the Sunny Side Up >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>>>>>> www.avast.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mac Lewis >>>>> >>>>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> Virus-free.www.avast.com _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Jan 7 18:28:39 2025 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2025 15:28:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternate LVD shutdown In-Reply-To: <7F0203CC-658C-4E24-9065-C0E1B30F6CDD@gmail.com> References: <7F0203CC-658C-4E24-9065-C0E1B30F6CDD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Looks like a lot of unknowns.  Another head-spinning idea.....One method to my wanting to use the FM80 might be to set a LBCO voltage too high just to simulate a shutdown, have a fluke on the battery bus and another on the aux output, load the battery to drop battery voltage.  When to aux activates read the battery voltage at the bus and the FM80 voltage at the display Fluke using minimum-volt recording, if there is a difference I would use that difference to set the aux LBCO. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 1/7/2025 6:28 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Mac, > > yeah its confusing. > > As far as I know, the fndc only controls the FNDC functions.  its own > internal AUX, and AGS % which you can control through the inverter > relay or the FNDC relay. > > All the other AUX relay functions are controlled by the device the AUX > is in. > > But I could be mistaken > > jay > > > > >> On Jan 7, 2025, at 7:20 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hi Jay, >> >> Adding some nuance here, and I could be mistaken about all >> of the functions that get taken over by the FNDC voltage. >> >> When you calibrate the FNDC, it "shows" the voltage on the Mate as >> the FNDC voltage if there is an FNDC in the system.   I also believe >> that it defaults to the FNDC voltage for some logic operations like >> AGS voltage starting etc.  I am not certain that LBCO uses the >> inverter voltage or the FNDC voltage, probably the inverter voltage.  >> I assume that all Mate operations default to FNDC voltage.  I would >> also assume that the aux relay will rely on the charge controller >> voltmeter driving the relay. >> >> One way to detect calibration issues is looking at the device status >> pages on Optics.  Each device will show a voltage and that will >> correspond to the device.  If something looks very different, it may >> be worth calibrating.  I have found most of the devices need >> calibrating at some point, charge controllers, inverters and the fndc. >> >> There are certainly voltmeters on each device, but I think some of >> the logic is affected by uncalibrated FNDC and I have found it very >> helpful to calibrate it carefully if I'm installing Lithium.  >> Certainly, your SOC calculation needs a calibrated FNDC. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 6:58 AM Jay via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hi Mac >> >> I’m >> Going to disagree. The FNDC only provides its voltage it doesn’t >> populate to the other devices. >> You still have to set the inverter and CC separately, a poor design. >> >> Depends on which mate you’ve got where the fndc voltage is located. >> >> >> One reason I don’t like the CC voltage for aux control is that it >> gets off while higher charging due to VD. And with lithium which >> spend almost no time at lower absorb amps, it could effect the >> actual end volts. >> >> >> And for whatever reason I have definitely had CC accuracy wander >> over time. IE the voltage calibration gets off for some reason. >> >> Depending on the exact lithium, might not be a problem, some have >> wider upper limit than others. >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jan 7, 2025, at 3:47 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Hi Bill, >>> >>> Do you have a flexnet in the system? >>> >>> I assume that it wouldn't matter if the FM80 is calibrated but >>> you will want the flexnet perfectly calibrated if you are using >>> Lithium.  It's a very annoying but worthwhile process.  Don't >>> drop the little nuts. >>> >>> Here is a paper on the procedure: >>> >>> https://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/fndc_field_cal_app_note.pdf >>> >>> The flexnet acts as a master voltage device so the system will >>> default its voltage readings to the flexnet voltmeter. I'm not >>> sure if the aux function of the FM80 uses the FM80's voltage or >>> the flexnet voltage to drive the relay, but this could explain >>> the issue. >>> >>> Good luck! >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:51 PM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hey Mac, >>> >>>             I've tried to calibrate the voltage displayed on >>> the Mate with the Fluke on the battery bus bars but it >>> doesn't seem to take after the adjustment in "calibrate".  >>> But The Flexmax 80 does calibrate perfectly to the actual >>> battery voltage and its in the FM80 aux landing that I'm >>> using for this go-around to shut down the inverter to save >>> the batteries. >>> >>>             'Manually' meaning.....? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >>> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >>> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >>> Solar Powered since 1982 >>> Home of the Sunny Side Up >>> >>> On 1/2/2025 5:53 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> Hi Bill, >>>> >>>> Are all your voltages calibrated?  Mate, Flexmax, FM80? >>>> Where are you reading the voltages? >>>> >>>> Does it work OK manually? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 2, 2025 at 12:08 PM Jay via RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Simpliphy has a very high voltage LVD. >>>> And the older OB can’t be programmed to those voltages >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jan 2, 2025, at 10:04 AM, Tyrone Houck via >>>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Forgive my ignorance but why won't the vfx lbco work >>>>> for lithium? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 2, 2025, 8:19 AM Bill Battagin via >>>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I am trying to use the "low battery disconnect" in >>>>> aux mode in a newly >>>>> installed OB FM80 CC for Li battery low voltage >>>>> protection. I can't use >>>>> the 19 year old OB VFX inverters for obvious >>>>> reasons. The plan is to run >>>>> the 12 volt output from the aux output to a NC >>>>> relay to open it at 50 >>>>> VDC of the bank of SimpliPhi 3.8M batteries. 50 >>>>> VDC is SimpliPhi's >>>>> recommendation for LVD. The "output" of the relay >>>>> would be connected to >>>>> the VFX's  ON-OFF landings of that little green >>>>> terminal block in the AC >>>>> side of the inverter and just act as a simple >>>>> switch for the inverter to >>>>> turn it off to save the batteries. >>>>> >>>>>              I'm using one of my newer FM80's as a >>>>> test run and have >>>>> programmed the voltages in  Low Battery Disconnect >>>>> mode and then put it >>>>> in auto mode.  However, as the CC goes below the >>>>> voltage set point, the >>>>> AUX output does not turn on (time set for 5 >>>>> seconds), as evidence in the >>>>> CC's home screen and by checking for 12V at the >>>>> AUX terminal block. >>>>> >>>>>              Any ideas of what I'm missing here to >>>>> make this work? I >>>>> know the other solution, thousands of $$ for new >>>>> inverters which would >>>>> be great but these folks have already invested >>>>> quite a chuck on array >>>>> replacement and charge controllers. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for any experience with this. >>>>> >>>>> Bill >>>>> >>>>> Feather River Solar Electric >>>>> Bill Battagin, owner >>>>> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >>>>> 5575 Genesee Rd >>>>> . >>>>> (USPS, UPS) >>>>> Taylorsville, CA  95983 >>>>> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >>>>> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >>>>> Solar Powered since 1982 >>>>> Home of the Sunny Side Up >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast >>>>> antivirus software. >>>>> www.avast.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When >>>>> one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>>>> doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>>> doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mac Lewis >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> Virus-free.www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> * >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> * >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Jan 7 18:43:09 2025 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2025 15:43:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Overpowered DC input In-Reply-To: <7F0203CC-658C-4E24-9065-C0E1B30F6CDD@gmail.com> References: <7F0203CC-658C-4E24-9065-C0E1B30F6CDD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7bbebc3d-871b-4817-b3e3-c4c5b7809342@psln.com> Another quandary.  The old SMA SBX000US transformer inverters would cost an arm and a leg to ship off (and returned from) somewhere to be fixed, if even fixable at a reasonable rate.  I found one online source that wanted $4K for one of these old timers, shipping not included. I was called to troubleshoot a 14 year old SB6000US. The screen came up with "disturbance XFMR" and the yellow LED flashed a code that was not in the manual.  I called SMA and was told that the inverter was dead.             I have a lead on a new sealed box SB5000US for much less but the original STC was 6200 watts.  The manual says Max DC power = 5300 watts.  Does anyone have any experience pushing these particular inverters a little harder like this with good results? I've certainly over DC powered a few newer SMA inverters without any problems but don't remember if it was an issue with this model. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 1/7/2025 6:28 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Mac, > > yeah its confusing. > > As far as I know, the fndc only controls the FNDC functions.  its own > internal AUX, and AGS % which you can control through the inverter > relay or the FNDC relay. > > All the other AUX relay functions are controlled by the device the AUX > is in. > > But I could be mistaken > > jay > > > > >> On Jan 7, 2025, at 7:20 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hi Jay, >> >> Adding some nuance here, and I could be mistaken about all >> of the functions that get taken over by the FNDC voltage. >> >> When you calibrate the FNDC, it "shows" the voltage on the Mate as >> the FNDC voltage if there is an FNDC in the system.   I also believe >> that it defaults to the FNDC voltage for some logic operations like >> AGS voltage starting etc.  I am not certain that LBCO uses the >> inverter voltage or the FNDC voltage, probably the inverter voltage.  >> I assume that all Mate operations default to FNDC voltage.  I would >> also assume that the aux relay will rely on the charge controller >> voltmeter driving the relay. >> >> One way to detect calibration issues is looking at the device status >> pages on Optics.  Each device will show a voltage and that will >> correspond to the device.  If something looks very different, it may >> be worth calibrating.  I have found most of the devices need >> calibrating at some point, charge controllers, inverters and the fndc. >> >> There are certainly voltmeters on each device, but I think some of >> the logic is affected by uncalibrated FNDC and I have found it very >> helpful to calibrate it carefully if I'm installing Lithium.  >> Certainly, your SOC calculation needs a calibrated FNDC. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 6:58 AM Jay via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hi Mac >> >> I’m >> Going to disagree. The FNDC only provides its voltage it doesn’t >> populate to the other devices. >> You still have to set the inverter and CC separately, a poor design. >> >> Depends on which mate you’ve got where the fndc voltage is located. >> >> >> One reason I don’t like the CC voltage for aux control is that it >> gets off while higher charging due to VD. And with lithium which >> spend almost no time at lower absorb amps, it could effect the >> actual end volts. >> >> >> And for whatever reason I have definitely had CC accuracy wander >> over time. IE the voltage calibration gets off for some reason. >> >> Depending on the exact lithium, might not be a problem, some have >> wider upper limit than others. >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jan 7, 2025, at 3:47 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Hi Bill, >>> >>> Do you have a flexnet in the system? >>> >>> I assume that it wouldn't matter if the FM80 is calibrated but >>> you will want the flexnet perfectly calibrated if you are using >>> Lithium.  It's a very annoying but worthwhile process.  Don't >>> drop the little nuts. >>> >>> Here is a paper on the procedure: >>> >>> https://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/fndc_field_cal_app_note.pdf >>> >>> The flexnet acts as a master voltage device so the system will >>> default its voltage readings to the flexnet voltmeter. I'm not >>> sure if the aux function of the FM80 uses the FM80's voltage or >>> the flexnet voltage to drive the relay, but this could explain >>> the issue. >>> >>> Good luck! >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:51 PM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hey Mac, >>> >>>             I've tried to calibrate the voltage displayed on >>> the Mate with the Fluke on the battery bus bars but it >>> doesn't seem to take after the adjustment in "calibrate".  >>> But The Flexmax 80 does calibrate perfectly to the actual >>> battery voltage and its in the FM80 aux landing that I'm >>> using for this go-around to shut down the inverter to save >>> the batteries. >>> >>>             'Manually' meaning.....? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >>> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >>> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >>> Solar Powered since 1982 >>> Home of the Sunny Side Up >>> >>> On 1/2/2025 5:53 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> Hi Bill, >>>> >>>> Are all your voltages calibrated?  Mate, Flexmax, FM80? >>>> Where are you reading the voltages? >>>> >>>> Does it work OK manually? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 2, 2025 at 12:08 PM Jay via RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Simpliphy has a very high voltage LVD. >>>> And the older OB can’t be programmed to those voltages >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jan 2, 2025, at 10:04 AM, Tyrone Houck via >>>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Forgive my ignorance but why won't the vfx lbco work >>>>> for lithium? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 2, 2025, 8:19 AM Bill Battagin via >>>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I am trying to use the "low battery disconnect" in >>>>> aux mode in a newly >>>>> installed OB FM80 CC for Li battery low voltage >>>>> protection. I can't use >>>>> the 19 year old OB VFX inverters for obvious >>>>> reasons. The plan is to run >>>>> the 12 volt output from the aux output to a NC >>>>> relay to open it at 50 >>>>> VDC of the bank of SimpliPhi 3.8M batteries. 50 >>>>> VDC is SimpliPhi's >>>>> recommendation for LVD. The "output" of the relay >>>>> would be connected to >>>>> the VFX's  ON-OFF landings of that little green >>>>> terminal block in the AC >>>>> side of the inverter and just act as a simple >>>>> switch for the inverter to >>>>> turn it off to save the batteries. >>>>> >>>>>              I'm using one of my newer FM80's as a >>>>> test run and have >>>>> programmed the voltages in  Low Battery Disconnect >>>>> mode and then put it >>>>> in auto mode.  However, as the CC goes below the >>>>> voltage set point, the >>>>> AUX output does not turn on (time set for 5 >>>>> seconds), as evidence in the >>>>> CC's home screen and by checking for 12V at the >>>>> AUX terminal block. >>>>> >>>>>              Any ideas of what I'm missing here to >>>>> make this work? I >>>>> know the other solution, thousands of $$ for new >>>>> inverters which would >>>>> be great but these folks have already invested >>>>> quite a chuck on array >>>>> replacement and charge controllers. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for any experience with this. >>>>> >>>>> Bill >>>>> >>>>> Feather River Solar Electric >>>>> Bill Battagin, owner >>>>> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >>>>> 5575 Genesee Rd >>>>> . >>>>> (USPS, UPS) >>>>> Taylorsville, CA  95983 >>>>> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >>>>> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >>>>> Solar Powered since 1982 >>>>> Home of the Sunny Side Up >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast >>>>> antivirus software. >>>>> www.avast.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When >>>>> one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>>>> doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>>> doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mac Lewis >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> Virus-free.www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> * >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> * >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> * >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> * >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 18:56:06 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2025 16:56:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternate LVD shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump3391 at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 18:56:12 2025 From: tump3391 at gmail.com (Blair May) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2025 18:56:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Overpowered DC input In-Reply-To: <7bbebc3d-871b-4817-b3e3-c4c5b7809342@psln.com> References: <7F0203CC-658C-4E24-9065-C0E1B30F6CDD@gmail.com> <7bbebc3d-871b-4817-b3e3-c4c5b7809342@psln.com> Message-ID: How old r the modules? 1.5 + is not a problem, the fan will come on but the STC is not the NOC. w/ a new modules the PTC verses STC figures is~ 20- 30 less watts. These days we all seem to b replacing older modules that have lost some umph. We would always push the SBs 1.5 as a standard practice. T wake up earlier n doze off later. Blair "Tump" May On Tue, Jan 7, 2025, 6:40 PM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Another quandary. The old SMA SBX000US transformer inverters would cost > an arm and a leg to ship off (and returned from) somewhere to be fixed, if > even fixable at a reasonable rate. I found one online source that wanted > $4K for one of these old timers, shipping not included. I was called to > troubleshoot a 14 year old SB6000US. The screen came up with "disturbance > XFMR" and the yellow LED flashed a code that was not in the manual. I > called SMA and was told that the inverter was dead. > > I have a lead on a new sealed box SB5000US for much less but > the original STC was 6200 watts. The manual says Max DC power = 5300 > watts. Does anyone have any experience pushing these particular inverters > a little harder like this with good results? I've certainly over DC > powered a few newer SMA inverters without any problems but don't remember > if it was an issue with this model. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > On 1/7/2025 6:28 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Mac, > > yeah its confusing. > > As far as I know, the fndc only controls the FNDC functions. its own > internal AUX, and AGS % which you can control through the inverter relay or > the FNDC relay. > > All the other AUX relay functions are controlled by the device the AUX is > in. > > But I could be mistaken > > jay > > > > > On Jan 7, 2025, at 7:20 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > Adding some nuance here, and I could be mistaken about all > of the functions that get taken over by the FNDC voltage. > > When you calibrate the FNDC, it "shows" the voltage on the Mate as the > FNDC voltage if there is an FNDC in the system. I also believe that it > defaults to the FNDC voltage for some logic operations like AGS voltage > starting etc. I am not certain that LBCO uses the inverter voltage or the > FNDC voltage, probably the inverter voltage. I assume that all Mate > operations default to FNDC voltage. I would also assume that the aux relay > will rely on the charge controller voltmeter driving the relay. > > One way to detect calibration issues is looking at the device status pages > on Optics. Each device will show a voltage and that will correspond to the > device. If something looks very different, it may be worth calibrating. I > have found most of the devices need calibrating at some point, charge > controllers, inverters and the fndc. > > There are certainly voltmeters on each device, but I think some of the > logic is affected by uncalibrated FNDC and I have found it very helpful to > calibrate it carefully if I'm installing Lithium. Certainly, your SOC > calculation needs a calibrated FNDC. > > > > On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 6:58 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Mac >> >> I’m >> Going to disagree. The FNDC only provides its voltage it doesn’t populate >> to the other devices. >> You still have to set the inverter and CC separately, a poor design. >> >> Depends on which mate you’ve got where the fndc voltage is located. >> >> >> One reason I don’t like the CC voltage for aux control is that it gets >> off while higher charging due to VD. And with lithium which spend almost no >> time at lower absorb amps, it could effect the actual end volts. >> >> >> And for whatever reason I have definitely had CC accuracy wander over >> time. IE the voltage calibration gets off for some reason. >> >> Depending on the exact lithium, might not be a problem, some have wider >> upper limit than others. >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 7, 2025, at 3:47 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Hi Bill, >> >> Do you have a flexnet in the system? >> >> I assume that it wouldn't matter if the FM80 is calibrated but you will >> want the flexnet perfectly calibrated if you are using Lithium. It's a >> very annoying but worthwhile process. Don't drop the little nuts. >> >> Here is a paper on the procedure: >> >> >> https://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/fndc_field_cal_app_note.pdf >> >> The flexnet acts as a master voltage device so the system will default >> its voltage readings to the flexnet voltmeter. I'm not sure if the aux >> function of the FM80 uses the FM80's voltage or the flexnet voltage to >> drive the relay, but this could explain the issue. >> >> Good luck! >> >> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:51 PM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hey Mac, >>> >>> I've tried to calibrate the voltage displayed on the Mate >>> with the Fluke on the battery bus bars but it doesn't seem to take after >>> the adjustment in "calibrate". But The Flexmax 80 does calibrate perfectly >>> to the actual battery voltage and its in the FM80 aux landing that I'm >>> using for this go-around to shut down the inverter to save the batteries. >>> >>> 'Manually' meaning.....? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >>> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >>> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >>> Solar Powered since 1982 >>> Home of the Sunny Side Up >>> >>> On 1/2/2025 5:53 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bill, >>> >>> Are all your voltages calibrated? Mate, Flexmax, FM80? Where are you >>> reading the voltages? >>> >>> Does it work OK manually? >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 2, 2025 at 12:08 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Simpliphy has a very high voltage LVD. >>>> And the older OB can’t be programmed to those voltages >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 2, 2025, at 10:04 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> Forgive my ignorance but why won't the vfx lbco work for lithium? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 2, 2025, 8:19 AM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I am trying to use the "low battery disconnect" in aux mode in a newly >>>>> installed OB FM80 CC for Li battery low voltage protection. I can't >>>>> use >>>>> the 19 year old OB VFX inverters for obvious reasons. The plan is to >>>>> run >>>>> the 12 volt output from the aux output to a NC relay to open it at 50 >>>>> VDC of the bank of SimpliPhi 3.8M batteries. 50 VDC is SimpliPhi's >>>>> recommendation for LVD. The "output" of the relay would be connected >>>>> to >>>>> the VFX's ON-OFF landings of that little green terminal block in the >>>>> AC >>>>> side of the inverter and just act as a simple switch for the inverter >>>>> to >>>>> turn it off to save the batteries. >>>>> >>>>> I'm using one of my newer FM80's as a test run and have >>>>> programmed the voltages in Low Battery Disconnect mode and then put >>>>> it >>>>> in auto mode. However, as the CC goes below the voltage set point, >>>>> the >>>>> AUX output does not turn on (time set for 5 seconds), as evidence in >>>>> the >>>>> CC's home screen and by checking for 12V at the AUX terminal block. >>>>> >>>>> Any ideas of what I'm missing here to make this work? I >>>>> know the other solution, thousands of $$ for new inverters which would >>>>> be great but these folks have already invested quite a chuck on array >>>>> replacement and charge controllers. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for any experience with this. >>>>> >>>>> Bill >>>>> >>>>> Feather River Solar Electric >>>>> Bill Battagin, owner >>>>> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >>>>> 5575 Genesee Rd >>>>> . >>>>> (USPS, UPS) >>>>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>>>> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >>>>> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >>>>> Solar Powered since 1982 >>>>> Home of the Sunny Side Up >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>>> www.avast.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Virus-free.www.avast.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jan 7 19:32:35 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2025 16:32:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Overpowered DC input In-Reply-To: <7bbebc3d-871b-4817-b3e3-c4c5b7809342@psln.com> References: <7F0203CC-658C-4E24-9065-C0E1B30F6CDD@gmail.com> <7bbebc3d-871b-4817-b3e3-c4c5b7809342@psln.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, Historically the older sma's would clip amps, l have programmed many at the request of the utility, l had one out of the box clipping as 10 watts rather than the 10 kW. it was nameplated as. Anyway its all in the voltage not the amps to worry about. Clipping may increase heat so keep them cool. Fun times On Tue, Jan 7, 2025, 3:40 PM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Another quandary. The old SMA SBX000US transformer inverters would cost > an arm and a leg to ship off (and returned from) somewhere to be fixed, if > even fixable at a reasonable rate. I found one online source that wanted > $4K for one of these old timers, shipping not included. I was called to > troubleshoot a 14 year old SB6000US. The screen came up with "disturbance > XFMR" and the yellow LED flashed a code that was not in the manual. I > called SMA and was told that the inverter was dead. > > I have a lead on a new sealed box SB5000US for much less but > the original STC was 6200 watts. The manual says Max DC power = 5300 > watts. Does anyone have any experience pushing these particular inverters > a little harder like this with good results? I've certainly over DC > powered a few newer SMA inverters without any problems but don't remember > if it was an issue with this model. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping)5575 Genesee Rd . (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > On 1/7/2025 6:28 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Mac, > > yeah its confusing. > > As far as I know, the fndc only controls the FNDC functions. its own > internal AUX, and AGS % which you can control through the inverter relay or > the FNDC relay. > > All the other AUX relay functions are controlled by the device the AUX is > in. > > But I could be mistaken > > jay > > > > > On Jan 7, 2025, at 7:20 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > Adding some nuance here, and I could be mistaken about all > of the functions that get taken over by the FNDC voltage. > > When you calibrate the FNDC, it "shows" the voltage on the Mate as the > FNDC voltage if there is an FNDC in the system. I also believe that it > defaults to the FNDC voltage for some logic operations like AGS voltage > starting etc. I am not certain that LBCO uses the inverter voltage or the > FNDC voltage, probably the inverter voltage. I assume that all Mate > operations default to FNDC voltage. I would also assume that the aux relay > will rely on the charge controller voltmeter driving the relay. > > One way to detect calibration issues is looking at the device status pages > on Optics. Each device will show a voltage and that will correspond to the > device. If something looks very different, it may be worth calibrating. I > have found most of the devices need calibrating at some point, charge > controllers, inverters and the fndc. > > There are certainly voltmeters on each device, but I think some of the > logic is affected by uncalibrated FNDC and I have found it very helpful to > calibrate it carefully if I'm installing Lithium. Certainly, your SOC > calculation needs a calibrated FNDC. > > > > On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 6:58 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Mac >> >> I’m >> Going to disagree. The FNDC only provides its voltage it doesn’t populate >> to the other devices. >> You still have to set the inverter and CC separately, a poor design. >> >> Depends on which mate you’ve got where the fndc voltage is located. >> >> >> One reason I don’t like the CC voltage for aux control is that it gets >> off while higher charging due to VD. And with lithium which spend almost no >> time at lower absorb amps, it could effect the actual end volts. >> >> >> And for whatever reason I have definitely had CC accuracy wander over >> time. IE the voltage calibration gets off for some reason. >> >> Depending on the exact lithium, might not be a problem, some have wider >> upper limit than others. >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 7, 2025, at 3:47 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Hi Bill, >> >> Do you have a flexnet in the system? >> >> I assume that it wouldn't matter if the FM80 is calibrated but you will >> want the flexnet perfectly calibrated if you are using Lithium. It's a >> very annoying but worthwhile process. Don't drop the little nuts. >> >> Here is a paper on the procedure: >> >> >> https://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/fndc_field_cal_app_note.pdf >> >> The flexnet acts as a master voltage device so the system will default >> its voltage readings to the flexnet voltmeter. I'm not sure if the aux >> function of the FM80 uses the FM80's voltage or the flexnet voltage to >> drive the relay, but this could explain the issue. >> >> Good luck! >> >> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 10:51 PM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hey Mac, >>> >>> I've tried to calibrate the voltage displayed on the Mate >>> with the Fluke on the battery bus bars but it doesn't seem to take after >>> the adjustment in "calibrate". But The Flexmax 80 does calibrate perfectly >>> to the actual battery voltage and its in the FM80 aux landing that I'm >>> using for this go-around to shut down the inverter to save the batteries. >>> >>> 'Manually' meaning.....? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping)5575 Genesee Rd . (USPS, UPS) >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >>> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >>> Solar Powered since 1982 >>> Home of the Sunny Side Up >>> >>> On 1/2/2025 5:53 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bill, >>> >>> Are all your voltages calibrated? Mate, Flexmax, FM80? Where are you >>> reading the voltages? >>> >>> Does it work OK manually? >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 2, 2025 at 12:08 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Simpliphy has a very high voltage LVD. >>>> And the older OB can’t be programmed to those voltages >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 2, 2025, at 10:04 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> Forgive my ignorance but why won't the vfx lbco work for lithium? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 2, 2025, 8:19 AM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I am trying to use the "low battery disconnect" in aux mode in a newly >>>>> installed OB FM80 CC for Li battery low voltage protection. I can't >>>>> use >>>>> the 19 year old OB VFX inverters for obvious reasons. The plan is to >>>>> run >>>>> the 12 volt output from the aux output to a NC relay to open it at 50 >>>>> VDC of the bank of SimpliPhi 3.8M batteries. 50 VDC is SimpliPhi's >>>>> recommendation for LVD. The "output" of the relay would be connected >>>>> to >>>>> the VFX's ON-OFF landings of that little green terminal block in the >>>>> AC >>>>> side of the inverter and just act as a simple switch for the inverter >>>>> to >>>>> turn it off to save the batteries. >>>>> >>>>> I'm using one of my newer FM80's as a test run and have >>>>> programmed the voltages in Low Battery Disconnect mode and then put >>>>> it >>>>> in auto mode. However, as the CC goes below the voltage set point, >>>>> the >>>>> AUX output does not turn on (time set for 5 seconds), as evidence in >>>>> the >>>>> CC's home screen and by checking for 12V at the AUX terminal block. >>>>> >>>>> Any ideas of what I'm missing here to make this work? I >>>>> know the other solution, thousands of $$ for new inverters which would >>>>> be great but these folks have already invested quite a chuck on array >>>>> replacement and charge controllers. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for any experience with this. >>>>> >>>>> Bill >>>>> >>>>> Feather River Solar Electric >>>>> Bill Battagin, owner >>>>> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >>>>> 5575 Genesee Rd >>>>> . >>>>> (USPS, UPS) >>>>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>>>> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >>>>> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >>>>> Solar Powered since 1982 >>>>> Home of the Sunny Side Up >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>>> www.avast.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Virus-free.www.avast.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 9 11:26:10 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2025 09:26:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Iron Cell recovery Message-ID: Hey Wrenches, I am working on recovering a Lithium Iron Phosphate cylindrical cell battery that has about 5 years of cycling on it. We didn't install this system but they have 2 x Relion RB48V300 paralleled at a telecomm site. They are a pretty simple battery, just in a box with no easy way to pull data unless you have some programming knowledge beyond what I have. We found that one bank of the series cells was sitting at 0.9V, probably for about a month or so. It was in parallel with another battery so it may have been longer. We were able to get it slowly charged up and the battery has cycled well a few times in the shop, we have been able to easily pull about 90% of the nameplate out without the cell dropping and getting BMS shutdown. *Are there any concerns (safety mainly) with reinstalling this unit?* It is matching the voltage of the other cell banks nicely now. No real difference in temperatures either. Any other tests we should do? Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Jan 9 11:28:10 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2025 11:28:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Switching to LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: References: <0548f914-5e68-45a5-8544-5db1b7ac1b2a@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, I had a lengthy response to one of your wrenches requests but failed to send it . As it might be of interest to others, I am sending it now. Since I wrote it, I have completed the repairs of the two e-flex 5.4’s. The one with on off switch on when received had drifted down to total shutdown at way below the recovery voltage in the low 40’s. Charging initially with a 2 amp power supply overnight brought it back to 44 volts then my iota topped it off. Works good now. The other one with lights but no output had a bad battery fuse which Fortress replaced and it also is fine. Most other brands without access to the BMS would have created a problem with no easy resolution. Below is the original email: I have upgraded systems in various ways but my choice has been to upgrade to 48v for more battery options if your input voltages from the solar allow. I prefer Fortress e-flex 5.4 batteries as they are manageable in size and weight, field replaceable BMS, good tech support and a company that is well managed and should be here for the long haul, They are not the least expensive but from what I have seen with several customers having bought the cheaper ones only to find out that the companies do not respond to tech support calls or they are out of business. I hook up the other brand batteries they have purchased elsewhere but tell them I can't support them. I have a single VFXR3648 at my house and 2 fortress e-flex 5.4 The only problem I saw with the VFX and Fortress batteries was the low battery cut off setting not going high enough. I have the Fortress Guardian that gives me remote SOC on each battery, battery voltage and charge and discharge amps, and combined battery info with one click on the app. When I updated my inverter to the VFXR I now have a good low battery cutout setting but otherwise notice no difference. I have had one e-flex hit by lightning and yes, I was negligent and did not have SPD's on the system. Fortress sent me a new BMS board and I had it installed in a half hour. I have two e-flex's here at my shop now with issues and their tech support has been great, They even email me to see how I am doing with the troubleshooting. I,ve just been too busy to pull the covers. One battery had the on /off switch in the on position right out of the box so that one will need a direct recharge to the batteries bypassing the bms. The other one lights up but tech support says it is probably in low battery voltage mode and also will need an internal charge. I have confidence that they will both be working soon as soon as I can get back to it. I also use an IOTA charger with my single outback inverter for faster generator charge using the L 2 off my generator for the IOTA and L 1 through the inverter, This also gives me the jump start feature for the lithium batteries in the event that the batteries shut themselves off in a low voltage situation. John Blittersdorf On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 6:02 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I don’t want to stray too far off track, but it’s worth discussing how > challenging it is to predict which manufacturers will be around in a few > years. > > I know this might be a touchy subject, but Enphase is beginning to offer > full off-grid support. While I’m fully aware of the drawbacks of their > system architecture for off-grid setups, it’s also important to acknowledge > that no manufacturer is “too big to fail”—but Enphase is about as close as > we have right now. If something were to happen to them, the reliance on > remote access for the system functioning is concerning. It could > essentially become a big brick if a service issue arises and there’s no > support. On the other hand, Enphase may be a safe bet for certain off-grid > systems if you think they will come out on top. > > But the reason I bring Enphase up is modularity. Building systems with > interconnected components from various brands can spread the risk. Sol-Ark, > with its “battery agnostic” approach, is a reasonable choice, as long as > there’s a replacement all-in-one option if they were to go out of business. > EG4 and Midnite seem to offer alternatives in that space now. As long as > LiFePO manufacturers stick with 48V/51.2V standards, complete battery > replacements should be straightforward. However, I do think that large > battery sizes like 5 kWh (or even 13.5 and 14.3 kWh) could be problematic. > Personally, I prefer the concept of smaller, 1 kWh chunks. In the case of a > 40 kWh battery bank, for example, if one module fails and the manufacturer > is no longer around, it’s a lot easier to deal with. That's similar to how > we can drop one faulty 2V cell in a series of 24 lead acid batteries > sometimes. Enphase, if you think about it, is the least modular approach in > some ways, since it relies on a single manufacturer with a proprietary > system. So the whole concept of modularity is not straightforward, either. > It's a fantasy at this point to hope for a truly modular and > manufacturer-agnostic system. > > What I find interesting is that most of my clients who went off-grid 7-15 > years ago are pretty understanding when I tell them it’s time to replace > their systems. Realistically, fast-forward another decade, and we’ll > probably see significant advances that make a complete system replacement > worth it once again. I’m not saying we should be designing disposable > systems, but that might be where we’re headed, just like so many other > industries. Think of what Tesla is doing with the Powewall 3. They are > making solar and batteries as cheap as possible (while maintaining high > quality standards and keeping fuel in Elon's jet). However, when the PW4 > comes out, the PW3 will be deprecated, and those systems will become > essentially disposable. The warranty is only 10 years. So when the inverter > insude the PW3 dies in year 11, guess what – the entire PW3, battery and > all, may be rendered useless. But, people still flock to Tesla for backup > systems. And for good reasons. > > The days of keeping systems running on old components while upgrading just > parts of the system are probably behind us. The rapid evolution of > technology, equipment, codes, safety, and consumer needs will make whatever > we install today obsolete soon after it's up and running. > > > --end rant-- > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 5:20 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Honestly, that advice would seem to be true, but the reality is: It is >> not valid. Just look at Blue Planet, that was supposed to be a top tier >> offering. Solar World? AEE? Magnum has had serious issues, Outback >> doesn't answer the phone, SImpliphi takes an attorney to honor their >> warranty. Even long standing companies are not sure bets, at all. They >> do cost much more, so I'm not sure who to turn to anymore. I'm about to >> install Rubix LiPO4, which comes in a 24 v offering, BTW for Dave. >> >> The biggest issue I've seen with old VFX inverters, is the LVD set point >> can't go high enough for LiPO4. I use the aux out on a charge >> controller, to switch on and off the remote switch on the VFX. >> >> I like the Fortress with Solark combo, but its not without its troubles >> either. If the Solark shuts off due to low voltage, so does your PV >> input. Then the no load draw on the Fortress eventually shuts down the >> battery. You really need some (at least 1 kW) of DC coupled PV to keep >> that death spiral from happening. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> On 9/17/2024 12:23 PM, Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> > Jerry, >> > Re your advice to never get startups or small manufacturers as so many >> > disappear and now you are stuck, I guess we should stick with the big >> > well-established manufacturers, like Outback, Magnum and Blue Planet, >> > right? >> > As you would say, fun times... >> > Allan >> > >> > On 9/17/2024 10:58 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Dave, >> >> I would suggest stepping up to 48 nominal, fortress 18.5, battery 12 >> >> or 15 k solark inverter, re-wire the array to single or dual string, >> >> make the wiring in the home capable of 240, this usually requires >> >> main panel re-work and set up the monitoring. >> >> Batteries are like replacement heart valves, never get startups or >> >> small manufacturers as so many disappear and now you are stuck. >> >> Fun times. >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> > the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 9 11:59:25 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2025 09:59:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Iron Cell recovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25FC7653-56A3-441B-A8D2-D80C91365D91@gmail.com> Hi Mac I guess my question would how did this happen and why wouldn’t it happen again? It would seem the balance system didn’t work or isn’t working? And I don’t know what kind of issues that could cause going forward. I guess I’d be cautious about what could happen I have heard from a few people about relion batteries absolutely blowing up. No fires but total destruction. Jay > On Jan 9, 2025, at 9:26 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hey Wrenches, > > I am working on recovering a Lithium Iron Phosphate cylindrical cell battery that has about 5 years of cycling on it. We didn't install this system but they have 2 x Relion RB48V300 paralleled at a telecomm site. > > They are a pretty simple battery, just in a box with no easy way to pull data unless you have some programming knowledge beyond what I have. We found that one bank of the series cells was sitting at 0.9V, probably for about a month or so. It was in parallel with another battery so it may have been longer. > > We were able to get it slowly charged up and the battery has cycled well a few times in the shop, we have been able to easily pull about 90% of the nameplate out without the cell dropping and getting BMS shutdown. Are there any concerns (safety mainly) with reinstalling this unit? > > It is matching the voltage of the other cell banks nicely now. No real difference in temperatures either. Any other tests we should do? > > Thanks! > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 13:25:32 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2025 11:25:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fm-80 oddness Message-ID: Hi all I just checked on a newer install with fm-80 It is turning off ( snooze) after just a few minutes before it gets to absorb and isn’t going into float. Won’t do eq either. Not connected via comms or temp sensor. ( disconnected to trouble shoot Rebooted to factory default, same issue. I’m guessing it’s dead? Anyone else seen this? And is there a snowball chance in hell OB has replacements? Thanks Jay From dan at foxfire-energy.com Fri Jan 10 13:56:39 2025 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2025 18:56:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fm-80 oddness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rumor has it “Somebody “ farmed out manufacturer of OB components to umm, Off Shore outfits.. but to guard against piracy, they didn’t give them the codes.. we’ve been seeing OB knock off devices (with problems very similar to those you describe) for a few years now.. watch for Squirrley operation right out of the box, previously registered SR # and SR# and MAC address that doesn’t match.. etc.. db Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 10, 2025, at 1:26 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi all > > I just checked on a newer install with fm-80 > > It is turning off ( snooze) after just a few minutes before it gets to absorb and isn’t going into float. > > Won’t do eq either. > > Not connected via comms or temp sensor. ( disconnected to trouble shoot > > Rebooted to factory default, same issue. > > I’m guessing it’s dead? > > Anyone else seen this? > And is there a snowball chance in hell OB has replacements? > > Thanks > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 10 14:19:53 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2025 12:19:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fm-80 oddness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <260E2BB0-4A28-432A-A70F-38D9CD705374@gmail.com> But this worked for almost 2 yrs. And worked with mate 3s no problem. I had heard about this, and I’ve seen them at super cheap prices. But I bought this from a reputable company. OB tech phone says go to the website chat. They did respond and said call them. Voice mail says 1-2 day response time. Hell of a way to run a business Jay > On Jan 10, 2025, at 11:57 AM, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Rumor has it “Somebody “ farmed out manufacturer of OB components to umm, Off Shore outfits.. but to guard against piracy, they didn’t give them the codes.. we’ve been seeing OB knock off devices (with problems very similar to those you describe) for a few years now.. watch for Squirrley operation right out of the box, previously registered SR # and SR# and MAC address that doesn’t match.. etc.. > db > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 10, 2025, at 1:26 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi all >> >> I just checked on a newer install with fm-80 >> >> It is turning off ( snooze) after just a few minutes before it gets to absorb and isn’t going into float. >> >> Won’t do eq either. >> >> Not connected via comms or temp sensor. ( disconnected to trouble shoot >> >> Rebooted to factory default, same issue. >> >> I’m guessing it’s dead? >> >> Anyone else seen this? >> And is there a snowball chance in hell OB has replacements? >> >> Thanks >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From rich at solartechvt.com Fri Jan 10 15:52:17 2025 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Richard Nicol) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2025 15:52:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fm-80 oddness In-Reply-To: <260E2BB0-4A28-432A-A70F-38D9CD705374@gmail.com> References: <260E2BB0-4A28-432A-A70F-38D9CD705374@gmail.com> Message-ID: <404C0AD9-0D84-4E90-A97E-56AE8A810224@solartechvt.com> Not related specifically to the issue you’re having with the FM80, but a supplier told me this week that they just got a batch of newly Texas manufactured Outback products. They noted that they expect it to continue to ramp up. It doesn’t sound like they’re making inverters or charge controllers yet, but mates, enclosures etc. Sent from my iPad > On Jan 10, 2025, at 2:20 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > But this worked for almost 2 yrs. > And worked with mate 3s no problem. > > I had heard about this, and I’ve seen them at super cheap prices. > But I bought this from a reputable company. > > OB tech phone says go to the website chat. They did respond and said call them. Voice mail says 1-2 day response time. > > Hell of a way to run a business > > Jay > > > >> On Jan 10, 2025, at 11:57 AM, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Rumor has it “Somebody “ farmed out manufacturer of OB components to umm, Off Shore outfits.. but to guard against piracy, they didn’t give them the codes.. we’ve been seeing OB knock off devices (with problems very similar to those you describe) for a few years now.. watch for Squirrley operation right out of the box, previously registered SR # and SR# and MAC address that doesn’t match.. etc.. >> db >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Jan 10, 2025, at 1:26 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hi all >>> >>> I just checked on a newer install with fm-80 >>> >>> It is turning off ( snooze) after just a few minutes before it gets to absorb and isn’t going into float. >>> >>> Won’t do eq either. >>> >>> Not connected via comms or temp sensor. ( disconnected to trouble shoot >>> >>> Rebooted to factory default, same issue. >>> >>> I’m guessing it’s dead? >>> >>> Anyone else seen this? >>> And is there a snowball chance in hell OB has replacements? >>> >>> Thanks >>> Jay >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 11 14:20:30 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2025 12:20:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fm-80 oddness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <298703EF-F45B-42CC-B9AB-DE64199C5154@gmail.com> Follow-up. The controller started up later after I left and according to history did produce kWh. I watched it for a good 15-20 minutes and it was in snooze the whole time. Battery volts were low. I’ve replaced it for now. I ve never seen one do this before. Jay > On Jan 10, 2025, at 11:25 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all > > I just checked on a newer install with fm-80 > > It is turning off ( snooze) after just a few minutes before it gets to absorb and isn’t going into float. > > Won’t do eq either. > > Not connected via comms or temp sensor. ( disconnected to trouble shoot > > Rebooted to factory default, same issue. > > I’m guessing it’s dead? > > Anyone else seen this? > And is there a snowball chance in hell OB has replacements? > > Thanks > Jay From william at millersolar.com Sat Jan 11 15:49:11 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2025 12:49:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fm-80 oddness In-Reply-To: <298703EF-F45B-42CC-B9AB-DE64199C5154@gmail.com> References: <298703EF-F45B-42CC-B9AB-DE64199C5154@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay: I saw this exact behavior recently with an older MX80. Replacing it resolved the problem. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 11:21 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fm-80 oddness Follow-up. The controller started up later after I left and according to history did produce kWh. I watched it for a good 15-20 minutes and it was in snooze the whole time. Battery volts were low. I’ve replaced it for now. I ve never seen one do this before. Jay > On Jan 10, 2025, at 11:25 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all > > I just checked on a newer install with fm-80 > > It is turning off ( snooze) after just a few minutes before it gets to > absorb and isn’t going into float. > > Won’t do eq either. > > Not connected via comms or temp sensor. ( disconnected to trouble shoot > > Rebooted to factory default, same issue. > > I’m guessing it’s dead? > > Anyone else seen this? > And is there a snowball chance in hell OB has replacements? > > Thanks > Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 11 17:48:01 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2025 15:48:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <298703EF-F45B-42CC-B9AB-DE64199C5154@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7E84311B-8B16-4461-9392-8D09E7E90998@gmail.com> Hi All I have a customer what is set on AGM. It been so long since I’ve bough any, wondering if there are any recommendations? The ones I’m looking at: Rolls S6-460AGM-RE Full river DC-400-6 Trojan SAES 06 375 6V sun Xtender brand. What’s interesting is the trojan has about 3000 cycles vs the others at around 1250 cycles to 50%. Im wondering if that is a marketing idea or if its real. thanks in advance jay From william at millersolar.com Sat Jan 11 18:17:33 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2025 15:17:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: <7E84311B-8B16-4461-9392-8D09E7E90998@gmail.com> References: <298703EF-F45B-42CC-B9AB-DE64199C5154@gmail.com> <7E84311B-8B16-4461-9392-8D09E7E90998@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5ed39d50048fdb64f5966fd6d3fa004d@mail.gmail.com> Jay: What AH or Kwh level are you looking for? Trojan was acquired by another company a few years ago and quality had gone downhill. Rolls is very sensitive to high temperatures. They will deny a warranty claim if all of your parameters are not exactly right. For larger AH systems: I like the Full River DC-400-2. You might be able to do a one string installation. Unigy II is a great system. Very robust. Hard to deliver but I can offer tips. Lots of AH size options. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 2:48 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: jay Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations Hi All I have a customer what is set on AGM. It been so long since I’ve bought any, wondering if there are any recommendations? The ones I’m looking at: Rolls S6-460AGM-RE Full river DC-400-6 Trojan SAES 06 375 6V sun Xtender brand. What’s interesting is the trojan has about 3000 cycles vs the others at around 1250 cycles to 50%. Im wondering if that is a marketing idea or if its real. thanks in advance jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 11 18:30:08 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2025 16:30:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: <5ed39d50048fdb64f5966fd6d3fa004d@mail.gmail.com> References: <298703EF-F45B-42CC-B9AB-DE64199C5154@gmail.com> <7E84311B-8B16-4461-9392-8D09E7E90998@gmail.com> <5ed39d50048fdb64f5966fd6d3fa004d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3CC2BBEB-48D2-42A0-9AEA-831494890E37@gmail.com> HI Willam Thanks for the input. I didn’t know that trojan was sold, and from what you say, yeah scratch them off. It’s currently at 30kwh. And thats probably a good size. As always, cost and time is a factor. I’ll check the others out. jay > On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:17 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Jay: > > What AH or Kwh level are you looking for? > > Trojan was acquired by another company a few years ago and quality had gone > downhill. > > Rolls is very sensitive to high temperatures. They will deny a warranty > claim if all of your parameters are not exactly right. > > For larger AH systems: > > I like the Full River DC-400-2. You might be able to do a one string > installation. > > Unigy II is a great system. Very robust. Hard to deliver but I can offer > tips. Lots of AH size options. > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 2:48 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: jay > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations > > Hi All > > I have a customer what is set on AGM. > > It been so long since I’ve bought any, wondering if there are any > recommendations? > > The ones I’m looking at: > > Rolls S6-460AGM-RE > > Full river DC-400-6 > > Trojan SAES 06 375 6V > > sun Xtender brand. > > What’s interesting is the trojan has about 3000 cycles vs the others at > around 1250 cycles to 50%. > Im wondering if that is a marketing idea or if its real. > > thanks in advance > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Sat Jan 11 18:35:07 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2025 15:35:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: <3CC2BBEB-48D2-42A0-9AEA-831494890E37@gmail.com> References: <298703EF-F45B-42CC-B9AB-DE64199C5154@gmail.com> <7E84311B-8B16-4461-9392-8D09E7E90998@gmail.com> <5ed39d50048fdb64f5966fd6d3fa004d@mail.gmail.com> <3CC2BBEB-48D2-42A0-9AEA-831494890E37@gmail.com> Message-ID: 30KWH of LFP from discover energy, fits in one enclosure, around $14000.00 Enclosure is indoor/outdoor rated. https://discoverenergysys.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount https://discoverenergysys.com/products/accessories/slimline-enclosure On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 3:31 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI Willam > > Thanks for the input. > I didn’t know that trojan was sold, and from what you say, yeah scratch > them off. > > It’s currently at 30kwh. And thats probably a good size. > As always, cost and time is a factor. > > I’ll check the others out. > > jay > > > > > > > On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:17 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > > > Jay: > > > > What AH or Kwh level are you looking for? > > > > Trojan was acquired by another company a few years ago and quality had > gone > > downhill. > > > > Rolls is very sensitive to high temperatures. They will deny a warranty > > claim if all of your parameters are not exactly right. > > > > For larger AH systems: > > > > I like the Full River DC-400-2. You might be able to do a one string > > installation. > > > > Unigy II is a great system. Very robust. Hard to deliver but I can > offer > > tips. Lots of AH size options. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > > Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches > > Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 2:48 PM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Cc: jay > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations > > > > Hi All > > > > I have a customer what is set on AGM. > > > > It been so long since I’ve bought any, wondering if there are any > > recommendations? > > > > The ones I’m looking at: > > > > Rolls S6-460AGM-RE > > > > Full river DC-400-6 > > > > Trojan SAES 06 375 6V > > > > sun Xtender brand. > > > > What’s interesting is the trojan has about 3000 cycles vs the others at > > around 1250 cycles to 50%. > > Im wondering if that is a marketing idea or if its real. > > > > thanks in advance > > > > jay > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 11 18:38:09 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2025 16:38:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <298703EF-F45B-42CC-B9AB-DE64199C5154@gmail.com> <7E84311B-8B16-4461-9392-8D09E7E90998@gmail.com> <5ed39d50048fdb64f5966fd6d3fa004d@mail.gmail.com> <3CC2BBEB-48D2-42A0-9AEA-831494890E37@gmail.com> Message-ID: I was going to try and steer her towards lithium but she wants zero, absolutely zero chance of fire, so no lithium. great batteries though jay > On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:35 PM, MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > 30KWH of LFP from discover energy, fits in one enclosure, around $14000.00 > Enclosure is indoor/outdoor rated. > > https://discoverenergysys.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount > https://discoverenergysys.com/products/accessories/slimline-enclosure > > On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 3:31 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> HI Willam >> >> Thanks for the input. >> I didn’t know that trojan was sold, and from what you say, yeah scratch them off. >> >> It’s currently at 30kwh. And thats probably a good size. >> As always, cost and time is a factor. >> >> I’ll check the others out. >> >> jay >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:17 PM, William Miller > wrote: >> > >> > Jay: >> > >> > What AH or Kwh level are you looking for? >> > >> > Trojan was acquired by another company a few years ago and quality had gone >> > downhill. >> > >> > Rolls is very sensitive to high temperatures. They will deny a warranty >> > claim if all of your parameters are not exactly right. >> > >> > For larger AH systems: >> > >> > I like the Full River DC-400-2. You might be able to do a one string >> > installation. >> > >> > Unigy II is a great system. Very robust. Hard to deliver but I can offer >> > tips. Lots of AH size options. >> > >> > William >> > >> > Miller Solar >> > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> > 805-438-5600 >> > www.millersolar.com >> > CA Lic. 773985 >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On >> > Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches >> > Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 2:48 PM >> > To: RE-wrenches >> > Cc: jay >> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations >> > >> > Hi All >> > >> > I have a customer what is set on AGM. >> > >> > It been so long since I’ve bought any, wondering if there are any >> > recommendations? >> > >> > The ones I’m looking at: >> > >> > Rolls S6-460AGM-RE >> > >> > Full river DC-400-6 >> > >> > Trojan SAES 06 375 6V >> > >> > sun Xtender brand. >> > >> > What’s interesting is the trojan has about 3000 cycles vs the others at >> > around 1250 cycles to 50%. >> > Im wondering if that is a marketing idea or if its real. >> > >> > thanks in advance >> > >> > jay >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> > other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Sun Jan 12 11:39:26 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2025 08:39:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <298703EF-F45B-42CC-B9AB-DE64199C5154@gmail.com> <7E84311B-8B16-4461-9392-8D09E7E90998@gmail.com> <5ed39d50048fdb64f5966fd6d3fa004d@mail.gmail.com> <3CC2BBEB-48D2-42A0-9AEA-831494890E37@gmail.com> Message-ID: I hate to be the one to say it but LFP has arguably less fire risk than agm. A short circuit in an agm could be disastrous and AGM is not necessarily any safer or less prone to thermal runaway events than modern LFP. I'd recommend a cobalt free LFP like homegrid, simpliphi, or midnite if it were me.. On Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 3:38 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I was going to try and steer her towards lithium but she wants zero, > absolutely zero chance of fire, so no lithium. > > great batteries though > > jay > > > > On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:35 PM, MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > 30KWH of LFP from discover energy, fits in one enclosure, around $14000.00 > Enclosure is indoor/outdoor rated. > > https://discoverenergysys.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount > https://discoverenergysys.com/products/accessories/slimline-enclosure > > On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 3:31 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> HI Willam >> >> Thanks for the input. >> I didn’t know that trojan was sold, and from what you say, yeah scratch >> them off. >> >> It’s currently at 30kwh. And thats probably a good size. >> As always, cost and time is a factor. >> >> I’ll check the others out. >> >> jay >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:17 PM, William Miller >> wrote: >> > >> > Jay: >> > >> > What AH or Kwh level are you looking for? >> > >> > Trojan was acquired by another company a few years ago and quality had >> gone >> > downhill. >> > >> > Rolls is very sensitive to high temperatures. They will deny a warranty >> > claim if all of your parameters are not exactly right. >> > >> > For larger AH systems: >> > >> > I like the Full River DC-400-2. You might be able to do a one string >> > installation. >> > >> > Unigy II is a great system. Very robust. Hard to deliver but I can >> offer >> > tips. Lots of AH size options. >> > >> > William >> > >> > Miller Solar >> > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> > 805-438-5600 >> > www.millersolar.com >> > CA Lic. 773985 >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> > Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches >> > Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 2:48 PM >> > To: RE-wrenches >> > Cc: jay >> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations >> > >> > Hi All >> > >> > I have a customer what is set on AGM. >> > >> > It been so long since I’ve bought any, wondering if there are any >> > recommendations? >> > >> > The ones I’m looking at: >> > >> > Rolls S6-460AGM-RE >> > >> > Full river DC-400-6 >> > >> > Trojan SAES 06 375 6V >> > >> > sun Xtender brand. >> > >> > What’s interesting is the trojan has about 3000 cycles vs the others at >> > around 1250 cycles to 50%. >> > Im wondering if that is a marketing idea or if its real. >> > >> > thanks in advance >> > >> > jay >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the >> > other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Jan 12 12:38:17 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2025 10:38:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <298703EF-F45B-42CC-B9AB-DE64199C5154@gmail.com> <7E84311B-8B16-4461-9392-8D09E7E90998@gmail.com> <5ed39d50048fdb64f5966fd6d3fa004d@mail.gmail.com> <3CC2BBEB-48D2-42A0-9AEA-831494890E37@gmail.com> Message-ID: <239dbd07-ec13-45d7-9a50-f518e09244cd@solarray.com> The only thermal runaway event I've ever seen, was with AGM in an over insulated battery box.  Got so hot that the cases fused to each other, and we had to pry the batteries apart with a crow bar.  She wants ZERO risk of fire?  She needs to live in a concrete bunker with no electricity at all.  Every electrical connection, every outlet, every appliance has a risk of fire. Period. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 1/12/2025 9:39 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > I hate to be the one to say it but LFP has arguably less fire risk > than agm. A short circuit in an agm could be disastrous and AGM is not > necessarily any safer or less prone to thermal runaway events than > modern LFP. I'd recommend a cobalt free LFP like homegrid, simpliphi, > or midnite if it were me.. > > > > On Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 3:38 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I was going to try and steer her towards lithium but she wants > zero, absolutely zero chance of fire, so no lithium. > > great batteries though > > jay > > > >> On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:35 PM, MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> 30KWH of LFP from discover energy, fits in one enclosure, around >> $14000.00 >> Enclosure is indoor/outdoor rated. >> >> https://discoverenergysys.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount >> https://discoverenergysys.com/products/accessories/slimline-enclosure >> >> On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 3:31 PM jay via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> HI Willam >> >> Thanks for the input. >> I didn’t know that trojan was sold, and from what you say, >> yeah scratch them off. >> >> It’s currently at 30kwh.  And thats probably a good size. >> As always, cost and time is a factor. >> >> I’ll check the others out. >> >> jay >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:17 PM, William Miller >> wrote: >> > >> > Jay: >> > >> > What AH or Kwh level are you looking for? >> > >> > Trojan was acquired by another company a few years ago and >> quality had gone >> > downhill. >> > >> > Rolls is very sensitive to high temperatures.  They will >> deny a warranty >> > claim if all of your parameters are not exactly right. >> > >> > For larger AH systems: >> > >> > I like the Full River DC-400-2.  You might be able to do a >> one string >> > installation. >> > >> > Unigy II is a great system.  Very robust.  Hard to deliver >> but I can offer >> > tips.  Lots of AH size options. >> > >> > William >> > >> > Miller Solar >> > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> > 805-438-5600 >> > www.millersolar.com >> > CA Lic. 773985 >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> > Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches >> > Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 2:48 PM >> > To: RE-wrenches >> > Cc: jay >> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations >> > >> > Hi All >> > >> > I have a customer what is set on AGM. >> > >> > It been so long since I’ve bought any, wondering if there >> are any >> > recommendations? >> > >> > The ones I’m looking at: >> > >> > Rolls  S6-460AGM-RE >> > >> > Full river DC-400-6 >> > >> > Trojan SAES 06 375 6V >> > >> > sun Xtender  brand. >> > >> > What’s interesting is the trojan has about 3000 cycles vs >> the others at >> > around 1250 cycles to 50%. >> > Im wondering if that is a marketing idea or if its real. >> > >> > thanks in advance >> > >> > jay >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the >> > other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >> Office: 707-412-3181 >> Cell: 707-684-0064 >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Sun Jan 12 12:51:31 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2025 09:51:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: <239dbd07-ec13-45d7-9a50-f518e09244cd@solarray.com> References: <298703EF-F45B-42CC-B9AB-DE64199C5154@gmail.com> <7E84311B-8B16-4461-9392-8D09E7E90998@gmail.com> <5ed39d50048fdb64f5966fd6d3fa004d@mail.gmail.com> <3CC2BBEB-48D2-42A0-9AEA-831494890E37@gmail.com> <239dbd07-ec13-45d7-9a50-f518e09244cd@solarray.com> Message-ID: I had the exact same thing happen(even down to the crowbar) with the only set of full river 400 6's I've ever installed. I personally lean away from agm though we've had pretty good luck with the Outback and Northstar PLR platform over the year.. On Sun, Jan 12, 2025, 9:39 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The only thermal runaway event I've ever seen, was with AGM in an over > insulated battery box. Got so hot that the cases fused to each other, and > we had to pry the batteries apart with a crow bar. She wants ZERO risk of > fire? She needs to live in a concrete bunker with no electricity at all. > Every electrical connection, every outlet, every appliance has a risk of > fire. Period. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 1/12/2025 9:39 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I hate to be the one to say it but LFP has arguably less fire risk than > agm. A short circuit in an agm could be disastrous and AGM is not > necessarily any safer or less prone to thermal runaway events than modern > LFP. I'd recommend a cobalt free LFP like homegrid, simpliphi, or midnite > if it were me.. > > > > > On Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 3:38 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I was going to try and steer her towards lithium but she wants zero, >> absolutely zero chance of fire, so no lithium. >> >> great batteries though >> >> jay >> >> >> >> On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:35 PM, MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> 30KWH of LFP from discover energy, fits in one enclosure, around $14000.00 >> Enclosure is indoor/outdoor rated. >> >> https://discoverenergysys.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount >> https://discoverenergysys.com/products/accessories/slimline-enclosure >> >> On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 3:31 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> HI Willam >>> >>> Thanks for the input. >>> I didn’t know that trojan was sold, and from what you say, yeah scratch >>> them off. >>> >>> It’s currently at 30kwh. And thats probably a good size. >>> As always, cost and time is a factor. >>> >>> I’ll check the others out. >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:17 PM, William Miller >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Jay: >>> > >>> > What AH or Kwh level are you looking for? >>> > >>> > Trojan was acquired by another company a few years ago and quality had >>> gone >>> > downhill. >>> > >>> > Rolls is very sensitive to high temperatures. They will deny a >>> warranty >>> > claim if all of your parameters are not exactly right. >>> > >>> > For larger AH systems: >>> > >>> > I like the Full River DC-400-2. You might be able to do a one string >>> > installation. >>> > >>> > Unigy II is a great system. Very robust. Hard to deliver but I can >>> offer >>> > tips. Lots of AH size options. >>> > >>> > William >>> > >>> > Miller Solar >>> > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> > 805-438-5600 >>> > www.millersolar.com >>> > CA Lic. 773985 >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >>> On >>> > Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches >>> > Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 2:48 PM >>> > To: RE-wrenches >>> > Cc: jay >>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations >>> > >>> > Hi All >>> > >>> > I have a customer what is set on AGM. >>> > >>> > It been so long since I’ve bought any, wondering if there are any >>> > recommendations? >>> > >>> > The ones I’m looking at: >>> > >>> > Rolls S6-460AGM-RE >>> > >>> > Full river DC-400-6 >>> > >>> > Trojan SAES 06 375 6V >>> > >>> > sun Xtender brand. >>> > >>> > What’s interesting is the trojan has about 3000 cycles vs the others at >>> > around 1250 cycles to 50%. >>> > Im wondering if that is a marketing idea or if its real. >>> > >>> > thanks in advance >>> > >>> > jay >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the >>> > other: >>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >> Office: 707-412-3181 >> Cell: 707-684-0064 >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jan 12 15:55:04 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2025 13:55:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Sun Jan 12 16:13:54 2025 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (solareagle at solareagle.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2025 13:13:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One comment with regard to Rolls AGM’s. I, like yourself, have sold very few AGM’s over the years, preferring lead acid. But I supplied a set of Rolls AGM’s to a client who self installed and didn’t recognize the need for a minimum 85a charge. His inverter/pv combination was unable to supply that and the batteries sulphated within months to an unrecoverable state. $20k down the drain. Most other AGM’s get by with around 50a charge. Ron > On Jan 12, 2025, at 12:55 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > You guys are making my point. > Melting the cases is not a fire. And every melted agm case is due to incorrect charging mechanisms. > > But there have been some cases on this site of catastrophic lithium failures. > > I am starting to see people asking about fires and lithium. > > These batteries are in the house. Not my design and not an easy fix to move them. > > Thanks again > > Jay > > > >> On Jan 12, 2025, at 10:52 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>  >> I had the exact same thing happen(even down to the crowbar) with the only set of full river 400 6's I've ever installed. I personally lean away from agm though we've had pretty good luck with the Outback and Northstar PLR platform over the year.. >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 12, 2025, 9:39 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> The only thermal runaway event I've ever seen, was with AGM in an over insulated battery box. Got so hot that the cases fused to each other, and we had to pry the batteries apart with a crow bar. She wants ZERO risk of fire? She needs to live in a concrete bunker with no electricity at all. Every electrical connection, every outlet, every appliance has a risk of fire. Period. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> On 1/12/2025 9:39 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> I hate to be the one to say it but LFP has arguably less fire risk than agm. A short circuit in an agm could be disastrous and AGM is not necessarily any safer or less prone to thermal runaway events than modern LFP. I'd recommend a cobalt free LFP like homegrid, simpliphi, or midnite if it were me.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 3:38 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> I was going to try and steer her towards lithium but she wants zero, absolutely zero chance of fire, so no lithium. >>>>> >>>>> great batteries though >>>>> >>>>> jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:35 PM, MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> 30KWH of LFP from discover energy, fits in one enclosure, around $14000.00 >>>>>> Enclosure is indoor/outdoor rated. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://discoverenergysys.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount >>>>>> https://discoverenergysys.com/products/accessories/slimline-enclosure >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 3:31 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>> HI Willam >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for the input. >>>>>>> I didn’t know that trojan was sold, and from what you say, yeah scratch them off. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It’s currently at 30kwh. And thats probably a good size. >>>>>>> As always, cost and time is a factor. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I’ll check the others out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> jay >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:17 PM, William Miller > wrote: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Jay: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > What AH or Kwh level are you looking for? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Trojan was acquired by another company a few years ago and quality had gone >>>>>>> > downhill. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Rolls is very sensitive to high temperatures. They will deny a warranty >>>>>>> > claim if all of your parameters are not exactly right. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > For larger AH systems: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I like the Full River DC-400-2. You might be able to do a one string >>>>>>> > installation. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Unigy II is a great system. Very robust. Hard to deliver but I can offer >>>>>>> > tips. Lots of AH size options. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > William >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Miller Solar >>>>>>> > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>>>>> > 805-438-5600 >>>>>>> > www.millersolar.com >>>>>>> > CA Lic. 773985 >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On >>>>>>> > Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches >>>>>>> > Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 2:48 PM >>>>>>> > To: RE-wrenches >>>>>>> > Cc: jay >>>>>>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Hi All >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I have a customer what is set on AGM. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > It been so long since I’ve bought any, wondering if there are any >>>>>>> > recommendations? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > The ones I’m looking at: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Rolls S6-460AGM-RE >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Full river DC-400-6 >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Trojan SAES 06 375 6V >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > sun Xtender brand. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > What’s interesting is the trojan has about 3000 cycles vs the others at >>>>>>> > around 1250 cycles to 50%. >>>>>>> > Im wondering if that is a marketing idea or if its real. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > thanks in advance >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > jay >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >>>>>>> > other: >>>>>>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>>>>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>>>>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Sun Jan 12 16:18:45 2025 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2025 13:18:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A81EAFF-6067-40A5-AA14-8984EEB53914@villagepowerdesign.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Jan 12 16:33:52 2025 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2025 14:33:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: <4A81EAFF-6067-40A5-AA14-8984EEB53914@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <4A81EAFF-6067-40A5-AA14-8984EEB53914@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Jeff, this is the most recent document I have on the topic. The video frame capture pic of the flying garage door hitting the fire chief is pretty dramatic. But yes some incidents were DIY lithium battery banks, some were EVs+chargers, etc. I don't think I've seen an official after-action incident report yet about any UL-9540 compliant lithium battery install causing a fire. https://www.iaff.org/wp-content/uploads/IAFF_DOE_ResidentialESSConsiderations_Final.pdf Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sun, Jan 12, 2025 at 2:20 PM Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Have there been any LFP catastrophic fires that weren’t homemade packs or > bicycle packs without quality BMSs? > > All the fires I ‘ve heard of are LiPo or LiNMC - not LFP. > > Best > > Jeff > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 12, 2025, at 12:55 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > You guys are making my point. > Melting the cases is not a fire. And every melted agm case is due to > incorrect charging mechanisms. > > But there have been some cases on this site of catastrophic lithium > failures. > > I am starting to see people asking about fires and lithium. > > These batteries are in the house. Not my design and not an easy fix to > move them. > > Thanks again > > Jay > > > > On Jan 12, 2025, at 10:52 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I had the exact same thing happen(even down to the crowbar) with the only > set of full river 400 6's I've ever installed. I personally lean away from > agm though we've had pretty good luck with the Outback and Northstar PLR > platform over the year.. > > > > > On Sun, Jan 12, 2025, 9:39 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> The only thermal runaway event I've ever seen, was with AGM in an over >> insulated battery box. Got so hot that the cases fused to each other, and >> we had to pry the batteries apart with a crow bar. She wants ZERO risk of >> fire? She needs to live in a concrete bunker with no electricity at all. >> Every electrical connection, every outlet, every appliance has a risk of >> fire. Period. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 1/12/2025 9:39 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I hate to be the one to say it but LFP has arguably less fire risk than >> agm. A short circuit in an agm could be disastrous and AGM is not >> necessarily any safer or less prone to thermal runaway events than modern >> LFP. I'd recommend a cobalt free LFP like homegrid, simpliphi, or midnite >> if it were me.. >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 3:38 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I was going to try and steer her towards lithium but she wants zero, >>> absolutely zero chance of fire, so no lithium. >>> >>> great batteries though >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:35 PM, MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> 30KWH of LFP from discover energy, fits in one enclosure, around >>> $14000.00 >>> Enclosure is indoor/outdoor rated. >>> >>> https://discoverenergysys.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount >>> https://discoverenergysys.com/products/accessories/slimline-enclosure >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 3:31 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> HI Willam >>>> >>>> Thanks for the input. >>>> I didn’t know that trojan was sold, and from what you say, yeah scratch >>>> them off. >>>> >>>> It’s currently at 30kwh. And thats probably a good size. >>>> As always, cost and time is a factor. >>>> >>>> I’ll check the others out. >>>> >>>> jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:17 PM, William Miller >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Jay: >>>> > >>>> > What AH or Kwh level are you looking for? >>>> > >>>> > Trojan was acquired by another company a few years ago and quality >>>> had gone >>>> > downhill. >>>> > >>>> > Rolls is very sensitive to high temperatures. They will deny a >>>> warranty >>>> > claim if all of your parameters are not exactly right. >>>> > >>>> > For larger AH systems: >>>> > >>>> > I like the Full River DC-400-2. You might be able to do a one string >>>> > installation. >>>> > >>>> > Unigy II is a great system. Very robust. Hard to deliver but I can >>>> offer >>>> > tips. Lots of AH size options. >>>> > >>>> > William >>>> > >>>> > Miller Solar >>>> > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> > 805-438-5600 >>>> > www.millersolar.com >>>> > CA Lic. 773985 >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >>>> On >>>> > Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches >>>> > Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 2:48 PM >>>> > To: RE-wrenches >>>> > Cc: jay >>>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations >>>> > >>>> > Hi All >>>> > >>>> > I have a customer what is set on AGM. >>>> > >>>> > It been so long since I’ve bought any, wondering if there are any >>>> > recommendations? >>>> > >>>> > The ones I’m looking at: >>>> > >>>> > Rolls S6-460AGM-RE >>>> > >>>> > Full river DC-400-6 >>>> > >>>> > Trojan SAES 06 375 6V >>>> > >>>> > sun Xtender brand. >>>> > >>>> > What’s interesting is the trojan has about 3000 cycles vs the others >>>> at >>>> > around 1250 cycles to 50%. >>>> > Im wondering if that is a marketing idea or if its real. >>>> > >>>> > thanks in advance >>>> > >>>> > jay >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> > >>>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the >>>> > other: >>>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> > >>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump3391 at gmail.com Mon Jan 13 08:59:39 2025 From: tump3391 at gmail.com (Blair May) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2025 08:59:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <822F6EE5-7074-4B23-8C2B-E7D41E9A6C7D@gmail.com> Unfortunately for both you and the client, you were not made aware of their limited charging resources. $20 K is quite a few strings of the Surrette L16 AGM. I too am a leadite especially w/ clients who are beginning their experience w/ Off grid living. Refractometer, documentation AND training. For my batteries I have used 2 manufactures in my 30+ years Surrette and the Deka MK series AGM batteries, & both companies are still around to support me & my clients. AGM batteries have served my clients and our home very well. Now a days more solar and less lead is far easier then it was in the 90s. One of the few devices, we as installers have for defense of thermal runaways would be a temp sensor. The few times I have seen issues w/ any battery and thermal runaway is mice have chewed thru the sensor wire or it was thrown in the trash w/ all the rest of BOS that came w/ the inverter or CC. With a FLA battery, is no temp sensor & little to no electrolyte in the cell due to negligence. Surrette in their battery manuals include min & max charge rates which are probably higher then most perhaps due to their materials used in their plate construction. The MK series also have specs (& engineers that are available) included, as for their “MK Space Saver series despite it’s upfront cost its always been great performance. I often see multiple strings far exceeding manu’s recommendations and poor/incorrect battery wiring. Yep big batteries can be a pain to install and using buss bars to wire multiple strings can add cost but amortizing these additional costs over many year battery life cycle its well worth it. These days 99% of the calls I am getting is about problems w/ the lithium products. You folks who are up to date on the lithium products keep us leadites educated cause I / we have yet to drink the koolaid. Tump > On Jan 12, 2025, at 4:13 PM, solareagle--- via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > One comment with regard to Rolls AGM’s. I, like yourself, have sold very few AGM’s over the years, preferring lead acid. But I supplied a set of Rolls AGM’s to a client who self installed and didn’t recognize the need for a minimum 85a charge. His inverter/pv combination was unable to supply that and the batteries sulphated within months to an unrecoverable state. $20k down the drain. Most other AGM’s get by with around 50a charge. > > Ron > >> On Jan 12, 2025, at 12:55 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> You guys are making my point. >> Melting the cases is not a fire. And every melted agm case is due to incorrect charging mechanisms. >> >> But there have been some cases on this site of catastrophic lithium failures. >> >> I am starting to see people asking about fires and lithium. >> >> These batteries are in the house. Not my design and not an easy fix to move them. >> >> Thanks again >> >> Jay >> >> >> >>> On Jan 12, 2025, at 10:52 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> I had the exact same thing happen(even down to the crowbar) with the only set of full river 400 6's I've ever installed. I personally lean away from agm though we've had pretty good luck with the Outback and Northstar PLR platform over the year.. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 12, 2025, 9:39 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> The only thermal runaway event I've ever seen, was with AGM in an over insulated battery box. Got so hot that the cases fused to each other, and we had to pry the batteries apart with a crow bar. She wants ZERO risk of fire? She needs to live in a concrete bunker with no electricity at all. Every electrical connection, every outlet, every appliance has a risk of fire. Period. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> On 1/12/2025 9:39 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> I hate to be the one to say it but LFP has arguably less fire risk than agm. A short circuit in an agm could be disastrous and AGM is not necessarily any safer or less prone to thermal runaway events than modern LFP. I'd recommend a cobalt free LFP like homegrid, simpliphi, or midnite if it were me.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 3:38 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> I was going to try and steer her towards lithium but she wants zero, absolutely zero chance of fire, so no lithium. >>>> >>>> great batteries though >>>> >>>> jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:35 PM, MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> 30KWH of LFP from discover energy, fits in one enclosure, around $14000.00 >>>>> Enclosure is indoor/outdoor rated. >>>>> >>>>> https://discoverenergysys.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount >>>>> https://discoverenergysys.com/products/accessories/slimline-enclosure >>>>> On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 3:31 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> HI Willam >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the input. >>>>> I didn’t know that trojan was sold, and from what you say, yeah scratch them off. >>>>> >>>>> It’s currently at 30kwh. And thats probably a good size. >>>>> As always, cost and time is a factor. >>>>> >>>>> I’ll check the others out. >>>>> >>>>> jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:17 PM, William Miller > wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Jay: >>>>> > >>>>> > What AH or Kwh level are you looking for? >>>>> > >>>>> > Trojan was acquired by another company a few years ago and quality had gone >>>>> > downhill. >>>>> > >>>>> > Rolls is very sensitive to high temperatures. They will deny a warranty >>>>> > claim if all of your parameters are not exactly right. >>>>> > >>>>> > For larger AH systems: >>>>> > >>>>> > I like the Full River DC-400-2. You might be able to do a one string >>>>> > installation. >>>>> > >>>>> > Unigy II is a great system. Very robust. Hard to deliver but I can offer >>>>> > tips. Lots of AH size options. >>>>> > >>>>> > William >>>>> > >>>>> > Miller Solar >>>>> > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>>> > 805-438-5600 >>>>> > www.millersolar.com >>>>> > CA Lic. 773985 >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>> > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On >>>>> > Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches >>>>> > Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 2:48 PM >>>>> > To: RE-wrenches >>>>> > Cc: jay >>>>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations >>>>> > >>>>> > Hi All >>>>> > >>>>> > I have a customer what is set on AGM. >>>>> > >>>>> > It been so long since I’ve bought any, wondering if there are any >>>>> > recommendations? >>>>> > >>>>> > The ones I’m looking at: >>>>> > >>>>> > Rolls S6-460AGM-RE >>>>> > >>>>> > Full river DC-400-6 >>>>> > >>>>> > Trojan SAES 06 375 6V >>>>> > >>>>> > sun Xtender brand. >>>>> > >>>>> > What’s interesting is the trojan has about 3000 cycles vs the others at >>>>> > around 1250 cycles to 50%. >>>>> > Im wondering if that is a marketing idea or if its real. >>>>> > >>>>> > thanks in advance >>>>> > >>>>> > jay >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> > >>>>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >>>>> > other: >>>>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> > >>>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>>>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>>>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > "We must all learn to live together as brothers, or we all will perish as fools." MLK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Mon Jan 13 11:59:45 2025 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2025 16:59:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 13 YR Old Modules with cracking backsheets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi All, We have discovered quite a few modules at a particular site that are showing cracking in the back sheets. It appears these modules are not underperforming yet, but we assume it's a matter of time before they all water and start causing the glass to shatter. Some of the modules at this site are at that shattered glass stage. I'm assuming we should thermal image and keep an eye on potential hotspots, but any other advice would be great to hear. Full removal isn't out of the question, but this is about 40% of a 1MW rooftop system. [cid:image002.jpg at 01DB65B4.9FE0A560] David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems 917-848-0215 718-389-1545 dbuckner at solaresystems.com www.solaresystems.com 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 The information contained in this email message, including any attached files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. 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Name: image949701.png Type: image/png Size: 608 bytes Desc: image949701.png URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jan 13 12:17:19 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2025 09:17:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: <822F6EE5-7074-4B23-8C2B-E7D41E9A6C7D@gmail.com> References: <822F6EE5-7074-4B23-8C2B-E7D41E9A6C7D@gmail.com> Message-ID: We started installing Powerwalls in 2017, so it's been a while since we've bought AGMs except for system maintenance purposes. That said, I'll second William Miller's note that Deka Unigy II AGMs are very robust. Most of our AGM systems from that 7+ year old timeframe (US Battery and Fullrivers, mostly) need battery replacements but we have one 12 year old system with these Unigy II AGMs that is running strong as far as I can tell. I think Unigy batteries were used by cell phone station providers to provide backup, so you can imagine the importance of having top notch reliability. That said, I recall Unigy being very expensive and also very heavy. August On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 5:59 AM Blair May via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Unfortunately for both you and the client, you were not made aware of > their limited charging resources. $20 K is quite a few strings of the > Surrette L16 AGM. I too am a leadite especially w/ clients who are > beginning their experience w/ Off grid living. Refractometer, > documentation AND training. For my batteries I have used 2 manufactures in > my 30+ years Surrette and the Deka MK series AGM batteries, & both > companies are still around to support me & my clients. AGM batteries have > served my clients and our home very well. Now a days more solar and less > lead is far easier then it was in the 90s. One of the few devices, we as > installers have for defense of thermal runaways would be a temp sensor. The > few times I have seen issues w/ any battery and thermal runaway is mice > have chewed thru the sensor wire or it was thrown in the trash w/ all the > rest of BOS that came w/ the inverter or CC. With a FLA battery, is no temp > sensor & little to no electrolyte in the cell due to negligence. Surrette > in their battery manuals include min & max charge rates which are probably > higher then most perhaps due to their materials used in their plate > construction. The MK series also have specs (& engineers that are > available) included, as for their “MK Space Saver series despite it’s > upfront cost its always been great performance. > I often see multiple strings far exceeding manu’s recommendations and > poor/incorrect battery wiring. Yep big batteries can be a pain to install > and using buss bars to wire multiple strings can add cost but amortizing > these additional costs over many year battery life cycle its well worth it. > These days 99% of the calls I am getting is about problems w/ the lithium > products. You folks who are up to date on the lithium products keep us > leadites educated cause I / we have yet to drink the koolaid. Tump > > On Jan 12, 2025, at 4:13 PM, solareagle--- via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > One comment with regard to Rolls AGM’s. I, like yourself, have sold very > few AGM’s over the years, preferring lead acid. But I supplied a set of > Rolls AGM’s to a client who self installed and didn’t recognize the need > for a minimum 85a charge. His inverter/pv combination was unable to supply > that and the batteries sulphated within months to an unrecoverable state. > $20k down the drain. Most other AGM’s get by with around 50a charge. > > Ron > > On Jan 12, 2025, at 12:55 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > You guys are making my point. > Melting the cases is not a fire. And every melted agm case is due to > incorrect charging mechanisms. > > But there have been some cases on this site of catastrophic lithium > failures. > > I am starting to see people asking about fires and lithium. > > These batteries are in the house. Not my design and not an easy fix to > move them. > > Thanks again > > Jay > > > > On Jan 12, 2025, at 10:52 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I had the exact same thing happen(even down to the crowbar) with the only > set of full river 400 6's I've ever installed. I personally lean away from > agm though we've had pretty good luck with the Outback and Northstar PLR > platform over the year.. > > > > > On Sun, Jan 12, 2025, 9:39 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> The only thermal runaway event I've ever seen, was with AGM in an over >> insulated battery box. Got so hot that the cases fused to each other, and >> we had to pry the batteries apart with a crow bar. She wants ZERO risk of >> fire? She needs to live in a concrete bunker with no electricity at all. >> Every electrical connection, every outlet, every appliance has a risk of >> fire. Period. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 1/12/2025 9:39 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I hate to be the one to say it but LFP has arguably less fire risk than >> agm. A short circuit in an agm could be disastrous and AGM is not >> necessarily any safer or less prone to thermal runaway events than modern >> LFP. I'd recommend a cobalt free LFP like homegrid, simpliphi, or midnite >> if it were me.. >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 3:38 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I was going to try and steer her towards lithium but she wants zero, >>> absolutely zero chance of fire, so no lithium. >>> >>> great batteries though >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:35 PM, MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> 30KWH of LFP from discover energy, fits in one enclosure, around >>> $14000.00 >>> Enclosure is indoor/outdoor rated. >>> >>> https://discoverenergysys.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount >>> https://discoverenergysys.com/products/accessories/slimline-enclosure >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 3:31 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> HI Willam >>>> >>>> Thanks for the input. >>>> I didn’t know that trojan was sold, and from what you say, yeah scratch >>>> them off. >>>> >>>> It’s currently at 30kwh. And thats probably a good size. >>>> As always, cost and time is a factor. >>>> >>>> I’ll check the others out. >>>> >>>> jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:17 PM, William Miller >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Jay: >>>> > >>>> > What AH or Kwh level are you looking for? >>>> > >>>> > Trojan was acquired by another company a few years ago and quality >>>> had gone >>>> > downhill. >>>> > >>>> > Rolls is very sensitive to high temperatures. They will deny a >>>> warranty >>>> > claim if all of your parameters are not exactly right. >>>> > >>>> > For larger AH systems: >>>> > >>>> > I like the Full River DC-400-2. You might be able to do a one string >>>> > installation. >>>> > >>>> > Unigy II is a great system. Very robust. Hard to deliver but I can >>>> offer >>>> > tips. Lots of AH size options. >>>> > >>>> > William >>>> > >>>> > Miller Solar >>>> > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> > 805-438-5600 >>>> > www.millersolar.com >>>> > CA Lic. 773985 >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >>>> On >>>> > Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches >>>> > Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 2:48 PM >>>> > To: RE-wrenches >>>> > Cc: jay >>>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations >>>> > >>>> > Hi All >>>> > >>>> > I have a customer what is set on AGM. >>>> > >>>> > It been so long since I’ve bought any, wondering if there are any >>>> > recommendations? >>>> > >>>> > The ones I’m looking at: >>>> > >>>> > Rolls S6-460AGM-RE >>>> > >>>> > Full river DC-400-6 >>>> > >>>> > Trojan SAES 06 375 6V >>>> > >>>> > sun Xtender brand. >>>> > >>>> > What’s interesting is the trojan has about 3000 cycles vs the others >>>> at >>>> > around 1250 cycles to 50%. >>>> > Im wondering if that is a marketing idea or if its real. >>>> > >>>> > thanks in advance >>>> > >>>> > jay >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> > >>>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the >>>> > other: >>>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> > >>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > "We must all learn to live together as brothers, > or we all will perish as fools." > MLK > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Mon Jan 13 12:40:40 2025 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2025 09:40:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <822F6EE5-7074-4B23-8C2B-E7D41E9A6C7D@gmail.com> Message-ID: The disparity in cycle life can sometimes be due to different test standards for cycle life evaluation. I'm familiar with three standards that are commonly used by manufacturers: 1. IEC 61427 2. IEC 60896-2 3. BCIS-06 The IEC 61427 standard is specifically for Solar PV applications. Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager 250.703.6004 eric at vecoop.ca 888.386.0116 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 viridiansolar.ca Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider home. On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 at 09:17, August Goers via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We started installing Powerwalls in 2017, so it's been a while since we've > bought AGMs except for system maintenance purposes. That said, I'll second > William Miller's note that Deka Unigy II AGMs > are very > robust. Most of our AGM systems from that 7+ year old timeframe (US Battery > and Fullrivers, mostly) need battery replacements but we have one 12 year > old system with these Unigy II AGMs that is running strong as far as I can > tell. I think Unigy batteries were used by cell phone station providers to > provide backup, so you can imagine the importance of having top notch > reliability. That said, I recall Unigy being very expensive and also very > heavy. > > August > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 5:59 AM Blair May via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Unfortunately for both you and the client, you were not made aware of >> their limited charging resources. $20 K is quite a few strings of the >> Surrette L16 AGM. I too am a leadite especially w/ clients who are >> beginning their experience w/ Off grid living. Refractometer, >> documentation AND training. For my batteries I have used 2 manufactures in >> my 30+ years Surrette and the Deka MK series AGM batteries, & both >> companies are still around to support me & my clients. AGM batteries have >> served my clients and our home very well. Now a days more solar and less >> lead is far easier then it was in the 90s. One of the few devices, we as >> installers have for defense of thermal runaways would be a temp sensor. The >> few times I have seen issues w/ any battery and thermal runaway is mice >> have chewed thru the sensor wire or it was thrown in the trash w/ all the >> rest of BOS that came w/ the inverter or CC. With a FLA battery, is no temp >> sensor & little to no electrolyte in the cell due to negligence. Surrette >> in their battery manuals include min & max charge rates which are probably >> higher then most perhaps due to their materials used in their plate >> construction. The MK series also have specs (& engineers that are >> available) included, as for their “MK Space Saver series despite it’s >> upfront cost its always been great performance. >> I often see multiple strings far exceeding manu’s recommendations and >> poor/incorrect battery wiring. Yep big batteries can be a pain to install >> and using buss bars to wire multiple strings can add cost but amortizing >> these additional costs over many year battery life cycle its well worth it. >> These days 99% of the calls I am getting is about problems w/ the lithium >> products. You folks who are up to date on the lithium products keep us >> leadites educated cause I / we have yet to drink the koolaid. Tump >> >> On Jan 12, 2025, at 4:13 PM, solareagle--- via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> One comment with regard to Rolls AGM’s. I, like yourself, have sold very >> few AGM’s over the years, preferring lead acid. But I supplied a set of >> Rolls AGM’s to a client who self installed and didn’t recognize the need >> for a minimum 85a charge. His inverter/pv combination was unable to supply >> that and the batteries sulphated within months to an unrecoverable state. >> $20k down the drain. Most other AGM’s get by with around 50a charge. >> >> Ron >> >> On Jan 12, 2025, at 12:55 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> You guys are making my point. >> Melting the cases is not a fire. And every melted agm case is due to >> incorrect charging mechanisms. >> >> But there have been some cases on this site of catastrophic lithium >> failures. >> >> I am starting to see people asking about fires and lithium. >> >> These batteries are in the house. Not my design and not an easy fix to >> move them. >> >> Thanks again >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Jan 12, 2025, at 10:52 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> I had the exact same thing happen(even down to the crowbar) with the only >> set of full river 400 6's I've ever installed. I personally lean away from >> agm though we've had pretty good luck with the Outback and Northstar PLR >> platform over the year.. >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 12, 2025, 9:39 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> The only thermal runaway event I've ever seen, was with AGM in an over >>> insulated battery box. Got so hot that the cases fused to each other, and >>> we had to pry the batteries apart with a crow bar. She wants ZERO risk of >>> fire? She needs to live in a concrete bunker with no electricity at all. >>> Every electrical connection, every outlet, every appliance has a risk of >>> fire. Period. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> On 1/12/2025 9:39 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> I hate to be the one to say it but LFP has arguably less fire risk than >>> agm. A short circuit in an agm could be disastrous and AGM is not >>> necessarily any safer or less prone to thermal runaway events than modern >>> LFP. I'd recommend a cobalt free LFP like homegrid, simpliphi, or midnite >>> if it were me.. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 3:38 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I was going to try and steer her towards lithium but she wants zero, >>>> absolutely zero chance of fire, so no lithium. >>>> >>>> great batteries though >>>> >>>> jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:35 PM, MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> 30KWH of LFP from discover energy, fits in one enclosure, around >>>> $14000.00 >>>> Enclosure is indoor/outdoor rated. >>>> >>>> https://discoverenergysys.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount >>>> https://discoverenergysys.com/products/accessories/slimline-enclosure >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 3:31 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> HI Willam >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the input. >>>>> I didn’t know that trojan was sold, and from what you say, yeah >>>>> scratch them off. >>>>> >>>>> It’s currently at 30kwh. And thats probably a good size. >>>>> As always, cost and time is a factor. >>>>> >>>>> I’ll check the others out. >>>>> >>>>> jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:17 PM, William Miller >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Jay: >>>>> > >>>>> > What AH or Kwh level are you looking for? >>>>> > >>>>> > Trojan was acquired by another company a few years ago and quality >>>>> had gone >>>>> > downhill. >>>>> > >>>>> > Rolls is very sensitive to high temperatures. They will deny a >>>>> warranty >>>>> > claim if all of your parameters are not exactly right. >>>>> > >>>>> > For larger AH systems: >>>>> > >>>>> > I like the Full River DC-400-2. You might be able to do a one string >>>>> > installation. >>>>> > >>>>> > Unigy II is a great system. Very robust. Hard to deliver but I can >>>>> offer >>>>> > tips. Lots of AH size options. >>>>> > >>>>> > William >>>>> > >>>>> > Miller Solar >>>>> > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>>> > 805-438-5600 >>>>> > www.millersolar.com >>>>> > CA Lic. 773985 >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>> > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >>>>> On >>>>> > Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches >>>>> > Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 2:48 PM >>>>> > To: RE-wrenches >>>>> > Cc: jay >>>>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations >>>>> > >>>>> > Hi All >>>>> > >>>>> > I have a customer what is set on AGM. >>>>> > >>>>> > It been so long since I’ve bought any, wondering if there are any >>>>> > recommendations? >>>>> > >>>>> > The ones I’m looking at: >>>>> > >>>>> > Rolls S6-460AGM-RE >>>>> > >>>>> > Full river DC-400-6 >>>>> > >>>>> > Trojan SAES 06 375 6V >>>>> > >>>>> > sun Xtender brand. >>>>> > >>>>> > What’s interesting is the trojan has about 3000 cycles vs the others >>>>> at >>>>> > around 1250 cycles to 50%. >>>>> > Im wondering if that is a marketing idea or if its real. >>>>> > >>>>> > thanks in advance >>>>> > >>>>> > jay >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> > >>>>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>> try the >>>>> > other: >>>>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> > >>>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Michael D Nelson >>>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "We must all learn to live together as brothers, >> or we all will perish as fools." >> MLK >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From George.McClellan at recgroup.com Mon Jan 13 13:06:04 2025 From: George.McClellan at recgroup.com (George McClellan) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2025 18:06:04 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 13 YR Old Modules with cracking backsheets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good morning – this will probably start showing up as ground fault issues due to current leakage. You may want to identify the cracked backsheet modules and isolate them from the string (bypass or jumper the module). This would probably be classified as a materials and workmanship defect and that part of your warranty may have expired. George McClellan | Senior Manager, Technical Sales | REC Americas LLC 735 Tank Farm Rd Ste 130 | San Luis Obispo, CA |93401 Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com [cid:image001.jpg at 01DB65A2.BED50360] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of David Buckner via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, January 13, 2025 9:00 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: David Buckner Subject: [RE-wrenches] 13 YR Old Modules with cracking backsheets Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments. Hi All, We have discovered quite a few modules at a particular site that are showing cracking in the back sheets. It appears these modules are not underperforming yet, but we assume it’s a matter of time before they all water and start causing the glass to shatter. Some of the modules at this site are at that shattered glass stage. I’m assuming we should thermal image and keep an eye on potential hotspots, but any other advice would be great to hear. Full removal isn’t out of the question, but this is about 40% of a 1MW rooftop system. [cid:image002.jpg at 01DB65A2.BED50360] [cid:image003.png at 01DB65A2.BED50360] David Buckner​​​​ President Solar Energy Systems [cid:image004.png at 01DB65A2.BED50360] 917-848-0215 [cid:image005.png at 01DB65A2.BED50360] 718-389-1545 [cid:image006.png at 01DB65A2.BED50360] dbuckner at solaresystems.com [cid:image007.png at 01DB65A2.BED50360] www.solaresystems.com [cid:image008.png at 01DB65A2.BED50360] 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 The information contained in this email message, including any attached files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. 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Name: image008.png Type: image/png Size: 608 bytes Desc: image008.png URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon Jan 13 14:02:33 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2025 11:02:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <822F6EE5-7074-4B23-8C2B-E7D41E9A6C7D@gmail.com> Message-ID: What I noticed over the years was that batteries made by East Penn, including the Unigy series, both Unigy I and Unigy II, are that they last just as long as they are expected to, no more and no less. We saw virtually no warranty issues with any East Penn products. Other similar batteries tended to have various cell and or total battery failures, many at much less than their expected life time. One of the worst was the newer Absolyte GP batteries, as opposed to the older Absolyte II which were better. Brad Bassett On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 9:41 AM Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The disparity in cycle life can sometimes be due to different test > standards for cycle life evaluation. > I'm familiar with three standards that are commonly used by manufacturers: > > 1. IEC 61427 > 2. IEC 60896-2 > 3. BCIS-06 > > The IEC 61427 standard is specifically for Solar PV applications. > > Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager > > 250.703.6004 > eric at vecoop.ca > 888.386.0116 > 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 > viridiansolar.ca > > > > > Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide > services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We > are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich > history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider > home. > > > > On Mon, 13 Jan 2025 at 09:17, August Goers via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We started installing Powerwalls in 2017, so it's been a while since >> we've bought AGMs except for system maintenance purposes. That said, I'll >> second William Miller's note that Deka Unigy II AGMs >> are >> very robust. Most of our AGM systems from that 7+ year old timeframe (US >> Battery and Fullrivers, mostly) need battery replacements but we have one >> 12 year old system with these Unigy II AGMs that is running strong as far >> as I can tell. I think Unigy batteries were used by cell phone station >> providers to provide backup, so you can imagine the importance of having >> top notch reliability. That said, I recall Unigy being very expensive and >> also very heavy. >> >> August >> >> On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 5:59 AM Blair May via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Unfortunately for both you and the client, you were not made aware of >>> their limited charging resources. $20 K is quite a few strings of the >>> Surrette L16 AGM. I too am a leadite especially w/ clients who are >>> beginning their experience w/ Off grid living. Refractometer, >>> documentation AND training. For my batteries I have used 2 manufactures in >>> my 30+ years Surrette and the Deka MK series AGM batteries, & both >>> companies are still around to support me & my clients. AGM batteries have >>> served my clients and our home very well. Now a days more solar and less >>> lead is far easier then it was in the 90s. One of the few devices, we as >>> installers have for defense of thermal runaways would be a temp sensor. The >>> few times I have seen issues w/ any battery and thermal runaway is mice >>> have chewed thru the sensor wire or it was thrown in the trash w/ all the >>> rest of BOS that came w/ the inverter or CC. With a FLA battery, is no temp >>> sensor & little to no electrolyte in the cell due to negligence. Surrette >>> in their battery manuals include min & max charge rates which are probably >>> higher then most perhaps due to their materials used in their plate >>> construction. The MK series also have specs (& engineers that are >>> available) included, as for their “MK Space Saver series despite it’s >>> upfront cost its always been great performance. >>> I often see multiple strings far exceeding manu’s recommendations and >>> poor/incorrect battery wiring. Yep big batteries can be a pain to install >>> and using buss bars to wire multiple strings can add cost but amortizing >>> these additional costs over many year battery life cycle its well worth it. >>> These days 99% of the calls I am getting is about problems w/ the >>> lithium products. You folks who are up to date on the lithium products keep >>> us leadites educated cause I / we have yet to drink the koolaid. Tump >>> >>> On Jan 12, 2025, at 4:13 PM, solareagle--- via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> One comment with regard to Rolls AGM’s. I, like yourself, have sold very >>> few AGM’s over the years, preferring lead acid. But I supplied a set of >>> Rolls AGM’s to a client who self installed and didn’t recognize the need >>> for a minimum 85a charge. His inverter/pv combination was unable to supply >>> that and the batteries sulphated within months to an unrecoverable state. >>> $20k down the drain. Most other AGM’s get by with around 50a charge. >>> >>> Ron >>> >>> On Jan 12, 2025, at 12:55 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> You guys are making my point. >>> Melting the cases is not a fire. And every melted agm case is due to >>> incorrect charging mechanisms. >>> >>> But there have been some cases on this site of catastrophic lithium >>> failures. >>> >>> I am starting to see people asking about fires and lithium. >>> >>> These batteries are in the house. Not my design and not an easy fix to >>> move them. >>> >>> Thanks again >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 12, 2025, at 10:52 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> I had the exact same thing happen(even down to the crowbar) with the >>> only set of full river 400 6's I've ever installed. I personally lean away >>> from agm though we've had pretty good luck with the Outback and Northstar >>> PLR platform over the year.. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 12, 2025, 9:39 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> The only thermal runaway event I've ever seen, was with AGM in an over >>>> insulated battery box. Got so hot that the cases fused to each other, and >>>> we had to pry the batteries apart with a crow bar. She wants ZERO risk of >>>> fire? She needs to live in a concrete bunker with no electricity at all. >>>> Every electrical connection, every outlet, every appliance has a risk of >>>> fire. Period. >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> On 1/12/2025 9:39 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> I hate to be the one to say it but LFP has arguably less fire risk than >>>> agm. A short circuit in an agm could be disastrous and AGM is not >>>> necessarily any safer or less prone to thermal runaway events than modern >>>> LFP. I'd recommend a cobalt free LFP like homegrid, simpliphi, or midnite >>>> if it were me.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 3:38 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I was going to try and steer her towards lithium but she wants zero, >>>>> absolutely zero chance of fire, so no lithium. >>>>> >>>>> great batteries though >>>>> >>>>> jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:35 PM, MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> 30KWH of LFP from discover energy, fits in one enclosure, around >>>>> $14000.00 >>>>> Enclosure is indoor/outdoor rated. >>>>> >>>>> https://discoverenergysys.com/products/lithium-batteries/aes-rackmount >>>>> https://discoverenergysys.com/products/accessories/slimline-enclosure >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 3:31 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> HI Willam >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for the input. >>>>>> I didn’t know that trojan was sold, and from what you say, yeah >>>>>> scratch them off. >>>>>> >>>>>> It’s currently at 30kwh. And thats probably a good size. >>>>>> As always, cost and time is a factor. >>>>>> >>>>>> I’ll check the others out. >>>>>> >>>>>> jay >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > On Jan 11, 2025, at 4:17 PM, William Miller < >>>>>> william at millersolar.com> wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Jay: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > What AH or Kwh level are you looking for? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Trojan was acquired by another company a few years ago and quality >>>>>> had gone >>>>>> > downhill. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Rolls is very sensitive to high temperatures. They will deny a >>>>>> warranty >>>>>> > claim if all of your parameters are not exactly right. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > For larger AH systems: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I like the Full River DC-400-2. You might be able to do a one >>>>>> string >>>>>> > installation. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Unigy II is a great system. Very robust. Hard to deliver but I >>>>>> can offer >>>>>> > tips. Lots of AH size options. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > William >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Miller Solar >>>>>> > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>>>> > 805-438-5600 >>>>>> > www.millersolar.com >>>>>> > CA Lic. 773985 >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>>> > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> > Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches >>>>>> > Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2025 2:48 PM >>>>>> > To: RE-wrenches >>>>>> > Cc: jay >>>>>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Hi All >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I have a customer what is set on AGM. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > It been so long since I’ve bought any, wondering if there are any >>>>>> > recommendations? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The ones I’m looking at: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Rolls S6-460AGM-RE >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Full river DC-400-6 >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Trojan SAES 06 375 6V >>>>>> > >>>>>> > sun Xtender brand. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > What’s interesting is the trojan has about 3000 cycles vs the >>>>>> others at >>>>>> > around 1250 cycles to 50%. >>>>>> > Im wondering if that is a marketing idea or if its real. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > thanks in advance >>>>>> > >>>>>> > jay >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>> try the >>>>>> > other: >>>>>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>>>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>>>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> "We must all learn to live together as brothers, >>> or we all will perish as fools." >>> MLK >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Mon Jan 13 19:05:25 2025 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2025 16:05:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: <7E84311B-8B16-4461-9392-8D09E7E90998@gmail.com> References: <298703EF-F45B-42CC-B9AB-DE64199C5154@gmail.com> <7E84311B-8B16-4461-9392-8D09E7E90998@gmail.com> Message-ID: <26C7D1EA-45F6-4D9B-B6BE-43580D1B5FF0@solareagle.com> New kid on the block is Lead Carbon AGM type batteries that use activated carbon and graphene. I have supplied a few sets of these but because they are so new up here there is no real solid reliability gauge based on user experience. I’d be interested to know if any others have comments regarding these. They claim long cycle life, significantly reduced battery sulfation and rapid charge with a price comparable to other AGM's. Ron > On Jan 11, 2025, at 2:48 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All > > I have a customer what is set on AGM. > > It been so long since I’ve bough any, wondering if there are any recommendations? > > The ones I’m looking at: > > Rolls S6-460AGM-RE > > Full river DC-400-6 > > Trojan SAES 06 375 6V > > sun Xtender brand. > > What’s interesting is the trojan has about 3000 cycles vs the others at around 1250 cycles to 50%. > Im wondering if that is a marketing idea or if its real. > > thanks in advance > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Mon Jan 13 20:00:42 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2025 17:00:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E NEM3.0 Message-ID: <45c800730a870a1cfc5d73b155565df0@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am evaluating my first few bills from PG&E now that I am on the new billing program called NEM3.0. I am finding out some disturbing information. Does anyone on this list desire to start a discussion on the PG&E NEM3.0? Does anyone think we should keep that discussion on this list-serve? William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Mon Jan 13 20:32:00 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2025 17:32:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E NEM3.0 In-Reply-To: <45c800730a870a1cfc5d73b155565df0@mail.gmail.com> References: <45c800730a870a1cfc5d73b155565df0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <608B2375-2B60-4C4B-8E1D-BDD95FB4E313@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jan 13 20:31:38 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2025 17:31:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offsite In-Reply-To: <750E5F16-210D-43C5-AB47-5D0BDE9FF225@gmail.com> References: <750E5F16-210D-43C5-AB47-5D0BDE9FF225@gmail.com> Message-ID: <07df487e12b49c76dba3121ff70392b4@mail.gmail.com> Jay: Noted. Here is a teaser: Before NEM 3.0, as a PG&E customer, I was credited at retail rates for energy export. That value ranged between $0.388 to $0.486 per kWh (yes, these are the electrical rates in California). With NEM 3.0 I am credited at less than $0.01 per kWh. On-line articles predicted NEM3.0 would lower export compensation to about 25% of previous rates but the reality is much more stark. I am being compensated at 2.5% of what I previously received. Also the previous NEM 1.0 and 2.0 allowed for an annual true-up. The new plan requires settling monthly. This issue concerns everyone that sells and installs grid-connected solar because the ripple effect will be catastrophic. Your utility will want to use this as a model. This will kill the grid-connected solar market in California. If the solar market dies in California the economy of scale that keeps this industry going will decrease significantly. I think anyone on this list should be interested in this trend. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, January 13, 2025 5:06 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com *Subject:* Offsite Hi william I would like to know what’s going on. Thx Jay On Jan 13, 2025, at 6:05 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Friends: I am evaluating my first few bills from PG&E now that I am on the new billing program called NEM3.0. I am finding out some disturbing information. Does anyone on this list desire to start a discussion on the PG&E NEM3.0? Does anyone think we should keep that discussion on this list-serve? William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Mon Jan 13 20:59:01 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2025 17:59:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E NEM3.0 In-Reply-To: <608B2375-2B60-4C4B-8E1D-BDD95FB4E313@gmail.com> References: <45c800730a870a1cfc5d73b155565df0@mail.gmail.com> <608B2375-2B60-4C4B-8E1D-BDD95FB4E313@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes count me in On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 5:32 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I say yes please. This is a major change happening and I would like to be > as informed as possible. I understood that the billing change had been > delayed but it sounds like it is now in effect? > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Jan 13, 2025, at 5:05 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > > > I am evaluating my first few bills from PG&E now that I am on the new > billing program called NEM3.0. I am finding out some disturbing > information. Does anyone on this list desire to start a discussion on the > PG&E NEM3.0? Does anyone think we should keep that discussion on this > list-serve? > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jan 13 22:26:30 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2025 19:26:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E NEM3.0 In-Reply-To: References: <45c800730a870a1cfc5d73b155565df0@mail.gmail.com> <608B2375-2B60-4C4B-8E1D-BDD95FB4E313@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yup, for all the PG&E customers that are on 3.0 it will be moving from state to state, already killed Hawaii. On Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 5:59 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yes count me in > > > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 5:32 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I say yes please. This is a major change happening and I would like to be >> as informed as possible. I understood that the billing change had been >> delayed but it sounds like it is now in effect? >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> On Jan 13, 2025, at 5:05 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I am evaluating my first few bills from PG&E now that I am on the new >> billing program called NEM3.0. I am finding out some disturbing >> information. Does anyone on this list desire to start a discussion on the >> PG&E NEM3.0? Does anyone think we should keep that discussion on this >> list-serve? >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 14 00:23:46 2025 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2025 23:23:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E NEM3.0 In-Reply-To: References: <45c800730a870a1cfc5d73b155565df0@mail.gmail.com> <608B2375-2B60-4C4B-8E1D-BDD95FB4E313@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, I am from Minnesota. Our largest utility, Excel Energy, is putting in TOD or smart meters will have something like we will have it in a few years. On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 9:28 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yup, for all the PG&E customers that are on 3.0 it will be moving from > state to state, already killed Hawaii. > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 5:59 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Yes count me in >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 5:32 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I say yes please. This is a major change happening and I would like to >>> be as informed as possible. I understood that the billing change had been >>> delayed but it sounds like it is now in effect? >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>> 707-884-1862 office >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> On Jan 13, 2025, at 5:05 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> I am evaluating my first few bills from PG&E now that I am on the new >>> billing program called NEM3.0. I am finding out some disturbing >>> information. Does anyone on this list desire to start a discussion on the >>> PG&E NEM3.0? Does anyone think we should keep that discussion on this >>> list-serve? >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 14 07:28:03 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 05:28:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E NEM3.0 In-Reply-To: References: <45c800730a870a1cfc5d73b155565df0@mail.gmail.com> <608B2375-2B60-4C4B-8E1D-BDD95FB4E313@gmail.com> Message-ID: We are out of Colorado and I would encourage you to keep the discussion on wrenches because it will trickle our way in some form. Quite a few of our small cooperatives and Xcel are moving to TOU as well. CA is a huge market affecting everyone and driving solar technology as well as utility policy. On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 10:24 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yes, I am from Minnesota. Our largest utility, Excel Energy, is putting in > TOD or smart meters will have something like we will have it in a few > years. > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 9:28 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Yup, for all the PG&E customers that are on 3.0 it will be moving from >> state to state, already killed Hawaii. >> >> On Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 5:59 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Yes count me in >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 5:32 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I say yes please. This is a major change happening and I would like to >>>> be as informed as possible. I understood that the billing change had been >>>> delayed but it sounds like it is now in effect? >>>> >>>> Michael D Nelson >>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 13, 2025, at 5:05 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> Friends: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am evaluating my first few bills from PG&E now that I am on the new >>>> billing program called NEM3.0. I am finding out some disturbing >>>> information. Does anyone on this list desire to start a discussion on the >>>> PG&E NEM3.0? Does anyone think we should keep that discussion on this >>>> list-serve? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jan 14 09:59:57 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 06:59:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E NEM3.0 In-Reply-To: References: <45c800730a870a1cfc5d73b155565df0@mail.gmail.com> <608B2375-2B60-4C4B-8E1D-BDD95FB4E313@gmail.com> Message-ID: I will post a synopsis of the situation a little later today. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 4:30 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We are out of Colorado and I would encourage you to keep the discussion on > wrenches because it will trickle our way in some form. Quite a few of our > small cooperatives and Xcel are moving to TOU as well. CA is a huge market > affecting everyone and driving solar technology as well as utility policy. > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 10:24 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Yes, I am from Minnesota. Our largest utility, Excel Energy, is putting >> in TOD or smart meters will have something like we will have it in a few >> years. >> >> On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 9:28 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Yup, for all the PG&E customers that are on 3.0 it will be moving from >>> state to state, already killed Hawaii. >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 5:59 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes count me in >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 5:32 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I say yes please. This is a major change happening and I would like to >>>>> be as informed as possible. I understood that the billing change had been >>>>> delayed but it sounds like it is now in effect? >>>>> >>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 13, 2025, at 5:05 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> >>>>> Friends: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am evaluating my first few bills from PG&E now that I am on the new >>>>> billing program called NEM3.0. I am finding out some disturbing >>>>> information. Does anyone on this list desire to start a discussion on the >>>>> PG&E NEM3.0? Does anyone think we should keep that discussion on this >>>>> list-serve? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> William Miller >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Miller Solar >>>>> >>>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>>> >>>>> 805-438-5600 >>>>> >>>>> www.millersolar.com >>>>> >>>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Tue Jan 14 10:44:43 2025 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 08:44:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E NEM3.0 In-Reply-To: References: <45c800730a870a1cfc5d73b155565df0@mail.gmail.com> <608B2375-2B60-4C4B-8E1D-BDD95FB4E313@gmail.com> Message-ID: This list focuses primarily on solar and ESS technology and what is happening in California is going to drive that technology to do far more than its current, primary purpose of emergency backup. I live in Montana and it's only a matter of time before our utility adopts some form of time-of-use and our company wishes to be educated and ahead of this curve to offer our clients financially sound, robust, solar and ESS systems to control as much of their own energy production and consumption as possible. As such I approve of this topic of conversation. Sincerely, Sam Haraldson [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jan 14 12:14:07 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 09:14:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E NEM3.0 In-Reply-To: <45c800730a870a1cfc5d73b155565df0@mail.gmail.com> References: <45c800730a870a1cfc5d73b155565df0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3746d7b6e39d84d902e4aa505fa88473@sti.net> Sure count me in ! I like to learn as much as possible of how not to be like California. Most everyone who has left there tells me this also. Northern Nevada is 11.7 cents per KWH and is looking at new transmission lines to be independent of the folks to the west. Avoiding the NEM3.0 is pretty easy with self consumption these days, even in California. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-01-13 5:00 pm, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > Friends: > > I am evaluating my first few bills from PG&E now that I am on the new > billing program called NEM3.0. I am finding out some disturbing > information. Does anyone on this list desire to start a discussion on > the PG&E NEM3.0? Does anyone think we should keep that discussion on > this list-serve? > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [1] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Tue Jan 14 12:28:40 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 09:28:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGM battery recommendations In-Reply-To: <26C7D1EA-45F6-4D9B-B6BE-43580D1B5FF0@solareagle.com> References: <298703EF-F45B-42CC-B9AB-DE64199C5154@gmail.com> <7E84311B-8B16-4461-9392-8D09E7E90998@gmail.com> <26C7D1EA-45F6-4D9B-B6BE-43580D1B5FF0@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Hello Ron, I've got 9 systems that fall under this category. Beginning with the Outback Energycell 200 RE installed back in 2015 to the newest Outback rebranded Northstar Blue batteries. No C/5 charge limitation solved some array expansion issues too. For a while the price per watt hour metric was only about 20% above Trojan RE series. All still performing as expected with the exception of one whose owner disconnected the array to move into a different location for months and never added any generator charge until it was too late. Also the homeowner of the 2015 system aged out and left the home vacant and nobody has let me in to assess so it's definitely possible they are no longer operational. I've been concerned that the extended absorption times required/recommended on the Northstar Blues aren't anywhere near manufacturers recommendations but so far so good. Now with the Midnite Powerflo solutions being $.25 a watt hour and under on the retail level I see no reason to use anything else on my 48v systems. Nick On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 4:06 PM Ron Young via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > New kid on the block is Lead Carbon AGM type batteries that use activated > carbon and graphene. I have supplied a few sets of these but because they > are so new up here there is no real solid reliability gauge based on user > experience. I’d be interested to know if any others have comments regarding > these. They claim long cycle life, significantly reduced battery sulfation > and rapid charge with a price comparable to other AGM's. > > Ron > > > On Jan 11, 2025, at 2:48 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > Hi All > > > > I have a customer what is set on AGM. > > > > It been so long since I’ve bough any, wondering if there are any > recommendations? > > > > The ones I’m looking at: > > > > Rolls S6-460AGM-RE > > > > Full river DC-400-6 > > > > Trojan SAES 06 375 6V > > > > sun Xtender brand. > > > > What’s interesting is the trojan has about 3000 cycles vs the others at > around 1250 cycles to 50%. > > Im wondering if that is a marketing idea or if its real. > > > > thanks in advance > > > > jay > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jan 14 13:58:02 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 10:58:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Overvoltage Troubleshoot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jim: I am familiar with this case having worked with you on it. The client is an off-grid public school and reliability is very important to avoid disruption of curriculum. Various factors (tree cover on the site, maximum needs occurring during winter, proximity to the ocean creating frequent overcast and environmental constraints) will make it extremely difficult to ever provide enough PV to cover the energy budget. Therefore this system will always rely on generator input. If the generator fails power will go out and school is disrupted. The school needs two generators to provide reliable power. I suggest a second, new generator, appropriately sized is the best solution. With a new generator it is unlikely that generator caused problems will continue. At least you can test with a second generator. At the very least, provisions should be made to install a permanent power feed from the parking lot so a portable backup generator can be quickly deployed. With those provisions, a rental generator will allow you to test the inverters with another genset. I am not in favor of rebuilding generators for critical reliability applications unless the mechanical and electrical systems are both rebuilt. Field repairs are typically less reliable than a new unit. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Saturday, January 4, 2025 4:47 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Dana Orzel *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator Overvoltage Troubleshoot I’ve chimed in on this connection before I have an Onan 20 KW an analog unit - 25 years old and I had it completely rebuilt prior to moving to Idaho and then after a couple of years, the voltage got really unstable. I dealt with ASAP they got me a they got me a replacement new not ORM voltage regulator that has been absolutely perfect Here is their phone number these guys were super super helpful. (717) 274-9396 Dana Orzel C: 208.721.7003 E- dana at solarwork.com On Jan 3, 2025, at 1:52 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Here is my two cents I had a similar over voltage. It was caused by the generator. It helped to put a load on the generator, I put on a 500 watt resistance load, it helped but in the end the generator was replaced. Good luck. On Fri, Jan 3, 2025, 8:17 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Hi all, I need some help with a generator overvoltage troubleshoot. I'm working on an outback offgrid system that consists of 2 x Radian GS8048a, 1 x MATE3S controller, 1 x FM 80 charge controller, 1 x 55kw single phase propane AC cummins generator, about 4kw of solar *not sufficient enough to keep up with the load, and 24 x 4v Rolls batteries series/paralleled to make 48v. The generator was rebuilt and the batteries replaced about a year ago and since then, the generator has been faulting due to overvoltage. I had help and first found that the MATE needed calibrating so that was done, but the generator still was faulting. I found changing the AC Input Charging from 30a to 20a seemed to work. I put a power monitor on the generator output and found that, with the AC Input Charging set at 30a, noticed that there was a voltage spike up to 300+V at about a 70a draw. The generator company put a load bank on and verified the generator may not be at fault and the problem is after the generator. Has anyone encountered a problem like this and have suggestions? I've attached a PDF with a timeline of what I've done for troubleshooting so far. -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuartkriendler at gmail.com Tue Jan 14 14:09:13 2025 From: stuartkriendler at gmail.com (Stuart Kriendler) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 15:09:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults Message-ID: Good day Wrenches, 2025 looks to be the year for installing more grid tied (GT) battery back up hybrid inverters on new and existing GT PV systems in a whole house backup scenario i.e. Utility - Hybrid Inverter - House Loads With these newer GT hybrids so 'sensitive', any fault on the PV side can cause them to shut down, thus stopping power to the house. To minimise this it seems sensible to add an ATS to the system such that if/when the hybrid faults, the ATS w switch to grid power, bypass the hybrid, and power the house. This could save an emergency truck roll or late night phone call for installers. Anyone have experience on good value-for-money Listed automatic transfer switches that would do the job, 200A, 120/240V? Two name brand options that came up on the less expensive end of the spectrum are: - Generac RXSW200A3 (https://www.generac.com/residential-products/standby-generator-transfer-switches/automatic/rxsw200a3/) - Kohler 200-amp, Service Entrance RXT ATS | RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4 ( https://www.kohler.com/content/dam/kohler-com-NA/Lifestyle/PDF/PDF-g11152.pdf ) However, they each say their ATSs must be used with the corresponding generator. I would imagine a simple 'grid sense' functionality would mean that if the hybrid's output was connected to the Grid/Normal lugs and the grid was connected to the Gene/Backup lugs in the ATS it should work. However I don't want to end up with an expensive surprise in a relatively remote location where I operate! Would appreciate any feedback with experience with the above or other ATS models or how people are future proofing for this scenario? To do future maintenance/torque checks etc. in a GT hybrid whole home backup situation, it would be nice to bypass the inverter and keep the house powered for safety and homeowner convenience in general. Thanks and best. Sunniest regards, Stuart 441 599 2105 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jan 14 14:42:29 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 11:42:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Asco and kohler both are good, and have used them on AC coupled systems with great success. Ya l know AC coupled is not the ideal but in retrofitting it's very common unless you also can replace the inverter with something like Solark. On Tue, Jan 14, 2025, 11:10 AM Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Good day Wrenches, > > 2025 looks to be the year for installing more grid tied (GT) battery back > up hybrid inverters on new and existing GT PV systems in a whole house > backup scenario > i.e. Utility - Hybrid Inverter - House Loads > > With these newer GT hybrids so 'sensitive', any fault on the PV side can > cause them to shut down, thus stopping power to the house. > To minimise this it seems sensible to add an ATS to the system such that > if/when the hybrid faults, the ATS w switch to grid power, bypass the > hybrid, and power the house. > This could save an emergency truck roll or late night phone call for > installers. > > Anyone have experience on good value-for-money Listed automatic transfer > switches that would do the job, 200A, 120/240V? > > Two name brand options that came up on the less expensive end of the > spectrum are: > - Generac > RXSW200A3 (https://www.generac.com/residential-products/standby-generator-transfer-switches/automatic/rxsw200a3/) > > - Kohler 200-amp, Service Entrance RXT ATS | RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4 ( > https://www.kohler.com/content/dam/kohler-com-NA/Lifestyle/PDF/PDF-g11152.pdf > ) > > However, they each say their ATSs must be used with the corresponding > generator. > > I would imagine a simple 'grid sense' functionality would mean that if the > hybrid's output was connected to the Grid/Normal lugs and the grid was > connected to the Gene/Backup lugs in the ATS it should work. > However I don't want to end up with an expensive surprise in a relatively > remote location where I operate! > > Would appreciate any feedback with experience with the above or other ATS > models or how people are future proofing for this scenario? > To do future maintenance/torque checks etc. in a GT hybrid whole home > backup situation, it would be nice to bypass the inverter and keep the > house powered for safety and homeowner convenience in general. > > Thanks and best. > > Sunniest regards, > Stuart > 441 599 2105 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jan 14 14:36:16 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 11:36:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9ebc7ad21f806e98d80fe092b2a7e0a6@mail.gmail.com> Stuart: I understand the concern and appreciate the consideration to provide more reliability. The approach you suggested sounds like a band-aid, not a cure. I do not know if this complete shutdown is required by the listing (a feature) or is just a bug. Does anyone have information on this? If it is not required, the manufacturers should certainly correct these problems. This may be a case against All-in-on inverters. If there is a PV arc fault on systems with separate charge controllers the inverter will not curtail operation and it’s pass-through capabilities. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, January 14, 2025 11:09 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Cc:* Stuart Kriendler *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults Good day Wrenches, 2025 looks to be the year for installing more grid tied (GT) battery back up hybrid inverters on new and existing GT PV systems in a whole house backup scenario i.e. Utility - Hybrid Inverter - House Loads With these newer GT hybrids so 'sensitive', any fault on the PV side can cause them to shut down, thus stopping power to the house. To minimise this it seems sensible to add an ATS to the system such that if/when the hybrid faults, the ATS w switch to grid power, bypass the hybrid, and power the house. This could save an emergency truck roll or late night phone call for installers. Anyone have experience on good value-for-money Listed automatic transfer switches that would do the job, 200A, 120/240V? Two name brand options that came up on the less expensive end of the spectrum are: - Generac RXSW200A3 ( https://www.generac.com/residential-products/standby-generator-transfer-switches/automatic/rxsw200a3/ ) - *Kohler 200-amp, Service Entrance RXT ATS | RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4 (* https://www.kohler.com/content/dam/kohler-com-NA/Lifestyle/PDF/PDF-g11152.pdf ) However, they each say their ATSs must be used with the corresponding generator. I would imagine a simple 'grid sense' functionality would mean that if the hybrid's output was connected to the Grid/Normal lugs and the grid was connected to the Gene/Backup lugs in the ATS it should work. However I don't want to end up with an expensive surprise in a relatively remote location where I operate! Would appreciate any feedback with experience with the above or other ATS models or how people are future proofing for this scenario? To do future maintenance/torque checks etc. in a GT hybrid whole home backup situation, it would be nice to bypass the inverter and keep the house powered for safety and homeowner convenience in general. Thanks and best. Sunniest regards, Stuart 441 599 2105 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Jan 14 15:02:05 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 12:02:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Stuart - Many grid tied PV/ESS manufacturers (Enphase, SolarEdge, Franklin, Tesla to name a few) now have a Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) that essentially acts as a smart transfer switch thus eliminating the need for a 3rd party automatic transfer switch. What brands equipment are you looking at? Best, August On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 11:10 AM Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Good day Wrenches, > > 2025 looks to be the year for installing more grid tied (GT) battery back > up hybrid inverters on new and existing GT PV systems in a whole house > backup scenario > i.e. Utility - Hybrid Inverter - House Loads > > With these newer GT hybrids so 'sensitive', any fault on the PV side can > cause them to shut down, thus stopping power to the house. > To minimise this it seems sensible to add an ATS to the system such that > if/when the hybrid faults, the ATS w switch to grid power, bypass the > hybrid, and power the house. > This could save an emergency truck roll or late night phone call for > installers. > > Anyone have experience on good value-for-money Listed automatic transfer > switches that would do the job, 200A, 120/240V? > > Two name brand options that came up on the less expensive end of the > spectrum are: > - Generac > RXSW200A3 (https://www.generac.com/residential-products/standby-generator-transfer-switches/automatic/rxsw200a3/) > > - Kohler 200-amp, Service Entrance RXT ATS | RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4 ( > https://www.kohler.com/content/dam/kohler-com-NA/Lifestyle/PDF/PDF-g11152.pdf > ) > > However, they each say their ATSs must be used with the corresponding > generator. > > I would imagine a simple 'grid sense' functionality would mean that if the > hybrid's output was connected to the Grid/Normal lugs and the grid was > connected to the Gene/Backup lugs in the ATS it should work. > However I don't want to end up with an expensive surprise in a relatively > remote location where I operate! > > Would appreciate any feedback with experience with the above or other ATS > models or how people are future proofing for this scenario? > To do future maintenance/torque checks etc. in a GT hybrid whole home > backup situation, it would be nice to bypass the inverter and keep the > house powered for safety and homeowner convenience in general. > > Thanks and best. > > Sunniest regards, > Stuart > 441 599 2105 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Tue Jan 14 15:12:01 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 12:12:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults In-Reply-To: <9ebc7ad21f806e98d80fe092b2a7e0a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <9ebc7ad21f806e98d80fe092b2a7e0a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I’ve been doing this for a few years now, but not on every install. They’re pretty expensive, more labor, one more component to fail, and takes up significant wall space/aesthetic factor. GENERAC transfer switch requires you to rig a separate 12v power supply, (normally this 12vdc comes from the generator start battery) to triggers transfer you have to trick the control module by shorting “23Transfer” to Ground. Here is an excellent YouTube video demonstration. https://youtu.be/rT_3JYZS9Mg?si=7EarqHXTddLSpKXe KOHLER: use their RDT model ! Don’t use the RXT model, as their RXT really does need a complex computer handshake signal from a true Kohler generator. The _RDT_ is sweet - senses primary versus secondary, and switches back and forth automatically. David Q On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 11:36 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Stuart: > > > > I understand the concern and appreciate the consideration to provide more > reliability. The approach you suggested sounds like a band-aid, not a > cure. > > > > I do not know if this complete shutdown is required by the listing (a > feature) or is just a bug. Does anyone have information on this? If it is > not required, the manufacturers should certainly correct these problems. > > > > This may be a case against All-in-on inverters. If there is a PV arc > fault on systems with separate charge controllers the inverter will not > curtail operation and it’s pass-through capabilities. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 14, 2025 11:09 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Cc:* Stuart Kriendler > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for > maintenance/faults > > > > Good day Wrenches, > > > > 2025 looks to be the year for installing more grid tied (GT) battery back > up hybrid inverters on new and existing GT PV systems in a whole house > backup scenario > > i.e. Utility - Hybrid Inverter - House Loads > > > > With these newer GT hybrids so 'sensitive', any fault on the PV side can > cause them to shut down, thus stopping power to the house. > > To minimise this it seems sensible to add an ATS to the system such that > if/when the hybrid faults, the ATS w switch to grid power, bypass the > hybrid, and power the house. > > This could save an emergency truck roll or late night phone call for > installers. > > > > Anyone have experience on good value-for-money Listed automatic transfer > switches that would do the job, 200A, 120/240V? > > > > Two name brand options that came up on the less expensive end of the > spectrum are: > > - Generac RXSW200A3 ( > https://www.generac.com/residential-products/standby-generator-transfer-switches/automatic/rxsw200a3/ > ) > > > > - *Kohler 200-amp, Service Entrance RXT ATS | RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4 (* > https://www.kohler.com/content/dam/kohler-com-NA/Lifestyle/PDF/PDF-g11152.pdf > ) > > > > However, they each say their ATSs must be used with the corresponding > generator. > > > > I would imagine a simple 'grid sense' functionality would mean that if the > hybrid's output was connected to the Grid/Normal lugs and the grid was > connected to the Gene/Backup lugs in the ATS it should work. > > However I don't want to end up with an expensive surprise in a relatively > remote location where I operate! > > > > Would appreciate any feedback with experience with the above or other ATS > models or how people are future proofing for this scenario? > To do future maintenance/torque checks etc. in a GT hybrid whole home > backup situation, it would be nice to bypass the inverter and keep the > house powered for safety and homeowner convenience in general. > > > > Thanks and best. > > > > Sunniest regards, > > Stuart > > 441 599 2105 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Tue Jan 14 15:17:10 2025 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 15:17:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults In-Reply-To: References: <9ebc7ad21f806e98d80fe092b2a7e0a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: We tend to do this on every install in the Bahamas, except that we install a manual transfer switch instead of an automatic one. It's a bit of a (minor) pain for the customer, but a very reasonably priced add on as "emergency" backup. We haven't had any trouble selling the logic of it to the client, either Daryl On Tue, Jan 14, 2025, 3:13 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I’ve been doing this for a few years now, but not on every install. > They’re pretty expensive, more labor, one more component to fail, and takes > up significant wall space/aesthetic factor. > GENERAC transfer switch requires you to rig a separate 12v power > supply, (normally this 12vdc comes from the generator start battery) to > triggers transfer you have to trick the control module by shorting > “23Transfer” to Ground. Here is an excellent YouTube video demonstration. > https://youtu.be/rT_3JYZS9Mg?si=7EarqHXTddLSpKXe > KOHLER: use their RDT model ! Don’t use the RXT model, as their RXT > really does need a complex computer handshake signal from a true Kohler > generator. The _RDT_ is sweet - senses primary versus secondary, and > switches back and forth automatically. > David Q > > > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 11:36 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Stuart: >> >> >> >> I understand the concern and appreciate the consideration to provide more >> reliability. The approach you suggested sounds like a band-aid, not a >> cure. >> >> >> >> I do not know if this complete shutdown is required by the listing (a >> feature) or is just a bug. Does anyone have information on this? If it is >> not required, the manufacturers should certainly correct these problems. >> >> >> >> This may be a case against All-in-on inverters. If there is a PV arc >> fault on systems with separate charge controllers the inverter will not >> curtail operation and it’s pass-through capabilities. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 14, 2025 11:09 AM >> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> *Cc:* Stuart Kriendler >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for >> maintenance/faults >> >> >> >> Good day Wrenches, >> >> >> >> 2025 looks to be the year for installing more grid tied (GT) battery back >> up hybrid inverters on new and existing GT PV systems in a whole house >> backup scenario >> >> i.e. Utility - Hybrid Inverter - House Loads >> >> >> >> With these newer GT hybrids so 'sensitive', any fault on the PV side can >> cause them to shut down, thus stopping power to the house. >> >> To minimise this it seems sensible to add an ATS to the system such that >> if/when the hybrid faults, the ATS w switch to grid power, bypass the >> hybrid, and power the house. >> >> This could save an emergency truck roll or late night phone call for >> installers. >> >> >> >> Anyone have experience on good value-for-money Listed automatic transfer >> switches that would do the job, 200A, 120/240V? >> >> >> >> Two name brand options that came up on the less expensive end of the >> spectrum are: >> >> - Generac RXSW200A3 ( >> https://www.generac.com/residential-products/standby-generator-transfer-switches/automatic/rxsw200a3/ >> ) >> >> >> >> - *Kohler 200-amp, Service Entrance RXT ATS | RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4 (* >> https://www.kohler.com/content/dam/kohler-com-NA/Lifestyle/PDF/PDF-g11152.pdf >> ) >> >> >> >> However, they each say their ATSs must be used with the corresponding >> generator. >> >> >> >> I would imagine a simple 'grid sense' functionality would mean that if >> the hybrid's output was connected to the Grid/Normal lugs and the grid was >> connected to the Gene/Backup lugs in the ATS it should work. >> >> However I don't want to end up with an expensive surprise in a relatively >> remote location where I operate! >> >> >> >> Would appreciate any feedback with experience with the above or other ATS >> models or how people are future proofing for this scenario? >> To do future maintenance/torque checks etc. in a GT hybrid whole home >> backup situation, it would be nice to bypass the inverter and keep the >> house powered for safety and homeowner convenience in general. >> >> >> >> Thanks and best. >> >> >> >> Sunniest regards, >> >> Stuart >> >> 441 599 2105 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Jan 14 15:24:42 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 13:24:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults In-Reply-To: <9ebc7ad21f806e98d80fe092b2a7e0a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <9ebc7ad21f806e98d80fe092b2a7e0a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3f8e4bfc-b47b-41c5-9de7-748d8f5b7982@solarray.com> I would also add that the Generac ATS is not made for this application, it is made to work with their generators only.  It connects to the generator control board for its voltage sensing, etc.  It can be "hot wired" to work with solar, but I had to add a small battery ( for 12 v power) and a small charger to make it work, and meanwhile Generac is NOT helpful for installers outside their network.  I couldn't even get good info on what the different terminals of the ATS control did. 2nd, I agree with William that AIO inverters are not ready for off grid applications, because of the numerous "safety" features that take out the entire house with any fault.  I think if I did use one for off grid, I'd probably put the array on its own separate charge controller.  AIO is yet another product that seems at first like a good idea, but in terms of reliability for off grid is not.   The touch screen programming of Solark for instance, at first seemed like a huge improvement, but when the inverter shuts off or does other weird things, then you realize that you can't count on it at all.  Too many settings are strangely hidden in other menus, that can completely make the system not behave like it should.  Just shows you how much wisdom folks like Bob Gudgel (RIP) had working on the old Trace stuff. The old SWs mostly did what you expected, and kept us in business all these years. Solark needs a complete redo on their software/ firmware, to be viable for off grid. I'm about to try Midnite's new AIO for a backup situation, so maybe I'll change my mind for their use in off grid applications. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 1/14/2025 12:36 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Stuart: > > I understand the concern and appreciate the consideration to provide > more reliability.  The approach you suggested sounds like a band-aid, > not a cure. > > I do not know if this complete shutdown is required by the listing (a > feature) or is just a bug.  Does anyone have information on this?  If > it is not required, the manufacturers should certainly correct these > problems. > > This may be a case against All-in-on inverters.  If there is a PV arc > fault on systems with separate charge controllers the inverter will > not curtail operation and it’s pass-through capabilities. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 14, 2025 11:09 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Cc:* Stuart Kriendler > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for > maintenance/faults > > Good day Wrenches, > > 2025 looks to be the year for installing more grid tied (GT) battery > back up hybrid inverters on new and existing GT PV systems in a whole > house backup scenario > > i.e. Utility - Hybrid Inverter - House Loads > > With these newer GT hybrids so 'sensitive', any fault on the PV side > can cause them to shut down, thus stopping power to the house. > > To minimise this it seems sensible to add an ATS to the system such > that if/when the hybrid faults, the ATS w switch to grid power, bypass > the hybrid, and power the house. > > This could save an emergency truck roll or late night phone call for > installers. > > Anyone have experience on good value-for-money Listed automatic > transfer switches that would do the job, 200A, 120/240V? > > Two name brand options that came up on the less expensive end of the > spectrum are: > > - Generac > RXSW200A3 (https://www.generac.com/residential-products/standby-generator-transfer-switches/automatic/rxsw200a3/) > > - *Kohler 200-amp, Service Entrance RXT ATS | > RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4 (*https://www.kohler.com/content/dam/kohler-com-NA/Lifestyle/PDF/PDF-g11152.pdf) > > However, they each say their ATSs must be used with the corresponding > generator. > > I would imagine a simple 'grid sense' functionality would mean that if > the hybrid's output was connected to the Grid/Normal lugs and the grid > was connected to the Gene/Backup lugs in the ATS it should work. > > However I don't want to end up with an expensive surprise in a > relatively remote location where I operate! > > Would appreciate any feedback with experience with the above or other > ATS models or how people are future proofing for this scenario? > To do future maintenance/torque checks etc. in a GT hybrid whole home > backup situation, it would be nice to bypass the inverter and keep the > house powered for safety and homeowner convenience in general. > > Thanks and best. > > Sunniest regards, > > Stuart > > 441 599 2105 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atersol at gmail.com Tue Jan 14 16:08:06 2025 From: atersol at gmail.com (Antony Tersol) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 13:08:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E NEM3.0 Message-ID: The official name is no longer NEM3.0. That's the unofficial term. It is no longer "Net Energy Metering", and is officially "Solar Billing Tariff" (SBT). The problem isn't TOU so much as no longer compensating at retail rates for exports. As related above, the compensation is supposed to be at something like $0.05/kWh. A battery is required in order to self-consume the solar, but even that won't allow using summer production to offset winter use. The economics are compromised. A simple solar system covers primarily use when the system is producing. To cover everything else requires adding a battery, which doubles or triples the cost of the system. But more than the economics are affected. The sale becomes much more complicated - it is harder to understand and explain, and unless one knows the details of the client's pattern of use, one cannot confidently predict savings. If the client has provided interval data showing the use hour-by-hour for a year it is possible to model performance (with the right software). To optimize a system you need to run multiple simulations varying the number of modules and battery capacity. According to CalSSA (California Solar and Storage Association), our state's solar lobbying group, 17,000 workers have lost their jobs in the California solar industry, and publishes tracking of solar permits. See attached. There have been a number of bankruptcies of installers, which also impacts the distributors who don't get paid. CalSSA initiated a study with an energy economist to refute the claim that solar has shifted costs onto non-solar utility customers. It is being used in educating legislators, and perhaps will be used in litigation against the Public Utility Commission. Discussion of the study is available at https://mcubedecon.com/2024/11/14/how-californias-rooftop-solar-customers-benefit-other-ratepayers-financially-to-the-tune-of-2-3-billion/#comments Antony Tersol -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot 2025-01-14 12.42.18.png Type: image/png Size: 60331 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stuartkriendler at gmail.com Tue Jan 14 16:19:50 2025 From: stuartkriendler at gmail.com (Stuart Kriendler) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 17:19:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Jerry, very good to know. So the Kohler RXT ATS would automatically switch from Primary to Back up as soon as power is lost of primary? The documentation suggests that it 'must be connected to a generator set equipped with the Kohlerr RDC2 or DC2 generator/transfer switch controller' which made me concerned. AC coupling is going to be very common for us in GT retrofit for sure! I'm loving the MN AIO for its ability to AC couple an existing string/micro inverter's output, as well as expand the system with DC coupling AND have a dedicated gene input (which took the juice of a real crappy old B&G gene set that needs new brushes) AND have another dedicated smart breaker that can control loads based on SoC (or V for lead) via the app. Much appreciated, be great to work with the RXT if it can switch based on not seeing power without the RDC2 module as there are some stock and a supplier when the RXT contactors fail/get sticky, I've heard that can happen on X out of 100. Sunniest regards, Stuart 441 599 2105 On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 at 15:42, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Asco and kohler both are good, and have used them on AC coupled systems > with great success. Ya l know AC coupled is not the ideal but in > retrofitting it's very common unless you also can replace the inverter with > something like Solark. > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2025, 11:10 AM Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Good day Wrenches, >> >> 2025 looks to be the year for installing more grid tied (GT) battery back >> up hybrid inverters on new and existing GT PV systems in a whole house >> backup scenario >> i.e. Utility - Hybrid Inverter - House Loads >> >> With these newer GT hybrids so 'sensitive', any fault on the PV side can >> cause them to shut down, thus stopping power to the house. >> To minimise this it seems sensible to add an ATS to the system such that >> if/when the hybrid faults, the ATS w switch to grid power, bypass the >> hybrid, and power the house. >> This could save an emergency truck roll or late night phone call for >> installers. >> >> Anyone have experience on good value-for-money Listed automatic transfer >> switches that would do the job, 200A, 120/240V? >> >> Two name brand options that came up on the less expensive end of the >> spectrum are: >> - Generac >> RXSW200A3 (https://www.generac.com/residential-products/standby-generator-transfer-switches/automatic/rxsw200a3/) >> >> - Kohler 200-amp, Service Entrance RXT ATS | RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4 ( >> https://www.kohler.com/content/dam/kohler-com-NA/Lifestyle/PDF/PDF-g11152.pdf >> ) >> >> However, they each say their ATSs must be used with the corresponding >> generator. >> >> I would imagine a simple 'grid sense' functionality would mean that if >> the hybrid's output was connected to the Grid/Normal lugs and the grid was >> connected to the Gene/Backup lugs in the ATS it should work. >> However I don't want to end up with an expensive surprise in a relatively >> remote location where I operate! >> >> Would appreciate any feedback with experience with the above or other ATS >> models or how people are future proofing for this scenario? >> To do future maintenance/torque checks etc. in a GT hybrid whole home >> backup situation, it would be nice to bypass the inverter and keep the >> house powered for safety and homeowner convenience in general. >> >> Thanks and best. >> >> Sunniest regards, >> Stuart >> 441 599 2105 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jan 14 16:10:52 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 13:10:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E Nem3 Message-ID: Colleagues: I will be creating a Case Study web-page on this subject. I have found this to be the most efficient way to present an issue to those that are involved, including manufacturers, service providers, and industry colleagues. This prevents me from repeating my story over and over and allows me to easily present documentation. In the meantime, attached is one of the most telling documents that pertains and below are some details. The document outlines the NEM3 rate plan and lists hour-by-hour, month-by-month the rates that PG&E will charge and credit their grid-tie customers under NEM3. Direct your attention to the “Delivered” columns. This is the rates at which export is credited. Note that there are many hours that the utility will credit you zero dollars for the energy you deliver to them. Note also that in September I will be paying up to $3.84/kWh to purchase utility-provided energy. An example of the “net” result of NEM3 billing in my case is this: During the billing period that straddled the end of October and the beginning of November (refer to the attached chart for rates during that period) I exported 666+ kWh to the utility. For my efforts I was rewarded with a whopping credit of $6.41. This is from a non-battery system rated at about 11 kW, STC. In PG&E territory NEM3 will be in effect for all applications received after 4/15/23. For all existing customers, their rates will be pushed to NEM3 after 20 years from date of system commission. The latter case applies to me. These are the early adopters that paid a premium and helped jump-start the industry. I live in an unincorporated area of San Luis Obispo County. Fortunately for me we recently elected a liberal majority on our governing body, a Board of Supervisors. That majority allowed the introduction of an alternative energy provider (3CE Energy) in the unincorporated area after it was rejected for years by the previous conservative majority. With 3CE I have been assured I will return to the retail-for-retail credit on exported energy. My billing went on to the NEM3 rate in September 2024 and transitions to 3CE in late January 2025. This means I will be in NEM3 purgatory for only about 4 months. Others in PG&E territory will not be so lucky. More later. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NEM3 Solar Billing.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 195252 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stuartkriendler at gmail.com Tue Jan 14 16:28:52 2025 From: stuartkriendler at gmail.com (Stuart Kriendler) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 17:28:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Much appreciated August, Yes, that fancy Enphase System Controller is a nice piece of kit, overseen a few of those and it is nice they pass through the grid power if there is an issue, most of the time. ;-) I'm in love with the MN AIO, the build quality is impressive and great value for money, with the CBI breakers and features mentioned earlier etc. all built in. Now seen an engineering sample do the business in an rugged off-grid scenario for a few months and feel confident it will be a great GT hybrid option, one catch is the need for a 3rd party ATS though. (Hoping Midnite will make one of their own in time, as well as a wireway to marry the PowerFlo 16 and AIO, both such nicely built solid equipment). Hopefully the Kohler RXT or Generac can work to keep the ATS cost below $1k! Sunniest regards, Stuart 441 599 2105 On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 at 16:02, August Goers wrote: > Hi Stuart - > > Many grid tied PV/ESS manufacturers (Enphase, SolarEdge, Franklin, Tesla > to name a few) now have a Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) that > essentially acts as a smart transfer switch thus eliminating the need for a > 3rd party automatic transfer switch. What brands equipment are you looking > at? > > Best, August > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 11:10 AM Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Good day Wrenches, >> >> 2025 looks to be the year for installing more grid tied (GT) battery back >> up hybrid inverters on new and existing GT PV systems in a whole house >> backup scenario >> i.e. Utility - Hybrid Inverter - House Loads >> >> With these newer GT hybrids so 'sensitive', any fault on the PV side can >> cause them to shut down, thus stopping power to the house. >> To minimise this it seems sensible to add an ATS to the system such that >> if/when the hybrid faults, the ATS w switch to grid power, bypass the >> hybrid, and power the house. >> This could save an emergency truck roll or late night phone call for >> installers. >> >> Anyone have experience on good value-for-money Listed automatic transfer >> switches that would do the job, 200A, 120/240V? >> >> Two name brand options that came up on the less expensive end of the >> spectrum are: >> - Generac >> RXSW200A3 (https://www.generac.com/residential-products/standby-generator-transfer-switches/automatic/rxsw200a3/) >> >> - Kohler 200-amp, Service Entrance RXT ATS | RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4 ( >> https://www.kohler.com/content/dam/kohler-com-NA/Lifestyle/PDF/PDF-g11152.pdf >> ) >> >> However, they each say their ATSs must be used with the corresponding >> generator. >> >> I would imagine a simple 'grid sense' functionality would mean that if >> the hybrid's output was connected to the Grid/Normal lugs and the grid was >> connected to the Gene/Backup lugs in the ATS it should work. >> However I don't want to end up with an expensive surprise in a relatively >> remote location where I operate! >> >> Would appreciate any feedback with experience with the above or other ATS >> models or how people are future proofing for this scenario? >> To do future maintenance/torque checks etc. in a GT hybrid whole home >> backup situation, it would be nice to bypass the inverter and keep the >> house powered for safety and homeowner convenience in general. >> >> Thanks and best. >> >> Sunniest regards, >> Stuart >> 441 599 2105 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Tue Jan 14 16:49:09 2025 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 21:49:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E Nem3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William - I believe the chart you included is EXPORT rate only. So customer will not PAY > $3/kWh from 6-8 pm in Sep but whatever the TOU rate is as I think NEM3 customers are forced onto TOU - I think somewhere from $0.55-$0.60/kWh. (If they can dump their battery into the grid from 6-8 every evening in Sep, they can bank a lot of credits!) This hour by hour breakdown of export rates (and the fact the chart will change year to year, only get the value for year when interconnection approved) makes accurate calculation of return on investment in the system very difficult.... And the credit amount I believe can only be applied to the energy cost, it cannot offset some other bill categories, like meter charge or distribution I think. Again, making accurate financial calcs very hard... Best - Mike Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America +1 916 918 9412 SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings [cid:image001.jpg at 01DB6692.43BB5350] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2025 2:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E Nem3 Colleagues: I will be creating a Case Study web-page on this subject. I have found this to be the most efficient way to present an issue to those that are involved, including manufacturers, service providers, and industry colleagues. This prevents me from repeating my story over and over and allows me to easily present documentation. In the meantime, attached is one of the most telling documents that pertains and below are some details. The document outlines the NEM3 rate plan and lists hour-by-hour, month-by-month the rates that PG&E will charge and credit their grid-tie customers under NEM3. Direct your attention to the "Delivered" columns. This is the rates at which export is credited. Note that there are many hours that the utility will credit you zero dollars for the energy you deliver to them. Note also that in September I will be paying up to $3.84/kWh to purchase utility-provided energy. An example of the "net" result of NEM3 billing in my case is this: During the billing period that straddled the end of October and the beginning of November (refer to the attached chart for rates during that period) I exported 666+ kWh to the utility. For my efforts I was rewarded with a whopping credit of $6.41. This is from a non-battery system rated at about 11 kW, STC. In PG&E territory NEM3 will be in effect for all applications received after 4/15/23. For all existing customers, their rates will be pushed to NEM3 after 20 years from date of system commission. The latter case applies to me. These are the early adopters that paid a premium and helped jump-start the industry. I live in an unincorporated area of San Luis Obispo County. Fortunately for me we recently elected a liberal majority on our governing body, a Board of Supervisors. That majority allowed the introduction of an alternative energy provider (3CE Energy) in the unincorporated area after it was rejected for years by the previous conservative majority. With 3CE I have been assured I will return to the retail-for-retail credit on exported energy. My billing went on to the NEM3 rate in September 2024 and transitions to 3CE in late January 2025. This means I will be in NEM3 purgatory for only about 4 months. Others in PG&E territory will not be so lucky. More later. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 58870 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Jan 14 16:55:11 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 13:55:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Stuart, Got it, now I see you're working with the MidNite AIO. This ATS topic came up not too long ago and I posted that we used to have success with Briggs & Stratton ATS units back when we were installing SMA Sunny Island systems. The Briggs unit does not need a control from an external source, it just switches over automatically (with a few second delay) once utility power is lost. We never had a single problem with these transfer switches. You might check them out: https://www.nationwidegenerators.com/briggs-stratton-071270-200-amp-se-rated-120-240v-1ph-ats/?srsltid=AfmBOorCds2ktOcsHUf3GWmX5ba70K-ynjOcm1iizzIW6X-9OkSVpfHA I know that Briggs went through a bankruptcy a few years ago, but maybe they're still alive and kicking now. August On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 1:29 PM Stuart Kriendler wrote: > Much appreciated August, > > Yes, that fancy Enphase System Controller is a nice piece of kit, overseen > a few of those and it is nice they pass through the grid power if there is > an issue, most of the time. > ;-) > I'm in love with the MN AIO, the build quality is impressive and great > value for money, with the CBI breakers and features mentioned earlier etc. > all built in. > Now seen an engineering sample do the business in an rugged off-grid > scenario for a few months and feel confident it will be a great GT hybrid > option, one catch is the need for a 3rd party ATS though. > (Hoping Midnite will make one of their own in time, as well as a wireway > to marry the PowerFlo 16 and AIO, both such nicely built solid equipment). > > Hopefully the Kohler RXT or Generac can work to keep the ATS cost below > $1k! > > Sunniest regards, > Stuart > 441 599 2105 > > > On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 at 16:02, August Goers wrote: > >> Hi Stuart - >> >> Many grid tied PV/ESS manufacturers (Enphase, SolarEdge, Franklin, Tesla >> to name a few) now have a Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) that >> essentially acts as a smart transfer switch thus eliminating the need for a >> 3rd party automatic transfer switch. What brands equipment are you looking >> at? >> >> Best, August >> >> On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 11:10 AM Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Good day Wrenches, >>> >>> 2025 looks to be the year for installing more grid tied (GT) battery >>> back up hybrid inverters on new and existing GT PV systems in a whole house >>> backup scenario >>> i.e. Utility - Hybrid Inverter - House Loads >>> >>> With these newer GT hybrids so 'sensitive', any fault on the PV side can >>> cause them to shut down, thus stopping power to the house. >>> To minimise this it seems sensible to add an ATS to the system such that >>> if/when the hybrid faults, the ATS w switch to grid power, bypass the >>> hybrid, and power the house. >>> This could save an emergency truck roll or late night phone call for >>> installers. >>> >>> Anyone have experience on good value-for-money Listed automatic transfer >>> switches that would do the job, 200A, 120/240V? >>> >>> Two name brand options that came up on the less expensive end of the >>> spectrum are: >>> - Generac >>> RXSW200A3 (https://www.generac.com/residential-products/standby-generator-transfer-switches/automatic/rxsw200a3/) >>> >>> - Kohler 200-amp, Service Entrance RXT ATS | RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4 ( >>> https://www.kohler.com/content/dam/kohler-com-NA/Lifestyle/PDF/PDF-g11152.pdf >>> ) >>> >>> However, they each say their ATSs must be used with the corresponding >>> generator. >>> >>> I would imagine a simple 'grid sense' functionality would mean that if >>> the hybrid's output was connected to the Grid/Normal lugs and the grid was >>> connected to the Gene/Backup lugs in the ATS it should work. >>> However I don't want to end up with an expensive surprise in a >>> relatively remote location where I operate! >>> >>> Would appreciate any feedback with experience with the above or other >>> ATS models or how people are future proofing for this scenario? >>> To do future maintenance/torque checks etc. in a GT hybrid whole home >>> backup situation, it would be nice to bypass the inverter and keep the >>> house powered for safety and homeowner convenience in general. >>> >>> Thanks and best. >>> >>> Sunniest regards, >>> Stuart >>> 441 599 2105 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 14 20:02:02 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 18:02:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Stuart, The Kohler RDT switch is a much better switch for what you are doing; it is a power seeking switch with no accessory device communication needed. It is more expensive than the RXT switch because it has its own brain board. A Kohler tech can adjust the delays for you if needed but the defaults are good. We have a few of them out there with no issues. They have them available as service entrance rated/indoor/outdoor etc. Good Luck! On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 2:55 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Stuart, > > Got it, now I see you're working with the MidNite AIO. This ATS topic came > up not too long ago and I posted that we used to have success with Briggs & > Stratton ATS units back when we were installing SMA Sunny Island systems. > The Briggs unit does not need a control from an external source, it just > switches over automatically (with a few second delay) once utility power is > lost. We never had a single problem with these transfer switches. > > You might check them out: > https://www.nationwidegenerators.com/briggs-stratton-071270-200-amp-se-rated-120-240v-1ph-ats/?srsltid=AfmBOorCds2ktOcsHUf3GWmX5ba70K-ynjOcm1iizzIW6X-9OkSVpfHA > > I know that Briggs went through a bankruptcy a few years ago, but maybe > they're still alive and kicking now. > > August > > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 1:29 PM Stuart Kriendler < > stuartkriendler at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Much appreciated August, >> >> Yes, that fancy Enphase System Controller is a nice piece of kit, >> overseen a few of those and it is nice they pass through the grid power if >> there is an issue, most of the time. >> ;-) >> I'm in love with the MN AIO, the build quality is impressive and great >> value for money, with the CBI breakers and features mentioned earlier etc. >> all built in. >> Now seen an engineering sample do the business in an rugged off-grid >> scenario for a few months and feel confident it will be a great GT hybrid >> option, one catch is the need for a 3rd party ATS though. >> (Hoping Midnite will make one of their own in time, as well as a wireway >> to marry the PowerFlo 16 and AIO, both such nicely built solid equipment). >> >> Hopefully the Kohler RXT or Generac can work to keep the ATS cost below >> $1k! >> >> Sunniest regards, >> Stuart >> 441 599 2105 >> >> >> On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 at 16:02, August Goers wrote: >> >>> Hi Stuart - >>> >>> Many grid tied PV/ESS manufacturers (Enphase, SolarEdge, Franklin, Tesla >>> to name a few) now have a Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) that >>> essentially acts as a smart transfer switch thus eliminating the need for a >>> 3rd party automatic transfer switch. What brands equipment are you looking >>> at? >>> >>> Best, August >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 11:10 AM Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Good day Wrenches, >>>> >>>> 2025 looks to be the year for installing more grid tied (GT) battery >>>> back up hybrid inverters on new and existing GT PV systems in a whole house >>>> backup scenario >>>> i.e. Utility - Hybrid Inverter - House Loads >>>> >>>> With these newer GT hybrids so 'sensitive', any fault on the PV side >>>> can cause them to shut down, thus stopping power to the house. >>>> To minimise this it seems sensible to add an ATS to the system such >>>> that if/when the hybrid faults, the ATS w switch to grid power, bypass the >>>> hybrid, and power the house. >>>> This could save an emergency truck roll or late night phone call for >>>> installers. >>>> >>>> Anyone have experience on good value-for-money Listed automatic >>>> transfer switches that would do the job, 200A, 120/240V? >>>> >>>> Two name brand options that came up on the less expensive end of the >>>> spectrum are: >>>> - Generac >>>> RXSW200A3 (https://www.generac.com/residential-products/standby-generator-transfer-switches/automatic/rxsw200a3/) >>>> >>>> - Kohler 200-amp, Service Entrance RXT ATS | RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4 ( >>>> https://www.kohler.com/content/dam/kohler-com-NA/Lifestyle/PDF/PDF-g11152.pdf >>>> ) >>>> >>>> However, they each say their ATSs must be used with the corresponding >>>> generator. >>>> >>>> I would imagine a simple 'grid sense' functionality would mean that if >>>> the hybrid's output was connected to the Grid/Normal lugs and the grid was >>>> connected to the Gene/Backup lugs in the ATS it should work. >>>> However I don't want to end up with an expensive surprise in a >>>> relatively remote location where I operate! >>>> >>>> Would appreciate any feedback with experience with the above or other >>>> ATS models or how people are future proofing for this scenario? >>>> To do future maintenance/torque checks etc. in a GT hybrid whole home >>>> backup situation, it would be nice to bypass the inverter and keep the >>>> house powered for safety and homeowner convenience in general. >>>> >>>> Thanks and best. >>>> >>>> Sunniest regards, >>>> Stuart >>>> 441 599 2105 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at evcl.com Wed Jan 15 01:10:48 2025 From: david at evcl.com (David Coale) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 22:10:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Obscure PG&E NEM 3 question for CA Wrenchers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <682CC191-85F1-4F8A-9B53-57D539E13A0B@evcl.com> This is an obscure PG&E NEM 3 related question for the California Wrenchers, since no one out side CA - PG&E land might be able to answer this. I have a client with a 25 year old grid-tied system. When PG&E went to smart meters they declined (worried about EMF) and have been able to hold on to their old mechanical meter and the old billing. Now they want to upgrade to a new system as they are electrifying their home. Does anyone know if they will still be able to hold on to their old meter and old billing? I am guessing not and they just got lucky that PG&E has not forced them to get a new smart meter. Seems like they found a loophole and did not really realize it. Thanks, David From william at millersolar.com Wed Jan 15 01:36:19 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2025 22:36:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Obscure PG&E NEM 3 question for CA Wrenchers In-Reply-To: <682CC191-85F1-4F8A-9B53-57D539E13A0B@evcl.com> References: <682CC191-85F1-4F8A-9B53-57D539E13A0B@evcl.com> Message-ID: David: I suspect it will be sooner rather than later the client will have to accept the NEM3 rates and a Smart meter. NEM3 is a time of use rate (metered down to the hour for export) and you can't do that with a mechanical meter. I imagine the concern is about RF data transmission. They may be able to request a meter that does not connect wirelessly to the utility for meter reading purposes. This is pure speculation on my part. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Coale via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2025 10:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: David Coale Subject: [RE-wrenches] Obscure PG&E NEM 3 question for CA Wrenchers This is an obscure PG&E NEM 3 related question for the California Wrenchers, since no one out side CA - PG&E land might be able to answer this. I have a client with a 25 year old grid-tied system. When PG&E went to smart meters they declined (worried about EMF) and have been able to hold on to their old mechanical meter and the old billing. Now they want to upgrade to a new system as they are electrifying their home. Does anyone know if they will still be able to hold on to their old meter and old billing? I am guessing not and they just got lucky that PG&E has not forced them to get a new smart meter. Seems like they found a loophole and did not really realize it. Thanks, David _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Jan 15 10:45:36 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2025 07:45:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Obscure PG&E NEM 3 question for CA Wrenchers In-Reply-To: References: <682CC191-85F1-4F8A-9B53-57D539E13A0B@evcl.com> Message-ID: Years ago I had a customer who was dead set against a Smart meter. PGE fought them, but the customer was insistent. There is a way, but PGE charged an additional fee to keep the mechanical disc style meter, because they have to pay an employee meter reader. With NEM3, PGE is almost certain to replace the meter with a digital meter. the transmitter device can be removed or deenergized. under TOU they have to keep track of Time of day that positive and negative kWh's are registered. On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 10:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > David: > > > > I suspect it will be sooner rather than later the client will have to > accept the NEM3 rates and a Smart meter. NEM3 is a time of use rate > (metered down to the hour for export) and you can't do that with a > mechanical meter. > > > > I imagine the concern is about RF data transmission. They may be able to > request a meter that does not connect wirelessly to the utility for meter > reading purposes. This is pure speculation on my part. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of David Coale via RE-wrenches > Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2025 10:11 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: David Coale > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Obscure PG&E NEM 3 question for CA Wrenchers > > > > This is an obscure PG&E NEM 3 related question for the California > Wrenchers, since no one out side CA - PG&E land might be able to answer > this. > > > > I have a client with a 25 year old grid-tied system. When PG&E went to > smart meters they declined (worried about EMF) and have been able to hold > on to their old mechanical meter and the old billing. > > > > Now they want to upgrade to a new system as they are electrifying their > home. Does anyone know if they will still be able to hold on to their old > meter and old billing? I am guessing not and they just got lucky that PG&E > has not forced them to get a new smart meter. Seems like they found a > loophole and did not really realize it. > > > > Thanks, > > > > David > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 11:07:55 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2025 09:07:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Obscure PG&E NEM 3 question for CA Wrenchers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38FE1845-5E2A-406F-A346-2C98419E6249@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuartkriendler at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 11:49:01 2025 From: stuartkriendler at gmail.com (Stuart Kriendler) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2025 12:49:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Many thanks for that August, I will check out that link in more detail, looking like a good price point, much appreciated for that! Believe it or not, Briggs was bought out by a conglomerate, Japanese I think, and the Briggs brand purchased Simpliphi batteries, so those nice LiFe units are now branded Briggs & Stratton. https://energy.briggsandstratton.com/na/en_us/newsroom/briggs-stratton-acquires-simpliphi-power.html Sunniest regards, Stuart 441 599 2105 On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 at 17:55, August Goers wrote: > Hi Stuart, > > Got it, now I see you're working with the MidNite AIO. This ATS topic came > up not too long ago and I posted that we used to have success with Briggs & > Stratton ATS units back when we were installing SMA Sunny Island systems. > The Briggs unit does not need a control from an external source, it just > switches over automatically (with a few second delay) once utility power is > lost. We never had a single problem with these transfer switches. > > You might check them out: > https://www.nationwidegenerators.com/briggs-stratton-071270-200-amp-se-rated-120-240v-1ph-ats/?srsltid=AfmBOorCds2ktOcsHUf3GWmX5ba70K-ynjOcm1iizzIW6X-9OkSVpfHA > > I know that Briggs went through a bankruptcy a few years ago, but maybe > they're still alive and kicking now. > > August > > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 1:29 PM Stuart Kriendler < > stuartkriendler at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Much appreciated August, >> >> Yes, that fancy Enphase System Controller is a nice piece of kit, >> overseen a few of those and it is nice they pass through the grid power if >> there is an issue, most of the time. >> ;-) >> I'm in love with the MN AIO, the build quality is impressive and great >> value for money, with the CBI breakers and features mentioned earlier etc. >> all built in. >> Now seen an engineering sample do the business in an rugged off-grid >> scenario for a few months and feel confident it will be a great GT hybrid >> option, one catch is the need for a 3rd party ATS though. >> (Hoping Midnite will make one of their own in time, as well as a wireway >> to marry the PowerFlo 16 and AIO, both such nicely built solid equipment). >> >> Hopefully the Kohler RXT or Generac can work to keep the ATS cost below >> $1k! >> >> Sunniest regards, >> Stuart >> 441 599 2105 >> >> >> On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 at 16:02, August Goers wrote: >> >>> Hi Stuart - >>> >>> Many grid tied PV/ESS manufacturers (Enphase, SolarEdge, Franklin, Tesla >>> to name a few) now have a Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) that >>> essentially acts as a smart transfer switch thus eliminating the need for a >>> 3rd party automatic transfer switch. What brands equipment are you looking >>> at? >>> >>> Best, August >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 11:10 AM Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Good day Wrenches, >>>> >>>> 2025 looks to be the year for installing more grid tied (GT) battery >>>> back up hybrid inverters on new and existing GT PV systems in a whole house >>>> backup scenario >>>> i.e. Utility - Hybrid Inverter - House Loads >>>> >>>> With these newer GT hybrids so 'sensitive', any fault on the PV side >>>> can cause them to shut down, thus stopping power to the house. >>>> To minimise this it seems sensible to add an ATS to the system such >>>> that if/when the hybrid faults, the ATS w switch to grid power, bypass the >>>> hybrid, and power the house. >>>> This could save an emergency truck roll or late night phone call for >>>> installers. >>>> >>>> Anyone have experience on good value-for-money Listed automatic >>>> transfer switches that would do the job, 200A, 120/240V? >>>> >>>> Two name brand options that came up on the less expensive end of the >>>> spectrum are: >>>> - Generac >>>> RXSW200A3 (https://www.generac.com/residential-products/standby-generator-transfer-switches/automatic/rxsw200a3/) >>>> >>>> - Kohler 200-amp, Service Entrance RXT ATS | RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4 ( >>>> https://www.kohler.com/content/dam/kohler-com-NA/Lifestyle/PDF/PDF-g11152.pdf >>>> ) >>>> >>>> However, they each say their ATSs must be used with the corresponding >>>> generator. >>>> >>>> I would imagine a simple 'grid sense' functionality would mean that if >>>> the hybrid's output was connected to the Grid/Normal lugs and the grid was >>>> connected to the Gene/Backup lugs in the ATS it should work. >>>> However I don't want to end up with an expensive surprise in a >>>> relatively remote location where I operate! >>>> >>>> Would appreciate any feedback with experience with the above or other >>>> ATS models or how people are future proofing for this scenario? >>>> To do future maintenance/torque checks etc. in a GT hybrid whole home >>>> backup situation, it would be nice to bypass the inverter and keep the >>>> house powered for safety and homeowner convenience in general. >>>> >>>> Thanks and best. >>>> >>>> Sunniest regards, >>>> Stuart >>>> 441 599 2105 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuartkriendler at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 11:50:40 2025 From: stuartkriendler at gmail.com (Stuart Kriendler) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2025 12:50:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for that Mac, very good to know, I have not been able to source and RDT yet, can only find RXTs, will check with my local Kholer tech friend. Cheers! Sunniest regards, Stuart 441 599 2105 On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 at 21:02, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Stuart, > > The Kohler RDT switch is a much better switch for what you are doing; it > is a power seeking switch with no accessory device communication needed. > It is more expensive than the RXT switch because it has its own brain > board. A Kohler tech can adjust the delays for you if needed but the > defaults are good. We have a few of them out there with no issues. They > have them available as service entrance rated/indoor/outdoor etc. > > Good Luck! > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 2:55 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Stuart, >> >> Got it, now I see you're working with the MidNite AIO. This ATS topic >> came up not too long ago and I posted that we used to have success with >> Briggs & Stratton ATS units back when we were installing SMA Sunny Island >> systems. The Briggs unit does not need a control from an external source, >> it just switches over automatically (with a few second delay) once utility >> power is lost. We never had a single problem with these transfer switches. >> >> You might check them out: >> https://www.nationwidegenerators.com/briggs-stratton-071270-200-amp-se-rated-120-240v-1ph-ats/?srsltid=AfmBOorCds2ktOcsHUf3GWmX5ba70K-ynjOcm1iizzIW6X-9OkSVpfHA >> >> I know that Briggs went through a bankruptcy a few years ago, but maybe >> they're still alive and kicking now. >> >> August >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 1:29 PM Stuart Kriendler < >> stuartkriendler at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Much appreciated August, >>> >>> Yes, that fancy Enphase System Controller is a nice piece of kit, >>> overseen a few of those and it is nice they pass through the grid power if >>> there is an issue, most of the time. >>> ;-) >>> I'm in love with the MN AIO, the build quality is impressive and great >>> value for money, with the CBI breakers and features mentioned earlier etc. >>> all built in. >>> Now seen an engineering sample do the business in an rugged off-grid >>> scenario for a few months and feel confident it will be a great GT hybrid >>> option, one catch is the need for a 3rd party ATS though. >>> (Hoping Midnite will make one of their own in time, as well as a wireway >>> to marry the PowerFlo 16 and AIO, both such nicely built solid equipment). >>> >>> Hopefully the Kohler RXT or Generac can work to keep the ATS cost below >>> $1k! >>> >>> Sunniest regards, >>> Stuart >>> 441 599 2105 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 at 16:02, August Goers wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Stuart - >>>> >>>> Many grid tied PV/ESS manufacturers (Enphase, SolarEdge, Franklin, >>>> Tesla to name a few) now have a Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) that >>>> essentially acts as a smart transfer switch thus eliminating the need for a >>>> 3rd party automatic transfer switch. What brands equipment are you looking >>>> at? >>>> >>>> Best, August >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 11:10 AM Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Good day Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> 2025 looks to be the year for installing more grid tied (GT) battery >>>>> back up hybrid inverters on new and existing GT PV systems in a whole house >>>>> backup scenario >>>>> i.e. Utility - Hybrid Inverter - House Loads >>>>> >>>>> With these newer GT hybrids so 'sensitive', any fault on the PV side >>>>> can cause them to shut down, thus stopping power to the house. >>>>> To minimise this it seems sensible to add an ATS to the system such >>>>> that if/when the hybrid faults, the ATS w switch to grid power, bypass the >>>>> hybrid, and power the house. >>>>> This could save an emergency truck roll or late night phone call for >>>>> installers. >>>>> >>>>> Anyone have experience on good value-for-money Listed automatic >>>>> transfer switches that would do the job, 200A, 120/240V? >>>>> >>>>> Two name brand options that came up on the less expensive end of the >>>>> spectrum are: >>>>> - Generac >>>>> RXSW200A3 (https://www.generac.com/residential-products/standby-generator-transfer-switches/automatic/rxsw200a3/) >>>>> >>>>> - Kohler 200-amp, Service Entrance RXT ATS | RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4 ( >>>>> https://www.kohler.com/content/dam/kohler-com-NA/Lifestyle/PDF/PDF-g11152.pdf >>>>> ) >>>>> >>>>> However, they each say their ATSs must be used with the corresponding >>>>> generator. >>>>> >>>>> I would imagine a simple 'grid sense' functionality would mean that if >>>>> the hybrid's output was connected to the Grid/Normal lugs and the grid was >>>>> connected to the Gene/Backup lugs in the ATS it should work. >>>>> However I don't want to end up with an expensive surprise in a >>>>> relatively remote location where I operate! >>>>> >>>>> Would appreciate any feedback with experience with the above or other >>>>> ATS models or how people are future proofing for this scenario? >>>>> To do future maintenance/torque checks etc. in a GT hybrid whole home >>>>> backup situation, it would be nice to bypass the inverter and keep the >>>>> house powered for safety and homeowner convenience in general. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks and best. >>>>> >>>>> Sunniest regards, >>>>> Stuart >>>>> 441 599 2105 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 12:44:07 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2025 10:44:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback GS/FX fan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1CFBC973-5E80-4FB8-BA7F-67AC203A8FD3@gmail.com> HI All Does anyone know to get an aftermarket replacement fan for a outback GS/FX? thanks jay From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 12:52:39 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2025 09:52:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback GS/FX fan In-Reply-To: <1CFBC973-5E80-4FB8-BA7F-67AC203A8FD3@gmail.com> References: <1CFBC973-5E80-4FB8-BA7F-67AC203A8FD3@gmail.com> Message-ID: ZONNA Energy has replacement parts for outback Fun times On Wed, Jan 15, 2025, 9:45 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All > > Does anyone know to get an aftermarket replacement fan for a outback > GS/FX? > > > thanks > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 12:57:53 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2025 10:57:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback GS/FX fan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Wed Jan 15 13:05:13 2025 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2025 12:05:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback GS/FX fan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Little computer fans are as close to a commodity as there in in the electro mechanical world. Hop on Digikey.com and do a parametric search starting with dimensions and voltages and you'll have half a dozen in stock options in a few minutes of searching. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Wed, Jan 15, 2025 at 11:58 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jerry > > I should have clarified they don’t. > Which means probably nobody does. > > But I figure someone has a cross reference for another supplier that can > transfer the connector to. > > Jay > > On Jan 15, 2025, at 10:53 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > ZONNA Energy has replacement parts for outback > Fun times > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2025, 9:45 AM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> HI All >> >> Does anyone know to get an aftermarket replacement fan for a outback >> GS/FX? >> >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jan 15 13:25:37 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2025 11:25:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback GS/FX fan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No one has the fan, I mean any of the usual companies. I did find a picture online that provided me with the specifics to find one from a supply house. For anyone else here it is. ADDA AD1212UB-51F 120mm square 12v .7 amp ball bearing 105 cfm jay > On Jan 15, 2025, at 11:05 AM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Little computer fans are as close to a commodity as there in in the electro mechanical world. > > Hop on Digikey.com and do a parametric search starting with dimensions and voltages and you'll have half a dozen in stock options in a few minutes of searching. > > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2025 at 11:58 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Hi Jerry >> >> I should have clarified they don’t. >> Which means probably nobody does. >> >> But I figure someone has a cross reference for another supplier that can transfer the connector to. >> >> Jay >> >>> On Jan 15, 2025, at 10:53 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> ZONNA Energy has replacement parts for outback >>> Fun times >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2025, 9:45 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> HI All >>>> >>>> Does anyone know to get an aftermarket replacement fan for a outback GS/FX? >>>> >>>> >>>> thanks >>>> >>>> jay >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 16 16:54:25 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2025 14:54:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to record electrical consumption on PV direct pump Message-ID: <52D38700-2874-41A2-8B5C-A9A22D8200F7@gmail.com> HI All, Here is a weird one to me. A buddy works for the forest service and they have an new solar pump without batteries which they want to meter the electrical usage. Offgrid, no cell. Its doesn’t need to be real time, can be just monthly totals. I don’t know where to even look for something like this. thanks in advance jay From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 16 17:08:51 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2025 15:08:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to record electrical consumption on PV direct pump In-Reply-To: <52D38700-2874-41A2-8B5C-A9A22D8200F7@gmail.com> References: <52D38700-2874-41A2-8B5C-A9A22D8200F7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, What is the operating voltage of the pump/controller? Im wondering if the controller manufacturer may have a solution. It may be hard to find something that would tolerate being power cycled every day. On Thu, Jan 16, 2025 at 2:54 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All, > > Here is a weird one to me. > > A buddy works for the forest service and they have an new solar pump > without batteries which they want to meter the electrical usage. > > Offgrid, no cell. Its doesn’t need to be real time, can be just monthly > totals. > > I don’t know where to even look for something like this. > > thanks in advance > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 16 17:10:46 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2025 15:10:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to record electrical consumption on PV direct pump In-Reply-To: References: <52D38700-2874-41A2-8B5C-A9A22D8200F7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good point. It’s a grundfos SQFlex, voc is about 275 max. jay > On Jan 16, 2025, at 3:08 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > What is the operating voltage of the pump/controller? > > Im wondering if the controller manufacturer may have a solution. It may be hard to find something that would tolerate being power cycled every day. > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2025 at 2:54 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> HI All, >> >> Here is a weird one to me. >> >> A buddy works for the forest service and they have an new solar pump without batteries which they want to meter the electrical usage. >> >> Offgrid, no cell. Its doesn’t need to be real time, can be just monthly totals. >> >> I don’t know where to even look for something like this. >> >> thanks in advance >> >> jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 16 17:24:24 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2025 15:24:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to record electrical consumption on PV direct pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41CF74D0-C72A-49B8-BB56-EB144928ACCC@gmail.com> You know I suggested that, and my buddy said, yeah well its the government they want to measure everything. Just wasted money for data no one will ever use or see or need. ugh jay > On Jan 16, 2025, at 3:22 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: > > Jay > > The best way might be to add a water meter and then back calculate the supposed energy needed. > > They know the water volume, head and flow rate. BAM!: Math!! > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > >> On Jan 16, 2025, at 4:11 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Good point. >> >> It’s a grundfos SQFlex, voc is about 275 max. >> >> jay >> >>> On Jan 16, 2025, at 3:08 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >>> >>> Hi Jay, >>> >>> What is the operating voltage of the pump/controller? >>> >>> Im wondering if the controller manufacturer may have a solution. It may be hard to find something that would tolerate being power cycled every day. >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 16, 2025 at 2:54 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> HI All, >>>> >>>> Here is a weird one to me. >>>> >>>> A buddy works for the forest service and they have an new solar pump without batteries which they want to meter the electrical usage. >>>> >>>> Offgrid, no cell. Its doesn’t need to be real time, can be just monthly totals. >>>> >>>> I don’t know where to even look for something like this. >>>> >>>> thanks in advance >>>> >>>> jay >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jan 16 17:24:24 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2025 14:24:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to record electrical consumption on PV direct pump In-Reply-To: <52D38700-2874-41A2-8B5C-A9A22D8200F7@gmail.com> References: <52D38700-2874-41A2-8B5C-A9A22D8200F7@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would measure the water pumped with a simple water meter. You get the important data about water pumping rates and total volume. You can extrapolate energy consumption. Simple installation. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Thu, Jan 16, 2025 at 1:54 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All, > > Here is a weird one to me. > > A buddy works for the forest service and they have an new solar pump > without batteries which they want to meter the electrical usage. > > Offgrid, no cell. Its doesn’t need to be real time, can be just monthly > totals. > > I don’t know where to even look for something like this. > > thanks in advance > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Thu Jan 16 17:38:21 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2025 16:38:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to record electrical consumption on PV direct pump In-Reply-To: <41CF74D0-C72A-49B8-BB56-EB144928ACCC@gmail.com> References: <41CF74D0-C72A-49B8-BB56-EB144928ACCC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <540256B0-3D95-4687-A52D-6A471AA90FD6@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Bullhorn-RM3250-Image.png Type: image/png Size: 43589 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Jan 17 08:03:23 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2025 08:03:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Parts Message-ID: <8ad23399f6c47b54bd7a617777518b85@redwoodalliance.org> Are any boards or other parts for Magnum inverters available now that Magnum has closed its doors. Thanks, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Fri Jan 17 10:01:31 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2025 07:01:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody play around with a Solaredge S1000 Key? Message-ID: Thinking of ordering one from the UK. Curious if anyone has used one and what the limitations are regarding which optimizers it will work on. Appreciate any insights! Sunny Regards, Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC LRT 76, CCB 204937 tyronehouck at gmail.com 541-787-1366 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri Jan 17 10:09:29 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2025 15:09:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody play around with a Solaredge S1000 Key? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting...would I consider converting some inverters over with DC optimizers on the roof? Maybe. Does the RSD capability remain operational? I guess that the essential question: have we taken a RSD device and turned it into simple optimizer? I know there will be million reasons to not do this... [cid:86378349-fd1c-44fa-a2f0-47448fd1419a] ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 17, 2025 9:01 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Tyrone Houck Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody play around with a Solaredge S1000 Key? Thinking of ordering one from the UK. Curious if anyone has used one and what the limitations are regarding which optimizers it will work on. Appreciate any insights! Sunny Regards, Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC LRT 76, CCB 204937 tyronehouck at gmail.com 541-787-1366 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 91131 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Fri Jan 17 10:18:31 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2025 07:18:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody play around with a Solaredge S1000 Key? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My understanding is it disables the safe voltage feature and the rsd capability.. I want to experiment with optimizers and charge controllers in a ground mount setting..not use it for jobs/rooftop installs.. On Fri, Jan 17, 2025, 7:10 AM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Interesting...would I consider converting some inverters over with DC > optimizers on the roof? Maybe. > > Does the RSD capability remain operational? I guess that the essential > question: have we taken a RSD device and turned it into simple optimizer? > > I know there will be million reasons to not do this... > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, January 17, 2025 9:01 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Tyrone Houck > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Anybody play around with a Solaredge S1000 Key? > > Thinking of ordering one from the UK. Curious if anyone has used one and > what the limitations are regarding which optimizers it will work on. > Appreciate any insights! > Sunny Regards, > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > LRT 76, CCB 204937 > tyronehouck at gmail.com > 541-787-1366 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 91131 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stuartkriendler at gmail.com Fri Jan 17 10:28:41 2025 From: stuartkriendler at gmail.com (Stuart Kriendler) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2025 11:28:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Many thanks again Mac and Wrenches, This is now put to bed with confirmation the only listed 200A ATS that will work without a 12V switching controller that I could find around the $1k mark is indeed the Kohler RDT series. (All currently manufactured Generac, Briggs & Stratton and Cummins ATS options require a controller to talk to the same name brand gene to switch/transfer, or a Mcgiver move.) I found a supplier in Florida who gave a slight volume discount and seems solid. Here is a link to the product, pricing, specs and manual through them: https://bnhgenerators.com/product/kohler-200-amp-rdt-ats-rdt-cfnc-0200a-qs7/ And another supplier option with similar pricing, and the 100A version readily available in case helpful: https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Kohler-RDT-CFNC-0200A-QS7/p2202.html Best to all and thanks again. Sunniest regards, Stuart 441 599 2105 On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 at 21:02, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Stuart, > > The Kohler RDT switch is a much better switch for what you are doing; it > is a power seeking switch with no accessory device communication needed. > It is more expensive than the RXT switch because it has its own brain > board. A Kohler tech can adjust the delays for you if needed but the > defaults are good. We have a few of them out there with no issues. They > have them available as service entrance rated/indoor/outdoor etc. > > Good Luck! > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 2:55 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Stuart, >> >> Got it, now I see you're working with the MidNite AIO. This ATS topic >> came up not too long ago and I posted that we used to have success with >> Briggs & Stratton ATS units back when we were installing SMA Sunny Island >> systems. The Briggs unit does not need a control from an external source, >> it just switches over automatically (with a few second delay) once utility >> power is lost. We never had a single problem with these transfer switches. >> >> You might check them out: >> https://www.nationwidegenerators.com/briggs-stratton-071270-200-amp-se-rated-120-240v-1ph-ats/?srsltid=AfmBOorCds2ktOcsHUf3GWmX5ba70K-ynjOcm1iizzIW6X-9OkSVpfHA >> >> I know that Briggs went through a bankruptcy a few years ago, but maybe >> they're still alive and kicking now. >> >> August >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 1:29 PM Stuart Kriendler < >> stuartkriendler at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Much appreciated August, >>> >>> Yes, that fancy Enphase System Controller is a nice piece of kit, >>> overseen a few of those and it is nice they pass through the grid power if >>> there is an issue, most of the time. >>> ;-) >>> I'm in love with the MN AIO, the build quality is impressive and great >>> value for money, with the CBI breakers and features mentioned earlier etc. >>> all built in. >>> Now seen an engineering sample do the business in an rugged off-grid >>> scenario for a few months and feel confident it will be a great GT hybrid >>> option, one catch is the need for a 3rd party ATS though. >>> (Hoping Midnite will make one of their own in time, as well as a wireway >>> to marry the PowerFlo 16 and AIO, both such nicely built solid equipment). >>> >>> Hopefully the Kohler RXT or Generac can work to keep the ATS cost below >>> $1k! >>> >>> Sunniest regards, >>> Stuart >>> 441 599 2105 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 at 16:02, August Goers wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Stuart - >>>> >>>> Many grid tied PV/ESS manufacturers (Enphase, SolarEdge, Franklin, >>>> Tesla to name a few) now have a Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) that >>>> essentially acts as a smart transfer switch thus eliminating the need for a >>>> 3rd party automatic transfer switch. What brands equipment are you looking >>>> at? >>>> >>>> Best, August >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 11:10 AM Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Good day Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> 2025 looks to be the year for installing more grid tied (GT) battery >>>>> back up hybrid inverters on new and existing GT PV systems in a whole house >>>>> backup scenario >>>>> i.e. Utility - Hybrid Inverter - House Loads >>>>> >>>>> With these newer GT hybrids so 'sensitive', any fault on the PV side >>>>> can cause them to shut down, thus stopping power to the house. >>>>> To minimise this it seems sensible to add an ATS to the system such >>>>> that if/when the hybrid faults, the ATS w switch to grid power, bypass the >>>>> hybrid, and power the house. >>>>> This could save an emergency truck roll or late night phone call for >>>>> installers. >>>>> >>>>> Anyone have experience on good value-for-money Listed automatic >>>>> transfer switches that would do the job, 200A, 120/240V? >>>>> >>>>> Two name brand options that came up on the less expensive end of the >>>>> spectrum are: >>>>> - Generac >>>>> RXSW200A3 (https://www.generac.com/residential-products/standby-generator-transfer-switches/automatic/rxsw200a3/) >>>>> >>>>> - Kohler 200-amp, Service Entrance RXT ATS | RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4 ( >>>>> https://www.kohler.com/content/dam/kohler-com-NA/Lifestyle/PDF/PDF-g11152.pdf >>>>> ) >>>>> >>>>> However, they each say their ATSs must be used with the corresponding >>>>> generator. >>>>> >>>>> I would imagine a simple 'grid sense' functionality would mean that if >>>>> the hybrid's output was connected to the Grid/Normal lugs and the grid was >>>>> connected to the Gene/Backup lugs in the ATS it should work. >>>>> However I don't want to end up with an expensive surprise in a >>>>> relatively remote location where I operate! >>>>> >>>>> Would appreciate any feedback with experience with the above or other >>>>> ATS models or how people are future proofing for this scenario? >>>>> To do future maintenance/torque checks etc. in a GT hybrid whole home >>>>> backup situation, it would be nice to bypass the inverter and keep the >>>>> house powered for safety and homeowner convenience in general. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks and best. >>>>> >>>>> Sunniest regards, >>>>> Stuart >>>>> 441 599 2105 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 17 13:21:14 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2025 11:21:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback fm-80 Message-ID: <850D4632-D0B8-4BE5-A7E8-D99E2716B40F@gmail.com> HI All, I thought I’d share some details from OB that I got the other day. Maybe some or most of you know this but I didn’t. 1. there are 3 blue pots at the bottom of the controller. The lowest one is voltage adjustment. Set the calibration to 0, then adjust with that pot. It leaves the factory unadjusted if it’s within 1v, which I presume is at 48v. 2. If you have a VMP which is close to battery voltage. It turns out VMP has to be 12v above battery volt for the MPPT to work. And that voltage isn’t what you measure at the terminals but inside, so it could be more or less. 3. To help with #2 you can adjust the snooze mode amps down from .6 to .2 which by chance they found out it helps. And no they don’t actually know why. From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Jan 17 15:51:28 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2025 12:51:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We've been using manual transfer switches with the Midnite AIO's On Fri, Jan 17, 2025 at 7:29 AM Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Many thanks again Mac and Wrenches, > > This is now put to bed with confirmation the only listed 200A ATS that > will work without a 12V switching controller that I could find around the > $1k mark is indeed the Kohler RDT series. > (All currently manufactured Generac, Briggs & Stratton and Cummins ATS > options require a controller to talk to the same name brand gene to > switch/transfer, or a Mcgiver move.) > > I found a supplier in Florida who gave a slight volume discount and seems > solid. > Here is a link to the product, pricing, specs and manual through them: > > https://bnhgenerators.com/product/kohler-200-amp-rdt-ats-rdt-cfnc-0200a-qs7/ > > And another supplier option with similar pricing, and the 100A version > readily available in case helpful: > > https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Kohler-RDT-CFNC-0200A-QS7/p2202.html > > Best to all and thanks again. > > Sunniest regards, > Stuart > 441 599 2105 > > > On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 at 21:02, Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hi Stuart, >> >> The Kohler RDT switch is a much better switch for what you are doing; it >> is a power seeking switch with no accessory device communication needed. >> It is more expensive than the RXT switch because it has its own brain >> board. A Kohler tech can adjust the delays for you if needed but the >> defaults are good. We have a few of them out there with no issues. They >> have them available as service entrance rated/indoor/outdoor etc. >> >> Good Luck! >> >> On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 2:55 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Stuart, >>> >>> Got it, now I see you're working with the MidNite AIO. This ATS topic >>> came up not too long ago and I posted that we used to have success with >>> Briggs & Stratton ATS units back when we were installing SMA Sunny Island >>> systems. The Briggs unit does not need a control from an external source, >>> it just switches over automatically (with a few second delay) once utility >>> power is lost. We never had a single problem with these transfer switches. >>> >>> You might check them out: >>> https://www.nationwidegenerators.com/briggs-stratton-071270-200-amp-se-rated-120-240v-1ph-ats/?srsltid=AfmBOorCds2ktOcsHUf3GWmX5ba70K-ynjOcm1iizzIW6X-9OkSVpfHA >>> >>> I know that Briggs went through a bankruptcy a few years ago, but maybe >>> they're still alive and kicking now. >>> >>> August >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 1:29 PM Stuart Kriendler < >>> stuartkriendler at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Much appreciated August, >>>> >>>> Yes, that fancy Enphase System Controller is a nice piece of kit, >>>> overseen a few of those and it is nice they pass through the grid power if >>>> there is an issue, most of the time. >>>> ;-) >>>> I'm in love with the MN AIO, the build quality is impressive and great >>>> value for money, with the CBI breakers and features mentioned earlier etc. >>>> all built in. >>>> Now seen an engineering sample do the business in an rugged off-grid >>>> scenario for a few months and feel confident it will be a great GT hybrid >>>> option, one catch is the need for a 3rd party ATS though. >>>> (Hoping Midnite will make one of their own in time, as well as a >>>> wireway to marry the PowerFlo 16 and AIO, both such nicely built solid >>>> equipment). >>>> >>>> Hopefully the Kohler RXT or Generac can work to keep the ATS cost below >>>> $1k! >>>> >>>> Sunniest regards, >>>> Stuart >>>> 441 599 2105 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 at 16:02, August Goers wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Stuart - >>>>> >>>>> Many grid tied PV/ESS manufacturers (Enphase, SolarEdge, Franklin, >>>>> Tesla to name a few) now have a Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) that >>>>> essentially acts as a smart transfer switch thus eliminating the need for a >>>>> 3rd party automatic transfer switch. What brands equipment are you looking >>>>> at? >>>>> >>>>> Best, August >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 11:10 AM Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Good day Wrenches, >>>>>> >>>>>> 2025 looks to be the year for installing more grid tied (GT) battery >>>>>> back up hybrid inverters on new and existing GT PV systems in a whole house >>>>>> backup scenario >>>>>> i.e. Utility - Hybrid Inverter - House Loads >>>>>> >>>>>> With these newer GT hybrids so 'sensitive', any fault on the PV side >>>>>> can cause them to shut down, thus stopping power to the house. >>>>>> To minimise this it seems sensible to add an ATS to the system such >>>>>> that if/when the hybrid faults, the ATS w switch to grid power, bypass the >>>>>> hybrid, and power the house. >>>>>> This could save an emergency truck roll or late night phone call for >>>>>> installers. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyone have experience on good value-for-money Listed automatic >>>>>> transfer switches that would do the job, 200A, 120/240V? >>>>>> >>>>>> Two name brand options that came up on the less expensive end of the >>>>>> spectrum are: >>>>>> - Generac >>>>>> RXSW200A3 (https://www.generac.com/residential-products/standby-generator-transfer-switches/automatic/rxsw200a3/) >>>>>> >>>>>> - Kohler 200-amp, Service Entrance RXT ATS | RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4 ( >>>>>> https://www.kohler.com/content/dam/kohler-com-NA/Lifestyle/PDF/PDF-g11152.pdf >>>>>> ) >>>>>> >>>>>> However, they each say their ATSs must be used with the corresponding >>>>>> generator. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would imagine a simple 'grid sense' functionality would mean that >>>>>> if the hybrid's output was connected to the Grid/Normal lugs and the grid >>>>>> was connected to the Gene/Backup lugs in the ATS it should work. >>>>>> However I don't want to end up with an expensive surprise in a >>>>>> relatively remote location where I operate! >>>>>> >>>>>> Would appreciate any feedback with experience with the above or other >>>>>> ATS models or how people are future proofing for this scenario? >>>>>> To do future maintenance/torque checks etc. in a GT hybrid whole home >>>>>> backup situation, it would be nice to bypass the inverter and keep the >>>>>> house powered for safety and homeowner convenience in general. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks and best. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sunniest regards, >>>>>> Stuart >>>>>> 441 599 2105 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jan 17 16:26:04 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2025 13:26:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Stuart: Thank you for the follow up. Valuable information. A generator vendor just today proposed the use of an RDT unit to place between two generators and the input to an off-grid inverter/charger system. The idea is to have an automated means to start a secondary generator if the primary generator fails to start. I read the RDT manual and I don’t believe the RDT will do what I describe above. The RDT can only automatically transfer if the primary voltage source becomes de-energized. I did think of a way to make the RDT work for us because we will connect it to a Sunny Island system: We could connect Relay 1 to start generator 1 if the SOC goes below a certain value, let’s say 30%, hypothetically. We could then program Relay 2 in load shed mode (Lod1SocTm1Str) to close at a lower SOC, let’s say 20%. This way if the primary generator does not start at 30% SOC the secondary starts at 20%. Once the Secondary generator starts the RDT will transfer. Does this seem feasible? By the way, I recall there are upper and lower limits to the values one can enter into Lod1SocTm1Str and Lod1SocTm1Stp. Is my memory correct and does anyone know what those limits are? That information is not in the manual that I can find. Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Friday, January 17, 2025 7:29 AM *To:* Mac Lewis *Cc:* Stuart Kriendler; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] ATS models to bypass GT hybrid inverters for maintenance/faults Many thanks again Mac and Wrenches, This is now put to bed with confirmation the only listed 200A ATS that will work without a 12V switching controller that I could find around the $1k mark is indeed the Kohler RDT series. (All currently manufactured Generac, Briggs & Stratton and Cummins ATS options require a controller to talk to the same name brand gene to switch/transfer, or a Mcgiver move.) I found a supplier in Florida who gave a slight volume discount and seems solid. Here is a link to the product, pricing, specs and manual through them: https://bnhgenerators.com/product/kohler-200-amp-rdt-ats-rdt-cfnc-0200a-qs7/ And another supplier option with similar pricing, and the 100A version readily available in case helpful: https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Kohler-RDT-CFNC-0200A-QS7/p2202.html Best to all and thanks again. Sunniest regards, Stuart 441 599 2105 On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 at 21:02, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Stuart, The Kohler RDT switch is a much better switch for what you are doing; it is a power seeking switch with no accessory device communication needed. It is more expensive than the RXT switch because it has its own brain board. A Kohler tech can adjust the delays for you if needed but the defaults are good. We have a few of them out there with no issues. They have them available as service entrance rated/indoor/outdoor etc. Good Luck! On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 2:55 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Hi Stuart, Got it, now I see you're working with the MidNite AIO. This ATS topic came up not too long ago and I posted that we used to have success with Briggs & Stratton ATS units back when we were installing SMA Sunny Island systems. The Briggs unit does not need a control from an external source, it just switches over automatically (with a few second delay) once utility power is lost. We never had a single problem with these transfer switches. You might check them out: https://www.nationwidegenerators.com/briggs-stratton-071270-200-amp-se-rated-120-240v-1ph-ats/?srsltid=AfmBOorCds2ktOcsHUf3GWmX5ba70K-ynjOcm1iizzIW6X-9OkSVpfHA I know that Briggs went through a bankruptcy a few years ago, but maybe they're still alive and kicking now. August On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 1:29 PM Stuart Kriendler wrote: Much appreciated August, Yes, that fancy Enphase System Controller is a nice piece of kit, overseen a few of those and it is nice they pass through the grid power if there is an issue, most of the time. ;-) I'm in love with the MN AIO, the build quality is impressive and great value for money, with the CBI breakers and features mentioned earlier etc. all built in. Now seen an engineering sample do the business in an rugged off-grid scenario for a few months and feel confident it will be a great GT hybrid option, one catch is the need for a 3rd party ATS though. (Hoping Midnite will make one of their own in time, as well as a wireway to marry the PowerFlo 16 and AIO, both such nicely built solid equipment). Hopefully the Kohler RXT or Generac can work to keep the ATS cost below $1k! Sunniest regards, Stuart 441 599 2105 On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 at 16:02, August Goers wrote: Hi Stuart - Many grid tied PV/ESS manufacturers (Enphase, SolarEdge, Franklin, Tesla to name a few) now have a Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) that essentially acts as a smart transfer switch thus eliminating the need for a 3rd party automatic transfer switch. What brands equipment are you looking at? Best, August On Tue, Jan 14, 2025 at 11:10 AM Stuart Kriendler via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Good day Wrenches, 2025 looks to be the year for installing more grid tied (GT) battery back up hybrid inverters on new and existing GT PV systems in a whole house backup scenario i.e. Utility - Hybrid Inverter - House Loads With these newer GT hybrids so 'sensitive', any fault on the PV side can cause them to shut down, thus stopping power to the house. To minimise this it seems sensible to add an ATS to the system such that if/when the hybrid faults, the ATS w switch to grid power, bypass the hybrid, and power the house. This could save an emergency truck roll or late night phone call for installers. Anyone have experience on good value-for-money Listed automatic transfer switches that would do the job, 200A, 120/240V? Two name brand options that came up on the less expensive end of the spectrum are: - Generac RXSW200A3 ( https://www.generac.com/residential-products/standby-generator-transfer-switches/automatic/rxsw200a3/ ) - *Kohler 200-amp, Service Entrance RXT ATS | RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4 (* https://www.kohler.com/content/dam/kohler-com-NA/Lifestyle/PDF/PDF-g11152.pdf ) However, they each say their ATSs must be used with the corresponding generator. I would imagine a simple 'grid sense' functionality would mean that if the hybrid's output was connected to the Grid/Normal lugs and the grid was connected to the Gene/Backup lugs in the ATS it should work. However I don't want to end up with an expensive surprise in a relatively remote location where I operate! Would appreciate any feedback with experience with the above or other ATS models or how people are future proofing for this scenario? To do future maintenance/torque checks etc. in a GT hybrid whole home backup situation, it would be nice to bypass the inverter and keep the house powered for safety and homeowner convenience in general. Thanks and best. Sunniest regards, Stuart 441 599 2105 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jan 17 16:35:34 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2025 13:35:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island transfer relay sticking Message-ID: <6e86be3d1dbb03224f53604c4b86d213@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I have a Sunny Island system that is intermittently experiencing a stuck transfer relay. Has anyone tried to clean these relay contacts or replace the relay? If so, what can you tell me about your experience? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Jan 17 18:20:25 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2025 23:20:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Parts In-Reply-To: <8ad23399f6c47b54bd7a617777518b85@redwoodalliance.org> References: <8ad23399f6c47b54bd7a617777518b85@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Not sure about parts today, but I have heard from a reliable source that Magnum will be back in business after Sensata ran it into the ground. Moving production back to Washington state with many of the original employees and hopefully product to ship this summer. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches Sent: January-17-25 5:03 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Parts Are any boards or other parts for Magnum inverters available now that Magnum has closed its doors. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Jan 17 21:25:00 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2025 21:25:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Island transfer relay sticking In-Reply-To: <6e86be3d1dbb03224f53604c4b86d213@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e86be3d1dbb03224f53604c4b86d213@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I've had that happen on at least a few SIs many years ago. Never tried to clean them. SMA just replaced one under warranty after it ended up permanently stuck, and advised me to tap the others when they would occasionally stuck. Not very satisfying or helpful. I assume they didn't have any useful fixes for them. Howie Sun Catcher On Fri, Jan 17, 2025, 4:48 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I have a Sunny Island system that is intermittently experiencing a stuck > transfer relay. Has anyone tried to clean these relay contacts or replace > the relay? If so, what can you tell me about your experience? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Jan 18 09:06:23 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 09:06:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with the Trace T220 transformer for her well pump. Recently it has started making a lot of noise when the well pump comes on. I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in the normal range. I have never had a transformer failure. Could this be a failing transformer? Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback T240). Are there other brands some of you may have used for a step up transformer? John Blittersdorf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Jan 18 09:10:44 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 09:10:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John, I have a new Outback 120/240 xformer if you need it. Contact me off list. On Sat, Jan 18, 2025 at 9:06 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with the Trace T220 > transformer for > her well pump. Recently it has started making a lot of noise when the > well pump comes on. > I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in the normal > range. I have never had a transformer failure. Could this be a failing > transformer? > > Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback T240). Are there > other brands > some of you may have used for a step up transformer? > > John Blittersdorf > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sat Jan 18 09:41:55 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 06:41:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think this Victron uses a toroid which is more efficient. It's sort of like the ones AEE used to sell. Maybe the efficiency is not so important for a pump as it would be for continuous use. Victron Autoformer Brad On Sat, Jan 18, 2025 at 6:11 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > John, > > I have a new Outback 120/240 xformer if you need it. Contact me off list. > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2025 at 9:06 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with the Trace T220 >> transformer for >> her well pump. Recently it has started making a lot of noise when the >> well pump comes on. >> I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in the normal >> range. I have never had a transformer failure. Could this be a failing >> transformer? >> >> Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback T240). Are there >> other brands >> some of you may have used for a step up transformer? >> >> John Blittersdorf >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Jan 18 11:29:30 2025 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 09:29:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When I tried to order an Outback T240 last fall, my distributor (CED Greentech) called Outback and was told they have none in stock because it doesn't sell many units, but they were going to do a limited production run this February. I went with the Victron instead. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sat, Jan 18, 2025 at 7:06 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with the Trace T220 > transformer for > her well pump. Recently it has started making a lot of noise when the > well pump comes on. > I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in the normal > range. I have never had a transformer failure. Could this be a failing > transformer? > > Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback T240). Are there > other brands > some of you may have used for a step up transformer? > > John Blittersdorf > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Jan 18 17:40:18 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 22:40:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback radian inverter with FM 100 ground fault Message-ID: Hey, all you wise ones, 37 years in the business and I’ve never had a ground fault ever in any installation I’ve done or my home systems. I went out to my system here an hour ago and one FM 100 is completely turned off claiming ground fault on the mate 3S. I guess my first question is : Is this really a ground fault ? I had removed the ground fault breaker when I upgraded due to space considerations In my entire time in this business, I’ve never had to deal with the ground fault any suggestions on how I should be tracing this? Has anybody seen this in an FM 100 when it wasn’t a ground fault? I do own a megger& I’ve never had to use it. I only bought it about three months ago cause it seemed like a good idea and I might need to use one someday, Maybe I’m psychic ? now if I could just figure out how to trace this out. All suggestions welcome thanks all! Dana Orzel C: 208.721.7003 E- dana at solarwork.com From william at millersolar.com Sat Jan 18 17:44:52 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 14:44:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback radian inverter with FM 100 ground fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Could be a nuisance trip. Check and replace the fuse. Cross fingers. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sat, Jan 18, 2025 at 2:41 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey, all you wise ones, > 37 years in the business and I’ve never had a ground fault ever in any > installation I’ve done or my home systems. I went out to my system here an > hour ago and one FM 100 is completely turned off claiming ground fault on > the mate 3S. > I guess my first question is : > > Is this really a ground fault ? > > I had removed the ground fault breaker when I upgraded due to space > considerations > > In my entire time in this business, I’ve never had to deal with the ground > fault any suggestions on how I should be tracing this? > > Has anybody seen this in an FM 100 when it wasn’t a ground fault? > > I do own a megger& I’ve never had to use it. I only bought it about three > months ago cause it seemed like a good idea and I might need to use one > someday, Maybe I’m psychic ? > now if I could just figure out how to trace this out. > All suggestions welcome thanks all! > > Dana Orzel > C: 208.721.7003 > E- dana at solarwork.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Sat Jan 18 21:07:19 2025 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 18:07:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback radian inverter with FM 100 ground fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dana... Do you have multiple FM 100s? If so only one should have the GFI fuse. Broken panel with water getting into glass? Turn it off and wait 5 min and turn it on. Usually clears it especially if it's a faulty nuisance trip. Have had numerous FM 100s give faulty afci errors. Removing the.afci boards always resolved this issue. But of course check all you connections leading to and from the cc. Keep a few extra 1A gfi fuses handy....you may need a couple to test it all out. Keep us posted. Good luck Kirpal On Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 2:40 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey, all you wise ones, > 37 years in the business and I’ve never had a ground fault ever in any > installation I’ve done or my home systems. I went out to my system here an > hour ago and one FM 100 is completely turned off claiming ground fault on > the mate 3S. > I guess my first question is : > > Is this really a ground fault ? > > I had removed the ground fault breaker when I upgraded due to space > considerations > > In my entire time in this business, I’ve never had to deal with the ground > fault any suggestions on how I should be tracing this? > > Has anybody seen this in an FM 100 when it wasn’t a ground fault? > > I do own a megger& I’ve never had to use it. I only bought it about three > months ago cause it seemed like a good idea and I might need to use one > someday, Maybe I’m psychic ? > now if I could just figure out how to trace this out. > All suggestions welcome thanks all! > > Dana Orzel > C: 208.721.7003 > E- dana at solarwork.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump3391 at gmail.com Sun Jan 19 07:48:59 2025 From: tump3391 at gmail.com (Blair May) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2025 07:48:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John have u recently upgraded firmware. This has been an issue w/ the Schneider XWpro inverters off grid applications. Probably not an issue here but FYI. As for transformers Sola volt is what I usually use but Tformers are not too smart. Tump Blair "Tump" May On Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 9:06 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with the Trace T220 > transformer for > her well pump. Recently it has started making a lot of noise when the > well pump comes on. > I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in the normal > range. I have never had a transformer failure. Could this be a failing > transformer? > > Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback T240). Are there > other brands > some of you may have used for a step up transformer? > > John Blittersdorf > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sun Jan 19 09:06:13 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2025 14:06:13 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback radian inverter with FM 100 ground fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes I have 2 FM100s Dana Orzel C: 208.721.7003 E- dana at solarwork.com On Jan 18, 2025, at 7:08 PM, Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches wrote:  Dana... Do you have multiple FM 100s? If so only one should have the GFI fuse. Broken panel with water getting into glass? Turn it off and wait 5 min and turn it on. Usually clears it especially if it's a faulty nuisance trip. Have had numerous FM 100s give faulty afci errors. Removing the.afci boards always resolved this issue. But of course check all you connections leading to and from the cc. Keep a few extra 1A gfi fuses handy....you may need a couple to test it all out. Keep us posted. Good luck Kirpal On Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 2:40 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hey, all you wise ones, 37 years in the business and I’ve never had a ground fault ever in any installation I’ve done or my home systems. I went out to my system here an hour ago and one FM 100 is completely turned off claiming ground fault on the mate 3S. I guess my first question is : Is this really a ground fault ? I had removed the ground fault breaker when I upgraded due to space considerations In my entire time in this business, I’ve never had to deal with the ground fault any suggestions on how I should be tracing this? Has anybody seen this in an FM 100 when it wasn’t a ground fault? I do own a megger& I’ve never had to use it. I only bought it about three months ago cause it seemed like a good idea and I might need to use one someday, Maybe I’m psychic ? now if I could just figure out how to trace this out. All suggestions welcome thanks all! Dana Orzel C: 208.721.7003 E- dana at solarwork.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 19 09:47:33 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2025 07:47:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback radian inverter with FM 100 ground fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Dana, Ground faults are tricky. Here is how I would tackle this on a sunny day: 1. Visual inspection of array, looking for backsheet, wire damage, broken glass, critter stuff (nests and bite marks). Look for water intrusion or evidence that water has been somewhere that it shouldn't. 2. Visual inspection of all splice boxes, checking for wire insulation damage, evidence of water intrusion and critter entry. 3. Probe voltage between +, - and Ground (do this at a string level initially, and isolate strings and do this at open circuit). Any evidence of bouncing voltage readings, loss of voltage, not rock solid voltage suggests you may have a ground fault in that string. If its in the string somewhere, you may see the voltage bounce and read in some fraction of the string voltage. This can tell you where in the string it may be. FOr example, if you have a 5 module string, you may get a 3/5 voltage reading if the fault is near the 3rd module. 4. Turn off array at combiner and run continuity tests between +, - and Ground again (no gfp fuse). If you have continuity, this may suggest a ground fault in conduit run between combiner and FM100. Good Luck, bring extra fuses! On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 7:07 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yes I have 2 FM100s > Dana Orzel > C: 208.721.7003 > E- dana at solarwork.com > > On Jan 18, 2025, at 7:08 PM, Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Dana... > Do you have multiple FM 100s? If so only one should have the GFI fuse. > Broken panel with water getting into glass? > Turn it off and wait 5 min and turn it on. Usually clears it especially > if it's a faulty nuisance trip. > Have had numerous FM 100s give faulty afci errors. Removing the.afci > boards always resolved this issue. But of course check all you connections > leading to and from the cc. > Keep a few extra 1A gfi fuses handy....you may need a couple to test it > all out. > Keep us posted. > Good luck > Kirpal > > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 2:40 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hey, all you wise ones, >> 37 years in the business and I’ve never had a ground fault ever in any >> installation I’ve done or my home systems. I went out to my system here an >> hour ago and one FM 100 is completely turned off claiming ground fault on >> the mate 3S. >> I guess my first question is : >> >> Is this really a ground fault ? >> >> I had removed the ground fault breaker when I upgraded due to space >> considerations >> >> In my entire time in this business, I’ve never had to deal with the >> ground fault any suggestions on how I should be tracing this? >> >> Has anybody seen this in an FM 100 when it wasn’t a ground fault? >> >> I do own a megger& I’ve never had to use it. I only bought it about >> three months ago cause it seemed like a good idea and I might need to use >> one someday, Maybe I’m psychic ? >> now if I could just figure out how to trace this out. >> All suggestions welcome thanks all! >> >> Dana Orzel >> C: 208.721.7003 >> E- dana at solarwork.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jan 19 09:57:04 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2025 07:57:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback radian inverter with FM 100 ground fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3729547F-6214-4356-BE3F-B94B0DE91FEA@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Sun Jan 19 14:47:51 2025 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2025 11:47:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback radian inverter with FM 100 ground fault In-Reply-To: <3729547F-6214-4356-BE3F-B94B0DE91FEA@gmail.com> References: <3729547F-6214-4356-BE3F-B94B0DE91FEA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, If there is a PV ground fault, putting a short across the fuse holder may cause damage by drawing an arc. Use a multimeter to measure voltage across the fuse holder (should be the same as measuring voltage between PV negative and ground); if there is no voltage then there probably isn't a PV ground fault or any ground fault at that time. If there is voltage, then you need to track it down. It isn't necessarily in the PV array - it could be a dc load or even in the battery. If the voltage exceeds the battery voltage, the PV array is the culprit. If you compute the proportion of the negative to ground voltage to open circuit voltage then apply that proportion to the number of modules, it should tell you about where to look. If you have multiple strings, isolate the problem: disconnect all of the PV negative connections and see which one gives you a solid voltage to ground. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 1/19/2025 6:57 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Question about the fuses. > > For testing could you put a short test wire across the ends of the > fuse holder and use a clamp on to test for current? Would it cause any > damage? > > Instead of potentially going through lots of fuses? > > Jay > > > >> On Jan 19, 2025, at 7:48 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> Hello Dana, >> >> Ground faults are tricky.  Here is how I would tackle this on a >> sunny day: >> 1.  Visual inspection of array, looking for backsheet, wire damage, >> broken glass, critter stuff (nests and bite marks).  Look for water >> intrusion or evidence that water has been somewhere that it shouldn't. >> 2.  Visual inspection of all splice boxes, checking for wire >> insulation damage, evidence of water intrusion and critter entry. >> 3.  Probe voltage between +, - and Ground (do this at a string level >> initially, and isolate strings and do this at open circuit).  Any >> evidence of bouncing voltage readings, loss of voltage, not rock >> solid voltage suggests you may have a ground fault in that string.  >> If its in the string somewhere, you may see the voltage bounce and >> read in some fraction of the string voltage.  This can tell you where >> in the string it may be.  FOr example, if you have a 5 module string, >> you may get a 3/5 voltage reading if the fault is near the 3rd module. >> 4.  Turn off array at combiner and run continuity tests between +, - >> and Ground again (no gfp fuse).  If you have continuity, this may >> suggest a ground fault in conduit run between combiner and FM100. >> >> Good Luck, bring extra fuses! >> >> On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 7:07 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Yes I have 2 FM100s >> Dana Orzel >> C: 208.721.7003 >> E- dana at solarwork.com >> >>> On Jan 18, 2025, at 7:08 PM, Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Dana... >>> Do you have multiple FM 100s? If so only one should have the GFI >>> fuse. >>> Broken panel with water getting into glass? >>> Turn it off and wait 5 min and turn it on.  Usually clears it >>> especially if it's a faulty nuisance trip. >>> Have had numerous FM 100s give faulty afci errors.  Removing >>> the.afci boards always resolved this issue.  But of course check >>> all you connections leading to and from the cc. >>> Keep a few extra 1A gfi fuses handy....you may need a couple to >>> test it all out. >>> Keep us posted. >>> Good luck >>> Kirpal >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 2:40 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hey, all you wise ones, >>> 37 years in the business and I’ve never had a ground fault >>> ever in any installation I’ve done or my home systems. I >>> went out to my system here an hour ago and one FM 100 is >>> completely turned off claiming ground fault on the mate 3S. >>> I guess my first question is : >>> >>> Is this really a ground fault ? >>> >>> I had removed the ground fault breaker when I upgraded due >>> to space considerations >>> >>> In my entire time in this business, I’ve never had to deal >>> with the ground fault any suggestions on how I should be >>> tracing this? >>> >>> Has anybody seen this in an FM 100 when it wasn’t a ground >>> fault? >>> >>> I do own a megger&  I’ve never had to use it. I only bought >>> it about three months ago cause it seemed like a good idea >>> and I might need to use one someday, Maybe I’m psychic ? >>> now if I could just figure out how to trace this out. >>> All suggestions welcome thanks all! >>> >>> Dana Orzel >>> C: 208.721.7003 >>> E- dana at solarwork.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jan 19 15:28:34 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2025 13:28:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback radian inverter with FM 100 ground fault In-Reply-To: References: <3729547F-6214-4356-BE3F-B94B0DE91FEA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18DFC3CA-A56C-41E7-A362-E011BD65A79F@gmail.com> HI Kent, Thanks for that info. Makes sense jay > On Jan 19, 2025, at 12:47 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jay, > > If there is a PV ground fault, putting a short across the fuse holder may cause damage by drawing an arc. Use a multimeter to measure voltage across the fuse holder (should be the same as measuring voltage between PV negative and ground); if there is no voltage then there probably isn't a PV ground fault or any ground fault at that time. If there is voltage, then you need to track it down. It isn't necessarily in the PV array - it could be a dc load or even in the battery. If the voltage exceeds the battery voltage, the PV array is the culprit. If you compute the proportion of the negative to ground voltage to open circuit voltage then apply that proportion to the number of modules, it should tell you about where to look. If you have multiple strings, isolate the problem: disconnect all of the PV negative connections and see which one gives you a solid voltage to ground. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 1/19/2025 6:57 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Question about the fuses. >> >> For testing could you put a short test wire across the ends of the fuse holder and use a clamp on to test for current? Would it cause any damage? >> >> Instead of potentially going through lots of fuses? >> >> Jay >> >> >> >>> On Jan 19, 2025, at 7:48 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Hello Dana, >>> >>> Ground faults are tricky. Here is how I would tackle this on a sunny day: >>> 1. Visual inspection of array, looking for backsheet, wire damage, broken glass, critter stuff (nests and bite marks). Look for water intrusion or evidence that water has been somewhere that it shouldn't. >>> 2. Visual inspection of all splice boxes, checking for wire insulation damage, evidence of water intrusion and critter entry. >>> 3. Probe voltage between +, - and Ground (do this at a string level initially, and isolate strings and do this at open circuit). Any evidence of bouncing voltage readings, loss of voltage, not rock solid voltage suggests you may have a ground fault in that string. If its in the string somewhere, you may see the voltage bounce and read in some fraction of the string voltage. This can tell you where in the string it may be. FOr example, if you have a 5 module string, you may get a 3/5 voltage reading if the fault is near the 3rd module. >>> 4. Turn off array at combiner and run continuity tests between +, - and Ground again (no gfp fuse). If you have continuity, this may suggest a ground fault in conduit run between combiner and FM100. >>> >>> Good Luck, bring extra fuses! >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 7:07 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> Yes I have 2 FM100s >>>> Dana Orzel >>>> C: 208.721.7003 >>>> E- dana at solarwork.com >>>> >>>>> On Jan 18, 2025, at 7:08 PM, Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Dana... >>>>> Do you have multiple FM 100s? If so only one should have the GFI fuse. >>>>> Broken panel with water getting into glass? >>>>> Turn it off and wait 5 min and turn it on. Usually clears it especially if it's a faulty nuisance trip. >>>>> Have had numerous FM 100s give faulty afci errors. Removing the.afci boards always resolved this issue. But of course check all you connections leading to and from the cc. >>>>> Keep a few extra 1A gfi fuses handy....you may need a couple to test it all out. >>>>> Keep us posted. >>>>> Good luck >>>>> Kirpal >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 2:40 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> Hey, all you wise ones, >>>>>> 37 years in the business and I’ve never had a ground fault ever in any installation I’ve done or my home systems. I went out to my system here an hour ago and one FM 100 is completely turned off claiming ground fault on the mate 3S. >>>>>> I guess my first question is : >>>>>> >>>>>> Is this really a ground fault ? >>>>>> >>>>>> I had removed the ground fault breaker when I upgraded due to space considerations >>>>>> >>>>>> In my entire time in this business, I’ve never had to deal with the ground fault any suggestions on how I should be tracing this? >>>>>> >>>>>> Has anybody seen this in an FM 100 when it wasn’t a ground fault? >>>>>> >>>>>> I do own a megger& I’ve never had to use it. I only bought it about three months ago cause it seemed like a good idea and I might need to use one someday, Maybe I’m psychic ? >>>>>> now if I could just figure out how to trace this out. >>>>>> All suggestions welcome thanks all! >>>>>> >>>>>> Dana Orzel >>>>>> C: 208.721.7003 >>>>>> E- dana at solarwork.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon Jan 20 08:51:05 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2025 08:51:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback radian inverter with FM 100 ground fault In-Reply-To: <18DFC3CA-A56C-41E7-A362-E011BD65A79F@gmail.com> References: <3729547F-6214-4356-BE3F-B94B0DE91FEA@gmail.com> <18DFC3CA-A56C-41E7-A362-E011BD65A79F@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's fortunate that you have two charge controllers, which makes troubleshooting easier. If there is a solid ground fault, it should be easy to track down. Assuming that it is intermittent, you can start to do things like swap which PV input goes to which charge controller. Then see if the fault stays with the charge controller or if it switches to the other one, which will tell you if the issue is with the PV or with that charge controller itself. If its in the PV, then you can swap strings around until you can figure out which one has the fault. Also, as Mac mentioned, a visual inspection of the array may give a quick answer. Cheers, Dave On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 3:29 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI Kent, > > Thanks for that info. > Makes sense > > jay > > On Jan 19, 2025, at 12:47 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jay, > > If there is a PV ground fault, putting a short across the fuse holder may > cause damage by drawing an arc. Use a multimeter to measure voltage across > the fuse holder (should be the same as measuring voltage between PV > negative and ground); if there is no voltage then there probably isn't a PV > ground fault or any ground fault at that time. If there is voltage, then > you need to track it down. It isn't necessarily in the PV array - it could > be a dc load or even in the battery. If the voltage exceeds the battery > voltage, the PV array is the culprit. If you compute the proportion of the > negative to ground voltage to open circuit voltage then apply that > proportion to the number of modules, it should tell you about where to > look. If you have multiple strings, isolate the problem: disconnect all of > the PV negative connections and see which one gives you a solid voltage to > ground. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 1/19/2025 6:57 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Question about the fuses. > > For testing could you put a short test wire across the ends of the fuse > holder and use a clamp on to test for current? Would it cause any damage? > > Instead of potentially going through lots of fuses? > > Jay > > > > On Jan 19, 2025, at 7:48 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > >  > Hello Dana, > > Ground faults are tricky. Here is how I would tackle this on a sunny day: > 1. Visual inspection of array, looking for backsheet, wire damage, broken > glass, critter stuff (nests and bite marks). Look for water intrusion or > evidence that water has been somewhere that it shouldn't. > 2. Visual inspection of all splice boxes, checking for wire insulation > damage, evidence of water intrusion and critter entry. > 3. Probe voltage between +, - and Ground (do this at a string level > initially, and isolate strings and do this at open circuit). Any evidence > of bouncing voltage readings, loss of voltage, not rock solid voltage > suggests you may have a ground fault in that string. If its in the string > somewhere, you may see the voltage bounce and read in some fraction of the > string voltage. This can tell you where in the string it may be. FOr > example, if you have a 5 module string, you may get a 3/5 voltage reading > if the fault is near the 3rd module. > 4. Turn off array at combiner and run continuity tests between +, - and > Ground again (no gfp fuse). If you have continuity, this may suggest a > ground fault in conduit run between combiner and FM100. > > Good Luck, bring extra fuses! > > On Sun, Jan 19, 2025 at 7:07 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Yes I have 2 FM100s >> Dana Orzel >> C: 208.721.7003 >> E- dana at solarwork.com >> >> On Jan 18, 2025, at 7:08 PM, Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Dana... >> Do you have multiple FM 100s? If so only one should have the GFI fuse. >> Broken panel with water getting into glass? >> Turn it off and wait 5 min and turn it on. Usually clears it especially >> if it's a faulty nuisance trip. >> Have had numerous FM 100s give faulty afci errors. Removing the.afci >> boards always resolved this issue. But of course check all you connections >> leading to and from the cc. >> Keep a few extra 1A gfi fuses handy....you may need a couple to test it >> all out. >> Keep us posted. >> Good luck >> Kirpal >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 18, 2025, 2:40 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hey, all you wise ones, >>> 37 years in the business and I’ve never had a ground fault ever in any >>> installation I’ve done or my home systems. I went out to my system here an >>> hour ago and one FM 100 is completely turned off claiming ground fault on >>> the mate 3S. >>> I guess my first question is : >>> >>> Is this really a ground fault ? >>> >>> I had removed the ground fault breaker when I upgraded due to space >>> considerations >>> >>> In my entire time in this business, I’ve never had to deal with the >>> ground fault any suggestions on how I should be tracing this? >>> >>> Has anybody seen this in an FM 100 when it wasn’t a ground fault? >>> >>> I do own a megger& I’ve never had to use it. I only bought it about >>> three months ago cause it seemed like a good idea and I might need to use >>> one someday, Maybe I’m psychic ? >>> now if I could just figure out how to trace this out. >>> All suggestions welcome thanks all! >>> >>> Dana Orzel >>> C: 208.721.7003 >>> E- dana at solarwork.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jan 20 15:05:29 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2025 13:05:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian GT set up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI All I find myself at a loss. Its been way too many years since I’ve had to work on a OB radian GT with full outback gear to remember all the settings. I have someone contacting me with a system that isn’t or doesn’t seem to be working. Without OB tech support ( lones) available I wonder if anyone has a list of the settings that they would be willing to share. I’d hate to drive 2 hrs each way without enough data to confirm if it’s a settings issue. And no it’s not on optics. thanks in advance jay From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Jan 20 15:11:29 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2025 14:11:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian GT set up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, What type and size of battery bank do they have? That will help set the SellRE Voltages, charger, etc. Why can’t they add the system to OpticsRE? I commonly install an IOGear Wifi to Ethernet adapter and get people online. Off List Consult is available. Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Jan 20, 2025, at 2:05 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > HI All > > I find myself at a loss. > Its been way too many years since I’ve had to work on a OB radian GT with full outback gear to remember all the settings. > > I have someone contacting me with a system that isn’t or doesn’t seem to be working. Without OB tech support ( lones) available I wonder if anyone has a list of the settings that they would be willing to share. > I’d hate to drive 2 hrs each way without enough data to confirm if it’s a settings issue. > And no it’s not on optics. > > thanks in advance > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Jan 20 15:47:03 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2025 12:47:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Home Back-Ups Message-ID: I'm getting calls almost weekly. "Hi, I bought an EcoFlow home back up system, I'm looking for someone to install solar panels for it". I've convinced a couple of clients to take a hit and sell the EcoFlow, Bluetti, Anker units at a loss and let me install a permanent system. Anyone else getting these requests? I've already determined that a lot of my potential off-grid work has disappeared because of these portable units. Is this where things are heading? -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Jan 20 16:08:29 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2025 16:08:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Home Back-Ups In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <621a203a-fcfb-4798-a634-780b3e4a12ca@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon Jan 20 16:09:14 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2025 16:09:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Home Back-Ups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Michael, I have also gotten some calls from people asking me to install equipment if they purchase it on their own. Specifically a few calls about the EcoFlow equipment. It sounds like it even has some of the required UL listings (I have not looked into it too closely). But I tell them to do it themselves if they want to buy a battery system off of amazon. If they want something more reliable and proven, I will install a proper system for them, but it will certainly cost a lot more. Cheers, Dave On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 3:48 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm getting calls almost weekly. "Hi, I bought an EcoFlow home back up > system, I'm looking for someone to install solar panels for it". I've > convinced a couple of clients to take a hit and sell the EcoFlow, Bluetti, > Anker units at a loss and let me install a permanent system. Anyone else > getting these requests? I've already determined that a lot of my potential > off-grid work has disappeared because of these portable units. Is this > where things are heading? > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Jan 20 16:17:31 2025 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2025 14:17:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Home Back-Ups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Around here myself and lots of installers, especially those few who do off-grid, are getting similar calls. In the city as backup for grid outages, I think they get away with not being UL-listed or needing permits by connecting it to the home main AC panel as a "backup generator" through an ATS, the units are advertised as "portable," same with the PV on a "portable" rack in the yard. I think that's why they market them as "solar generators." Off-grid I have heard of such units dodging permitting by showing a fossil fuel generator as the main AC source to the main panel, and again the "solar generator" connected as would a backup generator through an ATS or MTS. Mount the PV on an old trailer, and it's "portable," the battery/inverter units are on wheels so roll 'em into the garage, etc. and the whole system is "portable." I don't like the trend at all, but as Glenn said, for small systems in places that don't need permitting like a small cabin, they can be a cost-effective solution. Our county is very strict about off-grid system components being Listed for residential (even to the point of rejecting permits because of altitude restrictions listed on inverter datasheets) They would not approve any such workarounds. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 1:48 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm getting calls almost weekly. "Hi, I bought an EcoFlow home back up > system, I'm looking for someone to install solar panels for it". I've > convinced a couple of clients to take a hit and sell the EcoFlow, Bluetti, > Anker units at a loss and let me install a permanent system. Anyone else > getting these requests? I've already determined that a lot of my potential > off-grid work has disappeared because of these portable units. Is this > where things are heading? > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jan 20 20:31:56 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2025 17:31:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IQ8: Envoy needed for California installations Message-ID: Friends: Will the Enphase IQ8 operate in California right out of the box without connecting to a gateway? (I know I will not get monitoring or firmware updating. My question is will the IQ8, straight out of the box, if fed proper PV and line voltage, produce power?) Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Jan 21 08:31:23 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2025 08:31:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IQ8: Envoy needed for California installations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, I am 100% sure that the IQ7 would work without a Gateway. I am nearly sure that the IQ8's will as well. I'll sometimes turn the solar on before the gateway is fully installed just to test the strings, and the microinverters do seem to wake up. I am not sure what California might have to do with this, but I am in NY. The IQ8 standard grid settings are compliant with UL1741-SB as well. Cheers, Dave On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 8:35 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > Will the Enphase IQ8 operate in California right out of the box without > connecting to a gateway? > > > > (I know I will not get monitoring or firmware updating. My question is > will the IQ8, straight out of the box, if fed proper PV and line voltage, > produce power?) > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 21 09:15:24 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2025 07:15:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IQ8: Envoy needed for California installations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08B36171-612E-48F2-A35B-CFFC8092D827@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jan 21 09:57:56 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2025 09:57:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Home Back-Ups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We get the same calls and decline to get involved. We just tell people that consumer-grade products purchased online are geared toward the DIY market, not professional solar installers. I am not putting my reputation on the line for these brands. The other call we get frequently now is about EG4 products. In many cases, the homeowner has already purchased the equipment, and it's sitting in a partially opened pile in the garage. When they realize it's not as easy as plug-and-play, they panic and start calling around. I have two emails in my inbox right now from existing customers who want to purchase EG4 batteries and have me install them. I have reluctantly been installing EG4 batteries in these situations, but telling clients to consider me like a handyman, and they are on their own if things don't work out. I'm not getting involved with service nightmares that may come up later. If I don't procure and sell the equipment, I am not putting my seal of approval on it. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 3:48 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm getting calls almost weekly. "Hi, I bought an EcoFlow home back up > system, I'm looking for someone to install solar panels for it". I've > convinced a couple of clients to take a hit and sell the EcoFlow, Bluetti, > Anker units at a loss and let me install a permanent system. Anyone else > getting these requests? I've already determined that a lot of my potential > off-grid work has disappeared because of these portable units. Is this > where things are heading? > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Tue Jan 21 12:11:58 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2025 09:11:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IQ8: Envoy needed for California installations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I recently encountered this on an installation I set up for a neighbor. The 10 IQ8 inverters and REC 365's would only put out .9 amps @240vac total until I installed the Envoy and set the grid profile. Jumped to 9 amps almost immediately after commissioning with the Toolkit app. Northern California PG&E territory if that helps. Nick On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 5:34 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > Will the Enphase IQ8 operate in California right out of the box without > connecting to a gateway? > > > > (I know I will not get monitoring or firmware updating. My question is > will the IQ8, straight out of the box, if fed proper PV and line voltage, > produce power?) > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Jan 22 10:13:35 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2025 10:13:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55958b52-6ee1-477f-bc1f-fb9d89060311@entech-engineering.com> I could be a loose electrical or mechanical connection. It's been installed for a while and connections could have loosened up from expansion and contraction. On 1/18/2025 9:06 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Wrenches, >   I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with the Trace > T220 transformer for > her well pump.  Recently it has started making a lot of noise when the > well pump comes on. > I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in the > normal range.  I have never had a transformer failure. Could this be a > failing transformer? > > Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback T240).  Are > there other brands > some of you may have used for a step up transformer? > > John Blittersdorf > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Jan 22 10:30:13 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2025 10:30:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: <55958b52-6ee1-477f-bc1f-fb9d89060311@entech-engineering.com> References: <55958b52-6ee1-477f-bc1f-fb9d89060311@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: John, If you need a T240 (internal or external), I have a few used ones (and maybe a new one) in storage. Howie On Wed, Jan 22, 2025, 10:14 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I could be a loose electrical or mechanical connection. It's been > installed for a while and connections could have loosened up from > expansion and contraction. > > On 1/18/2025 9:06 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with the Trace > > T220 transformer for > > her well pump. Recently it has started making a lot of noise when the > > well pump comes on. > > I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in the > > normal range. I have never had a transformer failure. Could this be a > > failing transformer? > > > > Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback T240). Are > > there other brands > > some of you may have used for a step up transformer? > > > > John Blittersdorf > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Jan 22 22:31:08 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2025 22:31:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: References: <55958b52-6ee1-477f-bc1f-fb9d89060311@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Christopher, Update on the Transformer Humming. Installed a new PSX-240 from Kirk and it is LOUDER than the T-240 that I took out. I have a call into the well driller to see if they have a record of the pump size or other details. When connected directly to the grid via transfer switch, still loud noise... same with battery only. I did not check the 120VAC 30 amp break in the backed up loads sub panel. All other wiring was redone as I switched the pump directly to the grid until I received the new transformer and back to the inverter again. so all the connections were redone except the 120 breaker. John On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 10:30 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > John, > If you need a T240 (internal or external), I have a few used ones (and > maybe a new one) in storage. > Howie > > > On Wed, Jan 22, 2025, 10:14 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I could be a loose electrical or mechanical connection. It's been >> installed for a while and connections could have loosened up from >> expansion and contraction. >> >> On 1/18/2025 9:06 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: >> > Hi Wrenches, >> > I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with the Trace >> > T220 transformer for >> > her well pump. Recently it has started making a lot of noise when the >> > well pump comes on. >> > I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in the >> > normal range. I have never had a transformer failure. Could this be a >> > failing transformer? >> > >> > Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback T240). Are >> > there other brands >> > some of you may have used for a step up transformer? >> > >> > John Blittersdorf >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> -- >> Christopher Warfel, PE >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> (401) 447-5773 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Jan 22 23:29:50 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2025 20:29:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: References: <55958b52-6ee1-477f-bc1f-fb9d89060311@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: How do their clocks run? Is the Xfmer quiet down when the generator runs? If you have an O-scope, check the output waveform off the inverter. My guess is that the output waveform will be deformed, causing extra noise for the Xfmer. You might be able to see this on the frequency as well. It should be solid at 60Hz, but if it's drifting or way off the high side, FETS have probably failed. If you pull the top cover off the inverter the and you look at the FET board, it'll be the fets closest to the Fan on the AC board. [image: image.png] Steve Higgins On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 7:32 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Christopher, > Update on the Transformer Humming. Installed a new PSX-240 from Kirk and > it is LOUDER than the T-240 that I took out. > I have a call into the well driller to see if they have a record of the > pump size or other details. When connected > directly to the grid via transfer switch, still loud noise... same with > battery only. I did not check the 120VAC 30 amp break > in the backed up loads sub panel. All other wiring was redone as I > switched the pump directly to the grid until I received the > new transformer and back to the inverter again. so all the connections > were redone except the 120 breaker. > > John > > > On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 10:30 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> John, >> If you need a T240 (internal or external), I have a few used ones (and >> maybe a new one) in storage. >> Howie >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025, 10:14 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I could be a loose electrical or mechanical connection. It's been >>> installed for a while and connections could have loosened up from >>> expansion and contraction. >>> >>> On 1/18/2025 9:06 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> > Hi Wrenches, >>> > I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with the Trace >>> > T220 transformer for >>> > her well pump. Recently it has started making a lot of noise when the >>> > well pump comes on. >>> > I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in the >>> > normal range. I have never had a transformer failure. Could this be a >>> > failing transformer? >>> > >>> > Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback T240). Are >>> > there other brands >>> > some of you may have used for a step up transformer? >>> > >>> > John Blittersdorf >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> -- >>> Christopher Warfel, PE >>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>> (401) 447-5773 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 299817 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 23 09:46:07 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 07:46:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F8DA70B-84E7-40EA-A029-186E4587CAB9@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Thu Jan 23 13:56:02 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 10:56:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] big copper wire order Message-ID: Hi All, I need to place an order for about 19,000 ft of 1/0 copper. The conduits are underground and already existing. They were done via directional bore. If I could use Aluminum wire I would. I can't. Which supplier do you recommend for this quantity? Obviously hoping for a volume discount. Shipping to SF Bay Area, specifically Novato, CA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jan 23 14:05:25 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 11:05:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] big copper wire order In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Alameda Electric 1200 Holm Road Petaluma, CA 94954 *(707) 778-8881* <7077788881> The local office gives me good pricing and treats me well. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 10:57 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > I need to place an order for about 19,000 ft of 1/0 copper. The conduits > are underground and already existing. They were done via directional bore. > If I could use Aluminum wire I would. I can't. > Which supplier do you recommend for this quantity? Obviously hoping for > a volume discount. Shipping to SF Bay Area, specifically Novato, CA. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Jan 23 14:18:45 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 11:18:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] big copper wire order In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You might try OneMonroe Titan. https://titanwnc.com/?customer_id=323-492-8596&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA7se8BhCAARIsAKnF3rxH2aoNi44ou0wr29edZY6X3Bww-VGqmTiVwHfRdeu45fBoEqSZNxAaAmF1EALw_wcB As William Miller mentioned, we purchase a lot through Alameda and generally their wiring pricing is good. -Augus On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 11:06 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Alameda Electric > 1200 Holm Road > Petaluma, CA 94954 > *(707) 778-8881* <7077788881> > > The local office gives me good pricing and treats me well. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 10:57 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> I need to place an order for about 19,000 ft of 1/0 copper. The >> conduits are underground and already existing. They were done via >> directional bore. If I could use Aluminum wire I would. I can't. >> Which supplier do you recommend for this quantity? Obviously hoping for >> a volume discount. Shipping to SF Bay Area, specifically Novato, CA. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Jan 23 15:43:18 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 15:43:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: References: <55958b52-6ee1-477f-bc1f-fb9d89060311@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <6102af33-ad2a-43c3-9864-88668cbd7abe@entech-engineering.com> That's strike one, I get two more. On 1/22/2025 10:31 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > Christopher, > Update on the Transformer Humming.  Installed a new PSX-240 from Kirk > and it is LOUDER than the T-240 that I took out. > I have a call into the well driller to see if they have a record of > the pump size or other details. When connected > directly to the grid via transfer switch, still loud noise... same > with battery only.  I did not check the 120VAC 30 amp break > in the backed up loads sub panel. All other wiring was redone as I > switched the pump directly to the grid until I received the > new transformer and back to the inverter again. so all the connections > were redone except the 120 breaker. > > John > > > On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 10:30 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > John, > If you need a T240 (internal or external), I have a few used ones > (and maybe a new one) in storage. > Howie > > > On Wed, Jan 22, 2025, 10:14 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I could be a loose electrical or mechanical connection. It's been > installed for a while and connections could have loosened up from > expansion and contraction. > > On 1/18/2025 9:06 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > >   I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with > the Trace > > T220 transformer for > > her well pump.  Recently it has started making a lot of > noise when the > > well pump comes on. > > I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in > the > > normal range.  I have never had a transformer failure. Could > this be a > > failing transformer? > > > > Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback > T240).  Are > > there other brands > > some of you may have used for a step up transformer? > > > > John Blittersdorf > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jan 23 15:46:00 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 12:46:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] big copper wire order In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Platt, CED Greentech, call everyone and see who wants the business most. Platts distribution hub has miles of wire, don't know about CED. You may want to consider a buck and boost pair of transformers if you haven't already. On Thu, Jan 23, 2025, 11:19 AM August Goers via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > You might try OneMonroe Titan. > https://titanwnc.com/?customer_id=323-492-8596&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA7se8BhCAARIsAKnF3rxH2aoNi44ou0wr29edZY6X3Bww-VGqmTiVwHfRdeu45fBoEqSZNxAaAmF1EALw_wcB > > As William Miller mentioned, we purchase a lot through Alameda and > generally their wiring pricing is good. > > -Augus > > > > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 11:06 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Alameda Electric >> 1200 Holm Road >> >> Petaluma, CA 94954 >> >> *(707) 778-8881* <7077788881> >> >> The local office gives me good pricing and treats me well. >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 10:57 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> I need to place an order for about 19,000 ft of 1/0 copper. The >>> conduits are underground and already existing. They were done via >>> directional bore. If I could use Aluminum wire I would. I can't. >>> Which supplier do you recommend for this quantity? Obviously hoping >>> for a volume discount. Shipping to SF Bay Area, specifically Novato, CA. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Thu Jan 23 15:46:52 2025 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 12:46:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] big copper wire order In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try Rexel, too, in addition to Platt, CED, Alameda. Blake On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 12:46 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Platt, CED Greentech, call everyone and see who wants the business most. > Platts distribution hub has miles of wire, don't know about CED. > You may want to consider a buck and boost pair of transformers if you > haven't already. > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2025, 11:19 AM August Goers via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> You might try OneMonroe Titan. >> https://titanwnc.com/?customer_id=323-492-8596&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA7se8BhCAARIsAKnF3rxH2aoNi44ou0wr29edZY6X3Bww-VGqmTiVwHfRdeu45fBoEqSZNxAaAmF1EALw_wcB >> >> As William Miller mentioned, we purchase a lot through Alameda and >> generally their wiring pricing is good. >> >> -Augus >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 11:06 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Alameda Electric >>> 1200 Holm Road >>> >>> Petaluma, CA 94954 >>> >>> *(707) 778-8881* <7077788881> >>> >>> The local office gives me good pricing and treats me well. >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 10:57 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> I need to place an order for about 19,000 ft of 1/0 copper. The >>>> conduits are underground and already existing. They were done via >>>> directional bore. If I could use Aluminum wire I would. I can't. >>>> Which supplier do you recommend for this quantity? Obviously hoping >>>> for a volume discount. Shipping to SF Bay Area, specifically Novato, CA. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From theomaan at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 17:00:14 2025 From: theomaan at yahoo.com (Theo Van) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 14:00:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] big copper wire order References: Message-ID:   I once installed a 2000’ run of 2 x 3/0 copper. After I was done, a supplier told me there were crews that specialize in pulling long runs and supply the wire too. I never looked further into, but might be worth your while asking around. Maybe ask the directional boring contractor for referral. I ended up buying from a large local contractor I knew that got much better pricing than I could. I saved money and he made money on the deal. If you’re pulling downhill don’t let the wire get away from you! Let us know how it goes. > On Jan 23, 2025, at 10:57 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: >  > Hi All, > I need to place an order for about 19,000 ft of 1/0 copper. The conduits are underground and already existing. They were done via directional bore. If I could use Aluminum wire I would. I can't. > Which supplier do you recommend for this quantity? Obviously hoping for a volume discount. Shipping to SF Bay Area, specifically Novato, CA. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 23 17:34:56 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 15:34:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] big copper wire order In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50F1E97E-A185-4F8F-AA4C-0D6BFC67D330@gmail.com> Hi David, I’m curious why you can’t use aluminum wire? The only thing I can think of is physical size? I would look at some on line suppliers. I’ve found great pricing at https://nassaunationalcable.com/ Wire and Cable Distributor nassaunationalcable.com > On Jan 23, 2025, at 11:56 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > I need to place an order for about 19,000 ft of 1/0 copper. The conduits are underground and already existing. They were done via directional bore. If I could use Aluminum wire I would. I can't. > Which supplier do you recommend for this quantity? Obviously hoping for a volume discount. Shipping to SF Bay Area, specifically Novato, CA. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo_1.png Type: image/png Size: 137382 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Thu Jan 23 19:13:10 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 16:13:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] big copper wire order In-Reply-To: <50F1E97E-A185-4F8F-AA4C-0D6BFC67D330@gmail.com> References: <50F1E97E-A185-4F8F-AA4C-0D6BFC67D330@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Yes you nailed it. That is the issue. The underground conduits were run 12 years ago. I’m repowering with new modules and inverters. Now we have 1.5X delivered AC output. I’m lucky the original conduits were over sized, otherwise would have to hire the directional bore contractor. On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 2:34 PM jay wrote: > Hi David, > > I’m curious why you can’t use aluminum wire? > The only thing I can think of is physical size? > > I would look at some on line suppliers. > I’ve found great pricing at > > [image: logo_1.png] > > Wire and Cable Distributor > nassaunationalcable.com > > > On Jan 23, 2025, at 11:56 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > I need to place an order for about 19,000 ft of 1/0 copper. The conduits > are underground and already existing. They were done via directional bore. > If I could use Aluminum wire I would. I can't. > Which supplier do you recommend for this quantity? Obviously hoping for > a volume discount. Shipping to SF Bay Area, specifically Novato, CA. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo_1.png Type: image/png Size: 137382 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Jan 23 19:20:22 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 19:20:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower monitoring down? Message-ID: Hi All, At the moment, I cannot seem to be able to get into any of the Sunpower monitoring sites. mySunpower app seems to work on my phone at the moment, but not on the computer. Does anyone know if this is permanent, or whether there is some other hidden way to view the data? Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 23 19:28:14 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 17:28:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] big copper wire order In-Reply-To: References: <50F1E97E-A185-4F8F-AA4C-0D6BFC67D330@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7251DFB8-8654-44D4-9F75-A23598D4FFE1@gmail.com> got it. I know that 2/0 aluminum is the same physical size as 1/0 copper. But guess you need more than that. That is a big expense for someone! jay > On Jan 23, 2025, at 5:13 PM, david quattro wrote: > > Hi Jay, Yes you nailed it. That is the issue. > The underground conduits were run 12 years ago. I’m repowering with new modules and inverters. Now we have 1.5X delivered AC output. I’m lucky the original conduits were over sized, otherwise would have to hire the directional bore contractor. > > > > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 2:34 PM jay > wrote: >> Hi David, >> >> I’m curious why you can’t use aluminum wire? >> The only thing I can think of is physical size? >> >> I would look at some on line suppliers. >> I’ve found great pricing at >> >> >> Wire and Cable Distributor >> nassaunationalcable.com >> Wire and Cable Distributor >> nassaunationalcable.com >> >> >>> On Jan 23, 2025, at 11:56 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> I need to place an order for about 19,000 ft of 1/0 copper. The conduits are underground and already existing. They were done via directional bore. If I could use Aluminum wire I would. I can't. >>> Which supplier do you recommend for this quantity? Obviously hoping for a volume discount. Shipping to SF Bay Area, specifically Novato, CA. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 23 19:28:14 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 17:28:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] big copper wire order In-Reply-To: References: <50F1E97E-A185-4F8F-AA4C-0D6BFC67D330@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7251DFB8-8654-44D4-9F75-A23598D4FFE1@gmail.com> got it. I know that 2/0 aluminum is the same physical size as 1/0 copper. But guess you need more than that. That is a big expense for someone! jay > On Jan 23, 2025, at 5:13 PM, david quattro wrote: > > Hi Jay, Yes you nailed it. That is the issue. > The underground conduits were run 12 years ago. I’m repowering with new modules and inverters. Now we have 1.5X delivered AC output. I’m lucky the original conduits were over sized, otherwise would have to hire the directional bore contractor. > > > > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 2:34 PM jay > wrote: >> Hi David, >> >> I’m curious why you can’t use aluminum wire? >> The only thing I can think of is physical size? >> >> I would look at some on line suppliers. >> I’ve found great pricing at >> >> >> Wire and Cable Distributor >> nassaunationalcable.com >> Wire and Cable Distributor >> nassaunationalcable.com >> >> >>> On Jan 23, 2025, at 11:56 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> I need to place an order for about 19,000 ft of 1/0 copper. The conduits are underground and already existing. They were done via directional bore. If I could use Aluminum wire I would. I can't. >>> Which supplier do you recommend for this quantity? Obviously hoping for a volume discount. Shipping to SF Bay Area, specifically Novato, CA. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Jan 23 19:28:37 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 16:28:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower monitoring down? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave and Other Ex-SunPower Dealers - We found that this SunPower fleet management site is still working: https://monitor.sunstrongmonitoring.com/ If you do a little internet searching, it seems like SunStrong may be involved in managing SunPower's fleet of leased systems, so maybe they are keeping it running for that reason. Anyway, it's been working for us for non-lease systems. Best, August Luminalt On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 4:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > At the moment, I cannot seem to be able to get into any of the Sunpower > monitoring sites. mySunpower app seems to work on my phone at the moment, > but not on the computer. Does anyone know if this is permanent, or whether > there is some other hidden way to view the data? > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Jan 23 19:31:26 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 19:31:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge system not working after Tesla installation Message-ID: Hi all, I am going to be checking out a site next week where there is an old Solar Edge system not producing. It stopped working when someone installed a Tesla battery system. I was not part of either installation, but am being called in to get the solar working again. Supposedly the Tesla installer has been back a couple times and could not figure it out. I am guessing that the SolarEdge inverter is the one before the HD Wave, so maybe a SE11400A inverter. I am not a Tesla installer, and not familiar with their equipment. Assuming there are no dumb installation mistakes, does anyone know whether there are any programming nuances that might affect the AC coupling? Or anything else that I maybe should be looking for when troubleshooting this one? Thanks! -Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jan 23 19:49:59 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 19:49:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower monitoring down? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If it's an Enphase-based SunPower system, Enphase has a program to transition owners to their Enlighten portal. The customer pays Enphase directly and their field service techs will install a Gateway and get it programmed to work with the SunPower branded microinverters. I do not believe this retains any history, however. The cost is not inconsequential, but it's essentially necessary to ensure things are working correctly. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 7:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > At the moment, I cannot seem to be able to get into any of the Sunpower > monitoring sites. mySunpower app seems to work on my phone at the moment, > but not on the computer. Does anyone know if this is permanent, or whether > there is some other hidden way to view the data? > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Jan 23 21:37:57 2025 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 19:37:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery monitoring question Message-ID: <005101db6e08$fb040520$f10c0f60$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: Do you know of a remote battery monitor that tells cell voltages? We're looking for a better way to monitor FLA batteries. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Jan 23 22:35:04 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 22:35:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: <3F8DA70B-84E7-40EA-A029-186E4587CAB9@gmail.com> References: <3F8DA70B-84E7-40EA-A029-186E4587CAB9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Steve, I took my scope meter today and checked wave forms at all points. All were clean sine waves. I checked the breaker connections and all connections back to the inverter and all were tight. Voltage drop when pump kicked on was small and only about 1 volt when running. Amp were 12 on both legs. On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 9:48 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Are the amps leg the same? > Jay > > On Jan 22, 2025, at 9:29 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > How do their clocks run? Is the Xfmer quiet down when the generator > runs? > > If you have an O-scope, check the output waveform off the inverter. My > guess is that the output waveform will be deformed, causing extra noise for > the Xfmer. You might be able to see this on the frequency as well. It > should be solid at 60Hz, but if it's drifting or way off the high side, > FETS have probably failed. > > If you pull the top cover off the inverter the and you look at the FET > board, it'll be the fets closest to the Fan on the AC board. > > > > > Steve Higgins > > > > > On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 7:32 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Christopher, >> Update on the Transformer Humming. Installed a new PSX-240 from Kirk and >> it is LOUDER than the T-240 that I took out. >> I have a call into the well driller to see if they have a record of the >> pump size or other details. When connected >> directly to the grid via transfer switch, still loud noise... same with >> battery only. I did not check the 120VAC 30 amp break >> in the backed up loads sub panel. All other wiring was redone as I >> switched the pump directly to the grid until I received the >> new transformer and back to the inverter again. so all the connections >> were redone except the 120 breaker. >> >> John >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 10:30 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> John, >>> If you need a T240 (internal or external), I have a few used ones (and >>> maybe a new one) in storage. >>> Howie >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025, 10:14 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I could be a loose electrical or mechanical connection. It's been >>>> installed for a while and connections could have loosened up from >>>> expansion and contraction. >>>> >>>> On 1/18/2025 9:06 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> > Hi Wrenches, >>>> > I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with the Trace >>>> > T220 transformer for >>>> > her well pump. Recently it has started making a lot of noise when >>>> the >>>> > well pump comes on. >>>> > I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in the >>>> > normal range. I have never had a transformer failure. Could this be >>>> a >>>> > failing transformer? >>>> > >>>> > Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback T240). Are >>>> > there other brands >>>> > some of you may have used for a step up transformer? >>>> > >>>> > John Blittersdorf >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> > >>>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> > >>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> -- >>>> Christopher Warfel, PE >>>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>>> (401) 447-5773 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Jan 23 22:43:54 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 22:43:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: References: <3F8DA70B-84E7-40EA-A029-186E4587CAB9@gmail.com> Message-ID: The only thing I could find in the whole system that was not up to snuff was incomplete separation of neutrals and grounds in the sub-panel. In other words more than one ground to neutral bond. But the fact remains that this system worked flawlessly for 26 years! I also removed the ground wire from the transformer but still no difference. What am I missing? On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 10:35 PM John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > Steve, I took my scope meter today and checked wave forms at all points. > All were clean sine waves. I checked the breaker connections and all > connections back to the inverter and all were tight. > Voltage drop when pump kicked on was small and only about 1 volt when > running. Amp were 12 on both legs. > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 9:48 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Are the amps leg the same? >> Jay >> >> On Jan 22, 2025, at 9:29 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> How do their clocks run? Is the Xfmer quiet down when the generator >> runs? >> >> If you have an O-scope, check the output waveform off the inverter. My >> guess is that the output waveform will be deformed, causing extra noise for >> the Xfmer. You might be able to see this on the frequency as well. It >> should be solid at 60Hz, but if it's drifting or way off the high side, >> FETS have probably failed. >> >> If you pull the top cover off the inverter the and you look at the FET >> board, it'll be the fets closest to the Fan on the AC board. >> >> >> >> >> Steve Higgins >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 7:32 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Christopher, >>> Update on the Transformer Humming. Installed a new PSX-240 from Kirk >>> and it is LOUDER than the T-240 that I took out. >>> I have a call into the well driller to see if they have a record of the >>> pump size or other details. When connected >>> directly to the grid via transfer switch, still loud noise... same with >>> battery only. I did not check the 120VAC 30 amp break >>> in the backed up loads sub panel. All other wiring was redone as I >>> switched the pump directly to the grid until I received the >>> new transformer and back to the inverter again. so all the connections >>> were redone except the 120 breaker. >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 10:30 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> John, >>>> If you need a T240 (internal or external), I have a few used ones (and >>>> maybe a new one) in storage. >>>> Howie >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025, 10:14 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I could be a loose electrical or mechanical connection. It's been >>>>> installed for a while and connections could have loosened up from >>>>> expansion and contraction. >>>>> >>>>> On 1/18/2025 9:06 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> > Hi Wrenches, >>>>> > I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with the Trace >>>>> > T220 transformer for >>>>> > her well pump. Recently it has started making a lot of noise when >>>>> the >>>>> > well pump comes on. >>>>> > I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in the >>>>> > normal range. I have never had a transformer failure. Could this be >>>>> a >>>>> > failing transformer? >>>>> > >>>>> > Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback T240). Are >>>>> > there other brands >>>>> > some of you may have used for a step up transformer? >>>>> > >>>>> > John Blittersdorf >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> > >>>>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>> try the other: >>>>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> > >>>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> -- >>>>> Christopher Warfel, PE >>>>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>>>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>>>> (401) 447-5773 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jan 23 22:46:12 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 19:46:12 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: References: <3F8DA70B-84E7-40EA-A029-186E4587CAB9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ear plugs? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 7:44 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The only thing I could find in the whole system that was not up to snuff > was incomplete separation of neutrals and grounds in the sub-panel. In > other words more than one ground to neutral bond. But the fact remains that > this > system worked flawlessly for 26 years! I also removed the ground wire > from the transformer but still no difference. What am I missing? > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 10:35 PM John Blittersdorf < > john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Steve, I took my scope meter today and checked wave forms at all >> points. All were clean sine waves. I checked the breaker connections and >> all connections back to the inverter and all were tight. >> Voltage drop when pump kicked on was small and only about 1 volt when >> running. Amp were 12 on both legs. >> >> On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 9:48 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Are the amps leg the same? >>> Jay >>> >>> On Jan 22, 2025, at 9:29 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> How do their clocks run? Is the Xfmer quiet down when the generator >>> runs? >>> >>> If you have an O-scope, check the output waveform off the inverter. My >>> guess is that the output waveform will be deformed, causing extra noise for >>> the Xfmer. You might be able to see this on the frequency as well. It >>> should be solid at 60Hz, but if it's drifting or way off the high side, >>> FETS have probably failed. >>> >>> If you pull the top cover off the inverter the and you look at the FET >>> board, it'll be the fets closest to the Fan on the AC board. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Steve Higgins >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 7:32 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Christopher, >>>> Update on the Transformer Humming. Installed a new PSX-240 from Kirk >>>> and it is LOUDER than the T-240 that I took out. >>>> I have a call into the well driller to see if they have a record of the >>>> pump size or other details. When connected >>>> directly to the grid via transfer switch, still loud noise... same with >>>> battery only. I did not check the 120VAC 30 amp break >>>> in the backed up loads sub panel. All other wiring was redone as I >>>> switched the pump directly to the grid until I received the >>>> new transformer and back to the inverter again. so all the connections >>>> were redone except the 120 breaker. >>>> >>>> John >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 10:30 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> John, >>>>> If you need a T240 (internal or external), I have a few used ones (and >>>>> maybe a new one) in storage. >>>>> Howie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025, 10:14 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I could be a loose electrical or mechanical connection. It's been >>>>>> installed for a while and connections could have loosened up from >>>>>> expansion and contraction. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 1/18/2025 9:06 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>> > Hi Wrenches, >>>>>> > I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with the Trace >>>>>> > T220 transformer for >>>>>> > her well pump. Recently it has started making a lot of noise when >>>>>> the >>>>>> > well pump comes on. >>>>>> > I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in the >>>>>> > normal range. I have never had a transformer failure. Could this >>>>>> be a >>>>>> > failing transformer? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback T240). Are >>>>>> > there other brands >>>>>> > some of you may have used for a step up transformer? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > John Blittersdorf >>>>>> > >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>> try the other: >>>>>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Christopher Warfel, PE >>>>>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>>>>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>>>>> (401) 447-5773 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Jan 23 22:57:05 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 19:57:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] big copper wire order In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 19,000 feet? Is that three or four conductors in an overall run for 4-5k feet? Pulling vaults every 3-500'? 4,000' distance is Medium voltage (15Kv) territory. 1/0 becomes #4. If your not set up for big pulls, most of the wire suppliers in the Bay Area will put your runs on Wemco's. Those are multi spool wire reels on stands. Each run will have your 3-5 conductors on a stand. You can off-load them and set them up with a mini-ex at each pull location. Renting a tugger there shouldn't be a problem. You can contact me off-list if you like. Long pulls were my jam for years. On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 2:00 PM Theo Van via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >  >  > I once installed a 2000’ run of 2 x 3/0 copper. > After I was done, a supplier told me there were crews that specialize in > pulling long runs and supply the wire too. I never looked further into, but > might be worth your while asking around. Maybe ask the directional boring > contractor for referral. > > I ended up buying from a large local contractor I knew that got much > better pricing than I could. I saved money and he made money on the deal. > > If you’re pulling downhill don’t let the wire get away from you! > > Let us know how it goes. > > > On Jan 23, 2025, at 10:57 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi All, > I need to place an order for about 19,000 ft of 1/0 copper. The conduits > are underground and already existing. They were done via directional bore. > If I could use Aluminum wire I would. I can't. > Which supplier do you recommend for this quantity? Obviously hoping for > a volume discount. Shipping to SF Bay Area, specifically Novato, CA. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jan 23 23:41:50 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 20:41:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: References: <3F8DA70B-84E7-40EA-A029-186E4587CAB9@gmail.com> Message-ID: John: Sorry, my previous post went out prematurely. The question is: how bad is the noise? I’ve heard buzzing to some degree or another from most transformers. Is the noise level the same without any covers in place? Pumps lose efficiency over time. Could the pump be drawing more power? If there has been regularly service pump efficiency should have been logged. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 7:44 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The only thing I could find in the whole system that was not up to snuff > was incomplete separation of neutrals and grounds in the sub-panel. In > other words more than one ground to neutral bond. But the fact remains that > this > system worked flawlessly for 26 years! I also removed the ground wire > from the transformer but still no difference. What am I missing? > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 10:35 PM John Blittersdorf < > john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Steve, I took my scope meter today and checked wave forms at all >> points. All were clean sine waves. I checked the breaker connections and >> all connections back to the inverter and all were tight. >> Voltage drop when pump kicked on was small and only about 1 volt when >> running. Amp were 12 on both legs. >> >> On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 9:48 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Are the amps leg the same? >>> Jay >>> >>> On Jan 22, 2025, at 9:29 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> How do their clocks run? Is the Xfmer quiet down when the generator >>> runs? >>> >>> If you have an O-scope, check the output waveform off the inverter. My >>> guess is that the output waveform will be deformed, causing extra noise for >>> the Xfmer. You might be able to see this on the frequency as well. It >>> should be solid at 60Hz, but if it's drifting or way off the high side, >>> FETS have probably failed. >>> >>> If you pull the top cover off the inverter the and you look at the FET >>> board, it'll be the fets closest to the Fan on the AC board. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Steve Higgins >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 7:32 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Christopher, >>>> Update on the Transformer Humming. Installed a new PSX-240 from Kirk >>>> and it is LOUDER than the T-240 that I took out. >>>> I have a call into the well driller to see if they have a record of the >>>> pump size or other details. When connected >>>> directly to the grid via transfer switch, still loud noise... same with >>>> battery only. I did not check the 120VAC 30 amp break >>>> in the backed up loads sub panel. All other wiring was redone as I >>>> switched the pump directly to the grid until I received the >>>> new transformer and back to the inverter again. so all the connections >>>> were redone except the 120 breaker. >>>> >>>> John >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 10:30 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> John, >>>>> If you need a T240 (internal or external), I have a few used ones (and >>>>> maybe a new one) in storage. >>>>> Howie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025, 10:14 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I could be a loose electrical or mechanical connection. It's been >>>>>> installed for a while and connections could have loosened up from >>>>>> expansion and contraction. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 1/18/2025 9:06 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>> > Hi Wrenches, >>>>>> > I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with the Trace >>>>>> > T220 transformer for >>>>>> > her well pump. Recently it has started making a lot of noise when >>>>>> the >>>>>> > well pump comes on. >>>>>> > I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in the >>>>>> > normal range. I have never had a transformer failure. Could this >>>>>> be a >>>>>> > failing transformer? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback T240). Are >>>>>> > there other brands >>>>>> > some of you may have used for a step up transformer? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > John Blittersdorf >>>>>> > >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>> try the other: >>>>>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Christopher Warfel, PE >>>>>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>>>>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>>>>> (401) 447-5773 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump3391 at gmail.com Fri Jan 24 08:04:53 2025 From: tump3391 at gmail.com (Blair May) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2025 08:04:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: References: <3F8DA70B-84E7-40EA-A029-186E4587CAB9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0536DFF9-ECAA-44A9-B803-DA614E710502@gmail.com> John we have had quite cold temps here in maine. Have you had this issue over the summer or is this a recent issue? What is the flow rate prior to the check valve at the pressure tank? Remove it from the Check valve at the pressure tank and see if your noise goes away. You checked the basics the only thing that is a constant is the water well /pump (12 A is fine ) either w/ the T former or the grid, OR the plumbing to the tank. Removing the pipe at the pressure tank is easiest and @ -12 here is the warmest option. Tump > On Jan 23, 2025, at 10:43 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > The only thing I could find in the whole system that was not up to snuff was incomplete separation of neutrals and grounds in the sub-panel. In other words more than one ground to neutral bond. But the fact remains that this > system worked flawlessly for 26 years! I also removed the ground wire from the transformer but still no difference. What am I missing? > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 10:35 PM John Blittersdorf > wrote: > Steve, I took my scope meter today and checked wave forms at all points. All were clean sine waves. I checked the breaker connections and all connections back to the inverter and all were tight. > Voltage drop when pump kicked on was small and only about 1 volt when running. Amp were 12 on both legs. > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 9:48 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Are the amps leg the same? > Jay > >> On Jan 22, 2025, at 9:29 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >>  >> How do their clocks run? Is the Xfmer quiet down when the generator runs? >> >> If you have an O-scope, check the output waveform off the inverter. My guess is that the output waveform will be deformed, causing extra noise for the Xfmer. You might be able to see this on the frequency as well. It should be solid at 60Hz, but if it's drifting or way off the high side, FETS have probably failed. >> >> If you pull the top cover off the inverter the and you look at the FET board, it'll be the fets closest to the Fan on the AC board. >> >> >> >> >> Steve Higgins >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 7:32 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Christopher, >> Update on the Transformer Humming. Installed a new PSX-240 from Kirk and it is LOUDER than the T-240 that I took out. >> I have a call into the well driller to see if they have a record of the pump size or other details. When connected >> directly to the grid via transfer switch, still loud noise... same with battery only. I did not check the 120VAC 30 amp break >> in the backed up loads sub panel. All other wiring was redone as I switched the pump directly to the grid until I received the >> new transformer and back to the inverter again. so all the connections were redone except the 120 breaker. >> >> John >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 10:30 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> John, >> If you need a T240 (internal or external), I have a few used ones (and maybe a new one) in storage. >> Howie >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025, 10:14 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> I could be a loose electrical or mechanical connection. It's been >> installed for a while and connections could have loosened up from >> expansion and contraction. >> >> On 1/18/2025 9:06 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: >> > Hi Wrenches, >> > I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with the Trace >> > T220 transformer for >> > her well pump. Recently it has started making a lot of noise when the >> > well pump comes on. >> > I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in the >> > normal range. I have never had a transformer failure. Could this be a >> > failing transformer? >> > >> > Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback T240). Are >> > there other brands >> > some of you may have used for a step up transformer? >> > >> > John Blittersdorf >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> -- >> Christopher Warfel, PE >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> (401) 447-5773 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Blair “TUMP” May Solarwinds Northernlights east "We must all learn to live together as brothers, or we all will perish as fools." MLK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 24 08:59:30 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2025 06:59:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: <0536DFF9-ECAA-44A9-B803-DA614E710502@gmail.com> References: <0536DFF9-ECAA-44A9-B803-DA614E710502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9C9D4C9F-D0EC-46B2-930A-1E6F116804A1@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Jan 24 09:02:04 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2025 06:02:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: References: <3F8DA70B-84E7-40EA-A029-186E4587CAB9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, John, that's strikes 1,2 and 3 for me; I can't think of anything else causing the noise. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 7:36 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Steve, I took my scope meter today and checked wave forms at all points. > All were clean sine waves. I checked the breaker connections and all > connections back to the inverter and all were tight. > Voltage drop when pump kicked on was small and only about 1 volt when > running. Amp were 12 on both legs. > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 9:48 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Are the amps leg the same? >> Jay >> >> On Jan 22, 2025, at 9:29 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> How do their clocks run? Is the Xfmer quiet down when the generator >> runs? >> >> If you have an O-scope, check the output waveform off the inverter. My >> guess is that the output waveform will be deformed, causing extra noise for >> the Xfmer. You might be able to see this on the frequency as well. It >> should be solid at 60Hz, but if it's drifting or way off the high side, >> FETS have probably failed. >> >> If you pull the top cover off the inverter the and you look at the FET >> board, it'll be the fets closest to the Fan on the AC board. >> >> >> >> >> Steve Higgins >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 7:32 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Christopher, >>> Update on the Transformer Humming. Installed a new PSX-240 from Kirk >>> and it is LOUDER than the T-240 that I took out. >>> I have a call into the well driller to see if they have a record of the >>> pump size or other details. When connected >>> directly to the grid via transfer switch, still loud noise... same with >>> battery only. I did not check the 120VAC 30 amp break >>> in the backed up loads sub panel. All other wiring was redone as I >>> switched the pump directly to the grid until I received the >>> new transformer and back to the inverter again. so all the connections >>> were redone except the 120 breaker. >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 10:30 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> John, >>>> If you need a T240 (internal or external), I have a few used ones (and >>>> maybe a new one) in storage. >>>> Howie >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025, 10:14 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I could be a loose electrical or mechanical connection. It's been >>>>> installed for a while and connections could have loosened up from >>>>> expansion and contraction. >>>>> >>>>> On 1/18/2025 9:06 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> > Hi Wrenches, >>>>> > I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with the Trace >>>>> > T220 transformer for >>>>> > her well pump. Recently it has started making a lot of noise when >>>>> the >>>>> > well pump comes on. >>>>> > I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in the >>>>> > normal range. I have never had a transformer failure. Could this be >>>>> a >>>>> > failing transformer? >>>>> > >>>>> > Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback T240). Are >>>>> > there other brands >>>>> > some of you may have used for a step up transformer? >>>>> > >>>>> > John Blittersdorf >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> > >>>>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>> try the other: >>>>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> > >>>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> -- >>>>> Christopher Warfel, PE >>>>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>>>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>>>> (401) 447-5773 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Jan 24 09:04:23 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2025 14:04:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120-240 Transformer loud vibration and humming. In-Reply-To: References: <3F8DA70B-84E7-40EA-A029-186E4587CAB9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5562C557-0CDE-436E-B52A-3692543E9CD9@solarwork.com> Years ago, I remember hearing an outback 240 V transformer making all sorts of noise on an old well pump like 30+ years old when the pump was replaced, the transformer calm down that would be my vote Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 On Jan 24, 2025, at 7:02 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches wrote:  Well, John, that's strikes 1,2 and 3 for me; I can't think of anything else causing the noise. [https://i.imgur.com/YIluKhq.png] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/facebook_square_gray-24.png][http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/youtube_square_gray-24.png][http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/linkedin_square_gray-24.png][https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/instagram_square-24.png] ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ________________________________ On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 7:36 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: Steve, I took my scope meter today and checked wave forms at all points. All were clean sine waves. I checked the breaker connections and all connections back to the inverter and all were tight. Voltage drop when pump kicked on was small and only about 1 volt when running. Amp were 12 on both legs. On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 9:48 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Are the amps leg the same? Jay On Jan 22, 2025, at 9:29 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches > wrote:  How do their clocks run? Is the Xfmer quiet down when the generator runs? If you have an O-scope, check the output waveform off the inverter. My guess is that the output waveform will be deformed, causing extra noise for the Xfmer. You might be able to see this on the frequency as well. It should be solid at 60Hz, but if it's drifting or way off the high side, FETS have probably failed. If you pull the top cover off the inverter the and you look at the FET board, it'll be the fets closest to the Fan on the AC board. Steve Higgins On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 7:32 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: Christopher, Update on the Transformer Humming. Installed a new PSX-240 from Kirk and it is LOUDER than the T-240 that I took out. I have a call into the well driller to see if they have a record of the pump size or other details. When connected directly to the grid via transfer switch, still loud noise... same with battery only. I did not check the 120VAC 30 amp break in the backed up loads sub panel. All other wiring was redone as I switched the pump directly to the grid until I received the new transformer and back to the inverter again. so all the connections were redone except the 120 breaker. John On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 10:30 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: John, If you need a T240 (internal or external), I have a few used ones (and maybe a new one) in storage. Howie On Wed, Jan 22, 2025, 10:14 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: I could be a loose electrical or mechanical connection. It's been installed for a while and connections could have loosened up from expansion and contraction. On 1/18/2025 9:06 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > I have a customer with an SW4024 installed in 2003 with the Trace > T220 transformer for > her well pump. Recently it has started making a lot of noise when the > well pump comes on. > I checked the current on the well pump and it seems to be in the > normal range. I have never had a transformer failure. Could this be a > failing transformer? > > Also, I have not been able to source a new one (Outback T240). Are > there other brands > some of you may have used for a step up transformer? > > John Blittersdorf > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Fri Jan 24 14:11:58 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2025 11:11:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 210-0015-1Test (AC board) problem Message-ID: Greetings Wrenches, The other day I replaced a client's melted AC board with a refurbished/repaired board from Kris Stone and immediately got an AC In frequency too high warning along with an AC In voltage too high warning. Both warnings with the grid input breaker off. Other than the warnings all other functions appeared to be working normally and I just instructed client to keep an eye on things while I investigate further. This particular site has been utilizing HBX mode successfully for years but about 30 hours after I left the client said the inverter turned off due to hitting the LVD setpoint. HBX mode is still enabled. I've not made a trip back yet since it's a bit far but instructed the client to select "USE" instead of "DROP" but we found that it will not connect to the grid and the AC In LED continues to blink as well as of course the red error light still blinking indicating the "Warning". I'm thinking I just need to order a new board from Zonna but before I do I was just wondering how well other's repaired boards by Kris has worked out for you? I do have one more repaired AC board from him along with other variants but at this point a second failure would be too costly so I'm planning on just eating it and purchasing the new one. Not trying to throw any negativity towards Kris but since this is the first time I've re-installed a repaired board I figured I'd poll others experience. Maybe successful board repairs are hit and miss? Also to confirm, it makes sense that the inverter did not reconnect to the grid due to it thinking that the grid voltage and frequency are too high? HBX mode just like the other modes does in fact abide by these parameters to sync with the grid correct? It won't pass-through grid power either? I did confirm they are erroneous AC warnings while on site. Thanks for any input, enjoy your weekend, Nick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Fri Jan 24 17:31:38 2025 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2025 22:31:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 13 YR Old Modules with cracking backsheets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Following up on this, the manufacturer has stated that this is a known issue for a run of modules they had back in the summer of 2012. It's called chalking and the back sheets are degrading faster than what is typical, and unfortunately these modules are out of their 10 year workmanship warranty. Eventually the glass breaks and the performance drops but you cannot make a performance warranty claim on a damaged module. So essentially the manufacturer appears to have waited until the 10 year workmanship warranty was up before notifying customers about this issue leaving them with no options. David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems 917-848-0215 718-389-1545 dbuckner at solaresystems.com www.solaresystems.com 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 The information contained in this email message, including any attached files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank you. From: David Buckner Sent: Monday, January 13, 2025 12:14 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: 13 YR Old Modules with cracking backsheets Hi All, We have discovered quite a few modules at a particular site that are showing cracking in the back sheets. It appears these modules are not underperforming yet, but we assume it's a matter of time before they all water and start causing the glass to shatter. Some of the modules at this site are at that shattered glass stage. I'm assuming we should thermal image and keep an eye on potential hotspots, but any other advice would be great to hear. Full removal isn't out of the question, but this is about 40% of a 1MW rooftop system. [cid:image001.jpg at 01DB6E87.E9896EA0] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18571 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image271087.png Type: image/png Size: 40037 bytes Desc: image271087.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image321405.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: image321405.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image859960.png Type: image/png Size: 596 bytes Desc: image859960.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image154236.png Type: image/png Size: 499 bytes Desc: image154236.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image630233.png Type: image/png Size: 804 bytes Desc: image630233.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image906125.png Type: image/png Size: 608 bytes Desc: image906125.png URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Fri Jan 24 17:54:24 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2025 14:54:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 13 YR Old Modules with cracking backsheets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I''ve got multiple Q.Cell 235 watt module sites with the same issue and some are even shattering. Noticed it on a Canadian Solar project from 2014 as well. I don't care that the new products are entirely different and produced at different facilities, I'll never use products from either manufacturer again. Nick On Fri, Jan 24, 2025 at 2:32 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Following up on this, the manufacturer has stated that this is a known > issue for a run of modules they had back in the summer of 2012. It’s > called chalking and the back sheets are degrading faster than what is > typical, and unfortunately these modules are out of their 10 year > workmanship warranty. Eventually the glass breaks and the performance > drops but you cannot make a performance warranty claim on a damaged > module. So essentially the manufacturer appears to have waited until the > 10 year workmanship warranty was up before notifying customers about this > issue leaving them with no options. > > > > David Buckner​​​​ > > President > > Solar Energy Systems > > 917-848-0215 > > 718-389-1545 > > dbuckner at solaresystems.com > > www.solaresystems.com > > > 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 > > The information contained in this email message, including any attached > files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is > intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the > intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal > information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, > the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby > notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward > this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured > or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, > destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender > therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the > contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail > transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the > sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank > you. > > *From:* David Buckner > *Sent:* Monday, January 13, 2025 12:14 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* 13 YR Old Modules with cracking backsheets > > > > Hi All, > > > > We have discovered quite a few modules at a particular site that are > showing cracking in the back sheets. It appears these modules are not > underperforming yet, but we assume it’s a matter of time before they all > water and start causing the glass to shatter. Some of the modules at this > site are at that shattered glass stage. I’m assuming we should thermal > image and keep an eye on potential hotspots, but any other advice would be > great to hear. Full removal isn’t out of the question, but this is about > 40% of a 1MW rooftop system. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18571 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image271087.png Type: image/png Size: 40037 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image321405.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image859960.png Type: image/png Size: 596 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image154236.png Type: image/png Size: 499 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image630233.png Type: image/png Size: 804 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image906125.png Type: image/png Size: 608 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 14:55:54 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2025 12:55:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question Message-ID: HI All I’m working with a customer who’s pretty savvy and is using PV watts for his design. What I can’t figure out is the kwh/year goes down if he uses dc/ac ration of 1.5 instead of 1.2 which is the default. Hes in Santa Fe NM. .8 ratio= 1663 kwh/yr 1.0 ratio = 1668 kwh/yr 1.2 ratio = 1671 kwh/yr 1.5 ratio = 1623 kwh/yr I was expecting that more PV = more kWh/yr. What am i missing? standard module fixed roof mount 14.08 loss’s 10 degree tilt 180 degrees jay From George.McClellan at recgroup.com Mon Jan 27 15:20:22 2025 From: George.McClellan at recgroup.com (George McClellan) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2025 20:20:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Probably due to clipping. The panels are generating more energy than the power electronics can process, so that excess energy gets cut off (or clipped). It looks like a 1.2 ratio is optimal. George McClellan | Senior Manager, Technical Sales | REC Americas LLC 735 Tank Farm Rd Ste 130 | San Luis Obispo, CA |93401 Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, January 27, 2025 11:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: jay Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments. HI All I’m working with a customer who’s pretty savvy and is using PV watts for his design. What I can’t figure out is the kwh/year goes down if he uses dc/ac ration of 1.5 instead of 1.2 which is the default. Hes in Santa Fe NM. .8 ratio= 1663 kwh/yr 1.0 ratio = 1668 kwh/yr 1.2 ratio = 1671 kwh/yr 1.5 ratio = 1623 kwh/yr I was expecting that more PV = more kWh/yr. What am i missing? standard module fixed roof mount 14.08 loss’s 10 degree tilt 180 degrees jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ________________________________ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. ________________________________ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Mon Jan 27 15:25:01 2025 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2025 20:25:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are they adjusting the DC system size field along with the DC to AC ratio? If not, they are just changing the inverter size without changing array size, and then at 1.5 the clipping is coming in to reduce the yield at the highest ratio. Mike Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America +1 916 918 9412 SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, January 27, 2025 12:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: jay Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question HI All I'm working with a customer who's pretty savvy and is using PV watts for his design. What I can't figure out is the kwh/year goes down if he uses dc/ac ration of 1.5 instead of 1.2 which is the default. Hes in Santa Fe NM. .8 ratio= 1663 kwh/yr 1.0 ratio = 1668 kwh/yr 1.2 ratio = 1671 kwh/yr 1.5 ratio = 1623 kwh/yr I was expecting that more PV = more kWh/yr. What am i missing? standard module fixed roof mount 14.08 loss's 10 degree tilt 180 degrees jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org/ List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ From august at luminalt.com Mon Jan 27 15:28:47 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2025 12:28:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay, Per your note, annual kWh production should go up as you add more modules to a project, even if you are increasing the DC/AC ratio. I wonder if the metric you are reporting out is kWh per kWp per year, or specific yield? https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2017/08/specific-yield-overview/ -August On Mon, Jan 27, 2025 at 11:56 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All > > I’m working with a customer who’s pretty savvy and is using PV watts for > his design. > > What I can’t figure out is the kwh/year goes down if he uses dc/ac ration > of 1.5 instead of 1.2 which is the default. > > Hes in Santa Fe NM. > > .8 ratio= 1663 kwh/yr > 1.0 ratio = 1668 kwh/yr > 1.2 ratio = 1671 kwh/yr > 1.5 ratio = 1623 kwh/yr > > I was expecting that more PV = more kWh/yr. > > What am i missing? > > > standard module > fixed roof mount > 14.08 loss’s > 10 degree tilt > 180 degrees > > > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Mon Jan 27 15:35:03 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2025 12:35:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay you are right - that doesn’t make sense because with more PV, the system will reach “max AC out“ power sooner every morning and hold it longer into the evening On Mon, Jan 27, 2025 at 12:20 PM George McClellan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Probably due to clipping. The panels are generating more energy than the > power electronics can process, so that excess energy gets cut off (or > clipped). It looks like a 1.2 ratio is optimal. > > George McClellan | Senior Manager, Technical Sales | REC Americas LLC > 735 Tank Farm Rd Ste 130 | San Luis Obispo, CA |93401 > > Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 > www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of jay via RE-wrenches > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2025 11:56 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: jay > Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question > > Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care > when clicking links or opening attachments. > > > HI All > > I’m working with a customer who’s pretty savvy and is using PV watts for > his design. > > What I can’t figure out is the kwh/year goes down if he uses dc/ac ration > of 1.5 instead of 1.2 which is the default. > > Hes in Santa Fe NM. > > .8 ratio= 1663 kwh/yr > 1.0 ratio = 1668 kwh/yr > 1.2 ratio = 1671 kwh/yr > 1.5 ratio = 1623 kwh/yr > > I was expecting that more PV = more kWh/yr. > > What am i missing? > > > standard module > fixed roof mount > 14.08 loss’s > 10 degree tilt > 180 degrees > > > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ________________________________ > > This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any > unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this > message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please > notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. > > ________________________________ > > This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any > unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this > message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please > notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 15:42:42 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2025 13:42:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI David, My point exactly. > On Jan 27, 2025, at 1:35 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jay you are right - that doesn’t make sense because with more PV, the system will reach “max AC out“ power sooner every morning and hold it longer into the evening > > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2025 at 12:20 PM George McClellan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Probably due to clipping. The panels are generating more energy than the power electronics can process, so that excess energy gets cut off (or clipped). It looks like a 1.2 ratio is optimal. >> >> George McClellan | Senior Manager, Technical Sales | REC Americas LLC >> 735 Tank Farm Rd Ste 130 | San Luis Obispo, CA |93401 >> Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 >> www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches >> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2025 11:56 AM >> To: RE-wrenches > >> Cc: jay > >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question >> >> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments. >> >> >> HI All >> >> I’m working with a customer who’s pretty savvy and is using PV watts for his design. >> >> What I can’t figure out is the kwh/year goes down if he uses dc/ac ration of 1.5 instead of 1.2 which is the default. >> >> Hes in Santa Fe NM. >> >> .8 ratio= 1663 kwh/yr >> 1.0 ratio = 1668 kwh/yr >> 1.2 ratio = 1671 kwh/yr >> 1.5 ratio = 1623 kwh/yr >> >> I was expecting that more PV = more kWh/yr. >> >> What am i missing? >> >> >> standard module >> fixed roof mount >> 14.08 loss’s >> 10 degree tilt >> 180 degrees >> >> >> >> jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. >> >> ________________________________ >> >> This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 16:02:48 2025 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2025 14:02:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree with Mike, because you can't change the inverter size in PVwatts* directly, i*t is just a percentage of the array size based on what ratio you choose. So if you change the ratio you aren't increasing the array size. So that 1 kW array in your example values is paired with an 660 watt inverter at 1.5 ratio in the program. On Mon, Jan 27, 2025 at 1:44 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI David, > > My point exactly. > > > > On Jan 27, 2025, at 1:35 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jay you are right - that doesn’t make sense because with more PV, the > system will reach “max AC out“ power sooner every morning and hold it > longer into the evening > > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2025 at 12:20 PM George McClellan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Probably due to clipping. The panels are generating more energy than the >> power electronics can process, so that excess energy gets cut off (or >> clipped). It looks like a 1.2 ratio is optimal. >> >> George McClellan | Senior Manager, Technical Sales | REC Americas LLC >> 735 Tank Farm Rd Ste 130 | San Luis Obispo, CA |93401 >> >> Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 >> www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf >> Of jay via RE-wrenches >> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2025 11:56 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: jay >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question >> >> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care >> when clicking links or opening attachments. >> >> >> HI All >> >> I’m working with a customer who’s pretty savvy and is using PV watts for >> his design. >> >> What I can’t figure out is the kwh/year goes down if he uses dc/ac ration >> of 1.5 instead of 1.2 which is the default. >> >> Hes in Santa Fe NM. >> >> .8 ratio= 1663 kwh/yr >> 1.0 ratio = 1668 kwh/yr >> 1.2 ratio = 1671 kwh/yr >> 1.5 ratio = 1623 kwh/yr >> >> I was expecting that more PV = more kWh/yr. >> >> What am i missing? >> >> >> standard module >> fixed roof mount >> 14.08 loss’s >> 10 degree tilt >> 180 degrees >> >> >> >> jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any >> unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this >> message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please >> notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. >> >> ________________________________ >> >> This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any >> unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this >> message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please >> notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon Jan 27 19:36:23 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2025 19:36:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If anything, I'd be surprised that a 1.2 ratio is better than a 1.0 ratio. Although, maybe the fact that an inverter is generally more efficient when loaded closer to its rating compensates for some of the clipping with a higher DC to AC ratio. On Mon, Jan 27, 2025, 4:04 PM Rebekah Hren via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I agree with Mike, because you can't change the inverter size in PVwatts* > directly, i*t is just a percentage of the array size based on what ratio > you choose. So if you change the ratio you aren't increasing the array > size. > > So that 1 kW array in your example values is paired with an 660 watt > inverter at 1.5 ratio in the program. > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2025 at 1:44 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> HI David, >> >> My point exactly. >> >> >> >> On Jan 27, 2025, at 1:35 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Jay you are right - that doesn’t make sense because with more PV, the >> system will reach “max AC out“ power sooner every morning and hold it >> longer into the evening >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 27, 2025 at 12:20 PM George McClellan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Probably due to clipping. The panels are generating more energy than >>> the power electronics can process, so that excess energy gets cut off (or >>> clipped). It looks like a 1.2 ratio is optimal. >>> >>> George McClellan | Senior Manager, Technical Sales | REC Americas LLC >>> 735 Tank Farm Rd Ste 130 | San Luis Obispo, CA |93401 >>> >>> Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 >>> www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf >>> Of jay via RE-wrenches >>> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2025 11:56 AM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Cc: jay >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question >>> >>> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take >>> care when clicking links or opening attachments. >>> >>> >>> HI All >>> >>> I’m working with a customer who’s pretty savvy and is using PV watts for >>> his design. >>> >>> What I can’t figure out is the kwh/year goes down if he uses dc/ac >>> ration of 1.5 instead of 1.2 which is the default. >>> >>> Hes in Santa Fe NM. >>> >>> .8 ratio= 1663 kwh/yr >>> 1.0 ratio = 1668 kwh/yr >>> 1.2 ratio = 1671 kwh/yr >>> 1.5 ratio = 1623 kwh/yr >>> >>> I was expecting that more PV = more kWh/yr. >>> >>> What am i missing? >>> >>> >>> standard module >>> fixed roof mount >>> 14.08 loss’s >>> 10 degree tilt >>> 180 degrees >>> >>> >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any >>> unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this >>> message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please >>> notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any >>> unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this >>> message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please >>> notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 20:41:00 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2025 17:41:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting topic, what l am seeing is over throttling which will potentially contribute to mid day clipping. Many inverters now can be overdriven by as much as 200% but the inverter will only produce it's rated output and 150% well that's right in there. But hey what do l know. Looking forward to other ideas Fun times On Mon, Jan 27, 2025, 11:56 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All > > I’m working with a customer who’s pretty savvy and is using PV watts for > his design. > > What I can’t figure out is the kwh/year goes down if he uses dc/ac ration > of 1.5 instead of 1.2 which is the default. > > Hes in Santa Fe NM. > > .8 ratio= 1663 kwh/yr > 1.0 ratio = 1668 kwh/yr > 1.2 ratio = 1671 kwh/yr > 1.5 ratio = 1623 kwh/yr > > I was expecting that more PV = more kWh/yr. > > What am i missing? > > > standard module > fixed roof mount > 14.08 loss’s > 10 degree tilt > 180 degrees > > > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Mon Jan 27 20:56:43 2025 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2025 01:56:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We design around a 1.3 to 1.4 DC to AC ratio these days. We do see others going higher but that's generally for multi-MW ground mount systems when utility interconnection upgrade costs can make big leaps as the AC capacity gets higher. Back when an Astropower module was 4 bucks a watt, you'd never consider it, but at today's prices you can deal with a couple percent overall efficiency drop and still have better economics. I also agree that the PV Watts run is actually KWH/KWp/YR. David David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems 917-848-0215 718-389-1545 dbuckner at solaresystems.com www.solaresystems.com 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 The information contained in this email message, including any attached files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, January 27, 2025 8:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jerry Shafer Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question CAUTION: External Email. Interesting topic, what l am seeing is over throttling which will potentially contribute to mid day clipping. Many inverters now can be overdriven by as much as 200% but the inverter will only produce it's rated output and 150% well that's right in there. But hey what do l know. Looking forward to other ideas Fun times On Mon, Jan 27, 2025, 11:56 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: HI All I’m working with a customer who’s pretty savvy and is using PV watts for his design. What I can’t figure out is the kwh/year goes down if he uses dc/ac ration of 1.5 instead of 1.2 which is the default. Hes in Santa Fe NM. .8 ratio= 1663 kwh/yr 1.0 ratio = 1668 kwh/yr 1.2 ratio = 1671 kwh/yr 1.5 ratio = 1623 kwh/yr I was expecting that more PV = more kWh/yr. What am i missing? standard module fixed roof mount 14.08 loss’s 10 degree tilt 180 degrees jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image886696.png Type: image/png Size: 40037 bytes Desc: image886696.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image786912.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: image786912.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image617989.png Type: image/png Size: 596 bytes Desc: image617989.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image170532.png Type: image/png Size: 499 bytes Desc: image170532.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image238349.png Type: image/png Size: 804 bytes Desc: image238349.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image268732.png Type: image/png Size: 608 bytes Desc: image268732.png URL: From atersol at gmail.com Mon Jan 27 22:48:51 2025 From: atersol at gmail.com (Antony Tersol) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2025 19:48:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question Message-ID: As Mike pointed out, in PV watts one sets the DC size, and cannot explicitly set the inverter capacity. Changing the DC/AC ratio from 1.2 to 1.5 is implicitly decreasing the inverter max output by 20%. Example: DC 4.8 kW DC/AC ratio 1.2 => inverter is 4 kW DC/AC ratio 1.5 => inverter is 3.2 kW Smaller inverter = more clipping DC/AC ratio 1.0 / 0.8 => inverter is 4.8 / 6.0 kW Less production because of inverter efficiency curve - inverter efficiency varies with load. Antony Tersol -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Jan 27 22:53:15 2025 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2025 19:53:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2DEA3D6B-9FD4-4B1A-A26F-D4DEA5557C66@villagepowerdesign.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Jan 27 23:03:54 2025 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2025 20:03:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question In-Reply-To: <2DEA3D6B-9FD4-4B1A-A26F-D4DEA5557C66@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <2DEA3D6B-9FD4-4B1A-A26F-D4DEA5557C66@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <6000982E-F035-4538-AE6F-6D82FED00FA0@villagepowerdesign.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jan 28 00:21:26 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2025 21:21:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question In-Reply-To: <6000982E-F035-4538-AE6F-6D82FED00FA0@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <2DEA3D6B-9FD4-4B1A-A26F-D4DEA5557C66@villagepowerdesign.com> <6000982E-F035-4538-AE6F-6D82FED00FA0@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, So MPPT,s working at high voltage high and high current with even with the electronic switching you will generate heat and over time heat kills Fun times On Mon, Jan 27, 2025, 8:04 PM Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Ahh I see the light now on the inverter size point. Still I wonder if all > MPPts are made equal in terms if they ability to clip high ratios with no > ill-effects. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 27, 2025, at 7:55 PM, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > > Yes I’ve wondered about this too and there is much debate on forums etc > about exactly how this works. > > Large PV plants have long used 1.4 order of magnitude ratios to maximize > economics (but much of that was under “per watt” incentives rather than > performance based incentives). > > However I’ve long wondered what the true effect of red-lining MPPTs is. > I’ve seen it as more of a lifetime issue but I wonder that if you consider > overheating of the circuit if we might actually be clipping more than just > squaring the top off the curve. Perhaps PVWatts modeled this? They are > pretty thorough there at NREL. Or perhaps they have a bug or sloppy > programming. It would be worth asking them. Anyone got a buddy at NREL we > can ask? > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 27, 2025, at 12:43 PM, jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > HI David, > > My point exactly. > > > > On Jan 27, 2025, at 1:35 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jay you are right - that doesn’t make sense because with more PV, the > system will reach “max AC out“ power sooner every morning and hold it > longer into the evening > > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2025 at 12:20 PM George McClellan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Probably due to clipping. The panels are generating more energy than the >> power electronics can process, so that excess energy gets cut off (or >> clipped). It looks like a 1.2 ratio is optimal. >> >> George McClellan | Senior Manager, Technical Sales | REC Americas LLC >> 735 Tank Farm Rd Ste 130 | San Luis Obispo, CA |93401 >> >> Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 >> www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf >> Of jay via RE-wrenches >> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2025 11:56 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: jay >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question >> >> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care >> when clicking links or opening attachments. >> >> >> HI All >> >> I’m working with a customer who’s pretty savvy and is using PV watts for >> his design. >> >> What I can’t figure out is the kwh/year goes down if he uses dc/ac ration >> of 1.5 instead of 1.2 which is the default. >> >> Hes in Santa Fe NM. >> >> .8 ratio= 1663 kwh/yr >> 1.0 ratio = 1668 kwh/yr >> 1.2 ratio = 1671 kwh/yr >> 1.5 ratio = 1623 kwh/yr >> >> I was expecting that more PV = more kWh/yr. >> >> What am i missing? >> >> >> standard module >> fixed roof mount >> 14.08 loss’s >> 10 degree tilt >> 180 degrees >> >> >> >> jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any >> unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this >> message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please >> notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. >> >> ________________________________ >> >> This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any >> unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this >> message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please >> notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Tue Jan 28 13:29:42 2025 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2025 18:29:42 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question In-Reply-To: References: <2DEA3D6B-9FD4-4B1A-A26F-D4DEA5557C66@villagepowerdesign.com> <6000982E-F035-4538-AE6F-6D82FED00FA0@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Most modern string inverters have a DC-DC boost phase to allow a wide DC voltage operation. Whatever voltage the inverter side works at is where the inverter will be most efficient, and thus generate less heat. So it is not really accurate to say high voltage is worse than low voltage for the “heat kills” concern (which I agree with). The same is true for DC-DC optimizers – they contain a boost/buck circuit that has an optimum efficiency point in the midrange of the DC operating voltage... Current a bit more complicated but generally efficiency curves for inverters are pretty flat above 10-15% loading. Obviously the same efficiency operation generates more heat when processing more power – so good thermal design matters. And removing as much power conversion equipment from under the array should help reduce thermal load and cycling too (but that is definitely a biased opinion =) ) Mike Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America +1 916 918 9412 SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings [cid:image001.jpg at 01DB7176.DEABC400] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, January 27, 2025 10:21 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jerry Shafer Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question Wrenches, So MPPT,s working at high voltage high and high current with even with the electronic switching you will generate heat and over time heat kills Fun times On Mon, Jan 27, 2025, 8:04 PM Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches > wrote: Ahh I see the light now on the inverter size point. Still I wonder if all MPPts are made equal in terms if they ability to clip high ratios with no ill-effects. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 27, 2025, at 7:55 PM, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: Yes I’ve wondered about this too and there is much debate on forums etc about exactly how this works. Large PV plants have long used 1.4 order of magnitude ratios to maximize economics (but much of that was under “per watt” incentives rather than performance based incentives). However I’ve long wondered what the true effect of red-lining MPPTs is. I’ve seen it as more of a lifetime issue but I wonder that if you consider overheating of the circuit if we might actually be clipping more than just squaring the top off the curve. Perhaps PVWatts modeled this? They are pretty thorough there at NREL. Or perhaps they have a bug or sloppy programming. It would be worth asking them. Anyone got a buddy at NREL we can ask? Sent from my iPhone On Jan 27, 2025, at 12:43 PM, jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: HI David, My point exactly. On Jan 27, 2025, at 1:35 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: Jay you are right - that doesn’t make sense because with more PV, the system will reach “max AC out“ power sooner every morning and hold it longer into the evening On Mon, Jan 27, 2025 at 12:20 PM George McClellan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Probably due to clipping. The panels are generating more energy than the power electronics can process, so that excess energy gets cut off (or clipped). It looks like a 1.2 ratio is optimal. George McClellan | Senior Manager, Technical Sales | REC Americas LLC 735 Tank Farm Rd Ste 130 | San Luis Obispo, CA |93401 Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, January 27, 2025 11:56 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: jay > Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV watts question Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments. HI All I’m working with a customer who’s pretty savvy and is using PV watts for his design. What I can’t figure out is the kwh/year goes down if he uses dc/ac ration of 1.5 instead of 1.2 which is the default. Hes in Santa Fe NM. .8 ratio= 1663 kwh/yr 1.0 ratio = 1668 kwh/yr 1.2 ratio = 1671 kwh/yr 1.5 ratio = 1623 kwh/yr I was expecting that more PV = more kWh/yr. What am i missing? standard module fixed roof mount 14.08 loss’s 10 degree tilt 180 degrees jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ________________________________ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. ________________________________ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 58870 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Tue Jan 28 15:32:34 2025 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2025 20:32:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Ground To Steel Frame Message-ID: Folks, I am going to have a steel frame for my stand alone power supply to be dropped on the ground out in the elements. I was planning to weld a stainless bolt to the mild steel frame to provide a corrosion resistant point of connection. I am getting a lot of push back on this. What are other folks do to create a connection for a system grounding electrode conductor on a piece of equipment like this? Thanks, Mark Frye -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Jan 28 16:19:57 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2025 13:19:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Ground To Steel Frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe use one of these direct-burial ground clamps (that are made of bronze w/ stainless hardware)? https://www.homedepot.com/p/NSi-Industries-Heavy-Duty-Direct-Burial-Ground-Clamp-with-Lay-In-10-2-STR-GLC-12DB/307286461 The galvanic corrosion between stainless steel and mild steel is probably the concern. https://www.rmmcia.com/blog/brass-and-copper/metal-compatibility-galvanic-corrosion -August On Tue, Jan 28, 2025 at 12:32 PM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Folks, > > > > I am going to have a steel frame for my stand alone power supply to be > dropped on the ground out in the elements. > > > > I was planning to weld a stainless bolt to the mild steel frame to provide > a corrosion resistant point of connection. > > > > I am getting a lot of push back on this. > > > > What are other folks do to create a connection for a system grounding > electrode conductor on a piece of equipment like this? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mark Frye > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Jan 28 16:33:39 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2025 14:33:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Ground To Steel Frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ccc9944-f3d2-465a-90b8-3100b86254ce@solarray.com> I would add to the push  back of welding an SS bolt to mild steel.  Welding stainless takes special welding wire and shielding gas, and is tricky. Even with the right welding setup, it probably will not bond to the mild steel, and will just break off when you try to put any torque on the bolt. Better options would be to drill and tap a hole into the steel (1/4-20 thread would be good)  Or just drill a hole, and use star washers with a bolt and nut to bite into metal. I would also use a mechanical lug or even a small ground buss, so that you can connect multiple ground wires to the connection point.  A third option which I use is a fine thread self tapping screw to mount the lug or buss.  I've put these into 3/8" thick steel poles. Regular self tappers will not work, it needs to have the fine thread like in the pic. They're hard to find, but a good bolt supply should have them. Hex Head Self Tapping Screws Ray Walters Remote Solar On 1/28/2025 1:32 PM, Mark Frye via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Folks, > > I am going to have a steel frame for my stand alone power supply to be > dropped on the ground out in the elements. > > I was planning to weld a stainless bolt to the mild steel frame to > provide a corrosion resistant point of connection. > > I am getting a lot of push back on this. > > What are other folks do to create a connection for a system grounding > electrode conductor on a piece of equipment like this? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Jan 28 18:59:02 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2025 23:59:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Ground To Steel Frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is anything to be buried? Concrete? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Mark Frye via RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Ground To Steel Frame Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2025 20:32:34 +0000 Size: 11707 URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 28 19:31:04 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2025 17:31:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Ground To Steel Frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jan 28 19:50:21 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2025 16:50:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Ground To Steel Frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark: Your question is kind of vague and this makes it hard to answer: Who is pushing back and what are they pushing back about? What is your “stand alone power supply” comprised of and what will it be connected to? Lacking specifics, I will try to provide some generic advice. In cases like this I fall back on two principles of electrical design: Understanding the fundamentals and using good practices. Fundamentals: Bonding and grounding systems are two different things. Both are necessary to protect safety of life and from damage to property. A grounding system will allow static electricity to route into the ground to prevent lighting damage. It is also necessary to prevent a difference in potential between the ground (and anything buried in the ground) and equipment and structures from becoming a shock hazard. A bonding system has two functions: To prevent two objects that can simultaneously come into contact with a person or animal from having a difference in potential which creates a shock hazard and, to provide a low-impedance fault path to allow high current to flow momentarily in order to trip an over-current device in the case of a fault. The NEC deals with the issue of portable power generators in various sections. You need to be well versed on the NEC—for me it is a subject for a lifetime of study. Mike Holt will spoon feed you the information. There are a ton of resources on the internet. Here is one example . Osha has a good paper on the subject. Practices: I would avoid the use of any kind of sheet metal screw. Those are expressly prohibited in the Code. I would research problems with dissimilar metals and find readily available solutions for the problem. These is likely no problem one of us can face that has not been faced before by someone, somewhere. Find out what others have done. Once you educate yourself you will then have the tools to modify your approach, if needed, or to argue your case if you are convinced your approach is correct. I hope this helps. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Mark Frye via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, January 28, 2025 12:33 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Mark Frye *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Attaching Ground To Steel Frame Folks, I am going to have a steel frame for my stand alone power supply to be dropped on the ground out in the elements. I was planning to weld a stainless bolt to the mild steel frame to provide a corrosion resistant point of connection. I am getting a lot of push back on this. What are other folks do to create a connection for a system grounding electrode conductor on a piece of equipment like this? Thanks, Mark Frye -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Tue Jan 28 21:33:56 2025 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2025 02:33:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Ground To Steel Frame Message-ID: Thanks Everyone for your feedback. I will try and respond to all here. The skid is a stand-alone power supply for GPS equipment that will be deployed to large scale solar installation sites. It will not be subject to UL or NEC requirements, all though I do try to keep them well in mind. It will be a welded steel frame that will be dropped on the ground at a propitious location on a job site and left in operation for 3 to 18 months at a time. The power supply is a AGM battery/PV system driving 12VDC and 24VDC busses for various radio equipment. There will be two 8' copper clad rods installed near the skid, about 6 feet apart to establish a system and a lightning grounding electrode. The unit will have a UHF antenna lofted to 20 feet and the coax cable will lead to a lightning protection device with will in turn be connected to the lightning GE with a GEC. The steel frame will have a stud for attaching a GEC that will run to the system GE. The negative of the battery bank will attached to its own stud on the frame. An equipment grounding conductor will also run to this stub. This EGC and the Battery "-" run back to a control panel that houses the power electronics including MorningStar Genstar DC System Controller. My quandary is how to fabricate the two studs on the frame in a way that I can have durable connections to the GECs. I like welding SS bolts to the mild steel frame and using SS hardware. I have had one welding shop tell me that this is no big deal as long as you use a TIG and a 309L rod. I can also just have a mild steel bolt welded to the frame, wire brush the stud before applying No-Ox, and tightening on a cable lug or compression lug with SS hardware. That is the tempest which resides in in my tea cup. Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Jan 28 21:57:04 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2025 19:57:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Ground To Steel Frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4de8f68a-1c7c-4db4-b1c3-59cdf82f6e9c@solarray.com> To be clear, the screws I'm recommending are not a sheet metal screws, they have 12-24 threads like large ground screws.  It just drills and taps in one shot.  In 1/8" or thicker metal, it gets the code required minimum 2-1/2 threads of contact.  As I stated in my first post, regular sheet metal screws won't work. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 1/28/2025 5:50 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Practices: > > I would avoid the use of any kind of sheet metal screw.  Those are > expressly prohibited in the Code.  I would research problems with > dissimilar metals and find readily available solutions for the > problem.  These is likely no problem one of us can face that has not > been faced before by someone, somewhere.  Find out what others have done. > > Once you educate yourself you will then have the tools to modify your > approach, if needed, or to argue your case if you are convinced your > approach is correct. > > I hope this helps. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Mark Frye via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 28, 2025 12:33 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Mark Frye > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Attaching Ground To Steel Frame > > Folks, > > I am going to have a steel frame for my stand alone power supply to be > dropped on the ground out in the elements. > > I was planning to weld a stainless bolt to the mild steel frame to > provide a corrosion resistant point of connection. > > I am getting a lot of push back on this. > > What are other folks do to create a connection for a system grounding > electrode conductor on a piece of equipment like this? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Jan 28 22:32:00 2025 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2025 21:32:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Ground To Steel Frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We use copper plated steel capacitor discharge weld studs for this application: https://www.studweldprod.com/product/flanged-capacitor-discharge-studs/ They only take a few seconds to install and, as you can see, don't cost much. Of course you need a multi thousand dollar welder. Generally using stainless steel hardware as your conductor is frowned upon. But it is okay if you are just using it to clamp something against something else conductor. In which case your weld shops recommended 309L stainless fill rod will work fine in welding 304 stainless steel hardware to a mild steel frame. I think you are overthinking things quite a bit, however. I would just bolt a ground bar in a few places to the chassis. I like the heavy plated copper inter system bonding bars as a general purpose outdoor ground bar. [image: image.png] A couple of tapped #10-32 screws or 1/4"-20 and you can bolt that thing right down to your frame. Mask off or scrape off the paint underneath. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Tue, Jan 28, 2025 at 8:34 PM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thanks Everyone for your feedback. > > > > I will try and respond to all here. > > > > The skid is a stand-alone power supply for GPS equipment that will be > deployed to large scale solar installation sites. > > > > It will not be subject to UL or NEC requirements, all though I do try to > keep them well in mind. > > > > It will be a welded steel frame that will be dropped on the ground at a > propitious location on a job site and left in operation for 3 to 18 months > at a time. > > > > The power supply is a AGM battery/PV system driving 12VDC and 24VDC busses > for various radio equipment. > > > > There will be two 8’ copper clad rods installed near the skid, about 6 > feet apart to establish a system and a lightning grounding electrode. > > > > The unit will have a UHF antenna lofted to 20 feet and the coax cable will > lead to a lightning protection device with will in turn be connected to the > lightning GE with a GEC. > > > > The steel frame will have a stud for attaching a GEC that will run to the > system GE. > > > > The negative of the battery bank will attached to its own stud on the > frame. An equipment grounding conductor will also run to this stub. This > EGC and the Battery “-“ run back to a control panel that houses the power > electronics including MorningStar Genstar DC System Controller. > > > > My quandary is how to fabricate the two studs on the frame in a way that I > can have durable connections to the GECs. > > > > I like welding SS bolts to the mild steel frame and using SS hardware. > > > > I have had one welding shop tell me that this is no big deal as long as > you use a TIG and a 309L rod. > > > > I can also just have a mild steel bolt welded to the frame, wire brush the > stud before applying No-Ox, and tightening on a cable lug or compression > lug with SS hardware. > > > > That is the tempest which resides in in my tea cup. > > > > Mark > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 143078 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Jan 29 09:27:09 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2025 14:27:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Ground To Steel Frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A3A0239-C92D-4DFE-BA68-83C9F15CFF03@solarwork.com> I would like to suggest you contact Heary Brothers https://www.hearybros.com/ They have designed and I have installed Lightning Protection at almost 11,000 foot elevation that literally the owner has said in the middle of a lightning storm. He has seen lightning shooting down on all sides of his house and the house was never struck and the solar away was never affected. I had my concerns when I first installed the system, and after his testimonial, I was firmly convinced these guys really know what they’re doing Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 On Jan 28, 2025, at 7:35 PM, Mark Frye via RE-wrenches wrote:  Thanks Everyone for your feedback. I will try and respond to all here. The skid is a stand-alone power supply for GPS equipment that will be deployed to large scale solar installation sites. It will not be subject to UL or NEC requirements, all though I do try to keep them well in mind. It will be a welded steel frame that will be dropped on the ground at a propitious location on a job site and left in operation for 3 to 18 months at a time. The power supply is a AGM battery/PV system driving 12VDC and 24VDC busses for various radio equipment. There will be two 8’ copper clad rods installed near the skid, about 6 feet apart to establish a system and a lightning grounding electrode. The unit will have a UHF antenna lofted to 20 feet and the coax cable will lead to a lightning protection device with will in turn be connected to the lightning GE with a GEC. The steel frame will have a stud for attaching a GEC that will run to the system GE. The negative of the battery bank will attached to its own stud on the frame. An equipment grounding conductor will also run to this stub. This EGC and the Battery “-“ run back to a control panel that houses the power electronics including MorningStar Genstar DC System Controller. My quandary is how to fabricate the two studs on the frame in a way that I can have durable connections to the GECs. I like welding SS bolts to the mild steel frame and using SS hardware. I have had one welding shop tell me that this is no big deal as long as you use a TIG and a 309L rod. I can also just have a mild steel bolt welded to the frame, wire brush the stud before applying No-Ox, and tightening on a cable lug or compression lug with SS hardware. That is the tempest which resides in in my tea cup. Mark _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Wed Jan 29 17:38:25 2025 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2025 22:38:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Ground To Steel Frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks James. Very helpful. Got a source or spec for the bonding bar below? From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of James Jarvis via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2025 7:32 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: James Jarvis Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Ground To Steel Frame We use copper plated steel capacitor discharge weld studs for this application: https://www.studweldprod.com/product/flanged-capacitor-discharge-studs/ They only take a few seconds to install and, as you can see, don't cost much. Of course you need a multi thousand dollar welder. Generally using stainless steel hardware as your conductor is frowned upon. But it is okay if you are just using it to clamp something against something else conductor. In which case your weld shops recommended 309L stainless fill rod will work fine in welding 304 stainless steel hardware to a mild steel frame. I think you are overthinking things quite a bit, however. I would just bolt a ground bar in a few places to the chassis. I like the heavy plated copper inter system bonding bars as a general purpose outdoor ground bar. [cid:image001.png at 01DB725B.74B28AD0] A couple of tapped #10-32 screws or 1/4"-20 and you can bolt that thing right down to your frame. Mask off or scrape off the paint underneath. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Tue, Jan 28, 2025 at 8:34 PM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches > wrote: Thanks Everyone for your feedback. I will try and respond to all here. The skid is a stand-alone power supply for GPS equipment that will be deployed to large scale solar installation sites. It will not be subject to UL or NEC requirements, all though I do try to keep them well in mind. It will be a welded steel frame that will be dropped on the ground at a propitious location on a job site and left in operation for 3 to 18 months at a time. The power supply is a AGM battery/PV system driving 12VDC and 24VDC busses for various radio equipment. There will be two 8’ copper clad rods installed near the skid, about 6 feet apart to establish a system and a lightning grounding electrode. The unit will have a UHF antenna lofted to 20 feet and the coax cable will lead to a lightning protection device with will in turn be connected to the lightning GE with a GEC. The steel frame will have a stud for attaching a GEC that will run to the system GE. The negative of the battery bank will attached to its own stud on the frame. An equipment grounding conductor will also run to this stub. This EGC and the Battery “-“ run back to a control panel that houses the power electronics including MorningStar Genstar DC System Controller. My quandary is how to fabricate the two studs on the frame in a way that I can have durable connections to the GECs. I like welding SS bolts to the mild steel frame and using SS hardware. I have had one welding shop tell me that this is no big deal as long as you use a TIG and a 309L rod. I can also just have a mild steel bolt welded to the frame, wire brush the stud before applying No-Ox, and tightening on a cable lug or compression lug with SS hardware. That is the tempest which resides in in my tea cup. Mark _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 143078 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Jan 30 20:31:33 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2025 20:31:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback equipment direct from China?? Message-ID: I was looking for sources of Outback equipment and found this: https://www.fangpusun.com/fangpusun-flexmax-mppt-charge-controller-100a Anyone heard about this? Are they the supplier to Outback? John Blittersdorf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Thu Jan 30 20:44:57 2025 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2025 01:44:57 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback equipment direct from China?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One of my customers bought a “New” Mate3s (from the new AltE folks).. plugged in the MAC address for OpticsRE and it came up “already registered “.. Called OB tech support, seems the SR and MAC address doesn’t match, the Mate3s with that MAC address is currently registered and on line at a site in PQ.. and the Mate3s with that SR was sold over 8 years ago.. consensus is that it’s a Chinese knock off.. OB Tech says they’ve been around for a few years now. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 30, 2025, at 8:32 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote:  I was looking for sources of Outback equipment and found this: https://www.fangpusun.com/fangpusun-flexmax-mppt-charge-controller-100a Anyone heard about this? Are they the supplier to Outback? John Blittersdorf _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Jan 30 20:59:16 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2025 20:59:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: <4750DEBB-0225-4E9F-B51B-ED0264B2B828@gmail.com> References: <4750DEBB-0225-4E9F-B51B-ED0264B2B828@gmail.com> Message-ID: Fortress tells me they just released the latest firmware to deal with half-wave loads. This version was put out for download a few days ago. In my case, they say it "might" help (CFL to) LED retrofit lamps from flickering when switching grid pass-thru to inverter AC. I am dubious. but I've since read that some LED lamps do not employ full rectification, just a single diode. On Thu, Dec 19, 2024 at 8:54 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Howie > > That’s great info thanks. > > They never mentioned that to me. > And I’ve not heard about an actual > Hardware issue/fix. > > The latest firmware 1E1E is supposed to “fix” it. It also requires a > separate firmware update for the display which you have to do in person, > stupid. > > Jay > > > > On Dec 18, 2024, at 9:05 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I installed a couple of EG4 18k inverters off grid this past spring, made > by LuxPower as is the Envy. They look very similar both visually and > programmatically. Withone install, there has been a steady problem of the > inverter shutting off when the client uses a hair dryer. The other client > has not reported any issues with the inverter cycling off. Tech Support's > solution to this issue which they referred to as stemming from half-wave > loads, was to run another load simultaneously which was supposed to help > prevent the nuisance momentary shutdown, but according to the client, it > hasn't helped. After bugging tech support for several months about this > issue, they finally told me that there was a hardware design flaw that they > were working on resolving and when they had it fixed, they would send out a > replacement inverter. I asked if they would be replacing both inverters, > but they said since one hasn't reported any issues, they would not be > replacing that one. That was at least 2 months ago, and I have not heard > anything since. > > Howie Michaelson > > > On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 4:02 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I will add that I’ve heard privately off list that it’s actually smaller >> loads that seem to be the issue. >> >> And larger 1500 watt electric heaters seem to work ok. >> >> I’m wondering if anyone else has come across this issue and I guess more >> importantly is there a fix? >> >> Jay >> >> On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:52 PM, Jay wrote: >> >>  >> Here is what I understand 1/2 wave loads to be. >> >> As I understand it, Heater loads are the main issue. >> >> Toasters, toaster ovens, hair dryers, aquarium/terraium heaters etc. >> >> But if there are other things pls let us know >> >> Jay >> >> On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:34 PM, GLBCC via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> What is a half wave load? >> >> On Dec 18, 2024 13:35, Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi all. >> >> I’ve recently been made aware that the fortress inverter isn’t too happy >> with 1/2 wave loads. >> >> I’m wondering if this is an issue with the AIO or solark? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 31 08:36:54 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2025 06:36:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19469AB8-D88A-4BD5-B502-9607E9B65190@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Jan 31 09:35:40 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2025 09:35:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 VDC System PV regulation Message-ID: I have a customer with a 120 VDC battery bank with old Jacobs 120 VDC wind turbine and currently a rack of low wattage pv panels self regulating. He wants to upgrade on existing home made racks with new higher wattage modules. Does anyone know of a 120V Solar Charge controller? John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Jan 31 10:26:16 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2025 09:26:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 VDC System PV regulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01582EB4-C373-40D1-B73E-A7753F55BF53@mavericksolar.com> John I recall that MidNite Solar classic charge controller has a kangaroo special version that is 120 V DC for the Australian market? Or did I dream that? Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Jan 31, 2025, at 8:36 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I have a customer with a 120 VDC battery bank with old Jacobs 120 VDC wind turbine and currently a rack of low wattage pv panels self regulating. He wants to upgrade on existing home made racks with new higher wattage modules. Does anyone know of a 120V Solar Charge controller? > > John > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 31 11:41:53 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2025 09:41:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120 VDC System PV regulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Out of curiosity, why not go with a CC from the 120vdc down to a 48v inverter battery bank? I did this for someone years ago who had a basically custom 120vdc inverter/battery system. jay > On Jan 31, 2025, at 7:35 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have a customer with a 120 VDC battery bank with old Jacobs 120 VDC wind turbine and currently a rack of low wattage pv panels self regulating. He wants to upgrade on existing home made racks with new higher wattage modules. Does anyone know of a 120V Solar Charge controller? > > John > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dana at solarwork.com Fri Jan 31 12:23:11 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2025 17:23:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback equipment direct from China?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From Ryan Warrick Outback National Sales Manager: This isn't ours. Looks like a Chinese knockoff. I can forward to the powers that be and see what they say. Ryan Warrick National Sales Manager FYI - Outback is replacing my Dead FM-100 in late March. I did have to source & purchase a replacement [Zonna Energy]. I am back up in operation. Guess I will have& keep a spare backup. Ryan said that new FM-100s will be available to all by Late March, in theory... Fingers crossed. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback equipment direct from China?? Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2025 01:31:33 +0000 Size: 10192 URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Fri Jan 31 12:33:34 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2025 09:33:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback equipment direct from China?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Dana, what number is the best way to get a hold of Outback these days? By chance does anyone know if they are updating the Mate3-SL light versions to the full Opticsre friendly versions again like they promised back with the previous owners? Nick On Fri, Jan 31, 2025 at 9:23 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > From Ryan Warrick Outback National Sales Manager: > > > > This isn't ours. Looks like a Chinese knockoff. I can forward to the > powers that be and see what they say. > > *Ryan Warrick* > > National Sales Manager > > > > FYI – Outback is replacing my Dead FM-100 in late March. I did have to > source & purchase a replacement [Zonna Energy]. I am back up in operation. > Guess I will have& keep a spare backup. > > Ryan said that new FM-100s will be available to all by Late March, in > theory… Fingers crossed. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Fri Jan 31 13:20:43 2025 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2025 10:20:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 wave loads In-Reply-To: References: <4750DEBB-0225-4E9F-B51B-ED0264B2B828@gmail.com> Message-ID: Kirk, Unless I remember incorrectly, a single diode gives half wave rectification, full wave rectification requires two diodes with a center-tapped transformer or a bridge rectifier. Half wave rectification injects a dc current on the inverter output; that is why some inverters don't do well with it. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 1/30/2025 5:59 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote: > Fortress tells me they just released the latest firmware to deal with > half-wave loads. This version was put out for download a few days ago. > > In my case, they say it "might" help (CFL to) LED retrofit lamps from > flickering when switching grid pass-thru to inverter AC. I am dubious. > but I've since read that some LED lamps do not employ full > rectification, just a single diode. > > On Thu, Dec 19, 2024 at 8:54 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Howie > > That’s great info thanks. > > They never mentioned that to me. > And I’ve not heard about an actual > Hardware issue/fix. > > The latest firmware 1E1E is supposed to “fix” it. It also requires > a separate firmware update for the display which you have to do in > person, stupid. > > Jay > > > >> On Dec 18, 2024, at 9:05 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> I installed a couple of EG4 18k inverters off grid this past >> spring, made by LuxPower as is the Envy.  They look very similar >> both visually and programmatically. Withone install, there has >> been a steady problem of the inverter shutting off when the >> client uses a hair dryer. The other client has not reported any >> issues with the inverter cycling off.  Tech Support's solution to >> this issue which they referred to as stemming from half-wave >> loads, was to run another load simultaneously which was supposed >> to help prevent the nuisance momentary shutdown, but according to >> the client, it hasn't helped. After bugging tech support for >> several months about this issue, they finally told me that there >> was a hardware design flaw that they were working on resolving >> and when they had it fixed, they would send out a replacement >> inverter. I asked if they would be replacing both inverters, but >> they said since one hasn't reported any issues, they would not be >> replacing that one. That was at least 2 months ago, and I have >> not heard anything since. >> >> Howie Michaelson >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 18, 2024 at 4:02 PM Jay via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> I will add that I’ve heard privately off list that it’s >> actually smaller loads that seem to be the issue. >> >> And larger 1500 watt electric heaters seem to work ok. >> >> I’m wondering if anyone else has come across this issue and I >> guess more importantly is there a fix? >> >> Jay >> >>> On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:52 PM, Jay wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Here is what I understand 1/2 wave loads to be. >>> >>> As I understand it, Heater loads are the main issue. >>> >>> Toasters, toaster ovens, hair dryers, aquarium/terraium >>> heaters etc. >>> >>> But if there are other things pls let us know >>> >>> Jay >>> >>>> On Dec 18, 2024, at 1:34 PM, GLBCC via RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> What is a half wave load? >>>> >>>> On Dec 18, 2024 13:35, Jay via RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all. >>>> >>>> I’ve recently been made aware that the fortress >>>> inverter isn’t too happy with 1/2 wave loads. >>>> >>>> I’m wondering if this is an issue with the AIO or solark? >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> > > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > */Celebrating our 34^st  Anniversary 1991-2025!!/* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun Feb 2 23:54:56 2025 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2025 20:54:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 to old OB inverters In-Reply-To: References: <4750DEBB-0225-4E9F-B51B-ED0264B2B828@gmail.com> Message-ID: Have any off-gridders done a system with Powerflo16's to power pre-LFP OB/FX inverters?  The FM80's LFP settings in this system are compatible with LFP but I'm looking for options other than using the Aux in the CC's wired to a NC relay and from there to the inverter on/off landings in the green terminal of the OB/FX for the LBCO and reconnect function.             I've been down this road before, though a different equipment.  I've used the Aux from a Classic for inverter LBCO and reconnect though its never been fully "tested", although I read "open" and closed" at the un-wired aux landing when I forced it with a high LBCO setting.  Just thinking about the highest reliability.         Thanks in advance. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com From tyronehouck at gmail.com Mon Feb 3 00:35:36 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2025 21:35:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 to old OB inverters In-Reply-To: References: <4750DEBB-0225-4E9F-B51B-ED0264B2B828@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think the answer is using a flexnet DC's aux relay terminal to control the on/off switch terminals of the FX inverter. You'll need a mate3S/SL but that should do it without having to change the inverter... On Sun, Feb 2, 2025, 8:52 PM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Have any off-gridders done a system with Powerflo16's to power pre-LFP > OB/FX inverters? The FM80's LFP settings in this system are compatible > with LFP but I'm looking for options other than using the Aux in the > CC's wired to a NC relay and from there to the inverter on/off landings > in the green terminal of the OB/FX for the LBCO and reconnect function. > > I've been down this road before, though a different > equipment. I've used the Aux from a Classic for inverter LBCO and > reconnect though its never been fully "tested", although I read "open" > and closed" at the un-wired aux landing when I forced it with a high > LBCO setting. Just thinking about the highest reliability. > > Thanks in advance. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd > . > (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Feb 3 08:46:14 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2025 06:46:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 to old OB inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bill I tried and failed to find any setting information on that battery besides charge and float. Kinda need to know things like LVD, recommended LBCO, etc. But if it’s similar to other prismatic cells you should be able to set the OB inverter to a LBCO that works without having to go through a aux relay. Jay > On Feb 2, 2025, at 9:53 PM, Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Have any off-gridders done a system with Powerflo16's to power pre-LFP OB/FX inverters? The FM80's LFP settings in this system are compatible with LFP but I'm looking for options other than using the Aux in the CC's wired to a NC relay and from there to the inverter on/off landings in the green terminal of the OB/FX for the LBCO and reconnect function. > > I've been down this road before, though a different equipment. I've used the Aux from a Classic for inverter LBCO and reconnect though its never been fully "tested", although I read "open" and closed" at the un-wired aux landing when I forced it with a high LBCO setting. Just thinking about the highest reliability. > > Thanks in advance. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Mon Feb 3 09:49:53 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2025 09:49:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 to old OB inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay The settings for the MNS Batteries are on a sticker on each battery. BMS- LVCO 44.8 HVCO 58V (The HVCO is not on the sticker) LVCO (inverter) 46.0 Float 54V Bulk 56.1V The rest of the you can set to what you want, the battery does not care. All Prismatic cells operate mostly the same, and the MNS Batteries use A+ Automotive cells MFG by EVE. Thanks Logan On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 8:47 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Bill > > I tried and failed to find any setting information on that battery besides > charge and float. > Kinda need to know things like LVD, recommended LBCO, etc. > But if it’s similar to other prismatic cells you should be able to set the > OB inverter to a LBCO that works without having to go through a aux relay. > > Jay > > > On Feb 2, 2025, at 9:53 PM, Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > Have any off-gridders done a system with Powerflo16's to power pre-LFP > OB/FX inverters? The FM80's LFP settings in this system are compatible > with LFP but I'm looking for options other than using the Aux in the CC's > wired to a NC relay and from there to the inverter on/off landings in the > green terminal of the OB/FX for the LBCO and reconnect function. > > > > I've been down this road before, though a different > equipment. I've used the Aux from a Classic for inverter LBCO and > reconnect though its never been fully "tested", although I read "open" and > closed" at the un-wired aux landing when I forced it with a high LBCO > setting. Just thinking about the highest reliability. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Bill > > > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, owner > > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > > Solar Powered since 1982 > > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > > > > > -- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > www.avast.com > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Feb 3 12:27:38 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2025 11:27:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 to old OB inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1786DF75-89D3-45C8-AF0C-AD5B3FEA4643@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/png Size: 138069 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/png Size: 138510 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Battery SOC State of Charge Map 2025-01-22.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 116720 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Mon Feb 3 15:45:06 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2025 12:45:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 to old OB inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is the voltage vs SOC approximation chart from Midnite. Was helpful for me on my first couple installs as I awaited some additional details about their batteries. Nick On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 6:50 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jay > > The settings for the MNS Batteries are on a sticker on each battery. > > BMS- LVCO 44.8 HVCO 58V (The HVCO is not on the sticker) > LVCO (inverter) 46.0 > Float 54V > Bulk 56.1V > > The rest of the you can set to what you want, the battery does not care. > All Prismatic cells operate mostly the same, and the MNS Batteries use A+ > Automotive cells MFG by EVE. > > Thanks > > Logan > > > On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 8:47 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Bill >> >> I tried and failed to find any setting information on that battery >> besides charge and float. >> Kinda need to know things like LVD, recommended LBCO, etc. >> But if it’s similar to other prismatic cells you should be able to set >> the OB inverter to a LBCO that works without having to go through a aux >> relay. >> >> Jay >> >> > On Feb 2, 2025, at 9:53 PM, Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> > >> > Have any off-gridders done a system with Powerflo16's to power pre-LFP >> OB/FX inverters? The FM80's LFP settings in this system are compatible >> with LFP but I'm looking for options other than using the Aux in the CC's >> wired to a NC relay and from there to the inverter on/off landings in the >> green terminal of the OB/FX for the LBCO and reconnect function. >> > >> > I've been down this road before, though a different >> equipment. I've used the Aux from a Classic for inverter LBCO and >> reconnect though its never been fully "tested", although I read "open" and >> closed" at the un-wired aux landing when I forced it with a high LBCO >> setting. Just thinking about the highest reliability. >> > >> > Thanks in advance. >> > >> > Bill >> > >> > Feather River Solar Electric >> > Bill Battagin, owner >> > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >> > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >> > Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >> > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >> > Solar Powered since 1982 >> > Home of the Sunny Side Up >> > >> > >> > -- >> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> > www.avast.com >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Powerflo16 Battery SOCvsVoltage.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 297072 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Mon Feb 3 15:49:18 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2025 12:49:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No more Mate3-SL upgrades Message-ID: Greetings Wrenches, Perhaps I'm one of the few stuck with a handful of the Mate3-SL units that was counting on Outback's promise that they would be upgraded for free once the chips became available but that promise was not carried on to the new owners. I believe most all of the Flexpower Radian panels AEE offloaded at the end shipped with the SL version. They specifically just let me know that that program was affiliated only with the Enersys ownership and now that they are independent the program is no longer offered. One more reason for me to no longer offer their products unless for repairs and like for like replacements. Midnite's timing on the release of their new products is perfect! Only thing missing now is an effective monitoring platform like Opticsre. Nick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Feb 3 16:06:47 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2025 14:06:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 to old OB inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C784DC5-79F3-4FA3-A288-B26E156A59F3@gmail.com> HI Nick Thanks but I’m curious about 1 thing. The charged voltage they list here is around 57v. But the charge voltage specifics I just got from midnite say 56.4. What’s up with that I don’t understand which is correct. jay > On Feb 3, 2025, at 1:45 PM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Here is the voltage vs SOC approximation chart from Midnite. Was helpful for me on my first couple installs as I awaited some additional details about their batteries. > > Nick > > On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 6:50 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Hi Jay >> >> The settings for the MNS Batteries are on a sticker on each battery. >> >> BMS- LVCO 44.8 HVCO 58V (The HVCO is not on the sticker) >> LVCO (inverter) 46.0 >> Float 54V >> Bulk 56.1V >> >> The rest of the you can set to what you want, the battery does not care. >> All Prismatic cells operate mostly the same, and the MNS Batteries use A+ Automotive cells MFG by EVE. >> >> Thanks >> >> Logan >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 8:47 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> Hi Bill >>> >>> I tried and failed to find any setting information on that battery besides charge and float. >>> Kinda need to know things like LVD, recommended LBCO, etc. >>> But if it’s similar to other prismatic cells you should be able to set the OB inverter to a LBCO that works without having to go through a aux relay. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> > On Feb 2, 2025, at 9:53 PM, Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> > >>> > Have any off-gridders done a system with Powerflo16's to power pre-LFP OB/FX inverters? The FM80's LFP settings in this system are compatible with LFP but I'm looking for options other than using the Aux in the CC's wired to a NC relay and from there to the inverter on/off landings in the green terminal of the OB/FX for the LBCO and reconnect function. >>> > >>> > I've been down this road before, though a different equipment. I've used the Aux from a Classic for inverter LBCO and reconnect though its never been fully "tested", although I read "open" and closed" at the un-wired aux landing when I forced it with a high LBCO setting. Just thinking about the highest reliability. >>> > >>> > Thanks in advance. >>> > >>> > Bill >>> > >>> > Feather River Solar Electric >>> > Bill Battagin, owner >>> > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >>> > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >>> > Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >>> > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >>> > Solar Powered since 1982 >>> > Home of the Sunny Side Up >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> > www.avast.com >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Feb 3 17:33:18 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2025 15:33:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery questions. In-Reply-To: <1786DF75-89D3-45C8-AF0C-AD5B3FEA4643@mavericksolar.com> References: <1786DF75-89D3-45C8-AF0C-AD5B3FEA4643@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <3A1F6FFC-0920-473F-8691-F79929F9E974@gmail.com> Hi All Im wondering about a few things as we are talking batteries. 1. how do people feel about the amphenol battery connector vs lugs? A lot of batteries are going that way. Lots to like about them. 2. battery cable lengths. I see both things said, that they have to be the same length or doesn’t matter. I did a large fortress system that they wouldn’t warranty unless equal lengths. Mind you, it would have added about 200’ of 4/0. I convinced them by using different wire sizes to make the % VD the same and they agreed. 3. battery lifting attachment points. 300# is really heavy and is it actually more than 2 people can do via OSHA? What about some threaded holes for lifting rings, or places for straps on the side? Thanks jay > On Feb 3, 2025, at 10:27 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Bill > > So far I have installed eight of the midnight power flow 16 batteries. > > The most recent was three on an Outback Radian. > > I documented that process here, even with settings. > > https://youtu.be/AwoaTZtHMjU?feature=shared > > I also connected the Powerflo16 to XW system and the Polyon Tech compatibility shows the details of the BMS nicely. > > Documented here. > > https://youtu.be/bfWgmGNrIuE?feature=shared > > I have also made a chart of LiFePO4 settings and would like some feedback, if possible. I basically treat all 16s LiFePO4 batteries the same, Absorb at 3.45 per cell and everything trickles down from their. > > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > >> On Feb 2, 2025, at 10:52 PM, Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Have any off-gridders done a system with Powerflo16's to power pre-LFP OB/FX inverters? The FM80's LFP settings in this system are compatible with LFP but I'm looking for options other than using the Aux in the CC's wired to a NC relay and from there to the inverter on/off landings in the green terminal of the OB/FX for the LBCO and reconnect function. >> >> I've been down this road before, though a different equipment. I've used the Aux from a Classic for inverter LBCO and reconnect though its never been fully "tested", although I read "open" and closed" at the un-wired aux landing when I forced it with a high LBCO setting. Just thinking about the highest reliability. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, owner >> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >> Solar Powered since 1982 >> Home of the Sunny Side Up >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon Feb 3 19:32:03 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:32:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery questions. In-Reply-To: <3A1F6FFC-0920-473F-8691-F79929F9E974@gmail.com> References: <1786DF75-89D3-45C8-AF0C-AD5B3FEA4643@mavericksolar.com> <3A1F6FFC-0920-473F-8691-F79929F9E974@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, great questions. One of the few good things about the OutBack Skybox (I think it was that one) was the lifting holes on the upper back corners so that a bar or pipe could be run through making it much easier for a lift into place. Maybe for the 300 lb batteries lifting eyes on all four top corners so that 2 bars across the front and back could be used by 4 people to lift would be good. Of course a mechanical lift will also do the job. I've always thought that a battery that sits on the floor would be preferable unless subject to flooding. I've used different cable sizes and lengths to the extreme on my own system, and there is a slight difference in charge between batteries but it never gets too far out of balance. I do have one battery that gets slightly more cycling, but that is actually what I prefer in this instance. Remember the Aquion battery with the #12 cables and Amphenol PV connectors? Brad On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 2:34 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All > > Im wondering about a few things as we are talking batteries. > > 1. how do people feel about the amphenol battery connector vs lugs? A lot > of batteries are going that way. Lots to like about them. > > 2. battery cable lengths. I see both things said, that they have to be > the same length or doesn’t matter. > I did a large fortress system that they wouldn’t warranty unless equal > lengths. Mind you, it would have added about 200’ of 4/0. I convinced > them by using different wire sizes to make the % VD the same and they > agreed. > > 3. battery lifting attachment points. 300# is really heavy and is it > actually more than 2 people can do via OSHA? > What about some threaded holes for lifting rings, or places for straps on > the side? > > Thanks > > jay > > > > On Feb 3, 2025, at 10:27 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Bill > > So far I have installed eight of the midnight power flow 16 batteries. > > The most recent was three on an Outback Radian. > > I documented that process here, even with settings. > > [image: maxresdefault.jpg] > > Outback Radian GS8048A upgraded to MidNite Powerflo16 48kWh! > > youtu.be > > > > I also connected the Powerflo16 to XW system and the Polyon Tech > compatibility shows the details of the BMS nicely. > > Documented here. > > [image: maxresdefault.jpg] > > Connecting the MidNite Powerflo16 to Schneider XW Series Inverters > > youtu.be > > > > I have also made a chart of LiFePO4 settings and would like some feedback, > if possible. I basically treat all 16s LiFePO4 batteries the same, Absorb > at 3.45 per cell and everything trickles down from their. > > [image: Battery SOC State of Charge Map 2025-01-22.pdf] > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Feb 2, 2025, at 10:52 PM, Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Have any off-gridders done a system with Powerflo16's to power pre-LFP > OB/FX inverters? The FM80's LFP settings in this system are compatible > with LFP but I'm looking for options other than using the Aux in the CC's > wired to a NC relay and from there to the inverter on/off landings in the > green terminal of the OB/FX for the LBCO and reconnect function. > > I've been down this road before, though a different > equipment. I've used the Aux from a Classic for inverter LBCO and > reconnect though its never been fully "tested", although I read "open" and > closed" at the un-wired aux landing when I forced it with a high LBCO > setting. Just thinking about the highest reliability. > > Thanks in advance. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Mon Feb 3 20:51:10 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2025 17:51:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No more Mate3-SL upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can the mate3SL not use the mate3S firmware? Is there a reason to need a version other than 001.004.007? Or am I misunderstanding your post? Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Mon, Feb 3, 2025, 12:50 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Greetings Wrenches, > > Perhaps I'm one of the few stuck with a handful of the Mate3-SL units that > was counting on Outback's promise that they would be upgraded for free once > the chips became available but that promise was not carried on to the new > owners. I believe most all of the Flexpower Radian panels AEE offloaded at > the end shipped with the SL version. They specifically just let me know > that that program was affiliated only with the Enersys ownership and now > that they are independent the program is no longer offered. One more reason > for me to no longer offer their products unless for repairs and like for > like replacements. Midnite's timing on the release of their new products is > perfect! Only thing missing now is an effective monitoring platform like > Opticsre. > > Nick > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon Feb 3 22:11:53 2025 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2025 03:11:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 to old OB inverters Message-ID: Today I installed 3 of the MN POWERFLO 5 batteries with an OBVFX3648 Per the battery label I was able to set the inverter LBCO to 46 vdc. I see that the battery BMS range Is 44.8-58 vdc We should be good to go. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Feb 3, 2025, at 1:47 PM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote:  Here is the voltage vs SOC approximation chart from Midnite. Was helpful for me on my first couple installs as I awaited some additional details about their batteries. Nick On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 6:50 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Jay The settings for the MNS Batteries are on a sticker on each battery. BMS- LVCO 44.8 HVCO 58V (The HVCO is not on the sticker) LVCO (inverter) 46.0 Float 54V Bulk 56.1V The rest of the you can set to what you want, the battery does not care. All Prismatic cells operate mostly the same, and the MNS Batteries use A+ Automotive cells MFG by EVE. Thanks Logan On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 8:47 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Bill I tried and failed to find any setting information on that battery besides charge and float. Kinda need to know things like LVD, recommended LBCO, etc. But if it’s similar to other prismatic cells you should be able to set the OB inverter to a LBCO that works without having to go through a aux relay. Jay > On Feb 2, 2025, at 9:53 PM, Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Have any off-gridders done a system with Powerflo16's to power pre-LFP OB/FX inverters? The FM80's LFP settings in this system are compatible with LFP but I'm looking for options other than using the Aux in the CC's wired to a NC relay and from there to the inverter on/off landings in the green terminal of the OB/FX for the LBCO and reconnect function. > > I've been down this road before, though a different equipment. I've used the Aux from a Classic for inverter LBCO and reconnect though its never been fully "tested", although I read "open" and closed" at the un-wired aux landing when I forced it with a high LBCO setting. Just thinking about the highest reliability. > > Thanks in advance. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Feb 4 00:20:21 2025 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2025 21:20:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 to old OB inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40468081-4cd2-43cc-ac57-6668496c63c2@psln.com> Midnite just changed their absorb voltage to 56.4V.  For what its worth, I treat the batteries from manufacturers exactly the way they say, I don't want to do anything that may jeopardize the warranty.  Also with LFP batteries, its not just a pile of cells, no doubt each manufacturer has their own tweaks to their proprietary BMS, some have heat, some don't, all absorb set points are not the same, etc. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 2/3/2025 6:49 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Jay > > The settings for the MNS Batteries are on a sticker on each battery. > > BMS- LVCO 44.8 HVCO 58V (The HVCO is not on the sticker) > LVCO (inverter) 46.0 > Float 54V > Bulk 56.1V > > The rest of the  you can set to what you want, the battery does not care. > All Prismatic cells operate mostly the same, and the MNS Batteries use > A+ Automotive cells MFG by EVE. > > Thanks > > Logan > > > On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 8:47 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Bill > > I tried and failed to find any setting information on that battery > besides charge and float. > Kinda need to know things like LVD, recommended LBCO, etc. > But if it’s similar to other prismatic cells you should be able to > set the OB inverter to a LBCO that works without having to go > through a aux relay. > > Jay > > > On Feb 2, 2025, at 9:53 PM, Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > > > Have any off-gridders done a system with Powerflo16's to power > pre-LFP OB/FX inverters?  The FM80's LFP settings in this system > are compatible with LFP but I'm looking for options other than > using the Aux in the CC's wired to a NC relay and from there to > the inverter on/off landings in the green terminal of the OB/FX > for the LBCO and reconnect function. > > > >             I've been down this road before, though a different > equipment.  I've used the Aux from a Classic for inverter LBCO and > reconnect though its never been fully "tested", although I read > "open" and closed" at the un-wired aux landing when I forced it > with a high LBCO setting.  Just thinking about the highest > reliability. > > > >         Thanks in advance. > > > > Bill > > > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, owner > > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > > Taylorsville, CA  95983 > > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > > Solar Powered since 1982 > > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > > > > > -- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > www.avast.com > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Feb 4 09:26:28 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2025 07:26:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 to old OB inverters In-Reply-To: <40468081-4cd2-43cc-ac57-6668496c63c2@psln.com> References: <40468081-4cd2-43cc-ac57-6668496c63c2@psln.com> Message-ID: <1459CEF5-DF7B-45F7-A2E8-B3785D55C78E@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wstahle at pacific.net Tue Feb 4 11:07:35 2025 From: wstahle at pacific.net (Wallace Stahle) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2025 08:07:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 DOD vs Cycle life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jeremy, I am under the impression that leaving at least 10% of capacity will extend total cycle life. The chart states 50.4 volts is a 10% SOC. Then there is the LBCO delay time that may allow battery shutdown before the inverter does. Of course the OB FX LBCO upper limit is at 48 volts thus the recent search and discussion for a seamless external inverter shutdown to get users attention if an AGS is not in the mix. Wallace Stahle Future Electric Energy Co PO Box 236 Willits, CA 95490 707-459-0474 Lic.#C10-762093 future at pacific.net > On Feb 3, 2025, at 7:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Today I installed 3 of the MN > POWERFLO 5 batteries with an OBVFX3648 > Per the battery label I was able to set the inverter LBCO to 46 vdc. > I see that the battery BMS range > Is 44.8-58 vdc > We should be good to go. > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > >> On Feb 3, 2025, at 1:47 PM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>  >> Here is the voltage vs SOC approximation chart from Midnite. Was helpful for me on my first couple installs as I awaited some additional details about their batteries. >> >> Nick >> >> On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 6:50 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Hi Jay >> >> The settings for the MNS Batteries are on a sticker on each battery. >> >> BMS- LVCO 44.8 HVCO 58V (The HVCO is not on the sticker) >> LVCO (inverter) 46.0 >> Float 54V >> Bulk 56.1V >> >> The rest of the you can set to what you want, the battery does not care. >> All Prismatic cells operate mostly the same, and the MNS Batteries use A+ Automotive cells MFG by EVE. >> >> Thanks >> >> Logan >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 8:47 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Hi Bill >> >> I tried and failed to find any setting information on that battery besides charge and float. >> Kinda need to know things like LVD, recommended LBCO, etc. >> But if it’s similar to other prismatic cells you should be able to set the OB inverter to a LBCO that works without having to go through a aux relay. >> >> Jay >> >> > On Feb 2, 2025, at 9:53 PM, Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> > >> > Have any off-gridders done a system with Powerflo16's to power pre-LFP OB/FX inverters? The FM80's LFP settings in this system are compatible with LFP but I'm looking for options other than using the Aux in the CC's wired to a NC relay and from there to the inverter on/off landings in the green terminal of the OB/FX for the LBCO and reconnect function. >> > >> > I've been down this road before, though a different equipment. I've used the Aux from a Classic for inverter LBCO and reconnect though its never been fully "tested", although I read "open" and closed" at the un-wired aux landing when I forced it with a high LBCO setting. Just thinking about the highest reliability. >> > >> > Thanks in advance. >> > >> > Bill >> > >> > Feather River Solar Electric >> > Bill Battagin, owner >> > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >> > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >> > Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >> > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >> > Solar Powered since 1982 >> > Home of the Sunny Side Up >> > >> > >> > -- >> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> > www.avast.com >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Feb 4 13:12:19 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2025 10:12:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Who makes this racking? Message-ID: I've been looking for a racking solution that would allow me to mount 9-12 modules in a single horizontal row in portrait, with the bottom edge 6' above grade and have the ability to adjust tilt angle. I stumbled upon this. Can anyone point me to the manufacturer or recommend something similar? [image: image.png] -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 451158 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Multi-Pole Array.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 100758 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Feb 4 13:16:40 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2025 11:16:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Who makes this racking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58A858EE-B69F-422E-8FA1-D267E4DD1F7D@gmail.com> HI Michael, I dont know that one, but you can look at Tamarac solar. https://tamaracksolar.com/products/pole-mounting-system/top-of-pole-portrait/ > On Feb 4, 2025, at 11:12 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I've been looking for a racking solution that would allow me to mount 9-12 modules in a single horizontal row in portrait, with the bottom edge 6' above grade and have the ability to adjust tilt angle. I stumbled upon this. Can anyone point me to the manufacturer or recommend something similar? > > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric Inc > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 1116835 > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Feb 4 16:55:46 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2025 14:55:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 DOD vs Cycle life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <370ffdb8-9a92-4089-ada9-45db817babcd@solarray.com> Like all Li+ batteries, the voltage stays fairly constant for most of the capacity, and then dives at the end.  An LBCO of 48 v or lower, is not going to work in my experience.  The SOC vs V chart for the Powerflo doesn't look any different than most other brands.    You'll end up with the BMS shutting the battery off, which will then not allow it to accept charging from the (hopefully) DC coupled PV array.  Then you're in for dark start, where you need to bring a 48 vdc power supply of some sort that can output 48 vdc even to a 0 v buss to wake the BMS up. Basically a well pump or other large load will pull the battery voltage down so hard and fast that it will occasionally get past even an LBCO set at 49 v (max available setting on Magnums)  I agree with Wallace here, that you want a setting above 50 v, to be useful.  You need enough SOC left to make up for the self discharge of the battery and BMS, so the charge controller can wake up the next sunny morning. All of this depends on the time and current programming that are behind that LBCO function.   Most LBCO setups are designed to allow high current for short time periods, which means the BMS may beat it to the shutdown.   Offgrid, especially with legacy inverters, this is a very real problem, and one reason I'm still using lead acid batteries in some systems. Homegrid batteries are wired with one less cell in series for closer to true 48 v performance, but I can't recommend them yet, because I've had some firmware glitches with the one system I've tried them on. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/4/2025 9:07 AM, Wallace Stahle via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Jeremy, > > I am under the impression that leaving at least 10% of capacity will > extend total cycle life. > The chart states 50.4 volts is a 10% SOC. >  Then there is the LBCO delay time that may allow battery shutdown > before the inverter does. > > Of course the  OB FX LBCO upper limit is at 48 volts thus the recent > search and discussion for a seamless external inverter shutdown to get > users attention if an AGS is not in the mix. > > Wallace Stahle > Future Electric Energy Co > PO Box 236 > Willits, CA 95490 > 707-459-0474 > Lic.#C10-762093 > future at pacific.net > >> On Feb 3, 2025, at 7:11 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Today I installed 3 of the MN >> POWERFLO 5 batteries with an OBVFX3648 >> Per the battery label I was able to set the inverter LBCO to 46 vdc. >> I see that the battery BMS range >> Is 44.8-58 vdc >> We should be good to go. >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> >>> On Feb 3, 2025, at 1:47 PM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Here is the voltage vs SOC approximation chart from Midnite. Was >>> helpful for me on my first couple installs as I awaited some >>> additional details about their batteries. >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 6:50 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Jay >>> >>> The settings for the MNS Batteries are on a sticker on each >>> battery. >>> >>> BMS- LVCO 44.8 HVCO 58V (The HVCO is not on the sticker) >>> LVCO (inverter) 46.0 >>> Float 54V >>> Bulk 56.1V >>> >>> The rest of the  you can set to what you want, the battery does >>> not care. >>> All Prismatic cells operate mostly the same, and the MNS >>> Batteries use A+ Automotive cells MFG by EVE. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Logan >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 8:47 AM Jay via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bill >>> >>> I tried and failed to find any setting information on that >>> battery besides charge and float. >>> Kinda need to know things like LVD, recommended LBCO, etc. >>> But if it’s similar to other prismatic cells you should be >>> able to set the OB inverter to a LBCO that works without >>> having to go through a aux relay. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> > On Feb 2, 2025, at 9:53 PM, Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Have any off-gridders done a system with Powerflo16's to >>> power pre-LFP OB/FX inverters?  The FM80's LFP settings in >>> this system are compatible with LFP but I'm looking for >>> options other than using the Aux in the CC's wired to a NC >>> relay and from there to the inverter on/off landings in the >>> green terminal of the OB/FX for the LBCO and reconnect function. >>> > >>> >             I've been down this road before, though a >>> different equipment.  I've used the Aux from a Classic for >>> inverter LBCO and reconnect though its never been fully >>> "tested", although I read "open" and closed" at the un-wired >>> aux landing when I forced it with a high LBCO setting.  Just >>> thinking about the highest reliability. >>> > >>> >         Thanks in advance. >>> > >>> > Bill >>> > >>> > Feather River Solar Electric >>> > Bill Battagin, owner >>> > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >>> > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >>> > Taylorsville, CA  95983 >>> > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >>> > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >>> > Solar Powered since 1982 >>> > Home of the Sunny Side Up >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus >>> software. >>> > www.avast.com >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one >>> doesn't work, try the other: >>> > >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Tue Feb 4 18:36:45 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2025 15:36:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No more Mate3-SL upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The issue is that the SL version does not contain an ethernet port for the network and does not have the ability to utilize Opticsre. So perhaps an SL version would be ideal to have in your service vehicle but many have concluded that Opticsre is priceless for supporting a client effectively especially for most off grid sites that tend to be off the beaten path. Nick On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 5:52 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Can the mate3SL not use the mate3S firmware? Is there a reason to need a > version other than 001.004.007? Or am I misunderstanding your post? > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > On Mon, Feb 3, 2025, 12:50 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Greetings Wrenches, >> >> Perhaps I'm one of the few stuck with a handful of the Mate3-SL units >> that was counting on Outback's promise that they would be upgraded for free >> once the chips became available but that promise was not carried on to the >> new owners. I believe most all of the Flexpower Radian panels AEE offloaded >> at the end shipped with the SL version. They specifically just let me know >> that that program was affiliated only with the Enersys ownership and now >> that they are independent the program is no longer offered. One more reason >> for me to no longer offer their products unless for repairs and like for >> like replacements. Midnite's timing on the release of their new products is >> perfect! Only thing missing now is an effective monitoring platform like >> Opticsre. >> >> Nick >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Feb 4 18:40:12 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2025 15:40:12 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No more Mate3-SL upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If anyone needs a mate 3-S, l still have a few in new stock, if interested contact me off list Jerry On Mon, Feb 3, 2025, 12:50 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Greetings Wrenches, > > Perhaps I'm one of the few stuck with a handful of the Mate3-SL units that > was counting on Outback's promise that they would be upgraded for free once > the chips became available but that promise was not carried on to the new > owners. I believe most all of the Flexpower Radian panels AEE offloaded at > the end shipped with the SL version. They specifically just let me know > that that program was affiliated only with the Enersys ownership and now > that they are independent the program is no longer offered. One more reason > for me to no longer offer their products unless for repairs and like for > like replacements. Midnite's timing on the release of their new products is > perfect! Only thing missing now is an effective monitoring platform like > Opticsre. > > Nick > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Tue Feb 4 22:15:00 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2025 19:15:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No more Mate3-SL upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh OK I totally get it. I guess I just never realized there was ever an offer to change the hardware out to an internet capable upgrade or replacement. Thank you for clarifying. I'm really appreciating remote monitoring options these days whether Midnite, Outback(OpticsRe),Solaredge, or Sol-Ark. It's great to be able to check on remote sites and even adjust settings from the phone or computer. Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Tue, Feb 4, 2025, 3:37 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The issue is that the SL version does not contain an ethernet port for the > network and does not have the ability to utilize Opticsre. So perhaps an SL > version would be ideal to have in your service vehicle but many have > concluded that Opticsre is priceless for supporting a client effectively > especially for most off grid sites that tend to be off the beaten path. > > Nick > > On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 5:52 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Can the mate3SL not use the mate3S firmware? Is there a reason to need a >> version other than 001.004.007? Or am I misunderstanding your post? >> >> Tyrone Houck >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >> 541-787-1366 >> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 3, 2025, 12:50 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Greetings Wrenches, >>> >>> Perhaps I'm one of the few stuck with a handful of the Mate3-SL units >>> that was counting on Outback's promise that they would be upgraded for free >>> once the chips became available but that promise was not carried on to the >>> new owners. I believe most all of the Flexpower Radian panels AEE offloaded >>> at the end shipped with the SL version. They specifically just let me know >>> that that program was affiliated only with the Enersys ownership and now >>> that they are independent the program is no longer offered. One more reason >>> for me to no longer offer their products unless for repairs and like for >>> like replacements. Midnite's timing on the release of their new products is >>> perfect! Only thing missing now is an effective monitoring platform like >>> Opticsre. >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Feb 5 00:32:52 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2025 21:32:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Who makes this racking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Michael: This looks kinda like the DPW/PLP Multi-pole mount. I am not sure if the company is still in business. There are some broken links on their web site. Here is one reference: https://www.solarelectricsupply.com/solar-panel-mounts/ground-mounts/dpw/multi-pole William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, February 4, 2025 10:12 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Michael Morningstar *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Who makes this racking? I've been looking for a racking solution that would allow me to mount 9-12 modules in a single horizontal row in portrait, with the bottom edge 6' above grade and have the ability to adjust tilt angle. I stumbled upon this. Can anyone point me to the manufacturer or recommend something similar? [image: image.png] -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 254065 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 13:37:46 2025 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2025 11:37:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E NEM3.0 In-Reply-To: References: <45c800730a870a1cfc5d73b155565df0@mail.gmail.com> <608B2375-2B60-4C4B-8E1D-BDD95FB4E313@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9CDAA8A9-8ED3-444D-8E81-914BE7B5D52C@gmail.com> William, I’d like to keep the discussion here also. I’m in Colorado so sort of thought that NEM3.0 was in already effect and being billed at the new rates. I understood it was going to represent a dramatic (negative) change for traditional grid-tied customers and your teaser confirms that. Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 719.588.3044 sgsrenewables at gmail.com > On Jan 13, 2025, at 6:59 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Yes count me in > > > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 5:32 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> I say yes please. This is a major change happening and I would like to be as informed as possible. I understood that the billing change had been delayed but it sounds like it is now in effect? >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >>> On Jan 13, 2025, at 5:05 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> I am evaluating my first few bills from PG&E now that I am on the new billing program called NEM3.0. I am finding out some disturbing information. Does anyone on this list desire to start a discussion on the PG&E NEM3.0? Does anyone think we should keep that discussion on this list-serve? >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Feb 6 13:52:07 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2025 13:52:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience Message-ID: Hi All, I am curious if anyone has any experience with the Tigo inverter and energy storage system. It looks very similar to the SMA setup, but maybe a bit farther along in development. Even as just a simple string inverter, it seems fairly reasonably priced. Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Tigo-EI-Residential-Brochure-compressed.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 473015 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 14:28:47 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2025 12:28:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E NEM3.0 In-Reply-To: <9CDAA8A9-8ED3-444D-8E81-914BE7B5D52C@gmail.com> References: <9CDAA8A9-8ED3-444D-8E81-914BE7B5D52C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A244FBA-9386-46B3-9C34-485F842A3F76@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 15:38:07 2025 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2025 13:38:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E NEM3.0 In-Reply-To: <4A244FBA-9386-46B3-9C34-485F842A3F76@gmail.com> References: <4A244FBA-9386-46B3-9C34-485F842A3F76@gmail.com> Message-ID: <185224A9-06FD-41A3-9EB4-9752314A76DE@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 10 15:47:57 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2025 12:47:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Who makes this racking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wattsun HZLA or fixed mount. Not enough resolution to see... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-02-04 10:12 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I've been looking for a racking solution that would allow me to mount > 9-12 modules in a single horizontal row in portrait, with the bottom > edge 6' above grade and have the ability to adjust tilt angle. I > stumbled upon this. Can anyone point me to the manufacturer or > recommend something similar? > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Feb 10 16:16:11 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2025 13:16:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Who makes this racking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's it! Forgot all about that one. Thanks On Mon, Feb 10, 2025 at 12:48 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wattsun HZLA or fixed mount. Not enough resolution to see... > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-02-04 10:12 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I've been looking for a racking solution that would allow me to mount 9-12 > modules in a single horizontal row in portrait, with the bottom edge 6' > above grade and have the ability to adjust tilt angle. I stumbled upon > this. Can anyone point me to the manufacturer or recommend something > similar? > > [image: image.png] > -- > > > > Michael Morningstar > > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Mon Feb 10 16:37:17 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2025 13:37:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Winco pss12h 12v start to dry contact start Message-ID: Greetings wrenches, We recently replaced an Outback Fx system with a MN15-12K-AIO and are trying to figure out how to convert the exiting winco genetic from a relay driven 12v auto start to a 2 wire dry contact start. Their tech support is a pain to get ahold of and I figured there are probably folks in here knowledgeable about this kind of thing. I'm pretty confident it is 2wire capable just unsure about what needs to be done to switch it. Thanks in advance Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com Tue Feb 11 16:13:53 2025 From: travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com (Travis Knipple) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 16:13:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] (no subject) Message-ID: Does anyone have a lead for me on an Awning Mount for panels? Sunmodo discontinued theirs. Everything else looks like an Amazon special, so I'm hoping to find someone who has used a mount and recommends it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 16:26:02 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 14:26:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Zero sell permitting Message-ID: <226DBF10-3980-4C26-9E63-17763B1781BE@gmail.com> When doing a zero sell install. What are people’s experience with needing utility approval? It would seem as being behind the meter you don’t need it. But just wondering as I’ve had a few people ask me especially from California given the ridiculously high electricity costs. Thanks in advance Jay From iesbatteries at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 16:33:59 2025 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 16:33:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We often use Solar Rack Works low profile roof/ground mount "upside down" It makes for a very strong awning mount. Jeff at 1-505-503-6459 Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 Island Energy Storage On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 4:15 PM Travis Knipple via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Does anyone have a lead for me on an Awning Mount for panels? Sunmodo > discontinued theirs. Everything else looks like an Amazon special, so I'm > hoping to find someone who has used a mount and recommends it. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 11 16:56:29 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 13:56:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Zero sell permitting In-Reply-To: <226DBF10-3980-4C26-9E63-17763B1781BE@gmail.com> References: <226DBF10-3980-4C26-9E63-17763B1781BE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Insurance could be denied in a claim if you do not have a building permit or at least approval of AHJ. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-02-11 1:26 pm, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > When doing a zero sell install. What are people's experience with > needing utility approval? > > It would seem as being behind the meter you don't need it. But just > wondering as I've had a few people ask me especially from California > given the ridiculously high electricity costs. > > Thanks in advance > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Tue Feb 11 17:16:53 2025 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:16:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Zero sell permitting In-Reply-To: <226DBF10-3980-4C26-9E63-17763B1781BE@gmail.com> References: <226DBF10-3980-4C26-9E63-17763B1781BE@gmail.com> Message-ID: The utility here in Montana requires any small-generator facility to have an interconnection agreement with them. A standard net-metered agreement is called a Level 1 Agreement and a non-export system falls into their Level 3 Agreement. The relevant text from that agreement is as follows: *The... requirements are designed to ensure that the Small Generator Facility... are designed to prevent back-feeding of power from the generating facility to the utility grid during power outages, and to match... power characteristics with respect to voltage and frequency.* Cheers, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Feb 11 17:36:37 2025 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 16:36:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Zero sell permitting In-Reply-To: References: <226DBF10-3980-4C26-9E63-17763B1781BE@gmail.com> Message-ID: The interesting thing to me is that a ton of industrial equipment has regenerative braking that puts power back "on the grid". Lots of things with a frequency drive and a motor that stops has been built this way for 30 years. Things that stop like CNC machines and elevators. Pretty much anything that stops quickly and doesn't have a big braking resistor on it just pumps the power back to the AC side. In 20 years of owning and running industrial facilities, no utility has ever once had any concern about that. FWIW, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 4:18 PM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The utility here in Montana requires any small-generator facility to have > an interconnection agreement with them. A standard net-metered agreement > is called a Level 1 Agreement and a non-export system falls into their > Level 3 Agreement. The relevant text from that agreement is as follows: > > *The... requirements are designed to ensure that the Small Generator > Facility... are designed to prevent back-feeding of power from the > generating facility to the utility grid during power outages, and to > match... power characteristics with respect to voltage and frequency.* > > Cheers, > Sam > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > > SAM HARALDSON > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 18:01:02 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 16:01:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Zero sell permitting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 18:04:14 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 16:04:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Zero sell permitting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Tue Feb 11 18:06:32 2025 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 16:06:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Zero sell permitting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > So to be clear. A zero sell is still required to get a net metered > agreement? > Yes, for our particular utility a non-export (or as you're referring to it, zero sell) system requires an approved interconnection agreement. Once installed the utility reserves the right to perform an in-person witness test. Cheers, Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 18:17:13 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:17:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A local professional of ours has been producing these for decades. Everyone I've spoken to about the finished product has been very happy with the solution and his passionate support services. Quite slick. https://power-structures.com/ On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 1:15 PM Travis Knipple via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Does anyone have a lead for me on an Awning Mount for panels? Sunmodo > discontinued theirs. Everything else looks like an Amazon special, so I'm > hoping to find someone who has used a mount and recommends it. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Feb 11 18:35:26 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 18:35:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right now. There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional stacks with communication cabling. The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What will happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then shut down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any stack. That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This is all very time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it off. The whole system goes haywire. Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack and charge it to 100% with an external charger. By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid system. I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery modules. Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my opinion. I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution to these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 18:46:56 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 15:46:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the internet. Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will likely be imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the others and charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it may be an rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. Zero issues yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really struck a nerve as they only just recently got their internet monitoring functional.. having to go back to every site is a serious pain just to ensure what should be a basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to contact me offsite if you have any other questions I might be able to help with. Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right now. > There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For > those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single > BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a > circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication > number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional > stacks with communication cabling. > > The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What will > happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then shut > down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system > shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any > stack. > > That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just shut > off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change all > of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to re-recognize > the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This is all very > time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut down. Even if a > battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it off. The whole > system goes haywire. > > Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users need > not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer service > will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the stock, > but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is critical. > One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one of 15 > cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack and > charge it to 100% with an external charger. > > By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost pay > for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this not to > happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me that it > didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it happened. That > isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid system. > > I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this > respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn > off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a > fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery > modules. > > Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic RMA. > They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at almost > twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the case of > the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't have) > directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. Totally > unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my opinion. > > I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution to > these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good > success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers > purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the > cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. > > Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Feb 11 18:54:16 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 16:54:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5f1e64e3-ce48-4bf1-b26b-2516141684d9@solarray.com> I had a similar situation with Homegrid, where upon commissioning the system wouldn't even work, because one battery was lower than the others.  After doing the diagnostics (a 2nd trip) I got the system operational minus a battery.  Then on a third trip, after buying a PC lap top, and getting their special dongle, I went back, and had to sit on site for 3 hours charging the one weak battery with the rest shut off.  I didn't have to take it a part though.  It seems to be working now, and this is a stand alone off grid, sitting in a field. Tech support was decent, I like that they have a built in heater, and that its closer to actual 48 v nominal, (one less cell than others).  However, I have not speced any more since. To be fair, I've had trouble with most of the LiPO4 offerings so far. Simpliphi: complete 4 battery failure, customer out of commission for 2 months.  Probably due to an XW over voltage. Fortress: shutdowns n the middle of the day at 100% SOC due to a firmware issue.  Rotten meat in the freezer. Customer gave up and sold the ranch. Homegrid: as stated EG4: complete failure of 2 battery system after a grid outage of 2 hours.  System down for months before getting replacements. Rubix: so far so good, but instructions not very clear. 24 v offering, but no heater. Midnite Powerflo: I'm about to install 2 systems next week in Puerto Rico, so we'll see. I'm still doing HUP lead acid for off grid, because I know what its going to do.  LiPO4 is just not quite ready for off grid, until all these manus can get their firmware together, get heating systems built in, and get the price lower. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/11/2025 4:35 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right > now. There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error > state. For those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are > stacked with a single BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. > Each battery module has a circuit breaker and dip switches to identify > the battery communication number and location in the stack. Each BMS > can be paralleled to additional stacks with communication cabling. > > The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What > will happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and > then shut down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and > the system shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals > on the BMS of any stack. > > That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just > shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically > change all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS > to re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of > parallel). This is all very time consuming and requires the inverter > system to be shut down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, > you can't just turn it off. The whole system goes haywire. > Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users > need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer > service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery > in the stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where > uptime is critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was > diagnosed as one of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to > take it out of the stack and charge it to 100% with an external charger. > > By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost > pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for > this not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested > to me that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why > it happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an > off-grid system. > > I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this > respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply > turn off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In > fact, a fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of > battery modules. > > Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic > RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at > almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble > the case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which > I don't have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the > battery case. Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is > their problem in my opinion. > > I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution > to these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty > good success installing some that I sold and quite a few that > consumers purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's > easier to eat the cost of a battery here and there for customer > satisfaction. > > Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 20:05:25 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 18:05:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5727F3F1-196B-4F89-AE5D-235B9641B8D6@gmail.com> Hi Jason Wow just wow. That’s so screwed up on so many levels. Obviously designed by someone who’s never installed, repaired or designed anything. I agree with EG4. They might actually be the largest single supplier in the USA feom one source I talked to. I don’t think anyone yet has combined all the needed ingredients for the perfect battery. Jay > On Feb 11, 2025, at 4:37 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hi Wrenches, > > I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right now. There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional stacks with communication cabling. > > The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What will happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then shut down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any stack. > > That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This is all very time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it off. The whole system goes haywire. > > Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack and charge it to 100% with an external charger. > > By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid system. > > I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery modules. > > Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my opinion. > > I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution to these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. > > Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Feb 11 21:03:47 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 21:03:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Zero sell permitting In-Reply-To: <226DBF10-3980-4C26-9E63-17763B1781BE@gmail.com> References: <226DBF10-3980-4C26-9E63-17763B1781BE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Zero sell is a bit of an ambiguous term, at least as far as inverter manufacturers are concerned. For example, Enphase offers a "no export" grid profile for it's microinverters, but it relies on consumption CTs that are not completely accurate and the speed at which it can curtail solar will inevitably allow some power to flow in reverse through the meter. We have a municipal utility here that flips out if a watt of reverse current is detected. They immediately fire off a nasty letter to the owner threatening to disconnect their electric service if not rectified immediately. So be careful about what equipment you are installing and whether it is truly capable of actual no export. If that is the case, it's behind the meter, and here in Florida technically the utility would have no leg to stand on in terms of restricting it. No netmetering agreement would be required in my opinion. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 4:28 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > When doing a zero sell install. What are people’s experience with needing > utility approval? > > It would seem as being behind the meter you don’t need it. But just > wondering as I’ve had a few people ask me especially from California given > the ridiculously high electricity costs. > > Thanks in advance > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Feb 11 21:17:35 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 21:17:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet connectivity on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are both Gen 3. One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site with one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to today. One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally that is low voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but customer service wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? That's not a solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens. Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for diagnostics at a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a Windows laptop and a battery charger is not ideal for sure. The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and we're sending you a new one, valued customer." No such luck. Jason On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the internet. > Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will likely be > imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the others and > charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it may be an > rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. Zero issues > yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really struck a nerve as > they only just recently got their internet monitoring functional.. having > to go back to every site is a serious pain just to ensure what should be a > basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to contact me offsite if you > have any other questions I might be able to help with. > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right now. >> There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For >> those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single >> BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a >> circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication >> number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional >> stacks with communication cabling. >> >> The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What will >> happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then shut >> down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system >> shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any >> stack. >> >> That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just shut >> off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change all >> of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to re-recognize >> the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This is all very >> time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut down. Even if a >> battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it off. The whole >> system goes haywire. >> >> Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users need >> not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer service >> will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the stock, >> but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is critical. >> One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one of 15 >> cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack and >> charge it to 100% with an external charger. >> >> By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost >> pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this >> not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me >> that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it >> happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid >> system. >> >> I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this >> respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn >> off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a >> fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery >> modules. >> >> Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic RMA. >> They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at almost >> twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the case of >> the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't have) >> directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. Totally >> unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my opinion. >> >> I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution to >> these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good >> success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers >> purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the >> cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. >> >> Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Feb 11 23:15:48 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 21:15:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Zero sell permitting In-Reply-To: References: <226DBF10-3980-4C26-9E63-17763B1781BE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <15ee7514-d9b6-4388-ae6f-4da8c8dfc57c@solarray.com> I agree with Jason, the utility doesn't have a say in the matter.  Pull only the necessary permits with the local AHJ, and worry about utility approval only if the AHJ requires it.   I've worked in jurisdictions from Hawaii to Puerto Rico, Oklahoma, Haiti, Morocco, Tansania, New Mexico, Mexico, Arizona, Wyoming, California, Colorado, and Texas. You pull the permit, don't ask too many questions, and only get the utility or others involved when there's no way around them. We have a lot of folks in 2025 over stepping their authority. Its our job to hold the line, and get the job done safely. Oh and finally, this concept that insurance companies are going to drop coverage?  Has that actually happened?  Once again, don't over think it, respond my friends to actual problems, not ones we dream up in our late night fevers. We are the installers of the solution, we are not the problem. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/11/2025 7:03 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Zero sell is a bit of an ambiguous term, at least as far as inverter > manufacturers are concerned. For example, Enphase offers a "no export" > grid profile for it's microinverters, but it relies on consumption CTs > that are not completely accurate and the speed at which it can curtail > solar will inevitably allow some power to flow in reverse through the > meter. We have a municipal utility here that flips out if a watt of > reverse current is detected. They immediately fire off a nasty letter > to the owner threatening to disconnect their electric service if not > rectified immediately. > > So be careful about what equipment you are installing and whether it > is truly capable of actual no export. If that is the case, it's behind > the meter, and here in Florida technically the utility would have no > leg to stand on in terms of restricting it. No netmetering agreement > would be required in my opinion. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 4:28 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > When doing a zero sell install. What are people’s experience with > needing utility approval? > > It would seem as being behind the meter you don’t need it. But > just wondering as I’ve had a few people ask me especially from > California given the ridiculously high electricity costs. > > Thanks in advance > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Tue Feb 11 23:19:48 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 23:19:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No more Mate3-SL upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I occasionally get customers who do not want to be connected to the internet. I have a customer who can only use his cell phone by hiking up to his "phone booth" in the woods above his house that has a seat with a shelf for his phone, pencil and paper.!!! On Tue, Feb 4, 2025 at 10:16 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Oh OK I totally get it. I guess I just never realized there was ever an > offer to change the hardware out to an internet capable upgrade or > replacement. Thank you for clarifying. I'm really appreciating remote > monitoring options these days whether Midnite, Outback(OpticsRe),Solaredge, > or Sol-Ark. It's great to be able to check on remote sites and even adjust > settings from the phone or computer. > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > > On Tue, Feb 4, 2025, 3:37 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> The issue is that the SL version does not contain an ethernet port for >> the network and does not have the ability to utilize Opticsre. So perhaps >> an SL version would be ideal to have in your service vehicle but many have >> concluded that Opticsre is priceless for supporting a client effectively >> especially for most off grid sites that tend to be off the beaten path. >> >> Nick >> >> On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 5:52 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Can the mate3SL not use the mate3S firmware? Is there a reason to need a >>> version other than 001.004.007? Or am I misunderstanding your post? >>> >>> Tyrone Houck >>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >>> 541-787-1366 >>> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 3, 2025, 12:50 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Greetings Wrenches, >>>> >>>> Perhaps I'm one of the few stuck with a handful of the Mate3-SL units >>>> that was counting on Outback's promise that they would be upgraded for free >>>> once the chips became available but that promise was not carried on to the >>>> new owners. I believe most all of the Flexpower Radian panels AEE offloaded >>>> at the end shipped with the SL version. They specifically just let me know >>>> that that program was affiliated only with the Enersys ownership and now >>>> that they are independent the program is no longer offered. One more reason >>>> for me to no longer offer their products unless for repairs and like for >>>> like replacements. Midnite's timing on the release of their new products is >>>> perfect! Only thing missing now is an effective monitoring platform like >>>> Opticsre. >>>> >>>> Nick >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Feb 12 00:43:02 2025 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 21:43:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No more Mate3-SL upgrades In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e053743-22f5-42f8-823e-0e8c80e8d43c@psln.com> That feller sounds a little like me.  For us, Its a mile drive down the road for cell service.  I always have a sharp pencil handy.  We thought the internet was bad, here comes AI. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 2/11/2025 8:19 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > I occasionally get customers who do not want to be connected to the > internet.  I have a customer who can only use his cell phone by hiking > up to his "phone booth" in the woods above his house that has a seat > with a shelf for his phone, pencil and paper.!!! > > On Tue, Feb 4, 2025 at 10:16 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Oh OK I totally get it. I guess I just never realized there was > ever an offer to change the hardware out to an internet capable > upgrade or replacement. Thank you for clarifying. I'm really > appreciating remote monitoring options these days whether Midnite, > Outback(OpticsRe),Solaredge, or Sol-Ark. It's great to be able to > check on remote sites and even adjust settings from the phone or > computer. > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > On Tue, Feb 4, 2025, 3:37 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > The issue is that the SL version does not contain an ethernet > port for the network and does not have the ability to utilize > Opticsre. So perhaps an SL version would be ideal to have in > your service vehicle but many have concluded that Opticsre is > priceless for supporting a client effectively especially for > most off grid sites that tend to be off the beaten path. > > Nick > > On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 5:52 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Can the mate3SL not use the mate3S firmware? Is there a > reason to need a version other than 001.004.007? Or am I > misunderstanding your post? > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > On Mon, Feb 3, 2025, 12:50 PM Nick Lucchese via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Greetings Wrenches, > > Perhaps I'm one of the few stuck with a handful of the > Mate3-SL units that was counting on Outback's promise > that they would be upgraded for free once the chips > became available but that promise was not carried on > to the new owners. I believe most all of the Flexpower > Radian panels AEE offloaded at the end shipped with > the SL version. They specifically just let me know > that that program was affiliated only with the Enersys > ownership and now that they are independent the > program is no longer offered. One more reason for me > to no longer offer their products unless for repairs > and like for like replacements. Midnite's timing on > the release of their new products is perfect! Only > thing missing now is an effective monitoring platform > like Opticsre. > > Nick > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Feb 12 00:56:21 2025 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 21:56:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: <5f1e64e3-ce48-4bf1-b26b-2516141684d9@solarray.com> References: <5f1e64e3-ce48-4bf1-b26b-2516141684d9@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray,             Just finished a couple Midnite's Powerflo16's with a Rosie and Barcelona.  Two weeks now all seems to be working well, including closed loop with the Rosie and CC.  A few small hiccups during install mostly due to lack of experience with this equipment but tech support was (always has been) excellent.  If we can't trust Midnite with this new rollout of equipment, we're all going to hell in a hand basket.  Fortuitous timing with Outback on the ropes. RIP boB, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 2/11/2025 3:54 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > I had a similar situation with Homegrid, where upon commissioning the > system wouldn't even work, because one battery was lower than the > others.  After doing the diagnostics (a 2nd trip) I got the system > operational minus a battery.  Then on a third trip, after buying a PC > lap top, and getting their special dongle, I went back, and had to sit > on site for 3 hours charging the one weak battery with the rest shut > off.  I didn't have to take it a part though.  It seems to be working > now, and this is a stand alone off grid, sitting in a field. > > Tech support was decent, I like that they have a built in heater, and > that its closer to actual 48 v nominal, (one less cell than others).  > However, I have not speced any more since. > > To be fair, I've had trouble with most of the LiPO4 offerings so far. > Simpliphi: complete 4 battery failure, customer out of commission for > 2 months.  Probably due to an XW over voltage. > > Fortress: shutdowns n the middle of the day at 100% SOC due to a > firmware issue.  Rotten meat in the freezer. Customer gave up and sold > the ranch. > > Homegrid: as stated > > EG4: complete failure of 2 battery system after a grid outage of 2 > hours.  System down for months before getting replacements. > > Rubix: so far so good, but instructions not very clear. 24 v offering, > but no heater. > > Midnite Powerflo: I'm about to install 2 systems next week in Puerto > Rico, so we'll see. > > I'm still doing HUP lead acid for off grid, because I know what its > going to do.  LiPO4 is just not quite ready for off grid, until all > these manus can get their firmware together, get heating systems built > in, and get the price lower. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 2/11/2025 4:35 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right >> now. There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error >> state. For those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are >> stacked with a single BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. >> Each battery module has a circuit breaker and dip switches to >> identify the battery communication number and location in the stack. >> Each BMS can be paralleled to additional stacks with communication >> cabling. >> >> The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What >> will happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and >> then shut down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and >> the system shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals >> on the BMS of any stack. >> >> That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just >> shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically >> change all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the >> BMS to re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of >> parallel). This is all very time consuming and requires the inverter >> system to be shut down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, >> you can't just turn it off. The whole system goes haywire. >> Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users >> need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. >> Customer service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the >> battery in the stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid >> system where uptime is critical. One of the faulty modules I am >> dealing with was diagnosed as one of 15 cells with low voltage. The >> "solution" is to take it out of the stack and charge it to 100% with >> an external charger. >> >> By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can >> almost pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole >> idea for this not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was >> suggested to me that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and >> that is why it happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure >> in an off-grid system. >> >> I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this >> respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply >> turn off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. >> In fact, a fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or >> stacks of battery modules. >> >> Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic >> RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially >> at almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to >> disassemble the case of the battery and charge it with an external >> charger (which I don't have) directly from the terminals that are >> internal to the battery case. Totally unacceptable. Whatever is >> inside that case is their problem in my opinion. >> >> I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution >> to these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty >> good success installing some that I sold and quite a few that >> consumers purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's >> easier to eat the cost of a battery here and there for customer >> satisfaction. >> >> Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Wed Feb 12 01:07:25 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2025 20:07:25 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The current trend of manufacturers resisting issuing RMAs is concerning. The amount of work they want us to do to confirm their problem is staggering (Looking at you SolarEdge). With that said, we only have 7 systems with HomeGrid batteries. We have had only one issue with them and it was firmware related. Unfortunately their firmware upgrade process is a total kludge so much so that like Jason, I just let them take over my laptop and let them handle it. It really made me appreciate Discover's software and firmware update process. We have a lot of Discover batteries out there and like the EG4s you can just shut off the bad battery and move on. In addition, if you have a battery module that is "dark start low" you can actually "charge" it (it's more like spilling electricity) from a good battery in the stack by turning off all the loads and charging sources (i.e. the inverter) and all the battery modules except one good one and the bad one. After you get the low one to a decent state of charge you can fire everything up and put a good balance charge on the entire stack. I have found their support to be great as well. They also just took their remote battery monitoring out of beta so now you can see battery info directly online. Which is nice. I am a big fan of having redundant monitoring so we can "trust but verify" the data being reported by the various components. I am still bummed they ended production of the 42-48-6650, the build quality was ridiculously good. I am little leary of their replacement, the 48-48-5120, but it seems to be doing fine in our installs. It has only been a year or so, so the jury is still out. But all the same features I described above apply. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 4:18 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet > connectivity on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are > both Gen 3. > > One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site with > one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even > recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. > > The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to today. > One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally that is > low voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but customer > service wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? That's not > a solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens. > > Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for diagnostics > at a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a Windows laptop > and a battery charger is not ideal for sure. > > The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today > remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which > isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and > we're sending you a new one, valued customer." > > No such luck. > > Jason > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the internet. >> Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will likely be >> imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the others and >> charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it may be an >> rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. Zero issues >> yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really struck a nerve as >> they only just recently got their internet monitoring functional.. having >> to go back to every site is a serious pain just to ensure what should be a >> basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to contact me offsite if you >> have any other questions I might be able to help with. >> Tyrone Houck >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >> 541-787-1366 >> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >> >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right now. >>> There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For >>> those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single >>> BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a >>> circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication >>> number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional >>> stacks with communication cabling. >>> >>> The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What will >>> happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then shut >>> down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system >>> shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any >>> stack. >>> >>> That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just >>> shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change >>> all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to >>> re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This >>> is all very time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut >>> down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it >>> off. The whole system goes haywire. >>> >>> Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users >>> need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer >>> service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the >>> stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is >>> critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one >>> of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack >>> and charge it to 100% with an external charger. >>> >>> By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost >>> pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this >>> not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me >>> that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it >>> happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid >>> system. >>> >>> I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this >>> respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn >>> off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a >>> fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery >>> modules. >>> >>> Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic >>> RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at >>> almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the >>> case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't >>> have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. >>> Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my >>> opinion. >>> >>> I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution to >>> these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good >>> success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers >>> purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the >>> cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. >>> >>> Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Feb 12 07:10:26 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2025 07:10:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I see the Power flo is limited to 16 stacked (80kWh). Is there any way around that limitation? Sounds like I need to talk to Midnite. I'm alarmed by the warranty/diagnostics runaround with Sol-Ark and HomeGrid. On the other hand, I'm also considering going the EG4 route and treating batteries as "disposable" at this point. PV panels have reached that point for all intents and purposes. Rolling a truck costs more than a 400W panel these days. For my off-grid clients on remote islands, a "boat float" is no trivial cost. A $1300 battery that pops in with an hour of labor is an appealing way to go. On Wed, Feb 12, 2025, 1:43 AM Tyrone Houck wrote: > The one time they made me open a module and test it's internal voltage > they said it was too low and promptly declared it RMA worthy. I definitely > recommend having the laptop and necessary cables to troubleshoot anytime > you are having homegrid issues. It allows checking the individual cells and > any other internal discrepancies. > The fact that they only have a 1 year warranty if not connected to > internet and registered to their network is bogus though. Especially pissed > I had to find that out from tech support and now have to explain that to > customers who thought they had a 10 year warranty. > > From here on out I'm all in with Midnite. I've had a great experience with > all the AIO/powerflo combo systems I've installed. Great connectivity and > closed loop communication. The tech support is excellent too. > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:17 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet >> connectivity on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are >> both Gen 3. >> >> One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site with >> one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even >> recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. >> >> The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to >> today. One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally >> that is low voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but >> customer service wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? >> That's not a solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens. >> >> Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for diagnostics >> at a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a Windows laptop >> and a battery charger is not ideal for sure. >> >> The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today >> remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which >> isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and >> we're sending you a new one, valued customer." >> >> No such luck. >> >> Jason >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the internet. >>> Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will likely be >>> imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the others and >>> charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it may be an >>> rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. Zero issues >>> yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really struck a nerve as >>> they only just recently got their internet monitoring functional.. having >>> to go back to every site is a serious pain just to ensure what should be a >>> basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to contact me offsite if you >>> have any other questions I might be able to help with. >>> Tyrone Houck >>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >>> 541-787-1366 >>> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right now. >>>> There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For >>>> those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single >>>> BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a >>>> circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication >>>> number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional >>>> stacks with communication cabling. >>>> >>>> The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What >>>> will happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then >>>> shut down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system >>>> shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any >>>> stack. >>>> >>>> That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just >>>> shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change >>>> all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to >>>> re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This >>>> is all very time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut >>>> down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it >>>> off. The whole system goes haywire. >>>> >>>> Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users >>>> need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer >>>> service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the >>>> stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is >>>> critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one >>>> of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack >>>> and charge it to 100% with an external charger. >>>> >>>> By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost >>>> pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this >>>> not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me >>>> that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it >>>> happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid >>>> system. >>>> >>>> I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this >>>> respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn >>>> off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a >>>> fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery >>>> modules. >>>> >>>> Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic >>>> RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at >>>> almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the >>>> case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't >>>> have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. >>>> Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my >>>> opinion. >>>> >>>> I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution >>>> to these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good >>>> success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers >>>> purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the >>>> cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. >>>> >>>> Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Feb 12 14:37:34 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2025 14:37:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Zero sell permitting In-Reply-To: <15ee7514-d9b6-4388-ae6f-4da8c8dfc57c@solarray.com> References: <226DBF10-3980-4C26-9E63-17763B1781BE@gmail.com> <15ee7514-d9b6-4388-ae6f-4da8c8dfc57c@solarray.com> Message-ID: Regarding the insurance question, unfortunately I have to report the answer is yes. The Florida insurance market is a disgusting mess in general, but many insurers have started to reject insuring solar panels altogether, and some will not allow netmetering. We also have issues with insurers not allowing Tier 2 interconnections, which means anything over 11,764 Watts DC. The insurers simply do not understand the risk. The Tier 2 resistance is about insurance not understanding the liability coverage that is necessary for the interconnection paperwork. Usually this is handled with a separate umbrella policy of $1 million. It is ridiculous because the same liabilities exist for the home insurer on a Tier 1 or Tier 2 system. The additional insurance for a Tier 2 system does not get the insurer off the hook for a liability claim under $1 million. The insurers that are rejecting netmetering are trying to claim that selling excess power to the utility makes the property owner a "business," and commercial insurance requirements kick in. They are just clueless, but our legislature is spineless against the insurance industry. It's so bad, it almost seems that the utilities are conspiring with the insurance companies to make my life miserable and thwart residential adoption of solar energy. I wouldn't put it past them. The Public Service Commission is also in the utility lobbyists' pockets. Frankly, it's amazing that we still have netmetering at this point. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 11:16 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I agree with Jason, the utility doesn't have a say in the matter. Pull > only the necessary permits with the local AHJ, and worry about utility > approval only if the AHJ requires it. I've worked in jurisdictions from > Hawaii to Puerto Rico, Oklahoma, Haiti, Morocco, Tansania, New Mexico, > Mexico, Arizona, Wyoming, California, Colorado, and Texas. > > You pull the permit, don't ask too many questions, and only get the > utility or others involved when there's no way around them. > > We have a lot of folks in 2025 over stepping their authority. Its our job > to hold the line, and get the job done safely. > > Oh and finally, this concept that insurance companies are going to drop > coverage? Has that actually happened? Once again, don't over think it, > respond my friends to actual problems, not ones we dream up in our late > night fevers. > > We are the installers of the solution, we are not the problem. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 2/11/2025 7:03 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Zero sell is a bit of an ambiguous term, at least as far as inverter > manufacturers are concerned. For example, Enphase offers a "no export" grid > profile for it's microinverters, but it relies on consumption CTs that are > not completely accurate and the speed at which it can curtail solar will > inevitably allow some power to flow in reverse through the meter. We have a > municipal utility here that flips out if a watt of reverse current is > detected. They immediately fire off a nasty letter to the owner threatening > to disconnect their electric service if not rectified immediately. > > So be careful about what equipment you are installing and whether it is > truly capable of actual no export. If that is the case, it's behind the > meter, and here in Florida technically the utility would have no leg to > stand on in terms of restricting it. No netmetering agreement would be > required in my opinion. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 4:28 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> When doing a zero sell install. What are people’s experience with needing >> utility approval? >> >> It would seem as being behind the meter you don’t need it. But just >> wondering as I’ve had a few people ask me especially from California given >> the ridiculously high electricity costs. >> >> Thanks in advance >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Feb 12 17:22:07 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2025 22:22:07 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90b9d2ca-b3db-5cc9-d556-8f39e76ae411@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Thanks for the feedback, Lou.  Yep, they all seem to be borrowing the "delay and deny" tactic from the insurance industry. It's an epidemic. Solar module manufacturers are doing this, too (I'm looking at you, REC and Silfab, who have given me the D&D treatment on two clear-cut warranty issues recently). I will continue to give Enphase kudos for having readily available and mostly competent customer service reps and a refreshingly liberal warranty process, especially if you are experienced and know how to work the customer service reps correctly to lead them to the right answer. Regarding the firmware issues on inverters and batteries, I have high hopes for Midnite's AIO and MNPowerflo, given their claims that firmware updates are tested, simultaneous, and seamless. This is a far cry from Sol-Ark's new policy of refusing to do firmware updates unless a technician is standing by on-site. It sounds like Midnite is listening, and the rest are content with accepting mediocrity and pushing issues onto installers. And don't get me started about HomeGrid's pathetic app and registration process... That little Gen 3 WiFi antenna gives you such high hopes, only to end in huge disappointment. The app doesn't even seem to work. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 1:08 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > The current trend of manufacturers resisting issuing RMAs is concerning. The > amount of work they want us to do to confirm their problem is staggering > (Looking at you SolarEdge). With that said, we only have 7 systems with > HomeGrid batteries. We have had only one issue with them and it was firmware > related. Unfortunately their firmware upgrade process is a total kludge so > much so that like Jason, I  just let them take over my laptop and let them > handle it. It really made me appreciate Discover's software and firmware > update process. We have a lot of Discover batteries out there and like > the EG4s you can just shut off the bad battery and move on. In addition, if > you have a battery module that is "dark start low" you can actually "charge" > it (it's more like spilling electricity) from a good battery in the stack by > turning off all the loads and charging sources (i.e. the inverter) and all the > battery modules except one good one and the bad one. After you get the low one > to a decent state of charge you can fire everything up and put a good balance > charge on the entire stack. I have found their support to be great as well. > They also just took their remote battery monitoring out of beta so now you can > see battery info directly online. Which is nice. I am a big fan of having > redundant monitoring so we can "trust but verify" the data being reported by > the various components. I am still bummed they ended production of > the 42-48-6650, the build quality was ridiculously good. I am little leary of > their replacement, the 48-48-5120, but it seems to be doing fine in our > installs. It has only been a year or so, so the jury is still out. But all the > same features I described above apply.  > > > Aloha, > > > Lou Russo  > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com [lou at spreesolarsystems.com] > Office - 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC  > CT-34322 > > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 4:18 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > > For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet connectivity > > on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are both Gen 3. > > > > > > One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site with > > one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even > > recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. > > > > > > The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to today. > > One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally that is low > > voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but customer service > > wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? That's not a > > solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens.  > > > > > > Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for diagnostics at > > a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a Windows laptop and > > a battery charger is not ideal for sure.  > > > > > > The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today > > remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which > > isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and > > we're sending you a new one, valued customer." > > > > > > No such luck.  > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > > > > wrote: > > > > > Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the internet. > > > Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will likely be > > > imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the others and > > > charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it may be an > > > rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. Zero > > > issues yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really struck a > > > nerve as they only just recently got their internet monitoring > > > functional.. having to go back to every site is a serious pain just to > > > ensure what should be a basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to > > > contact me offsite if you have any other questions I might be able > > > to  help with. > > > Tyrone Houck > > > Oregon Solarworks LLC  > > > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > > > 541-787-1366  > > > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com [tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com] > > > > > >     > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right now. > > > > There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For > > > > those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a > > > > single BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module > > > > has a circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery > > > > communication number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be > > > > paralleled to additional stacks with communication cabling.  > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What will > > > > happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then > > > > shut down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the > > > > system shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the > > > > BMS of any stack. > > > > > > > > > > > > That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just > > > > shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically > > > > change all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS > > > > to re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). > > > > This is all very time consuming and requires the inverter system to be > > > > shut down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, you can't just > > > > turn it off. The whole system goes haywire.  > > > >   > > > > Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users > > > > need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer > > > > service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in > > > > the stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where > > > > uptime is critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was > > > > diagnosed as one of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take > > > > it out of the stack and charge it to 100% with an external charger.  > > > > > > > > > > > > By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost > > > > pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this > > > > not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me > > > > that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it > > > > happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid > > > > system.  > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this > > > > respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply > > > > turn off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In > > > > fact, a fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of > > > > battery modules.  > > > > > > > > > > > > Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic > > > > RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at > > > > almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the > > > > case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I > > > > don't have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery > > > > case. Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their > > > > problem in my opinion.  > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution to > > > > these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good > > > > success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers > > > > purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the > > > > cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? > > > > > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski  > > > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > > > > the other: > > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > > other: > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Thu Feb 13 07:52:21 2025 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 12:52:21 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Re: Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: <5f1e64e3-ce48-4bf1-b26b-2516141684d9@solarray.com> References: <5f1e64e3-ce48-4bf1-b26b-2516141684d9@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, Have you tried Discover batteries? I'm two months into a system upgrade at my house with Victron and Discover and after working out some initial programming issues, it's been working flawlessly. Thanks, Will ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray Walters via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2025 6:54 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Ray Walters Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. I had a similar situation with Homegrid, where upon commissioning the system wouldn't even work, because one battery was lower than the others. After doing the diagnostics (a 2nd trip) I got the system operational minus a battery. Then on a third trip, after buying a PC lap top, and getting their special dongle, I went back, and had to sit on site for 3 hours charging the one weak battery with the rest shut off. I didn't have to take it a part though. It seems to be working now, and this is a stand alone off grid, sitting in a field. Tech support was decent, I like that they have a built in heater, and that its closer to actual 48 v nominal, (one less cell than others). However, I have not speced any more since. To be fair, I've had trouble with most of the LiPO4 offerings so far. Simpliphi: complete 4 battery failure, customer out of commission for 2 months. Probably due to an XW over voltage. Fortress: shutdowns n the middle of the day at 100% SOC due to a firmware issue. Rotten meat in the freezer. Customer gave up and sold the ranch. Homegrid: as stated EG4: complete failure of 2 battery system after a grid outage of 2 hours. System down for months before getting replacements. Rubix: so far so good, but instructions not very clear. 24 v offering, but no heater. Midnite Powerflo: I'm about to install 2 systems next week in Puerto Rico, so we'll see. I'm still doing HUP lead acid for off grid, because I know what its going to do. LiPO4 is just not quite ready for off grid, until all these manus can get their firmware together, get heating systems built in, and get the price lower. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/11/2025 4:35 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right > now. There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error > state. For those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are > stacked with a single BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. > Each battery module has a circuit breaker and dip switches to identify > the battery communication number and location in the stack. Each BMS > can be paralleled to additional stacks with communication cabling. > > The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What > will happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and > then shut down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and > the system shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals > on the BMS of any stack. > > That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just > shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically > change all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS > to re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of > parallel). This is all very time consuming and requires the inverter > system to be shut down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, > you can't just turn it off. The whole system goes haywire. > Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users > need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer > service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery > in the stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where > uptime is critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was > diagnosed as one of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to > take it out of the stack and charge it to 100% with an external charger. > > By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost > pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for > this not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested > to me that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why > it happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an > off-grid system. > > I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this > respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply > turn off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In > fact, a fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of > battery modules. > > Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic > RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at > almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble > the case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which > I don't have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the > battery case. Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is > their problem in my opinion. > > I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution > to these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty > good success installing some that I sold and quite a few that > consumers purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's > easier to eat the cost of a battery here and there for customer > satisfaction. > > Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!eb0-TQjzz6nRMy4rCtXw02FQ-rdFqQkEoV9FD8Cn79i1Eh2YSk60QfTZwZ57rBALpeLbLxAVLAVWJy65qnelSuq5HSFQw1SO$ > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!eb0-TQjzz6nRMy4rCtXw02FQ-rdFqQkEoV9FD8Cn79i1Eh2YSk60QfTZwZ57rBALpeLbLxAVLAVWJy65qnelSuq5Hc01XR9V$ > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!eb0-TQjzz6nRMy4rCtXw02FQ-rdFqQkEoV9FD8Cn79i1Eh2YSk60QfTZwZ57rBALpeLbLxAVLAVWJy65qnelSuq5HWp0MUjN$ > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!eb0-TQjzz6nRMy4rCtXw02FQ-rdFqQkEoV9FD8Cn79i1Eh2YSk60QfTZwZ57rBALpeLbLxAVLAVWJy65qnelSuq5HfmF1NPV$ > > List rules & etiquette: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!eb0-TQjzz6nRMy4rCtXw02FQ-rdFqQkEoV9FD8Cn79i1Eh2YSk60QfTZwZ57rBALpeLbLxAVLAVWJy65qnelSuq5HeF5er0M$ > > Check out or update participant bios: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.members.re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!eb0-TQjzz6nRMy4rCtXw02FQ-rdFqQkEoV9FD8Cn79i1Eh2YSk60QfTZwZ57rBALpeLbLxAVLAVWJy65qnelSuq5HeNShbFH$ > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!eb0-TQjzz6nRMy4rCtXw02FQ-rdFqQkEoV9FD8Cn79i1Eh2YSk60QfTZwZ57rBALpeLbLxAVLAVWJy65qnelSuq5HSFQw1SO$ List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!eb0-TQjzz6nRMy4rCtXw02FQ-rdFqQkEoV9FD8Cn79i1Eh2YSk60QfTZwZ57rBALpeLbLxAVLAVWJy65qnelSuq5Hc01XR9V$ There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!eb0-TQjzz6nRMy4rCtXw02FQ-rdFqQkEoV9FD8Cn79i1Eh2YSk60QfTZwZ57rBALpeLbLxAVLAVWJy65qnelSuq5HWp0MUjN$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!eb0-TQjzz6nRMy4rCtXw02FQ-rdFqQkEoV9FD8Cn79i1Eh2YSk60QfTZwZ57rBALpeLbLxAVLAVWJy65qnelSuq5HfmF1NPV$ List rules & etiquette: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!eb0-TQjzz6nRMy4rCtXw02FQ-rdFqQkEoV9FD8Cn79i1Eh2YSk60QfTZwZ57rBALpeLbLxAVLAVWJy65qnelSuq5HeF5er0M$ Check out or update participant bios: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.members.re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!eb0-TQjzz6nRMy4rCtXw02FQ-rdFqQkEoV9FD8Cn79i1Eh2YSk60QfTZwZ57rBALpeLbLxAVLAVWJy65qnelSuq5HeNShbFH$ ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Thu Feb 13 08:59:11 2025 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 08:59:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: <90b9d2ca-b3db-5cc9-d556-8f39e76ae411@floridasolardesigngroup.com> References: <90b9d2ca-b3db-5cc9-d556-8f39e76ae411@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: <1664DADD-276F-44E6-9192-45C9A6C141BC@gmail.com> Hi Jason, It looks like the limit to Midnite PowerFlo is 257kwh. (16.076kwh/unit*16units in parallel). Best, Amos Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook > On Feb 12, 2025, at 5:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Thanks for the feedback, Lou. > > Yep, they all seem to be borrowing the "delay and deny" tactic from the insurance industry. It's an epidemic. Solar module manufacturers are doing this, too (I'm looking at you, REC and Silfab, who have given me the D&D treatment on two clear-cut warranty issues recently). I will continue to give Enphase kudos for having readily available and mostly competent customer service reps and a refreshingly liberal warranty process, especially if you are experienced and know how to work the customer service reps correctly to lead them to the right answer. > > Regarding the firmware issues on inverters and batteries, I have high hopes for Midnite's AIO and MNPowerflo, given their claims that firmware updates are tested, simultaneous, and seamless. This is a far cry from Sol-Ark's new policy of refusing to do firmware updates unless a technician is standing by on-site. It sounds like Midnite is listening, and the rest are content with accepting mediocrity and pushing issues onto installers. > > And don't get me started about HomeGrid's pathetic app and registration process... That little Gen 3 WiFi antenna gives you such high hopes, only to end in huge disappointment. The app doesn't even seem to work. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 1:08 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > The current trend of manufacturers resisting issuing RMAs is concerning. The amount of work they want us to do to confirm their problem is staggering (Looking at you SolarEdge). With that said, we only have 7 systems with HomeGrid batteries. We have had only one issue with them and it was firmware related. Unfortunately their firmware upgrade process is a total kludge so much so that like Jason, I just let them take over my laptop and let them handle it. It really made me appreciate Discover's software and firmware update process. We have a lot of Discover batteries out there and like the EG4s you can just shut off the bad battery and move on. In addition, if you have a battery module that is "dark start low" you can actually "charge" it (it's more like spilling electricity) from a good battery in the stack by turning off all the loads and charging sources (i.e. the inverter) and all the battery modules except one good one and the bad one. After you get the low one to a decent state of charge you can fire everything up and put a good balance charge on the entire stack. I have found their support to be great as well. They also just took their remote battery monitoring out of beta so now you can see battery info directly online. Which is nice. I am a big fan of having redundant monitoring so we can "trust but verify" the data being reported by the various components. I am still bummed they ended production of the 42-48-6650, the build quality was ridiculously good. I am little leary of their replacement, the 48-48-5120, but it seems to be doing fine in our installs. It has only been a year or so, so the jury is still out. But all the same features I described above apply. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 4:18 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet connectivity on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are both Gen 3. > > One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site with one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. > > The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to today. One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally that is low voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but customer service wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? That's not a solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens. > > Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for diagnostics at a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a Windows laptop and a battery charger is not ideal for sure. > > The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and we're sending you a new one, valued customer." > > No such luck. > > Jason > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the internet. Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will likely be imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the others and charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it may be an rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. Zero issues yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really struck a nerve as they only just recently got their internet monitoring functional.. having to go back to every site is a serious pain just to ensure what should be a basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to contact me offsite if you have any other questions I might be able to help with. > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right now. There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional stacks with communication cabling. > > The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What will happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then shut down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any stack. > > That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This is all very time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it off. The whole system goes haywire. > > Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack and charge it to 100% with an external charger. > > By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid system. > > I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery modules. > > Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my opinion. > > I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution to these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. > > Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Feb 13 09:46:08 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 14:46:08 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: <1664DADD-276F-44E6-9192-45C9A6C141BC@gmail.com> References: <90b9d2ca-b3db-5cc9-d556-8f39e76ae411@floridasolardesigngroup.com> <1664DADD-276F-44E6-9192-45C9A6C141BC@gmail.com> <1664DADD-276F-44E6-9192-45C9A6C141BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50d90a7f-45b9-0de7-7a05-71117294a4b6@floridasolardesigngroup.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5178 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Thu Feb 13 13:21:07 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 10:21:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] anyone have experience with AMPT DC-DC voltage converters Message-ID: Hi everyone! My financial partners and I are considering replacing all the old modules on a commercial agricultural customer (PGE territory), and this AMPT mfr technology looks promising. Has anyone in this group already tried it? Do they have a high/low failure rate? Do they work as advertised? https://www.ampt.com/applications/repower-pv-systems/ Thanks a lot -- David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vince at solarenergydesign.com Thu Feb 13 18:48:49 2025 From: vince at solarenergydesign.com (Vince McClellan) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 15:48:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave I haven't tried their micro inverter or ESS, but so far all the products that I've used from Tigo including the RSD switches that melted have been problematic. Personally, I wouldn't use their products. Vince McClellan President NABCEP PV Professional p: 541-485-8122 a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 e: vince at solarenergydesign.com w: SolarEnergyDesign.com CCB# 161672 If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. On Thu, Feb 6, 2025 at 10:53 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > I am curious if anyone has any experience with the Tigo inverter and > energy storage system. It looks very similar to the SMA setup, but maybe a > bit farther along in development. Even as just a simple string inverter, it > seems fairly reasonably priced. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Feb 13 19:05:54 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 19:05:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I do not have a lot of experience with Tigo equipment, almost all using their optimizers with CCAs and TAPs. The 2 things I can say is after getting my head wrapped around the setup and commissioning process (which is not the most intuitive process), I haven't had much trouble with them (again only have maybe 4 or 5 systems out there), and their tech support is generally very available and very knowledgeable and helpful, impressively so. Otherwise I can't speak much to their durability, reliability, or functionality. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:50 PM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Dave > I haven't tried their micro inverter or ESS, but so far all the products > that I've used from Tigo including the RSD switches that melted have been > problematic. Personally, I wouldn't use their products. > > > Vince McClellan > > President > > NABCEP PV Professional > > p: 541-485-8122 > > a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 > > e: vince at solarenergydesign.com > > w: SolarEnergyDesign.com > > CCB# 161672 > > > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please > delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of > this email is strictly prohibited. > > > > On Thu, Feb 6, 2025 at 10:53 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> I am curious if anyone has any experience with the Tigo inverter and >> energy storage system. It looks very similar to the SMA setup, but maybe a >> bit farther along in development. Even as just a simple string inverter, it >> seems fairly reasonably priced. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Thu Feb 13 21:05:06 2025 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 02:05:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from plenty of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects and blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted should not be allowed to remain on the market. David Buckner SES David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems 917-848-0215 718-389-1545 dbuckner at solaresystems.com www.solaresystems.com 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 The information contained in this email message, including any attached files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2025 7:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Howie Michaelson Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience CAUTION: External Email. I do not have a lot of experience with Tigo equipment, almost all using their optimizers with CCAs and TAPs. The 2 things I can say is after getting my head wrapped around the setup and commissioning process (which is not the most intuitive process), I haven't had much trouble with them (again only have maybe 4 or 5 systems out there), and their tech support is generally very available and very knowledgeable and helpful, impressively so. Otherwise I can't speak much to their durability, reliability, or functionality. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:50 PM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Dave I haven't tried their micro inverter or ESS, but so far all the products that I've used from Tigo including the RSD switches that melted have been problematic. Personally, I wouldn't use their products. Vince McClellan President NABCEP PV Professional p: 541-485-8122 a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 e: vince at solarenergydesign.com w: SolarEnergyDesign.com CCB# 161672 [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4wNFpfmapud31CzTAa2-q4a_jL8YsH9QScHfldYcIjPwCdbqYEkurnjBwJ40b4YsFEZdD_8h3mD7Y3X] If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. On Thu, Feb 6, 2025 at 10:53 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi All, I am curious if anyone has any experience with the Tigo inverter and energy storage system. It looks very similar to the SMA setup, but maybe a bit farther along in development. Even as just a simple string inverter, it seems fairly reasonably priced. Cheers, Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image157869.png Type: image/png Size: 40037 bytes Desc: image157869.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image016112.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: image016112.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image717129.png Type: image/png Size: 596 bytes Desc: image717129.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image947377.png Type: image/png Size: 499 bytes Desc: image947377.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image074443.png Type: image/png Size: 804 bytes Desc: image074443.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image421967.png Type: image/png Size: 608 bytes Desc: image421967.png URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Feb 14 06:04:18 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 06:04:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo Questions Message-ID: Hi all, Is anyone willing to share with me a picture or two of the Powerflo5 in a stack configuration? I'm curious about best practices for battery cable routing to busbars. Regarding the Powerflo16, the manual says it must be wall/floor mounted with some of the weight supported by the floor, and not supported by the wall alone. But there is a diagram showing vertical separation requirements between batteries. I'm confused... Can these be wall mounted or not? Thanks, Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Feb 14 07:28:26 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 07:28:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48V Charger Recommendation Message-ID: I'm looking for a suggestion for a good all-around charger for service purposes. I would consider a 240V or 120V option. The purpose is primarily to charge 5kWh lithium batteries. I would probably just pick up an EG4 Chargeverter, but it is back-ordered. Something more portable would be nice. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Fri Feb 14 07:35:16 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 07:35:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is no issue wall mounting as long as both mounting brackets are used and the wall can support the weight. People do not read manuals and then attach to wall that cannot support the weight. On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 6:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > Is anyone willing to share with me a picture or two of the Powerflo5 in a > stack configuration? I'm curious about best practices for battery cable > routing to busbars. > > Regarding the Powerflo16, the manual says it must be wall/floor mounted > with some of the weight supported by the floor, and not supported by the > wall alone. But there is a diagram showing vertical separation requirements > between batteries. I'm confused... Can these be wall mounted or not? > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Feb 14 07:42:12 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 06:42:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48V Charger Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason It would be hard to beat the Chargeverter because of 120V or 240V operation and programmable voltage and current output. Go ahead and order it and wait. Also get the extra 120V cord accessory. For some off grid customers, I also bring a Honda EU2200is to supply AC power. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Feb 14, 2025, at 6:29 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I'm looking for a suggestion for a good all-around charger for service purposes. I would consider a 240V or 120V option. The purpose is primarily to charge 5kWh lithium batteries. > > I would probably just pick up an EG4 Chargeverter, but it is back-ordered. Something more portable would be nice. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri Feb 14 08:03:02 2025 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 08:03:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003f01db7ee0$c8bac8e0$5a305aa0$@mindspring.com> Gentlemen Started out with the Tigo products years ago and yes, what a pain. Ap Smart is so much easier ( not that hanging a device on a panel then mounting it on a 6/12 roof is easy ) it works, fairly simple to install, just bring your best reading glasses to see the wire holes for the power supply. Peter Giroux American solar From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of David Buckner via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2025 9:05 PM To: Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches Cc: David Buckner Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from plenty of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects and blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted should not be allowed to remain on the market. David Buckner SES David Buckner​​​​ President Solar Energy Systems 917-848-0215 718-389-1545 dbuckner at solaresystems.com www.solaresystems.com 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 The information contained in this email message, including any attached files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank you. _____ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2025 7:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Howie Michaelson Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience CAUTION: External Email. I do not have a lot of experience with Tigo equipment, almost all using their optimizers with CCAs and TAPs. The 2 things I can say is after getting my head wrapped around the setup and commissioning process (which is not the most intuitive process), I haven't had much trouble with them (again only have maybe 4 or 5 systems out there), and their tech support is generally very available and very knowledgeable and helpful, impressively so. Otherwise I can't speak much to their durability, reliability, or functionality. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:50 PM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Dave I haven't tried their micro inverter or ESS, but so far all the products that I've used from Tigo including the RSD switches that melted have been problematic. Personally, I wouldn't use their products. Vince McClellan President NABCEP PV Professional p: 541-485-8122 a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 e: vince at solarenergydesign.com w: SolarEnergyDesign.com CCB# 161672 If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. On Thu, Feb 6, 2025 at 10:53 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi All, I am curious if anyone has any experience with the Tigo inverter and energy storage system. It looks very similar to the SMA setup, but maybe a bit farther along in development. Even as just a simple string inverter, it seems fairly reasonably priced. Cheers, Dave -- Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD0000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 40037 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 596 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 499 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.png Type: image/png Size: 804 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 608 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Feb 14 09:00:40 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 09:00:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48V Charger Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, The NOCO GX4820 is a great charger. I've used it to dark-start Fortress and Blue Planet 48v cabinets, instead of dinky trickle chargers taking hours to do the same job. Priced at $500 a year and a half ago. its rated @ 110 -240 vac input. The one I bought came only with a 120v cord. On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 7:29 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm looking for a suggestion for a good all-around charger for service > purposes. I would consider a 240V or 120V option. The purpose is primarily > to charge 5kWh lithium batteries. > > I would probably just pick up an EG4 Chargeverter, but it is back-ordered. > Something more portable would be nice. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Feb 14 09:26:28 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 07:26:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48V Charger Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Jason, I have had success with the cheap, variable power supplies on Amazon. Its nice to be able to adjust output voltage from 0-60V for the various battery bank voltages we encounter. You have to build your own cord but they are small and easy to have on the truck. They are slow but typically, this isn't a big deal if you are just trying to get it above the BMS cut out voltage. There is very little actual charge from <40V to 48V, then you can engage the power system to do the heavy charging. I like to be able to apply charge to the cell directly if there is one that is problematic if there is access to the cell level. Just remember that you probably want a power supply that doesn't require a battery to wake up. It's hard to have all of the tools, dongles, apps etc that we need on a service call these days! On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 7:01 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > > The NOCO GX4820 is a great charger. I've used it to dark-start Fortress > and Blue Planet 48v cabinets, instead of dinky trickle chargers taking > hours to do the same job. > Priced at $500 a year and a half ago. its rated @ 110 -240 vac input. The > one I bought came only with a 120v cord. > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 7:29 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I'm looking for a suggestion for a good all-around charger for service >> purposes. I would consider a 240V or 120V option. The purpose is primarily >> to charge 5kWh lithium batteries. >> >> I would probably just pick up an EG4 Chargeverter, but it is >> back-ordered. Something more portable would be nice. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Feb 14 10:05:38 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 08:05:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48V Charger Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: battery-charger-m100-1.2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18655 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Feb 14 10:45:33 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 07:45:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48V Charger Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I bought a LiTime 18A charger, which appears to be similar to other inexpensive chargers. It charges up to a certain voltage, about 54 to 55 volts, not the 58.4 volts it says (which is good) and then turns off. It does not turn on again at any voltage I've been down to. Maybe at some voltage below 52 it might I don't know. It does not turn on again unless I disconnect and reconnect the AC. Maybe the other similar chargers do this also, maybe not. It will charge without DC voltage connected. I also bought the Nice-Power 60V/10A power supply from Current Connected and it works just as expected. On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 7:07 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I bought this one for a client. > > Works fine > I removed the end and put clamps on it. $95 > > [image: battery-charger-m100-1.2.jpg] > > VEVOR 48 Volt Golf Cart Battery Charger, 15 AMP, Smart Battery Charger > with RXV Plug, Compatible with Lead-Acid AGM/GEL/EFB MF Flooded NMC LiFePO4 > Batteries for EZGO TXT, IP67 Waterproof ETL Certified > > vevor.com > > > > > > On Feb 14, 2025, at 7:27 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hello Jason, > > I have had success with the cheap, variable power supplies on Amazon. Its > nice to be able to adjust output voltage from 0-60V for the > various battery bank voltages we encounter. You have to build your own > cord but they are small and easy to have on the truck. They are slow but > typically, this isn't a big deal if you are just trying to get it above the > BMS cut out voltage. There is very little actual charge from <40V to 48V, > then you can engage the power system to do the heavy charging. I like to > be able to apply charge to the cell directly if there is one that is > problematic if there is access to the cell level. > > Just remember that you probably want a power supply that doesn't require a > battery to wake up. It's hard to have all of the tools, dongles, apps etc > that we need on a service call these days! > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 7:01 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, >> >> The NOCO GX4820 is a great charger. I've used it to dark-start Fortress >> and Blue Planet 48v cabinets, instead of dinky trickle chargers taking >> hours to do the same job. >> Priced at $500 a year and a half ago. its rated @ 110 -240 vac input. The >> one I bought came only with a 120v cord. >> >> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 7:29 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I'm looking for a suggestion for a good all-around charger for service >>> purposes. I would consider a 240V or 120V option. The purpose is primarily >>> to charge 5kWh lithium batteries. >>> >>> I would probably just pick up an EG4 Chargeverter, but it is >>> back-ordered. Something more portable would be nice. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: battery-charger-m100-1.2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18655 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: LiTime charger.png Type: image/png Size: 116373 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Feb 14 12:28:19 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 09:28:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: <50d90a7f-45b9-0de7-7a05-71117294a4b6@floridasolardesigngroup.com> References: <90b9d2ca-b3db-5cc9-d556-8f39e76ae411@floridasolardesigngroup.com> <1664DADD-276F-44E6-9192-45C9A6C141BC@gmail.com> <50d90a7f-45b9-0de7-7a05-71117294a4b6@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: I think I have seen or heard of issues and failures with all of the Li batteries at this point. Even my favorite, Discover. So then, what is most important to me is good tech support and customer service. Discover has been awesome. Midnite has been great too. Discover is releasing a 16kwhr battery very soon. Most of my OG systems for several years have been Schneider/Discover. With Schneider out of the picture, I started using more Victron equipment with Discover batteries. Now there's the Midnite AIO and Powerlo16s. I've done several GTBB systems and like that combo for that application. Bill's post reminded me of the Rosie/Barcelona. I'm wondering what the pro's and cons are between the AIO and R/B for off-grid. Not many choices left these days On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:47 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I didn't initially realize they have the Powerflo16 outdoor wallmount battery. > I see you can get that capacity with it now. It's disappointing that the > stackable 5kWh Powerflo5 is limited to 80kWh (also 16 units). Most of my > clients build dedicated battery/inverter buildings and need massive > capacities to run their properties. I am trying to wrap my head around how > a multi-inverter Midnite AIO might be able to take advantage of multiple > un-paralleled battery banks to get around this limitation. I'm waiting on > a call from a Midnite rep to discuss this and other questions I have. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 9:00 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> It looks like the limit to Midnite PowerFlo is 257kwh. >> (16.076kwh/unit*16units in parallel). >> >> Best, >> Amos >> >> >> Amos Post >> Integrity Energy >> W 802.763.7023 >> C 802.291.2188 >> ienergyVT.com >> Facebook >> >> On Feb 12, 2025, at 5:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Thanks for the feedback, Lou. >> >> Yep, they all seem to be borrowing the "delay and deny" tactic from the >> insurance industry. It's an epidemic. Solar module manufacturers are doing >> this, too (I'm looking at you, REC and Silfab, who have given me the D&D >> treatment on two clear-cut warranty issues recently). I will continue to >> give Enphase kudos for having readily available and mostly competent >> customer service reps and a refreshingly liberal warranty process, >> especially if you are experienced and know how to work the customer service >> reps correctly to lead them to the right answer. >> >> Regarding the firmware issues on inverters and batteries, I have high >> hopes for Midnite's AIO and MNPowerflo, given their claims that firmware >> updates are tested, simultaneous, and seamless. This is a far cry from >> Sol-Ark's new policy of refusing to do firmware updates unless a technician >> is standing by on-site. It sounds like Midnite is listening, and the rest >> are content with accepting mediocrity and pushing issues onto installers. >> >> And don't get me started about HomeGrid's pathetic app and registration >> process... That little Gen 3 WiFi antenna gives you such high hopes, only >> to end in huge disappointment. The app doesn't even seem to work. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 1:08 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> The current trend of manufacturers resisting issuing RMAs is concerning. >>> The amount of work they want us to do to confirm their problem is >>> staggering (Looking at you SolarEdge). With that said, we only have 7 >>> systems with HomeGrid batteries. We have had only one issue with them and >>> it was firmware related. Unfortunately their firmware upgrade process is a >>> total kludge so much so that like Jason, I just let them take over my >>> laptop and let them handle it. It really made me appreciate Discover's >>> software and firmware update process. We have a lot of Discover batteries >>> out there and like the EG4s you can just shut off the bad battery and move >>> on. In addition, if you have a battery module that is "dark start low" you >>> can actually "charge" it (it's more like spilling electricity) from a good >>> battery in the stack by turning off all the loads and charging sources >>> (i.e. the inverter) and all the battery modules except one good one and the >>> bad one. After you get the low one to a decent state of charge you can fire >>> everything up and put a good balance charge on the entire stack. I have >>> found their support to be great as well. They also just took their remote >>> battery monitoring out of beta so now you can see battery info directly >>> online. Which is nice. I am a big fan of having redundant monitoring so we >>> can "trust but verify" the data being reported by the various components. I >>> am still bummed they ended production of the 42-48-6650, the build quality >>> was ridiculously good. I am little leary of their replacement, >>> the 48-48-5120, but it seems to be doing fine in our installs. It has only >>> been a year or so, so the jury is still out. But all the same features I >>> described above apply. >>> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> Lou Russo >>> Owner >>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >>> Office - 808 345 6762 >>> Spree Solar Systems LLC >>> CT-34322 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 4:18 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet >>>> connectivity on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are >>>> both Gen 3. >>>> >>>> One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site >>>> with one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even >>>> recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. >>>> >>>> The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to >>>> today. One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally >>>> that is low voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but >>>> customer service wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? >>>> That's not a solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens. >>>> >>>> Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for >>>> diagnostics at a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a >>>> Windows laptop and a battery charger is not ideal for sure. >>>> >>>> The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today >>>> remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which >>>> isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and >>>> we're sending you a new one, valued customer." >>>> >>>> No such luck. >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the >>>>> internet. Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will >>>>> likely be imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the >>>>> others and charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it >>>>> may be an rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. >>>>> Zero issues yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really struck >>>>> a nerve as they only just recently got their internet monitoring >>>>> functional.. having to go back to every site is a serious pain just to >>>>> ensure what should be a basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to >>>>> contact me offsite if you have any other questions I might be able to help >>>>> with. >>>>> Tyrone Houck >>>>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>>>> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >>>>> 541-787-1366 >>>>> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right >>>>>> now. There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For >>>>>> those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single >>>>>> BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a >>>>>> circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication >>>>>> number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional >>>>>> stacks with communication cabling. >>>>>> >>>>>> The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What >>>>>> will happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then >>>>>> shut down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system >>>>>> shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any >>>>>> stack. >>>>>> >>>>>> That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just >>>>>> shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change >>>>>> all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to >>>>>> re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This >>>>>> is all very time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut >>>>>> down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it >>>>>> off. The whole system goes haywire. >>>>>> >>>>>> Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users >>>>>> need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer >>>>>> service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the >>>>>> stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is >>>>>> critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one >>>>>> of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack >>>>>> and charge it to 100% with an external charger. >>>>>> >>>>>> By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can >>>>>> almost pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for >>>>>> this not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to >>>>>> me that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it >>>>>> happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid >>>>>> system. >>>>>> >>>>>> I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this >>>>>> respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn >>>>>> off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a >>>>>> fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery >>>>>> modules. >>>>>> >>>>>> Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic >>>>>> RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at >>>>>> almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the >>>>>> case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't >>>>>> have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. >>>>>> Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my >>>>>> opinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution >>>>>> to these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good >>>>>> success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers >>>>>> purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the >>>>>> cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5178 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Feb 14 12:44:36 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 12:44:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <998d3f72-0511-4fe5-8eee-3010eaf9fe8d@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Feb 14 13:25:46 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:25:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: <998d3f72-0511-4fe5-8eee-3010eaf9fe8d@email.android.com> References: <998d3f72-0511-4fe5-8eee-3010eaf9fe8d@email.android.com> Message-ID: They discontinued the Conext line. Mo more XWs On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 9:45 AM Glenn via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Whoa, what did I miss? > How is Schneider out of the picture? > > -Glenn > > On Feb 14, 2025 12:28, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I think I have seen or heard of issues and failures with all of the Li > batteries at this point. Even my favorite, Discover. So then, what is most > important to me is good tech support and customer service. Discover has > been awesome. Midnite has been great too. Discover is releasing a > 16kwhr battery very soon. Most of my OG systems for several years have been > Schneider/Discover. With Schneider out of the picture, I started using more > Victron equipment with Discover batteries. Now there's the Midnite AIO and > Powerlo16s. I've done several GTBB systems and like that combo for that > application. Bill's post reminded me of the Rosie/Barcelona. I'm wondering > what the pro's and cons are between the AIO and R/B for off-grid. Not many > choices left these days > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:47 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I didn't initially realize they have the Powerflo16 outdoor > wallmount battery. I see you can get that capacity with it now. It's > disappointing that the stackable 5kWh Powerflo5 is limited to 80kWh (also > 16 units). Most of my clients build dedicated battery/inverter buildings > and need massive capacities to run their properties. I am trying to wrap my > head around how a multi-inverter Midnite AIO might be able to take > advantage of multiple un-paralleled battery banks to get around this > limitation. I'm waiting on a call from a Midnite rep to discuss this and > other questions I have. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 9:00 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > It looks like the limit to Midnite PowerFlo is 257kwh. > (16.076kwh/unit*16units in parallel). > > Best, > Amos > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > > On Feb 12, 2025, at 5:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Thanks for the feedback, Lou. > > Yep, they all seem to be borrowing the "delay and deny" tactic from the > insurance industry. It's an epidemic. Solar module manufacturers are doing > this, too (I'm looking at you, REC and Silfab, who have given me the D&D > treatment on two clear-cut warranty issues recently). I will continue to > give Enphase kudos for having readily available and mostly competent > customer service reps and a refreshingly liberal warranty process, > especially if you are experienced and know how to work the customer service > reps correctly to lead them to the right answer. > > Regarding the firmware issues on inverters and batteries, I have high > hopes for Midnite's AIO and MNPowerflo, given their claims that firmware > updates are tested, simultaneous, and seamless. This is a far cry from > Sol-Ark's new policy of refusing to do firmware updates unless a technician > is standing by on-site. It sounds like Midnite is listening, and the rest > are content with accepting mediocrity and pushing issues onto installers. > > And don't get me started about HomeGrid's pathetic app and registration > process... That little Gen 3 WiFi antenna gives you such high hopes, only > to end in huge disappointment. The app doesn't even seem to work. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 1:08 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > The current trend of manufacturers resisting issuing RMAs is concerning. > The amount of work they want us to do to confirm their problem is > staggering (Looking at you SolarEdge). With that said, we only have 7 > systems with HomeGrid batteries. We have had only one issue with them and > it was firmware related. Unfortunately their firmware upgrade process is a > total kludge so much so that like Jason, I just let them take over my > laptop and let them handle it. It really made me appreciate Discover's > software and firmware update process. We have a lot of Discover batteries > out there and like the EG4s you can just shut off the bad battery and move > on. In addition, if you have a battery module that is "dark start low" you > can actually "charge" it (it's more like spilling electricity) from a good > battery in the stack by turning off all the loads and charging sources > (i.e. the inverter) and all the battery modules except one good one and the > bad one. After you get the low one to a decent state of charge you can fire > everything up and put a good balance charge on the entire stack. I have > found their support to be great as well. They also just took their remote > battery monitoring out of beta so now you can see battery info directly > online. Which is nice. I am a big fan of having redundant monitoring so we > can "trust but verify" the data being reported by the various components. I > am still bummed they ended production of the 42-48-6650, the build quality > was ridiculously good. I am little leary of their replacement, > the 48-48-5120, but it seems to be doing fine in our installs. It has only > been a year or so, so the jury is still out. But all the same features I > described above apply. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 4:18 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet > connectivity on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are > both Gen 3. > > One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site with > one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even > recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. > > The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to today. > One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally that is > low voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but customer > service wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? That's not > a solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens. > > Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for diagnostics > at a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a Windows laptop > and a battery charger is not ideal for sure. > > The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today > remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which > isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and > we're sending you a new one, valued customer." > > No such luck. > > Jason > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the internet. > Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will likely be > imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the others and > charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it may be an > rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. Zero issues > yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really struck a nerve as > they only just recently got their internet monitoring functional.. having > to go back to every site is a serious pain just to ensure what should be a > basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to contact me offsite if you > have any other questions I might be able to help with. > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right now. > There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For > those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single > BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a > circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication > number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional > stacks with communication cabling. > > The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What will > happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then shut > down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system > shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any > stack. > > That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just shut > off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change all > of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to re-recognize > the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This is all very > time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut down. Even if a > battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it off. The whole > system goes haywire. > > Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users need > not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer service > will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the stock, > but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is critical. > One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one of 15 > cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack and > charge it to 100% with an external charger. > > By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost pay > for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this not to > happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me that it > didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it happened. That > isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid system. > > I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this > respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn > off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a > fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery > modules. > > Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic RMA. > They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at almost > twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the case of > the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't have) > directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. Totally > unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my opinion. > > I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution to > these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good > success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers > purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the > cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. > > Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Fri Feb 14 13:26:13 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 10:26:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings David, Can you elaborate on which products of theirs failed catastrophically? Their TS4-F single and double units by chance? My experience has been an annoying occurrence where certain installed units lock up requring replacement after the array is shut down for O&M tasks but nothing that starts burning as you mentioned. I've still got a reasonable amount of them in my inventory but would rather not deploy if they're "burning" in some way. Thanks for sharing your experience, Nick *We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from plenty of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects and blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted should not be allowed to remain on the market.* *David Buckner* *SES* David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems 917-848-0215 718-389-1545 dbuckner at solaresystems.com www.solaresystems.com 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:06 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from plenty > of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects and > blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power > line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted > should not be allowed to remain on the market. > > David Buckner > SES > > David Buckner​​​​ > > President > > Solar Energy Systems > > 917-848-0215 > > 718-389-1545 > > dbuckner at solaresystems.com > > www.solaresystems.com > > > 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 > > The information contained in this email message, including any attached > files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is > intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the > intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal > information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, > the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby > notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward > this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured > or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, > destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender > therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the > contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail > transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the > sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank > you. > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2025 7:05 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Howie Michaelson > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience > > CAUTION: External Email. > I do not have a lot of experience with Tigo equipment, almost all using > their optimizers with CCAs and TAPs. The 2 things I can say is after > getting my head wrapped around the setup and commissioning process (which > is not the most intuitive process), I haven't had much trouble with them > (again only have maybe 4 or 5 systems out there), and their tech support is > generally very available and very knowledgeable and helpful, impressively > so. Otherwise I can't speak much to their durability, reliability, or > functionality. > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:50 PM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Dave > I haven't tried their micro inverter or ESS, but so far all the products > that I've used from Tigo including the RSD switches that melted have been > problematic. Personally, I wouldn't use their products. > > > Vince McClellan > > President > > NABCEP PV Professional > > p: 541-485-8122 > > a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 > > e: vince at solarenergydesign.com > > w: SolarEnergyDesign.com > > CCB# 161672 > > > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please > delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of > this email is strictly prohibited. > > > > On Thu, Feb 6, 2025 at 10:53 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > I am curious if anyone has any experience with the Tigo inverter and > energy storage system. It looks very similar to the SMA setup, but maybe a > bit farther along in development. Even as just a simple string inverter, it > seems fairly reasonably priced. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image157869.png Type: image/png Size: 40037 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image016112.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image717129.png Type: image/png Size: 596 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image074443.png Type: image/png Size: 804 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image947377.png Type: image/png Size: 499 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image016112.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Feb 14 13:55:39 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 13:55:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: <998d3f72-0511-4fe5-8eee-3010eaf9fe8d@email.android.com> Message-ID: This is the first time I'm hearing of that. The product line is still listed on their website. On Fri, Feb 14, 2025, 1:28 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > They discontinued the Conext line. Mo more XWs > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 9:45 AM Glenn via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Whoa, what did I miss? >> How is Schneider out of the picture? >> >> -Glenn >> >> On Feb 14, 2025 12:28, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> I think I have seen or heard of issues and failures with all of the Li >> batteries at this point. Even my favorite, Discover. So then, what is most >> important to me is good tech support and customer service. Discover has >> been awesome. Midnite has been great too. Discover is releasing a >> 16kwhr battery very soon. Most of my OG systems for several years have been >> Schneider/Discover. With Schneider out of the picture, I started using more >> Victron equipment with Discover batteries. Now there's the Midnite AIO and >> Powerlo16s. I've done several GTBB systems and like that combo for that >> application. Bill's post reminded me of the Rosie/Barcelona. I'm wondering >> what the pro's and cons are between the AIO and R/B for off-grid. Not many >> choices left these days >> >> On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:47 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> I didn't initially realize they have the Powerflo16 outdoor >> wallmount battery. I see you can get that capacity with it now. It's >> disappointing that the stackable 5kWh Powerflo5 is limited to 80kWh (also >> 16 units). Most of my clients build dedicated battery/inverter buildings >> and need massive capacities to run their properties. I am trying to wrap my >> head around how a multi-inverter Midnite AIO might be able to take >> advantage of multiple un-paralleled battery banks to get around this >> limitation. I'm waiting on a call from a Midnite rep to discuss this and >> other questions I have. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 9:00 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Jason, >> >> It looks like the limit to Midnite PowerFlo is 257kwh. >> (16.076kwh/unit*16units in parallel). >> >> Best, >> Amos >> >> >> Amos Post >> Integrity Energy >> W 802.763.7023 >> C 802.291.2188 >> ienergyVT.com >> Facebook >> >> On Feb 12, 2025, at 5:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Thanks for the feedback, Lou. >> >> Yep, they all seem to be borrowing the "delay and deny" tactic from the >> insurance industry. It's an epidemic. Solar module manufacturers are doing >> this, too (I'm looking at you, REC and Silfab, who have given me the D&D >> treatment on two clear-cut warranty issues recently). I will continue to >> give Enphase kudos for having readily available and mostly competent >> customer service reps and a refreshingly liberal warranty process, >> especially if you are experienced and know how to work the customer service >> reps correctly to lead them to the right answer. >> >> Regarding the firmware issues on inverters and batteries, I have high >> hopes for Midnite's AIO and MNPowerflo, given their claims that firmware >> updates are tested, simultaneous, and seamless. This is a far cry from >> Sol-Ark's new policy of refusing to do firmware updates unless a technician >> is standing by on-site. It sounds like Midnite is listening, and the rest >> are content with accepting mediocrity and pushing issues onto installers. >> >> And don't get me started about HomeGrid's pathetic app and registration >> process... That little Gen 3 WiFi antenna gives you such high hopes, only >> to end in huge disappointment. The app doesn't even seem to work. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 1:08 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> The current trend of manufacturers resisting issuing RMAs is concerning. >> The amount of work they want us to do to confirm their problem is >> staggering (Looking at you SolarEdge). With that said, we only have 7 >> systems with HomeGrid batteries. We have had only one issue with them and >> it was firmware related. Unfortunately their firmware upgrade process is a >> total kludge so much so that like Jason, I just let them take over my >> laptop and let them handle it. It really made me appreciate Discover's >> software and firmware update process. We have a lot of Discover batteries >> out there and like the EG4s you can just shut off the bad battery and move >> on. In addition, if you have a battery module that is "dark start low" you >> can actually "charge" it (it's more like spilling electricity) from a good >> battery in the stack by turning off all the loads and charging sources >> (i.e. the inverter) and all the battery modules except one good one and the >> bad one. After you get the low one to a decent state of charge you can fire >> everything up and put a good balance charge on the entire stack. I have >> found their support to be great as well. They also just took their remote >> battery monitoring out of beta so now you can see battery info directly >> online. Which is nice. I am a big fan of having redundant monitoring so we >> can "trust but verify" the data being reported by the various components. I >> am still bummed they ended production of the 42-48-6650, the build quality >> was ridiculously good. I am little leary of their replacement, >> the 48-48-5120, but it seems to be doing fine in our installs. It has only >> been a year or so, so the jury is still out. But all the same features I >> described above apply. >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> Owner >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> Office - 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 4:18 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet >> connectivity on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are >> both Gen 3. >> >> One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site with >> one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even >> recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. >> >> The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to >> today. One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally >> that is low voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but >> customer service wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? >> That's not a solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens. >> >> Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for diagnostics >> at a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a Windows laptop >> and a battery charger is not ideal for sure. >> >> The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today >> remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which >> isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and >> we're sending you a new one, valued customer." >> >> No such luck. >> >> Jason >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the internet. >> Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will likely be >> imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the others and >> charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it may be an >> rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. Zero issues >> yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really struck a nerve as >> they only just recently got their internet monitoring functional.. having >> to go back to every site is a serious pain just to ensure what should be a >> basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to contact me offsite if you >> have any other questions I might be able to help with. >> Tyrone Houck >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >> 541-787-1366 >> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >> >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right now. >> There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For >> those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single >> BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a >> circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication >> number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional >> stacks with communication cabling. >> >> The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What will >> happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then shut >> down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system >> shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any >> stack. >> >> That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just shut >> off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change all >> of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to re-recognize >> the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This is all very >> time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut down. Even if a >> battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it off. The whole >> system goes haywire. >> >> Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users need >> not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer service >> will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the stock, >> but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is critical. >> One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one of 15 >> cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack and >> charge it to 100% with an external charger. >> >> By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost >> pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this >> not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me >> that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it >> happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid >> system. >> >> I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this >> respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn >> off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a >> fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery >> modules. >> >> Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic RMA. >> They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at almost >> twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the case of >> the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't have) >> directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. Totally >> unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my opinion. >> >> I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution to >> these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good >> success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers >> purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the >> cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. >> >> Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> Morningstar Electric Inc >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> CSLB 1116835 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Fri Feb 14 14:09:52 2025 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 19:09:52 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Nick, Yes, it's the TS4-F units. We have made every effort to install to the specs provided (as the goal post and solutions keep changing) but have still seen RSD's start to swell and/or burn over time. We've separated DC wires and home runs and stayed within the home run complete circuit distance that is recommended. We've used the "Pure Signal" transmitter solution that syncs up the signaling from multiple inverters in an effort to avoid the "chatter" that starts when the RSD is failing (see video below about that). It's all field R&D at our expense in my opinion. Sadly, I'd be happy if the RSD failed and didn't work but it starts to work in overdrive until it burns up and causes an arc. These photos below are from a site where we got lucky and the fire didn't spread. Below the photos is a link to a video of Tigo and Mayfield discussing the crosstalk issue. [cid:9ae8ea6c-2552-4bdf-9aba-a98c427945f6] [cid:80f9287c-351a-49e1-be0c-813d1db30990] [cid:aa75bf52-b52c-4a13-a68b-8eb74fdace48] [cid:8ef5ba50-9418-444b-aa7a-8cc380f2a056] Here is a video discussion of the cross-talk and signal corruption issues that are the supposed cause of the unit's failure's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_1_0Ofuhao [cid:803d05e7-1a9c-41bb-96f9-d4945e0aa259] Mayfield Renewables and Tigo Energy - Crosstalk Workshop A deep dive into how to design PLC (Power-Line Communication) based solar rapid shutdown systems in order to minimize cross-talk and other signal integrity issues. This is a technical presentation meant to assist with the design of large scale solar rooftop arrays that use PLC-based rapid shutdown systems, which are used to meet the rapid ... www.youtube.com David Buckner President 917-848-0215 718-389-1545 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, February 14, 2025 1:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Nick Lucchese Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience CAUTION: External Email. Greetings David, Can you elaborate on which products of theirs failed catastrophically? Their TS4-F single and double units by chance? My experience has been an annoying occurrence where certain installed units lock up requring replacement after the array is shut down for O&M tasks but nothing that starts burning as you mentioned. I've still got a reasonable amount of them in my inventory but would rather not deploy if they're "burning" in some way. Thanks for sharing your experience, Nick We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from plenty of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects and blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted should not be allowed to remain on the market. David Buckner SES [cid:image016112.png at D337C74E.F6203078] David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems [cid:image947377.png at E2B68243.693F85F4] 917-848-0215 [cid:image421967.png at 52E9789E.3B23964E] 718-389-1545 [cid:image157869.png at 03D0D165.9470F893] dbuckner at solaresystems.com [cid:image074443.png at FFA76ECB.E6DCFFD8] www.solaresystems.com [cid:image717129.png at 84F30817.290E5793] 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:06 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches > wrote: We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from plenty of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects and blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted should not be allowed to remain on the market. David Buckner SES [cid:ii_19505b01df0f41db85e1] David Buckner​​​​ President Solar Energy Systems [cid:ii_19505b01df0cbaadff32] 917-848-0215 [cid:ii_19505b01df0e3a5a1d13] 718-389-1545 [cid:ii_19505b01df0fb3e53ad4] dbuckner at solaresystems.com [cid:ii_19505b01df01962735c5] www.solaresystems.com [cid:ii_19505b01df0d9afbdbd6] 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 The information contained in this email message, including any attached files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2025 7:05 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Howie Michaelson > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience CAUTION: External Email. I do not have a lot of experience with Tigo equipment, almost all using their optimizers with CCAs and TAPs. The 2 things I can say is after getting my head wrapped around the setup and commissioning process (which is not the most intuitive process), I haven't had much trouble with them (again only have maybe 4 or 5 systems out there), and their tech support is generally very available and very knowledgeable and helpful, impressively so. Otherwise I can't speak much to their durability, reliability, or functionality. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:50 PM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Dave I haven't tried their micro inverter or ESS, but so far all the products that I've used from Tigo including the RSD switches that melted have been problematic. Personally, I wouldn't use their products. Vince McClellan President NABCEP PV Professional p: 541-485-8122 a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 e: vince at solarenergydesign.com w: SolarEnergyDesign.com CCB# 161672 [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4wNFpfmapud31CzTAa2-q4a_jL8YsH9QScHfldYcIjPwCdbqYEkurnjBwJ40b4YsFEZdD_8h3mD7Y3X] If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. On Thu, Feb 6, 2025 at 10:53 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi All, I am curious if anyone has any experience with the Tigo inverter and energy storage system. It looks very similar to the SMA setup, but maybe a bit farther along in development. Even as just a simple string inverter, it seems fairly reasonably priced. Cheers, Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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Name: image386447.png Type: image/png Size: 608 bytes Desc: image386447.png URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Fri Feb 14 15:46:18 2025 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 12:46:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: <998d3f72-0511-4fe5-8eee-3010eaf9fe8d@email.android.com> Message-ID: <534d9f9c-e9e9-41bd-bb7b-9859e111f1bd@coveoregon.com> Schneider's website is still there but it shows the Conext products as being discontinued. Word is that a couple well know online retail companies bought up almost all the inventory  except for some number of items that Schneider held for warranty supply. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 2/14/2025 10:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > This is the first time I'm hearing of that. The product line is still > listed on their website. > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025, 1:28 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > They discontinued the Conext line. Mo more XWs > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 9:45 AM Glenn via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Whoa, what did I miss? > How is Schneider out of the picture? > > -Glenn > > On Feb 14, 2025 12:28, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I think I have seen or heard of issues and failures with > all of the Li batteries at this point. Even my favorite, > Discover. So then, what is most important to me is good > tech support and customer service. Discover has been > awesome. Midnite has been great too. Discover is releasing > a 16kwhr battery very soon. Most of my OG systems for > several years have been Schneider/Discover. With Schneider > out of the picture, I started using more Victron equipment > with Discover batteries. Now there's the Midnite AIO and > Powerlo16s. I've done several GTBB systems and like that > combo for that application. Bill's post reminded me of the > Rosie/Barcelona. I'm wondering what the pro's and cons are > between the AIO and R/B for off-grid. Not many choices > left these days > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:47 AM Jason Szumlanski via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > I didn't initially realize they have the Powerflo16 > outdoor wallmount battery. I see you can get that > capacity with it now. It's disappointing that the > stackable 5kWh Powerflo5 is limited to 80kWh (also 16 > units). Most of my clients build dedicated > battery/inverter buildings and need massive capacities > to run their properties. I am trying to wrap my head > around how a multi-inverter Midnite AIO might be able > to take advantage of multiple un-paralleled battery > banks to get around this limitation. I'm waiting on a > call from a Midnite rep to discuss this and other > questions I have. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 9:00 AM Amos Post via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > It looks like the limit to Midnite PowerFlo is > 257kwh.  (16.076kwh/unit*16units in parallel). > > Best, > Amos > > >      Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 >  C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > > > On Feb 12, 2025, at 5:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski > via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Thanks for the feedback, Lou. > > Yep, they all seem to be borrowing the "delay > and deny" tactic from the insurance industry. > It's an epidemic. Solar module manufacturers > are doing this, too (I'm looking at you, REC > and Silfab, who have given me the D&D > treatment on two clear-cut warranty issues > recently). I will continue to give Enphase > kudos for having readily available and mostly > competent customer service reps and a > refreshingly liberal warranty process, > especially if you are experienced and know how > to work the customer service reps correctly to > lead them to the right answer. > > Regarding the firmware issues on inverters > and batteries, I have high hopes for Midnite's > AIO and MNPowerflo, given their claims that > firmware updates are tested, simultaneous, and > seamless. This is a far cry from Sol-Ark's new > policy of refusing to do firmware updates > unless a technician is standing by on-site. It > sounds like Midnite is listening, and the rest > are content with accepting mediocrity and > pushing issues onto installers. > > And don't get me started about HomeGrid's > pathetic app and registration process... That > little Gen 3 WiFi antenna gives you such high > hopes, only to end in huge disappointment. The > app doesn't even seem to work. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar > Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 1:08 AM Lou Russo via > RE-wrenches > wrote: > > The current trend of manufacturers > resisting issuing RMAs is concerning. The > amount of work they want us to do to > confirm their problem is staggering > (Looking at you SolarEdge). With that > said, we only have 7 systems with HomeGrid > batteries. We have had only one issue with > them and it was firmware related. > Unfortunately their firmware upgrade > process is a total kludge so much so that > like Jason, I  just let them take over my > laptop and let them handle it. It really > made me appreciate Discover's software and > firmware update process. We have a lot of > Discover batteries out there and like > the EG4s you can just shut off the bad > battery and move on. In addition, if you > have a battery module that is "dark start > low" you can actually "charge" it (it's > more like spilling electricity) from a > good battery in the stack by turning off > all the loads and charging sources (i.e. > the inverter) and all the battery modules > except one good one and the bad one. After > you get the low one to a decent state of > charge you can fire everything up and > put a good balance charge on the entire > stack. I have found their support to be > great as well. They also just took > their remote battery monitoring out of > beta so now you can see battery info > directly online. Which is nice. I am a big > fan of having redundant monitoring so we > can "trust but verify" the data being > reported by the various components. I am > still bummed they ended production of > the 42-48-6650, the build quality was > ridiculously good. I am little leary of > their replacement, the 48-48-5120, but it > seems to be doing fine in our installs. It > has only been a year or so, so the jury is > still out. But all the same features I > described above apply. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 4:18 PM Jason > Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > For what it's worth, they haven't said > anything about internet connectivity > on these two systems I'm dealing with > right now, and they are both Gen 3. > > One site has a bunch of firmware > discrepancies, and this is the site > with one module that has all cells low > voltage. Not sure if it's even > recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. > > The other site has all the same > firmware. This is the one I went to > today. One of 16 modules (2 full > stacks) has one of 15 cells internally > that is low voltage. To me, that's a > clear warranty swap situation, but > customer service wasn't having it. > Disassemble the battery and charge it? > That's not a solution. It has been > escalated. We will see what happens. > > Clearly we should be able to take > these back to the shop for diagnostics > at a minimum and get them RMA'd. > Requiring the purchase of a Windows > laptop and a battery charger is not > ideal for sure. > > The only good thing I can say is > customer service took over my PC today > remotely and ran diagnostics after > installing the required software > (which isn't a fast process). I was > expecting them to say, "yep it's toast > and we're sending you a new one, > valued customer." > > No such luck. > > Jason > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone > Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Yep. And the 10 year warranty is > only good if connected to the > internet. Firmware update of every > module is crucial or else there > will likely be imbalances. You may > be able to address it as 1 and > shut of the others and charge it > through the bus but if it's cell > voltage is too low it may be an > rma situation. I have had similar > issues especially with gen 2. Zero > issues yet with any gen 3 modules > but the internet thing really > struck a nerve as they only just > recently got their internet > monitoring functional.. having to > go back to every site is a serious > pain just to ensure what should be > a basic warranty. Best of luck and > feel free to contact me offsite if > you have any other questions I > might be able to  help with. > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM > Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I am regretting some HomeGrid > Stack'd off-grid installations > right now. There is a major > flaw in the way these function > in an error state. For those > of you that don't know, these > 48V batteries are stacked with > a single BMS on top, covering > up to 8 batteries below. Each > battery module has a circuit > breaker and dip switches to > identify the battery > communication number and > location in the stack. Each > BMS can be paralleled to > additional stacks with > communication cabling. > > The issue is when one battery > module goes into an error > state. What will happen is > that battery stack's BMS will > recognize the error, and then > shut down the whole stack. > This cascades to the other > stacks and the system shuts > down - fails to deliver 48V at > the output terminals on the > BMS of any stack. > > That is annoying, but what's > even more problematic is you > can't just shut off the > offending battery to bypass > it. You need to physically > change all of the dip switches > to bypass it and then > reprogram the BMS to > re-recognize the new module > count (after taking it out of > parallel). This is all very > time consuming and requires > the inverter system to be shut > down. Even if a battery is not > in an error state, you can't > just turn it off. The whole > system goes haywire. > Once you have it bypassed, you > can hook up a RS-232 cable > (Mac users need not apply) and > use their software to gather > diagnostics. Customer service > will then want to do > additional diagnostics with > the battery in the stock, but > that is not reasonable in and > off-grid system where uptime > is critical. One of the faulty > modules I am dealing with was > diagnosed as one of 15 cells > with low voltage. The > "solution" is to take it out > of the stack and charge it to > 100% with an external charger. > > By the time I'm done with all > of the diagnostic nonsense, I > can almost pay for a new > battery with the lost labor. > Isn't the whole idea for this > not to happen with balancing > done automatically? It was > suggested to me that it didn't > get charged to 100% often > enough, and that is why it > happened. That isn't an > acceptable reason for failure > in an off-grid system. > > I hate to say this, but EG4 > has a far better 5kWh solution > in this respect. Each module > has it's own BMS. When one > fails, you can simply turn off > the circuit breaker and > everything else continues to > work. In fact, a fault in one > BMS doesn't take out the whole > stack or stacks of battery > modules. > > Back to HomeGrid. When this > happens, in my mind this is an > automatic RMA. They should be > replacing these, no questions > asked. Especially at almost > twice the price of EG4. They > actually want me to > disassemble the case of the > battery and charge it with an > external charger (which I > don't have) directly from the > terminals that are internal to > the battery case. Totally > unacceptable. Whatever is > inside that case is their > problem in my opinion. > > I am not selling anymore > HomeGrid until I get > satisfactory resolution to > these issues. EG4 isn't > perfect, but I have actually > had pretty good success > installing some that I sold > and quite a few that consumers > purchased directly. And at > almost half the price, it's > easier to eat the cost of a > battery here and there for > customer satisfaction. > > Anyone have similar issues > with HomeGrid? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Feb 14 15:59:46 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 12:59:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: <534d9f9c-e9e9-41bd-bb7b-9859e111f1bd@coveoregon.com> References: <998d3f72-0511-4fe5-8eee-3010eaf9fe8d@email.android.com> <534d9f9c-e9e9-41bd-bb7b-9859e111f1bd@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: It's true. I caught wind of this over the summer and switched to Victron/Discover to stay ahead of the curve. NAZ has some smoking deals on XWpros. Tech support is still available and has actually been really good. Not sure for how much longer On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 12:46 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Schneider's website is still there but it shows the Conext products as > being discontinued. > > Word is that a couple well know online retail companies bought up almost > all the inventory except for some number of items that Schneider held for > warranty supply. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 2/14/2025 10:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > This is the first time I'm hearing of that. The product line is still > listed on their website. > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025, 1:28 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> They discontinued the Conext line. Mo more XWs >> >> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 9:45 AM Glenn via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Whoa, what did I miss? >>> How is Schneider out of the picture? >>> >>> -Glenn >>> >>> On Feb 14, 2025 12:28, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> I think I have seen or heard of issues and failures with all of the Li >>> batteries at this point. Even my favorite, Discover. So then, what is most >>> important to me is good tech support and customer service. Discover has >>> been awesome. Midnite has been great too. Discover is releasing a >>> 16kwhr battery very soon. Most of my OG systems for several years have been >>> Schneider/Discover. With Schneider out of the picture, I started using more >>> Victron equipment with Discover batteries. Now there's the Midnite AIO and >>> Powerlo16s. I've done several GTBB systems and like that combo for that >>> application. Bill's post reminded me of the Rosie/Barcelona. I'm wondering >>> what the pro's and cons are between the AIO and R/B for off-grid. Not many >>> choices left these days >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:47 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> I didn't initially realize they have the Powerflo16 outdoor >>> wallmount battery. I see you can get that capacity with it now. It's >>> disappointing that the stackable 5kWh Powerflo5 is limited to 80kWh (also >>> 16 units). Most of my clients build dedicated battery/inverter buildings >>> and need massive capacities to run their properties. I am trying to wrap my >>> head around how a multi-inverter Midnite AIO might be able to take >>> advantage of multiple un-paralleled battery banks to get around this >>> limitation. I'm waiting on a call from a Midnite rep to discuss this and >>> other questions I have. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 9:00 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> It looks like the limit to Midnite PowerFlo is 257kwh. >>> (16.076kwh/unit*16units in parallel). >>> >>> Best, >>> Amos >>> >>> >>> Amos Post >>> Integrity Energy >>> W 802.763.7023 >>> C 802.291.2188 >>> ienergyVT.com >>> Facebook >>> >>> On Feb 12, 2025, at 5:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for the feedback, Lou. >>> >>> Yep, they all seem to be borrowing the "delay and deny" tactic from the >>> insurance industry. It's an epidemic. Solar module manufacturers are doing >>> this, too (I'm looking at you, REC and Silfab, who have given me the D&D >>> treatment on two clear-cut warranty issues recently). I will continue to >>> give Enphase kudos for having readily available and mostly competent >>> customer service reps and a refreshingly liberal warranty process, >>> especially if you are experienced and know how to work the customer service >>> reps correctly to lead them to the right answer. >>> >>> Regarding the firmware issues on inverters and batteries, I have high >>> hopes for Midnite's AIO and MNPowerflo, given their claims that firmware >>> updates are tested, simultaneous, and seamless. This is a far cry from >>> Sol-Ark's new policy of refusing to do firmware updates unless a technician >>> is standing by on-site. It sounds like Midnite is listening, and the rest >>> are content with accepting mediocrity and pushing issues onto installers. >>> >>> And don't get me started about HomeGrid's pathetic app and registration >>> process... That little Gen 3 WiFi antenna gives you such high hopes, only >>> to end in huge disappointment. The app doesn't even seem to work. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 1:08 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> The current trend of manufacturers resisting issuing RMAs is concerning. >>> The amount of work they want us to do to confirm their problem is >>> staggering (Looking at you SolarEdge). With that said, we only have 7 >>> systems with HomeGrid batteries. We have had only one issue with them and >>> it was firmware related. Unfortunately their firmware upgrade process is a >>> total kludge so much so that like Jason, I just let them take over my >>> laptop and let them handle it. It really made me appreciate Discover's >>> software and firmware update process. We have a lot of Discover batteries >>> out there and like the EG4s you can just shut off the bad battery and move >>> on. In addition, if you have a battery module that is "dark start low" you >>> can actually "charge" it (it's more like spilling electricity) from a good >>> battery in the stack by turning off all the loads and charging sources >>> (i.e. the inverter) and all the battery modules except one good one and the >>> bad one. After you get the low one to a decent state of charge you can fire >>> everything up and put a good balance charge on the entire stack. I have >>> found their support to be great as well. They also just took their remote >>> battery monitoring out of beta so now you can see battery info directly >>> online. Which is nice. I am a big fan of having redundant monitoring so we >>> can "trust but verify" the data being reported by the various components. I >>> am still bummed they ended production of the 42-48-6650, the build quality >>> was ridiculously good. I am little leary of their replacement, >>> the 48-48-5120, but it seems to be doing fine in our installs. It has only >>> been a year or so, so the jury is still out. But all the same features I >>> described above apply. >>> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> Lou Russo >>> Owner >>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >>> Office - 808 345 6762 >>> Spree Solar Systems LLC >>> CT-34322 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 4:18 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet >>> connectivity on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are >>> both Gen 3. >>> >>> One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site >>> with one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even >>> recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. >>> >>> The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to >>> today. One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally >>> that is low voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but >>> customer service wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? >>> That's not a solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens. >>> >>> Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for diagnostics >>> at a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a Windows laptop >>> and a battery charger is not ideal for sure. >>> >>> The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today >>> remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which >>> isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and >>> we're sending you a new one, valued customer." >>> >>> No such luck. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the internet. >>> Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will likely be >>> imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the others and >>> charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it may be an >>> rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. Zero issues >>> yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really struck a nerve as >>> they only just recently got their internet monitoring functional.. having >>> to go back to every site is a serious pain just to ensure what should be a >>> basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to contact me offsite if you >>> have any other questions I might be able to help with. >>> Tyrone Houck >>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >>> 541-787-1366 >>> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right now. >>> There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For >>> those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single >>> BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a >>> circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication >>> number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional >>> stacks with communication cabling. >>> >>> The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What will >>> happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then shut >>> down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system >>> shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any >>> stack. >>> >>> That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just >>> shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change >>> all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to >>> re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This >>> is all very time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut >>> down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it >>> off. The whole system goes haywire. >>> >>> Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users >>> need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer >>> service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the >>> stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is >>> critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one >>> of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack >>> and charge it to 100% with an external charger. >>> >>> By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost >>> pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this >>> not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me >>> that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it >>> happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid >>> system. >>> >>> I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this >>> respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn >>> off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a >>> fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery >>> modules. >>> >>> Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic >>> RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at >>> almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the >>> case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't >>> have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. >>> Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my >>> opinion. >>> >>> I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution to >>> these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good >>> success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers >>> purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the >>> cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. >>> >>> Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Feb 14 17:48:00 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 17:48:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48V Charger Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you all for these great suggestions. Ultimately, l decided on waiting for a back ordered Chargeverter. It seems to be the most versatile option. I figure it will sit in my shop most of the time, so portability is not really as important as I initially considered it to be. But some of the lower current units could really help on a job site with a small charging source, and the prices are attractive, so I might pick up another one if mobility becomes an issue. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 10:46 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I bought a LiTime 18A charger, which appears to be similar to other > inexpensive chargers. It charges up to a certain voltage, about 54 to 55 > volts, not the 58.4 volts it says (which is good) and then turns off. It > does not turn on again at any voltage I've been down to. Maybe at some > voltage below 52 it might I don't know. It does not turn on again unless I > disconnect and reconnect the AC. Maybe the other similar chargers do this > also, maybe not. It will charge without DC voltage connected. > > I also bought the Nice-Power 60V/10A power supply from Current Connected > and it works just as expected. > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 7:07 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I bought this one for a client. >> >> Works fine >> I removed the end and put clamps on it. $95 >> >> [image: battery-charger-m100-1.2.jpg] >> >> VEVOR 48 Volt Golf Cart Battery Charger, 15 AMP, Smart Battery Charger >> with RXV Plug, Compatible with Lead-Acid AGM/GEL/EFB MF Flooded NMC LiFePO4 >> Batteries for EZGO TXT, IP67 Waterproof ETL Certified >> >> vevor.com >> >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 14, 2025, at 7:27 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Hello Jason, >> >> I have had success with the cheap, variable power supplies on Amazon. >> Its nice to be able to adjust output voltage from 0-60V for the >> various battery bank voltages we encounter. You have to build your own >> cord but they are small and easy to have on the truck. They are slow but >> typically, this isn't a big deal if you are just trying to get it above the >> BMS cut out voltage. There is very little actual charge from <40V to 48V, >> then you can engage the power system to do the heavy charging. I like to >> be able to apply charge to the cell directly if there is one that is >> problematic if there is access to the cell level. >> >> Just remember that you probably want a power supply that doesn't require >> a battery to wake up. It's hard to have all of the tools, dongles, apps >> etc that we need on a service call these days! >> >> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 7:01 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Jason, >>> >>> The NOCO GX4820 is a great charger. I've used it to dark-start Fortress >>> and Blue Planet 48v cabinets, instead of dinky trickle chargers taking >>> hours to do the same job. >>> Priced at $500 a year and a half ago. its rated @ 110 -240 vac input. >>> The one I bought came only with a 120v cord. >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 7:29 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm looking for a suggestion for a good all-around charger for service >>>> purposes. I would consider a 240V or 120V option. The purpose is primarily >>>> to charge 5kWh lithium batteries. >>>> >>>> I would probably just pick up an EG4 Chargeverter, but it is >>>> back-ordered. Something more portable would be nice. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>> >>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>> >>> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >>> >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> >>> 802.559.1225 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: battery-charger-m100-1.2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18655 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Feb 14 17:49:49 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 17:49:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: <998d3f72-0511-4fe5-8eee-3010eaf9fe8d@email.android.com> <534d9f9c-e9e9-41bd-bb7b-9859e111f1bd@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Yeah, I see Zonna has some XP Pros at an insanely low price. I would have a hard time selling this to a client knowing they are discontinued, however. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 4:00 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > It's true. I caught wind of this over the summer and switched to > Victron/Discover to stay ahead of the curve. NAZ has some smoking deals on > XWpros. Tech support is still available and has actually been really good. > Not sure for how much longer > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 12:46 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Schneider's website is still there but it shows the Conext products as >> being discontinued. >> >> Word is that a couple well know online retail companies bought up almost >> all the inventory except for some number of items that Schneider held for >> warranty supply. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 2/14/2025 10:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> This is the first time I'm hearing of that. The product line is still >> listed on their website. >> >> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025, 1:28 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> They discontinued the Conext line. Mo more XWs >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 9:45 AM Glenn via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Whoa, what did I miss? >>>> How is Schneider out of the picture? >>>> >>>> -Glenn >>>> >>>> On Feb 14, 2025 12:28, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> I think I have seen or heard of issues and failures with all of the Li >>>> batteries at this point. Even my favorite, Discover. So then, what is most >>>> important to me is good tech support and customer service. Discover has >>>> been awesome. Midnite has been great too. Discover is releasing a >>>> 16kwhr battery very soon. Most of my OG systems for several years have been >>>> Schneider/Discover. With Schneider out of the picture, I started using more >>>> Victron equipment with Discover batteries. Now there's the Midnite AIO and >>>> Powerlo16s. I've done several GTBB systems and like that combo for that >>>> application. Bill's post reminded me of the Rosie/Barcelona. I'm wondering >>>> what the pro's and cons are between the AIO and R/B for off-grid. Not many >>>> choices left these days >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:47 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> I didn't initially realize they have the Powerflo16 outdoor >>>> wallmount battery. I see you can get that capacity with it now. It's >>>> disappointing that the stackable 5kWh Powerflo5 is limited to 80kWh (also >>>> 16 units). Most of my clients build dedicated battery/inverter buildings >>>> and need massive capacities to run their properties. I am trying to wrap my >>>> head around how a multi-inverter Midnite AIO might be able to take >>>> advantage of multiple un-paralleled battery banks to get around this >>>> limitation. I'm waiting on a call from a Midnite rep to discuss this and >>>> other questions I have. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 9:00 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Jason, >>>> >>>> It looks like the limit to Midnite PowerFlo is 257kwh. >>>> (16.076kwh/unit*16units in parallel). >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Amos >>>> >>>> >>>> Amos Post >>>> Integrity Energy >>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>> ienergyVT.com >>>> Facebook >>>> >>>> On Feb 12, 2025, at 5:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks for the feedback, Lou. >>>> >>>> Yep, they all seem to be borrowing the "delay and deny" tactic from the >>>> insurance industry. It's an epidemic. Solar module manufacturers are doing >>>> this, too (I'm looking at you, REC and Silfab, who have given me the D&D >>>> treatment on two clear-cut warranty issues recently). I will continue to >>>> give Enphase kudos for having readily available and mostly competent >>>> customer service reps and a refreshingly liberal warranty process, >>>> especially if you are experienced and know how to work the customer service >>>> reps correctly to lead them to the right answer. >>>> >>>> Regarding the firmware issues on inverters and batteries, I have high >>>> hopes for Midnite's AIO and MNPowerflo, given their claims that firmware >>>> updates are tested, simultaneous, and seamless. This is a far cry from >>>> Sol-Ark's new policy of refusing to do firmware updates unless a technician >>>> is standing by on-site. It sounds like Midnite is listening, and the rest >>>> are content with accepting mediocrity and pushing issues onto installers. >>>> >>>> And don't get me started about HomeGrid's pathetic app and registration >>>> process... That little Gen 3 WiFi antenna gives you such high hopes, only >>>> to end in huge disappointment. The app doesn't even seem to work. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 1:08 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> The current trend of manufacturers resisting issuing RMAs is >>>> concerning. The amount of work they want us to do to confirm their problem >>>> is staggering (Looking at you SolarEdge). With that said, we only have 7 >>>> systems with HomeGrid batteries. We have had only one issue with them and >>>> it was firmware related. Unfortunately their firmware upgrade process is a >>>> total kludge so much so that like Jason, I just let them take over my >>>> laptop and let them handle it. It really made me appreciate Discover's >>>> software and firmware update process. We have a lot of Discover batteries >>>> out there and like the EG4s you can just shut off the bad battery and move >>>> on. In addition, if you have a battery module that is "dark start low" you >>>> can actually "charge" it (it's more like spilling electricity) from a good >>>> battery in the stack by turning off all the loads and charging sources >>>> (i.e. the inverter) and all the battery modules except one good one and the >>>> bad one. After you get the low one to a decent state of charge you can fire >>>> everything up and put a good balance charge on the entire stack. I have >>>> found their support to be great as well. They also just took their remote >>>> battery monitoring out of beta so now you can see battery info directly >>>> online. Which is nice. I am a big fan of having redundant monitoring so we >>>> can "trust but verify" the data being reported by the various components. I >>>> am still bummed they ended production of the 42-48-6650, the build quality >>>> was ridiculously good. I am little leary of their replacement, >>>> the 48-48-5120, but it seems to be doing fine in our installs. It has only >>>> been a year or so, so the jury is still out. But all the same features I >>>> described above apply. >>>> >>>> Aloha, >>>> >>>> Lou Russo >>>> Owner >>>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >>>> Office - 808 345 6762 >>>> Spree Solar Systems LLC >>>> CT-34322 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 4:18 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet >>>> connectivity on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are >>>> both Gen 3. >>>> >>>> One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site >>>> with one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even >>>> recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. >>>> >>>> The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to >>>> today. One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally >>>> that is low voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but >>>> customer service wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? >>>> That's not a solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens. >>>> >>>> Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for >>>> diagnostics at a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a >>>> Windows laptop and a battery charger is not ideal for sure. >>>> >>>> The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today >>>> remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which >>>> isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and >>>> we're sending you a new one, valued customer." >>>> >>>> No such luck. >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the >>>> internet. Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will >>>> likely be imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the >>>> others and charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it >>>> may be an rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. >>>> Zero issues yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really struck >>>> a nerve as they only just recently got their internet monitoring >>>> functional.. having to go back to every site is a serious pain just to >>>> ensure what should be a basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to >>>> contact me offsite if you have any other questions I might be able to help >>>> with. >>>> Tyrone Houck >>>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>>> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >>>> 541-787-1366 >>>> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right now. >>>> There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For >>>> those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single >>>> BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a >>>> circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication >>>> number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional >>>> stacks with communication cabling. >>>> >>>> The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What >>>> will happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then >>>> shut down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system >>>> shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any >>>> stack. >>>> >>>> That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just >>>> shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change >>>> all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to >>>> re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This >>>> is all very time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut >>>> down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it >>>> off. The whole system goes haywire. >>>> >>>> Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users >>>> need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer >>>> service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the >>>> stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is >>>> critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one >>>> of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack >>>> and charge it to 100% with an external charger. >>>> >>>> By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost >>>> pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this >>>> not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me >>>> that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it >>>> happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid >>>> system. >>>> >>>> I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this >>>> respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn >>>> off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a >>>> fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery >>>> modules. >>>> >>>> Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic >>>> RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at >>>> almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the >>>> case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't >>>> have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. >>>> Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my >>>> opinion. >>>> >>>> I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution >>>> to these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good >>>> success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers >>>> purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the >>>> cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. >>>> >>>> Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Feb 14 17:52:13 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 17:52:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had a site (not my install) with a ground rack and these TS4-F units, and they exhibited the exact same burn characteristics. At least half of them were burned up to some degree. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 2:11 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Nick, > > Yes, it's the TS4-F units. We have made every effort to install to the > specs provided (as the goal post and solutions keep changing) but have > still seen RSD's start to swell and/or burn over time. We've separated DC > wires and home runs and stayed within the home run complete circuit > distance that is recommended. We've used the "Pure Signal" transmitter > solution that syncs up the signaling from multiple inverters in an effort > to avoid the "chatter" that starts when the RSD is failing (see video below > about that). > > It's all field R&D at our expense in my opinion. Sadly, I'd be happy if > the RSD failed and didn't work but it starts to work in overdrive until it > burns up and causes an arc. These photos below are from a site where we > got lucky and the fire didn't spread. Below the photos is a link to a > video of Tigo and Mayfield discussing the crosstalk issue. > > > > > > Here is a video discussion of the cross-talk and signal corruption issues > that are the supposed cause of the unit's failure's: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_1_0Ofuhao > > Mayfield Renewables and Tigo Energy - Crosstalk Workshop > > A deep dive into how to design PLC (Power-Line Communication) based solar > rapid shutdown systems in order to minimize cross-talk and other signal > integrity issues. This is a technical presentation meant to assist with the > design of large scale solar rooftop arrays that use PLC-based rapid > shutdown systems, which are used to meet the rapid ... > www.youtube.com > > David Buckner > > President > > 917-848-0215 > > 718-389-1545 > > 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, February 14, 2025 1:26 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Nick Lucchese > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience > > CAUTION: External Email. > Greetings David, > > Can you elaborate on which products of theirs failed catastrophically? > Their TS4-F single and double units by chance? My experience has been an > annoying occurrence where certain installed units lock up > requring replacement after the array is shut down for O&M tasks but nothing > that starts burning as you mentioned. I've still got a reasonable amount of > them in my inventory but would rather not deploy if they're "burning" in > some way. > > Thanks for sharing your experience, Nick > > *We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from plenty > of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects and > blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power > line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted > should not be allowed to remain on the market.* > > *David Buckner* > *SES* > > David Buckner > > President > > Solar Energy Systems > > 917-848-0215 > > 718-389-1545 > > dbuckner at solaresystems.com > > www.solaresystems.com > > > 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:06 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from plenty > of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects and > blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power > line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted > should not be allowed to remain on the market. > > David Buckner > SES > > David Buckner > > President > > Solar Energy Systems > > 917-848-0215 > > 718-389-1545 > > dbuckner at solaresystems.com > > www.solaresystems.com > > > 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 > > The information contained in this email message, including any attached > files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is > intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the > intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal > information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, > the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby > notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward > this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured > or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, > destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender > therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the > contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail > transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the > sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank > you. > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2025 7:05 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Howie Michaelson > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience > > CAUTION: External Email. > I do not have a lot of experience with Tigo equipment, almost all using > their optimizers with CCAs and TAPs. The 2 things I can say is after > getting my head wrapped around the setup and commissioning process (which > is not the most intuitive process), I haven't had much trouble with them > (again only have maybe 4 or 5 systems out there), and their tech support is > generally very available and very knowledgeable and helpful, impressively > so. Otherwise I can't speak much to their durability, reliability, or > functionality. > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:50 PM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Dave > I haven't tried their micro inverter or ESS, but so far all the products > that I've used from Tigo including the RSD switches that melted have been > problematic. Personally, I wouldn't use their products. > > > Vince McClellan > > President > > NABCEP PV Professional > > p: 541-485-8122 > > a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 > > e: vince at solarenergydesign.com > > w: SolarEnergyDesign.com > > CCB# 161672 > > > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please > delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of > this email is strictly prohibited. > > > > On Thu, Feb 6, 2025 at 10:53 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > I am curious if anyone has any experience with the Tigo inverter and > energy storage system. It looks very similar to the SMA setup, but maybe a > bit farther along in development. Even as just a simple string inverter, it > seems fairly reasonably priced. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image157869.png Type: image/png Size: 40037 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image016112.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image717129.png Type: image/png Size: 596 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image157869.png Type: image/png Size: 40037 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Feb 14 18:40:59 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 16:40:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof.  Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD?  How many fire fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack through the array to vent the roof? I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the roof with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their venting.  The whole premise of RSD is flawed.  IMHO, its just another effort to block the wider adoption of solar. When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, water, and heat.  Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our customers' lives better. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/14/2025 3:52 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > I had a site (not my install) with a ground rack and these TS4-Funits, > and they exhibited the exact same burn characteristics. At least half > of them were burned up to some degree. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 2:11 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hello Nick, > > Yes, it's the TS4-F units.  We have made every effort to install > to the specs provided (as the goal post and solutions keep > changing) but have still seen RSD's start to swell and/or burn > over time.  We've separated DC wires and home runs and stayed > within the home run complete circuit distance that is > recommended.  We've used the "Pure Signal" transmitter solution > that syncs up the signaling from multiple inverters in an effort > to avoid the "chatter" that starts when the RSD is failing (see > video below about that). > > It's all field R&D at our expense in my opinion. Sadly, I'd be > happy if the RSD failed and didn't work but it starts to work in > overdrive until it burns up and causes an arc.  These photos below > are from a site where we got lucky and the fire didn't spread.  > Below the photos is a link to a video of Tigo and Mayfield > discussing the crosstalk issue. > > > > > > Here is a video discussion of the cross-talk and signal corruption > issues that are the supposed cause of the unit's failure's: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_1_0Ofuhao > > > Mayfield Renewables and Tigo Energy - Crosstalk Workshop > > A deep dive into how to design PLC (Power-Line Communication) > based solar rapid shutdown systems in order to minimize cross-talk > and other signal integrity issues. This is a technical > presentation meant to assist with the design of large scale solar > rooftop arrays that use PLC-based rapid shutdown systems, which > are used to meet the rapid ... > www.youtube.com > > > > > > David Buckner > > > > President > > > > 917-848-0215 > > > > 718-389-1545 > > > > 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on > behalf of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > > *Sent:* Friday, February 14, 2025 1:26 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Nick Lucchese > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience > CAUTION: External Email. > Greetings David, > > Can you elaborate on which products of theirs failed > catastrophically? Their TS4-F single and double units by chance? > My experience has been an annoying occurrence where certain > installed units lock up requring replacement after the array is > shut down for O&M tasks but nothing that starts burning as you > mentioned. I've still got a reasonable amount of them in my > inventory but would rather not deploy if they're "burning" in some > way. > > Thanks for sharing your experience, Nick > > /We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from > plenty of others that have had the same.  The company denies and > deflects and blames the installer until you are fatigued.  A > product that uses power line communication that can start burning > when the signal gets corrupted should not be allowed to remain on > the market./ > / > / > /David Buckner/ > /SES/ > > > > > David Buckner > > > > President > > Solar Energy Systems > > > > 917-848-0215 > > > > 718-389-1545 > > > > dbuckner at solaresystems.com > > > > www.solaresystems.com > > > > > 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:06 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard > from plenty of others that have had the same.  The company > denies and deflects and blames the installer until you are > fatigued.  A product that uses power line communication that > can start burning when the signal gets corrupted should not be > allowed to remain on the market. > > David Buckner > SES > > > > > David Buckner > > > > President > > Solar Energy Systems > > > > 917-848-0215 > > > > 718-389-1545 > > > > dbuckner at solaresystems.com > > > > www.solaresystems.com > > > > > 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 > > The information contained in this email message, including any > attached files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally > privileged. It is intended for the sole use of the > individual(s) named above. If you are the intended recipient, > be aware that your use of any confidential or personal > information may be restricted by state and federal privacy > laws. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that you should not further > disseminate, distribute or forward this email message. Email > transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured or error-free > as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, > destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The > sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or > omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a > result of this e-mail transmission. If you have received this > email in error, please notify the sender and immediately > delete the material from your computer system. Thank you. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches > on behalf of Howie > Michaelson via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2025 7:05 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Howie Michaelson > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience > CAUTION: External Email. > I do not have a lot of experience with Tigo equipment, almost > all using their optimizers with CCAs and TAPs.  The 2 things I > can say is after getting my head wrapped around the setup and > commissioning process (which is not the most intuitive > process), I haven't had much trouble with them (again only > have maybe 4 or 5 systems out there), and their tech support > is generally very available and very knowledgeable and > helpful, impressively so. Otherwise I can't speak much to > their durability, reliability, or functionality. > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:50 PM Vince McClellan via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Dave > I haven't tried their micro inverter or ESS, but so far > all the products that I've used from Tigo including the > RSD switches that melted have been problematic. > Personally, I wouldn't use their products. > > > Vince McClellan > > President > > NABCEP PV Professional > > p: 541-485-8122 > > a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 > > e: vince at solarenergydesign.com > > > w: SolarEnergyDesign.com > > CCB# 161672 > > > > If you have received this email and are not the intended > recipient, please delete this email. Copying or using any > part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly > prohibited. > > > > > On Thu, Feb 6, 2025 at 10:53 AM Dave Tedeyan via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > I am curious if anyone has any experience with the > Tigo inverter and energy storage system. It looks very > similar to the SMA setup, but maybe a bit farther > along in development. Even as just a simple string > inverter, it seems fairly reasonably priced. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > Logo > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 387727 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 367791 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 437677 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image717129.png Type: image/png Size: 596 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brett at oregonsunwrangler.com Fri Feb 14 20:27:59 2025 From: brett at oregonsunwrangler.com (Brett Stigile) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 18:27:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL3741 Message-ID: <2bffecff463f9eb85e09e9524e6285af@oregonsunwrangler.com> I'm enjoying the discussion on MLPE failures and wondering how do we move forward away from them. I've seen some info on UL3741 that might offer the industry a way around or out of using these devices. I've heard UL3741 has good traction in the commercial space but what about residential? There is a YouTube channel by "derek the solarboi" @dereksolarboi who talks about the problem and potential solution/exit strategy with a UL listing. Curious if people are following this and think we might be able to get away from adding MLPE soon. thanks -- Brett Stigile Owner/Renewable Energy Electrician 503-317-7950 brett at oregonsunwrangler.com Oregon Sun Wrangler LLC CCB: 240661 License No: 66LRT NABCEP PV Installation Professional certification # PV 100414-008123 From tyronehouck at gmail.com Fri Feb 14 22:02:28 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2025 19:02:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APSmart MLPE Message-ID: In light of the recent conversations about tigo mlpe's I'm curious what experiences others have had with APSmart. We have a lot of them out there and never had any issues with them that we are aware of though I've often thought how difficult it may be to troubleshoot if there ever were issues. We have never had cross talk problems though we primarily do residential installations and very rarely anything over 25kw so it's easy to manage. I would love any feedback, experiences, or advice regarding best practices or things to watch out for, conditions to avoid, etc. Thank you in advance! Sunny Regards, Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Sat Feb 15 09:04:49 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2025 06:04:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil disobedience? I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the bullshit in the aftermath. I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the rest of your career? On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of > equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. > Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire > fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack > through the array to vent the roof? > > I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the roof > with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their > venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another > effort to block the wider adoption of solar. > > When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to > amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, > water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our > customers' lives better. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 2/14/2025 3:52 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I had a site (not my install) with a ground rack and these TS4-F units, > and they exhibited the exact same burn characteristics. At least half of > them were burned up to some degree. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 2:11 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello Nick, >> >> Yes, it's the TS4-F units. We have made every effort to install to the >> specs provided (as the goal post and solutions keep changing) but have >> still seen RSD's start to swell and/or burn over time. We've separated DC >> wires and home runs and stayed within the home run complete circuit >> distance that is recommended. We've used the "Pure Signal" transmitter >> solution that syncs up the signaling from multiple inverters in an effort >> to avoid the "chatter" that starts when the RSD is failing (see video below >> about that). >> >> It's all field R&D at our expense in my opinion. Sadly, I'd be happy if >> the RSD failed and didn't work but it starts to work in overdrive until it >> burns up and causes an arc. These photos below are from a site where we >> got lucky and the fire didn't spread. Below the photos is a link to a >> video of Tigo and Mayfield discussing the crosstalk issue. >> >> >> >> >> >> Here is a video discussion of the cross-talk and signal corruption issues >> that are the supposed cause of the unit's failure's: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_1_0Ofuhao >> >> Mayfield Renewables and Tigo Energy - Crosstalk Workshop >> >> A deep dive into how to design PLC (Power-Line Communication) based solar >> rapid shutdown systems in order to minimize cross-talk and other signal >> integrity issues. This is a technical presentation meant to assist with the >> design of large scale solar rooftop arrays that use PLC-based rapid >> shutdown systems, which are used to meet the rapid ... >> www.youtube.com >> >> >> David Buckner >> >> President >> >> 917-848-0215 >> >> 718-389-1545 >> >> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Sent:* Friday, February 14, 2025 1:26 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Nick Lucchese >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience >> >> CAUTION: External Email. >> Greetings David, >> >> Can you elaborate on which products of theirs failed catastrophically? >> Their TS4-F single and double units by chance? My experience has been an >> annoying occurrence where certain installed units lock up >> requring replacement after the array is shut down for O&M tasks but nothing >> that starts burning as you mentioned. I've still got a reasonable amount of >> them in my inventory but would rather not deploy if they're "burning" in >> some way. >> >> Thanks for sharing your experience, Nick >> >> *We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from plenty >> of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects and >> blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power >> line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted >> should not be allowed to remain on the market.* >> >> *David Buckner* >> *SES* >> >> >> David Buckner >> >> President >> >> Solar Energy Systems >> >> 917-848-0215 >> >> 718-389-1545 >> >> dbuckner at solaresystems.com >> >> www.solaresystems.com >> >> >> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >> >> On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:06 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from plenty >> of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects and >> blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power >> line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted >> should not be allowed to remain on the market. >> >> David Buckner >> SES >> >> >> David Buckner >> >> President >> >> Solar Energy Systems >> >> 917-848-0215 >> >> 718-389-1545 >> >> dbuckner at solaresystems.com >> >> www.solaresystems.com >> >> >> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >> >> The information contained in this email message, including any attached >> files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is >> intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the >> intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal >> information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, >> the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby >> notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward >> this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured >> or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, >> destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender >> therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the >> contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail >> transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the >> sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank >> you. >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2025 7:05 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Howie Michaelson >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience >> >> CAUTION: External Email. >> I do not have a lot of experience with Tigo equipment, almost all using >> their optimizers with CCAs and TAPs. The 2 things I can say is after >> getting my head wrapped around the setup and commissioning process (which >> is not the most intuitive process), I haven't had much trouble with them >> (again only have maybe 4 or 5 systems out there), and their tech support is >> generally very available and very knowledgeable and helpful, impressively >> so. Otherwise I can't speak much to their durability, reliability, or >> functionality. >> >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:50 PM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Dave >> I haven't tried their micro inverter or ESS, but so far all the products >> that I've used from Tigo including the RSD switches that melted have been >> problematic. Personally, I wouldn't use their products. >> >> >> Vince McClellan >> >> President >> >> NABCEP PV Professional >> >> p: 541-485-8122 >> >> a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 >> >> >> e: vince at solarenergydesign.com >> >> w: SolarEnergyDesign.com >> >> CCB# 161672 >> >> >> >> If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, >> please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment >> of this email is strictly prohibited. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 6, 2025 at 10:53 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> I am curious if anyone has any experience with the Tigo inverter and >> energy storage system. It looks very similar to the SMA setup, but maybe a >> bit farther along in development. Even as just a simple string inverter, it >> seems fairly reasonably priced. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >> >> >> | Ithaca, >> NY 14850 >> >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image386447.png Type: image/png Size: 608 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image228829.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 387727 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image016112.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sat Feb 15 10:44:09 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2025 07:44:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You asked... the IMO FireRaptors I've installed seem to be completely reliable since they have their own separate 24VDC activation circuit. I do kind of like that the circuits are dead while working on them, but the extra wiring is of course more work. There is a huge amount of wire mgmt to do since the leads are all 6ft long, both the PV output circuits and the 24VDC activation circuits. Best is the fact that they work on ANY charge control or inverter. With older modules like my REC260's you can put two modules per FireRaptor. It would be fine by me if RSD was no longer a requirement. Doesn't Tesla have a UL listing for array level RSD now? BTW the AP smart does not work with Classic charge controllers. On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 6:07 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil > disobedience? > I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and > refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the > bullshit in the aftermath. > I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: > Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad > RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to > comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the > rest of your career? > > > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of >> equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. >> Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire >> fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack >> through the array to vent the roof? >> >> I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the >> roof with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their >> venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another >> effort to block the wider adoption of solar. >> >> When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to >> amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, >> water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our >> customers' lives better. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 2/14/2025 3:52 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I had a site (not my install) with a ground rack and these TS4-F units, >> and they exhibited the exact same burn characteristics. At least half of >> them were burned up to some degree. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 2:11 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello Nick, >>> >>> Yes, it's the TS4-F units. We have made every effort to install to the >>> specs provided (as the goal post and solutions keep changing) but have >>> still seen RSD's start to swell and/or burn over time. We've separated DC >>> wires and home runs and stayed within the home run complete circuit >>> distance that is recommended. We've used the "Pure Signal" transmitter >>> solution that syncs up the signaling from multiple inverters in an effort >>> to avoid the "chatter" that starts when the RSD is failing (see video below >>> about that). >>> >>> It's all field R&D at our expense in my opinion. Sadly, I'd be happy if >>> the RSD failed and didn't work but it starts to work in overdrive until it >>> burns up and causes an arc. These photos below are from a site where we >>> got lucky and the fire didn't spread. Below the photos is a link to a >>> video of Tigo and Mayfield discussing the crosstalk issue. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is a video discussion of the cross-talk and signal corruption >>> issues that are the supposed cause of the unit's failure's: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_1_0Ofuhao >>> >>> Mayfield Renewables and Tigo Energy - Crosstalk Workshop >>> >>> A deep dive into how to design PLC (Power-Line Communication) based >>> solar rapid shutdown systems in order to minimize cross-talk and other >>> signal integrity issues. This is a technical presentation meant to assist >>> with the design of large scale solar rooftop arrays that use PLC-based >>> rapid shutdown systems, which are used to meet the rapid ... >>> www.youtube.com >>> >>> >>> David Buckner >>> >>> President >>> >>> 917-848-0215 >>> >>> 718-389-1545 >>> >>> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>> behalf of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> *Sent:* Friday, February 14, 2025 1:26 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Nick Lucchese >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience >>> >>> CAUTION: External Email. >>> Greetings David, >>> >>> Can you elaborate on which products of theirs failed catastrophically? >>> Their TS4-F single and double units by chance? My experience has been an >>> annoying occurrence where certain installed units lock up >>> requring replacement after the array is shut down for O&M tasks but nothing >>> that starts burning as you mentioned. I've still got a reasonable amount of >>> them in my inventory but would rather not deploy if they're "burning" in >>> some way. >>> >>> Thanks for sharing your experience, Nick >>> >>> *We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from >>> plenty of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects >>> and blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power >>> line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted >>> should not be allowed to remain on the market.* >>> >>> *David Buckner* >>> *SES* >>> >>> >>> David Buckner >>> >>> President >>> >>> Solar Energy Systems >>> >>> 917-848-0215 >>> >>> 718-389-1545 >>> >>> dbuckner at solaresystems.com >>> >>> www.solaresystems.com >>> >>> >>> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:06 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from plenty >>> of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects and >>> blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power >>> line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted >>> should not be allowed to remain on the market. >>> >>> David Buckner >>> SES >>> >>> >>> David Buckner >>> >>> President >>> >>> Solar Energy Systems >>> >>> 917-848-0215 >>> >>> 718-389-1545 >>> >>> dbuckner at solaresystems.com >>> >>> www.solaresystems.com >>> >>> >>> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >>> >>> The information contained in this email message, including any attached >>> files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is >>> intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the >>> intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal >>> information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, >>> the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby >>> notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward >>> this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured >>> or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, >>> destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender >>> therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the >>> contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail >>> transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the >>> sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank >>> you. >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>> behalf of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2025 7:05 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Howie Michaelson >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience >>> >>> CAUTION: External Email. >>> I do not have a lot of experience with Tigo equipment, almost all using >>> their optimizers with CCAs and TAPs. The 2 things I can say is after >>> getting my head wrapped around the setup and commissioning process (which >>> is not the most intuitive process), I haven't had much trouble with them >>> (again only have maybe 4 or 5 systems out there), and their tech support is >>> generally very available and very knowledgeable and helpful, impressively >>> so. Otherwise I can't speak much to their durability, reliability, or >>> functionality. >>> >>> Howie Michaelson >>> Sun Catcher >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:50 PM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Dave >>> I haven't tried their micro inverter or ESS, but so far all the products >>> that I've used from Tigo including the RSD switches that melted have been >>> problematic. Personally, I wouldn't use their products. >>> >>> >>> Vince McClellan >>> >>> President >>> >>> NABCEP PV Professional >>> >>> p: 541-485-8122 >>> >>> a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 >>> >>> >>> e: vince at solarenergydesign.com >>> >>> w: SolarEnergyDesign.com >>> >>> CCB# 161672 >>> >>> >>> >>> If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, >>> please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment >>> of this email is strictly prohibited. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2025 at 10:53 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> I am curious if anyone has any experience with the Tigo inverter and >>> energy storage system. It looks very similar to the SMA setup, but maybe a >>> bit farther along in development. Even as just a simple string inverter, it >>> seems fairly reasonably priced. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> -- >>> >>> [image: Logo] >>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>> p: he | him | his >>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>> >>> >>> | Ithaca, >>> NY 14850 >>> >>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image947377.png Type: image/png Size: 499 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image717129.png Type: image/png Size: 596 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image851251.png Type: image/png Size: 596 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image016112.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sat Feb 15 10:47:48 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2025 07:47:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, I just looked to see if the FireRaptor is still somewhat pricey, and it looks like they might be hard to find if available at all. The only source I found had them for double the price they used to be from OutBack. On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 7:44 AM Bradley Bassett wrote: > You asked... the IMO FireRaptors I've installed seem to be completely > reliable since they have their own separate 24VDC activation circuit. I do > kind of like that the circuits are dead while working on them, but the > extra wiring is of course more work. There is a huge amount of wire mgmt to > do since the leads are all 6ft long, both the PV output circuits and the > 24VDC activation circuits. Best is the fact that they work on ANY charge > control or inverter. With older modules like my REC260's you can put two > modules per FireRaptor. > > It would be fine by me if RSD was no longer a requirement. > Doesn't Tesla have a UL listing for array level RSD now? > BTW the AP smart does not work with Classic charge controllers. > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 6:07 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil >> disobedience? >> I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and >> refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the >> bullshit in the aftermath. >> I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: >> Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad >> RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to >> comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the >> rest of your career? >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of >>> equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. >>> Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire >>> fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack >>> through the array to vent the roof? >>> >>> I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the >>> roof with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their >>> venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another >>> effort to block the wider adoption of solar. >>> >>> When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to >>> amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, >>> water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our >>> customers' lives better. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> On 2/14/2025 3:52 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> I had a site (not my install) with a ground rack and these TS4-F units, >>> and they exhibited the exact same burn characteristics. At least half of >>> them were burned up to some degree. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 2:11 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Nick, >>>> >>>> Yes, it's the TS4-F units. We have made every effort to install to the >>>> specs provided (as the goal post and solutions keep changing) but have >>>> still seen RSD's start to swell and/or burn over time. We've separated DC >>>> wires and home runs and stayed within the home run complete circuit >>>> distance that is recommended. We've used the "Pure Signal" transmitter >>>> solution that syncs up the signaling from multiple inverters in an effort >>>> to avoid the "chatter" that starts when the RSD is failing (see video below >>>> about that). >>>> >>>> It's all field R&D at our expense in my opinion. Sadly, I'd be happy >>>> if the RSD failed and didn't work but it starts to work in overdrive until >>>> it burns up and causes an arc. These photos below are from a site where we >>>> got lucky and the fire didn't spread. Below the photos is a link to a >>>> video of Tigo and Mayfield discussing the crosstalk issue. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Here is a video discussion of the cross-talk and signal corruption >>>> issues that are the supposed cause of the unit's failure's: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_1_0Ofuhao >>>> >>>> Mayfield Renewables and Tigo Energy - Crosstalk Workshop >>>> >>>> A deep dive into how to design PLC (Power-Line Communication) based >>>> solar rapid shutdown systems in order to minimize cross-talk and other >>>> signal integrity issues. This is a technical presentation meant to assist >>>> with the design of large scale solar rooftop arrays that use PLC-based >>>> rapid shutdown systems, which are used to meet the rapid ... >>>> www.youtube.com >>>> >>>> >>>> David Buckner >>>> >>>> President >>>> >>>> 917-848-0215 >>>> >>>> 718-389-1545 >>>> >>>> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>>> behalf of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>> *Sent:* Friday, February 14, 2025 1:26 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* Nick Lucchese >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience >>>> >>>> CAUTION: External Email. >>>> Greetings David, >>>> >>>> Can you elaborate on which products of theirs failed catastrophically? >>>> Their TS4-F single and double units by chance? My experience has been an >>>> annoying occurrence where certain installed units lock up >>>> requring replacement after the array is shut down for O&M tasks but nothing >>>> that starts burning as you mentioned. I've still got a reasonable amount of >>>> them in my inventory but would rather not deploy if they're "burning" in >>>> some way. >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing your experience, Nick >>>> >>>> *We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from >>>> plenty of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects >>>> and blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power >>>> line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted >>>> should not be allowed to remain on the market.* >>>> >>>> *David Buckner* >>>> *SES* >>>> >>>> >>>> David Buckner >>>> >>>> President >>>> >>>> Solar Energy Systems >>>> >>>> 917-848-0215 >>>> >>>> 718-389-1545 >>>> >>>> dbuckner at solaresystems.com >>>> >>>> www.solaresystems.com >>>> >>>> >>>> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:06 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from >>>> plenty of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects >>>> and blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power >>>> line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted >>>> should not be allowed to remain on the market. >>>> >>>> David Buckner >>>> SES >>>> >>>> >>>> David Buckner >>>> >>>> President >>>> >>>> Solar Energy Systems >>>> >>>> 917-848-0215 >>>> >>>> 718-389-1545 >>>> >>>> dbuckner at solaresystems.com >>>> >>>> www.solaresystems.com >>>> >>>> >>>> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >>>> >>>> The information contained in this email message, including any attached >>>> files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is >>>> intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the >>>> intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal >>>> information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, >>>> the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby >>>> notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward >>>> this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured >>>> or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, >>>> destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender >>>> therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the >>>> contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail >>>> transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the >>>> sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank >>>> you. >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>>> behalf of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2025 7:05 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* Howie Michaelson >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience >>>> >>>> CAUTION: External Email. >>>> I do not have a lot of experience with Tigo equipment, almost all using >>>> their optimizers with CCAs and TAPs. The 2 things I can say is after >>>> getting my head wrapped around the setup and commissioning process (which >>>> is not the most intuitive process), I haven't had much trouble with them >>>> (again only have maybe 4 or 5 systems out there), and their tech support is >>>> generally very available and very knowledgeable and helpful, impressively >>>> so. Otherwise I can't speak much to their durability, reliability, or >>>> functionality. >>>> >>>> Howie Michaelson >>>> Sun Catcher >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:50 PM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Dave >>>> I haven't tried their micro inverter or ESS, but so far all the >>>> products that I've used from Tigo including the RSD switches that melted >>>> have been problematic. Personally, I wouldn't use their products. >>>> >>>> >>>> Vince McClellan >>>> >>>> President >>>> >>>> NABCEP PV Professional >>>> >>>> p: 541-485-8122 >>>> >>>> a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 >>>> >>>> >>>> e: vince at solarenergydesign.com >>>> >>>> w: SolarEnergyDesign.com >>>> >>>> CCB# 161672 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, >>>> please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment >>>> of this email is strictly prohibited. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2025 at 10:53 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> I am curious if anyone has any experience with the Tigo inverter and >>>> energy storage system. It looks very similar to the SMA setup, but maybe a >>>> bit farther along in development. Even as just a simple string inverter, it >>>> seems fairly reasonably priced. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> [image: Logo] >>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>> p: he | him | his >>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>> >>>> >>>> | Ithaca, >>>> NY 14850 >>>> >>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. 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Name: image016112.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Feb 15 14:38:11 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2025 11:38:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? Message-ID: David, Ray: I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS equipment I have installed and I have had minimal problems with optimizers and micro-inverters (which are also RSS equipment). Apparently others have had failures. We don’t know statically how serious this problem is—the posts here are purely anecdotal. We also have not heard from the other side of the debate: the fire fighters. Based on lack of verifiable information I can not personally conclude that RSS is all problem and no benefit. To declare that the concept is flawed because the equipment available is not reliable is like saying we should not be required to install airbags because a bad batch of them was manufactured. We are seeing problems with the equipment needed to implement a safety requirement. That observation does not logically conclude the safety requirement is not valuable. I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out of hand. Safety systems are designed to save lives and protect from injury, and most of them do. I am glad to have anti-lock brakes, smoke detectors and air bags. I have also found it quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to work more safely on solar circuits. Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts in the fire-response community that can comment on the their side of the issue? If RSD is really necessary for safety, then I will do my best to install good equipment properly and hold manufacturers accountable for shoddy solutions. If RSD is not that effective we need to discuss undoing the code requirements. Sincerely, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *david quattro via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* david quattro *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil disobedience? I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the bullshit in the aftermath. I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the rest of your career? On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack through the array to vent the roof? I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the roof with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another effort to block the wider adoption of solar. When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our customers' lives better. Ray Walters Remote Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Feb 15 14:46:39 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2025 14:46:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8a225ac6-198d-4001-af3b-fccc26e1cf64@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sat Feb 15 14:53:39 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2025 11:53:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience In-Reply-To: <8a225ac6-198d-4001-af3b-fccc26e1cf64@email.android.com> References: <8a225ac6-198d-4001-af3b-fccc26e1cf64@email.android.com> Message-ID: It is from IMO. If someone buys enough volume the price might be closer to reasonable, but with installation labor it will always be a premium product. It might be worthwhile for off grid projects. On Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 11:47 AM Glenn via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I thought the FireRaptor was an IMO device? > > -Glenn > > On Feb 15, 2025 10:47, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Oh, I just looked to see if the FireRaptor is still somewhat pricey, and > it looks like they might be hard to find if available at all. The only > source I found had them for double the price they used to be from OutBack. > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 7:44 AM Bradley Bassett > wrote: > > You asked... the IMO FireRaptors I've installed seem to be completely > reliable since they have their own separate 24VDC activation circuit. I do > kind of like that the circuits are dead while working on them, but the > extra wiring is of course more work. There is a huge amount of wire mgmt to > do since the leads are all 6ft long, both the PV output circuits and the > 24VDC activation circuits. Best is the fact that they work on ANY charge > control or inverter. With older modules like my REC260's you can put two > modules per FireRaptor. > > It would be fine by me if RSD was no longer a requirement. > Doesn't Tesla have a UL listing for array level RSD now? > BTW the AP smart does not work with Classic charge controllers. > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 6:07 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil > disobedience? > I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and > refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the > bullshit in the aftermath. > I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: > Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad > RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to > comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the > rest of your career? > > > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of > equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. > Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire > fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack > through the array to vent the roof? > > I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the roof > with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their > venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another > effort to block the wider adoption of solar. > > When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to > amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, > water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our > customers' lives better. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 2/14/2025 3:52 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I had a site (not my install) with a ground rack and these TS4-F units, > and they exhibited the exact same burn characteristics. At least half of > them were burned up to some degree. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 2:11 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hello Nick, > > Yes, it's the TS4-F units. We have made every effort to install to the > specs provided (as the goal post and solutions keep changing) but have > still seen RSD's start to swell and/or burn over time. We've separated DC > wires and home runs and stayed within the home run complete circuit > distance that is recommended. We've used the "Pure Signal" transmitter > solution that syncs up the signaling from multiple inverters in an effort > to avoid the "chatter" that starts when the RSD is failing (see video below > about that). > > It's all field R&D at our expense in my opinion. Sadly, I'd be happy if > the RSD failed and didn't work but it starts to work in overdrive until it > burns up and causes an arc. These photos below are from a site where we > got lucky and the fire didn't spread. Below the photos is a link to a > video of Tigo and Mayfield discussing the crosstalk issue. > > > > > > Here is a video discussion of the cross-talk and signal corruption issues > that are the supposed cause of the unit's failure's: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_1_0Ofuhao > > Mayfield Renewables and Tigo Energy - Crosstalk Workshop > > A deep dive into how to design PLC (Power-Line Communication) based solar > rapid shutdown systems in order to minimize cross-talk and other signal > integrity issues. This is a technical presentation meant to assist with the > design of large scale solar rooftop arrays that use PLC-based rapid > shutdown systems, which are used to meet the rapid ... > www.youtube.com > > > David Buckner > > President > > 917-848-0215 > > 718-389-1545 > > 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, February 14, 2025 1:26 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Nick Lucchese > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience > > CAUTION: External Email. > Greetings David, > > Can you elaborate on which products of theirs failed catastrophically? > Their TS4-F single and double units by chance? My experience has been an > annoying occurrence where certain installed units lock up > requring replacement after the array is shut down for O&M tasks but nothing > that starts burning as you mentioned. I've still got a reasonable amount of > them in my inventory but would rather not deploy if they're "burning" in > some way. > > Thanks for sharing your experience, Nick > > *We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from plenty > of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects and > blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power > line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted > should not be allowed to remain on the market.* > > *David Buckner* > *SES* > > > David Buckner > > President > > Solar Energy Systems > > 917-848-0215 > > 718-389-1545 > > dbuckner at solaresystems.com > > www.solaresystems.com > > > 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:06 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from plenty > of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects and > blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power > line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted > should not be allowed to remain on the market. > > David Buckner > SES > > > David Buckner > > President > > Solar Energy Systems > > 917-848-0215 > > 718-389-1545 > > dbuckner at solaresystems.com > > www.solaresystems.com > > > 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 > > The information contained in this email message, including any attached > files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is > intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the > intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal > information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, > the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby > notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward > this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured > or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, > destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender > therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the > contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail > transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the > sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank > you. > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2025 7:05 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Howie Michaelson > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Feb 15 16:53:39 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2025 13:53:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience In-Reply-To: References: <8a225ac6-198d-4001-af3b-fccc26e1cf64@email.android.com> Message-ID: On the subject of RSD, Remember when SMA had the RSD box, goes next to the array on the roof and in the event it opens rhe contacts, never had any issues with that box, as long as you shut the array down within 3 feet of that array. I can see the use of arc fault along with ground fault but RSD at the nodule has its benefits but at an increase in other potential liabilities. Fun times On Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 11:54 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > It is from IMO. If someone buys enough volume the price might be closer to > reasonable, but with installation labor it will always be a premium > product. It might be worthwhile for off grid projects. > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 11:47 AM Glenn via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I thought the FireRaptor was an IMO device? >> >> -Glenn >> >> On Feb 15, 2025 10:47, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Oh, I just looked to see if the FireRaptor is still somewhat pricey, and >> it looks like they might be hard to find if available at all. The only >> source I found had them for double the price they used to be from OutBack. >> >> On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 7:44 AM Bradley Bassett >> wrote: >> >> You asked... the IMO FireRaptors I've installed seem to be completely >> reliable since they have their own separate 24VDC activation circuit. I do >> kind of like that the circuits are dead while working on them, but the >> extra wiring is of course more work. There is a huge amount of wire mgmt to >> do since the leads are all 6ft long, both the PV output circuits and the >> 24VDC activation circuits. Best is the fact that they work on ANY charge >> control or inverter. With older modules like my REC260's you can put two >> modules per FireRaptor. >> >> It would be fine by me if RSD was no longer a requirement. >> Doesn't Tesla have a UL listing for array level RSD now? >> BTW the AP smart does not work with Classic charge controllers. >> >> On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 6:07 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil >> disobedience? >> I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and >> refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the >> bullshit in the aftermath. >> I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: >> Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad >> RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to >> comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the >> rest of your career? >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of >> equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. >> Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire >> fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack >> through the array to vent the roof? >> >> I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the >> roof with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their >> venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another >> effort to block the wider adoption of solar. >> >> When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to >> amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, >> water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our >> customers' lives better. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 2/14/2025 3:52 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I had a site (not my install) with a ground rack and these TS4-F units, >> and they exhibited the exact same burn characteristics. At least half of >> them were burned up to some degree. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 2:11 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hello Nick, >> >> Yes, it's the TS4-F units. We have made every effort to install to the >> specs provided (as the goal post and solutions keep changing) but have >> still seen RSD's start to swell and/or burn over time. We've separated DC >> wires and home runs and stayed within the home run complete circuit >> distance that is recommended. We've used the "Pure Signal" transmitter >> solution that syncs up the signaling from multiple inverters in an effort >> to avoid the "chatter" that starts when the RSD is failing (see video below >> about that). >> >> It's all field R&D at our expense in my opinion. Sadly, I'd be happy if >> the RSD failed and didn't work but it starts to work in overdrive until it >> burns up and causes an arc. These photos below are from a site where we >> got lucky and the fire didn't spread. Below the photos is a link to a >> video of Tigo and Mayfield discussing the crosstalk issue. >> >> >> >> >> >> Here is a video discussion of the cross-talk and signal corruption issues >> that are the supposed cause of the unit's failure's: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_1_0Ofuhao >> >> Mayfield Renewables and Tigo Energy - Crosstalk Workshop >> >> A deep dive into how to design PLC (Power-Line Communication) based solar >> rapid shutdown systems in order to minimize cross-talk and other signal >> integrity issues. This is a technical presentation meant to assist with the >> design of large scale solar rooftop arrays that use PLC-based rapid >> shutdown systems, which are used to meet the rapid ... >> www.youtube.com >> >> >> David Buckner >> >> President >> >> 917-848-0215 >> >> 718-389-1545 >> >> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Sent:* Friday, February 14, 2025 1:26 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Nick Lucchese >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience >> >> CAUTION: External Email. >> Greetings David, >> >> Can you elaborate on which products of theirs failed catastrophically? >> Their TS4-F single and double units by chance? My experience has been an >> annoying occurrence where certain installed units lock up >> requring replacement after the array is shut down for O&M tasks but nothing >> that starts burning as you mentioned. I've still got a reasonable amount of >> them in my inventory but would rather not deploy if they're "burning" in >> some way. >> >> Thanks for sharing your experience, Nick >> >> *We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from plenty >> of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects and >> blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power >> line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted >> should not be allowed to remain on the market.* >> >> *David Buckner* >> *SES* >> >> >> David Buckner >> >> President >> >> Solar Energy Systems >> >> 917-848-0215 >> >> 718-389-1545 >> >> dbuckner at solaresystems.com >> >> www.solaresystems.com >> >> >> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >> >> On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:06 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from plenty >> of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects and >> blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power >> line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted >> should not be allowed to remain on the market. >> >> David Buckner >> SES >> >> >> David Buckner >> >> President >> >> Solar Energy Systems >> >> 917-848-0215 >> >> 718-389-1545 >> >> dbuckner at solaresystems.com >> >> www.solaresystems.com >> >> >> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >> >> The information contained in this email message, including any attached >> files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is >> intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the >> intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal >> information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, >> the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby >> notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward >> this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured >> or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, >> destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender >> therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the >> contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail >> transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the >> sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank >> you. >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2025 7:05 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Howie Michaelson >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Sat Feb 15 17:03:10 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2025 14:03:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience In-Reply-To: References: <8a225ac6-198d-4001-af3b-fccc26e1cf64@email.android.com> Message-ID: So funny you say that...I've had several problems with those SMA RSD boxes. Commonly, relays sticking open and requiring replacement.. also few with faults internal to the circuit board. Relatively easy to troubleshoot but still a pain. Anybody had any issues with APSmart? I've been using those lately with no issues yet.. Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 1:54 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > On the subject of RSD, Remember when SMA had the RSD box, goes next to the > array on the roof and in the event it opens rhe contacts, never had any > issues with that box, as long as you shut the array down within 3 feet of > that array. I can see the use of arc fault along with ground fault but RSD > at the nodule has its benefits but at an increase in other potential > liabilities. > Fun times > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 11:54 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> It is from IMO. If someone buys enough volume the price might be closer >> to reasonable, but with installation labor it will always be a premium >> product. It might be worthwhile for off grid projects. >> >> On Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 11:47 AM Glenn via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I thought the FireRaptor was an IMO device? >>> >>> -Glenn >>> >>> On Feb 15, 2025 10:47, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Oh, I just looked to see if the FireRaptor is still somewhat pricey, and >>> it looks like they might be hard to find if available at all. The only >>> source I found had them for double the price they used to be from OutBack. >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 7:44 AM Bradley Bassett >>> wrote: >>> >>> You asked... the IMO FireRaptors I've installed seem to be completely >>> reliable since they have their own separate 24VDC activation circuit. I do >>> kind of like that the circuits are dead while working on them, but the >>> extra wiring is of course more work. There is a huge amount of wire mgmt to >>> do since the leads are all 6ft long, both the PV output circuits and the >>> 24VDC activation circuits. Best is the fact that they work on ANY charge >>> control or inverter. With older modules like my REC260's you can put two >>> modules per FireRaptor. >>> >>> It would be fine by me if RSD was no longer a requirement. >>> Doesn't Tesla have a UL listing for array level RSD now? >>> BTW the AP smart does not work with Classic charge controllers. >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 6:07 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil >>> disobedience? >>> I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and >>> refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the >>> bullshit in the aftermath. >>> I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: >>> Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad >>> RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to >>> comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the >>> rest of your career? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of >>> equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. >>> Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire >>> fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack >>> through the array to vent the roof? >>> >>> I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the >>> roof with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their >>> venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another >>> effort to block the wider adoption of solar. >>> >>> When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to >>> amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, >>> water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our >>> customers' lives better. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> On 2/14/2025 3:52 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> I had a site (not my install) with a ground rack and these TS4-F units, >>> and they exhibited the exact same burn characteristics. At least half of >>> them were burned up to some degree. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 2:11 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hello Nick, >>> >>> Yes, it's the TS4-F units. We have made every effort to install to the >>> specs provided (as the goal post and solutions keep changing) but have >>> still seen RSD's start to swell and/or burn over time. We've separated DC >>> wires and home runs and stayed within the home run complete circuit >>> distance that is recommended. We've used the "Pure Signal" transmitter >>> solution that syncs up the signaling from multiple inverters in an effort >>> to avoid the "chatter" that starts when the RSD is failing (see video below >>> about that). >>> >>> It's all field R&D at our expense in my opinion. Sadly, I'd be happy if >>> the RSD failed and didn't work but it starts to work in overdrive until it >>> burns up and causes an arc. These photos below are from a site where we >>> got lucky and the fire didn't spread. Below the photos is a link to a >>> video of Tigo and Mayfield discussing the crosstalk issue. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is a video discussion of the cross-talk and signal corruption >>> issues that are the supposed cause of the unit's failure's: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_1_0Ofuhao >>> >>> Mayfield Renewables and Tigo Energy - Crosstalk Workshop >>> >>> A deep dive into how to design PLC (Power-Line Communication) based >>> solar rapid shutdown systems in order to minimize cross-talk and other >>> signal integrity issues. This is a technical presentation meant to assist >>> with the design of large scale solar rooftop arrays that use PLC-based >>> rapid shutdown systems, which are used to meet the rapid ... >>> www.youtube.com >>> >>> >>> David Buckner >>> >>> President >>> >>> 917-848-0215 >>> >>> 718-389-1545 >>> >>> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>> behalf of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> *Sent:* Friday, February 14, 2025 1:26 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Nick Lucchese >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience >>> >>> CAUTION: External Email. >>> Greetings David, >>> >>> Can you elaborate on which products of theirs failed catastrophically? >>> Their TS4-F single and double units by chance? My experience has been an >>> annoying occurrence where certain installed units lock up >>> requring replacement after the array is shut down for O&M tasks but nothing >>> that starts burning as you mentioned. I've still got a reasonable amount of >>> them in my inventory but would rather not deploy if they're "burning" in >>> some way. >>> >>> Thanks for sharing your experience, Nick >>> >>> *We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from >>> plenty of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects >>> and blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power >>> line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted >>> should not be allowed to remain on the market.* >>> >>> *David Buckner* >>> *SES* >>> >>> >>> David Buckner >>> >>> President >>> >>> Solar Energy Systems >>> >>> 917-848-0215 >>> >>> 718-389-1545 >>> >>> dbuckner at solaresystems.com >>> >>> www.solaresystems.com >>> >>> >>> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:06 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from plenty >>> of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects and >>> blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power >>> line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted >>> should not be allowed to remain on the market. >>> >>> David Buckner >>> SES >>> >>> >>> David Buckner >>> >>> President >>> >>> Solar Energy Systems >>> >>> 917-848-0215 >>> >>> 718-389-1545 >>> >>> dbuckner at solaresystems.com >>> >>> www.solaresystems.com >>> >>> >>> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >>> >>> The information contained in this email message, including any attached >>> files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is >>> intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the >>> intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal >>> information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, >>> the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby >>> notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward >>> this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured >>> or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, >>> destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender >>> therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the >>> contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail >>> transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the >>> sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank >>> you. >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>> behalf of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2025 7:05 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Howie Michaelson >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Feb 15 17:18:26 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2025 14:18:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience In-Reply-To: References: <8a225ac6-198d-4001-af3b-fccc26e1cf64@email.android.com> Message-ID: Interesting Tyron, We don't cycle then under load as in the real world the power has already been eliminated and this crashes the inverter, contractors go open. I still like the idea of one box vs one per module as on some of installs that have fifty to 100 or more sometimes modules on the roof, usually on may exposures and locations. On Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 2:03 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > So funny you say that...I've had several problems with those SMA RSD > boxes. Commonly, relays sticking open and requiring replacement.. also few > with faults internal to the circuit board. Relatively easy to troubleshoot > but still a pain. > > Anybody had any issues with APSmart? I've been using those lately with no > issues yet.. > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 1:54 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> On the subject of RSD, Remember when SMA had the RSD box, goes next to >> the array on the roof and in the event it opens rhe contacts, never had any >> issues with that box, as long as you shut the array down within 3 feet of >> that array. I can see the use of arc fault along with ground fault but RSD >> at the nodule has its benefits but at an increase in other potential >> liabilities. >> Fun times >> >> On Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 11:54 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> It is from IMO. If someone buys enough volume the price might be closer >>> to reasonable, but with installation labor it will always be a premium >>> product. It might be worthwhile for off grid projects. >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 15, 2025, 11:47 AM Glenn via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I thought the FireRaptor was an IMO device? >>>> >>>> -Glenn >>>> >>>> On Feb 15, 2025 10:47, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Oh, I just looked to see if the FireRaptor is still somewhat pricey, >>>> and it looks like they might be hard to find if available at all. The only >>>> source I found had them for double the price they used to be from OutBack. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 7:44 AM Bradley Bassett >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> You asked... the IMO FireRaptors I've installed seem to be completely >>>> reliable since they have their own separate 24VDC activation circuit. I do >>>> kind of like that the circuits are dead while working on them, but the >>>> extra wiring is of course more work. There is a huge amount of wire mgmt to >>>> do since the leads are all 6ft long, both the PV output circuits and the >>>> 24VDC activation circuits. Best is the fact that they work on ANY charge >>>> control or inverter. With older modules like my REC260's you can put two >>>> modules per FireRaptor. >>>> >>>> It would be fine by me if RSD was no longer a requirement. >>>> Doesn't Tesla have a UL listing for array level RSD now? >>>> BTW the AP smart does not work with Classic charge controllers. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 6:07 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil >>>> disobedience? >>>> I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together >>>> and refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with >>>> the bullshit in the aftermath. >>>> I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: >>>> Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really >>>> glad RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to >>>> comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the >>>> rest of your career? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of >>>> equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. >>>> Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire >>>> fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack >>>> through the array to vent the roof? >>>> >>>> I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the >>>> roof with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their >>>> venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another >>>> effort to block the wider adoption of solar. >>>> >>>> When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to >>>> amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, >>>> water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our >>>> customers' lives better. >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> On 2/14/2025 3:52 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> I had a site (not my install) with a ground rack and these TS4-F units, >>>> and they exhibited the exact same burn characteristics. At least half of >>>> them were burned up to some degree. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 2:11 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello Nick, >>>> >>>> Yes, it's the TS4-F units. We have made every effort to install to the >>>> specs provided (as the goal post and solutions keep changing) but have >>>> still seen RSD's start to swell and/or burn over time. We've separated DC >>>> wires and home runs and stayed within the home run complete circuit >>>> distance that is recommended. We've used the "Pure Signal" transmitter >>>> solution that syncs up the signaling from multiple inverters in an effort >>>> to avoid the "chatter" that starts when the RSD is failing (see video below >>>> about that). >>>> >>>> It's all field R&D at our expense in my opinion. Sadly, I'd be happy >>>> if the RSD failed and didn't work but it starts to work in overdrive until >>>> it burns up and causes an arc. These photos below are from a site where we >>>> got lucky and the fire didn't spread. Below the photos is a link to a >>>> video of Tigo and Mayfield discussing the crosstalk issue. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Here is a video discussion of the cross-talk and signal corruption >>>> issues that are the supposed cause of the unit's failure's: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_1_0Ofuhao >>>> >>>> Mayfield Renewables and Tigo Energy - Crosstalk Workshop >>>> >>>> A deep dive into how to design PLC (Power-Line Communication) based >>>> solar rapid shutdown systems in order to minimize cross-talk and other >>>> signal integrity issues. This is a technical presentation meant to assist >>>> with the design of large scale solar rooftop arrays that use PLC-based >>>> rapid shutdown systems, which are used to meet the rapid ... >>>> www.youtube.com >>>> >>>> >>>> David Buckner >>>> >>>> President >>>> >>>> 917-848-0215 >>>> >>>> 718-389-1545 >>>> >>>> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>>> behalf of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>> *Sent:* Friday, February 14, 2025 1:26 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* Nick Lucchese >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience >>>> >>>> CAUTION: External Email. >>>> Greetings David, >>>> >>>> Can you elaborate on which products of theirs failed catastrophically? >>>> Their TS4-F single and double units by chance? My experience has been an >>>> annoying occurrence where certain installed units lock up >>>> requring replacement after the array is shut down for O&M tasks but nothing >>>> that starts burning as you mentioned. I've still got a reasonable amount of >>>> them in my inventory but would rather not deploy if they're "burning" in >>>> some way. >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing your experience, Nick >>>> >>>> *We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from >>>> plenty of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects >>>> and blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power >>>> line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted >>>> should not be allowed to remain on the market.* >>>> >>>> *David Buckner* >>>> *SES* >>>> >>>> >>>> David Buckner >>>> >>>> President >>>> >>>> Solar Energy Systems >>>> >>>> 917-848-0215 >>>> >>>> 718-389-1545 >>>> >>>> dbuckner at solaresystems.com >>>> >>>> www.solaresystems.com >>>> >>>> >>>> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 6:06 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> We've had catastrophic failures with the RSDs and have heard from >>>> plenty of others that have had the same. The company denies and deflects >>>> and blames the installer until you are fatigued. A product that uses power >>>> line communication that can start burning when the signal gets corrupted >>>> should not be allowed to remain on the market. >>>> >>>> David Buckner >>>> SES >>>> >>>> >>>> David Buckner >>>> >>>> President >>>> >>>> Solar Energy Systems >>>> >>>> 917-848-0215 >>>> >>>> 718-389-1545 >>>> >>>> dbuckner at solaresystems.com >>>> >>>> www.solaresystems.com >>>> >>>> >>>> 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 >>>> >>>> The information contained in this email message, including any attached >>>> files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is >>>> intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the >>>> intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal >>>> information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, >>>> the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby >>>> notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward >>>> this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured >>>> or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, >>>> destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender >>>> therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the >>>> contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail >>>> transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the >>>> sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank >>>> you. >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>>> behalf of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 13, 2025 7:05 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* Howie Michaelson >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Mon Feb 17 12:30:45 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 09:30:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It seems anecdotal until it happens to you. My mention of civil disobedience has been answered clearly with a “No” in this forum, and I'm fine to hear that. I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly think RSD has been a huge and costly mistake. I genuinely think RSD requirements should be terminated immediately. If the technology were more robust and if it worked consistently I wouldn't protest. But *all* the products I've tried have been trouble. William, respectfully your analogy to seat belts is not an appropriate comparison to Rapid Shutdown. Seat-belts were required in all new cars starting in 1968 because there was statistical evidence supporting their tremendous efficacy in saving human life. Currently seat belts save about 15,000 lives per year. Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because of the following paranoid fairytale scenario - “A firefighter is on a burning solar roof in the daytime, and wearing a metal axe at their hip. the poor guy/gal falls into live solar glass, and shatters it. The fall is so forceful that the heavy-duty fireman’s suit is punctured. Electricity conducts through the axe blade, through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC circuit is completed through their body.” As far as I know, this has never happened once anywhere on earth. Let’s be honest - this scenario has an incredibly low chance of ever happening in all the future of humanity. So considering that RSD has never helped anyone yet, and probably never will... How many fires can be attributed to RSD? How much property damage has occurred because of these fires? The best path to safety for firefighters is by preventing fire disasters in the first place. Fires spread. Any fire that happens endangers property owners, tenants, business owners, neighbors, shoppers, bystanders, nearby forests, etc. RSD manufacturers aren't doing a good job right now, so we are seeing low quality unreliable electronics on the roof. I will stick my neck out and admit that installers are not always perfect. Humans make mistakes - sometimes in initial construction, and sometimes during repair and maintenance (i.e. when hunting down failed RSD's which happens far more than it should). At this time, these devices are not being designed to withstand reality. When problems happen, manufacturers are quibbling. They ignore you until you go away, or until you sue them. This level of "safety" is not important, and in fact RSD is causing fires every year. On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller wrote: > David, Ray: > > > > I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS equipment I have installed > and I have had minimal problems with optimizers and micro-inverters (which > are also RSS equipment). Apparently others have had failures. We don’t > know statically how serious this problem is—the posts here are purely > anecdotal. > > > > We also have not heard from the other side of the debate: the fire > fighters. > > > > Based on lack of verifiable information I can not personally conclude that > RSS is all problem and no benefit. > > > > To declare that the concept is flawed because the equipment available is > not reliable is like saying we should not be required to install airbags > because a bad batch of them was manufactured. We are seeing problems with > the equipment needed to implement a safety requirement. That observation > does not logically conclude the safety requirement is not valuable. > > > > I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out of hand. Safety systems > are designed to save lives and protect from injury, and most of them do. I > am glad to have anti-lock brakes, smoke detectors and air bags. I have > also found it quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to work more safely > on solar circuits. > > > > Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts in the fire-response > community that can comment on the their side of the issue? If RSD is > really necessary for safety, then I will do my best to install good > equipment properly and hold manufacturers accountable for shoddy > solutions. If RSD is not that effective we need to discuss undoing the > code requirements. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *david quattro via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* david quattro > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience > > > > RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil > disobedience? > > I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and > refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the > bullshit in the aftermath. > > I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: > Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad > RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to > comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the > rest of your career? > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of > equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. > Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire > fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack > through the array to vent the roof? > > I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the roof > with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their > venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another > effort to block the wider adoption of solar. > > When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to > amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, > water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our > customers' lives better. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Mon Feb 17 12:43:44 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 09:43:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup Message-ID: Greetings wrenches, In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings higher than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw residential limit, net metering applications are being rejected based on the inverter rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to handle the customer's existing loads and will never export more than the 25kw limit dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to Energy Trust, the state, etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had this problem or come up with a solution. I would appreciate to hear any experiences or similar interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this has worked in other jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is greatly appreciated. Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 17 12:56:03 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 09:56:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why is there a need for more than 25KW for residential please? Just curious. In Nevada, 25KW is way into commercial. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-02-17 9:43 am, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > Greetings wrenches, > In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with > regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings > higher than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw > residential limit, net metering applications are being rejected based > on the inverter rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to > handle the customer's existing loads and will never export more than > the 25kw limit dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to > Energy Trust, the state, etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had > this problem or come up with a solution. I would appreciate to hear any > experiences or similar interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this > has worked in other jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is > greatly appreciated. > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Mon Feb 17 12:58:45 2025 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 12:58:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Seems like there has been talk of rescinding RSD requirements before on this forum. It also seems that it might gain some traction if a dedicated group of installers spoke up to the right people (Code Making Panel for instance) and put some time into it. I agree that at the very least we need reliable RSD equipment, and my preference would be less vs more. Does anybody know if any sort of RSD is being required in Europe (not that we follow their electrical codes/ideas…just curious)??? Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook > On Feb 17, 2025, at 12:30 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: > > It seems anecdotal until it happens to you. > My mention of civil disobedience has been answered clearly with a “No” in this forum, and I'm fine to hear that. > I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly think RSD has been a huge and costly mistake. I genuinely think RSD requirements should be terminated immediately. If the technology were more robust and if it worked consistently I wouldn't protest. But all the products I've tried have been trouble. > William, respectfully your analogy to seat belts is not an appropriate comparison to Rapid Shutdown. Seat-belts were required in all new cars starting in 1968 because there was statistical evidence supporting their tremendous efficacy in saving human life. Currently seat belts save about 15,000 lives per year. > Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because of the following paranoid fairytale scenario - “A firefighter is on a burning solar roof in the daytime, and wearing a metal axe at their hip. the poor guy/gal falls into live solar glass, and shatters it. The fall is so forceful that the heavy-duty fireman’s suit is punctured. Electricity conducts through the axe blade, through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC circuit is completed through their body.” > As far as I know, this has never happened once anywhere on earth. Let’s be honest - this scenario has an incredibly low chance of ever happening in all the future of humanity. So considering that RSD has never helped anyone yet, and probably never will... How many fires can be attributed to RSD? How much property damage has occurred because of these fires? > The best path to safety for firefighters is by preventing fire disasters in the first place. Fires spread. Any fire that happens endangers property owners, tenants, business owners, neighbors, shoppers, bystanders, nearby forests, etc. RSD manufacturers aren't doing a good job right now, so we are seeing low quality unreliable electronics on the roof. I will stick my neck out and admit that installers are not always perfect. Humans make mistakes - sometimes in initial construction, and sometimes during repair and maintenance (i.e. when hunting down failed RSD's which happens far more than it should). > At this time, these devices are not being designed to withstand reality. When problems happen, manufacturers are quibbling. They ignore you until you go away, or until you sue them. > This level of "safety" is not important, and in fact RSD is causing fires every year. > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller > wrote: > David, Ray: > > > I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS equipment I have installed and I have had minimal problems with optimizers and micro-inverters (which are also RSS equipment). Apparently others have had failures. We don’t know statically how serious this problem is—the posts here are purely anecdotal. > > > We also have not heard from the other side of the debate: the fire fighters. > > > Based on lack of verifiable information I can not personally conclude that RSS is all problem and no benefit. > > > To declare that the concept is flawed because the equipment available is not reliable is like saying we should not be required to install airbags because a bad batch of them was manufactured. We are seeing problems with the equipment needed to implement a safety requirement. That observation does not logically conclude the safety requirement is not valuable. > > > I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out of hand. Safety systems are designed to save lives and protect from injury, and most of them do. I am glad to have anti-lock brakes, smoke detectors and air bags. I have also found it quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to work more safely on solar circuits. > > > Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts in the fire-response community that can comment on the their side of the issue? If RSD is really necessary for safety, then I will do my best to install good equipment properly and hold manufacturers accountable for shoddy solutions. If RSD is not that effective we need to discuss undoing the code requirements. > > > Sincerely, > > > William Miller > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of david quattro via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: david quattro > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience > > > RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil disobedience? > > I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the bullshit in the aftermath. > > I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: Does anyone have good experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the rest of your career? > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack through the array to vent the roof? > > I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the roof with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another effort to block the wider adoption of solar. > > When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our customers' lives better. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Mon Feb 17 13:01:04 2025 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 18:01:04 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The same in NY we had to change existing equipment to stay within the 25k AC net metering limit. Regards, Lloyd Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, February 17, 2025 12:56:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup Why is there a need for more than 25KW for residential please? Just curious. In Nevada, 25KW is way into commercial. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-02-17 9:43 am, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: Greetings wrenches, In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings higher than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw residential limit, net metering applications are being rejected based on the inverter rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to handle the customer's existing loads and will never export more than the 25kw limit dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to Energy Trust, the state, etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had this problem or come up with a solution. I would appreciate to hear any experiences or similar interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this has worked in other jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is greatly appreciated. Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Mon Feb 17 13:07:01 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 10:07:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 400a residential service, all electric, 2 full 200a panels worth of loads, customer wants whole house backup...we want to design it for reliability. On Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 9:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Why is there a need for more than 25KW for residential please? Just > curious. In Nevada, 25KW is way into commercial. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-02-17 9:43 am, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Greetings wrenches, > In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with > regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings higher > than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw residential > limit, net metering applications are being rejected based on the inverter > rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to handle the > customer's existing loads and will never export more than the 25kw limit > dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to Energy Trust, the state, > etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had this problem or come up with a > solution. I would appreciate to hear any experiences or similar > interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this has worked in other > jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is greatly appreciated. > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brett at oregonsunwrangler.com Mon Feb 17 13:22:44 2025 From: brett at oregonsunwrangler.com (Brett Stigile) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 11:22:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL3741 In-Reply-To: <2bffecff463f9eb85e09e9524e6285af@oregonsunwrangler.com> References: <2bffecff463f9eb85e09e9524e6285af@oregonsunwrangler.com> Message-ID: <933b93020498276ba69119f8dc046adb@oregonsunwrangler.com> My understanding of UL3741 PV hazard control is that it is another way to meet 690 rapid shut down requirements without MLPE. As long as you can locate the inverter within the array boundary. A nice solution for commercial where locating the inverter on the roof is fairly easy. I'm interested in knowing if anyone thinks this could be a solution (with some tweaking) in residential where locating the inverter on the roof is typically not an option. Is anyone pushing to either strip the code of requiring rapid shut down or offering a viable alternative such as UL3741 has done for commercial? Personally, I've used Tigo and AP Smart mostly without issues. They seem to pair well with most all in one inverters. However, I think they are a huge pain with off grid systems and charge controllers. Best to do ground mounts and avoid MLPE but that isn't always an option. The only issue I've had so far is trying to add Tigo TS4-2F to a MidNite Hawks Bay where I killed the Tigos. My take away was that it not worth the trouble. Here are some links for more info on UL3741. Mayfield Renewables has a course on it. https://courses.mayfield.energy/offers/ZBxkwokv/checkout?_gl=1*nusd4u*_ga*OTQzNzYwNTU0LjE3MjYxMTI2MTY.*_ga_QYYWLFVGDP*MTczOTgxMzY5Ny4yLjEuMTczOTgxMzg4OC4wLjAuMA.. SMA has a lot of info on it. See SMA link. https://www.sma-america.com/ul3741 Derek the solarboi YouTube channel "A Bonkers Summer for Solar/UL3741 News and Forcasting" Gives a nice summary of the mess we are now in with rapid shut down MLPE. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWUoZg53o80&t=879s --- Brett Stigile Owner/Renewable Energy Electrician 503-317-7950 brett at oregonsunwrangler.com Oregon Sun Wrangler LLC CCB: 240661 License No: 66LRT NABCEP PV Installation Professional certification # PV 100414-008123 On 2025-02-14 18:27, Brett Stigile wrote: > I'm enjoying the discussion on MLPE failures and wondering how do we > move forward away from them. I've seen some info on UL3741 that might > offer the industry a way around or out of using these devices. I've > heard UL3741 has good traction in the commercial space but what about > residential? > > There is a YouTube channel by "derek the solarboi" @dereksolarboi who > talks about the problem and potential solution/exit strategy with a UL > listing. Curious if people are following this and think we might be > able to get away from adding MLPE soon. > > thanks From ray at solarray.com Mon Feb 17 13:24:25 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 14:24:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A8D5DBE-3823-4CF8-8714-F3FA302B446B@solarray.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Mon Feb 17 13:26:04 2025 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 11:26:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I read the wrenches post regularly, as does Brian Mehalic. We have both been on CMP-4 (responsible for Article 690) for the past three code cycles. I believe a few other CMP members probably read too. The International Association of Firefighters ("largest and most influential labor unions in North America") is represented on CMP-4 and yes they do have had a lot to say about this issue. This is definitely not the first time we have heard that certain RS devices are on balance causing more trouble than they are curing - though on the other hand some manufacturers have certainly figured out how to make safe and effective MLPE. I'm a big fan of UL3741, I have been on that UL technical committee for about 5 years, and it is the best approach I see to expand both off-grid and grid-interactive solutions that don't require MLPE for RS. SMA for example is very present and working hard at revisions on that standard right now. At this point I can't see us having any luck in removing 690.12 requirements, except perhaps to replace the inside the array boundary voltage limit with only option as 3741 listing). So please keep asking manufacturers (inverter/rack) to pay attention to UL3741 and design products to meet the standard. Best Rebekah Licensed Electrical Contractor NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 Tel: 336.266.8800 On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 10:59 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Seems like there has been talk of rescinding RSD requirements before on > this forum. It also seems that it might gain some traction if a dedicated > group of installers spoke up to the right people (Code Making Panel for > instance) and put some time into it. I agree that at the very least we > need reliable RSD equipment, and my preference would be less vs more. > > Does anybody know if any sort of RSD is being required in Europe (not that > we follow their electrical codes/ideas…just curious)??? > > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > > On Feb 17, 2025, at 12:30 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > It seems anecdotal until it happens to you. > My mention of civil disobedience has been answered clearly with a “No” > in this forum, and I'm fine to hear that. > I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly think RSD has been a > huge and costly mistake. I genuinely think RSD requirements should be > terminated immediately. If the technology were more robust and if it worked > consistently I wouldn't protest. But *all* the products I've tried have > been trouble. > William, respectfully your analogy to seat belts is not an appropriate > comparison to Rapid Shutdown. Seat-belts were required in all new cars > starting in 1968 because there was statistical evidence supporting their > tremendous efficacy in saving human life. Currently seat belts save about > 15,000 lives per year. > Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because of the following paranoid > fairytale scenario - “A firefighter is on a burning solar roof in the > daytime, and wearing a metal axe at their hip. the poor guy/gal falls into > live solar glass, and shatters it. The fall is so forceful that the > heavy-duty fireman’s suit is punctured. Electricity conducts through the > axe blade, through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC circuit is > completed through their body.” > As far as I know, this has never happened once anywhere on earth. Let’s > be honest - this scenario has an incredibly low chance of ever happening in > all the future of humanity. So considering that RSD has never helped anyone > yet, and probably never will... How many fires can be attributed to RSD? > How much property damage has occurred because of these fires? > The best path to safety for firefighters is by preventing fire > disasters in the first place. Fires spread. Any fire that happens > endangers property owners, tenants, business owners, neighbors, shoppers, > bystanders, nearby forests, etc. RSD manufacturers aren't doing a good job > right now, so we are seeing low quality unreliable electronics on the roof. > I will stick my neck out and admit that installers are not always perfect. > Humans make mistakes - sometimes in initial construction, and sometimes > during repair and maintenance (i.e. when hunting down failed RSD's which > happens far more than it should). > At this time, these devices are not being designed to withstand > reality. When problems happen, manufacturers are quibbling. They ignore you > until you go away, or until you sue them. > This level of "safety" is not important, and in fact RSD is causing > fires every year. > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller > wrote: > >> David, Ray: >> >> >> I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS equipment I have installed >> and I have had minimal problems with optimizers and micro-inverters (which >> are also RSS equipment). Apparently others have had failures. We don’t >> know statically how serious this problem is—the posts here are purely >> anecdotal. >> >> >> We also have not heard from the other side of the debate: the fire >> fighters. >> >> >> Based on lack of verifiable information I can not personally conclude >> that RSS is all problem and no benefit. >> >> >> To declare that the concept is flawed because the equipment available is >> not reliable is like saying we should not be required to install airbags >> because a bad batch of them was manufactured. We are seeing problems with >> the equipment needed to implement a safety requirement. That observation >> does not logically conclude the safety requirement is not valuable. >> >> >> I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out of hand. Safety systems >> are designed to save lives and protect from injury, and most of them do. I >> am glad to have anti-lock brakes, smoke detectors and air bags. I have >> also found it quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to work more safely >> on solar circuits. >> >> >> Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts in the fire-response >> community that can comment on the their side of the issue? If RSD is >> really necessary for safety, then I will do my best to install good >> equipment properly and hold manufacturers accountable for shoddy >> solutions. If RSD is not that effective we need to discuss undoing the >> code requirements. >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *david quattro via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* david quattro >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience >> >> >> RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil >> disobedience? >> >> I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and >> refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the >> bullshit in the aftermath. >> >> I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: >> Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad >> RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to >> comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the >> rest of your career? >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of >> equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. >> Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire >> fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack >> through the array to vent the roof? >> >> I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the >> roof with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their >> venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another >> effort to block the wider adoption of solar. >> >> When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to >> amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, >> water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our >> customers' lives better. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Mon Feb 17 14:20:52 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 11:20:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge refusing their bad inverters Message-ID: Today I learned that Solaredge will not accept responsibility for the E-Waste they generate. They refuse to reimburse installers who are stuck with it. In my experience SolarEdge has a very high failure rate. My local e-waste facility doesn't accept solar inverters. -- David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: solaredge garbage.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42672 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Mon Feb 17 14:38:19 2025 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 19:38:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge refusing their bad inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is an unfortunate side effect from living in California. With a little bit of disassembly all be it not much, in most states the scrap yards will pay for E-waste. Pieter Huebner Project Manager Off Grid Enterprises ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of david quattro via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, February 17, 2025 1:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: david quattro Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge refusing their bad inverters Today I learned that Solaredge will not accept responsibility for the E-Waste they generate. They refuse to reimburse installers who are stuck with it. In my experience SolarEdge has a very high failure rate. My local e-waste facility doesn't accept solar inverters. -- David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4w3uptWgoFu9erHS2Wpd1bR_lg3JWZpKHeiiy0VckWXYO6fcsE9mNjopSk1F2TrvwKA04_R1gVpiiwKqjQrFwF3ScdsrLjC3ceeTkdFqCkm-NE] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Feb 17 16:07:40 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 13:07:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge refusing their bad inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Just wait till some of these start ups that are now gone have battery failures, already happening and when we got to pay per pound to do what ever is best, yup on our dime. Fun times. On Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 11:39 AM pieter offgridenterprises.org via RE-wrenches wrote: > That is an unfortunate side effect from living in California. With a > little bit of disassembly all be it not much, in most states the scrap > yards will pay for E-waste. > Pieter Huebner > Project Manager > Off Grid Enterprises > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of david quattro via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, February 17, 2025 1:20 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* david quattro > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge refusing their bad inverters > > Today I learned that Solaredge will not accept responsibility for the > E-Waste they generate. > They refuse to reimburse installers who are stuck with it. In my > experience SolarEdge has a very high failure rate. > My local e-waste facility doesn't accept solar inverters. > -- > > David Quattro > CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 > ph (415) 312-2661 > www.quattrosolar.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Feb 17 16:20:14 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 13:20:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, l have both single and 3 phase residential systems over a 100 k and we used the largest SMA's available and now 15 years later they are starting to fail so fewer bigger more efficient inverters are a plus. Now with PG&E NEM 3.0 Batteries are the only way to store and use later, and then throw in the elimination of N.G. in California heat pumps are it and along with electric ranges both at a big demand of the system, 25 k is a good starting point. Fun times, On Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 10:07 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > 400a residential service, all electric, 2 full 200a panels worth of loads, > customer wants whole house backup...we want to design it for reliability. > > > > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 9:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Why is there a need for more than 25KW for residential please? Just >> curious. In Nevada, 25KW is way into commercial. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2025-02-17 9:43 am, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Greetings wrenches, >> In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with >> regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings higher >> than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw residential >> limit, net metering applications are being rejected based on the inverter >> rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to handle the >> customer's existing loads and will never export more than the 25kw limit >> dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to Energy Trust, the state, >> etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had this problem or come up with a >> solution. I would appreciate to hear any experiences or similar >> interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this has worked in other >> jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is greatly appreciated. >> >> Tyrone Houck >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >> 541-787-1366 >> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Feb 17 16:24:54 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 16:24:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <65fb0dac-0039-4304-9ea2-a14bea00bab9@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 17 19:14:07 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 16:14:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: <65fb0dac-0039-4304-9ea2-a14bea00bab9@email.android.com> References: <65fb0dac-0039-4304-9ea2-a14bea00bab9@email.android.com> Message-ID: Get the offgrid permit (PRETTY RARE) and then remove anything that makes the system less reliable. We use to be concerned with losing insurance offgrid but the cost is so high now that we (offgrid folks) often self insure. Do anything that can make it easier for a fire crew, if they stay. They often leave after you do. Nothing like coming home from a trip and having spoiled food or worse. Pretty cynical from electronics and people doing dumb things! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [4]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [5] [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-02-17 1:24 pm, Glenn via RE-wrenches wrote: > Too much 'fear over facts'. > > -Glenn > > On Feb 17, 2025 13:26, Rebekah Hren via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I read the wrenches post regularly, as does Brian Mehalic. We have both > been on CMP-4 (responsible for Article 690) for the past three code > cycles. I believe a few other CMP members probably read too. The > International Association of Firefighters ("largest and most > influential labor unions in North America") is represented on CMP-4 and > yes they do have had a lot to say about this issue. > > This is definitely not the first time we have heard that certain RS > devices are on balance causing more trouble than they are curing - > though on the other hand some manufacturers have certainly figured out > how to make safe and effective MLPE. > > I'm a big fan of UL3741, I have been on that UL technical committee for > about 5 years, and it is the best approach I see to expand both > off-grid and grid-interactive solutions that don't require MLPE for RS. > SMA for example is very present and working hard at revisions on that > standard right now. At this point I can't see us having any luck in > removing 690.12 requirements, except perhaps to replace the inside the > array boundary voltage limit with only option as 3741 listing). So > please keep asking manufacturers (inverter/rack) to pay attention to > UL3741 and design products to meet the standard. > > Best > Rebekah > > Licensed Electrical Contractor > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional(tm) 091209-85 > > Tel: 336.266.8800 > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 10:59 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Seems like there has been talk of rescinding RSD requirements before on > this forum. It also seems that it might gain some traction if a > dedicated group of installers spoke up to the right people (Code Making > Panel for instance) and put some time into it. I agree that at the > very least we need reliable RSD equipment, and my preference would be > less vs more. > > Does anybody know if any sort of RSD is being required in Europe (not > that we follow their electrical codes/ideas...just curious)??? > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com [1] > Facebook [2] > > On Feb 17, 2025, at 12:30 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > It seems anecdotal until it happens to you. > My mention of civil disobedience has been answered clearly with a "No" > in this forum, and I'm fine to hear that. > I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly think RSD has been a > huge and costly mistake. I genuinely think RSD requirements should be > terminated immediately. If the technology were more robust and if it > worked consistently I wouldn't protest. But all the products I've tried > have been trouble. > William, respectfully your analogy to seat belts is not an appropriate > comparison to Rapid Shutdown. Seat-belts were required in all new cars > starting in 1968 because there was statistical evidence supporting > their tremendous efficacy in saving human life. Currently seat belts > save about 15,000 lives per year. > Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because of the following paranoid > fairytale scenario - "A firefighter is on a burning solar roof in the > daytime, and wearing a metal axe at their hip. the poor guy/gal falls > into live solar glass, and shatters it. The fall is so forceful that > the heavy-duty fireman's suit is punctured. Electricity conducts > through the axe blade, through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC > circuit is completed through their body." > As far as I know, this has never happened once anywhere on earth. Let's > be honest - this scenario has an incredibly low chance of ever > happening in all the future of humanity. So considering that RSD has > never helped anyone yet, and probably never will... How many fires can > be attributed to RSD? How much property damage has occurred because of > these fires? > The best path to safety for firefighters is by preventing fire > disasters in the first place. Fires spread. Any fire that happens > endangers property owners, tenants, business owners, neighbors, > shoppers, bystanders, nearby forests, etc. RSD manufacturers aren't > doing a good job right now, so we are seeing low quality unreliable > electronics on the roof. I will stick my neck out and admit that > installers are not always perfect. Humans make mistakes - sometimes in > initial construction, and sometimes during repair and maintenance (i.e. > when hunting down failed RSD's which happens far more than it should). > At this time, these devices are not being designed to withstand > reality. When problems happen, manufacturers are quibbling. They ignore > you until you go away, or until you sue them. > This level of "safety" is not important, and in fact RSD is causing > fires every year. > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller > wrote: > > David, Ray: > > I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS equipment I have > installed and I have had minimal problems with optimizers and > micro-inverters (which are also RSS equipment). Apparently others have > had failures. We don't know statically how serious this problem > is--the posts here are purely anecdotal. > > We also have not heard from the other side of the debate: the fire > fighters. > > Based on lack of verifiable information I can not personally conclude > that RSS is all problem and no benefit. > > To declare that the concept is flawed because the equipment available > is not reliable is like saying we should not be required to install > airbags because a bad batch of them was manufactured. We are seeing > problems with the equipment needed to implement a safety requirement. > That observation does not logically conclude the safety requirement is > not valuable. > > I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out of hand. Safety > systems are designed to save lives and protect from injury, and most of > them do. I am glad to have anti-lock brakes, smoke detectors and air > bags. I have also found it quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to > work more safely on solar circuits. > > Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts in the fire-response > community that can comment on the their side of the issue? If RSD is > really necessary for safety, then I will do my best to install good > equipment properly and hold manufacturers accountable for shoddy > solutions. If RSD is not that effective we need to discuss undoing the > code requirements. > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [3] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of david quattro via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: david quattro > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience > > RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil > disobedience? > > I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and > refused, as a united industry 'brotherhood.' WE are the ones stuck with > the bullshit in the aftermath. > > I'm not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: > Does anyone have good experience with RSD? i.e. you're really glad > RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you're glad and happy to > comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for > the rest of your career? > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of > equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the > roof. Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? > How many fire fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that > they could hack through the array to vent the roof? > > I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the > roof with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do > their venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just > another effort to block the wider adoption of solar. > > When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to > amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, > water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our > customers' lives better. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.ienergyvt.com [2] https://www.facebook.com/integrityenergyllp?ref=hl [3] http://www.millersolar.com/ [4] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Feb 17 23:40:06 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 20:40:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0a4eb7bf4ef29ae43f55034e0bf40378@mail.gmail.com> Rebekah: Thank you for your post. I have looked at UL3741 over and over. Here is what I have gleaned: After module level RSS was mandated there was a reevaluation of what voltages were actually dangerous for firefighters to be exposed to. It turns out 80 VDC is not dangerous and, given all of the circumstances for firefighters, exposure to voltages that are much higher is safe enough. For some reason I have not yet grasped, all of the components need to be matched and tested to achieve the hallowed UL3741 rating. Module level RSS would have presented a big enough upheaval in the industry if the equipment needed to comply was safe and reliable. There is evidence that in many cases it may not be, and that amplifies the skepticism many feel about the current solutions, and frankly, any future solutions. It appears the code making panel, when writing the original module level RSS requirements, may have been a bit “chicken little” about the need for RSS. This presents a real credibility issue for code makers. You are seeing that credibility problem reflected in the discussions here on this forum. Given the back-peddling, how can we understand and believe what is really necessary? Forgive me for being skeptical, but why is it that systems with components that have been tested together are demonstrably safer than any collection of high quality components installed carefully and competently? In my mind there is another disconnect here (pun intended): I can put high voltage, arc producing and sustaining wiring on a residential roof or free-standing rack and not be required to protect that wiring in any specific manner. If I were to install a 240VAC, over-current protected and de-energizeable air conditioning feeder without conduit, I would be red-tagged in a hot second. It may be that fire-fighters in protective clothing can withstand voltage above 80VDC, but can children not wearing protective “turn-out” clothing? Children mess around on roofs and underneath ground-mount arrays. Why is the NEC not protecting them by mandating specific, listed and tested wire management and guarding systems? Thank you very much and I look forward to your reply. Sincerely, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Monday, February 17, 2025 10:26 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Rebekah Hren *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? I read the wrenches post regularly, as does Brian Mehalic. We have both been on CMP-4 (responsible for Article 690) for the past three code cycles. I believe a few other CMP members probably read too. The International Association of Firefighters ("largest and most influential labor unions in North America") is represented on CMP-4 and yes they do have had a lot to say about this issue. This is definitely not the first time we have heard that certain RS devices are on balance causing more trouble than they are curing - though on the other hand some manufacturers have certainly figured out how to make safe and effective MLPE. I'm a big fan of UL3741, I have been on that UL technical committee for about 5 years, and it is the best approach I see to expand both off-grid and grid-interactive solutions that don't require MLPE for RS. SMA for example is very present and working hard at revisions on that standard right now. At this point I can't see us having any luck in removing 690.12 requirements, except perhaps to replace the inside the array boundary voltage limit with only option as 3741 listing). So please keep asking manufacturers (inverter/rack) to pay attention to UL3741 and design products to meet the standard. Best Rebekah Licensed Electrical Contractor NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 Tel: 336.266.8800 On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 10:59 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Seems like there has been talk of rescinding RSD requirements before on this forum. It also seems that it might gain some traction if a dedicated group of installers spoke up to the right people (Code Making Panel for instance) and put some time into it. I agree that at the very least we need reliable RSD equipment, and my preference would be less vs more. Does anybody know if any sort of RSD is being required in Europe (not that we follow their electrical codes/ideas…just curious)??? Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook On Feb 17, 2025, at 12:30 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: It seems anecdotal until it happens to you. My mention of civil disobedience has been answered clearly with a “No” in this forum, and I'm fine to hear that. I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly think RSD has been a huge and costly mistake. I genuinely think RSD requirements should be terminated immediately. If the technology were more robust and if it worked consistently I wouldn't protest. But *all* the products I've tried have been trouble. William, respectfully your analogy to seat belts is not an appropriate comparison to Rapid Shutdown. Seat-belts were required in all new cars starting in 1968 because there was statistical evidence supporting their tremendous efficacy in saving human life. Currently seat belts save about 15,000 lives per year. Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because of the following paranoid fairytale scenario - “A firefighter is on a burning solar roof in the daytime, and wearing a metal axe at their hip. the poor guy/gal falls into live solar glass, and shatters it. The fall is so forceful that the heavy-duty fireman’s suit is punctured. Electricity conducts through the axe blade, through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC circuit is completed through their body.” As far as I know, this has never happened once anywhere on earth. Let’s be honest - this scenario has an incredibly low chance of ever happening in all the future of humanity. So considering that RSD has never helped anyone yet, and probably never will... How many fires can be attributed to RSD? How much property damage has occurred because of these fires? The best path to safety for firefighters is by preventing fire disasters in the first place. Fires spread. Any fire that happens endangers property owners, tenants, business owners, neighbors, shoppers, bystanders, nearby forests, etc. RSD manufacturers aren't doing a good job right now, so we are seeing low quality unreliable electronics on the roof. I will stick my neck out and admit that installers are not always perfect. Humans make mistakes - sometimes in initial construction, and sometimes during repair and maintenance (i.e. when hunting down failed RSD's which happens far more than it should). At this time, these devices are not being designed to withstand reality. When problems happen, manufacturers are quibbling. They ignore you until you go away, or until you sue them. This level of "safety" is not important, and in fact RSD is causing fires every year. On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller wrote: David, Ray: I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS equipment I have installed and I have had minimal problems with optimizers and micro-inverters (which are also RSS equipment). Apparently others have had failures. We don’t know statically how serious this problem is—the posts here are purely anecdotal. We also have not heard from the other side of the debate: the fire fighters. Based on lack of verifiable information I can not personally conclude that RSS is all problem and no benefit. To declare that the concept is flawed because the equipment available is not reliable is like saying we should not be required to install airbags because a bad batch of them was manufactured. We are seeing problems with the equipment needed to implement a safety requirement. That observation does not logically conclude the safety requirement is not valuable. I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out of hand. Safety systems are designed to save lives and protect from injury, and most of them do. I am glad to have anti-lock brakes, smoke detectors and air bags. I have also found it quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to work more safely on solar circuits. Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts in the fire-response community that can comment on the their side of the issue? If RSD is really necessary for safety, then I will do my best to install good equipment properly and hold manufacturers accountable for shoddy solutions. If RSD is not that effective we need to discuss undoing the code requirements. Sincerely, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *david quattro via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* david quattro *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil disobedience? I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the bullshit in the aftermath. I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the rest of your career? On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack through the array to vent the roof? I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the roof with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another effort to block the wider adoption of solar. When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our customers' lives better. Ray Walters Remote Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Mon Feb 17 23:58:35 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 20:58:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: <0a4eb7bf4ef29ae43f55034e0bf40378@mail.gmail.com> References: <0a4eb7bf4ef29ae43f55034e0bf40378@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: As far as ground mounted arrays are concerned there is one clear protection mandated by the NEC-the requirement for protection from physical damage for all conductors under 8'.. although this isn't as specific or redundant as rapid shutdown requirements, it typically means conduit or at least some kind of physical barrier with the intention often referenced as protection for children or other unqualified personnel. Not sure if that fits into the point you were making but it seems worth mentioning. Sunny Regards, Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 8:42 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Rebekah: > > > > Thank you for your post. > > > > I have looked at UL3741 over and over. Here is what I have gleaned: > After module level RSS was mandated there was a reevaluation of what > voltages were actually dangerous for firefighters to be exposed to. It > turns out 80 VDC is not dangerous and, given all of the circumstances for > firefighters, exposure to voltages that are much higher is safe enough. > For some reason I have not yet grasped, all of the components need to be > matched and tested to achieve the hallowed UL3741 rating. > > > > Module level RSS would have presented a big enough upheaval in the > industry if the equipment needed to comply was safe and reliable. There is > evidence that in many cases it may not be, and that amplifies the > skepticism many feel about the current solutions, and frankly, any future > solutions. > > > > It appears the code making panel, when writing the original module level > RSS requirements, may have been a bit “chicken little” about the need for > RSS. This presents a real credibility issue for code makers. You are > seeing that credibility problem reflected in the discussions here on this > forum. Given the back-peddling, how can we understand and believe what is > really necessary? > > > > Forgive me for being skeptical, but why is it that systems with components > that have been tested together are demonstrably safer than any collection > of high quality components installed carefully and competently? > > > > In my mind there is another disconnect here (pun intended): I can put > high voltage, arc producing and sustaining wiring on a residential roof or > free-standing rack and not be required to protect that wiring in any > specific manner. If I were to install a 240VAC, over-current protected and > de-energizeable air conditioning feeder without conduit, I would be > red-tagged in a hot second. It may be that fire-fighters in protective > clothing can withstand voltage above 80VDC, but can children not wearing > protective “turn-out” clothing? Children mess around on roofs and > underneath ground-mount arrays. Why is the NEC not protecting them by > mandating specific, listed and tested wire management and guarding systems? > > > > Thank you very much and I look forward to your reply. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, February 17, 2025 10:26 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Rebekah Hren > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? > > > > I read the wrenches post regularly, as does Brian Mehalic. We have both > been on CMP-4 (responsible for Article 690) for the past three code > cycles. I believe a few other CMP members probably read too. The > International Association of Firefighters ("largest and most influential > labor unions in North America") is represented on CMP-4 and yes they do > have had a lot to say about this issue. > > > > This is definitely not the first time we have heard that certain RS > devices are on balance causing more trouble than they are curing - though > on the other hand some manufacturers have certainly figured out how to make > safe and effective MLPE. > > > I'm a big fan of UL3741, I have been on that UL technical committee for > about 5 years, and it is the best approach I see to expand both off-grid > and grid-interactive solutions that don't require MLPE for RS. SMA for > example is very present and working hard at revisions on that standard > right now. At this point I can't see us having any luck in removing 690.12 > requirements, except perhaps to replace the inside the array boundary > voltage limit with only option as 3741 listing). So please keep asking > manufacturers (inverter/rack) to pay attention to UL3741 and design > products to meet the standard. > > > > Best > > Rebekah > > Licensed Electrical Contractor > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > > Tel: 336.266.8800 > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 10:59 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Seems like there has been talk of rescinding RSD requirements before on > this forum. It also seems that it might gain some traction if a dedicated > group of installers spoke up to the right people (Code Making Panel for > instance) and put some time into it. I agree that at the very least we > need reliable RSD equipment, and my preference would be less vs more. > > > > Does anybody know if any sort of RSD is being required in Europe (not that > we follow their electrical codes/ideas…just curious)??? > > > > > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > > Facebook > > > > On Feb 17, 2025, at 12:30 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > It seems anecdotal until it happens to you. > > My mention of civil disobedience has been answered clearly with a “No” > in this forum, and I'm fine to hear that. > > I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly think RSD has been a > huge and costly mistake. I genuinely think RSD requirements should be > terminated immediately. If the technology were more robust and if it worked > consistently I wouldn't protest. But *all* the products I've tried have > been trouble. > > William, respectfully your analogy to seat belts is not an appropriate > comparison to Rapid Shutdown. Seat-belts were required in all new cars > starting in 1968 because there was statistical evidence supporting their > tremendous efficacy in saving human life. Currently seat belts save about > 15,000 lives per year. > > Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because of the following paranoid > fairytale scenario - “A firefighter is on a burning solar roof in the > daytime, and wearing a metal axe at their hip. the poor guy/gal falls into > live solar glass, and shatters it. The fall is so forceful that the > heavy-duty fireman’s suit is punctured. Electricity conducts through the > axe blade, through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC circuit is > completed through their body.” > > As far as I know, this has never happened once anywhere on earth. Let’s > be honest - this scenario has an incredibly low chance of ever happening in > all the future of humanity. So considering that RSD has never helped anyone > yet, and probably never will... How many fires can be attributed to RSD? > How much property damage has occurred because of these fires? > > The best path to safety for firefighters is by preventing fire > disasters in the first place. Fires spread. Any fire that happens > endangers property owners, tenants, business owners, neighbors, shoppers, > bystanders, nearby forests, etc. RSD manufacturers aren't doing a good job > right now, so we are seeing low quality unreliable electronics on the roof. > I will stick my neck out and admit that installers are not always perfect. > Humans make mistakes - sometimes in initial construction, and sometimes > during repair and maintenance (i.e. when hunting down failed RSD's which > happens far more than it should). > > At this time, these devices are not being designed to withstand > reality. When problems happen, manufacturers are quibbling. They ignore you > until you go away, or until you sue them. > > This level of "safety" is not important, and in fact RSD is causing > fires every year. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller > wrote: > > David, Ray: > > > > I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS equipment I have installed > and I have had minimal problems with optimizers and micro-inverters (which > are also RSS equipment). Apparently others have had failures. We don’t > know statically how serious this problem is—the posts here are purely > anecdotal. > > > > We also have not heard from the other side of the debate: the fire > fighters. > > > > Based on lack of verifiable information I can not personally conclude that > RSS is all problem and no benefit. > > > > To declare that the concept is flawed because the equipment available is > not reliable is like saying we should not be required to install airbags > because a bad batch of them was manufactured. We are seeing problems with > the equipment needed to implement a safety requirement. That observation > does not logically conclude the safety requirement is not valuable. > > > > I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out of hand. Safety systems > are designed to save lives and protect from injury, and most of them do. I > am glad to have anti-lock brakes, smoke detectors and air bags. I have > also found it quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to work more safely > on solar circuits. > > > > Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts in the fire-response > community that can comment on the their side of the issue? If RSD is > really necessary for safety, then I will do my best to install good > equipment properly and hold manufacturers accountable for shoddy > solutions. If RSD is not that effective we need to discuss undoing the > code requirements. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *david quattro via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* david quattro > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience > > > > RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil > disobedience? > > I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and > refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the > bullshit in the aftermath. > > I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: > Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad > RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to > comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the > rest of your career? > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of > equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. > Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire > fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack > through the array to vent the roof? > > I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the roof > with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their > venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another > effort to block the wider adoption of solar. > > When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to > amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, > water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our > customers' lives better. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Feb 18 00:13:10 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 21:13:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Why are RSD devices burning up? Message-ID: <97bfc378124df4f8a2018f436bc2f737@mail.gmail.com> Wrenches: I came across this U-tube video that I think is relevant: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Lyfdr1AWzU4 A factor that aggravates the arc producing and sustaining characteristics of solar circuits is the nature of the IV curve. One can short solar circuits and create a zero volts situation. Once that short first opens, the voltage climbs quickly, sustaining the arc even more than the video demonstrates. I think we all need to remember this concept when considering our designs and installations. It seems to me that the fiery RSD failures that have been described here are more than likely due to the RSD devices opening PV circuits under load. This is like disconnecting MC connectors under load. An arc will be created and is likely to sustain for some time. If we could contrive systems that removed the load from PV circuits just prior to RSD activation this problem might be resolved. It may not be that difficult to achieve this. In theory, if the RSS system first disconnected the AC feeder to the inverter and then after a short delay the RSS activated, the RSS devices would not be opening under load. In its most crude form a contactor on the AC circuit would be opened by the RSS initiation device and then shortly thereafter the PV RSDs could open without arcing. I have often thought that PV inverters should have an “inhibit” circuit that, with the opening of a low voltage contact, the inverter would shut down. Many power electronics have this feature. FXR inverters have this. The inhibit function could be used to take the load off of PV circuits prior to rapid shut down. Also, the inhibit function could be used to protect batteries in AC coupled systems without the need for high amperage AC contactors. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Feb 18 00:25:20 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2025 21:25:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: References: <0a4eb7bf4ef29ae43f55034e0bf40378@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Tyrone: You raise an excellent point. Wire guarding is required on ground mount arrays , although the language is vague and the industry does not provide many hardware solutions. Also, in our area the enforcement of the code on this practice is non-existent. I suspect this is true in many regions. Improvements need to be made. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Tyrone Houck [mailto:tyronehouck at gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, February 17, 2025 8:59 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? As far as ground mounted arrays are concerned there is one clear protection mandated by the NEC-the requirement for protection from physical damage for all conductors under 8'.. although this isn't as specific or redundant as rapid shutdown requirements, it typically means conduit or at least some kind of physical barrier with the intention often referenced as protection for children or other unqualified personnel. Not sure if that fits into the point you were making but it seems worth mentioning. Sunny Regards, Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 8:42 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Rebekah: Thank you for your post. I have looked at UL3741 over and over. Here is what I have gleaned: After module level RSS was mandated there was a reevaluation of what voltages were actually dangerous for firefighters to be exposed to. It turns out 80 VDC is not dangerous and, given all of the circumstances for firefighters, exposure to voltages that are much higher is safe enough. For some reason I have not yet grasped, all of the components need to be matched and tested to achieve the hallowed UL3741 rating. Module level RSS would have presented a big enough upheaval in the industry if the equipment needed to comply was safe and reliable. There is evidence that in many cases it may not be, and that amplifies the skepticism many feel about the current solutions, and frankly, any future solutions. It appears the code making panel, when writing the original module level RSS requirements, may have been a bit “chicken little” about the need for RSS. This presents a real credibility issue for code makers. You are seeing that credibility problem reflected in the discussions here on this forum. Given the back-peddling, how can we understand and believe what is really necessary? Forgive me for being skeptical, but why is it that systems with components that have been tested together are demonstrably safer than any collection of high quality components installed carefully and competently? In my mind there is another disconnect here (pun intended): I can put high voltage, arc producing and sustaining wiring on a residential roof or free-standing rack and not be required to protect that wiring in any specific manner. If I were to install a 240VAC, over-current protected and de-energizeable air conditioning feeder without conduit, I would be red-tagged in a hot second. It may be that fire-fighters in protective clothing can withstand voltage above 80VDC, but can children not wearing protective “turn-out” clothing? Children mess around on roofs and underneath ground-mount arrays. Why is the NEC not protecting them by mandating specific, listed and tested wire management and guarding systems? Thank you very much and I look forward to your reply. Sincerely, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Monday, February 17, 2025 10:26 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Rebekah Hren *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? I read the wrenches post regularly, as does Brian Mehalic. We have both been on CMP-4 (responsible for Article 690) for the past three code cycles. I believe a few other CMP members probably read too. The International Association of Firefighters ("largest and most influential labor unions in North America") is represented on CMP-4 and yes they do have had a lot to say about this issue. This is definitely not the first time we have heard that certain RS devices are on balance causing more trouble than they are curing - though on the other hand some manufacturers have certainly figured out how to make safe and effective MLPE. I'm a big fan of UL3741, I have been on that UL technical committee for about 5 years, and it is the best approach I see to expand both off-grid and grid-interactive solutions that don't require MLPE for RS. SMA for example is very present and working hard at revisions on that standard right now. At this point I can't see us having any luck in removing 690.12 requirements, except perhaps to replace the inside the array boundary voltage limit with only option as 3741 listing). So please keep asking manufacturers (inverter/rack) to pay attention to UL3741 and design products to meet the standard. Best Rebekah Licensed Electrical Contractor NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 Tel: 336.266.8800 On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 10:59 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Seems like there has been talk of rescinding RSD requirements before on this forum. It also seems that it might gain some traction if a dedicated group of installers spoke up to the right people (Code Making Panel for instance) and put some time into it. I agree that at the very least we need reliable RSD equipment, and my preference would be less vs more. Does anybody know if any sort of RSD is being required in Europe (not that we follow their electrical codes/ideas…just curious)??? Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook On Feb 17, 2025, at 12:30 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: It seems anecdotal until it happens to you. My mention of civil disobedience has been answered clearly with a “No” in this forum, and I'm fine to hear that. I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly think RSD has been a huge and costly mistake. I genuinely think RSD requirements should be terminated immediately. If the technology were more robust and if it worked consistently I wouldn't protest. But *all* the products I've tried have been trouble. William, respectfully your analogy to seat belts is not an appropriate comparison to Rapid Shutdown. Seat-belts were required in all new cars starting in 1968 because there was statistical evidence supporting their tremendous efficacy in saving human life. Currently seat belts save about 15,000 lives per year. Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because of the following paranoid fairytale scenario - “A firefighter is on a burning solar roof in the daytime, and wearing a metal axe at their hip. the poor guy/gal falls into live solar glass, and shatters it. The fall is so forceful that the heavy-duty fireman’s suit is punctured. Electricity conducts through the axe blade, through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC circuit is completed through their body.” As far as I know, this has never happened once anywhere on earth. Let’s be honest - this scenario has an incredibly low chance of ever happening in all the future of humanity. So considering that RSD has never helped anyone yet, and probably never will... How many fires can be attributed to RSD? How much property damage has occurred because of these fires? The best path to safety for firefighters is by preventing fire disasters in the first place. Fires spread. Any fire that happens endangers property owners, tenants, business owners, neighbors, shoppers, bystanders, nearby forests, etc. RSD manufacturers aren't doing a good job right now, so we are seeing low quality unreliable electronics on the roof. I will stick my neck out and admit that installers are not always perfect. Humans make mistakes - sometimes in initial construction, and sometimes during repair and maintenance (i.e. when hunting down failed RSD's which happens far more than it should). At this time, these devices are not being designed to withstand reality. When problems happen, manufacturers are quibbling. They ignore you until you go away, or until you sue them. This level of "safety" is not important, and in fact RSD is causing fires every year. On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller wrote: David, Ray: I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS equipment I have installed and I have had minimal problems with optimizers and micro-inverters (which are also RSS equipment). Apparently others have had failures. We don’t know statically how serious this problem is—the posts here are purely anecdotal. We also have not heard from the other side of the debate: the fire fighters. Based on lack of verifiable information I can not personally conclude that RSS is all problem and no benefit. To declare that the concept is flawed because the equipment available is not reliable is like saying we should not be required to install airbags because a bad batch of them was manufactured. We are seeing problems with the equipment needed to implement a safety requirement. That observation does not logically conclude the safety requirement is not valuable. I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out of hand. Safety systems are designed to save lives and protect from injury, and most of them do. I am glad to have anti-lock brakes, smoke detectors and air bags. I have also found it quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to work more safely on solar circuits. Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts in the fire-response community that can comment on the their side of the issue? If RSD is really necessary for safety, then I will do my best to install good equipment properly and hold manufacturers accountable for shoddy solutions. If RSD is not that effective we need to discuss undoing the code requirements. Sincerely, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *david quattro via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* david quattro *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil disobedience? I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the bullshit in the aftermath. I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the rest of your career? On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack through the array to vent the roof? I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the roof with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another effort to block the wider adoption of solar. When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our customers' lives better. Ray Walters Remote Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Feb 18 07:55:38 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 07:55:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: <65fb0dac-0039-4304-9ea2-a14bea00bab9@email.android.com> References: <65fb0dac-0039-4304-9ea2-a14bea00bab9@email.android.com> Message-ID: More connections on the roof equals more risk. Even the "safer" microinverters are not immune to fire hazards. See attached. Poorly installed field wireable connectors are the main reason for fires on roofs with Enphase systems, in my experience, and I have seen a few. I have seen other contractors "crimping" connectors with linesman pliers it appears upon inspection. Fortunately, most poorly installed field wireables result in a breaker tripping before catastrophe strikes. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 4:25 PM Glenn via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Too much 'fear over facts'. > > > > -Glenn > > On Feb 17, 2025 13:26, Rebekah Hren via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I read the wrenches post regularly, as does Brian Mehalic. We have both > been on CMP-4 (responsible for Article 690) for the past three code > cycles. I believe a few other CMP members probably read too. The > International Association of Firefighters ("largest and most influential > labor unions in North America") is represented on CMP-4 and yes they do > have had a lot to say about this issue. > > This is definitely not the first time we have heard that certain RS > devices are on balance causing more trouble than they are curing - though > on the other hand some manufacturers have certainly figured out how to make > safe and effective MLPE. > > I'm a big fan of UL3741, I have been on that UL technical committee for > about 5 years, and it is the best approach I see to expand both off-grid > and grid-interactive solutions that don't require MLPE for RS. SMA for > example is very present and working hard at revisions on that standard > right now. At this point I can't see us having any luck in removing 690.12 > requirements, except perhaps to replace the inside the array boundary > voltage limit with only option as 3741 listing). So please keep asking > manufacturers (inverter/rack) to pay attention to UL3741 and design > products to meet the standard. > > Best > Rebekah > Licensed Electrical Contractor > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > Tel: 336.266.8800 > > > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 10:59 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Seems like there has been talk of rescinding RSD requirements before on > this forum. It also seems that it might gain some traction if a dedicated > group of installers spoke up to the right people (Code Making Panel for > instance) and put some time into it. I agree that at the very least we > need reliable RSD equipment, and my preference would be less vs more. > > Does anybody know if any sort of RSD is being required in Europe (not that > we follow their electrical codes/ideas…just curious)??? > > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > > On Feb 17, 2025, at 12:30 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > It seems anecdotal until it happens to you. > My mention of civil disobedience has been answered clearly with a “No” > in this forum, and I'm fine to hear that. > I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly think RSD has been a > huge and costly mistake. I genuinely think RSD requirements should be > terminated immediately. If the technology were more robust and if it worked > consistently I wouldn't protest. But *all* the products I've tried have > been trouble. > William, respectfully your analogy to seat belts is not an appropriate > comparison to Rapid Shutdown. Seat-belts were required in all new cars > starting in 1968 because there was statistical evidence supporting their > tremendous efficacy in saving human life. Currently seat belts save about > 15,000 lives per year. > Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because of the following paranoid > fairytale scenario - “A firefighter is on a burning solar roof in the > daytime, and wearing a metal axe at their hip. the poor guy/gal falls into > live solar glass, and shatters it. The fall is so forceful that the > heavy-duty fireman’s suit is punctured. Electricity conducts through the > axe blade, through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC circuit is > completed through their body.” > As far as I know, this has never happened once anywhere on earth. Let’s > be honest - this scenario has an incredibly low chance of ever happening in > all the future of humanity. So considering that RSD has never helped anyone > yet, and probably never will... How many fires can be attributed to RSD? > How much property damage has occurred because of these fires? > The best path to safety for firefighters is by preventing fire > disasters in the first place. Fires spread. Any fire that happens > endangers property owners, tenants, business owners, neighbors, shoppers, > bystanders, nearby forests, etc. RSD manufacturers aren't doing a good job > right now, so we are seeing low quality unreliable electronics on the roof. > I will stick my neck out and admit that installers are not always perfect. > Humans make mistakes - sometimes in initial construction, and sometimes > during repair and maintenance (i.e. when hunting down failed RSD's which > happens far more than it should). > At this time, these devices are not being designed to withstand > reality. When problems happen, manufacturers are quibbling. They ignore you > until you go away, or until you sue them. > This level of "safety" is not important, and in fact RSD is causing > fires every year. > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller > wrote: > > David, Ray: > > > I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS equipment I have installed > and I have had minimal problems with optimizers and micro-inverters (which > are also RSS equipment). Apparently others have had failures. We don’t > know statically how serious this problem is—the posts here are purely > anecdotal. > > > We also have not heard from the other side of the debate: the fire > fighters. > > > Based on lack of verifiable information I can not personally conclude that > RSS is all problem and no benefit. > > > To declare that the concept is flawed because the equipment available is > not reliable is like saying we should not be required to install airbags > because a bad batch of them was manufactured. We are seeing problems with > the equipment needed to implement a safety requirement. That observation > does not logically conclude the safety requirement is not valuable. > > > I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out of hand. Safety systems > are designed to save lives and protect from injury, and most of them do. I > am glad to have anti-lock brakes, smoke detectors and air bags. I have > also found it quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to work more safely > on solar circuits. > > > Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts in the fire-response > community that can comment on the their side of the issue? If RSD is > really necessary for safety, then I will do my best to install good > equipment properly and hold manufacturers accountable for shoddy > solutions. If RSD is not that effective we need to discuss undoing the > code requirements. > > > Sincerely, > > > William Miller > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *david quattro via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* david quattro > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience > > > RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil > disobedience? > > I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and > refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the > bullshit in the aftermath. > > I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: > Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad > RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to > comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the > rest of your career? > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of > equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. > Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire > fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack > through the array to vent the roof? > > I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the roof > with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their > venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another > effort to block the wider adoption of solar. > > When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to > amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, > water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our > customers' lives better. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2451-1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 309278 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2453 (1)-1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 316873 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Feb 18 08:32:45 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 06:32:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Feb 18 10:13:00 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 10:13:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Mistake Message-ID: <5c53e8593fab9654db87c9a5de0fd6ed@redwoodalliance.org> Hi David, RSS is no mistake. The War on Solar is real. Due to a recent computer crash, I am having problems finding my links documenting the intentional attack on PV from the Koch Brothers and the utility industry in general. I will check on another computer that may still have the information. It is at a different location. I went on the Wrench list with my concerns when this was first proposed, until I was told to stop. Individual homeowner solar is viewed as a big problem for utility profits. There are other ways to safeguard firefighters. -- Cheers, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Feb 18 11:05:02 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 11:05:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are many 4,000 sq ft pool homes in my area with electric pool heating and electric everything else where 25kW would just cover the electric bill. Some larger homes around here can definitely require more. Florida Power & Light allows up to 50kW on 120/240V split phase service, but only if expected production does not exceed an estimated 115% of historical annual usage. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 12:58 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Why is there a need for more than 25KW for residential please? Just > curious. In Nevada, 25KW is way into commercial. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-02-17 9:43 am, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Greetings wrenches, > In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with > regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings higher > than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw residential > limit, net metering applications are being rejected based on the inverter > rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to handle the > customer's existing loads and will never export more than the 25kw limit > dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to Energy Trust, the state, > etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had this problem or come up with a > solution. I would appreciate to hear any experiences or similar > interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this has worked in other > jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is greatly appreciated. > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Feb 18 11:23:55 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 11:23:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: References: <0a4eb7bf4ef29ae43f55034e0bf40378@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464146f4-25f2-42d9-a2ce-e9fce6a11ccf@entech-engineering.com> I think the 8' rule for this is a little bizarre. I can have ac circuits lower than 8' all through my basement, attic and so forth, but this barrier requirement for dc conductors that have robust jackets and no exposed live connections has been hard to justify.  Christopher Warfel On 2/18/2025 12:25 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Tyrone: > > You raise an excellent point. Wire guarding is required on ground > mount arrays > , > although the language is vague and the industry does not provide many > hardware solutions.  Also, in our area the enforcement > > of the code on this practice is non-existent.  I suspect this is true > in many regions.  Improvements need to be made. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*Tyrone Houck [mailto:tyronehouck at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Monday, February 17, 2025 8:59 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? > > As far as ground mounted arrays are concerned there is one clear > protection mandated by the NEC-the requirement for protection from > physical damage for all conductors under 8'.. although this isn't as > specific or redundant as rapid shutdown requirements, it typically > means conduit or at least some kind of physical barrier with the > intention often referenced as protection for children or other > unqualified personnel. Not sure if that fits into the point you were > making but it seems worth mentioning. > > Sunny Regards, > > Tyrone Houck > > Oregon Solarworks LLC > > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > > 541-787-1366 > > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 8:42 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Rebekah: > > Thank you for your post. > > I have looked at UL3741 over and over.  Here is what I have > gleaned:  After module level RSS was mandated there was a > reevaluation of what voltages were actually dangerous for > firefighters to be exposed to.  It turns out 80 VDC is not > dangerous and, given all of the circumstances for firefighters, > exposure to voltages that are much higher is safe enough. For some > reason I have not yet grasped, all of the components need to be > matched and tested to achieve the hallowed UL3741 rating. > > Module level RSS would have presented a big enough upheaval in the > industry if the equipment needed to comply was safe and reliable.  > There is evidence that in many cases it may not be, and that > amplifies the skepticism many feel about the current solutions, > and frankly, any future solutions. > > It appears the code making panel, when writing the original module > level RSS requirements, may have been a bit “chicken little” about > the need for RSS. This presents a real credibility issue for code > makers.  You are seeing that credibility problem reflected in the > discussions here on this forum. Given the back-peddling, how can > we understand and believe what is really necessary? > > Forgive me for being skeptical, but why is it that systems with > components that have been tested together are demonstrably safer > than any collection of high quality components installed carefully > and competently? > > In my mind there is another disconnect here (pun intended):  I can > put high voltage, arc producing and sustaining wiring on a > residential roof or free-standing rack and not be required to > protect that wiring in any specific manner.  If I were to install > a 240VAC, over-current protected and de-energizeable air > conditioning feeder without conduit, I would be red-tagged in a > hot second.  It may be that fire-fighters in protective clothing > can withstand voltage above 80VDC, but can children not wearing > protective “turn-out” clothing?  Children mess around on roofs and > underneath ground-mount arrays.  Why is the NEC not protecting > them by mandating specific, listed and tested wire management and > guarding systems? > > Thank you very much and I look forward to your reply. > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of > *Rebekah Hren via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, February 17, 2025 10:26 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Rebekah Hren > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? > > I read the wrenches post regularly, as does Brian Mehalic. We have > both been on CMP-4  (responsible for Article 690) for the past > three code cycles. I believe a few other CMP members probably read > too. The International Association of Firefighters ("largest and > most influential labor unions in North America") is represented on > CMP-4 and yes they do have had a lot to say about this issue. > > This is definitely not the first time we have heard that certain > RS devices are on balance causing more trouble than they are > curing  - though on the other hand some manufacturers have > certainly figured out how to make safe and effective MLPE. > > > I'm a big fan of UL3741, I have been on that UL technical > committee for about 5 years, and it is the best approach I see to > expand both off-grid and grid-interactive solutions that don't > require MLPE for RS. SMA for example is very present and working > hard at revisions on that standard right now. At this point I > can't see us having any luck in removing 690.12 requirements, > except perhaps to replace the inside the array boundary voltage > limit with only option as 3741 listing). So please keep asking > manufacturers (inverter/rack) to pay attention to UL3741 and > design products to meet the standard. > > Best > > Rebekah > > Licensed Electrical Contractor > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > > Tel: 336.266.8800 > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 10:59 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Seems like there has been talk of rescinding RSD requirements > before on this forum.  It also seems that it might gain some > traction if a dedicated group of installers spoke up to the > right people (Code Making Panel for instance) and put some > time into it.   I agree that at the very least we need > reliable RSD equipment, and my preference would be less vs more. > > Does anybody know if any sort of RSD is being required in > Europe (not that we follow their electrical codes/ideas…just > curious)??? > > > >        Amos Post >    Integrity Energy >   W 802.763.7023 >    C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > > Facebook > > On Feb 17, 2025, at 12:30 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > It seems anecdotal until it happens to you. > >     My mention of civil disobedience has been answered clearly > with a “No” in this forum, and I'm fine to hear that. > >    I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly think RSD > has been a huge and costly mistake. I genuinely think RSD > requirements should be terminated immediately. If the > technology were more robust and if it worked consistently I > wouldn't protest. But *all* the products I've tried have been > trouble. > >    William, respectfully your analogy to seat belts is not an > appropriate comparison to Rapid Shutdown. Seat-belts were > required in all new cars starting in 1968 because there was > statistical evidence supporting their tremendous efficacy in > saving human life. Currently seat belts save about 15,000 > lives per year. > > Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because of the following > paranoid fairytale scenario - “A firefighter is on a burning > solar roof in the daytime, and wearing a metal axe at their > hip. the poor guy/gal falls into live solar glass, and > shatters it. The fall is so forceful that the heavy-duty > fireman’s suit is punctured. Electricity conducts through the > axe blade, through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC > circuit is completed through their body.” > >    As far as I know, this has never happened once anywhere on > earth. Let’s be honest - this scenario has an incredibly low > chance of ever happening in all the future of humanity. So > considering that RSD has never helped anyone yet, and probably > never will... How many fires can be attributed to RSD? How > much property damage has occurred because of these fires? > > The best path to safety for firefighters is by preventing fire > disasters in the first place.  Fires spread. Any fire that > happens endangers property owners, tenants, business owners, > neighbors, shoppers, bystanders, nearby forests, etc.  RSD > manufacturers aren't doing a good job right now, so we are > seeing low quality unreliable electronics on the roof. I will > stick my neck out and admit that installers are not always > perfect. Humans make mistakes - sometimes in initial > construction, and sometimes during repair and maintenance > (i.e. when hunting down failed RSD's which happens far more > than it should). > >    At this time, these devices are not being designed to > withstand reality. When problems happen, manufacturers are > quibbling. They ignore you until you go away, or until you sue > them. > >   This level of "safety" is not important, and in fact RSD is > causing fires every year. > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller > wrote: > > David, Ray: > > I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS equipment I > have installed and I have had minimal problems with > optimizers and micro-inverters (which are also RSS > equipment).  Apparently others have had failures.  We > don’t know statically how serious this problem is—the > posts here are purely anecdotal. > > We also have not heard from the other side of the debate: > the fire fighters. > > Based on lack of verifiable information I can not > personally conclude that RSS is all problem and no benefit. > > To declare that the concept is flawed because the > equipment available is not reliable is like saying we > should not be required to install airbags because a bad > batch of them was manufactured.  We are seeing problems > with the equipment needed to implement a safety > requirement.  That observation does not logically conclude > the safety requirement is not valuable. > > I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out of hand. > Safety systems are designed to save lives and protect from > injury, and most of them do. I am glad to have anti-lock > brakes, smoke detectors and air bags.   I have also found > it quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to work more > safely on solar circuits. > > Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts in the > fire-response community that can comment on the their side > of the issue?  If RSD is really necessary for safety, then > I will do my best to install good equipment properly and > hold manufacturers accountable for shoddy solutions.  If > RSD is not that effective we need to discuss undoing the > code requirements. > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *david quattro via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* david quattro > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience > > RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone > considered civil disobedience? > >     I wonder what would happen if all the installers > banded together and refused, as a united industry > ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the bullshit in > the aftermath. > >      I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question > to the group:   Does anyone have _good_ experience with > RSD?   i.e. you’re really glad RSD was there, and you > genuinely feel safer?  you’re glad and happy to comply > with this code and you look forward to continuing to use > RSD for the rest of your career? > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > it seems silly that we are required to install these > extra pieces of equipment for added "safety", that are > actually a fire hazard on the roof.  Just to survey > again: how many homes have been saved by RSD?  How > many fire fighters have actually actuated the RSD > system, so that they could hack through the array to > vent the roof? > > I think it should only be required if you have covered > so much of the roof with PV, that the fire dept can't > access uncovered roof to do their venting.  The whole > premise of RSD is flawed.  IMHO, its just another > effort to block the wider adoption of solar. > > When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease > in reliability to amount to a decrease in safety, due > to possible loss of communications, water, and heat.  > Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our > customers' lives better. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Feb 18 11:32:45 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 11:32:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: <464146f4-25f2-42d9-a2ce-e9fce6a11ccf@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Feb 18 11:33:47 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 11:33:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62f21976-dbfa-47b8-9d18-4b40c66d20e8@entech-engineering.com> Well, I think if wiring of a ground mounted system looks like a jungle gym, then something is wrong. On 2/18/2025 11:32 AM, Glenn wrote: > Rarely are AC electrical circuits and equipment placed adjacent to a > residence in a cleared field where there may be children thinking it > looks like a jungle gym either... > > -Glenn > > On Feb 18, 2025 11:23, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I think the 8' rule for this is a little bizarre. I can have ac > circuits lower than 8' all through my basement, attic and so > forth, but this barrier requirement for dc conductors that have > robust jackets and no exposed live connections has been hard to > justify.  Christopher Warfel > > On 2/18/2025 12:25 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Tyrone: > > You raise an excellent point. Wire guarding is required on > ground mount arrays > , > although the language is vague and the industry does not > provide many hardware solutions.  Also, in our area the > enforcement > > of the code on this practice is non-existent.  I suspect this > is true in many regions.  Improvements need to be made. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*Tyrone Houck [mailto:tyronehouck at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Monday, February 17, 2025 8:59 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? > > As far as ground mounted arrays are concerned there is one > clear protection mandated by the NEC-the requirement for > protection from physical damage for all conductors under 8'.. > although this isn't as specific or redundant as rapid shutdown > requirements, it typically means conduit or at least some kind > of physical barrier with the intention often referenced as > protection for children or other unqualified personnel. Not > sure if that fits into the point you were making but it seems > worth mentioning. > > Sunny Regards, > > Tyrone Houck > > Oregon Solarworks LLC > > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > > 541-787-1366 > > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 8:42 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Rebekah: > > Thank you for your post. > > I have looked at UL3741 over and over.  Here is what I > have gleaned:  After module level RSS was mandated there > was a reevaluation of what voltages were actually > dangerous for firefighters to be exposed to.  It turns out > 80 VDC is not dangerous and, given all of the > circumstances for firefighters, exposure to voltages that > are much higher is safe enough.  For some reason I have > not yet grasped, all of the components need to be matched > and tested to achieve the hallowed UL3741 rating. > > Module level RSS would have presented a big enough > upheaval in the industry if the equipment needed to comply > was safe and reliable. There is evidence that in many > cases it may not be, and that amplifies the skepticism > many feel about the current solutions, and frankly, any > future solutions. > > It appears the code making panel, when writing the > original module level RSS requirements, may have been a > bit “chicken little” about the need for RSS.  This > presents a real credibility issue for code makers.  You > are seeing that credibility problem reflected in the > discussions here on this forum.  Given the back-peddling, > how can we understand and believe what is really necessary? > > Forgive me for being skeptical, but why is it that systems > with components that have been tested together are > demonstrably safer than any collection of high quality > components installed carefully and competently? > > In my mind there is another disconnect here (pun > intended):  I can put high voltage, arc producing and > sustaining wiring on a residential roof or free-standing > rack and not be required to protect that wiring in any > specific manner.  If I were to install a 240VAC, > over-current protected and de-energizeable air > conditioning feeder without conduit, I would be red-tagged > in a hot second.  It may be that fire-fighters in > protective clothing can withstand voltage above 80VDC, but > can children not wearing protective “turn-out” clothing?  > Children mess around on roofs and underneath ground-mount > arrays.  Why is the NEC not protecting them by mandating > specific, listed and tested wire management and guarding > systems? > > Thank you very much and I look forward to your reply. > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, February 17, 2025 10:26 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Rebekah Hren > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? > > I read the wrenches post regularly, as does Brian Mehalic. > We have both been on CMP-4  (responsible for Article 690) > for the past three code cycles. I believe a few other CMP > members probably read too. The International Association > of Firefighters ("largest and most influential labor > unions in North America") is represented on CMP-4 and yes > they do have had a lot to say about this issue. > > This is definitely not the first time we have heard that > certain RS devices are on balance causing more trouble > than they are curing  - though on the other hand some > manufacturers have certainly figured out how to make safe > and effective MLPE. > > > I'm a big fan of UL3741, I have been on that UL technical > committee for about 5 years, and it is the best approach I > see to expand both off-grid and grid-interactive solutions > that don't require MLPE for RS. SMA for example is very > present and working hard at revisions on that standard > right now. At this point I can't see us having any luck in > removing 690.12 requirements, except perhaps to replace > the inside the array boundary voltage limit with only > option as 3741 listing). So please keep asking > manufacturers (inverter/rack) to pay attention to UL3741 > and design products to meet the standard. > > Best > > Rebekah > > Licensed Electrical Contractor > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > > Tel: 336.266.8800 > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 10:59 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Seems like there has been talk of rescinding RSD > requirements before on this forum.  It also seems that > it might gain some traction if a dedicated group of > installers spoke up to the right people (Code Making > Panel for instance) and put some time into it.   I > agree that at the very least we need reliable RSD > equipment, and my preference would be less vs more. > > Does anybody know if any sort of RSD is being required > in Europe (not that we follow their electrical > codes/ideas…just curious)??? > > > >        Amos Post >    Integrity Energy >   W 802.763.7023 >    C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > > Facebook > > > On Feb 17, 2025, at 12:30 PM, david quattro via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > It seems anecdotal until it happens to you. > >     My mention of civil disobedience has been answered > clearly with a “No” in this forum, and I'm fine to > hear that. > >    I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly > think RSD has been a huge and costly mistake. I > genuinely think RSD requirements should be terminated > immediately. If the technology were more robust and if > it worked consistently I wouldn't protest. But *all* > the products I've tried have been trouble. > >    William, respectfully your analogy to seat belts is > not an appropriate comparison to Rapid Shutdown. > Seat-belts were required in all new cars starting in > 1968 because there was statistical evidence supporting > their tremendous efficacy in saving human life. > Currently seat belts save about 15,000 lives per year. > >     Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because of the > following paranoid fairytale scenario - “A firefighter > is on a burning solar roof in the daytime, and wearing > a metal axe at their hip. the poor guy/gal falls into > live solar glass, and shatters it. The fall is so > forceful that the heavy-duty fireman’s suit is > punctured. Electricity conducts through the axe blade, > through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC circuit > is completed through their body.” > >    As far as I know, this has never happened once > anywhere on earth. Let’s be honest - this scenario has > an incredibly low chance of ever happening in all the > future of humanity. So considering that RSD has never > helped anyone yet, and probably never will... How many > fires can be attributed to RSD? How much property > damage has occurred because of these fires? > > The best path to safety for firefighters is by > preventing fire disasters in the first place.  Fires > spread. Any fire that happens endangers property > owners, tenants, business owners, neighbors, shoppers, > bystanders, nearby forests, etc.  RSD manufacturers > aren't doing a good job right now, so we are seeing > low quality unreliable electronics on the roof. I will > stick my neck out and admit that installers are not > always perfect. Humans make mistakes - sometimes in > initial construction, and sometimes during repair and > maintenance (i.e. when hunting down failed RSD's which > happens far more than it should). > >    At this time, these devices are not being designed > to withstand reality. When problems happen, > manufacturers are quibbling. They ignore you until you > go away, or until you sue them. > >   This level of "safety" is not important, and in fact > RSD is causing fires every year. > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller > wrote: > > David, Ray: > > I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS > equipment I have installed and I have had minimal > problems with optimizers and micro-inverters > (which are also RSS equipment). Apparently others > have had failures. We don’t know statically how > serious this problem is—the posts here are purely > anecdotal. > > We also have not heard from the other side of the > debate: the fire fighters. > > Based on lack of verifiable information I can not > personally conclude that RSS is all problem and no > benefit. > > To declare that the concept is flawed because the > equipment available is not reliable is like saying > we should not be required to install airbags > because a bad batch of them was manufactured. We > are seeing problems with the equipment needed to > implement a safety requirement.  That observation > does not logically conclude the safety requirement > is not valuable. > > I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out > of hand.  Safety systems are designed to save > lives and protect from injury, and most of them > do.  I am glad to have anti-lock brakes, smoke > detectors and air bags.   I have also found it > quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to work > more safely on solar circuits. > > Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts > in the fire-response community that can comment on > the their side of the issue? If RSD is really > necessary for safety, then I will do my best to > install good equipment properly and hold > manufacturers accountable for shoddy solutions. If > RSD is not that effective we need to discuss > undoing the code requirements. > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *david quattro via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* david quattro > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience > > RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has > anyone considered civil disobedience? > >     I wonder what would happen if all the > installers banded together and refused, as a > united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones > stuck with the bullshit in the aftermath. > >      I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine > question to the group:   Does anyone have _good_ > experience with RSD?   i.e. you’re really glad RSD > was there, and you genuinely feel safer?  you’re > glad and happy to comply with this code and you > look forward to continuing to use RSD for the rest > of your career? > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > it seems silly that we are required to install > these extra pieces of equipment for added > "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on > the roof. Just to survey again: how many homes > have been saved by RSD? How many fire fighters > have actually actuated the RSD system, so that > they could hack through the array to vent the > roof? > > I think it should only be required if you have > covered so much of the roof with PV, that the > fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do > their venting.  The whole premise of RSD is > flawed.  IMHO, its just another effort to > block the wider adoption of solar. > > When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a > decrease in reliability to amount to a > decrease in safety, due to possible loss of > communications, water, and heat.  Add the fire > hazard and RSD is really not making our > customers' lives better. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Tue Feb 18 11:38:59 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 08:38:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: <62f21976-dbfa-47b8-9d18-4b40c66d20e8@entech-engineering.com> References: <62f21976-dbfa-47b8-9d18-4b40c66d20e8@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: My understanding of code is that all circuits need to be protected from physical damage. It's the same with AC circuits in an unfinished garage..can't have exposed romex under 8' in that scenario either. On Tue, Feb 18, 2025, 8:34 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Well, I think if wiring of a ground mounted system looks like a jungle > gym, then something is wrong. > On 2/18/2025 11:32 AM, Glenn wrote: > > Rarely are AC electrical circuits and equipment placed adjacent to a > residence in a cleared field where there may be children thinking it looks > like a jungle gym either... > > -Glenn > > On Feb 18, 2025 11:23, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > > I think the 8' rule for this is a little bizarre. I can have ac circuits > lower than 8' all through my basement, attic and so forth, but this barrier > requirement for dc conductors that have robust jackets and no exposed live > connections has been hard to justify. Christopher Warfel > On 2/18/2025 12:25 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Tyrone: > > > > You raise an excellent point. Wire guarding is required on ground mount > arrays > , > although the language is vague and the industry does not provide many > hardware solutions. Also, in our area the enforcement > > of the code on this practice is non-existent. I suspect this is true in > many regions. Improvements need to be made. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Tyrone Houck [mailto:tyronehouck at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Monday, February 17, 2025 8:59 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? > > > > As far as ground mounted arrays are concerned there is one clear > protection mandated by the NEC-the requirement for protection from physical > damage for all conductors under 8'.. although this isn't as specific or > redundant as rapid shutdown requirements, it typically means conduit or at > least some kind of physical barrier with the intention often referenced as > protection for children or other unqualified personnel. Not sure if that > fits into the point you were making but it seems worth mentioning. > > Sunny Regards, > > > > Tyrone Houck > > Oregon Solarworks LLC > > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > > 541-787-1366 > > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 8:42 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Rebekah: > > > > Thank you for your post. > > > > I have looked at UL3741 over and over. Here is what I have gleaned: > After module level RSS was mandated there was a reevaluation of what > voltages were actually dangerous for firefighters to be exposed to. It > turns out 80 VDC is not dangerous and, given all of the circumstances for > firefighters, exposure to voltages that are much higher is safe enough. > For some reason I have not yet grasped, all of the components need to be > matched and tested to achieve the hallowed UL3741 rating. > > > > Module level RSS would have presented a big enough upheaval in the > industry if the equipment needed to comply was safe and reliable. There is > evidence that in many cases it may not be, and that amplifies the > skepticism many feel about the current solutions, and frankly, any future > solutions. > > > > It appears the code making panel, when writing the original module level > RSS requirements, may have been a bit “chicken little” about the need for > RSS. This presents a real credibility issue for code makers. You are > seeing that credibility problem reflected in the discussions here on this > forum. Given the back-peddling, how can we understand and believe what is > really necessary? > > > > Forgive me for being skeptical, but why is it that systems with components > that have been tested together are demonstrably safer than any collection > of high quality components installed carefully and competently? > > > > In my mind there is another disconnect here (pun intended): I can put > high voltage, arc producing and sustaining wiring on a residential roof or > free-standing rack and not be required to protect that wiring in any > specific manner. If I were to install a 240VAC, over-current protected and > de-energizeable air conditioning feeder without conduit, I would be > red-tagged in a hot second. It may be that fire-fighters in protective > clothing can withstand voltage above 80VDC, but can children not wearing > protective “turn-out” clothing? Children mess around on roofs and > underneath ground-mount arrays. Why is the NEC not protecting them by > mandating specific, listed and tested wire management and guarding systems? > > > > Thank you very much and I look forward to your reply. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, February 17, 2025 10:26 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Rebekah Hren > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? > > > > I read the wrenches post regularly, as does Brian Mehalic. We have both > been on CMP-4 (responsible for Article 690) for the past three code > cycles. I believe a few other CMP members probably read too. The > International Association of Firefighters ("largest and most influential > labor unions in North America") is represented on CMP-4 and yes they do > have had a lot to say about this issue. > > > > This is definitely not the first time we have heard that certain RS > devices are on balance causing more trouble than they are curing - though > on the other hand some manufacturers have certainly figured out how to make > safe and effective MLPE. > > > I'm a big fan of UL3741, I have been on that UL technical committee for > about 5 years, and it is the best approach I see to expand both off-grid > and grid-interactive solutions that don't require MLPE for RS. SMA for > example is very present and working hard at revisions on that standard > right now. At this point I can't see us having any luck in removing 690.12 > requirements, except perhaps to replace the inside the array boundary > voltage limit with only option as 3741 listing). So please keep asking > manufacturers (inverter/rack) to pay attention to UL3741 and design > products to meet the standard. > > > > Best > > Rebekah > > Licensed Electrical Contractor > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > > Tel: 336.266.8800 > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 10:59 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Seems like there has been talk of rescinding RSD requirements before on > this forum. It also seems that it might gain some traction if a dedicated > group of installers spoke up to the right people (Code Making Panel for > instance) and put some time into it. I agree that at the very least we > need reliable RSD equipment, and my preference would be less vs more. > > > > Does anybody know if any sort of RSD is being required in Europe (not that > we follow their electrical codes/ideas…just curious)??? > > > > > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > > Facebook > > > > On Feb 17, 2025, at 12:30 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > It seems anecdotal until it happens to you. > > My mention of civil disobedience has been answered clearly with a “No” > in this forum, and I'm fine to hear that. > > I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly think RSD has been a > huge and costly mistake. I genuinely think RSD requirements should be > terminated immediately. If the technology were more robust and if it worked > consistently I wouldn't protest. But *all* the products I've tried have > been trouble. > > William, respectfully your analogy to seat belts is not an appropriate > comparison to Rapid Shutdown. Seat-belts were required in all new cars > starting in 1968 because there was statistical evidence supporting their > tremendous efficacy in saving human life. Currently seat belts save about > 15,000 lives per year. > > Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because of the following paranoid > fairytale scenario - “A firefighter is on a burning solar roof in the > daytime, and wearing a metal axe at their hip. the poor guy/gal falls into > live solar glass, and shatters it. The fall is so forceful that the > heavy-duty fireman’s suit is punctured. Electricity conducts through the > axe blade, through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC circuit is > completed through their body.” > > As far as I know, this has never happened once anywhere on earth. Let’s > be honest - this scenario has an incredibly low chance of ever happening in > all the future of humanity. So considering that RSD has never helped anyone > yet, and probably never will... How many fires can be attributed to RSD? > How much property damage has occurred because of these fires? > > The best path to safety for firefighters is by preventing fire > disasters in the first place. Fires spread. Any fire that happens > endangers property owners, tenants, business owners, neighbors, shoppers, > bystanders, nearby forests, etc. RSD manufacturers aren't doing a good job > right now, so we are seeing low quality unreliable electronics on the roof. > I will stick my neck out and admit that installers are not always perfect. > Humans make mistakes - sometimes in initial construction, and sometimes > during repair and maintenance (i.e. when hunting down failed RSD's which > happens far more than it should). > > At this time, these devices are not being designed to withstand > reality. When problems happen, manufacturers are quibbling. They ignore you > until you go away, or until you sue them. > > This level of "safety" is not important, and in fact RSD is causing > fires every year. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller > wrote: > > David, Ray: > > > > I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS equipment I have installed > and I have had minimal problems with optimizers and micro-inverters (which > are also RSS equipment). Apparently others have had failures. We don’t > know statically how serious this problem is—the posts here are purely > anecdotal. > > > > We also have not heard from the other side of the debate: the fire > fighters. > > > > Based on lack of verifiable information I can not personally conclude that > RSS is all problem and no benefit. > > > > To declare that the concept is flawed because the equipment available is > not reliable is like saying we should not be required to install airbags > because a bad batch of them was manufactured. We are seeing problems with > the equipment needed to implement a safety requirement. That observation > does not logically conclude the safety requirement is not valuable. > > > > I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out of hand. Safety systems > are designed to save lives and protect from injury, and most of them do. I > am glad to have anti-lock brakes, smoke detectors and air bags. I have > also found it quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to work more safely > on solar circuits. > > > > Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts in the fire-response > community that can comment on the their side of the issue? If RSD is > really necessary for safety, then I will do my best to install good > equipment properly and hold manufacturers accountable for shoddy > solutions. If RSD is not that effective we need to discuss undoing the > code requirements. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *david quattro via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* david quattro > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience > > > > RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil > disobedience? > > I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and > refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the > bullshit in the aftermath. > > I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: > Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad > RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to > comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the > rest of your career? > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of > equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. > Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire > fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack > through the array to vent the roof? > > I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the roof > with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their > venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another > effort to block the wider adoption of solar. > > When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to > amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, > water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our > customers' lives better. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 18 11:56:19 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 08:56:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sure I get how important it is to electrically heat a pool in a power outage. 😉 Dave An,gelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-02-18 8:05 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > There are many 4,000 sq ft pool homes in my area with electric pool > heating and electric everything else where 25kW would just cover the > electric bill. Some larger homes around here can definitely require > more. Florida Power & Light allows up to 50kW on 120/240V split phase > service, but only if expected production does not exceed an estimated > 115% of historical annual usage. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 12:58 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Why is there a need for more than 25KW for residential please? Just > curious. In Nevada, 25KW is way into commercial. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2025-02-17 9:43 am, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Greetings wrenches, > In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with > regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings > higher than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw > residential limit, net metering applications are being rejected based > on the inverter rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to > handle the customer's existing loads and will never export more than > the 25kw limit dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to > Energy Trust, the state, etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had > this problem or come up with a solution. I would appreciate to hear any > experiences or similar interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this > has worked in other jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is > greatly appreciated. > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Tue Feb 18 12:38:02 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 09:38:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Mistake In-Reply-To: <5c53e8593fab9654db87c9a5de0fd6ed@redwoodalliance.org> References: <5c53e8593fab9654db87c9a5de0fd6ed@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <1739900282.807916875@webmail.finestplanet.com> Can we please keep these idiotic conspiracy theories off this list. Thank you... On Tuesday, February 18, 2025 7:13am, "Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches" said: Hi David, RSS is no mistake. The War on Solar is real. Due to a recent computer crash, I am having problems finding my links documenting the intentional attack on PV from the Koch Brothers and the utility industry in general. I will check on another computer that may still have the information. It is at a different location. I went on the Wrench list with my concerns when this was first proposed, until I was told to stop. Individual homeowner solar is viewed as a big problem for utility profits. There are other ways to safeguard firefighters. -- Cheers, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Feb 18 12:42:02 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 12:42:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Haha, we would not have the pool heater on a backup system, but many times people want a partial home backup system with whole home annual grid offset. But for practical purposes around here, full-time residents often just trade pool heating for air conditioning based on season. If you size a backup system for central air conditioning, sometimes it is technically possible to heat the pool off-grid in the winter because the house load is otherwise a fraction of what it is in the summer months. In the winter, we sometimes see batteries full by 9:00 am and a lot of wasted solar energy. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 11:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Sure I get how important it is to electrically heat a pool in a power outage. 😉 > > *Dave An,gelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-02-18 8:05 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > There are many 4,000 sq ft pool homes in my area with electric pool > heating and electric everything else where 25kW would just cover the > electric bill. Some larger homes around here can definitely require more. > Florida Power & Light allows up to 50kW on 120/240V split phase service, > but only if expected production does not exceed an estimated 115% of > historical annual usage. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 12:58 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Why is there a need for more than 25KW for residential please? Just > curious. In Nevada, 25KW is way into commercial. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-02-17 9:43 am, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Greetings wrenches, > In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with > regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings higher > than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw residential > limit, net metering applications are being rejected based on the inverter > rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to handle the > customer's existing loads and will never export more than the 25kw limit > dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to Energy Trust, the state, > etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had this problem or come up with a > solution. I would appreciate to hear any experiences or similar > interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this has worked in other > jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is greatly appreciated. > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 18 14:37:57 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 11:37:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0d7517083c587c4484255bbadb371645@sti.net> Still Jason it seems very crazy! When I do energy for a home in your neck, usually offgrid, we use mini-splits and in a large home like you are referring with the grid, the same thing, use a split for a zone, like the kitchen and save all that wasted battery capacity backing up the whole home. They may be a bit uncomfortable without the grid but they can survive a hurricane outage, or longer. The strategy of not backing up it all does require the people to be reasonable and trainable. Very few central air systems are useable without spending 10's of thousands more. I think none unless the owner has more money than brains. Good for the economy I guess but all that lithium has to go to the dump someday. Seems alot of lithium is going to the dump with all these companies building batteries and then going out of business also. Alot of my calls are for systems that the installer has long gone out of business. The owner is clueless because they never had a clue about their power system. No Bueno for sure! Stay Safe ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-02-18 9:42 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Haha, we would not have the pool heater on a backup system, but many > times people want a partial home backup system with whole home annual > grid offset. > > But for practical purposes around here, full-time residents often just > trade pool heating for air conditioning based on season. If you size a > backup system for central air conditioning, sometimes it is technically > possible to heat the pool off-grid in the winter because the house load > is otherwise a fraction of what it is in the summer months. In the > winter, we sometimes see batteries full by 9:00 am and a lot of wasted > solar energy. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 11:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Sure I get how important it is to electrically heat a pool in a power > outage. 😉 > > Dave An,gelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2025-02-18 8:05 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > There are many 4,000 sq ft pool homes in my area with electric pool > heating and electric everything else where 25kW would just cover the > electric bill. Some larger homes around here can definitely require > more. Florida Power & Light allows up to 50kW on 120/240V split phase > service, but only if expected production does not exceed an estimated > 115% of historical annual usage. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 12:58 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Why is there a need for more than 25KW for residential please? Just > curious. In Nevada, 25KW is way into commercial. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2025-02-17 9:43 am, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Greetings wrenches, > In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with > regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings > higher than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw > residential limit, net metering applications are being rejected based > on the inverter rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to > handle the customer's existing loads and will never export more than > the 25kw limit dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to > Energy Trust, the state, etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had > this problem or come up with a solution. I would appreciate to hear any > experiences or similar interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this > has worked in other jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is > greatly appreciated. > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Tue Feb 18 15:01:58 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 12:01:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup In-Reply-To: <0d7517083c587c4484255bbadb371645@sti.net> References: <0d7517083c587c4484255bbadb371645@sti.net> Message-ID: In my view, the real consideration here is whether or not the utility should be allowed to be the arbiter of how much capacity a homeowner is allowed to back up. My stance is no. They can't tell you how big of a backup generator you can have. Why should they get to dictate what capacity the customer has with regards to inverter size, assuming the system won't backfeed in excess of net metering limitations. On Tue, Feb 18, 2025, 11:38 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Still Jason it seems very crazy! When I do energy for a home in your neck, > usually offgrid, we use mini-splits and in a large home > like you are referring with the grid, the same thing, use a split for a > zone, like the kitchen and save all that wasted battery capacity backing up > the whole home. They may be a bit uncomfortable without the grid but they > can survive a hurricane outage, > or longer. > > The strategy of not backing up it all does require the people to be > reasonable and trainable. Very few central air systems are useable without > spending 10's of thousands more. I think none unless the owner has more > money than brains. Good for the economy I guess but all that lithium has to > go to the dump someday. > > Seems alot of lithium is going to the dump with all these companies > building batteries and then going out of business also. > > Alot of my calls are for systems that the installer has long gone out of > business. The owner is clueless because they never had > a clue about their power system. No Bueno for sure! Stay Safe ! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-02-18 9:42 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Haha, we would not have the pool heater on a backup system, but many times > people want a partial home backup system with whole home annual grid > offset. > > But for practical purposes around here, full-time residents often just > trade pool heating for air conditioning based on season. If you size a > backup system for central air conditioning, sometimes it is technically > possible to heat the pool off-grid in the winter because the house load is > otherwise a fraction of what it is in the summer months. In the winter, we > sometimes see batteries full by 9:00 am and a lot of wasted solar energy. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 11:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Sure I get how important it is to electrically heat a pool in a power outage. 😉 > > *Dave An,gelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-02-18 8:05 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > There are many 4,000 sq ft pool homes in my area with electric pool > heating and electric everything else where 25kW would just cover the > electric bill. Some larger homes around here can definitely require more. > Florida Power & Light allows up to 50kW on 120/240V split phase service, > but only if expected production does not exceed an estimated 115% of > historical annual usage. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 12:58 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Why is there a need for more than 25KW for residential please? Just > curious. In Nevada, 25KW is way into commercial. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-02-17 9:43 am, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Greetings wrenches, > In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with > regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings higher > than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw residential > limit, net metering applications are being rejected based on the inverter > rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to handle the > customer's existing loads and will never export more than the 25kw limit > dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to Energy Trust, the state, > etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had this problem or come up with a > solution. I would appreciate to hear any experiences or similar > interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this has worked in other > jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is greatly appreciated. > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Feb 18 14:53:20 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 11:53:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEM3 inverter quest Message-ID: <335e23cd69a36f76771d996700aa50aa@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Now that I am on NEM3 I need to consider a battery system to capture daytime energy production and use it to self-power at night. I am new to this concept so I apologize for newbie questions. It will not be easy for me to install a critical-loads sub-panel and I am not looking for outage protection. Therefore I think my only AC connection to the inverter would be to the input. My shop has a 100 amp feeder and 8 Kw of PV on it. (There is 2.5 Kw of PV on the house). The shop would be an ideal place to put an inverter and battery bank. · I would like to charge batteries exclusively from solar and only feed excess PV production back to the grid. · I would like to sell from batteries into my home distribution but only to meet the use on my premises. I assume CTs on the utility feeder would regulate this sell rate. Is there an inverter that will do this? I have not found the proper search terms to give me usable answers. I’ve been reading manuals from many different manufacturers but manuals seem to have become very vague as of late. Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Feb 18 15:10:53 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 12:10:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEM3 inverter quest In-Reply-To: <335e23cd69a36f76771d996700aa50aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <335e23cd69a36f76771d996700aa50aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William - I know you're not a fan of Tesla, you so you might want to check out FranklinWH (which is basically like a supercharged Powerwall 2 system): https://www.franklinwh.com/products/apower2-home-battery-backup/ or Enphase: https://enphase.com/store/storage/gen3/iq-battery-5p?srsltid=AfmBOoojCQ36cLiuTk7Egp47myyWpz834SsfiKw3fA_hp3B2__lhSbc0 Enphase would require you to have microinverters for your PV whereas Franklin should be able to AC-couple to your existing PV inverter. Enphase is releasing their IQ Meter Collar adapter in the coming months: https://enphase.com/download/iq-meter-collar-data-sheet?srsltid=AfmBOopomsOkyikV7VatWtysBPHBp4UqW-uh_jSaZJx7HQxP0KgZwLGo This meter collar product is a total game changer - Tesla has had a meter collar adapter for the last year or more and it has probably reduced our labor by about half to provide whole-home backup. I understand that FranklinWh expects to have a meter collar coming in Q2 of this year. Best, August On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 12:03 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > Now that I am on NEM3 I need to consider a battery system to capture > daytime energy production and use it to self-power at night. I am new to > this concept so I apologize for newbie questions. > > > > It will not be easy for me to install a critical-loads sub-panel and I am > not looking for outage protection. Therefore I think my only AC connection > to the inverter would be to the input. > > > > My shop has a 100 amp feeder and 8 Kw of PV on it. (There is 2.5 Kw of PV > on the house). The shop would be an ideal place to put an inverter and > battery bank. > > > > · I would like to charge batteries exclusively from solar and only > feed excess PV production back to the grid. > > · I would like to sell from batteries into my home distribution > but only to meet the use on my premises. I assume CTs on the utility > feeder would regulate this sell rate. > > > > Is there an inverter that will do this? I have not found the proper > search terms to give me usable answers. I’ve been reading manuals from > many different manufacturers but manuals seem to have become very vague as > of late. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Feb 18 15:56:52 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 15:56:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Mistake In-Reply-To: <5c53e8593fab9654db87c9a5de0fd6ed@redwoodalliance.org> References: <5c53e8593fab9654db87c9a5de0fd6ed@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I meant to send this to David only. Here is a Guardian article that shows the beginning of the issue. There is much more if you are interested. ---https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/04/alec-freerider-homeowners-assault-clean-energy On 2025-02-18 10:13, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi David, > > RSS is no mistake. The War on Solar is real. Due to a recent computer > crash, I am having problems finding my links documenting the > intentional attack on PV from the Koch Brothers and the utility > industry in general. I will check on another computer that may still > have the information. It is at a different location. > > I went on the Wrench list with my concerns when this was first > proposed, until I was told to stop. Individual homeowner solar is > viewed as a big problem for utility profits. There are other ways to > safeguard firefighters. > > -- > Cheers, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Feb 18 16:07:27 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 16:07:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEM3 inverter quest In-Reply-To: <335e23cd69a36f76771d996700aa50aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <335e23cd69a36f76771d996700aa50aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, Both Midnite AIO and the Sol-Ark line are capable of this "self consumption", and yes, you would put CTs (that come with the inverters), on L1 and L2 lines coming into the house. I've been solely using the AIO since it has been an option, in large part because Midnite's batteries pair with the AIO seamlessly, have a 15 year warranty and are less than ½ the price of other LiFePO4 batteries that I would consider. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Tue, Feb 18, 2025, 3:03 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > Now that I am on NEM3 I need to consider a battery system to capture > daytime energy production and use it to self-power at night. I am new to > this concept so I apologize for newbie questions. > > > > It will not be easy for me to install a critical-loads sub-panel and I am > not looking for outage protection. Therefore I think my only AC connection > to the inverter would be to the input. > > > > My shop has a 100 amp feeder and 8 Kw of PV on it. (There is 2.5 Kw of PV > on the house). The shop would be an ideal place to put an inverter and > battery bank. > > > > · I would like to charge batteries exclusively from solar and only > feed excess PV production back to the grid. > > · I would like to sell from batteries into my home distribution > but only to meet the use on my premises. I assume CTs on the utility > feeder would regulate this sell rate. > > > > Is there an inverter that will do this? I have not found the proper > search terms to give me usable answers. I’ve been reading manuals from > many different manufacturers but manuals seem to have become very vague as > of late. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Feb 18 16:30:36 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 16:30:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: References: <62f21976-dbfa-47b8-9d18-4b40c66d20e8@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <2493cd3c-5791-4fb3-bc45-ec176c0c6999@entech-engineering.com> Is there a NEC reference for that you know of?, as I see Romex brought down to switches very often, and I've not found a reference prohibiting that.  As far as a ground mounted solar system being climbed on, anything is possible, but hopefully trees are of more interest.  Thank you, Chris On 2/18/2025 11:38 AM, Tyrone Houck wrote: > > My understanding of code is that all circuits need to be protected > from physical damage. It's the same with AC circuits in an unfinished > garage..can't have exposed romex under 8' in that scenario either. > > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2025, 8:34 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Well, I think if wiring of a ground mounted system looks like a > jungle gym, then something is wrong. > > On 2/18/2025 11:32 AM, Glenn wrote: >> Rarely are AC electrical circuits and equipment placed adjacent >> to a residence in a cleared field where there may be children >> thinking it looks like a jungle gym either... >> >> -Glenn >> >> On Feb 18, 2025 11:23, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches >> >> wrote: >> >> I think the 8' rule for this is a little bizarre. I can have >> ac circuits lower than 8' all through my basement, attic and >> so forth, but this barrier requirement for dc conductors that >> have robust jackets and no exposed live connections has been >> hard to justify. Christopher Warfel >> >> On 2/18/2025 12:25 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Tyrone: >> >> You raise an excellent point. Wire guarding is required >> on ground mount arrays >> , >> although the language is vague and the industry does not >> provide many hardware solutions.  Also, in our area the >> enforcement >> >> of the code on this practice is non-existent.  I suspect >> this is true in many regions.  Improvements need to be made. >> >> William Miller >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> *From:*Tyrone Houck [mailto:tyronehouck at gmail.com] >> *Sent:* Monday, February 17, 2025 8:59 PM >> *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? >> >> As far as ground mounted arrays are concerned there is >> one clear protection mandated by the NEC-the requirement >> for protection from physical damage for all conductors >> under 8'.. although this isn't as specific or redundant >> as rapid shutdown requirements, it typically means >> conduit or at least some kind of physical barrier with >> the intention often referenced as protection for children >> or other unqualified personnel. Not sure if that fits >> into the point you were making but it seems worth mentioning. >> >> Sunny Regards, >> >> Tyrone Houck >> >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> >> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >> >> 541-787-1366 >> >> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 8:42 PM William Miller via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Rebekah: >> >> Thank you for your post. >> >> I have looked at UL3741 over and over.  Here is what >> I have gleaned:  After module level RSS was mandated >> there was a reevaluation of what voltages were >> actually dangerous for firefighters to be exposed >> to.  It turns out 80 VDC is not dangerous and, given >> all of the circumstances for firefighters, exposure >> to voltages that are much higher is safe enough.  For >> some reason I have not yet grasped, all of the >> components need to be matched and tested to achieve >> the hallowed UL3741 rating. >> >> Module level RSS would have presented a big enough >> upheaval in the industry if the equipment needed to >> comply was safe and reliable.  There is evidence that >> in many cases it may not be, and that amplifies the >> skepticism many feel about the current solutions, and >> frankly, any future solutions. >> >> It appears the code making panel, when writing the >> original module level RSS requirements, may have been >> a bit “chicken little” about the need for RSS.  This >> presents a real credibility issue for code makers.  >> You are seeing that credibility problem reflected in >> the discussions here on this forum.  Given the >> back-peddling, how can we understand and believe what >> is really necessary? >> >> Forgive me for being skeptical, but why is it that >> systems with components that have been tested >> together are demonstrably safer than any collection >> of high quality components installed carefully and >> competently? >> >> In my mind there is another disconnect here (pun >> intended):  I can put high voltage, arc producing and >> sustaining wiring on a residential roof or >> free-standing rack and not be required to protect >> that wiring in any specific manner.  If I were to >> install a 240VAC, over-current protected and >> de-energizeable air conditioning feeder without >> conduit, I would be red-tagged in a hot second.  It >> may be that fire-fighters in protective clothing can >> withstand voltage above 80VDC, but can children not >> wearing protective “turn-out” clothing?  Children >> mess around on roofs and underneath ground-mount >> arrays.  Why is the NEC not protecting them by >> mandating specific, listed and tested wire management >> and guarding systems? >> >> Thank you very much and I look forward to your reply. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> William Miller >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> *On Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Monday, February 17, 2025 10:26 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Rebekah Hren >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? >> >> I read the wrenches post regularly, as does Brian >> Mehalic. We have both been on CMP-4  (responsible for >> Article 690) for the past three code cycles. I >> believe a few other CMP members probably read too. >> The International Association of Firefighters >> ("largest and most influential labor unions in North >> America") is represented on CMP-4 and yes they do >> have had a lot to say about this issue. >> >> This is definitely not the first time we have heard >> that certain RS devices are on balance causing more >> trouble than they are curing  - though on the other >> hand some manufacturers have certainly figured out >> how to make safe and effective MLPE. >> >> >> I'm a big fan of UL3741, I have been on that UL >> technical committee for about 5 years, and it is the >> best approach I see to expand both off-grid and >> grid-interactive solutions that don't require MLPE >> for RS. SMA for example is very present and working >> hard at revisions on that standard right now. At this >> point I can't see us having any luck in removing >> 690.12 requirements, except perhaps to replace the >> inside the array boundary voltage limit with only >> option as 3741 listing). So please keep asking >> manufacturers (inverter/rack) to pay attention to >> UL3741 and design products to meet the standard. >> >> Best >> >> Rebekah >> >> Licensed Electrical Contractor >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ >> 091209-85 >> >> Tel: 336.266.8800 >> >> On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 10:59 AM Amos Post via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Seems like there has been talk of rescinding RSD >> requirements before on this forum.  It also seems >> that it might gain some traction if a dedicated >> group of installers spoke up to the right people >> (Code Making Panel for instance) and put some >> time into it.   I agree that at the very least we >> need reliable RSD equipment, and my preference >> would be less vs more. >> >> Does anybody know if any sort of RSD is being >> required in Europe (not that we follow their >> electrical codes/ideas…just curious)??? >> >> >> >>        Amos Post >>    Integrity Energy >>   W 802.763.7023 >>    C 802.291.2188 >> ienergyVT.com >> >> Facebook >> >> >> On Feb 17, 2025, at 12:30 PM, david quattro via >> RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> It seems anecdotal until it happens to you. >> >>     My mention of civil disobedience has been >> answered clearly with a “No” in this forum, and >> I'm fine to hear that. >> >>    I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly >> think RSD has been a huge and costly mistake. I >> genuinely think RSD requirements should be >> terminated immediately. If the technology were >> more robust and if it worked consistently I >> wouldn't protest. But *all* the products I've >> tried have been trouble. >> >>    William, respectfully your analogy to seat >> belts is not an appropriate comparison to Rapid >> Shutdown. Seat-belts were required in all new >> cars starting in 1968 because there was >> statistical evidence supporting their tremendous >> efficacy in saving human life. Currently seat >> belts save about 15,000 lives per year. >> >>     Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because >> of the following paranoid fairytale scenario - “A >> firefighter is on a burning solar roof in the >> daytime, and wearing a metal axe at their hip. >> the poor guy/gal falls into live solar glass, and >> shatters it. The fall is so forceful that the >> heavy-duty fireman’s suit is punctured. >> Electricity conducts through the axe blade, >> through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC >> circuit is completed through their body.” >> >>    As far as I know, this has never happened once >> anywhere on earth. Let’s be honest - this >> scenario has an incredibly low chance of ever >> happening in all the future of humanity. So >> considering that RSD has never helped anyone yet, >> and probably never will... How many fires can be >> attributed to RSD? How much property damage has >> occurred because of these fires? >> >> The best path to safety for firefighters is by >> preventing fire disasters in the first place. >> Fires spread. Any fire that happens >> endangers property owners, tenants, business >> owners, neighbors, shoppers, bystanders, nearby >> forests, etc.  RSD manufacturers aren't doing a >> good job right now, so we are seeing low quality >> unreliable electronics on the roof. I will stick >> my neck out and admit that installers are not >> always perfect. Humans make mistakes - sometimes >> in initial construction, and sometimes during >> repair and maintenance (i.e. when hunting down >> failed RSD's which happens far more than it should). >> >>    At this time, these devices are not being >> designed to withstand reality. When problems >> happen, manufacturers are quibbling. They ignore >> you until you go away, or until you sue them. >> >>   This level of "safety" is not important, and in >> fact RSD is causing fires every year. >> >> On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller >> wrote: >> >> David, Ray: >> >> I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS >> equipment I have installed and I have had >> minimal problems with optimizers and >> micro-inverters (which are also RSS >> equipment).  Apparently others have had >> failures. We don’t know statically how >> serious this problem is—the posts here are >> purely anecdotal. >> >> We also have not heard from the other side of >> the debate: the fire fighters. >> >> Based on lack of verifiable information I can >> not personally conclude that RSS is all >> problem and no benefit. >> >> To declare that the concept is flawed because >> the equipment available is not reliable is >> like saying we should not be required to >> install airbags because a bad batch of them >> was manufactured. We are seeing problems with >> the equipment needed to implement a safety >> requirement. That observation does not >> logically conclude the safety requirement is >> not valuable. >> >> I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement >> out of hand. Safety systems are designed to >> save lives and protect from injury, and most >> of them do.  I am glad to have anti-lock >> brakes, smoke detectors and air bags.   I >> have also found it quite handy to initiate >> RSS to allow me to work more safely on solar >> circuits. >> >> Does anyone on this installers forum have >> contacts in the fire-response community that >> can comment on the their side of the issue? >> If RSD is really necessary for safety, then I >> will do my best to install good equipment >> properly and hold manufacturers accountable >> for shoddy solutions.  If RSD is not that >> effective we need to discuss undoing the code >> requirements. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> William Miller >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> *On Behalf Of *david quattro via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* david quattro >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter >> experience >> >> RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. >> Has anyone considered civil disobedience? >> >>     I wonder what would happen if all the >> installers banded together and refused, as a >> united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the >> ones stuck with the bullshit in the aftermath. >> >>      I’m not being snarky here , this a >> genuine question to the group: Does anyone >> have _good_ experience with RSD? i.e. you’re >> really glad RSD was there, and you genuinely >> feel safer?  you’re glad and happy to comply >> with this code and you look forward to >> continuing to use RSD for the rest of your >> career? >> >> On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters >> via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> it seems silly that we are required to >> install these extra pieces of equipment >> for added "safety", that are actually a >> fire hazard on the roof. Just to survey >> again: how many homes have been saved by >> RSD? How many fire fighters have actually >> actuated the RSD system, so that they >> could hack through the array to vent the >> roof? >> >> I think it should only be required if you >> have covered so much of the roof with PV, >> that the fire dept can't access uncovered >> roof to do their venting.  The whole >> premise of RSD is flawed.  IMHO, its just >> another effort to block the wider >> adoption of solar. >> >> When it comes to off grid, RSD causes >> such a decrease in reliability to amount >> to a decrease in safety, due to possible >> loss of communications, water, and heat.  >> Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not >> making our customers' lives better. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When >> one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When >> one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one >> doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel, PE >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> (401) 447-5773 >> >> > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Feb 18 16:30:43 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 13:30:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEM3 inverter quest In-Reply-To: References: <335e23cd69a36f76771d996700aa50aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This guide from Enphase provides information about how the system charges and discharges under NBT. https://enphase.com/download/ai-optimization-california-net-billing-tariff-nem-30-user-guide?srsltid=AfmBOor2Aj0uW41ejGxYl5znFAPQsneTdxu7AqRxdqjJ5uG5_eOQW_dC Manufacturers may or may not have all the advanced algorithms required to maximize the finances under NBT and I think any of them that want to survive are going to be continually improving their software. August On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 1:08 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > William, > Both Midnite AIO and the Sol-Ark line are capable of this "self > consumption", and yes, you would put CTs (that come with the inverters), on > L1 and L2 lines coming into the house. I've been solely using the AIO > since it has been an option, in large part because Midnite's batteries pair > with the AIO seamlessly, have a 15 year warranty and are less than ½ the > price of other LiFePO4 batteries that I would consider. > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2025, 3:03 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> Now that I am on NEM3 I need to consider a battery system to capture >> daytime energy production and use it to self-power at night. I am new to >> this concept so I apologize for newbie questions. >> >> >> >> It will not be easy for me to install a critical-loads sub-panel and I am >> not looking for outage protection. Therefore I think my only AC connection >> to the inverter would be to the input. >> >> >> >> My shop has a 100 amp feeder and 8 Kw of PV on it. (There is 2.5 Kw of >> PV on the house). The shop would be an ideal place to put an inverter and >> battery bank. >> >> >> >> · I would like to charge batteries exclusively from solar and >> only feed excess PV production back to the grid. >> >> · I would like to sell from batteries into my home distribution >> but only to meet the use on my premises. I assume CTs on the utility >> feeder would regulate this sell rate. >> >> >> >> Is there an inverter that will do this? I have not found the proper >> search terms to give me usable answers. I’ve been reading manuals from >> many different manufacturers but manuals seem to have become very vague as >> of late. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Feb 18 17:05:16 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 17:05:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup In-Reply-To: <0d7517083c587c4484255bbadb371645@sti.net> References: <0d7517083c587c4484255bbadb371645@sti.net> Message-ID: Not bragging, but many of my clients in this situation are billionaires or at least some sizable fraction of that. Naples is a pretty interesting place. They are usually not willing to compromise. On the three barrier islands where I do off-grid work, it always starts off as a few mini-splits and then it ends up being a few mini-splits and a 5-ton central. And then they install an electric hot tub unbeknownst to me. And then there are three electric golf carts that show up. And how can you enjoy the beach with 30 of your favorite friends without a large ice maker (on top of the undercabinet unit at the outdoor wetbar)? It never ends. For on-grid homes with common 400A service (dual 200A panels) we focus on backing up one panel while installing enough PV to cover the total annual household usage, which is usually the request we get. They would love to back up both panels, but when confronted with the space requirements and battery capacity limitations imposed by NFPA 855, the conversation usually goes my way. As for the PV portion, we always hear that if they can't cover 100%, they don't see the point in doing it. That's why you end up with giant PV arrays with battery capacities more typical of a modest home. I just spent an hour explaining to a customer with an existing 25kW Enphase system why he can't back up two 200A panels with Tesla Powerwall 3's (without serious drawbacks associated with splitting the PV and battery). He was also under the impression that he could use Powershare from his Cybertruck to back up both 200A panels simultaneously, or at least switch easily between them (I actually toyed with the idea of a transfer switch to accomplish this, but decided to just say no). These clients don't hear NO often. On the other hand, they are usually very smart and ask good questions. Most of them didn't get rich by accident. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 2:38 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Still Jason it seems very crazy! When I do energy for a home in your neck, > usually offgrid, we use mini-splits and in a large home > like you are referring with the grid, the same thing, use a split for a > zone, like the kitchen and save all that wasted battery capacity backing up > the whole home. They may be a bit uncomfortable without the grid but they > can survive a hurricane outage, > or longer. > > The strategy of not backing up it all does require the people to be > reasonable and trainable. Very few central air systems are useable without > spending 10's of thousands more. I think none unless the owner has more > money than brains. Good for the economy I guess but all that lithium has to > go to the dump someday. > > Seems alot of lithium is going to the dump with all these companies > building batteries and then going out of business also. > > Alot of my calls are for systems that the installer has long gone out of > business. The owner is clueless because they never had > a clue about their power system. No Bueno for sure! Stay Safe ! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-02-18 9:42 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Haha, we would not have the pool heater on a backup system, but many times > people want a partial home backup system with whole home annual grid > offset. > > But for practical purposes around here, full-time residents often just > trade pool heating for air conditioning based on season. If you size a > backup system for central air conditioning, sometimes it is technically > possible to heat the pool off-grid in the winter because the house load is > otherwise a fraction of what it is in the summer months. In the winter, we > sometimes see batteries full by 9:00 am and a lot of wasted solar energy. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 11:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Sure I get how important it is to electrically heat a pool in a power outage. 😉 > > *Dave An,gelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-02-18 8:05 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > There are many 4,000 sq ft pool homes in my area with electric pool > heating and electric everything else where 25kW would just cover the > electric bill. Some larger homes around here can definitely require more. > Florida Power & Light allows up to 50kW on 120/240V split phase service, > but only if expected production does not exceed an estimated 115% of > historical annual usage. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 12:58 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Why is there a need for more than 25KW for residential please? Just > curious. In Nevada, 25KW is way into commercial. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-02-17 9:43 am, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Greetings wrenches, > In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with > regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings higher > than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw residential > limit, net metering applications are being rejected based on the inverter > rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to handle the > customer's existing loads and will never export more than the 25kw limit > dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to Energy Trust, the state, > etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had this problem or come up with a > solution. I would appreciate to hear any experiences or similar > interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this has worked in other > jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is greatly appreciated. > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Tue Feb 18 17:12:44 2025 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 22:12:44 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup In-Reply-To: References: <0d7517083c587c4484255bbadb371645@sti.net> Message-ID: Jason, Sounds like an interesting market. A transfer switch is probably more expensive than two Tesla vehicle chargers, one for each system. He just needs to remember which one to plug into and you just need to sell at least 4 PW3s, a couple gateways and you’re in business…. Matt From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2025 5:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Not bragging, but many of my clients in this situation are billionaires or at least some sizable fraction of that. Naples is a pretty interesting place. They are usually not willing to compromise. On the three barrier islands where I do off-grid work, it always starts off as a few mini-splits and then it ends up being a few mini-splits and a 5-ton central. And then they install an electric hot tub unbeknownst to me. And then there are three electric golf carts that show up. And how can you enjoy the beach with 30 of your favorite friends without a large ice maker (on top of the undercabinet unit at the outdoor wetbar)? It never ends. For on-grid homes with common 400A service (dual 200A panels) we focus on backing up one panel while installing enough PV to cover the total annual household usage, which is usually the request we get. They would love to back up both panels, but when confronted with the space requirements and battery capacity limitations imposed by NFPA 855, the conversation usually goes my way. As for the PV portion, we always hear that if they can't cover 100%, they don't see the point in doing it. That's why you end up with giant PV arrays with battery capacities more typical of a modest home. I just spent an hour explaining to a customer with an existing 25kW Enphase system why he can't back up two 200A panels with Tesla Powerwall 3's (without serious drawbacks associated with splitting the PV and battery). He was also under the impression that he could use Powershare from his Cybertruck to back up both 200A panels simultaneously, or at least switch easily between them (I actually toyed with the idea of a transfer switch to accomplish this, but decided to just say no). These clients don't hear NO often. On the other hand, they are usually very smart and ask good questions. Most of them didn't get rich by accident. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 2:38 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: Still Jason it seems very crazy! When I do energy for a home in your neck, usually offgrid, we use mini-splits and in a large home like you are referring with the grid, the same thing, use a split for a zone, like the kitchen and save all that wasted battery capacity backing up the whole home. They may be a bit uncomfortable without the grid but they can survive a hurricane outage, or longer. The strategy of not backing up it all does require the people to be reasonable and trainable. Very few central air systems are useable without spending 10's of thousands more. I think none unless the owner has more money than brains. Good for the economy I guess but all that lithium has to go to the dump someday. Seems alot of lithium is going to the dump with all these companies building batteries and then going out of business also. Alot of my calls are for systems that the installer has long gone out of business. The owner is clueless because they never had a clue about their power system. No Bueno for sure! Stay Safe ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-02-18 9:42 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: Haha, we would not have the pool heater on a backup system, but many times people want a partial home backup system with whole home annual grid offset. But for practical purposes around here, full-time residents often just trade pool heating for air conditioning based on season. If you size a backup system for central air conditioning, sometimes it is technically possible to heat the pool off-grid in the winter because the house load is otherwise a fraction of what it is in the summer months. In the winter, we sometimes see batteries full by 9:00 am and a lot of wasted solar energy. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 11:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: Sure I get how important it is to electrically heat a pool in a power outage. 😉 Dave An,gelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-02-18 8:05 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: There are many 4,000 sq ft pool homes in my area with electric pool heating and electric everything else where 25kW would just cover the electric bill. Some larger homes around here can definitely require more. Florida Power & Light allows up to 50kW on 120/240V split phase service, but only if expected production does not exceed an estimated 115% of historical annual usage. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 12:58 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: Why is there a need for more than 25KW for residential please? Just curious. In Nevada, 25KW is way into commercial. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-02-17 9:43 am, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: Greetings wrenches, In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings higher than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw residential limit, net metering applications are being rejected based on the inverter rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to handle the customer's existing loads and will never export more than the 25kw limit dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to Energy Trust, the state, etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had this problem or come up with a solution. I would appreciate to hear any experiences or similar interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this has worked in other jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is greatly appreciated. Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Feb 18 17:22:13 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 17:22:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup In-Reply-To: References: <0d7517083c587c4484255bbadb371645@sti.net> Message-ID: Yes, but the PV system would need to be split, and inevitably, the balance of PV and battery assigned to each distribution panel will not match up well at times. A single battery and a single PV system serving the entire property is what he really wants. Tesla is not the answer for that today. I suggested converting the dual 200A service to a single 400A service and using 4-6 Midnite AIOs, but that would get pretty messy. I do like the idea of having two wall connectors for this purpose. That didn't cross my mind. I could possibly convince him to do a GW3/PW3 system for one 200A panel and just a Powershare for the other panel (without PV recharging). It depends on what is on each panel I suppose. The Powershare is only 110A LRA, so it might not start up larger AC units without soft start. The whole idea isn't too practical, but he wants to explore all options. Also, as of today, Powershare does not work with the Gateway 3 with Powerwall 3. They are working on an OTA firmware update to support this. For now, it's just unidirectional charging from the Wall Connector. You need the Gateway 3V for Powershare to work, but that does not work with Powerwall 3, so it's a waiting game. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 5:12 PM Matt Partymiller wrote: > Jason, > > > > Sounds like an interesting market. > > > > A transfer switch is probably more expensive than two Tesla vehicle > chargers, one for each system. He just needs to remember which one to plug > into and you just need to sell at least 4 PW3s, a couple gateways and > you’re in business…. > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 18, 2025 5:05 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery > backup > > > > *Caution:* This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > > > > Not bragging, but many of my clients in this situation are billionaires or > at least some sizable fraction of that. Naples is a pretty interesting > place. They are usually not willing to compromise. On the three barrier > islands where I do off-grid work, it always starts off as a few mini-splits > and then it ends up being a few mini-splits and a 5-ton central. And then > they install an electric hot tub unbeknownst to me. And then there are > three electric golf carts that show up. And how can you enjoy the beach > with 30 of your favorite friends without a large ice maker (on top of the > undercabinet unit at the outdoor wetbar)? It never ends. > > > > For on-grid homes with common 400A service (dual 200A panels) we focus on > backing up one panel while installing enough PV to cover the total annual > household usage, which is usually the request we get. They would love to > back up both panels, but when confronted with the space requirements and > battery capacity limitations imposed by NFPA 855, the conversation usually > goes my way. As for the PV portion, we always hear that if they can't cover > 100%, they don't see the point in doing it. That's why you end up with > giant PV arrays with battery capacities more typical of a modest home. > > > > I just spent an hour explaining to a customer with an existing 25kW > Enphase system why he can't back up two 200A panels with Tesla Powerwall > 3's (without serious drawbacks associated with splitting the PV and > battery). He was also under the impression that he could use Powershare > from his Cybertruck to back up both 200A panels simultaneously, or at least > switch easily between them (I actually toyed with the idea of a transfer > switch to accomplish this, but decided to just say no). > > > > These clients don't hear NO often. On the other hand, they are usually > very smart and ask good questions. Most of them didn't get rich by accident. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 2:38 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Still Jason it seems very crazy! When I do energy for a home in your neck, > usually offgrid, we use mini-splits and in a large home > > like you are referring with the grid, the same thing, use a split for a > zone, like the kitchen and save all that wasted battery capacity backing up > the whole home. They may be a bit uncomfortable without the grid but they > can survive a hurricane outage, > > or longer. > > > > The strategy of not backing up it all does require the people to be > reasonable and trainable. Very few central air systems are useable without > spending 10's of thousands more. I think none unless the owner has more > money than brains. Good for the economy I guess but all that lithium has to > go to the dump someday. > > > > Seems alot of lithium is going to the dump with all these companies > building batteries and then going out of business also. > > > > Alot of my calls are for systems that the installer has long gone out of > business. The owner is clueless because they never had > > a clue about their power system. No Bueno for sure! Stay Safe ! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > > > On 2025-02-18 9:42 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Haha, we would not have the pool heater on a backup system, but many times > people want a partial home backup system with whole home annual grid > offset. > > > > But for practical purposes around here, full-time residents often just > trade pool heating for air conditioning based on season. If you size a > backup system for central air conditioning, sometimes it is technically > possible to heat the pool off-grid in the winter because the house load is > otherwise a fraction of what it is in the summer months. In the winter, we > sometimes see batteries full by 9:00 am and a lot of wasted solar energy. > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 11:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Sure I get how important it is to electrically heat a pool in a power outage. 😉 > > *Dave An,gelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > > > On 2025-02-18 8:05 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > There are many 4,000 sq ft pool homes in my area with electric pool > heating and electric everything else where 25kW would just cover the > electric bill. Some larger homes around here can definitely require more. > Florida Power & Light allows up to 50kW on 120/240V split phase service, > but only if expected production does not exceed an estimated 115% of > historical annual usage. > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 12:58 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Why is there a need for more than 25KW for residential please? Just > curious. In Nevada, 25KW is way into commercial. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > > > On 2025-02-17 9:43 am, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Greetings wrenches, > > In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with > regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings higher > than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw residential > limit, net metering applications are being rejected based on the inverter > rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to handle the > customer's existing loads and will never export more than the 25kw limit > dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to Energy Trust, the state, > etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had this problem or come up with a > solution. I would appreciate to hear any experiences or similar > interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this has worked in other > jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is greatly appreciated. > > > > Tyrone Houck > > Oregon Solarworks LLC > > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > > 541-787-1366 > > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Feb 18 17:26:53 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 14:26:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup In-Reply-To: References: <0d7517083c587c4484255bbadb371645@sti.net> Message-ID: Elevators, it's all about the Elevators On Tue, Feb 18, 2025, 2:24 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yes, but the PV system would need to be split, and inevitably, the balance > of PV and battery assigned to each distribution panel will not match up > well at times. A single battery and a single PV system serving the entire > property is what he really wants. Tesla is not the answer for that today. I > suggested converting the dual 200A service to a single 400A service and > using 4-6 Midnite AIOs, but that would get pretty messy. > > I do like the idea of having two wall connectors for this purpose. That > didn't cross my mind. I could possibly convince him to do a GW3/PW3 system > for one 200A panel and just a Powershare for the other panel (without PV > recharging). It depends on what is on each panel I suppose. The Powershare > is only 110A LRA, so it might not start up larger AC units without soft > start. The whole idea isn't too practical, but he wants to explore all > options. > > Also, as of today, Powershare does not work with the Gateway 3 with > Powerwall 3. They are working on an OTA firmware update to support this. > For now, it's just unidirectional charging from the Wall Connector. You > need the Gateway 3V for Powershare to work, but that does not work with > Powerwall 3, so it's a waiting game. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 5:12 PM Matt Partymiller wrote: > >> Jason, >> >> >> >> Sounds like an interesting market. >> >> >> >> A transfer switch is probably more expensive than two Tesla vehicle >> chargers, one for each system. He just needs to remember which one to plug >> into and you just need to sell at least 4 PW3s, a couple gateways and >> you’re in business…. >> >> >> >> Matt >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 18, 2025 5:05 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery >> backup >> >> >> >> *Caution:* This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or >> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is >> safe. >> >> >> >> Not bragging, but many of my clients in this situation are billionaires >> or at least some sizable fraction of that. Naples is a pretty interesting >> place. They are usually not willing to compromise. On the three barrier >> islands where I do off-grid work, it always starts off as a few mini-splits >> and then it ends up being a few mini-splits and a 5-ton central. And then >> they install an electric hot tub unbeknownst to me. And then there are >> three electric golf carts that show up. And how can you enjoy the beach >> with 30 of your favorite friends without a large ice maker (on top of the >> undercabinet unit at the outdoor wetbar)? It never ends. >> >> >> >> For on-grid homes with common 400A service (dual 200A panels) we focus on >> backing up one panel while installing enough PV to cover the total annual >> household usage, which is usually the request we get. They would love to >> back up both panels, but when confronted with the space requirements and >> battery capacity limitations imposed by NFPA 855, the conversation usually >> goes my way. As for the PV portion, we always hear that if they can't cover >> 100%, they don't see the point in doing it. That's why you end up with >> giant PV arrays with battery capacities more typical of a modest home. >> >> >> >> I just spent an hour explaining to a customer with an existing 25kW >> Enphase system why he can't back up two 200A panels with Tesla Powerwall >> 3's (without serious drawbacks associated with splitting the PV and >> battery). He was also under the impression that he could use Powershare >> from his Cybertruck to back up both 200A panels simultaneously, or at least >> switch easily between them (I actually toyed with the idea of a transfer >> switch to accomplish this, but decided to just say no). >> >> >> >> These clients don't hear NO often. On the other hand, they are usually >> very smart and ask good questions. Most of them didn't get rich by accident. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 2:38 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Still Jason it seems very crazy! When I do energy for a home in your >> neck, usually offgrid, we use mini-splits and in a large home >> >> like you are referring with the grid, the same thing, use a split for a >> zone, like the kitchen and save all that wasted battery capacity backing up >> the whole home. They may be a bit uncomfortable without the grid but they >> can survive a hurricane outage, >> >> or longer. >> >> >> >> The strategy of not backing up it all does require the people to be >> reasonable and trainable. Very few central air systems are useable without >> spending 10's of thousands more. I think none unless the owner has more >> money than brains. Good for the economy I guess but all that lithium has to >> go to the dump someday. >> >> >> >> Seems alot of lithium is going to the dump with all these companies >> building batteries and then going out of business also. >> >> >> >> Alot of my calls are for systems that the installer has long gone out of >> business. The owner is clueless because they never had >> >> a clue about their power system. No Bueno for sure! Stay Safe ! >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >> >> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >> >> * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * >> >> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >> >> *text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> >> On 2025-02-18 9:42 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Haha, we would not have the pool heater on a backup system, but many >> times people want a partial home backup system with whole home annual grid >> offset. >> >> >> >> But for practical purposes around here, full-time residents often just >> trade pool heating for air conditioning based on season. If you size a >> backup system for central air conditioning, sometimes it is technically >> possible to heat the pool off-grid in the winter because the house load is >> otherwise a fraction of what it is in the summer months. In the winter, we >> sometimes see batteries full by 9:00 am and a lot of wasted solar energy. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 11:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Sure I get how important it is to electrically heat a pool in a power outage. 😉 >> >> *Dave An,gelini Offgrid Solar* >> >> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >> >> * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * >> >> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >> >> *text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> >> On 2025-02-18 8:05 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> There are many 4,000 sq ft pool homes in my area with electric pool >> heating and electric everything else where 25kW would just cover the >> electric bill. Some larger homes around here can definitely require more. >> Florida Power & Light allows up to 50kW on 120/240V split phase service, >> but only if expected production does not exceed an estimated 115% of >> historical annual usage. >> >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 12:58 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Why is there a need for more than 25KW for residential please? Just >> curious. In Nevada, 25KW is way into commercial. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >> >> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >> >> * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * >> >> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >> >> *text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> >> On 2025-02-17 9:43 am, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Greetings wrenches, >> >> In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with >> regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings higher >> than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw residential >> limit, net metering applications are being rejected based on the inverter >> rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to handle the >> customer's existing loads and will never export more than the 25kw limit >> dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to Energy Trust, the state, >> etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had this problem or come up with a >> solution. I would appreciate to hear any experiences or similar >> interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this has worked in other >> jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is greatly appreciated. >> >> >> >> Tyrone Houck >> >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> >> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >> >> 541-787-1366 >> >> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Tue Feb 18 17:34:54 2025 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 22:34:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup In-Reply-To: References: <0d7517083c587c4484255bbadb371645@sti.net> Message-ID: Another option may be a main breaker, bypass breaker interlock kit in the non-backed up panel. The home would obviously be limited to 200A total during an outage but, if he doesn’t mind going and swapping Cybertruck chargers he may also not mind going down to the basement and hitting the interlock kit to turn off the main and turn on the bypass on the non-backed up panel. I’ve heard of an 800A home that operates on that principle. I think the three non-backed up (or maybe non-instantaneous) panels are fed by 60A circuits off the backed-up panel. Savvy clients only…. Matt From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2025 5:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Yes, but the PV system would need to be split, and inevitably, the balance of PV and battery assigned to each distribution panel will not match up well at times. A single battery and a single PV system serving the entire property is what he really wants. Tesla is not the answer for that today. I suggested converting the dual 200A service to a single 400A service and using 4-6 Midnite AIOs, but that would get pretty messy. I do like the idea of having two wall connectors for this purpose. That didn't cross my mind. I could possibly convince him to do a GW3/PW3 system for one 200A panel and just a Powershare for the other panel (without PV recharging). It depends on what is on each panel I suppose. The Powershare is only 110A LRA, so it might not start up larger AC units without soft start. The whole idea isn't too practical, but he wants to explore all options. Also, as of today, Powershare does not work with the Gateway 3 with Powerwall 3. They are working on an OTA firmware update to support this. For now, it's just unidirectional charging from the Wall Connector. You need the Gateway 3V for Powershare to work, but that does not work with Powerwall 3, so it's a waiting game. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 5:12 PM Matt Partymiller > wrote: Jason, Sounds like an interesting market. A transfer switch is probably more expensive than two Tesla vehicle chargers, one for each system. He just needs to remember which one to plug into and you just need to sell at least 4 PW3s, a couple gateways and you’re in business…. Matt From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2025 5:05 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Not bragging, but many of my clients in this situation are billionaires or at least some sizable fraction of that. Naples is a pretty interesting place. They are usually not willing to compromise. On the three barrier islands where I do off-grid work, it always starts off as a few mini-splits and then it ends up being a few mini-splits and a 5-ton central. And then they install an electric hot tub unbeknownst to me. And then there are three electric golf carts that show up. And how can you enjoy the beach with 30 of your favorite friends without a large ice maker (on top of the undercabinet unit at the outdoor wetbar)? It never ends. For on-grid homes with common 400A service (dual 200A panels) we focus on backing up one panel while installing enough PV to cover the total annual household usage, which is usually the request we get. They would love to back up both panels, but when confronted with the space requirements and battery capacity limitations imposed by NFPA 855, the conversation usually goes my way. As for the PV portion, we always hear that if they can't cover 100%, they don't see the point in doing it. That's why you end up with giant PV arrays with battery capacities more typical of a modest home. I just spent an hour explaining to a customer with an existing 25kW Enphase system why he can't back up two 200A panels with Tesla Powerwall 3's (without serious drawbacks associated with splitting the PV and battery). He was also under the impression that he could use Powershare from his Cybertruck to back up both 200A panels simultaneously, or at least switch easily between them (I actually toyed with the idea of a transfer switch to accomplish this, but decided to just say no). These clients don't hear NO often. On the other hand, they are usually very smart and ask good questions. Most of them didn't get rich by accident. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 2:38 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: Still Jason it seems very crazy! When I do energy for a home in your neck, usually offgrid, we use mini-splits and in a large home like you are referring with the grid, the same thing, use a split for a zone, like the kitchen and save all that wasted battery capacity backing up the whole home. They may be a bit uncomfortable without the grid but they can survive a hurricane outage, or longer. The strategy of not backing up it all does require the people to be reasonable and trainable. Very few central air systems are useable without spending 10's of thousands more. I think none unless the owner has more money than brains. Good for the economy I guess but all that lithium has to go to the dump someday. Seems alot of lithium is going to the dump with all these companies building batteries and then going out of business also. Alot of my calls are for systems that the installer has long gone out of business. The owner is clueless because they never had a clue about their power system. No Bueno for sure! Stay Safe ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-02-18 9:42 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: Haha, we would not have the pool heater on a backup system, but many times people want a partial home backup system with whole home annual grid offset. But for practical purposes around here, full-time residents often just trade pool heating for air conditioning based on season. If you size a backup system for central air conditioning, sometimes it is technically possible to heat the pool off-grid in the winter because the house load is otherwise a fraction of what it is in the summer months. In the winter, we sometimes see batteries full by 9:00 am and a lot of wasted solar energy. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 11:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: Sure I get how important it is to electrically heat a pool in a power outage. 😉 Dave An,gelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-02-18 8:05 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: There are many 4,000 sq ft pool homes in my area with electric pool heating and electric everything else where 25kW would just cover the electric bill. Some larger homes around here can definitely require more. Florida Power & Light allows up to 50kW on 120/240V split phase service, but only if expected production does not exceed an estimated 115% of historical annual usage. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 12:58 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: Why is there a need for more than 25KW for residential please? Just curious. In Nevada, 25KW is way into commercial. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-02-17 9:43 am, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: Greetings wrenches, In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings higher than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw residential limit, net metering applications are being rejected based on the inverter rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to handle the customer's existing loads and will never export more than the 25kw limit dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to Energy Trust, the state, etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had this problem or come up with a solution. I would appreciate to hear any experiences or similar interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this has worked in other jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is greatly appreciated. Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Feb 18 17:35:03 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 17:35:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup In-Reply-To: References: <0d7517083c587c4484255bbadb371645@sti.net> Message-ID: Don't even get me started on that. I have a library that wants a PV system and batteries just to operate the elevators in the event of an outage. It's 120/208V. We are seriously looking at a Sol-Ark 30K. On Tue, Feb 18, 2025, 5:27 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Elevators, it's all about the Elevators > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2025, 2:24 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Yes, but the PV system would need to be split, and inevitably, the >> balance of PV and battery assigned to each distribution panel will not >> match up well at times. A single battery and a single PV system serving the >> entire property is what he really wants. Tesla is not the answer for that >> today. I suggested converting the dual 200A service to a single 400A >> service and using 4-6 Midnite AIOs, but that would get pretty messy. >> >> I do like the idea of having two wall connectors for this purpose. That >> didn't cross my mind. I could possibly convince him to do a GW3/PW3 system >> for one 200A panel and just a Powershare for the other panel (without PV >> recharging). It depends on what is on each panel I suppose. The Powershare >> is only 110A LRA, so it might not start up larger AC units without soft >> start. The whole idea isn't too practical, but he wants to explore all >> options. >> >> Also, as of today, Powershare does not work with the Gateway 3 with >> Powerwall 3. They are working on an OTA firmware update to support this. >> For now, it's just unidirectional charging from the Wall Connector. You >> need the Gateway 3V for Powershare to work, but that does not work with >> Powerwall 3, so it's a waiting game. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 5:12 PM Matt Partymiller wrote: >> >>> Jason, >>> >>> >>> >>> Sounds like an interesting market. >>> >>> >>> >>> A transfer switch is probably more expensive than two Tesla vehicle >>> chargers, one for each system. He just needs to remember which one to plug >>> into and you just need to sell at least 4 PW3s, a couple gateways and >>> you’re in business…. >>> >>> >>> >>> Matt >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 18, 2025 5:05 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir >>> battery backup >>> >>> >>> >>> *Caution:* This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links >>> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is >>> safe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Not bragging, but many of my clients in this situation are billionaires >>> or at least some sizable fraction of that. Naples is a pretty interesting >>> place. They are usually not willing to compromise. On the three barrier >>> islands where I do off-grid work, it always starts off as a few mini-splits >>> and then it ends up being a few mini-splits and a 5-ton central. And then >>> they install an electric hot tub unbeknownst to me. And then there are >>> three electric golf carts that show up. And how can you enjoy the beach >>> with 30 of your favorite friends without a large ice maker (on top of the >>> undercabinet unit at the outdoor wetbar)? It never ends. >>> >>> >>> >>> For on-grid homes with common 400A service (dual 200A panels) we focus >>> on backing up one panel while installing enough PV to cover the total >>> annual household usage, which is usually the request we get. They would >>> love to back up both panels, but when confronted with the space >>> requirements and battery capacity limitations imposed by NFPA 855, the >>> conversation usually goes my way. As for the PV portion, we always hear >>> that if they can't cover 100%, they don't see the point in doing it. That's >>> why you end up with giant PV arrays with battery capacities more typical of >>> a modest home. >>> >>> >>> >>> I just spent an hour explaining to a customer with an existing 25kW >>> Enphase system why he can't back up two 200A panels with Tesla Powerwall >>> 3's (without serious drawbacks associated with splitting the PV and >>> battery). He was also under the impression that he could use Powershare >>> from his Cybertruck to back up both 200A panels simultaneously, or at least >>> switch easily between them (I actually toyed with the idea of a transfer >>> switch to accomplish this, but decided to just say no). >>> >>> >>> >>> These clients don't hear NO often. On the other hand, they are usually >>> very smart and ask good questions. Most of them didn't get rich by accident. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 2:38 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Still Jason it seems very crazy! When I do energy for a home in your >>> neck, usually offgrid, we use mini-splits and in a large home >>> >>> like you are referring with the grid, the same thing, use a split for a >>> zone, like the kitchen and save all that wasted battery capacity backing up >>> the whole home. They may be a bit uncomfortable without the grid but they >>> can survive a hurricane outage, >>> >>> or longer. >>> >>> >>> >>> The strategy of not backing up it all does require the people to be >>> reasonable and trainable. Very few central air systems are useable without >>> spending 10's of thousands more. I think none unless the owner has more >>> money than brains. Good for the economy I guess but all that lithium has to >>> go to the dump someday. >>> >>> >>> >>> Seems alot of lithium is going to the dump with all these companies >>> building batteries and then going out of business also. >>> >>> >>> >>> Alot of my calls are for systems that the installer has long gone out of >>> business. The owner is clueless because they never had >>> >>> a clue about their power system. No Bueno for sure! Stay Safe ! >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>> >>> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >>> >>> * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * >>> >>> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >>> >>> *text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2025-02-18 9:42 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Haha, we would not have the pool heater on a backup system, but many >>> times people want a partial home backup system with whole home annual grid >>> offset. >>> >>> >>> >>> But for practical purposes around here, full-time residents often just >>> trade pool heating for air conditioning based on season. If you size a >>> backup system for central air conditioning, sometimes it is technically >>> possible to heat the pool off-grid in the winter because the house load is >>> otherwise a fraction of what it is in the summer months. In the winter, we >>> sometimes see batteries full by 9:00 am and a lot of wasted solar energy. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 11:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Sure I get how important it is to electrically heat a pool in a power outage. 😉 >>> >>> *Dave An,gelini Offgrid Solar* >>> >>> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >>> >>> * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * >>> >>> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >>> >>> *text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2025-02-18 8:05 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> There are many 4,000 sq ft pool homes in my area with electric pool >>> heating and electric everything else where 25kW would just cover the >>> electric bill. Some larger homes around here can definitely require more. >>> Florida Power & Light allows up to 50kW on 120/240V split phase service, >>> but only if expected production does not exceed an estimated 115% of >>> historical annual usage. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 12:58 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Why is there a need for more than 25KW for residential please? Just >>> curious. In Nevada, 25KW is way into commercial. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>> >>> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >>> >>> * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * >>> >>> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >>> >>> *text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2025-02-17 9:43 am, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Greetings wrenches, >>> >>> In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with >>> regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings higher >>> than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw residential >>> limit, net metering applications are being rejected based on the inverter >>> rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to handle the >>> customer's existing loads and will never export more than the 25kw limit >>> dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to Energy Trust, the state, >>> etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had this problem or come up with a >>> solution. I would appreciate to hear any experiences or similar >>> interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this has worked in other >>> jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is greatly appreciated. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tyrone Houck >>> >>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>> >>> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >>> >>> 541-787-1366 >>> >>> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Tue Feb 18 17:54:44 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 17:54:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir battery backup In-Reply-To: References: <0d7517083c587c4484255bbadb371645@sti.net> Message-ID: Proceed with caution, feel free to contact me off list. On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 5:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Don't even get me started on that. I have a library that wants a PV system > and batteries just to operate the elevators in the event of an outage. It's > 120/208V. We are seriously looking at a Sol-Ark 30K. > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2025, 5:27 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Elevators, it's all about the Elevators >> >> On Tue, Feb 18, 2025, 2:24 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Yes, but the PV system would need to be split, and inevitably, the >>> balance of PV and battery assigned to each distribution panel will not >>> match up well at times. A single battery and a single PV system serving the >>> entire property is what he really wants. Tesla is not the answer for that >>> today. I suggested converting the dual 200A service to a single 400A >>> service and using 4-6 Midnite AIOs, but that would get pretty messy. >>> >>> I do like the idea of having two wall connectors for this purpose. That >>> didn't cross my mind. I could possibly convince him to do a GW3/PW3 system >>> for one 200A panel and just a Powershare for the other panel (without PV >>> recharging). It depends on what is on each panel I suppose. The Powershare >>> is only 110A LRA, so it might not start up larger AC units without soft >>> start. The whole idea isn't too practical, but he wants to explore all >>> options. >>> >>> Also, as of today, Powershare does not work with the Gateway 3 with >>> Powerwall 3. They are working on an OTA firmware update to support this. >>> For now, it's just unidirectional charging from the Wall Connector. You >>> need the Gateway 3V for Powershare to work, but that does not work with >>> Powerwall 3, so it's a waiting game. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 5:12 PM Matt Partymiller wrote: >>> >>>> Jason, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sounds like an interesting market. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A transfer switch is probably more expensive than two Tesla vehicle >>>> chargers, one for each system. He just needs to remember which one to plug >>>> into and you just need to sell at least 4 PW3s, a couple gateways and >>>> you’re in business…. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Matt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 18, 2025 5:05 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter ratings exceeding 25kw fir >>>> battery backup >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Caution:* This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links >>>> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is >>>> safe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Not bragging, but many of my clients in this situation are billionaires >>>> or at least some sizable fraction of that. Naples is a pretty interesting >>>> place. They are usually not willing to compromise. On the three barrier >>>> islands where I do off-grid work, it always starts off as a few mini-splits >>>> and then it ends up being a few mini-splits and a 5-ton central. And then >>>> they install an electric hot tub unbeknownst to me. And then there are >>>> three electric golf carts that show up. And how can you enjoy the beach >>>> with 30 of your favorite friends without a large ice maker (on top of the >>>> undercabinet unit at the outdoor wetbar)? It never ends. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For on-grid homes with common 400A service (dual 200A panels) we focus >>>> on backing up one panel while installing enough PV to cover the total >>>> annual household usage, which is usually the request we get. They would >>>> love to back up both panels, but when confronted with the space >>>> requirements and battery capacity limitations imposed by NFPA 855, the >>>> conversation usually goes my way. As for the PV portion, we always hear >>>> that if they can't cover 100%, they don't see the point in doing it. That's >>>> why you end up with giant PV arrays with battery capacities more typical of >>>> a modest home. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I just spent an hour explaining to a customer with an existing 25kW >>>> Enphase system why he can't back up two 200A panels with Tesla Powerwall >>>> 3's (without serious drawbacks associated with splitting the PV and >>>> battery). He was also under the impression that he could use Powershare >>>> from his Cybertruck to back up both 200A panels simultaneously, or at least >>>> switch easily between them (I actually toyed with the idea of a transfer >>>> switch to accomplish this, but decided to just say no). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> These clients don't hear NO often. On the other hand, they are usually >>>> very smart and ask good questions. Most of them didn't get rich by accident. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 2:38 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Still Jason it seems very crazy! When I do energy for a home in your >>>> neck, usually offgrid, we use mini-splits and in a large home >>>> >>>> like you are referring with the grid, the same thing, use a split for a >>>> zone, like the kitchen and save all that wasted battery capacity backing up >>>> the whole home. They may be a bit uncomfortable without the grid but they >>>> can survive a hurricane outage, >>>> >>>> or longer. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The strategy of not backing up it all does require the people to be >>>> reasonable and trainable. Very few central air systems are useable without >>>> spending 10's of thousands more. I think none unless the owner has more >>>> money than brains. Good for the economy I guess but all that lithium has to >>>> go to the dump someday. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Seems alot of lithium is going to the dump with all these companies >>>> building batteries and then going out of business also. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Alot of my calls are for systems that the installer has long gone out >>>> of business. The owner is clueless because they never had >>>> >>>> a clue about their power system. No Bueno for sure! Stay Safe ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>>> >>>> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >>>> >>>> * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * >>>> >>>> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >>>> >>>> *text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2025-02-18 9:42 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Haha, we would not have the pool heater on a backup system, but many >>>> times people want a partial home backup system with whole home annual grid >>>> offset. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But for practical purposes around here, full-time residents often just >>>> trade pool heating for air conditioning based on season. If you size a >>>> backup system for central air conditioning, sometimes it is technically >>>> possible to heat the pool off-grid in the winter because the house load is >>>> otherwise a fraction of what it is in the summer months. In the winter, we >>>> sometimes see batteries full by 9:00 am and a lot of wasted solar energy. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 11:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Sure I get how important it is to electrically heat a pool in a power outage. 😉 >>>> >>>> *Dave An,gelini Offgrid Solar* >>>> >>>> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >>>> >>>> * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * >>>> >>>> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >>>> >>>> *text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2025-02-18 8:05 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> There are many 4,000 sq ft pool homes in my area with electric pool >>>> heating and electric everything else where 25kW would just cover the >>>> electric bill. Some larger homes around here can definitely require more. >>>> Florida Power & Light allows up to 50kW on 120/240V split phase service, >>>> but only if expected production does not exceed an estimated 115% of >>>> historical annual usage. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 12:58 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Why is there a need for more than 25KW for residential please? Just >>>> curious. In Nevada, 25KW is way into commercial. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>>> >>>> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >>>> >>>> * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * >>>> >>>> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >>>> >>>> *text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2025-02-17 9:43 am, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Greetings wrenches, >>>> >>>> In Pacific Power territory we are coming up against roadblocks with >>>> regards to whole house battery backup systems with inverter ratings higher >>>> than 25kw. Even when the generation capacity is below the 25kw residential >>>> limit, net metering applications are being rejected based on the inverter >>>> rating.. The inverter rating in these cases is sized to handle the >>>> customer's existing loads and will never export more than the 25kw limit >>>> dictated by Oregon PUC. I am drafting a letter to Energy Trust, the state, >>>> etc. But am curious if anyone else gas had this problem or come up with a >>>> solution. I would appreciate to hear any experiences or similar >>>> interactions with PGE or PPL or even how this has worked in other >>>> jurisdictions, states, etc. Any input or support is greatly appreciated. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tyrone Houck >>>> >>>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>>> >>>> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >>>> >>>> 541-787-1366 >>>> >>>> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Tue Feb 18 20:15:01 2025 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 01:15:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We are either using Solar Edge or designing and procuring to UL3741 to meet rapid shut down without MLPE. Be careful cost wise with larger roofs where the AC runs from inverters that are far away and next to their subarray are resulting in larger wire sizes. Still, it’s worth it to sleep a little better at night. The manufacturers of MLPE’s were justifiably not ready to deliver safe products to the industry at the scale needed. Is there a product that will safely last 25 years under these conditions? 90+ degrees on the roof that day and 20 degrees out there today. I always remember John Wiles saying forget about the modules working for 25 years, worry about the BOS. And for the most part that’s generally accurate. In our specific fire last year: 1. Firefighters didn’t go on the roof (and they apparently do not in such situations here) but rather sprayed it from two separate locations. 2. Firefighters didn’t shut off the solar AC disconnect which was external and accessible. Eventually it was shut off by the owner when they realized the system was still operating. 3. The next morning when the sun came up and the damaged array started arcing and burning, they sprayed it for another couple of hours. 4. After a structural engineer inspected the decking, we were finally allowed on the roof to make the situation as safe as possible electrically which consisted of isolating down to every module in damaged areas and every string that wasn’t damaged. Otherwise the damaged RSDs weren’t making anything safer. 5. Investigation by multiple insurance companies’ fire expert teams followed but not for two weeks. 6. The teams knew each other from chasing these types of fires across the country and they had a nickname for the RSD on this roof. 7. $3M in damage was the last number I heard. Thankfully no immediate injuries, other than psychological, but that smoke is absolutely horrible. 8. Here is a link to the fire: https://www.google.com/search?q=roof+fire+secaucus+NJ&rlz=1C1ASVC_enUS948US955&oq=roof+fire+secaucus+NJ&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRigATIHCAQQIRigATIHCAUQIRirAtIBCDUwNjZqMGo0qAIAsAIB&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:2ee587e2,vid:7Vw-5alnbKM,st:0 We’re seeing insurance companies sending questionnaires out to our PV system owners asking about maintenance agreements, type of equipment, etc. One of the questions inevitably is whether there are module level shut down devices installed. I wonder who is helping them out with that questionnaire. And at some point will the presence of MLPE’s be viewed as positive or negative when writing the insurance policy for that building? David David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems 917-848-0215 718-389-1545 dbuckner at solaresystems.com www.solaresystems.com 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 The information contained in this email message, including any attached files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Rebekah Hren via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, February 17, 2025 1:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Rebekah Hren Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? CAUTION: External Email. I read the wrenches post regularly, as does Brian Mehalic. We have both been on CMP-4 (responsible for Article 690) for the past three code cycles. I believe a few other CMP members probably read too. The International Association of Firefighters ("largest and most influential labor unions in North America") is represented on CMP-4 and yes they do have had a lot to say about this issue. This is definitely not the first time we have heard that certain RS devices are on balance causing more trouble than they are curing - though on the other hand some manufacturers have certainly figured out how to make safe and effective MLPE. I'm a big fan of UL3741, I have been on that UL technical committee for about 5 years, and it is the best approach I see to expand both off-grid and grid-interactive solutions that don't require MLPE for RS. SMA for example is very present and working hard at revisions on that standard right now. At this point I can't see us having any luck in removing 690.12 requirements, except perhaps to replace the inside the array boundary voltage limit with only option as 3741 listing). So please keep asking manufacturers (inverter/rack) to pay attention to UL3741 and design products to meet the standard. Best Rebekah Licensed Electrical Contractor NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 Tel: 336.266.8800 On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 10:59 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches > wrote: Seems like there has been talk of rescinding RSD requirements before on this forum. It also seems that it might gain some traction if a dedicated group of installers spoke up to the right people (Code Making Panel for instance) and put some time into it. I agree that at the very least we need reliable RSD equipment, and my preference would be less vs more. Does anybody know if any sort of RSD is being required in Europe (not that we follow their electrical codes/ideas…just curious)??? [cid:image001.jpg at 01DB8241.C92D0EA0] Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook On Feb 17, 2025, at 12:30 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: It seems anecdotal until it happens to you. My mention of civil disobedience has been answered clearly with a “No” in this forum, and I'm fine to hear that. I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly think RSD has been a huge and costly mistake. I genuinely think RSD requirements should be terminated immediately. If the technology were more robust and if it worked consistently I wouldn't protest. But all the products I've tried have been trouble. William, respectfully your analogy to seat belts is not an appropriate comparison to Rapid Shutdown. Seat-belts were required in all new cars starting in 1968 because there was statistical evidence supporting their tremendous efficacy in saving human life. Currently seat belts save about 15,000 lives per year. Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because of the following paranoid fairytale scenario - “A firefighter is on a burning solar roof in the daytime, and wearing a metal axe at their hip. the poor guy/gal falls into live solar glass, and shatters it. The fall is so forceful that the heavy-duty fireman’s suit is punctured. Electricity conducts through the axe blade, through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC circuit is completed through their body.” As far as I know, this has never happened once anywhere on earth. Let’s be honest - this scenario has an incredibly low chance of ever happening in all the future of humanity. So considering that RSD has never helped anyone yet, and probably never will... How many fires can be attributed to RSD? How much property damage has occurred because of these fires? The best path to safety for firefighters is by preventing fire disasters in the first place. Fires spread. Any fire that happens endangers property owners, tenants, business owners, neighbors, shoppers, bystanders, nearby forests, etc. RSD manufacturers aren't doing a good job right now, so we are seeing low quality unreliable electronics on the roof. I will stick my neck out and admit that installers are not always perfect. Humans make mistakes - sometimes in initial construction, and sometimes during repair and maintenance (i.e. when hunting down failed RSD's which happens far more than it should). At this time, these devices are not being designed to withstand reality. When problems happen, manufacturers are quibbling. They ignore you until you go away, or until you sue them. This level of "safety" is not important, and in fact RSD is causing fires every year. On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller > wrote: David, Ray: I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS equipment I have installed and I have had minimal problems with optimizers and micro-inverters (which are also RSS equipment). Apparently others have had failures. We don’t know statically how serious this problem is—the posts here are purely anecdotal. We also have not heard from the other side of the debate: the fire fighters. Based on lack of verifiable information I can not personally conclude that RSS is all problem and no benefit. To declare that the concept is flawed because the equipment available is not reliable is like saying we should not be required to install airbags because a bad batch of them was manufactured. We are seeing problems with the equipment needed to implement a safety requirement. That observation does not logically conclude the safety requirement is not valuable. I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out of hand. Safety systems are designed to save lives and protect from injury, and most of them do. I am glad to have anti-lock brakes, smoke detectors and air bags. I have also found it quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to work more safely on solar circuits. Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts in the fire-response community that can comment on the their side of the issue? If RSD is really necessary for safety, then I will do my best to install good equipment properly and hold manufacturers accountable for shoddy solutions. If RSD is not that effective we need to discuss undoing the code requirements. Sincerely, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of david quattro via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: david quattro Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil disobedience? I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the bullshit in the aftermath. I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: Does anyone have good experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the rest of your career? On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack through the array to vent the roof? I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the roof with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another effort to block the wider adoption of solar. When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our customers' lives better. Ray Walters Remote Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image088630.png Type: image/png Size: 40037 bytes Desc: image088630.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image645183.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: image645183.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image797515.png Type: image/png Size: 596 bytes Desc: image797515.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image243506.png Type: image/png Size: 499 bytes Desc: image243506.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image992640.png Type: image/png Size: 804 bytes Desc: image992640.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image489307.png Type: image/png Size: 608 bytes Desc: image489307.png URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Feb 18 22:52:37 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 19:52:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David: Fascinating and to the point. Your narrative begs the question: What is that nickname? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 5:16 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We are either using Solar Edge or designing and procuring to UL3741 to > meet rapid shut down without MLPE. Be careful cost wise with larger roofs > where the AC runs from inverters that are far away and next to their > subarray are resulting in larger wire sizes. Still, it’s worth it to sleep > a little better at night. > > > > The manufacturers of MLPE’s were justifiably not ready to deliver safe > products to the industry at the scale needed. Is there a product that will > safely last 25 years under these conditions? 90+ degrees on the roof that > day and 20 degrees out there today. I always remember John Wiles saying > forget about the modules working for 25 years, worry about the BOS. And > for the most part that’s generally accurate. > > > > In our specific fire last year: > > 1. Firefighters didn’t go on the roof (and they apparently do not in > such situations here) but rather sprayed it from two separate locations. > 2. Firefighters didn’t shut off the solar AC disconnect which was > external and accessible. Eventually it was shut off by the owner when they > realized the system was still operating. > 3. The next morning when the sun came up and the damaged array started > arcing and burning, they sprayed it for another couple of hours. > 4. After a structural engineer inspected the decking, we were finally > allowed on the roof to make the situation as safe as possible electrically > which consisted of isolating down to every module in damaged areas and > every string that wasn’t damaged. Otherwise the damaged RSDs weren’t > making anything safer. > 5. Investigation by multiple insurance companies’ fire expert teams > followed but not for two weeks. > 6. The teams knew each other from chasing these types of fires across > the country and they had a nickname for the RSD on this roof. > 7. $3M in damage was the last number I heard. Thankfully no immediate > injuries, other than psychological, but that smoke is absolutely horrible. > 8. Here is a link to the fire: > https://www.google.com/search?q=roof+fire+secaucus+NJ&rlz=1C1ASVC_enUS948US955&oq=roof+fire+secaucus+NJ&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRigATIHCAQQIRigATIHCAUQIRirAtIBCDUwNjZqMGo0qAIAsAIB&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:2ee587e2,vid:7Vw-5alnbKM,st:0 > > > > We’re seeing insurance companies sending questionnaires out to our PV > system owners asking about maintenance agreements, type of equipment, etc. > One of the questions inevitably is whether there are module level shut down > devices installed. I wonder who is helping them out with that > questionnaire. And at some point will the presence of MLPE’s be viewed as > positive or negative when writing the insurance policy for that building? > > > > David > > > > > > David Buckner​​​​ > > President > > Solar Energy Systems > > 917-848-0215 > > 718-389-1545 > > dbuckner at solaresystems.com > > www.solaresystems.com > > > 41 > > Box > > Street > > 2nd > > Floor, > > Brooklyn, > > NY > > 11222 > > > The information contained in this email message, including any attached > files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is > intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the > intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal > information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, > the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby > notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward > this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured > or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, > destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender > therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the > contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail > transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the > sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank > you. > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, February 17, 2025 1:26 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Rebekah Hren > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? > > > > CAUTION: External Email. > > I read the wrenches post regularly, as does Brian Mehalic. We have both > been on CMP-4 (responsible for Article 690) for the past three code > cycles. I believe a few other CMP members probably read too. The > International Association of Firefighters ("largest and most influential > labor unions in North America") is represented on CMP-4 and yes they do > have had a lot to say about this issue. > > > > This is definitely not the first time we have heard that certain RS > devices are on balance causing more trouble than they are curing - though > on the other hand some manufacturers have certainly figured out how to make > safe and effective MLPE. > > > I'm a big fan of UL3741, I have been on that UL technical committee for > about 5 years, and it is the best approach I see to expand both off-grid > and grid-interactive solutions that don't require MLPE for RS. SMA for > example is very present and working hard at revisions on that standard > right now. At this point I can't see us having any luck in removing 690.12 > requirements, except perhaps to replace the inside the array boundary > voltage limit with only option as 3741 listing). So please keep asking > manufacturers (inverter/rack) to pay attention to UL3741 and design > products to meet the standard. > > > > Best > > Rebekah > > Licensed Electrical Contractor > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > > Tel: 336.266.8800 > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 10:59 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Seems like there has been talk of rescinding RSD requirements before on > this forum. It also seems that it might gain some traction if a dedicated > group of installers spoke up to the right people (Code Making Panel for > instance) and put some time into it. I agree that at the very least we > need reliable RSD equipment, and my preference would be less vs more. > > > > Does anybody know if any sort of RSD is being required in Europe (not that > we follow their electrical codes/ideas…just curious)??? > > > > > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > > Facebook > > > > On Feb 17, 2025, at 12:30 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > It seems anecdotal until it happens to you. > > My mention of civil disobedience has been answered clearly with a “No” > in this forum, and I'm fine to hear that. > > I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly think RSD has been a > huge and costly mistake. I genuinely think RSD requirements should be > terminated immediately. If the technology were more robust and if it worked > consistently I wouldn't protest. But *all* the products I've tried have > been trouble. > > William, respectfully your analogy to seat belts is not an appropriate > comparison to Rapid Shutdown. Seat-belts were required in all new cars > starting in 1968 because there was statistical evidence supporting their > tremendous efficacy in saving human life. Currently seat belts save about > 15,000 lives per year. > > Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because of the following paranoid > fairytale scenario - “A firefighter is on a burning solar roof in the > daytime, and wearing a metal axe at their hip. the poor guy/gal falls into > live solar glass, and shatters it. The fall is so forceful that the > heavy-duty fireman’s suit is punctured. Electricity conducts through the > axe blade, through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC circuit is > completed through their body.” > > As far as I know, this has never happened once anywhere on earth. Let’s > be honest - this scenario has an incredibly low chance of ever happening in > all the future of humanity. So considering that RSD has never helped anyone > yet, and probably never will... How many fires can be attributed to RSD? > How much property damage has occurred because of these fires? > > The best path to safety for firefighters is by preventing fire > disasters in the first place. Fires spread. Any fire that happens > endangers property owners, tenants, business owners, neighbors, shoppers, > bystanders, nearby forests, etc. RSD manufacturers aren't doing a good job > right now, so we are seeing low quality unreliable electronics on the roof. > I will stick my neck out and admit that installers are not always perfect. > Humans make mistakes - sometimes in initial construction, and sometimes > during repair and maintenance (i.e. when hunting down failed RSD's which > happens far more than it should). > > At this time, these devices are not being designed to withstand > reality. When problems happen, manufacturers are quibbling. They ignore you > until you go away, or until you sue them. > > This level of "safety" is not important, and in fact RSD is causing > fires every year. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller > wrote: > > David, Ray: > > > > I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS equipment I have installed > and I have had minimal problems with optimizers and micro-inverters (which > are also RSS equipment). Apparently others have had failures. We don’t > know statically how serious this problem is—the posts here are purely > anecdotal. > > > > We also have not heard from the other side of the debate: the fire > fighters. > > > > Based on lack of verifiable information I can not personally conclude that > RSS is all problem and no benefit. > > > > To declare that the concept is flawed because the equipment available is > not reliable is like saying we should not be required to install airbags > because a bad batch of them was manufactured. We are seeing problems with > the equipment needed to implement a safety requirement. That observation > does not logically conclude the safety requirement is not valuable. > > > > I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out of hand. Safety systems > are designed to save lives and protect from injury, and most of them do. I > am glad to have anti-lock brakes, smoke detectors and air bags. I have > also found it quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to work more safely > on solar circuits. > > > > Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts in the fire-response > community that can comment on the their side of the issue? If RSD is > really necessary for safety, then I will do my best to install good > equipment properly and hold manufacturers accountable for shoddy > solutions. If RSD is not that effective we need to discuss undoing the > code requirements. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *david quattro via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* david quattro > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience > > > > RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil > disobedience? > > I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and > refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the > bullshit in the aftermath. > > I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: > Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad > RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to > comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the > rest of your career? > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of > equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. > Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire > fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack > through the array to vent the roof? > > I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the roof > with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their > venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another > effort to block the wider adoption of solar. > > When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to > amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, > water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our > customers' lives better. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image088630.png Type: image/png Size: 40037 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image489307.png Type: image/png Size: 608 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image645183.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image992640.png Type: image/png Size: 804 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image243506.png Type: image/png Size: 499 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image797515.png Type: image/png Size: 596 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Feb 19 11:18:33 2025 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 10:18:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GEC tap Message-ID: Hi All, What are you all using for an "irreversible" tap to an existing GEC? I have been looking at compression CTAPs. Do they require a special crimper die? Thanks, Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Feb 19 11:30:56 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 08:30:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GEC tap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kris - We use C-taps all the time - if you search for c-tap connector you'll see plenty of results with Burndy being a big player in the market. Depending on your wire sizing, you might be able to use the thin wall variant which requires a smaller tool and overall are lower cost. If you need to tap #4 on up, you'll probably need a thick wall tap and larger tool. For the larger tool, we have a Greenlee model that has worked well. When you buy the C-tap you should be able to find the proper size tool die. For example, see page C-176 and C-177: https://hubbellcdn.com/ohwassets/HCE/burndy/catalogs/2020/Section%20C_Compression_2020%20BURNDY%20Master.pdf Note that for thin walled taps (page C-176) you can buy a tool with a rotating die, so one tool will do most sizes. Best, August On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 8:18 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > What are you all using for an "irreversible" tap to an existing GEC? I > have been looking at compression CTAPs. Do they require a special crimper > die? > > Thanks, > Kris > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Feb 19 12:03:12 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 10:03:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount portrait Message-ID: <2B408D19-8F1A-4F3B-A6FF-BC0244FC1CA9@gmail.com> I’m looking for some recommendations of low profile ( it’s an HOA) portrait ground mounts. Could be 6-12 panels wide, 400 wattish. Flat ground, minimal clearance needed. Thanks in advance Jay From wstahle at pacific.net Wed Feb 19 13:12:17 2025 From: wstahle at pacific.net (Wallace Stahle) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 10:12:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Mistake Conspiricy? In-Reply-To: <1739900282.807916875@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <5c53e8593fab9654db87c9a5de0fd6ed@redwoodalliance.org> <1739900282.807916875@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <21DFB7E2-46EB-4C82-88EB-C5987C1737C9@pacific.net> So Todd, What part of the idea or premise that an industry which produces, distributes and sells electric energy to end users at great profit, in PG&E's case at least, desires to exclude self generators from their grid and plans, lobbies and in fact conspires with other industry stakeholders to tilt the ground rules in their favor by way of the CA PUC is ”IDIOTIC”? To think an investor owned utility selling energy to end users is not working to limit those same end users from benefiting from self generation is naive at least. Or even idiotic maybe. Can you further define what part of this idea is idiotic vs rational on the utilities part to limit self generation? I understand this topic is not specific to wrenching and may not belong on this list but given that getting interconnection agreements seems to be critical to the list it may be a topic worth considering. Respectfully Wallace Stahle Future Electric Energy Co PO Box 236 Willits, CA 95490 707-459-0474 Lic.#C10-762093 future at pacific.net > On Feb 18, 2025, at 9:38 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Can we please keep these idiotic conspiracy theories off this list. > > Thank you... > > > > > > On Tuesday, February 18, 2025 7:13am, "Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches" said: > > Hi David, > > RSS is no mistake. The War on Solar is real. Due to a recent computer crash, I am having problems finding my links documenting the intentional attack on PV from the Koch Brothers and the utility industry in general. I will check on another computer that may still have the information. It is at a different location. > > I went on the Wrench list with my concerns when this was first proposed, until I was told to stop. Individual homeowner solar is viewed as a big problem for utility profits. There are other ways to safeguard firefighters. > > -- > Cheers, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Feb 19 13:43:36 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 10:43:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Mistake Conspiricy? In-Reply-To: <21DFB7E2-46EB-4C82-88EB-C5987C1737C9@pacific.net> References: <5c53e8593fab9654db87c9a5de0fd6ed@redwoodalliance.org> <1739900282.807916875@webmail.finestplanet.com> <21DFB7E2-46EB-4C82-88EB-C5987C1737C9@pacific.net> Message-ID: No comment other than there ought to be a place on the list where "in the weeds" type subjects can be discussed. Totally agree that if you do not want to see off topic comments the current policy is fine. Freedom of speech right! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-02-19 10:12 am, Wallace Stahle via RE-wrenches wrote: > So Todd, > What part of the idea or premise that an industry which produces, > distributes and sells electric energy to end users at great profit, in > PG&E's case at least, desires to exclude self generators from their > grid and plans, lobbies and in fact conspires with other industry > stakeholders to tilt the ground rules in their favor by way of the CA > PUC is "IDIOTIC"? > > To think an investor owned utility selling energy to end users is not > working to limit those same end users from benefiting from self > generation is naive at least. Or even idiotic maybe. > > Can you further define what part of this idea is idiotic vs rational on > the utilities part to limit self generation? > > I understand this topic is not specific to wrenching and may not belong > on this list but given that getting interconnection agreements seems to > be critical to the list it may be a topic worth considering. > Respectfully > > Wallace Stahle > Future Electric Energy Co > PO Box 236 > Willits, CA 95490 > 707-459-0474 > Lic.#C10-762093 > future at pacific.net > >> On Feb 18, 2025, at 9:38 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Can we please keep these idiotic conspiracy theories off this list. >> >> Thank you... >> >> On Tuesday, February 18, 2025 7:13am, "Drake Chamberlin via >> RE-wrenches" said: >> >> Hi David, >> >> RSS is no mistake. The War on Solar is real. Due to a recent computer >> crash, I am having problems finding my links documenting the >> intentional attack on PV from the Koch Brothers and the utility >> industry in general. I will check on another computer that may still >> have the information. It is at a different location. >> >> I went on the Wrench list with my concerns when this was first >> proposed, until I was told to stop. Individual homeowner solar is >> viewed as a big problem for utility profits. There are other ways to >> safeguard firefighters. >> >> -- >> Cheers, >> >> Drake >> >> _Drake Chamberlin_ >> _Athens Electric LLC_ >> _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ >> _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Feb 19 14:21:02 2025 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 11:21:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount portrait In-Reply-To: <2B408D19-8F1A-4F3B-A6FF-BC0244FC1CA9@gmail.com> References: <2B408D19-8F1A-4F3B-A6FF-BC0244FC1CA9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1B4AB1B0-59F9-431D-ACCE-8D2DDAFA92EA@sindelarsolar.com> If it’s for a New Mexico installation, you might call Jeff at Solar Rackworks in Albuquerque and will call to save shipping. Beautiful racks, and custom if necessary. 2x6. Allan > On Feb 19, 2025, at 9:04 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I’m looking for some recommendations of low profile ( it’s an HOA) portrait ground mounts. Could be 6-12 panels wide, 400 wattish. > > Flat ground, minimal clearance needed. > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Feb 19 16:22:37 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 16:22:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far Message-ID: When I fill out the online form to transfer an existing SolarEdge system to my company for monitoring, the site now takes me to a payment form demanding $99 to transfer the site monitoring. I have been told that as of 2/17/2025, SolarEdge has a new policy, and now changes for transferring a site to a new installer. WOW. Nobody wants to touch their hardware around here, and I must be the last one because SolarEdge tech support is literally giving customers my name when they can't find help. SolarEdge is done. Dead to me. They can find someone else to cover their warranty obligations. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Desing Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 826.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 67543 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Feb 19 16:46:12 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 14:46:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56456D46-97AC-4C7D-A3AA-336C53B829FD@gmail.com> Hi Jason, they might be dead as a company. Looking at their financials, as of sept 24 for y/y revenue: down 64% only 260 million income: down 1870% -1.21$ B net profit margin down 5380% operating income down 5004% -854$ million > On Feb 19, 2025, at 2:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > When I fill out the online form to transfer an existing SolarEdge system to my company for monitoring, the site now takes me to a payment form demanding $99 to transfer the site monitoring. > > I have been told that as of 2/17/2025, SolarEdge has a new policy, and now changes for transferring a site to a new installer. > > WOW. Nobody wants to touch their hardware around here, and I must be the last one because SolarEdge tech support is literally giving customers my name when they can't find help. > > SolarEdge is done. Dead to me. They can find someone else to cover their warranty obligations. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Desing Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Feb 19 18:20:01 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 18:20:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just wrote a scathing blog post, notified my staff not to take on new SolarEdge service clients, and blasted out messages and DMs on social media about this despicable new move by SolarEdge. Imagine being one of the many system owners impacted by solar contractors going out of business, only to find out that the manufacturer of your equipment wants to charge you to have a new willing contractor authorized to monitor and service your system. By contrast, Enphase owners can have as many contractors monitor their systems as they want, and they can initiate it themselves and for free, 24 hours a day without delay. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:22 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > When I fill out the online form to transfer an existing SolarEdge system > to my company for monitoring, the site now takes me to a payment form > demanding $99 to transfer the site monitoring. > > I have been told that as of 2/17/2025, SolarEdge has a new policy, and now > changes for transferring a site to a new installer. > > WOW. Nobody wants to touch their hardware around here, and I must be the > last one because SolarEdge tech support is literally giving customers my > name when they can't find help. > > SolarEdge is done. Dead to me. They can find someone else to cover their > warranty obligations. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Desing Group > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Wed Feb 19 18:31:47 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 15:31:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anybody got any recommendations for grid tied inverters especially ones that work with APSmart? I'm seeing a serious need for alternatives and not sure if I'm ready to go all in with enphase yet as I still have customers out there who got burnt from their early years and lack of compatability and solutions for their early generation systems. We've done solaredge for years and after the last round of outages here I've been doing service calls all week...noticing they aren't sending return labels for HDWave inverters anymore isn't a promising prospect.. Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Wed, Feb 19, 2025, 3:20 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I just wrote a scathing blog post, notified my staff not to take on new > SolarEdge service clients, and blasted out messages and DMs on social media > about this despicable new move by SolarEdge. Imagine being one of the many > system owners impacted by solar contractors going out of business, only to > find out that the manufacturer of your equipment wants to charge you to > have a new willing contractor authorized to monitor and service your system. > > By contrast, Enphase owners can have as many contractors monitor their > systems as they want, and they can initiate it themselves and for free, 24 > hours a day without delay. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:22 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> When I fill out the online form to transfer an existing SolarEdge system >> to my company for monitoring, the site now takes me to a payment form >> demanding $99 to transfer the site monitoring. >> >> I have been told that as of 2/17/2025, SolarEdge has a new policy, and >> now changes for transferring a site to a new installer. >> >> WOW. Nobody wants to touch their hardware around here, and I must be the >> last one because SolarEdge tech support is literally giving customers my >> name when they can't find help. >> >> SolarEdge is done. Dead to me. They can find someone else to cover their >> warranty obligations. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Desing Group >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Feb 19 18:40:04 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 18:40:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Midnite AIO has an APSmart transmitter built in. I will probably use that going forward for off-grid systems that require RSD. I never regretted sticking with Enphase, even after the early failures, but to be fair, my business hadn't ramped up much until the M250 came out, so I didn't have a ton of M190s out there. I happen to have forty M215 on my home with only one failure since installation! SolarEdge announced the stoppage of HDWave returns a while back, and now we have a graveyard of them that we are wondering how to address. Unfortunately, we have had to take quite a few to the local landfill, as we don't have dedicated e-waste here that I can find. I do think they separate it first because we have a waste to energy incinerator here. I'm not really sure how they deal with this type of waste, sadly. Jason On Wed, Feb 19, 2025, 6:31 PM Tyrone Houck wrote: > Anybody got any recommendations for grid tied inverters especially ones > that work with APSmart? I'm seeing a serious need for alternatives and not > sure if I'm ready to go all in with enphase yet as I still have customers > out there who got burnt from their early years and lack of compatability > and solutions for their early generation systems. We've done solaredge for > years and after the last round of outages here I've been doing service > calls all week...noticing they aren't sending return labels for HDWave > inverters anymore isn't a promising prospect.. > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2025, 3:20 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I just wrote a scathing blog post, notified my staff not to take on new >> SolarEdge service clients, and blasted out messages and DMs on social media >> about this despicable new move by SolarEdge. Imagine being one of the many >> system owners impacted by solar contractors going out of business, only to >> find out that the manufacturer of your equipment wants to charge you to >> have a new willing contractor authorized to monitor and service your system. >> >> By contrast, Enphase owners can have as many contractors monitor their >> systems as they want, and they can initiate it themselves and for free, 24 >> hours a day without delay. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:22 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> When I fill out the online form to transfer an existing SolarEdge system >>> to my company for monitoring, the site now takes me to a payment form >>> demanding $99 to transfer the site monitoring. >>> >>> I have been told that as of 2/17/2025, SolarEdge has a new policy, and >>> now changes for transferring a site to a new installer. >>> >>> WOW. Nobody wants to touch their hardware around here, and I must be the >>> last one because SolarEdge tech support is literally giving customers my >>> name when they can't find help. >>> >>> SolarEdge is done. Dead to me. They can find someone else to cover their >>> warranty obligations. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Desing Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Wed Feb 19 19:37:37 2025 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 00:37:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not going to defend Solaredge here, there are clearly better ways they could handle account transfers but the rah-rah Enphase conclusion is maddening. It wasn't that long ago Enphase did something far worse when they dropped their labor warranty and then told basically every m-series customer to pay them distribution prices for new Micros that would function for more than two months or risk spending thousands a year on labor replacing their early junk. Basically Enphase invalidated all their original 25 year warranties and then sold new product with their full margin to effectively captive customers. Meanwhile, as the installer, we were stuck fielding the angry customer phone calls wanting to understand how we misled them into Enphase. I guess Enphase managed to stay in business though.... Matt Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2025 6:20:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. I just wrote a scathing blog post, notified my staff not to take on new SolarEdge service clients, and blasted out messages and DMs on social media about this despicable new move by SolarEdge. Imagine being one of the many system owners impacted by solar contractors going out of business, only to find out that the manufacturer of your equipment wants to charge you to have a new willing contractor authorized to monitor and service your system. By contrast, Enphase owners can have as many contractors monitor their systems as they want, and they can initiate it themselves and for free, 24 hours a day without delay. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:22 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: When I fill out the online form to transfer an existing SolarEdge system to my company for monitoring, the site now takes me to a payment form demanding $99 to transfer the site monitoring. I have been told that as of 2/17/2025, SolarEdge has a new policy, and now changes for transferring a site to a new installer. WOW. Nobody wants to touch their hardware around here, and I must be the last one because SolarEdge tech support is literally giving customers my name when they can't find help. SolarEdge is done. Dead to me. They can find someone else to cover their warranty obligations. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Desing Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Feb 19 20:01:41 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 20:01:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Matt, are you not getting labor reimbursements on M190 microinverters that had 25-year labor warranties? I have few systems that meet that criteria, but I have been able to get labor reimbursement on them. Although, I don't recall doing any in the last several months. I'm guessing all of the M190s I had out there that were going to die already have, if the system owner hasn't. Okay, bad joke, but I do live in a retirement mecca where the average buyer is up there in years. Enphase did embark on an aggressive M-Series upgrade program that benefitted noone but Enphase in my opinion, but it was optional. I advised clients to steer clear and hold Enphase's feet to the fire, and we did so successfully. Charging a system OWNER a fee to allow monitoring access to THEIR system so a warranty claim can even be pursued is a despicable concept in my opinion. It shows utter contempt for customers (dealers and system owners alike). Enphase has always allowed any dealer to pursue a warranty claim on behalf of a client and fight on their behalf in accordance with the warranty terms. I consider myself wildly successful at supporting my clients in this regard, and I haven't had much frustration in that process. The only time I had issues was the period when customer service wait times became unacceptably long, but they heard their customers and resolved that. Having just personally replaced four M215 today on a system that I didn't install, I can look back on this particular claim as being handled efficiently and fairly, and the system owner was satisfied, even delighted, with the responsiveness of the manufacturer and cost of my services. In my opinion, no inverter manufacturer handles warranty claims as liberally and efficiently as Enphase. They aren't perfect by any means, but there is no comparison in my mind. Jason P.S. Again, to be fair, I don't love Enphase's warranty transfer fee. At least they cut it in half after backlash years ago. That's not the same as a manufacturer trying to weasel out of their warranty obligations, which On Wed, Feb 19, 2025, 7:37 PM Matt Partymiller wrote: > I'm not going to defend Solaredge here, there are clearly better ways they > could handle account transfers but the rah-rah Enphase conclusion is > maddening. > > It wasn't that long ago Enphase did something far worse when they dropped > their labor warranty and then told basically every m-series customer to pay > them distribution prices for new Micros that would function for more than > two months or risk spending thousands a year on labor replacing their early > junk. Basically Enphase invalidated all their original 25 year warranties > and then sold new product with their full margin to effectively captive > customers. Meanwhile, as the installer, we were stuck fielding the angry > customer phone calls wanting to understand how we misled them into Enphase. > I guess Enphase managed to stay in business though.... > > Matt > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone > Get Outlook for Android > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 19, 2025 6:20:01 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far > > Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > > I just wrote a scathing blog post, notified my staff not to take on new > SolarEdge service clients, and blasted out messages and DMs on social media > about this despicable new move by SolarEdge. Imagine being one of the many > system owners impacted by solar contractors going out of business, only to > find out that the manufacturer of your equipment wants to charge you to > have a new willing contractor authorized to monitor and service your system. > > By contrast, Enphase owners can have as many contractors monitor their > systems as they want, and they can initiate it themselves and for free, 24 > hours a day without delay. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:22 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > When I fill out the online form to transfer an existing SolarEdge system > to my company for monitoring, the site now takes me to a payment form > demanding $99 to transfer the site monitoring. > > I have been told that as of 2/17/2025, SolarEdge has a new policy, and now > changes for transferring a site to a new installer. > > WOW. Nobody wants to touch their hardware around here, and I must be the > last one because SolarEdge tech support is literally giving customers my > name when they can't find help. > > SolarEdge is done. Dead to me. They can find someone else to cover their > warranty obligations. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Desing Group > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Feb 19 20:58:11 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 20:58:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I will never promote, support, or use Enphase products again. My personal decision is a result of a 50% plus failure rate of the M series, as an early adopter. Now I am admittedly biased, regardless of their reputation now. Enphase tried to make it right, and I'm still replacing the replacements of the replacements 12 years later, sans-labor reimbursement. Yes, the latest micros w/adapters are still free under warranty. . We all know that through the years, every OEM has not lived up to expectations at times, be it products or support. For me, tolerance of some OEMs is different than others, depending on the particular problem and duration of it, individual OEM history, and customer reaction,etc. What are we, as individual installers, willing to put up with before we pull the plug on a manufacturer? It's an individual decision. History and relationships are right up there to support stay on board, or go. In the case of inverter RMAs, Vermont takes them for free at recycling centers, treating them as old electronics (ie. obsolete PC's). So we as a group don't have a dog in every policy fight that others may. Some OEM products & service policies are more of a thorn than others. Obviously, No one will ever come out with, or evolve into, perfect product or policy to make us all happy all the time. just my 2 cents worth On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:39 PM Matt Partymiller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm not going to defend Solaredge here, there are clearly better ways they > could handle account transfers but the rah-rah Enphase conclusion is > maddening. > > It wasn't that long ago Enphase did something far worse when they dropped > their labor warranty and then told basically every m-series customer to pay > them distribution prices for new Micros that would function for more than > two months or risk spending thousands a year on labor replacing their early > junk. Basically Enphase invalidated all their original 25 year warranties > and then sold new product with their full margin to effectively captive > customers. Meanwhile, as the installer, we were stuck fielding the angry > customer phone calls wanting to understand how we misled them into Enphase. > I guess Enphase managed to stay in business though.... > > Matt > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone > Get Outlook for Android > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 19, 2025 6:20:01 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far > > Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > > I just wrote a scathing blog post, notified my staff not to take on new > SolarEdge service clients, and blasted out messages and DMs on social media > about this despicable new move by SolarEdge. Imagine being one of the many > system owners impacted by solar contractors going out of business, only to > find out that the manufacturer of your equipment wants to charge you to > have a new willing contractor authorized to monitor and service your system. > > By contrast, Enphase owners can have as many contractors monitor their > systems as they want, and they can initiate it themselves and for free, 24 > hours a day without delay. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:22 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > When I fill out the online form to transfer an existing SolarEdge system > to my company for monitoring, the site now takes me to a payment form > demanding $99 to transfer the site monitoring. > > I have been told that as of 2/17/2025, SolarEdge has a new policy, and now > changes for transferring a site to a new installer. > > WOW. Nobody wants to touch their hardware around here, and I must be the > last one because SolarEdge tech support is literally giving customers my > name when they can't find help. > > SolarEdge is done. Dead to me. They can find someone else to cover their > warranty obligations. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Desing Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Feb 19 21:29:36 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 21:29:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's really interesting how different our experiences and perspectives are on these issues. I know a close colleague who still loves SolarEdge. We're still friends. :) I have also heard the XX%+ failure rate on M-Series experience before, which I find strange. I'm not suggesting it's not true, but it's far from my experience. The M190 clearly had issues, but the M215 and M250 were leaps and bounds better, and we had nowhere near that kind of failure rate experience. And I'm in arguably one of the most grueling environments in terms of heat and corrosive (coastal) environments, which is one of the fears people have always had against microinverters. Maybe the M-Series was more susceptible to cold weather issues (freeze/thaw issues). My home's M215 system is visibly beat up. Having been through 4 major hurricanes in its lifespan and having been removed and reinstalled once and used and abused for numerous training exercises, I really would have expected it to be a headache. But with only one microinveter failure in a decade, I am very happy. One system is obviously not statistically significant, but it goes to show that people have had widely different experiences with early generation microinverters. I regrettably installed a Soladeck AC aggregator on the roof with fuses and a combined feeder back to the interconnection point, but shockingly I have only replaced one fuse when it popped years ago. Other than that, smooth sailing with my M215 micros. I leave the one failed unit as it is to show clients what to expect in the monitoring system if a microinverter fails. Jason On Wed, Feb 19, 2025, 8:59 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I will never promote, support, or use Enphase products again. My personal > decision is a result of a 50% plus failure rate of the M series, as an > early adopter. Now I am admittedly biased, regardless of their reputation > now. > > Enphase tried to make it right, and I'm still replacing the replacements > of the replacements 12 years later, sans-labor reimbursement. Yes, > the latest micros w/adapters are still free under warranty. > . > We all know that through the years, every OEM has not lived up to > expectations at times, be it products or support. > > For me, tolerance of some OEMs is different than others, depending on the > particular problem and duration of it, individual OEM history, and customer > reaction,etc. > > What are we, as individual installers, willing to put up with before we > pull the plug on a manufacturer? It's an individual decision. History and > relationships are right up there to support stay on board, or go. > > In the case of inverter RMAs, Vermont takes them for free at recycling > centers, treating them as old electronics (ie. obsolete PC's). So we as a > group don't have a dog in every policy fight that others may. > > Some OEM products & service policies are more of a thorn than others. > Obviously, No one will ever come out with, or evolve into, perfect product > or policy to make us all happy all the time. > > just my 2 cents worth > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:39 PM Matt Partymiller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I'm not going to defend Solaredge here, there are clearly better ways >> they could handle account transfers but the rah-rah Enphase conclusion is >> maddening. >> >> It wasn't that long ago Enphase did something far worse when they dropped >> their labor warranty and then told basically every m-series customer to pay >> them distribution prices for new Micros that would function for more than >> two months or risk spending thousands a year on labor replacing their early >> junk. Basically Enphase invalidated all their original 25 year warranties >> and then sold new product with their full margin to effectively captive >> customers. Meanwhile, as the installer, we were stuck fielding the angry >> customer phone calls wanting to understand how we misled them into Enphase. >> I guess Enphase managed to stay in business though.... >> >> Matt >> >> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone >> Get Outlook for Android >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 19, 2025 6:20:01 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far >> >> Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or >> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is >> safe. >> >> I just wrote a scathing blog post, notified my staff not to take on new >> SolarEdge service clients, and blasted out messages and DMs on social media >> about this despicable new move by SolarEdge. Imagine being one of the many >> system owners impacted by solar contractors going out of business, only to >> find out that the manufacturer of your equipment wants to charge you to >> have a new willing contractor authorized to monitor and service your system. >> >> By contrast, Enphase owners can have as many contractors monitor their >> systems as they want, and they can initiate it themselves and for free, 24 >> hours a day without delay. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:22 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> When I fill out the online form to transfer an existing SolarEdge system >> to my company for monitoring, the site now takes me to a payment form >> demanding $99 to transfer the site monitoring. >> >> I have been told that as of 2/17/2025, SolarEdge has a new policy, and >> now changes for transferring a site to a new installer. >> >> WOW. Nobody wants to touch their hardware around here, and I must be the >> last one because SolarEdge tech support is literally giving customers my >> name when they can't find help. >> >> SolarEdge is done. Dead to me. They can find someone else to cover their >> warranty obligations. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Desing Group >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Wed Feb 19 22:51:58 2025 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 22:51:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GEC tap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kris, As far as I know, taps to GECs need not be irreversible. I believe you might be thinking of the NEC 250.64(C) requirement for GECs to be installed "in one continuous length" or otherwise be spliced together via one of several options, with one option being to use irreversible compression-type connectors—but I'm pretty sure that refers to *individual* GECs (as in, *each* GEC must either be run continuous or can be pieced together via irreversible means). It sounds like your scenario is a supply-side connection, which introduces an additional service equipment enclosure in the form of the PV system disconnect (additional to any existing service equipment) and would therefore be covered by NEC 250.64(D). One option, described in (D)(2), would be to run a new GEC from the PV system disconnect directly to the (existing) grounding electrode system. The other option*, described in (D)(1), is to run a GEC "tap" from the PV system disconnect to a "common" GEC. In cases where there is only a single existing service equipment enclosure - and therefore only a single existing GEC - my interpretation is that the existing GEC can serve as the common GEC (essentially doing double duty as a "common/tap" GEC, if it helps to think of it that way) and you can therefore connect the new GEC tap directly to it. Notably, this method allows for the use of "connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment"—we commonly use split bolts for the purpose. *There is also a third option [(D)(3)], but, in my experience, it is uncommon to have wireways on the supply side of service disconnects. So, I would suggest there is no need to use compression connectors - but you can certainly do so as an 'above-Code' measure. Corey Shalanski Cherry Street Energy Atlanta, GA On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 8:18 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > What are you all using for an "irreversible" tap to an existing GEC? I > have been looking at compression CTAPs. Do they require a special crimper > die? > > Thanks, > Kris > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Feb 20 12:01:55 2025 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 11:01:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GEC tap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Cory, I think that the supply side connection may require the irreversible splice since it is considered a service entrance. In some cases, the GE is not easily accessible (under concrete for example) to add a GEC to the GE directly. In any case, my AHJs do not like the split bolt connection and that is my reason for the inquiry. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 9:53 PM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Kris, > > As far as I know, taps to GECs need not be irreversible. I believe you > might be thinking of the NEC 250.64(C) requirement for GECs to be installed > "in one continuous length" or otherwise be spliced together via one of > several options, with one option being to use irreversible compression-type > connectors—but I'm pretty sure that refers to *individual* GECs (as in, > *each* GEC must either be run continuous or can be pieced together via > irreversible means). > > It sounds like your scenario is a supply-side connection, which introduces > an additional service equipment enclosure in the form of the PV system > disconnect (additional to any existing service equipment) and would > therefore be covered by NEC 250.64(D). One option, described in (D)(2), > would be to run a new GEC from the PV system disconnect directly to the > (existing) grounding electrode system. The other option*, described in > (D)(1), is to run a GEC "tap" from the PV system disconnect to a "common" > GEC. In cases where there is only a single existing service equipment > enclosure - and therefore only a single existing GEC - my interpretation is > that the existing GEC can serve as the common GEC (essentially doing double > duty as a "common/tap" GEC, if it helps to think of it that way) and you > can therefore connect the new GEC tap directly to it. Notably, this method > allows for the use of "connectors listed as grounding and bonding > equipment"—we commonly use split bolts for the purpose. > *There is also a third option [(D)(3)], but, in my experience, it is > uncommon to have wireways on the supply side of service disconnects. > > So, I would suggest there is no need to use compression connectors - but > you can certainly do so as an 'above-Code' measure. > > Corey Shalanski > Cherry Street Energy > Atlanta, GA > > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 8:18 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> What are you all using for an "irreversible" tap to an existing GEC? I >> have been looking at compression CTAPs. Do they require a special crimper >> die? >> >> Thanks, >> Kris >> >> >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 137 West 1st Avenue >> Luck, WI 54853 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Feb 20 12:06:05 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 12:06:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I made a decision to go w Enphase when Solar Edge was a viable competitor.  I did not like some aspects of Solar Edge, and I am glad I went with Enphase. I only install on this small island, 22 systems starting with M250's. Average project is 16 modules.  I have had only one microinverter failure, and it emailed me to let me know and then ordered the replacement.  The experiences do seem installer specific. Chris On 2/19/2025 9:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > It's really interesting how different our experiences and perspectives > are on these issues. I know a close colleague who still loves > SolarEdge. We're still friends. :) > > I have also heard the XX%+ failure rate on M-Series experience before, > which I find strange. I'm not suggesting it's not true, but it's far > from my experience. The M190 clearly had issues, but the M215 and M250 > were leaps and bounds better, and we had nowhere near that kind of > failure rate experience. And I'm in arguably one of the most grueling > environments in terms of heat and corrosive (coastal) environments, > which is one of the fears people have always had against > microinverters. Maybe the M-Series was more susceptible to cold > weather issues (freeze/thaw issues). > > My home's M215 system is visibly beat up. Having been through 4 major > hurricanes in its lifespan and having been removed and reinstalled > once and used and abused for numerous training exercises, I really > would have expected it to be a headache. But with only one > microinveter failure in a decade, I am very happy. One system is > obviously not statistically significant, but it goes to show that > people have had widely different experiences with early generation > microinverters. > > I regrettably installed a Soladeck AC aggregator on the roof with > fuses and a combined feeder back to the interconnection point, but > shockingly I have only replaced one fuse when it popped years ago. > Other than that, smooth sailing with my M215 micros. I leave the one > failed unit as it is to show clients what to expect in the monitoring > system if a microinverter fails. > > Jason > > > > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2025, 8:59 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I will never promote, support, or use Enphase products again. My > personal decision is a result of a 50% plus failure rate of the M > series, as an early adopter. Now I am admittedly biased, > regardless of their reputation now. > > Enphase tried to make it right, and I'm still replacing the > replacements of the replacements 12 years later, sans-labor > reimbursement. Yes, the latest micros w/adapters are still free > under warranty. > . > We all know that through the years, every OEM has not lived up to > expectations at times, be it products or support. > > For me, tolerance of some OEMs is different than others, > depending on the particular problem and duration of it, > individual OEM history, and customer reaction,etc. > > What are we, as individual installers, willing to put up with > before we pull the plug on a manufacturer? It's an individual > decision. History and relationships are right up there to support > stay on board, or go. > > In the case of inverter RMAs, Vermont takes them for free at > recycling centers, treating them as old electronics > (ie. obsolete PC's). So we as a group don't have a dog in every > policy fight that others may. > > Some OEM products & service policies are more of a thorn than > others. Obviously, No one will ever come out with, or evolve into, > perfect product or policy to make us all happy all the time. > > just my 2 cents worth > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:39 PM Matt Partymiller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I'm not going to defend Solaredge here, there are clearly > better ways they could handle account transfers but the > rah-rah Enphase conclusion is maddening. > > It wasn't that long ago Enphase did something far worse when > they dropped their labor warranty and then told basically > every m-series customer to pay them distribution prices for > new Micros that would function for more than two months or > risk spending thousands a year on labor replacing their early > junk. Basically Enphase invalidated all their original 25 year > warranties and then sold new product with their full margin to > effectively captive customers. Meanwhile, as the installer, we > were stuck fielding the angry customer phone calls wanting to > understand how we misled them into Enphase. I guess Enphase > managed to stay in business though.... > > Matt > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone > Get Outlook for Android > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jason > Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 19, 2025 6:20:01 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far > > > Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click > links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and > know the content is safe. > > > I just wrote a scathing blog post, notified my staff not to > take on new SolarEdge service clients, and blasted out > messages and DMs on social media about this despicable new > move by SolarEdge. Imagine being one of the many system owners > impacted by solar contractors going out of business, only to > find out that the manufacturer of your equipment wants to > charge you to have a new willing contractor authorized to > monitor and service your system. > > By contrast, Enphase owners can have as many contractors > monitor their systems as they want, and they can initiate it > themselves and for free, 24 hours a day without delay. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:22 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > When I fill out the online form to transfer an existing > SolarEdge system to my company for monitoring, the site > now takes me to a payment form demanding $99 to transfer > the site monitoring. > > I have been told that as of 2/17/2025, SolarEdge has a new > policy, and now changes for transferring a site to a new > installer. > > WOW. Nobody wants to touch their hardware around here, and > I must be the last one because SolarEdge tech support is > literally giving customers my name when they can't find help. > > SolarEdge is done. Dead to me. They can find someone else > to cover their warranty obligations. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Desing Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > */Celebrating our 34^st  Anniversary 1991-2025!!/* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Feb 20 12:37:43 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 12:37:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GEC tap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Around here, AHJs require that the GEC is not connected to the service disconnect or any supply-side interconnected PV AC disconnect. They require a GEC from the meter socket enclosure to the GE system with a N-G bond in the meter enclosure (the N and G lugs are one and the same typically anyway in a meter enclosure). The GEC must be continuous or irreversibly spliced from the meter socket to the ground rods or a confirmable ufer ground or other approved GE system. The service disconnect is connected to the meter socket lugs with L1, L2, and N with no equipment grounding conductor, although in many circumstances, the meter enclosure is electrically bonded to the service disconnect enclosure if a metallic raceway is used. The service disconnect is bonded (N-G). And supply side interconnected disconnects only have L1, L2, and N with no EGC, and they are also bonded. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:53 PM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Kris, > > As far as I know, taps to GECs need not be irreversible. I believe you > might be thinking of the NEC 250.64(C) requirement for GECs to be installed > "in one continuous length" or otherwise be spliced together via one of > several options, with one option being to use irreversible compression-type > connectors—but I'm pretty sure that refers to *individual* GECs (as in, > *each* GEC must either be run continuous or can be pieced together via > irreversible means). > > It sounds like your scenario is a supply-side connection, which introduces > an additional service equipment enclosure in the form of the PV system > disconnect (additional to any existing service equipment) and would > therefore be covered by NEC 250.64(D). One option, described in (D)(2), > would be to run a new GEC from the PV system disconnect directly to the > (existing) grounding electrode system. The other option*, described in > (D)(1), is to run a GEC "tap" from the PV system disconnect to a "common" > GEC. In cases where there is only a single existing service equipment > enclosure - and therefore only a single existing GEC - my interpretation is > that the existing GEC can serve as the common GEC (essentially doing double > duty as a "common/tap" GEC, if it helps to think of it that way) and you > can therefore connect the new GEC tap directly to it. Notably, this method > allows for the use of "connectors listed as grounding and bonding > equipment"—we commonly use split bolts for the purpose. > *There is also a third option [(D)(3)], but, in my experience, it is > uncommon to have wireways on the supply side of service disconnects. > > So, I would suggest there is no need to use compression connectors - but > you can certainly do so as an 'above-Code' measure. > > Corey Shalanski > Cherry Street Energy > Atlanta, GA > > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 8:18 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> What are you all using for an "irreversible" tap to an existing GEC? I >> have been looking at compression CTAPs. Do they require a special crimper >> die? >> >> Thanks, >> Kris >> >> >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 137 West 1st Avenue >> Luck, WI 54853 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Feb 20 12:39:19 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 09:39:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you go back and look at the stock price, Enphase was just about to go bankrupt in the 2017 period. They had just released their IQ micros which were quite reliable but were riddled by a bad reputation from prior generations with high failures, particularly M190/M210s. We were one of those companies that had thousands of older micros installed and they were failing left and right. They got a new CEO and totally changed things around - it seems like they did a good job of supporting the installers and buying back trust in their product. Afterall, if installers don't trust a product they won't recommend it to their clients. Reliability is key! It seems to me that SolarEdge is in a similar situation now. Their stock has totally tanked and installers don't generally have trust in product reliability. They have had way too many dead on arrival inverters (or failing shortly after install) and optimizers and for some reason just haven't been able to buck that trend. It is a particularly horrible experience for clients when their systems don't work well from the very start. Maybe they have increased reliability now, I don't know. Anyway, I hope SolarEdge is able to get product reliability up and get back trust from the installers. August On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 9:07 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I made a decision to go w Enphase when Solar Edge was a viable > competitor. I did not like some aspects of Solar Edge, and I am glad I > went with Enphase. I only install on this small island, 22 systems starting > with M250's. Average project is 16 modules. I have had only one > microinverter failure, and it emailed me to let me know and then ordered > the replacement. The experiences do seem installer specific. Chris > On 2/19/2025 9:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > It's really interesting how different our experiences and perspectives are > on these issues. I know a close colleague who still loves SolarEdge. We're > still friends. :) > > I have also heard the XX%+ failure rate on M-Series experience before, > which I find strange. I'm not suggesting it's not true, but it's far from > my experience. The M190 clearly had issues, but the M215 and M250 were > leaps and bounds better, and we had nowhere near that kind of failure rate > experience. And I'm in arguably one of the most grueling environments in > terms of heat and corrosive (coastal) environments, which is one of the > fears people have always had against microinverters. Maybe the M-Series was > more susceptible to cold weather issues (freeze/thaw issues). > > My home's M215 system is visibly beat up. Having been through 4 major > hurricanes in its lifespan and having been removed and reinstalled once and > used and abused for numerous training exercises, I really would have > expected it to be a headache. But with only one microinveter failure in a > decade, I am very happy. One system is obviously not statistically > significant, but it goes to show that people have had widely different > experiences with early generation microinverters. > > I regrettably installed a Soladeck AC aggregator on the roof with fuses > and a combined feeder back to the interconnection point, but shockingly I > have only replaced one fuse when it popped years ago. Other than that, > smooth sailing with my M215 micros. I leave the one failed unit as it is to > show clients what to expect in the monitoring system if a microinverter > fails. > > Jason > > > > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2025, 8:59 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I will never promote, support, or use Enphase products again. My personal >> decision is a result of a 50% plus failure rate of the M series, as an >> early adopter. Now I am admittedly biased, regardless of their reputation >> now. >> >> Enphase tried to make it right, and I'm still replacing the replacements >> of the replacements 12 years later, sans-labor reimbursement. Yes, >> the latest micros w/adapters are still free under warranty. >> . >> We all know that through the years, every OEM has not lived up to >> expectations at times, be it products or support. >> >> For me, tolerance of some OEMs is different than others, depending on the >> particular problem and duration of it, individual OEM history, and customer >> reaction,etc. >> >> What are we, as individual installers, willing to put up with before we >> pull the plug on a manufacturer? It's an individual decision. History and >> relationships are right up there to support stay on board, or go. >> >> In the case of inverter RMAs, Vermont takes them for free at recycling >> centers, treating them as old electronics (ie. obsolete PC's). So we as a >> group don't have a dog in every policy fight that others may. >> >> Some OEM products & service policies are more of a thorn than others. >> Obviously, No one will ever come out with, or evolve into, perfect product >> or policy to make us all happy all the time. >> >> just my 2 cents worth >> >> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:39 PM Matt Partymiller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I'm not going to defend Solaredge here, there are clearly better ways >>> they could handle account transfers but the rah-rah Enphase conclusion is >>> maddening. >>> >>> It wasn't that long ago Enphase did something far worse when they >>> dropped their labor warranty and then told basically every m-series >>> customer to pay them distribution prices for new Micros that would function >>> for more than two months or risk spending thousands a year on labor >>> replacing their early junk. Basically Enphase invalidated all their >>> original 25 year warranties and then sold new product with their full >>> margin to effectively captive customers. Meanwhile, as the installer, we >>> were stuck fielding the angry customer phone calls wanting to understand >>> how we misled them into Enphase. I guess Enphase managed to stay in >>> business though.... >>> >>> Matt >>> >>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>> behalf of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 19, 2025 6:20:01 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far >>> >>> >>> Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or >>> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is >>> safe. >>> >>> I just wrote a scathing blog post, notified my staff not to take on new >>> SolarEdge service clients, and blasted out messages and DMs on social media >>> about this despicable new move by SolarEdge. Imagine being one of the many >>> system owners impacted by solar contractors going out of business, only to >>> find out that the manufacturer of your equipment wants to charge you to >>> have a new willing contractor authorized to monitor and service your system. >>> >>> By contrast, Enphase owners can have as many contractors monitor their >>> systems as they want, and they can initiate it themselves and for free, 24 >>> hours a day without delay. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:22 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>> When I fill out the online form to transfer an existing SolarEdge system >>> to my company for monitoring, the site now takes me to a payment form >>> demanding $99 to transfer the site monitoring. >>> >>> I have been told that as of 2/17/2025, SolarEdge has a new policy, and >>> now changes for transferring a site to a new installer. >>> >>> WOW. Nobody wants to touch their hardware around here, and I must be the >>> last one because SolarEdge tech support is literally giving customers my >>> name when they can't find help. >>> >>> SolarEdge is done. Dead to me. They can find someone else to cover their >>> warranty obligations. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Desing Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Feb 20 12:52:52 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 12:52:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Firmware Mismatch Issue Message-ID: This is a PSA for Enphase installers. There is a known issue with new systems that have a mix of two firmwares out of the box. The last few systems we have installed had microinverters from different batches with the below two firmwares. It causes all of the r06 microinverters to intermittently stop producing power. The solution is to update the firmware on all microinverters, but customer service needs to escalate that request to engineering to make that happen. They have been turning around resolutions within 24 hours, in my experience. 521-00005-r05-v02.48.01 521-00005-r06-v02.61.01 So, if you see several microinverters not producing power or not as much power as others, check the firmware in your Device List in Enlighten Manager. FYI, don't rely on the "assembly part number" because sometimes they can be the same, but still have different firmware out of the box. So far, I have seen this issue on IQ8M and IQ8A. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Feb 20 13:40:24 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 13:40:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] capacitive "super batteries" and H2 Message-ID: All, www.encap.energy - batteries www.enapter.com - H2 components Any thoughts on capacitive storage, and specifically Encap capacitive batteries with H2? I have a customer with his heart set on using these batteries etc.for a major RE system expansion. Already using an Enapter sourced electrolyser and fuel cell, Encap bank provides DC input to a standard Sol-Ark inverter. Which I did not see or approve beforehand or install. Being used as a prototype back up system at present. Minimal testing so far. Definitely not ready for prime time. First thing I see in the Encap website specs is no mention of UL approval of the batteries. Fuel cell OEM is called Enapter. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 20 16:01:17 2025 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 15:01:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] capacitive "super batteries" and H2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, this is from an old guy. In the 1960s, our project found that hydrogen tended to migrate through electrolyzing and could put hydrogen into an oxygen tank. Energy is involved in pressuring the hydrogen. All piping has to be more than 5% chrome to prevent hydrogen embrittlement. The Gibbs function limits electrolysis to about 75% efficiency, and the fuel cell is limited to about 75% efficiency. The product is 56% efficient. The Supercapacitor tends to be challenging to work with as E=CxV^2. The voltage of supercapacitors tends to be low, 2.5 volts, and difficult to series, leading to a high loss. I used a supercapacitor to operate a blinking LED beacon. I think the charged voltage was 4.5 volts. On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 12:41 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > All, > www.encap.energy - batteries > > www.enapter.com - H2 components > > > Any thoughts on capacitive storage, and specifically Encap capacitive > batteries with H2? > > I have a customer with his heart set on using these batteries etc.for a > major RE system expansion. Already using an Enapter sourced electrolyser > and fuel cell, Encap bank provides DC input to a standard Sol-Ark inverter. > Which I did not see or approve beforehand or install. Being used as a > prototype back up system at present. Minimal testing so far. Definitely not > ready for prime time. > > First thing I see in the Encap website specs is no mention of UL > approval of the batteries. Fuel cell OEM is called Enapter. > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Feb 20 21:37:08 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2025 21:37:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GEC tap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94cc8bd05038fe0b29d5a840f76bc73d@redwoodalliance.org> Crimp on "C" clamps meet code, but sometimes are not that secure of a connection. _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-02-20 12:01, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote: > Thanks Cory, > > I think that the supply side connection may require the irreversible > splice since it is considered a service entrance. In some cases, the > GE is not easily accessible (under concrete for example) to add a GEC > to the GE directly. In any case, my AHJs do not like the split bolt > connection and that is my reason for the inquiry. > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com [1] > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 9:53 PM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Kris, > > As far as I know, taps to GECs need not be irreversible. I believe you > might be thinking of the NEC 250.64(C) requirement for GECs to be > installed "in one continuous length" or otherwise be spliced together > via one of several options, with one option being to use irreversible > compression-type connectors--but I'm pretty sure that refers to > *individual* GECs (as in, *each* GEC must either be run continuous or > can be pieced together via irreversible means). > > It sounds like your scenario is a supply-side connection, which > introduces an additional service equipment enclosure in the form of the > PV system disconnect (additional to any existing service equipment) and > would therefore be covered by NEC 250.64(D). One option, described in > (D)(2), would be to run a new GEC from the PV system disconnect > directly to the (existing) grounding electrode system. The other > option*, described in (D)(1), is to run a GEC "tap" from the PV system > disconnect to a "common" GEC. In cases where there is only a single > existing service equipment enclosure - and therefore only a single > existing GEC - my interpretation is that the existing GEC can serve as > the common GEC (essentially doing double duty as a "common/tap" GEC, if > it helps to think of it that way) and you can therefore connect the new > GEC tap directly to it. Notably, this method allows for the use of > "connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment"--we commonly use > split bolts for the purpose. > *There is also a third option [(D)(3)], but, in my experience, it is > uncommon to have wireways on the supply side of service disconnects. > > So, I would suggest there is no need to use compression connectors - > but you can certainly do so as an 'above-Code' measure. > > Corey Shalanski > Cherry Street Energy > Atlanta, GA > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 8:18 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi All, > > What are you all using for an "irreversible" tap to an existing GEC? I > have been looking at compression CTAPs. Do they require a special > crimper die? > > Thanks, > Kris > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com [1] > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.legacysolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Feb 21 09:10:41 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2025 09:10:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower AC Modules non-Enphase Message-ID: I was contacted by a homeowner with a bunch of spr-x21-350-blk-d-ac that were removed for roof replacement right around the time that SunPower went bankrupt. All the cabling is missing, and I'm not sure if the monitoring system is even viable anymore. Any suggestions for how to handle this? I think the IQ8X microinverter might be compatible and the DC leads from the panel might be long enough if I frame mount the microinverter or carefully position microinverters on the rail. The other issue I have is all of the proprietary clamps for these panels are missing. Can these panels be top clamped with standard UFO or other mid clamps? I have been helping quite a few people get systems with SunPower branded Enphase microinverters converted over to the Enlighten monitoring portal, but I am not familiar with the microinverters on the spr-x21-350-blk-d-ac. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jelmlinger at gmail.com Fri Feb 21 09:28:58 2025 From: jelmlinger at gmail.com (Jamie Elmlinger) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2025 09:28:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower AC Modules non-Enphase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Jason, I think I can confirm a couple of things, but I'll include the spec sheet for you as well. That micro is just a white labeled Enphase. Believe it or not they are still being installed today. So if it's the same module I think it is, you can install them just like normal. However, the tricky part is module thickness, you can't use the new Ironridge stopper sleeve and you have to find the matching stopper sleeve to go with a UFO that supply has dwindled on. I haven't found any other mids and ends to accommodate. I know Pegasus is working on it. Hope this helps. On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 9:11 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I was contacted by a homeowner with a bunch of spr-x21-350-blk-d-ac that > were removed for roof replacement right around the time that SunPower went > bankrupt. All the cabling is missing, and I'm not sure if the monitoring > system is even viable anymore. > > Any suggestions for how to handle this? I think the IQ8X microinverter > might be compatible and the DC leads from the panel might be long enough if > I frame mount the microinverter or carefully position microinverters on the > rail. > > The other issue I have is all of the proprietary clamps for these panels > are missing. Can these panels be top clamped with standard UFO or other mid > clamps? > > I have been helping quite a few people get systems with SunPower branded > Enphase microinverters converted over to the Enlighten monitoring portal, > but I am not familiar with the microinverters on the spr-x21-350-blk-d-ac. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Sunpower - spr-x21-350-blk-e-ac-x21-335-blk-e-ac-x20-327-blk-e-ac-datasheet-531946-revc_NnLXnFR (1).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 317843 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Feb 21 09:30:53 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2025 06:30:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower AC Modules non-Enphase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason - The “d” series micros on the back of those 350 mods are from Solarbridge and probably need to be scrapped. Enphase, the last I checked, was offering their upgrade program pricing for these mods so if you contact them they will set you up with a kit of new micros and a IQ Combiner for monitoring for a good price. Then, you just wire them up like a new Enphase system. For racking, it isn’t any problem to rack these mods up with non-SunPower racking such as IronRidge and their top clamps. August On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 6:11 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I was contacted by a homeowner with a bunch of spr-x21-350-blk-d-ac that > were removed for roof replacement right around the time that SunPower went > bankrupt. All the cabling is missing, and I'm not sure if the monitoring > system is even viable anymore. > > Any suggestions for how to handle this? I think the IQ8X microinverter > might be compatible and the DC leads from the panel might be long enough if > I frame mount the microinverter or carefully position microinverters on the > rail. > > The other issue I have is all of the proprietary clamps for these panels > are missing. Can these panels be top clamped with standard UFO or other mid > clamps? > > I have been helping quite a few people get systems with SunPower branded > Enphase microinverters converted over to the Enlighten monitoring portal, > but I am not familiar with the microinverters on the spr-x21-350-blk-d-ac. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Feb 21 09:42:04 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2025 09:42:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower AC Modules non-Enphase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Solarbridge. That's the one. I could not remember the name of the manufacturer. I did not realize Enphase had an upgrade program for these. I will reach out to my sales rep. That is a great idea. Thanks! I think the frame depth is going to be an issue for UFOs on the ends. I did not take a close look to see if CAMOs would work. I might have to source some 50 mm stopper sleeves. It's a tough conversation these days, because even though they have a perfectly viable 350 watt panel, the perceived value of that panel is nowhere near the cost of a brand new 410W panel with a new warranty. Jason On Fri, Feb 21, 2025, 9:31 AM August Goers wrote: > Hi Jason - The “d” series micros on the back of those 350 mods are from > Solarbridge and probably need to be scrapped. Enphase, the last I checked, > was offering their upgrade program pricing for these mods so if you contact > them they will set you up with a kit of new micros and a IQ Combiner for > monitoring for a good price. Then, you just wire them up like a new Enphase > system. > > For racking, it isn’t any problem to rack these mods up with non-SunPower > racking such as IronRidge and their top clamps. > > August > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 6:11 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I was contacted by a homeowner with a bunch of spr-x21-350-blk-d-ac that >> were removed for roof replacement right around the time that SunPower went >> bankrupt. All the cabling is missing, and I'm not sure if the monitoring >> system is even viable anymore. >> >> Any suggestions for how to handle this? I think the IQ8X microinverter >> might be compatible and the DC leads from the panel might be long enough if >> I frame mount the microinverter or carefully position microinverters on the >> rail. >> >> The other issue I have is all of the proprietary clamps for these panels >> are missing. Can these panels be top clamped with standard UFO or other mid >> clamps? >> >> I have been helping quite a few people get systems with SunPower branded >> Enphase microinverters converted over to the Enlighten monitoring portal, >> but I am not familiar with the microinverters on the spr-x21-350-blk-d-ac. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Feb 21 09:47:46 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2025 06:47:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower AC Modules non-Enphase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jamie - the mods you included the spec sheet for are “E” series micros which are in fact Enphase IQ7 micros. The Mods that Jason has are older, with d series micros according to the part number he posted. SunPower monitoring can be switched over to Enphase for a fee as long as the mods include Enphase micros. It’s interesting to hear about the potential conflict with mid clamps and Enphase invisimount clamps. As far as I know, we have used IronRidge with SunPower InvisiMount frames many times with no issues. The IronRidge XR rail manual specifies that they are compatible, see page 28: https://files.ironridge.com/pitched-roof-mounting/resources/brochures/IronRidge_Flush_Mount_Installation_Manual.pdf Best, August On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 6:30 AM Jamie Elmlinger via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey Jason, > I think I can confirm a couple of things, but I'll include the spec sheet > for you as well. > That micro is just a white labeled Enphase. Believe it or not they are > still being installed today. > So if it's the same module I think it is, you can install them just like > normal. However, the tricky part is module thickness, you can't use the > new Ironridge stopper sleeve and you have to find the matching stopper > sleeve to go with a UFO that supply has dwindled on. I haven't found any > other mids and ends to accommodate. I know Pegasus is working on it. > Hope this helps. > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 9:11 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I was contacted by a homeowner with a bunch of spr-x21-350-blk-d-ac that >> were removed for roof replacement right around the time that SunPower went >> bankrupt. All the cabling is missing, and I'm not sure if the monitoring >> system is even viable anymore. >> >> Any suggestions for how to handle this? I think the IQ8X microinverter >> might be compatible and the DC leads from the panel might be long enough if >> I frame mount the microinverter or carefully position microinverters on the >> rail. >> >> The other issue I have is all of the proprietary clamps for these panels >> are missing. Can these panels be top clamped with standard UFO or other mid >> clamps? >> >> I have been helping quite a few people get systems with SunPower branded >> Enphase microinverters converted over to the Enlighten monitoring portal, >> but I am not familiar with the microinverters on the spr-x21-350-blk-d-ac. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Feb 21 15:48:46 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2025 12:48:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kohler 24RCLA Programming Message-ID: Friends: I need to learn how to program a Kohler 24RCLA for exercise cycle and cool-down time and maybe other functions. Does anyone have a reference manual for that they could share that covers all of the programmable parameters? Thanks in advance. William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Feb 21 15:52:11 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2025 12:52:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator failure alarm Message-ID: <24094ee49e2fce7d11cde92fa962032c@mail.gmail.com> Colleagues: Is anyone aware of an off-the-shelf device that will give me a contact closure if a generator is called and does not produce AC after a set amount of time? I am sure I could design and build one but before I do I’d like to see if there is a ready-made version. I hope I am not making a pest of myself asking so many questions… Thanks in advance. William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Feb 21 16:15:43 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2025 14:15:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kohler 24RCLA Programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <020793F5-48E3-4F4B-AC29-C7EE11A6127B@gmail.com> Is this for use with an inverter and if so which inverter. Jay > On Feb 21, 2025, at 1:49 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Friends: > > I need to learn how to program a Kohler 24RCLA for exercise cycle and cool-down time and maybe other functions. Does anyone have a reference manual for that they could share that covers all of the programmable parameters? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Feb 21 18:09:13 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2025 18:09:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower AC Modules non-Enphase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can confirm that Enphase has an upgrade program that covers this and even other manufacturer conversions. I was provided a quote to get this system converted. The discount is not dramatic compared to my distribution pricing, but anything helps, and the program adds some legitimacy to the conversion process from the SolarBridge obsolete equipment. It's something I can present to my clients transparently to see if they want to proceed. I think we are on a good path for this client. Thank you, August, for that recommendation! Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 9:42 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Solarbridge. That's the one. I could not remember the name of the > manufacturer. > > I did not realize Enphase had an upgrade program for these. I will reach > out to my sales rep. That is a great idea. Thanks! > > I think the frame depth is going to be an issue for UFOs on the ends. I > did not take a close look to see if CAMOs would work. I might have to > source some 50 mm stopper sleeves. > > It's a tough conversation these days, because even though they have a > perfectly viable 350 watt panel, the perceived value of that panel is > nowhere near the cost of a brand new 410W panel with a new warranty. > > Jason > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2025, 9:31 AM August Goers wrote: > >> Hi Jason - The “d” series micros on the back of those 350 mods are from >> Solarbridge and probably need to be scrapped. Enphase, the last I checked, >> was offering their upgrade program pricing for these mods so if you contact >> them they will set you up with a kit of new micros and a IQ Combiner for >> monitoring for a good price. Then, you just wire them up like a new Enphase >> system. >> >> For racking, it isn’t any problem to rack these mods up with non-SunPower >> racking such as IronRidge and their top clamps. >> >> August >> >> On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 6:11 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I was contacted by a homeowner with a bunch of spr-x21-350-blk-d-ac that >>> were removed for roof replacement right around the time that SunPower went >>> bankrupt. All the cabling is missing, and I'm not sure if the monitoring >>> system is even viable anymore. >>> >>> Any suggestions for how to handle this? I think the IQ8X microinverter >>> might be compatible and the DC leads from the panel might be long enough if >>> I frame mount the microinverter or carefully position microinverters on the >>> rail. >>> >>> The other issue I have is all of the proprietary clamps for these panels >>> are missing. Can these panels be top clamped with standard UFO or other mid >>> clamps? >>> >>> I have been helping quite a few people get systems with SunPower branded >>> Enphase microinverters converted over to the Enlighten monitoring portal, >>> but I am not familiar with the microinverters on the spr-x21-350-blk-d-ac. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Fri Feb 21 18:41:01 2025 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2025 15:41:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO on PGE NEM Message-ID: <1952ae2cb15.f0a562c3508963.5032705705322873862@greenwired.com> Has anyone had any luck getting the new Midnite AIO through PGE NEM yet? If so what was your experience?  Andrew Perkins Greenwired Purchasing Manger | Technical sales P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 M: 707-932-5595 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd P.O. Box 1686 Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: GreenWired_-_Badge_Logo_-_Color_1.png Type: image/png Size: 111621 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Feb 21 22:14:46 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2025 19:14:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kohler 24RCLA Programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, William, Programming of the Kohler via the controller is very straightforward from date to fuel, including exercise, Arrow up or down and the center button for enter, However as I recall it must be commissioned by a Kohler rep and they will do all the set up, Fun Times On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 12:49 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I need to learn how to program a Kohler 24RCLA for exercise cycle and > cool-down time and maybe other functions. Does anyone have a reference > manual for that they could share that covers all of the programmable > parameters? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Feb 22 08:07:46 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 08:07:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automatic Dark Start of Depleted Lithium Batteries Message-ID: I have been thinking a lot recently about the reasons off-grid systems can shut down, and working on strategies to prevent these nuisances that require manual intervention. Ideally, a BMS should never shut down due to low voltage/SOC because a properly programmed inverter should reach it's cut off well before the BMS decides it needs to protect the battery, especially where there is closed loop communication. But let's say that happens, where the BMS does make the DC battery output go to zero. It seems to me like the inverter should be able to start a generator, and then signal to the BMS that a charging source is available. But I'm not aware of any system that actually does this. The inverter should be able to wake up the battery. I can see this being particularly possible where one manufacturer is writing the code (I'm thinking Midnite AIO/Powerflo). Of course, the inverter would have to have power in order to do that, so if it's nighttime and there is no PV, the inverter power would need to come from somewhere. I have two thoughts. First, someone could manually start the generator, waking up the inverter, but they would not have to reset the BMS if the inverter told it to wake up. The second way would be for the inverter to somehow close the 2-wire start circuit upon inverter shutdown, restoring power to the inverter automatically. If those are not options, an external NO relay powered by the inverter output could be added to the 2-wire start circuit, perhaps with a time delay to return to the NO position to allow the generator to remain powered until the inverter does it's thing and starts charging the batteries. Anyway, my question is whether any inverter/battery combination out there works in a way that the inverter tells the battery there is a charging source available to wake up the BMS and reconnect DC power. And if not, why? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Feb 22 08:59:37 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 08:59:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kohler 24RCLA Programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can confirm the part about needing a Kohler dealer to get into some functions. I recently removed a transfer switch for a Kohler and converted it to a two-wire start (which was dead easy), but I could not get it to stop throwing an error stating that the transfer switch was not found. It did not affect the automatic start functionality whatsoever, but the error message was annoying. I told the homeowner he would need to get his Kohler dealer out there to stop the message, but I never heard if or how that was done. I could not get into the menus to figure it out. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 10:16 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, William, > Programming of the Kohler via the controller is very straightforward from > date to fuel, including exercise, Arrow up or down and the center button > for enter, However as I recall it must be commissioned by a Kohler rep and > they will do all the set up, > Fun Times > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 12:49 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I need to learn how to program a Kohler 24RCLA for exercise cycle and >> cool-down time and maybe other functions. Does anyone have a reference >> manual for that they could share that covers all of the programmable >> parameters? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Feb 22 10:33:18 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 15:33:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offset charge rates vs system sizing to meet 100% production Message-ID: I am wondering if anyone else has this offset on Kwhr net meter discrepancy & how to design accurately design for this discrepancy. Idaho Powers' version of net metering goes like this: 1 KW received from IPC charge is $ 0.09/Kwhr & solar input into the grid you are credited $0.04/Kwhr. The difference is 44.44% in the exchange for purchased vs solar export rate. So, will oversizing the solar system by 44% to achieve a goal of 100% production of a client's current 100% usage achieve this goal? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 10:39:46 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 07:39:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automatic Dark Start of Depleted Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I like where your going with this Jason On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 5:08 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have been thinking a lot recently about the reasons off-grid systems can > shut down, and working on strategies to prevent these nuisances that > require manual intervention. > > Ideally, a BMS should never shut down due to low voltage/SOC because a > properly programmed inverter should reach it's cut off well before the BMS > decides it needs to protect the battery, especially where there is closed > loop communication. But let's say that happens, where the BMS does make the > DC battery output go to zero. > > It seems to me like the inverter should be able to start a generator, and > then signal to the BMS that a charging source is available. But I'm not > aware of any system that actually does this. The inverter should be able to > wake up the battery. I can see this being particularly possible where one > manufacturer is writing the code (I'm thinking Midnite AIO/Powerflo). > > Of course, the inverter would have to have power in order to do that, so > if it's nighttime and there is no PV, the inverter power would need to come > from somewhere. I have two thoughts. First, someone could manually start > the generator, waking up the inverter, but they would not have to reset the > BMS if the inverter told it to wake up. The second way would be for the > inverter to somehow close the 2-wire start circuit upon inverter shutdown, > restoring power to the inverter automatically. > > If those are not options, an external NO relay powered by the inverter > output could be added to the 2-wire start circuit, perhaps with a time > delay to return to the NO position to allow the generator to remain powered > until the inverter does it's thing and starts charging the batteries. > > Anyway, my question is whether any inverter/battery combination out there > works in a way that the inverter tells the battery there is a charging > source available to wake up the BMS and reconnect DC power. And if not, why? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 10:41:44 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 08:41:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offset charge rates vs system sizing to meet 100% production In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Feb 22 11:14:36 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 16:14:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offset charge rates vs system sizing to meet 100% production In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96FBDA88-E2B9-4322-9B5F-6E59FCCE5A24@solarwork.com> Kwhr translates to $, this for net metering with no battery backup. Ultimately it is about meeting production. So if someone needs a 12 kw sized system to meet 100% of their yearly power consumption with equal net metering, when it is unequal how much additional needs to be produced when there is a 44% differential? Does that make sense? Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 On Feb 22, 2025, at 8:43 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote:  Hi Dana. Do you mean offsetting the $ amount or the kWh amount? Jay On Feb 22, 2025, at 8:33 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote:  I am wondering if anyone else has this offset on Kwhr net meter discrepancy & how to design accurately design for this discrepancy. Idaho Powers’ version of net metering goes like this: 1 KW received from IPC charge is $ 0.09/Kwhr & solar input into the grid you are credited $0.04/Kwhr. The difference is 44.44% in the exchange for purchased vs solar export rate. So, will oversizing the solar system by 44% to achieve a goal of 100% production of a client’s current 100% usage achieve this goal? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Sat Feb 22 11:17:53 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 08:17:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automatic Dark Start of Depleted Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello all... The first issue is that inverter/charger parasitic loads have increased exponentially in the past 20+ years. When the LBCO cuts out, the inverter may shut off, but it does not remove itself or any other DC-connected device from the battery. These devices still draw a parasitic load. In the 1990s, the Trace SW would pull about .3 to .4 amps of current from the battery when connected to it. Today, many manufacturers use cheaper transformers, and the high-frequency inverters draw a much higher current. Some of these all-in-one inverters draw 1-2 amps of current from battery banks, just connected and not even turned on. What's important here is that the battery voltage is already very low when you trigger an LBCO shutdown (it's not a disconnect). For a 48-volt system, this is 44 to 47 volts, depending on where you set the LBCO. When a Lithium battery is this low, the voltage dropoff is much higher. With a lead battery, the voltage dropoff is much more linear, but with Lithium chemistry, this voltage dropoff is more like a cliff. This is why it's important for many of these Lithium systems to set the Battery cutouts a bit higher so people have more time to fix the situation before the BMS shuts down. Ideally, the customer should be educated not to over-discharge the bank, which would help. Many of these customers want turnkey systems that they don't want to think about but don't want to pay for it or do the work that is required to maintain it. Now, if the battery had gone into "Protect" mode and the BMS had shut down, the battery is outputting very little votlage... the inverter/charger needs voltage to run. There used to be a line of inverters in the marine and RV market that would do what we called "Dead Battery Restart". This meant there was a parallel circuit in the power supply so that when you supplied AC to the input, a secondary power supply bypassed the regular battery power supply and would power up the inverter and allow the charger to run. Most of the inverter manufacturers got rid of this circuitry because it was not cheap, took up space on the boards, and was just another circuit that could get damaged with generator/shore power surges. I don't know of an inverter today with this dead battery restarting circuit. With this, you need to be very careful. If the customer has cratered the battery voltage and drawn down the voltage so low that they have damaged the cells, jumpstarting the battery can create a charging hazard, and that could cause the cells to swell internally. If that happens, the battery will get warmer and warmer under charge, and eventually, you could have a cell rupture. This can happen quickly with Li-ion, but with LFP, it's much harder to create this problem. Usually, in LFP, cells will swell a bit, and the current interrupter on the individual cell will open up and drop that string, and you will lose capacity. Like everything else, it's a race to the bottom on cost; this affects quality and features... Everyone wants the "Bells & Whistles," but they don't want to pay for it. Steve Higgins On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 5:08 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have been thinking a lot recently about the reasons off-grid systems can > shut down, and working on strategies to prevent these nuisances that > require manual intervention. > > Ideally, a BMS should never shut down due to low voltage/SOC because a > properly programmed inverter should reach it's cut off well before the BMS > decides it needs to protect the battery, especially where there is closed > loop communication. But let's say that happens, where the BMS does make the > DC battery output go to zero. > > It seems to me like the inverter should be able to start a generator, and > then signal to the BMS that a charging source is available. But I'm not > aware of any system that actually does this. The inverter should be able to > wake up the battery. I can see this being particularly possible where one > manufacturer is writing the code (I'm thinking Midnite AIO/Powerflo). > > Of course, the inverter would have to have power in order to do that, so > if it's nighttime and there is no PV, the inverter power would need to come > from somewhere. I have two thoughts. First, someone could manually start > the generator, waking up the inverter, but they would not have to reset the > BMS if the inverter told it to wake up. The second way would be for the > inverter to somehow close the 2-wire start circuit upon inverter shutdown, > restoring power to the inverter automatically. > > If those are not options, an external NO relay powered by the inverter > output could be added to the 2-wire start circuit, perhaps with a time > delay to return to the NO position to allow the generator to remain powered > until the inverter does it's thing and starts charging the batteries. > > Anyway, my question is whether any inverter/battery combination out there > works in a way that the inverter tells the battery there is a charging > source available to wake up the BMS and reconnect DC power. And if not, why? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 11:20:52 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 09:20:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offset charge rates vs system sizing to meet 100% production In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dana, If I understand your situation correctly, this can get complicated and depends on how the usage pattern is. A user that consumes during the day will need a smaller system than one that consumes when the sun isn't shining. Usually it's not one or the other but a blend of course.. I think it means that anytime you are spinning the meter backwards, you get about 4/9 credit that can be applied to your bill. Your usage will be lowered 1:1 when the sun is shining, but at the time of export, it will only get a 4/9 return (the utility can't tell what is non-usage and what is production). You can set up the bounds of the system size by saying, What would the system size be if all usage occurs when the system is producing (the old net metering approach)? 1 usage:1 production What would the system size be if all usage is at night? In this case, you would need a system that produced 9/4 of the kWh to fully offset or a multiplier of 2.25. To make it more complex, you would need to find out if credits carry forward month to month or if its trued up each month. Utilities can make it hard to get data to size the system correctly, but I'd probably shoot for 130-150% for an average house where people work. Its not very easy to sell solar now and give assurances at all. On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 8:42 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Dana. > > Do you mean offsetting the $ amount or the kWh amount? > Jay > > On Feb 22, 2025, at 8:33 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > I am wondering if anyone else has this offset on Kwhr net meter > discrepancy & how to design accurately design for this discrepancy. > > Idaho Powers’ version of net metering goes like this: 1 KW received from > IPC charge is $ 0.09/Kwhr & solar input into the grid you are credited > $0.04/Kwhr. > > The difference is 44.44% in the exchange for purchased vs solar export > rate. > > > > So, will oversizing the solar system by 44% to achieve a goal of 100% > production of a client’s current 100% usage achieve this goal? > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 11:33:49 2025 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 10:33:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automatic Dark Start of Depleted Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Would you be able to do this with the Morningstar relay driver? The relay closes and starts the generator when the battery voltage reaches a certain level. The following is an inferior idea; use an Egauge in particular if you want to do other monitoring, and have the Egauge with a relay driver close the generator start switch. Also, pay attention to Steve Higgens Ideas On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 7:08 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have been thinking a lot recently about the reasons off-grid systems can > shut down, and working on strategies to prevent these nuisances that > require manual intervention. > > Ideally, a BMS should never shut down due to low voltage/SOC because a > properly programmed inverter should reach it's cut off well before the BMS > decides it needs to protect the battery, especially where there is closed > loop communication. But let's say that happens, where the BMS does make the > DC battery output go to zero. > > It seems to me like the inverter should be able to start a generator, and > then signal to the BMS that a charging source is available. But I'm not > aware of any system that actually does this. The inverter should be able to > wake up the battery. I can see this being particularly possible where one > manufacturer is writing the code (I'm thinking Midnite AIO/Powerflo). > > Of course, the inverter would have to have power in order to do that, so > if it's nighttime and there is no PV, the inverter power would need to come > from somewhere. I have two thoughts. First, someone could manually start > the generator, waking up the inverter, but they would not have to reset the > BMS if the inverter told it to wake up. The second way would be for the > inverter to somehow close the 2-wire start circuit upon inverter shutdown, > restoring power to the inverter automatically. > > If those are not options, an external NO relay powered by the inverter > output could be added to the 2-wire start circuit, perhaps with a time > delay to return to the NO position to allow the generator to remain powered > until the inverter does it's thing and starts charging the batteries. > > Anyway, my question is whether any inverter/battery combination out there > works in a way that the inverter tells the battery there is a charging > source available to wake up the BMS and reconnect DC power. And if not, why? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 11:35:39 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 08:35:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator failure alarm In-Reply-To: <24094ee49e2fce7d11cde92fa962032c@mail.gmail.com> References: <24094ee49e2fce7d11cde92fa962032c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, so ATS's from ASCO, and Kohler do this if l understand you correctly, voltage and frequency must be within safe range before tge ATS will transfer or am l missing g what you want to do. Fun times On Fri, Feb 21, 2025, 12:52 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Colleagues: > > > > Is anyone aware of an off-the-shelf device that will give me a contact > closure if a generator is called and does not produce AC after a set amount > of time? I am sure I could design and build one but before I do I’d like > to see if there is a ready-made version. > > > > I hope I am not making a pest of myself asking so many questions… > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Feb 22 11:36:31 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 16:36:31 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offset charge rates vs system sizing to meet 100% production In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1954D1B3-B352-41AA-9786-3BA5AFDB6FA3@solarwork.com> Agreed -time of day vs. usage, home all day vs working folks. IPC monthly kwhr excess rolls over month to month with a reset in January that at which time you need to request that the roll over continues (for a $10 fee) or they clear the excess to 0 & you start over building your credit bank up. Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 On Feb 22, 2025, at 9:23 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:  Hi Dana, If I understand your situation correctly, this can get complicated and depends on how the usage pattern is. A user that consumes during the day will need a smaller system than one that consumes when the sun isn't shining. Usually it's not one or the other but a blend of course.. I think it means that anytime you are spinning the meter backwards, you get about 4/9 credit that can be applied to your bill. Your usage will be lowered 1:1 when the sun is shining, but at the time of export, it will only get a 4/9 return (the utility can't tell what is non-usage and what is production). You can set up the bounds of the system size by saying, What would the system size be if all usage occurs when the system is producing (the old net metering approach)? 1 usage:1 production What would the system size be if all usage is at night? In this case, you would need a system that produced 9/4 of the kWh to fully offset or a multiplier of 2.25. To make it more complex, you would need to find out if credits carry forward month to month or if its trued up each month. Utilities can make it hard to get data to size the system correctly, but I'd probably shoot for 130-150% for an average house where people work. Its not very easy to sell solar now and give assurances at all. On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 8:42 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Dana. Do you mean offsetting the $ amount or the kWh amount? Jay On Feb 22, 2025, at 8:33 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote:  I am wondering if anyone else has this offset on Kwhr net meter discrepancy & how to design accurately design for this discrepancy. Idaho Powers’ version of net metering goes like this: 1 KW received from IPC charge is $ 0.09/Kwhr & solar input into the grid you are credited $0.04/Kwhr. The difference is 44.44% in the exchange for purchased vs solar export rate. So, will oversizing the solar system by 44% to achieve a goal of 100% production of a client’s current 100% usage achieve this goal? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Sat Feb 22 11:45:02 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 08:45:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automatic Dark Start of Depleted Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Darryl... I'm not that smart, If I were I'd be retired by now!!! I'm just relating what I've seen over the past three decades... On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 8:35 AM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Would you be able to do this with the Morningstar relay driver? The relay > closes and starts the generator when the battery voltage reaches a certain > level. The following is an inferior idea; use an Egauge in particular if > you want to do other monitoring, and have the Egauge with a relay driver > close the generator start switch. > > Also, pay attention to Steve Higgens Ideas > > On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 7:08 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I have been thinking a lot recently about the reasons off-grid systems >> can shut down, and working on strategies to prevent these nuisances that >> require manual intervention. >> >> Ideally, a BMS should never shut down due to low voltage/SOC because a >> properly programmed inverter should reach it's cut off well before the BMS >> decides it needs to protect the battery, especially where there is closed >> loop communication. But let's say that happens, where the BMS does make the >> DC battery output go to zero. >> >> It seems to me like the inverter should be able to start a generator, and >> then signal to the BMS that a charging source is available. But I'm not >> aware of any system that actually does this. The inverter should be able to >> wake up the battery. I can see this being particularly possible where one >> manufacturer is writing the code (I'm thinking Midnite AIO/Powerflo). >> >> Of course, the inverter would have to have power in order to do that, so >> if it's nighttime and there is no PV, the inverter power would need to come >> from somewhere. I have two thoughts. First, someone could manually start >> the generator, waking up the inverter, but they would not have to reset the >> BMS if the inverter told it to wake up. The second way would be for the >> inverter to somehow close the 2-wire start circuit upon inverter shutdown, >> restoring power to the inverter automatically. >> >> If those are not options, an external NO relay powered by the inverter >> output could be added to the 2-wire start circuit, perhaps with a time >> delay to return to the NO position to allow the generator to remain powered >> until the inverter does it's thing and starts charging the batteries. >> >> Anyway, my question is whether any inverter/battery combination out there >> works in a way that the inverter tells the battery there is a charging >> source available to wake up the BMS and reconnect DC power. And if not, why? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 11:48:56 2025 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 09:48:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE+Starlink redux Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches - can anyone provide me with recent updates as to how Starlink is working with outback OpticsRE currently? I tried it on a nightmare offgrid system last year, it didn't work, I called Outback tech support, they said it was an issue, and they were working on Mate3S firmware updates, and then they were sold to the EG4 folks who are non-responive. I have a remote nightmare system that I thought I finally fixed over a year ago. The internet connection is DSL (yepper, the 1990s are calling and want to laugh at me) and I fixed the problem for about a year by keeping just OpticsRE and the Resol solar thermal on the old DSL, and moving all mobile device traffic to Starlink.This a southern Colorado "Santa Fe" style estate with rebar-embedded concrete walls that block all wifi. All Outback Optics is hardwired LAN, with a fiber optic LAN system installed just for Outback because the over 50 foot distance didnt work. Now it is misbehaving again, on the DSL. Stays connected for 4-6 hours, then drops. Homeowner trained the housekeeper to reboot the Mate3S, works for 4-6 hours then drops, she only goes there once a week or 2. Can I try again to connect the Mate3S hardwired to Starlink, or will it be once again a futile waste of my billing hours as was last time? I'm just happy the homeowner is a very nice guy and OK with paying my bill for so many site visits, even when those visits don't fix the problem. That's a rare situation, many other clients would be suing me. But when I started in this business in 1994, there were no solar monitoring LANs and only horribly slow satellite links that wouldn't do data. I would never have known what that even meant. Now, seems like I am doing more LAN networking work than PV volts amps watts. And this is FLA batteries, not LiFePO4 and no BMS. What a strange new world we live in. Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 11:52:25 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 08:52:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE+Starlink redux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <929A226E-009D-4527-BAEB-05646602287A@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Feb 22 11:57:40 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 16:57:40 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE+Starlink redux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <619129C6-4A4B-43A7-8A37-4619273D0D1A@solarwork.com> Parallel comment: Starlink & Solark - Starlink comes setup as 5G : to run Solark on Starlink you need to split it to 2.3/2.5 G in the settings section. Would this Help Optics? Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 On Feb 22, 2025, at 9:50 AM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches wrote:  Esteemed Wrenches - can anyone provide me with recent updates as to how Starlink is working with outback OpticsRE currently? I tried it on a nightmare offgrid system last year, it didn't work, I called Outback tech support, they said it was an issue, and they were working on Mate3S firmware updates, and then they were sold to the EG4 folks who are non-responive. I have a remote nightmare system that I thought I finally fixed over a year ago. The internet connection is DSL (yepper, the 1990s are calling and want to laugh at me) and I fixed the problem for about a year by keeping just OpticsRE and the Resol solar thermal on the old DSL, and moving all mobile device traffic to Starlink.This a southern Colorado "Santa Fe" style estate with rebar-embedded concrete walls that block all wifi. All Outback Optics is hardwired LAN, with a fiber optic LAN system installed just for Outback because the over 50 foot distance didnt work. Now it is misbehaving again, on the DSL. Stays connected for 4-6 hours, then drops. Homeowner trained the housekeeper to reboot the Mate3S, works for 4-6 hours then drops, she only goes there once a week or 2. Can I try again to connect the Mate3S hardwired to Starlink, or will it be once again a futile waste of my billing hours as was last time? I'm just happy the homeowner is a very nice guy and OK with paying my bill for so many site visits, even when those visits don't fix the problem. That's a rare situation, many other clients would be suing me. But when I started in this business in 1994, there were no solar monitoring LANs and only horribly slow satellite links that wouldn't do data. I would never have known what that even meant. Now, seems like I am doing more LAN networking work than PV volts amps watts. And this is FLA batteries, not LiFePO4 and no BMS. What a strange new world we live in. Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate danbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Feb 22 12:02:37 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 12:02:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automatic Dark Start of Depleted Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The voltage cliff is a real issue. Even though LFP batteries can be pretty deeply discharged without damage, for practical purposes we need to set the LBCO on the inverter at a relatively high voltage (or SOC) to avoid the steep part of the cliff altogether, rendering a good part of the capacity essentially useless. In situations where there is a readily available charging source at all times (auto-start generator or grid), there really should be a way to overcome this game of chicken between the battery protect mode and inverter LBCO. In the off-grid world, I don't consider that a bell & whistle, but more of a required feature. Maybe it's not so much an inverter issue as much as it is a needed battery feature. Imagine if there were a dry contact on a battery BMS that told it to stay on regardless of how it was feeling that day (subject to safety shutdowns, of course). Then you could force the battery to be alive with 48V DC connected when there is generator output voltage present, for example. Of course, there are risks with this simplistic example, like if the inverter/charger is faulted and cannot charge the battery. I think the right answer is closed-loop communications that can tell a BMS in protect mode to wake up because there is a charging source ready to go. If Midnite could implement this with AIO/Powerflo, it could be a very powerful selling point. On the other hand, maybe it's not that important as long as the inverter reliably reaches LBCO well before the battery goes into protect mode. That answer could be in closed loop communication logic where the BMS sends a warning to the inverter that it is about to shut down, so the inverter can stop inverting on the command of the battery, but keep the battery connected so a charging source will charge it. In other words, maybe it would be better for the battery to be in command of the inverter's LBCO rather than the inverter's own fuzzy logic. The parasitic draw issue does need to be addressed. I went through some calculations on some typical systems I have in the field. For example, one system has a 120kWh battery with four Sol-Ark 15Ks. I think the inverter manufacturers prefer "idle consumption" to the derogatory parasite comparison, but whatever you call it, let's assume 360W for four inverters. If the inverter LBCO is set at 12% and the protect mode is triggered at 2%, that gives us 33 hours until the battery reaches protect mode in theory. That is a substantial amount of time to get a charging source on the battery. But in practice, I have seen many batteries enter protect mode before a "properly" programmed inverter LBCO engages itself. That brings up another feature request. How about dropping the idle consumption of paralleled inverters and just keeping the primary inverter at full idle? Side note: I inherited a site where a Lithionics battery BMS is in control of the 2-wire start for a generator. In theory, this should work, but in practice, the owner often finds the BMS in protect mode with the generator not started. I haven't dug too deeply into this issue yet, but direct BMS control of the generator is another interesting option. But then you would want to build in all of the quiet time, charge percentage/voltage limits, exercise, and other logic that typically an inverter handles. This is an example of how a BMS is in control of the charging source, but it would be better if the BMS was telling the inverter what to do in terms of AGS and LBCO. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 11:17 AM Steve Higgins wrote: > Hello all... > > The first issue is that inverter/charger parasitic loads have increased > exponentially in the past 20+ years. When the LBCO cuts out, the inverter > may shut off, but it does not remove itself or any other DC-connected > device from the battery. These devices still draw a parasitic load. In > the 1990s, the Trace SW would pull about .3 to .4 amps of current from the > battery when connected to it. Today, many manufacturers use cheaper > transformers, and the high-frequency inverters draw a much higher current. > Some of these all-in-one inverters draw 1-2 amps of current from battery > banks, just connected and not even turned on. > > What's important here is that the battery voltage is already very low when > you trigger an LBCO shutdown (it's not a disconnect). For a 48-volt system, > this is 44 to 47 volts, depending on where you set the LBCO. When a Lithium > battery is this low, the voltage dropoff is much higher. With a lead > battery, the voltage dropoff is much more linear, but with Lithium > chemistry, this voltage dropoff is more like a cliff. This is why it's > important for many of these Lithium systems to set the Battery cutouts a > bit higher so people have more time to fix the situation before the BMS > shuts down. Ideally, the customer should be educated not to > over-discharge the bank, which would help. Many of these customers want > turnkey systems that they don't want to think about but don't want to pay > for it or do the work that is required to maintain it. > > Now, if the battery had gone into "Protect" mode and the BMS had shut > down, the battery is outputting very little votlage... the inverter/charger > needs voltage to run. There used to be a line of inverters in the marine > and RV market that would do what we called "Dead Battery Restart". This > meant there was a parallel circuit in the power supply so that when you > supplied AC to the input, a secondary power supply bypassed the regular > battery power supply and would power up the inverter and allow the charger > to run. Most of the inverter manufacturers got rid of this circuitry > because it was not cheap, took up space on the boards, and was just another > circuit that could get damaged with generator/shore power surges. I don't > know of an inverter today with this dead battery restarting circuit. > > With this, you need to be very careful. If the customer has cratered the > battery voltage and drawn down the voltage so low that they have damaged > the cells, jumpstarting the battery can create a charging hazard, and that > could cause the cells to swell internally. If that happens, the battery > will get warmer and warmer under charge, and eventually, you could have a > cell rupture. This can happen quickly with Li-ion, but with LFP, it's much > harder to create this problem. Usually, in LFP, cells will swell a bit, and > the current interrupter on the individual cell will open up and drop that > string, and you will lose capacity. > > Like everything else, it's a race to the bottom on cost; this affects > quality and features... Everyone wants the "Bells & Whistles," but they > don't want to pay for it. > > Steve Higgins > > > On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 5:08 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I have been thinking a lot recently about the reasons off-grid systems >> can shut down, and working on strategies to prevent these nuisances that >> require manual intervention. >> >> Ideally, a BMS should never shut down due to low voltage/SOC because a >> properly programmed inverter should reach it's cut off well before the BMS >> decides it needs to protect the battery, especially where there is closed >> loop communication. But let's say that happens, where the BMS does make the >> DC battery output go to zero. >> >> It seems to me like the inverter should be able to start a generator, and >> then signal to the BMS that a charging source is available. But I'm not >> aware of any system that actually does this. The inverter should be able to >> wake up the battery. I can see this being particularly possible where one >> manufacturer is writing the code (I'm thinking Midnite AIO/Powerflo). >> >> Of course, the inverter would have to have power in order to do that, so >> if it's nighttime and there is no PV, the inverter power would need to come >> from somewhere. I have two thoughts. First, someone could manually start >> the generator, waking up the inverter, but they would not have to reset the >> BMS if the inverter told it to wake up. The second way would be for the >> inverter to somehow close the 2-wire start circuit upon inverter shutdown, >> restoring power to the inverter automatically. >> >> If those are not options, an external NO relay powered by the inverter >> output could be added to the 2-wire start circuit, perhaps with a time >> delay to return to the NO position to allow the generator to remain powered >> until the inverter does it's thing and starts charging the batteries. >> >> Anyway, my question is whether any inverter/battery combination out there >> works in a way that the inverter tells the battery there is a charging >> source available to wake up the BMS and reconnect DC power. And if not, why? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 12:03:42 2025 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 10:03:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE+Starlink redux In-Reply-To: <619129C6-4A4B-43A7-8A37-4619273D0D1A@solarwork.com> References: <619129C6-4A4B-43A7-8A37-4619273D0D1A@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Dana - the Outback Mate3S is hardwired LAN, no wifi involved. What a strange new world we live in. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 9:58 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Parallel comment: > Starlink & Solark - Starlink comes setup as 5G : to run Solark on Starlink > you need to split it to 2.3/2.5 G in the settings section. Would this Help > Optics? > > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > > On Feb 22, 2025, at 9:50 AM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Esteemed Wrenches - can anyone provide me with recent updates as to how > Starlink is working with outback OpticsRE currently? I tried it on a > nightmare offgrid system last year, it didn't work, I called Outback tech > support, they said it was an issue, and they were working on Mate3S > firmware updates, and then they were sold to the EG4 folks who are > non-responive. > > I have a remote nightmare system that I thought I finally fixed over a > year ago. The internet connection is DSL (yepper, the 1990s are calling and > want to laugh at me) and I fixed the problem for about a year by keeping > just OpticsRE and the Resol solar thermal on the old DSL, and moving all > mobile device traffic to Starlink.This a southern Colorado "Santa Fe" style > estate with rebar-embedded concrete walls that block all wifi. All Outback > Optics is hardwired LAN, with a fiber optic LAN system installed just for > Outback because the over 50 foot distance didnt work. > > Now it is misbehaving again, on the DSL. Stays connected for 4-6 hours, > then drops. Homeowner trained the housekeeper to reboot the Mate3S, works > for 4-6 hours then drops, she only goes there once a week or 2. Can I try > again to connect the Mate3S hardwired to Starlink, or will it be once again > a futile waste of my billing hours as was last time? > > I'm just happy the homeowner is a very nice guy and OK with paying my bill > for so many site visits, even when those visits don't fix the problem. > That's a rare situation, many other clients would be suing me. > > But when I started in this business in 1994, there were no solar > monitoring LANs and only horribly slow satellite links that wouldn't do > data. I would never have known what that even meant. Now, seems like I am > doing more LAN networking work than PV volts amps watts. And this is FLA > batteries, not LiFePO4 and no BMS. > > What a strange new world we live in. > > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 12:07:25 2025 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 10:07:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator failure alarm In-Reply-To: <24094ee49e2fce7d11cde92fa962032c@mail.gmail.com> References: <24094ee49e2fce7d11cde92fa962032c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William - have you talked to Atkinson in Utah? Last time I talked to them they could configure just about anything for such applications. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 1:54 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Colleagues: > > > > Is anyone aware of an off-the-shelf device that will give me a contact > closure if a generator is called and does not produce AC after a set amount > of time? I am sure I could design and build one but before I do I’d like > to see if there is a ready-made version. > > > > I hope I am not making a pest of myself asking so many questions… > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Feb 22 12:10:15 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 17:10:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE+Starlink redux In-Reply-To: <619129C6-4A4B-43A7-8A37-4619273D0D1A@solarwork.com> References: <619129C6-4A4B-43A7-8A37-4619273D0D1A@solarwork.com> <619129C6-4A4B-43A7-8A37-4619273D0D1A@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Dana, This is appreciated information. Right now, I have a Wi-Fi extender connected to a Starlink because the Sol-Ark would not connect to Starlink. So I have the Sol-Ark going through the extender's 2.4Ghz network. I would like to eliminate the Wi-Fi extender because it's just one more thing to go wrong, and I have to have it on a UPS (I put all required network gear on UPSs so if the inverter shuts down I can still "see" it remotely until the UPS dies and gather any fault codes that might be present). Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 11:58 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > Parallel comment: > Starlink & Solark - Starlink comes setup as 5G : to run Solark on Starlink you > need to split it to 2.3/2.5 G in the settings section. Would this Help Optics? > > > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com [dana at solarwork.com] - 208.721.7003 > > > > > On Feb 22, 2025, at 9:50 AM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches > wrenches.org [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> wrote: > > >  > > Esteemed Wrenches - can anyone provide me with recent updates as to how > > Starlink is working with outback OpticsRE currently? I tried it on a > > nightmare offgrid system last year, it didn't work, I called Outback tech > > support, they said it was an issue, and they were working on Mate3S firmware > > updates, and then they were sold to the EG4 folks who are non-responive. > > > > > > I have a remote nightmare system that I thought I finally fixed over a year > > ago. The internet connection is DSL (yepper, the 1990s are calling and want > > to laugh at me) and I fixed the problem for about a year by keeping just > > OpticsRE and the Resol solar thermal on the old DSL, and moving all mobile > > device traffic to Starlink.This a southern Colorado "Santa Fe" style estate > > with rebar-embedded concrete walls that block all wifi. All Outback Optics > > is hardwired LAN, with a fiber optic LAN system installed just for Outback > > because the over 50 foot distance didnt work. > > > > > > Now it is misbehaving again, on the DSL. Stays connected for 4-6 hours, then > > drops. Homeowner trained the housekeeper to reboot the Mate3S, works for 4-6 > > hours then drops, she only goes there once a week or 2. Can I try again to > > connect the Mate3S hardwired to Starlink, or will it be once again a futile > > waste of my billing hours as was last time? > > > > > > I'm just happy the homeowner is a very nice guy and OK with paying my bill > > for so many site visits, even when those visits don't fix the problem. > > That's a rare situation, many other clients would be suing me.   > > > > > > But when I started in this business in 1994, there were no solar monitoring > > LANs and only horribly slow satellite links that wouldn't do data. I would > > never have known what that even meant. Now, seems like I am doing more LAN > > networking work than PV volts amps watts. And this is FLA batteries, not > > LiFePO4 and no BMS.  > > > > > > What a strange new world we live in.  > >   > > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > > NABCEP PV Associate > > d [dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com]anbob88 at gmail.com [anbob88 at gmail.com] > > 970-672-4342 > > > >   > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///wAAACwAAAAAAQABAAACAkQBADs=3D] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 12:17:08 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 09:17:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE+Starlink redux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: About a dozen of my sites are using Starlink to support Opticsre without any sort of issue. Extremely stable compared to past strategies. Nick On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 8:49 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches - can anyone provide me with recent updates as to how > Starlink is working with outback OpticsRE currently? I tried it on a > nightmare offgrid system last year, it didn't work, I called Outback tech > support, they said it was an issue, and they were working on Mate3S > firmware updates, and then they were sold to the EG4 folks who are > non-responive. > > I have a remote nightmare system that I thought I finally fixed over a > year ago. The internet connection is DSL (yepper, the 1990s are calling and > want to laugh at me) and I fixed the problem for about a year by keeping > just OpticsRE and the Resol solar thermal on the old DSL, and moving all > mobile device traffic to Starlink.This a southern Colorado "Santa Fe" style > estate with rebar-embedded concrete walls that block all wifi. All Outback > Optics is hardwired LAN, with a fiber optic LAN system installed just for > Outback because the over 50 foot distance didnt work. > > Now it is misbehaving again, on the DSL. Stays connected for 4-6 hours, > then drops. Homeowner trained the housekeeper to reboot the Mate3S, works > for 4-6 hours then drops, she only goes there once a week or 2. Can I try > again to connect the Mate3S hardwired to Starlink, or will it be once again > a futile waste of my billing hours as was last time? > > I'm just happy the homeowner is a very nice guy and OK with paying my bill > for so many site visits, even when those visits don't fix the problem. > That's a rare situation, many other clients would be suing me. > > But when I started in this business in 1994, there were no solar > monitoring LANs and only horribly slow satellite links that wouldn't do > data. I would never have known what that even meant. Now, seems like I am > doing more LAN networking work than PV volts amps watts. And this is FLA > batteries, not LiFePO4 and no BMS. > > What a strange new world we live in. > > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 13:49:31 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 11:49:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automatic Dark Start of Depleted Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19B55B9F-079D-4F9F-B3C7-9925F0E93BBA@gmail.com> One advantage of the blue ion if I have it right is they had a charge circuit built in using diodes. Which meant it could charge even though it was not discharging. Pretty trick design. I do think the Lithium folks need to have a much better way to deal with someone who has black start situation besides having to remover the cover ( its thats even possible ). Yes would be more cost, but what would it cost to have a small 48v 5 amp charger built in with an access port on the outside. Or a port that you connect 48v nominal to and push a button which has a diode in it, so you can’t discharge only charge from that port. We can talk about it should never happen but like has been discussed there, the arc fault shuts down the CC, people are gone for a vacation or whatever come back to a dead system. There are lots of reasons that shit can happen that don’t include people being negligent or stupid with their system. yeah yeah stupid is probably the majority but still. It needs to be easier more reliable to have the system in failsafe mode and to get it out of that mode. I get it there is no perfect design, but we need some improvement because with more lithium batteries we are seeing this more and more. For us old timers, the big advantage of lead was that if the inverter turned off, just getting the generator started would get it all back to working. I like what Jason is talking about in regards to some sort of communication that when the inverter turns on from PV or generator it will force start the batteries so they can charge. And yes it could also be programmed so it won’t pull from the batteries until some given %. More tech needs more tech. Jay > On Feb 22, 2025, at 10:02 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > The voltage cliff is a real issue. Even though LFP batteries can be pretty deeply discharged without damage, for practical purposes we need to set the LBCO on the inverter at a relatively high voltage (or SOC) to avoid the steep part of the cliff altogether, rendering a good part of the capacity essentially useless. In situations where there is a readily available charging source at all times (auto-start generator or grid), there really should be a way to overcome this game of chicken between the battery protect mode and inverter LBCO. In the off-grid world, I don't consider that a bell & whistle, but more of a required feature. > > Maybe it's not so much an inverter issue as much as it is a needed battery feature. Imagine if there were a dry contact on a battery BMS that told it to stay on regardless of how it was feeling that day (subject to safety shutdowns, of course). Then you could force the battery to be alive with 48V DC connected when there is generator output voltage present, for example. Of course, there are risks with this simplistic example, like if the inverter/charger is faulted and cannot charge the battery. > > I think the right answer is closed-loop communications that can tell a BMS in protect mode to wake up because there is a charging source ready to go. If Midnite could implement this with AIO/Powerflo, it could be a very powerful selling point. On the other hand, maybe it's not that important as long as the inverter reliably reaches LBCO well before the battery goes into protect mode. That answer could be in closed loop communication logic where the BMS sends a warning to the inverter that it is about to shut down, so the inverter can stop inverting on the command of the battery, but keep the battery connected so a charging source will charge it. > > In other words, maybe it would be better for the battery to be in command of the inverter's LBCO rather than the inverter's own fuzzy logic. > > The parasitic draw issue does need to be addressed. I went through some calculations on some typical systems I have in the field. For example, one system has a 120kWh battery with four Sol-Ark 15Ks. I think the inverter manufacturers prefer "idle consumption" to the derogatory parasite comparison, but whatever you call it, let's assume 360W for four inverters. If the inverter LBCO is set at 12% and the protect mode is triggered at 2%, that gives us 33 hours until the battery reaches protect mode in theory. That is a substantial amount of time to get a charging source on the battery. But in practice, I have seen many batteries enter protect mode before a "properly" programmed inverter LBCO engages itself. > > That brings up another feature request. How about dropping the idle consumption of paralleled inverters and just keeping the primary inverter at full idle? > > > Side note: I inherited a site where a Lithionics battery BMS is in control of the 2-wire start for a generator. In theory, this should work, but in practice, the owner often finds the BMS in protect mode with the generator not started. I haven't dug too deeply into this issue yet, but direct BMS control of the generator is another interesting option. But then you would want to build in all of the quiet time, charge percentage/voltage limits, exercise, and other logic that typically an inverter handles. This is an example of how a BMS is in control of the charging source, but it would be better if the BMS was telling the inverter what to do in terms of AGS and LBCO. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 11:17 AM Steve Higgins > wrote: >> Hello all... >> >> The first issue is that inverter/charger parasitic loads have increased exponentially in the past 20+ years. When the LBCO cuts out, the inverter may shut off, but it does not remove itself or any other DC-connected device from the battery. These devices still draw a parasitic load. In the 1990s, the Trace SW would pull about .3 to .4 amps of current from the battery when connected to it. Today, many manufacturers use cheaper transformers, and the high-frequency inverters draw a much higher current. Some of these all-in-one inverters draw 1-2 amps of current from battery banks, just connected and not even turned on. >> >> What's important here is that the battery voltage is already very low when you trigger an LBCO shutdown (it's not a disconnect). For a 48-volt system, this is 44 to 47 volts, depending on where you set the LBCO. When a Lithium battery is this low, the voltage dropoff is much higher. With a lead battery, the voltage dropoff is much more linear, but with Lithium chemistry, this voltage dropoff is more like a cliff. This is why it's important for many of these Lithium systems to set the Battery cutouts a bit higher so people have more time to fix the situation before the BMS shuts down. Ideally, the customer should be educated not to over-discharge the bank, which would help. Many of these customers want turnkey systems that they don't want to think about but don't want to pay for it or do the work that is required to maintain it. >> >> Now, if the battery had gone into "Protect" mode and the BMS had shut down, the battery is outputting very little votlage... the inverter/charger needs voltage to run. There used to be a line of inverters in the marine and RV market that would do what we called "Dead Battery Restart". This meant there was a parallel circuit in the power supply so that when you supplied AC to the input, a secondary power supply bypassed the regular battery power supply and would power up the inverter and allow the charger to run. Most of the inverter manufacturers got rid of this circuitry because it was not cheap, took up space on the boards, and was just another circuit that could get damaged with generator/shore power surges. I don't know of an inverter today with this dead battery restarting circuit. >> >> With this, you need to be very careful. If the customer has cratered the battery voltage and drawn down the voltage so low that they have damaged the cells, jumpstarting the battery can create a charging hazard, and that could cause the cells to swell internally. If that happens, the battery will get warmer and warmer under charge, and eventually, you could have a cell rupture. This can happen quickly with Li-ion, but with LFP, it's much harder to create this problem. Usually, in LFP, cells will swell a bit, and the current interrupter on the individual cell will open up and drop that string, and you will lose capacity. >> >> Like everything else, it's a race to the bottom on cost; this affects quality and features... Everyone wants the "Bells & Whistles," but they don't want to pay for it. >> >> Steve Higgins >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 5:08 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> I have been thinking a lot recently about the reasons off-grid systems can shut down, and working on strategies to prevent these nuisances that require manual intervention. >>> >>> Ideally, a BMS should never shut down due to low voltage/SOC because a properly programmed inverter should reach it's cut off well before the BMS decides it needs to protect the battery, especially where there is closed loop communication. But let's say that happens, where the BMS does make the DC battery output go to zero. >>> >>> It seems to me like the inverter should be able to start a generator, and then signal to the BMS that a charging source is available. But I'm not aware of any system that actually does this. The inverter should be able to wake up the battery. I can see this being particularly possible where one manufacturer is writing the code (I'm thinking Midnite AIO/Powerflo). >>> >>> Of course, the inverter would have to have power in order to do that, so if it's nighttime and there is no PV, the inverter power would need to come from somewhere. I have two thoughts. First, someone could manually start the generator, waking up the inverter, but they would not have to reset the BMS if the inverter told it to wake up. The second way would be for the inverter to somehow close the 2-wire start circuit upon inverter shutdown, restoring power to the inverter automatically. >>> >>> If those are not options, an external NO relay powered by the inverter output could be added to the 2-wire start circuit, perhaps with a time delay to return to the NO position to allow the generator to remain powered until the inverter does it's thing and starts charging the batteries. >>> >>> Anyway, my question is whether any inverter/battery combination out there works in a way that the inverter tells the battery there is a charging source available to wake up the BMS and reconnect DC power. And if not, why? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Feb 22 13:50:40 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 10:50:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator failure alarm In-Reply-To: References: <24094ee49e2fce7d11cde92fa962032c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4f182faee6a2624fad0366b9999fd078@mail.gmail.com> Dan: The application is an off-grid animal rescue facility with a requirement for high reliability. We recently acquired a second generator and a Kohler RDT transfer switch. The RDT will automatically transfer to either of two inputs based on where AC is detected. However the RDT logic is not capable of transferring the start signal if one generator fails to start. I looked at the Atkinson web site but I did not see anything that was quite right. It may be that they can create something but then I would miss out on that part of the fun. It’s easy to overlook how complicated it is starting an internal combustion engine. You have to crank until the engine starts, you can’t crank too long, you need to try multiple times, etc. This is why the Trace SW 3-wire start circuitry was so amazing. I sketched out an electro-mechanical solution but I soon realized the logic was a bit too complicated. The inverter will want to attempt the start multiple times before giving up. I’d like to do the same and then switch to starting the second generator after maybe 3 failed attempts at starting Gen 1. It seems I need to code some kind of script to execute this logic. This is where the Control by Web solution seems to be the best fit. I have used their products and they are excellent. If others are interested I can post back when I crack this nut. Thanks everyone for your collective wisdom and comradery! William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Dan Fink [mailto:danbob88 at gmail.com] *Sent:* Saturday, February 22, 2025 9:07 AM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator failure alarm William - have you talked to Atkinson in Utah? Last time I talked to them they could configure just about anything for such applications. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 1:54 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Colleagues: Is anyone aware of an off-the-shelf device that will give me a contact closure if a generator is called and does not produce AC after a set amount of time? I am sure I could design and build one but before I do I’d like to see if there is a ready-made version. I hope I am not making a pest of myself asking so many questions… Thanks in advance. William Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 14:09:09 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 12:09:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator failure alarm In-Reply-To: <4f182faee6a2624fad0366b9999fd078@mail.gmail.com> References: <24094ee49e2fce7d11cde92fa962032c@mail.gmail.com> <4f182faee6a2624fad0366b9999fd078@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have a suggestion. The Atkinson is pretty amazing. What if you set up each generator with 1 GSCM. Start signal is sent to generator #1 and the GSCM tries but the generator doesn’t start, I believe it has a fault circuit which maybe you could use to trigger generator #2 GSCM AGS start sequence. Just a thought jay > On Feb 22, 2025, at 11:50 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Dan: > > The application is an off-grid animal rescue facility with a requirement for high reliability. We recently acquired a second generator and a Kohler RDT transfer switch. The RDT will automatically transfer to either of two inputs based on where AC is detected. However the RDT logic is not capable of transferring the start signal if one generator fails to start. > > I looked at the Atkinson web site but I did not see anything that was quite right. It may be that they can create something but then I would miss out on that part of the fun. > > It’s easy to overlook how complicated it is starting an internal combustion engine. You have to crank until the engine starts, you can’t crank too long, you need to try multiple times, etc. This is why the Trace SW 3-wire start circuitry was so amazing. > > I sketched out an electro-mechanical solution but I soon realized the logic was a bit too complicated. The inverter will want to attempt the start multiple times before giving up. I’d like to do the same and then switch to starting the second generator after maybe 3 failed attempts at starting Gen 1. It seems I need to code some kind of script to execute this logic. This is where the Control by Web solution seems to be the best fit. I have used their products and they are excellent. > > If others are interested I can post back when I crack this nut. > > Thanks everyone for your collective wisdom and comradery! > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > From: Dan Fink [mailto:danbob88 at gmail.com ] > Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2025 9:07 AM > To: william at millersolar.com ; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator failure alarm > > William - have you talked to Atkinson in Utah? Last time I talked to them they could configure just about anything for such applications. > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 1:54 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Colleagues: >> >> Is anyone aware of an off-the-shelf device that will give me a contact closure if a generator is called and does not produce AC after a set amount of time? I am sure I could design and build one but before I do I’d like to see if there is a ready-made version. >> >> I hope I am not making a pest of myself asking so many questions… >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> William Miller >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 14:12:01 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 11:12:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE+Starlink redux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Probably goes without saying but definitely worth setting the optics reboot interval short..might help if it's something that hasn't been done On Sat, Feb 22, 2025, 9:17 AM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > About a dozen of my sites are using Starlink to support Opticsre without > any sort of issue. Extremely stable compared to past strategies. > > Nick > > On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 8:49 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Esteemed Wrenches - can anyone provide me with recent updates as to how >> Starlink is working with outback OpticsRE currently? I tried it on a >> nightmare offgrid system last year, it didn't work, I called Outback tech >> support, they said it was an issue, and they were working on Mate3S >> firmware updates, and then they were sold to the EG4 folks who are >> non-responive. >> >> I have a remote nightmare system that I thought I finally fixed over a >> year ago. The internet connection is DSL (yepper, the 1990s are calling and >> want to laugh at me) and I fixed the problem for about a year by keeping >> just OpticsRE and the Resol solar thermal on the old DSL, and moving all >> mobile device traffic to Starlink.This a southern Colorado "Santa Fe" style >> estate with rebar-embedded concrete walls that block all wifi. All Outback >> Optics is hardwired LAN, with a fiber optic LAN system installed just for >> Outback because the over 50 foot distance didnt work. >> >> Now it is misbehaving again, on the DSL. Stays connected for 4-6 hours, >> then drops. Homeowner trained the housekeeper to reboot the Mate3S, works >> for 4-6 hours then drops, she only goes there once a week or 2. Can I try >> again to connect the Mate3S hardwired to Starlink, or will it be once again >> a futile waste of my billing hours as was last time? >> >> I'm just happy the homeowner is a very nice guy and OK with paying my >> bill for so many site visits, even when those visits don't fix the problem. >> That's a rare situation, many other clients would be suing me. >> >> But when I started in this business in 1994, there were no solar >> monitoring LANs and only horribly slow satellite links that wouldn't do >> data. I would never have known what that even meant. Now, seems like I am >> doing more LAN networking work than PV volts amps watts. And this is FLA >> batteries, not LiFePO4 and no BMS. >> >> What a strange new world we live in. >> >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> NABCEP PV Associate >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Sat Feb 22 16:06:17 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 16:06:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automatic Dark Start of Depleted Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Everyone wants to compare the AIO inverters to the older low frequency inverters when it comes to the idle power draw. But everyone now wants all the bells and whistles. Nothing is free, and if you take an older system then add up the charge controllers draw, SCP monitoring system, Gateway device, and then add a battery monitor to the mix you will find the Idle draw is much higher than what the MFG says for the inverter alone. Feel free to check the math with a Schneider XW with 3 VH MPPT controllers, a gateway, a SCP, and lithium batteries running closed loop. Oh, the Schinder does not have any smart loads like most AIO do. My 2 cents. Logan On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 12:03 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The voltage cliff is a real issue. Even though LFP batteries can be pretty > deeply discharged without damage, for practical purposes we need to set the > LBCO on the inverter at a relatively high voltage (or SOC) to avoid the > steep part of the cliff altogether, rendering a good part of the capacity > essentially useless. In situations where there is a readily available > charging source at all times (auto-start generator or grid), there really > should be a way to overcome this game of chicken between the battery > protect mode and inverter LBCO. In the off-grid world, I don't consider > that a bell & whistle, but more of a required feature. > > Maybe it's not so much an inverter issue as much as it is a needed battery > feature. Imagine if there were a dry contact on a battery BMS that told it > to stay on regardless of how it was feeling that day (subject to safety > shutdowns, of course). Then you could force the battery to be alive with > 48V DC connected when there is generator output voltage present, for > example. Of course, there are risks with this simplistic example, like if > the inverter/charger is faulted and cannot charge the battery. > > I think the right answer is closed-loop communications that can tell a BMS > in protect mode to wake up because there is a charging source ready to go. > If Midnite could implement this with AIO/Powerflo, it could be a very > powerful selling point. On the other hand, maybe it's not that important as > long as the inverter reliably reaches LBCO well before the battery goes > into protect mode. That answer could be in closed loop communication logic > where the BMS sends a warning to the inverter that it is about to shut > down, so the inverter can stop inverting on the command of the battery, but > keep the battery connected so a charging source will charge it. > > In other words, maybe it would be better for the battery to be in command > of the inverter's LBCO rather than the inverter's own fuzzy logic. > > The parasitic draw issue does need to be addressed. I went through some > calculations on some typical systems I have in the field. For example, one > system has a 120kWh battery with four Sol-Ark 15Ks. I think the inverter > manufacturers prefer "idle consumption" to the derogatory parasite > comparison, but whatever you call it, let's assume 360W for four inverters. > If the inverter LBCO is set at 12% and the protect mode is triggered at 2%, > that gives us 33 hours until the battery reaches protect mode in theory. > That is a substantial amount of time to get a charging source on the > battery. But in practice, I have seen many batteries enter protect mode > before a "properly" programmed inverter LBCO engages itself. > > That brings up another feature request. How about dropping the idle > consumption of paralleled inverters and just keeping the primary inverter > at full idle? > > > Side note: I inherited a site where a Lithionics battery BMS is in control > of the 2-wire start for a generator. In theory, this should work, but in > practice, the owner often finds the BMS in protect mode with the generator > not started. I haven't dug too deeply into this issue yet, but direct BMS > control of the generator is another interesting option. But then you would > want to build in all of the quiet time, charge percentage/voltage limits, > exercise, and other logic that typically an inverter handles. This is an > example of how a BMS is in control of the charging source, but it would be > better if the BMS was telling the inverter what to do in terms of AGS and > LBCO. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 11:17 AM Steve Higgins wrote: > >> Hello all... >> >> The first issue is that inverter/charger parasitic loads have increased >> exponentially in the past 20+ years. When the LBCO cuts out, the inverter >> may shut off, but it does not remove itself or any other DC-connected >> device from the battery. These devices still draw a parasitic load. In >> the 1990s, the Trace SW would pull about .3 to .4 amps of current from the >> battery when connected to it. Today, many manufacturers use cheaper >> transformers, and the high-frequency inverters draw a much higher current. >> Some of these all-in-one inverters draw 1-2 amps of current from battery >> banks, just connected and not even turned on. >> >> What's important here is that the battery voltage is already very low >> when you trigger an LBCO shutdown (it's not a disconnect). For a 48-volt >> system, this is 44 to 47 volts, depending on where you set the LBCO. When a >> Lithium battery is this low, the voltage dropoff is much higher. With a >> lead battery, the voltage dropoff is much more linear, but with Lithium >> chemistry, this voltage dropoff is more like a cliff. This is why it's >> important for many of these Lithium systems to set the Battery cutouts a >> bit higher so people have more time to fix the situation before the BMS >> shuts down. Ideally, the customer should be educated not to >> over-discharge the bank, which would help. Many of these customers want >> turnkey systems that they don't want to think about but don't want to pay >> for it or do the work that is required to maintain it. >> >> Now, if the battery had gone into "Protect" mode and the BMS had shut >> down, the battery is outputting very little votlage... the inverter/charger >> needs voltage to run. There used to be a line of inverters in the marine >> and RV market that would do what we called "Dead Battery Restart". This >> meant there was a parallel circuit in the power supply so that when you >> supplied AC to the input, a secondary power supply bypassed the regular >> battery power supply and would power up the inverter and allow the charger >> to run. Most of the inverter manufacturers got rid of this circuitry >> because it was not cheap, took up space on the boards, and was just another >> circuit that could get damaged with generator/shore power surges. I don't >> know of an inverter today with this dead battery restarting circuit. >> >> With this, you need to be very careful. If the customer has cratered the >> battery voltage and drawn down the voltage so low that they have damaged >> the cells, jumpstarting the battery can create a charging hazard, and that >> could cause the cells to swell internally. If that happens, the battery >> will get warmer and warmer under charge, and eventually, you could have a >> cell rupture. This can happen quickly with Li-ion, but with LFP, it's much >> harder to create this problem. Usually, in LFP, cells will swell a bit, and >> the current interrupter on the individual cell will open up and drop that >> string, and you will lose capacity. >> >> Like everything else, it's a race to the bottom on cost; this affects >> quality and features... Everyone wants the "Bells & Whistles," but they >> don't want to pay for it. >> >> Steve Higgins >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 5:08 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I have been thinking a lot recently about the reasons off-grid systems >>> can shut down, and working on strategies to prevent these nuisances that >>> require manual intervention. >>> >>> Ideally, a BMS should never shut down due to low voltage/SOC because a >>> properly programmed inverter should reach it's cut off well before the BMS >>> decides it needs to protect the battery, especially where there is closed >>> loop communication. But let's say that happens, where the BMS does make the >>> DC battery output go to zero. >>> >>> It seems to me like the inverter should be able to start a generator, >>> and then signal to the BMS that a charging source is available. But I'm not >>> aware of any system that actually does this. The inverter should be able to >>> wake up the battery. I can see this being particularly possible where one >>> manufacturer is writing the code (I'm thinking Midnite AIO/Powerflo). >>> >>> Of course, the inverter would have to have power in order to do that, so >>> if it's nighttime and there is no PV, the inverter power would need to come >>> from somewhere. I have two thoughts. First, someone could manually start >>> the generator, waking up the inverter, but they would not have to reset the >>> BMS if the inverter told it to wake up. The second way would be for the >>> inverter to somehow close the 2-wire start circuit upon inverter shutdown, >>> restoring power to the inverter automatically. >>> >>> If those are not options, an external NO relay powered by the inverter >>> output could be added to the 2-wire start circuit, perhaps with a time >>> delay to return to the NO position to allow the generator to remain powered >>> until the inverter does it's thing and starts charging the batteries. >>> >>> Anyway, my question is whether any inverter/battery combination out >>> there works in a way that the inverter tells the battery there is a >>> charging source available to wake up the BMS and reconnect DC power. And if >>> not, why? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Sat Feb 22 16:08:05 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 16:08:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator failure alarm In-Reply-To: <4f182faee6a2624fad0366b9999fd078@mail.gmail.com> References: <24094ee49e2fce7d11cde92fa962032c@mail.gmail.com> <4f182faee6a2624fad0366b9999fd078@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Control By Web for the win! 100% reliable and easy to configure. On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 2:03 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Dan: > > > > The application is an off-grid animal rescue facility with a requirement > for high reliability. We recently acquired a second generator and a Kohler > RDT transfer switch. The RDT will automatically transfer to either of two > inputs based on where AC is detected. However the RDT logic is not capable > of transferring the start signal if one generator fails to start. > > > > I looked at the Atkinson web site but I did not see anything that was > quite right. It may be that they can create something but then I would > miss out on that part of the fun. > > > > It’s easy to overlook how complicated it is starting an internal > combustion engine. You have to crank until the engine starts, you can’t > crank too long, you need to try multiple times, etc. This is why the Trace > SW 3-wire start circuitry was so amazing. > > > > I sketched out an electro-mechanical solution but I soon realized the > logic was a bit too complicated. The inverter will want to attempt the > start multiple times before giving up. I’d like to do the same and then > switch to starting the second generator after maybe 3 failed attempts at > starting Gen 1. It seems I need to code some kind of script to execute > this logic. This is where the Control by Web solution seems to be the best > fit. I have used their products and they are excellent. > > > > If others are interested I can post back when I crack this nut. > > > > Thanks everyone for your collective wisdom and comradery! > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Dan Fink [mailto:danbob88 at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, February 22, 2025 9:07 AM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator failure alarm > > > > William - have you talked to Atkinson in Utah? Last time I talked to them > they could configure just about anything for such applications. > > Dan Fink > > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > > NABCEP PV Associate > > d anbob88 at gmail.com > > 970-672-4342 > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 1:54 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Colleagues: > > > > Is anyone aware of an off-the-shelf device that will give me a contact > closure if a generator is called and does not produce AC after a set amount > of time? I am sure I could design and build one but before I do I’d like > to see if there is a ready-made version. > > > > I hope I am not making a pest of myself asking so many questions… > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 18:19:28 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 16:19:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D83C1C3-8347-413F-9810-C5E41298A232@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Feb 22 23:10:11 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2025 23:10:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE+Starlink redux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dan, I have at least 5 systems with Starlink and Optics working fine. I had Starlink at my place for a couple years until Fidium Fiber showed up and ran fiber over 3/4 miles up my road just for me at no charge.. I still have the starlink set up as backup if needed. My only complaint with starlink was cost per month and occasional short signal losses. Mostly didn't care except when in an online meeting and missed an important bit of info. John Blitterdorf offgridvermont.com On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 11:50 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches - can anyone provide me with recent updates as to how > Starlink is working with outback OpticsRE currently? I tried it on a > nightmare offgrid system last year, it didn't work, I called Outback tech > support, they said it was an issue, and they were working on Mate3S > firmware updates, and then they were sold to the EG4 folks who are > non-responive. > > I have a remote nightmare system that I thought I finally fixed over a > year ago. The internet connection is DSL (yepper, the 1990s are calling and > want to laugh at me) and I fixed the problem for about a year by keeping > just OpticsRE and the Resol solar thermal on the old DSL, and moving all > mobile device traffic to Starlink.This a southern Colorado "Santa Fe" style > estate with rebar-embedded concrete walls that block all wifi. All Outback > Optics is hardwired LAN, with a fiber optic LAN system installed just for > Outback because the over 50 foot distance didnt work. > > Now it is misbehaving again, on the DSL. Stays connected for 4-6 hours, > then drops. Homeowner trained the housekeeper to reboot the Mate3S, works > for 4-6 hours then drops, she only goes there once a week or 2. Can I try > again to connect the Mate3S hardwired to Starlink, or will it be once again > a futile waste of my billing hours as was last time? > > I'm just happy the homeowner is a very nice guy and OK with paying my bill > for so many site visits, even when those visits don't fix the problem. > That's a rare situation, many other clients would be suing me. > > But when I started in this business in 1994, there were no solar > monitoring LANs and only horribly slow satellite links that wouldn't do > data. I would never have known what that even meant. Now, seems like I am > doing more LAN networking work than PV volts amps watts. And this is FLA > batteries, not LiFePO4 and no BMS. > > What a strange new world we live in. > > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sun Feb 23 07:13:45 2025 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2025 08:13:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE+Starlink redux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Starlink router comes as a WiFi device and most people use that WiFi as is. I obtained the hard wire ethernet interface for the Starlink router and connected my own router and managed WiFi access point system. Most of our inverters use WiFi but cannot connect to 5Ghz WiFi, so we have to turn that off and connect to the 2.4Ghz WiFi. The MATE3 devices that I have used have lost the use of the ethernet connection after some time, and Outback has told me to reset to factory and then update the firmware. If your MATE3 is losing connection, is it still on the local network? I think that is an important item to determine. On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 12:50 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches - can anyone provide me with recent updates as to how > Starlink is working with outback OpticsRE currently? I tried it on a > nightmare offgrid system last year, it didn't work, I called Outback tech > support, they said it was an issue, and they were working on Mate3S > firmware updates, and then they were sold to the EG4 folks who are > non-responive. > > I have a remote nightmare system that I thought I finally fixed over a > year ago. The internet connection is DSL (yepper, the 1990s are calling and > want to laugh at me) and I fixed the problem for about a year by keeping > just OpticsRE and the Resol solar thermal on the old DSL, and moving all > mobile device traffic to Starlink.This a southern Colorado "Santa Fe" style > estate with rebar-embedded concrete walls that block all wifi. All Outback > Optics is hardwired LAN, with a fiber optic LAN system installed just for > Outback because the over 50 foot distance didnt work. > > Now it is misbehaving again, on the DSL. Stays connected for 4-6 hours, > then drops. Homeowner trained the housekeeper to reboot the Mate3S, works > for 4-6 hours then drops, she only goes there once a week or 2. Can I try > again to connect the Mate3S hardwired to Starlink, or will it be once again > a futile waste of my billing hours as was last time? > > I'm just happy the homeowner is a very nice guy and OK with paying my bill > for so many site visits, even when those visits don't fix the problem. > That's a rare situation, many other clients would be suing me. > > But when I started in this business in 1994, there were no solar > monitoring LANs and only horribly slow satellite links that wouldn't do > data. I would never have known what that even meant. Now, seems like I am > doing more LAN networking work than PV volts amps watts. And this is FLA > batteries, not LiFePO4 and no BMS. > > What a strange new world we live in. > > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Feb 23 09:35:47 2025 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2025 07:35:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE+Starlink redux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's very useful advice Chris, thank you. I will do a factory reset and update firmware next weekend when I go down there. We are not using Wifi for either the Mate3S or the Resol solar thermal system, they are both on the DSL. The homeowner's Starlink is the new Gen4, so the router has a couple extra LAN ports on it....and is located only 15 feet from the Mate3S. The DSL is located 90 feet away, in the basement, and the walls are concrete with rebar that blocks wifi, which is why we had to run fiber optics for the LAN to the Mate3. Fingers crossed that I can just update and factory reset the Mate3S next weekend, and hardwire it directly to the Starlink router. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sun, Feb 23, 2025 at 5:15 AM Chris Mason via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The Starlink router comes as a WiFi device and most people use that WiFi > as is. I obtained the hard wire ethernet interface for the Starlink router > and connected my own router and managed WiFi access point system. > Most of our inverters use WiFi but cannot connect to 5Ghz WiFi, so we have > to turn that off and connect to the 2.4Ghz WiFi. > The MATE3 devices that I have used have lost the use of the ethernet > connection after some time, and Outback has told me to reset to factory and > then update the firmware. > If your MATE3 is losing connection, is it still on the local network? I > think that is an important item to determine. > > On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 12:50 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Esteemed Wrenches - can anyone provide me with recent updates as to how >> Starlink is working with outback OpticsRE currently? I tried it on a >> nightmare offgrid system last year, it didn't work, I called Outback tech >> support, they said it was an issue, and they were working on Mate3S >> firmware updates, and then they were sold to the EG4 folks who are >> non-responive. >> >> I have a remote nightmare system that I thought I finally fixed over a >> year ago. The internet connection is DSL (yepper, the 1990s are calling and >> want to laugh at me) and I fixed the problem for about a year by keeping >> just OpticsRE and the Resol solar thermal on the old DSL, and moving all >> mobile device traffic to Starlink.This a southern Colorado "Santa Fe" style >> estate with rebar-embedded concrete walls that block all wifi. All Outback >> Optics is hardwired LAN, with a fiber optic LAN system installed just for >> Outback because the over 50 foot distance didnt work. >> >> Now it is misbehaving again, on the DSL. Stays connected for 4-6 hours, >> then drops. Homeowner trained the housekeeper to reboot the Mate3S, works >> for 4-6 hours then drops, she only goes there once a week or 2. Can I try >> again to connect the Mate3S hardwired to Starlink, or will it be once again >> a futile waste of my billing hours as was last time? >> >> I'm just happy the homeowner is a very nice guy and OK with paying my >> bill for so many site visits, even when those visits don't fix the problem. >> That's a rare situation, many other clients would be suing me. >> >> But when I started in this business in 1994, there were no solar >> monitoring LANs and only horribly slow satellite links that wouldn't do >> data. I would never have known what that even meant. Now, seems like I am >> doing more LAN networking work than PV volts amps watts. And this is FLA >> batteries, not LiFePO4 and no BMS. >> >> What a strange new world we live in. >> >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> NABCEP PV Associate >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Feb 23 10:21:46 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2025 10:21:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] midnite AIO In-Reply-To: <2D83C1C3-8347-413F-9810-C5E41298A232@gmail.com> References: <2D83C1C3-8347-413F-9810-C5E41298A232@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, Prepare to be even more impressed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQF4peNdtlY Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 6:20 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Logan. > > I am super impressed with what the AIO can do. > > Question. What happens if something breaks inside. Is it field repairable? > > Thx > Jay > > On Feb 22, 2025, at 2:07 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Everyone wants to compare the AIO inverters to the older low > frequency inverters when it comes to the idle power draw. But everyone now > wants all the bells and whistles. > > Nothing is free, and if you take an older system then add up the charge > controllers draw, SCP monitoring system, Gateway device, and then add a > battery monitor to the mix you will find the Idle draw is much higher than > what the MFG says for the inverter alone. > > Feel free to check the math with a Schneider XW with 3 VH MPPT > controllers, a gateway, a SCP, and lithium batteries running closed loop. > Oh, the Schinder does not have any smart loads like most AIO do. > > My 2 cents. > > Logan > > > > On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 12:03 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> The voltage cliff is a real issue. Even though LFP batteries can be >> pretty deeply discharged without damage, for practical purposes we need to >> set the LBCO on the inverter at a relatively high voltage (or SOC) to avoid >> the steep part of the cliff altogether, rendering a good part of the >> capacity essentially useless. In situations where there is a readily >> available charging source at all times (auto-start generator or grid), >> there really should be a way to overcome this game of chicken between the >> battery protect mode and inverter LBCO. In the off-grid world, I don't >> consider that a bell & whistle, but more of a required feature. >> >> Maybe it's not so much an inverter issue as much as it is a needed >> battery feature. Imagine if there were a dry contact on a battery BMS that >> told it to stay on regardless of how it was feeling that day (subject to >> safety shutdowns, of course). Then you could force the battery to be alive >> with 48V DC connected when there is generator output voltage present, for >> example. Of course, there are risks with this simplistic example, like if >> the inverter/charger is faulted and cannot charge the battery. >> >> I think the right answer is closed-loop communications that can tell a >> BMS in protect mode to wake up because there is a charging source ready to >> go. If Midnite could implement this with AIO/Powerflo, it could be a very >> powerful selling point. On the other hand, maybe it's not that important as >> long as the inverter reliably reaches LBCO well before the battery goes >> into protect mode. That answer could be in closed loop communication logic >> where the BMS sends a warning to the inverter that it is about to shut >> down, so the inverter can stop inverting on the command of the battery, but >> keep the battery connected so a charging source will charge it. >> >> In other words, maybe it would be better for the battery to be in command >> of the inverter's LBCO rather than the inverter's own fuzzy logic. >> >> The parasitic draw issue does need to be addressed. I went through some >> calculations on some typical systems I have in the field. For example, one >> system has a 120kWh battery with four Sol-Ark 15Ks. I think the inverter >> manufacturers prefer "idle consumption" to the derogatory parasite >> comparison, but whatever you call it, let's assume 360W for four inverters. >> If the inverter LBCO is set at 12% and the protect mode is triggered at 2%, >> that gives us 33 hours until the battery reaches protect mode in theory. >> That is a substantial amount of time to get a charging source on the >> battery. But in practice, I have seen many batteries enter protect mode >> before a "properly" programmed inverter LBCO engages itself. >> >> That brings up another feature request. How about dropping the idle >> consumption of paralleled inverters and just keeping the primary inverter >> at full idle? >> >> >> Side note: I inherited a site where a Lithionics battery BMS is in >> control of the 2-wire start for a generator. In theory, this should work, >> but in practice, the owner often finds the BMS in protect mode with the >> generator not started. I haven't dug too deeply into this issue yet, but >> direct BMS control of the generator is another interesting option. But then >> you would want to build in all of the quiet time, charge percentage/voltage >> limits, exercise, and other logic that typically an inverter handles. This >> is an example of how a BMS is in control of the charging source, but it >> would be better if the BMS was telling the inverter what to do in terms of >> AGS and LBCO. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 11:17 AM Steve Higgins >> wrote: >> >>> Hello all... >>> >>> The first issue is that inverter/charger parasitic loads have increased >>> exponentially in the past 20+ years. When the LBCO cuts out, the inverter >>> may shut off, but it does not remove itself or any other DC-connected >>> device from the battery. These devices still draw a parasitic load. In >>> the 1990s, the Trace SW would pull about .3 to .4 amps of current from the >>> battery when connected to it. Today, many manufacturers use cheaper >>> transformers, and the high-frequency inverters draw a much higher current. >>> Some of these all-in-one inverters draw 1-2 amps of current from battery >>> banks, just connected and not even turned on. >>> >>> What's important here is that the battery voltage is already very low >>> when you trigger an LBCO shutdown (it's not a disconnect). For a 48-volt >>> system, this is 44 to 47 volts, depending on where you set the LBCO. When a >>> Lithium battery is this low, the voltage dropoff is much higher. With a >>> lead battery, the voltage dropoff is much more linear, but with Lithium >>> chemistry, this voltage dropoff is more like a cliff. This is why it's >>> important for many of these Lithium systems to set the Battery cutouts a >>> bit higher so people have more time to fix the situation before the BMS >>> shuts down. Ideally, the customer should be educated not to >>> over-discharge the bank, which would help. Many of these customers want >>> turnkey systems that they don't want to think about but don't want to pay >>> for it or do the work that is required to maintain it. >>> >>> Now, if the battery had gone into "Protect" mode and the BMS had shut >>> down, the battery is outputting very little votlage... the inverter/charger >>> needs voltage to run. There used to be a line of inverters in the marine >>> and RV market that would do what we called "Dead Battery Restart". This >>> meant there was a parallel circuit in the power supply so that when you >>> supplied AC to the input, a secondary power supply bypassed the regular >>> battery power supply and would power up the inverter and allow the charger >>> to run. Most of the inverter manufacturers got rid of this circuitry >>> because it was not cheap, took up space on the boards, and was just another >>> circuit that could get damaged with generator/shore power surges. I don't >>> know of an inverter today with this dead battery restarting circuit. >>> >>> With this, you need to be very careful. If the customer has cratered the >>> battery voltage and drawn down the voltage so low that they have damaged >>> the cells, jumpstarting the battery can create a charging hazard, and that >>> could cause the cells to swell internally. If that happens, the battery >>> will get warmer and warmer under charge, and eventually, you could have a >>> cell rupture. This can happen quickly with Li-ion, but with LFP, it's much >>> harder to create this problem. Usually, in LFP, cells will swell a bit, and >>> the current interrupter on the individual cell will open up and drop that >>> string, and you will lose capacity. >>> >>> Like everything else, it's a race to the bottom on cost; this affects >>> quality and features... Everyone wants the "Bells & Whistles," but they >>> don't want to pay for it. >>> >>> Steve Higgins >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 5:08 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I have been thinking a lot recently about the reasons off-grid systems >>>> can shut down, and working on strategies to prevent these nuisances that >>>> require manual intervention. >>>> >>>> Ideally, a BMS should never shut down due to low voltage/SOC because a >>>> properly programmed inverter should reach it's cut off well before the BMS >>>> decides it needs to protect the battery, especially where there is closed >>>> loop communication. But let's say that happens, where the BMS does make the >>>> DC battery output go to zero. >>>> >>>> It seems to me like the inverter should be able to start a generator, >>>> and then signal to the BMS that a charging source is available. But I'm not >>>> aware of any system that actually does this. The inverter should be able to >>>> wake up the battery. I can see this being particularly possible where one >>>> manufacturer is writing the code (I'm thinking Midnite AIO/Powerflo). >>>> >>>> Of course, the inverter would have to have power in order to do that, >>>> so if it's nighttime and there is no PV, the inverter power would need to >>>> come from somewhere. I have two thoughts. First, someone could manually >>>> start the generator, waking up the inverter, but they would not have to >>>> reset the BMS if the inverter told it to wake up. The second way would be >>>> for the inverter to somehow close the 2-wire start circuit upon inverter >>>> shutdown, restoring power to the inverter automatically. >>>> >>>> If those are not options, an external NO relay powered by the inverter >>>> output could be added to the 2-wire start circuit, perhaps with a time >>>> delay to return to the NO position to allow the generator to remain powered >>>> until the inverter does it's thing and starts charging the batteries. >>>> >>>> Anyway, my question is whether any inverter/battery combination out >>>> there works in a way that the inverter tells the battery there is a >>>> charging source available to wake up the BMS and reconnect DC power. And if >>>> not, why? >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Sun Feb 23 13:31:13 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2025 10:31:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE+Starlink redux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A couple more things that may help are using a higher quality cable than the supplied Outback cables and putting the electrostatic goop on the ends. Again, maybe these are obvious suggestions but they have certainly made a difference in the many Outback systems we have in the field. Over the years we've had several of those green cables fail(many even still testing ok). We now make new cables with cat5e/cat6(shielded if any of the run is parallel with AC conductors) especially if any significant distance is involved. I agree it will also help if you can go directly to the starlink router. We have a few with starlink and have had good experiences when hardwired. Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Sun, Feb 23, 2025, 6:36 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That's very useful advice Chris, thank you. I will do a factory reset and > update firmware next weekend when I go down there. We are not using Wifi > for either the Mate3S or the Resol solar thermal system, they are both on > the DSL. The homeowner's Starlink is the new Gen4, so the router has a > couple extra LAN ports on it....and is located only 15 feet from the > Mate3S. The DSL is located 90 feet away, in the basement, and the walls are > concrete with rebar that blocks wifi, which is why we had to run fiber > optics for the LAN to the Mate3. > > Fingers crossed that I can just update and factory reset the Mate3S next > weekend, and hardwire it directly to the Starlink router. > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > On Sun, Feb 23, 2025 at 5:15 AM Chris Mason via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> The Starlink router comes as a WiFi device and most people use that WiFi >> as is. I obtained the hard wire ethernet interface for the Starlink router >> and connected my own router and managed WiFi access point system. >> Most of our inverters use WiFi but cannot connect to 5Ghz WiFi, so we >> have to turn that off and connect to the 2.4Ghz WiFi. >> The MATE3 devices that I have used have lost the use of the ethernet >> connection after some time, and Outback has told me to reset to factory and >> then update the firmware. >> If your MATE3 is losing connection, is it still on the local network? I >> think that is an important item to determine. >> >> On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 12:50 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Esteemed Wrenches - can anyone provide me with recent updates as to how >>> Starlink is working with outback OpticsRE currently? I tried it on a >>> nightmare offgrid system last year, it didn't work, I called Outback tech >>> support, they said it was an issue, and they were working on Mate3S >>> firmware updates, and then they were sold to the EG4 folks who are >>> non-responive. >>> >>> I have a remote nightmare system that I thought I finally fixed over a >>> year ago. The internet connection is DSL (yepper, the 1990s are calling and >>> want to laugh at me) and I fixed the problem for about a year by keeping >>> just OpticsRE and the Resol solar thermal on the old DSL, and moving all >>> mobile device traffic to Starlink.This a southern Colorado "Santa Fe" style >>> estate with rebar-embedded concrete walls that block all wifi. All Outback >>> Optics is hardwired LAN, with a fiber optic LAN system installed just for >>> Outback because the over 50 foot distance didnt work. >>> >>> Now it is misbehaving again, on the DSL. Stays connected for 4-6 hours, >>> then drops. Homeowner trained the housekeeper to reboot the Mate3S, works >>> for 4-6 hours then drops, she only goes there once a week or 2. Can I try >>> again to connect the Mate3S hardwired to Starlink, or will it be once again >>> a futile waste of my billing hours as was last time? >>> >>> I'm just happy the homeowner is a very nice guy and OK with paying my >>> bill for so many site visits, even when those visits don't fix the problem. >>> That's a rare situation, many other clients would be suing me. >>> >>> But when I started in this business in 1994, there were no solar >>> monitoring LANs and only horribly slow satellite links that wouldn't do >>> data. I would never have known what that even meant. Now, seems like I am >>> doing more LAN networking work than PV volts amps watts. And this is FLA >>> batteries, not LiFePO4 and no BMS. >>> >>> What a strange new world we live in. >>> >>> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >>> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >>> NABCEP PV Associate >>> d anbob88 at gmail.com >>> 970-672-4342 >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun Feb 23 13:47:03 2025 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2025 10:47:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automatic Dark Start of Depleted Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Of course not all clients are monetarily capable or willing to oversize a Lithium based battery but many can. In my mind this is a simpler solution. Its a strategy we're using more to avoid that voltage cliff and reduce the likelihood of even nearing the BMS shutting down with all of its hassle factor.  This higher battery capacity allows a little higher LBCO voltage again to keep the system away from the dreaded BMS cutting out.  With the availability of Midnite's PowerFlo batteries at a much more reasonable price, the added cost for an increase in off-grid reliability may not be out of budget for many systems.         Gotta love the conversation about parasitic loads also, I hope manufacturers are looking at that. My $.02 Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 2/22/2025 1:06 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote: > Everyone wants to compare the AIO inverters to the older low > frequency inverters when it comes to the idle power draw. But everyone > now wants all the bells and whistles. > > Nothing is free, and if you take an older system then add up the > charge controllers draw, SCP monitoring system, Gateway device, and > then add a battery monitor to the mix you will find the Idle draw is > much higher than what the MFG says for the inverter alone. > > Feel free to check the math with a Schneider XW with 3 VH MPPT > controllers, a gateway, a SCP, and lithium batteries running closed > loop. Oh, the Schinder does not have any smart loads like most AIO do. > > My 2 cents. > > Logan > > > > On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 12:03 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > The voltage cliff is a real issue. Even though LFP batteries can > be pretty deeply discharged without damage, for practical purposes > we need to set the LBCO on the inverter at a relatively high > voltage (or SOC) to avoid the steep part of the cliff altogether, > rendering a good part of the capacity essentially useless. In > situations where there is a readily available charging source at > all times (auto-start generator or grid), there really should be a > way to overcome this game of chicken between the battery protect > mode and inverter LBCO. In the off-grid world, I don't consider > that a bell & whistle, but more of a required feature. > > Maybe it's not so much an inverter issue as much as it is a needed > battery feature. Imagine if there were a dry contact on a battery > BMS that told it to stay on regardless of how it was feeling that > day (subject to safety shutdowns, of course). Then you could force > the battery to be alive with 48V DC connected when there is > generator output voltage present, for example. Of course, there > are risks with this simplistic example, like if the > inverter/charger is faulted and cannot charge the battery. > > I think the right answer is closed-loop communications that can > tell a BMS in protect mode to wake up because there is a charging > source ready to go. If Midnite could implement this with > AIO/Powerflo, it could be a very powerful selling point. On the > other hand, maybe it's not that important as long as the inverter > reliably reaches LBCO well before the battery goes into protect > mode. That answer could be in closed loop communication logic > where the BMS sends a warning to the inverter that it is about to > shut down, so the inverter can stop inverting on the command of > the battery, but keep the battery connected so a charging source > will charge it. > > In other words, maybe it would be better for the battery to be in > command of the inverter's LBCO rather than the inverter's own > fuzzy logic. > > The parasitic draw issue does need to be addressed. I went through > some calculations on some typical systems I have in the field. For > example, one system has a 120kWh battery with four Sol-Ark 15Ks. I > think the inverter manufacturers prefer "idle consumption" to the > derogatory parasite comparison, but whatever you call it, let's > assume 360W for four inverters. If the inverter LBCO is set at 12% > and the protect mode is triggered at 2%, that gives us 33 hours > until the battery reaches protect mode in theory. That is a > substantial amount of time to get a charging source on the > battery. But in practice, I have seen many batteries enter protect > mode before a "properly" programmed inverter LBCO engages itself. > > That brings up another feature request. How about dropping the > idle consumption of paralleled inverters and just keeping the > primary inverter at full idle? > > > Side note: I inherited a site where a Lithionics battery BMS is in > control of the 2-wire start for a generator. In theory, this > should work, but in practice, the owner often finds the BMS in > protect mode with the generator not started. I haven't dug too > deeply into this issue yet, but direct BMS control of the > generator is another interesting option. But then you would want > to build in all of the quiet time, charge percentage/voltage > limits, exercise, and other logic that typically an inverter > handles. This is an example of how a BMS is in control of the > charging source, but it would be better if the BMS was telling the > inverter what to do in terms of AGS and LBCO. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 11:17 AM Steve Higgins > wrote: > > Hello all... > > The first issue is that inverter/charger parasitic loads have > increased exponentially in the past 20+ years. When the LBCO > cuts out, the inverter may shut off, but it does not remove > itself or any other DC-connected device from the battery.  >  These devices still draw a parasitic load. In the 1990s, the > Trace SW would pull about .3 to .4 amps of current from the > battery when connected to it. Today, many manufacturers use > cheaper transformers, and the high-frequency inverters draw a > much higher current. Some of these all-in-one inverters draw > 1-2 amps of current from battery banks, just connected and not > even turned on. > > What's important here is that the battery voltage is already > very low when you trigger an LBCO shutdown (it's not a > disconnect). For a 48-volt system, this is 44 to 47 volts, > depending on where you set the LBCO. When a Lithium battery is > this low, the voltage dropoff is much higher. With a lead > battery, the voltage dropoff is much more linear, but with > Lithium chemistry, this voltage dropoff is more like a cliff.  >   This is why it's important for many of these Lithium systems > to set the Battery cutouts a bit higher so people have more > time to fix the situation before the BMS shuts down.  >  Ideally, the customer should be educated not to > over-discharge the bank, which would help. Many of these > customers want turnkey systems that they don't want to think > about but don't want to pay for it or do the work that is > required to maintain it. > > Now, if the battery had gone into "Protect" mode and the BMS > had shut down, the battery is outputting very little > votlage... the inverter/charger needs voltage to run.  There > used to be a line of inverters in the marine and RV market > that would do what we called "Dead Battery Restart".   This > meant there was a parallel circuit in the power supply so that > when you supplied AC to the input, a secondary power supply > bypassed the regular battery power supply and would power up > the inverter and allow the charger to run.   Most of the > inverter manufacturers got rid of this circuitry because it > was not cheap, took up space on the boards, and was just > another circuit that could get damaged with generator/shore > power surges.   I don't know of an inverter today with this > dead battery restarting circuit. > > With this, you need to be very careful. If the customer has > cratered the battery voltage and drawn down the voltage so low > that they have damaged the cells, jumpstarting the battery can > create a charging hazard, and that could cause the cells to > swell internally. If that happens, the battery will get warmer > and warmer under charge, and eventually, you could have a cell > rupture.  This can happen quickly with Li-ion, but with LFP, > it's much harder to create this problem. Usually, in LFP, > cells will swell a bit, and the current interrupter on the > individual cell will open up and drop that string, and you > will lose capacity. > > Like everything else, it's a race to the bottom on cost; this > affects quality and features... Everyone wants the "Bells & > Whistles," but they don't want to pay for it. > > Steve Higgins > > > On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 5:08 AM Jason Szumlanski via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have been thinking a lot recently about the reasons > off-grid systems can shut down, and working on strategies > to prevent these nuisances that require manual intervention. > > Ideally, a BMS should never shut down due to low > voltage/SOC because a properly programmed inverter should > reach it's cut off well before the BMS decides it needs to > protect the battery, especially where there is closed loop > communication. But let's say that happens, where the BMS > does make the DC battery output go to zero. > > It seems to me like the inverter should be able to start a > generator, and then signal to the BMS that a charging > source is available. But I'm not aware of any system that > actually does this. The inverter should be able to wake up > the battery. I can see this being particularly possible > where one manufacturer is writing the code (I'm thinking > Midnite AIO/Powerflo). > > Of course, the inverter would have to have power in order > to do that, so if it's nighttime and there is no PV, the > inverter power would need to come from somewhere. I have > two thoughts. First, someone could manually start the > generator, waking up the inverter, but they would not have > to reset the BMS if the inverter told it to wake up. The > second way would be for the inverter to somehow close the > 2-wire start circuit upon inverter shutdown, restoring > power to the inverter automatically. > > If those are not options, an external NO relay powered by > the inverter output could be added to the 2-wire start > circuit, perhaps with a time delay to return to the NO > position to allow the generator to remain powered until > the inverter does it's thing and starts charging the > batteries. > > Anyway, my question is whether any inverter/battery > combination out there works in a way that the inverter > tells the battery there is a charging source available to > wake up the BMS and reconnect DC power. And if not, why? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Feb 23 15:39:06 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2025 15:39:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automatic Dark Start of Depleted Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree, and I am lucky to work in a space where budgets are usually healthy. On the other hand, oversizing the battery negates one of the best benefits of an LFP upgrade – less capacity needed due to deeper discharge. I would be great if they could find a way to reduce parasitic draw in paralleled inverter units in particular. The numbers add up fast. I think the attitude has become that PV is so cheap and batteries are coming down, so who cares? But the issue is real when you throw into the mix nuisance shutdowns and lack of dark start resilience. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sun, Feb 23, 2025 at 1:44 PM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Of course not all clients are monetarily capable or willing to oversize a > Lithium based battery but many can. In my mind this is a simpler solution. > Its a strategy we're using more to avoid that voltage cliff and reduce the > likelihood of even nearing the BMS shutting down with all of its hassle > factor. This higher battery capacity allows a little higher LBCO voltage > again to keep the system away from the dreaded BMS cutting out. With the > availability of Midnite's PowerFlo batteries at a much more reasonable > price, the added cost for an increase in off-grid reliability may not be > out of budget for many systems. > > Gotta love the conversation about parasitic loads also, I hope > manufacturers are looking at that. > > My $.02 > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > On 2/22/2025 1:06 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Everyone wants to compare the AIO inverters to the older low > frequency inverters when it comes to the idle power draw. But everyone now > wants all the bells and whistles. > > Nothing is free, and if you take an older system then add up the charge > controllers draw, SCP monitoring system, Gateway device, and then add a > battery monitor to the mix you will find the Idle draw is much higher than > what the MFG says for the inverter alone. > > Feel free to check the math with a Schneider XW with 3 VH MPPT > controllers, a gateway, a SCP, and lithium batteries running closed loop. > Oh, the Schinder does not have any smart loads like most AIO do. > > My 2 cents. > > Logan > > > > On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 12:03 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> The voltage cliff is a real issue. Even though LFP batteries can be >> pretty deeply discharged without damage, for practical purposes we need to >> set the LBCO on the inverter at a relatively high voltage (or SOC) to avoid >> the steep part of the cliff altogether, rendering a good part of the >> capacity essentially useless. In situations where there is a readily >> available charging source at all times (auto-start generator or grid), >> there really should be a way to overcome this game of chicken between the >> battery protect mode and inverter LBCO. In the off-grid world, I don't >> consider that a bell & whistle, but more of a required feature. >> >> Maybe it's not so much an inverter issue as much as it is a needed >> battery feature. Imagine if there were a dry contact on a battery BMS that >> told it to stay on regardless of how it was feeling that day (subject to >> safety shutdowns, of course). Then you could force the battery to be alive >> with 48V DC connected when there is generator output voltage present, for >> example. Of course, there are risks with this simplistic example, like if >> the inverter/charger is faulted and cannot charge the battery. >> >> I think the right answer is closed-loop communications that can tell a >> BMS in protect mode to wake up because there is a charging source ready to >> go. If Midnite could implement this with AIO/Powerflo, it could be a very >> powerful selling point. On the other hand, maybe it's not that important as >> long as the inverter reliably reaches LBCO well before the battery goes >> into protect mode. That answer could be in closed loop communication logic >> where the BMS sends a warning to the inverter that it is about to shut >> down, so the inverter can stop inverting on the command of the battery, but >> keep the battery connected so a charging source will charge it. >> >> In other words, maybe it would be better for the battery to be in command >> of the inverter's LBCO rather than the inverter's own fuzzy logic. >> >> The parasitic draw issue does need to be addressed. I went through some >> calculations on some typical systems I have in the field. For example, one >> system has a 120kWh battery with four Sol-Ark 15Ks. I think the inverter >> manufacturers prefer "idle consumption" to the derogatory parasite >> comparison, but whatever you call it, let's assume 360W for four inverters. >> If the inverter LBCO is set at 12% and the protect mode is triggered at 2%, >> that gives us 33 hours until the battery reaches protect mode in theory. >> That is a substantial amount of time to get a charging source on the >> battery. But in practice, I have seen many batteries enter protect mode >> before a "properly" programmed inverter LBCO engages itself. >> >> That brings up another feature request. How about dropping the idle >> consumption of paralleled inverters and just keeping the primary inverter >> at full idle? >> >> >> Side note: I inherited a site where a Lithionics battery BMS is in >> control of the 2-wire start for a generator. In theory, this should work, >> but in practice, the owner often finds the BMS in protect mode with the >> generator not started. I haven't dug too deeply into this issue yet, but >> direct BMS control of the generator is another interesting option. But then >> you would want to build in all of the quiet time, charge percentage/voltage >> limits, exercise, and other logic that typically an inverter handles. This >> is an example of how a BMS is in control of the charging source, but it >> would be better if the BMS was telling the inverter what to do in terms of >> AGS and LBCO. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 11:17 AM Steve Higgins >> wrote: >> >>> Hello all... >>> >>> The first issue is that inverter/charger parasitic loads have increased >>> exponentially in the past 20+ years. When the LBCO cuts out, the inverter >>> may shut off, but it does not remove itself or any other DC-connected >>> device from the battery. These devices still draw a parasitic load. In >>> the 1990s, the Trace SW would pull about .3 to .4 amps of current from the >>> battery when connected to it. Today, many manufacturers use cheaper >>> transformers, and the high-frequency inverters draw a much higher current. >>> Some of these all-in-one inverters draw 1-2 amps of current from battery >>> banks, just connected and not even turned on. >>> >>> What's important here is that the battery voltage is already very low >>> when you trigger an LBCO shutdown (it's not a disconnect). For a 48-volt >>> system, this is 44 to 47 volts, depending on where you set the LBCO. When a >>> Lithium battery is this low, the voltage dropoff is much higher. With a >>> lead battery, the voltage dropoff is much more linear, but with Lithium >>> chemistry, this voltage dropoff is more like a cliff. This is why it's >>> important for many of these Lithium systems to set the Battery cutouts a >>> bit higher so people have more time to fix the situation before the BMS >>> shuts down. Ideally, the customer should be educated not to >>> over-discharge the bank, which would help. Many of these customers want >>> turnkey systems that they don't want to think about but don't want to pay >>> for it or do the work that is required to maintain it. >>> >>> Now, if the battery had gone into "Protect" mode and the BMS had shut >>> down, the battery is outputting very little votlage... the inverter/charger >>> needs voltage to run. There used to be a line of inverters in the marine >>> and RV market that would do what we called "Dead Battery Restart". This >>> meant there was a parallel circuit in the power supply so that when you >>> supplied AC to the input, a secondary power supply bypassed the regular >>> battery power supply and would power up the inverter and allow the charger >>> to run. Most of the inverter manufacturers got rid of this circuitry >>> because it was not cheap, took up space on the boards, and was just another >>> circuit that could get damaged with generator/shore power surges. I don't >>> know of an inverter today with this dead battery restarting circuit. >>> >>> With this, you need to be very careful. If the customer has cratered the >>> battery voltage and drawn down the voltage so low that they have damaged >>> the cells, jumpstarting the battery can create a charging hazard, and that >>> could cause the cells to swell internally. If that happens, the battery >>> will get warmer and warmer under charge, and eventually, you could have a >>> cell rupture. This can happen quickly with Li-ion, but with LFP, it's much >>> harder to create this problem. Usually, in LFP, cells will swell a bit, and >>> the current interrupter on the individual cell will open up and drop that >>> string, and you will lose capacity. >>> >>> Like everything else, it's a race to the bottom on cost; this affects >>> quality and features... Everyone wants the "Bells & Whistles," but they >>> don't want to pay for it. >>> >>> Steve Higgins >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 5:08 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I have been thinking a lot recently about the reasons off-grid systems >>>> can shut down, and working on strategies to prevent these nuisances that >>>> require manual intervention. >>>> >>>> Ideally, a BMS should never shut down due to low voltage/SOC because a >>>> properly programmed inverter should reach it's cut off well before the BMS >>>> decides it needs to protect the battery, especially where there is closed >>>> loop communication. But let's say that happens, where the BMS does make the >>>> DC battery output go to zero. >>>> >>>> It seems to me like the inverter should be able to start a generator, >>>> and then signal to the BMS that a charging source is available. But I'm not >>>> aware of any system that actually does this. The inverter should be able to >>>> wake up the battery. I can see this being particularly possible where one >>>> manufacturer is writing the code (I'm thinking Midnite AIO/Powerflo). >>>> >>>> Of course, the inverter would have to have power in order to do that, >>>> so if it's nighttime and there is no PV, the inverter power would need to >>>> come from somewhere. I have two thoughts. First, someone could manually >>>> start the generator, waking up the inverter, but they would not have to >>>> reset the BMS if the inverter told it to wake up. The second way would be >>>> for the inverter to somehow close the 2-wire start circuit upon inverter >>>> shutdown, restoring power to the inverter automatically. >>>> >>>> If those are not options, an external NO relay powered by the inverter >>>> output could be added to the 2-wire start circuit, perhaps with a time >>>> delay to return to the NO position to allow the generator to remain powered >>>> until the inverter does it's thing and starts charging the batteries. >>>> >>>> Anyway, my question is whether any inverter/battery combination out >>>> there works in a way that the inverter tells the battery there is a >>>> charging source available to wake up the BMS and reconnect DC power. And if >>>> not, why? >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > <#m_5927145200519547983_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Feb 24 18:56:43 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2025 16:56:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AP smart Message-ID: <87FD42AF-557F-45A2-B4D7-83FF5281375A@gmail.com> Hi all. Does anyone know max distance between panels and inverter with ap smart? I have a very unusual design that might happen with 2 small houses connects to 1 meter. They want to do as much self generating as possible. But it’s 425’ from the inverter location to the only place to install panels which will be on a roof. Thanks in advance Jay From rick at solshineenergy.com Mon Feb 24 19:04:33 2025 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2025 19:04:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AP smart In-Reply-To: <87FD42AF-557F-45A2-B4D7-83FF5281375A@gmail.com> References: <87FD42AF-557F-45A2-B4D7-83FF5281375A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Specs say 1000 ft or 300 meters. Rick Brown Solshine Energy Solar Electric Contracting Services www.solshineenergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the message. Thank you. > On Feb 24, 2025, at 6:58 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi all. > > Does anyone know max distance between panels and inverter with ap smart? > > I have a very unusual design that might happen with 2 small houses connects to 1 meter. They want to do as much self generating as possible. But it’s 425’ from the inverter location to the only place to install panels which will be on a roof. > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Mon Feb 24 21:13:37 2025 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 02:13:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AP smart In-Reply-To: References: <87FD42AF-557F-45A2-B4D7-83FF5281375A@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm reading 1000M or 3300 FT. See attached. But that's not the linear distance from array ti inverter, it's the length of the entire string's cable from positive terminal to negative terminal. Include the slack in the module to module connections as well. David David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems 917-848-0215 718-389-1545 dbuckner at solaresystems.com www.solaresystems.com 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 The information contained in this email message, including any attached files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of rick--- via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, February 24, 2025 7:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: rick at solshineenergy.com ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AP smart CAUTION: External Email. Specs say 1000 ft or 300 meters. Rick Brown Solshine Energy Solar Electric Contracting Services www.solshineenergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the message. Thank you. On Feb 24, 2025, at 6:58 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi all. Does anyone know max distance between panels and inverter with ap smart? I have a very unusual design that might happen with 2 small houses connects to 1 meter. They want to do as much self generating as possible. But it’s 425’ from the inverter location to the only place to install panels which will be on a roof. Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image519628.png Type: image/png Size: 40037 bytes Desc: image519628.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image535543.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: image535543.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image390328.png Type: image/png Size: 596 bytes Desc: image390328.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Tue Feb 25 07:12:14 2025 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 07:12:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source for 600V Ethernet Cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002201db877e$82a2ad90$87e808b0$@mindspring.com> Jason I was able to get some from the below company. Automationdirect 3505 Hutchinson Road Cumming, GA 30040 1-800-633-0405 Peter Giroux ASAE From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2025 6:24 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source for 600V Ethernet Cable Does anyone have a reasonably priced source for 600V cable to run through wiring troughs to parallel inverters? Thanks, Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Tue Feb 25 13:50:44 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 10:50:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source for 600V Ethernet Cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: AEE had a reasonable amount left in their inventory clearance sale but when I tried to log in last week to view some of my account history it appeared the site has been taken down. Maybe others can confirm? Good luck, Nick On Tue, Feb 25, 2025 at 3:24 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Does anyone have a reasonably priced source for 600V cable to run through > wiring troughs to parallel inverters? > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russo.lou at gmail.com Tue Feb 25 14:12:15 2025 From: russo.lou at gmail.com (Lou Russo) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 09:12:15 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source for 600V Ethernet Cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aloha All, Confirmed. AEE store website is down for us. Aloha, Lou Russo (808) 756-6772 On Tue, Feb 25, 2025 at 8:52 AM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > AEE had a reasonable amount left in their inventory clearance sale but > when I tried to log in last week to view some of my account history it > appeared the site has been taken down. Maybe others can confirm? > > Good luck, Nick > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2025 at 3:24 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Does anyone have a reasonably priced source for 600V cable to run through >> wiring troughs to parallel inverters? >> Thanks, >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 25 14:18:42 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 11:18:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source for 600V Ethernet Cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At least for the last 18 months no AEE ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-02-25 11:12 am, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Aloha All, > > Confirmed. AEE store website is down for us. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > (808) 756-6772 > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2025 at 8:52 AM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > wrote: > AEE had a reasonable amount left in their inventory clearance sale but > when I tried to log in last week to view some of my account history it > appeared the site has been taken down. Maybe others can confirm? > > Good luck, Nick > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2025 at 3:24 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Does anyone have a reasonably priced source for 600V cable to run > through wiring troughs to parallel inverters? > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Feb 25 15:02:10 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 20:02:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source for 600V Ethernet Cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My last order was Late last April & they closed doors on May 1 or 3?? 2024 _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Source for 600V Ethernet Cable Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 19:18:42 +0000 Size: 24466 URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Tue Feb 25 15:09:23 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 12:09:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source for 600V Ethernet Cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was ordering up until December of 2024. They still had lots of Enphase equipment and some other non useful items for sale. Nick On Tue, Feb 25, 2025 at 12:03 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > My last order was Late last April & they closed doors on May 1 or 3?? 2024 > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 27 11:39:43 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2025 08:39:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Watch "Ag Drone + Snowblower....." on YouTube Message-ID: https://youtube.com/shorts/j6tYM8W4pG0?si=Z-E85E8Y-Az4equ0 William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Thu Feb 27 12:16:34 2025 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nicholas Ponzio) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2025 12:16:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backup Mode Indicator for Whole Home Battery? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Esteemed Wrenches, This issue arises periodically, and I'm hopeful someone in the group has devised a cost-effective, low-power solution. For a whole-home backup system, how can we best alert homeowners that they are operating on battery power? These homeowners do not use smartphones and won't receive push notifications. Is there a simple solution to activate a single light or audible alarm exclusively when the grid is down? This particular instance involves a FranklinWH system, but the same challenge applies to any battery with a whole-home backup and "instant-on" transfer switch. Thank you in advance for your insights. Sincerely, Nicholas Ponzio Building Energy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 27 13:26:41 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2025 10:26:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backup Mode Indicator for Whole Home Battery? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is already a single LED in most utility meters that tells you the grid is on. I have marked it with a sharpie for a client. I suppose you want something for clipping on to the Grid input that can give an alarm in the house. Amazon had something that I used once. Will try and look it up. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-02-27 9:16 am, Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches wrote: > Dear Esteemed Wrenches, > > This issue arises periodically, and I'm hopeful someone in the group > has devised a cost-effective, low-power solution. > > For a whole-home backup system, how can we best alert homeowners that > they are operating on battery power? These homeowners do not use > smartphones and won't receive push notifications. Is there a simple > solution to activate a single light or audible alarm exclusively when > the grid is down? This particular instance involves a FranklinWH > system, but the same challenge applies to any battery with a whole-home > backup and "instant-on" transfer switch. > > Thank you in advance for your insights. > > Sincerely, > Nicholas Ponzio > Building Energy > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Thu Feb 27 13:59:54 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2025 10:59:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Backup_Mode_Indicator_for_Whole_Home_Bat?= =?utf-8?q?tery=3F?= Message-ID: <1740682794.08481827@webmail.finestplanet.com> Don't modern grid backup systems have meters to give customers battery state of charge information? My home's legacy system uses a cruising equipment company e-meter. I have it configured so the display is dark when there's no significant charging or discharging happening and of course when the grid is down there's a significant discharge level so the meter lights up letting me know the grid is down. Another clue is that our internet comes through the cable system and when the grid goes down their line amps stop working so the internet also stops working. Also, I don't have large loads like our electric oven backed up and when the grid is down the clock on that goes dark and when the grid comes up again the oven makes a "beep" when the clock becomes illuminated again. Todd On Thursday, February 27, 2025 10:26am, "Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches" said: There is already a single LED in most utility meters that tells you the grid is on. I have marked it with a sharpie for a client. I suppose you want something for clipping on to the Grid input that can give an alarm in the house. Amazon had something that I used once. Will try and look it up. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [ ]( http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ )[ https://offgridsolar1.com/ ]( https://offgridsolar1.com/ )[ ]( http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ ) e-mail [ offgridsolar at sti.net ]( mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net ) text 209 813 0060 Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cheezemanrich at gmail.com Thu Feb 27 14:09:50 2025 From: cheezemanrich at gmail.com (Richard Scott) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2025 11:09:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backup Mode Indicator for Whole Home Battery? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How about a relay powered by the AC grid with SPDT contact configuration. Use normally closed contacts to close a circuit turning on a lamp or other device powered off the backup AC power. When the AC grid goes down, the relay de-energizes and closes the normally closed contacts thereby turning on the indicator device. Richard On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 9:18 AM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Dear Esteemed Wrenches, > > This issue arises periodically, and I'm hopeful someone in the group has > devised a cost-effective, low-power solution. > > For a whole-home backup system, how can we best alert homeowners that they > are operating on battery power? These homeowners do not use smartphones and > won't receive push notifications. Is there a simple solution to activate a > single light or audible alarm exclusively when the grid is down? This > particular instance involves a FranklinWH system, but the same challenge > applies to any battery with a whole-home backup and "instant-on" transfer > switch. > > Thank you in advance for your insights. > > Sincerely, > Nicholas Ponzio > Building Energy > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ericyoungren at gmail.com Thu Feb 27 15:38:41 2025 From: ericyoungren at gmail.com (Eric Youngren) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2025 12:38:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backup Mode Indicator for Whole Home Battery? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a smart IoT device that you can plug into a utility grid-only outlet and it will alert you (through the separately purchased hub) in a variety of ways when the power goes out. You could even program it to turn on a light or an alarm buzzer using a smart relay and program the logic on the phone app. Once you have the hub and phone app installed there are a ton of other "smart" sensors and devices that work with the system. My off-grid home has gotten a lot smarter in the past couple of years! https://shop.yosmart.com/ Eric On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 11:10 AM Richard Scott via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > How about a relay powered by the AC grid with SPDT contact configuration. > Use normally closed contacts to close a circuit turning on a lamp or other > device powered off the backup AC power. > When the AC grid goes down, the relay de-energizes and closes the normally > closed contacts thereby turning on the indicator device. > > Richard > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 9:18 AM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Dear Esteemed Wrenches, >> >> This issue arises periodically, and I'm hopeful someone in the group has >> devised a cost-effective, low-power solution. >> >> For a whole-home backup system, how can we best alert homeowners that >> they are operating on battery power? These homeowners do not use >> smartphones and won't receive push notifications. Is there a simple >> solution to activate a single light or audible alarm exclusively when the >> grid is down? This particular instance involves a FranklinWH system, but >> the same challenge applies to any battery with a whole-home backup and >> "instant-on" transfer switch. >> >> Thank you in advance for your insights. >> >> Sincerely, >> Nicholas Ponzio >> Building Energy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Thu Feb 27 22:08:44 2025 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2025 22:08:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backup Mode Indicator for Whole Home Battery? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Nicholas, Related to Richard's suggestion, please see the attached diagram. This was posted previously to the message board (back in the early 2010s?)—but, for the life of me, I cannot track down the original message in the archives... Corey Shalanski On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 11:09 AM Richard Scott wrote: > How about a relay powered by the AC grid with SPDT contact configuration. > Use normally closed contacts to close a circuit turning on a lamp or other > device powered off the backup AC power. > When the AC grid goes down, the relay de-energizes and closes the normally > closed contacts thereby turning on the indicator device. > > Richard > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 9:18 AM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Dear Esteemed Wrenches, >> >> This issue arises periodically, and I'm hopeful someone in the group has >> devised a cost-effective, low-power solution. >> >> For a whole-home backup system, how can we best alert homeowners that >> they are operating on battery power? These homeowners do not use >> smartphones and won't receive push notifications. Is there a simple >> solution to activate a single light or audible alarm exclusively when the >> grid is down? This particular instance involves a FranklinWH system, but >> the same challenge applies to any battery with a whole-home backup and >> "instant-on" transfer switch. >> >> Thank you in advance for your insights. >> >> Sincerely, >> Nicholas Ponzio >> Building Energy >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Canary Lamp.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 10925 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Feb 28 02:53:17 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2025 23:53:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E Residential Storage Initiative Message-ID: Colleagues: A friend asked me about the PG&E Residential Storage Initiative . I was unaware of the program but I looked it up and read through the information. Are any of you familiar with it? I would be interested in your thoughts. Thanks in advance. William PS: In case anyone wants to learn what I understand about it, below is what I wrote to my friend: 1. The program is to provide Energy Storage Systems (ESS), ostensibly for your convenience during power outages. 2. The program is implemented by Richard Heath & Associates (RHA), a private company. Their contractors or sub-contractors will do the work. This is a big risk as there are a lot of semi-skilled labor out there. 3. The program is aimed at powering only selected circuits. I don’t know if you get to choose which circuits. Segregating circuits is easy if your main panel is in an unfinished garage. It’s not so easy if your main panels is installed in the exterior wall of a formal dining room, if you have sub-panels or other complications. There is a field survey and it may be that if your home electrical system is not easy to integrate into maybe you don’t qualify. 4. You would be required to enroll in a power saving program . >From what I can tell in this program you will be notified periodically between 4 and 9 PM on summer days to reduce your power consumption, apparently through a required smart-phone app. You will be compensated by $1/kWh for reducing power. The FAQ page on the Power Savers Rewards Program has some information boxes that look like they are supposed to open when clicked but trying three different browsers I could not get the boxes to open. If you read the titles of these boxes they look pretty ominous. Supposedly you are not penalized if you do not reduce power. Reading what I could about this program made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. WM Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump3391 at gmail.com Fri Feb 28 08:15:39 2025 From: tump3391 at gmail.com (Blair May) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 08:15:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Relay in a box Message-ID: This is what I use note the multiple configurations. Blair "Tump" May -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20250228_081428.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1956865 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump3391 at gmail.com Fri Feb 28 08:52:00 2025 From: tump3391 at gmail.com (Blair May) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 08:52:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backup Mode Indicator for Whole Home Battery? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8462CA24-BF9B-4A82-86B7-F3B4EAE59BB3@gmail.com> Have a look at these relay combinations. Relay in a box @ www.functionaldevices.com . Easy install, its what I use to let me know if the grid is connected. T > On Feb 27, 2025, at 10:08 PM, Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Nicholas, > > Related to Richard's suggestion, please see the attached diagram. This was posted previously to the message board (back in the early 2010s?)—but, for the life of me, I cannot track down the original message in the archives... > > Corey Shalanski > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 11:09 AM Richard Scott > wrote: > How about a relay powered by the AC grid with SPDT contact configuration. > Use normally closed contacts to close a circuit turning on a lamp or other device powered off the backup AC power. > When the AC grid goes down, the relay de-energizes and closes the normally closed contacts thereby turning on the indicator device. > > Richard > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 9:18 AM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Dear Esteemed Wrenches, > > This issue arises periodically, and I'm hopeful someone in the group has devised a cost-effective, low-power solution. > > For a whole-home backup system, how can we best alert homeowners that they are operating on battery power? These homeowners do not use smartphones and won't receive push notifications. Is there a simple solution to activate a single light or audible alarm exclusively when the grid is down? This particular instance involves a FranklinWH system, but the same challenge applies to any battery with a whole-home backup and "instant-on" transfer switch. > > Thank you in advance for your insights. > > Sincerely, > Nicholas Ponzio > Building Energy > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Blair “TUMP” May Solarwinds Northernlights east "We must all learn to live together as brothers, or we all will perish as fools." MLK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Canary Lamp.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 10925 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Feb 28 09:34:23 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 09:34:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Can All FXR Inverters Sell? Message-ID: Are all FXR inverters capable of selling to the grid? We are working on an existing off grid system that brought in the grid. It has a stacked pair of 3048 FXR inverters. The client is considering getting a net metering contract, but does not want to invest in new equipment. Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Fri Feb 28 09:47:32 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 06:47:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Can_All_FXR_Inverters_Sell=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1740754052.720413542@webmail.finestplanet.com> Speculation here: If the FX > FXR architectures are the same, a FX inverter cannot become a GFX without different circuit boards, but the control board is a relatively easy field swap (FXR to GFXR) . Maybe check the Mate's advanced programming options to see if the FXR allows the "sell" configuration. Todd On Friday, February 28, 2025 6:34am, "Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches" said: Are all FXR inverters capable of selling to the grid? We are working on an existing off grid system that brought in the grid. It has a stacked pair of 3048 FXR inverters. The client is considering getting a net metering contract, but does not want to invest in new equipment. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional-- Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Feb 28 09:56:20 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 07:56:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Can All FXR Inverters Sell? In-Reply-To: <1740754052.720413542@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1740754052.720413542@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <291CDAB7-850F-4A3F-9FAF-6C08970FD8CB@gmail.com> Fxr can do on or off grid. The fxr is not compatible with the older fx line > On Feb 28, 2025, at 7:48 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Speculation here: > If the FX > FXR architectures are the same, a FX inverter cannot become a GFX without different circuit boards, but the control board is a relatively easy field swap (FXR to GFXR) . > > Maybe check the Mate's advanced programming options to see if the FXR allows the "sell" configuration. > > Todd > > > > > > On Friday, February 28, 2025 6:34am, "Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches" said: > > > Are all FXR inverters capable of selling to the grid? > > We are working on an existing off grid system that brought in the grid. It has a stacked pair of 3048 FXR inverters. The client is considering getting a net metering contract, but does not want to invest in new equipment. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > -- > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Fri Feb 28 17:46:45 2025 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nicholas Ponzio) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 17:46:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plainfield NJ Message-ID: Do I know any Wrenches who serve the Watchung / Plainfield area? My dear aunt is finally ready to go solar! Please message me off-list. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Feb 28 20:52:18 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2025 17:52:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backup Mode Indicator for Whole Home Battery? In-Reply-To: <8462CA24-BF9B-4A82-86B7-F3B4EAE59BB3@gmail.com> References: <8462CA24-BF9B-4A82-86B7-F3B4EAE59BB3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, so here is what l have done seems to work well back up lamp attached to the backed up loads and to the same line not backed up, so when the grid is up lamp is powered on both sides but when the utility fails the lamp has a path to neutral, a 35 watt lamp leaves nothing on the neutral that is connected in the utility transformer. l also have indicators from the genny so you can see without hearing. Fun times. On Fri, Feb 28, 2025, 5:49 AM Blair May via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Have a look at these relay combinations. Relay in a box @ > www.functionaldevices.com. Easy install, its what I use to let me know if > the grid is connected. T > > > On Feb 27, 2025, at 10:08 PM, Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Nicholas, > > Related to Richard's suggestion, please see the attached diagram. This was > posted previously to the message board (back in the early 2010s?)—but, for > the life of me, I cannot track down the original message in the archives... > > Corey Shalanski > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 11:09 AM Richard Scott > wrote: > >> How about a relay powered by the AC grid with SPDT contact configuration. >> Use normally closed contacts to close a circuit turning on a lamp or >> other device powered off the backup AC power. >> When the AC grid goes down, the relay de-energizes and closes the >> normally closed contacts thereby turning on the indicator device. >> >> Richard >> >> On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 9:18 AM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Dear Esteemed Wrenches, >>> >>> This issue arises periodically, and I'm hopeful someone in the group has >>> devised a cost-effective, low-power solution. >>> >>> For a whole-home backup system, how can we best alert homeowners that >>> they are operating on battery power? These homeowners do not use >>> smartphones and won't receive push notifications. Is there a simple >>> solution to activate a single light or audible alarm exclusively when the >>> grid is down? This particular instance involves a FranklinWH system, but >>> the same challenge applies to any battery with a whole-home backup and >>> "instant-on" transfer switch. >>> >>> Thank you in advance for your insights. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Nicholas Ponzio >>> Building Energy >>> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Blair “TUMP” May > Solarwinds Northernlights east > "We must all learn to live together as brothers, > or we all will perish as fools." > MLK > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Mar 1 10:00:08 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2025 10:00:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generic and simple AC transfer switch Message-ID: Hello All, I am looking for a non-generator brand specific 100A ATS to switch to secondary power when the utility goes out, period. IMO this means the contactor coil would have to be controlled by the utility AC, either 120 or 240,. If utility fails, the contactor switches to N/C secondary power. No outside control signals required. Thanks in advance. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Mar 1 11:21:41 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2025 08:21:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generic and simple AC transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk: I recently installed a Kohler RDT transfer switch that does exactly what you specified. The RDT is an AC-Seeking ATS. There is an option to create a contact closure upon failure of the primary AC input. Even though the device is Kohler branded it has no proprietary connections to the genset- it is generator agnostic. The unit comes in several standard sizes. It can be ordered as service equipment and with or without on-board distribution. It’s a nice piece of kit. I can send the manual if you’d like. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 7:03 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello All, > > I am looking for a non-generator brand specific 100A ATS to switch to > secondary power when the utility goes out, period. IMO this means the > contactor coil would have to be controlled > by the utility AC, either 120 or 240,. If utility fails, the contactor > switches to N/C secondary power. No outside control signals required. > Thanks in advance. > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Mar 1 11:31:29 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2025 11:31:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generic and simple AC transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Yes and thanks! Please email off-list. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 11:22 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Kirk: > > I recently installed a Kohler RDT transfer switch that does exactly what > you specified. The RDT is an AC-Seeking ATS. There is an option to create a > contact closure upon failure of the primary AC input. > > Even though the device is Kohler branded it has no proprietary connections > to the genset- it is generator agnostic. > > The unit comes in several standard sizes. It can be ordered as service > equipment and with or without on-board distribution. It’s a nice piece of > kit. > > I can send the manual if you’d like. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 7:03 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello All, >> >> I am looking for a non-generator brand specific 100A ATS to switch to >> secondary power when the utility goes out, period. IMO this means the >> contactor coil would have to be controlled >> by the utility AC, either 120 or 240,. If utility fails, the contactor >> switches to N/C secondary power. No outside control signals required. >> Thanks in advance. >> >> -- >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Sat Mar 1 11:41:02 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2025 06:41:02 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generic and simple AC transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you don't need a UL listed unit you just use Generac Part number 0L2911. We have not used it in the field but we did test in the shop and did the job. Mount it in a Hoffman type box on a backplane and off you go. William, that RDT unit looks nice, could you email me the manual as well, off-list ? Thank you. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 6:32 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi, > > Yes and thanks! Please email off-list. > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > > On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 11:22 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Kirk: >> >> I recently installed a Kohler RDT transfer switch that does exactly what >> you specified. The RDT is an AC-Seeking ATS. There is an option to create a >> contact closure upon failure of the primary AC input. >> >> Even though the device is Kohler branded it has no proprietary >> connections to the genset- it is generator agnostic. >> >> The unit comes in several standard sizes. It can be ordered as service >> equipment and with or without on-board distribution. It’s a nice piece of >> kit. >> >> I can send the manual if you’d like. >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 7:03 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello All, >>> >>> I am looking for a non-generator brand specific 100A ATS to switch to >>> secondary power when the utility goes out, period. IMO this means the >>> contactor coil would have to be controlled >>> by the utility AC, either 120 or 240,. If utility fails, the contactor >>> switches to N/C secondary power. No outside control signals required. >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>> >>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>> >>> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >>> >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> >>> 802.559.1225 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 14:38:13 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2025 11:38:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generic and simple AC transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kohler makes ATS's that l use for A/C coupled battery back up systems On Sat, Mar 1, 2025, 8:42 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > If you don't need a UL listed unit you just use Generac Part > number 0L2911. We have not used it in the field but we did test in the shop > and did the job. Mount it in a Hoffman type box on a backplane and off you > go. > > William, that RDT unit looks nice, could you email me the manual as > well, off-list ? Thank you. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 6:32 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Yes and thanks! Please email off-list. >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 11:22 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Kirk: >>> >>> I recently installed a Kohler RDT transfer switch that does exactly what >>> you specified. The RDT is an AC-Seeking ATS. There is an option to create a >>> contact closure upon failure of the primary AC input. >>> >>> Even though the device is Kohler branded it has no proprietary >>> connections to the genset- it is generator agnostic. >>> >>> The unit comes in several standard sizes. It can be ordered as service >>> equipment and with or without on-board distribution. It’s a nice piece of >>> kit. >>> >>> I can send the manual if you’d like. >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 7:03 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello All, >>>> >>>> I am looking for a non-generator brand specific 100A ATS to switch to >>>> secondary power when the utility goes out, period. IMO this means the >>>> contactor coil would have to be controlled >>>> by the utility AC, either 120 or 240,. If utility fails, the contactor >>>> switches to N/C secondary power. No outside control signals required. >>>> Thanks in advance. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>>> >>>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>>> >>>> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >>>> >>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>>> >>>> 802.559.1225 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Mar 1 16:25:17 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2025 16:25:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generic and simple AC transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If I'm reading the Kohler RDT manual right, it won't matter if both primary and emergency 240 v power are present on their seperate inputs simultaneously, and the contactor will only switch to emergency when primary power is lost. In effect the control logic assumes it started an emergency generator OK as soon as its start gen dry contact closes, seeing the "aways on" emergency source. I hope it's this way. In this case primary power is an existing battery/inverter output, and emergency will be a new & separate H2 / battery / inverter output. A "backup to the backup" for beta test of the H2, at least for now. On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 11:22 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Kirk: > > I recently installed a Kohler RDT transfer switch that does exactly what > you specified. The RDT is an AC-Seeking ATS. There is an option to create a > contact closure upon failure of the primary AC input. > > Even though the device is Kohler branded it has no proprietary connections > to the genset- it is generator agnostic. > > The unit comes in several standard sizes. It can be ordered as service > equipment and with or without on-board distribution. It’s a nice piece of > kit. > > I can send the manual if you’d like. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sat, Mar 1, 2025 at 7:03 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello All, >> >> I am looking for a non-generator brand specific 100A ATS to switch to >> secondary power when the utility goes out, period. IMO this means the >> contactor coil would have to be controlled >> by the utility AC, either 120 or 240,. If utility fails, the contactor >> switches to N/C secondary power. No outside control signals required. >> Thanks in advance. >> >> -- >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Mar 2 16:58:41 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2025 16:58:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They are going the exact opposite direction of "get[ting] back trust from the installers." This stupid $99 fee is going to end them. I am telling every poor soul in need of SolarEdge help to voice their displeasure to the manufacturer. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! I reached out to my SolarEdge rep to try to help a guy who never gained monitoring access from their original installer 2 years ago. That installer is out of business. How is it fair to charge this system owner a transfer fee? Sadly, my regional sales rep has been no help at getting the fee waived. He seems to have ghosted me. I'm not rooting for SolarEdge's demise, because I hate to see consumers spend so much money only to be abandoned. But SolarEdge doesn't seem to have any idea how much damage they are doing. Jason On Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 12:40 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > If you go back and look at the stock price, Enphase was just about to go > bankrupt in the 2017 period. They had just released their IQ micros which > were quite reliable but were riddled by a bad reputation from prior > generations with high failures, particularly M190/M210s. We were one of > those companies that had thousands of older micros installed and they were > failing left and right. They got a new CEO and totally changed things > around - it seems like they did a good job of supporting the installers and > buying back trust in their product. Afterall, if installers don't trust a > product they won't recommend it to their clients. Reliability is key! > > It seems to me that SolarEdge is in a similar situation now. Their stock > has totally tanked and installers don't generally have trust in product > reliability. They have had way too many dead on arrival inverters (or > failing shortly after install) and optimizers and for some reason just > haven't been able to buck that trend. It is a particularly horrible > experience for clients when their systems don't work well from the very > start. Maybe they have increased reliability now, I don't know. Anyway, I > hope SolarEdge is able to get product reliability up and get back trust > from the installers. > > August > > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 9:07 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I made a decision to go w Enphase when Solar Edge was a viable >> competitor. I did not like some aspects of Solar Edge, and I am glad I >> went with Enphase. I only install on this small island, 22 systems starting >> with M250's. Average project is 16 modules. I have had only one >> microinverter failure, and it emailed me to let me know and then ordered >> the replacement. The experiences do seem installer specific. Chris >> On 2/19/2025 9:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> It's really interesting how different our experiences and perspectives >> are on these issues. I know a close colleague who still loves SolarEdge. >> We're still friends. :) >> >> I have also heard the XX%+ failure rate on M-Series experience before, >> which I find strange. I'm not suggesting it's not true, but it's far from >> my experience. The M190 clearly had issues, but the M215 and M250 were >> leaps and bounds better, and we had nowhere near that kind of failure rate >> experience. And I'm in arguably one of the most grueling environments in >> terms of heat and corrosive (coastal) environments, which is one of the >> fears people have always had against microinverters. Maybe the M-Series was >> more susceptible to cold weather issues (freeze/thaw issues). >> >> My home's M215 system is visibly beat up. Having been through 4 major >> hurricanes in its lifespan and having been removed and reinstalled once and >> used and abused for numerous training exercises, I really would have >> expected it to be a headache. But with only one microinveter failure in a >> decade, I am very happy. One system is obviously not statistically >> significant, but it goes to show that people have had widely different >> experiences with early generation microinverters. >> >> I regrettably installed a Soladeck AC aggregator on the roof with fuses >> and a combined feeder back to the interconnection point, but shockingly I >> have only replaced one fuse when it popped years ago. Other than that, >> smooth sailing with my M215 micros. I leave the one failed unit as it is to >> show clients what to expect in the monitoring system if a microinverter >> fails. >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025, 8:59 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I will never promote, support, or use Enphase products again. My >>> personal decision is a result of a 50% plus failure rate of the M series, >>> as an early adopter. Now I am admittedly biased, regardless of >>> their reputation now. >>> >>> Enphase tried to make it right, and I'm still replacing the replacements >>> of the replacements 12 years later, sans-labor reimbursement. Yes, >>> the latest micros w/adapters are still free under warranty. >>> . >>> We all know that through the years, every OEM has not lived up to >>> expectations at times, be it products or support. >>> >>> For me, tolerance of some OEMs is different than others, depending on >>> the particular problem and duration of it, individual OEM history, and >>> customer reaction,etc. >>> >>> What are we, as individual installers, willing to put up with before we >>> pull the plug on a manufacturer? It's an individual decision. History and >>> relationships are right up there to support stay on board, or go. >>> >>> In the case of inverter RMAs, Vermont takes them for free at recycling >>> centers, treating them as old electronics (ie. obsolete PC's). So we as a >>> group don't have a dog in every policy fight that others may. >>> >>> Some OEM products & service policies are more of a thorn than others. >>> Obviously, No one will ever come out with, or evolve into, perfect product >>> or policy to make us all happy all the time. >>> >>> just my 2 cents worth >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:39 PM Matt Partymiller via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm not going to defend Solaredge here, there are clearly better ways >>>> they could handle account transfers but the rah-rah Enphase conclusion is >>>> maddening. >>>> >>>> It wasn't that long ago Enphase did something far worse when they >>>> dropped their labor warranty and then told basically every m-series >>>> customer to pay them distribution prices for new Micros that would function >>>> for more than two months or risk spending thousands a year on labor >>>> replacing their early junk. Basically Enphase invalidated all their >>>> original 25 year warranties and then sold new product with their full >>>> margin to effectively captive customers. Meanwhile, as the installer, we >>>> were stuck fielding the angry customer phone calls wanting to understand >>>> how we misled them into Enphase. I guess Enphase managed to stay in >>>> business though.... >>>> >>>> Matt >>>> >>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>>> behalf of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 19, 2025 6:20:01 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far >>>> >>>> >>>> Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or >>>> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is >>>> safe. >>>> >>>> I just wrote a scathing blog post, notified my staff not to take on new >>>> SolarEdge service clients, and blasted out messages and DMs on social media >>>> about this despicable new move by SolarEdge. Imagine being one of the many >>>> system owners impacted by solar contractors going out of business, only to >>>> find out that the manufacturer of your equipment wants to charge you to >>>> have a new willing contractor authorized to monitor and service your system. >>>> >>>> By contrast, Enphase owners can have as many contractors monitor their >>>> systems as they want, and they can initiate it themselves and for free, 24 >>>> hours a day without delay. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:22 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> When I fill out the online form to transfer an existing SolarEdge >>>> system to my company for monitoring, the site now takes me to a payment >>>> form demanding $99 to transfer the site monitoring. >>>> >>>> I have been told that as of 2/17/2025, SolarEdge has a new policy, and >>>> now changes for transferring a site to a new installer. >>>> >>>> WOW. Nobody wants to touch their hardware around here, and I must be >>>> the last one because SolarEdge tech support is literally giving customers >>>> my name when they can't find help. >>>> >>>> SolarEdge is done. Dead to me. They can find someone else to cover >>>> their warranty obligations. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Desing Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>> >>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>> >>> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >>> >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> >>> 802.559.1225 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel, PE >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> (401) 447-5773 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Mon Mar 3 09:48:58 2025 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2025 07:48:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generic and simple AC transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I posed a similar question to the list in September that you might wish to read through, Kirk. Read the thread titled ATS Brand Recommendations in the archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=ATS+Brand+Recommendation&l=re-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org Cheers, Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 12:21:00 2025 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2025 12:21:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <065A00C9-7A1A-4A72-87D7-3C427B72111E@gmail.com> We have another awkward thing going on with Solaredge right now. Twice in the last month or so, one of our customers systems has been transferred to another installer without the customers (or our) permission. The other installer isn’t even local. Maybe the $99 fee will help alleviate that from happening again…idk. Tech support did not respond well the first time(said we needed to fill out a transfer form), and this time they haven’t responded yet (been almost a week). Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook > On Mar 2, 2025, at 4:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > They are going the exact opposite direction of "get[ting] back trust from the installers." This stupid $99 fee is going to end them. I am telling every poor soul in need of SolarEdge help to voice their displeasure to the manufacturer. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! > > I reached out to my SolarEdge rep to try to help a guy who never gained monitoring access from their original installer 2 years ago. That installer is out of business. How is it fair to charge this system owner a transfer fee? Sadly, my regional sales rep has been no help at getting the fee waived. He seems to have ghosted me. > > I'm not rooting for SolarEdge's demise, because I hate to see consumers spend so much money only to be abandoned. But SolarEdge doesn't seem to have any idea how much damage they are doing. > > Jason > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 12:40 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches > wrote: > If you go back and look at the stock price, Enphase was just about to go bankrupt in the 2017 period. They had just released their IQ micros which were quite reliable but were riddled by a bad reputation from prior generations with high failures, particularly M190/M210s. We were one of those companies that had thousands of older micros installed and they were failing left and right. They got a new CEO and totally changed things around - it seems like they did a good job of supporting the installers and buying back trust in their product. Afterall, if installers don't trust a product they won't recommend it to their clients. Reliability is key! > > It seems to me that SolarEdge is in a similar situation now. Their stock has totally tanked and installers don't generally have trust in product reliability. They have had way too many dead on arrival inverters (or failing shortly after install) and optimizers and for some reason just haven't been able to buck that trend. It is a particularly horrible experience for clients when their systems don't work well from the very start. Maybe they have increased reliability now, I don't know. Anyway, I hope SolarEdge is able to get product reliability up and get back trust from the installers. > > August > > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 9:07 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I made a decision to go w Enphase when Solar Edge was a viable competitor. I did not like some aspects of Solar Edge, and I am glad I went with Enphase. I only install on this small island, 22 systems starting with M250's. Average project is 16 modules. I have had only one microinverter failure, and it emailed me to let me know and then ordered the replacement. The experiences do seem installer specific. Chris > > On 2/19/2025 9:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> It's really interesting how different our experiences and perspectives are on these issues. I know a close colleague who still loves SolarEdge. We're still friends. :) >> >> I have also heard the XX%+ failure rate on M-Series experience before, which I find strange. I'm not suggesting it's not true, but it's far from my experience. The M190 clearly had issues, but the M215 and M250 were leaps and bounds better, and we had nowhere near that kind of failure rate experience. And I'm in arguably one of the most grueling environments in terms of heat and corrosive (coastal) environments, which is one of the fears people have always had against microinverters. Maybe the M-Series was more susceptible to cold weather issues (freeze/thaw issues). >> >> My home's M215 system is visibly beat up. Having been through 4 major hurricanes in its lifespan and having been removed and reinstalled once and used and abused for numerous training exercises, I really would have expected it to be a headache. But with only one microinveter failure in a decade, I am very happy. One system is obviously not statistically significant, but it goes to show that people have had widely different experiences with early generation microinverters. >> >> I regrettably installed a Soladeck AC aggregator on the roof with fuses and a combined feeder back to the interconnection point, but shockingly I have only replaced one fuse when it popped years ago. Other than that, smooth sailing with my M215 micros. I leave the one failed unit as it is to show clients what to expect in the monitoring system if a microinverter fails. >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025, 8:59 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> I will never promote, support, or use Enphase products again. My personal decision is a result of a 50% plus failure rate of the M series, as an early adopter. Now I am admittedly biased, regardless of their reputation now. >> >> Enphase tried to make it right, and I'm still replacing the replacements of the replacements 12 years later, sans-labor reimbursement. Yes, the latest micros w/adapters are still free under warranty. >> . >> We all know that through the years, every OEM has not lived up to expectations at times, be it products or support. >> >> For me, tolerance of some OEMs is different than others, depending on the particular problem and duration of it, individual OEM history, and customer reaction,etc. >> >> What are we, as individual installers, willing to put up with before we pull the plug on a manufacturer? It's an individual decision. History and relationships are right up there to support stay on board, or go. >> >> In the case of inverter RMAs, Vermont takes them for free at recycling centers, treating them as old electronics (ie. obsolete PC's). So we as a group don't have a dog in every policy fight that others may. >> >> Some OEM products & service policies are more of a thorn than others. Obviously, No one will ever come out with, or evolve into, perfect product or policy to make us all happy all the time. >> >> just my 2 cents worth >> >> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:39 PM Matt Partymiller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> I'm not going to defend Solaredge here, there are clearly better ways they could handle account transfers but the rah-rah Enphase conclusion is maddening. >> >> It wasn't that long ago Enphase did something far worse when they dropped their labor warranty and then told basically every m-series customer to pay them distribution prices for new Micros that would function for more than two months or risk spending thousands a year on labor replacing their early junk. Basically Enphase invalidated all their original 25 year warranties and then sold new product with their full margin to effectively captive customers. Meanwhile, as the installer, we were stuck fielding the angry customer phone calls wanting to understand how we misled them into Enphase. I guess Enphase managed to stay in business though.... >> >> Matt >> >> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone >> Get Outlook for Android >> From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2025 6:20:01 PM >> To: RE-wrenches > >> Cc: Jason Szumlanski > >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far >> >> >> Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >> >> I just wrote a scathing blog post, notified my staff not to take on new SolarEdge service clients, and blasted out messages and DMs on social media about this despicable new move by SolarEdge. Imagine being one of the many system owners impacted by solar contractors going out of business, only to find out that the manufacturer of your equipment wants to charge you to have a new willing contractor authorized to monitor and service your system. >> >> By contrast, Enphase owners can have as many contractors monitor their systems as they want, and they can initiate it themselves and for free, 24 hours a day without delay. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:22 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: >> When I fill out the online form to transfer an existing SolarEdge system to my company for monitoring, the site now takes me to a payment form demanding $99 to transfer the site monitoring. >> >> I have been told that as of 2/17/2025, SolarEdge has a new policy, and now changes for transferring a site to a new installer. >> >> WOW. Nobody wants to touch their hardware around here, and I must be the last one because SolarEdge tech support is literally giving customers my name when they can't find help. >> >> SolarEdge is done. Dead to me. They can find someone else to cover their warranty obligations. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Desing Group >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh at vermont.solar >> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC >> Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!! >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> 802.559.1225 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Mar 3 13:34:11 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2025 10:34:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] FYI: Optics RE Message-ID: <1741026851.608320359@webmail.finestplanet.com> Optics RE is down for maintenance: https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?p=110688#p110688 Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 14:13:58 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2025 11:13:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far In-Reply-To: <065A00C9-7A1A-4A72-87D7-3C427B72111E@gmail.com> References: <065A00C9-7A1A-4A72-87D7-3C427B72111E@gmail.com> Message-ID: This same thing happened to me with enphase including my own home, interesting thing they did was only pick sites, not all. Enphase had no explanation. Fun times On Mon, Mar 3, 2025, 9:22 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We have another awkward thing going on with Solaredge right now. Twice in > the last month or so, one of our customers systems has been transferred to > another installer without the customers (or our) permission. The other > installer isn’t even local. Maybe the $99 fee will help alleviate that > from happening again…idk. Tech support did not respond well the first > time(said we needed to fill out a transfer form), and this time they > haven’t responded yet (been almost a week). > > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > > On Mar 2, 2025, at 4:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > They are going the exact opposite direction of "get[ting] back trust from > the installers." This stupid $99 fee is going to end them. I am telling > every poor soul in need of SolarEdge help to voice their displeasure to the > manufacturer. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! > > I reached out to my SolarEdge rep to try to help a guy who never gained > monitoring access from their original installer 2 years ago. That installer > is out of business. How is it fair to charge this system owner a transfer > fee? Sadly, my regional sales rep has been no help at getting the fee > waived. He seems to have ghosted me. > > I'm not rooting for SolarEdge's demise, because I hate to see consumers > spend so much money only to be abandoned. But SolarEdge doesn't seem to > have any idea how much damage they are doing. > > Jason > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 12:40 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> If you go back and look at the stock price, Enphase was just about to go >> bankrupt in the 2017 period. They had just released their IQ micros which >> were quite reliable but were riddled by a bad reputation from prior >> generations with high failures, particularly M190/M210s. We were one of >> those companies that had thousands of older micros installed and they were >> failing left and right. They got a new CEO and totally changed things >> around - it seems like they did a good job of supporting the installers and >> buying back trust in their product. Afterall, if installers don't trust a >> product they won't recommend it to their clients. Reliability is key! >> >> It seems to me that SolarEdge is in a similar situation now. Their stock >> has totally tanked and installers don't generally have trust in product >> reliability. They have had way too many dead on arrival inverters (or >> failing shortly after install) and optimizers and for some reason just >> haven't been able to buck that trend. It is a particularly horrible >> experience for clients when their systems don't work well from the very >> start. Maybe they have increased reliability now, I don't know. Anyway, I >> hope SolarEdge is able to get product reliability up and get back trust >> from the installers. >> >> August >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 9:07 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I made a decision to go w Enphase when Solar Edge was a viable >>> competitor. I did not like some aspects of Solar Edge, and I am glad I >>> went with Enphase. I only install on this small island, 22 systems starting >>> with M250's. Average project is 16 modules. I have had only one >>> microinverter failure, and it emailed me to let me know and then ordered >>> the replacement. The experiences do seem installer specific. Chris >>> On 2/19/2025 9:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> It's really interesting how different our experiences and perspectives >>> are on these issues. I know a close colleague who still loves SolarEdge. >>> We're still friends. :) >>> >>> I have also heard the XX%+ failure rate on M-Series experience before, >>> which I find strange. I'm not suggesting it's not true, but it's far from >>> my experience. The M190 clearly had issues, but the M215 and M250 were >>> leaps and bounds better, and we had nowhere near that kind of failure rate >>> experience. And I'm in arguably one of the most grueling environments in >>> terms of heat and corrosive (coastal) environments, which is one of the >>> fears people have always had against microinverters. Maybe the M-Series was >>> more susceptible to cold weather issues (freeze/thaw issues). >>> >>> My home's M215 system is visibly beat up. Having been through 4 major >>> hurricanes in its lifespan and having been removed and reinstalled once and >>> used and abused for numerous training exercises, I really would have >>> expected it to be a headache. But with only one microinveter failure in a >>> decade, I am very happy. One system is obviously not statistically >>> significant, but it goes to show that people have had widely different >>> experiences with early generation microinverters. >>> >>> I regrettably installed a Soladeck AC aggregator on the roof with fuses >>> and a combined feeder back to the interconnection point, but shockingly I >>> have only replaced one fuse when it popped years ago. Other than that, >>> smooth sailing with my M215 micros. I leave the one failed unit as it is to >>> show clients what to expect in the monitoring system if a microinverter >>> fails. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025, 8:59 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I will never promote, support, or use Enphase products again. My >>>> personal decision is a result of a 50% plus failure rate of the M series, >>>> as an early adopter. Now I am admittedly biased, regardless of >>>> their reputation now. >>>> >>>> Enphase tried to make it right, and I'm still replacing the >>>> replacements of the replacements 12 years later, sans-labor reimbursement. >>>> Yes, the latest micros w/adapters are still free under warranty. >>>> . >>>> We all know that through the years, every OEM has not lived up to >>>> expectations at times, be it products or support. >>>> >>>> For me, tolerance of some OEMs is different than others, depending on >>>> the particular problem and duration of it, individual OEM history, and >>>> customer reaction,etc. >>>> >>>> What are we, as individual installers, willing to put up with before we >>>> pull the plug on a manufacturer? It's an individual decision. History and >>>> relationships are right up there to support stay on board, or go. >>>> >>>> In the case of inverter RMAs, Vermont takes them for free at recycling >>>> centers, treating them as old electronics (ie. obsolete PC's). So we as a >>>> group don't have a dog in every policy fight that others may. >>>> >>>> Some OEM products & service policies are more of a thorn than others. >>>> Obviously, No one will ever come out with, or evolve into, perfect product >>>> or policy to make us all happy all the time. >>>> >>>> just my 2 cents worth >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:39 PM Matt Partymiller via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm not going to defend Solaredge here, there are clearly better ways >>>>> they could handle account transfers but the rah-rah Enphase conclusion is >>>>> maddening. >>>>> >>>>> It wasn't that long ago Enphase did something far worse when they >>>>> dropped their labor warranty and then told basically every m-series >>>>> customer to pay them distribution prices for new Micros that would function >>>>> for more than two months or risk spending thousands a year on labor >>>>> replacing their early junk. Basically Enphase invalidated all their >>>>> original 25 year warranties and then sold new product with their full >>>>> margin to effectively captive customers. Meanwhile, as the installer, we >>>>> were stuck fielding the angry customer phone calls wanting to understand >>>>> how we misled them into Enphase. I guess Enphase managed to stay in >>>>> business though.... >>>>> >>>>> Matt >>>>> >>>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>>>> behalf of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 19, 2025 6:20:01 PM >>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links >>>>> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is >>>>> safe. >>>>> >>>>> I just wrote a scathing blog post, notified my staff not to take on >>>>> new SolarEdge service clients, and blasted out messages and DMs on social >>>>> media about this despicable new move by SolarEdge. Imagine being one of the >>>>> many system owners impacted by solar contractors going out of business, >>>>> only to find out that the manufacturer of your equipment wants to charge >>>>> you to have a new willing contractor authorized to monitor and service your >>>>> system. >>>>> >>>>> By contrast, Enphase owners can have as many contractors monitor their >>>>> systems as they want, and they can initiate it themselves and for free, 24 >>>>> hours a day without delay. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:22 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> When I fill out the online form to transfer an existing SolarEdge >>>>> system to my company for monitoring, the site now takes me to a payment >>>>> form demanding $99 to transfer the site monitoring. >>>>> >>>>> I have been told that as of 2/17/2025, SolarEdge has a new policy, and >>>>> now changes for transferring a site to a new installer. >>>>> >>>>> WOW. Nobody wants to touch their hardware around here, and I must be >>>>> the last one because SolarEdge tech support is literally giving customers >>>>> my name when they can't find help. >>>>> >>>>> SolarEdge is done. Dead to me. They can find someone else to cover >>>>> their warranty obligations. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Desing Group >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>>> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>>> 802.559.1225 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >>> Christopher Warfel, PE >>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>> (401) 447-5773 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 14:18:46 2025 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2025 14:18:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mystery Racking Message-ID: I occasionally see "name that racking"-type posts on this message board - so figured I would post one of my own... Please see attached photos. As far as I can tell, it is just a random assembly of steel fence posts and C-purlins (and other metallic structural components). There are a few different modules at this site, and their frames are attached to the racking via through bolts (or, in some cases, via self-tapping screws!). Our company is currently considering purchasing this project, but one of my up-front concerns is that the racking may not be listed to UL 2703. Thanks in advance to anyone who can confirm that this is (or is not) a legitimate racking product. Corey Shalanski Cherry Street Energy Atlanta, GA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20250218_085506.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1059774 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20250218_104930.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1121454 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Mar 3 14:55:31 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2025 14:55:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far In-Reply-To: <065A00C9-7A1A-4A72-87D7-3C427B72111E@gmail.com> References: <065A00C9-7A1A-4A72-87D7-3C427B72111E@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't think the $99 fee is the right approach to controlling that issue. The OWNER should be in control of who gets access to their site. For Enphase, the process is pretty simple - send the customer a custom link or have them change it in their app. And it's essentially instant. Why can't SolarEdge have multiple contractors with access at the same time? What if a customer wants a second opinion? And why does SolarEdge feel the need to be in control of access? It doesn't make sense. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Mon, Mar 3, 2025 at 12:22 PM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We have another awkward thing going on with Solaredge right now. Twice in > the last month or so, one of our customers systems has been transferred to > another installer without the customers (or our) permission. The other > installer isn’t even local. Maybe the $99 fee will help alleviate that > from happening again…idk. Tech support did not respond well the first > time(said we needed to fill out a transfer form), and this time they > haven’t responded yet (been almost a week). > > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > > On Mar 2, 2025, at 4:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > They are going the exact opposite direction of "get[ting] back trust from > the installers." This stupid $99 fee is going to end them. I am telling > every poor soul in need of SolarEdge help to voice their displeasure to the > manufacturer. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! > > I reached out to my SolarEdge rep to try to help a guy who never gained > monitoring access from their original installer 2 years ago. That installer > is out of business. How is it fair to charge this system owner a transfer > fee? Sadly, my regional sales rep has been no help at getting the fee > waived. He seems to have ghosted me. > > I'm not rooting for SolarEdge's demise, because I hate to see consumers > spend so much money only to be abandoned. But SolarEdge doesn't seem to > have any idea how much damage they are doing. > > Jason > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 12:40 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> If you go back and look at the stock price, Enphase was just about to go >> bankrupt in the 2017 period. They had just released their IQ micros which >> were quite reliable but were riddled by a bad reputation from prior >> generations with high failures, particularly M190/M210s. We were one of >> those companies that had thousands of older micros installed and they were >> failing left and right. They got a new CEO and totally changed things >> around - it seems like they did a good job of supporting the installers and >> buying back trust in their product. Afterall, if installers don't trust a >> product they won't recommend it to their clients. Reliability is key! >> >> It seems to me that SolarEdge is in a similar situation now. Their stock >> has totally tanked and installers don't generally have trust in product >> reliability. They have had way too many dead on arrival inverters (or >> failing shortly after install) and optimizers and for some reason just >> haven't been able to buck that trend. It is a particularly horrible >> experience for clients when their systems don't work well from the very >> start. Maybe they have increased reliability now, I don't know. Anyway, I >> hope SolarEdge is able to get product reliability up and get back trust >> from the installers. >> >> August >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 9:07 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I made a decision to go w Enphase when Solar Edge was a viable >>> competitor. I did not like some aspects of Solar Edge, and I am glad I >>> went with Enphase. I only install on this small island, 22 systems starting >>> with M250's. Average project is 16 modules. I have had only one >>> microinverter failure, and it emailed me to let me know and then ordered >>> the replacement. The experiences do seem installer specific. Chris >>> On 2/19/2025 9:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> It's really interesting how different our experiences and perspectives >>> are on these issues. I know a close colleague who still loves SolarEdge. >>> We're still friends. :) >>> >>> I have also heard the XX%+ failure rate on M-Series experience before, >>> which I find strange. I'm not suggesting it's not true, but it's far from >>> my experience. The M190 clearly had issues, but the M215 and M250 were >>> leaps and bounds better, and we had nowhere near that kind of failure rate >>> experience. And I'm in arguably one of the most grueling environments in >>> terms of heat and corrosive (coastal) environments, which is one of the >>> fears people have always had against microinverters. Maybe the M-Series was >>> more susceptible to cold weather issues (freeze/thaw issues). >>> >>> My home's M215 system is visibly beat up. Having been through 4 major >>> hurricanes in its lifespan and having been removed and reinstalled once and >>> used and abused for numerous training exercises, I really would have >>> expected it to be a headache. But with only one microinveter failure in a >>> decade, I am very happy. One system is obviously not statistically >>> significant, but it goes to show that people have had widely different >>> experiences with early generation microinverters. >>> >>> I regrettably installed a Soladeck AC aggregator on the roof with fuses >>> and a combined feeder back to the interconnection point, but shockingly I >>> have only replaced one fuse when it popped years ago. Other than that, >>> smooth sailing with my M215 micros. I leave the one failed unit as it is to >>> show clients what to expect in the monitoring system if a microinverter >>> fails. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025, 8:59 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I will never promote, support, or use Enphase products again. My >>>> personal decision is a result of a 50% plus failure rate of the M series, >>>> as an early adopter. Now I am admittedly biased, regardless of >>>> their reputation now. >>>> >>>> Enphase tried to make it right, and I'm still replacing the >>>> replacements of the replacements 12 years later, sans-labor reimbursement. >>>> Yes, the latest micros w/adapters are still free under warranty. >>>> . >>>> We all know that through the years, every OEM has not lived up to >>>> expectations at times, be it products or support. >>>> >>>> For me, tolerance of some OEMs is different than others, depending on >>>> the particular problem and duration of it, individual OEM history, and >>>> customer reaction,etc. >>>> >>>> What are we, as individual installers, willing to put up with before we >>>> pull the plug on a manufacturer? It's an individual decision. History and >>>> relationships are right up there to support stay on board, or go. >>>> >>>> In the case of inverter RMAs, Vermont takes them for free at recycling >>>> centers, treating them as old electronics (ie. obsolete PC's). So we as a >>>> group don't have a dog in every policy fight that others may. >>>> >>>> Some OEM products & service policies are more of a thorn than others. >>>> Obviously, No one will ever come out with, or evolve into, perfect product >>>> or policy to make us all happy all the time. >>>> >>>> just my 2 cents worth >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 7:39 PM Matt Partymiller via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm not going to defend Solaredge here, there are clearly better ways >>>>> they could handle account transfers but the rah-rah Enphase conclusion is >>>>> maddening. >>>>> >>>>> It wasn't that long ago Enphase did something far worse when they >>>>> dropped their labor warranty and then told basically every m-series >>>>> customer to pay them distribution prices for new Micros that would function >>>>> for more than two months or risk spending thousands a year on labor >>>>> replacing their early junk. Basically Enphase invalidated all their >>>>> original 25 year warranties and then sold new product with their full >>>>> margin to effectively captive customers. Meanwhile, as the installer, we >>>>> were stuck fielding the angry customer phone calls wanting to understand >>>>> how we misled them into Enphase. I guess Enphase managed to stay in >>>>> business though.... >>>>> >>>>> Matt >>>>> >>>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>>>> behalf of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 19, 2025 6:20:01 PM >>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Has Gone Too Far >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links >>>>> or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is >>>>> safe. >>>>> >>>>> I just wrote a scathing blog post, notified my staff not to take on >>>>> new SolarEdge service clients, and blasted out messages and DMs on social >>>>> media about this despicable new move by SolarEdge. Imagine being one of the >>>>> many system owners impacted by solar contractors going out of business, >>>>> only to find out that the manufacturer of your equipment wants to charge >>>>> you to have a new willing contractor authorized to monitor and service your >>>>> system. >>>>> >>>>> By contrast, Enphase owners can have as many contractors monitor their >>>>> systems as they want, and they can initiate it themselves and for free, 24 >>>>> hours a day without delay. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:22 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> When I fill out the online form to transfer an existing SolarEdge >>>>> system to my company for monitoring, the site now takes me to a payment >>>>> form demanding $99 to transfer the site monitoring. >>>>> >>>>> I have been told that as of 2/17/2025, SolarEdge has a new policy, and >>>>> now changes for transferring a site to a new installer. >>>>> >>>>> WOW. Nobody wants to touch their hardware around here, and I must be >>>>> the last one because SolarEdge tech support is literally giving customers >>>>> my name when they can't find help. >>>>> >>>>> SolarEdge is done. Dead to me. They can find someone else to cover >>>>> their warranty obligations. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Desing Group >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>>> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>>> 802.559.1225 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >>> Christopher Warfel, PE >>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>> (401) 447-5773 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 15:35:07 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2025 13:35:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mystery Racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68550105-76CB-45C4-93F6-DE549A29D4AF@gmail.com> I vote for custom Jay > On Mar 3, 2025, at 12:19 PM, Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I occasionally see "name that racking"-type posts on this message board - so figured I would post one of my own... > > Please see attached photos. As far as I can tell, it is just a random assembly of steel fence posts and C-purlins (and other metallic structural components). There are a few different modules at this site, and their frames are attached to the racking via through bolts (or, in some cases, via self-tapping screws!). > > Our company is currently considering purchasing this project, but one of my up-front concerns is that the racking may not be listed to UL 2703. > > Thanks in advance to anyone who can confirm that this is (or is not) a legitimate racking product. > > Corey Shalanski > Cherry Street Energy > Atlanta, GA > <20250218_085506.jpg> > <20250218_104930.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Mon Mar 3 15:38:28 2025 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2025 20:38:28 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mystery Racking In-Reply-To: <68550105-76CB-45C4-93F6-DE549A29D4AF@gmail.com> References: <68550105-76CB-45C4-93F6-DE549A29D4AF@gmail.com> Message-ID: I believe that is from Taillight Solar Racking! David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems 917-848-0215 718-389-1545 dbuckner at solaresystems.com www.solaresystems.com 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 The information contained in this email message, including any attached files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, March 3, 2025 3:35 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay ; Corey Shalanski ; re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mystery Racking CAUTION: External Email. I vote for custom Jay > On Mar 3, 2025, at 12:19 PM, Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I occasionally see "name that racking"-type posts on this message board - so figured I would post one of my own... > > Please see attached photos. As far as I can tell, it is just a random assembly of steel fence posts and C-purlins (and other metallic structural components). There are a few different modules at this site, and their frames are attached to the racking via through bolts (or, in some cases, via self-tapping screws!). > > Our company is currently considering purchasing this project, but one of my up-front concerns is that the racking may not be listed to UL 2703. > > Thanks in advance to anyone who can confirm that this is (or is not) a legitimate racking product. > > Corey Shalanski > Cherry Street Energy > Atlanta, GA > <20250218_085506.jpg> > <20250218_104930.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org/ > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org/ List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image383046.png Type: image/png Size: 40037 bytes Desc: image383046.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image585293.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: image585293.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image876862.png Type: image/png Size: 596 bytes Desc: image876862.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image853248.png Type: image/png Size: 499 bytes Desc: image853248.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image702279.png Type: image/png Size: 804 bytes Desc: image702279.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image912874.png Type: image/png Size: 608 bytes Desc: image912874.png URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Tue Mar 4 16:58:40 2025 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2025 13:58:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FYI: Optics RE In-Reply-To: <1741026851.608320359@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1741026851.608320359@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Anyone been able to get back into OpticsRE yet? Been since yesterday mid day haven't been able to log in. Thanks Kirpal On Mon, Mar 3, 2025, 10:34 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Optics RE is down for maintenance: > > https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?p=110688#p110688 > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Mar 4 17:42:29 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2025 16:42:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FYI: Optics RE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.png Type: image/png Size: 289187 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Tue Mar 4 18:02:34 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2025 15:02:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] FYI: Optics RE In-Reply-To: References: <1741026851.608320359@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <1741129354.46584849@webmail.finestplanet.com> "We are performing a server migration and we expect at most a five-day maintenance window that started on March 3rd Monday at 6:00 AM pacific time until March 8th Saturday 12:00 AM pacific time." [ https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?t=19257&start=25 ]( https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?t=19257&start=25 ) On Tuesday, March 4, 2025 1:58pm, "Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches" said: Anyone been able to get back into OpticsRE yet? Been since yesterday mid day haven't been able to log in. Thanks Kirpal On Mon, Mar 3, 2025, 10:34 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote: Optics RE is down for maintenance: [ https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?p=110688#p110688 ]( https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?p=110688#p110688 ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: [ http://re-wrenches.org ]( http://re-wrenches.org ) List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: [ https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ]( https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ) [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List rules & etiquette: [ http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 5 08:11:47 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2025 08:11:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Popping Sounds From Roof Message-ID: I had a person contact me years ago who said her solar installer put a system up that caused popping noises everyday on her roof. It was a shingle roof, older home, and ultimately we chalked it up to expansion and contraction. Everything was secure and there were no indications of structural, cosmetic, or waterproof integrity being jeopardized. That was my only experience with this issue until we did a recent installation on a 5V exposed fastener metal roof using S-5 SolarFoot mounts attached through the metal into the plywood decking only. This new client is reporting numerous loud popping sounds every day. Based on the time of day and weather, it must have something to do with expansion and contraction, but we cannot pinpoint the problem. Of course, the day we go to try to duplicate the issue, there were no sounds at all that we could detect up on the roof after waiting hours in observation. We did have one row of 13 panels mounted in portrait that was on the longer side, so we decided to split the rail by putting a gap in the middle. That, apparently, has not solved the issue. We have checked the torque on every single fastener in the system. This installation is no different than many many others we have done using the same materials on the same roof type. Has anybody experienced similar issues, and how did you go about addressing them? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Mar 5 08:49:00 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2025 08:49:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Popping Sounds From Roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, You mentioning popping sounds reminds me of two separate systems that I was called in to service recently where the homeowner was reporting popping sounds. These were coming from the ground, not the roof, so it may not apply. Both systems were roughly 10 years old, and the original installer used PVC conduit off the roof. Water had been getting into the conduit and running down to the combiner (Enphase system). Things were quite corroded in the combiner panels and the sounds were coming from a failing breaker. It sounds like your system is newer, but maybe there is a bad breaker? In one case the customer was certain the noise was coming from the meter, but upon inspection I am nearly certain it was the combiner instead. These were more of an "electronic" popping noise though. If your popping noise is more structural have the customer listen out to see if it happens right when the sun comes out from a cloud, or goes behind a cloud. With vinyl siding or metal roofs, I'll sometimes hear the expansion and contraction but it has to be a very quick change in temperature and I only hear it on those quick transitions from sun to clouds. Good luck tracking it down! Cheers, Dave On Wed, Mar 5, 2025 at 8:12 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I had a person contact me years ago who said her solar installer put a > system up that caused popping noises everyday on her roof. It was a shingle > roof, older home, and ultimately we chalked it up to expansion and > contraction. Everything was secure and there were no indications of > structural, cosmetic, or waterproof integrity being jeopardized. > > That was my only experience with this issue until we did a recent > installation on a 5V exposed fastener metal roof using S-5 SolarFoot mounts > attached through the metal into the plywood decking only. This new client > is reporting numerous loud popping sounds every day. Based on the time of > day and weather, it must have something to do with expansion and > contraction, but we cannot pinpoint the problem. Of course, the day we go > to try to duplicate the issue, there were no sounds at all that we could > detect up on the roof after waiting hours in observation. > > We did have one row of 13 panels mounted in portrait that was on the > longer side, so we decided to split the rail by putting a gap in the > middle. That, apparently, has not solved the issue. > > We have checked the torque on every single fastener in the system. This > installation is no different than many many others we have done using the > same materials on the same roof type. > > Has anybody experienced similar issues, and how did you go about > addressing them? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Mar 5 09:04:28 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2025 09:04:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 and Bolt Car Charger Message-ID: Hi All, I've got an acquaintance with a somewhat kludged together off grid system within his grid tied house. (We do not need to get into the random design decisions that went into that...) It is an EG4 3kw 120v off grid inverter, with one of the EG4 server rack batteries. The system runs most things just fine. We plugged a 12A heat gun into an outlet run by the inverter and it did just fine. He has a Bolt, and the EV charger complains when it is plugged in. The red light on the charger indicates that "System is not properly grounded" but gives no other info than that. When plugged into a house outlet the charger works fine. It even works pluged into an outlet run by the EG4 inverter when the inverter has grid power present. But when grid power is removed from the inverter, then the charger complains about the grounding. I've tested the outlet and am getting 120V L-N, and getting about 2 Ohms from Neutral to ground. The inverter has a ground terminal for the AC input ground. For the output ground, there is just a lug on the inverter Chassis which runs to the backup loads panel. I've tried connecting the ground bar in the backup loads panel to the GEC directly when the inverter is in off grid mode, and removed the wires from the AC input. But still no change. If the house grounding was not good enough, then I would expect the charger to never work. But when only connected to the EG4 inverter, and also connected to the same grounding system, the charger does not work. Has anyone seem anything like this, or have any ideas? Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 5 11:47:50 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2025 11:47:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Popping Sounds From Roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They report that it is definitely coming from the roof and from opposite ends of the array. It's pretty random, but only earlier in the day and later in the day, which suggests the array and roof are heating and cooling. I don't believe it is electrical. But it is interesting that you mention siding. Just before we installed solar panels, they had their house re-sided with hardy board siding. I suggested that maybe it was coming from the siding on the gable ends, but of course, they insisted that it only started when the solar panels were installed. I did find a piece of siding that was pressed up tight against a drip edge, and I found that to be a possible source. Without being there on the roof as it happens, it's hard to diagnose. They are reporting 1-2 dozen pops a day that they can hear clearly. I don't doubt that, but I question whether it is directly related to the solar panel installation. For more context, they also reported something that sounded like banging in high winds, like a solar panel was loose. All of the panels were later found to be completely secure. I found a piece of aluminum soffit cover that was loose and could have been flopping around, but again, it's hard to tell when you are not there. They are wrapping themselves all around the axle, probably thinking that we did something wrong. They even called S-5 behind our backs to see if the manufacturer could throw us under the bus. That turned out to be a fun discussion because S-5 suggested the them that adding more seam clamps might help. Of course, SolarFoot is not a seam clamp at all, which further confused the owner. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Mar 5, 2025 at 8:51 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > You mentioning popping sounds reminds me of two separate systems that I > was called in to service recently where the homeowner was reporting popping > sounds. These were coming from the ground, not the roof, so it may not > apply. Both systems were roughly 10 years old, and the original installer > used PVC conduit off the roof. Water had been getting into the conduit and > running down to the combiner (Enphase system). Things were quite corroded > in the combiner panels and the sounds were coming from a failing breaker. > It sounds like your system is newer, but maybe there is a bad breaker? In > one case the customer was certain the noise was coming from the meter, but > upon inspection I am nearly certain it was the combiner instead. These were > more of an "electronic" popping noise though. If your popping noise is more > structural have the customer listen out to see if it happens right when the > sun comes out from a cloud, or goes behind a cloud. With vinyl siding or > metal roofs, I'll sometimes hear the expansion and contraction but it has > to be a very quick change in temperature and I only hear it on those quick > transitions from sun to clouds. > > Good luck tracking it down! > Cheers, > Dave > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2025 at 8:12 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I had a person contact me years ago who said her solar installer put a >> system up that caused popping noises everyday on her roof. It was a shingle >> roof, older home, and ultimately we chalked it up to expansion and >> contraction. Everything was secure and there were no indications of >> structural, cosmetic, or waterproof integrity being jeopardized. >> >> That was my only experience with this issue until we did a recent >> installation on a 5V exposed fastener metal roof using S-5 SolarFoot mounts >> attached through the metal into the plywood decking only. This new client >> is reporting numerous loud popping sounds every day. Based on the time of >> day and weather, it must have something to do with expansion and >> contraction, but we cannot pinpoint the problem. Of course, the day we go >> to try to duplicate the issue, there were no sounds at all that we could >> detect up on the roof after waiting hours in observation. >> >> We did have one row of 13 panels mounted in portrait that was on the >> longer side, so we decided to split the rail by putting a gap in the >> middle. That, apparently, has not solved the issue. >> >> We have checked the torque on every single fastener in the system. This >> installation is no different than many many others we have done using the >> same materials on the same roof type. >> >> Has anybody experienced similar issues, and how did you go about >> addressing them? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 12:05:04 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2025 09:05:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Popping Sounds From Roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Screw down metal roofs are notorious for expansion/contraction issues...especially over long horizontal spans. It's possible that the array is actually fixing that section in place better than the rest of the roof(while simultaneously keeping that part of the roof cooler) . I would investigate the roof area adjacent to the array as it's likely to be heating up much faster than the area shaded by the array. Could be the sound of screws popping.. Best of luck! Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Wed, Mar 5, 2025, 8:48 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > They report that it is definitely coming from the roof and from opposite > ends of the array. It's pretty random, but only earlier in the day and > later in the day, which suggests the array and roof are heating and > cooling. I don't believe it is electrical. > > But it is interesting that you mention siding. Just before we installed > solar panels, they had their house re-sided with hardy board siding. I > suggested that maybe it was coming from the siding on the gable ends, but > of course, they insisted that it only started when the solar panels were > installed. I did find a piece of siding that was pressed up tight against a > drip edge, and I found that to be a possible source. Without being there on > the roof as it happens, it's hard to diagnose. They are reporting 1-2 dozen > pops a day that they can hear clearly. I don't doubt that, but I question > whether it is directly related to the solar panel installation. > > For more context, they also reported something that sounded like banging > in high winds, like a solar panel was loose. All of the panels were later > found to be completely secure. I found a piece of aluminum soffit cover > that was loose and could have been flopping around, but again, it's hard to > tell when you are not there. > > They are wrapping themselves all around the axle, probably thinking that > we did something wrong. They even called S-5 behind our backs to see if the > manufacturer could throw us under the bus. That turned out to be a fun > discussion because S-5 suggested the them that adding more seam > clamps might help. Of course, SolarFoot is not a seam clamp at all, which > further confused the owner. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2025 at 8:51 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, >> You mentioning popping sounds reminds me of two separate systems that I >> was called in to service recently where the homeowner was reporting popping >> sounds. These were coming from the ground, not the roof, so it may not >> apply. Both systems were roughly 10 years old, and the original installer >> used PVC conduit off the roof. Water had been getting into the conduit and >> running down to the combiner (Enphase system). Things were quite corroded >> in the combiner panels and the sounds were coming from a failing breaker. >> It sounds like your system is newer, but maybe there is a bad breaker? In >> one case the customer was certain the noise was coming from the meter, but >> upon inspection I am nearly certain it was the combiner instead. These were >> more of an "electronic" popping noise though. If your popping noise is more >> structural have the customer listen out to see if it happens right when the >> sun comes out from a cloud, or goes behind a cloud. With vinyl siding or >> metal roofs, I'll sometimes hear the expansion and contraction but it has >> to be a very quick change in temperature and I only hear it on those quick >> transitions from sun to clouds. >> >> Good luck tracking it down! >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Wed, Mar 5, 2025 at 8:12 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I had a person contact me years ago who said her solar installer put a >>> system up that caused popping noises everyday on her roof. It was a shingle >>> roof, older home, and ultimately we chalked it up to expansion and >>> contraction. Everything was secure and there were no indications of >>> structural, cosmetic, or waterproof integrity being jeopardized. >>> >>> That was my only experience with this issue until we did a recent >>> installation on a 5V exposed fastener metal roof using S-5 SolarFoot mounts >>> attached through the metal into the plywood decking only. This new client >>> is reporting numerous loud popping sounds every day. Based on the time of >>> day and weather, it must have something to do with expansion and >>> contraction, but we cannot pinpoint the problem. Of course, the day we go >>> to try to duplicate the issue, there were no sounds at all that we could >>> detect up on the roof after waiting hours in observation. >>> >>> We did have one row of 13 panels mounted in portrait that was on the >>> longer side, so we decided to split the rail by putting a gap in the >>> middle. That, apparently, has not solved the issue. >>> >>> We have checked the torque on every single fastener in the system. This >>> installation is no different than many many others we have done using the >>> same materials on the same roof type. >>> >>> Has anybody experienced similar issues, and how did you go about >>> addressing them? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Wed Mar 5 13:05:23 2025 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2025 18:05:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Popping Sounds From Roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I also received this type of complaint years ago after installing lag bolts into wood rafters during very hot weather for a few days. I assume if you hit rafters you are more likely to hear it than missing rafters and going through decking only. David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems 917-848-0215 718-389-1545 dbuckner at solaresystems.com www.solaresystems.com 41 Box Street 2nd Floor, Brooklyn, NY 11222 The information contained in this email message, including any attached files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2025 12:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Tyrone Houck Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Popping Sounds From Roof CAUTION: External Email. Screw down metal roofs are notorious for expansion/contraction issues...especially over long horizontal spans. It's possible that the array is actually fixing that section in place better than the rest of the roof(while simultaneously keeping that part of the roof cooler) . I would investigate the roof area adjacent to the array as it's likely to be heating up much faster than the area shaded by the array. Could be the sound of screws popping.. Best of luck! Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Wed, Mar 5, 2025, 8:48 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: They report that it is definitely coming from the roof and from opposite ends of the array. It's pretty random, but only earlier in the day and later in the day, which suggests the array and roof are heating and cooling. I don't believe it is electrical. But it is interesting that you mention siding. Just before we installed solar panels, they had their house re-sided with hardy board siding. I suggested that maybe it was coming from the siding on the gable ends, but of course, they insisted that it only started when the solar panels were installed. I did find a piece of siding that was pressed up tight against a drip edge, and I found that to be a possible source. Without being there on the roof as it happens, it's hard to diagnose. They are reporting 1-2 dozen pops a day that they can hear clearly. I don't doubt that, but I question whether it is directly related to the solar panel installation. For more context, they also reported something that sounded like banging in high winds, like a solar panel was loose. All of the panels were later found to be completely secure. I found a piece of aluminum soffit cover that was loose and could have been flopping around, but again, it's hard to tell when you are not there. They are wrapping themselves all around the axle, probably thinking that we did something wrong. They even called S-5 behind our backs to see if the manufacturer could throw us under the bus. That turned out to be a fun discussion because S-5 suggested the them that adding more seam clamps might help. Of course, SolarFoot is not a seam clamp at all, which further confused the owner. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Mar 5, 2025 at 8:51 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Jason, You mentioning popping sounds reminds me of two separate systems that I was called in to service recently where the homeowner was reporting popping sounds. These were coming from the ground, not the roof, so it may not apply. Both systems were roughly 10 years old, and the original installer used PVC conduit off the roof. Water had been getting into the conduit and running down to the combiner (Enphase system). Things were quite corroded in the combiner panels and the sounds were coming from a failing breaker. It sounds like your system is newer, but maybe there is a bad breaker? In one case the customer was certain the noise was coming from the meter, but upon inspection I am nearly certain it was the combiner instead. These were more of an "electronic" popping noise though. If your popping noise is more structural have the customer listen out to see if it happens right when the sun comes out from a cloud, or goes behind a cloud. With vinyl siding or metal roofs, I'll sometimes hear the expansion and contraction but it has to be a very quick change in temperature and I only hear it on those quick transitions from sun to clouds. Good luck tracking it down! Cheers, Dave On Wed, Mar 5, 2025 at 8:12 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: I had a person contact me years ago who said her solar installer put a system up that caused popping noises everyday on her roof. It was a shingle roof, older home, and ultimately we chalked it up to expansion and contraction. Everything was secure and there were no indications of structural, cosmetic, or waterproof integrity being jeopardized. That was my only experience with this issue until we did a recent installation on a 5V exposed fastener metal roof using S-5 SolarFoot mounts attached through the metal into the plywood decking only. This new client is reporting numerous loud popping sounds every day. Based on the time of day and weather, it must have something to do with expansion and contraction, but we cannot pinpoint the problem. Of course, the day we go to try to duplicate the issue, there were no sounds at all that we could detect up on the roof after waiting hours in observation. We did have one row of 13 panels mounted in portrait that was on the longer side, so we decided to split the rail by putting a gap in the middle. That, apparently, has not solved the issue. We have checked the torque on every single fastener in the system. This installation is no different than many many others we have done using the same materials on the same roof type. Has anybody experienced similar issues, and how did you go about addressing them? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image333520.png Type: image/png Size: 40037 bytes Desc: image333520.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image662935.png Type: image/png Size: 402 bytes Desc: image662935.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image635768.png Type: image/png Size: 596 bytes Desc: image635768.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image090075.png Type: image/png Size: 499 bytes Desc: image090075.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image025436.png Type: image/png Size: 804 bytes Desc: image025436.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image776248.png Type: image/png Size: 608 bytes Desc: image776248.png URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Mar 5 16:11:04 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2025 16:11:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Popping Sounds From Roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have heard this too, no solar involved. Chris On 3/5/2025 12:05 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Screw down metal roofs are notorious for expansion/contraction > issues...especially over long horizontal spans. It's possible that the > array is actually fixing that section in place better than the rest of > the roof(while simultaneously keeping that part of the roof cooler) . > I would investigate the roof area adjacent to the array as it's likely > to be heating up much faster than the area shaded by the array. Could > be the sound of screws popping.. > > Best of luck! > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2025, 8:48 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > They report that it is definitely coming from the roof and from > opposite ends of the array. It's pretty random, but only earlier > in the day and later in the day, which suggests the array and roof > are heating and cooling. I don't believe it is electrical. > > But it is interesting that you mention siding. Just before we > installed solar panels, they had their house re-sided with hardy > board siding. I suggested that maybe it was coming from the siding > on the gable ends, but of course, they insisted that it only > started when the solar panels were installed. I did find a piece > of siding that was pressed up tight against a drip edge, and I > found that to be a possible source. Without being there on the > roof as it happens, it's hard to diagnose. They are reporting 1-2 > dozen pops a day that they can hear clearly. I don't doubt that, > but I question whether it is directly related to the solar panel > installation. > > For more context, they also reported something that sounded like > banging in high winds, like a solar panel was loose. All of the > panels were later found to be completely secure. I found a piece > of aluminum soffit cover that was loose and could have been > flopping around, but again, it's hard to tell when you are not there. > > They are wrapping themselves all around the axle, probably > thinking that we did something wrong. They even called S-5 behind > our backs to see if the manufacturer could throw us under the bus. > That turned out to be a fun discussion because S-5 suggested > the them that adding more seam clamps might help. Of course, > SolarFoot is not a seam clamp at all, which further confused the > owner. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2025 at 8:51 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Jason, > You mentioning popping sounds reminds me of two separate > systems that I was called in to service recently where the > homeowner was reporting popping sounds. These were coming from > the ground, not the roof, so it may not apply. Both systems > were roughly 10 years old, and the original installer used PVC > conduit off the roof. Water had been getting into the conduit > and running down to the combiner (Enphase system). Things were > quite corroded in the combiner panels and the sounds were > coming from a failing breaker. It sounds like your system is > newer, but maybe there is a bad breaker? In one case the > customer was certain the noise was coming from the meter, but > upon inspection I am nearly certain it was the combiner > instead. These were more of an "electronic" popping noise > though. If your popping noise is more structural have the > customer listen out to see if it happens right when the sun > comes out from a cloud, or goes behind a cloud. With vinyl > siding or metal roofs, I'll sometimes hear the expansion and > contraction but it has to be a very quick change in > temperature and I only hear it on those quick transitions from > sun to clouds. > > Good luck tracking it down! > Cheers, > Dave > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2025 at 8:12 AM Jason Szumlanski via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > I had a person contact me years ago who said her solar > installer put a system up that caused popping noises > everyday on her roof. It was a shingle roof, older home, > and ultimately we chalked it up to expansion and > contraction. Everything was secure and there were no > indications of structural, cosmetic, or waterproof > integrity being jeopardized. > > That was my only experience with this issue until we did a > recent installation on a 5V exposed fastener metal roof > using S-5 SolarFoot mounts attached through the metal into > the plywood decking only. This new client is reporting > numerous loud popping sounds every day. Based on the time > of day and weather, it must have something to do with > expansion and contraction, but we cannot pinpoint the > problem. Of course, the day we go to try to duplicate the > issue, there were no sounds at all that we could detect up > on the roof after waiting hours in observation. > > We did have one row of 13 panels mounted in portrait that > was on the longer side, so we decided to split the rail by > putting a gap in the middle. That, apparently, has not > solved the issue. > > We have checked the torque on every single fastener in the > system. This installation is no different than many many > others we have done using the same materials on the same > roof type. > > Has anybody experienced similar issues, and how did you go > about addressing them? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Wed Mar 5 17:25:11 2025 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2025 14:25:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Farco Panels??? References: <2F72D206-1C1D-44EE-97C5-6C51C534B9FD.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2F72D206-1C1D-44EE-97C5-6C51C534B9FD@yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 14:16:07 2025 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2025 14:16:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards Message-ID: Wrenchers We have a 100 kW roof mount system where we are going to need to use snow guards in the array. We are in the northeast (ground snow loads of 40 psf at the site). Pitch is about 4:12. I was looking at the Snow Dog by Alpine SnowGuards . The one thing that struck me is the wording*:* *"there may be times and conditions where snow accumulates to depths greater than 6”. If this happens, it is the responsibility of the building owner to clear the excess accumulation. This will ensure structural integrity of the solar array racking system and the building structure." * Getting 6" is common here (or at least it used to be), and in no reality will the building owner clear snow off their array after a storm. I'm wondering what you all do for snow guards. My engineer would make sure the building structure could handle the additional loads caused by slowing the shedding of the snow, but should I be concerned about the integrity of the racking and also of the frames of the solar panels? Is there another product worth looking into? Thanks for any thoughts. Adam Adam Katzman (he/him) Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Thu Mar 6 14:48:21 2025 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2025 12:48:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We've been installing Alpine Snowguards with great regularity for the past few years. We operated under the incorrect assumption that they were rated for 150psf snow loads based on materials of theirs that indicated that at weights higher than 150 an engineer should be consulted. We were also unfortunately unaware that 6" depths should be cleared until quite recently. We are experiencing a winter of above-average accumulation and we've had multiple failures (minor, but failures nonetheless) at the lower edge of arrays with the Alpine product installed. The "snow dogs" which get placed throughout the array are bomber but the bottom edge is somewhat weak and can break easily. As a company we are currently discussing how we tactfully reach out to clients that have this product installed regarding the 6" rule and whether we should proactively remove the product knowing full well that in certain areas of our installation territory we can see accumulations easily 10 times that. As for alternate products we have not come across anything that claims much higher capabilities than this. We have not seen failures on the solar module frames and fortunately only on the guard itself (so far). But it's still only March and there's likely a lot more snow to come so that remains to be seen. Cheers, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] Sam Haraldson Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Mar 6 14:55:13 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2025 12:55:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7b6eae53-6de8-4f96-9e47-7169d9f35122@solarray.com> We designed a system for a location at almost 12000 ft that gets huge snow loads.  We just added a third rail under the modules (roof mount 4:12), and its held up well for over 10 years of torture.  No snow guards either.  It does however, not clear in the winter, and is not used until May. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/6/2025 12:48 PM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches wrote: > We've been installing Alpine Snowguards with great regularity for the > past few years.  We operated under the incorrect assumption that they > were rated for 150psf snow loads based on materials of theirs that > indicated that at weights higher than 150 an engineer should be > consulted.  We were also unfortunately unaware that 6" depths should > be cleared until quite recently.  We are experiencing a winter of > above-average accumulation and we've had multiple failures (minor, but > failures nonetheless) at the lower edge of arrays with the Alpine > product installed.  The "snow dogs" which get placed throughout the > array are bomber but the bottom edge is somewhat weak and can break > easily. > > As a company we are currently discussing how we tactfully reach out to > clients that have this product installed regarding the 6" rule and > whether we should proactively remove the product knowing full well > that in certain areas of our installation territory we can see > accumulations easily 10 times that.  As for alternate products we have > not come across anything that claims much higher capabilities than this. > > We have not seen failures on the solar module frames and fortunately > only on the guard itself (so far).  But it's still only March and > there's likely a lot more snow to come so that remains to be seen. > > Cheers, > Sam > > > OnSite Energy > Sam Haraldson > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > B Corporation > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 19:19:22 2025 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2025 19:19:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Popping Sounds From Roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, I know the sound you are describing well and can confirm that it is likely related to expansion/contraction of the metal roof panels. Down here in Jamaica, we have an exposed-fastener corrugated metal roof. Whenever the roof has been sitting in shade for some time (or if it has been overcast) and then a sudden burst of sunshine hits it, a distinct popping sound can be heard. The effect is usually pretty immediate—and, since we do not have an attic or any ceiling insulation, it is also quite noticeable. Over the years, though, we have become very accustomed to it, and it now blends into the background. I've never understood what it is exactly that we are hearing, but it is definitely related to the expanding metal. I installed a couple modules on the roof last summer—see attached photo. I haven't noticed that the frequency of the sound has either increased or decreased since then. As Tyrone suggested, in your customer's case, it might be that the area surrounding the array is heating up quicker than the area underneath it - and perhaps that is causing some differential expansion of the roof panels (that causes them to 'pop'). Corey Shalanski Portland, Jamaica On Wed, Mar 5, 2025 at 4:11 PM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > I have heard this too, no solar involved. Chris > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Corrugated Metal Roof.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 768055 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Mar 7 11:16:57 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2025 08:16:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Popping Sounds From Roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63d6a28397df7e6311e761ea94593cdc@sti.net> > I would investigate the roof ! The only thing that should be on an > offgrid dwelling is snow, rain, or bird doo! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-03-05 1:11 pm, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > I have heard this too, no solar involved. Chris > > On 3/5/2025 12:05 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Screw down metal roofs are notorious for expansion/contraction > issues...especially over long horizontal spans. It's possible that the > array is actually fixing that section in place better than the rest of > the roof(while simultaneously keeping that part of the roof cooler) . I > would investigate the roof area adjacent to the array as it's likely to > be heating up much faster than the area shaded by the array. Could be > the sound of screws popping.. > > Best of luck! > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2025, 8:48 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > They report that it is definitely coming from the roof and from > opposite ends of the array. It's pretty random, but only earlier in the > day and later in the day, which suggests the array and roof are heating > and cooling. I don't believe it is electrical. > > But it is interesting that you mention siding. Just before we installed > solar panels, they had their house re-sided with hardy board siding. I > suggested that maybe it was coming from the siding on the gable ends, > but of course, they insisted that it only started when the solar panels > were installed. I did find a piece of siding that was pressed up tight > against a drip edge, and I found that to be a possible source. Without > being there on the roof as it happens, it's hard to diagnose. They are > reporting 1-2 dozen pops a day that they can hear clearly. I don't > doubt that, but I question whether it is directly related to the solar > panel installation. > > For more context, they also reported something that sounded like > banging in high winds, like a solar panel was loose. All of the panels > were later found to be completely secure. I found a piece of aluminum > soffit cover that was loose and could have been flopping around, but > again, it's hard to tell when you are not there. > > They are wrapping themselves all around the axle, probably thinking > that we did something wrong. They even called S-5 behind our backs to > see if the manufacturer could throw us under the bus. That turned out > to be a fun discussion because S-5 suggested the them that adding more > seam clamps might help. Of course, SolarFoot is not a seam clamp at > all, which further confused the owner. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2025 at 8:51 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Jason, > You mentioning popping sounds reminds me of two separate systems that I > was called in to service recently where the homeowner was reporting > popping sounds. These were coming from the ground, not the roof, so it > may not apply. Both systems were roughly 10 years old, and the original > installer used PVC conduit off the roof. Water had been getting into > the conduit and running down to the combiner (Enphase system). Things > were quite corroded in the combiner panels and the sounds were coming > from a failing breaker. It sounds like your system is newer, but maybe > there is a bad breaker? In one case the customer was certain the noise > was coming from the meter, but upon inspection I am nearly certain it > was the combiner instead. These were more of an "electronic" popping > noise though. If your popping noise is more structural have the > customer listen out to see if it happens right when the sun comes out > from a cloud, or goes behind a cloud. With vinyl siding or metal roofs, > I'll sometimes hear the expansion and contraction but it has to be a > very quick change in temperature and I only hear it on those quick > transitions from sun to clouds. > > Good luck tracking it down! > Cheers, > Dave > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2025 at 8:12 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I had a person contact me years ago who said her solar installer put a > system up that caused popping noises everyday on her roof. It was a > shingle roof, older home, and ultimately we chalked it up to expansion > and contraction. Everything was secure and there were no indications of > structural, cosmetic, or waterproof integrity being jeopardized. > > That was my only experience with this issue until we did a recent > installation on a 5V exposed fastener metal roof using S-5 SolarFoot > mounts attached through the metal into the plywood decking only. This > new client is reporting numerous loud popping sounds every day. Based > on the time of day and weather, it must have something to do with > expansion and contraction, but we cannot pinpoint the problem. Of > course, the day we go to try to duplicate the issue, there were no > sounds at all that we could detect up on the roof after waiting hours > in observation. > > We did have one row of 13 panels mounted in portrait that was on the > longer side, so we decided to split the rail by putting a gap in the > middle. That, apparently, has not solved the issue. > > We have checked the torque on every single fastener in the system. This > installation is no different than many many others we have done using > the same materials on the same roof type. > > Has anybody experienced similar issues, and how did you go about > addressing them? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Mar 7 11:58:54 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2025 16:58:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Popping Sounds From Roof In-Reply-To: <63d6a28397df7e6311e761ea94593cdc@sti.net> References: <63d6a28397df7e6311e761ea94593cdc@sti.net> Message-ID: <444C9554-355D-4845-BC4A-26BE3C34B970@solarwork.com> I have a standing seam Corten roof (no exterior screws) of many lengths, longest is 49’. When the roof transitions from shaded to sunny the roof “talks” , same when the roof goes from full sun to shaded esp in winter (cold ) there is more sound. It’s not loud & we have 6-8” of spray foam so the sound is minor it just let’s us know the sky has clouds & sun. Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 On Mar 7, 2025, at 9:17 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote:  I would investigate the roof ! The only thing that should be on an offgrid dwelling is snow, rain, or bird doo! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-03-05 1:11 pm, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: I have heard this too, no solar involved. Chris On 3/5/2025 12:05 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: Screw down metal roofs are notorious for expansion/contraction issues...especially over long horizontal spans. It's possible that the array is actually fixing that section in place better than the rest of the roof(while simultaneously keeping that part of the roof cooler) . I would investigate the roof area adjacent to the array as it's likely to be heating up much faster than the area shaded by the array. Could be the sound of screws popping.. Best of luck! Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Wed, Mar 5, 2025, 8:48 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: They report that it is definitely coming from the roof and from opposite ends of the array. It's pretty random, but only earlier in the day and later in the day, which suggests the array and roof are heating and cooling. I don't believe it is electrical. But it is interesting that you mention siding. Just before we installed solar panels, they had their house re-sided with hardy board siding. I suggested that maybe it was coming from the siding on the gable ends, but of course, they insisted that it only started when the solar panels were installed. I did find a piece of siding that was pressed up tight against a drip edge, and I found that to be a possible source. Without being there on the roof as it happens, it's hard to diagnose. They are reporting 1-2 dozen pops a day that they can hear clearly. I don't doubt that, but I question whether it is directly related to the solar panel installation. For more context, they also reported something that sounded like banging in high winds, like a solar panel was loose. All of the panels were later found to be completely secure. I found a piece of aluminum soffit cover that was loose and could have been flopping around, but again, it's hard to tell when you are not there. They are wrapping themselves all around the axle, probably thinking that we did something wrong. They even called S-5 behind our backs to see if the manufacturer could throw us under the bus. That turned out to be a fun discussion because S-5 suggested the them that adding more seam clamps might help. Of course, SolarFoot is not a seam clamp at all, which further confused the owner. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Mar 5, 2025 at 8:51 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Jason, You mentioning popping sounds reminds me of two separate systems that I was called in to service recently where the homeowner was reporting popping sounds. These were coming from the ground, not the roof, so it may not apply. Both systems were roughly 10 years old, and the original installer used PVC conduit off the roof. Water had been getting into the conduit and running down to the combiner (Enphase system). Things were quite corroded in the combiner panels and the sounds were coming from a failing breaker. It sounds like your system is newer, but maybe there is a bad breaker? In one case the customer was certain the noise was coming from the meter, but upon inspection I am nearly certain it was the combiner instead. These were more of an "electronic" popping noise though. If your popping noise is more structural have the customer listen out to see if it happens right when the sun comes out from a cloud, or goes behind a cloud. With vinyl siding or metal roofs, I'll sometimes hear the expansion and contraction but it has to be a very quick change in temperature and I only hear it on those quick transitions from sun to clouds. Good luck tracking it down! Cheers, Dave On Wed, Mar 5, 2025 at 8:12 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: I had a person contact me years ago who said her solar installer put a system up that caused popping noises everyday on her roof. It was a shingle roof, older home, and ultimately we chalked it up to expansion and contraction. Everything was secure and there were no indications of structural, cosmetic, or waterproof integrity being jeopardized. That was my only experience with this issue until we did a recent installation on a 5V exposed fastener metal roof using S-5 SolarFoot mounts attached through the metal into the plywood decking only. This new client is reporting numerous loud popping sounds every day. Based on the time of day and weather, it must have something to do with expansion and contraction, but we cannot pinpoint the problem. Of course, the day we go to try to duplicate the issue, there were no sounds at all that we could detect up on the roof after waiting hours in observation. We did have one row of 13 panels mounted in portrait that was on the longer side, so we decided to split the rail by putting a gap in the middle. That, apparently, has not solved the issue. We have checked the torque on every single fastener in the system. This installation is no different than many many others we have done using the same materials on the same roof type. Has anybody experienced similar issues, and how did you go about addressing them? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 23:16:18 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2025 23:16:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Arc Fault problem in FM100 Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I just fired up a new off grid solar array with the FM100 arc fault version. RIght off I got the arc fault/ground fault red light. It was the end of day with 145 V from the array but no current. Question is, if I want to disable the function, will simply not passing wires through the current transducer effectively defeat the fault. or does the circuit board have to be pulled as well. I have a new FM100 that I bought on Ebay that I just hooked up to my home system. It is dark so I won't know until tomorrow if it is good but at least no red light and I simply did not pass wires through the ring. If it works tomorrow, is this a reasonable way to leave it wired up. Solar array in both cases are pole mounts. I pulled the arc fault circuit board on the customer's system but still a fault light. John Blittersdorf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 23:24:49 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2025 20:24:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Arc Fault problem in FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John, Wrenches, Did you install and wire the FM100, Here is what l have found, wires not stripped back far enough and the fasteners screwed down hit the insulation and the wire will arc on the terminal causing an arc fault and shutting down the CC Fun times On Fri, Mar 7, 2025, 8:17 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > I just fired up a new off grid solar array with the FM100 arc fault > version. RIght off I got the > arc fault/ground fault red light. It was the end of day with 145 V from > the array but no current. Question is, if I want to disable the function, > will simply not passing wires through the current transducer effectively > defeat the fault. or does the circuit board have to be pulled as well. I > have a new FM100 that I bought on Ebay that I just hooked up to my home > system. It is dark so I won't know until tomorrow if it is good but at > least no red light and I simply did not pass wires through the ring. If it > works tomorrow, is this a reasonable way to leave it wired up. Solar array > in both cases are pole mounts. I pulled the arc fault circuit board on the > customer's system but still a fault light. > > John Blittersdorf > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Mar 8 10:55:59 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2025 10:55:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 40 Degree tilt array Message-ID: <40031685d1d9aa1d07afb5801a52f7fb@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, Does anyone make 40 degree tilt up racking anymore. Unirac used to, and we have a 40 degree tilt Unirac system on our roof that works fine. Unirac told me that the L-foot and rail attachments to the tilt legs are different now, and they can't go over 30 degrees. Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 11:26:47 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2025 09:26:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 40 Degree tilt array In-Reply-To: <40031685d1d9aa1d07afb5801a52f7fb@redwoodalliance.org> References: <40031685d1d9aa1d07afb5801a52f7fb@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <530C422C-556D-49A0-9C89-1E3625790E34@gmail.com> Hi drake Solarrackworks is one. Jay > On Mar 8, 2025, at 8:56 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone make 40 degree tilt up racking anymore. Unirac used to, and we have a 40 degree tilt Unirac system on our roof that works fine. > > Unirac told me that the L-foot and rail attachments to the tilt legs are different now, and they can't go over 30 degrees. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Mar 8 11:32:01 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2025 16:32:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Arc Fault problem in FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pull the ground jumper in the FM100. Double check all terminal connections in the Power center related to the FM100. Do the pull test carefully, I once missed tightening a neutral that was passing current & then not. I finally heard a slight crackle sound as I turned the array input & battery breaker at the same time to on, did the pull test [moved wires & the Fm100 lite up], then Felt like an idiot! Tightened the neutral & all good. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Arc Fault problem in FM100 Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2025 04:16:18 +0000 Size: 11798 URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Mar 8 11:34:23 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2025 16:34:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 40 Degree tilt array In-Reply-To: <40031685d1d9aa1d07afb5801a52f7fb@redwoodalliance.org> References: <40031685d1d9aa1d07afb5801a52f7fb@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: MTSolar _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 40 Degree tilt array Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2025 15:55:59 +0000 Size: 13180 URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 13:23:22 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2025 11:23:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 40 Degree tilt array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 13:34:28 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2025 10:34:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 40 Degree tilt array In-Reply-To: <40031685d1d9aa1d07afb5801a52f7fb@redwoodalliance.org> References: <40031685d1d9aa1d07afb5801a52f7fb@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <2828D5F2-8FCA-4865-A9D2-433FFF2A9F54@gmail.com> We use standard iron Ridge roof top racking and we buy 1 in square aluminum tubing and cut and drill and make our own tilt legs. Works great and you can customize the tilt angle. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Mar 8, 2025, at 7:56 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone make 40 degree tilt up racking anymore. Unirac used to, and we have a 40 degree tilt Unirac system on our roof that works fine. > > Unirac told me that the L-foot and rail attachments to the tilt legs are different now, and they can't go over 30 degrees. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Mar 8 16:01:14 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2025 21:01:14 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 40 Degree tilt array In-Reply-To: <40031685d1d9aa1d07afb5801a52f7fb@redwoodalliance.org> References: <40031685d1d9aa1d07afb5801a52f7fb@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: One thing I have done with solar hot water racks to spread out the weight per connection point to the roof and to give the upper and lower connections a stable point to connect to instead of just the roofis to do a uni-strut type frame that is parallel with the roof and then attach the actual tilt rack to this parallel frame on the roof. It uses a bit more framing, but it also makes it super stable for Snow and snow retention or keeping snow from pushing up behind the panels I have used both steel unit strut, and the aluminum unit strut that Sun Earth sells Dana Orzel C: 208.721.7003 E- dana at solarwork.com On Mar 8, 2025, at 8:56 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote:  Hello Wrenches, Does anyone make 40 degree tilt up racking anymore. Unirac used to, and we have a 40 degree tilt Unirac system on our roof that works fine. Unirac told me that the L-foot and rail attachments to the tilt legs are different now, and they can't go over 30 degrees. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Sat Mar 8 21:31:33 2025 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2025 18:31:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 40 Degree tilt array In-Reply-To: <40031685d1d9aa1d07afb5801a52f7fb@redwoodalliance.org> References: <40031685d1d9aa1d07afb5801a52f7fb@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <1741487507497.0ede55b62736bc4f@re-wrenches.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Mar 10 05:13:51 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2025 05:13:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 40 Degree tilt array In-Reply-To: <1741487507497.0ede55b62736bc4f@re-wrenches.org> References: <40031685d1d9aa1d07afb5801a52f7fb@redwoodalliance.org> <1741487507497.0ede55b62736bc4f@re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: This list rocks! Thank you all for your help! _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-03-08 21:31, Michael Welch via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hey gang. Don't forget David Katz' Tamarack. 20 - 60 degree tilt angle. > https://tamaracksolar.com/products/adjustable-ground-roof-mount/ > > Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote at 07:55 AM 3/8/2025: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Does anyone make 40 degree tilt up racking anymore. Unirac used to, >> and we have a 40 degree tilt Unirac system on our roof that works >> fine. >> >> Unirac told me that the L-foot and rail attachments to the tilt legs >> are different now, and they can't go over 30 degrees. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> Athens Electric LLC >> >> Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 >> >> _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Tue Mar 11 14:20:38 2025 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2025 07:20:38 +1300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking DC breaker to fit ancient AEE/ Gudgel enclosure for Trace PVGFP Message-ID: Hello, Mechanics~ I sold this early GFI for PV arrays to a homeowner decades ago. Page 2-5 of the attachment mentions a custom enclosure from AEE Solar; AEE part number 53.0090 and breaker mounting plate 53-0094. I'm sure that's probably what I bought for mounting the GFP assembly. The breaker plate is pre punched to fit the mounting tabs on back of these CF style breakers. This may also be known as an E-series breaker. I suspect this box was a joint project involving Dave Katz & Robin Gudgel. Now I need to add a suitable single pole DC breaker but all I have found so far are those with terminal studs that poke out out the back of the breaker. Two different eBay vendors had a photo that looked right but the product they shipped had the studs. I'm sure the breaker is non-custom but I haven't found an easy source for quantity one. I think the breaker body is 1" wide. Ideal specs would be 100 amp rated, and any voltage rating above 50. 80 amp rating would probably also work. It's for a 24v battery off grid setup. If anyone has a part they could sell to me, please reply off-list with a description of the age & condition, & requested prepayment including slow boat shipping to the SLC region, Utah. OR: if anyone could suggest a vendor who's likely to have this, all suggestions would be welcomed. Thanks in advance; the Wrench List is the Bomb~ Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PVGFP manual downloaded 2025.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 999050 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Mar 11 14:30:29 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2025 13:30:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking DC breaker to fit ancient AEE/ Gudgel enclosure for Trace PVGFP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <911306C0-A7EA-4930-8E06-D2142536052F@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 865-dcbrk-80.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5503 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Mar 11 14:40:55 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2025 11:40:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking DC breaker to fit ancient AEE/ Gudgel enclosure for Trace PVGFP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mick: I have four of them each at 60 amps. If you think one will work I will send it to you. Give me a shipping address. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Mar 11, 2025 at 11:21 AM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello, Mechanics~ > > I sold this early GFI for PV arrays to a homeowner decades ago. Page 2-5 > of the attachment mentions a custom enclosure from AEE Solar; AEE part > number 53.0090 and breaker mounting plate 53-0094. > I'm sure that's probably what I bought for mounting the GFP assembly. The > breaker plate is pre punched to fit the mounting tabs on back of these CF > style breakers. This may also be known as an E-series breaker. > > I suspect this box was a joint project involving Dave Katz & Robin Gudgel. > Now I need to add a suitable single pole DC breaker but all I have found so > far are those with terminal studs that poke out out the back of the > breaker. Two different eBay vendors had a photo that looked right but the > product they shipped had the studs. I'm sure the breaker is non-custom but > I haven't found an easy source for quantity one. > > I think the breaker body is 1" wide. Ideal specs would be 100 amp rated, > and any voltage rating above 50. 80 amp rating would probably also work. > It's for a 24v battery off grid setup. If anyone has a part they could sell > to me, please reply off-list with a description of the age & condition, & > requested prepayment including slow boat shipping to the SLC region, Utah. > > OR: if anyone could suggest a vendor who's likely to have this, all > suggestions would be welcomed. Thanks in advance; the Wrench List is the > Bomb~ > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_4667.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1841090 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 15:06:48 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2025 13:06:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 1 failure mode Message-ID: <904EC4AE-C2E2-4ABD-B760-4AC967F8CAA7@gmail.com> Hi all I’m wondering if anyone has seen a mate 1 fail with the screen illuminated but no visible letters/numbers. And the buttons worked. From memory he could start the generator. I never have. I replaced it with one from Zonna. Thx Jay From william at millersolar.com Tue Mar 11 16:18:04 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2025 13:18:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 1 failure mode In-Reply-To: <904EC4AE-C2E2-4ABD-B760-4AC967F8CAA7@gmail.com> References: <904EC4AE-C2E2-4ABD-B760-4AC967F8CAA7@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have one factoid that may or may not help: Orange -white/white-orange provide power. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Mar 11, 2025 at 12:07 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all > > I’m wondering if anyone has seen a mate 1 fail with the screen illuminated > but no visible letters/numbers. And the buttons worked. From memory he > could start the generator. > > I never have. I replaced it with one from Zonna. > > Thx > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 16:20:39 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2025 13:20:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking DC breaker to fit ancient AEE/ Gudgel enclosure for Trace PVGFP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Those part numbers indicate an item from between 2003 and 2008 from AEE. I don't remember what they are though, and do not see those items codes in any old AEE catalogs. Besides Schneider, Magnum also sold similar breakers in 70A and 100A I think. You could probably source them from a breaker distributor but at much higher cost. Brad Bassett On Tue, Mar 11, 2025 at 11:21 AM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello, Mechanics~ > > I sold this early GFI for PV arrays to a homeowner decades ago. Page 2-5 > of the attachment mentions a custom enclosure from AEE Solar; AEE part > number 53.0090 and breaker mounting plate 53-0094. > I'm sure that's probably what I bought for mounting the GFP assembly. The > breaker plate is pre punched to fit the mounting tabs on back of these CF > style breakers. This may also be known as an E-series breaker. > > I suspect this box was a joint project involving Dave Katz & Robin Gudgel. > Now I need to add a suitable single pole DC breaker but all I have found so > far are those with terminal studs that poke out out the back of the > breaker. Two different eBay vendors had a photo that looked right but the > product they shipped had the studs. I'm sure the breaker is non-custom but > I haven't found an easy source for quantity one. > > I think the breaker body is 1" wide. Ideal specs would be 100 amp rated, > and any voltage rating above 50. 80 amp rating would probably also work. > It's for a 24v battery off grid setup. If anyone has a part they could sell > to me, please reply off-list with a description of the age & condition, & > requested prepayment including slow boat shipping to the SLC region, Utah. > > OR: if anyone could suggest a vendor who's likely to have this, all > suggestions would be welcomed. Thanks in advance; the Wrench List is the > Bomb~ > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 11 16:47:54 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2025 14:47:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking DC breaker to fit ancient AEE/ Gudgel enclosure for Trace PVGFP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mick; I have a 100 A model with the mechanical lugs, low profile, made for surface mount, like you're looking for.   I've seen them referred to as a medium body Heinneman breaker.   This is surface mount vs panel mount which has the studs off the back. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/11/2025 2:20 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: > Those part numbers indicate an item from between 2003 and 2008 from > AEE. I don't remember what they are though, and do not see those items > codes in any old AEE catalogs. Besides Schneider, Magnum also sold > similar breakers in 70A and 100A I think. You could probably source > them from a breaker distributor but at much higher cost. > > Brad Bassett > > On Tue, Mar 11, 2025 at 11:21 AM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hello, Mechanics~ > > I sold this early GFI for PV arrays to a homeowner decades ago. > Page 2-5 of the attachment mentions a custom enclosure from AEE > Solar; AEE part number 53.0090 and breaker mounting plate 53-0094. > I'm sure that's probably what I bought for mounting the GFP > assembly. The breaker plate is pre punched to fit the mounting > tabs on back of these CF style breakers. This may also be known as > an E-series breaker. > > I suspect this box was a joint project involving Dave Katz & Robin > Gudgel. Now I need to add a suitable single pole DC breaker but > all I have found so far are those with terminal studs that poke > out out the back of the breaker. Two different eBay vendors had a > photo that looked right but the product they shipped had the > studs. I'm sure the breaker is non-custom but I haven't found an > easy source for quantity one. > > I think the breaker body is 1" wide. Ideal specs would be 100 amp > rated, and any voltage rating above 50. 80 amp rating would > probably also work. It's for a 24v battery off grid setup. If > anyone has a part they could sell to me, please reply off-list > with a description of the age & condition, & requested prepayment > including slow boat shipping to the SLC region, Utah. > > OR: if anyone could suggest a vendor who's likely to have this, > all suggestions would be welcomed. Thanks in advance; the Wrench > List is the Bomb~ > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Mar 11 16:51:51 2025 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2025 14:51:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking DC breaker to fit ancient AEE/ Gudgel enclosure for Trace PVGFP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These were Heinemann CF breakers, and 100A was a standard size, although only 60A was used in the PVGFP. The ones with studs were CDs. Back in the day the dealer source was Rainshadow Solar of (I think) Orcas Island, Washington. I don't have a source for them now. Allan Retired On 3/11/2025 1:20 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: > Those part numbers indicate an item from between 2003 and 2008 from > AEE. I don't remember what they are though, and do not see those items > codes in any old AEE catalogs. Besides Schneider, Magnum also sold > similar breakers in 70A and 100A I think. You could probably source > them from a breaker distributor but at much higher cost. > > Brad Bassett > > On Tue, Mar 11, 2025 at 11:21 AM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hello, Mechanics~ > > I sold this early GFI for PV arrays to a homeowner decades ago. > Page 2-5 of the attachment mentions a custom enclosure from AEE > Solar; AEE part number 53.0090 and breaker mounting plate 53-0094. > I'm sure that's probably what I bought for mounting the GFP > assembly. The breaker plate is pre punched to fit the mounting > tabs on back of these CF style breakers. This may also be known as > an E-series breaker. > > I suspect this box was a joint project involving Dave Katz & Robin > Gudgel. Now I need to add a suitable single pole DC breaker but > all I have found so far are those with terminal studs that poke > out out the back of the breaker. Two different eBay vendors had a > photo that looked right but the product they shipped had the > studs. I'm sure the breaker is non-custom but I haven't found an > easy source for quantity one. > > I think the breaker body is 1" wide. Ideal specs would be 100 amp > rated, and any voltage rating above 50. 80 amp rating would > probably also work. It's for a 24v battery off grid setup. If > anyone has a part they could sell to me, please reply off-list > with a description of the age & condition, & requested prepayment > including slow boat shipping to the SLC region, Utah. > > OR: if anyone could suggest a vendor who's likely to have this, > all suggestions would be welcomed. Thanks in advance; the Wrench > List is the Bomb~ > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Mar 12 16:56:12 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2025 20:56:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking DC breaker to fit ancient AEE/ Gudgel enclosure for Trace PVGFP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My iPhone popped up with Northern Arizona solar electric known as NAZ as having one Dana Orzel C: 208.721.7003 E- dana at solarwork.com On Mar 11, 2025, at 2:48 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:  Hi Mick; I have a 100 A model with the mechanical lugs, low profile, made for surface mount, like you're looking for. I've seen them referred to as a medium body Heinneman breaker. This is surface mount vs panel mount which has the studs off the back. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/11/2025 2:20 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: Those part numbers indicate an item from between 2003 and 2008 from AEE. I don't remember what they are though, and do not see those items codes in any old AEE catalogs. Besides Schneider, Magnum also sold similar breakers in 70A and 100A I think. You could probably source them from a breaker distributor but at much higher cost. Brad Bassett On Tue, Mar 11, 2025 at 11:21 AM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hello, Mechanics~ I sold this early GFI for PV arrays to a homeowner decades ago. Page 2-5 of the attachment mentions a custom enclosure from AEE Solar; AEE part number 53.0090 and breaker mounting plate 53-0094. I'm sure that's probably what I bought for mounting the GFP assembly. The breaker plate is pre punched to fit the mounting tabs on back of these CF style breakers. This may also be known as an E-series breaker. I suspect this box was a joint project involving Dave Katz & Robin Gudgel. Now I need to add a suitable single pole DC breaker but all I have found so far are those with terminal studs that poke out out the back of the breaker. Two different eBay vendors had a photo that looked right but the product they shipped had the studs. I'm sure the breaker is non-custom but I haven't found an easy source for quantity one. I think the breaker body is 1" wide. Ideal specs would be 100 amp rated, and any voltage rating above 50. 80 amp rating would probably also work. It's for a 24v battery off grid setup. If anyone has a part they could sell to me, please reply off-list with a description of the age & condition, & requested prepayment including slow boat shipping to the SLC region, Utah. OR: if anyone could suggest a vendor who's likely to have this, all suggestions would be welcomed. Thanks in advance; the Wrench List is the Bomb~ Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 [https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=abWlja0BhYnJhaGFtc29sYXIuY29t&type=zerocontent&guid=c582a7bb-d6d1-40c3-a242-c011c062f19d]ᐧ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 22:11:18 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2025 22:11:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Arc Fault problem in FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dana, I'm the one feeling like an idiot. Turns out the ground fault fuse was blown in a brand new controller. I did't have my meter with me to test the fuse and had to go back the next day. I had a good fuse in the 2nd controller not yet hooked up so I could have borrowed that one and had the system up and running. Only cost me 4 hours of drive time by not having my meter. John Blittersdorf On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 11:32 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Pull the ground jumper in the FM100. > > Double check all terminal connections in the Power center related to the > FM100. Do the pull test carefully, > > I once missed tightening a neutral that was passing current & then not. I > finally heard a slight crackle sound as I turned the array input & battery > breaker at the same time to on, did the pull test [moved wires & the Fm100 > lite up], then Felt like an idiot! Tightened the neutral & all good. > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Thu Mar 13 03:08:24 2025 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 20:08:24 +1300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Subject: Re: FYI: Optics RE Message-ID: Hi, Wrenchies~ Todd Cory & others had cautioned the List about expected 2025 down time on Outback Optics-RE, commencing around 3/3/2025 & likely to resolve within five days. If any of the List folks are still blacked out from their web data, kindly reply on-list. I have one site that's not coming back after doing more than one "power cycle" on the Mate 3S so far. For those Wrenches who have all their outages cleared, no need to tell us that on the list. I'll just assume "no reply" means no continuing problems for you with Optics-Re as of 3/14/2025. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Mar 13 06:42:42 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel at entech-engineering.com) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 06:42:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Net Metering Expert? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09923c97d98c0bba0dc9996f3576cba0@entech-engineering.com> If you want to avoid my rant, just go to the bolded, italicized, underline question below. Thank you, Chris We are in a situation with our island cooperative, where we have a former Vermont Electric Coop person as our president. He has been for 8 years I believe. In my opinion based upon his conduct and filings, he is a enormous control freak, and has instituted a two meter policy for buying ALL solar generation at Avoided Cost and charging the site at Tariff. No electricity from solar is used in the home accounting wise. We used to have traditional net metering. Now, interconnection costs are very high, dangerous, and a waste of money. The effect is that only wealthy people are installing systems. The returns based upon this metering setup has increased the payback by a factor of more than 2. No attempt at showing ways to make this more reasonable have worked. He actually told me he didn't need my help, and then 6 months later declared it was I was a for profit company and he could not take advice from a for profit company. Hence my negative opinion of this person as that is totally ridiculous. Ok, now to the question. He publically claimed in a monthly meeting that he was a Net Metering Expert. I started laughing as being in thie type of work for 40 years, I have never heard of such a thing. He has no engineering degree, no certifications, he just landed in a job where the Board majority has even less experience. So, he usually gets his way. _Have any of you ever heard of a Net Metering certification?_ How ironic that the Net Metering expert has instituted Avoided Cost Metering. Thanks for any feedback. We are now recording and streaming the meetings, so we are exposing this situation to the public. Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Mar 13 09:30:53 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 13:30:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Arc Fault problem in FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16C79A7E-9526-48A9-854B-7FEE5ABCF8B2@solarwork.com> It’s the same fuse as in a Flluke 87 😎 Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 On Mar 12, 2025, at 8:13 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote:  Dana, I'm the one feeling like an idiot. Turns out the ground fault fuse was blown in a brand new controller. I did't have my meter with me to test the fuse and had to go back the next day. I had a good fuse in the 2nd controller not yet hooked up so I could have borrowed that one and had the system up and running. Only cost me 4 hours of drive time by not having my meter. John Blittersdorf On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 11:32 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: Pull the ground jumper in the FM100. Double check all terminal connections in the Power center related to the FM100. Do the pull test carefully, I once missed tightening a neutral that was passing current & then not. I finally heard a slight crackle sound as I turned the array input & battery breaker at the same time to on, did the pull test [moved wires & the Fm100 lite up], then Felt like an idiot! Tightened the neutral & all good. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 10:37:21 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 08:37:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mini splits Message-ID: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> HI All, I have been getting a lot of questions about people wanting to install mini splits in their off grid homes, and in normal homes. The line of questions usually involves DIY vs contractor. Of course the price difference is staggering, roughly 5X more for contractor. And I’m being asked all sorts of questions about the DIY versions. Is there a good place for information so I can educate myself as to the different brands etc Or maybe someone can contact me off list if they have some info to share. Thanks’ jay From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 11:05:17 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 08:05:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mini splits In-Reply-To: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm interested in this too On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 7:39 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All, > > I have been getting a lot of questions about people wanting to install > mini splits in their off grid homes, and in normal homes. > > The line of questions usually involves DIY vs contractor. Of course the > price difference is staggering, roughly 5X more for contractor. And I’m > being asked all sorts of questions about the DIY versions. > > Is there a good place for information so I can educate myself as to the > different brands etc > Or maybe someone can contact me off list if they have some info to share. > > Thanks’ > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Mar 13 11:10:47 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 08:10:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Arc Fault problem in FM100 In-Reply-To: <16C79A7E-9526-48A9-854B-7FEE5ABCF8B2@solarwork.com> References: <16C79A7E-9526-48A9-854B-7FEE5ABCF8B2@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <74f8e1eb7e144aac93e3b28785a3792c@mail.gmail.com> Dana: With all due respect, the Flexmax 100 GFDI fuse is not that same as either of the Fluke 87 fuses. · Per the Flemax 100 AFCI manual June 2022, Revision C, page 20, the fuse is “600 Vdc, 0.75 Adc, OutBack Power P/N SPARE-045”. If you look closely at the photograph the fuse shown is 1 amp. My recollection is the fuse is 1 amp. · Per Fluke the fuses are 11A @ 1000V and 440 mA @ 1000V. The photo of the 11 amp fuse shows a Bussman DMM-11AR. The photo of the 440 mA shows a Little Fuse Fast-acting 44/100A Unfortunately neither manufacturer gives the full specs for the fuses, at least not that I can readily find. The fuse activation timing (fast or delay) is an important factor. I am sure somewhere on the web are cross-reference numbers to major fuse manufacturers. Above I cite what is seen in photographs but not specifically named in any specification table. All of these fuses are expensive. This is why if someone uses my 87 and leaves the red lead plugged into either amp port they owe me a beer, and if a fuse is blown, a replacement. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Thursday, March 13, 2025 6:31 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Dana Orzel *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Arc Fault problem in FM100 It’s the same fuse as in a Flluke 87 😎 Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 On Mar 12, 2025, at 8:13 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Dana, I'm the one feeling like an idiot. Turns out the ground fault fuse was blown in a brand new controller. I did't have my meter with me to test the fuse and had to go back the next day. I had a good fuse in the 2nd controller not yet hooked up so I could have borrowed that one and had the system up and running. Only cost me 4 hours of drive time by not having my meter. John Blittersdorf On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 11:32 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Pull the ground jumper in the FM100. Double check all terminal connections in the Power center related to the FM100. Do the pull test carefully, I once missed tightening a neutral that was passing current & then not. I finally heard a slight crackle sound as I turned the array input & battery breaker at the same time to on, did the pull test [moved wires & the Fm100 lite up], then Felt like an idiot! Tightened the neutral & all good. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Mar 13 11:31:42 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 08:31:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mini splits In-Reply-To: References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: I was a beta tester for Sanyo offgrid mini splits in 2008. Been using splits ever since. Costco sells DIY along with HVAC in Florida. Also EG4 has DIY. The best from Fugitsu and the like are 30 + SEER and need a pro to pull a vacuumed. I no longer do the installs unless it is in Hawaii or a really nice place to travel😉 The DIY models (special connectors) are very good but you do need a bit of skill. On all of the splits, the multi station are not near the energy efficiency as the single 12,000 to 18000 Btu models. Multi station is a huge mistake offgrid. The offgrid mentality can be applied to grid homes. Just have an area that you cool / heat and you can survive a major outage for weeks plus ! If you live in the Southwest you can do this without a generator. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-03-13 8:05 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I'm interested in this too > > On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 7:39 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I have been getting a lot of questions about people wanting to install >> mini splits in their off grid homes, and in normal homes. >> >> The line of questions usually involves DIY vs contractor. Of course >> the price difference is staggering, roughly 5X more for contractor. >> And I'm being asked all sorts of questions about the DIY versions. >> >> Is there a good place for information so I can educate myself as to >> the different brands etc >> Or maybe someone can contact me off list if they have some info to >> share. >> >> Thanks' >> >> jay >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Mar 13 11:56:23 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 15:56:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mini splits In-Reply-To: References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have been working with Arctic https://www.arcticheatpumps.com/ for a couple of years on slab only radiant heat & cooling. Back up depending on climate is one issue: grid tied is not a problem electric works fine. The first house I did they installed 200 amp service before I was involved & had to upgrade to 400 Amp service. Lesson one - Have you plan together before you start to build. Double check that your electric service can handle the 40A for 1 heat pump & 100A for the back up tank heaters. You can see where the 400A service comes in quickly. Off grid LPG boiler as a backup or oversize the heat pumps. I recommend a back up source of heat - If something can fail & it can freeze at some point in time, it will. That Said it's a lot of standard plumbing & a 100% fill with 40% concentration fill with glycol. I am not sure that I would recommend it as a DIY system though I think that they do present it as such. I have not done a mini split but have assisted family out of state pick thru various proposals to install at their home. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 15:31:42 +0000 Size: 23511 URL: From pureenergysolar at hotmail.com Thu Mar 13 13:02:35 2025 From: pureenergysolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 17:02:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mini splits In-Reply-To: References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Jay, I live off grid (25yrs) in North Fla. (temp range is teens - 100+ F) with mini-splits throughout the house (2,700sq'). I have used just about every brand. We primarily use them for cooling but also use heat to supplement the wood stove. I can't imagine living without them. Although it's a love/hate relationship. My experience is that you get about 10 years max from whatever brand you buy. Typically, the inside unit corrodes from condensation and leaks out, or the outside unit reversing valve locks up in cold or heat position. IMO They are not worth repairing. We currently have 4 - 1 Ton units and 1 - 2 ton. I only buy 1 to1 systems vs 1 -4 as it offers redundancy. I initially tried "reputable" brands which typically cost more but have since migrated to whatever is the cheapest. That said I like Gree and/or the knock off brand that they make (good for the price and holding up well). When I am in need of more than one, I always buy an extra to swap out whichever unit dies first. Fortunately for me, years ago, I had a buddy show me how to install them. Pretty simple. They come pre-charged and can typically handle up to 30' of line with no issues. If possible, find someone to show you once. YouTube will offer many WRONG ways to do it videos. I don't use the vacuum on the lines. I just keep the lines plugged and dry until I hook them up. My 15kW array with 2 - VFX3648R's has had no issue powering any of them. I hope this info helps. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 11:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Michael Morningstar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits I'm interested in this too On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 7:39 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: HI All, I have been getting a lot of questions about people wanting to install mini splits in their off grid homes, and in normal homes. The line of questions usually involves DIY vs contractor. Of course the price difference is staggering, roughly 5X more for contractor. And I’m being asked all sorts of questions about the DIY versions. Is there a good place for information so I can educate myself as to the different brands etc Or maybe someone can contact me off list if they have some info to share. Thanks’ jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Thu Mar 13 16:09:19 2025 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 20:09:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mini splits In-Reply-To: References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wayne, I saw your post regarding the use of ductless mini splits. I too use them extensively, and have an unblemished track record using them. I must say that your failures may be in part due to the fact that you do not evacuate the system during the installation process. For what it is worth the proper procedure is to precharge the system with nitrogen to about 200PSI. Then check for leaks and verify the system will hold pressure. Then pull a vacuum on the system for maybe 15 or 20 minutes before releasing the refrigerant. If you skip these steps you are vulnerbale to diminished performance caused by any air left in the circuit, any moisture will react with the refrigerant and turn acidic eventually leading to corrosion. I see you keep the lines closed as much as possible but non the less I think will find your system longevity will increase, and potentially the performance will be better.       You are getting about ten years so not to bad but I have some healthy systems that are 20 years old still going strong. Pieter ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 12:02 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Wayne Irwin Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits Hey Jay, I live off grid (25yrs) in North Fla. (temp range is teens - 100+ F) with mini-splits throughout the house (2,700sq'). I have used just about every brand. We primarily use them for cooling but also use heat to supplement the wood stove. I can't imagine living without them. Although it's a love/hate relationship. My experience is that you get about 10 years max from whatever brand you buy. Typically, the inside unit corrodes from condensation and leaks out, or the outside unit reversing valve locks up in cold or heat position. IMO They are not worth repairing. We currently have 4 - 1 Ton units and 1 - 2 ton. I only buy 1 to1 systems vs 1 -4 as it offers redundancy. I initially tried "reputable" brands which typically cost more but have since migrated to whatever is the cheapest. That said I like Gree and/or the knock off brand that they make (good for the price and holding up well). When I am in need of more than one, I always buy an extra to swap out whichever unit dies first. Fortunately for me, years ago, I had a buddy show me how to install them. Pretty simple. They come pre-charged and can typically handle up to 30' of line with no issues. If possible, find someone to show you once. YouTube will offer many WRONG ways to do it videos. I don't use the vacuum on the lines. I just keep the lines plugged and dry until I hook them up. My 15kW array with 2 - VFX3648R's has had no issue powering any of them. I hope this info helps. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 11:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Michael Morningstar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits I'm interested in this too On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 7:39 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: HI All, I have been getting a lot of questions about people wanting to install mini splits in their off grid homes, and in normal homes. The line of questions usually involves DIY vs contractor. Of course the price difference is staggering, roughly 5X more for contractor. And I’m being asked all sorts of questions about the DIY versions. Is there a good place for information so I can educate myself as to the different brands etc Or maybe someone can contact me off list if they have some info to share. Thanks’ jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pureenergysolar at hotmail.com Thu Mar 13 16:40:08 2025 From: pureenergysolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 20:40:08 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mini splits In-Reply-To: References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Pieter, I should have said that I "No Longer" vacuum them as the extra step that I previously applied made no difference in my experience. We are also in FL. with extremely high humidity which might be the difference. Most of the AC contractors here confirm the same experience. That said, they do work well with solar applications. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: pieter offgridenterprises.org Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 4:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Wayne Irwin Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits Wayne, I saw your post regarding the use of ductless mini splits. I too use them extensively, and have an unblemished track record using them. I must say that your failures may be in part due to the fact that you do not evacuate the system during the installation process. For what it is worth the proper procedure is to precharge the system with nitrogen to about 200PSI. Then check for leaks and verify the system will hold pressure. Then pull a vacuum on the system for maybe 15 or 20 minutes before releasing the refrigerant. If you skip these steps you are vulnerbale to diminished performance caused by any air left in the circuit, any moisture will react with the refrigerant and turn acidic eventually leading to corrosion. I see you keep the lines closed as much as possible but non the less I think will find your system longevity will increase, and potentially the performance will be better.       You are getting about ten years so not to bad but I have some healthy systems that are 20 years old still going strong. Pieter ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 12:02 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Wayne Irwin Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits Hey Jay, I live off grid (25yrs) in North Fla. (temp range is teens - 100+ F) with mini-splits throughout the house (2,700sq'). I have used just about every brand. We primarily use them for cooling but also use heat to supplement the wood stove. I can't imagine living without them. Although it's a love/hate relationship. My experience is that you get about 10 years max from whatever brand you buy. Typically, the inside unit corrodes from condensation and leaks out, or the outside unit reversing valve locks up in cold or heat position. IMO They are not worth repairing. We currently have 4 - 1 Ton units and 1 - 2 ton. I only buy 1 to1 systems vs 1 -4 as it offers redundancy. I initially tried "reputable" brands which typically cost more but have since migrated to whatever is the cheapest. That said I like Gree and/or the knock off brand that they make (good for the price and holding up well). When I am in need of more than one, I always buy an extra to swap out whichever unit dies first. Fortunately for me, years ago, I had a buddy show me how to install them. Pretty simple. They come pre-charged and can typically handle up to 30' of line with no issues. If possible, find someone to show you once. YouTube will offer many WRONG ways to do it videos. I don't use the vacuum on the lines. I just keep the lines plugged and dry until I hook them up. My 15kW array with 2 - VFX3648R's has had no issue powering any of them. I hope this info helps. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 11:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Michael Morningstar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits I'm interested in this too On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 7:39 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: HI All, I have been getting a lot of questions about people wanting to install mini splits in their off grid homes, and in normal homes. The line of questions usually involves DIY vs contractor. Of course the price difference is staggering, roughly 5X more for contractor. And I’m being asked all sorts of questions about the DIY versions. Is there a good place for information so I can educate myself as to the different brands etc Or maybe someone can contact me off list if they have some info to share. Thanks’ jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Mar 13 16:58:34 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 16:58:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mini splits In-Reply-To: References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Most off-grid homes here in Southwest Florida, one of the most challenging air conditioning places in the country due to heat and humidity, have moved to mini-splits. I have a client's system with quad Sol-Ark 15K that is running eight separate mini-splits and a 4-ton central air unit at a sprawling residential complex. There are no issues to report. These were all installed by a reputable local HVAC contractor, so they are not likely DIY brands. I am not certain about the tonnage, but I believe each mini-split is 1.5 tons. These are in a highly corrosive/salt environment. I can't imagine they will last more than a few years each. But from what I hear, clients on the islands are treating them as disposable in a way. It's still much cheaper than replacing central air units every few years. I have another client's system with a single Sol-Ark 15K and it has two 2-ton mini-splits that are DIY by the homeowner. They barely dent the batteries each day. I see them using as little as 400W to maintain temp in high ambient heat. Most other clients have single mini-splits. I concur with one of the earlier comments to stay away from multi-zone if possible. I don't think there are considerable cost savings anyway, and I have not been able to detect any energy savings going that route. There is a guy I did some work for who is running a few old school window shakers on a Sol-Ark 12K and he has constant problems with surges and performance of the units. He is in line for a mini-split soon, and plans to DIY. Personally, I have a 2-ton DIY cooling my uninsulated garage at home (on grid) when I need to use it for short periods in the summer. It works like a champ, and it was dead easy to install. The hardest part was getting the line set out through the block wall. I think I paid $1,200 for it, including the trim kit to hide the line set and a wall bracket for the compressor unit. I think the bottom line for me is super low startup surge and then fairly consistent power draw once desired temperature is reached. I feel this is much easier to plan for off-grid rather than repeated start/stop cycles. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 4:41 PM Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Pieter, > > I should have said that I "No Longer" vacuum them as the extra step that I > previously applied made no difference in my experience. We are also in FL. > with extremely high humidity which might be the difference. Most of the AC > contractors here confirm the same experience. > > That said, they do work well with solar applications. > > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* pieter offgridenterprises.org > *Sent:* Thursday, March 13, 2025 4:09 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Wayne Irwin > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits > > Wayne, I saw your post regarding the use of ductless mini splits. I too > use them extensively, and have an unblemished track record using them. I > must say that your failures may be in part due to the fact that you do not > evacuate the system during the installation process. For what it is worth > the proper procedure is to precharge the system with nitrogen to about > 200PSI. Then check for leaks and verify the system will hold pressure. Then > pull a vacuum on the system for maybe 15 or 20 minutes before releasing the > refrigerant. If you skip these steps you are vulnerbale to diminished > performance caused by any air left in the circuit, any moisture will react > with the refrigerant and turn acidic eventually leading to corrosion. I see > you keep the lines closed as much as possible but non the less I think will > find your system longevity will increase, and potentially the performance > will be better. > You are getting about ten years so not to bad but I have some healthy > systems that are 20 years old still going strong. > Pieter > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, March 13, 2025 12:02 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Wayne Irwin > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits > > Hey Jay, > > I live off grid (25yrs) in North Fla. (temp range is teens - 100+ F) with > mini-splits throughout the house (2,700sq'). > I have used just about every brand. We primarily use them for cooling but > also use heat to supplement the wood stove. > I can't imagine living without them. Although it's a love/hate > relationship. > My experience is that you get about 10 years max from whatever brand you > buy. Typically, the inside unit corrodes from condensation and leaks out, > or the outside unit reversing valve locks up in cold or heat position. IMO > They are not worth repairing. We currently have 4 - 1 Ton units and 1 - 2 > ton. I only buy 1 to1 systems vs 1 -4 as it offers redundancy. I initially > tried "reputable" brands which typically cost more but have since migrated > to whatever is the cheapest. > That said I like Gree and/or the knock off brand that they make (good for > the price and holding up well). When I am in need of more than one, I > always buy an extra to swap out whichever unit dies first. > Fortunately for me, years ago, I had a buddy show me how to install them. > Pretty simple. They come pre-charged and can typically handle up to 30' of > line with no issues. If possible, find someone to show you once. YouTube > will offer many WRONG ways to do it videos. > I don't use the vacuum on the lines. I just keep the lines plugged and dry > until I hook them up. > > My 15kW array with 2 - VFX3648R's has had no issue powering any of them. > > I hope this info helps. > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > 352 316-1637 Cell > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, March 13, 2025 11:05 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Michael Morningstar > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits > > I'm interested in this too > > On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 7:39 AM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > HI All, > > I have been getting a lot of questions about people wanting to install > mini splits in their off grid homes, and in normal homes. > > The line of questions usually involves DIY vs contractor. Of course the > price difference is staggering, roughly 5X more for contractor. And I’m > being asked all sorts of questions about the DIY versions. > > Is there a good place for information so I can educate myself as to the > different brands etc > Or maybe someone can contact me off list if they have some info to share. > > Thanks’ > > jay > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Mar 13 18:03:23 2025 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 17:03:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mini splits In-Reply-To: References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi All, Since we are on the topic, does anyone have a good method for predicting the kwh consumption of a mini-split? Thanks, Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 3:58 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Most off-grid homes here in Southwest Florida, one of the most challenging > air conditioning places in the country due to heat and humidity, have moved > to mini-splits. I have a client's system with quad Sol-Ark 15K that is > running eight separate mini-splits and a 4-ton central air unit at a > sprawling residential complex. There are no issues to report. These were > all installed by a reputable local HVAC contractor, so they are not likely > DIY brands. I am not certain about the tonnage, but I believe each > mini-split is 1.5 tons. These are in a highly corrosive/salt environment. I > can't imagine they will last more than a few years each. But from what I > hear, clients on the islands are treating them as disposable in a way. It's > still much cheaper than replacing central air units every few years. > > I have another client's system with a single Sol-Ark 15K and it has two > 2-ton mini-splits that are DIY by the homeowner. They barely dent the > batteries each day. I see them using as little as 400W to maintain temp in > high ambient heat. Most other clients have single mini-splits. I concur > with one of the earlier comments to stay away from multi-zone if possible. > I don't think there are considerable cost savings anyway, and I have not > been able to detect any energy savings going that route. > > There is a guy I did some work for who is running a few old school window > shakers on a Sol-Ark 12K and he has constant problems with surges and > performance of the units. He is in line for a mini-split soon, and plans to > DIY. > > Personally, I have a 2-ton DIY cooling my uninsulated garage at home (on > grid) when I need to use it for short periods in the summer. It works like > a champ, and it was dead easy to install. The hardest part was getting the > line set out through the block wall. I think I paid $1,200 for it, > including the trim kit to hide the line set and a wall bracket for the > compressor unit. > > I think the bottom line for me is super low startup surge and then fairly > consistent power draw once desired temperature is reached. I feel this is > much easier to plan for off-grid rather than repeated start/stop cycles. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 4:41 PM Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Pieter, >> >> I should have said that I "No Longer" vacuum them as the extra step that >> I previously applied made no difference in my experience. We are also in >> FL. with extremely high humidity which might be the difference. Most of the >> AC contractors here confirm the same experience. >> >> That said, they do work well with solar applications. >> >> >> Wayne Irwin >> President >> License #CVC56695 >> State Licensed Solar Contractor >> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >> Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com >> PureEnergySolar.com >> SolarChargingStation.com >> 352 377-6527 Office >> 352 336-3299 Fax >> >> >> The Sun Is Always Shining! >> >> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are >> not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use >> or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail >> and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* pieter offgridenterprises.org >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 13, 2025 4:09 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Wayne Irwin >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits >> >> Wayne, I saw your post regarding the use of ductless mini splits. I too >> use them extensively, and have an unblemished track record using them. I >> must say that your failures may be in part due to the fact that you do not >> evacuate the system during the installation process. For what it is worth >> the proper procedure is to precharge the system with nitrogen to about >> 200PSI. Then check for leaks and verify the system will hold pressure. Then >> pull a vacuum on the system for maybe 15 or 20 minutes before releasing the >> refrigerant. If you skip these steps you are vulnerbale to diminished >> performance caused by any air left in the circuit, any moisture will react >> with the refrigerant and turn acidic eventually leading to corrosion. I see >> you keep the lines closed as much as possible but non the less I think will >> find your system longevity will increase, and potentially the performance >> will be better. >> You are getting about ten years so not to bad but I have some healthy >> systems that are 20 years old still going strong. >> Pieter >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 13, 2025 12:02 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Wayne Irwin >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits >> >> Hey Jay, >> >> I live off grid (25yrs) in North Fla. (temp range is teens - 100+ F) with >> mini-splits throughout the house (2,700sq'). >> I have used just about every brand. We primarily use them for cooling but >> also use heat to supplement the wood stove. >> I can't imagine living without them. Although it's a love/hate >> relationship. >> My experience is that you get about 10 years max from whatever brand you >> buy. Typically, the inside unit corrodes from condensation and leaks out, >> or the outside unit reversing valve locks up in cold or heat position. IMO >> They are not worth repairing. We currently have 4 - 1 Ton units and 1 - 2 >> ton. I only buy 1 to1 systems vs 1 -4 as it offers redundancy. I initially >> tried "reputable" brands which typically cost more but have since migrated >> to whatever is the cheapest. >> That said I like Gree and/or the knock off brand that they make (good for >> the price and holding up well). When I am in need of more than one, I >> always buy an extra to swap out whichever unit dies first. >> Fortunately for me, years ago, I had a buddy show me how to install them. >> Pretty simple. They come pre-charged and can typically handle up to 30' of >> line with no issues. If possible, find someone to show you once. YouTube >> will offer many WRONG ways to do it videos. >> I don't use the vacuum on the lines. I just keep the lines plugged and >> dry until I hook them up. >> >> My 15kW array with 2 - VFX3648R's has had no issue powering any of them. >> >> I hope this info helps. >> >> Wayne Irwin >> President >> License #CVC56695 >> State Licensed Solar Contractor >> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >> Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com >> PureEnergySolar.com >> SolarChargingStation.com >> 352 377-6527 Office >> 352 336-3299 Fax >> 352 316-1637 Cell >> >> The Sun Is Always Shining! >> >> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are >> not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use >> or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail >> and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 13, 2025 11:05 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Michael Morningstar >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits >> >> I'm interested in this too >> >> On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 7:39 AM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> HI All, >> >> I have been getting a lot of questions about people wanting to install >> mini splits in their off grid homes, and in normal homes. >> >> The line of questions usually involves DIY vs contractor. Of course the >> price difference is staggering, roughly 5X more for contractor. And I’m >> being asked all sorts of questions about the DIY versions. >> >> Is there a good place for information so I can educate myself as to the >> different brands etc >> Or maybe someone can contact me off list if they have some info to >> share. >> >> Thanks’ >> >> jay >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Mar 13 18:26:21 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 15:26:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mini splits In-Reply-To: References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've installed two DIY mini splits and both work very well, one was MRCOOL and the other was Pioneer. Many of our clients and my parents have professionally installed mini splits - I'm not sure whether there are major advantages of getting the professionally installed variants other than a preference of DIY versus having a contractor do it. I have found that in our coastal California climate the cooling is particularly low cost with these heat pumps. Cooling tends to match the solar curve nicely too. Heating during winter tends to run for many hours a day and use a pretty good amount of juice, although it of course is several times less than a comparable resistive heater. Most folks I've talked with who own mini splits have mentioned the same thing, that heating during winter costs more than they were expecting. Of course our electricity rates are $0.30 to $0.60/kWh, so that doesn't help. Kris, if you Google "energy star heat pump calculator" you'll find a energstar.gov spreadsheet to help calculate heat pump usage. I've found that the default numbers are conservative but if you can find the energy specs from the product finder for a specific model, it will help a lot: https://www.energystar.gov/productfinder/product/certified-heat-pumps/ actual usage varies a lot depending on the building characteristics (insulation, heat gain, square footage, etc) and owner habits so sometimes it feels like a shot in the dark. Good topic as electrification becomes more and more common. August On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 3:04 PM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > Since we are on the topic, does anyone have a good method for predicting > the kwh consumption of a mini-split? > > Thanks, > Kris > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > > On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 3:58 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Most off-grid homes here in Southwest Florida, one of the most >> challenging air conditioning places in the country due to heat and >> humidity, have moved to mini-splits. I have a client's system with quad >> Sol-Ark 15K that is running eight separate mini-splits and a 4-ton central >> air unit at a sprawling residential complex. There are no issues to report. >> These were all installed by a reputable local HVAC contractor, so they are >> not likely DIY brands. I am not certain about the tonnage, but I believe >> each mini-split is 1.5 tons. These are in a highly corrosive/salt >> environment. I can't imagine they will last more than a few years each. But >> from what I hear, clients on the islands are treating them as disposable in >> a way. It's still much cheaper than replacing central air units every few >> years. >> >> I have another client's system with a single Sol-Ark 15K and it has two >> 2-ton mini-splits that are DIY by the homeowner. They barely dent the >> batteries each day. I see them using as little as 400W to maintain temp in >> high ambient heat. Most other clients have single mini-splits. I concur >> with one of the earlier comments to stay away from multi-zone if possible. >> I don't think there are considerable cost savings anyway, and I have not >> been able to detect any energy savings going that route. >> >> There is a guy I did some work for who is running a few old school window >> shakers on a Sol-Ark 12K and he has constant problems with surges and >> performance of the units. He is in line for a mini-split soon, and plans to >> DIY. >> >> Personally, I have a 2-ton DIY cooling my uninsulated garage at home (on >> grid) when I need to use it for short periods in the summer. It works like >> a champ, and it was dead easy to install. The hardest part was getting the >> line set out through the block wall. I think I paid $1,200 for it, >> including the trim kit to hide the line set and a wall bracket for the >> compressor unit. >> >> I think the bottom line for me is super low startup surge and then fairly >> consistent power draw once desired temperature is reached. I feel this is >> much easier to plan for off-grid rather than repeated start/stop cycles. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 4:41 PM Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Pieter, >>> >>> I should have said that I "No Longer" vacuum them as the extra step that >>> I previously applied made no difference in my experience. We are also in >>> FL. with extremely high humidity which might be the difference. Most of the >>> AC contractors here confirm the same experience. >>> >>> That said, they do work well with solar applications. >>> >>> >>> Wayne Irwin >>> President >>> License #CVC56695 >>> State Licensed Solar Contractor >>> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >>> Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com >>> PureEnergySolar.com >>> SolarChargingStation.com >>> 352 377-6527 Office >>> 352 336-3299 Fax >>> >>> >>> The Sun Is Always Shining! >>> >>> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you >>> are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any >>> use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply >>> e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* pieter offgridenterprises.org >>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 13, 2025 4:09 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Wayne Irwin >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits >>> >>> Wayne, I saw your post regarding the use of ductless mini splits. I too >>> use them extensively, and have an unblemished track record using them. I >>> must say that your failures may be in part due to the fact that you do not >>> evacuate the system during the installation process. For what it is worth >>> the proper procedure is to precharge the system with nitrogen to about >>> 200PSI. Then check for leaks and verify the system will hold pressure. Then >>> pull a vacuum on the system for maybe 15 or 20 minutes before releasing the >>> refrigerant. If you skip these steps you are vulnerbale to diminished >>> performance caused by any air left in the circuit, any moisture will react >>> with the refrigerant and turn acidic eventually leading to corrosion. I see >>> you keep the lines closed as much as possible but non the less I think will >>> find your system longevity will increase, and potentially the performance >>> will be better. >>> You are getting about ten years so not to bad but I have some healthy >>> systems that are 20 years old still going strong. >>> Pieter >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>> behalf of Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches >> > >>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 13, 2025 12:02 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Wayne Irwin >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits >>> >>> Hey Jay, >>> >>> I live off grid (25yrs) in North Fla. (temp range is teens - 100+ F) >>> with mini-splits throughout the house (2,700sq'). >>> I have used just about every brand. We primarily use them for cooling >>> but also use heat to supplement the wood stove. >>> I can't imagine living without them. Although it's a love/hate >>> relationship. >>> My experience is that you get about 10 years max from whatever brand you >>> buy. Typically, the inside unit corrodes from condensation and leaks out, >>> or the outside unit reversing valve locks up in cold or heat position. IMO >>> They are not worth repairing. We currently have 4 - 1 Ton units and 1 - 2 >>> ton. I only buy 1 to1 systems vs 1 -4 as it offers redundancy. I initially >>> tried "reputable" brands which typically cost more but have since migrated >>> to whatever is the cheapest. >>> That said I like Gree and/or the knock off brand that they make (good >>> for the price and holding up well). When I am in need of more than one, I >>> always buy an extra to swap out whichever unit dies first. >>> Fortunately for me, years ago, I had a buddy show me how to install >>> them. Pretty simple. They come pre-charged and can typically handle up to >>> 30' of line with no issues. If possible, find someone to show you once. >>> YouTube will offer many WRONG ways to do it videos. >>> I don't use the vacuum on the lines. I just keep the lines plugged and >>> dry until I hook them up. >>> >>> My 15kW array with 2 - VFX3648R's has had no issue powering any of them. >>> >>> I hope this info helps. >>> >>> Wayne Irwin >>> President >>> License #CVC56695 >>> State Licensed Solar Contractor >>> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >>> Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com >>> PureEnergySolar.com >>> SolarChargingStation.com >>> 352 377-6527 Office >>> 352 336-3299 Fax >>> 352 316-1637 Cell >>> >>> The Sun Is Always Shining! >>> >>> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you >>> are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any >>> use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply >>> e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>> behalf of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 13, 2025 11:05 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Michael Morningstar >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits >>> >>> I'm interested in this too >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 7:39 AM jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> HI All, >>> >>> I have been getting a lot of questions about people wanting to install >>> mini splits in their off grid homes, and in normal homes. >>> >>> The line of questions usually involves DIY vs contractor. Of course the >>> price difference is staggering, roughly 5X more for contractor. And I’m >>> being asked all sorts of questions about the DIY versions. >>> >>> Is there a good place for information so I can educate myself as to the >>> different brands etc >>> Or maybe someone can contact me off list if they have some info to >>> share. >>> >>> Thanks’ >>> >>> jay >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Fri Mar 14 09:54:35 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 06:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE is down again Message-ID: <1741960475.378123043@webmail.finestplanet.com> I get an "application error" at: [ https://opticsre.com/dashboard ]( https://opticsre.com/dashboard )But still can access my site through this: [ https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard ]( https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 12:06:38 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 12:06:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE is down again In-Reply-To: <1741960475.378123043@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1741960475.378123043@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Is there any word from Outback about this problem. I can’t get in at all. On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > *I get an "application error" at: https://opticsre.com/dashboard > But still can access my site through > this: https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard > * > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Fri Mar 14 12:29:37 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 09:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE is down again In-Reply-To: References: <1741960475.378123043@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <1741969777.49924822@webmail.finestplanet.com> This works for most: [ https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard ]( https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard ) Todd On Friday, March 14, 2025 9:06am, "John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches" said: Is there any word from Outback about this problem. I can’t get in at all. On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote: I get an "application error" at: [ https://opticsre.com/dashboard ]( https://opticsre.com/dashboard )But still can access my site through this: [ https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard ]( https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: [ http://re-wrenches.org ]( http://re-wrenches.org ) List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: [ https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ]( https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ) [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List rules & etiquette: [ http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 12:34:46 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 12:34:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE is down again In-Reply-To: <1741969777.49924822@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1741960475.378123043@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1741969777.49924822@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: All I get is a security alert on that address John On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 12:30 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > This works for most: > > https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard > > Todd > > > > > On Friday, March 14, 2025 9:06am, "John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: > > Is there any word from Outback about this problem. I can’t get in at all. > > On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> >> >> *I get an "application error" at: https://opticsre.com/dashboard >> But still can access my site through >> this: https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard >> * >> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 12:40:53 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 10:40:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE is down again In-Reply-To: References: <1741960475.378123043@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1741969777.49924822@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: I have to say that the utter and complete incompetence of the new “owners” of outback have sworn me off of their products. If they ever actually produce anything. I mean if you can’t even give us real information in real time like for optics let alone products why should I trust them to honor warranties?. jay > On Mar 14, 2025, at 10:34 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > > All I get is a security alert on that address > > John > > On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 12:30 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> This works for most: >> >> https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard >> >> Todd >> >> >> >> >> On Friday, March 14, 2025 9:06am, "John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches" > said: >> >> Is there any word from Outback about this problem. I can’t get in at all. >> >> On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> I get an "application error" at: https://opticsre.com/dashboard >>> >>> But still can access my site through this: https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Fri Mar 14 12:54:35 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 09:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE is down again In-Reply-To: References: <1741960475.378123043@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1741969777.49924822@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <1741971275.146914495@webmail.finestplanet.com> Yes, I had to bypass my antivirus to access it. Todd On Friday, March 14, 2025 9:34am, "John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches" said: All I get is a security alert on that address John On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 12:30 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote: This works for most: [ https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard ]( https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard ) Todd On Friday, March 14, 2025 9:06am, "John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches" <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> said: Is there any word from Outback about this problem. I can’t get in at all. On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote: I get an "application error" at: [ https://opticsre.com/dashboard ]( https://opticsre.com/dashboard )But still can access my site through this: [ https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard ]( https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: [ http://re-wrenches.org ]( http://re-wrenches.org ) List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: [ https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ]( https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ) [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List rules & etiquette: [ http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: [ http://re-wrenches.org ]( http://re-wrenches.org ) List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: [ https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ]( https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ) [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List rules & etiquette: [ http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Fri Mar 14 12:58:57 2025 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 09:58:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE is down again In-Reply-To: <1741971275.146914495@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1741960475.378123043@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1741969777.49924822@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1741971275.146914495@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Same here. I had to defeat my security to access the site. This is worrisome since some of our sites are fly-in or boat access only. In addition, all Outback products lost their CSA listing when they were bought. So we cannot install any of their products - if we could get them - under a permit. We are crossing our fingers we don't have any failures. Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager 250.703.6004 eric at vecoop.ca 888.386.0116 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 viridiansolar.ca Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider home. On Fri, 14 Mar 2025 at 09:55, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yes, I had to bypass my antivirus to access it. > > Todd > > > On Friday, March 14, 2025 9:34am, "John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: > > All I get is a security alert on that address > John > > On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 12:30 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> This works for most: >> >> https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard >> >> Todd >> >> >> >> >> On Friday, March 14, 2025 9:06am, "John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches" < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: >> >> Is there any word from Outback about this problem. I can’t get in at >> all. >> >> On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> *I get an "application error" at: https://opticsre.com/dashboard >>> But still can access my site through >>> this: https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard >>> * >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 13:09:30 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 11:09:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE is down again In-Reply-To: References: <1741960475.378123043@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1741969777.49924822@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1741971275.146914495@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <69AC91A6-FCBD-46AF-8E9A-AEF614FBAD84@gmail.com> I have been wondering about that loss of ratings after they were sold. OB has been sold a few times and I don’t remember this happening? Or Trace to Xantrex to schneider. I wonder if the new owners moved production to china from was it India or somewhere else in SE Asia? I would think that that would necessitate new certification? jay > On Mar 14, 2025, at 10:58 AM, Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Same here. I had to defeat my security to access the site. This is worrisome since some of our sites are fly-in or boat access only. > In addition, all Outback products lost their CSA listing when they were bought. So we cannot install any of their products - if we could get them - under a permit. We are crossing our fingers we don't have any failures. > > > > Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager > > 250.703.6004 > eric at vecoop.ca > 888.386.0116 > 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3 > viridiansolar.ca > > > > Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider home. > > > > On Fri, 14 Mar 2025 at 09:55, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Yes, I had to bypass my antivirus to access it. >> >> Todd >> >> >> On Friday, March 14, 2025 9:34am, "John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches" > said: >> >> All I get is a security alert on that address >> John >> >> On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 12:30 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> This works for most: >>> >>> https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard >>> >>> Todd >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Friday, March 14, 2025 9:06am, "John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches" > said: >>> >>> Is there any word from Outback about this problem. I can’t get in at all. >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> I get an "application error" at: https://opticsre.com/dashboard >>>> >>>> But still can access my site through this: https://23.99.68.42/Home/#/system/dashboard >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Mar 14 14:33:07 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 11:33:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mini splits In-Reply-To: References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think the bottom line for me is super low startup surge and then fairly consistent power draw once desired temperature is reached. I feel this is much easier to plan for off-grid rather than repeated start/stop cycles. Jason Szumlanski And extremely quiet which is a main reason to be offgrid ! 😉 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [4]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [5] [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-03-13 1:58 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Most off-grid homes here in Southwest Florida, one of the most > challenging air conditioning places in the country due to heat and > humidity, have moved to mini-splits. I have a client's system with quad > Sol-Ark 15K that is running eight separate mini-splits and a 4-ton > central air unit at a sprawling residential complex. There are no > issues to report. These were all installed by a reputable local HVAC > contractor, so they are not likely DIY brands. I am not certain about > the tonnage, but I believe each mini-split is 1.5 tons. These are in a > highly corrosive/salt environment. I can't imagine they will last more > than a few years each. But from what I hear, clients on the islands are > treating them as disposable in a way. It's still much cheaper than > replacing central air units every few years. > > I have another client's system with a single Sol-Ark 15K and it has two > 2-ton mini-splits that are DIY by the homeowner. They barely dent the > batteries each day. I see them using as little as 400W to maintain temp > in high ambient heat. Most other clients have single mini-splits. I > concur with one of the earlier comments to stay away from multi-zone if > possible. I don't think there are considerable cost savings anyway, and > I have not been able to detect any energy savings going that route. > > There is a guy I did some work for who is running a few old school > window shakers on a Sol-Ark 12K and he has constant problems with > surges and performance of the units. He is in line for a mini-split > soon, and plans to DIY. > > Personally, I have a 2-ton DIY cooling my uninsulated garage at home > (on grid) when I need to use it for short periods in the summer. It > works like a champ, and it was dead easy to install. The hardest part > was getting the line set out through the block wall. I think I paid > $1,200 for it, including the trim kit to hide the line set and a wall > bracket for the compressor unit. > > I think the bottom line for me is super low startup surge and then > fairly consistent power draw once desired temperature is reached. I > feel this is much easier to plan for off-grid rather than repeated > start/stop cycles. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 4:41 PM Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Pieter, > > I should have said that I "No Longer" vacuum them as the extra step > that I previously applied made no difference in my experience. We are > also in FL. with extremely high humidity which might be the difference. > Most of the AC contractors here confirm the same experience. > > That said, they do work well with solar applications. > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com [1] > SolarChargingStation.com [2] > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you > are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, > any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by > reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank > you. > > ------------------------- > > From: pieter offgridenterprises.org [3] > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 4:09 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Wayne Irwin > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits > > Wayne, I saw your post regarding the use of ductless mini splits. I too > use them extensively, and have an unblemished track record using them. > I must say that your failures may be in part due to the fact that you > do not evacuate the system during the installation process. For what it > is worth the proper procedure is to precharge the system with nitrogen > to about 200PSI. Then check for leaks and verify the system will hold > pressure. Then pull a vacuum on the system for maybe 15 or 20 minutes > before releasing the refrigerant. If you skip these steps you are > vulnerbale to diminished performance caused by any air left in the > circuit, any moisture will react with the refrigerant and turn acidic > eventually leading to corrosion. I see you keep the lines closed as > much as possible but non the less I think will find your system > longevity will increase, and potentially the performance will be > better. >       You are getting about ten years so not to bad but I have some > healthy systems that are 20 years old still going strong. > Pieter > > ------------------------- > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf > of Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 12:02 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Wayne Irwin > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits > > Hey Jay, > > I live off grid (25yrs) in North Fla. (temp range is teens - 100+ F) > with mini-splits throughout the house (2,700sq'). > I have used just about every brand. We primarily use them for cooling > but also use heat to supplement the wood stove. > I can't imagine living without them. Although it's a love/hate > relationship. > My experience is that you get about 10 years max from whatever brand > you buy. Typically, the inside unit corrodes from condensation and > leaks out, or the outside unit reversing valve locks up in cold or heat > position. IMO They are not worth repairing. We currently have 4 - 1 Ton > units and 1 - 2 ton. I only buy 1 to1 systems vs 1 -4 as it offers > redundancy. I initially tried "reputable" brands which typically cost > more but have since migrated to whatever is the cheapest. > That said I like Gree and/or the knock off brand that they make (good > for the price and holding up well). When I am in need of more than one, > I always buy an extra to swap out whichever unit dies first. > Fortunately for me, years ago, I had a buddy show me how to install > them. Pretty simple. They come pre-charged and can typically handle up > to 30' of line with no issues. If possible, find someone to show you > once. YouTube will offer many WRONG ways to do it videos. > I don't use the vacuum on the lines. I just keep the lines plugged and > dry until I hook them up. > > My 15kW array with 2 - VFX3648R's has had no issue powering any of > them. > > I hope this info helps. > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com [1] > SolarChargingStation.com [2] > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > 352 316-1637 Cell > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you > are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, > any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by > reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank > you. > > ------------------------- > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf > of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 11:05 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Michael Morningstar > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits > > I'm interested in this too > > On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 7:39 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: HI All, > > I have been getting a lot of questions about people wanting to install > mini splits in their off grid homes, and in normal homes. > > The line of questions usually involves DIY vs contractor. Of course > the price difference is staggering, roughly 5X more for contractor. > And I'm being asked all sorts of questions about the DIY versions. > > Is there a good place for information so I can educate myself as to the > different brands etc > Or maybe someone can contact me off list if they have some info to > share. > > Thanks' > > jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://pureenergysolar.com/ [2] http://solarchargingstation.com/ [3] http://offgridenterprises.org [4] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Mar 14 14:49:37 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 18:49:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mini splits In-Reply-To: References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: “Inverter based “ compressors soft start & ramp up very gently Dana Orzel C: 208.721.7003 E- dana at solarwork.com On Mar 14, 2025, at 11:34 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote:  I think the bottom line for me is super low startup surge and then fairly consistent power draw once desired temperature is reached. I feel this is much easier to plan for off-grid rather than repeated start/stop cycles. Jason Szumlanski And extremely quiet which is a main reason to be offgrid ! 😉 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-03-13 1:58 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: Most off-grid homes here in Southwest Florida, one of the most challenging air conditioning places in the country due to heat and humidity, have moved to mini-splits. I have a client's system with quad Sol-Ark 15K that is running eight separate mini-splits and a 4-ton central air unit at a sprawling residential complex. There are no issues to report. These were all installed by a reputable local HVAC contractor, so they are not likely DIY brands. I am not certain about the tonnage, but I believe each mini-split is 1.5 tons. These are in a highly corrosive/salt environment. I can't imagine they will last more than a few years each. But from what I hear, clients on the islands are treating them as disposable in a way. It's still much cheaper than replacing central air units every few years. I have another client's system with a single Sol-Ark 15K and it has two 2-ton mini-splits that are DIY by the homeowner. They barely dent the batteries each day. I see them using as little as 400W to maintain temp in high ambient heat. Most other clients have single mini-splits. I concur with one of the earlier comments to stay away from multi-zone if possible. I don't think there are considerable cost savings anyway, and I have not been able to detect any energy savings going that route. There is a guy I did some work for who is running a few old school window shakers on a Sol-Ark 12K and he has constant problems with surges and performance of the units. He is in line for a mini-split soon, and plans to DIY. Personally, I have a 2-ton DIY cooling my uninsulated garage at home (on grid) when I need to use it for short periods in the summer. It works like a champ, and it was dead easy to install. The hardest part was getting the line set out through the block wall. I think I paid $1,200 for it, including the trim kit to hide the line set and a wall bracket for the compressor unit. I think the bottom line for me is super low startup surge and then fairly consistent power draw once desired temperature is reached. I feel this is much easier to plan for off-grid rather than repeated start/stop cycles. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 4:41 PM Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Pieter, I should have said that I "No Longer" vacuum them as the extra step that I previously applied made no difference in my experience. We are also in FL. with extremely high humidity which might be the difference. Most of the AC contractors here confirm the same experience. That said, they do work well with solar applications. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: pieter offgridenterprises.org > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 4:09 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Wayne Irwin > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits Wayne, I saw your post regarding the use of ductless mini splits. I too use them extensively, and have an unblemished track record using them. I must say that your failures may be in part due to the fact that you do not evacuate the system during the installation process. For what it is worth the proper procedure is to precharge the system with nitrogen to about 200PSI. Then check for leaks and verify the system will hold pressure. Then pull a vacuum on the system for maybe 15 or 20 minutes before releasing the refrigerant. If you skip these steps you are vulnerbale to diminished performance caused by any air left in the circuit, any moisture will react with the refrigerant and turn acidic eventually leading to corrosion. I see you keep the lines closed as much as possible but non the less I think will find your system longevity will increase, and potentially the performance will be better.       You are getting about ten years so not to bad but I have some healthy systems that are 20 years old still going strong. Pieter ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 12:02 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Wayne Irwin > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits Hey Jay, I live off grid (25yrs) in North Fla. (temp range is teens - 100+ F) with mini-splits throughout the house (2,700sq'). I have used just about every brand. We primarily use them for cooling but also use heat to supplement the wood stove. I can't imagine living without them. Although it's a love/hate relationship. My experience is that you get about 10 years max from whatever brand you buy. Typically, the inside unit corrodes from condensation and leaks out, or the outside unit reversing valve locks up in cold or heat position. IMO They are not worth repairing. We currently have 4 - 1 Ton units and 1 - 2 ton. I only buy 1 to1 systems vs 1 -4 as it offers redundancy. I initially tried "reputable" brands which typically cost more but have since migrated to whatever is the cheapest. That said I like Gree and/or the knock off brand that they make (good for the price and holding up well). When I am in need of more than one, I always buy an extra to swap out whichever unit dies first. Fortunately for me, years ago, I had a buddy show me how to install them. Pretty simple. They come pre-charged and can typically handle up to 30' of line with no issues. If possible, find someone to show you once. YouTube will offer many WRONG ways to do it videos. I don't use the vacuum on the lines. I just keep the lines plugged and dry until I hook them up. My 15kW array with 2 - VFX3648R's has had no issue powering any of them. I hope this info helps. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 11:05 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Michael Morningstar > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits I'm interested in this too On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 7:39 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: HI All, I have been getting a lot of questions about people wanting to install mini splits in their off grid homes, and in normal homes. The line of questions usually involves DIY vs contractor. Of course the price difference is staggering, roughly 5X more for contractor. And I'm being asked all sorts of questions about the DIY versions. Is there a good place for information so I can educate myself as to the different brands etc Or maybe someone can contact me off list if they have some info to share. Thanks' jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Mar 14 16:07:38 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 13:07:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mini splits In-Reply-To: References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: It would depend on the size of the split 😉 It would also depend on the SEER rating and the climate you are in. I try to only use the best model in the brand for Offgrid. It cost more for a reason and can run longer into the evening before using the battery. The smaller 33 SEER units work well as you can keep a medium house cool before it ever warms up. Also can easily run on a 400AH battery all night with a reserve. They sip the power and as long as the maintenance is done, can last a long time. For instance, the Fujitsu 9000 btu. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [5]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [6] [5] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-03-13 3:03 pm, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi All, > > Since we are on the topic, does anyone have a good method for > predicting the kwh consumption of a mini-split? > > Thanks, > Kris > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com [1] > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 3:58 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Most off-grid homes here in Southwest Florida, one of the most > challenging air conditioning places in the country due to heat and > humidity, have moved to mini-splits. I have a client's system with quad > Sol-Ark 15K that is running eight separate mini-splits and a 4-ton > central air unit at a sprawling residential complex. There are no > issues to report. These were all installed by a reputable local HVAC > contractor, so they are not likely DIY brands. I am not certain about > the tonnage, but I believe each mini-split is 1.5 tons. These are in a > highly corrosive/salt environment. I can't imagine they will last more > than a few years each. But from what I hear, clients on the islands are > treating them as disposable in a way. It's still much cheaper than > replacing central air units every few years. > > I have another client's system with a single Sol-Ark 15K and it has two > 2-ton mini-splits that are DIY by the homeowner. They barely dent the > batteries each day. I see them using as little as 400W to maintain temp > in high ambient heat. Most other clients have single mini-splits. I > concur with one of the earlier comments to stay away from multi-zone if > possible. I don't think there are considerable cost savings anyway, and > I have not been able to detect any energy savings going that route. > > There is a guy I did some work for who is running a few old school > window shakers on a Sol-Ark 12K and he has constant problems with > surges and performance of the units. He is in line for a mini-split > soon, and plans to DIY. > > Personally, I have a 2-ton DIY cooling my uninsulated garage at home > (on grid) when I need to use it for short periods in the summer. It > works like a champ, and it was dead easy to install. The hardest part > was getting the line set out through the block wall. I think I paid > $1,200 for it, including the trim kit to hide the line set and a wall > bracket for the compressor unit. > > I think the bottom line for me is super low startup surge and then > fairly consistent power draw once desired temperature is reached. I > feel this is much easier to plan for off-grid rather than repeated > start/stop cycles. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 4:41 PM Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Pieter, > > I should have said that I "No Longer" vacuum them as the extra step > that I previously applied made no difference in my experience. We are > also in FL. with extremely high humidity which might be the difference. > Most of the AC contractors here confirm the same experience. > > That said, they do work well with solar applications. > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com [2] > SolarChargingStation.com [3] > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you > are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, > any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by > reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank > you. > > ------------------------- > > From: pieter offgridenterprises.org [4] > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 4:09 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Wayne Irwin > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits > > Wayne, I saw your post regarding the use of ductless mini splits. I too > use them extensively, and have an unblemished track record using them. > I must say that your failures may be in part due to the fact that you > do not evacuate the system during the installation process. For what it > is worth the proper procedure is to precharge the system with nitrogen > to about 200PSI. Then check for leaks and verify the system will hold > pressure. Then pull a vacuum on the system for maybe 15 or 20 minutes > before releasing the refrigerant. If you skip these steps you are > vulnerbale to diminished performance caused by any air left in the > circuit, any moisture will react with the refrigerant and turn acidic > eventually leading to corrosion. I see you keep the lines closed as > much as possible but non the less I think will find your system > longevity will increase, and potentially the performance will be > better. >       You are getting about ten years so not to bad but I have some > healthy systems that are 20 years old still going strong. > Pieter > > ------------------------- > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf > of Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 12:02 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Wayne Irwin > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits > > Hey Jay, > > I live off grid (25yrs) in North Fla. (temp range is teens - 100+ F) > with mini-splits throughout the house (2,700sq'). > I have used just about every brand. We primarily use them for cooling > but also use heat to supplement the wood stove. > I can't imagine living without them. Although it's a love/hate > relationship. > My experience is that you get about 10 years max from whatever brand > you buy. Typically, the inside unit corrodes from condensation and > leaks out, or the outside unit reversing valve locks up in cold or heat > position. IMO They are not worth repairing. We currently have 4 - 1 Ton > units and 1 - 2 ton. I only buy 1 to1 systems vs 1 -4 as it offers > redundancy. I initially tried "reputable" brands which typically cost > more but have since migrated to whatever is the cheapest. > That said I like Gree and/or the knock off brand that they make (good > for the price and holding up well). When I am in need of more than one, > I always buy an extra to swap out whichever unit dies first. > Fortunately for me, years ago, I had a buddy show me how to install > them. Pretty simple. They come pre-charged and can typically handle up > to 30' of line with no issues. If possible, find someone to show you > once. YouTube will offer many WRONG ways to do it videos. > I don't use the vacuum on the lines. I just keep the lines plugged and > dry until I hook them up. > > My 15kW array with 2 - VFX3648R's has had no issue powering any of > them. > > I hope this info helps. > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com [2] > SolarChargingStation.com [3] > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > 352 316-1637 Cell > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you > are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, > any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by > reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank > you. > > ------------------------- > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf > of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 11:05 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Michael Morningstar > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits > > I'm interested in this too > > On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 7:39 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: HI All, > > I have been getting a lot of questions about people wanting to install > mini splits in their off grid homes, and in normal homes. > > The line of questions usually involves DIY vs contractor. Of course > the price difference is staggering, roughly 5X more for contractor. > And I'm being asked all sorts of questions about the DIY versions. > > Is there a good place for information so I can educate myself as to the > different brands etc > Or maybe someone can contact me off list if they have some info to > share. > > Thanks' > > jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.legacysolar.com [2] http://pureenergysolar.com/ [3] http://solarchargingstation.com/ [4] http://offgridenterprises.org [5] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: e7291169.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 29708 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 17:05:33 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2025 15:05:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mini splits In-Reply-To: References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: HI Dave Interesting that you bring that up, as far as I can tell, Energy Star rated DIY units are only up to about 24kBTU, I don’t know why. Another piece of data I can’t find is actual efficiency curves. Which would be based on outside and inside temps. I wonder if anyone has info as to those two things Thanks for all the input, very helpful jay > On Mar 14, 2025, at 2:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > It would depend on the size of the split 😉 It would also depend on the SEER rating and the climate you are in. I try to only use the best model in the brand for Offgrid. It cost more for a reason and can run longer into the evening before using the battery. The smaller 33 SEER units work well as you can keep a medium house cool before it ever warms up. Also can easily run on a 400AH battery all night with a reserve. They sip the power and as long as the maintenance is done, can last a long time. > > For instance, the Fujitsu 9000 btu. > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > On 2025-03-13 3:03 pm, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Since we are on the topic, does anyone have a good method for predicting the kwh consumption of a mini-split? >> >> Thanks, >> Kris >> >> >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 137 West 1st Avenue >> Luck, WI 54853 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 3:58 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Most off-grid homes here in Southwest Florida, one of the most challenging air conditioning places in the country due to heat and humidity, have moved to mini-splits. I have a client's system with quad Sol-Ark 15K that is running eight separate mini-splits and a 4-ton central air unit at a sprawling residential complex. There are no issues to report. These were all installed by a reputable local HVAC contractor, so they are not likely DIY brands. I am not certain about the tonnage, but I believe each mini-split is 1.5 tons. These are in a highly corrosive/salt environment. I can't imagine they will last more than a few years each. But from what I hear, clients on the islands are treating them as disposable in a way. It's still much cheaper than replacing central air units every few years. >> >> I have another client's system with a single Sol-Ark 15K and it has two 2-ton mini-splits that are DIY by the homeowner. They barely dent the batteries each day. I see them using as little as 400W to maintain temp in high ambient heat. Most other clients have single mini-splits. I concur with one of the earlier comments to stay away from multi-zone if possible. I don't think there are considerable cost savings anyway, and I have not been able to detect any energy savings going that route. >> >> There is a guy I did some work for who is running a few old school window shakers on a Sol-Ark 12K and he has constant problems with surges and performance of the units. He is in line for a mini-split soon, and plans to DIY. >> >> Personally, I have a 2-ton DIY cooling my uninsulated garage at home (on grid) when I need to use it for short periods in the summer. It works like a champ, and it was dead easy to install. The hardest part was getting the line set out through the block wall. I think I paid $1,200 for it, including the trim kit to hide the line set and a wall bracket for the compressor unit. >> >> I think the bottom line for me is super low startup surge and then fairly consistent power draw once desired temperature is reached. I feel this is much easier to plan for off-grid rather than repeated start/stop cycles. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 4:41 PM Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Hi Pieter, >> >> I should have said that I "No Longer" vacuum them as the extra step that I previously applied made no difference in my experience. We are also in FL. with extremely high humidity which might be the difference. Most of the AC contractors here confirm the same experience. >> >> That said, they do work well with solar applications. >> >> >> Wayne Irwin >> President >> License #CVC56695 >> State Licensed Solar Contractor >> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >> Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com >> PureEnergySolar.com >> SolarChargingStation.com >> 352 377-6527 Office >> 352 336-3299 Fax >> >> >> The Sun Is Always Shining! >> >> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. >> From: pieter offgridenterprises.org > >> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 4:09 PM >> To: RE-wrenches > >> Cc: Wayne Irwin > >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits >> >> Wayne, I saw your post regarding the use of ductless mini splits. I too use them extensively, and have an unblemished track record using them. I must say that your failures may be in part due to the fact that you do not evacuate the system during the installation process. For what it is worth the proper procedure is to precharge the system with nitrogen to about 200PSI. Then check for leaks and verify the system will hold pressure. Then pull a vacuum on the system for maybe 15 or 20 minutes before releasing the refrigerant. If you skip these steps you are vulnerbale to diminished performance caused by any air left in the circuit, any moisture will react with the refrigerant and turn acidic eventually leading to corrosion. I see you keep the lines closed as much as possible but non the less I think will find your system longevity will increase, and potentially the performance will be better. >>       You are getting about ten years so not to bad but I have some healthy systems that are 20 years old still going strong. >> Pieter >> From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches > >> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 12:02 PM >> To: RE-wrenches > >> Cc: Wayne Irwin > >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits >> >> Hey Jay, >> >> I live off grid (25yrs) in North Fla. (temp range is teens - 100+ F) with mini-splits throughout the house (2,700sq'). >> I have used just about every brand. We primarily use them for cooling but also use heat to supplement the wood stove. >> I can't imagine living without them. Although it's a love/hate relationship. >> My experience is that you get about 10 years max from whatever brand you buy. Typically, the inside unit corrodes from condensation and leaks out, or the outside unit reversing valve locks up in cold or heat position. IMO They are not worth repairing. We currently have 4 - 1 Ton units and 1 - 2 ton. I only buy 1 to1 systems vs 1 -4 as it offers redundancy. I initially tried "reputable" brands which typically cost more but have since migrated to whatever is the cheapest. >> That said I like Gree and/or the knock off brand that they make (good for the price and holding up well). When I am in need of more than one, I always buy an extra to swap out whichever unit dies first. >> Fortunately for me, years ago, I had a buddy show me how to install them. Pretty simple. They come pre-charged and can typically handle up to 30' of line with no issues. If possible, find someone to show you once. YouTube will offer many WRONG ways to do it videos. >> I don't use the vacuum on the lines. I just keep the lines plugged and dry until I hook them up. >> >> My 15kW array with 2 - VFX3648R's has had no issue powering any of them. >> >> I hope this info helps. >> >> Wayne Irwin >> President >> License #CVC56695 >> State Licensed Solar Contractor >> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >> Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com >> PureEnergySolar.com >> SolarChargingStation.com >> 352 377-6527 Office >> 352 336-3299 Fax >> 352 316-1637 Cell >> >> The Sun Is Always Shining! >> >> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. >> From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > >> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 11:05 AM >> To: RE-wrenches > >> Cc: Michael Morningstar > >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mini splits >> >> I'm interested in this too >> >> On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 7:39 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> HI All, >> >> I have been getting a lot of questions about people wanting to install mini splits in their off grid homes, and in normal homes. >> >> The line of questions usually involves DIY vs contractor. Of course the price difference is staggering, roughly 5X more for contractor. And I'm being asked all sorts of questions about the DIY versions. >> >> Is there a good place for information so I can educate myself as to the different brands etc >> Or maybe someone can contact me off list if they have some info to share. >> >> Thanks' >> >> jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Mar 15 22:11:54 2025 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2025 22:11:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mini splits In-Reply-To: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, We offer to install an AC unit with our larger installations to remove humidity from the installation location. Always install an inverter unit, set it to about 86 degrees to cool the room economically. We use Gree, very reliable. The biggest issue has been properly tightening the compression connections. Use a torque wrench and crows foot wrenches. Also you will need a vacuum pump to vacuum the lines. A lot of installers don't and it will kill the compressor over time. Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com On Thu, Mar 13, 2025, 10:39 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All, > > I have been getting a lot of questions about people wanting to install > mini splits in their off grid homes, and in normal homes. > > The line of questions usually involves DIY vs contractor. Of course the > price difference is staggering, roughly 5X more for contractor. And I’m > being asked all sorts of questions about the DIY versions. > > Is there a good place for information so I can educate myself as to the > different brands etc > Or maybe someone can contact me off list if they have some info to share. > > Thanks’ > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Mon Mar 17 13:51:02 2025 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2025 11:51:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for likely ancient Xantrex component.... In-Reply-To: References: <5f1e64e3-ce48-4bf1-b26b-2516141684d9@solarray.com> Message-ID: <00d201db9765$26a266b0$73e73410$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: Does anyone have a generator start module for a Xantrex 5548+ inverter (circa 2006)? Feel free to contact me off list. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From william at millersolar.com Wed Mar 19 21:11:06 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2025 18:11:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goodwe inverters Message-ID: <6d5f491db145f6eeb98c7759dae04762@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Has anyone tried the Goodwe battery-less residential PV inverters? I recommended the A-MS to a colleague and he reported satisfying results. I tried to buy one of these and the size I wanted was not available. The supplier offered the MS series of Goodwe inverters but these do not offer conduit connections. Instead one is supposed to run PV and AC wire directly into the chassis as, shown below: If this inverter were to be installed in a readily accessible location, this wiring method would be a clear violation of 2020 NEC section 690.31(A). All of the residential inverters listed on the web site have this new wiring scheme which is a non-starter for me. Does anyone know if the A-MS series will be continued? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 53417 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Thu Mar 20 10:09:35 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 04:09:35 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 Message-ID: Aloha All, My engineer is pushing back on our design, which calls for a battery and load center to be installed within 6ft of the water pump and filter, the inverter is 7ft away. He is citing NEC 2020 210.8 and the need for GFCI protection. Now besides the practical reason for not doing this, I can not find a code reference preventing our proposed location for the battery and load center. This is for an off-grid new construction home with the PV equipment in the garage, using a Sol-Ark 15k and Discover Rack Mount batteries. Any input? Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Mar 20 11:07:12 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 15:07:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6d8347d8-e10b-4df5-3083-99ada528123e@floridasolardesigngroup.com> 210.8 covers GFCI protection for outlets and receptacles. Hard-wired branch circuits and feeders of a PV and ESS system are not considered outlets or receptacles. If I am not mistaken, each subsection specifically mentions outlets and/or receptacles. Even the section about mini-splits is talking about cord and plug connected units, not hard-wired appliances. The entirety of 210 is for branch circuits only, so feeders would not fall under this section. Hopefully that helps! Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:10 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Aloha All, > > > My engineer is pushing back on our design, which calls for a battery and load > center to be installed within 6ft of the water pump and filter, the inverter > is 7ft away. He is citing NEC 2020 210.8 and the need for GFCI protection.  > > > Now besides the practical reason for not doing this, I can not find a code > reference preventing our proposed location for the battery and load center.  > > > This is for an off-grid new construction home with the PV equipment in the > garage, using a Sol-Ark 15k and Discover Rack Mount batteries.  > > > Any input? > > > Aloha, > > > Lou Russo  > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com [lou at spreesolarsystems.com] > Office - 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC  > CT-34322 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Thu Mar 20 11:38:41 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 11:38:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 In-Reply-To: <6d8347d8-e10b-4df5-3083-99ada528123e@floridasolardesigngroup.com> References: <6d8347d8-e10b-4df5-3083-99ada528123e@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: Jason, That is my understanding as well. But he feels strongly enough that he will pull out from the project if I don't comply and he does not want to discuss it further. It is his license so he can do what he wants to do. I have been working with him for 15 years and he is usually reasonably, so it makes me wonder why he is standing his ground. He does not even want to have a general discussion about 210.8. Very odd. On Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 11:07 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > 210.8 covers GFCI protection for outlets and receptacles. Hard-wired > branch circuits and feeders of a PV and ESS system are not considered > outlets or receptacles. > > If I am not mistaken, each subsection specifically mentions outlets and/or > receptacles. Even the section about mini-splits is talking about cord and > plug connected units, not hard-wired appliances. > > The entirety of 210 is for branch circuits only, so feeders would not fall > under this section. > > Hopefully that helps! > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:10 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Aloha All, >> >> My engineer is pushing back on our design, which calls for a battery and >> load center to be installed within 6ft of the water pump and filter, the >> inverter is 7ft away. He is citing NEC 2020 210.8 and the need for GFCI >> protection. >> >> Now besides the practical reason for not doing this, I can not find a >> code reference preventing our proposed location for the battery and load >> center. >> >> This is for an off-grid new construction home with the PV equipment in >> the garage, using a Sol-Ark 15k and Discover Rack Mount batteries. >> >> Any input? >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> Owner >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> Office - 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 11:49:58 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 08:49:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 In-Reply-To: References: <6d8347d8-e10b-4df5-3083-99ada528123e@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: That is odd. In my experience that's a very common condition as space in equipment rooms is often in high demand. As long as it's not within the working clearance it should be a non issue. Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 8:39 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > > That is my understanding as well. But he feels strongly enough that he > will pull out from the project if I don't comply and he does not want to > discuss it further. It is his license so he can do what he wants to do. > > I have been working with him for 15 years and he is usually reasonably, so > it makes me wonder why he is standing his ground. > > He does not even want to have a general discussion about 210.8. > > Very odd. > > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 11:07 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> 210.8 covers GFCI protection for outlets and receptacles. Hard-wired >> branch circuits and feeders of a PV and ESS system are not considered >> outlets or receptacles. >> >> If I am not mistaken, each subsection specifically mentions outlets >> and/or receptacles. Even the section about mini-splits is talking about >> cord and plug connected units, not hard-wired appliances. >> >> The entirety of 210 is for branch circuits only, so feeders would not >> fall under this section. >> >> Hopefully that helps! >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:10 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Aloha All, >>> >>> My engineer is pushing back on our design, which calls for a battery and >>> load center to be installed within 6ft of the water pump and filter, the >>> inverter is 7ft away. He is citing NEC 2020 210.8 and the need for GFCI >>> protection. >>> >>> Now besides the practical reason for not doing this, I can not find a >>> code reference preventing our proposed location for the battery and load >>> center. >>> >>> This is for an off-grid new construction home with the PV equipment in >>> the garage, using a Sol-Ark 15k and Discover Rack Mount batteries. >>> >>> Any input? >>> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> Lou Russo >>> Owner >>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >>> Office - 808 345 6762 >>> Spree Solar Systems LLC >>> CT-34322 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Mar 20 11:51:22 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 08:51:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 In-Reply-To: References: <6d8347d8-e10b-4df5-3083-99ada528123e@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: Friends: If there is a practical reason why something should not be done then the code is irrelevant. I do not like installing electrical equipment near plumbing so I get it. Maybe a partition or wing wall could be implemented to protect from spray if there is a leak? William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Lou Russo via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 8:39 AM *To:* Jason Szumlanski *Cc:* Lou Russo; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 Jason, That is my understanding as well. But he feels strongly enough that he will pull out from the project if I don't comply and he does not want to discuss it further. It is his license so he can do what he wants to do. I have been working with him for 15 years and he is usually reasonably, so it makes me wonder why he is standing his ground. He does not even want to have a general discussion about 210.8. Very odd. On Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 11:07 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: 210.8 covers GFCI protection for outlets and receptacles. Hard-wired branch circuits and feeders of a PV and ESS system are not considered outlets or receptacles. If I am not mistaken, each subsection specifically mentions outlets and/or receptacles. Even the section about mini-splits is talking about cord and plug connected units, not hard-wired appliances. The entirety of 210 is for branch circuits only, so feeders would not fall under this section. Hopefully that helps! Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:10 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Aloha All, My engineer is pushing back on our design, which calls for a battery and load center to be installed within 6ft of the water pump and filter, the inverter is 7ft away. He is citing NEC 2020 210.8 and the need for GFCI protection. Now besides the practical reason for not doing this, I can not find a code reference preventing our proposed location for the battery and load center. This is for an off-grid new construction home with the PV equipment in the garage, using a Sol-Ark 15k and Discover Rack Mount batteries. Any input? Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 12:22:16 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 10:22:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07CCE298-0326-4790-B339-1EC0DEEDBCCC@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Mar 20 12:50:29 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 12:50:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 In-Reply-To: References: <6d8347d8-e10b-4df5-3083-99ada528123e@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: This is very true about the definition of outlet. I haven't looked at the 2023 changes recently since we are on 2020 still, but I think the hardwired "outlets" described in 2023 are still only applicable for 150V to ground appliances. I could be wrong on that. Speaking of subpanels in close proximity to equipment, virtually all pool subpanels around here are closer than 6 feet to the pool equipment. Pool pumps, of course, need GFCI protection, but electric heat pumps do not. Same with hardwired spa blowers. I'm not sure what the proximity has to do with anything from a code perspective. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 12:07 PM Rebekah Hren wrote: > > While I completely agree that inverter or ESS output is not a branch > circuit or feeder, thus not subject to the requirements of 210 or 215, I do > want to clarify that 2023 NEC has quite a lot of requirements for hardwired > devices/appliances to be GFCI protected. See 210.8(D) and 210.8(F). > > An outlet is not the same as a receptacle. Outlets can be connected to > hardwired devices or contain receptacles. > > > Best, > Rebekah > > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 8:53 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> If there is a practical reason why something should not be done then the >> code is irrelevant. >> >> >> >> I do not like installing electrical equipment near plumbing so I get it. >> Maybe a partition or wing wall could be implemented to protect from spray >> if there is a leak? >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Lou Russo via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 8:39 AM >> *To:* Jason Szumlanski >> *Cc:* Lou Russo; RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 >> >> >> >> Jason, >> >> >> >> That is my understanding as well. But he feels strongly enough that he >> will pull out from the project if I don't comply and he does not want to >> discuss it further. It is his license so he can do what he wants to do. >> >> >> >> I have been working with him for 15 years and he is usually reasonably, >> so it makes me wonder why he is standing his ground. >> >> >> >> He does not even want to have a general discussion about 210.8. >> >> >> >> Very odd. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 11:07 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> 210.8 covers GFCI protection for outlets and receptacles. Hard-wired >> branch circuits and feeders of a PV and ESS system are not considered >> outlets or receptacles. >> >> >> >> If I am not mistaken, each subsection specifically mentions outlets >> and/or receptacles. Even the section about mini-splits is talking about >> cord and plug connected units, not hard-wired appliances. >> >> >> >> The entirety of 210 is for branch circuits only, so feeders would not >> fall under this section. >> >> >> >> Hopefully that helps! >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:10 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Aloha All, >> >> >> >> My engineer is pushing back on our design, which calls for a battery and >> load center to be installed within 6ft of the water pump and filter, the >> inverter is 7ft away. He is citing NEC 2020 210.8 and the need for GFCI >> protection. >> >> >> >> Now besides the practical reason for not doing this, I can not find a >> code reference preventing our proposed location for the battery and load >> center. >> >> >> >> This is for an off-grid new construction home with the PV equipment in >> the garage, using a Sol-Ark 15k and Discover Rack Mount batteries. >> >> >> >> Any input? >> >> >> >> Aloha, >> >> >> >> Lou Russo >> >> Owner >> >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> >> Office - 808 345 6762 >> >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> >> CT-34322 >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 13:09:24 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 13:09:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Conductors and the NEC Message-ID: Hey everyone, I’m looking for some clarification on conductor ampacity ratings as they relate to battery cables. My understanding is that the term ‘free air’ wasn’t actually defined in the NEC until 2020 and that conductors installed in a nipple, wire trough, conduit body, or enclosure don’t qualify as ‘free air.’ That said, I’ve noticed some battery manufacturers and installers seem to be applying Table 310.17 (free air) rather than 310.16 (raceway) when specifying conductor sizes—particularly for battery-to-inverter connections. For example, a battery manufacturer offers a 48Vdc LFP battery with 10kW continuous output, which would suggest needing a conductor rated for ~245A (safety factor included). However, they provide a wire trough for the battery to inverter connection and provide a 1/0 Cu battery cable. This seems undersized if 310.16 applies. Am I overthinking this, or are these configurations typically tested and listed accordingly? I see similar situations across multiple manufacturers, and while I don’t put too much trust in marketing images, I noticed SimpliPHI using a single 1-1/4” conduit from a stack of 6.6 batteries to a 15kW inverter, which also raises questions. Is there a code-compliant rationale I’m missing, or are manufacturers and installers misapplying Table 310.17? I spoke with one applications engineer that referenced table 310.17 as the “battery cable table”. I get the value of running free aired battery cables with regard to ampacity allowance, but I also see the value in protecting energized conductors in a raceway. Would love to hear your insights! Best, Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Mar 20 13:11:51 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 10:11:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 In-Reply-To: <07CCE298-0326-4790-B339-1EC0DEEDBCCC@gmail.com> References: <07CCE298-0326-4790-B339-1EC0DEEDBCCC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8c1289403d21eebff53911e0061db98d@mail.gmail.com> Jay: 3R is for protection from falling water, like rain or dripping water. This is not protection against spraying water. NEMA 4 is for protection from spraying water. More random thoughts about the discussion that may or may not be relevant: · The original post indicated there are practical reasons not to proceed with the project. Coupled with the engineers reticence it seems another option or some mitigation is called for. · To be a good engineer one must be a good communicator. It was said the engineer closed off discussion. It may be he presented his best case as to why not and now wants to move on. · If the sole objection the engineer had was based on code compliance, it sounds like the engineer may not have a watertight case (pun intended). · Design work is all about decision making. I ask myself: 1. Is it safe? 2. Is it legal? Ideally both answers are Yes. If 1 is a No then it is time for a redesign. If 1 is Yes and 2 is No and there is no easy alternative to the design I try to get a waiver. I might talk with the building department or Fire Marshall and make my case. · Maybe it’s time to think inside the box: Could a removable spray hood be fitted over the pump? William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 9:22 AM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 If the equipment is 3R outdoor rated then it should be fine. Otherwise I do like the partition idea. A story I recently heard from a buddy was almost exactly the same situation and an earthquake broke the line after the pressure pump that sprayed water directly into the 2 Outback vfx inverters. Killing rhem both. Jay On Mar 20, 2025, at 9:53 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Friends: If there is a practical reason why something should not be done then the code is irrelevant. I do not like installing electrical equipment near plumbing so I get it. Maybe a partition or wing wall could be implemented to protect from spray if there is a leak? William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Lou Russo via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 8:39 AM *To:* Jason Szumlanski *Cc:* Lou Russo; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 Jason, That is my understanding as well. But he feels strongly enough that he will pull out from the project if I don't comply and he does not want to discuss it further. It is his license so he can do what he wants to do. I have been working with him for 15 years and he is usually reasonably, so it makes me wonder why he is standing his ground. He does not even want to have a general discussion about 210.8. Very odd. On Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 11:07 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: 210.8 covers GFCI protection for outlets and receptacles. Hard-wired branch circuits and feeders of a PV and ESS system are not considered outlets or receptacles. If I am not mistaken, each subsection specifically mentions outlets and/or receptacles. Even the section about mini-splits is talking about cord and plug connected units, not hard-wired appliances. The entirety of 210 is for branch circuits only, so feeders would not fall under this section. Hopefully that helps! Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:10 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Aloha All, My engineer is pushing back on our design, which calls for a battery and load center to be installed within 6ft of the water pump and filter, the inverter is 7ft away. He is citing NEC 2020 210.8 and the need for GFCI protection. Now besides the practical reason for not doing this, I can not find a code reference preventing our proposed location for the battery and load center. This is for an off-grid new construction home with the PV equipment in the garage, using a Sol-Ark 15k and Discover Rack Mount batteries. Any input? Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Thu Mar 20 13:40:58 2025 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 11:40:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Conductors and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are your ears burning, Chris? Because I was not more than one hour ago standing in front of a newly installed system that is tripping 250A breakers. As we were trying to determine the best way to replace the single 250 with a pair of 175s combed together but maintaining the single run of 4/0. The manufacturer's ampacity spec would allow that and we have a combination of free-air and well-ventilated raceway between the battery and combiner which is giving us pause in how to best proceed. Cheers, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] Sam Haraldson Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Mar 20 13:37:55 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 10:37:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Conductors and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0eb87e4c3f3433ccb866dd9730aab724@mail.gmail.com> Chris: 1: >From Article 100 (2020 NEC): Free Air (as applied to conductors). Open or ventilated environment that allows for heat dissipation and air flow around an installed conductor. (I did not find this definition in the 2017 Code.) 310.15(C)(1) Exception (b): Adjustment factors shall not apply to conductors in raceways having a length not exceeding 600 mm (24 in.) . The 310.15(C)(1) Exception (b) applies most specifically to more than three conductors in a conduit, but it makes a case that short sections of conduit are not treated the same as longer runs. It might be argued that 24 in. or less of nipple or a cable tray is a “ventilated environment”. 2: Manufactured assemblies are not regulated by the NEC. If the manufacturer recommends a specific wire gauge, and particularly if they provide that wire, then the case can be made that it is approved. I hope these interpretations help. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 10:09 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Chris Sparadeo *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery Conductors and the NEC Hey everyone, I’m looking for some clarification on conductor ampacity ratings as they relate to battery cables. My understanding is that the term ‘free air’ wasn’t actually defined in the NEC until 2020 and that conductors installed in a nipple, wire trough, conduit body, or enclosure don’t qualify as ‘free air.’ That said, I’ve noticed some battery manufacturers and installers seem to be applying Table 310.17 (free air) rather than 310.16 (raceway) when specifying conductor sizes—particularly for battery-to-inverter connections. For example, a battery manufacturer offers a 48Vdc LFP battery with 10kW continuous output, which would suggest needing a conductor rated for ~245A (safety factor included). However, they provide a wire trough for the battery to inverter connection and provide a 1/0 Cu battery cable. This seems undersized if 310.16 applies. Am I overthinking this, or are these configurations typically tested and listed accordingly? I see similar situations across multiple manufacturers, and while I don’t put too much trust in marketing images, I noticed SimpliPHI using a single 1-1/4” conduit from a stack of 6.6 batteries to a 15kW inverter, which also raises questions. Is there a code-compliant rationale I’m missing, or are manufacturers and installers misapplying Table 310.17? I spoke with one applications engineer that referenced table 310.17 as the “battery cable table”. I get the value of running free aired battery cables with regard to ampacity allowance, but I also see the value in protecting energized conductors in a raceway. Would love to hear your insights! Best, Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Mar 20 17:52:46 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 17:52:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark parallel 8k and 12k Message-ID: Hi All, I have just gotten myself into a pickle and so am posting this both as a note/warning too all, as well as seeing if anyone has tried this. I installed a small system with a Sol-Ark 12k a few years ago. The customer recently asked us to add some more power. An 8k was more than enough, so we went with that. It turns out that Sol-Ark will not support paralleling two of their inverters that are different sizes. They say that the firmware needs to be exactly the same, and you cannot put the same firmware on an 8k and a 12k. In this instance, I would be fine effectively turning the 12k into an 8k if that is even possible. I called tech support and once they noted the model mismatch, they basically said that they cannot support the setup and would not help me work with it. They would not even update the firmware on the original 12k to see if it would play nicely with the 8k. I am wondering if anyone here has run into something like this before? If I were to get both inverters updated to the newest firmware, might they actually talk okay? Barring that, it seems that there are two options. First would be to take the inverters out of parallel and have them each run their own set of loads. Unfortunately that is not possible on this site due to where the loads are in relation to the inverters. The other option is to buy a new 12k inverter and try to sell the "very lightly" used 8k. It seems that the two inverters share the same box. Is it possible to just swap out a board in the inverters to turn the 8k to a 12k (or the other way around). I'd appreciate any info folks have out there about this situation. Cheers, Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Mar 20 18:52:29 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 15:52:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nem3 Message-ID: <5cc6457e8093f2c51e2bf7bd620d8e93@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Here is an update on the NEM3 problem. There is a move to change more of California’s solar customers to the NEM3 rate. Here is an article on the subject. I sent an email to all of my grid-connected clients to inform this about this. I also created a web-page for them. You can find it here . This is an extremely bad precedent for the solar industry. I would watch this carefully. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 21:04:13 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 21:04:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Conductors and the NEC In-Reply-To: <0eb87e4c3f3433ccb866dd9730aab724@mail.gmail.com> References: <0eb87e4c3f3433ccb866dd9730aab724@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the thoughtful response, William. I do think article 100's definition is ambiguous enough to make the case. I'm not sure that 310.16's exceptions for derating a conductor (which would normally apply to things like conduit fill, # of conductos, ambient temp) then allow that conductor to be classified under table 310.17. Those conductors might not have to be derated, but they are still bound to the limitations of 310.16. Even if it's semantics, I think pleading "well ventilated" and starting in 310.17 is a better option. There isn't much conversation around this subject and the hardened, old school electricians I interface with would say that a nipple is still a raceway and absolutely not "free air". Point taken about manufacturers, but then again they still often point to the NEC for sizing requirements in their installation manuals. On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 1:53 PM William Miller wrote: > Chris: > > > > 1: > > From Article 100 (2020 NEC): Free Air (as applied to conductors). Open or > ventilated environment that allows for heat dissipation and air flow around > an installed conductor. (I did not find this definition in the 2017 Code.) > > > > 310.15(C)(1) Exception (b): Adjustment factors shall not apply to > conductors in > > raceways having a length not exceeding 600 mm (24 in.) . > > > > The 310.15(C)(1) Exception (b) applies most specifically to more than > three conductors in a conduit, but it makes a case that short sections of > conduit are not treated the same as longer runs. It might be argued that > 24 in. or less of nipple or a cable tray is a “ventilated environment”. > > > > 2: > > Manufactured assemblies are not regulated by the NEC. If the manufacturer > recommends a specific wire gauge, and particularly if they provide that > wire, then the case can be made that it is approved. > > > > I hope these interpretations help. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 10:09 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Chris Sparadeo > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery Conductors and the NEC > > > > Hey everyone, > > I’m looking for some clarification on conductor ampacity ratings as they > relate to battery cables. My understanding is that the term ‘free air’ > wasn’t actually defined in the NEC until 2020 and that conductors installed > in a nipple, wire trough, conduit body, or enclosure don’t qualify as ‘free > air.’ That said, I’ve noticed some battery manufacturers and installers > seem to be applying Table 310.17 (free air) rather than 310.16 (raceway) > when specifying conductor sizes—particularly for battery-to-inverter > connections. > > For example, a battery manufacturer offers a 48Vdc LFP battery with 10kW > continuous output, which would suggest needing a conductor rated for ~245A > (safety factor included). However, they provide a wire trough for the > battery to inverter connection and provide a 1/0 Cu battery cable. This > seems undersized if 310.16 applies. Am I overthinking this, or are these > configurations typically tested and listed accordingly? > > I see similar situations across multiple manufacturers, and while I don’t > put too much trust in marketing images, I noticed SimpliPHI using a single > 1-1/4” conduit from a stack of 6.6 batteries to a 15kW inverter, which also > raises questions. Is there a code-compliant rationale I’m missing, or are > manufacturers and installers misapplying Table 310.17? I spoke with one > applications engineer that referenced table 310.17 as the “battery cable > table”. I get the value of running free aired battery cables with regard to > ampacity allowance, but I also see the value in protecting energized > conductors in a raceway. Would love to hear your insights! > > Best, > > Chris Sparadeo > > > > > > C_802-369-4458 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Thu Mar 20 22:09:26 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 19:09:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 In-Reply-To: <8c1289403d21eebff53911e0061db98d@mail.gmail.com> References: <07CCE298-0326-4790-B339-1EC0DEEDBCCC@gmail.com> <8c1289403d21eebff53911e0061db98d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Is there a different engineer you can hire to stamp this job? On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:11 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jay: > > > > 3R is for protection from falling water, like rain or dripping water. > This is not protection against spraying water. NEMA 4 > is for protection > from spraying water. > > > > More random thoughts about the discussion that may or may not be relevant: > > > > · The original post indicated there are practical reasons not to > proceed with the project. Coupled with the engineers reticence it seems > another option or some mitigation is called for. > > > > · To be a good engineer one must be a good communicator. It was > said the engineer closed off discussion. It may be he presented his best > case as to why not and now wants to move on. > > > > · If the sole objection the engineer had was based on code > compliance, it sounds like the engineer may not have a watertight case (pun > intended). > > > > · Design work is all about decision making. I ask myself: > > 1. Is it safe? > > 2. Is it legal? > > > > Ideally both answers are Yes. > > > > If 1 is a No then it is time for a redesign. > > > > If 1 is Yes and 2 is No and there is no easy alternative to the design I > try to get a waiver. I might talk with the building department or Fire > Marshall and make my case. > > > > · Maybe it’s time to think inside the box: Could a removable > spray hood be fitted over the pump? > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 9:22 AM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 > > > > If the equipment is 3R outdoor rated then it should be fine. Otherwise I > do like the partition idea. > > > > A story I recently heard from a buddy was almost exactly the same > situation and an earthquake broke the line after the pressure pump that > sprayed water directly into the 2 Outback vfx inverters. Killing rhem both. > > > > Jay > > > > On Mar 20, 2025, at 9:53 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > > > If there is a practical reason why something should not be done then the > code is irrelevant. > > > > I do not like installing electrical equipment near plumbing so I get it. > Maybe a partition or wing wall could be implemented to protect from spray > if there is a leak? > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Lou Russo via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 8:39 AM > *To:* Jason Szumlanski > *Cc:* Lou Russo; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 > > > > Jason, > > > > That is my understanding as well. But he feels strongly enough that he > will pull out from the project if I don't comply and he does not want to > discuss it further. It is his license so he can do what he wants to do. > > > > I have been working with him for 15 years and he is usually reasonably, so > it makes me wonder why he is standing his ground. > > > > He does not even want to have a general discussion about 210.8. > > > > Very odd. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 11:07 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > 210.8 covers GFCI protection for outlets and receptacles. Hard-wired > branch circuits and feeders of a PV and ESS system are not considered > outlets or receptacles. > > > > If I am not mistaken, each subsection specifically mentions outlets and/or > receptacles. Even the section about mini-splits is talking about cord and > plug connected units, not hard-wired appliances. > > > > The entirety of 210 is for branch circuits only, so feeders would not fall > under this section. > > > > Hopefully that helps! > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:10 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Aloha All, > > > > My engineer is pushing back on our design, which calls for a battery and > load center to be installed within 6ft of the water pump and filter, the > inverter is 7ft away. He is citing NEC 2020 210.8 and the need for GFCI > protection. > > > > Now besides the practical reason for not doing this, I can not find a > code reference preventing our proposed location for the battery and load > center. > > > > This is for an off-grid new construction home with the PV equipment in the > garage, using a Sol-Ark 15k and Discover Rack Mount batteries. > > > > Any input? > > > > Aloha, > > > > Lou Russo > > Owner > > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > > Office - 808 345 6762 > > Spree Solar Systems LLC > > CT-34322 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 22:35:08 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 19:35:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark parallel 8k and 12k In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I once did an install with eight 12Ks. Upon commissioning the system would throw a parallel fault and shut everything down. After a huge amount of time spent, going round and round with Sol-Ark we figured out that three of the inverters were 8Ks mislabeled as 12Ks. No worky! On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 2:54 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > I have just gotten myself into a pickle and so am posting this both as a > note/warning too all, as well as seeing if anyone has tried this. > > I installed a small system with a Sol-Ark 12k a few years ago. The > customer recently asked us to add some more power. An 8k was more than > enough, so we went with that. It turns out that Sol-Ark will not support > paralleling two of their inverters that are different sizes. They say that > the firmware needs to be exactly the same, and you cannot put the same > firmware on an 8k and a 12k. > > In this instance, I would be fine effectively turning the 12k into an 8k > if that is even possible. I called tech support and once they noted the > model mismatch, they basically said that they cannot support the setup and > would not help me work with it. They would not even update the firmware on > the original 12k to see if it would play nicely with the 8k. > > I am wondering if anyone here has run into something like this before? If > I were to get both inverters updated to the newest firmware, might they > actually talk okay? Barring that, it seems that there are two options. > First would be to take the inverters out of parallel and have them each run > their own set of loads. Unfortunately that is not possible on this site due > to where the loads are in relation to the inverters. The other option is to > buy a new 12k inverter and try to sell the "very lightly" used 8k. > > It seems that the two inverters share the same box. Is it possible to just > swap out a board in the inverters to turn the 8k to a 12k (or the other way > around). > > I'd appreciate any info folks have out there about this situation. > > Cheers, > Dave > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Fri Mar 21 08:03:30 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 02:03:30 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 In-Reply-To: References: <07CCE298-0326-4790-B339-1EC0DEEDBCCC@gmail.com> <8c1289403d21eebff53911e0061db98d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Aloha All, I did manage to work it out with the engineer. After speaking with my AHJ, consulting RE-wrenches, speaking with other contractors and going through the code book I asked the engineer to add "install per 210.8" to his text reading "Maintain 6' clear of water sources". The supervising inspector and our area inspector, both agree 210.8 is not applicable in this situation. The engineer gets what he wants and since 210.8 is not applicable in this situation the language on the plans is a mute point. We will also be squeezing the equipment together a bit to get as close to 6ft as possible, throw in a 3R gutter and everyone is happy. Including the homeowner who was not budging on the location of the plumbing and electrical equipment. I will approach the homeowner about a shroud of some kind over the pump once the dust settles. Yes, I could have gone with another engineer (we use several) but the majority of the work was done and I did not want to further ruffle any feathers. I have to think at some point I will get wind of the fact that the engineer got burned by a similar situation. Also, as William said his case "was not watertight" and I think he was standing his ground so firmly that even if he realized he was incorrect he could not make the u-turn. Re-Learned my lesson here, never get too far down the design path using the clients ideas. Sometimes I am just to flexible with our clients and their ideas. Thank you for all your input, as always it is much appreciated. Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 4:10 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Is there a different engineer you can hire to stamp this job? > > > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:11 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jay: >> >> >> >> 3R is for protection from falling water, like rain or dripping water. >> This is not protection against spraying water. NEMA 4 >> is for protection >> from spraying water. >> >> >> >> More random thoughts about the discussion that may or may not be relevant: >> >> >> >> · The original post indicated there are practical reasons not to >> proceed with the project. Coupled with the engineers reticence it seems >> another option or some mitigation is called for. >> >> >> >> · To be a good engineer one must be a good communicator. It was >> said the engineer closed off discussion. It may be he presented his best >> case as to why not and now wants to move on. >> >> >> >> · If the sole objection the engineer had was based on code >> compliance, it sounds like the engineer may not have a watertight case (pun >> intended). >> >> >> >> · Design work is all about decision making. I ask myself: >> >> 1. Is it safe? >> >> 2. Is it legal? >> >> >> >> Ideally both answers are Yes. >> >> >> >> If 1 is a No then it is time for a redesign. >> >> >> >> If 1 is Yes and 2 is No and there is no easy alternative to the design I >> try to get a waiver. I might talk with the building department or Fire >> Marshall and make my case. >> >> >> >> · Maybe it’s time to think inside the box: Could a removable >> spray hood be fitted over the pump? >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 9:22 AM >> *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 >> >> >> >> If the equipment is 3R outdoor rated then it should be fine. Otherwise I >> do like the partition idea. >> >> >> >> A story I recently heard from a buddy was almost exactly the same >> situation and an earthquake broke the line after the pressure pump that >> sprayed water directly into the 2 Outback vfx inverters. Killing rhem both. >> >> >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Mar 20, 2025, at 9:53 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> If there is a practical reason why something should not be done then the >> code is irrelevant. >> >> >> >> I do not like installing electrical equipment near plumbing so I get it. >> Maybe a partition or wing wall could be implemented to protect from spray >> if there is a leak? >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Lou Russo via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 8:39 AM >> *To:* Jason Szumlanski >> *Cc:* Lou Russo; RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 >> >> >> >> Jason, >> >> >> >> That is my understanding as well. But he feels strongly enough that he >> will pull out from the project if I don't comply and he does not want to >> discuss it further. It is his license so he can do what he wants to do. >> >> >> >> I have been working with him for 15 years and he is usually reasonably, >> so it makes me wonder why he is standing his ground. >> >> >> >> He does not even want to have a general discussion about 210.8. >> >> >> >> Very odd. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 11:07 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> 210.8 covers GFCI protection for outlets and receptacles. Hard-wired >> branch circuits and feeders of a PV and ESS system are not considered >> outlets or receptacles. >> >> >> >> If I am not mistaken, each subsection specifically mentions outlets >> and/or receptacles. Even the section about mini-splits is talking about >> cord and plug connected units, not hard-wired appliances. >> >> >> >> The entirety of 210 is for branch circuits only, so feeders would not >> fall under this section. >> >> >> >> Hopefully that helps! >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:10 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Aloha All, >> >> >> >> My engineer is pushing back on our design, which calls for a battery and >> load center to be installed within 6ft of the water pump and filter, the >> inverter is 7ft away. He is citing NEC 2020 210.8 and the need for GFCI >> protection. >> >> >> >> Now besides the practical reason for not doing this, I can not find a >> code reference preventing our proposed location for the battery and load >> center. >> >> >> >> This is for an off-grid new construction home with the PV equipment in >> the garage, using a Sol-Ark 15k and Discover Rack Mount batteries. >> >> >> >> Any input? >> >> >> >> Aloha, >> >> >> >> Lou Russo >> >> Owner >> >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> >> Office - 808 345 6762 >> >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> >> CT-34322 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Fri Mar 21 08:55:50 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 02:55:50 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nem3 In-Reply-To: <5cc6457e8093f2c51e2bf7bd620d8e93@mail.gmail.com> References: <5cc6457e8093f2c51e2bf7bd620d8e93@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you William. Though Hawaii has already gone down this path (mostly), HECO is not, to my knowledge, redoing existing NEM contracts. But now reading about California's path forward, I wonder if HECO is planning on doing this. Since PUC filings are lengthy and arduous to read and digest, understanding their plans is difficult. Bed-side reading anybody? Ugh. Picking up a phone and speaking with a human to clarify these types of details has proven difficult. Different answers to the same question is normally how it has worked for me. Leading to more confusion. As much as it pains me, this topic and others in the solar industry (namely manufacturers placing an undue burden on us installers) are forcing us to evaluate adding other income streams that our license class allows us to perform. Namely straight up commercial and government electrical work, they seem to be simpler (no cutting edge equipment and janky software) with less surprises down the road, changing the economics of solar and most importantly they typically are not design-build. I realize this type of work has its own headaches but the scales are tipping in its favor as time marches on. I can't tell if I am just getting old and am tired of the constant changes to our industry or are the changes getting worse? Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 12:55 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > Here is an update on the NEM3 problem. There is a move to change more of > California’s solar customers to the NEM3 rate. Here > > is an article on the subject. > > > > I sent an email to all of my grid-connected clients to inform this about > this. I also created a web-page for them. You can find it here > > . > > > > This is an extremely bad precedent for the solar industry. I would watch > this carefully. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Mar 21 13:19:09 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 11:19:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 In-Reply-To: References: <07CCE298-0326-4790-B339-1EC0DEEDBCCC@gmail.com> <8c1289403d21eebff53911e0061db98d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <25466711-d031-47c0-af22-7553dce213bb@solarray.com> I have many times had to push back and not install the solar equipment in the plumbing and mechanical room, even though that was the original plan.  Usually the plumber and HVAC folks are all very happy to not have me in there too.  Those rooms always get over crowded, and someone ends up in somebody else's space.  I just say NO, and find a better place.  A side wall in the garage is usually nice. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/21/2025 6:03 AM, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Aloha All, > > I did manage to work it out with the engineer. After speaking with my > AHJ, consulting RE-wrenches, speaking with other contractors and going > through the code book I asked the engineer to add "install per 210.8" > to his text reading "Maintain 6' clear of water sources". The > supervising inspector and our area inspector, both agree 210.8 is not > applicable in this situation. The engineer gets what he wants and > since 210.8 is not applicable in this situation the language on the > plans is a mute point.  We will also be squeezing > the equipment together a bit to get as close to 6ft as possible, throw > in a 3R gutter and everyone is happy. Including the homeowner who was > not budging on the location of the plumbing and electrical equipment. > > I will approach the homeowner about a shroud of some kind over the > pump once the dust settles. > > Yes, I could have gone with another engineer (we use several) but the > majority of the work was done and I did not want to further ruffle any > feathers. I have to think at some point I will get wind of the fact > that the engineer got burned by a similar situation. > > Also, as William said his case "was not watertight" and I think he was > standing his ground so firmly that even if he realized he was > incorrect he could not make the u-turn. > > Re-Learned my lesson here, never get too far down the design path > using the clients ideas. Sometimes I am just to flexible with our > clients and their ideas. > > Thank you for all your input, as always it is much appreciated. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > Office - 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 4:10 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Is there a different engineer you can hire to stamp this job? > > > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:11 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Jay: > > 3R is for protection from falling water, like rain or dripping > water.  This is not protection against spraying water. NEMA 4 > is for > protection from spraying water. > > More random thoughts about the discussion that may or may not > be relevant: > > ·The original post indicated there are practical reasons not > to proceed with the project.  Coupled with the engineers > reticence it seems another option or some mitigation is called > for. > > ·To be a good engineer one must be a good communicator.  It > was said the engineer closed off discussion.  It may be he > presented his best case as to why not and now wants to move on. > > ·If the sole objection the engineer had was based on code > compliance, it sounds like the engineer may not have a > watertight case (pun intended). > > ·Design work is all about decision making.  I ask myself: > > 1.Is it safe? > > 2.Is it legal? > > Ideally both answers are Yes. > > If 1 is a No then it is time for a redesign. > > If 1 is Yes and 2 is No and there is no easy alternative to > the design I try to get a waiver.  I might talk with the > building department or Fire Marshall and make my case. > > ·Maybe it’s time to think inside the box:  Could a removable > spray hood be fitted over the pump? > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 9:22 AM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 > > If the equipment is 3R outdoor rated then it should be fine. > Otherwise I do like the partition idea. > > A story I recently heard from a buddy was almost exactly the > same situation and an earthquake broke the line after the > pressure pump that sprayed water directly into the 2 Outback > vfx inverters. Killing rhem both. > > Jay > > > > On Mar 20, 2025, at 9:53 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > If there is a practical reason why something should not be > done then the code is irrelevant. > > I do not like installing electrical equipment near > plumbing so I get it.  Maybe a partition or wing wall > could be implemented to protect from spray if there is a leak? > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Lou Russo via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 8:39 AM > *To:* Jason Szumlanski > *Cc:* Lou Russo; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 210.8 > > Jason, > > That is my understanding as well. But he feels strongly > enough that he will pull out from the project if I don't > comply and he does not want to discuss it further. It is > his license so he can do what he wants to do. > > I have been working with him for 15 years and he is > usually reasonably, so it makes me wonder why he is > standing his ground. > > He does not even want to have a general discussion about > 210.8. > > Very odd. > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 11:07 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > 210.8 covers GFCI protection for outlets and > receptacles. Hard-wired branch circuits and feeders of > a PV and ESS system are not considered outlets or > receptacles. > > If I am not mistaken, each subsection specifically > mentions outlets and/or receptacles. Even the section > about mini-splits is talking about cord and plug > connected units, not hard-wired appliances. > > The entirety of 210 is for branch circuits only, so > feeders would not fall under this section. > > Hopefully that helps! > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:10 AM Lou Russo via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Aloha All, > > My engineer is pushing back on our design, > which calls for a battery and load center to be > installed within 6ft of the water pump and filter, > the inverter is 7ft away. He is citing NEC 2020 > 210.8 and the need for GFCI protection. > > Now besides the practical reason for not doing > this, I can not find a code reference preventing > our proposed location for the battery and load > center. > > This is for an off-grid new construction home with > the PV equipment in the garage, using a Sol-Ark > 15k and Discover Rack Mount batteries. > > Any input? > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > > Owner > > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > > Office - 808 345 6762 > > Spree Solar Systems LLC > > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When > one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 26 07:48:54 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2025 07:48:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Renon Xtreme LV Message-ID: Does anyone have any comments about or experience with this brand of battery? A local distributor started stocking it. The pricing is attractive compared to other stackable battery options. It claims 8000 cycles, 10 year warranty, excellent compatibility with inverters, and a great app. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 09:21:51 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 07:21:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Inverter products, monitoring Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I would appreciate opinions about the Midnite product line up, strengths and weaknesses in regard to off-grid deployment. 1. Midnite AIO 2. Midnite Rosie, Barcelona, Hawkes Bay system 3. How is the online monitoring/control platform for these systems? Last I checked it was in development, but its been a while. Can you adjust system parameters remotely? Receive warning/error emails? 4. Any issues with battery communications? Generally, Im a big fan of Midnite, I really like how you can call them and talk with someone smart. Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 10:14:06 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 07:14:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Inverter products, monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In my experience the communication between battery/inverter has been seamless, the internet connectivity has also been very reliable. You can program settings and monitor remotely. No email notifications. I have only installed the AIO and haven't used the Rosie, Hawkes Bay, or Barcelona..my favorite inverter/battery combo by far is the AIO/Powerflo16. Installer monitoring platform works consistently though it would be great if they came up with a more mobile friendly platform for the installer. The user app is good and could probably be improved but I don't have any overt complaints. It's important to update inverter firmware immediately upon installation.. but the firmware installation program is super easy to use(you need a special cable assembly and a laptop). So far we have 7 separate sites in the field and all are working very well. Soon we will be installing our first multi inverter parallel system with the AIO and are looking forward to it. Overall, I'm a fan. Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Thu, Mar 27, 2025, 6:22 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I would appreciate opinions about the Midnite product line up, strengths > and weaknesses in regard to off-grid deployment. > 1. Midnite AIO > 2. Midnite Rosie, Barcelona, Hawkes Bay system > 3. How is the online monitoring/control platform for these systems? > Last I checked it was in development, but its been a while. Can you adjust > system parameters remotely? Receive warning/error emails? > 4. Any issues with battery communications? > > Generally, Im a big fan of Midnite, I really like how you can call them > and talk with someone smart. > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Mar 27 11:06:40 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 11:06:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Inverter products, monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My first AIO/PowerFlo16 is coming up, and it's a triple inverter installation. I can't wait! But I thought the Firmware update process was much easier – all available to do remotely. Is that not the case? I assume it requires a Windows laptop like EG4, HomeGrid, etc. That's something else I don't want to carry in my truck. I'm a Mac user. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 10:15 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > In my experience the communication between battery/inverter has been > seamless, the internet connectivity has also been very reliable. You can > program settings and monitor remotely. No email notifications. I have only > installed the AIO and haven't used the Rosie, Hawkes Bay, or Barcelona..my > favorite inverter/battery combo by far is the AIO/Powerflo16. Installer > monitoring platform works consistently though it would be great if they > came up with a more mobile friendly platform for the installer. The user > app is good and could probably be improved but I don't have any overt > complaints. It's important to update inverter firmware immediately upon > installation.. but the firmware installation program is super easy to > use(you need a special cable assembly and a laptop). So far we have 7 > separate sites in the field and all are working very well. Soon we will be > installing our first multi inverter parallel system with the AIO and are > looking forward to it. > Overall, I'm a fan. > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > > On Thu, Mar 27, 2025, 6:22 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I would appreciate opinions about the Midnite product line up, strengths >> and weaknesses in regard to off-grid deployment. >> 1. Midnite AIO >> 2. Midnite Rosie, Barcelona, Hawkes Bay system >> 3. How is the online monitoring/control platform for these systems? >> Last I checked it was in development, but its been a while. Can you adjust >> system parameters remotely? Receive warning/error emails? >> 4. Any issues with battery communications? >> >> Generally, Im a big fan of Midnite, I really like how you can call them >> and talk with someone smart. >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 11:08:27 2025 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 09:08:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Inverter products, monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9D93C08B-E477-4BD8-94B9-CCFCA7555B08@gmail.com> Mac, I have installed several Rosie and Hawkes Bay systems, all with Powerflo16 batteries. The Powerflo16 batteries are great, and it’s easy to extract BMS data to other platforms such as Schneider and Victron. I wish they had some sort of standalone user interface other than a SOC bargraph, but that’s just because I like screens on my individual devices. The Hawkes Bay and Rosie products seem robust and well designed, but I’m underwhelmed by the user interface, which seems both somewhat confusing and also lacking in the abundance of features and incredibly detailed settings that we’ve come to expect from Midnite. All settings have to be changed from the MNGP2 interface, and there is only one battery setting page for all linked devices, which makes sense but takes some getting used to. Firmware updates are fairly easy through Bluetooth and a smartphone app, but you have to have wifi on site for it to work. Battery coms were easy, but you have to use a special cable that comes with the batteries and you have to plug it in the right way, and there are no instructions about any of these things, other than some labels on the cables. Once it was properly connected, the BMS data just appeared in the MNGP2 SOC field, but there is no information to reassure you that the BMS is actually controlling the charge and discharge settings of the inverter and charge controller. I had to call Midnite tech support multiple times to get confirmation on various things that seemed critical. With other brands of batteries you would likely need to make up special connection cables depending on whether the coms are CAN or RS485. My biggest gripe, though, is the fact that there is not a native monitoring platform solution. Midnite stopped development on their own Combox device and you have to use the third party Solar Assistant platform with an Orange or Raspberry Pi device as the web gateway. It’s not overly hard to set up, but gathering all the various parts and paying for a Solar Assistant license is annoying and time consuming. Then all you get is read-only monitoring that is tailored for monitoring grid-tied AIO devices, so there are blank data fields here and there on the Solar Assistant Dashboard. There is no way to change settings remotely and the Solar Assistant dashboard feels very bare-bones. The lack of a full featured monitoring and control solution for these products in this era feels like a major fail. The other shortcoming of the Rosie system is that there is no provision for communications with the Classic line of charge controllers. If you don’t feel you need a 600V charge controller like the Hawkes Bay or Barcelona you can’t use a Classic and link it to the other devices. It has to run standalone, which means you can’t use BMS data to control charging, etc. Maybe not a big issue in the scheme of things, but annoying to not have compatible coms across a product line. I have always been a Midnite Solar enthusiast, and I had high expectations for the Rosie/Hawkes Bay/Barcelona line, but I was a bit let down by the actual products. I have not used the AIO yet, but I understand that it has a completely different monitoring solution that actually works well. Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 719.588.3044 sgsrenewables at gmail.com > On Mar 27, 2025, at 7:21 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I would appreciate opinions about the Midnite product line up, strengths and weaknesses in regard to off-grid deployment. > 1. Midnite AIO > 2. Midnite Rosie, Barcelona, Hawkes Bay system > 3. How is the online monitoring/control platform for these systems? Last I checked it was in development, but its been a while. Can you adjust system parameters remotely? Receive warning/error emails? > 4. Any issues with battery communications? > > Generally, Im a big fan of Midnite, I really like how you can call them and talk with someone smart. > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 11:27:52 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 09:27:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Inverter products, monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65908AE4-F80C-4B77-AC67-660632B3603C@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Mar 27 11:59:59 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 09:59:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Inverter products, monitoring In-Reply-To: <65908AE4-F80C-4B77-AC67-660632B3603C@gmail.com> References: <65908AE4-F80C-4B77-AC67-660632B3603C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8728f7eb-c8a3-4ded-814e-647d3d242495@solarray.com> Firmware updates of the Midnite AIO are Not via the app.  You have to get a special dongle thing from Midnite, and Yes use a Windows based laptop to do it. 2nd issue:  you can not do any programming or change voltage settings on the inverter itself, everything is through the phone app. 3rd issue: the App doesn't always work, and I had to download it and delete it, redownload it 5 times, before I could finally connect to the AIO.  I was in Puerto Rico with very poor cell service, so Frustration levels were very high. 4th issue: if you turn on the AIO without doing the programming setup, you can lock the inverter. Stupid me thought I could just turn the inverter ON, and it would start inverting.  It took several hours to get it to work and take the programming.  I was literally about to Cry.  I've been in offgrid solar since 1988, and this was one of the worst experiences I've ever had.  Luckily Midnite support is excellent, and they hung in there until we finally got it. 5th issue: programming doesn't necessarily take the first time, and I had to change settings sometimes 3 times, before it would finally take.  My confidence level that it will do what I thought is low.  Leaving it in a remote location, with no one local knowledgeable to correct issues, is seriously troubling. Once again, regardless of manufacturer, ALL AIOs are made in China, designed in China, programmed in China, and are IMO, not suitable for off grid remote applications.  They are for DIY folks and avg. grid tie solar companies that want to play around with GTB.  I've tried Solark, Midnite, Fortress, EG4, and all have not instilled confidence, and/ or had major problems off grid.  Fine for GTB, but live full time on it?  Stake your family's lives on it?  NO WAY. I'm willing to try the Rosie for my next off grid job, because I still trust Midnite, and because I just don't see any good alternatives, now that Magnum and Outback are down.   BTW, I still have old Trace SWs inverting their hearts' out.  Not ready to replace them. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/27/2025 9:27 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > I’m pretty sure it’s all done via an app on your phone ( either > platform) to set up the wifi connection. > Then via the app you can do all sorts of things or via the web > browser. Again either platform works. > > Jay > >> On Mar 27, 2025, at 9:07 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> My first AIO/PowerFlo16 is coming up, and it's a triple inverter >> installation. I can't wait! >> >> But I thought the Firmware update process was much easier – all >> available to do remotely. Is that not the case? I assume it requires >> a Windows laptop like EG4, HomeGrid, etc. That's something else I >> don't want to carry in my truck. I'm a Mac user. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 10:15 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> In my experience the communication between battery/inverter has >> been seamless, the internet connectivity has also been very >> reliable. You can program settings and monitor remotely. No email >> notifications. I have only installed the AIO and haven't used the >> Rosie, Hawkes Bay, or Barcelona..my favorite inverter/battery >> combo by far is the AIO/Powerflo16. Installer monitoring platform >> works consistently though it would be great if they came up with >> a more mobile friendly platform for the installer. The user app >> is good and could probably be improved but I don't have any overt >> complaints. It's important to update inverter firmware >> immediately upon installation.. but the firmware installation >> program is super easy to use(you need a special cable assembly >> and a laptop). So far we have 7 separate sites in the field and >> all are working very well. Soon we will be installing our first >> multi inverter parallel system with the AIO and are looking >> forward to it. >> Overall, I'm a fan. >> >> Tyrone Houck >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >> 541-787-1366 >> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 27, 2025, 6:22 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I would appreciate opinions about the Midnite product line >> up, strengths and weaknesses in regard to off-grid deployment. >> 1.   Midnite AIO >> 2.   Midnite Rosie, Barcelona, Hawkes Bay system >> 3.   How is the online monitoring/control platform for these >> systems?  Last I checked it was in development, but its been >> a while.  Can you adjust system parameters remotely? >> Receive warning/error emails? >> 4.  Any issues with battery communications? >> >> Generally, Im a big fan of Midnite, I really like how you can >> call them and talk with someone smart. >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> * >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> * >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 13:08:52 2025 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 13:08:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BP275UL Message-ID: <6D50B6EA-F8E1-4BEA-8FF6-5A9BA4F612B9@gmail.com> Looking for a BP 75Watt 12V module or something comparable in the VT/NH region to replace a broken one. Please contact me off-list if you have one to spare. Thanks, Amos Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 14:37:06 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 12:37:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Inverter products, monitoring In-Reply-To: <8728f7eb-c8a3-4ded-814e-647d3d242495@solarray.com> References: <8728f7eb-c8a3-4ded-814e-647d3d242495@solarray.com> Message-ID: <8151EBD9-59A7-43C9-BA4D-2C0D84140C1A@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 15:02:56 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 12:02:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Inverter products, monitoring In-Reply-To: <8151EBD9-59A7-43C9-BA4D-2C0D84140C1A@gmail.com> References: <8728f7eb-c8a3-4ded-814e-647d3d242495@solarray.com> <8151EBD9-59A7-43C9-BA4D-2C0D84140C1A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah. I bring a laptop for initial commissioning. You can update firmware via wifi through the installer portal but it requires the inverter to be in standby mode(which you can also do remotely but it could mean loss of wifi which would then leave you unable to turn it back on remotely). Wifi/internet is a very important condition to AIO installs imo. I have had a very smooth experience with them overall once I figured out the desired settings for different scenarios(midnite tech support is pretty great). On Thu, Mar 27, 2025, 11:37 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thx Ray. > Well to me if I have to bring a computer for firmware updates let me know > when they change that. That’s a nonstarter > > The LUX power and solark can do firmware via the web, no laptop required. > No updated firmware required to turn on > Adjustments can be made via the built in screen, app, or online. > One quirk is one update required the display to be updated but that can > only be done via usb drive Mac or pc is fine. > > Still a ways to go yet but it is getting closer. > Jay > > > > > On Mar 27, 2025, at 10:00 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Firmware updates of the Midnite AIO are Not via the app. You have to get > a special dongle thing from Midnite, and Yes use a Windows based laptop to > do it. > > 2nd issue: you can not do any programming or change voltage settings on > the inverter itself, everything is through the phone app. > > 3rd issue: the App doesn't always work, and I had to download it and > delete it, redownload it 5 times, before I could finally connect to the > AIO. I was in Puerto Rico with very poor cell service, so Frustration > levels were very high. > > 4th issue: if you turn on the AIO without doing the programming setup, you > can lock the inverter. Stupid me thought I could just turn the inverter ON, > and it would start inverting. It took several hours to get it to work and > take the programming. I was literally about to Cry. I've been in offgrid > solar since 1988, and this was one of the worst experiences I've ever had. > Luckily Midnite support is excellent, and they hung in there until we > finally got it. > > 5th issue: programming doesn't necessarily take the first time, and I had > to change settings sometimes 3 times, before it would finally take. My > confidence level that it will do what I thought is low. Leaving it in a > remote location, with no one local knowledgeable to correct issues, is > seriously troubling. > > Once again, regardless of manufacturer, ALL AIOs are made in China, > designed in China, programmed in China, and are IMO, not suitable for off > grid remote applications. They are for DIY folks and avg. grid tie solar > companies that want to play around with GTB. I've tried Solark, Midnite, > Fortress, EG4, and all have not instilled confidence, and/ or had major > problems off grid. Fine for GTB, but live full time on it? Stake your > family's lives on it? NO WAY. > > I'm willing to try the Rosie for my next off grid job, because I still > trust Midnite, and because I just don't see any good alternatives, now that > Magnum and Outback are down. BTW, I still have old Trace SWs inverting > their hearts' out. Not ready to replace them. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 3/27/2025 9:27 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I’m pretty sure it’s all done via an app on your phone ( either platform) > to set up the wifi connection. > Then via the app you can do all sorts of things or via the web browser. > Again either platform works. > > Jay > > On Mar 27, 2025, at 9:07 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > >  > My first AIO/PowerFlo16 is coming up, and it's a triple inverter > installation. I can't wait! > > But I thought the Firmware update process was much easier – all available > to do remotely. Is that not the case? I assume it requires a Windows laptop > like EG4, HomeGrid, etc. That's something else I don't want to carry in my > truck. I'm a Mac user. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 10:15 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> In my experience the communication between battery/inverter has been >> seamless, the internet connectivity has also been very reliable. You can >> program settings and monitor remotely. No email notifications. I have only >> installed the AIO and haven't used the Rosie, Hawkes Bay, or Barcelona..my >> favorite inverter/battery combo by far is the AIO/Powerflo16. Installer >> monitoring platform works consistently though it would be great if they >> came up with a more mobile friendly platform for the installer. The user >> app is good and could probably be improved but I don't have any overt >> complaints. It's important to update inverter firmware immediately upon >> installation.. but the firmware installation program is super easy to >> use(you need a special cable assembly and a laptop). So far we have 7 >> separate sites in the field and all are working very well. Soon we will be >> installing our first multi inverter parallel system with the AIO and are >> looking forward to it. >> Overall, I'm a fan. >> >> Tyrone Houck >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >> 541-787-1366 >> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 27, 2025, 6:22 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> I would appreciate opinions about the Midnite product line up, strengths >>> and weaknesses in regard to off-grid deployment. >>> 1. Midnite AIO >>> 2. Midnite Rosie, Barcelona, Hawkes Bay system >>> 3. How is the online monitoring/control platform for these systems? >>> Last I checked it was in development, but its been a while. Can you adjust >>> system parameters remotely? Receive warning/error emails? >>> 4. Any issues with battery communications? >>> >>> Generally, Im a big fan of Midnite, I really like how you can call them >>> and talk with someone smart. >>> >>> Thanks in advance! >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 15:05:44 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 12:05:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Inverter products, monitoring In-Reply-To: <8151EBD9-59A7-43C9-BA4D-2C0D84140C1A@gmail.com> References: <8728f7eb-c8a3-4ded-814e-647d3d242495@solarray.com> <8151EBD9-59A7-43C9-BA4D-2C0D84140C1A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Firmware can be pushed over the web On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 11:38 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thx Ray. > Well to me if I have to bring a computer for firmware updates let me know > when they change that. That’s a nonstarter > > The LUX power and solark can do firmware via the web, no laptop required. > No updated firmware required to turn on > Adjustments can be made via the built in screen, app, or online. > One quirk is one update required the display to be updated but that can > only be done via usb drive Mac or pc is fine. > > Still a ways to go yet but it is getting closer. > Jay > > > > > On Mar 27, 2025, at 10:00 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Firmware updates of the Midnite AIO are Not via the app. You have to get > a special dongle thing from Midnite, and Yes use a Windows based laptop to > do it. > > 2nd issue: you can not do any programming or change voltage settings on > the inverter itself, everything is through the phone app. > > 3rd issue: the App doesn't always work, and I had to download it and > delete it, redownload it 5 times, before I could finally connect to the > AIO. I was in Puerto Rico with very poor cell service, so Frustration > levels were very high. > > 4th issue: if you turn on the AIO without doing the programming setup, you > can lock the inverter. Stupid me thought I could just turn the inverter ON, > and it would start inverting. It took several hours to get it to work and > take the programming. I was literally about to Cry. I've been in offgrid > solar since 1988, and this was one of the worst experiences I've ever had. > Luckily Midnite support is excellent, and they hung in there until we > finally got it. > > 5th issue: programming doesn't necessarily take the first time, and I had > to change settings sometimes 3 times, before it would finally take. My > confidence level that it will do what I thought is low. Leaving it in a > remote location, with no one local knowledgeable to correct issues, is > seriously troubling. > > Once again, regardless of manufacturer, ALL AIOs are made in China, > designed in China, programmed in China, and are IMO, not suitable for off > grid remote applications. They are for DIY folks and avg. grid tie solar > companies that want to play around with GTB. I've tried Solark, Midnite, > Fortress, EG4, and all have not instilled confidence, and/ or had major > problems off grid. Fine for GTB, but live full time on it? Stake your > family's lives on it? NO WAY. > > I'm willing to try the Rosie for my next off grid job, because I still > trust Midnite, and because I just don't see any good alternatives, now that > Magnum and Outback are down. BTW, I still have old Trace SWs inverting > their hearts' out. Not ready to replace them. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 3/27/2025 9:27 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I’m pretty sure it’s all done via an app on your phone ( either platform) > to set up the wifi connection. > Then via the app you can do all sorts of things or via the web browser. > Again either platform works. > > Jay > > On Mar 27, 2025, at 9:07 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > >  > My first AIO/PowerFlo16 is coming up, and it's a triple inverter > installation. I can't wait! > > But I thought the Firmware update process was much easier – all available > to do remotely. Is that not the case? I assume it requires a Windows laptop > like EG4, HomeGrid, etc. That's something else I don't want to carry in my > truck. I'm a Mac user. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 10:15 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> In my experience the communication between battery/inverter has been >> seamless, the internet connectivity has also been very reliable. You can >> program settings and monitor remotely. No email notifications. I have only >> installed the AIO and haven't used the Rosie, Hawkes Bay, or Barcelona..my >> favorite inverter/battery combo by far is the AIO/Powerflo16. Installer >> monitoring platform works consistently though it would be great if they >> came up with a more mobile friendly platform for the installer. The user >> app is good and could probably be improved but I don't have any overt >> complaints. It's important to update inverter firmware immediately upon >> installation.. but the firmware installation program is super easy to >> use(you need a special cable assembly and a laptop). So far we have 7 >> separate sites in the field and all are working very well. Soon we will be >> installing our first multi inverter parallel system with the AIO and are >> looking forward to it. >> Overall, I'm a fan. >> >> Tyrone Houck >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >> 541-787-1366 >> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 27, 2025, 6:22 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> I would appreciate opinions about the Midnite product line up, strengths >>> and weaknesses in regard to off-grid deployment. >>> 1. Midnite AIO >>> 2. Midnite Rosie, Barcelona, Hawkes Bay system >>> 3. How is the online monitoring/control platform for these systems? >>> Last I checked it was in development, but its been a while. Can you adjust >>> system parameters remotely? Receive warning/error emails? >>> 4. Any issues with battery communications? >>> >>> Generally, Im a big fan of Midnite, I really like how you can call them >>> and talk with someone smart. >>> >>> Thanks in advance! >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 15:14:21 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 15:14:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Inverter products, monitoring In-Reply-To: <8728f7eb-c8a3-4ded-814e-647d3d242495@solarray.com> References: <65908AE4-F80C-4B77-AC67-660632B3603C@gmail.com> <8728f7eb-c8a3-4ded-814e-647d3d242495@solarray.com> Message-ID: A few comments regarding my experience with the AIO: 1. Firmware updates can be accomplished with the special hardware mentioned, or can be pushed by tech support, who usually recommend that someone competent is on site, in case there is a hiccup in the upgrade. I've done it both ways on several different sites with no issues to date. 2. Monitoring web and app platforms is fairly robust. I've had only 1 site where I had access on my app, but not through a browser - this was fixed by having my distributor reinstall the site at their end. Easy fix. Otherwise there is always more I want from monitoring, and some of that is potentially in the works. It is highly recommended that a small battery backup is put on the internet access so that there is still communication with the AIO when it goes into standby mode. 3. Remote programming has mostly worked flawlessly, although occasionally a program change hasn't gone through. It is always good to "read" the program settings after you push a change to make sure it took - an extra 3 second double check. I do agree that not having direct access to the machine, (other than an "On/Standy" button, and internal breakers) could end up being a shortcoming. When local to the machine, you log into it via a bluetooth connection directly to it, which gets rid of the typical 5 minute delay in info flow from the machine, to the Midnite server, back to your phone or browser. With a bluetooth connection, there is only a brief (1-3 second) delay in info. The platform is currently designed and run by a third party. My understanding is Midnite's short term goal is to bring that in house, although as with everything, that is taking way more time and effort than imagined. 4. So far, I have not had the startup problem that Ray has experienced, but it is good to know that it's potentially an issue waiting to catch me unawares. 5. Tech support is excellent and available almost always - almost too accessible 🙃 Having said all that, I have had several issues small and large in several sites, most critically, off-grid, as I've had with just about every model of equipment I've used for the last 24 years. Inverter shutdowns for unknown or difficult to determine reasons can certainly shorten my expected lifespan, as well as damage my client's trust in me. The biggest one I'm dealing with at the moment is the B1-PV error, which puts the inverter into standby. I've had a string of these errors on at least 3 recent sites, which is more than frustrating since in these cases it has been hard to chase down what is being reported and insulation voltage leakages, since they are more often than not, short lived. These errors have been happening on systems where I've installed Tigo Optimizers and Rapid shutdown devices. I'm starting to wonder if those devices might be implicated in these errors. I'd be curious to hear if others are having any similar experiences. Midnite says the AIO is very sensitive to voltage leaks, which is fine - and the sensitivity can be adjusted. I just wish the machine wouldn't drop into standby when that error appears. Howie Howie Michaelson On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 12:00 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Firmware updates of the Midnite AIO are Not via the app. You have to get > a special dongle thing from Midnite, and Yes use a Windows based laptop to > do it. > > 2nd issue: you can not do any programming or change voltage settings on > the inverter itself, everything is through the phone app. > > 3rd issue: the App doesn't always work, and I had to download it and > delete it, redownload it 5 times, before I could finally connect to the > AIO. I was in Puerto Rico with very poor cell service, so Frustration > levels were very high. > > 4th issue: if you turn on the AIO without doing the programming setup, you > can lock the inverter. Stupid me thought I could just turn the inverter ON, > and it would start inverting. It took several hours to get it to work and > take the programming. I was literally about to Cry. I've been in offgrid > solar since 1988, and this was one of the worst experiences I've ever had. > Luckily Midnite support is excellent, and they hung in there until we > finally got it. > > 5th issue: programming doesn't necessarily take the first time, and I had > to change settings sometimes 3 times, before it would finally take. My > confidence level that it will do what I thought is low. Leaving it in a > remote location, with no one local knowledgeable to correct issues, is > seriously troubling. > > Once again, regardless of manufacturer, ALL AIOs are made in China, > designed in China, programmed in China, and are IMO, not suitable for off > grid remote applications. They are for DIY folks and avg. grid tie solar > companies that want to play around with GTB. I've tried Solark, Midnite, > Fortress, EG4, and all have not instilled confidence, and/ or had major > problems off grid. Fine for GTB, but live full time on it? Stake your > family's lives on it? NO WAY. > > I'm willing to try the Rosie for my next off grid job, because I still > trust Midnite, and because I just don't see any good alternatives, now that > Magnum and Outback are down. BTW, I still have old Trace SWs inverting > their hearts' out. Not ready to replace them. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 3/27/2025 9:27 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I’m pretty sure it’s all done via an app on your phone ( either platform) > to set up the wifi connection. > Then via the app you can do all sorts of things or via the web browser. > Again either platform works. > > Jay > > On Mar 27, 2025, at 9:07 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > >  > My first AIO/PowerFlo16 is coming up, and it's a triple inverter > installation. I can't wait! > > But I thought the Firmware update process was much easier – all available > to do remotely. Is that not the case? I assume it requires a Windows laptop > like EG4, HomeGrid, etc. That's something else I don't want to carry in my > truck. I'm a Mac user. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 10:15 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> In my experience the communication between battery/inverter has been >> seamless, the internet connectivity has also been very reliable. You can >> program settings and monitor remotely. No email notifications. I have only >> installed the AIO and haven't used the Rosie, Hawkes Bay, or Barcelona..my >> favorite inverter/battery combo by far is the AIO/Powerflo16. Installer >> monitoring platform works consistently though it would be great if they >> came up with a more mobile friendly platform for the installer. The user >> app is good and could probably be improved but I don't have any overt >> complaints. It's important to update inverter firmware immediately upon >> installation.. but the firmware installation program is super easy to >> use(you need a special cable assembly and a laptop). So far we have 7 >> separate sites in the field and all are working very well. Soon we will be >> installing our first multi inverter parallel system with the AIO and are >> looking forward to it. >> Overall, I'm a fan. >> >> Tyrone Houck >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >> 541-787-1366 >> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 27, 2025, 6:22 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> I would appreciate opinions about the Midnite product line up, strengths >>> and weaknesses in regard to off-grid deployment. >>> 1. Midnite AIO >>> 2. Midnite Rosie, Barcelona, Hawkes Bay system >>> 3. How is the online monitoring/control platform for these systems? >>> Last I checked it was in development, but its been a while. Can you adjust >>> system parameters remotely? Receive warning/error emails? >>> 4. Any issues with battery communications? >>> >>> Generally, Im a big fan of Midnite, I really like how you can call them >>> and talk with someone smart. >>> >>> Thanks in advance! >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Mar 27 19:14:49 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 16:14:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Class 320 meter main combos, new requirements Message-ID: Friends: I have ordered a Class 320 Meter/Main/Combo. My vendor informs me there are new codes that apply to these cans, specifically in 230.71(B), cited below: *(B) Two to Six Service Disconnecting Means. *Two to six service disconnects shall be permitted for each service permitted by 230.2 or for each set of service-entrance conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception No. 1, 3, 4, or 5. The two to six service disconnecting means shall he permitted to consist of a combination of any of the following: (1) Separate enclosures with a main service disconnecting means in each enclosure (2) Panelboards with a main service disconnecting means in each panelboard enclosure (3) Switchboard(s) where there is only one service disconnect in each separate vertical section where there are barriers separating each vertical section (4) Service disconnects in switchgear or metering centers where each disconnect is located in a separate compartment Here is an analysis, apparently from Siemens: Apparently there are factory partitions required now and some models have them and some do not. Of course the one I specified, advocated for and that is cheaper does not have the partition. I don’t want to order the wrong one so I am looking for verification I am understanding this correctly. Have any of you run up against this when ordering these devices or having them approved? Thanks in advance for any input! William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 91318 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Mar 27 20:08:32 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 17:08:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Class 320 meter main combos, new requirements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, Yes, we have run into this for the past couple of years since the 2020 NEC went into effect 1/1/2023 in CA. At first we thought it was PG&E that had the requirement, but then found out it was the NEC and I believe PG&E will enforce it as well. There was misinformation from electricians who thought that the old "California 4" type panel with two 200 A main breakers was no longer allowed by PG&E. In fact, they are still allowed, but just need to have the 2020 NEC-compliant separate disconnect partiations. This is the Siemens brochure with more information: https://s3.amazonaws.com/dcc-data-extract/new-delta/asset/Compas/daily/Compas/Marketing%20Flyer/SIE_FL_230-71_MeterMain.pdf?100822 Best, August On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 4:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I have ordered a Class 320 Meter/Main/Combo. My vendor informs me there > are new codes that apply to these cans, specifically in 230.71(B), cited > below: > > > > *(B) Two to Six Service Disconnecting Means. *Two to six service > > disconnects shall be permitted for each service permitted by > > 230.2 or for each set of service-entrance conductors permitted > > by 230.40, Exception No. 1, 3, 4, or 5. The two to six service > > disconnecting means shall he permitted to consist of a combination > > of any of the following: > > (1) Separate enclosures with a main service disconnecting > > means in each enclosure > > (2) Panelboards with a main service disconnecting means in > > each panelboard enclosure > > (3) Switchboard(s) where there is only one service disconnect > > in each separate vertical section where there are > > barriers separating each vertical section > > (4) Service disconnects in switchgear or metering centers > > where each disconnect is located in a separate compartment > > > > > > Here is an analysis, apparently from Siemens: > > > > > > Apparently there are factory partitions required now and some models have > them and some do not. Of course the one I specified, advocated for and > that is cheaper does not have the partition. I don’t want to order the > wrong one so I am looking for verification I am understanding this > correctly. > > > > Have any of you run up against this when ordering these devices or having > them approved? > > > > Thanks in advance for any input! > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 91318 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Mar 27 20:05:10 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 17:05:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Mistake Conspiricy? In-Reply-To: <21DFB7E2-46EB-4C82-88EB-C5987C1737C9@pacific.net> References: <5c53e8593fab9654db87c9a5de0fd6ed@redwoodalliance.org> <1739900282.807916875@webmail.finestplanet.com> <21DFB7E2-46EB-4C82-88EB-C5987C1737C9@pacific.net> Message-ID: <9520cf0e91669507dca503dfd7455fcc@mail.gmail.com> Wally, Todd: I have been pondering this discussion since it first appeared. My conclusion is that you both have valid points to make: · There are forces at work to make it harder for people to generate their own power and take revenue away from established corporations. Large utilities did not initiate net metering, they were forced to do so by legislation and I am sure they would like to go back to being the only energy producers in their service area. · Not every new hurdle we face is a product of these forces. Some are driven by legitimate safety concerns. If we lump these two points together and don’t offer reasoned, evidence-supported claims to our arguments, we can look like conspiracy theorists. The solution, in my humble opinion, is to look carefully and dispassionately at the problems we face, back our conclusions with facts, and communicate our concerns clearly and effectively to the public, to our customers and to legislators and decision makers. If there is a legitimate safety concern, we need to ask ourselves: Are the proposed solutions realistic? If the solutions are draconian, unreasonably difficult or ineffective, then we are not resolving the safety issue. This does not always mean dark forces are conspiring against us. It may be that we need to rethink a given solution. The original discussion was about RSS. My view has been changed by the discussion. I have limited experience with RSS systems that are not part of an optimizer or micro-inverter system. I have been fortunate that none of my RSDs have burst into flames, but there is credible evidence this has happened. We have seen first-hand testimony that fire responders have not been adequately trained to activate RSS, making it useless. I disagree with the need to put RSS on ground mounted arrays. They are required if the feeder enters a building that has any use other than to house solar power equipment. If you provide an external disconnect, requiring RSS seems totally unnecessary. Furthermore, UL3741 has me really scratching my head. The original RSS requirements specified any voltage above 30 as being hazardous. Then it became 80 volts. Now with UL3741, up to 160 volts is safe? I am reading an article that says 1,000 VDC may be allowed. It seems we have a huge credibility problem here. There is no consensus on what voltages are unsafe and we have safety equipment not up to the task. This credibility problem looks like a conspiracy but it be more accurate to call it a competency issue. The regulators have been quick to mandate without a clear understanding of the safety thresholds and manufacturers have been quick to fill a market gap with inadequate products. It is a shame Ms. Hren did not respond to my questions about how this all came about. I don’t mean to put her on the spot but she offered her credentials as a member of the code making panel. Getting back to my main point, it is frustrating navigating the complicated regulatory and technical landscape that PV contracting has become. If we want to advocate for ourselves, we need to communicate clearly and calmly supported by facts. Labeling the problems as a conspiracy won’t win any arguments. Sincerely, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Wallace Stahle via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, February 19, 2025 10:12 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Wallace Stahle *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] No Mistake Conspiricy? So Todd, What part of the idea or premise that an industry which produces, distributes and sells electric energy to end users at great profit, in PG&E's case at least, desires to exclude self generators from their grid and plans, lobbies and in fact conspires with other industry stakeholders to tilt the ground rules in their favor by way of the CA PUC is ”IDIOTIC”? To think an investor owned utility selling energy to end users is not working to limit those same end users from benefiting from self generation is naive at least. Or even idiotic maybe. Can you further define what part of this idea is idiotic vs rational on the utilities part to limit self generation? I understand this topic is not specific to wrenching and may not belong on this list but given that getting interconnection agreements seems to be critical to the list it may be a topic worth considering. Respectfully Wallace Stahle Future Electric Energy Co PO Box 236 Willits, CA 95490 707-459-0474 Lic.#C10-762093 future at pacific.net On Feb 18, 2025, at 9:38 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: *Can we please keep these idiotic conspiracy theories off this list.* *Thank you...* On Tuesday, February 18, 2025 7:13am, "Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: Hi David, RSS is no mistake. The War on Solar is real. Due to a recent computer crash, I am having problems finding my links documenting the intentional attack on PV from the Koch Brothers and the utility industry in general. I will check on another computer that may still have the information. It is at a different location. I went on the Wrench list with my concerns when this was first proposed, until I was told to stop. Individual homeowner solar is viewed as a big problem for utility profits. There are other ways to safeguard firefighters. -- Cheers, Drake *Drake Chamberlin* *Athens Electric LLC* *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Mar 27 22:11:34 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 19:11:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Class 320 meter main combos, new requirements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: August: Thank you so much. I can always count on you for valuable information. I heard back from my local CED who is my go-to for metering equipment. SquareD has a retrofit as a work-around for the problem. It has to do with handle-tying the two main breakers so they are both de-energized simultaneously. It seem a bit clunky. You may not want to de-energize both breakers at the same time. Here is a link to a pdf of the power point describing the hardware. I will probably go with a Millbank product which is built to comply (unlike myself). William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] *Sent:* Thursday, March 27, 2025 5:09 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Class 320 meter main combos, new requirements Hi William, Yes, we have run into this for the past couple of years since the 2020 NEC went into effect 1/1/2023 in CA. At first we thought it was PG&E that had the requirement, but then found out it was the NEC and I believe PG&E will enforce it as well. There was misinformation from electricians who thought that the old "California 4" type panel with two 200 A main breakers was no longer allowed by PG&E. In fact, they are still allowed, but just need to have the 2020 NEC-compliant separate disconnect partitions. This is the Siemens brochure with more information: https://s3.amazonaws.com/dcc-data-extract/new-delta/asset/Compas/daily/Compas/Marketing%20Flyer/SIE_FL_230-71_MeterMain.pdf?100822 Best, August On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 4:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Friends: I have ordered a Class 320 Meter/Main/Combo. My vendor informs me there are new codes that apply to these cans, specifically in 230.71(B), cited below: *(B) Two to Six Service Disconnecting Means. *Two to six service disconnects shall be permitted for each service permitted by 230.2 or for each set of service-entrance conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception No. 1, 3, 4, or 5. The two to six service disconnecting means shall he permitted to consist of a combination of any of the following: (1) Separate enclosures with a main service disconnecting means in each enclosure (2) Panelboards with a main service disconnecting means in each panelboard enclosure (3) Switchboard(s) where there is only one service disconnect in each separate vertical section where there are barriers separating each vertical section (4) Service disconnects in switchgear or metering centers where each disconnect is located in a separate compartment Here is an analysis, apparently from Siemens: Apparently there are factory partitions required now and some models have them and some do not. Of course the one I specified, advocated for and that is cheaper does not have the partition. I don’t want to order the wrong one so I am looking for verification I am understanding this correctly. Have any of you run up against this when ordering these devices or having them approved? Thanks in advance for any input! William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 91318 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Mar 28 01:33:49 2025 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 22:33:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Mistake Conspiricy? In-Reply-To: <9520cf0e91669507dca503dfd7455fcc@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c53e8593fab9654db87c9a5de0fd6ed@redwoodalliance.org> <1739900282.807916875@webmail.finestplanet.com> <21DFB7E2-46EB-4C82-88EB-C5987C1737C9@pacific.net> <9520cf0e91669507dca503dfd7455fcc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0b1726a0-066f-4b9b-bcdd-780d53291a58@psln.com> William,             I STILL fee like RSS is, as implemented by code and product development is a lousy solution to a very small problem. There are other simple safer less expensive, lower maintenance measures than can be taken to protect first responders from danger. Just one example with string inverters and thus higher voltages on the roof is mandate that after the combiner box that's located within a foot of the array route the metal conduit off the roof directly behind it into the attic straight down to the joists perpendicular to the roof plane.             And then train, if even necessary, the fire responder on the roof anxious to plunge his saw into the roof to not vent through the array. I believe this is referred to as common sense. Has this ever happened anyway?  Has anyone ever been electrocuted in any type of first responding situation due to contact with voltages produced from an array?  If so, we have to also consider damage or harm done by the RSS excess wiring and equipment failures.  Of course micros are inherently "safe" from an RSS standpoint though there are more connections and equipment failure points on the roof and in our mountainous territory that means more often steeper metal roofs. Whew, another whole issue.         I realize that the DC run from the array combiner to the inverter is still hot...maybe require that run to be in red metal conduit labelled "Danger, Always energized"? Yes, I'm still a string inverter guy.             With NEM3 in full swing and the federal government now on the solar warpath we certainly won't have to 'worry' about a big rush of installs in PG&E/California area which is most of the state.  You thought resi rooftop solar was just for the well-off before, NEM3 insured that it will remain that way. Maybe this will give the regulators time to reconsider RSS. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 3/27/2025 5:05 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wally, Todd: > > I have been pondering this discussion since it first appeared.  My > conclusion is that you both have valid points to make: > > ·There are forces at work to make it harder for people to generate > their own power and take revenue away from established corporations.  > Large utilities did not initiate net metering, they were forced to do > so by legislation and I am sure they would like to go back to being > the only energy producers in their service area. > > ·Not every new hurdle we face is a product of these forces.  Some are > driven by legitimate safety concerns. > > If we lump these two points together and don’t offer reasoned, > evidence-supported claims to our arguments, we can look like > conspiracy theorists. > > The solution, in my humble opinion, is to look carefully and > dispassionately at the problems we face, back our conclusions with > facts, and communicate our concerns clearly and effectively to the > public, to our customers and to legislators and decision makers. > > If there is a legitimate safety concern, we need to ask ourselves: Are > the proposed solutions realistic?  If the solutions are draconian, > unreasonably difficult or ineffective, then we are not resolving the > safety issue. This does not always mean dark forces are conspiring > against us.  It may be that we need to rethink a given solution. > > The original discussion was about RSS.  My view has been changed by > the discussion.  I have limited experience with RSS systems that are > not part of an optimizer or micro-inverter system.  I have been > fortunate that none of my RSDs have burst into flames, but there is > credible evidence this has happened.  We have seen first-hand > testimony that fire responders have not been adequately trained to > activate RSS, making it useless. > > I disagree with the need to put RSS on ground mounted arrays. They are > required if the feeder enters a building that has any use other than > to house solar power equipment.  If you provide an external > disconnect, requiring RSS seems totally unnecessary. > > Furthermore, UL3741 has me really scratching my head.  The original > RSS requirements specified any voltage above 30 as being hazardous.  > Then it became 80 volts.  Now with UL3741, up to 160 volts is safe?  I > am reading an article > that says > 1,000 VDC may be allowed. > > It seems we have a huge credibility problem here.  There is no > consensus on what voltages are unsafe and we have safety equipment not > up to the task.  This credibility problem looks like a conspiracy but > it be more accurate to call it a competency issue.  The regulators > have been quick to mandate without a clear understanding of the safety > thresholds and manufacturers have been quick to fill a market gap with > inadequate products. > > It is a shame Ms. Hren did not respond to my questions about how this > all came about.  I don’t mean to put her on the spot but she offered > her credentials as a member of the code making panel. > > Getting back to my main point, it is frustrating navigating the > complicated regulatory and technical landscape that PV contracting has > become.  If we want to advocate for ourselves, we need to communicate > clearly and calmly supported by facts.  Labeling the problems as a > conspiracy won’t win any arguments. > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Wallace Stahle via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 19, 2025 10:12 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Wallace Stahle > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] No Mistake Conspiricy? > > So Todd, > > What part of the idea or premise that an industry which produces, > distributes and sells electric energy to end users at great profit, in > PG&E's case at least, desires to exclude self generators from their > grid and plans, lobbies and in fact conspires with other industry > stakeholders to tilt the ground rules in their favor by way of the CA > PUC is ”IDIOTIC”? > > To think an investor owned utility selling energy to end users is not > working to limit those same end users from benefiting from self > generation is naive at least. Or even idiotic maybe. > > Can you further define what part of this idea is idiotic vs rational > on the utilities part to limit self generation? > > I understand this topic is not specific to wrenching and may not > belong on this list but given that getting interconnection agreements > seems to be critical to the list it may be a topic worth considering. > > Respectfully > > Wallace Stahle > > Future Electric Energy Co > > PO Box 236 > > Willits, CA 95490 > > 707-459-0474 > > Lic.#C10-762093 > > future at pacific.net > > On Feb 18, 2025, at 9:38 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > *Can we please keep these idiotic conspiracy theories off this list.* > > *Thank you...** > > > * > > On Tuesday, February 18, 2025 7:13am, "Drake Chamberlin via > RE-wrenches" said: > > Hi David, > > RSS is no mistake. The War on Solar is real. Due to a recent > computer crash, I am having problems finding my links documenting > the intentional attack on PV from the Koch Brothers and the > utility industry in general. I will check on another computer that > may still have the information. It is at a different location. > > I went on the Wrench list with my concerns when this was first > proposed, until I was told to stop. Individual homeowner solar is > viewed as a big problem for utility profits. There are other ways > to safeguard firefighters. > > -- > > Cheers, > > Drake > > /Drake Chamberlin/ > > /Athens Electric LLC/ > > /Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810/ > > /NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 07:32:00 2025 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 06:32:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Inverter products, monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, I'm also a Mac user. Have you considered setting up a Windows virtual machine on your mac for the rare instances when you need to run a Windows application? Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 11:06 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > My first AIO/PowerFlo16 is coming up, and it's a triple inverter > installation. I can't wait! > > But I thought the Firmware update process was much easier – all available > to do remotely. Is that not the case? I assume it requires a Windows laptop > like EG4, HomeGrid, etc. That's something else I don't want to carry in my > truck. I'm a Mac user. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 10:15 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> In my experience the communication between battery/inverter has been >> seamless, the internet connectivity has also been very reliable. You can >> program settings and monitor remotely. No email notifications. I have only >> installed the AIO and haven't used the Rosie, Hawkes Bay, or Barcelona..my >> favorite inverter/battery combo by far is the AIO/Powerflo16. Installer >> monitoring platform works consistently though it would be great if they >> came up with a more mobile friendly platform for the installer. The user >> app is good and could probably be improved but I don't have any overt >> complaints. It's important to update inverter firmware immediately upon >> installation.. but the firmware installation program is super easy to >> use(you need a special cable assembly and a laptop). So far we have 7 >> separate sites in the field and all are working very well. Soon we will be >> installing our first multi inverter parallel system with the AIO and are >> looking forward to it. >> Overall, I'm a fan. >> >> Tyrone Houck >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >> 541-787-1366 >> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Mar 28 13:36:58 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 11:36:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Mistake Conspiricy? In-Reply-To: <0b1726a0-066f-4b9b-bcdd-780d53291a58@psln.com> References: <5c53e8593fab9654db87c9a5de0fd6ed@redwoodalliance.org> <1739900282.807916875@webmail.finestplanet.com> <21DFB7E2-46EB-4C82-88EB-C5987C1737C9@pacific.net> <9520cf0e91669507dca503dfd7455fcc@mail.gmail.com> <0b1726a0-066f-4b9b-bcdd-780d53291a58@psln.com> Message-ID: <025e7765-2a51-4275-b29c-c49bfd00555c@solarray.com> The whole RSS situation needs to be looked at in terms of whose lives are actually at risk.  Apparently Fire fighters are much more worthy than solar installers.  Obviously, solar installers are at risk of falling from steep roofs while trying to install, troubleshoot, and repair unnecessary RSS systems, but how many fire fighters has RSS saved? An actual body count will show solar installers are paying with their bodies and their lives to protect fire fighters from an almost non existent risk.   Even the fire fighters responding to another solar installer fall injury would agree. We all have better things to do. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/27/2025 11:33 PM, Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > William, > >             I STILL fee like RSS is, as implemented by code and > product development is a lousy solution to a very small problem.  > There are other simple safer less expensive, lower maintenance > measures than can be taken to protect first responders from danger. > Just one example with string inverters and thus higher voltages on the > roof is mandate that after the combiner box that's located within a > foot of the array route the metal conduit off the roof directly behind > it into the attic straight down to the joists perpendicular to the > roof plane. > >             And then train, if even necessary, the fire responder on > the roof anxious to plunge his saw into the roof to not vent through > the array. I believe this is referred to as common sense.  Has this > ever happened anyway?  Has anyone ever been electrocuted in any type > of first responding situation due to contact with voltages produced > from an array?  If so, we have to also consider damage or harm done by > the RSS excess wiring and equipment failures.  Of course micros are > inherently "safe" from an RSS standpoint though there are more > connections and equipment failure points on the roof and in our > mountainous territory that means more often steeper metal roofs. Whew, > another whole issue. > >         I realize that the DC run from the array combiner to the > inverter is still hot...maybe require that run to be in red metal > conduit labelled "Danger, Always energized"? Yes, I'm still a string > inverter guy. > >             With NEM3 in full swing and the federal government now on > the solar warpath we certainly won't have to 'worry' about a big rush > of installs in PG&E/California area which is most of the state.  You > thought resi rooftop solar was just for the well-off before, NEM3 > insured that it will remain that way. Maybe this will give the > regulators time to reconsider RSS. > > Bill > > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > On 3/27/2025 5:05 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Wally, Todd: >> >> I have been pondering this discussion since it first appeared.  My >> conclusion is that you both have valid points to make: >> >> ·There are forces at work to make it harder for people to generate >> their own power and take revenue away from established corporations.  >> Large utilities did not initiate net metering, they were forced to do >> so by legislation and I am sure they would like to go back to being >> the only energy producers in their service area. >> >> ·Not every new hurdle we face is a product of these forces. Some are >> driven by legitimate safety concerns. >> >> If we lump these two points together and don’t offer reasoned, >> evidence-supported claims to our arguments, we can look like >> conspiracy theorists. >> >> The solution, in my humble opinion, is to look carefully and >> dispassionately at the problems we face, back our conclusions with >> facts, and communicate our concerns clearly and effectively to the >> public, to our customers and to legislators and decision makers. >> >> If there is a legitimate safety concern, we need to ask ourselves: >> Are the proposed solutions realistic?  If the solutions are >> draconian, unreasonably difficult or ineffective, then we are not >> resolving the safety issue. This does not always mean dark forces are >> conspiring against us.  It may be that we need to rethink a given >> solution. >> >> The original discussion was about RSS.  My view has been changed by >> the discussion.  I have limited experience with RSS systems that are >> not part of an optimizer or micro-inverter system.  I have been >> fortunate that none of my RSDs have burst into flames, but there is >> credible evidence this has happened.  We have seen first-hand >> testimony that fire responders have not been adequately trained to >> activate RSS, making it useless. >> >> I disagree with the need to put RSS on ground mounted arrays.  They >> are required if the feeder enters a building that has any use other >> than to house solar power equipment.  If you provide an external >> disconnect, requiring RSS seems totally unnecessary. >> >> Furthermore, UL3741 has me really scratching my head.  The original >> RSS requirements specified any voltage above 30 as being hazardous.  >> Then it became 80 volts.  Now with UL3741, up to 160 volts is safe?  >> I am reading an article >> that says >> 1,000 VDC may be allowed. >> >> It seems we have a huge credibility problem here.  There is no >> consensus on what voltages are unsafe and we have safety equipment >> not up to the task.  This credibility problem looks like a conspiracy >> but it be more accurate to call it a competency issue.  The >> regulators have been quick to mandate without a clear understanding >> of the safety thresholds and manufacturers have been quick to fill a >> market gap with inadequate products. >> >> It is a shame Ms. Hren did not respond to my questions about how this >> all came about.  I don’t mean to put her on the spot but she offered >> her credentials as a member of the code making panel. >> >> Getting back to my main point, it is frustrating navigating the >> complicated regulatory and technical landscape that PV contracting >> has become.  If we want to advocate for ourselves, we need to >> communicate clearly and calmly supported by facts.  Labeling the >> problems as a conspiracy won’t win any arguments. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> William Miller >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> *On Behalf Of *Wallace Stahle via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 19, 2025 10:12 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Wallace Stahle >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] No Mistake Conspiricy? >> >> So Todd, >> >> What part of the idea or premise that an industry which produces, >> distributes and sells electric energy to end users at great profit, >> in PG&E's case at least, desires to exclude self generators from >> their grid and plans, lobbies and in fact conspires with other >> industry stakeholders to tilt the ground rules in their favor by way >> of the CA PUC is ”IDIOTIC”? >> >> To think an investor owned utility selling energy to end users is not >> working to limit those same end users from benefiting from self >> generation is naive at least. Or even idiotic maybe. >> >> Can you further define what part of this idea is idiotic vs rational >> on the utilities part to limit self generation? >> >> I understand this topic is not specific to wrenching and may not >> belong on this list but given that getting interconnection agreements >> seems to be critical to the list it may be a topic worth considering. >> >> Respectfully >> >> Wallace Stahle >> >> Future Electric Energy Co >> >> PO Box 236 >> >> Willits, CA 95490 >> >> 707-459-0474 >> >> Lic.#C10-762093 >> >> future at pacific.net >> >> On Feb 18, 2025, at 9:38 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> *Can we please keep these idiotic conspiracy theories off this list.* >> >> *Thank you...** >> >> >> * >> >> On Tuesday, February 18, 2025 7:13am, "Drake Chamberlin via >> RE-wrenches" said: >> >> Hi David, >> >> RSS is no mistake. The War on Solar is real. Due to a recent >> computer crash, I am having problems finding my links documenting >> the intentional attack on PV from the Koch Brothers and the >> utility industry in general. I will check on another computer >> that may still have the information. It is at a different location. >> >> I went on the Wrench list with my concerns when this was first >> proposed, until I was told to stop. Individual homeowner solar is >> viewed as a big problem for utility profits. There are other ways >> to safeguard firefighters. >> >> -- >> >> Cheers, >> >> Drake >> >> /Drake Chamberlin/ >> >> /Athens Electric LLC/ >> >> /Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810/ >> >> /NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Mar 28 14:04:58 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 11:04:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Make No Mistake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Drake: I must not have made my point very well. We need to avoid looking like the conspiracy theorists. Rants won’t do. Research and a measured tone will win the argument. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Fri, Mar 28, 2025 at 10:56 AM Drake Chamberlin < drake.chamberlin at gmail.com> wrote: > Hello William, > > The war on solar is not a conspiracy theory. Please check out the link > below for a Guardian article about where it was first launched. There is > much more information. > > > http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/04/alec-freerider-homeowners-assault-clean-energy > > Best, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH Electrical Contractor License 44810 NABCEP > Certified Solar PV Installation Professional 740-856-9648 * > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Mar 28 14:32:15 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 12:32:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Make No Mistake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William; I agree that promoting unsubstantiated ideas is not helpful. However, the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) is not a conspiracy theory.   It is a real organization with very real funding, that is also anti-solar and anti-net metering. Dig into their publications.  They are funded by fossil fuel companies, and promote legislation in favor of fossil fuels. While we should not promote conspiracy theories, we also should not stick our heads in the sand, and think we do not have adversaries that are promoting anything they can to slow the adoption of RE.  This very much includes their promotion of RSS in the NEC.  They were quite successful in plucking heart strings in support of Fire fighter safety to the detriment of solar installer safety. Who's in more danger?  The solar installers on the roof every day, or fire fighters that might not ever have to cut through a solar panel?  We need to stand up for each other, for what's right, and for our own safety in our chosen industry. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/28/2025 12:04 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > Drake: > > I must not have made my point very well. We need to avoid looking like > the conspiracy theorists.  Rants won’t do. Research and a measured > tone will win the argument. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2025 at 10:56 AM Drake Chamberlin > wrote: > > Hello William, > > The war on solar is not a conspiracy theory. Please check out the > link below for a Guardian article about where it was first > launched. There is much more information. > > http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/04/alec-freerider-homeowners-assault-clean-energy > > Best, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH Electrical Contractor License 44810 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional > 740-856-9648 > > / > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Mar 28 17:05:03 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 17:05:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Inverter products, monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It doesn't work, at least for HomeGrid. I spent $99 on a Parallels license to try it. There are no drivers that work that I have found, and HomeGrid is no help on that front. I was able to get this kludge to work for EG4, but it was pretty frustrating. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Mar 28, 2025 at 7:32 AM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > I'm also a Mac user. Have you considered setting up a Windows virtual > machine on your mac for the rare instances when you need to run a Windows > application? > > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > > On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 11:06 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> My first AIO/PowerFlo16 is coming up, and it's a triple inverter >> installation. I can't wait! >> >> But I thought the Firmware update process was much easier – all available >> to do remotely. Is that not the case? I assume it requires a Windows laptop >> like EG4, HomeGrid, etc. That's something else I don't want to carry in my >> truck. I'm a Mac user. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 10:15 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> In my experience the communication between battery/inverter has been >>> seamless, the internet connectivity has also been very reliable. You can >>> program settings and monitor remotely. No email notifications. I have only >>> installed the AIO and haven't used the Rosie, Hawkes Bay, or Barcelona..my >>> favorite inverter/battery combo by far is the AIO/Powerflo16. Installer >>> monitoring platform works consistently though it would be great if they >>> came up with a more mobile friendly platform for the installer. The user >>> app is good and could probably be improved but I don't have any overt >>> complaints. It's important to update inverter firmware immediately upon >>> installation.. but the firmware installation program is super easy to >>> use(you need a special cable assembly and a laptop). So far we have 7 >>> separate sites in the field and all are working very well. Soon we will be >>> installing our first multi inverter parallel system with the AIO and are >>> looking forward to it. >>> Overall, I'm a fan. >>> >>> Tyrone Houck >>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >>> 541-787-1366 >>> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Mar 28 18:56:49 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 16:56:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Inverter products, monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A cheap PC laptop has become essential gear for anyone working on any of the Chinese made batteries or inverters.  I've needed it for Fortress, Homegrid, Schneider, and the Midnite AIO, so far. Tip from Midnite: get a little inverter that will run on your power tool batteries, in case the laptop battery gets tired off grid. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/28/2025 3:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > It doesn't work, at least for HomeGrid. I spent $99 on a > Parallels license to try it. There are no drivers that work that I > have found, and HomeGrid is no help on that front. > > I was able to get this kludge to work for EG4, but it was pretty > frustrating. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2025 at 7:32 AM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > I'm also a Mac user. Have you considered setting up a Windows > virtual machine on your mac for the rare instances when you need > to run a Windows application? > > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > > On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 11:06 AM Jason Szumlanski >  wrote: > > My first AIO/PowerFlo16 is coming up, and it's a triple > inverter installation. I can't wait! > > But I thought the Firmware update process was much easier – > all available to do remotely. Is that not the case? I assume > it requires a Windows laptop like EG4, HomeGrid, etc. That's > something else I don't want to carry in my truck. I'm a Mac user. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Mar 27, 2025 at 10:15 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > In my experience the communication between > battery/inverter has been seamless, the internet > connectivity has also been very reliable. You can program > settings and monitor remotely. No email notifications. I > have only installed the AIO and haven't used the Rosie, > Hawkes Bay, or Barcelona..my favorite inverter/battery > combo by far is the AIO/Powerflo16. Installer monitoring > platform works consistently though it would be great if > they came up with a more mobile friendly platform for the > installer. The user app is good and could probably be > improved but I don't have any overt complaints. It's > important to update inverter firmware immediately upon > installation.. but the firmware installation program is > super easy to use(you need a special cable assembly and a > laptop). So far we have 7 separate sites in the field and > all are working very well. Soon we will be installing our > first multi inverter parallel system with the AIO and are > looking forward to it. > Overall, I'm a fan. > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Apr 1 16:38:12 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2025 16:38:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Server rack batteries Message-ID: Does anyone have a source of "off-the-shelf" server racks that can handle the weight of typical 3U 5kWh batteries? Specifically, I am looking for a rack for 8 Pytes batteries to clean up a messy installation on wood shelves. I need all 8 stacked in a single stack, preferably no more than 4 feet tall. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Apr 1 17:05:34 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2025 14:05:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Server rack batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason: I have used Chatsworth Products . Graybar Electric is one distributor. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, April 1, 2025 1:38 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Server rack batteries Does anyone have a source of "off-the-shelf" server racks that can handle the weight of typical 3U 5kWh batteries? Specifically, I am looking for a rack for 8 Pytes batteries to clean up a messy installation on wood shelves. I need all 8 stacked in a single stack, preferably no more than 4 feet tall. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Apr 1 19:20:52 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2025 18:20:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Server rack batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F117FCB-B43B-4F44-BACF-FAAB9DB8E046@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: r-bracket-8-racks.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 8584 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 2 08:42:09 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2025 08:42:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Server rack batteries In-Reply-To: <5F117FCB-B43B-4F44-BACF-FAAB9DB8E046@mavericksolar.com> References: <5F117FCB-B43B-4F44-BACF-FAAB9DB8E046@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: This is EXACTLY what I need. Thanks! Do you know if it will work with essentially any similar server rack battery, or is it specific to Pytes? Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Apr 1, 2025 at 7:22 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > If you are referring to the pytes e-box battery, pytes sells a bracket > more like a shelf that you can stack eight of them on. > > I have used this product several times and it’s cheaper through > distribution. > > [image: r-bracket-8-racks.jpg] > > Pytes R-bracket Racks for the Pytes E-BOX-48100R battery, 8 Rack Included > > solar-electric.com > > > > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Apr 1, 2025, at 3:38 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Does anyone have a source of "off-the-shelf" server racks that can handle > the weight of typical 3U 5kWh batteries? Specifically, I am looking for a > rack for 8 Pytes batteries to clean up a messy installation on wood > shelves. I need all 8 stacked in a single stack, preferably no more than 4 > feet tall. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: r-bracket-8-racks.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 8584 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Apr 2 11:25:29 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2025 10:25:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Server rack batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89BC1706-0D57-4045-B852-737DA8BEA9ED@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 916579 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 2 15:25:52 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2025 15:25:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sonnen Message-ID: Is Sonnen still around in the US market? I don't see many of them, and when I do, I usually propose removing them and starting over. I am not sure if support is available for their legacy products and if it's worth even trying. I just had another client reach out to me desperately looking for help. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 12:54:10 2025 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2025 12:54:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attachment Identification Message-ID: Wrenchers, I have a client whose prior system (not installed by us) is leaking. The roofer and solar contractor are pointing fingers at each other. They asked for my opinion and sent a picture of the attachments. Anyone know what this is (see attached)? They said the lag goes right through the attachment into wood purlins. No sealant. It's on the top of the corrugated ridge. I was trying to figure out if it's an improper use of the equipment or just a bad design... Thanks for any thoughts. Adam Adam Katzman (he/him) Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 9073422807081538198.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 298501 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 13:00:22 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2025 10:00:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attachment Identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's a Snapnrack straddle block.. that's how it installs but should definitely have sealant in the penetration. I have attached the installation guide On Fri, Apr 4, 2025, 9:55 AM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenchers, > I have a client whose prior system (not installed by us) is leaking. The > roofer and solar contractor are pointing fingers at each other. They asked > for my opinion and sent a picture of the attachments. Anyone know what this > is (see attached)? They said the lag goes right through the attachment into > wood purlins. No sealant. It's on the top of the corrugated ridge. I was > trying to figure out if it's an improper use of the equipment or just a bad > design... > Thanks for any thoughts. > Adam > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Series 100_Corrugated_Block_Installation_Guide.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1486300 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Apr 4 13:02:26 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2025 10:02:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attachment Identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <817224052090d174d60951efd6231853@mail.gmail.com> Adam: It’s a Snap-n-rack Corrugated Straddle Block 232-02421. I don’t recommend them. They don’t fit all profiles and it’s tough to get just the right amount of sealant under the block. And I don’t like to rely on caulk. No caulk is even worse, as you have discovered. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *AE Solar via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Friday, April 4, 2025 9:54 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* AE Solar *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Attachment Identification Wrenchers, I have a client whose prior system (not installed by us) is leaking. The roofer and solar contractor are pointing fingers at each other. They asked for my opinion and sent a picture of the attachments. Anyone know what this is (see attached)? They said the lag goes right through the attachment into wood purlins. No sealant. It's on the top of the corrugated ridge. I was trying to figure out if it's an improper use of the equipment or just a bad design... Thanks for any thoughts. Adam Adam Katzman (he/him) Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Fri Apr 4 13:05:01 2025 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2025 10:05:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attachment Identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is a SnapnRack straddle block. It looks installed correctly. We would normally out some sealant where it goes thru the roof as well but it would be hard for water to flow up hill to the top of the corrugation and leak much. We haven't done many roofs with these but haven't had any troubles with any of them either. This type of roof is notorious for the standard roofing screws or nails backing themselves out due to freeze/thaw cycles over time. My first suspicion would be with the roofing screws which are normally installed in the valley of the corrugation where the water typically is. Kirpal On Fri, Apr 4, 2025, 9:55 AM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenchers, > I have a client whose prior system (not installed by us) is leaking. The > roofer and solar contractor are pointing fingers at each other. They asked > for my opinion and sent a picture of the attachments. Anyone know what this > is (see attached)? They said the lag goes right through the attachment into > wood purlins. No sealant. It's on the top of the corrugated ridge. I was > trying to figure out if it's an improper use of the equipment or just a bad > design... > Thanks for any thoughts. > Adam > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 13:07:44 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2025 11:07:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attachment Identification In-Reply-To: <817224052090d174d60951efd6231853@mail.gmail.com> References: <817224052090d174d60951efd6231853@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: whta makes that particular install bad is that it looks like the lag isn’t the correct length. It should have a shank and not threads going through the roof metal, not threads. It still needs caulk. Not the best design. jay > On Apr 4, 2025, at 11:02 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Adam: > > It’s a Snap-n-rack Corrugated Straddle Block 232-02421. > > I don’t recommend them. They don’t fit all profiles and it’s tough to get just the right amount of sealant under the block. And I don’t like to rely on caulk. No caulk is even worse, as you have discovered. > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of AE Solar via RE-wrenches > Sent: Friday, April 4, 2025 9:54 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: AE Solar > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attachment Identification > > Wrenchers, > I have a client whose prior system (not installed by us) is leaking. The roofer and solar contractor are pointing fingers at each other. They asked for my opinion and sent a picture of the attachments. Anyone know what this is (see attached)? They said the lag goes right through the attachment into wood purlins. No sealant. It's on the top of the corrugated ridge. I was trying to figure out if it's an improper use of the equipment or just a bad design... > Thanks for any thoughts. > Adam > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 13:09:18 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2025 11:09:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] opticsRE In-Reply-To: References: <817224052090d174d60951efd6231853@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8E4C446B-4663-46D7-8A5D-5AF8543CB1C7@gmail.com> does anyone know the story of opticsRE status? And I just tried to log in, it’s been a few months maybe and it won’t let me. Thoughts on that as well? thanks jay From toddcory at finestplanet.com Fri Apr 4 13:21:09 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2025 10:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] opticsRE In-Reply-To: <8E4C446B-4663-46D7-8A5D-5AF8543CB1C7@gmail.com> References: <817224052090d174d60951efd6231853@mail.gmail.com> <8E4C446B-4663-46D7-8A5D-5AF8543CB1C7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1743787269.55259185@webmail.finestplanet.com> working fine here On Friday, April 4, 2025 10:09am, "jay via RE-wrenches" said: > does anyone know the story of opticsRE status? > > And I just tried to log in, it’s been a few months maybe and it won’t > let me. > Thoughts on that as well? > > thanks > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 13:29:56 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2025 11:29:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] opticsRE In-Reply-To: <1743787269.55259185@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <817224052090d174d60951efd6231853@mail.gmail.com> <8E4C446B-4663-46D7-8A5D-5AF8543CB1C7@gmail.com> <1743787269.55259185@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Mine works fine too. On Fri, Apr 4, 2025, 11:22 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > working fine here > > > > > > On Friday, April 4, 2025 10:09am, "jay via RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: > > > does anyone know the story of opticsRE status? > > > > And I just tried to log in, it’s been a few months maybe and it won’t > > let me. > > Thoughts on that as well? > > > > thanks > > jay > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ryan.harkins at energycraft.com Fri Apr 4 14:49:38 2025 From: ryan.harkins at energycraft.com (Ryan Harkins) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2025 13:49:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attachment Identification In-Reply-To: References: <817224052090d174d60951efd6231853@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <279C6E0D-458D-4643-9BA1-BD1C470F3BB5@energycraft.com> Definitely SnapNRack blocks. We usually order a site-specific thickness of EPDM rubber sheet, and make our own square rubber washers to compress between the roof sheets and the snapnrack blocks in these cases. Ryan Harkins Synergy Renewable Systems, LLC PO Box 58 Stoughton, WI 53589 PH: (608) 712-7862 > On Apr 4, 2025, at 12:07 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > whta makes that particular install bad is that it looks like the lag isn’t the correct length. > It should have a shank and not threads going through the roof metal, not threads. It still needs caulk. > > Not the best design. > > jay > >> On Apr 4, 2025, at 11:02 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Adam: >> >> It’s a Snap-n-rack Corrugated Straddle Block 232-02421. >> >> I don’t recommend them. They don’t fit all profiles and it’s tough to get just the right amount of sealant under the block. And I don’t like to rely on caulk. No caulk is even worse, as you have discovered. >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of AE Solar via RE-wrenches >> Sent: Friday, April 4, 2025 9:54 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: AE Solar >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attachment Identification >> >> Wrenchers, >> I have a client whose prior system (not installed by us) is leaking. The roofer and solar contractor are pointing fingers at each other. They asked for my opinion and sent a picture of the attachments. Anyone know what this is (see attached)? They said the lag goes right through the attachment into wood purlins. No sealant. It's on the top of the corrugated ridge. I was trying to figure out if it's an improper use of the equipment or just a bad design... >> Thanks for any thoughts. >> Adam >> >> Adam Katzman (he/him) >> Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator >> www.AutonomousEnergies.com >> (518) 567-1468 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 17:17:31 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2025 17:17:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attachment Identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would say in snow and ice country, it wouldn't be difficult for water to find it's way under the metal membrane with no caulk or butyl in those penetrations. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Fri, Apr 4, 2025, 1:06 PM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That is a SnapnRack straddle block. It looks installed correctly. > We would normally out some sealant where it goes thru the roof as well but > it would be hard for water to flow up hill to the top of the corrugation > and leak much. > We haven't done many roofs with these but haven't had any troubles with > any of them either. > This type of roof is notorious for the standard roofing screws or nails > backing themselves out due to freeze/thaw cycles over time. > My first suspicion would be with the roofing screws which are normally > installed in the valley of the corrugation where the water typically is. > Kirpal > > On Fri, Apr 4, 2025, 9:55 AM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wrenchers, >> I have a client whose prior system (not installed by us) is leaking. The >> roofer and solar contractor are pointing fingers at each other. They asked >> for my opinion and sent a picture of the attachments. Anyone know what this >> is (see attached)? They said the lag goes right through the attachment into >> wood purlins. No sealant. It's on the top of the corrugated ridge. I was >> trying to figure out if it's an improper use of the equipment or just a bad >> design... >> Thanks for any thoughts. >> Adam >> >> Adam Katzman (he/him) >> Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator >> www.AutonomousEnergies.com >> (518) 567-1468 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Apr 4 17:50:27 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2025 14:50:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Listed systems Message-ID: Friends: There is nothing like an argument with a building official to make me question my sanity. We are permitting an Enphase system. The plan checker says we are required to declare our PV wiring is in compliance with 690.31. As I read 690.31 the first paragraph tells me the section does not apply because we are installing a listed system. The PV leads are covers under the module listing and the Q cable under the Enphase listing. There are no jumpers. 690.31 says listed systems “shall be permitted.” The wording is a bit confusing but that is my interpretation. Am I missing something? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 18:14:07 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2025 16:14:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Listed systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Apr 4 18:44:07 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2025 15:44:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Listed systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Only if I field-fabricated the cable. Then I’d have to verify wire gauge by citing the current and temperature derate. We don’t add any cable. It’s all factory provided and listed. https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/Hinge/Hinge.html Thanks for looking at this. You guys and gals are always helpful. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Fri, Apr 4, 2025 at 3:14 PM Jay wrote: > I dont know which code you’re on. > Wouldn’t 690.31.c.1 work? > (2020) > > > On Apr 4, 2025, at 3:50 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > There is nothing like an argument with a building official to make me > question my sanity. > > We are permitting an Enphase system. The plan checker says we are required > to declare our PV wiring is in compliance with 690.31. > > As I read 690.31 the first paragraph tells me the section does not apply > because we are installing a listed system. The PV leads are covers under > the module listing and the Q cable under the Enphase listing. There are no > jumpers. 690.31 says listed systems “shall be permitted.” > > The wording is a bit confusing but that is my interpretation. > > Am I missing something? > > Thanks in advance. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Apr 4 19:08:19 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2025 16:08:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attachment Identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Friends: I prefer the EJOTs for this application. JT3 for steel and JA3 for wood. I prefer the FZD gasket as it fits all profiles. They install in seconds and require no sealant. I have had a difficult time sourcing them lately. Anyone know of a reliable distributor? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Fri, Apr 4, 2025 at 2:18 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I would say in snow and ice country, it wouldn't be difficult for water to > find it's way under the metal membrane with no caulk or butyl in those > penetrations. > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > On Fri, Apr 4, 2025, 1:06 PM Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> That is a SnapnRack straddle block. It looks installed correctly. >> We would normally out some sealant where it goes thru the roof as well >> but it would be hard for water to flow up hill to the top of the >> corrugation and leak much. >> We haven't done many roofs with these but haven't had any troubles with >> any of them either. >> This type of roof is notorious for the standard roofing screws or nails >> backing themselves out due to freeze/thaw cycles over time. >> My first suspicion would be with the roofing screws which are normally >> installed in the valley of the corrugation where the water typically is. >> Kirpal >> >> On Fri, Apr 4, 2025, 9:55 AM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Wrenchers, >>> I have a client whose prior system (not installed by us) is leaking. The >>> roofer and solar contractor are pointing fingers at each other. They asked >>> for my opinion and sent a picture of the attachments. Anyone know what this >>> is (see attached)? They said the lag goes right through the attachment into >>> wood purlins. No sealant. It's on the top of the corrugated ridge. I was >>> trying to figure out if it's an improper use of the equipment or just a bad >>> design... >>> Thanks for any thoughts. >>> Adam >>> >>> Adam Katzman (he/him) >>> Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator >>> www.AutonomousEnergies.com >>> (518) 567-1468 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Apr 5 07:47:46 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2025 07:47:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Listed systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have successfully argued numerous times that section 690.31, in its entirety, refers to the DC conductors of a photovoltaic system only. The DC conductors of the listed PV module are the only conductors that would fall under this section. The fact that Enphase uses Type DG cable for the inverter output circuit does not mean it needs to comply with NEC 690.31(C), although it does. Enphase had a tech brief titled "Planning for an IQ Microinverter System" that has information about the listing and specifications of their Q Cable that might be helpful. If I were responding to this plan reviewer, my response would be simply that the section cited does not apply to the inverter output circuit. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Apr 4, 2025 at 5:50 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Friends: > > There is nothing like an argument with a building official to make me > question my sanity. > > We are permitting an Enphase system. The plan checker says we are required > to declare our PV wiring is in compliance with 690.31. > > As I read 690.31 the first paragraph tells me the section does not apply > because we are installing a listed system. The PV leads are covers under > the module listing and the Q cable under the Enphase listing. There are no > jumpers. 690.31 says listed systems “shall be permitted.” > > The wording is a bit confusing but that is my interpretation. > > Am I missing something? > > Thanks in advance. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Apr 5 14:20:52 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2025 14:20:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian - Mate 3 incorrect high voltage reading Message-ID: A Radian 4048 disconnected from the grid with a high grid voltage error showing on the Mate 3. The Mate 3 was displaying a voltage of 279 - 280 V. The Mate 3 was replaced with another Mate 3, and the high voltage reading remained. When the voltage was checked with two separate multi meters, the readings came out to 249 - 250 V. I believe that the 249 - 250 volt reading is correct. The incorrect, high voltage reading seems to be coming for the inverter, not the Mate 3, since two Mates were used. Has anyone experienced this? What could be the cause and solution to the problem? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH Electrical Contractor License 44810 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional 740-856-9648 -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sun Apr 6 09:19:46 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 08:19:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian - Mate 3 incorrect high voltage reading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe the Calibrate setting got changed somehow. OpticsRE: Device Map, Inverter, Calibrate. From the Mate: Lock, 141, Settings, Inverter, Calibrate. Make sure the settings are Zero offset or at least appropriate. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Apr 5, 2025, at 1:22 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > A Radian 4048 disconnected from the grid with a high grid voltage error showing on the Mate 3. The Mate 3 was displaying a voltage of 279 - 280 V. The Mate 3 was replaced with another Mate 3, and the high voltage reading remained. > > When the voltage was checked with two separate multi meters, the readings came out to 249 - 250 V. I believe that the 249 - 250 volt reading is correct. > > The incorrect, high voltage reading seems to be coming for the inverter, not the Mate 3, since two Mates were used. > > Has anyone experienced this? > > What could be the cause and solution to the problem? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH Electrical Contractor License 44810 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional > 740-856-9648 > > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 09:25:13 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 07:25:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian - Mate 3 incorrect high voltage reading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also look for loose connections and corrosion. If it tries to push current and the voltage rapidly rises, it can indicate resistance somewhere. Good luck! On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 7:20 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Maybe the Calibrate setting got changed somehow. > > OpticsRE: Device Map, Inverter, Calibrate. > > From the Mate: Lock, 141, Settings, Inverter, Calibrate. > > Make sure the settings are Zero offset or at least appropriate. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Apr 5, 2025, at 1:22 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > A Radian 4048 disconnected from the grid with a high grid voltage error > showing on the Mate 3. The Mate 3 was displaying a voltage of 279 - 280 V. > The Mate 3 was replaced with another Mate 3, and the high voltage reading > remained. > When the voltage was checked with two separate multi meters, the readings > came out to 249 - 250 V. I believe that the 249 - 250 volt reading is > correct. > > The incorrect, high voltage reading seems to be coming for the inverter, > not the Mate 3, since two Mates were used. > > Has anyone experienced this? > > What could be the cause and solution to the problem? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLCOH Electrical Contractor License 44810NABCEP Certified > Solar PV Installation Professional740-856-9648* > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 09:38:35 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 07:38:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian - Mate 3 incorrect high voltage reading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sun Apr 6 09:58:17 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 08:58:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian - Mate 3 incorrect high voltage reading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 970406 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Apr 6 10:19:49 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 10:19:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insulation Resistance Testing with Klein ET600 Message-ID: If anyone is using this tester to do insulation resistance testing, I would appreciate any pointers you have. I have used it successfully to test home run DC strings from rooftop junction boxes to inverters to check for nicks in wires and hard faults to ground or short circuits. However, I am currently facing a Sol-Ark 15K with three strings of PV that all seem to cause an intermittent DC insulation fault (F24). I have isolated each string by disconnecting the other strings at the rooftop junction box. With only one string connected to the inverter, regardless of which string it is, I will eventually get the F24 error. Since I have ruled out the home run wiring, It appears the issue must be within the array somewhere. I would like to use the ET600 to help track it down, but I am reading conflicting information on how to properly undertake the test on each string. I know that I can disconnect the conductors between each PV string and the junction box and test each jumper wire individually while disconnected. But what about the PV module leads within the string of connected modules? I'm suspecting a pinched PV module lead somewhere, but I don't know where to start looking. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Sun Apr 6 11:03:29 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 08:03:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insulation Resistance Testing with Klein ET600 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, SolArk tech support has told us to land the PV equipment ground directly to an electrode. ie do not land the PV ground in the inverter’s built in ground-bar. This detail wasn’t in their manuals years ago. I hope this is helpful 🤙🏼 David On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 7:19 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > If anyone is using this tester to do insulation resistance testing, I > would appreciate any pointers you have. > > I have used it successfully to test home run DC strings from > rooftop junction boxes to inverters to check for nicks in wires and hard > faults to ground or short circuits. However, I am currently facing a > Sol-Ark 15K with three strings of PV that all seem to cause an intermittent > DC insulation fault (F24). I have isolated each string by disconnecting the > other strings at the rooftop junction box. With only one string connected > to the inverter, regardless of which string it is, I will eventually get > the F24 error. > > Since I have ruled out the home run wiring, It appears the issue must be > within the array somewhere. I would like to use the ET600 to help track it > down, but I am reading conflicting information on how to properly undertake > the test on each string. I know that I can disconnect the conductors > between each PV string and the junction box and test each jumper wire > individually while disconnected. But what about the PV module leads > within the string of connected modules? I'm suspecting a pinched PV module > lead somewhere, but I don't know where to start looking. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Apr 6 11:09:42 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 11:09:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insulation Resistance Testing with Klein ET600 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's a good point. I didn't install this system, but I know for certain the PV EGC is not landed in either of the dual Sol-Ark inverters. It must be landed on a grounding terminal in a wiring trough or load center. I'll have to track that down. I'm not sure how the GE system is installed, either. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 11:03 AM david quattro wrote: > Hi Jason, > SolArk tech support has told us to land the PV equipment ground > directly to an electrode. ie do not land the PV ground in the inverter’s > built in ground-bar. This detail wasn’t in their manuals years ago. I hope > this is helpful 🤙🏼 > David > > > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 7:19 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> If anyone is using this tester to do insulation resistance testing, I >> would appreciate any pointers you have. >> >> I have used it successfully to test home run DC strings from >> rooftop junction boxes to inverters to check for nicks in wires and hard >> faults to ground or short circuits. However, I am currently facing a >> Sol-Ark 15K with three strings of PV that all seem to cause an intermittent >> DC insulation fault (F24). I have isolated each string by disconnecting the >> other strings at the rooftop junction box. With only one string connected >> to the inverter, regardless of which string it is, I will eventually get >> the F24 error. >> >> Since I have ruled out the home run wiring, It appears the issue must be >> within the array somewhere. I would like to use the ET600 to help track it >> down, but I am reading conflicting information on how to properly undertake >> the test on each string. I know that I can disconnect the conductors >> between each PV string and the junction box and test each jumper wire >> individually while disconnected. But what about the PV module leads >> within the string of connected modules? I'm suspecting a pinched PV module >> lead somewhere, but I don't know where to start looking. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Sun Apr 6 11:47:06 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 08:47:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insulation Resistance Testing with Klein ET600 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tech support said if it’s landed in conjunction with the Load Out ground it causes an ‘echo’ on the grounds. Can result in erroneous Arc fault or other error codes. I think if using a separate wire trough, that trough needs to be physically far from the inverter and close to an electrode. On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 8:09 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > That's a good point. I didn't install this system, but I know for certain > the PV EGC is not landed in either of the dual Sol-Ark inverters. It must > be landed on a grounding terminal in a wiring trough or load center. I'll > have to track that down. I'm not sure how the GE system is installed, > either. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 11:03 AM david quattro > wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> SolArk tech support has told us to land the PV equipment ground >> directly to an electrode. ie do not land the PV ground in the inverter’s >> built in ground-bar. This detail wasn’t in their manuals years ago. I hope >> this is helpful 🤙🏼 >> David >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 7:19 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> If anyone is using this tester to do insulation resistance testing, I >>> would appreciate any pointers you have. >>> >>> I have used it successfully to test home run DC strings from >>> rooftop junction boxes to inverters to check for nicks in wires and hard >>> faults to ground or short circuits. However, I am currently facing a >>> Sol-Ark 15K with three strings of PV that all seem to cause an intermittent >>> DC insulation fault (F24). I have isolated each string by disconnecting the >>> other strings at the rooftop junction box. With only one string connected >>> to the inverter, regardless of which string it is, I will eventually get >>> the F24 error. >>> >>> Since I have ruled out the home run wiring, It appears the issue must be >>> within the array somewhere. I would like to use the ET600 to help track it >>> down, but I am reading conflicting information on how to properly undertake >>> the test on each string. I know that I can disconnect the conductors >>> between each PV string and the junction box and test each jumper wire >>> individually while disconnected. But what about the PV module leads >>> within the string of connected modules? I'm suspecting a pinched PV module >>> lead somewhere, but I don't know where to start looking. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Apr 6 13:35:17 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 13:35:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insulation Resistance Testing with Klein ET600 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I should mention that the other inverter also has three strings and is experiencing no faults. Neither inverter has an EGC landed in it from the array. Jason Szumlanski On Sun, Apr 6, 2025, 11:47 AM david quattro wrote: > Tech support said if it’s landed in conjunction with the Load Out ground > it causes an ‘echo’ on the grounds. Can result in erroneous Arc fault or > other error codes. > I think if using a separate wire trough, that trough needs to be > physically far from the inverter and close to an electrode. > > > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 8:09 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> That's a good point. I didn't install this system, but I know for certain >> the PV EGC is not landed in either of the dual Sol-Ark inverters. It must >> be landed on a grounding terminal in a wiring trough or load center. I'll >> have to track that down. I'm not sure how the GE system is installed, >> either. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 11:03 AM david quattro >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason, >>> SolArk tech support has told us to land the PV equipment ground >>> directly to an electrode. ie do not land the PV ground in the >>> inverter’s built in ground-bar. This detail wasn’t in their manuals years >>> ago. I hope this is helpful 🤙🏼 >>> David >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 7:19 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> If anyone is using this tester to do insulation resistance testing, I >>>> would appreciate any pointers you have. >>>> >>>> I have used it successfully to test home run DC strings from >>>> rooftop junction boxes to inverters to check for nicks in wires and hard >>>> faults to ground or short circuits. However, I am currently facing a >>>> Sol-Ark 15K with three strings of PV that all seem to cause an intermittent >>>> DC insulation fault (F24). I have isolated each string by disconnecting the >>>> other strings at the rooftop junction box. With only one string connected >>>> to the inverter, regardless of which string it is, I will eventually get >>>> the F24 error. >>>> >>>> Since I have ruled out the home run wiring, It appears the issue must >>>> be within the array somewhere. I would like to use the ET600 to help track >>>> it down, but I am reading conflicting information on how to properly >>>> undertake the test on each string. I know that I can disconnect the >>>> conductors between each PV string and the junction box and test each jumper >>>> wire individually while disconnected. But what about the PV module leads >>>> within the string of connected modules? I'm suspecting a pinched PV module >>>> lead somewhere, but I don't know where to start looking. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Sun Apr 6 14:15:40 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 14:15:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insulation Resistance Testing with Klein ET600 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can you swap the strings in each inverter? Then you'll know whether the issue truly lies in the inverter or the array. Cheers, Dave On Sun, Apr 6, 2025, 1:35 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I should mention that the other inverter also has three strings and is > experiencing no faults. Neither inverter has an EGC landed in it from the > array. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2025, 11:47 AM david quattro > wrote: > >> Tech support said if it’s landed in conjunction with the Load Out ground >> it causes an ‘echo’ on the grounds. Can result in erroneous Arc fault or >> other error codes. >> I think if using a separate wire trough, that trough needs to be >> physically far from the inverter and close to an electrode. >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 8:09 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> That's a good point. I didn't install this system, but I know for >>> certain the PV EGC is not landed in either of the dual Sol-Ark inverters. >>> It must be landed on a grounding terminal in a wiring trough or load >>> center. I'll have to track that down. I'm not sure how the GE system is >>> installed, either. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 11:03 AM david quattro >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Jason, >>>> SolArk tech support has told us to land the PV equipment ground >>>> directly to an electrode. ie do not land the PV ground in the >>>> inverter’s built in ground-bar. This detail wasn’t in their manuals years >>>> ago. I hope this is helpful 🤙🏼 >>>> David >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 7:19 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> If anyone is using this tester to do insulation resistance testing, I >>>>> would appreciate any pointers you have. >>>>> >>>>> I have used it successfully to test home run DC strings from >>>>> rooftop junction boxes to inverters to check for nicks in wires and hard >>>>> faults to ground or short circuits. However, I am currently facing a >>>>> Sol-Ark 15K with three strings of PV that all seem to cause an intermittent >>>>> DC insulation fault (F24). I have isolated each string by disconnecting the >>>>> other strings at the rooftop junction box. With only one string connected >>>>> to the inverter, regardless of which string it is, I will eventually get >>>>> the F24 error. >>>>> >>>>> Since I have ruled out the home run wiring, It appears the issue must >>>>> be within the array somewhere. I would like to use the ET600 to help track >>>>> it down, but I am reading conflicting information on how to properly >>>>> undertake the test on each string. I know that I can disconnect the >>>>> conductors between each PV string and the junction box and test each jumper >>>>> wire individually while disconnected. But what about the PV module leads >>>>> within the string of connected modules? I'm suspecting a pinched PV module >>>>> lead somewhere, but I don't know where to start looking. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 16:16:09 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 14:16:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insulation Resistance Testing with Klein ET600 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0C1E399A-5C35-47AB-BFE9-2A3251AA2638@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Apr 6 18:08:39 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 18:08:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insulation Resistance Testing with Klein ET600 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, I considered swapping strings per inverter, but it is a very challenging roof and there is no easy way to disconnect the PV strings to swap them. In these cases I always prefer some sort of PV string disconnect that is easily accessible, but the original installer just ran strings from the roof to junction boxes in ridiculous locations with no additional disconnecting means on to the inverter. On top of that, there is no RSD/PVHCS system (which was required in this case, but the local AHJ is clueless apparently). So I'm dealing with high voltage DC and limited options to isolate conductors and make it safe for testing. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sun, Apr 6, 2025, 2:15 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Can you swap the strings in each inverter? Then you'll know whether the > issue truly lies in the inverter or the array. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2025, 1:35 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I should mention that the other inverter also has three strings and is >> experiencing no faults. Neither inverter has an EGC landed in it from the >> array. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025, 11:47 AM david quattro >> wrote: >> >>> Tech support said if it’s landed in conjunction with the Load Out ground >>> it causes an ‘echo’ on the grounds. Can result in erroneous Arc fault or >>> other error codes. >>> I think if using a separate wire trough, that trough needs to be >>> physically far from the inverter and close to an electrode. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 8:09 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> That's a good point. I didn't install this system, but I know for >>>> certain the PV EGC is not landed in either of the dual Sol-Ark inverters. >>>> It must be landed on a grounding terminal in a wiring trough or load >>>> center. I'll have to track that down. I'm not sure how the GE system is >>>> installed, either. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 11:03 AM david quattro >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Jason, >>>>> SolArk tech support has told us to land the PV equipment ground >>>>> directly to an electrode. ie do not land the PV ground in the >>>>> inverter’s built in ground-bar. This detail wasn’t in their manuals years >>>>> ago. I hope this is helpful 🤙🏼 >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 7:19 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> If anyone is using this tester to do insulation resistance testing, I >>>>>> would appreciate any pointers you have. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have used it successfully to test home run DC strings from >>>>>> rooftop junction boxes to inverters to check for nicks in wires and hard >>>>>> faults to ground or short circuits. However, I am currently facing a >>>>>> Sol-Ark 15K with three strings of PV that all seem to cause an intermittent >>>>>> DC insulation fault (F24). I have isolated each string by disconnecting the >>>>>> other strings at the rooftop junction box. With only one string connected >>>>>> to the inverter, regardless of which string it is, I will eventually get >>>>>> the F24 error. >>>>>> >>>>>> Since I have ruled out the home run wiring, It appears the issue must >>>>>> be within the array somewhere. I would like to use the ET600 to help track >>>>>> it down, but I am reading conflicting information on how to properly >>>>>> undertake the test on each string. I know that I can disconnect the >>>>>> conductors between each PV string and the junction box and test each jumper >>>>>> wire individually while disconnected. But what about the PV module leads >>>>>> within the string of connected modules? I'm suspecting a pinched PV module >>>>>> lead somewhere, but I don't know where to start looking. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Sun Apr 6 19:38:38 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 19:38:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insulation Resistance Testing with Klein ET600 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How quick do the faults take to show up? If you can just wire nut on temporary jumpers while you are on site, you can swap the strings at the inverters. With an ungrounded array, you can touch one hot wire at a time without getting zapped. But put on your gloves to be extra safe. I would not leave things open like that overnight, but if the faults occur within an hour or two, then you can leave it like that very temporarily to troubleshoot. Also, no Jbox on the roof at all? Strange. If there were you can disconnect and swap wires up there, or just disconnect them there and then safely swap them at the inverters. Cheers, Dave On Sun, Apr 6, 2025, 6:08 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Yes, I considered swapping strings per inverter, but it is a very > challenging roof and there is no easy way to disconnect the PV strings to > swap them. In these cases I always prefer some sort of PV string disconnect > that is easily accessible, but the original installer just ran strings from > the roof to junction boxes in ridiculous locations with no additional > disconnecting means on to the inverter. > > On top of that, there is no RSD/PVHCS system (which was required in this > case, but the local AHJ is clueless apparently). So I'm dealing with high > voltage DC and limited options to isolate conductors and make it safe for > testing. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2025, 2:15 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> Can you swap the strings in each inverter? Then you'll know whether the >> issue truly lies in the inverter or the array. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025, 1:35 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I should mention that the other inverter also has three strings and is >>> experiencing no faults. Neither inverter has an EGC landed in it from the >>> array. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025, 11:47 AM david quattro >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Tech support said if it’s landed in conjunction with the Load Out >>>> ground it causes an ‘echo’ on the grounds. Can result in erroneous Arc >>>> fault or other error codes. >>>> I think if using a separate wire trough, that trough needs to be >>>> physically far from the inverter and close to an electrode. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 8:09 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> That's a good point. I didn't install this system, but I know for >>>>> certain the PV EGC is not landed in either of the dual Sol-Ark inverters. >>>>> It must be landed on a grounding terminal in a wiring trough or load >>>>> center. I'll have to track that down. I'm not sure how the GE system is >>>>> installed, either. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 11:03 AM david quattro >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Jason, >>>>>> SolArk tech support has told us to land the PV equipment ground >>>>>> directly to an electrode. ie do not land the PV ground in the >>>>>> inverter’s built in ground-bar. This detail wasn’t in their manuals years >>>>>> ago. I hope this is helpful 🤙🏼 >>>>>> David >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 7:19 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> If anyone is using this tester to do insulation resistance testing, >>>>>>> I would appreciate any pointers you have. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have used it successfully to test home run DC strings from >>>>>>> rooftop junction boxes to inverters to check for nicks in wires and hard >>>>>>> faults to ground or short circuits. However, I am currently facing a >>>>>>> Sol-Ark 15K with three strings of PV that all seem to cause an intermittent >>>>>>> DC insulation fault (F24). I have isolated each string by disconnecting the >>>>>>> other strings at the rooftop junction box. With only one string connected >>>>>>> to the inverter, regardless of which string it is, I will eventually get >>>>>>> the F24 error. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Since I have ruled out the home run wiring, It appears the issue >>>>>>> must be within the array somewhere. I would like to use the ET600 to help >>>>>>> track it down, but I am reading conflicting information on how to properly >>>>>>> undertake the test on each string. I know that I can disconnect the >>>>>>> conductors between each PV string and the junction box and test each jumper >>>>>>> wire individually while disconnected. But what about the PV module leads >>>>>>> within the string of connected modules? I'm suspecting a pinched PV module >>>>>>> lead somewhere, but I don't know where to start looking. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Apr 6 19:45:00 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 19:45:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insulation Resistance Testing with Klein ET600 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are two junction boxes on the roof, but they are very difficult to reach (steep, high, metal, etc.) I should be able to splice them temporarily at the inverters. I'll have to check it out. The faults usually take more than 12 hours to manifest, so it's frustrating to track them down. That's why I was hoping to narrow the scope of the investigation with some insulation tests. Given the wire management mess, I'm strongly suspecting a problem on the roof, not an inverter problem. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sun, Apr 6, 2025, 7:38 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > How quick do the faults take to show up? If you can just wire nut on > temporary jumpers while you are on site, you can swap the strings at the > inverters. With an ungrounded array, you can touch one hot wire at a time > without getting zapped. But put on your gloves to be extra safe. I would > not leave things open like that overnight, but if the faults occur within > an hour or two, then you can leave it like that very temporarily to > troubleshoot. > > Also, no Jbox on the roof at all? Strange. If there were you can > disconnect and swap wires up there, or just disconnect them there and then > safely swap them at the inverters. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2025, 6:08 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Yes, I considered swapping strings per inverter, but it is a very >> challenging roof and there is no easy way to disconnect the PV strings to >> swap them. In these cases I always prefer some sort of PV string disconnect >> that is easily accessible, but the original installer just ran strings from >> the roof to junction boxes in ridiculous locations with no additional >> disconnecting means on to the inverter. >> >> On top of that, there is no RSD/PVHCS system (which was required in this >> case, but the local AHJ is clueless apparently). So I'm dealing with high >> voltage DC and limited options to isolate conductors and make it safe for >> testing. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025, 2:15 PM Dave Tedeyan >> wrote: >> >>> Can you swap the strings in each inverter? Then you'll know whether the >>> issue truly lies in the inverter or the array. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025, 1:35 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I should mention that the other inverter also has three strings and is >>>> experiencing no faults. Neither inverter has an EGC landed in it from the >>>> array. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025, 11:47 AM david quattro >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Tech support said if it’s landed in conjunction with the Load Out >>>>> ground it causes an ‘echo’ on the grounds. Can result in erroneous Arc >>>>> fault or other error codes. >>>>> I think if using a separate wire trough, that trough needs to be >>>>> physically far from the inverter and close to an electrode. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 8:09 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That's a good point. I didn't install this system, but I know for >>>>>> certain the PV EGC is not landed in either of the dual Sol-Ark inverters. >>>>>> It must be landed on a grounding terminal in a wiring trough or load >>>>>> center. I'll have to track that down. I'm not sure how the GE system is >>>>>> installed, either. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 11:03 AM david quattro >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Jason, >>>>>>> SolArk tech support has told us to land the PV equipment ground >>>>>>> directly to an electrode. ie do not land the PV ground in the >>>>>>> inverter’s built in ground-bar. This detail wasn’t in their manuals years >>>>>>> ago. I hope this is helpful 🤙🏼 >>>>>>> David >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 7:19 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If anyone is using this tester to do insulation resistance testing, >>>>>>>> I would appreciate any pointers you have. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have used it successfully to test home run DC strings from >>>>>>>> rooftop junction boxes to inverters to check for nicks in wires and hard >>>>>>>> faults to ground or short circuits. However, I am currently facing a >>>>>>>> Sol-Ark 15K with three strings of PV that all seem to cause an intermittent >>>>>>>> DC insulation fault (F24). I have isolated each string by disconnecting the >>>>>>>> other strings at the rooftop junction box. With only one string connected >>>>>>>> to the inverter, regardless of which string it is, I will eventually get >>>>>>>> the F24 error. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Since I have ruled out the home run wiring, It appears the issue >>>>>>>> must be within the array somewhere. I would like to use the ET600 to help >>>>>>>> track it down, but I am reading conflicting information on how to properly >>>>>>>> undertake the test on each string. I know that I can disconnect the >>>>>>>> conductors between each PV string and the junction box and test each jumper >>>>>>>> wire individually while disconnected. But what about the PV module leads >>>>>>>> within the string of connected modules? I'm suspecting a pinched PV module >>>>>>>> lead somewhere, but I don't know where to start looking. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Apr 7 18:00:01 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2025 22:00:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSL Energy LiFePO tripping out issue Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Has anyone seen this before? I'm dealing with a battery bank that keeps tripping out, opening the K3 contactor, randomly. I can't find any pattern nor cause. Voltage is ok, load ok, temperature ok. It could be during the day under PV charge, or in the evening. The battery bank is paired with a SolArk 15k. Same behavior if it's closed loop or open loop voltage-based control. SolArk tech support said it was not supported in closed loop. GSL tech support has not been useful and refuses to address the issue at hand. This is close but not exact model. https://www.gslenergybattery.com/20kwh-wheel-design-solar-energy-storage-battery--2048kwh-lifepo4--modular--scalable--10-year-warranty--ul-certified I wrote about this same project Dec 2024 was able to recover a frozen and 18 months abandoned deeply discharged battery bank. Capacity wise, they are fine. This site is not continually occupied; I just don't know how to get it to the point where the system is reliable. Tempting to bypass the K3 contactor, as it still would have a secondary one for safety. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Apr 7 18:54:05 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2025 17:54:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSL Energy LiFePO tripping out issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79FF6CDC-B1AA-4D22-B3D3-119AB9AFD90D@mavericksolar.com> What voltages are you using with it for ABS? Are you running open loop? Does the battery pretend to be Pylontech or some other protocol? Maybe the BMS is tripping from high volts, even for a brief period. The spec does say maximum of 56V. Most all other 16S LiFePO4 can go much higher, in theory to: 3.65 max cell voltage = 58.4 3.5 vpc is 56V 3.45 vpc = 55.2V, my favorite sweet spot 3.4 vpc = 54.4 is preferred by a few vendors. Is the Sol-Ark on the internet so you can look at voltage charts? If so, I can look at it if you want/can share it. Absorb time is another story. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Apr 7, 2025, at 5:00 PM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hello Wrenches, > > Has anyone seen this before? I’m dealing with a battery bank that keeps tripping out, opening the K3 contactor, randomly. I can’t find any pattern nor cause. Voltage is ok, load ok, temperature ok. It could be during the day under PV charge, or in the evening. The battery bank is paired with a SolArk 15k. Same behavior if it’s closed loop or open loop voltage-based control. SolArk tech support said it was not supported in closed loop. GSL tech support has not been useful and refuses to address the issue at hand. > > This is close but not exact model. > https://www.gslenergybattery.com/20kwh-wheel-design-solar-energy-storage-battery--2048kwh-lifepo4--modular--scalable--10-year-warranty--ul-certified > > I wrote about this same project Dec 2024 was able to recover a frozen and 18 months abandoned deeply discharged battery bank. Capacity wise, they are fine. This site is not continually occupied; I just don’t know how to get it to the point where the system is reliable. Tempting to bypass the K3 contactor, as it still would have a secondary one for safety. > > Kevin Pegg > EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. > 37471 Hwy 16 E > Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Apr 7 23:25:42 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2025 21:25:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSL Energy LiFePO tripping out issue In-Reply-To: <79FF6CDC-B1AA-4D22-B3D3-119AB9AFD90D@mavericksolar.com> References: <79FF6CDC-B1AA-4D22-B3D3-119AB9AFD90D@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: I'd look for weak/loose internal control circuitry, especially connected to the K3 contractor or it's drive coil. Grab, pull, twist all connectors and see if the relay responds. Good luck 🤞 On Mon, Apr 7, 2025, 4:54 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > What voltages are you using with it for ABS? Are you running open loop? > Does the battery pretend to be Pylontech or some other protocol? > > Maybe the BMS is tripping from high volts, even for a brief period. > > The spec does say maximum of 56V. > > Most all other 16S LiFePO4 can go much higher, in theory to: > > 3.65 max cell voltage = 58.4 > 3.5 vpc is 56V > 3.45 vpc = 55.2V, my favorite sweet spot > 3.4 vpc = 54.4 is preferred by a few vendors. > > Is the Sol-Ark on the internet so you can look at voltage charts? If so, I > can look at it if you want/can share it. > > > Absorb time is another story. > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Apr 7, 2025, at 5:00 PM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > Has anyone seen this before? I’m dealing with a battery bank that keeps > tripping out, opening the K3 contactor, randomly. I can’t find any pattern > nor cause. Voltage is ok, load ok, temperature ok. It could be during the > day under PV charge, or in the evening. The battery bank is paired with a > SolArk 15k. Same behavior if it’s closed loop or open loop voltage-based > control. SolArk tech support said it was not supported in closed loop. GSL > tech support has not been useful and refuses to address the issue at hand. > > > > This is close but not exact model. > > > https://www.gslenergybattery.com/20kwh-wheel-design-solar-energy-storage-battery--2048kwh-lifepo4--modular--scalable--10-year-warranty--ul-certified > > > > I wrote about this same project Dec 2024 was able to recover a frozen and > 18 months abandoned deeply discharged battery bank. Capacity wise, they are > fine. This site is not continually occupied; I just don’t know how to get > it to the point where the system is reliable. Tempting to bypass the K3 > contactor, as it still would have a secondary one for safety. > > > > Kevin Pegg > > EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. > > 37471 Hwy 16 > E > > Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Apr 8 08:48:32 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2025 12:48:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSL Energy LiFePO tripping out issue In-Reply-To: References: <79FF6CDC-B1AA-4D22-B3D3-119AB9AFD90D@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <722B6BFF-4401-4BF0-A2A7-DFC25008A629@solarwork.com> I once was at an installation by others doing a T/S with a single OB Radian & 2 - FM 100s that worked & then did not work. In removing the front door the FM 100 s Woke up briefly & then off as I was tracing wires it happened again. I tapped/ knocked on the GS box & the FMs briefly woke up agin & turned off. At the same time I heard a slight “dizzith” crackle or a short arc sound. The sound was so quiet if anything had been running ie: fans etc I wouldn’t have heard it. Started to do a wire tug test carefully & discovered that both of the negative wire terminals had not been tightened down for the battery negative conductors at the shunt terminals. Good case for having taped the shaft on your long screw driver to get to the back of the GS box with the AC - DC breaker bar held to the left while Working hot. Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 On Apr 7, 2025, at 9:27 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:  I'd look for weak/loose internal control circuitry, especially connected to the K3 contractor or it's drive coil. Grab, pull, twist all connectors and see if the relay responds. Good luck 🤞 On Mon, Apr 7, 2025, 4:54 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: What voltages are you using with it for ABS? Are you running open loop? Does the battery pretend to be Pylontech or some other protocol? Maybe the BMS is tripping from high volts, even for a brief period. The spec does say maximum of 56V. Most all other 16S LiFePO4 can go much higher, in theory to: 3.65 max cell voltage = 58.4 3.5 vpc is 56V 3.45 vpc = 55.2V, my favorite sweet spot 3.4 vpc = 54.4 is preferred by a few vendors. Is the Sol-Ark on the internet so you can look at voltage charts? If so, I can look at it if you want/can share it. Absorb time is another story. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On Apr 7, 2025, at 5:00 PM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Hello Wrenches, Has anyone seen this before? I’m dealing with a battery bank that keeps tripping out, opening the K3 contactor, randomly. I can’t find any pattern nor cause. Voltage is ok, load ok, temperature ok. It could be during the day under PV charge, or in the evening. The battery bank is paired with a SolArk 15k. Same behavior if it’s closed loop or open loop voltage-based control. SolArk tech support said it was not supported in closed loop. GSL tech support has not been useful and refuses to address the issue at hand. This is close but not exact model. https://www.gslenergybattery.com/20kwh-wheel-design-solar-energy-storage-battery--2048kwh-lifepo4--modular--scalable--10-year-warranty--ul-certified I wrote about this same project Dec 2024 was able to recover a frozen and 18 months abandoned deeply discharged battery bank. Capacity wise, they are fine. This site is not continually occupied; I just don’t know how to get it to the point where the system is reliable. Tempting to bypass the K3 contactor, as it still would have a secondary one for safety. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 09:29:31 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2025 07:29:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSL Energy LiFePO tripping out issue In-Reply-To: <722B6BFF-4401-4BF0-A2A7-DFC25008A629@solarwork.com> References: <722B6BFF-4401-4BF0-A2A7-DFC25008A629@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <1D0CB638-DB64-44D6-9E19-4809E76DC963@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 09:43:47 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2025 07:43:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSL Energy LiFePO tripping out issue In-Reply-To: <1D0CB638-DB64-44D6-9E19-4809E76DC963@gmail.com> References: <722B6BFF-4401-4BF0-A2A7-DFC25008A629@solarwork.com> <1D0CB638-DB64-44D6-9E19-4809E76DC963@gmail.com> Message-ID: I once had a Fortress eVault misbehaving. I found that one of the little tiny crimps in the Molex-like connectors was not made correctly. When I would tug at certain angles it would trip the relay. I was able to do a field repair. Another thing that maybe the manufacturer can help with is downloading history from the BMS. Given the history of the installation, the BMS may be doing its job. If there is no indication that it sent the signal to trip out (maybe you have certain dates that you can zoom in on), then I'd look for component/control wiring failures. Good luck and let us know! On Tue, Apr 8, 2025 at 7:30 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > If I understand it correctly, the K3 relay is being powered into the off > mode indicating it’s a BMS issue as it’s getting power to do that. > And since it appears to happen either while charging or under load, which > should eliminate high volt issues, again it seems like a BMS problem. > How to deal with it if the company is telling you to pound sand? > The options are to modify it, or replace it with another brand Bms or > replace the whole battery. > > When you factor in your time/money and need for reliability vs how > inexpensive these batteries, I think it’ll point to the solution. > > Jay > > > > On Apr 8, 2025, at 6:49 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  I once was at an installation by others doing a T/S with a single OB > Radian & 2 - FM 100s that worked & then did not work. In removing the front > door the FM 100 s Woke up briefly & then off as I was tracing wires it > happened again. I tapped/ knocked on the GS box & the FMs briefly woke up > agin & turned off. At the same time I heard a slight “dizzith” crackle or a > short arc sound. The sound was so quiet if anything had been running ie: > fans etc I wouldn’t have heard it. > Started to do a wire tug test carefully & discovered that both of the > negative wire terminals had not been tightened down for the battery > negative conductors at the shunt terminals. Good case for having taped the > shaft on your long screw driver to get to the back of the GS box with the > AC - DC breaker bar held to the left while Working hot. > > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > > On Apr 7, 2025, at 9:27 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I'd look for weak/loose internal control circuitry, especially connected > to the K3 contractor or it's drive coil. Grab, pull, twist all connectors > and see if the relay responds. > > Good luck 🤞 > > On Mon, Apr 7, 2025, 4:54 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> What voltages are you using with it for ABS? Are you running open loop? >> Does the battery pretend to be Pylontech or some other protocol? >> >> Maybe the BMS is tripping from high volts, even for a brief period. >> >> The spec does say maximum of 56V. >> >> Most all other 16S LiFePO4 can go much higher, in theory to: >> >> 3.65 max cell voltage = 58.4 >> 3.5 vpc is 56V >> 3.45 vpc = 55.2V, my favorite sweet spot >> 3.4 vpc = 54.4 is preferred by a few vendors. >> >> Is the Sol-Ark on the internet so you can look at voltage charts? If so, >> I can look at it if you want/can share it. >> >> >> Absorb time is another story. >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >> On Apr 7, 2025, at 5:00 PM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> >> >> Has anyone seen this before? I’m dealing with a battery bank that keeps >> tripping out, opening the K3 contactor, randomly. I can’t find any pattern >> nor cause. Voltage is ok, load ok, temperature ok. It could be during the >> day under PV charge, or in the evening. The battery bank is paired with a >> SolArk 15k. Same behavior if it’s closed loop or open loop voltage-based >> control. SolArk tech support said it was not supported in closed loop. GSL >> tech support has not been useful and refuses to address the issue at hand. >> >> >> >> This is close but not exact model. >> >> >> https://www.gslenergybattery.com/20kwh-wheel-design-solar-energy-storage-battery--2048kwh-lifepo4--modular--scalable--10-year-warranty--ul-certified >> >> >> >> I wrote about this same project Dec 2024 was able to recover a frozen and >> 18 months abandoned deeply discharged battery bank. Capacity wise, they are >> fine. This site is not continually occupied; I just don’t know how to get >> it to the point where the system is reliable. Tempting to bypass the K3 >> contactor, as it still would have a secondary one for safety. >> >> >> >> Kevin Pegg >> >> EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. >> >> 37471 Hwy 16 >> E >> >> Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Apr 8 12:22:13 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2025 09:22:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEM3 inverter quest/CT distance In-Reply-To: References: <335e23cd69a36f76771d996700aa50aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Friends: The Soul-Arc inverter will also meet this requirement. Does anyone know how long I can make the CT leads? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 12:11 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi William - > > I know you're not a fan of Tesla, you so you might want to check out > FranklinWH (which is basically like a supercharged Powerwall 2 system): > > https://www.franklinwh.com/products/apower2-home-battery-backup/ > > or Enphase: > https://enphase.com/store/storage/gen3/iq-battery-5p?srsltid=AfmBOoojCQ36cLiuTk7Egp47myyWpz834SsfiKw3fA_hp3B2__lhSbc0 > > Enphase would require you to have microinverters for your PV whereas > Franklin should be able to AC-couple to your existing PV inverter. Enphase > is releasing their IQ Meter Collar adapter in the coming months: > https://enphase.com/download/iq-meter-collar-data-sheet?srsltid=AfmBOopomsOkyikV7VatWtysBPHBp4UqW-uh_jSaZJx7HQxP0KgZwLGo > > This meter collar product is a total game changer - Tesla has had a meter > collar adapter for the last year or more and it has probably reduced our > labor by about half to provide whole-home backup. I understand that > FranklinWh expects to have a meter collar coming in Q2 of this year. > > Best, > > August > > > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 12:03 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> Now that I am on NEM3 I need to consider a battery system to capture >> daytime energy production and use it to self-power at night. I am new to >> this concept so I apologize for newbie questions. >> >> >> >> It will not be easy for me to install a critical-loads sub-panel and I am >> not looking for outage protection. Therefore I think my only AC connection >> to the inverter would be to the input. >> >> >> >> My shop has a 100 amp feeder and 8 Kw of PV on it. (There is 2.5 Kw of >> PV on the house). The shop would be an ideal place to put an inverter and >> battery bank. >> >> >> >> · I would like to charge batteries exclusively from solar and >> only feed excess PV production back to the grid. >> >> · I would like to sell from batteries into my home distribution >> but only to meet the use on my premises. I assume CTs on the utility >> feeder would regulate this sell rate. >> >> >> >> Is there an inverter that will do this? I have not found the proper >> search terms to give me usable answers. I’ve been reading manuals from >> many different manufacturers but manuals seem to have become very vague as >> of late. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Apr 9 13:04:40 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2025 13:04:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian - Mate 3 incorrect high voltage reading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For a followup, it appears that the problem was in a ribbon cable connection. After checking the power wiring and starting the inverter again, the problem still remained. Then, I disconnected and reconnected the ribbon cables at both ends. On restart, the voltage was with 6 V of the multi meter reading. I adjusted this out with the offset in the calibration menu. The voltage has read steady for a day now. Thank you! Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH Electrical Contractor License 44810 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional 740-856-9648 --- On 2025-04-06 09:25, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Also look for loose connections and corrosion. If it tries to push > current and the voltage rapidly rises, it can indicate resistance > somewhere. > > Good luck! > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 7:20 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Maybe the Calibrate setting got changed somehow. > > OpticsRE: Device Map, Inverter, Calibrate. > > From the Mate: Lock, 141, Settings, Inverter, Calibrate. > > Make sure the settings are Zero offset or at least appropriate. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > * Solar Commander Remote Power > * SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > On Apr 5, 2025, at 1:22 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > A Radian 4048 disconnected from the grid with a high grid voltage error > showing on the Mate 3. The Mate 3 was displaying a voltage of 279 - 280 > V. The Mate 3 was replaced with another Mate 3, and the high voltage > reading remained. > > When the voltage was checked with two separate multi meters, the > readings came out to 249 - 250 V. I believe that the 249 - 250 volt > reading is correct. > > The incorrect, high voltage reading seems to be coming for the > inverter, not the Mate 3, since two Mates were used. > > Has anyone experienced this? > > What could be the cause and solution to the problem? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH Electrical Contractor License 44810 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional > 740-856-9648 > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 13:11:07 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2025 10:11:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian - Mate 3 incorrect high voltage reading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Regarding inaccurate voltage, now that you have cycled the connections at the ribbons, you may want to very closely inspect the boards as cracked solder joints can be temporarily corrected by just touching the ribbons, your phone camera can get real close and zoom in to look at each solder joint and verify a good connection, Fun times to all On Wed, Apr 9, 2025, 10:04 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > For a followup, it appears that the problem was in a ribbon cable > connection. After checking the power wiring and starting the inverter > again, the problem still remained. > > Then, I disconnected and reconnected the ribbon cables at both ends. On > restart, the voltage was with 6 V of the multi meter reading. I adjusted > this out with the offset in the calibration menu. The voltage has read > steady for a day now. > > Thank you! > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLCOH Electrical Contractor License 44810NABCEP Certified > Solar PV Installation Professional740-856-9648* > --- > > > > On 2025-04-06 09:25, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Also look for loose connections and corrosion. If it tries to push > current and the voltage rapidly rises, it can indicate resistance > somewhere. > > Good luck! > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 7:20 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Maybe the Calibrate setting got changed somehow. > > OpticsRE: Device Map, Inverter, Calibrate. > > From the Mate: Lock, 141, Settings, Inverter, Calibrate. > > Make sure the settings are Zero offset or at least appropriate. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Apr 5, 2025, at 1:22 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > A Radian 4048 disconnected from the grid with a high grid voltage error > showing on the Mate 3. The Mate 3 was displaying a voltage of 279 - 280 V. > The Mate 3 was replaced with another Mate 3, and the high voltage reading > remained. > When the voltage was checked with two separate multi meters, the readings > came out to 249 - 250 V. I believe that the 249 - 250 volt reading is > correct. > > The incorrect, high voltage reading seems to be coming for the inverter, > not the Mate 3, since two Mates were used. > > Has anyone experienced this? > > What could be the cause and solution to the problem? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLCOH Electrical Contractor License 44810NABCEP Certified > Solar PV Installation Professional740-856-9648* > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nathanjstumpff at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 19:31:20 2025 From: nathanjstumpff at gmail.com (Nathan J. Stumpff) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2025 16:31:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Future low Vmp Message-ID: Hi wrenches, I used to do these kind of calcs all the time but am wicked rusty. What assumptions do you use for future (degraded) hot temp Vmp of a PV string to check if you will still be able to operate inside a given MPPT range? Specifically interested in assumed yearly degradation to Vmp, assumed actual operating cell temp, and if it is appropriate to use STC value as the starting point and if not what would be better (NOCT?) Thanks, -Nathan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Thu Apr 10 21:46:19 2025 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2025 18:46:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Future low Vmp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <082be78e-fbae-4ece-a0b5-6fb0a567b57e@coveoregon.com> Nathan, In the NREL report Photovoltaic Degradation Rates — An Analytical Review by Dirk C. Jordan and Sarah R. Kurtz the conclusion is that the 0.5% or so annual degradation of PV module output is mostly due to changes in PV module current. Other studies have come to the same conclusion. So, long term changes in voltage might not be worth worrying about. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 4/10/2025 4:31 PM, Nathan J. Stumpff via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi wrenches, > > I used to do these kind of calcs all the time but am wicked rusty. > What assumptions do you use for future (degraded) hot temp Vmp of a PV > string to check if you will still be able to operate inside a given > MPPT range? Specifically interested in assumed yearly degradation to > Vmp, assumed actual operating cell temp, and if it is appropriate to > use STC value as the starting point and if not what would be better > (NOCT?) > > Thanks, > -Nathan > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Fri Apr 11 10:06:55 2025 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2025 10:06:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String fuse blown Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I have a bit of a puzzler that I’m trying to get sorted out. I’ve been servicing a Grid-Tied Battery Backup system that’s about 17-18 years old. The system comprises of 2-GVFX3648s in series, with 2-MX60(at least I think they are 60s) CC’s. Each CC has 3 strings of 3 tied to it, and each string has a 15A in-line 600V fuse. The modules are I believe are like 230/240Watt 60 cell modules (sorry I don’t have pictures/specifics). We replaced the flooded batteries with AGMs about a year and a half ago. The situation is one of the 15A string fuses keeps blowing. It’s now happened 3 times and its the same fuse every time. First we just replaced the fuse and under the surge/lightning assumption. Fuse blew again. Then I thought I found the culprit. The #6 PV output from the combiner to the PV input breaker for the CC was a bit darkened and very warm to the touch when I replaced the fuse the first time. So I though maybe it was a loose connection on that lug and that caused everything to heat up and eventually blow the fuse. I cut and stripped the wire back and cleaned the lug and re-seated the wire in the lug. Fuse blew again within a few months time. I then checked the Junction box on the roof where the USE-2 wire connects to THHN, and did a visual inspection of all the wiring on the roof. All of the Jbox connections and everything on the roof “looked” ok. I have also check all of the connections inside the Outback DC load center, and they look ok. Fuse replaced 3rd time and then it blew again. Before I take all of the panels off the rack, check panels, re-check string wiring on the roof, is there anything else I should be checking? Seems like that warm wire in the Combiner box is telling me something but I can’t figure out what...I believe this is a new problem in the last 2-3 years but we are not 100% sure when the problem first came up… As always, thanks for your help/ suggestions! Amos Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 11 10:39:06 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2025 08:39:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String fuse blown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0E59ACB2-CB54-4D0D-9E2C-B22C8EC2BC15@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 11 11:05:18 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2025 09:05:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String fuse blown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Amos, Have you checked for voltage imbalance for each string? If you have a bad diode, that string may run low on voltage and be trying to send current toward the weak string (this is the reason you have these breakers). I'd run each string independently and see what Vmp is. If you are missing some voltage that may be a clue. You can also independently clamp each string during operation. I like IR cameras for this type of thing. It may just be a bad connection, heat build up, fuse holder issue. Let us know what you find out On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:07 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I have a bit of a puzzler that I’m trying to get sorted out. I’ve been > servicing a Grid-Tied Battery Backup system that’s about 17-18 years old. > The system comprises of 2-GVFX3648s in series, with 2-MX60(at least I think > they are 60s) CC’s. Each CC has 3 strings of 3 tied to it, and each string > has a 15A in-line 600V fuse. The modules are I believe are like > 230/240Watt 60 cell modules (sorry I don’t have pictures/specifics). We > replaced the flooded batteries with AGMs about a year and a half ago. > > The situation is one of the 15A string fuses keeps blowing. It’s now > happened 3 times and its the same fuse every time. First we just replaced > the fuse and under the surge/lightning assumption. Fuse blew again. Then > I thought I found the culprit. The #6 PV output from the combiner to the > PV input breaker for the CC was a bit darkened and very warm to the touch > when I replaced the fuse the first time. So I though maybe it was a loose > connection on that lug and that caused everything to heat up and eventually > blow the fuse. I cut and stripped the wire back and cleaned the lug and > re-seated the wire in the lug. Fuse blew again within a few months time. > I then checked the Junction box on the roof where the USE-2 wire connects > to THHN, and did a visual inspection of all the wiring on the roof. All of > the Jbox connections and everything on the roof “looked” ok. I have also > check all of the connections inside the Outback DC load center, and they > look ok. Fuse replaced 3rd time and then it blew again. > > Before I take all of the panels off the rack, check panels, re-check > string wiring on the roof, is there anything else I should be checking? > Seems like that warm wire in the Combiner box is telling me something but I > can’t figure out what...I believe this is a new problem in the last 2-3 > years but we are not 100% sure when the problem first came up… > > As always, thanks for your help/ suggestions! > Amos > > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Apr 11 15:48:02 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2025 12:48:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String fuse blown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One time I had similar, but different problem: 1 Amp ground fault fuse consistently blowing, sometimes after 1 day sometimes after weeks/months. I tried everything - replaced home runs, checked VOC, VMP, swapped DC input into a different inverter, etc. it kept coming back to this one string. I checked every module VOC, ISC, every connection, no pinched wires, no discernible problem, but fuse blowing. Luckily it was a medium size commercial job (on a fire station) so I was able to scatter all the modules of this suspect string all over the roof, and carefully track where I had put them. That’s when the problem went away and never came back..😂 Best I could figure was a slight manufacturing error that had a compounding/cumulative effect. So once I got those consecutive serial numbers away from each other no more problem. Either that or the fire chief was fucking with me and he was burning out the fuses, which I doubt On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:05 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Amos, > > Have you checked for voltage imbalance for each string? If you have a bad > diode, that string may run low on voltage and be trying to send current > toward the weak string (this is the reason you have these breakers). I'd > run each string independently and see what Vmp is. If you are missing some > voltage that may be a clue. You can also independently clamp each string > during operation. > > I like IR cameras for this type of thing. It may just be a bad > connection, heat build up, fuse holder issue. > > Let us know what you find out > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:07 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> I have a bit of a puzzler that I’m trying to get sorted out. I’ve been >> servicing a Grid-Tied Battery Backup system that’s about 17-18 years old. >> The system comprises of 2-GVFX3648s in series, with 2-MX60(at least I think >> they are 60s) CC’s. Each CC has 3 strings of 3 tied to it, and each string >> has a 15A in-line 600V fuse. The modules are I believe are like >> 230/240Watt 60 cell modules (sorry I don’t have pictures/specifics). We >> replaced the flooded batteries with AGMs about a year and a half ago. >> >> The situation is one of the 15A string fuses keeps blowing. It’s now >> happened 3 times and its the same fuse every time. First we just replaced >> the fuse and under the surge/lightning assumption. Fuse blew again. Then >> I thought I found the culprit. The #6 PV output from the combiner to the >> PV input breaker for the CC was a bit darkened and very warm to the touch >> when I replaced the fuse the first time. So I though maybe it was a loose >> connection on that lug and that caused everything to heat up and eventually >> blow the fuse. I cut and stripped the wire back and cleaned the lug and >> re-seated the wire in the lug. Fuse blew again within a few months time. >> I then checked the Junction box on the roof where the USE-2 wire connects >> to THHN, and did a visual inspection of all the wiring on the roof. All of >> the Jbox connections and everything on the roof “looked” ok. I have also >> check all of the connections inside the Outback DC load center, and they >> look ok. Fuse replaced 3rd time and then it blew again. >> >> Before I take all of the panels off the rack, check panels, re-check >> string wiring on the roof, is there anything else I should be checking? >> Seems like that warm wire in the Combiner box is telling me something but I >> can’t figure out what...I believe this is a new problem in the last 2-3 >> years but we are not 100% sure when the problem first came up… >> >> As always, thanks for your help/ suggestions! >> Amos >> >> >> >> >> Amos Post >> Integrity Energy >> W 802.763.7023 >> C 802.291.2188 >> ienergyVT.com >> Facebook >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Apr 11 16:07:17 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2025 13:07:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String fuse blown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Amos, blowing of a 15 amp fuse is not a ghost in the machine, it is an actual issue no way around it, shorted modules, shorted diodes, in most cases it's a home run, way back when USE-2 white wure was failing and would crack and break off mostly this would result in a GFI trip. The fuse is blowing because of over current and a single string of your vintage will max out at far less than 10 amps but the other two strings will back feed this fuse with close to 20 then pop. Sharp had module failures resulting in cell shorts, look very close there. I have inspected arrays with extreme exposure differences, this will effect performance but should not pop a fuse. Do you have a module string curve tester, this very well may show an issue of the string but eyes on the array is required to located the cause. I have seen nails through wires, conduit, racking in contact with the back of the module but this will trip the GFI breaker not the string fuse. Fun times. On Fri, Apr 11, 2025, 12:49 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > One time I had similar, but different problem: 1 Amp ground fault fuse > consistently blowing, sometimes after 1 day sometimes after weeks/months. > I tried everything - replaced home runs, checked VOC, VMP, swapped DC input > into a different inverter, etc. it kept coming back to this one string. I > checked every module VOC, ISC, every connection, no pinched wires, no > discernible problem, but fuse blowing. > Luckily it was a medium size commercial job (on a fire station) so I > was able to scatter all the modules of this suspect string all over the > roof, and carefully track where I had put them. That’s when the problem > went away and never came back..😂 > Best I could figure was a slight manufacturing error that had a > compounding/cumulative effect. So once I got those consecutive serial > numbers away from each other no more problem. Either that or the fire chief > was fucking with me and he was burning out the fuses, which I doubt > > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:05 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello Amos, >> >> Have you checked for voltage imbalance for each string? If you have a >> bad diode, that string may run low on voltage and be trying to send current >> toward the weak string (this is the reason you have these breakers). I'd >> run each string independently and see what Vmp is. If you are missing some >> voltage that may be a clue. You can also independently clamp each string >> during operation. >> >> I like IR cameras for this type of thing. It may just be a bad >> connection, heat build up, fuse holder issue. >> >> Let us know what you find out >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:07 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> I have a bit of a puzzler that I’m trying to get sorted out. I’ve been >>> servicing a Grid-Tied Battery Backup system that’s about 17-18 years old. >>> The system comprises of 2-GVFX3648s in series, with 2-MX60(at least I think >>> they are 60s) CC’s. Each CC has 3 strings of 3 tied to it, and each string >>> has a 15A in-line 600V fuse. The modules are I believe are like >>> 230/240Watt 60 cell modules (sorry I don’t have pictures/specifics). We >>> replaced the flooded batteries with AGMs about a year and a half ago. >>> >>> The situation is one of the 15A string fuses keeps blowing. It’s now >>> happened 3 times and its the same fuse every time. First we just replaced >>> the fuse and under the surge/lightning assumption. Fuse blew again. Then >>> I thought I found the culprit. The #6 PV output from the combiner to the >>> PV input breaker for the CC was a bit darkened and very warm to the touch >>> when I replaced the fuse the first time. So I though maybe it was a loose >>> connection on that lug and that caused everything to heat up and eventually >>> blow the fuse. I cut and stripped the wire back and cleaned the lug and >>> re-seated the wire in the lug. Fuse blew again within a few months time. >>> I then checked the Junction box on the roof where the USE-2 wire connects >>> to THHN, and did a visual inspection of all the wiring on the roof. All of >>> the Jbox connections and everything on the roof “looked” ok. I have also >>> check all of the connections inside the Outback DC load center, and they >>> look ok. Fuse replaced 3rd time and then it blew again. >>> >>> Before I take all of the panels off the rack, check panels, re-check >>> string wiring on the roof, is there anything else I should be checking? >>> Seems like that warm wire in the Combiner box is telling me something but I >>> can’t figure out what...I believe this is a new problem in the last 2-3 >>> years but we are not 100% sure when the problem first came up… >>> >>> As always, thanks for your help/ suggestions! >>> Amos >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Amos Post >>> Integrity Energy >>> W 802.763.7023 >>> C 802.291.2188 >>> ienergyVT.com >>> Facebook >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From windydankoff at mac.com Mon Apr 14 10:48:55 2025 From: windydankoff at mac.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2025 08:48:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tech support for Heart Transverter Message-ID: Wrenches, I met a fellow who owns two "Heart Transverter" units. I am writing on his behalf, and will forward replies to him. Does anyone have operating / support knowledge on Heart Transverters? I have two units I bought years ago and would like to hook up. I'm not sure if I have the latest documentation. Apparently there were also several hardware revisions. The company is out of business, not responding to emails. Am looking for resources. Thanks for any info about Heart Transverter S.A. -- Tom Kessler / via Windy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcrawford at crawfordandassociates.com Mon Apr 14 16:14:09 2025 From: jcrawford at crawfordandassociates.com (Jennifer Crawford) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2025 20:14:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Engineered Solution to 705.12 Message-ID: Has anyone actually seen an engineer-supervised design for a busbar with multiple power sources & loads? I'm looking at 705.12-B-6, or similar depending on which code cycle we're talking about. What specifically were they checking, and did they reference any particular IEEE standard or other reference as the basis of their approval? Regards, Jen Crawford, PE (NY, MA, TX, WV, VA, ME, MD) President [cid:3962b4ef-fef4-4166-b02c-f363225d5bce] C&A is a certified Woman-Owned Small Business (SBA-WOSB, NYS-WBE, NYS-DBE) 1 Hudson City Centre; Suite 300 Hudson, New York 12534 Office: (518) 828-2700 ext. 1128 www.crawfordandassociates.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-wqen3nyb.png Type: image/png Size: 14895 bytes Desc: Outlook-wqen3nyb.png URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Mon Apr 14 16:48:35 2025 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2025 13:48:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Engineered Solution to 705.12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, basically just verifying that the loads will not exceed the busbar rating, with some safety factor/cushion based on judgement and available data. For example, in a controlled industrial situation with years worth of 15-minute demand data showing consistent demand, a relatively small cushion. Blake On Mon, Apr 14, 2025, 1:14 PM Jennifer Crawford via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Has anyone actually seen an engineer-supervised design for a busbar with > multiple power sources & loads? I'm looking at 705.12-B-6, or similar > depending on which code cycle we're talking about. What specifically were > they checking, and did they reference any particular IEEE standard or other > reference as the basis of their approval? > > Regards, > > > > Jen Crawford, PE (NY, MA, TX, WV, VA, ME, MD) > > *President* > > > > *C&A is a certified Woman-Owned Small Business* > > *(SBA-WOSB, NYS-WBE, NYS-DBE)* > > > > 1 Hudson City Centre; Suite 300 > > Hudson, New York 12534 > > Office: (518) 828-2700 ext. 1128 > > *www.crawfordandassociates.com * > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-wqen3nyb.png Type: image/png Size: 14895 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Apr 14 18:16:03 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2025 15:16:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Engineered Solution to 705.12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think Storm Copper offered engineering, consultation and some on-line tutorials. Maybe one of these resources will help. They may have changed the company name so don’t be surprised by that. Let us know what you learn. Bus bars are becoming more prevalent these days. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Mon, Apr 14, 2025 at 1:14 PM Jennifer Crawford via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Has anyone actually seen an engineer-supervised design for a busbar with > multiple power sources & loads? I'm looking at 705.12-B-6, or similar > depending on which code cycle we're talking about. What specifically were > they checking, and did they reference any particular IEEE standard or other > reference as the basis of their approval? > > Regards, > > > > Jen Crawford, PE (NY, MA, TX, WV, VA, ME, MD) > > *President* > > > > *C&A is a certified Woman-Owned Small Business* > > *(SBA-WOSB, NYS-WBE, NYS-DBE)* > > > > 1 Hudson City Centre; Suite 300 > > Hudson, New York 12534 > > Office: (518) 828-2700 ext. 1128 > > *www.crawfordandassociates.com * > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-wqen3nyb.png Type: image/png Size: 14895 bytes Desc: not available URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 08:40:41 2025 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2025 08:40:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String fuse blown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, I decided to start with the simple stuff. While I don’t have a string curve tester (I should have one), yesterday I tested strings 1,2,3 individually under load. String 3 is the one that’s been blowing the fuse. I did not test strings 4-6 which are on a separate charge controller and combiner. Here are the results: String 1- 7.1A at 76V String 2- 7.77Aat 79V String 3-7.13A at 78.3V I did notice that the second charge controller with strings 4-6 was running about 100watts more (1800w vs 1700w). The conditions were clear blue skies. I replaced the fuse holder and fuse. If it blows again I’ll try switching strings to see if it follows… Thanks for your feedback and I’ll keep ya’ll posted. Amos Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook > On Apr 11, 2025, at 4:07 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches, Amos, blowing of a 15 amp fuse is not a ghost in the machine, it is an actual issue no way around it, shorted modules, shorted diodes, in most cases it's a home run, way back when USE-2 white wure was failing and would crack and break off mostly this would result in a GFI trip. The fuse is blowing because of over current and a single string of your vintage will max out at far less than 10 amps but the other two strings will back feed this fuse with close to 20 then pop. > Sharp had module failures resulting in cell shorts, look very close there. I have inspected arrays with extreme exposure differences, this will effect performance but should not pop a fuse. Do you have a module string curve tester, this very well may show an issue of the string but eyes on the array is required to located the cause. > I have seen nails through wires, conduit, racking in contact with the back of the module but this will trip the GFI breaker not the string fuse. > Fun times. > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2025, 12:49 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: > One time I had similar, but different problem: 1 Amp ground fault fuse consistently blowing, sometimes after 1 day sometimes after weeks/months. I tried everything - replaced home runs, checked VOC, VMP, swapped DC input into a different inverter, etc. it kept coming back to this one string. I checked every module VOC, ISC, every connection, no pinched wires, no discernible problem, but fuse blowing. > Luckily it was a medium size commercial job (on a fire station) so I was able to scatter all the modules of this suspect string all over the roof, and carefully track where I had put them. That’s when the problem went away and never came back..😂 > Best I could figure was a slight manufacturing error that had a compounding/cumulative effect. So once I got those consecutive serial numbers away from each other no more problem. Either that or the fire chief was fucking with me and he was burning out the fuses, which I doubt > > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:05 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Hello Amos, > > Have you checked for voltage imbalance for each string? If you have a bad diode, that string may run low on voltage and be trying to send current toward the weak string (this is the reason you have these breakers). I'd run each string independently and see what Vmp is. If you are missing some voltage that may be a clue. You can also independently clamp each string during operation. > > I like IR cameras for this type of thing. It may just be a bad connection, heat build up, fuse holder issue. > > Let us know what you find out > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:07 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I have a bit of a puzzler that I’m trying to get sorted out. I’ve been servicing a Grid-Tied Battery Backup system that’s about 17-18 years old. The system comprises of 2-GVFX3648s in series, with 2-MX60(at least I think they are 60s) CC’s. Each CC has 3 strings of 3 tied to it, and each string has a 15A in-line 600V fuse. The modules are I believe are like 230/240Watt 60 cell modules (sorry I don’t have pictures/specifics). We replaced the flooded batteries with AGMs about a year and a half ago. > > The situation is one of the 15A string fuses keeps blowing. It’s now happened 3 times and its the same fuse every time. First we just replaced the fuse and under the surge/lightning assumption. Fuse blew again. Then I thought I found the culprit. The #6 PV output from the combiner to the PV input breaker for the CC was a bit darkened and very warm to the touch when I replaced the fuse the first time. So I though maybe it was a loose connection on that lug and that caused everything to heat up and eventually blow the fuse. I cut and stripped the wire back and cleaned the lug and re-seated the wire in the lug. Fuse blew again within a few months time. I then checked the Junction box on the roof where the USE-2 wire connects to THHN, and did a visual inspection of all the wiring on the roof. All of the Jbox connections and everything on the roof “looked” ok. I have also check all of the connections inside the Outback DC load center, and they look ok. Fuse replaced 3rd time and then it blew again. > > Before I take all of the panels off the rack, check panels, re-check string wiring on the roof, is there anything else I should be checking? Seems like that warm wire in the Combiner box is telling me something but I can’t figure out what...I believe this is a new problem in the last 2-3 years but we are not 100% sure when the problem first came up… > > As always, thanks for your help/ suggestions! > Amos > > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Tue Apr 15 11:11:17 2025 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2025 09:11:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Engineered Solution to 705.12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > I think Storm Copper offered engineering, consultation and some on-line > tutorials. Maybe one of these resources will help. > Now called Storm Power. In stock stuff ships quick, custom work was estimated at 6-8 weeks when I last inquired recently. The second link below provides details about custom work. . https://stormpowercomponents.com/ https://stormpowercomponents.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/busbar-design.pdf - Sam [image: OnSite Energy] Sam Haraldson Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 19:46:43 2025 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2025 18:46:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Future low Vmp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Nathan (and Kent), Back around 2020, I reached out to Sarah Kurtz about degradation dependencies, and she offered the following: "The degradation depends on the technology and, indeed, on the specifics of the product... The historical observation that silicon module degradation was dominated by short-circuit current is changing - more recent data suggest that the newer cells are more likely to lose fill factor and/or voltage." We base our calculations on the Vmp value at STC and on the ASHRAE 2% dry bulb temperature averaged over the 'summer' months (June/July/August). In order to estimate the cell temperature, we add the following according to the array type: - Canopy / ground / pole +25 °C - Roof (rack/tilt-up) +30 °C - Roof (flush/low-slope) +35 °C To predict future Vmp values, we apply an assumed 0.25% annual degradation rate. Given the overall uncertainty with the dependencies, I believe this assumption can be considered both reasonable and perhaps slightly conservative. Corey Shalanski Cherry Street Energy Atlanta, GA On Thu, Apr 10, 2025 at 6:46 PM Kent wrote: > > Nathan, > > In the NREL report Photovoltaic Degradation Rates — An Analytical Review > by Dirk C. Jordan and Sarah R. Kurtz > the conclusion is that the > 0.5% or so annual degradation of PV module output is mostly due to changes > in PV module current. Other studies have come to the same conclusion. So, > long term changes in voltage might not be worth worrying about. > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 4/10/2025 4:31 PM, Nathan J. Stumpff via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi wrenches, > > I used to do these kind of calcs all the time but am wicked rusty. What > assumptions do you use for future (degraded) hot temp Vmp of a PV string to > check if you will still be able to operate inside a given MPPT range? > Specifically interested in assumed yearly degradation to Vmp, assumed > actual operating cell temp, and if it is appropriate to use STC value as > the starting point and if not what would be better (NOCT?) > > Thanks, > -Nathan > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Apr 17 08:55:23 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2025 06:55:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase PCS Message-ID: Good Morning, Can Enphase implement busbar protection *without *an IQ system controller in order to keep from downsizing a main breaker? Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Apr 17 09:22:16 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2025 09:22:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase PCS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mac, Enphase's Power Control System (PCS) based limiting lives inside the IQ gateway, not the system controller. So you can still implement this on a standard grid tie system without the System Controller. Every system should have a Gateway. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Apr 17, 2025 at 8:56 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Good Morning, > > Can Enphase implement busbar protection *without *an IQ system controller > in order to keep from downsizing a main breaker? > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Apr 18 08:35:43 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2025 08:35:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX60 Replacement Message-ID: Hi all, I have a client that wants to replace a PV array that is aging and hurricane damaged. It's a rather old array of unknown rating connected to a MX60 via a Flexware 500 DC enclosure (48V). I'm planning to install eight REC 450 Alpha Pure RX in series. I'm going to need a 600 volt charge controller. I'm considering a Midnite Hawk's Bay unless someone has a better idea. The customer sent me this crude image. I can see the two inverter breakers on the right. I am wondering what the two breakers on the left are. I'm thinking one of these is an 80 amp breaker for the output of the MX60. The other one is probably a PV input breaker of unknown rating. I would need to change these to accommodate the new charge controller. The Midnite Hawk's Bay 90 requires a 125A output breaker. Does anyone know if there is an Outback breaker of this physical size and 125A rating to plug into this DC FlexWare enclosure? For the PV input, I should be able to get whatever breaker is required for this single string of PV. I'm all ears if there is an easier way to go about this with approximately 3,600W of new PV. Thanks in advance! Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot_20250418_080559_Video Player.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 641614 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Apr 18 09:39:59 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2025 09:39:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX60 Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, I have the same set up. These are the array and cc breakers.  Although we are having a power outage right now, the DC shunt is doing its usual crazy reading from time to time.   Chris On 4/18/2025 8:35 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a client that wants to replace a PV array that is aging and > hurricane damaged. It's a rather old array of unknown rating connected > to a MX60 via a Flexware 500 DC enclosure (48V). > > I'm planning to install eight REC 450 Alpha Pure RX in series. I'm > going to need a 600 volt charge controller. I'm considering a Midnite > Hawk's Bay unless someone has a better idea. > > The customer sent me this crude image. I can see the two inverter > breakers on the right. I am wondering what the two breakers on the > left are. I'm thinking one of these is an 80 amp breaker for the > output of the MX60. The other one is probably a PV input breaker of > unknown rating. I would need to change these to accommodate the new > charge controller. The Midnite Hawk's Bay 90 requires a 125A output > breaker. Does anyone know if there is an Outback breaker of this > physical size and 125A rating to plug into this DC FlexWare enclosure? > For the PV input, I should be able to get whatever breaker is required > for this single string of PV. > > I'm all ears if there is an easier way to go about this with > approximately 3,600W of new PV. > > Thanks in advance! > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2b1DSIMNoJXo0FJ2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 102709 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 09:44:48 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2025 06:44:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX60 Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't have another recommendation for a 600v charge controller but I can tell you Midnite does make a standard, single space panelmount 125a breaker. Also keep in mind the PV input breaker would have to be 600v rated, also readily available from Midnite.. Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Fri, Apr 18, 2025, 5:36 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a client that wants to replace a PV array that is aging and > hurricane damaged. It's a rather old array of unknown rating connected to a > MX60 via a Flexware 500 DC enclosure (48V). > > I'm planning to install eight REC 450 Alpha Pure RX in series. I'm going > to need a 600 volt charge controller. I'm considering a Midnite Hawk's Bay > unless someone has a better idea. > > The customer sent me this crude image. I can see the two inverter breakers > on the right. I am wondering what the two breakers on the left are. I'm > thinking one of these is an 80 amp breaker for the output of the MX60. The > other one is probably a PV input breaker of unknown rating. I would need to > change these to accommodate the new charge controller. The Midnite Hawk's > Bay 90 requires a 125A output breaker. Does anyone know if there is an > Outback breaker of this physical size and 125A rating to plug into this DC > FlexWare enclosure? For the PV input, I should be able to get whatever > breaker is required for this single string of PV. > > I'm all ears if there is an easier way to go about this with approximately > 3,600W of new PV. > > Thanks in advance! > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 09:56:56 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2025 07:56:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX60 Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E7A1AA7-A449-4DDF-9406-15F6F5A31137@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com Fri Apr 18 11:36:22 2025 From: travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com (Travis Knipple) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2025 11:36:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600V Clamping on DC Lines Message-ID: Has anyone encountered a system to use something like a Zener Circuit to clamp a string input at 600Voc? I've encountered many systems which, after designing for 600Voc, end up with ~300-350Vmp, which is less than ideal on a long-distance run. Since Voc should be a rare situation at the 2% temp, it seems like it would be better to clamp the voltage in those situations, and design for optimum performance in normal operation. -- Travis Knipple Senior Engineer Hudson Solar Solutions LLC Rhinebeck, NY 12572 518-539-8040 x408 | travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com PVIP# PV-111821-013612 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Apr 18 11:46:22 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2025 11:46:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600V Clamping on DC Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Apr 18 14:36:02 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2025 14:36:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase PCS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It most definitely can. We are using BBOC to avoid supply side interconnections, especially with meter/main combination devices. It has been a real game changer for us. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Apr 17, 2025, 8:56 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Good Morning, > > Can Enphase implement busbar protection *without *an IQ system controller > in order to keep from downsizing a main breaker? > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Apr 18 14:39:37 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2025 14:39:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX60 Replacement In-Reply-To: <3E7A1AA7-A449-4DDF-9406-15F6F5A31137@gmail.com> References: <3E7A1AA7-A449-4DDF-9406-15F6F5A31137@gmail.com> Message-ID: I was definitely leaning this direction, actually. The homeowner really has it in his mind that it should be simple to just replace the panels. It's tough to crack that shell. He's 80 plus. He even wanted me to install new panels on old 2-inch angle aluminum that is holding up the existing 190 watt panels. I nixed that idea right away. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Apr 18, 2025, 9:57 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I would consider looking at full replacement, because if they have a mx60 > it’s likely the inverters are also 20 yrs old. > > Given the costs of a 600v CC, plus BOS ( I don’t recommend installing 600v > into the green boxes) a midnite AIO isn’t going to be much more expensive. > > Just my 2 cents > Jay > > > > > > > > On Apr 18, 2025, at 7:45 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I don't have another recommendation for a 600v charge controller but I can > tell you Midnite does make a standard, single space panelmount 125a > breaker. Also keep in mind the PV input breaker would have to be 600v > rated, also readily available from Midnite.. > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2025, 5:36 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I have a client that wants to replace a PV array that is aging and >> hurricane damaged. It's a rather old array of unknown rating connected to a >> MX60 via a Flexware 500 DC enclosure (48V). >> >> I'm planning to install eight REC 450 Alpha Pure RX in series. I'm going >> to need a 600 volt charge controller. I'm considering a Midnite Hawk's Bay >> unless someone has a better idea. >> >> The customer sent me this crude image. I can see the two inverter >> breakers on the right. I am wondering what the two breakers on the left >> are. I'm thinking one of these is an 80 amp breaker for the output of the >> MX60. The other one is probably a PV input breaker of unknown rating. I >> would need to change these to accommodate the new charge controller. The >> Midnite Hawk's Bay 90 requires a 125A output breaker. Does anyone know if >> there is an Outback breaker of this physical size and 125A rating to plug >> into this DC FlexWare enclosure? For the PV input, I should be able to get >> whatever breaker is required for this single string of PV. >> >> I'm all ears if there is an easier way to go about this with >> approximately 3,600W of new PV. >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 09:43:46 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2025 06:43:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX60 Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Apr 19 08:26:05 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2025 06:26:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX60 Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Apr 19 10:19:55 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2025 10:19:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600V Clamping on DC Lines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45ed8bd3b0f23a39275bcf32af2b9b5d@redwoodalliance.org> Those devices were susceptible to catching fire. I saw a hole burned in a roof from one of them. It is a great idea however. _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ On 2025-04-18 11:46, Glenn via RE-wrenches wrote: > There was a company that sold a mlpe that went online with a single > module in a string, that when temps were low, would bypass the module > and prevent string overvoltage. > I don't believe the company is in business any longer. > We re powered a PV system that had been installed with them a couple > years ago. Most of the devices were charred failures. > > -Glenn > > On Apr 18, 2025 11:36, Travis Knipple via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Has anyone encountered a system to use something like a Zener Circuit >> to clamp a string input at 600Voc? >> I've encountered many systems which, after designing for 600Voc, end >> up with ~300-350Vmp, which is less than ideal on a long-distance run. >> Since Voc should be a rare situation at the 2% temp, it seems like it >> would be better to clamp the voltage in those situations, and design >> for optimum performance in normal operation. >> -- >> >> Travis Knipple >> Senior Engineer >> Hudson Solar Solutions LLC >> Rhinebeck, NY 12572 >> 518-539-8040 x408 | travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com >> >> PVIP# PV-111821-013612 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Apr 19 13:25:17 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2025 10:25:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600V Clamping on DC Lines In-Reply-To: <45ed8bd3b0f23a39275bcf32af2b9b5d@redwoodalliance.org> References: <45ed8bd3b0f23a39275bcf32af2b9b5d@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Another example of problems associated with disconnecting under load. Not recommended. That’s why RSD is so hard to achieve. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sat, Apr 19, 2025 at 7:20 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Those devices were susceptible to catching fire. I saw a hole burned in a > roof from one of them. It is a great idea however. > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > > On 2025-04-18 11:46, Glenn via RE-wrenches wrote: > > There was a company that sold a mlpe that went online with a single module > in a string, that when temps were low, would bypass the module and prevent > string overvoltage. > I don't believe the company is in business any longer. > We re powered a PV system that had been installed with them a couple years > ago. Most of the devices were charred failures. > > -Glenn > > On Apr 18, 2025 11:36, Travis Knipple via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Has anyone encountered a system to use something like a Zener Circuit to > clamp a string input at 600Voc? > I've encountered many systems which, after designing for 600Voc, end up > with ~300-350Vmp, which is less than ideal on a long-distance run. Since > Voc should be a rare situation at the 2% temp, it seems like it would be > better to clamp the voltage in those situations, and design for optimum > performance in normal operation. > > -- > Travis Knipple > Senior Engineer > Hudson Solar Solutions LLC > Rhinebeck, NY 12572 > 518-539-8040 x408 | travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com > > PVIP# PV-111821-013612 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump3391 at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 19:01:21 2025 From: tump3391 at gmail.com (Blair May) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2025 19:01:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX60 Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That voltage would b too low. Victron has a charge controller 250vdc it won't talk to the hub but they do have BT/wi fi connective 2 strings of 4 modules. Tump Blair "Tump" May On Fri, Apr 18, 2025, 8:34 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > You could swap it out with a FM-80 and do 4 strings of two modules in > series. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Apr 18, 2025, at 6:40 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Hi Jason, I have the same set up. These are the array and cc breakers. > Although we are having a power outage right now, the DC shunt is doing its > usual crazy reading from time to time. Chris > > > <2b1DSIMNoJXo0FJ2.jpg> > On 4/18/2025 8:35 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi all, > > I have a client that wants to replace a PV array that is aging and > hurricane damaged. It's a rather old array of unknown rating connected to a > MX60 via a Flexware 500 DC enclosure (48V). > > I'm planning to install eight REC 450 Alpha Pure RX in series. I'm going > to need a 600 volt charge controller. I'm considering a Midnite Hawk's Bay > unless someone has a better idea. > > The customer sent me this crude image. I can see the two inverter breakers > on the right. I am wondering what the two breakers on the left are. I'm > thinking one of these is an 80 amp breaker for the output of the MX60. The > other one is probably a PV input breaker of unknown rating. I would need to > change these to accommodate the new charge controller. The Midnite Hawk's > Bay 90 requires a 125A output breaker. Does anyone know if there is an > Outback breaker of this physical size and 125A rating to plug into this DC > FlexWare enclosure? For the PV input, I should be able to get whatever > breaker is required for this single string of PV. > > I'm all ears if there is an easier way to go about this with approximately > 3,600W of new PV. > > Thanks in advance! > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Apr 21 08:26:41 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2025 08:26:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX60 Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, Zonna has MATE 3s now but not sure if anything else . On Sat, Apr 19, 2025 at 8:27 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Does the new OB have product now? > > Jay > > > > On Apr 18, 2025, at 6:34 PM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > You could swap it out with a FM-80 and do 4 strings of two modules in > series. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Apr 18, 2025, at 6:40 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Hi Jason, I have the same set up. These are the array and cc breakers. > Although we are having a power outage right now, the DC shunt is doing its > usual crazy reading from time to time. Chris > > > <2b1DSIMNoJXo0FJ2.jpg> > > On 4/18/2025 8:35 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi all, > > I have a client that wants to replace a PV array that is aging and > hurricane damaged. It's a rather old array of unknown rating connected to a > MX60 via a Flexware 500 DC enclosure (48V). > > I'm planning to install eight REC 450 Alpha Pure RX in series. I'm going > to need a 600 volt charge controller. I'm considering a Midnite Hawk's Bay > unless someone has a better idea. > > The customer sent me this crude image. I can see the two inverter breakers > on the right. I am wondering what the two breakers on the left are. I'm > thinking one of these is an 80 amp breaker for the output of the MX60. The > other one is probably a PV input breaker of unknown rating. I would need to > change these to accommodate the new charge controller. The Midnite Hawk's > Bay 90 requires a 125A output breaker. Does anyone know if there is an > Outback breaker of this physical size and 125A rating to plug into this DC > FlexWare enclosure? For the PV input, I should be able to get whatever > breaker is required for this single string of PV. > > I'm all ears if there is an easier way to go about this with approximately > 3,600W of new PV. > > Thanks in advance! > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Apr 21 16:55:16 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2025 16:55:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX60 Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are particular challenges with running new conductors to the roof, and I don't have 8 wires to work with, unfortunately. This is one of the reasons I am planning a single string at 600V Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 8:34 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > You could swap it out with a FM-80 and do 4 strings of two modules in > series. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Apr 18, 2025, at 6:40 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Hi Jason, I have the same set up. These are the array and cc breakers. > Although we are having a power outage right now, the DC shunt is doing its > usual crazy reading from time to time. Chris > > > <2b1DSIMNoJXo0FJ2.jpg> > > On 4/18/2025 8:35 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi all, > > I have a client that wants to replace a PV array that is aging and > hurricane damaged. It's a rather old array of unknown rating connected to a > MX60 via a Flexware 500 DC enclosure (48V). > > I'm planning to install eight REC 450 Alpha Pure RX in series. I'm going > to need a 600 volt charge controller. I'm considering a Midnite Hawk's Bay > unless someone has a better idea. > > The customer sent me this crude image. I can see the two inverter breakers > on the right. I am wondering what the two breakers on the left are. I'm > thinking one of these is an 80 amp breaker for the output of the MX60. The > other one is probably a PV input breaker of unknown rating. I would need to > change these to accommodate the new charge controller. The Midnite Hawk's > Bay 90 requires a 125A output breaker. Does anyone know if there is an > Outback breaker of this physical size and 125A rating to plug into this DC > FlexWare enclosure? For the PV input, I should be able to get whatever > breaker is required for this single string of PV. > > I'm all ears if there is an easier way to go about this with approximately > 3,600W of new PV. > > Thanks in advance! > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Apr 21 17:27:47 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2025 17:27:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pytes E-Box 48100 batteries with Midnite AIO Message-ID: I have a client with eight Pytes batteries (not v5) where I am upgrading them to a Midnite AIO tomorrow on an emergency basis. I can't find any integration information, so I assume they cannot talk in a closed loop. That's okay, however, I also can't find charge voltage set points for these batteries anywhere. Does anybody know the absorb and float voltage of these 51.2V nominal batteries? Also, I noticed some of the batteries have six dip switches, and some have four. I assume these are just different versions. Anything I should be aware of? It looks like they simply Daisy chain together with ethernet cable for battery comms. No dip switch settings are required for inter battery communication. It looks like the dip switches are just for inverter comms. Thanks, Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Mon Apr 21 19:05:20 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2025 16:05:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pytes E-Box 48100 batteries with Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here are my settings on my Solark for my Pytes Batteries, I’ve got 4. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.png Type: image/png Size: 163178 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.png Type: image/png Size: 157277 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image2.png Type: image/png Size: 153491 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Apr 21, 2025, at 2:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I have a client with eight Pytes batteries (not v5) where I am upgrading them to a Midnite AIO tomorrow on an emergency basis. I can't find any integration information, so I assume they cannot talk in a closed loop. That's okay, however, I also can't find charge voltage set points for these batteries anywhere. > > Does anybody know the absorb and float voltage of these 51.2V nominal batteries? > > Also, I noticed some of the batteries have six dip switches, and some have four. I assume these are just different versions. Anything I should be aware of? It looks like they simply Daisy chain together with ethernet cable for battery comms. No dip switch settings are required for inter battery communication. It looks like the dip switches are just for inverter comms. > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Mon Apr 21 19:09:21 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2025 19:09:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pytes E-Box 48100 batteries with Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The MN AIO will not support the Pytes V5. The V5 has a proprietary protocol. But the Open loop always works!! On Mon, Apr 21, 2025 at 5:29 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have a client with eight Pytes batteries (not v5) where I am upgrading > them to a Midnite AIO tomorrow on an emergency basis. I can't find any > integration information, so I assume they cannot talk in a closed loop. > That's okay, however, I also can't find charge voltage set points for these > batteries anywhere. > > Does anybody know the absorb and float voltage of these 51.2V nominal > batteries? > > Also, I noticed some of the batteries have six dip switches, and some have > four. I assume these are just different versions. Anything I should be > aware of? It looks like they simply Daisy chain together with ethernet > cable for battery comms. No dip switch settings are required for inter > battery communication. It looks like the dip switches are just for inverter > comms. > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Apr 21 23:42:40 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2025 22:42:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pytes E-Box 48100 batteries with Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0A92A864-0069-4F01-B210-F6F533D92482@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: preview.png Type: image/png Size: 395100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Apr 22 05:46:42 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2025 05:46:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pytes E-Box 48100 batteries with Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 56.8V seems pretty high for Absorb. I read somewhere there want 57.5V. I could be wrong. I'm hoping I have success with Maverick's closed loop settings. You guys are awesome. Thanks for the quick responses. I am a little anxious, but also pretty confident and prepared with this new information. I'll let you know how it goes. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Apr 21, 2025, 7:05 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Here are my settings on my Solark for my Pytes Batteries, I’ve got 4. > > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > On Apr 21, 2025, at 2:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > >  > > I have a client with eight Pytes batteries (not v5) where I am upgrading > them to a Midnite AIO tomorrow on an emergency basis. I can't find any > integration information, so I assume they cannot talk in a closed loop. > That's okay, however, I also can't find charge voltage set points for these > batteries anywhere. > > > > Does anybody know the absorb and float voltage of these 51.2V nominal > batteries? > > > > Also, I noticed some of the batteries have six dip switches, and some > have four. I assume these are just different versions. Anything I should be > aware of? It looks like they simply Daisy chain together with ethernet > cable for battery comms. No dip switch settings are required for inter > battery communication. It looks like the dip switches are just for inverter > comms. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Apr 22 07:59:12 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2025 07:59:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Distributors versus manufacturers providing support Message-ID: I'm trying to get my head wrapped around distributors providing technical support services for manufacturers. I first noticed it with Signature Solar and others providing support for EG4. I thought it was strange that I needed to go through the distributor to establish an installer monitoring account for EG4. I just found out that the same thing applies to Midnite AIO. What makes it even more confusing is that you can get support from both the distributor and the manufacturer. And sometimes you get different answers. I have experienced this with battery integration questions. I think the manufacturer wants to claim maximum compatibility while the distributor may have a more realistic and practical understanding. In that respect, hearing it from a distributor, AKA salesperson, seems like a good idea. But when you are looking for raw technical information, it seems reasonable to go directly to the manufacturer. Admittedly, there has always been a little bit of overlap, but mostly it was technical advice geared toward the system design and component compatibility that you would receive from the distributor. When it came to technical support, fault resolution, and monitoring issues, the manufacturer was always the primary source. That seems to be changing in some cases. It seems like there is some end user risk here for both installers and system owners. What if you purchase products from multiple vendors? Do you need multiple installer monitoring accounts? How would a distributor know if they supplied a product for which you are seeking support? It would be hard enough keeping track myself. And what happens if that distributor goes out of business? Fun times... Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 22 09:07:13 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2025 07:07:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX60 Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, One thing you might consider is an Outback FM100 with the 300Vdc input. You can do 2 strings of 4, then combine on the roof. Typically you can easily get that on #10 wire. This may allow the controller to show up with the Mate. I would disable arc fault to make it work reliably. If you can't find them, let me know off-list and I may be able to help. Good luck! On Mon, Apr 21, 2025 at 2:55 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > There are particular challenges with running new conductors to the roof, > and I don't have 8 wires to work with, unfortunately. This is one of the > reasons I am planning a single string at 600V > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 8:34 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> You could swap it out with a FM-80 and do 4 strings of two modules in >> series. >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> On Apr 18, 2025, at 6:40 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Hi Jason, I have the same set up. These are the array and cc breakers. >> Although we are having a power outage right now, the DC shunt is doing its >> usual crazy reading from time to time. Chris >> >> >> <2b1DSIMNoJXo0FJ2.jpg> >> >> On 4/18/2025 8:35 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I have a client that wants to replace a PV array that is aging and >> hurricane damaged. It's a rather old array of unknown rating connected to a >> MX60 via a Flexware 500 DC enclosure (48V). >> >> I'm planning to install eight REC 450 Alpha Pure RX in series. I'm going >> to need a 600 volt charge controller. I'm considering a Midnite Hawk's Bay >> unless someone has a better idea. >> >> The customer sent me this crude image. I can see the two inverter >> breakers on the right. I am wondering what the two breakers on the left >> are. I'm thinking one of these is an 80 amp breaker for the output of the >> MX60. The other one is probably a PV input breaker of unknown rating. I >> would need to change these to accommodate the new charge controller. The >> Midnite Hawk's Bay 90 requires a 125A output breaker. Does anyone know if >> there is an Outback breaker of this physical size and 125A rating to plug >> into this DC FlexWare enclosure? For the PV input, I should be able to get >> whatever breaker is required for this single string of PV. >> >> I'm all ears if there is an easier way to go about this with >> approximately 3,600W of new PV. >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel, PE >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> (401) 447-5773 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Apr 22 09:44:21 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2025 08:44:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Distributors versus manufacturers providing support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason I agree with you. It is strange and dumb to track down a secret handshake through the distribution to get access to the manufacturer’s monitoring service. The distributor did know I ordered but didn’t send a preemptive welcome message. That’s on me, of course. I installed an EG4 18Kpv and I had to call Current Connected to get the secret password of CurrentConnected. Haha! Fortress Power did this right and printed in the manual “use code provided by the distributor or just use ‘Fortress’ as the code. Great, I didn’t have to call anyone! I have to track down the same for MidNite AIO as well or some other similar account setup thing. I’m trying to consolidate what I install and recommend (and therefore have to manage). So far: Fortress Envy and MidNite AIO are the way to go. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Apr 22, 2025, at 7:00 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I'm trying to get my head wrapped around distributors providing technical support services for manufacturers. I first noticed it with Signature Solar and others providing support for EG4. I thought it was strange that I needed to go through the distributor to establish an installer monitoring account for EG4. I just found out that the same thing applies to Midnite AIO. > > What makes it even more confusing is that you can get support from both the distributor and the manufacturer. And sometimes you get different answers. I have experienced this with battery integration questions. I think the manufacturer wants to claim maximum compatibility while the distributor may have a more realistic and practical understanding. In that respect, hearing it from a distributor, AKA salesperson, seems like a good idea. But when you are looking for raw technical information, it seems reasonable to go directly to the manufacturer. > > Admittedly, there has always been a little bit of overlap, but mostly it was technical advice geared toward the system design and component compatibility that you would receive from the distributor. When it came to technical support, fault resolution, and monitoring issues, the manufacturer was always the primary source. That seems to be changing in some cases. > > It seems like there is some end user risk here for both installers and system owners. > > What if you purchase products from multiple vendors? Do you need multiple installer monitoring accounts? How would a distributor know if they supplied a product for which you are seeking support? It would be hard enough keeping track myself. And what happens if that distributor goes out of business? > > Fun times... > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Tue Apr 22 09:56:48 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2025 06:56:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Distributors versus manufacturers providing support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe it was timing and I was ahead of the integration curve but Midnite tech support sent my installer account login via email. I agree it seems an odd prospect to get technical support or monitoring access from a sales rep, though I have yet to use eg4 or any other equipment that channels it's tech support through distributors. Reminds me of generator and small engine equipment companies... Have a great day everyone! Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Tue, Apr 22, 2025, 6:45 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason > > I agree with you. It is strange and dumb to track down a secret handshake > through the distribution to get access to the manufacturer’s monitoring > service. The distributor did know I ordered but didn’t send a preemptive > welcome message. That’s on me, of course. > > I installed an EG4 18Kpv and I had to call Current Connected to get the > secret password of CurrentConnected. Haha! > > Fortress Power did this right and printed in the manual “use code provided > by the distributor or just use ‘Fortress’ as the code. Great, I didn’t have > to call anyone! > > I have to track down the same for MidNite AIO as well or some other > similar account setup thing. > > I’m trying to consolidate what I install and recommend (and therefore have > to manage). So far: Fortress Envy and MidNite AIO are the way to go. > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Apr 22, 2025, at 7:00 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I'm trying to get my head wrapped around distributors providing technical > support services for manufacturers. I first noticed it with Signature Solar > and others providing support for EG4. I thought it was strange that I > needed to go through the distributor to establish an installer monitoring > account for EG4. I just found out that the same thing applies to Midnite > AIO. > > What makes it even more confusing is that you can get support from both > the distributor and the manufacturer. And sometimes you get different > answers. I have experienced this with battery integration questions. I > think the manufacturer wants to claim maximum compatibility while the > distributor may have a more realistic and practical understanding. In that > respect, hearing it from a distributor, AKA salesperson, seems like a good > idea. But when you are looking for raw technical information, it seems > reasonable to go directly to the manufacturer. > > Admittedly, there has always been a little bit of overlap, but mostly it > was technical advice geared toward the system design and component > compatibility that you would receive from the distributor. When it came to > technical support, fault resolution, and monitoring issues, the > manufacturer was always the primary source. That seems to be changing in > some cases. > > It seems like there is some end user risk here for both installers and > system owners. > > What if you purchase products from multiple vendors? Do you need multiple > installer monitoring accounts? How would a distributor know if they > supplied a product for which you are seeking support? It would be hard > enough keeping track myself. And what happens if that distributor goes out > of business? > > Fun times... > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 22 10:14:58 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2025 08:14:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Distributors versus manufacturers providing support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <658035FA-68F2-414C-AD31-879C904931A5@gmail.com> You can definitely talk to EG4 directly. I have. But I will say that Signature solar has good tech support for the simple stuff, they are quick to answer the phone. They do have the retail and commercial sections, and while I try and get through to the commercial sometimes I get the retail and its still be ok. And yes like with any tech support I have gotten contradictory info that I was able to straighten out. My understanding is that EG4 and SS are both owned by the same group of people. As to the midnite, would this be like Zonna or similar who’s providing tech support? jay From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 22 10:14:58 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2025 08:14:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Distributors versus manufacturers providing support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <658035FA-68F2-414C-AD31-879C904931A5@gmail.com> You can definitely talk to EG4 directly. I have. But I will say that Signature solar has good tech support for the simple stuff, they are quick to answer the phone. They do have the retail and commercial sections, and while I try and get through to the commercial sometimes I get the retail and its still be ok. And yes like with any tech support I have gotten contradictory info that I was able to straighten out. My understanding is that EG4 and SS are both owned by the same group of people. As to the midnite, would this be like Zonna or similar who’s providing tech support? jay From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 22 10:17:08 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2025 08:17:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar panel pricing In-Reply-To: <658035FA-68F2-414C-AD31-879C904931A5@gmail.com> References: <658035FA-68F2-414C-AD31-879C904931A5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <90066E90-3756-4ED7-8E88-E4C175A6C2F0@gmail.com> I dont know if everyone has seen this yet, but I’m wondering what your take is. I mean wow. https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2025/04/commerce-reveals-final-tariff-amounts-on-southeast-asian-solar-imports/?spMailingID=153002&puid=2502158&E=2502158&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=153002 Commerce reveals final tariff amounts on Southeast Asian solar imports solarpowerworldonline.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: solar-install-stock.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 88328 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Apr 22 13:32:53 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2025 10:32:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar panel pricing In-Reply-To: <90066E90-3756-4ED7-8E88-E4C175A6C2F0@gmail.com> References: <658035FA-68F2-414C-AD31-879C904931A5@gmail.com> <90066E90-3756-4ED7-8E88-E4C175A6C2F0@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have been very happy using Mission Solar-- manufactured in San Antonio, Texas-- for the last 5 or so years. I purchase them by the pallet and keep plenty on hand. What I don’t like is the half cut-cells and every manufacturer, including Mission is going that way. Here is my problem with them. Sorry to hijack the thread. If anyone wants to comment on the half-cut issue please start a new thread. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *jay via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, April 22, 2025 7:17 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* jay *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] solar panel pricing I don’t know if everyone has seen this yet, but I’m wondering what your take is. I mean wow. [image: solar-install-stock.jpg] Commerce reveals final tariff amounts on Southeast Asian solar imports solarpowerworldonline.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 12975 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Tue Apr 22 13:41:42 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2025 13:41:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Distributors versus manufacturers providing support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Everyone needs to look at the whole system. The issue is when you have "Installers" and then also have DIY. DIY can eat up Hours and Hours of support time. This time is not free and takes away from supporting customers who purchase more than one time (Installers). (Grid tie "installers" can also eat up large amounts of time trying to understand batteries, and complicated inverters hung on walls instead of not being attached to the back of solar panels) >From an installer standpoint it seems "Simple" but in the real world it is not. That is why you see support for the distribution channels, and support from the importer or manufacturer. The other solution is to do like Schnider did and lock it all down (like that worked so well) or like SolArk does and restrict the level of support, and that can still take days to wade through if you have an issue. Manufacturers sell at a steep discount to Distribution, and part of the discount is to supply some level of support for its customers. Otherwise the manufacturer might as well sell direct. But, that is another story of its own. Just my 2 cents. On Tue, Apr 22, 2025 at 9:45 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason > > I agree with you. It is strange and dumb to track down a secret handshake > through the distribution to get access to the manufacturer’s monitoring > service. The distributor did know I ordered but didn’t send a preemptive > welcome message. That’s on me, of course. > > I installed an EG4 18Kpv and I had to call Current Connected to get the > secret password of CurrentConnected. Haha! > > Fortress Power did this right and printed in the manual “use code provided > by the distributor or just use ‘Fortress’ as the code. Great, I didn’t have > to call anyone! > > I have to track down the same for MidNite AIO as well or some other > similar account setup thing. > > I’m trying to consolidate what I install and recommend (and therefore have > to manage). So far: Fortress Envy and MidNite AIO are the way to go. > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Apr 22, 2025, at 7:00 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I'm trying to get my head wrapped around distributors providing technical > support services for manufacturers. I first noticed it with Signature Solar > and others providing support for EG4. I thought it was strange that I > needed to go through the distributor to establish an installer monitoring > account for EG4. I just found out that the same thing applies to Midnite > AIO. > > What makes it even more confusing is that you can get support from both > the distributor and the manufacturer. And sometimes you get different > answers. I have experienced this with battery integration questions. I > think the manufacturer wants to claim maximum compatibility while the > distributor may have a more realistic and practical understanding. In that > respect, hearing it from a distributor, AKA salesperson, seems like a good > idea. But when you are looking for raw technical information, it seems > reasonable to go directly to the manufacturer. > > Admittedly, there has always been a little bit of overlap, but mostly it > was technical advice geared toward the system design and component > compatibility that you would receive from the distributor. When it came to > technical support, fault resolution, and monitoring issues, the > manufacturer was always the primary source. That seems to be changing in > some cases. > > It seems like there is some end user risk here for both installers and > system owners. > > What if you purchase products from multiple vendors? Do you need multiple > installer monitoring accounts? How would a distributor know if they > supplied a product for which you are seeking support? It would be hard > enough keeping track myself. And what happens if that distributor goes out > of business? > > Fun times... > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Apr 22 17:27:13 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2025 17:27:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar panel pricing In-Reply-To: References: <658035FA-68F2-414C-AD31-879C904931A5@gmail.com> <90066E90-3756-4ED7-8E88-E4C175A6C2F0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not to further hijack the thread, but I have had numerous diode failures in Mission Solar 410W panels. They took a bunch back from my inventory and replaced them, but I had a couple more failures. Since these are almost all on Enphase, I could easily spot the issues where one panel would produce 1/3 less than others. The issue typically manifests itself within about a week of installation. That said, overall I am happy with Mission Solar as well. Their warranty communication is terrible, but that is the case with REC and Silfab as well, so it may just be pervasive in the industry. The panels themselves perform. I have 26 Mission 425s on my roof at home. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Apr 22, 2025 at 1:35 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have been very happy using Mission Solar-- manufactured in San Antonio, > Texas-- for the last 5 or so years. I purchase them by the pallet and keep > plenty on hand. > > > > What I don’t like is the half cut-cells and every manufacturer, including > Mission is going that way. Here > > is my problem with them. Sorry to hijack the thread. If anyone wants to > comment on the half-cut issue please start a new thread. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *jay via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 22, 2025 7:17 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* jay > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] solar panel pricing > > > > I don’t know if everyone has seen this yet, but I’m wondering what your > take is. > > I mean wow. > > > > [image: solar-install-stock.jpg] > > Commerce reveals final tariff amounts on Southeast Asian solar imports > > > solarpowerworldonline.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 12975 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 23 06:46:59 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2025 06:46:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pytes E-Box 48100 batteries with Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: <0A92A864-0069-4F01-B210-F6F533D92482@mavericksolar.com> References: <0A92A864-0069-4F01-B210-F6F533D92482@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Hi all, Maverick's advice was tremendously helpful. My first Midnite AIO install was successful. The physical installation went very smoothly considering it was a retrofit and we had to live with what was there already. The programming took a couple of calls to tech support. I connected the Pytes E-Box stack to the AIO with an Ethernet cable and with PYLON selected I was able to see the battery SOC of 45%, which matched the LEDs on the batteries. But the AIO would not charge from solar or generator. I was confused about this and it was getting late, so I unplugged the cable and set the AIO to Lithium No BMS and it started charging instantly. So something with the battery comms was telling the AIO not to charge. I need to take another run at this and make sure the dip switches were set correctly. I really want to get closed loop comms working here. I still don't have the manufacturer voltage setpoints for the Pytes, so I set them to what I think is reasonable for now at 56.0V absorb and 54.0V float. It seems impossible to contact Pytes by phone, so if anyone has the setpoints documented, I would love to get those. Here are some lessons learned and odd quirks about the Midnite AIO in general. - Only bring battery cables into the leftmost knockout. Otherwise they will make accessing the MPPT inputs difficult. - Read the manual for startup instructions. The first time you start it must be from the app. The physical button won't work. - If you have a Samsung Galaxy Fold, the WiFi settings can only be set if the phone is closed. - The Smart Load outputs will not work unless the main 100A Load Output breaker is on. This was driving me crazy. The whole home only needs 50A, so I was using the 50A Smart Load Output only due to existing wire size. It would not come on even though it was programmed to be on all the time. I finally realized the smart load breakers get their input from the main breaker output. That is not at all apparent (and not documented). - It's a little hard to see the MPPT inputs unless you get the right angle. More importantly, check the polarity very carefully. The individual inputs have negative on the left. This could easily be mistaken since the battery inputs have positive on the left. I wish they made this consistent. - The Neutral bus also puts wires in front of the MPPTs. If you can land your PV strings first, that is highly recommended. - I was surprised to see that the app has no individual MPPT performance data. I'll have to check out the desktop version. I hope that data is available. That's all for now. If I gather more tips on my next trip, I'll add them here. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Apr 21, 2025, 11:43 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason > > I think you are in good shape. > > I’ve installed about 40 of them mostly on Sol-Ark. closed loop. > > 1. I also have 8 Pytes connected to Schneider InsightHome. I set the Pytes > to Luxpower ( dduudd ) which means 001100 on the 6-pin dip switch. BLU & > BLU-wht (pin 4 & 5) at the CAN port of the battery. InsightHome thinks it > is talking to Pylon batteries. > > 2. Also, when I plug the MidNite Powerflo16 into insight home, same story: BLU > & BLU-wht (pin 4 & 5) at the CAN port of the Powerflo16 to Insight, which > thinks it’s talking to a Pylon battery. > > Therefore: put the Pytes DIP to 001100 and use standard rj-45 cable to > AIO. They will talk to each other as Pylon protocol. > > If AIO has Pylon as a setting maybe that’s better. Maybe it will also work > with MidNite battery setting in the AIO? > > Also, the 4-pin vs 6-pin batteries may have a different firmware version, > so make the master a six pin. Just set the 6-pin on the master and leave > the rest of the battery dips off. It’s easy to upgrade the firmware via > HyperTerminal and that might be a different truck roll. > > Wire the Pytes Link ports, master link1 to slave link0 (slave link1 to > next slave link0), last slave link0 is open. Turn on all the rocker > switches, then press the Master RED SW button. If all other batteries wake > each other up, you’re good! > > I have a ton of Pytes resources. > > [image: preview.png] > > pytes-v5-quick-start-guide > > PDF Document · 983 KB > > > > > > P.S. the MidNite Pro App to setup the inverter the AIO installer / editing > password is superadmin, all lower case. > > I installed my first MNS AIO today. I still need to setup installer verses > user concept, but it was straightforward beyond that. > > I have open loop settings as well that I set for Outback, etc. I can send > those as well. > > I’m interested to see how it goes!! Send photos. ;-) > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Apr 21, 2025, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I have a client with eight Pytes batteries (not v5) where I am upgrading > them to a Midnite AIO tomorrow on an emergency basis. I can't find any > integration information, so I assume they cannot talk in a closed loop. > That's okay, however, I also can't find charge voltage set points for these > batteries anywhere. > > Does anybody know the absorb and float voltage of these 51.2V nominal > batteries? > > Also, I noticed some of the batteries have six dip switches, and some have > four. I assume these are just different versions. Anything I should be > aware of? It looks like they simply Daisy chain together with ethernet > cable for battery comms. No dip switch settings are required for inter > battery communication. It looks like the dip switches are just for inverter > comms. > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: preview.png Type: image/png Size: 395100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 23 07:56:29 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2025 07:56:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pytes E-Box 48100 batteries with Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: <0A92A864-0069-4F01-B210-F6F533D92482@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: I just made a happy discovery. Swiping left in the Midnite app from the system home screen gives you a treasure trove of information, including the MPPT performance data I was looking for. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Apr 23, 2025, 6:46 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > Maverick's advice was tremendously helpful. > > My first Midnite AIO install was successful. The physical installation > went very smoothly considering it was a retrofit and we had to live with > what was there already. The programming took a couple of calls to tech > support. > > I connected the Pytes E-Box stack to the AIO with an Ethernet cable and > with PYLON selected I was able to see the battery SOC of 45%, which matched > the LEDs on the batteries. But the AIO would not charge from solar or > generator. I was confused about this and it was getting late, so I > unplugged the cable and set the AIO to Lithium No BMS and it started > charging instantly. So something with the battery comms was telling the AIO > not to charge. I need to take another run at this and make sure the dip > switches were set correctly. I really want to get closed loop comms working > here. > > I still don't have the manufacturer voltage setpoints for the Pytes, so I > set them to what I think is reasonable for now at 56.0V absorb and 54.0V > float. It seems impossible to contact Pytes by phone, so if anyone has the > setpoints documented, I would love to get those. > > Here are some lessons learned and odd quirks about the Midnite AIO in > general. > > - Only bring battery cables into the leftmost knockout. Otherwise they > will make accessing the MPPT inputs difficult. > - Read the manual for startup instructions. The first time you start it > must be from the app. The physical button won't work. > - If you have a Samsung Galaxy Fold, the WiFi settings can only be set if > the phone is closed. > - The Smart Load outputs will not work unless the main 100A Load Output > breaker is on. This was driving me crazy. The whole home only needs 50A, so > I was using the 50A Smart Load Output only due to existing wire size. It > would not come on even though it was programmed to be on all the time. I > finally realized the smart load breakers get their input from the main > breaker output. That is not at all apparent (and not documented). > - It's a little hard to see the MPPT inputs unless you get the right > angle. More importantly, check the polarity very carefully. The individual > inputs have negative on the left. This could easily be mistaken since the > battery inputs have positive on the left. I wish they made this consistent. > - The Neutral bus also puts wires in front of the MPPTs. If you can land > your PV strings first, that is highly recommended. > - I was surprised to see that the app has no individual MPPT performance > data. I'll have to check out the desktop version. I hope that data is > available. > > That's all for now. If I gather more tips on my next trip, I'll add them > here. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, Apr 21, 2025, 11:43 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason >> >> I think you are in good shape. >> >> I’ve installed about 40 of them mostly on Sol-Ark. closed loop. >> >> 1. I also have 8 Pytes connected to Schneider InsightHome. I set the >> Pytes to Luxpower ( dduudd ) which means 001100 on the 6-pin dip switch. >> BLU & BLU-wht (pin 4 & 5) at the CAN port of the battery. InsightHome >> thinks it is talking to Pylon batteries. >> >> 2. Also, when I plug the MidNite Powerflo16 into insight home, same >> story: BLU & BLU-wht (pin 4 & 5) at the CAN port of the Powerflo16 to >> Insight, which thinks it’s talking to a Pylon battery. >> >> Therefore: put the Pytes DIP to 001100 and use standard rj-45 cable to >> AIO. They will talk to each other as Pylon protocol. >> >> If AIO has Pylon as a setting maybe that’s better. Maybe it will also >> work with MidNite battery setting in the AIO? >> >> Also, the 4-pin vs 6-pin batteries may have a different firmware version, >> so make the master a six pin. Just set the 6-pin on the master and leave >> the rest of the battery dips off. It’s easy to upgrade the firmware via >> HyperTerminal and that might be a different truck roll. >> >> Wire the Pytes Link ports, master link1 to slave link0 (slave link1 to >> next slave link0), last slave link0 is open. Turn on all the rocker >> switches, then press the Master RED SW button. If all other batteries wake >> each other up, you’re good! >> >> I have a ton of Pytes resources. >> >> [image: preview.png] >> >> pytes-v5-quick-start-guide >> >> PDF Document · 983 KB >> >> >> >> >> >> P.S. the MidNite Pro App to setup the inverter the AIO installer / >> editing password is superadmin, all lower case. >> >> I installed my first MNS AIO today. I still need to setup installer >> verses user concept, but it was straightforward beyond that. >> >> I have open loop settings as well that I set for Outback, etc. I can send >> those as well. >> >> I’m interested to see how it goes!! Send photos. ;-) >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >> On Apr 21, 2025, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> I have a client with eight Pytes batteries (not v5) where I am upgrading >> them to a Midnite AIO tomorrow on an emergency basis. I can't find any >> integration information, so I assume they cannot talk in a closed loop. >> That's okay, however, I also can't find charge voltage set points for these >> batteries anywhere. >> >> Does anybody know the absorb and float voltage of these 51.2V nominal >> batteries? >> >> Also, I noticed some of the batteries have six dip switches, and some >> have four. I assume these are just different versions. Anything I should be >> aware of? It looks like they simply Daisy chain together with ethernet >> cable for battery comms. No dip switch settings are required for inter >> battery communication. It looks like the dip switches are just for inverter >> comms. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: preview.png Type: image/png Size: 395100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Apr 23 10:01:08 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2025 09:01:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pytes E-Box 48100 batteries with Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: <0A92A864-0069-4F01-B210-F6F533D92482@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <03599E69-ECAC-45C4-B988-E9049A7ED547@mavericksolar.com> Jason, Here is the Pytes Integration Guide for Outback and Schneider. From that, you can glean the setting for open loop. Bottom Line: 56 ABS is fine and 54 FLT is also fine.  Also, I made running list of setting from just about every LiFePO4 battery out there and I decided to lower ABS to 3.45Vpc (55.2) and float also higher (to accommodate SellRE). And I absorb much longer (which only technically happens when off grid, since SellRE voltage is also set to a reasonable number. I usually run my own Radian as Mini-Grid with 8 Pytes in parallel (with 8 eFLEX). The SOC on all 16 batteries usually tracks within 10%. This sheet is my opiinion and should be taken as such. I also update this every chance I need to as I learn more. I commonly revisit battery banks and add new information.  Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Apr 23, 2025, at 5:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi all, > > Maverick's advice was tremendously helpful. > > My first Midnite AIO install was successful. The physical installation went very smoothly considering it was a retrofit and we had to live with what was there already. The programming took a couple of calls to tech support. > > I connected the Pytes E-Box stack to the AIO with an Ethernet cable and with PYLON selected I was able to see the battery SOC of 45%, which matched the LEDs on the batteries. But the AIO would not charge from solar or generator. I was confused about this and it was getting late, so I unplugged the cable and set the AIO to Lithium No BMS and it started charging instantly. So something with the battery comms was telling the AIO not to charge. I need to take another run at this and make sure the dip switches were set correctly. I really want to get closed loop comms working here. > > I still don't have the manufacturer voltage setpoints for the Pytes, so I set them to what I think is reasonable for now at 56.0V absorb and 54.0V float. It seems impossible to contact Pytes by phone, so if anyone has the setpoints documented, I would love to get those. > > Here are some lessons learned and odd quirks about the Midnite AIO in general. > > - Only bring battery cables into the leftmost knockout. Otherwise they will make accessing the MPPT inputs difficult. > - Read the manual for startup instructions. The first time you start it must be from the app. The physical button won't work. > - If you have a Samsung Galaxy Fold, the WiFi settings can only be set if the phone is closed. > - The Smart Load outputs will not work unless the main 100A Load Output breaker is on. This was driving me crazy. The whole home only needs 50A, so I was using the 50A Smart Load Output only due to existing wire size. It would not come on even though it was programmed to be on all the time. I finally realized the smart load breakers get their input from the main breaker output. That is not at all apparent (and not documented). > - It's a little hard to see the MPPT inputs unless you get the right angle. More importantly, check the polarity very carefully. The individual inputs have negative on the left. This could easily be mistaken since the battery inputs have positive on the left. I wish they made this consistent. > - The Neutral bus also puts wires in front of the MPPTs. If you can land your PV strings first, that is highly recommended. > - I was surprised to see that the app has no individual MPPT performance data. I'll have to check out the desktop version. I hope that data is available. > > That's all for now. If I gather more tips on my next trip, I'll add them here. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, Apr 21, 2025, 11:43 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Jason >> >> I think you are in good shape. >> >> I’ve installed about 40 of them mostly on Sol-Ark. closed loop. >> >> 1. I also have 8 Pytes connected to Schneider InsightHome. I set the Pytes to Luxpower ( dduudd ) which means 001100 on the 6-pin dip switch. BLU & BLU-wht (pin 4 & 5) at the CAN port of the battery. InsightHome thinks it is talking to Pylon batteries. >> >> 2. Also, when I plug the MidNite Powerflo16 into insight home, same story: BLU & BLU-wht (pin 4 & 5) at the CAN port of the Powerflo16 to Insight, which thinks it’s talking to a Pylon battery. >> >> Therefore: put the Pytes DIP to 001100 and use standard rj-45 cable to AIO. They will talk to each other as Pylon protocol. >> >> If AIO has Pylon as a setting maybe that’s better. Maybe it will also work with MidNite battery setting in the AIO? >> >> Also, the 4-pin vs 6-pin batteries may have a different firmware version, so make the master a six pin. Just set the 6-pin on the master and leave the rest of the battery dips off. It’s easy to upgrade the firmware via HyperTerminal and that might be a different truck roll. >> >> Wire the Pytes Link ports, master link1 to slave link0 (slave link1 to next slave link0), last slave link0 is open. Turn on all the rocker switches, then press the Master RED SW button. If all other batteries wake each other up, you’re good! >> >> I have a ton of Pytes resources. >> >> >> pytes-v5-quick-start-guide >> PDF Document · 983 KB >> pytes-v5-quick-start-guide >> PDF Document · 983 KB >> >> P.S. the MidNite Pro App to setup the inverter the AIO installer / editing password is superadmin, all lower case. >> >> I installed my first MNS AIO today. I still need to setup installer verses user concept, but it was straightforward beyond that. >> >> I have open loop settings as well that I set for Outback, etc. I can send those as well. >> >> I’m interested to see how it goes!! Send photos. ;-) >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >>> On Apr 21, 2025, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> I have a client with eight Pytes batteries (not v5) where I am upgrading them to a Midnite AIO tomorrow on an emergency basis. I can't find any integration information, so I assume they cannot talk in a closed loop. That's okay, however, I also can't find charge voltage set points for these batteries anywhere. >>> >>> Does anybody know the absorb and float voltage of these 51.2V nominal batteries? >>> >>> Also, I noticed some of the batteries have six dip switches, and some have four. I assume these are just different versions. Anything I should be aware of? It looks like they simply Daisy chain together with ethernet cable for battery comms. No dip switch settings are required for inter battery communication. It looks like the dip switches are just for inverter comms. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outback Guide(E-Box 48100R).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 288182 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Pytes-integration-Outback-power.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 288182 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Wed Apr 23 15:55:27 2025 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2025 13:55:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converter from 230VAC to 12VDC In-Reply-To: References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004301dbb489$a96b43a0$fc41cae0$@OasisMontana.com> Hey folks: I’m trying to assist a friend with a defunct hydro system in Ecuador; actually, the hydro system is the only thing working. It’s (I assume unrectified) output is 230VAC 50 htz and about ~500W, and they want to step it down for charging a 12V battery bank. I’ve tried to get them to look at other voltages but a lot of their loads are 12V, and this IS a very primitive system. It’s in a rainforest so there is no solar resource to speak of. They will be running some 120VAC 60 htz loads (like computers and phone chargers) but they already have a bunch of DC led lights in place. It gets dark there at 6 pm every night and the forest is so dense, solar is not an option. Do you know of anyone that offers or can manufacture such a converter? This is for a school and clinic that gets displaced from weather, equipment failures and mercenaries. Feel free to contact me off list. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Apr 23 16:49:09 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2025 20:49:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converter from 230VAC to 12VDC In-Reply-To: <004301dbb489$a96b43a0$fc41cae0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> <004301dbb489$a96b43a0$fc41cae0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: An iota DLS 240VAC power supply / charger might just do what you are looking for hear quite cheaply. https://www.iotaengineering.com/products/dls-power-converters-battery-chargers/240-vac-input#sort=relevancy&numberOfResults=20 Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Daum via RE-wrenches Sent: April-23-25 12:55 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Cc: chris at OasisMontana.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converter from 230VAC to 12VDC Importance: High Hey folks: I’m trying to assist a friend with a defunct hydro system in Ecuador; actually, the hydro system is the only thing working. It’s (I assume unrectified) output is 230VAC 50 htz and about ~500W, and they want to step it down for charging a 12V battery bank. I’ve tried to get them to look at other voltages but a lot of their loads are 12V, and this IS a very primitive system. It’s in a rainforest so there is no solar resource to speak of. They will be running some 120VAC 60 htz loads (like computers and phone chargers) but they already have a bunch of DC led lights in place. It gets dark there at 6 pm every night and the forest is so dense, solar is not an option. Do you know of anyone that offers or can manufacture such a converter? This is for a school and clinic that gets displaced from weather, equipment failures and mercenaries. Feel free to contact me off list. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 23 17:43:53 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2025 15:43:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converter from 230VAC to 12VDC In-Reply-To: <004301dbb489$a96b43a0$fc41cae0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> <004301dbb489$a96b43a0$fc41cae0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: HI Chris, It highly unlikely it’s 230v 50 hz exactly as it’s going to be related to head and flow and the type of turbine. It also is very likely a 3 phase motor. Depending on the exact motor and turbine etc, the VOC vs working range can be 2X+ Hz also changes with rpm which is directly related to flow, height and load. With Iota’s you generally have to have a dump load to keep the hydro working, as again depends on the type of hydro and motor you don’t want to let it go VOC as the RPM just goes through the roof which would happen if the battery is full and the iota is at its charge set point. You are going to need more info to be able to figure out which is the best way to convert it. With more info I can help you get the right parts. Ive done a number of hydros in Ecuador. jay > On Apr 23, 2025, at 1:55 PM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hey folks: > > I’m trying to assist a friend with a defunct hydro system in Ecuador; actually, the hydro system is the only thing working. It’s (I assume unrectified) output is 230VAC 50 htz and about ~500W, and they want to step it down for charging a 12V battery bank. I’ve tried to get them to look at other voltages but a lot of their loads are 12V, and this IS a very primitive system. It’s in a rainforest so there is no solar resource to speak of. They will be running some 120VAC 60 htz loads (like computers and phone chargers) but they already have a bunch of DC led lights in place. It gets dark there at 6 pm every night and the forest is so dense, solar is not an option. > > Do you know of anyone that offers or can manufacture such a converter? This is for a school and clinic that gets displaced from weather, equipment failures and mercenaries. > > Feel free to contact me off list. > > Best, > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Apr 23 19:42:19 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2025 16:42:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converter from 230VAC to 12VDC In-Reply-To: References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> <004301dbb489$a96b43a0$fc41cae0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, would a outback E inverter, they are 50 hz 230 vac get a 2512E Fun times On Wed, Apr 23, 2025, 2:44 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI Chris, > > It highly unlikely it’s 230v 50 hz exactly as it’s going to be related to > head and flow and the type of turbine. > It also is very likely a 3 phase motor. > Depending on the exact motor and turbine etc, the VOC vs working range can > be 2X+ > Hz also changes with rpm which is directly related to flow, height and > load. > With Iota’s you generally have to have a dump load to keep the hydro > working, as again depends on the type of hydro and motor you don’t want to > let it go VOC as the RPM just goes through the roof which would happen if > the battery is full and the iota is at its charge set point. > > You are going to need more info to be able to figure out which is the best > way to convert it. > With more info I can help you get the right parts. > > Ive done a number of hydros in Ecuador. > > jay > > > > On Apr 23, 2025, at 1:55 PM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hey folks: > > I’m trying to assist a friend with a defunct hydro system in Ecuador; > actually, the hydro system is the only thing working. It’s (I assume > unrectified) output is 230VAC 50 htz and about ~500W, and they want to > step it down for charging a 12V battery bank. I’ve tried to get them to > look at other voltages but a lot of their loads are 12V, and this IS a very > primitive system. It’s in a rainforest so there is no solar resource to > speak of. They will be running some 120VAC 60 htz loads (like computers > and phone chargers) but they already have a bunch of DC led lights in place. > It gets dark there at 6 pm every night and the forest is so dense, > solar is not an option. > > Do you know of anyone that offers or can manufacture such a converter? This > is for a school and clinic that gets displaced from weather, equipment > failures and mercenaries. > > Feel free to contact me off list. > > Best, > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 23 20:12:54 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2025 18:12:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converter from 230VAC to 12VDC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Wed Apr 23 21:41:18 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2025 18:41:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converter from 230VAC to 12VDC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not sure how shipping would work but may make sense to replace the hydro with a new 12v nominal DC hydro and dumpload combo or a rectifier circuit of some kind..Jerry at www.APMhydro.com(based in southern Oregon) is an excellent resource and may have a solution for you. Best of luck! Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Wed, Apr 23, 2025, 5:13 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > It doesn’t work like that. > > A turbine will run at what’s called wild voltage. > > The output of the motor say 230v 50hz would only be 230/50 if the water > was capable of spinning the motor at the correct speed under the load > required which is all but impossible to maintain. > > > Less water pressure means less rpm means less hz and volts. > Diameter of the runner/wheel combined with pressure determines the speed > which determines hz/volts. > > More load slows down the wheel which lowers hz and volts. > > This is why it’s hard to run a AC direct hydro and most are converted to > dc via bridge rectifier which has a number of different options on how to > step it down to the battery voltage. > > And then depending on the voltage range of the motor, you might have to > install dump loads vs a mppt controller for example. As the motor depending > on lots of variables could have a huge voltage range, 2-4x voc vs normal > operating voltage if the motor goes unloaded. > > > Sometimes just with old solar stuff, it might be better to replace with a > newer unit that’s easier to use. > > Hydros are way more complex than PV. > > > > > > > > > On Apr 23, 2025, at 5:42 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >  > > Wrenches, would a outback E inverter, they are 50 hz 230 vac get a 2512E > Fun times > > On Wed, Apr 23, 2025, 2:44 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> HI Chris, >> >> It highly unlikely it’s 230v 50 hz exactly as it’s going to be related to >> head and flow and the type of turbine. >> It also is very likely a 3 phase motor. >> Depending on the exact motor and turbine etc, the VOC vs working range >> can be 2X+ >> Hz also changes with rpm which is directly related to flow, height and >> load. >> With Iota’s you generally have to have a dump load to keep the hydro >> working, as again depends on the type of hydro and motor you don’t want to >> let it go VOC as the RPM just goes through the roof which would happen if >> the battery is full and the iota is at its charge set point. >> >> You are going to need more info to be able to figure out which is the >> best way to convert it. >> With more info I can help you get the right parts. >> >> Ive done a number of hydros in Ecuador. >> >> jay >> >> >> >> On Apr 23, 2025, at 1:55 PM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hey folks: >> >> I’m trying to assist a friend with a defunct hydro system in Ecuador; >> actually, the hydro system is the only thing working. It’s (I assume >> unrectified) output is 230VAC 50 htz and about ~500W, and they want to >> step it down for charging a 12V battery bank. I’ve tried to get them to >> look at other voltages but a lot of their loads are 12V, and this IS a very >> primitive system. It’s in a rainforest so there is no solar resource to >> speak of. They will be running some 120VAC 60 htz loads (like computers >> and phone chargers) but they already have a bunch of DC led lights in place. >> It gets dark there at 6 pm every night and the forest is so dense, >> solar is not an option. >> >> Do you know of anyone that offers or can manufacture such a converter? This >> is for a school and clinic that gets displaced from weather, equipment >> failures and mercenaries. >> >> Feel free to contact me off list. >> >> Best, >> >> Chris Daum >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> 406-777-4309 fax >> www.oasismontana.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Apr 24 09:51:36 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2025 09:51:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converter from 230VAC to 12VDC In-Reply-To: References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> <004301dbb489$a96b43a0$fc41cae0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: The Iota DLS chargers are incredibly tolerant of frequency and voltage fluctuations. Drake --- On 2025-04-23 16:49, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > An iota DLS 240VAC power supply / charger might just do what you are > looking for hear quite cheaply. > > https://www.iotaengineering.com/products/dls-power-converters-battery-chargers/240-vac-input#sort=relevancy&numberOfResults=20 > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Chris Daum via RE-wrenches > Sent: April-23-25 12:55 PM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Cc: chris at OasisMontana.com > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converter from 230VAC to 12VDC > Importance: High > > Hey folks: > > I'm trying to assist a friend with a defunct hydro system in Ecuador; > actually, the hydro system is the only thing working. It's (I assume > unrectified) output is 230VAC 50 htz and about ~500W, and they want to > step it down for charging a 12V battery bank. I've tried to get them > to look at other voltages but a lot of their loads are 12V, and this IS > a very primitive system. It's in a rainforest so there is no solar > resource to speak of. They will be running some 120VAC 60 htz loads > (like computers and phone chargers) but they already have a bunch of DC > led lights in place. It gets dark there at 6 pm every night and the > forest is so dense, solar is not an option. > > Do you know of anyone that offers or can manufacture such a converter? > This is for a school and clinic that gets displaced from weather, > equipment failures and mercenaries. > > Feel free to contact me off list. > > Best, > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com [1] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.oasismontana.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Thu Apr 24 19:45:55 2025 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2025 16:45:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converter from 230VAC to 12VDC In-Reply-To: <004301dbb489$a96b43a0$fc41cae0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <63A99E08-F620-4FDD-8064-92F7A32B78DD@gmail.com> <004301dbb489$a96b43a0$fc41cae0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <24e402aa-4eb6-431b-aa9c-748157fd8502@coveoregon.com> The Midnite Classic charge controller can be used with hydro systems. The existing 230VAC would have to be stepped down with a transformer and rectified ahead of the Classic. The transformer(s) should be selected so that even at open circuit, the rectified voltage doesn't come anywhere close to the Classic's voltage rating. Considering that it is only 500 watts the transformers shouldn't be very expensive. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 4/23/2025 12:55 PM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hey folks: > > I’m trying to assist a friend with a defunct hydro system in Ecuador; > actually, the hydro system is the only thing working.It’s (I assume > unrectified) output is 230VAC 50 htz and about ~500W, and they want to > step it down for charging a 12V battery bank.I’ve tried to get them to > look at other voltages but a lot of their loads are 12V, and this IS a > very primitive system.It’s in a rainforest so there is no solar > resource to speak of.They will be running some 120VAC 60 htz loads > (like computers and phone chargers) but they already have a bunch of > DC led lights in place.It gets dark there at 6 pm every night and the > forest is so dense, solar is not an option. > > Do you know of anyone that offers or can manufacture such a > converter?This is for a school and clinic that gets displaced from > weather, equipment failures and mercenaries. > > Feel free to contact me off list. > > Best, > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Apr 25 01:30:55 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2025 22:30:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100s not available Message-ID: Friends: I need three FM100 charge controllers but it seems no one has them. It has occurred to me that for not much more than the cost of 3 FM100s I can buy a Fortress Envy 12K inverter and it will have the capability of 3 FM100s plus 12 kW of inverter plus compatibility with the existing Unigy battery bank plus future compatibility with Lithium batteries. The same applies for the Sol-Arc, and the Midnight AIO and probably others. Since my first Radio Shack separate amp and tuner, I have always favored a component approach to systems. With Outback apparently circling the drain or generally being unavailable, I am starting the see the appeal of the new AIO inverters. The AIOs have a wide voltage range on the MPPT inputs making stringing less problematic. I ordered a Sol-Arc 12K for my property to load shift and solve my NEM3 dilemma. With CTs on the service I can run my home on batteries from sun-down to sun-up and avoid being screwed by PG&E. It’s hard keeping up with all of the new technology but we are getting new tools to solve design problems. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump3391 at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 09:07:08 2025 From: tump3391 at gmail.com (Blair May) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2025 09:07:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100s not available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I too am NOT excited about the AIO, seems like for off grid clients its a nightmare waiting to happen. Sol Ark ….running all your individual strings back to the inverter is to say the least a pain, w/ new systems but old upgrades? Victron does have Hi voltage & Hi current CCs as well as other Manus. All the BOS for replacing older CCs is already on the wall. Needless to say this white head still prefers redundancy. Tump > On Apr 25, 2025, at 1:30 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > I need three FM100 charge controllers but it seems no one has them. It has occurred to me that for not much more than the cost of 3 FM100s I can buy a Fortress Envy 12K inverter and it will have the capability of 3 FM100s plus 12 kW of inverter plus compatibility with the existing Unigy battery bank plus future compatibility with Lithium batteries. The same applies for the Sol-Arc, and the Midnight AIO and probably others. > > Since my first Radio Shack separate amp and tuner, I have always favored a component approach to systems. With Outback apparently circling the drain or generally being unavailable, I am starting the see the appeal of the new AIO inverters. The AIOs have a wide voltage range on the MPPT inputs making stringing less problematic. > > I ordered a Sol-Arc 12K for my property to load shift and solve my NEM3 dilemma. With CTs on the service I can run my home on batteries from sun-down to sun-up and avoid being screwed by PG&E. > > It’s hard keeping up with all of the new technology but we are getting new tools to solve design problems. > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Blair “TUMP” May Solarwinds Northernlights east "We must all learn to live together as brothers, or we all will perish as fools." MLK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Fri Apr 25 09:28:03 2025 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2025 08:28:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100s not available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The standby power consumption of one of those inverters is going to be a lot more than three FM100 controllers. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Fri, Apr 25, 2025 at 8:06 AM Blair May via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I too am NOT excited about the AIO, seems like for off grid clients its a > nightmare waiting to happen. Sol Ark ….running all your individual strings > back to the inverter is to say the least a pain, w/ new systems but old > upgrades? Victron does have Hi voltage & Hi current CCs as well as other > Manus. All the BOS for replacing older CCs is already on the wall. > Needless to say this white head still prefers redundancy. Tump > > > On Apr 25, 2025, at 1:30 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Friends: > > > I need three FM100 charge controllers but it seems no one has them. It > has occurred to me that for not much more than the cost of 3 FM100s I can > buy a Fortress Envy 12K inverter and it will have the capability of 3 > FM100s plus 12 kW of inverter plus compatibility with the existing Unigy > battery bank plus future compatibility with Lithium batteries. The same > applies for the Sol-Arc, and the Midnight AIO and probably others. > > > Since my first Radio Shack separate amp and tuner, I have always favored a > component approach to systems. With Outback apparently circling the drain > or generally being unavailable, I am starting the see the appeal of the new > AIO inverters. The AIOs have a wide voltage range on the MPPT inputs > making stringing less problematic. > > > I ordered a Sol-Arc 12K for my property to load shift and solve my NEM3 > dilemma. With CTs on the service I can run my home on batteries from > sun-down to sun-up and avoid being screwed by PG&E. > > > It’s hard keeping up with all of the new technology but we are getting new > tools to solve design problems. > > > William > > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Blair “TUMP” May > Solarwinds Northernlights east > "We must all learn to live together as brothers, > or we all will perish as fools." > MLK > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 10:02:22 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2025 08:02:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100s not available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98C80A0F-DDD6-41CB-B4AE-77D9D70D2BF5@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Fri Apr 25 12:35:40 2025 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nicholas Ponzio) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2025 12:35:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Lifting Dolly? Message-ID: We're starting to sell the FranklinWH batteries. Realizing that they're VERY heavy we had a lifting dolly on order but just found out that it still hasn't left the factory and is now subject to the ridiculous tariffs. We're talking over $3,000 for a friggin handtruck!??? Does anyone have a recommendation for another way to move these big bois around? Is a generic platform lift going to work for us? Something like: https://www.grainger.com/product/2MPU6 -- Nicholas Ponzio Building Energy http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Fri Apr 25 12:45:34 2025 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2025 10:45:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Lifting Dolly? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rumor has it that everything from Franklin is about to get hit with tariff increases as their current inventory already in the states is completely gone. As for a manual lift like the Grainger one you shared I think you'll find that to be more than enough. We have a fancy Staircat that has a motor and can climb up and down stairs but 9 out of 10 times it's overkill and the simple mechanical hand crank lifting and lowering is all we need. Cheers, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] Sam Haraldson Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Apr 25 12:47:29 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2025 12:47:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Lifting Dolly? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nik, I have that exact Grainger model. It works great. Cost about $1,100 a year ago. I've hung several Solaredge banks with it. But don't be a dummy like me and try to lift the battery cabinet off the platform by yourself. I've done it successfully alone, but not easy. Depends somewhat on the brand of battery. I'd let you borrow it, but It's stored out of state right now. Hope you are well. On Fri, Apr 25, 2025 at 12:37 PM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We're starting to sell the FranklinWH batteries. Realizing that they're > VERY heavy we had a lifting dolly on order but just found out that it still > hasn't left the factory and is now subject to the ridiculous tariffs. We're > talking over $3,000 for a friggin handtruck!??? > > Does anyone have a recommendation for another way to move these big bois > around? Is a generic platform lift going to work for us? Something like: > https://www.grainger.com/product/2MPU6 > > > > -- > Nicholas Ponzio > Building Energy > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Apr 25 14:10:46 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2025 14:10:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Lifting Dolly? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Tesla Powerwall dolly works well, but it only goes up about 36 inches, despite the Tesla maximum height of 45 inches, which I find very strange. Other than that, rigging up a gantry with a chain hoist is our go-to method for 14-16kW wall mount batteries like EG4 and Midnite. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Apr 25, 2025 at 12:48 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Nik, > I have that exact Grainger model. It works great. Cost about $1,100 a year > ago. > > I've hung several Solaredge banks with it. But don't be a dummy like me > and try to lift the battery cabinet off the platform by yourself. > I've done it successfully alone, but not easy. Depends somewhat on the > brand of battery. > > I'd let you borrow it, but It's stored out of state right now. Hope you > are well. > > On Fri, Apr 25, 2025 at 12:37 PM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We're starting to sell the FranklinWH batteries. Realizing that they're >> VERY heavy we had a lifting dolly on order but just found out that it still >> hasn't left the factory and is now subject to the ridiculous tariffs. We're >> talking over $3,000 for a friggin handtruck!??? >> >> Does anyone have a recommendation for another way to move these big bois >> around? Is a generic platform lift going to work for us? Something like: >> https://www.grainger.com/product/2MPU6 >> >> >> >> -- >> Nicholas Ponzio >> Building Energy >> http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Apr 25 14:15:06 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2025 14:15:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100s not available In-Reply-To: <98C80A0F-DDD6-41CB-B4AE-77D9D70D2BF5@gmail.com> References: <98C80A0F-DDD6-41CB-B4AE-77D9D70D2BF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: I was just tasked with replacing two fried Conext MPPT 80 600 charge controllers, and after considering the cost, we just went with a Midnite AIO and upgraded the customer's whole system. It was dead easy and cleaned up a lot of unnecessary components. The customer is delighted. It was more expensive to go this way, but the added features and benefits were worth it, plus a new warranty on a line of equipment that is not discontinued. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Apr 25, 2025 at 10:02 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That may be, however it seems from my measuring the efficiency is way > higher than the fm-100 those things get wicked hot( losses). And the > conversion factor within the inverter from PV to Ac is much higher. > > Jay > > > > > > On Apr 25, 2025, at 7:29 AM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > The standby power consumption of one of those inverters is going to be a > lot more than three FM100 controllers. > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > On Fri, Apr 25, 2025 at 8:06 AM Blair May via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I too am NOT excited about the AIO, seems like for off grid clients its a >> nightmare waiting to happen. Sol Ark ….running all your individual strings >> back to the inverter is to say the least a pain, w/ new systems but old >> upgrades? Victron does have Hi voltage & Hi current CCs as well as other >> Manus. All the BOS for replacing older CCs is already on the wall. >> Needless to say this white head still prefers redundancy. Tump >> >> >> On Apr 25, 2025, at 1:30 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> >> I need three FM100 charge controllers but it seems no one has them. It >> has occurred to me that for not much more than the cost of 3 FM100s I can >> buy a Fortress Envy 12K inverter and it will have the capability of 3 >> FM100s plus 12 kW of inverter plus compatibility with the existing Unigy >> battery bank plus future compatibility with Lithium batteries. The same >> applies for the Sol-Arc, and the Midnight AIO and probably others. >> >> >> Since my first Radio Shack separate amp and tuner, I have always favored >> a component approach to systems. With Outback apparently circling the >> drain or generally being unavailable, I am starting the see the appeal of >> the new AIO inverters. The AIOs have a wide voltage range on the MPPT >> inputs making stringing less problematic. >> >> >> I ordered a Sol-Arc 12K for my property to load shift and solve my NEM3 >> dilemma. With CTs on the service I can run my home on batteries from >> sun-down to sun-up and avoid being screwed by PG&E. >> >> >> It’s hard keeping up with all of the new technology but we are getting >> new tools to solve design problems. >> >> >> William >> >> >> Miller Solar >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Apr 25 14:20:11 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2025 14:20:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pytes E-Box 48100 batteries with Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: <03599E69-ECAC-45C4-B988-E9049A7ED547@mavericksolar.com> References: <0A92A864-0069-4F01-B210-F6F533D92482@mavericksolar.com> <03599E69-ECAC-45C4-B988-E9049A7ED547@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: I can confirm that the Midnite AIO works in closed loop with Pytes E-Box batteries. Maverick's instructions helped me with the dip switch settings on the Pytes host battery (dduudd), and setting the AIO to PYLON protocol was all that was needed to get them talking to each other. The AIO can use the battery SOC percentage for setpoints, and the current SOC from the battery is displayed on the AIO and in the Midnite app. Note that if you connect the cable and set the protocol to PYLON without setting the dip switches, the inverter seemingly gets the SOC percentage from the batteries, but will not charge from solar or generator (and presumably grid, but I did not have that to test). Thanks again for the help, and I hope this helps someone else with AIO/Pytes integration. FYI, my research indicates that this might not work with the Pytes v5 batteries, but I do not know that to be the case for sure. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Apr 23, 2025 at 10:01 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > > Here is the Pytes Integration Guide for Outback and Schneider. From that, > you can glean the setting for open loop. Bottom Line: 56 ABS is fine and 54 > FLT is also fine. > > Also, I made running list of setting from just about every LiFePO4 battery > out there and I decided to lower ABS to 3.45Vpc (55.2) and float also > higher (to accommodate SellRE). And I absorb much longer (which only > technically happens when off grid, since SellRE voltage is also set to a > reasonable number. I usually run my own Radian as Mini-Grid with 8 Pytes in > parallel (with 8 eFLEX). The SOC on all 16 batteries usually tracks within > 10%. > > This sheet is my opiinion and should be taken as such. I also update this > every chance I need to as I learn more. I commonly revisit battery banks > and add new information. > > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* > * • Solar Commander Remote Power* > > * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection *maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > On Apr 23, 2025, at 5:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > > Maverick's advice was tremendously helpful. > > My first Midnite AIO install was successful. The physical installation > went very smoothly considering it was a retrofit and we had to live with > what was there already. The programming took a couple of calls to tech > support. > > I connected the Pytes E-Box stack to the AIO with an Ethernet cable and > with PYLON selected I was able to see the battery SOC of 45%, which matched > the LEDs on the batteries. But the AIO would not charge from solar or > generator. I was confused about this and it was getting late, so I > unplugged the cable and set the AIO to Lithium No BMS and it started > charging instantly. So something with the battery comms was telling the AIO > not to charge. I need to take another run at this and make sure the dip > switches were set correctly. I really want to get closed loop comms working > here. > > I still don't have the manufacturer voltage setpoints for the Pytes, so I > set them to what I think is reasonable for now at 56.0V absorb and 54.0V > float. It seems impossible to contact Pytes by phone, so if anyone has the > setpoints documented, I would love to get those. > > Here are some lessons learned and odd quirks about the Midnite AIO in > general. > > - Only bring battery cables into the leftmost knockout. Otherwise they > will make accessing the MPPT inputs difficult. > - Read the manual for startup instructions. The first time you start it > must be from the app. The physical button won't work. > - If you have a Samsung Galaxy Fold, the WiFi settings can only be set if > the phone is closed. > - The Smart Load outputs will not work unless the main 100A Load Output > breaker is on. This was driving me crazy. The whole home only needs 50A, so > I was using the 50A Smart Load Output only due to existing wire size. It > would not come on even though it was programmed to be on all the time. I > finally realized the smart load breakers get their input from the main > breaker output. That is not at all apparent (and not documented). > - It's a little hard to see the MPPT inputs unless you get the right > angle. More importantly, check the polarity very carefully. The individual > inputs have negative on the left. This could easily be mistaken since the > battery inputs have positive on the left. I wish they made this consistent. > - The Neutral bus also puts wires in front of the MPPTs. If you can land > your PV strings first, that is highly recommended. > - I was surprised to see that the app has no individual MPPT performance > data. I'll have to check out the desktop version. I hope that data is > available. > > That's all for now. If I gather more tips on my next trip, I'll add them > here. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, Apr 21, 2025, 11:43 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason >> >> I think you are in good shape. >> >> I’ve installed about 40 of them mostly on Sol-Ark. closed loop. >> >> 1. I also have 8 Pytes connected to Schneider InsightHome. I set the >> Pytes to Luxpower ( dduudd ) which means 001100 on the 6-pin dip switch. >> BLU & BLU-wht (pin 4 & 5) at the CAN port of the battery. InsightHome >> thinks it is talking to Pylon batteries. >> >> 2. Also, when I plug the MidNite Powerflo16 into insight home, same >> story: BLU & BLU-wht (pin 4 & 5) at the CAN port of the Powerflo16 to >> Insight, which thinks it’s talking to a Pylon battery. >> >> Therefore: put the Pytes DIP to 001100 and use standard rj-45 cable to >> AIO. They will talk to each other as Pylon protocol. >> >> If AIO has Pylon as a setting maybe that’s better. Maybe it will also >> work with MidNite battery setting in the AIO? >> >> Also, the 4-pin vs 6-pin batteries may have a different firmware version, >> so make the master a six pin. Just set the 6-pin on the master and leave >> the rest of the battery dips off. It’s easy to upgrade the firmware via >> HyperTerminal and that might be a different truck roll. >> >> Wire the Pytes Link ports, master link1 to slave link0 (slave link1 to >> next slave link0), last slave link0 is open. Turn on all the rocker >> switches, then press the Master RED SW button. If all other batteries wake >> each other up, you’re good! >> >> I have a ton of Pytes resources. >> >> >> >> pytes-v5-quick-start-guide >> >> PDF Document · 983 KB >> >> >> >> >> >> P.S. the MidNite Pro App to setup the inverter the AIO installer / >> editing password is superadmin, all lower case. >> >> I installed my first MNS AIO today. I still need to setup installer >> verses user concept, but it was straightforward beyond that. >> >> I have open loop settings as well that I set for Outback, etc. I can send >> those as well. >> >> I’m interested to see how it goes!! Send photos. ;-) >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >> On Apr 21, 2025, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> I have a client with eight Pytes batteries (not v5) where I am upgrading >> them to a Midnite AIO tomorrow on an emergency basis. I can't find any >> integration information, so I assume they cannot talk in a closed loop. >> That's okay, however, I also can't find charge voltage set points for these >> batteries anywhere. >> >> Does anybody know the absorb and float voltage of these 51.2V nominal >> batteries? >> >> Also, I noticed some of the batteries have six dip switches, and some >> have four. I assume these are just different versions. Anything I should be >> aware of? It looks like they simply Daisy chain together with ethernet >> cable for battery comms. No dip switch settings are required for inter >> battery communication. It looks like the dip switches are just for inverter >> comms. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Apr 26 09:30:06 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2025 09:30:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar CS3K-305MS Message-ID: I'm looking for a Canadian Solar CS3K-305MS. Please contact me off-list if you happen to have one available. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun Apr 27 15:29:53 2025 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2025 12:29:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO response In-Reply-To: References: <0A92A864-0069-4F01-B210-F6F533D92482@mavericksolar.com> <03599E69-ECAC-45C4-B988-E9049A7ED547@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches,             Sorry, this started a month ago, I contacted Ryan at Midnite during a wrench discussion about their AIO.  I finally got a go ahead about some of the issues Ray had concerning Midnite's AIO and the time to post the response (in Red) from Ryan, below.  Hopefully this helps. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up -------- Forwarded Message -------- *Subject: * Re: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Inverter products, monitoring *Date: * Thu, 27 Mar 2025 09:59:59 -0600 *From: * Ray Walters via RE-wrenches *Reply-To: * RE-wrenches *To: * re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *CC: * Ray Walters Firmware updates of the Midnite AIO are Not via the app.  You have to get a special dongle thing from Midnite, and Yes use a Windows based laptop to do it. Not so, users can update firmware through the app/portal no laptops etc needed. You should do a factory restore and restart the machine after. We of course only recommend updating if there is a feature/bug you want or need to fix 2nd issue:  you can not do any programming or change voltage settings on the inverter itself, everything is through the phone app. Correct, or over the portal etc 3rd issue: the App doesn't always work, and I had to download it and delete it, redownload it 5 times, before I could finally connect to the AIO.  I was in Puerto Rico with very poor cell service, so Frustration levels were very high. Have not had any complaints yet on this one, I am assuming maybe it has something to do with the poor data connection? 4th issue: if you turn on the AIO without doing the programming setup, you can lock the inverter. Stupid me thought I could just turn the inverter ON, and it would start inverting.  It took several hours to get it to work and take the programming.  I was literally about to Cry.  I've been in offgrid solar since 1988, and this was one of the worst experiences I've ever had.  Luckily Midnite support is excellent, and they hung in there until we finally got it. Yes you need to go through some basic programming, The most common issue I see is people get inpatient and press a lot of buttons and the inverter will hang up. If this happens power down for 15 minutes and then power on with patience 5th issue: programming doesn't necessarily take the first time, and I had to change settings sometimes 3 times, before it would finally take.  My confidence level that it will do what I thought is low.  Leaving it in a remote location, with no one local knowledgeable to correct issues, is seriously troubling. This also is a first, I wonder if it is also related to the poor data connection or if the unit was running at the time. Like other inverters we need to be in standby for settings to be saved Once again, regardless of manufacturer, ALL AIOs are made in China, designed in China, programmed in China, and are IMO, not suitable for off grid remote applications.  They are for DIY folks and avg. grid tie solar companies that want to play around with GTB.  I've tried Solark, Midnite, Fortress, EG4, and all have not instilled confidence, and/ or had major problems off grid.  Fine for GTB, but live full time on it?  Stake your family's lives on it?  NO WAY. I'm willing to try the Rosie for my next off grid job, because I still trust Midnite, and because I just don't see any good alternatives, now that Magnum and Outback are down.   BTW, I still have old Trace SWs inverting their hearts' out.  Not ready to replace them. Ray Walters Remote Solar -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Apr 27 16:00:57 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2025 14:00:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO response In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Apr 28 07:52:41 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2025 07:52:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO response In-Reply-To: References: <0A92A864-0069-4F01-B210-F6F533D92482@mavericksolar.com> <03599E69-ECAC-45C4-B988-E9049A7ED547@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Thanks for sharing, Bill. My first AIO installation went well, but I did have to call about a few things, and I did start pushing buttons even though I read the manual and forgot that it said to program through the app and start the system from the app for the first time, not with the power button (silly me). I'll admit I ignored that point in the manual, and I should not have. With that said, I wish the manual were a lot more descriptive about what the settings mean. The wording in the app settings section is ambiguous in some areas. Regarding trusting AIO inverters, I do have reservations, but it seems like this is ultimately going to be the simplest and lowest-cost way to go in the future, and I see the positives outweighing the negatives. The obvious concern is needing redundancy, and having equipment that doesn't have cascading shutdowns when one unit fails (I'm looking at you, Sol-Ark). My solution for now is to stick to one brand and model as much as possible, and I landed on the Midnite AIO. I am keeping one on my shelf at all times to handle emergencies if one needs to be swapped out. I can take a faulty unit back to my shop for diagnostics and warranty processing if necessary. Since swap outs are fast, this should be all I need to provide sufficient customer service in terms of reliability. Single-inverter sites are particularly vulnerable, but that is no different from any other system architecture. I like the idea of not having numerous systems and components out there and needing to "relearn" a system that I haven't seen in a while. I came to this realization as I started taking over dozens of systems that were installed by others, all with varying components, and most that were cobbled together over the years with parts that don't necessarily talk to each other. I can't tell you how many Xantrex and Outback Charge Controllers I have found replaced with Midnite that no longer talk to the rest of the system, and systems with combinations of 150V and 600V charge controllers, and all kinds of cobbled together AGS solutions. It all gets very tricky, and training employees on what to look for can be a daunting task. It all falls on my shoulders. With an AIO, I can easily train employees on how to do swaps and how to diagnose issues much easier. Yes, I am taking the easy way out in some sense. Time will tell if the pros of this approach outweigh the cons. I don't think I am doing my customers a disservice with this approach. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 3:27 PM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > Sorry, this started a month ago, I contacted Ryan at Midnite > during a wrench discussion about their AIO. I finally got a go ahead about > some of the issues Ray had concerning Midnite's AIO and the time to post > the response (in Red) from Ryan, below. Hopefully this helps. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > > *Subject: * > > Re: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Inverter products, monitoring > > *Date: * > > Thu, 27 Mar 2025 09:59:59 -0600 > > *From: * > > Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > > > *Reply-To: * > > RE-wrenches > > > *To: * > > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *CC: * > > Ray Walters > > > > Firmware updates of the Midnite AIO are Not via the app. You have to get > a special dongle thing from Midnite, and Yes use a Windows based laptop to > do it. > > Not so, users can update firmware through the app/portal no laptops etc > needed. You should do a factory restore and restart the machine after. We > of course only recommend updating if there is a feature/bug you want or > need to fix > > 2nd issue: you can not do any programming or change voltage settings on > the inverter itself, everything is through the phone app. Correct, or > over the portal etc > > 3rd issue: the App doesn't always work, and I had to download it and > delete it, redownload it 5 times, before I could finally connect to the > AIO. I was in Puerto Rico with very poor cell service, so Frustration > levels were very high. Have not had any complaints yet on this one, I am > assuming maybe it has something to do with the poor data connection? > > 4th issue: if you turn on the AIO without doing the programming setup, you > can lock the inverter. Stupid me thought I could just turn the inverter ON, > and it would start inverting. It took several hours to get it to work and > take the programming. I was literally about to Cry. I've been in offgrid > solar since 1988, and this was one of the worst experiences I've ever had. > Luckily Midnite support is excellent, and they hung in there until we > finally got it. Yes you need to go through some basic programming, The > most common issue I see is people get inpatient and press a lot of buttons > and the inverter will hang up. If this happens power down for 15 minutes > and then power on with patience > > 5th issue: programming doesn't necessarily take the first time, and I had > to change settings sometimes 3 times, before it would finally take. My > confidence level that it will do what I thought is low. Leaving it in a > remote location, with no one local knowledgeable to correct issues, is > seriously troubling. This also is a first, I wonder if it is also related > to the poor data connection or if the unit was running at the time. Like > other inverters we need to be in standby for settings to be saved > > Once again, regardless of manufacturer, ALL AIOs are made in China, > designed in China, programmed in China, and are IMO, not suitable for off > grid remote applications. They are for DIY folks and avg. grid tie solar > companies that want to play around with GTB. I've tried Solark, Midnite, > Fortress, EG4, and all have not instilled confidence, and/ or had major > problems off grid. Fine for GTB, but live full time on it? Stake your > family's lives on it? NO WAY. > > I'm willing to try the Rosie for my next off grid job, because I still > trust Midnite, and because I just don't see any good alternatives, now that > Magnum and Outback are down. BTW, I still have old Trace SWs inverting > their hearts' out. Not ready to replace them. > > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > <#m_-7174047534068518539_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Apr 29 18:32:11 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2025 18:32:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] iTools Gear Punch and Midnite AIO Message-ID: Hi all, Just a quick tip/warning. We use the iTools Gear Punch extensively, and love it. https://itoolco.com/product/gear-punch-knockout-set-1-2-4/ Unfortunately, the plastic bushings supplied with the Midnite AIO are too large to fit the 2-in knockout holes produced by this gear punch. The 1-1/4 bushings work well. I am going to try to see if another die set works with the punch tool. Does anyone know a brand that works for sure with these bushings? P.S. Some brands of PVC box adapters don't fit well in the holes produced by the iTools die, either. All terminal adapters work in our experience. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 21:50:50 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2025 19:50:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] iTools Gear Punch and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A42BD1-83FB-4D60-9E3A-812D1E836659@gmail.com> That’s pretty cool. Whats its cost? Jay > On Apr 29, 2025, at 4:32 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hi all, > > Just a quick tip/warning. We use the iTools Gear Punch extensively, and love it. > > https://itoolco.com/product/gear-punch-knockout-set-1-2-4/ > > Unfortunately, the plastic bushings supplied with the Midnite AIO are too large to fit the 2-in knockout holes produced by this gear punch. The 1-1/4 bushings work well. > > I am going to try to see if another die set works with the punch tool. Does anyone know a brand that works for sure with these bushings? > > > P.S. Some brands of PVC box adapters don't fit well in the holes produced by the iTools die, either. All terminal adapters work in our experience. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Tue Apr 29 22:01:48 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2025 16:01:48 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] iTools Gear Punch and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: <45A42BD1-83FB-4D60-9E3A-812D1E836659@gmail.com> References: <45A42BD1-83FB-4D60-9E3A-812D1E836659@gmail.com> Message-ID: Aloha All, Thanks for the tip Jason. Great tool! We use it daily. I have not run into any issues with PVC TAs. We mostly use Scepter fitting. $1,028 in 2018. Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 3:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That’s pretty cool. > Whats its cost? > > Jay > > On Apr 29, 2025, at 4:32 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi all, > > Just a quick tip/warning. We use the iTools Gear Punch extensively, and > love it. > > https://itoolco.com/product/gear-punch-knockout-set-1-2-4/ > > Unfortunately, the plastic bushings supplied with the Midnite AIO are too > large to fit the 2-in knockout holes produced by this gear punch. The 1-1/4 > bushings work well. > > I am going to try to see if another die set works with the punch tool. > Does anyone know a brand that works for sure with these bushings? > > > P.S. Some brands of PVC box adapters don't fit well in the holes produced > by the iTools die, either. All terminal adapters work in our experience. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 22:41:28 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2025 19:41:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] iTools Gear Punch and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: <45A42BD1-83FB-4D60-9E3A-812D1E836659@gmail.com> Message-ID: We use the milwaukee cordless 6t k/o tool. It seems to work with most fittings including the MN snap in bushings when knockouts are lined up well. Definitely a tight fit though with bushings and BAs in general. Works great though! On Tue, Apr 29, 2025, 7:03 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Aloha All, > Thanks for the tip Jason. > Great tool! We use it daily. > I have not run into any issues with PVC TAs. We mostly use Scepter fitting. > > $1,028 in 2018. > > Aloha, > Lou Russo > Spree Solar Systems LLC > C-34322 > > > > On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 3:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> That’s pretty cool. >> Whats its cost? >> >> Jay >> >> On Apr 29, 2025, at 4:32 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Hi all, >> >> Just a quick tip/warning. We use the iTools Gear Punch extensively, and >> love it. >> >> https://itoolco.com/product/gear-punch-knockout-set-1-2-4/ >> >> Unfortunately, the plastic bushings supplied with the Midnite AIO are too >> large to fit the 2-in knockout holes produced by this gear punch. The 1-1/4 >> bushings work well. >> >> I am going to try to see if another die set works with the punch tool. >> Does anyone know a brand that works for sure with these bushings? >> >> >> P.S. Some brands of PVC box adapters don't fit well in the holes produced >> by the iTools die, either. All terminal adapters work in our experience. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu May 1 19:20:17 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 1 May 2025 19:20:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO First Impressions Message-ID: Now that I have a single inverter installation and a triple inverter installation under my belt, I'm ready to share my first impressions. Here they are in no particular order. Both systems were in off-grid settings with backup generators connected to the generator smart input. The single inverter is paired with Pytes batteries in closed loop. The second has Lithionics batteries using voltages only. I hope this information and some of these tips are helpful to others. The monitoring system is seriously underwhelming. I was shocked to find out that you can only view each inverter in a system individually. You can't see the total plant solar production or consumption. This makes data gathering pretty useless with this inverter system for multi-inverter installations. Even with single inverter installations, the data is not very robust. And there is no download option (unless you want a picture of a chart, which has very limited utility). On a good note, the programming interface in the app is speedy and fairly intuitive. There is no way to resend login information to the system owner. You can't have multiple logins for people to view the system. The owner has to share their credentials if multiple people want to view data. I know this is all in development, but I feel much of this should have been in place before this product was launched, especially the combined inverter data. "Use Solar Assistant" is not an acceptable workaround for me. I don't need more devices out there to manage. That is the whole appeal of an AIO. I have had issues with connecting all four inverters installed to date to WiFi. They will not work with networks with no password (which Starlink can often be in remote settings). They only play with 2.4 GHz. On my Samsung Galaxy Fold 5, you can't see some information on the connections screen when the phone is open, and you cannot see other information when the screen is closed. I had issues with this device, but also tried with a new iPhone, and it still didn't work. Setting up WiFi immediately after a Factory Reset seemed to work, so maybe that is a best practice. The inverters do strange things at times when "reconnecting" after an off/on cycle, even in an off-grid scenario. Sometimes when you switch a paralleled inverter on, it will start counting down from 900, although it will turn on when the others turn on. Some settings are unclear and not well-documented, if at all. For example, with parallel inverters, you can set a maximum generator input power, which is then propagated to all inverters. But when I set the maximum charge from the generator, it did not seem to propagate that setting, so I changed it manually on each inverter. Maybe this is by design, since you might want to limit charging from the generator on an inverter that has heavy smart loads. I'm just speculating here. I'm still not clear on whether these settings are system-level or per inverter. I have not had enough time to play with the settings and test it out. I had to factory reset inverters in a triple inverter setup when they simply would not turn on, even when taking them out of parallel mode. This might have been due to out of date firmware, which seemed to resolve this issue. The firmware update process performed remotely from Midnite was pretty quick and painless. It factory reset the inverters, but reprogramming goes pretty quickly once you get accustomed to the interface. For some strange reason, in the single inverter system, the smart load output did not energize immediately as expected. It came on suddenly after at least 30 minutes with no explanation why. The app persistently throws an error message that says Generator Abnormal when the generator is off in a off-grid system, even if the generator is supposed to be off. The app has no options for alerts of any kind (push/text/email). There is a real lack of battery integration information out there. Midnite doesn't seem compelled to put out integration guides or offer up much support in this area, understandably because they would want to promote their own batteries. To be fair, Sol-Ark only provides information for battery manufacturers that have partnered with them to establish reliable closed loop comms. When the AIO inverter(s) do "talk" to the battery, there is no obvious indication that closed loop communications have been established. There is no information screen or tab that displays battery information received through the communication bus. The AC wiring is easy and obvious. I really like the simplicity. However, do the AC connections AFTER the AC connections if you want to keep swearing to a minimum. For the individual PV strings, it is hard to read the +/- inputs, and they are hard to see in an awkward location in the enclosure. The order of the battery connections from left to right is +/-. However, the individual PV string inputs are ordered -/+. The combination of these issues makes the PV connections difficult and borderline dangerous. Fortunately, there are test probe holes for each input. Sadly, they are so close together that it is not easy to ensure you have the right one, and it is difficult to get larger probes into them side by side. The parallel communication wiring terminals should be illegal. They are ridiculously hard to get wires into. The terminal block should be removable at a minimum. The plastic bushings supplied are too large for my 2" punch kit. The bushings fit through the AIO openings, but not the wiring trough knockouts I made. I had to use chase nipples instead. The 1-1/4" bushings worked fine with my knockouts. The battery torroids are too small. I had to wrestle with getting two 4/0 cables through the torroid with MagnaLugs, which are a bit thicker than other brands. If you have the option to install lugs after pushing the cables through the torroid, do that. Pro Tip: Install the WiFi dongles before you set your inverters on a wiring trough, especially if you don't have a stubby Phillips screwdriver handy. You will thank me later. Bonus Tip: Don't try to bring the battery cables into the enclosure through any knockout other than the leftmost pre-knocked-out opening. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sat May 3 13:43:29 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2025 10:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Optics RE is down... again... sigh Message-ID: <1746294209.374517502@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img-0.png Type: image/png Size: 540265 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon May 5 11:44:50 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 5 May 2025 11:44:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo EI products Message-ID: Hello, I'm curious if any of you have installed a full Tigo EI system, ie. inverter, batteries, optimizers, etc.Opinons? Thanks. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue May 6 14:20:09 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 6 May 2025 11:20:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Explosion proof ceiling fan Message-ID: <77835f3af9807be52f0c3b6d81ca8891@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I have two flooded battery arrays that have steel cases that are corroding. I am sure poor ventilation is the issue even though we have passive vents high and low. I think I need active ventilation. Does anyone have knowledge of a 120VAC explosion proof ceiling mounted exhaust fan? Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue May 6 15:07:30 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 6 May 2025 13:07:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Explosion proof ceiling fan In-Reply-To: <77835f3af9807be52f0c3b6d81ca8891@mail.gmail.com> References: <77835f3af9807be52f0c3b6d81ca8891@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William; Poor ventilation could be part of it, but I've also seen corrosion problems from: clients over filling the cells, EQing to often, absorption voltage set too high and for too long, too high a charge rate, (too large an array) too high a temperature, due to floor heating and/or insulated battery box. my best systems seem to be on the lower side of array size relative to battery size, with batteries in a basement or garage that stays above freezing, but below 60F most of the year. Sorry I don't have a line on explosion proof fans, but I have a client with a 120 vac radon blower for the battery exhaust that seems to do much better than the traditional DC battery fans. (Not my install.)  I've only seen batteries blow twice: 1) Idiot was arc welding next to a HUP battery and multiple large sparks went right on to a cap; result: blew the top off the cell. He had been told to construct a battery enclosure around the batteries, but never did. 2) a loose connection at a battery terminal arced, melted the lead until the molten lead melted through the top of the case and ignited the hydrogen, result: burned a clear flame for a few seconds and went out without any major damage. So my take away is that unless the ignition source is in the cell or within an inch of the cap, the hydrogen is too low a concentration to ignite.  Actually, are lead acid battery internal plates and their external connections considered "explosion proof"? Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/6/2025 12:20 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > I have two flooded battery arrays that have steel cases that are > corroding.  I am sure poor ventilation is the issue even though we > have passive vents high and low.  I think I need active ventilation. > > Does anyone have knowledge of a 120VAC explosion proof ceiling mounted > exhaust fan? > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue May 6 15:20:22 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 6 May 2025 12:20:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Explosion proof ceiling fan In-Reply-To: References: <77835f3af9807be52f0c3b6d81ca8891@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Put the fan at the intake near floor level and a passive vent at the ceiling On Tue, May 6, 2025, 12:09 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi William; > > Poor ventilation could be part of it, but I've also seen corrosion > problems from: > clients over filling the cells, > EQing to often, > absorption voltage set too high and for too long, > too high a charge rate, (too large an array) > too high a temperature, due to floor heating and/or insulated battery box. > > my best systems seem to be on the lower side of array size relative to > battery size, with batteries in a basement or garage that stays above > freezing, but below 60F most of the year. > > Sorry I don't have a line on explosion proof fans, but I have a client > with a 120 vac radon blower for the battery exhaust that seems to do much > better than the traditional DC battery fans. (Not my install.) > > I've only seen batteries blow twice: > 1) Idiot was arc welding next to a HUP battery and multiple large sparks > went right on to a cap; result: blew the top off the cell. He had been told > to construct a battery enclosure around the batteries, but never did. > 2) a loose connection at a battery terminal arced, melted the lead until > the molten lead melted through the top of the case and ignited the > hydrogen, result: burned a clear flame for a few seconds and went out > without any major damage. > > So my take away is that unless the ignition source is in the cell or > within an inch of the cap, the hydrogen is too low a concentration to > ignite. Actually, are lead acid battery internal plates and their external > connections considered "explosion proof"? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > > On 5/6/2025 12:20 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I have two flooded battery arrays that have steel cases that are > corroding. I am sure poor ventilation is the issue even though we have > passive vents high and low. I think I need active ventilation. > > > > Does anyone have knowledge of a 120VAC explosion proof ceiling mounted > exhaust fan? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 6 15:34:03 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 6 May 2025 13:34:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Explosion proof ceiling fan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9289426A-5441-444A-8AC7-69F08F431D2F@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue May 6 15:47:10 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 6 May 2025 13:47:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Explosion proof ceiling fan In-Reply-To: References: <77835f3af9807be52f0c3b6d81ca8891@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <08c4f757-6612-40c0-9342-3e2c94d7a05f@solarray.com> Putting the fan on the intake causes the battery box to be at higher pressure.  You don't want the pressure in the battery box to be higher than the surrounding room, or it will push the H2S into the room through any cracks.   You want to create a vacuum (lower pressure) in the battery box, so that the H2S is less likely to enter the room, and is drawn out.  That's why we always put the fan on the exhaust side. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/6/2025 1:20 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > Put the fan at the intake near floor level and a passive vent at the > ceiling > > > > On Tue, May 6, 2025, 12:09 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi William; > > Poor ventilation could be part of it, but I've also seen corrosion > problems from: > clients over filling the cells, > EQing to often, > absorption voltage set too high and for too long, > too high a charge rate, (too large an array) > too high a temperature, due to floor heating and/or insulated > battery box. > > my best systems seem to be on the lower side of array size > relative to battery size, with batteries in a basement or garage > that stays above freezing, but below 60F most of the year. > > Sorry I don't have a line on explosion proof fans, but I have a > client with a 120 vac radon blower for the battery exhaust that > seems to do much better than the traditional DC battery fans.  > (Not my install.) > >  I've only seen batteries blow twice: > 1) Idiot was arc welding next to a HUP battery and multiple large > sparks went right on to a cap; result: blew the top off the cell. > He had been told to construct a battery enclosure around the > batteries, but never did. > 2) a loose connection at a battery terminal arced, melted the lead > until the molten lead melted through the top of the case and > ignited the hydrogen, result: burned a clear flame for a few > seconds and went out without any major damage. > > So my take away is that unless the ignition source is in the cell > or within an inch of the cap, the hydrogen is too low a > concentration to ignite.  Actually, are lead acid battery internal > plates and their external connections considered "explosion proof"? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > > On 5/6/2025 12:20 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> I have two flooded battery arrays that have steel cases that are >> corroding.  I am sure poor ventilation is the issue even though >> we have passive vents high and low.  I think I need active >> ventilation. >> >> Does anyone have knowledge of a 120VAC explosion proof ceiling >> mounted exhaust fan? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed May 7 12:44:41 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 07 May 2025 12:44:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Further Followup Radian 8048 incorrect high voltage reading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5cbd1a4a86e14c0112150b73f00264e1@redwoodalliance.org> The issue was the Radian 8048 disconnected from the grid on an incorrect high voltage reading. Remaking the connection to the ribbon cables seemed to solve the problem...temporarily. After about a week, the problem came back. This time I treated the all the contacts with the antioxidant that comes in the small tubes. All seemed well for a while, then the problem returned, and is no longer intermittent. Wiggling the cable connections made no difference. I took a close up photo of the control module as suggested, and can see no broken solder joints. I tried turning off the power modules, one at a time, but no difference. I have checked all the settings, then did a factory reset on the unit. I had an extra ribbon cable, so was able to swap cables around. The problem did not change. Does this seem like a defective control module with no solution other than replacing it? Thanks, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-04-09 13:04, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > For a followup, it appears that the problem was in a ribbon cable > connection. After checking the power wiring and starting the inverter > again, the problem still remained. > > Then, I disconnected and reconnected the ribbon cables at both ends. On > restart, the voltage was with 6 V of the multi meter reading. I > adjusted this out with the offset in the calibration menu. The voltage > has read steady for a day now. > > Thank you! > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH Electrical Contractor License 44810 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional > 740-856-9648 > > --- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 4b443fa4.png Type: image/png Size: 501860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 7 13:17:06 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 7 May 2025 11:17:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Further Followup Radian 8048 incorrect high voltage reading In-Reply-To: <5cbd1a4a86e14c0112150b73f00264e1@redwoodalliance.org> References: <5cbd1a4a86e14c0112150b73f00264e1@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <0ECA505E-EA1C-4F92-8D01-F0293E2FDD4C@gmail.com> I don’t know if you can get any help from OB. Have you tried Zonna? And yes the boards have been a weak link in that design. Is this a 8048 or a 8048A? > On May 7, 2025, at 10:46 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > The issue was the Radian 8048 disconnected from the grid on an incorrect high voltage reading. Remaking the connection to the ribbon cables seemed to solve the problem...temporarily. > > After about a week, the problem came back. This time I treated the all the contacts with the antioxidant that comes in the small tubes. All seemed well for a while, then the problem returned, and is no longer intermittent. > > Wiggling the cable connections made no difference. > > I took a close up photo of the control module as suggested, and can see no broken solder joints. > > <4b443fa4.png> > > I tried turning off the power modules, one at a time, but no difference. I have checked all the settings, then did a factory reset on the unit. I had an extra ribbon cable, so was able to swap cables around. The problem did not change. > > Does this seem like a defective control module with no solution other than replacing it? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > --- > > > >> On 2025-04-09 13:04, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> >> For a followup, it appears that the problem was in a ribbon cable connection. After checking the power wiring and starting the inverter again, the problem still remained. >> >> Then, I disconnected and reconnected the ribbon cables at both ends. On restart, the voltage was with 6 V of the multi meter reading. I adjusted this out with the offset in the calibration menu. The voltage has read steady for a day now. >> >> Thank you! >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> OH Electrical Contractor License 44810 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional >> 740-856-9648 >> >> >> --- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu May 8 15:21:50 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 8 May 2025 15:21:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell damage leading to ground fault? Message-ID: Hello, There is an installation that I am servicing with the Q.Peak G4 modules, where one cell has some visible damage. I am wondering whether this type damage can lead to a ground fault? The Fronius inverter on site is picking up an "Insulation Resist" error. I am wondering whether this could be the cause, or whether I should look elsewhere in the array. A photo is attached. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks! Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Cell damage.png Type: image/png Size: 348668 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu May 8 15:36:38 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 8 May 2025 15:36:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Whole House RO Message-ID: Water pump is not my strong suit. I usually leave that up to the experts around here. Unfortunately, the experts are clueless when it comes to off-grid living. I have a client with a setup that is pretty unworkable. I'm trying to give him some general guidance. The setup uses a brackish water (might as well be salt water) very shallow well. It is about 3 ft underground for the water table. The RO system installer has a 1 HP 1.25 SF Century centrifugal surface pump drawing water from the well and pressurizing the inlet of a StaRite 1.25 HP booster pump designed for about 10 GPM at 150 PSI to run water through the RO system. Both of the pumps run simultaneously and continuously when producing water, and the water production is ridiculously low. I understand that RO production is going to be slow, but the amount of power these pumps are using is pure insanity. I have advised the client that, at a minimum, this system needs to be on a smart load circuit to run only when there is adequate battery capacity. The startup surgery is not a concern, but it does flicker the lights and it makes quite the racket. My thoughts are that the well pump is drastically oversized. The booster pump only needs 10 gallons per minute, and it has a suction head of 15 ft. I don't even know if the well pump pressurizing the booster pump inlet is required. I'm thinking we should be slow pumping water into an interim holding tank at least at the height of the booster pump. At a minimum, the well pump should be on a pressure switch with pressure tank so it can cycle. Can anyone give me some general guidance, and perhaps a VFD pump that does not have the startup surge and is maybe more efficient? During times of heavy use, the RO system can easily eat up half of the PV produced during a day at this site. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu May 8 15:40:47 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 8 May 2025 15:40:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell damage leading to ground fault? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is this a single series string? Can you make a jumper and skip over the panel to test the string without the bad panel in series? If the error does not return, that could be the answer you are looking for. If there are parallel strings, jumper over one panel in each string. I'm not sure about damaged individual cells, but I am learning very quickly that solar panels that are submerged by hurricane storm surge are very likely to result in a PV Insulation Resistance fault. Yep, I have to deal with panels that have been swimming. Fun stuff. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, May 8, 2025, 3:23 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello, > > There is an installation that I am servicing with the Q.Peak G4 modules, > where one cell has some visible damage. I am wondering whether this type > damage can lead to a ground fault? The Fronius inverter on site is > picking up an "Insulation Resist" error. I am wondering whether this could > be the cause, or whether I should look elsewhere in the array. A photo is > attached. Any thoughts would be appreciated. > > Thanks! > Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. > > > | Ithaca, > NY 14850 > > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Thu May 8 15:50:02 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Thu, 8 May 2025 12:50:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Whole House RO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’ve had good experience with installing a five or 10 second delay on one of the pumps. This way the pumps’ start-current spikes are staggered On Thu, May 8, 2025 at 12:38 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Water pump is not my strong suit. I usually leave that up to the experts > around here. Unfortunately, the experts are clueless when it comes to > off-grid living. I have a client with a setup that is pretty unworkable. > I'm trying to give him some general guidance. > > The setup uses a brackish water (might as well be salt water) very shallow > well. It is about 3 ft underground for the water table. The RO system > installer has a 1 HP 1.25 SF Century centrifugal surface pump drawing water > from the well and pressurizing the inlet of a StaRite 1.25 HP booster pump > designed for about 10 GPM at 150 PSI to run water through the RO system. > > Both of the pumps run simultaneously and continuously when producing > water, and the water production is ridiculously low. I understand that RO > production is going to be slow, but the amount of power these pumps are > using is pure insanity. I have advised the client that, at a minimum, this > system needs to be on a smart load circuit to run only when there is > adequate battery capacity. The startup surgery is not a concern, but it > does flicker the lights and it makes quite the racket. > > My thoughts are that the well pump is drastically oversized. The booster > pump only needs 10 gallons per minute, and it has a suction head of 15 ft. > I don't even know if the well pump pressurizing the booster pump inlet is > required. I'm thinking we should be slow pumping water into an interim > holding tank at least at the height of the booster pump. At a minimum, the > well pump should be on a pressure switch with pressure tank so it can > cycle. > > Can anyone give me some general guidance, and perhaps a VFD pump that does > not have the startup surge and is maybe more efficient? During times of > heavy use, the RO system can easily eat up half of the PV produced during a > day at this site. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu May 8 15:53:03 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 8 May 2025 15:53:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell damage leading to ground fault? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, There are just two strings of panels, each going to their own MPPT. I could certainly bypass this module. Unfortunately though, the fault is intermittent, so it would take a while to know whether this was the issue or not. But this is the only cell that looks like this in the entire array. I have also been to this site once already recently to remedy some squirrel damage. So it is possible as well that there is more squirrel damage that we did not find in that first visit. Cheers, Dave On Thu, May 8, 2025 at 3:41 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Is this a single series string? Can you make a jumper and skip over the > panel to test the string without the bad panel in series? If the error does > not return, that could be the answer you are looking for. > > If there are parallel strings, jumper over one panel in each string. > > I'm not sure about damaged individual cells, but I am learning very > quickly that solar panels that are submerged by hurricane storm surge are > very likely to result in a PV Insulation Resistance fault. Yep, I have to > deal with panels that have been swimming. Fun stuff. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Thu, May 8, 2025, 3:23 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> There is an installation that I am servicing with the Q.Peak G4 modules, >> where one cell has some visible damage. I am wondering whether this type >> damage can lead to a ground fault? The Fronius inverter on site is >> picking up an "Insulation Resist" error. I am wondering whether this could >> be the cause, or whether I should look elsewhere in the array. A photo is >> attached. Any thoughts would be appreciated. >> >> Thanks! >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >> >> >> | Ithaca, >> NY 14850 >> >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Thu May 8 15:55:51 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Thu, 8 May 2025 12:55:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell damage leading to ground fault? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fronius install manual says the conduit entry ports need to be packed with putty around the wires. They’re the only manufacturer I know of that requires this. Water vapor roses into the circuit boards. I used to get a couple different error codes until we packed the conduits. Good luck, and let us know! On Thu, May 8, 2025 at 12:22 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello, > > There is an installation that I am servicing with the Q.Peak G4 modules, > where one cell has some visible damage. I am wondering whether this type > damage can lead to a ground fault? The Fronius inverter on site is > picking up an "Insulation Resist" error. I am wondering whether this could > be the cause, or whether I should look elsewhere in the array. A photo is > attached. Any thoughts would be appreciated. > > Thanks! > Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. > > > | Ithaca, > NY 14850 > > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu May 8 16:26:05 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 8 May 2025 13:26:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell damage leading to ground fault? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, David, Module damage can lead to system faults like the old school GFI or the new insulation Resistance, an IR Curve tester can find quite a few issues but GFI might be more difficult depending on what is going on, Fun times On Thu, May 8, 2025, 12:56 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Fronius install manual says the conduit entry ports need to be packed with > putty around the wires. They’re the only manufacturer I know of that > requires this. Water vapor roses into the circuit boards. I used to get > a couple different error codes until we packed the conduits. > Good luck, and let us know! > > > > On Thu, May 8, 2025 at 12:22 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> There is an installation that I am servicing with the Q.Peak G4 modules, >> where one cell has some visible damage. I am wondering whether this type >> damage can lead to a ground fault? The Fronius inverter on site is >> picking up an "Insulation Resist" error. I am wondering whether this could >> be the cause, or whether I should look elsewhere in the array. A photo is >> attached. Any thoughts would be appreciated. >> >> Thanks! >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >> >> >> | Ithaca, >> NY 14850 >> >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: >> (607) >> 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu May 8 17:12:00 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 8 May 2025 17:12:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell damage leading to ground fault? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Inspectors in my area require the conduit terminations be packed with duct seal for this reason to avoid condensation build up in j boxes. Every intermittent insulation/isolation test failure I’ve ever meggered and resolved has been the result of moisture, either condensation or heavy rain permeating a termination enclosure, or a defective panel admitting moisture. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Thu, May 8, 2025 at 3:57 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Fronius install manual says the conduit entry ports need to be packed with > putty around the wires. They’re the only manufacturer I know of that > requires this. Water vapor roses into the circuit boards. I used to get > a couple different error codes until we packed the conduits. > Good luck, and let us know! > > > > On Thu, May 8, 2025 at 12:22 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> There is an installation that I am servicing with the Q.Peak G4 modules, >> where one cell has some visible damage. I am wondering whether this type >> damage can lead to a ground fault? The Fronius inverter on site is >> picking up an "Insulation Resist" error. I am wondering whether this could >> be the cause, or whether I should look elsewhere in the array. A photo is >> attached. Any thoughts would be appreciated. >> >> Thanks! >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >> >> >> | Ithaca, >> NY 14850 >> >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: >> (607) >> 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu May 8 18:21:22 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 8 May 2025 15:21:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Whole House RO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22C652E5-BB0F-4624-8342-37CC2ACB3E3C@gmail.com> Hi Jason What’s the actual water output from The RO? We had one at our house before I took it out and replaced the house water with rainwater catchment. 3 yrs and counting in the high desert. I couldn’t live with the 2-3 to 1 loss ratio. A few options as I suspect the actual RO output is closer to 1-2 gpm. 1. Use a 1/3hp well pump into a large pressure tank with relatively low pressure switch. You might even get away with a small sump pump. The RO should t need but minimal input pressure 2. Assuming the RO system doesn’t need rhe 1.25hp pump ( i am assuming the RO goes into a tank and much then has a pressure pump to supply the house. If it doesn’t I would recommend installing said design) I’d install a smaller motor and pump head to better match the RO flow rate. You could look at getting a high efficiency DC pump or 3 phase with vfd. Sun pumps has such things. Jay > On May 8, 2025, at 12:38 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Water pump is not my strong suit. I usually leave that up to the experts around here. Unfortunately, the experts are clueless when it comes to off-grid living. I have a client with a setup that is pretty unworkable. I'm trying to give him some general guidance. > > The setup uses a brackish water (might as well be salt water) very shallow well. It is about 3 ft underground for the water table. The RO system installer has a 1 HP 1.25 SF Century centrifugal surface pump drawing water from the well and pressurizing the inlet of a StaRite 1.25 HP booster pump designed for about 10 GPM at 150 PSI to run water through the RO system. > > Both of the pumps run simultaneously and continuously when producing water, and the water production is ridiculously low. I understand that RO production is going to be slow, but the amount of power these pumps are using is pure insanity. I have advised the client that, at a minimum, this system needs to be on a smart load circuit to run only when there is adequate battery capacity. The startup surgery is not a concern, but it does flicker the lights and it makes quite the racket. > > My thoughts are that the well pump is drastically oversized. The booster pump only needs 10 gallons per minute, and it has a suction head of 15 ft. I don't even know if the well pump pressurizing the booster pump inlet is required. I'm thinking we should be slow pumping water into an interim holding tank at least at the height of the booster pump. At a minimum, the well pump should be on a pressure switch with pressure tank so it can cycle. > > Can anyone give me some general guidance, and perhaps a VFD pump that does not have the startup surge and is maybe more efficient? During times of heavy use, the RO system can easily eat up half of the PV produced during a day at this site. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From david at evcl.com Thu May 8 21:26:59 2025 From: david at evcl.com (David Coale) Date: Thu, 8 May 2025 18:26:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell damage leading to ground fault? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am having the same issue, but it is with an SMA inverter. In my case it happens when it is raining and clears up when it dries out. I can see there are some bad cells, but they are right next to the edge of the panel so a moisture problem would show up this way. Good to know about sealing the conduits. In your case, you should be able to disconnect the suspected string or jump around the suspected panel and figure this out. Other wise I would blame it on the squirrels. But then again, I blame everything on rogue squirrels or rats. David > On May 8, 2025, at 12:55 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Fronius install manual says the conduit entry ports need to be packed with putty around the wires. They’re the only manufacturer I know of that requires this. Water vapor roses into the circuit boards. I used to get a couple different error codes until we packed the conduits. > Good luck, and let us know! > > > > On Thu, May 8, 2025 at 12:22 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Hello, > > There is an installation that I am servicing with the Q.Peak G4 modules, where one cell has some visible damage. I am wondering whether this type damage can lead to a ground fault? The Fronius inverter on site is picking up an "Insulation Resist" error. I am wondering whether this could be the cause, or whether I should look elsewhere in the array. A photo is attached. Any thoughts would be appreciated. > > Thanks! > Dave > > -- > > > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd.   | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu May 8 22:39:33 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 8 May 2025 19:39:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell damage leading to ground fault? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <519C41FC-F6F6-4783-8974-B1AA4178B257@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri May 9 11:09:26 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 09 May 2025 11:09:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Whole House RO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29d44573eea1527b261f47b82d8b2598@redwoodalliance.org> Is using roof water and a cistern out of the question? _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-05-08 15:36, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Water pump is not my strong suit. I usually leave that up to the > experts around here. Unfortunately, the experts are clueless when it > comes to off-grid living. I have a client with a setup that is pretty > unworkable. I'm trying to give him some general guidance. > > The setup uses a brackish water (might as well be salt water) very > shallow well. It is about 3 ft underground for the water table. The RO > system installer has a 1 HP 1.25 SF Century centrifugal surface pump > drawing water from the well and pressurizing the inlet of a StaRite > 1.25 HP booster pump designed for about 10 GPM at 150 PSI to run water > through the RO system. > > Both of the pumps run simultaneously and continuously when producing > water, and the water production is ridiculously low. I understand that > RO production is going to be slow, but the amount of power these pumps > are using is pure insanity. I have advised the client that, at a > minimum, this system needs to be on a smart load circuit to run only > when there is adequate battery capacity. The startup surgery is not a > concern, but it does flicker the lights and it makes quite the racket. > > My thoughts are that the well pump is drastically oversized. The > booster pump only needs 10 gallons per minute, and it has a suction > head of 15 ft. I don't even know if the well pump pressurizing the > booster pump inlet is required. I'm thinking we should be slow pumping > water into an interim holding tank at least at the height of the > booster pump. At a minimum, the well pump should be on a pressure > switch with pressure tank so it can cycle. > > Can anyone give me some general guidance, and perhaps a VFD pump that > does not have the startup surge and is maybe more efficient? During > times of heavy use, the RO system can easily eat up half of the PV > produced during a day at this site. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri May 9 13:03:43 2025 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Fri, 9 May 2025 13:03:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Whole House RO In-Reply-To: <29d44573eea1527b261f47b82d8b2598@redwoodalliance.org> References: <29d44573eea1527b261f47b82d8b2598@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <001701dbc104$52bf4ba0$f83de2e0$@mindspring.com> Jason We have worked with customers that have gone the rainwater route. They take it off a roof and run it into a 1000 to 3000 gallon tank. Then they use a 1/2 hp pump through a simple but extremely effective 3 stage filter with an incredible UV filter. A lot less power used with very clean water. Peter Giroux ASAE From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, May 9, 2025 11:09 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Whole House RO Is using roof water and a cistern out of the question? Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2025-05-08 15:36, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: Water pump is not my strong suit. I usually leave that up to the experts around here. Unfortunately, the experts are clueless when it comes to off-grid living. I have a client with a setup that is pretty unworkable. I'm trying to give him some general guidance. The setup uses a brackish water (might as well be salt water) very shallow well. It is about 3 ft underground for the water table. The RO system installer has a 1 HP 1.25 SF Century centrifugal surface pump drawing water from the well and pressurizing the inlet of a StaRite 1.25 HP booster pump designed for about 10 GPM at 150 PSI to run water through the RO system. Both of the pumps run simultaneously and continuously when producing water, and the water production is ridiculously low. I understand that RO production is going to be slow, but the amount of power these pumps are using is pure insanity. I have advised the client that, at a minimum, this system needs to be on a smart load circuit to run only when there is adequate battery capacity. The startup surgery is not a concern, but it does flicker the lights and it makes quite the racket. My thoughts are that the well pump is drastically oversized. The booster pump only needs 10 gallons per minute, and it has a suction head of 15 ft. I don't even know if the well pump pressurizing the booster pump inlet is required. I'm thinking we should be slow pumping water into an interim holding tank at least at the height of the booster pump. At a minimum, the well pump should be on a pressure switch with pressure tank so it can cycle. Can anyone give me some general guidance, and perhaps a VFD pump that does not have the startup surge and is maybe more efficient? During times of heavy use, the RO system can easily eat up half of the PV produced during a day at this site. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri May 9 13:11:14 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 9 May 2025 13:11:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell damage leading to ground fault? In-Reply-To: <519C41FC-F6F6-4783-8974-B1AA4178B257@gmail.com> References: <519C41FC-F6F6-4783-8974-B1AA4178B257@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, Not a bad idea to spray the array down in general. That would certainly help if I can recreate the issue, and then do it again after making any repairs or bypassing modules to see if it happens again. Although, does anyone know whether the Fronius (Primo) Inverters only do the insulation resistance test first thing in the morning when it wakes up, or whether it constantly checks this sort of thing? I am guessing a hard ground fault would get picked up immediately, but just having an insulation resistance lower than some threshold might not get picked up until the following morning (or maybe an inverter reset). Based on answers here, and knowing that there was previous squirrel damage, I am guessing its more likely that squirrels are to blame rather than this one cell. (I am pretty sure those jerks are in cahoots with the oil companies). On Thu, May 8, 2025 at 10:46 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Sometimes spraying soapy water onto the suspect panel is enough to > recreate the issue. A simple spray bottle will do. > > > > On May 8, 2025, at 6:28 PM, David Coale via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I am having the same issue, but it is with an SMA inverter. In my case > it happens when it is raining and clears up when it dries out. I can see > there are some bad cells, but they are right next to the edge of the panel > so a moisture problem would show up this way. Good to know about sealing > the conduits. > > In your case, you should be able to disconnect the suspected string or > jump around the suspected panel and figure this out. Other wise I would > blame it on the squirrels. But then again, I blame everything on rogue > squirrels or rats. > > David > > > On May 8, 2025, at 12:55 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Fronius install manual says the conduit entry ports need to be packed with > putty around the wires. They’re the only manufacturer I know of that > requires this. Water vapor roses into the circuit boards. I used to get > a couple different error codes until we packed the conduits. > Good luck, and let us know! > > > > On Thu, May 8, 2025 at 12:22 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> There is an installation that I am servicing with the Q.Peak G4 modules, >> where one cell has some visible damage. I am wondering whether this type >> damage can lead to a ground fault? The Fronius inverter on site is >> picking up an "Insulation Resist" error. I am wondering whether this could >> be the cause, or whether I should look elsewhere in the array. A photo is >> attached. Any thoughts would be appreciated. >> >> Thanks! >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >> >> >> | Ithaca, >> NY 14850 >> >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri May 9 13:53:55 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 9 May 2025 10:53:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Whole House RO In-Reply-To: <22C652E5-BB0F-4624-8342-37CC2ACB3E3C@gmail.com> References: <22C652E5-BB0F-4624-8342-37CC2ACB3E3C@gmail.com> Message-ID: That is what I was thinking, that the RO booster pump doesn't need a lot of pressure on the inlet side. There is a lot of wastewater, but I have not calculated the ratio. My visual analysis is that is it more like 6:1 or more. The production level is very low, perhaps 1-2 gallons per minute. I would love to not have a well pump running at all when producing RO, pumping raw water into a holding tank in advance of RO production. I don't think the owner is opposed to managing this manually, but it could also be set up on a solar direct DC pump or on a smart load output of the inverters if using an AC pump. The house does have rainwater catchment that is great in the summer, producing 100% of its needs. However, the property is more heavily used in the dry winter months. So the rainwater system doesn't align with the use case for the home (vacation/second home in the nice season in Florida). Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, May 8, 2025 at 3:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jason > > What’s the actual water output from > The RO? We had one at our house before I took it out and replaced the > house water with rainwater catchment. 3 yrs and counting in the high > desert. > I couldn’t live with the 2-3 to 1 loss ratio. > > A few options as I suspect the actual RO output is closer to 1-2 gpm. > 1. Use a 1/3hp well pump into a large pressure tank with relatively low > pressure switch. You might even get away with a small sump pump. The RO > should t need but minimal input pressure > > 2. Assuming the RO system doesn’t need rhe 1.25hp pump ( i am assuming > the RO goes into a tank and much then has a pressure pump to supply the > house. If it doesn’t I would recommend installing said design) I’d install > a smaller motor and pump head to better match the RO flow rate. > You could look at getting a high efficiency DC pump or 3 phase with vfd. > Sun pumps has such things. > > Jay > > > > > On May 8, 2025, at 12:38 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > >  > > Water pump is not my strong suit. I usually leave that up to the experts > around here. Unfortunately, the experts are clueless when it comes to > off-grid living. I have a client with a setup that is pretty unworkable. > I'm trying to give him some general guidance. > > > > The setup uses a brackish water (might as well be salt water) very > shallow well. It is about 3 ft underground for the water table. The RO > system installer has a 1 HP 1.25 SF Century centrifugal surface pump > drawing water from the well and pressurizing the inlet of a StaRite 1.25 HP > booster pump designed for about 10 GPM at 150 PSI to run water through the > RO system. > > > > Both of the pumps run simultaneously and continuously when producing > water, and the water production is ridiculously low. I understand that RO > production is going to be slow, but the amount of power these pumps are > using is pure insanity. I have advised the client that, at a minimum, this > system needs to be on a smart load circuit to run only when there is > adequate battery capacity. The startup surgery is not a concern, but it > does flicker the lights and it makes quite the racket. > > > > My thoughts are that the well pump is drastically oversized. The booster > pump only needs 10 gallons per minute, and it has a suction head of 15 ft. > I don't even know if the well pump pressurizing the booster pump inlet is > required. I'm thinking we should be slow pumping water into an interim > holding tank at least at the height of the booster pump. At a minimum, the > well pump should be on a pressure switch with pressure tank so it can > cycle. > > > > Can anyone give me some general guidance, and perhaps a VFD pump that > does not have the startup surge and is maybe more efficient? During times > of heavy use, the RO system can easily eat up half of the PV produced > during a day at this site. > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri May 9 14:10:24 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 9 May 2025 18:10:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Whole House RO In-Reply-To: References: <22C652E5-BB0F-4624-8342-37CC2ACB3E3C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I really have not been following this but: IMHO RO off grid is wasteful & not appropriate. 1. There are RO systems that use a lot less water than other RO systems. All RO systems are not equal. 2. There are many filtration systems that can do what RO does without wasting any water at all. You will go thru filters though. 3. I understand the brackish/salt? Issue I have done large house sized RO systems to a 2,500-gallon tank in CO. 4. The challenge with most water filtration companies is they are used to the grid - lots of power & unlimited waste. 5. Haul or get delivered water? Had a few folks back in the day with solid rock under there place with no water under the rock. 6. **. Assuming the RO system doesn't need rhe 1.25hp pump ( i am assuming the RO goes into a tank and much then has a pressure pump to supply the house. If it doesn't I would recommend installing said design) I'd install a smaller motor and pump head to better match the RO flow rate. You could look at getting a high efficiency DC pump or 3 phase with vfd. Sun pumps has such things. 7. I like #6 so far... 8. Maybe Ro at a few locations for drinking & a lesser filtrated water for shower etc? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Whole House RO Date: Fri, 9 May 2025 17:53:55 +0000 Size: 29160 URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri May 9 14:32:31 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 9 May 2025 18:32:31 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Off-Grid Whole House RO In-Reply-To: References: <22C652E5-BB0F-4624-8342-37CC2ACB3E3C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Suggestion : I start with a thorough water test: I have used these folks at National Testing Labs for 20+ years. Excellent service! @ (440) 449-2525 https://watercheck.com/ Multipage test results for lots of different stuff in water talk with them about what you have and what test they would suggest. If you want, contact me off list glad to send a copy of my house well test for your perusal. With the data they provide you from can narrow down what it is that you are wanting to be rid of & this opens up the options for treatment & filtration. I filter for 2 specific items: very light arsenic [1 refillable cartridge for this] & sulfur dioxide [we have hot springs down 600' below the surface & at high water times of the year slight sulfur smell turns out a carbon filter eliminates this]. 2 issues & 2 filters, done. I hope this helps & does not muddy the water, Ha! _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Whole House RO Date: Fri, 9 May 2025 18:10:24 +0000 Size: 48896 URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 9 16:02:38 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 09 May 2025 13:02:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Off-Grid Whole House RO In-Reply-To: References: <22C652E5-BB0F-4624-8342-37CC2ACB3E3C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <454956cbc68d3c2cda3696e19ab50ea7@sti.net> Definitely get a good test ! If you do go rainwater and have copper water pipes, you need to be very careful with LOW PH rainwater ! Might have to raise PH or lose copper piping with rain. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-05-09 11:32 am, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > Suggestion : > > I start with a thorough water test: I have used these folks at National > Testing Labs for 20+ years. Excellent service! > > @ (440) 449-2525 https://watercheck.com/ > > Multipage test results for lots of different stuff in water talk with > them about what you have and what test they would suggest. > > If you want, contact me off list glad to send a copy of my house well > test for your perusal. > > With the data they provide you from can narrow down what it is that you > are wanting to be rid of & this opens up the options for treatment & > filtration. > > I filter for 2 specific items: very light arsenic [1 refillable > cartridge for this] & sulfur dioxide [we have hot springs down 600' > below the surface & at high water times of the year slight sulfur smell > turns out a carbon filter eliminates this]. 2 issues & 2 filters, done. > > I hope this helps & does not muddy the water, Ha! > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com [1] > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!"_ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.solarwork.com/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri May 9 17:15:43 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 9 May 2025 16:15:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Off-Grid Whole House RO In-Reply-To: References: <22C652E5-BB0F-4624-8342-37CC2ACB3E3C@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's a tough location. Barrier island on the Gulf of Whatever you call it. The highest point on the island is about 3 feet above sea level. I think they are using the RO water for showers, laundry, etc. Drinking water is all bottled. But they have 5 ice makers, so I'm not sure where that comes from. Efficiency wasn't considered when it was built. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, May 9, 2025, 11:33 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Suggestion : > > I start with a thorough water test: I have used these folks at National > Testing Labs for 20+ years. Excellent service! > > @ (440) 449-2525 https://watercheck.com/ > > > > Multipage test results for lots of different stuff in water talk with them > about what you have and what test they would suggest. > > > > If you want, contact me off list glad to send a copy of my house well test > for your perusal. > > > > With the data they provide you from can narrow down what it is that you > are wanting to be rid of & this opens up the options for treatment & > filtration. > > > > I filter for 2 specific items: very light arsenic [1 refillable cartridge > for this] & sulfur dioxide [we have hot springs down 600’ below the surface > & at high water times of the year slight sulfur smell turns out a carbon > filter eliminates this]. 2 issues & 2 filters, done. > > > > I hope this helps & does not muddy the water, Ha! > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Dana Orzel > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 9 May 2025 18:10:24 +0000 > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Whole House RO > > I really have not been following this but: IMHO RO off grid is wasteful & > not appropriate. > > > > 1. There are RO systems that use a lot less water than other RO > systems. All RO systems are not equal. > 2. There are many filtration systems that can do what RO does without > wasting any water at all. You will go thru filters though. > 3. I understand the brackish/salt? Issue I have done large house sized > RO systems to a 2,500-gallon tank in CO. > 4. The challenge with most water filtration companies is they are used > to the grid - lots of power & unlimited waste. > 5. Haul or get delivered water? Had a few folks back in the day with > solid rock under there place with no water under the rock. > 6. **. Assuming the RO system doesn’t need rhe 1.25hp pump ( i am > assuming the RO goes into a tank and much then has a pressure pump to > supply the house. If it doesn’t I would recommend installing said design) > I’d install a smaller motor and pump head to better match the RO flow rate. > You could look at getting a high efficiency DC pump or 3 phase with > vfd. > Sun pumps has such things. > 7. I like #6 so far… > 8. Maybe Ro at a few locations for drinking & a lesser filtrated water > for shower etc? > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 9 May 2025 17:53:55 +0000 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Whole House RO > That is what I was thinking, that the RO booster pump doesn't need a lot > of pressure on the inlet side. There is a lot of wastewater, but I have not > calculated the ratio. My visual analysis is that is it more like 6:1 or > more. The production level is very low, perhaps 1-2 gallons per minute. I > would love to not have a well pump running at all when producing RO, > pumping raw water into a holding tank in advance of RO production. I don't > think the owner is opposed to managing this manually, but it could also be > set up on a solar direct DC pump or on a smart load output of the inverters > if using an AC pump. > > The house does have rainwater catchment that is great in the summer, > producing 100% of its needs. However, the property is more heavily used in > the dry winter months. So the rainwater system doesn't align with the use > case for the home (vacation/second home in the nice season in Florida). > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, May 8, 2025 at 3:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Jason >> >> What’s the actual water output from >> The RO? We had one at our house before I took it out and replaced the >> house water with rainwater catchment. 3 yrs and counting in the high >> desert. >> I couldn’t live with the 2-3 to 1 loss ratio. >> >> A few options as I suspect the actual RO output is closer to 1-2 gpm. >> 1. Use a 1/3hp well pump into a large pressure tank with relatively low >> pressure switch. You might even get away with a small sump pump. The RO >> should t need but minimal input pressure >> >> 2. Assuming the RO system doesn’t need rhe 1.25hp pump ( i am assuming >> the RO goes into a tank and much then has a pressure pump to supply the >> house. If it doesn’t I would recommend installing said design) I’d install >> a smaller motor and pump head to better match the RO flow rate. >> You could look at getting a high efficiency DC pump or 3 phase with vfd. >> Sun pumps has such things. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> > On May 8, 2025, at 12:38 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> > >> >  >> > Water pump is not my strong suit. I usually leave that up to the >> experts around here. Unfortunately, the experts are clueless when it comes >> to off-grid living. I have a client with a setup that is pretty unworkable. >> I'm trying to give him some general guidance. >> > >> > The setup uses a brackish water (might as well be salt water) very >> shallow well. It is about 3 ft underground for the water table. The RO >> system installer has a 1 HP 1.25 SF Century centrifugal surface pump >> drawing water from the well and pressurizing the inlet of a StaRite 1.25 HP >> booster pump designed for about 10 GPM at 150 PSI to run water through the >> RO system. >> > >> > Both of the pumps run simultaneously and continuously when producing >> water, and the water production is ridiculously low. I understand that RO >> production is going to be slow, but the amount of power these pumps are >> using is pure insanity. I have advised the client that, at a minimum, this >> system needs to be on a smart load circuit to run only when there is >> adequate battery capacity. The startup surgery is not a concern, but it >> does flicker the lights and it makes quite the racket. >> > >> > My thoughts are that the well pump is drastically oversized. The >> booster pump only needs 10 gallons per minute, and it has a suction head of >> 15 ft. I don't even know if the well pump pressurizing the booster pump >> inlet is required. I'm thinking we should be slow pumping water into an >> interim holding tank at least at the height of the booster pump. At a >> minimum, the well pump should be on a pressure switch with pressure tank so >> it can cycle. >> > >> > Can anyone give me some general guidance, and perhaps a VFD pump that >> does not have the startup surge and is maybe more efficient? During times >> of heavy use, the RO system can easily eat up half of the PV produced >> during a day at this site. >> > >> > >> > Jason Szumlanski >> > Florida Solar Design Group >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sat May 10 14:19:06 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Sat, 10 May 2025 11:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback woes Message-ID: <1746901146.952130902@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img-0.png Type: image/png Size: 137611 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat May 10 15:21:51 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 10 May 2025 12:21:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback woes In-Reply-To: <1746901146.952130902@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1746901146.952130902@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <76172475-2431-4836-8B09-E5166359B334@gmail.com> As a follow up. Has anyone purchased a new OB inverter or CC or mate. I mean specifically remote new outback company. Jay > On May 10, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Well, Outback's Optics RE is down yet again, also the back up site too and also the users forum... which had a massive database of current and past problem solving archives. > > What a clusterfuck this new company is. > > Wise wrenches should beware of patronizing this obvious sinking ship. > > Todd > > > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat May 10 21:19:18 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 10 May 2025 21:19:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback woes In-Reply-To: <76172475-2431-4836-8B09-E5166359B334@gmail.com> References: <1746901146.952130902@webmail.finestplanet.com> <76172475-2431-4836-8B09-E5166359B334@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jaym I bought 2 MATE3s's from Zonna last week. They had been out of stock so I assume they came from the new Outback. On Sat, May 10, 2025 at 3:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > As a follow up. > > Has anyone purchased a new OB inverter or CC or mate. > I mean specifically remote new outback company. > > Jay > > On May 10, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Well, Outback's Optics RE is down yet again, also the back up site too and > also the users forum... which had a massive database of current and past > problem solving archives. > > What a clusterfuck this new company is. > > Wise wrenches should beware of patronizing this obvious sinking ship. > > Todd > > > > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat May 10 22:15:47 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 10 May 2025 22:15:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange conflict between FM100 and VFX3648 Charging. Message-ID: The system is Flexware 500 with 2 VFX3648 Master and slave L1, with FM100. There are 2 Fortress eVault batteries and MATE3s and HUB. We had a problem with charging going between 0 and approx 30 amps DC. The current would climb up in about 10 seconds and then slowly go back to 0 in about the same amount of time and then repeat. For some reason when we unplugged the FM100 from the HUB, charging would resume at about 40 ADC continuous from the generator.. This happens when the sun is out and when dark so the solar input is having no effect on this strange behavior. Any ideas? John Blittersdorf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat May 10 22:58:45 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 10 May 2025 19:58:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback woes/Envy In-Reply-To: <76172475-2431-4836-8B09-E5166359B334@gmail.com> References: <1746901146.952130902@webmail.finestplanet.com> <76172475-2431-4836-8B09-E5166359B334@gmail.com> Message-ID: Bought a VFXR3648 and two FXR3048s recently. They actually worked! Miracle. The client for which I am suggesting an Envy 12 instead of new FM100s is really attached to Optics. Now that Optics is unreliable it is easier to suggest an alternative. I’d like to hear about the Envy on-line interface. Is it ok? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sat, May 10, 2025 at 12:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > As a follow up. > > Has anyone purchased a new OB inverter or CC or mate. > I mean specifically remote new outback company. > > Jay > > On May 10, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Well, Outback's Optics RE is down yet again, also the back up site too and > also the users forum... which had a massive database of current and past > problem solving archives. > > What a clusterfuck this new company is. > > Wise wrenches should beware of patronizing this obvious sinking ship. > > Todd > > > > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sun May 11 10:01:35 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 09:01:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback woes In-Reply-To: <1746901146.952130902@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1746901146.952130902@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <3EC9FFF9-A8D8-4BFA-AD1E-44793F8295C3@mavericksolar.com> It is a very strange situation for Outback. James Showalter purchased Outback from Entersys / Alpha and moved the operation to Commerce Texas. They have been almost a silent in the transition since very little is coming from them, except for a post or two on the Outback Forum. Simple things like paying for and updating Server Fees, certificates, domain names, etc all impact their reputation. Outbackpower.com is still owned by Enersys according to WhoIs database. It’s been a rough transition and no roadmap / feedback or direct message of intent. On the flip side James has EG4 and Signature Solar, both have come leaps and bounds into products and support that rivals any good company. James vows to manufacture inverters and batteries in Commerce in volume this year (they have stated they are already underway). Maybe they bit off more than they can chew in the time allotted by picking up Outback in addition to making EG4 and Signature as well. Let me know if y’all have heard anything different. It’s a difficult time for the industry right now. References: https://youtube.com/shorts/n1EZS8FeuyA?si=6xclr8Ygmgb5GsRqhttps://www.youtube.com/shorts/n1EZS8FeuyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IimC23ozSDI Alert!! HUGE News For The Solar Community!! EG4 Made In The USA!?!? youtube.com https://youtu.be/IimC23ozSDI Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On May 10, 2025, at 1:19 PM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Well, Outback's Optics RE is down yet again, also the back up site too and also the users forum... which had a massive database of current and past problem solving archives. > > What a clusterfuck this new company is. > > Wise wrenches should beware of patronizing this obvious sinking ship. > > Todd > > > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 246317 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sun May 11 10:32:45 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 09:32:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback woes/Envy In-Reply-To: References: <1746901146.952130902@webmail.finestplanet.com> <76172475-2431-4836-8B09-E5166359B334@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18EBD01D-381E-44DB-B887-FD4AF43C175A@mavericksolar.com> William, I have both the ENVY and Radian (and XW at my own home). The ENVY online experience is great. It may have replaced the Sol-Ark online monitoring as my favorite. (I have installed about 20 Sol-Arks and they also have tons of data and a great overall online experience). The data collected by ENVY is far greater than OpticsRE, many more parameters are saved. ENVY also has a working smart phone App that shows more data than the now offline / defunct OpticsRE app. OpticsRE does log enough data to understand that the system is functioning, but the additional AC data and way the information is presented gives ENVY far superior results. I do lean more towards the way OpticsRE allows editing parameters on the Devices section. That’s likely because I am more familiar with the terminology. But, The ENVY Inverter has a built in display / touch screen that allows you to edit all of the values and make the system work without any internet / wireless / bluetooth connection. That is a great fall back. I am used to the MATE3s, but new customers have a crazy time with learning how it works and where values are able to be changed. The ENVY App bridges that gap! Now the dream part is that since Outback is now owned by the same people that also sell the EG4 18kPV (which is also made by Luxpower just like the ENVY), the best of both worlds could come about == more data collected and an available and a solid smart phone app for customers that want such a thing. The screenshot of the app is straight forward and the tabs at the bottom show charts, alarms and settings. The screenshot for desktop is very detailed and you can scroll down on the first page and get 3-4 screenfuls of data for just about anything you want to know. Let me know if you have a specific question, I can give you a comparison.   Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On May 10, 2025, at 9:58 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Bought a VFXR3648 and two FXR3048s recently. They actually worked! Miracle. > > The client for which I am suggesting an Envy 12 instead of new FM100s is really attached to Optics. Now that Optics is unreliable it is easier to suggest an alternative. > > I’d like to hear about the Envy on-line interface. Is it ok? > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sat, May 10, 2025 at 12:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> As a follow up. >> >> Has anyone purchased a new OB inverter or CC or mate. >> I mean specifically remote new outback company. >> >> Jay >> >>> On May 10, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Well, Outback's Optics RE is down yet again, also the back up site too and also the users forum... which had a massive database of current and past problem solving archives. >>> >>> What a clusterfuck this new company is. >>> >>> Wise wrenches should beware of patronizing this obvious sinking ship. >>> >>> Todd >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot 2025-05-11 at 9.11.09 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 665675 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_3420.PNG Type: image/png Size: 312713 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 11 10:39:45 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 07:39:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback woes/Envy In-Reply-To: <18EBD01D-381E-44DB-B887-FD4AF43C175A@mavericksolar.com> References: <18EBD01D-381E-44DB-B887-FD4AF43C175A@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 11 10:47:26 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 07:47:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange conflict between FM100 and VFX3648 Charging. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <632B2552-9895-4F91-A7B5-BC70A8022829@gmail.com> Hi John Do you mean 30 amps dc or AC from the inverter? Regardless I can only think the issue is programming. Is this a new issue after new equipment or ? Jay > On May 10, 2025, at 7:17 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > The system is Flexware 500 with 2 VFX3648 Master and slave L1, with FM100. There are 2 Fortress eVault batteries and MATE3s and HUB. We had a problem with charging going between 0 and approx 30 amps DC. The current would climb up in about 10 seconds and then slowly go back to 0 in about the same amount of time and then repeat. For some reason when we unplugged the FM100 from the HUB, charging would resume at about 40 ADC continuous from the generator.. This happens when the sun is out and when dark so the solar input is having no effect on this strange behavior. Any ideas? > > John Blittersdorf > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sun May 11 11:04:26 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 08:04:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback woes/Envy In-Reply-To: References: <18EBD01D-381E-44DB-B887-FD4AF43C175A@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: How does the Lux, Envy, and Sol-Ark compare to Midnite's AIO? I was all on board the Midnite train but I'm coming to the conclusion that they released it prematurely. Glitchy and Quirky. On Sun, May 11, 2025 at 7:40 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > One of the things I like about the LUX is that you can do programming with > the built in display. > The online monitoring is good as Maverick says. > > I also think it’s way more accurate as well. > > The LUX 12kw is a solid unit. > > Jay > > > On May 11, 2025, at 7:35 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > William, > > I have both the ENVY and Radian (and XW at my own home). > > The ENVY online experience is great. It may have replaced the Sol-Ark > online monitoring as my favorite. (I have installed about 20 Sol-Arks and > they also have tons of data and a great overall online experience). > > The data collected by ENVY is far greater than OpticsRE, many more > parameters are saved. ENVY also has a working smart phone App that shows > more data than the now offline / defunct OpticsRE app. > > OpticsRE does log enough data to understand that the system is > functioning, but the additional AC data and way the information is > presented gives ENVY far superior results. I do lean more towards the way > OpticsRE allows editing parameters on the Devices section. That’s likely > because I am more familiar with the terminology. But, The ENVY Inverter has > a built in display / touch screen that allows you to edit all of the values > and make the system work without any internet / wireless / bluetooth > connection. That is a great fall back. I am used to the MATE3s, but new > customers have a crazy time with learning how it works and where values are > able to be changed. The ENVY App bridges that gap! > > Now the dream part is that since Outback is now owned by the same people > that also sell the EG4 18kPV (which is also made by Luxpower just like the > ENVY), the best of both worlds could come about == more data collected and > an available and a solid smart phone app for customers that want such a > thing. > > The screenshot of the app is straight forward and the tabs at the bottom > show charts, alarms and settings. > The screenshot for desktop is very detailed and you can scroll down on the > first page and get 3-4 screenfuls of data for just about anything you want > to know. > > Let me know if you have a specific question, I can give you a comparison. > > > > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* > * • Solar Commander Remote Power* > > * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection *maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > On May 10, 2025, at 9:58 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Bought a VFXR3648 and two FXR3048s recently. They actually worked! > Miracle. > > The client for which I am suggesting an Envy 12 instead of new FM100s is > really attached to Optics. Now that Optics is unreliable it is easier to > suggest an alternative. > > I’d like to hear about the Envy on-line interface. Is it ok? > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sat, May 10, 2025 at 12:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> As a follow up. >> >> Has anyone purchased a new OB inverter or CC or mate. >> I mean specifically remote new outback company. >> >> Jay >> >> On May 10, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Well, Outback's Optics RE is down yet again, also the back up site too >> and also the users forum... which had a massive database of current and >> past problem solving archives. >> >> What a clusterfuck this new company is. >> >> Wise wrenches should beware of patronizing this obvious sinking ship. >> >> Todd >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 11 11:15:44 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 08:15:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback woes In-Reply-To: <3EC9FFF9-A8D8-4BFA-AD1E-44793F8295C3@mavericksolar.com> References: <3EC9FFF9-A8D8-4BFA-AD1E-44793F8295C3@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 11 11:16:58 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 08:16:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback woes/Envy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79FF888F-4A00-4703-89B7-5DE99D35BC68@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sun May 11 11:47:33 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 08:47:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback woes/Envy In-Reply-To: <79FF888F-4A00-4703-89B7-5DE99D35BC68@gmail.com> References: <79FF888F-4A00-4703-89B7-5DE99D35BC68@gmail.com> Message-ID: I wonder where all this is going? A plethora of Chinese ( I understand virtually everything electronic is manufactured there) AIOs and batteries, each with their own communication protocols, programing parameters, and individual peculiarities. I say this with all modesty and humility, that until a few years ago, it was a rare troubleshooting situation that I needed guidance from tech support for most anything. Now the extent of my prowess has been reduced to: "power cycle" it and if that doesn't work call tech support, and then be prepared for a frustrating, protracted, and costly in terms of my time, experience. I also wonder if it's sort of a "race to the bottom" (thanks for that one Bob-O) as far a quality goes. Discover discontinued it's AES battery which I think was the pinnacle, and replaced it with the Helios (which I have high hopes for). I'm hoping it's not a clone of all the others that are similar and I understand that the AES simply couldn't compete. Just my mind dump sans edit On Sun, May 11, 2025 at 8:17 AM Jay wrote: > Fortress and eg4 both use the same basic LUX made inverters. > Sol ark is made by DEYE. > > > > On May 11, 2025, at 8:04 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > How does the Lux, Envy, and Sol-Ark compare to Midnite's AIO? I was all on > board the Midnite train but I'm coming to the conclusion that they released > it prematurely. Glitchy and Quirky. > > On Sun, May 11, 2025 at 7:40 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> One of the things I like about the LUX is that you can do programming >> with the built in display. >> The online monitoring is good as Maverick says. >> >> I also think it’s way more accurate as well. >> >> The LUX 12kw is a solid unit. >> >> Jay >> >> >> On May 11, 2025, at 7:35 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> William, >> >> I have both the ENVY and Radian (and XW at my own home). >> >> The ENVY online experience is great. It may have replaced the Sol-Ark >> online monitoring as my favorite. (I have installed about 20 Sol-Arks and >> they also have tons of data and a great overall online experience). >> >> The data collected by ENVY is far greater than OpticsRE, many more >> parameters are saved. ENVY also has a working smart phone App that shows >> more data than the now offline / defunct OpticsRE app. >> >> OpticsRE does log enough data to understand that the system is >> functioning, but the additional AC data and way the information is >> presented gives ENVY far superior results. I do lean more towards the way >> OpticsRE allows editing parameters on the Devices section. That’s likely >> because I am more familiar with the terminology. But, The ENVY Inverter has >> a built in display / touch screen that allows you to edit all of the values >> and make the system work without any internet / wireless / bluetooth >> connection. That is a great fall back. I am used to the MATE3s, but new >> customers have a crazy time with learning how it works and where values are >> able to be changed. The ENVY App bridges that gap! >> >> Now the dream part is that since Outback is now owned by the same people >> that also sell the EG4 18kPV (which is also made by Luxpower just like the >> ENVY), the best of both worlds could come about == more data collected and >> an available and a solid smart phone app for customers that want such a >> thing. >> >> The screenshot of the app is straight forward and the tabs at the bottom >> show charts, alarms and settings. >> The screenshot for desktop is very detailed and you can scroll down on >> the first page and get 3-4 screenfuls of data for just about anything you >> want to know. >> >> Let me know if you have a specific question, I can give you a comparison. >> >> >> >> >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* >> * • Solar Commander Remote Power* >> >> * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection *maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> On May 10, 2025, at 9:58 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Bought a VFXR3648 and two FXR3048s recently. They actually worked! >> Miracle. >> >> The client for which I am suggesting an Envy 12 instead of new FM100s is >> really attached to Optics. Now that Optics is unreliable it is easier to >> suggest an alternative. >> >> I’d like to hear about the Envy on-line interface. Is it ok? >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Sat, May 10, 2025 at 12:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> As a follow up. >>> >>> Has anyone purchased a new OB inverter or CC or mate. >>> I mean specifically remote new outback company. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> On May 10, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Well, Outback's Optics RE is down yet again, also the back up site too >>> and also the users forum... which had a massive database of current and >>> past problem solving archives. >>> >>> What a clusterfuck this new company is. >>> >>> Wise wrenches should beware of patronizing this obvious sinking ship. >>> >>> Todd >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sun May 11 13:07:34 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 12:07:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback woes/Envy Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun May 11 14:37:37 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 12:37:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback woes/Envy In-Reply-To: References: <79FF888F-4A00-4703-89B7-5DE99D35BC68@gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree Michael, my call backs and free trips are way up with Li batteries and AIO.  I just don't know what the system is doing or what to expect from the settings.  Dark Start has now become a normal thing.  My blood pressure is off the charts trying to talk to tech support with one bar of cell service.  I have a DC power supply and inverter to restart the batts.  I now own a PC laptop that's sole purpose is firmware updates. Guess what? Lead acid almost never needed a trip out to restart. The sun comes out, and it starts recharging. Lead acid is SELF HEALING. I just can't get LVD settings that keep Li bats out of dark start territory.  All is fine until its not.  Here's some experiences: 1) A Fortress firmware glitch that shut the whole system down when it reached 100% SOC. Result: rotten food in both freezers, customer confidence: they sold the property. Solution: upgrade Fortress Firmware. 2) Simpliphi and XW system works fine for 5 years, then a low battery issue during bad weather causes all 4 Simpliphi batteries to fry. Result: customer is on generator full time for 2 months. Solution: finally get replacement batteries and replace XW inverter with Magnum. 3) Homegrid batteries go into dark mode after solar shuts off for a couple of days.  No battery voltage to turn on charge controller again.  Result: 3 trips out to restart batteries, and hang out for hours to make sure the inverter will reconnect, and stay connected. Solution: still not sure, I raised the LVD and reconnect voltages, but the battery's no load draw from the BMS seems to be very significant. 4) Midnite AIO won't connect to phone app, which is the only way to program it.  I turn on the inverter, and it just bricks. Result: It can't function out of the box without being setup with the phone app that doesn't always work. Solution: after 2-1/2 hours on a bad connection with Tech support, we finally get the inverter to reset and start working properly. I had to delete and reload the phone app 5 times before it would finally connect to the inverter.   What's going to happen when you come back in 5 years with a different phone? I can share more with other companies I've tried including Rubix, and Blue Planet.  The only Li battery I've not had trouble with was LiFe Blue (thanks Larry), but they're only for 12v systems. I am still installing lead acid for many of my customers, because we know what to expect. A lesser evil is better than the unknown that can be much worse.  Retirement can't come too soon. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/11/2025 9:47 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I wonder where all this is going? A plethora of Chinese ( I understand > virtually everything electronic is manufactured there) AIOs and > batteries, each with their own communication protocols, programing > parameters, and individual peculiarities. I say this with all modesty > and humility, that until a few years ago, it was a rare > troubleshooting situation that I needed guidance from tech support for > most anything. Now the extent of my prowess has been reduced to: > "power cycle" it and if that doesn't work call tech support, and then > be prepared for a frustrating, protracted, and costly in terms of my > time, experience. > > I also wonder if it's sort of a "race to the bottom" (thanks for that > one Bob-O) as far a quality goes. Discover discontinued it's AES > battery which I think was the pinnacle, and replaced it with the > Helios (which I have high hopes for). I'm hoping it's not a clone of > all the others that are similar and I understand that the AES simply > couldn't compete. > > Just my mind dump sans edit > > On Sun, May 11, 2025 at 8:17 AM Jay wrote: > > Fortress and eg4 both use the same basic LUX made inverters. > Sol ark is made by DEYE. > > > >> On May 11, 2025, at 8:04 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> How does the Lux, Envy, and Sol-Ark compare to Midnite's AIO? I >> was all on board the Midnite train but I'm coming to the >> conclusion that they released it prematurely. Glitchy and Quirky. >> >> On Sun, May 11, 2025 at 7:40 AM Jay via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> One of the things I like about the LUX is that you can do >> programming with the built in display. >> The online monitoring is good as Maverick says. >> >> I also think it’s way more accurate as well. >> >> The LUX 12kw is a solid unit. >> >> Jay >> >> >>> On May 11, 2025, at 7:35 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> William, >>> >>> I have both the ENVY and Radian (and XW at my own home). >>> >>> The ENVY online experience is great. It may have replaced >>> the Sol-Ark online monitoring as my favorite. (I have >>> installed about 20 Sol-Arks and they also have tons of data >>> and a great overall online experience). >>> >>> The data collected by ENVY is far greater than OpticsRE, >>> many more parameters are saved. ENVY also has a working >>> smart phone App that shows more data than the now offline / >>> defunct OpticsRE app. >>> >>> OpticsRE does log enough data to understand that the system >>> is functioning, but the additional AC data and way the >>> information is presented gives ENVY far superior results. I >>> do lean more towards the way OpticsRE allows editing >>> parameters on the Devices section. That’s likely because I >>> am more familiar with the terminology. But, The ENVY >>> Inverter has a built in display / touch screen that allows >>> you to edit all of the values and make the system work >>> without any internet / wireless / bluetooth connection. That >>> is a great fall back. I am used to the MATE3s, but new >>> customers have a crazy time with learning how it works and >>> where values are able to be changed. The ENVY App bridges >>> that gap! >>> >>> Now the dream part is that since Outback is now owned by the >>> same people that also sell the EG4 18kPV (which is also made >>> by Luxpower just like the ENVY), the best of both worlds >>> could come about == more data collected and an available and >>> a solid smart phone app for customers that want such a thing. >>> >>> The screenshot of the app is straight forward and the tabs >>> at the bottom show charts, alarms and settings. >>> The screenshot for desktop is very detailed and you can >>> scroll down on the first page and get 3-4 screenfuls of data >>> for just about anything you want to know. >>> >>> Let me know if you have a specific question, I can give you >>> a comparison. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Maverick Brown >>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >>> *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* >>> * • Solar Commander Remote Power* >>> * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >>> *maverick at mavericksolar.com >>> 512-460-9825 >>> >>>> On May 10, 2025, at 9:58 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Bought a VFXR3648 and two FXR3048s recently. They actually >>>> worked!  Miracle. >>>> >>>> The client for which I am suggesting an Envy 12 instead of >>>> new FM100s is really attached to Optics. Now that Optics is >>>> unreliable it is easier to suggest an alternative. >>>> >>>> I’d like to hear about the Envy on-line interface. Is it ok? >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> Miller Solar.com >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, May 10, 2025 at 12:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> As a follow up. >>>> >>>> Has anyone purchased a new OB inverter or CC or mate. >>>> I mean specifically remote new outback company. >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>>> On May 10, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Todd Cory via >>>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Well, Outback's Optics RE is down yet again, also the >>>>> back up site too and also the users forum... which had >>>>> a massive database of current and past problem solving >>>>> archives. >>>>> >>>>> What a clusterfuck this new company is. >>>>> >>>>> Wise wrenches should beware of patronizing this >>>>> obvious sinking ship. >>>>> >>>>> Todd >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>>>> doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>>> doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>> work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> Morningstar Electric Inc >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> CSLB 1116835 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Sun May 11 16:28:49 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 16:28:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback woes In-Reply-To: References: <3EC9FFF9-A8D8-4BFA-AD1E-44793F8295C3@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: EG4 and most Asian Inverters do not have Conformal coating. That goes directly against any 10 year warrant and long life. There is a reason that old Trace inverters, OutBack inverters, and Schnider inverters, are still operating many years after the warranty has expired. On Sun, May 11, 2025 at 11:16 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have been impressed with EG4 and the speed of improvements and new > products from EG4. And I e had zero failures of batteries or inverters. > > To me having monitoring and programming built in is crucial for off grid. > I guess I e had way too many people who are non technical or don’t want or > don’t have internet for their devices. > > My 2 cents > > > > > > > On May 11, 2025, at 7:03 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > It is a very strange situation for Outback. > > James Showalter purchased Outback from Entersys / Alpha and moved the > operation to Commerce Texas. They have been almost a silent in the > transition since very little is coming from them, except for a post or two > on the Outback Forum. Simple things like paying for and updating Server > Fees, certificates, domain names, etc all impact their reputation. > Outbackpower.com is still owned by Enersys according to WhoIs database. > It’s been a rough transition and no roadmap / feedback or direct message of > intent. > > On the flip side James has EG4 and Signature Solar, both have come leaps > and bounds into products and support that rivals any good company. James > vows to manufacture inverters and batteries in Commerce in volume this year > (they have stated they are already underway). > > Maybe they bit off more than they can chew in the time allotted by picking > up Outback in addition to making EG4 and Signature as well. > > Let me know if y’all have heard anything different. It’s a difficult time > for the industry right now. > > References: > https://www.youtube.com/shorts/n1EZS8FeuyA > > > Alert!! HUGE News For The Solar Community!! EG4 Made In The USA!?!? > > youtube.com > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* > * • Solar Commander Remote Power* > > * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection *maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > On May 10, 2025, at 1:19 PM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Well, Outback's Optics RE is down yet again, also the back up site too and > also the users forum... which had a massive database of current and past > problem solving archives. > > What a clusterfuck this new company is. > > Wise wrenches should beware of patronizing this obvious sinking ship. > > Todd > > > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun May 11 16:37:58 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 14:37:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback woes In-Reply-To: References: <3EC9FFF9-A8D8-4BFA-AD1E-44793F8295C3@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <525b6a9e-59c6-481d-9d1b-145a2a6b8d5e@solarray.com> I just reviewed a system from 1992.  The black Trace U2512 was still buzzing away, the APT load center was still handling charge control, and a mismatched collection of 50 w modules were all producing. Result: they needed new batteries.   That's why I'm still in business now: the old equipment worked for decades, with almost no call backs.  I can't stake a business on many of today's offerings.  The Off grid biz is already tough enough. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/11/2025 2:28 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote: > EG4 and most Asian Inverters do not have Conformal coating.  That goes > directly against any 10 year warrant and long life. > > There is a reason that old Trace inverters, OutBack inverters, and > Schnider inverters, are still operating many years after the warranty > has expired. > > On Sun, May 11, 2025 at 11:16 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I have been impressed with EG4 and the speed of improvements and > new products from EG4. And I e had zero failures of batteries or > inverters. > > To me having monitoring and programming built in is crucial for > off grid. I guess I e had way too many people who are non > technical or don’t want or don’t have internet for their devices. > > My 2 cents > > > > > > >> On May 11, 2025, at 7:03 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> It is a very strange situation for Outback. >> >> James Showalter purchased Outback from Entersys / Alpha and moved >> the operation to Commerce Texas. They have been almost a silent >> in the transition since very little is coming from them, except >> for a post or two on the Outback Forum. Simple things like paying >> for and updating Server Fees, certificates, domain names, etc all >> impact their reputation. Outbackpower.com is still owned by >> Enersys according to WhoIs database. It’s been a rough transition >> and no roadmap / feedback or direct message of intent. >> >> On the flip side James has EG4 and Signature Solar, both have >> come leaps and bounds into products and support that rivals any >> good company. James vows to manufacture inverters and batteries >> in Commerce in volume this year (they have stated they are >> already underway). >> >> Maybe they bit off more than they can chew in the time allotted >> by picking up Outback in addition to making EG4 and Signature as >> well. >> >> Let me know if y’all have heard anything different. It’s a >> difficult time for the industry right now. >> >> References: >> https://www.youtube.com/shorts/n1EZS8FeuyA >> >> >> Alert!! HUGE News For The Solar Community!! EG4 Made In The >> USA!?!? >> youtube.com >> >> >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* >> * • Solar Commander Remote Power* >> * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> *maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >>> On May 10, 2025, at 1:19 PM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Well, Outback's Optics RE is down yet again, also the back up >>> site too and also the users forum... which had a massive >>> database of current and past problem solving archives. >>> >>> What a clusterfuck this new company is. >>> >>> Wise wrenches should beware of patronizing this obvious sinking >>> ship. >>> >>> Todd >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sun May 11 23:19:41 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 23:19:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange conflict between FM100 and VFX3648 Charging. In-Reply-To: <632B2552-9895-4F91-A7B5-BC70A8022829@gmail.com> References: <632B2552-9895-4F91-A7B5-BC70A8022829@gmail.com> Message-ID: It was 30 ADC. And it happened after adding the second inverter to increase charge rate. I just checked last info on Optics and found that the 2nd inverter is newer firmware (61 and 68) . I had made sure all other settings were identical on both inverters but didn't look at firmware. Now I realize the 2nd inverter may be fighting with the first one if they have different firmware. Guess I better start there and update the older inverter if possible. Actual charge rate was also half of what it should be based on AC charge current settings. John On Sun, May 11, 2025 at 10:48 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi John > > Do you mean 30 amps dc or AC from the inverter? > > Regardless I can only think the issue is programming. > > Is this a new issue after new equipment or ? > > Jay > > > > On May 10, 2025, at 7:17 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > >  > > The system is Flexware 500 with 2 VFX3648 Master and slave L1, with > FM100. There are 2 Fortress eVault batteries and MATE3s and HUB. We had a > problem with charging going between 0 and approx 30 amps DC. The current > would climb up in about 10 seconds and then slowly go back to 0 in about > the same amount of time and then repeat. For some reason when we unplugged > the FM100 from the HUB, charging would resume at about 40 ADC continuous > from the generator.. This happens when the sun is out and when dark so the > solar input is having no effect on this strange behavior. Any ideas? > > > > John Blittersdorf > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 12 09:36:33 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 06:36:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange conflict between FM100 and VFX3648 Charging. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Mon May 12 09:56:14 2025 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 09:56:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String fuse blown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5E30B5B8-C3F0-4EEA-8DAA-99D10497DB84@gmail.com> UPDATE: So far so good and since replacing the fuse holder, fuse #3 has not blown again. ANOTHER ISSUE: Inverter 2 runs hotter than inverter 1. Reminder this is grid-tied system with 2-GVFX3648’s in series for 120/240V. The fan on inverter #2 had malfunctioned, but I was able to replace it and get that going again. Even with the replaced fan, inverter #2 is still running noticeably hotter. My understanding is that both inverters in this system are essentially “Masters”, since this is grid-tied. Shouldn’t the load/generation be split between the two and hence they run equally as hot? I did check the stacking and they were both set to “Master” which is I think what they recommended for grid-tie. I tried switching the ports on the Hub that they are plugged into to see if that would change anything, but no change. I did also noticed while I was there last week that while both inverters had the solid yellow “AC IN” light on, inverter #2’s green “Inverter” light was always on, while inverter #1’s green “Inverter” seemed to come and go… Any ideas? Thanks as always, Amos Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook > On Apr 15, 2025, at 8:40 AM, Amos Post wrote: > > Hi all, > > I decided to start with the simple stuff. While I don’t have a string curve tester (I should have one), yesterday I tested strings 1,2,3 individually under load. String 3 is the one that’s been blowing the fuse. I did not test strings 4-6 which are on a separate charge controller and combiner. Here are the results: > > String 1- 7.1A at 76V > String 2- 7.77Aat 79V > String 3-7.13A at 78.3V > > I did notice that the second charge controller with strings 4-6 was running about 100watts more (1800w vs 1700w). The conditions were clear blue skies. I replaced the fuse holder and fuse. If it blows again I’ll try switching strings to see if it follows… > > Thanks for your feedback and I’ll keep ya’ll posted. > > Amos > > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > >> On Apr 11, 2025, at 4:07 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> Wrenches, Amos, blowing of a 15 amp fuse is not a ghost in the machine, it is an actual issue no way around it, shorted modules, shorted diodes, in most cases it's a home run, way back when USE-2 white wure was failing and would crack and break off mostly this would result in a GFI trip. The fuse is blowing because of over current and a single string of your vintage will max out at far less than 10 amps but the other two strings will back feed this fuse with close to 20 then pop. >> Sharp had module failures resulting in cell shorts, look very close there. I have inspected arrays with extreme exposure differences, this will effect performance but should not pop a fuse. Do you have a module string curve tester, this very well may show an issue of the string but eyes on the array is required to located the cause. >> I have seen nails through wires, conduit, racking in contact with the back of the module but this will trip the GFI breaker not the string fuse. >> Fun times. >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025, 12:49 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> One time I had similar, but different problem: 1 Amp ground fault fuse consistently blowing, sometimes after 1 day sometimes after weeks/months. I tried everything - replaced home runs, checked VOC, VMP, swapped DC input into a different inverter, etc. it kept coming back to this one string. I checked every module VOC, ISC, every connection, no pinched wires, no discernible problem, but fuse blowing. >> Luckily it was a medium size commercial job (on a fire station) so I was able to scatter all the modules of this suspect string all over the roof, and carefully track where I had put them. That’s when the problem went away and never came back..😂 >> Best I could figure was a slight manufacturing error that had a compounding/cumulative effect. So once I got those consecutive serial numbers away from each other no more problem. Either that or the fire chief was fucking with me and he was burning out the fuses, which I doubt >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:05 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Hello Amos, >> >> Have you checked for voltage imbalance for each string? If you have a bad diode, that string may run low on voltage and be trying to send current toward the weak string (this is the reason you have these breakers). I'd run each string independently and see what Vmp is. If you are missing some voltage that may be a clue. You can also independently clamp each string during operation. >> >> I like IR cameras for this type of thing. It may just be a bad connection, heat build up, fuse holder issue. >> >> Let us know what you find out >> >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:07 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> I have a bit of a puzzler that I’m trying to get sorted out. I’ve been servicing a Grid-Tied Battery Backup system that’s about 17-18 years old. The system comprises of 2-GVFX3648s in series, with 2-MX60(at least I think they are 60s) CC’s. Each CC has 3 strings of 3 tied to it, and each string has a 15A in-line 600V fuse. The modules are I believe are like 230/240Watt 60 cell modules (sorry I don’t have pictures/specifics). We replaced the flooded batteries with AGMs about a year and a half ago. >> >> The situation is one of the 15A string fuses keeps blowing. It’s now happened 3 times and its the same fuse every time. First we just replaced the fuse and under the surge/lightning assumption. Fuse blew again. Then I thought I found the culprit. The #6 PV output from the combiner to the PV input breaker for the CC was a bit darkened and very warm to the touch when I replaced the fuse the first time. So I though maybe it was a loose connection on that lug and that caused everything to heat up and eventually blow the fuse. I cut and stripped the wire back and cleaned the lug and re-seated the wire in the lug. Fuse blew again within a few months time. I then checked the Junction box on the roof where the USE-2 wire connects to THHN, and did a visual inspection of all the wiring on the roof. All of the Jbox connections and everything on the roof “looked” ok. I have also check all of the connections inside the Outback DC load center, and they look ok. Fuse replaced 3rd time and then it blew again. >> >> Before I take all of the panels off the rack, check panels, re-check string wiring on the roof, is there anything else I should be checking? Seems like that warm wire in the Combiner box is telling me something but I can’t figure out what...I believe this is a new problem in the last 2-3 years but we are not 100% sure when the problem first came up… >> >> As always, thanks for your help/ suggestions! >> Amos >> >> >> >> >> Amos Post >> Integrity Energy >> W 802.763.7023 >> C 802.291.2188 >> ienergyVT.com >> Facebook >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Mon May 12 11:02:21 2025 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 09:02:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4024 repair Message-ID: <006e01dbc34e$de705210$9b50f630$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: I know I'm likely grasping at straws, but does anyone know of an inverter repair shop in the Salt Lake City area? Or frankly, any Magnum repair shop west of the Mississippi? Please feel free t contact me off list. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon May 12 11:52:20 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 11:52:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid In-Reply-To: References: <79FF888F-4A00-4703-89B7-5DE99D35BC68@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2e5dc4712982c3944c1233057de05a2e@redwoodalliance.org> Was Outback woes. Hi Ray, I agree completely. Off grid reached its peak reliability and then declined. I thought it peaked with the VFX and Radian inverters, both of which could have stood some improvements. With the VFXR and the Radian A, The inverters seemed to be made more cheaply and more prone to problems. The rest is history. The reliance on cell phones and internet seems to me to be completely against the spirit of self reliant off grid systems. In the old days, I would set up a system and after a bit (or lot) of messing around would work for years. What is the best off grid inverter to use these days? Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-05-11 14:37, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > I agree Michael, my call backs and free trips are way up with Li > batteries and AIO. I just don't know what the system is doing or what > to expect from the settings. Dark Start has now become a normal thing. > My blood pressure is off the charts trying to talk to tech support > with one bar of cell service. I have a DC power supply and inverter to > restart the batts. I now own a PC laptop that's sole purpose is > firmware updates. > > Guess what? Lead acid almost never needed a trip out to restart. The > sun comes out, and it starts recharging. Lead acid is SELF HEALING. I > just can't get LVD settings that keep Li bats out of dark start > territory. All is fine until its not. Here's some experiences: > > 1) A Fortress firmware glitch that shut the whole system down when it > reached 100% SOC. > Result: rotten food in both freezers, customer confidence: they sold > the property. > Solution: upgrade Fortress Firmware. > > 2) Simpliphi and XW system works fine for 5 years, then a low battery > issue during bad weather causes all 4 Simpliphi batteries to fry. > Result: customer is on generator full time for 2 months. > Solution: finally get replacement batteries and replace XW inverter > with Magnum. > > 3) Homegrid batteries go into dark mode after solar shuts off for a > couple of days. No battery voltage to turn on charge controller again. > Result: 3 trips out to restart batteries, and hang out for hours to > make sure the inverter will reconnect, and stay connected. > Solution: still not sure, I raised the LVD and reconnect voltages, but > the battery's no load draw from the BMS seems to be very significant. > > 4) Midnite AIO won't connect to phone app, which is the only way to > program it. I turn on the inverter, and it just bricks. > Result: It can't function out of the box without being setup with the > phone app that doesn't always work. > Solution: after 2-1/2 hours on a bad connection with Tech support, we > finally get the inverter to reset and start working properly. I had to > delete and reload the phone app 5 times before it would finally connect > to the inverter. What's going to happen when you come back in 5 years > with a different phone? > > I can share more with other companies I've tried including Rubix, and > Blue Planet. The only Li battery I've not had trouble with was LiFe > Blue (thanks Larry), but they're only for 12v systems. I am still > installing lead acid for many of my customers, because we know what to > expect. A lesser evil is better than the unknown that can be much > worse. Retirement can't come too soon. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 5/11/2025 9:47 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I wonder where all this is going? A plethora of Chinese ( I understand > virtually everything electronic is manufactured there) AIOs and > batteries, each with their own communication protocols, programing > parameters, and individual peculiarities. I say this with all modesty > and humility, that until a few years ago, it was a rare troubleshooting > situation that I needed guidance from tech support for most anything. > Now the extent of my prowess has been reduced to: "power cycle" it and > if that doesn't work call tech support, and then be prepared for a > frustrating, protracted, and costly in terms of my time, experience. > > I also wonder if it's sort of a "race to the bottom" (thanks for that > one Bob-O) as far a quality goes. Discover discontinued it's AES > battery which I think was the pinnacle, and replaced it with the Helios > (which I have high hopes for). I'm hoping it's not a clone of all the > others that are similar and I understand that the AES simply couldn't > compete. > > Just my mind dump sans edit > > On Sun, May 11, 2025 at 8:17 AM Jay wrote: > > Fortress and eg4 both use the same basic LUX made inverters. > Sol ark is made by DEYE. > > On May 11, 2025, at 8:04 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > How does the Lux, Envy, and Sol-Ark compare to Midnite's AIO? I was all > on board the Midnite train but I'm coming to the conclusion that they > released it prematurely. Glitchy and Quirky. > > On Sun, May 11, 2025 at 7:40 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > One of the things I like about the LUX is that you can do programming > with the built in display. > The online monitoring is good as Maverick says. > > I also think it's way more accurate as well. > > The LUX 12kw is a solid unit. > > Jay > > On May 11, 2025, at 7:35 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > William, > > I have both the ENVY and Radian (and XW at my own home). > > The ENVY online experience is great. It may have replaced the Sol-Ark > online monitoring as my favorite. (I have installed about 20 Sol-Arks > and they also have tons of data and a great overall online experience). > > The data collected by ENVY is far greater than OpticsRE, many more > parameters are saved. ENVY also has a working smart phone App that > shows more data than the now offline / defunct OpticsRE app. > > OpticsRE does log enough data to understand that the system is > functioning, but the additional AC data and way the information is > presented gives ENVY far superior results. I do lean more towards the > way OpticsRE allows editing parameters on the Devices section. That's > likely because I am more familiar with the terminology. But, The ENVY > Inverter has a built in display / touch screen that allows you to edit > all of the values and make the system work without any internet / > wireless / bluetooth connection. That is a great fall back. I am used > to the MATE3s, but new customers have a crazy time with learning how it > works and where values are able to be changed. The ENVY App bridges > that gap! > > Now the dream part is that since Outback is now owned by the same > people that also sell the EG4 18kPV (which is also made by Luxpower > just like the ENVY), the best of both worlds could come about == more > data collected and an available and a solid smart phone app for > customers that want such a thing. > > The screenshot of the app is straight forward and the tabs at the > bottom show charts, alarms and settings. > The screenshot for desktop is very detailed and you can scroll down on > the first page and get 3-4 screenfuls of data for just about anything > you want to know. > > Let me know if you have a specific question, I can give you a > comparison. > > > > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > * Solar Commander Remote Power > * SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > On May 10, 2025, at 9:58 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Bought a VFXR3648 and two FXR3048s recently. They actually worked! > Miracle. > > The client for which I am suggesting an Envy 12 instead of new FM100s > is really attached to Optics. Now that Optics is unreliable it is > easier to suggest an alternative. > > I'd like to hear about the Envy on-line interface. Is it ok? > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com [1] > > On Sat, May 10, 2025 at 12:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > As a follow up. > > Has anyone purchased a new OB inverter or CC or mate. > I mean specifically remote new outback company. > > Jay > > On May 10, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Well, Outback's Optics RE is down yet again, also the back up site too > and also the users forum... which had a massive database of current and > past problem solving archives. > > What a clusterfuck this new company is. > > Wise wrenches should beware of patronizing this obvious sinking ship. > > Todd > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [2] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [2] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com/ [2] http://re-wrenches.org/ [3] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon May 12 12:29:41 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 09:29:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality Message-ID: Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work in my limited experience. Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the battery manually is no easy task. Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about how this works? Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon May 12 12:41:11 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 10:41:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String fuse blown In-Reply-To: <5E30B5B8-C3F0-4EEA-8DAA-99D10497DB84@gmail.com> References: <5E30B5B8-C3F0-4EEA-8DAA-99D10497DB84@gmail.com> Message-ID: Is inverter 2 on top?  The top inverter in an Outback dual stack always runs hotter, because the heat from the bottom inverter is adding to its own heat.  I used to see that consistently cause board failures on the top inverter more often, if the whole system was running close to capacity. Ray Walters On 5/12/2025 7:56 AM, Amos Post via RE-wrenches wrote: > UPDATE: > > So far so good and since replacing the fuse holder, fuse #3 has not > blown again. > > ANOTHER ISSUE: > > *Inverter 2 runs hotter than inverter 1.*   Reminder this is grid-tied > system with 2-GVFX3648’s in series for 120/240V.   The fan on inverter > #2 had malfunctioned, but I was able to replace it and get that going > again.  Even with the replaced fan, inverter #2 is still running > noticeably hotter.  My understanding is that both inverters in this > system are essentially “Masters”, since this is grid-tied.  Shouldn’t > the load/generation be split between the two and hence they run > equally as hot?  I did check the stacking and they were both set to > “Master” which is I think what they recommended for grid-tie.  I tried > switching the ports on the Hub that they are plugged into to see if > that would change anything, but no change.  I did also noticed while I > was there last week that while both inverters had the solid yellow “AC > IN” light on, inverter #2’s green “Inverter” light was always on, > while inverter #1’s green “Inverter” seemed to come and go… > > Any ideas? > > Thanks as always, > Amos > > > > > > > >        Amos Post > Integrity Energy >   W 802.763.7023 >    C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > >> On Apr 15, 2025, at 8:40 AM, Amos Post >> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I decided to start with the simple stuff.  While I don’t have a >> string curve tester (I should have one), yesterday I tested strings >> 1,2,3 individually under load.  String 3 is the one that’s been >> blowing the fuse.  I did not test strings 4-6 which are on a separate >> charge controller and combiner.  Here are the results: >> >> String 1- 7.1A at 76V >> String 2- 7.77Aat 79V >> String 3-7.13A at 78.3V >> >> I did notice that the second charge controller with strings 4-6 was >> running about 100watts more (1800w vs 1700w).  The conditions were >> clear blue skies.  I replaced the fuse holder and fuse.  If it blows >> again I’ll try switching strings to see if it follows… >> >> Thanks for your feedback and I’ll keep ya’ll posted. >> >> Amos >> >> >> >> >>        Amos Post >> Integrity Energy >>   W 802.763.7023 >>    C 802.291.2188 >> ienergyVT.com >> Facebook >> >>> On Apr 11, 2025, at 4:07 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches, Amos, blowing of a 15 amp fuse is not a ghost in the >>> machine, it is an actual issue no way around it, shorted modules, >>> shorted diodes, in most cases it's a home run, way back when USE-2 >>> white wure was failing and would crack and break off mostly this >>> would result in a GFI trip. The fuse is blowing because of over >>> current and a single string of your vintage will max out at far less >>> than 10 amps but the other two strings will back feed this fuse with >>> close to 20 then pop. >>> Sharp had module failures resulting in cell shorts, look very close >>> there. I have inspected arrays with extreme exposure differences, >>> this will effect performance but should not pop a fuse. Do you have >>> a module string curve tester, this very well may show an issue of >>> the string but eyes on the array is required to located the cause. >>> I have seen nails through wires, conduit, racking in contact with >>> the back of the module but this will trip the GFI breaker not the >>> string fuse. >>> Fun times. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025, 12:49 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> One time I had similar, but different problem:  1 Amp ground >>> fault fuse consistently blowing, sometimes after 1 day sometimes >>> after weeks/months.  I tried everything - replaced home runs, >>> checked VOC, VMP, swapped DC input into a different inverter, >>> etc. it kept coming back to this one string. I checked every >>> module VOC, ISC, every connection, no pinched wires, no >>> discernible problem, but fuse blowing. >>>    Luckily it was a medium size commercial job (on a fire >>> station) so I was able to scatter all the modules of this >>> suspect string all over the roof, and carefully track where I >>> had put them. That’s when the problem went away and never came >>> back..😂 >>>   Best I could figure was a slight manufacturing error that had >>> a compounding/cumulative effect. So once I got those consecutive >>> serial numbers away from each other no more problem. Either that >>> or the fire chief was fucking with me and he was burning out the >>> fuses, which I doubt >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:05 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello Amos, >>> >>> Have you checked for voltage imbalance for each string?  If >>> you have a bad diode, that string may run low on voltage and >>> be trying to send current toward the weak string (this is >>> the reason you have these breakers).  I'd run each string >>> independently and see what Vmp is.  If you are missing some >>> voltage that may be a clue.  You can also independently >>> clamp each string during operation. >>> >>> I like IR cameras for this type of thing.  It may just be a >>> bad connection, heat build up, fuse holder issue. >>> >>> Let us know what you find out >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:07 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> I have a bit of a puzzler that I’m trying to get sorted >>> out.  I’ve been servicing a Grid-Tied Battery Backup >>> system that’s about 17-18 years old.  The system >>> comprises of 2-GVFX3648s in series, with 2-MX60(at least >>> I think they are 60s) CC’s. Each CC has 3 strings of 3 >>> tied to it, and each string has a 15A in-line 600V fuse. >>> The modules are I believe are like 230/240Watt 60 cell >>> modules (sorry I don’t have pictures/specifics).   We >>> replaced the flooded batteries with AGMs about a year >>> and a half ago. >>> >>> The situation is one of the 15A string fuses keeps >>> blowing.  It’s now happened 3 times and its the same >>> fuse every time.  First we just replaced the fuse and >>> under the surge/lightning assumption.  Fuse blew again. >>> Then I thought I found the culprit.  The #6 PV output >>> from the combiner to the PV input breaker for the CC was >>> a bit darkened and very warm to the touch when I >>> replaced the fuse the first time.   So I though maybe it >>> was a loose connection on that lug and that caused >>> everything to heat up and eventually blow the fuse.  I >>> cut and stripped the wire back and cleaned the lug and >>> re-seated the wire in the lug.  Fuse blew again within a >>> few months time.  I then checked the Junction box on the >>> roof where the USE-2 wire connects to THHN, and did a >>> visual inspection of all the wiring on the roof.  All of >>> the Jbox connections and everything on the roof “looked” >>> ok.  I have also check all of the connections inside the >>> Outback DC load center, and they look ok. Fuse replaced >>> 3rd time and then it blew again. >>> >>> Before I take all of the panels off the rack, check >>> panels, re-check string wiring on the roof, is there >>> anything else I should be checking?  Seems like that >>> warm wire in the Combiner box is telling me something >>> but I can’t figure out what...I believe this is a new >>> problem in the last 2-3 years but we are not 100% sure >>> when the problem first came up… >>> >>> As always, thanks for your help/ suggestions! >>> Amos >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>        Amos Post >>> Integrity Energy >>>   W 802.763.7023 >>>    C 802.291.2188 >>> ienergyVT.com >>> Facebook >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>> doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> * >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> * >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon May 12 12:46:34 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 09:46:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All sounds wrong to me. Call Outback. Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the > logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike > some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input > in an off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load > breaker, which isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable > circuit. This is problematic because it seemingly has a normally open > internal relay that closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, > that's how it seems to work in my limited experience. > > Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low > voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter > ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but > since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would > have to reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the > current battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS > fails to start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to > charge the battery manually is no easy task. > > Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an > OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the > inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON > somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And > since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, > non-intuitive, and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm > not sure if you can even turn the inverter ON when there is generator > input and the battery is too low. I don't think you can because the > relay is open and the inverter doesn't even see generator voltage when > it is in an OFF state. > > This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the > other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will > both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is > on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or > Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. > This is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition > is met, and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the > battery conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. > > The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met > and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong > about how this works? > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon May 12 12:47:56 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 09:47:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the > logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike > some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input > in an off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load > breaker, which isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable > circuit. This is problematic because it seemingly has a normally open > internal relay that closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, > that's how it seems to work in my limited experience. > > Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low > voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter > ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but > since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would > have to reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the > current battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS > fails to start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to > charge the battery manually is no easy task. > > Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an > OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the > inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON > somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And > since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, > non-intuitive, and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm > not sure if you can even turn the inverter ON when there is generator > input and the battery is too low. I don't think you can because the > relay is open and the inverter doesn't even see generator voltage when > it is in an OFF state. > > This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the > other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will > both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is > on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or > Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. > This is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition > is met, and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the > battery conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. > > The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met > and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong > about how this works? > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 12 12:48:42 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 10:48:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String fuse blown In-Reply-To: References: <5E30B5B8-C3F0-4EEA-8DAA-99D10497DB84@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9B8F0F0B-60BB-4EF0-92A5-1AF9BBF34F55@gmail.com> good point. For GT OB systems I have removed the side screens for better air flow and I’ve also taken the covers off and used external fans to cool them. They just were not designed to run anywhere near rated capacity for long periods of time, they don’t have enough air cooling. > On May 12, 2025, at 10:41 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Is inverter 2 on top? The top inverter in an Outback dual stack always runs hotter, because the heat from the bottom inverter is adding to its own heat. I used to see that consistently cause board failures on the top inverter more often, if the whole system was running close to capacity. > > Ray Walters > > On 5/12/2025 7:56 AM, Amos Post via RE-wrenches wrote: >> UPDATE: >> >> So far so good and since replacing the fuse holder, fuse #3 has not blown again. >> >> ANOTHER ISSUE: >> >> Inverter 2 runs hotter than inverter 1. Reminder this is grid-tied system with 2-GVFX3648’s in series for 120/240V. The fan on inverter #2 had malfunctioned, but I was able to replace it and get that going again. Even with the replaced fan, inverter #2 is still running noticeably hotter. My understanding is that both inverters in this system are essentially “Masters”, since this is grid-tied. Shouldn’t the load/generation be split between the two and hence they run equally as hot? I did check the stacking and they were both set to “Master” which is I think what they recommended for grid-tie. I tried switching the ports on the Hub that they are plugged into to see if that would change anything, but no change. I did also noticed while I was there last week that while both inverters had the solid yellow “AC IN” light on, inverter #2’s green “Inverter” light was always on, while inverter #1’s green “Inverter” seemed to come and go… >> >> Any ideas? >> >> Thanks as always, >> Amos >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Amos Post >> Integrity Energy >> W 802.763.7023 >> C 802.291.2188 >> ienergyVT.com >> Facebook >> >>> On Apr 15, 2025, at 8:40 AM, Amos Post > wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I decided to start with the simple stuff. While I don’t have a string curve tester (I should have one), yesterday I tested strings 1,2,3 individually under load. String 3 is the one that’s been blowing the fuse. I did not test strings 4-6 which are on a separate charge controller and combiner. Here are the results: >>> >>> String 1- 7.1A at 76V >>> String 2- 7.77Aat 79V >>> String 3-7.13A at 78.3V >>> >>> I did notice that the second charge controller with strings 4-6 was running about 100watts more (1800w vs 1700w). The conditions were clear blue skies. I replaced the fuse holder and fuse. If it blows again I’ll try switching strings to see if it follows… >>> >>> Thanks for your feedback and I’ll keep ya’ll posted. >>> >>> Amos >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Amos Post >>> Integrity Energy >>> W 802.763.7023 >>> C 802.291.2188 >>> ienergyVT.com >>> Facebook >>> >>>> On Apr 11, 2025, at 4:07 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> >>>> Wrenches, Amos, blowing of a 15 amp fuse is not a ghost in the machine, it is an actual issue no way around it, shorted modules, shorted diodes, in most cases it's a home run, way back when USE-2 white wure was failing and would crack and break off mostly this would result in a GFI trip. The fuse is blowing because of over current and a single string of your vintage will max out at far less than 10 amps but the other two strings will back feed this fuse with close to 20 then pop. >>>> Sharp had module failures resulting in cell shorts, look very close there. I have inspected arrays with extreme exposure differences, this will effect performance but should not pop a fuse. Do you have a module string curve tester, this very well may show an issue of the string but eyes on the array is required to located the cause. >>>> I have seen nails through wires, conduit, racking in contact with the back of the module but this will trip the GFI breaker not the string fuse. >>>> Fun times. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025, 12:49 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> One time I had similar, but different problem: 1 Amp ground fault fuse consistently blowing, sometimes after 1 day sometimes after weeks/months. I tried everything - replaced home runs, checked VOC, VMP, swapped DC input into a different inverter, etc. it kept coming back to this one string. I checked every module VOC, ISC, every connection, no pinched wires, no discernible problem, but fuse blowing. >>>>> Luckily it was a medium size commercial job (on a fire station) so I was able to scatter all the modules of this suspect string all over the roof, and carefully track where I had put them. That’s when the problem went away and never came back..😂 >>>>> Best I could figure was a slight manufacturing error that had a compounding/cumulative effect. So once I got those consecutive serial numbers away from each other no more problem. Either that or the fire chief was fucking with me and he was burning out the fuses, which I doubt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:05 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> Hello Amos, >>>>>> >>>>>> Have you checked for voltage imbalance for each string? If you have a bad diode, that string may run low on voltage and be trying to send current toward the weak string (this is the reason you have these breakers). I'd run each string independently and see what Vmp is. If you are missing some voltage that may be a clue. You can also independently clamp each string during operation. >>>>>> >>>>>> I like IR cameras for this type of thing. It may just be a bad connection, heat build up, fuse holder issue. >>>>>> >>>>>> Let us know what you find out >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:07 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have a bit of a puzzler that I’m trying to get sorted out. I’ve been servicing a Grid-Tied Battery Backup system that’s about 17-18 years old. The system comprises of 2-GVFX3648s in series, with 2-MX60(at least I think they are 60s) CC’s. Each CC has 3 strings of 3 tied to it, and each string has a 15A in-line 600V fuse. The modules are I believe are like 230/240Watt 60 cell modules (sorry I don’t have pictures/specifics). We replaced the flooded batteries with AGMs about a year and a half ago. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The situation is one of the 15A string fuses keeps blowing. It’s now happened 3 times and its the same fuse every time. First we just replaced the fuse and under the surge/lightning assumption. Fuse blew again. Then I thought I found the culprit. The #6 PV output from the combiner to the PV input breaker for the CC was a bit darkened and very warm to the touch when I replaced the fuse the first time. So I though maybe it was a loose connection on that lug and that caused everything to heat up and eventually blow the fuse. I cut and stripped the wire back and cleaned the lug and re-seated the wire in the lug. Fuse blew again within a few months time. I then checked the Junction box on the roof where the USE-2 wire connects to THHN, and did a visual inspection of all the wiring on the roof. All of the Jbox connections and everything on the roof “looked” ok. I have also check all of the connections inside the Outback DC load center, and they look ok. Fuse replaced 3rd time and then it blew again. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Before I take all of the panels off the rack, check panels, re-check string wiring on the roof, is there anything else I should be checking? Seems like that warm wire in the Combiner box is telling me something but I can’t figure out what...I believe this is a new problem in the last 2-3 years but we are not 100% sure when the problem first came up… >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As always, thanks for your help/ suggestions! >>>>>>> Amos >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Amos Post >>>>>>> Integrity Energy >>>>>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>>>>> ienergyVT.com >>>>>>> Facebook >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mac Lewis >>>>>> >>>>>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Mon May 12 12:53:31 2025 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 12:53:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String fuse blown In-Reply-To: <9B8F0F0B-60BB-4EF0-92A5-1AF9BBF34F55@gmail.com> References: <5E30B5B8-C3F0-4EEA-8DAA-99D10497DB84@gmail.com> <9B8F0F0B-60BB-4EF0-92A5-1AF9BBF34F55@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57435198-81AF-4C8A-A4D2-004998949163@gmail.com> Oh I forgot to mention the inverters are side x side on 2 individual Panels…. Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook > On May 12, 2025, at 12:48 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > good point. > For GT OB systems I have removed the side screens for better air flow and I’ve also taken the covers off and used external fans to cool them. > > They just were not designed to run anywhere near rated capacity for long periods of time, they don’t have enough air cooling. > >> On May 12, 2025, at 10:41 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Is inverter 2 on top? The top inverter in an Outback dual stack always runs hotter, because the heat from the bottom inverter is adding to its own heat. I used to see that consistently cause board failures on the top inverter more often, if the whole system was running close to capacity. >> >> Ray Walters >> >> On 5/12/2025 7:56 AM, Amos Post via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> UPDATE: >>> >>> So far so good and since replacing the fuse holder, fuse #3 has not blown again. >>> >>> ANOTHER ISSUE: >>> >>> Inverter 2 runs hotter than inverter 1. Reminder this is grid-tied system with 2-GVFX3648’s in series for 120/240V. The fan on inverter #2 had malfunctioned, but I was able to replace it and get that going again. Even with the replaced fan, inverter #2 is still running noticeably hotter. My understanding is that both inverters in this system are essentially “Masters”, since this is grid-tied. Shouldn’t the load/generation be split between the two and hence they run equally as hot? I did check the stacking and they were both set to “Master” which is I think what they recommended for grid-tie. I tried switching the ports on the Hub that they are plugged into to see if that would change anything, but no change. I did also noticed while I was there last week that while both inverters had the solid yellow “AC IN” light on, inverter #2’s green “Inverter” light was always on, while inverter #1’s green “Inverter” seemed to come and go… >>> >>> Any ideas? >>> >>> Thanks as always, >>> Amos >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Amos Post >>> Integrity Energy >>> W 802.763.7023 >>> C 802.291.2188 >>> ienergyVT.com >>> Facebook >>> >>>> On Apr 15, 2025, at 8:40 AM, Amos Post > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I decided to start with the simple stuff. While I don’t have a string curve tester (I should have one), yesterday I tested strings 1,2,3 individually under load. String 3 is the one that’s been blowing the fuse. I did not test strings 4-6 which are on a separate charge controller and combiner. Here are the results: >>>> >>>> String 1- 7.1A at 76V >>>> String 2- 7.77Aat 79V >>>> String 3-7.13A at 78.3V >>>> >>>> I did notice that the second charge controller with strings 4-6 was running about 100watts more (1800w vs 1700w). The conditions were clear blue skies. I replaced the fuse holder and fuse. If it blows again I’ll try switching strings to see if it follows… >>>> >>>> Thanks for your feedback and I’ll keep ya’ll posted. >>>> >>>> Amos >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Amos Post >>>> Integrity Energy >>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>> ienergyVT.com >>>> Facebook >>>> >>>>> On Apr 11, 2025, at 4:07 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Wrenches, Amos, blowing of a 15 amp fuse is not a ghost in the machine, it is an actual issue no way around it, shorted modules, shorted diodes, in most cases it's a home run, way back when USE-2 white wure was failing and would crack and break off mostly this would result in a GFI trip. The fuse is blowing because of over current and a single string of your vintage will max out at far less than 10 amps but the other two strings will back feed this fuse with close to 20 then pop. >>>>> Sharp had module failures resulting in cell shorts, look very close there. I have inspected arrays with extreme exposure differences, this will effect performance but should not pop a fuse. Do you have a module string curve tester, this very well may show an issue of the string but eyes on the array is required to located the cause. >>>>> I have seen nails through wires, conduit, racking in contact with the back of the module but this will trip the GFI breaker not the string fuse. >>>>> Fun times. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025, 12:49 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> One time I had similar, but different problem: 1 Amp ground fault fuse consistently blowing, sometimes after 1 day sometimes after weeks/months. I tried everything - replaced home runs, checked VOC, VMP, swapped DC input into a different inverter, etc. it kept coming back to this one string. I checked every module VOC, ISC, every connection, no pinched wires, no discernible problem, but fuse blowing. >>>>> Luckily it was a medium size commercial job (on a fire station) so I was able to scatter all the modules of this suspect string all over the roof, and carefully track where I had put them. That’s when the problem went away and never came back..😂 >>>>> Best I could figure was a slight manufacturing error that had a compounding/cumulative effect. So once I got those consecutive serial numbers away from each other no more problem. Either that or the fire chief was fucking with me and he was burning out the fuses, which I doubt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:05 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> Hello Amos, >>>>> >>>>> Have you checked for voltage imbalance for each string? If you have a bad diode, that string may run low on voltage and be trying to send current toward the weak string (this is the reason you have these breakers). I'd run each string independently and see what Vmp is. If you are missing some voltage that may be a clue. You can also independently clamp each string during operation. >>>>> >>>>> I like IR cameras for this type of thing. It may just be a bad connection, heat build up, fuse holder issue. >>>>> >>>>> Let us know what you find out >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:07 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> I have a bit of a puzzler that I’m trying to get sorted out. I’ve been servicing a Grid-Tied Battery Backup system that’s about 17-18 years old. The system comprises of 2-GVFX3648s in series, with 2-MX60(at least I think they are 60s) CC’s. Each CC has 3 strings of 3 tied to it, and each string has a 15A in-line 600V fuse. The modules are I believe are like 230/240Watt 60 cell modules (sorry I don’t have pictures/specifics). We replaced the flooded batteries with AGMs about a year and a half ago. >>>>> >>>>> The situation is one of the 15A string fuses keeps blowing. It’s now happened 3 times and its the same fuse every time. First we just replaced the fuse and under the surge/lightning assumption. Fuse blew again. Then I thought I found the culprit. The #6 PV output from the combiner to the PV input breaker for the CC was a bit darkened and very warm to the touch when I replaced the fuse the first time. So I though maybe it was a loose connection on that lug and that caused everything to heat up and eventually blow the fuse. I cut and stripped the wire back and cleaned the lug and re-seated the wire in the lug. Fuse blew again within a few months time. I then checked the Junction box on the roof where the USE-2 wire connects to THHN, and did a visual inspection of all the wiring on the roof. All of the Jbox connections and everything on the roof “looked” ok. I have also check all of the connections inside the Outback DC load center, and they look ok. Fuse replaced 3rd time and then it blew again. >>>>> >>>>> Before I take all of the panels off the rack, check panels, re-check string wiring on the roof, is there anything else I should be checking? Seems like that warm wire in the Combiner box is telling me something but I can’t figure out what...I believe this is a new problem in the last 2-3 years but we are not 100% sure when the problem first came up… >>>>> >>>>> As always, thanks for your help/ suggestions! >>>>> Amos >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Amos Post >>>>> Integrity Energy >>>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>>> ienergyVT.com >>>>> Facebook >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mac Lewis >>>>> >>>>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon May 12 12:54:14 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 09:54:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the inverter back on automatically. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. > > Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to > bypass the inverter and power loads. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the > logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of > the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an > off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which > isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is > problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that > closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work > in my limited experience. > > Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low voltage > cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON for the > generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since the > battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to reprogram > the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current battery > state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to start the > generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the battery > manually is no easy task. > > Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an OFF > state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter ON > automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that the > generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup > sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, > that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the > inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I > don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even > see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. > This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the > other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both > immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, > regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator > input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is > because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and > they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery > conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. > > The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met and > opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about how > this works? > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon May 12 12:58:25 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 10:58:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid In-Reply-To: <2e5dc4712982c3944c1233057de05a2e@redwoodalliance.org> References: <79FF888F-4A00-4703-89B7-5DE99D35BC68@gmail.com> <2e5dc4712982c3944c1233057de05a2e@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <57205600-f152-437c-8c36-56685b780a40@solarray.com> I had many more failures with the VFX inverters, but at least we could rebuild them in the field.  I think the old Trace stuff was the pinacle of reliability.  I still have many SWs going well over 20 years.  I had great luck with Magnum, until I got my first dud last year.  Now they're out, but I'm installing a used one soon. I'm really at a loss as to what to deploy at this point.  The AIOs are not the answer for offgrid, but I'm going to give a Midnite Rosie a try next, I think. I've been happy with Midnite's 600 v Charge Controllers, except don't use them on 24v!  (48v only) I've tried some Victron stuff, which also requires a phone app and blue tooth to program.  Manuals could definitely use more info, and tech support has been non existent.  I use them for small projects (inverter < 2 kW) for now. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/12/2025 9:52 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Was Outback woes. > > Hi Ray, > > I agree completely. Off grid reached its peak reliability and then > declined. I thought it peaked with the VFX and Radian inverters, both > of which could have stood some improvements. With the VFXR and the > Radian A, The inverters seemed to be made more cheaply and more prone > to problems. The rest is history. > > The reliance on cell phones and internet seems to me to be completely > against the spirit of self reliant off grid systems. In the old days, > I would set up a system and after a bit (or lot) of messing around > would work for years. > > What is the best off grid inverter to use these days? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > /Drake Chamberlin/ > > /Athens Electric LLC/ > > /Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810/ > > /NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/ > > --- > > > On 2025-05-11 14:37, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> I agree Michael, my call backs and free trips are way up with Li >> batteries and AIO.  I just don't know what the system is doing or >> what to expect from the settings.  Dark Start has now become a normal >> thing.  My blood pressure is off the charts trying to talk to tech >> support with one bar of cell service.  I have a DC power supply and >> inverter to restart the batts.  I now own a PC laptop that's sole >> purpose is firmware updates. >> >> Guess what? Lead acid almost never needed a trip out to restart.  The >> sun comes out, and it starts recharging. Lead acid is SELF HEALING. I >> just can't get LVD settings that keep Li bats out of dark start >> territory.  All is fine until its not.  Here's some experiences: >> >> 1) A Fortress firmware glitch that shut the whole system down when it >> reached 100% SOC. >> Result: rotten food in both freezers, customer confidence: they sold >> the property. >> Solution: upgrade Fortress Firmware. >> >> 2) Simpliphi and XW system works fine for 5 years, then a low battery >> issue during bad weather causes all 4 Simpliphi batteries to fry. >> Result: customer is on generator full time for 2 months. >> Solution: finally get replacement batteries and replace XW inverter >> with Magnum. >> >> 3) Homegrid batteries go into dark mode after solar shuts off for a >> couple of days.  No battery voltage to turn on charge controller >> again.  Result: 3 trips out to restart batteries, and hang out for >> hours to make sure the inverter will reconnect, and stay connected. >> Solution: still not sure, I raised the LVD and reconnect voltages, >> but the battery's no load draw from the BMS seems to be very >> significant. >> >> 4) Midnite AIO won't connect to phone app, which is the only way to >> program it.  I turn on the inverter, and it just bricks. >> Result: It can't function out of the box without being setup with the >> phone app that doesn't always work. >> Solution: after 2-1/2 hours on a bad connection with Tech support, we >> finally get the inverter to reset and start working properly.  I had >> to delete and reload the phone app 5 times before it would finally >> connect to the inverter.   What's going to happen when you come back >> in 5 years with a different phone? >> >> I can share more with other companies I've tried including Rubix, and >> Blue Planet.  The only Li battery I've not had trouble with was LiFe >> Blue (thanks Larry), but they're only for 12v systems.   I am still >> installing lead acid for many of my customers, because we know what >> to expect. A lesser evil is better than the unknown that can be much >> worse.  Retirement can't come too soon. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> On 5/11/2025 9:47 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> I wonder where all this is going? A plethora of Chinese ( I >>> understand virtually everything electronic is manufactured there) >>> AIOs and batteries, each with their own communication protocols, >>> programing parameters, and individual peculiarities. I say this with >>> all modesty and humility, that until a few years ago, it was a rare >>> troubleshooting situation that I needed guidance from tech support >>> for most anything. Now the extent of my prowess has been reduced to: >>> "power cycle" it and if that doesn't work call tech support, and >>> then be prepared for a frustrating, protracted, and costly in terms >>> of my time, experience. >>> I also wonder if it's sort of a "race to the bottom" (thanks for >>> that one Bob-O) as far a quality goes. Discover discontinued it's >>> AES battery which I think was the pinnacle, and replaced it with the >>> Helios (which I have high hopes for). I'm hoping it's not a clone of >>> all the others that are similar and I understand that the AES simply >>> couldn't compete. >>> Just my mind dump sans edit >>> >>> On Sun, May 11, 2025 at 8:17 AM Jay >> > wrote: >>> >>> Fortress and eg4 both use the same basic LUX made inverters. >>> Sol ark is made by DEYE. >>> >>>> On May 11, 2025, at 8:04 AM, Michael Morningstar via >>>> RE-wrenches >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> How does the Lux, Envy, and Sol-Ark compare to Midnite's AIO? I >>>> was all on board the Midnite train but I'm coming to the >>>> conclusion that they released it prematurely. Glitchy and Quirky. >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 11, 2025 at 7:40 AM Jay via RE-wrenches >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> One of the things I like about the LUX is that you can do >>>> programming with the built in display. >>>> The online monitoring is good as Maverick says. >>>> I also think it's way more accurate as well. >>>> The LUX 12kw is a solid unit. >>>> Jay >>>> >>>>> On May 11, 2025, at 7:35 AM, Maverick Brown via >>>>> RE-wrenches >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> William, >>>>> I have both the ENVY and Radian (and XW at my own home). >>>>> The ENVY online experience is great. It may have replaced >>>>> the Sol-Ark online monitoring as my favorite. (I have >>>>> installed about 20 Sol-Arks and they also have tons of >>>>> data and a great overall online experience). >>>>> The data collected by ENVY is far greater than OpticsRE, >>>>> many more parameters are saved. ENVY also has a working >>>>> smart phone App that shows more data than the now offline >>>>> / defunct OpticsRE app. >>>>> OpticsRE does log enough data to understand that the >>>>> system is functioning, but the additional AC data and way >>>>> the information is presented gives ENVY far superior >>>>> results. I do lean more towards the way OpticsRE allows >>>>> editing parameters on the Devices section. That's likely >>>>> because I am more familiar with the terminology. But, The >>>>> ENVY Inverter has a built in display / touch screen that >>>>> allows you to edit all of the values and make the system >>>>> work without any internet / wireless / bluetooth >>>>> connection. That is a great fall back. I am used to the >>>>> MATE3s, but new customers have a crazy time with learning >>>>> how it works and where values are able to be changed. The >>>>> ENVY App bridges that gap! >>>>> Now the dream part is that since Outback is now owned by >>>>> the same people that also sell the EG4 18kPV (which is >>>>> also made by Luxpower just like the ENVY), the best of >>>>> both worlds could come about == more data collected and an >>>>> available and a solid smart phone app for customers that >>>>> want such a thing. >>>>> The screenshot of the app is straight forward and the tabs >>>>> at the bottom show charts, alarms and settings. >>>>> The screenshot for desktop is very detailed and you can >>>>> scroll down on the first page and get 3-4 screenfuls of >>>>> data for just about anything you want to know. >>>>> Let me know if you have a specific question, I can give >>>>> you a comparison. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Maverick Brown >>>>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >>>>> *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* >>>>> * • Solar Commander Remote Power* >>>>> * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >>>>> *maverick at mavericksolar.com >>>>> >>>>> 512-460-9825 >>>>> >>>>>> On May 10, 2025, at 9:58 PM, William Miller via >>>>>> RE-wrenches >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Bought a VFXR3648 and two FXR3048s recently. They >>>>>> actually worked!  Miracle. >>>>>> >>>>>> The client for which I am suggesting an Envy 12 instead >>>>>> of new FM100s is really attached to Optics. Now that >>>>>> Optics is unreliable it is easier to suggest an alternative. >>>>>> I'd like to hear about the Envy on-line interface. Is it ok? >>>>>> >>>>>> William Miller >>>>>> Miller Solar.com >>>>>> 805-438-5600 >>>>>> www.millersolar.com >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, May 10, 2025 at 12:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches >>>>>> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> As a follow up. >>>>>> Has anyone purchased a new OB inverter or CC or mate. >>>>>> I mean specifically remote new outback company. >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 10, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Todd Cory via >>>>>>> RE-wrenches >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, Outback's Optics RE is down yet again, also >>>>>>> the back up site too and also the users forum... >>>>>>> which had a massive database of current and past >>>>>>> problem solving archives. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What a clusterfuck this new company is. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wise wrenches should beware of patronizing this >>>>>>> obvious sinking ship. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Todd >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: >>>>>>> http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>>>>>> doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>>>>> doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>>>>> doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>>>> doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>> work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Michael Morningstar >>>> >>>> Morningstar Electric Inc >>>> >>>> PO Box 1494 >>>> >>>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >>>> >>>> 530-921-0560 >>>> >>>> CSLB 1116835 >>>> >>>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>> work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Michael Morningstar >>> >>> Morningstar Electric Inc >>> >>> PO Box 1494 >>> >>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >>> >>> 530-921-0560 >>> >>> CSLB 1116835 >>> >>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon May 12 13:11:30 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 11:11:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging backside.  Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the customer could get the inverter back on too.  No special trip out. We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid battery.  Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like Lead Acid.  We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse.  (Danger Will Robinson) Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send > generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For > retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. > > As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical > bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the > generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the > default function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. > AC voltage on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay > and turn the inverter back on automatically. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. > Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the > gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in >> the logic for how generator integration works with this >> product. Unlike some of the other AIOs, you can't put the >> generator on the Grid input in an off-grid scenario. You have to >> use the Generator smart load breaker, which isn't a dedicated >> generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is problematic >> because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it >> seems to work in my limited experience. >> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the >> low voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the >> inverter ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge >> the battery, but since the battery is too low, the inverter won't >> turn on. You would have to reprogram the inverter to drop the >> cutoff voltage/SOC below the current battery state. For people >> who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to start the >> generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >> battery manually is no easy task. >> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is >> in an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not >> turn the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter >> turned ON somehow so that the generator power can pass through to >> the loads. And since the startup sequence for this inverter is >> very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, that makes the >> problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the >> inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too >> low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the >> inverter doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF >> state. >> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one >> of the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and >> EG4 18kPV will both immediately power loads and start charging >> when the generator is on, regardless of whether the generator is >> connected to the Grid or Generator input. Any AC input >> immediately passes through to the loads. This is because those >> inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and they >> simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff >> is met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. >> Am I wrong about how this works? >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Mon May 12 13:33:02 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 10:33:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon May 12 15:15:46 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 12:15:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <893570ab971f4f612fffb713a496e234@sti.net> I just can't believe that Midnite would not have solar stay on after LBCO ! Schneider and Outback always did this from a long way back to Trace. Hear the water sound as it circles the drain? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-05-12 10:33 am, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: > We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. > In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the > background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the > next day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > >> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> wrote: > > So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always > recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power > supply to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious > pain in my aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid > would have enough voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, > and eventually the customer could get the inverter back on too. No > special trip out. > > We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake > up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the > offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self > healing like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an > amazing amount of new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. > (Danger Will Robinson) > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send > generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For > retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. > > As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical > bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator > input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default > function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC > voltage on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and > turn the inverter back on automatically. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. > > Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to > bypass the inverter and power loads. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the > logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike > some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input > in an off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load > breaker, which isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable > circuit. This is problematic because it seemingly has a normally open > internal relay that closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, > that's how it seems to work in my limited experience. > > Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low > voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter > ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but > since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would > have to reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the > current battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS > fails to start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to > charge the battery manually is no easy task. > > Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an > OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the > inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON > somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And > since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, > non-intuitive, and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm > not sure if you can even turn the inverter ON when there is generator > input and the battery is too low. I don't think you can because the > relay is open and the inverter doesn't even see generator voltage when > it is in an OFF state. > > This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the > other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will > both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is > on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or > Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. > This is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition > is met, and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the > battery conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. > > The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met > and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong > about how this works? > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon May 12 16:00:19 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 14:00:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That has not been my experience.  I have had to manually reboot Solark systems numerous time off grid.  If there is snow on the array or otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off.   This would be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming back. Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark:  its really not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact.  I'm sure there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned Obsolescence?  That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: > We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. > In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the > background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the > next day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > >> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always >> recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power >> supply to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a >> serious pain in my aging backside.  Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, >> lead acid would have enough voltage to get the charge controller to >> come back on, and eventually the customer could get the inverter back >> on too.  No special trip out. >> >> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and >> wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for >> the offgrid battery.  Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not >> self healing like Lead Acid.  We are going backwards fast, but with >> an amazing amount of new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in >> reverse.  (Danger Will Robinson) >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and >>> send generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. >>> For retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>> >>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical >>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the >>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the >>> default function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns >>> off. AC voltage on the load side of the breaker does not close the >>> relay and turn the inverter back on automatically. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the >>> gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw >>>> in the logic for how generator integration works with this >>>> product. Unlike some of the other AIOs, you can't put the >>>> generator on the Grid input in an off-grid scenario. You have >>>> to use the Generator smart load breaker, which isn't a >>>> dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal >>>> relay that closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, >>>> that's how it seems to work in my limited experience. >>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the >>>> low voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn >>>> the inverter ON for the generator relay to close so you can >>>> charge the battery, but since the battery is too low, the >>>> inverter won't turn on. You would have to reprogram the >>>> inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS >>>> fails to start the generator for any reason, getting the >>>> generator to charge the battery manually is no easy task. >>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter >>>> is in an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will >>>> not turn the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the >>>> inverter turned ON somehow so that the generator power can pass >>>> through to the loads. And since the startup sequence for this >>>> inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, that >>>> makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn >>>> the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery >>>> is too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and >>>> the inverter doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in >>>> an OFF state. >>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one >>>> of the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and >>>> EG4 18kPV will both immediately power loads and start charging >>>> when the generator is on, regardless of whether the generator >>>> is connected to the Grid or Generator input. Any AC input >>>> immediately passes through to the loads. This is because those >>>> inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >>>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the >>>> battery conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff >>>> is met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to >>>> me. Am I wrong about how this works? >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>> work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon May 12 17:24:27 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 17:24:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with that yet. Cheers, Dave On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot Solark > systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or otherwise > low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then takes the > battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would be a > different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for > vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming back. > > Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really not > clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure > there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least > you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to > get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. > > BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 > years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned > Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > > > On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. In > the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the background > and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next day and > turn itself back on and provide AC power output. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > >  > > So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend a > hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get the > battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging > backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough > voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the > customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. > > We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake up > the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid > battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like > Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new > Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send > generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, > sometimes there can be space limitations, however. > > As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical bypass, > and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator input (or > smart load output on that breaker), I think the default function is for the > relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load side of > the breaker does not close the relay and turn the inverter back on > automatically. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > >> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >> >> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to >> bypass the inverter and power loads. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the >> logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of >> the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >> in my limited experience. >> >> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >> battery manually is no easy task. >> >> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an >> OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter >> ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that >> the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup >> sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, >> that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the >> inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I >> don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even >> see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the >> other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both >> immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >> >> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met >> and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about >> how this works? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Mon May 12 18:52:44 2025 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 18:52:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In our off grid SolArk systems we've installed a simple AC feed from a Gen only 30a AC panel with a single pole, 15a breaker. It only supplies power to the breaker when the gennie is running. We then ran a #14 to power the transducer that allows the RSD devices to power up and that"turns on" pv charging. It's a simple, graceful solution to a real pita problem. The modules charge while the gennie is running, until it gets to the programmed restart for the batteries. Daryl DeJoy Island Energy Storage NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter gets > to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed loop > comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite AIO > setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with that > yet. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot Solark >> systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or otherwise >> low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then takes the >> battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would be a >> different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for >> vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming back. >> >> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really not >> clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure >> there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least >> you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to >> get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >> >> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 >> years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned >> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> >> >> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. In >> the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the background >> and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next day and >> turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend >> a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get >> the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging >> backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >> >> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake >> up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid >> battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like >> Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new >> Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send >> generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, >> sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >> >> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical bypass, >> and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator input (or >> smart load output on that breaker), I think the default function is for the >> relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load side of >> the breaker does not close the relay and turn the inverter back on >> automatically. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>> >>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to >>> bypass the inverter and power loads. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the >>> logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of >>> the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>> in my limited experience. >>> >>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >>> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >>> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >>> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>> battery manually is no easy task. >>> >>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an >>> OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter >>> ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that >>> the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup >>> sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, >>> that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the >>> inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I >>> don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even >>> see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the >>> other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both >>> immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >>> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >>> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >>> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>> >>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met >>> and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about >>> how this works? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon May 12 18:57:54 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 18:57:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: With the AIO, there are a few different basic settings that affect the charging scenario for using a generator to charge the batteries: The Gen start and stop relay (simple open and closed dry contact) and the battery charging parameter (which determines what SOC the AIO will charge the batteries to). It wasn't intuitive for me at first, but now that I'm used to it, it's not complicated. - If I'm using the AIO to start the generator I set the battery charging to start at whatever SOC the client wants to let the batteries discharge to before the gen kicks in, typically somewhere between 25% and 35% (depending on battery capacity, time of year, size of array, size of loads, etc). There is an AGS off setting, which I might set at anywhere from 45% to 85%, again depending on site factors. If the battery charging parameter is set lower than the ending AGS setting, the generator will continue to run and only carry the loads, but not charge the batteries - obviously not a recommended scenario. - If the client is manually starting and stopping the generator, then I set the AGS start at as high as it will go (90%) and stop at 100%, but disengage the remote genstart signal either at the generator or with an interrupting switch in the control wires. Otherwise if the SOC is higher the the gen start setting when the generator is manually turned on, the AIO will only use the generator to carry the loads, and again, not charge the batteries. There is a "force charge" setting which tells the AIO to charge the batteries if AC is present regardless of the other settings, but I believe this setting drops back to off when the charging stops, so the 90% gen start setting is more reliable for manual gen starting. If the client is bouncing back and forth between auto starting and manual starting, they need to understand the limitations of the programming. I have implored Midnite to change the "Dry force" parameter (which start the generator through the AIO manually) to a gen control parameter, with an "Off, Auto, On" option, which would override the battery charge setting in the "On" position, forcing a charge when this option is used. As far as solar charging goes when the inverter goes to standby if the battery SOC drops below the "Discharge To (%)" (which I usually set to at least 10% if not higher, again depending on the site specific circumstances), in my experience the AIO continues to use the solar to charge the batteries when available as long as the batteries haven't gone dark and shut the inverter off. The client will need to put the inverter from standby to "On' once the batteries have come back up to the minimum battery SOC setting. I also believe if the batteries haven't shut down, if the generator is started, the AIO will charge the batteries if the inverter is turned back on, although I don't swear to this. Howie Sun Catcher Howie Michaelson On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter gets > to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed loop > comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite AIO > setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with that > yet. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot Solark >> systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or otherwise >> low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then takes the >> battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would be a >> different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for >> vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming back. >> >> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really not >> clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure >> there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least >> you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to >> get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >> >> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 >> years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned >> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> >> >> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. In >> the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the background >> and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next day and >> turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend >> a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get >> the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging >> backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >> >> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake >> up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid >> battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like >> Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new >> Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send >> generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, >> sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >> >> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical bypass, >> and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator input (or >> smart load output on that breaker), I think the default function is for the >> relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load side of >> the breaker does not close the relay and turn the inverter back on >> automatically. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>> >>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to >>> bypass the inverter and power loads. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the >>> logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of >>> the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>> in my limited experience. >>> >>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >>> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >>> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >>> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>> battery manually is no easy task. >>> >>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an >>> OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter >>> ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that >>> the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup >>> sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, >>> that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the >>> inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I >>> don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even >>> see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the >>> other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both >>> immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >>> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >>> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >>> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>> >>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met >>> and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about >>> how this works? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 12 19:34:40 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 16:34:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <754D18F8-B9EE-4EA0-954D-748B0BEF98AE@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Mon May 12 21:02:19 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 15:02:19 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: <754D18F8-B9EE-4EA0-954D-748B0BEF98AE@gmail.com> References: <754D18F8-B9EE-4EA0-954D-748B0BEF98AE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Aloha All, My theory as to why All-In-Ones/Hybrids have ass-backwards gen controls...Their design roots are grid-tied. Off-grid was an afterthought and is still not fully understood by the new crop of manufacturers. Throw on top of that a little hubris (why should we look to the past for ideas?) and a relatively small off-grid market and we have this generator integration/dark start mess. Have you ever watched a Sol-Ark throttle back the generator because the solar array is cranking? Obviously the engineer who thought this one up has never lived off-grid and needed to charge a battery with a generator quickly. If "Gen Limit Power" under the Advanced tab is set to say 10kW and the array is putting out 6kW the inverter will throttle back the generator to 4kW. When that generator is on, go full throttle up to the battery's current limit, and get that noise maker shut off as soon as possible! Sol-Ark says it is like that to save fuel. They never had to listen to a generator run for 6 hours straight. But yet we continue to install them because the pros outway the cons. In 7 years we have not had a single Sol-Ark failure and they are quick to install and commission. I can't understand why Midnite went down the same poor generator integration path with their AIO, that is a head scratcher. Hopefully they will get it straightened out. I am sure it will work itself out but we have to go backwards for a bit and keep nagging the manufacturers. Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 1:35 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Howie > > It’s incredibly infuriating that the generator charging doesn’t happen if > you manually turn it on, regardless of the ags start/stop settings. > The lux power is like that. I can’t speak to sol ark. It has to be within > the preset ags start stop settings. > > And why after 30 yrs don’t we have the same parameters we used to? > IE manual on then to auto so it will auto shut off? > > Or quiet time > > Or an off/on/auto switch > > Or inverter support > > Adjustable warm up/cool down times > > Ags is already the most problematic thing, why make it worse? > > The part I really don’t understand is that these machines have some pretty > high powered computers in them and these features should be easy to add. > > On a related note, what generators are people using with the 8-12 kw > inverters? > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > On May 12, 2025, at 3:59 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > With the AIO, there are a few different basic settings that affect the > charging scenario for using a generator to charge the batteries: The Gen > start and stop relay (simple open and closed dry contact) and the battery > charging parameter (which determines what SOC the AIO will charge the > batteries to). It wasn't intuitive for me at first, but now that I'm used > to it, it's not complicated. > > - If I'm using the AIO to start the generator I set the battery > charging to start at whatever SOC the client wants to let the batteries > discharge to before the gen kicks in, typically somewhere between 25% and > 35% (depending on battery capacity, time of year, size of array, size of > loads, etc). There is an AGS off setting, which I might set at anywhere > from 45% to 85%, again depending on site factors. If the battery charging > parameter is set lower than the ending AGS setting, the generator will > continue to run and only carry the loads, but not charge the batteries - > obviously not a recommended scenario. > - If the client is manually starting and stopping the generator, then > I set the AGS start at as high as it will go (90%) and stop at 100%, but > disengage the remote genstart signal either at the generator or with an > interrupting switch in the control wires. Otherwise if the SOC is higher > the the gen start setting when the generator is manually turned on, the AIO > will only use the generator to carry the loads, and again, not charge the > batteries. There is a "force charge" setting which tells the AIO to charge > the batteries if AC is present regardless of the other settings, but I > believe this setting drops back to off when the charging stops, so the 90% > gen start setting is more reliable for manual gen starting. If the client > is bouncing back and forth between auto starting and manual starting, they > need to understand the limitations of the programming. I have implored > Midnite to change the "Dry force" parameter (which start the generator > through the AIO manually) to a gen control parameter, with an "Off, Auto, > On" option, which would override the battery charge setting in the "On" > position, forcing a charge when this option is used. > > As far as solar charging goes when the inverter goes to standby if the > battery SOC drops below the "Discharge To (%)" (which I usually set to at > least 10% if not higher, again depending on the site specific > circumstances), in my experience the AIO continues to use the solar to > charge the batteries when available as long as the batteries haven't gone > dark and shut the inverter off. The client will need to put the inverter > from standby to "On' once the batteries have come back up to the minimum > battery SOC setting. I also believe if the batteries haven't shut down, if > the generator is started, the AIO will charge the batteries if the inverter > is turned back on, although I don't swear to this. > > Howie > > Sun Catcher > Howie Michaelson > > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, >> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter gets >> to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed loop >> comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite AIO >> setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with that >> yet. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot Solark >>> systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or otherwise >>> low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then takes the >>> battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would be a >>> different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for >>> vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming back. >>> >>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really not >>> clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure >>> there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least >>> you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to >>> get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>> >>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 >>> years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned >>> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. In >>> the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the background >>> and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next day and >>> turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>> 707-884-1862 office >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend >>> a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get >>> the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging >>> backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >>> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >>> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>> >>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake >>> up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid >>> battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like >>> Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new >>> Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send >>> generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, >>> sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>> >>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical >>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the >>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default >>> function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage >>> on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the >>> inverter back on automatically. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>> >>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to >>>> bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the >>>> logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of >>>> the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>>> in my limited experience. >>>> >>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >>>> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >>>> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >>>> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>>> battery manually is no easy task. >>>> >>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an >>>> OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter >>>> ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that >>>> the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup >>>> sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, >>>> that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the >>>> inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I >>>> don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even >>>> see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the >>>> other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both >>>> immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >>>> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >>>> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >>>> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >>>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>> >>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met >>>> and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about >>>> how this works? >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue May 13 09:08:40 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 09:08:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Talking to Steve at Zonna about the problems with off grid equipment, he recommended the EG4 6000XP as a good off grid inverter. He said they are no longer made in China and are a very good product. Does anyone have experience with that unit? Thanks, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-05-12 13:11, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always > recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power > supply to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious > pain in my aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid > would have enough voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, > and eventually the customer could get the inverter back on too. No > special trip out. > > We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake > up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the > offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self > healing like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an > amazing amount of new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. > (Danger Will Robinson) > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send > generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For > retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. > > As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical > bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator > input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default > function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC > voltage on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and > turn the inverter back on automatically. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. > > Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to > bypass the inverter and power loads. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the > logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike > some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input > in an off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load > breaker, which isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable > circuit. This is problematic because it seemingly has a normally open > internal relay that closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, > that's how it seems to work in my limited experience. > > Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low > voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter > ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but > since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would > have to reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the > current battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS > fails to start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to > charge the battery manually is no easy task. > > Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an > OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the > inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON > somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And > since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, > non-intuitive, and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm > not sure if you can even turn the inverter ON when there is generator > input and the battery is too low. I don't think you can because the > relay is open and the inverter doesn't even see generator voltage when > it is in an OFF state. > > This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the > other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will > both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is > on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or > Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. > This is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition > is met, and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the > battery conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. > > The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met > and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong > about how this works? > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Tue May 13 09:28:01 2025 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 13:28:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid In-Reply-To: <57205600-f152-437c-8c36-56685b780a40@solarray.com> References: <79FF888F-4A00-4703-89B7-5DE99D35BC68@gmail.com> <2e5dc4712982c3944c1233057de05a2e@redwoodalliance.org> <57205600-f152-437c-8c36-56685b780a40@solarray.com> Message-ID: I agree 100% . Internet access and phone apps are great tools, however when they are a requirement for system operation or commissioning of a true off grid system they can be hinderance. I agree that the old SW inverters were the best in their day, but those of us that have earned our scar tissue might remember when installers were complaining about the lack of remote access. Pieter Huebner Off Grid Enterprises ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray Walters via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, May 12, 2025 11:58 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Ray Walters Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid I had many more failures with the VFX inverters, but at least we could rebuild them in the field. I think the old Trace stuff was the pinacle of reliability. I still have many SWs going well over 20 years. I had great luck with Magnum, until I got my first dud last year. Now they're out, but I'm installing a used one soon. I'm really at a loss as to what to deploy at this point. The AIOs are not the answer for offgrid, but I'm going to give a Midnite Rosie a try next, I think. I've been happy with Midnite's 600 v Charge Controllers, except don't use them on 24v! (48v only) I've tried some Victron stuff, which also requires a phone app and blue tooth to program. Manuals could definitely use more info, and tech support has been non existent. I use them for small projects (inverter < 2 kW) for now. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/12/2025 9:52 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: Was Outback woes. Hi Ray, I agree completely. Off grid reached its peak reliability and then declined. I thought it peaked with the VFX and Radian inverters, both of which could have stood some improvements. With the VFXR and the Radian A, The inverters seemed to be made more cheaply and more prone to problems. The rest is history. The reliance on cell phones and internet seems to me to be completely against the spirit of self reliant off grid systems. In the old days, I would set up a system and after a bit (or lot) of messing around would work for years. What is the best off grid inverter to use these days? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2025-05-11 14:37, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: I agree Michael, my call backs and free trips are way up with Li batteries and AIO. I just don't know what the system is doing or what to expect from the settings. Dark Start has now become a normal thing. My blood pressure is off the charts trying to talk to tech support with one bar of cell service. I have a DC power supply and inverter to restart the batts. I now own a PC laptop that's sole purpose is firmware updates. Guess what? Lead acid almost never needed a trip out to restart. The sun comes out, and it starts recharging. Lead acid is SELF HEALING. I just can't get LVD settings that keep Li bats out of dark start territory. All is fine until its not. Here's some experiences: 1) A Fortress firmware glitch that shut the whole system down when it reached 100% SOC. Result: rotten food in both freezers, customer confidence: they sold the property. Solution: upgrade Fortress Firmware. 2) Simpliphi and XW system works fine for 5 years, then a low battery issue during bad weather causes all 4 Simpliphi batteries to fry. Result: customer is on generator full time for 2 months. Solution: finally get replacement batteries and replace XW inverter with Magnum. 3) Homegrid batteries go into dark mode after solar shuts off for a couple of days. No battery voltage to turn on charge controller again. Result: 3 trips out to restart batteries, and hang out for hours to make sure the inverter will reconnect, and stay connected. Solution: still not sure, I raised the LVD and reconnect voltages, but the battery's no load draw from the BMS seems to be very significant. 4) Midnite AIO won't connect to phone app, which is the only way to program it. I turn on the inverter, and it just bricks. Result: It can't function out of the box without being setup with the phone app that doesn't always work. Solution: after 2-1/2 hours on a bad connection with Tech support, we finally get the inverter to reset and start working properly. I had to delete and reload the phone app 5 times before it would finally connect to the inverter. What's going to happen when you come back in 5 years with a different phone? I can share more with other companies I've tried including Rubix, and Blue Planet. The only Li battery I've not had trouble with was LiFe Blue (thanks Larry), but they're only for 12v systems. I am still installing lead acid for many of my customers, because we know what to expect. A lesser evil is better than the unknown that can be much worse. Retirement can't come too soon. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/11/2025 9:47 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: I wonder where all this is going? A plethora of Chinese ( I understand virtually everything electronic is manufactured there) AIOs and batteries, each with their own communication protocols, programing parameters, and individual peculiarities. I say this with all modesty and humility, that until a few years ago, it was a rare troubleshooting situation that I needed guidance from tech support for most anything. Now the extent of my prowess has been reduced to: "power cycle" it and if that doesn't work call tech support, and then be prepared for a frustrating, protracted, and costly in terms of my time, experience. I also wonder if it's sort of a "race to the bottom" (thanks for that one Bob-O) as far a quality goes. Discover discontinued it's AES battery which I think was the pinnacle, and replaced it with the Helios (which I have high hopes for). I'm hoping it's not a clone of all the others that are similar and I understand that the AES simply couldn't compete. Just my mind dump sans edit On Sun, May 11, 2025 at 8:17 AM Jay > wrote: Fortress and eg4 both use the same basic LUX made inverters. Sol ark is made by DEYE. On May 11, 2025, at 8:04 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > wrote: How does the Lux, Envy, and Sol-Ark compare to Midnite's AIO? I was all on board the Midnite train but I'm coming to the conclusion that they released it prematurely. Glitchy and Quirky. On Sun, May 11, 2025 at 7:40 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: One of the things I like about the LUX is that you can do programming with the built in display. The online monitoring is good as Maverick says. I also think it's way more accurate as well. The LUX 12kw is a solid unit. Jay On May 11, 2025, at 7:35 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: William, I have both the ENVY and Radian (and XW at my own home). The ENVY online experience is great. It may have replaced the Sol-Ark online monitoring as my favorite. (I have installed about 20 Sol-Arks and they also have tons of data and a great overall online experience). The data collected by ENVY is far greater than OpticsRE, many more parameters are saved. ENVY also has a working smart phone App that shows more data than the now offline / defunct OpticsRE app. OpticsRE does log enough data to understand that the system is functioning, but the additional AC data and way the information is presented gives ENVY far superior results. I do lean more towards the way OpticsRE allows editing parameters on the Devices section. That's likely because I am more familiar with the terminology. But, The ENVY Inverter has a built in display / touch screen that allows you to edit all of the values and make the system work without any internet / wireless / bluetooth connection. That is a great fall back. I am used to the MATE3s, but new customers have a crazy time with learning how it works and where values are able to be changed. The ENVY App bridges that gap! Now the dream part is that since Outback is now owned by the same people that also sell the EG4 18kPV (which is also made by Luxpower just like the ENVY), the best of both worlds could come about == more data collected and an available and a solid smart phone app for customers that want such a thing. The screenshot of the app is straight forward and the tabs at the bottom show charts, alarms and settings. The screenshot for desktop is very detailed and you can scroll down on the first page and get 3-4 screenfuls of data for just about anything you want to know. Let me know if you have a specific question, I can give you a comparison. Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On May 10, 2025, at 9:58 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Bought a VFXR3648 and two FXR3048s recently. They actually worked! Miracle. The client for which I am suggesting an Envy 12 instead of new FM100s is really attached to Optics. Now that Optics is unreliable it is easier to suggest an alternative. I'd like to hear about the Envy on-line interface. Is it ok? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sat, May 10, 2025 at 12:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: As a follow up. Has anyone purchased a new OB inverter or CC or mate. I mean specifically remote new outback company. Jay On May 10, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > wrote: Well, Outback's Optics RE is down yet again, also the back up site too and also the users forum... which had a massive database of current and past problem solving archives. What a clusterfuck this new company is. Wise wrenches should beware of patronizing this obvious sinking ship. Todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue May 13 10:02:02 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 07:02:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: <754D18F8-B9EE-4EA0-954D-748B0BEF98AE@gmail.com> References: <754D18F8-B9EE-4EA0-954D-748B0BEF98AE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3bb911f7d3d2428ae61e6dea6a3c07a0@sti.net> HONDA EU7000IS SUPER QUIET INVERTER GENERATOR Honda Power Equipment https://powerequipment.honda.com › generators › models The EU7000iS _offers great fuel efficiency_. Runs between 6.4 to 16 hours on a single tank, depending on the load. This makes it great for overnight power. $4,499.00 · 4.6(222) · Free delivery This is my baby Jay! Still have it's younger brother running for 15 years+. Propane connection by http://genconnexdirect.net/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-05-12 4:34 pm, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Howie > > It's incredibly infuriating that the generator charging doesn't happen > if you manually turn it on, regardless of the ags start/stop settings. > The lux power is like that. I can't speak to sol ark. It has to be > within the preset ags start stop settings. > > And why after 30 yrs don't we have the same parameters we used to? > IE manual on then to auto so it will auto shut off? > > Or quiet time > > Or an off/on/auto switch > > Or inverter support > > Adjustable warm up/cool down times > > Ags is already the most problematic thing, why make it worse? > > The part I really don't understand is that these machines have some > pretty high powered computers in them and these features should be easy > to add. > > On a related note, what generators are people using with the 8-12 kw > inverters? > > Jay > >> On May 12, 2025, at 3:59 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches >> wrote: > > With the AIO, there are a few different basic settings that affect the > charging scenario for using a generator to charge the batteries: The > Gen start and stop relay (simple open and closed dry contact) and the > battery charging parameter (which determines what SOC the AIO will > charge the batteries to). It wasn't intuitive for me at first, but now > that I'm used to it, it's not complicated. > > * If I'm using the AIO to start the generator I set the battery > charging to start at whatever SOC the client wants to let the batteries > discharge to before the gen kicks in, typically somewhere between 25% > and 35% (depending on battery capacity, time of year, size of array, > size of loads, etc). There is an AGS off setting, which I might set at > anywhere from 45% to 85%, again depending on site factors. If the > battery charging parameter is set lower than the ending AGS setting, > the generator will continue to run and only carry the loads, but not > charge the batteries - obviously not a recommended scenario. > * If the client is manually starting and stopping the generator, then I > set the AGS start at as high as it will go (90%) and stop at 100%, but > disengage the remote genstart signal either at the generator or with an > interrupting switch in the control wires. Otherwise if the SOC is > higher the the gen start setting when the generator is manually turned > on, the AIO will only use the generator to carry the loads, and again, > not charge the batteries. There is a "force charge" setting which > tells the AIO to charge the batteries if AC is present regardless of > the other settings, but I believe this setting drops back to off when > the charging stops, so the 90% gen start setting is more reliable for > manual gen starting. If the client is bouncing back and forth between > auto starting and manual starting, they need to understand the > limitations of the programming. I have implored Midnite to change the > "Dry force" parameter (which start the generator through the AIO > manually) to a gen control parameter, with an "Off, Auto, On" option, > which would override the battery charge setting in the "On" position, > forcing a charge when this option is used. > > As far as solar charging goes when the inverter goes to standby if the > battery SOC drops below the "Discharge To (%)" (which I usually set to > at least 10% if not higher, again depending on the site specific > circumstances), in my experience the AIO continues to use the solar to > charge the batteries when available as long as the batteries haven't > gone dark and shut the inverter off. The client will need to put the > inverter from standby to "On' once the batteries have come back up to > the minimum battery SOC setting. I also believe if the batteries > haven't shut down, if the generator is started, the AIO will charge the > batteries if the inverter is turned back on, although I don't swear to > this. > > Howie > > Sun Catcher > > Howie Michaelson > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Jason, > Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter > gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have > closed loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my > first Midnite AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it > will work with that yet. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot Solark > systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or > otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS > then takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. > This would be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite > full time, but for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut > down, not coming back. > > Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really not > clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure > there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At > least you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't > have to get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. > > BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 > years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned > Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its > job..... > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: We have > been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. In the > case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the background > and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next day and > turn itself back on and provide AC power output. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com [3] > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [4] > > On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always > recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power > supply to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious > pain in my aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid > would have enough voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, > and eventually the customer could get the inverter back on too. No > special trip out. > > We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake > up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the > offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self > healing like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an > amazing amount of new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. > (Danger Will Robinson) > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send > generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For > retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. > > As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical > bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator > input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default > function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC > voltage on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and > turn the inverter back on automatically. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. > > Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to > bypass the inverter and power loads. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the > logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike > some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input > in an off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load > breaker, which isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable > circuit. This is problematic because it seemingly has a normally open > internal relay that closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, > that's how it seems to work in my limited experience. > > Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low > voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter > ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but > since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would > have to reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the > current battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS > fails to start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to > charge the battery manually is no easy task. > > Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an > OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the > inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON > somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And > since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, > non-intuitive, and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm > not sure if you can even turn the inverter ON when there is generator > input and the battery is too low. I don't think you can because the > relay is open and the inverter doesn't even see generator voltage when > it is in an OFF state. > > This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the > other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will > both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is > on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or > Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. > This is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition > is met, and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the > battery conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. > > The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met > and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong > about how this works? > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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Name: 6fdf6458.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2640 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 13 10:20:26 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 07:20:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C8EAD1-785F-4C01-B08F-E862ABCFB476@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue May 13 10:31:04 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 08:31:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: <42C8EAD1-785F-4C01-B08F-E862ABCFB476@gmail.com> References: <42C8EAD1-785F-4C01-B08F-E862ABCFB476@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Jay, I am using Kohler 14 RCAs in Colorado. It has the off-grid warranty 18-month/1000 hr. I have seen good results, I probably have 60-70 out there now. If you can make it through the 6 month mark, its probably going to be pretty good machine (control and /or sensor failures). I have had random issues, they aren't perfect, but its the best I've come across for an autostart machine that works well with elevation derate here. Very simple to troubleshoot, stepper motor, controller, not much else. Btw, Kohler sold its residential line to Rehlko recently so who knows! On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 8:21 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I’ve installed one. It works and simple > Like the other AIOs. > It has a different firmware/display than the 8,12 kw units which is a bit > frustrating. > > The main drawback with the 6 is it’s only 3kw per leg. It doesn’t like > being too out of balance either. Tare loss is a bit high and the fans seems > to run a lot but better cooler than hotter. > But it’s less than 1/2 the price of the 8kw. It’s about $1600. > If you just bought it as a CC it’d be a great deal. > > As to it not being made in China I think is nothing more than simantics. > It might now be assembled in Texas but the parts are all made in China. > So draw your own conclusions > > > > On May 13, 2025, at 6:10 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Talking to Steve at Zonna about the problems with off grid equipment, he > recommended the EG4 6000XP as a good off grid inverter. He said they are no > longer made in China and are a very good product. Does anyone have > experience with that unit? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > --- > > > > On 2025-05-12 13:11, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend a > hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get the > battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging > backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough > voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the > customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. > > We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake up > the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid > battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like > Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new > Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send > generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, > sometimes there can be space limitations, however. > > As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical bypass, > and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator input (or > smart load output on that breaker), I think the default function is for the > relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load side of > the breaker does not close the relay and turn the inverter back on > automatically. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. > > Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to > bypass the inverter and power loads. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the > logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of > the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an > off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which > isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is > problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that > closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work > in my limited experience. > > Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low voltage > cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON for the > generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since the > battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to reprogram > the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current battery > state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to start the > generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the battery > manually is no easy task. > > Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an OFF > state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter ON > automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that the > generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup > sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, > that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the > inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I > don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even > see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. > This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the > other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both > immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, > regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator > input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is > because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and > they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery > conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. > > The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met and > opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about how > this works? > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue May 13 10:50:06 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 07:50:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DBC0A56-B797-4490-93FB-EAB2EAD4D09C@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue May 13 11:53:41 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 08:53:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: <4DBC0A56-B797-4490-93FB-EAB2EAD4D09C@gmail.com> References: <4DBC0A56-B797-4490-93FB-EAB2EAD4D09C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've had good luck with the Victron/Discover pairing for small off-gridsystems. The drawbacks are: No tech support (as far as I know), requires stacking for 120/240 and more than 3kw, no conduit boxes on MPPTs, lots of BOS components, and lots of comms and a familiarity with the various comms cables. Also, I haven't come up with a reliable solution for installing the touch screen at distance from the power system. That is system in a power shed remote from the dwelling. I've had zero issues with this pairing and it will probably be my go to for awhile. We're installing our first AIO offgrid in a few days, as I purchased the equipment for the project early last fall when they were first released, not realizing their unsuitability for off-grid. It's weird, I would have expected better from Midnite and wonder just WHO engineered the unit? Generators: Simple diesel genset 1st choice always or liquid cooled/low RPM LPG for 20kw up, Honda eu7000is w/ LPG conversion for smaller requirements On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 7:50 AM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > After having many many failures very prematurely with the Kohler 14 and > 20s I've switched to the Cummins-Onan air cooled two wires start units and > they have been flawless so far. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On May 13, 2025, at 7:33 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hello Jay, > > I am using Kohler 14 RCAs in Colorado. It has the off-grid warranty > 18-month/1000 hr. I have seen good results, I probably have 60-70 out > there now. If you can make it through the 6 month mark, its probably going > to be pretty good machine (control and /or sensor failures). I have had > random issues, they aren't perfect, but its the best I've come across for > an autostart machine that works well with elevation derate here. Very > simple to troubleshoot, stepper motor, controller, not much else. Btw, > Kohler sold its residential line to Rehlko recently so who knows! > > > > On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 8:21 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I’ve installed one. It works and simple >> Like the other AIOs. >> It has a different firmware/display than the 8,12 kw units which is a bit >> frustrating. >> >> The main drawback with the 6 is it’s only 3kw per leg. It doesn’t like >> being too out of balance either. Tare loss is a bit high and the fans seems >> to run a lot but better cooler than hotter. >> But it’s less than 1/2 the price of the 8kw. It’s about $1600. >> If you just bought it as a CC it’d be a great deal. >> >> As to it not being made in China I think is nothing more than simantics. >> It might now be assembled in Texas but the parts are all made in China. >> So draw your own conclusions >> >> >> >> On May 13, 2025, at 6:10 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Talking to Steve at Zonna about the problems with off grid equipment, he >> recommended the EG4 6000XP as a good off grid inverter. He said they are no >> longer made in China and are a very good product. Does anyone have >> experience with that unit? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> >> *Drake Chamberlin* >> >> *Athens Electric LLC* >> >> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* >> >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* >> --- >> >> >> >> On 2025-05-12 13:11, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend >> a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get >> the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging >> backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >> >> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake >> up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid >> battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like >> Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new >> Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send >> generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, >> sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >> >> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical bypass, >> and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator input (or >> smart load output on that breaker), I think the default function is for the >> relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load side of >> the breaker does not close the relay and turn the inverter back on >> automatically. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >> >> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to >> bypass the inverter and power loads. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the >> logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of >> the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >> in my limited experience. >> >> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >> battery manually is no easy task. >> >> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an >> OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter >> ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that >> the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup >> sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, >> that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the >> inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I >> don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even >> see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the >> other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both >> immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >> >> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met >> and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about >> how this works? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue May 13 12:15:11 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 09:15:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: <4DBC0A56-B797-4490-93FB-EAB2EAD4D09C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <239a248f95a03d971167d0e6f09e43fe@sti.net> Hi Michael, When you install the A10, let us know a comparison to the Midnite Rosie. I would like that as I am in the same boat as you with Schneider getting out of offgrid. Schneider Home is even worse than the Power wall. No gen input and at least the Powerwall builds the cells here in Northern Nevada. Still no Gen input... I forgot to add that I had to change a spark plug on the Honda once. It did not need it though. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-05-13 8:53 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I've had good luck with the Victron/Discover pairing for small > off-gridsystems. The drawbacks are: No tech support (as far as I know), > requires stacking for 120/240 and more than 3kw, no conduit boxes on > MPPTs, lots of BOS components, and lots of comms and a familiarity with > the various comms cables. Also, I haven't come up with a reliable > solution for installing the touch screen at distance from the power > system. That is system in a power shed remote from the dwelling. > > I've had zero issues with this pairing and it will probably be my go to > for awhile. We're installing our first AIO offgrid in a few days, as I > purchased the equipment for the project early last fall when they were > first released, not realizing their unsuitability for off-grid. > > It's weird, I would have expected better from Midnite and wonder just > WHO engineered the unit? > > Generators: Simple diesel genset 1st choice always or liquid cooled/low > RPM LPG for 20kw up, Honda eu7000is w/ LPG conversion for smaller > requirements > > On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 7:50 AM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > After having many many failures very prematurely with the Kohler 14 and > 20s I've switched to the Cummins-Onan air cooled two wires start units > and they have been flawless so far. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com [3] > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [4] > > On May 13, 2025, at 7:33 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hello Jay, > > I am using Kohler 14 RCAs in Colorado. It has the off-grid warranty > 18-month/1000 hr. I have seen good results, I probably have 60-70 out > there now. If you can make it through the 6 month mark, its probably > going to be pretty good machine (control and /or sensor failures). I > have had random issues, they aren't perfect, but its the best I've come > across for an autostart machine that works well with elevation derate > here. Very simple to troubleshoot, stepper motor, controller, not much > else. Btw, Kohler sold its residential line to Rehlko recently so who > knows! > > On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 8:21 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I've installed one. It works and simple > Like the other AIOs. > It has a different firmware/display than the 8,12 kw units which is a > bit frustrating. > > The main drawback with the 6 is it's only 3kw per leg. It doesn't like > being too out of balance either. Tare loss is a bit high and the fans > seems to run a lot but better cooler than hotter. > But it's less than 1/2 the price of the 8kw. It's about $1600. > If you just bought it as a CC it'd be a great deal. > > As to it not being made in China I think is nothing more than > simantics. > It might now be assembled in Texas but the parts are all made in China. > So draw your own conclusions > > On May 13, 2025, at 6:10 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Talking to Steve at Zonna about the problems with off grid equipment, > he recommended the EG4 6000XP as a good off grid inverter. He said they > are no longer made in China and are a very good product. Does anyone > have experience with that unit? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2025-05-12 13:11, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always > recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power > supply to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious > pain in my aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid > would have enough voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, > and eventually the customer could get the inverter back on too. No > special trip out. > > We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake > up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the > offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self > healing like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an > amazing amount of new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. > (Danger Will Robinson) > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send > generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For > retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. > > As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical > bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator > input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default > function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC > voltage on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and > turn the inverter back on automatically. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. > > Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to > bypass the inverter and power loads. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the > logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike > some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input > in an off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load > breaker, which isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable > circuit. This is problematic because it seemingly has a normally open > internal relay that closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, > that's how it seems to work in my limited experience. > > Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low > voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter > ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but > since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would > have to reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the > current battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS > fails to start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to > charge the battery manually is no easy task. > > Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an > OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the > inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON > somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And > since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, > non-intuitive, and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm > not sure if you can even turn the inverter ON when there is generator > input and the battery is too low. I don't think you can because the > relay is open and the inverter doesn't even see generator voltage when > it is in an OFF state. > > This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the > other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will > both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is > on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or > Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. > This is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition > is met, and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the > battery conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. > > The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met > and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong > about how this works? > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] http://www.mdelectricsolar.com [4] http://www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue May 13 12:58:29 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 10:58:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: <4DBC0A56-B797-4490-93FB-EAB2EAD4D09C@gmail.com> References: <4DBC0A56-B797-4490-93FB-EAB2EAD4D09C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think a big part of the generator selection is who is around to service the machine. If there is a good generator technician around a certain brand, that may be the way to go. I don't like Generac at all. There is no real presence on Cummins/Onan here and Kohler has worked fine for me and Im familiar with it. On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 8:50 AM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > After having many many failures very prematurely with the Kohler 14 and > 20s I've switched to the Cummins-Onan air cooled two wires start units and > they have been flawless so far. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On May 13, 2025, at 7:33 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hello Jay, > > I am using Kohler 14 RCAs in Colorado. It has the off-grid warranty > 18-month/1000 hr. I have seen good results, I probably have 60-70 out > there now. If you can make it through the 6 month mark, its probably going > to be pretty good machine (control and /or sensor failures). I have had > random issues, they aren't perfect, but its the best I've come across for > an autostart machine that works well with elevation derate here. Very > simple to troubleshoot, stepper motor, controller, not much else. Btw, > Kohler sold its residential line to Rehlko recently so who knows! > > > > On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 8:21 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I’ve installed one. It works and simple >> Like the other AIOs. >> It has a different firmware/display than the 8,12 kw units which is a bit >> frustrating. >> >> The main drawback with the 6 is it’s only 3kw per leg. It doesn’t like >> being too out of balance either. Tare loss is a bit high and the fans seems >> to run a lot but better cooler than hotter. >> But it’s less than 1/2 the price of the 8kw. It’s about $1600. >> If you just bought it as a CC it’d be a great deal. >> >> As to it not being made in China I think is nothing more than simantics. >> It might now be assembled in Texas but the parts are all made in China. >> So draw your own conclusions >> >> >> >> On May 13, 2025, at 6:10 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Talking to Steve at Zonna about the problems with off grid equipment, he >> recommended the EG4 6000XP as a good off grid inverter. He said they are no >> longer made in China and are a very good product. Does anyone have >> experience with that unit? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> >> *Drake Chamberlin* >> >> *Athens Electric LLC* >> >> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* >> >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* >> --- >> >> >> >> On 2025-05-12 13:11, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend >> a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get >> the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging >> backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >> >> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake >> up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid >> battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like >> Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new >> Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send >> generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, >> sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >> >> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical bypass, >> and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator input (or >> smart load output on that breaker), I think the default function is for the >> relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load side of >> the breaker does not close the relay and turn the inverter back on >> automatically. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >> >> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to >> bypass the inverter and power loads. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the >> logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of >> the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >> in my limited experience. >> >> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >> battery manually is no easy task. >> >> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an >> OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter >> ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that >> the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup >> sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, >> that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the >> inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I >> don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even >> see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the >> other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both >> immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >> >> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met >> and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about >> how this works? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Tue May 13 13:08:22 2025 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 17:08:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Re: Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: <4DBC0A56-B797-4490-93FB-EAB2EAD4D09C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I just installed a Victron/Discover system at my house. The install went well, although, like Michael said, it needs some customization to work with conduit. Tech support is done through your dealer. I bought through Kienan Maxfield (he's on the list), and his support was excellent. The comms does take some work to set up with three apps between the two vendors, but once it's set up, it's worked without an issue. You do need to hardwire the display, which prevents installing it at a significant distance, but you can do anything on the display in the app, which was a huge improvement from my Outback VFX system. Thanks, Will ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2025 11:53 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Michael Morningstar Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. I've had good luck with the Victron/Discover pairing for small off-gridsystems. The drawbacks are: No tech support (as far as I know), requires stacking for 120/240 and more than 3kw, no conduit boxes on MPPTs, lots of BOS components, and lots of comms and a familiarity with the various comms cables. Also, I haven't come up with a reliable solution for installing the touch screen at distance from the power system. That is system in a power shed remote from the dwelling. I've had zero issues with this pairing and it will probably be my go to for awhile. We're installing our first AIO offgrid in a few days, as I purchased the equipment for the project early last fall when they were first released, not realizing their unsuitability for off-grid. It's weird, I would have expected better from Midnite and wonder just WHO engineered the unit? Generators: Simple diesel genset 1st choice always or liquid cooled/low RPM LPG for 20kw up, Honda eu7000is w/ LPG conversion for smaller requirements On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 7:50 AM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches > wrote: After having many many failures very prematurely with the Kohler 14 and 20s I've switched to the Cummins-Onan air cooled two wires start units and they have been flawless so far. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar On May 13, 2025, at 7:33 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Hello Jay, I am using Kohler 14 RCAs in Colorado. It has the off-grid warranty 18-month/1000 hr. I have seen good results, I probably have 60-70 out there now. If you can make it through the 6 month mark, its probably going to be pretty good machine (control and /or sensor failures). I have had random issues, they aren't perfect, but its the best I've come across for an autostart machine that works well with elevation derate here. Very simple to troubleshoot, stepper motor, controller, not much else. Btw, Kohler sold its residential line to Rehlko recently so who knows! On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 8:21 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: I’ve installed one. It works and simple Like the other AIOs. It has a different firmware/display than the 8,12 kw units which is a bit frustrating. The main drawback with the 6 is it’s only 3kw per leg. It doesn’t like being too out of balance either. Tare loss is a bit high and the fans seems to run a lot but better cooler than hotter. But it’s less than 1/2 the price of the 8kw. It’s about $1600. If you just bought it as a CC it’d be a great deal. As to it not being made in China I think is nothing more than simantics. It might now be assembled in Texas but the parts are all made in China. So draw your own conclusions On May 13, 2025, at 6:10 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Talking to Steve at Zonna about the problems with off grid equipment, he recommended the EG4 6000XP as a good off grid inverter. He said they are no longer made in China and are a very good product. Does anyone have experience with that unit? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2025-05-12 13:11, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the inverter back on automatically. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work in my limited experience. Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the battery manually is no easy task. Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about how this works? Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue May 13 13:10:52 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 11:10:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: <4DBC0A56-B797-4490-93FB-EAB2EAD4D09C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I really like Victron, big and small. They are much harder to install and more technical to program, but there is now an ePanel for the 3kW. The hard part with Victron is arc fault, rapid shutdown etc. If you want 120/240 then you need to stack or use an autoformer. A small company in Utah makes a great conduit box for the Victron charge controllers. Check out Green Go Solar Distribution, they can also support Victron really well. On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 10:58 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > I think a big part of the generator selection is who is around to service > the machine. If there is a good generator technician around a certain > brand, that may be the way to go. I don't like Generac at all. There is > no real presence on Cummins/Onan here and Kohler has worked fine for me and > Im familiar with it. > > On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 8:50 AM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> After having many many failures very prematurely with the Kohler 14 and >> 20s I've switched to the Cummins-Onan air cooled two wires start units and >> they have been flawless so far. >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> On May 13, 2025, at 7:33 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Hello Jay, >> >> I am using Kohler 14 RCAs in Colorado. It has the off-grid warranty >> 18-month/1000 hr. I have seen good results, I probably have 60-70 out >> there now. If you can make it through the 6 month mark, its probably going >> to be pretty good machine (control and /or sensor failures). I have had >> random issues, they aren't perfect, but its the best I've come across for >> an autostart machine that works well with elevation derate here. Very >> simple to troubleshoot, stepper motor, controller, not much else. Btw, >> Kohler sold its residential line to Rehlko recently so who knows! >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 8:21 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I’ve installed one. It works and simple >>> Like the other AIOs. >>> It has a different firmware/display than the 8,12 kw units which is a >>> bit frustrating. >>> >>> The main drawback with the 6 is it’s only 3kw per leg. It doesn’t like >>> being too out of balance either. Tare loss is a bit high and the fans seems >>> to run a lot but better cooler than hotter. >>> But it’s less than 1/2 the price of the 8kw. It’s about $1600. >>> If you just bought it as a CC it’d be a great deal. >>> >>> As to it not being made in China I think is nothing more than simantics. >>> It might now be assembled in Texas but the parts are all made in China. >>> So draw your own conclusions >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 13, 2025, at 6:10 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> Talking to Steve at Zonna about the problems with off grid equipment, he >>> recommended the EG4 6000XP as a good off grid inverter. He said they are no >>> longer made in China and are a very good product. Does anyone have >>> experience with that unit? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> >>> *Drake Chamberlin* >>> >>> *Athens Electric LLC* >>> >>> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* >>> >>> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* >>> --- >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2025-05-12 13:11, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend >>> a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get >>> the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging >>> backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >>> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >>> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>> >>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake >>> up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid >>> battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like >>> Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new >>> Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send >>> generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, >>> sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>> >>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical >>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the >>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default >>> function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage >>> on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the >>> inverter back on automatically. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>> >>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to >>> bypass the inverter and power loads. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the >>> logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of >>> the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>> in my limited experience. >>> >>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >>> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >>> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >>> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>> battery manually is no easy task. >>> >>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an >>> OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter >>> ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that >>> the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup >>> sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, >>> that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the >>> inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I >>> don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even >>> see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the >>> other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both >>> immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >>> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >>> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >>> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>> >>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met >>> and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about >>> how this works? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cheezemanrich at gmail.com Tue May 13 16:47:54 2025 From: cheezemanrich at gmail.com (Richard Scott) Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 13:47:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Re: Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: <4DBC0A56-B797-4490-93FB-EAB2EAD4D09C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Victron has a wireless display solution which uses an old dedicated android phone or tablet via WiFi and it has worked well for me so far. https://professional.victronenergy.com/news/detail/300/ Rich On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 10:08 AM White, Will via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I just installed a Victron/Discover system at my house. The install went > well, although, like Michael said, it needs some customization to work with > conduit. > > Tech support is done through your dealer. I bought through Kienan Maxfield > (he's on the list), and his support was excellent. > > The comms does take some work to set up with three apps between the two > vendors, but once it's set up, it's worked without an issue. > > You do need to hardwire the display, which prevents installing it at a > significant distance, but you can do anything on the display in the > app, which was a huge improvement from my Outback VFX system. > > Thanks, > Will > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 13, 2025 11:53 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Michael Morningstar > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator > Functionality > > > *CAUTION:* This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know > the content is safe. > > > I've had good luck with the Victron/Discover pairing for small > off-gridsystems. The drawbacks are: No tech support (as far as I know), > requires stacking for 120/240 and more than 3kw, no conduit boxes on MPPTs, > lots of BOS components, and lots of comms and a familiarity with the > various comms cables. Also, I haven't come up with a reliable solution for > installing the touch screen at distance from the power system. That is > system in a power shed remote from the dwelling. > > I've had zero issues with this pairing and it will probably be my go to > for awhile. We're installing our first AIO offgrid in a few days, as I > purchased the equipment for the project early last fall when they were > first released, not realizing their unsuitability for off-grid. > > It's weird, I would have expected better from Midnite and wonder just WHO > engineered the unit? > > Generators: Simple diesel genset 1st choice always or liquid cooled/low > RPM LPG for 20kw up, Honda eu7000is w/ LPG conversion for smaller > requirements > > > On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 7:50 AM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > After having many many failures very prematurely with the Kohler 14 and > 20s I've switched to the Cummins-Onan air cooled two wires start units and > they have been flawless so far. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > On May 13, 2025, at 7:33 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hello Jay, > > I am using Kohler 14 RCAs in Colorado. It has the off-grid warranty > 18-month/1000 hr. I have seen good results, I probably have 60-70 out > there now. If you can make it through the 6 month mark, its probably going > to be pretty good machine (control and /or sensor failures). I have had > random issues, they aren't perfect, but its the best I've come across for > an autostart machine that works well with elevation derate here. Very > simple to troubleshoot, stepper motor, controller, not much else. Btw, > Kohler sold its residential line to Rehlko recently so who knows! > > > > On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 8:21 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I’ve installed one. It works and simple > Like the other AIOs. > It has a different firmware/display than the 8,12 kw units which is a bit > frustrating. > > The main drawback with the 6 is it’s only 3kw per leg. It doesn’t like > being too out of balance either. Tare loss is a bit high and the fans seems > to run a lot but better cooler than hotter. > But it’s less than 1/2 the price of the 8kw. It’s about $1600. > If you just bought it as a CC it’d be a great deal. > > As to it not being made in China I think is nothing more than simantics. > It might now be assembled in Texas but the parts are all made in China. > So draw your own conclusions > > > > On May 13, 2025, at 6:10 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Talking to Steve at Zonna about the problems with off grid equipment, he > recommended the EG4 6000XP as a good off grid inverter. He said they are no > longer made in China and are a very good product. Does anyone have > experience with that unit? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > --- > > > > On 2025-05-12 13:11, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend a > hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get the > battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging > backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough > voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the > customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. > > We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake up > the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid > battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like > Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new > Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send > generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, > sometimes there can be space limitations, however. > > As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical bypass, > and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator input (or > smart load output on that breaker), I think the default function is for the > relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load side of > the breaker does not close the relay and turn the inverter back on > automatically. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. > > Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to > bypass the inverter and power loads. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the > logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of > the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an > off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which > isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is > problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that > closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work > in my limited experience. > > Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low voltage > cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON for the > generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since the > battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to reprogram > the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current battery > state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to start the > generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the battery > manually is no easy task. > > Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an OFF > state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter ON > automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that the > generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup > sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, > that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the > inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I > don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even > see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. > This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the > other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both > immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, > regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator > input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is > because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and > they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery > conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. > > The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met and > opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about how > this works? > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > ------------------------------ > > Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If > you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying > to the sender and delete this message. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue May 13 17:37:52 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 21:37:52 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: <4DBC0A56-B797-4490-93FB-EAB2EAD4D09C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have installed several Wildcat Power gensets now & pretty Happy with the quality. Really solid machines. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 16:58:29 +0000 Size: 65325 URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed May 14 07:15:25 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 07:15:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chinese inverters and spying detected In-Reply-To: References: <4DBC0A56-B797-4490-93FB-EAB2EAD4D09C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8b2fac4c-fd0a-4442-90fc-8467782ecf52@entech-engineering.com> *Maybe this explains why they are so willing to develop US inverter technology at costs far below United States companies' costs. https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/climate-energy/ghost-machine-rogue-communication-devices-found-chinese-inverters-2025-05-14/* Ghost in the machine? Rogue communication devices found in Chinese inverters Ghost in the machine? Rogue communication devices found in Chinese inver... U.S. energy officials are reassessing the risk posed by Chinese-made devices that play a critical role in renewa... -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed May 14 09:55:42 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 09:55:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able to charge the battery without user intervention. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter gets > to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed loop > comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite AIO > setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with that > yet. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot Solark >> systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or otherwise >> low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then takes the >> battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would be a >> different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for >> vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming back. >> >> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really not >> clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure >> there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least >> you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to >> get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >> >> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 >> years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned >> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> >> >> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. In >> the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the background >> and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next day and >> turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend >> a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get >> the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging >> backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >> >> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake >> up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid >> battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like >> Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new >> Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send >> generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, >> sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >> >> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical bypass, >> and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator input (or >> smart load output on that breaker), I think the default function is for the >> relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load side of >> the breaker does not close the relay and turn the inverter back on >> automatically. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>> >>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to >>> bypass the inverter and power loads. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the >>> logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of >>> the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>> in my limited experience. >>> >>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >>> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >>> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >>> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>> battery manually is no easy task. >>> >>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an >>> OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter >>> ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that >>> the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup >>> sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, >>> that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the >>> inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I >>> don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even >>> see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the >>> other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both >>> immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >>> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >>> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >>> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>> >>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met >>> and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about >>> how this works? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed May 14 11:09:20 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 11:09:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for this information. Regarding the statement, "You can fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is available at all times, but you will lose the AGS..." I don't think MNS tech support knows this. I'm pretty sure Rick told me no, and I know that Ronald unequivocally told me it was not allowed. What if the generator was connected to the grid input, but you still programmed the generator Smart Load output for a generator, would the AGS work in that case? Or if there is "Grid" voltage when the generator starts, would that cause the AGS to disengage and then the process would repeat itself in a loop? Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, May 14, 2025, 10:57 AM William Bryce wrote: > Everyone, Please forgive MNS for not promptly responding to the questions. > > Midnite Solar does not currently have an official poster for the > Wrenches List. Per the rules of the list, MNS is working to get a new Rep > to work with the installers as we always have. > > To address the questions that were fielded: > > The solar array will continue to power the system and dark start the > inverter if needed. > > > > If you use the machine you can test. Just turn off ALL the Power, > including the DC in from the battery. The screen will be dark and when you > turn on the PV input the machine will go into standby. > > > > If the machine shuts down due to a LVCO then it will auto restart (Via PV > input) UNLESS the "Min Initiation Startup (off Grid)" setting is not > reached. It will charge the battery until that setting is reached then turn > on the inverter. > > > If the Shutdown was because of a PV Insulation *Fault* or some other > critical ESS fault it will not restart until that issue is corrected. You > can blame that on the UL code writers as it is REQUIRED to get the UL > certifications. > > > > We also do full generator passthrough just like all other AIO's. And yes > as pointed out several times on the forum the relay for the generator is > not closed, as the inverter qualifies the generator before it closes. The > reason is that we can use the PV input and the generator at the same time. > But, it is monitored so you do not blow us the generator if the PV exceeds > the Gen input and the load or charging drops. Is this perfect? No, it needs > some work. The current AGS is basic and needs work. > > > You can fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is > available at all times, but you will lose the AGS. > > > > > Everyone at MNS is taking notes of all the issues with the Current AIO's > (all brands including our AIO), and the state of China made / China > supported inverters. > > > MNS will be looking to reset the market soon with a New, US Made, > Designed, and supported AIO (not just assembled from China parts like some > others with the same firmware). Using proven SiC Fet technology (Rosie > inverter technology). With a full set of controls for LA batteries, and > Generator, just like in the old days. Touch Screen programming, and self > hosted web server remote accesses and control, not data sent to the cloud. > If you worry about support, and security, then this inverter will address > these needs. All the firmware is written in house, PCB boards populated > inhouse, and components origins verified. > > > > We will not say more because of MNS bad reputation of *announcing and not > delivering*, so in the next 6 months, we will have something great to > offer. We are going back to our Roots (Trace, Outback, and Magnum, can > all be linked back to this team). > > > Thanks > > > On behalf of Midnite Solar > > On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out of >> fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. >> >> The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with a >> NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator >> input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able >> to charge the battery without user intervention. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Jason, >>> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter >>> gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed >>> loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite >>> AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with >>> that yet. >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot Solark >>>> systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or otherwise >>>> low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then takes the >>>> battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would be a >>>> different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for >>>> vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming back. >>>> >>>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really not >>>> clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure >>>> there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least >>>> you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to >>>> get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>>> >>>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 >>>> years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned >>>> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. >>>> In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the >>>> background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next >>>> day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>>> >>>> Michael D Nelson >>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always >>>> recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply >>>> to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my >>>> aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >>>> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >>>> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>>> >>>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake >>>> up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid >>>> battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like >>>> Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new >>>> Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send >>>> generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, >>>> sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>>> >>>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical >>>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the >>>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default >>>> function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage >>>> on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the >>>> inverter back on automatically. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>>> >>>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen >>>>> to bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the >>>>> logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of >>>>> the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>>>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>>>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>>>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>>>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>>>> in my limited experience. >>>>> >>>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >>>>> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >>>>> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >>>>> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>>>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>>>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>>>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>>>> battery manually is no easy task. >>>>> >>>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an >>>>> OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter >>>>> ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that >>>>> the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup >>>>> sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, >>>>> that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the >>>>> inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I >>>>> don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even >>>>> see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the >>>>> other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both >>>>> immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >>>>> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >>>>> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >>>>> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >>>>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>>>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>>> >>>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met >>>>> and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about >>>>> how this works? >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Wed May 14 11:28:03 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 11:28:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When using the AC input the substitute to use the AGS is to use an external AGS Start relay. There are many customers using big generators through the 100 Amp input with no issues. There is a request to modify the AGS to work with the 100 amp AC in. On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:09 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thank you for this information. Regarding the statement, "You can fully > use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is available at all > times, but you will lose the AGS..." > > I don't think MNS tech support knows this. I'm pretty sure Rick told me > no, and I know that Ronald unequivocally told me it was not allowed. > > What if the generator was connected to the grid input, but you still > programmed the generator Smart Load output for a generator, would the AGS > work in that case? Or if there is "Grid" voltage when the generator starts, > would that cause the AGS to disengage and then the process would repeat > itself in a loop? > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Wed, May 14, 2025, 10:57 AM William Bryce < > wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: > >> Everyone, Please forgive MNS for not promptly responding to the >> questions. >> >> Midnite Solar does not currently have an official poster for the >> Wrenches List. Per the rules of the list, MNS is working to get a new Rep >> to work with the installers as we always have. >> >> To address the questions that were fielded: >> >> The solar array will continue to power the system and dark start the >> inverter if needed. >> >> >> >> If you use the machine you can test. Just turn off ALL the Power, >> including the DC in from the battery. The screen will be dark and when you >> turn on the PV input the machine will go into standby. >> >> >> >> If the machine shuts down due to a LVCO then it will auto restart (Via PV >> input) UNLESS the "Min Initiation Startup (off Grid)" setting is not >> reached. It will charge the battery until that setting is reached then turn >> on the inverter. >> >> >> If the Shutdown was because of a PV Insulation *Fault* or some other >> critical ESS fault it will not restart until that issue is corrected. You >> can blame that on the UL code writers as it is REQUIRED to get the UL >> certifications. >> >> >> >> We also do full generator passthrough just like all other AIO's. And yes >> as pointed out several times on the forum the relay for the generator is >> not closed, as the inverter qualifies the generator before it closes. The >> reason is that we can use the PV input and the generator at the same time. >> But, it is monitored so you do not blow us the generator if the PV exceeds >> the Gen input and the load or charging drops. Is this perfect? No, it needs >> some work. The current AGS is basic and needs work. >> >> >> You can fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is >> available at all times, but you will lose the AGS. >> >> >> >> >> Everyone at MNS is taking notes of all the issues with the Current AIO's >> (all brands including our AIO), and the state of China made / China >> supported inverters. >> >> >> MNS will be looking to reset the market soon with a New, US Made, >> Designed, and supported AIO (not just assembled from China parts like some >> others with the same firmware). Using proven SiC Fet technology (Rosie >> inverter technology). With a full set of controls for LA batteries, and >> Generator, just like in the old days. Touch Screen programming, and self >> hosted web server remote accesses and control, not data sent to the cloud. >> If you worry about support, and security, then this inverter will address >> these needs. All the firmware is written in house, PCB boards populated >> inhouse, and components origins verified. >> >> >> >> We will not say more because of MNS bad reputation of *announcing and >> not delivering*, so in the next 6 months, we will have something great >> to offer. We are going back to our Roots (Trace, Outback, and Magnum, >> can all be linked back to this team). >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> On behalf of Midnite Solar >> >> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out >>> of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. >>> >>> The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with a >>> NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator >>> input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able >>> to charge the battery without user intervention. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Jason, >>>> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter >>>> gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed >>>> loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite >>>> AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with >>>> that yet. >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot Solark >>>>> systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or otherwise >>>>> low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then takes the >>>>> battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would be a >>>>> different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for >>>>> vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming back. >>>>> >>>>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really >>>>> not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure >>>>> there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least >>>>> you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to >>>>> get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>>>> >>>>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 >>>>> years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned >>>>> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >>>>> >>>>> Ray Walters >>>>> Remote Solar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. >>>>> In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the >>>>> background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next >>>>> day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>>>> >>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> >>>>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always >>>>> recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply >>>>> to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my >>>>> aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >>>>> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >>>>> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>>>> >>>>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and >>>>> wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the >>>>> offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing >>>>> like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of >>>>> new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will >>>>> Robinson) >>>>> >>>>> Ray Walters >>>>> Remote Solar >>>>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send >>>>> generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, >>>>> sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>>>> >>>>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical >>>>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the >>>>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default >>>>> function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage >>>>> on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the >>>>> inverter back on automatically. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>>>> >>>>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen >>>>>> to bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the >>>>>> logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of >>>>>> the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>>>>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>>>>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>>>>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>>>>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>>>>> in my limited experience. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >>>>>> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >>>>>> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >>>>>> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>>>>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>>>>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>>>>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>>>>> battery manually is no easy task. >>>>>> >>>>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in >>>>>> an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn >>>>>> the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON >>>>>> somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And >>>>>> since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, >>>>>> and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can >>>>>> even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is >>>>>> too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter >>>>>> doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of >>>>>> the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will >>>>>> both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >>>>>> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >>>>>> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >>>>>> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >>>>>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>>>>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>>>> >>>>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is >>>>>> met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong >>>>>> about how this works? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed May 14 11:51:53 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 11:51:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great info. Are there any AGS out there that can communicate with Pytes or other batteries via RS-485 and trigger based on battery SOC rather than using raw voltage? That would solve one issue. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, May 14, 2025, 11:28 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > When using the AC input the substitute to use the AGS is to use an > external AGS Start relay. There are many customers using big > generators through the 100 Amp input with no issues. There is a request to > modify the AGS to work with the 100 amp AC in. > > On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:09 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Thank you for this information. Regarding the statement, "You can fully >> use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is available at all >> times, but you will lose the AGS..." >> >> I don't think MNS tech support knows this. I'm pretty sure Rick told me >> no, and I know that Ronald unequivocally told me it was not allowed. >> >> What if the generator was connected to the grid input, but you still >> programmed the generator Smart Load output for a generator, would the AGS >> work in that case? Or if there is "Grid" voltage when the generator starts, >> would that cause the AGS to disengage and then the process would repeat >> itself in a loop? >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 10:57 AM William Bryce < >> wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: >> >>> Everyone, Please forgive MNS for not promptly responding to the >>> questions. >>> >>> Midnite Solar does not currently have an official poster for the >>> Wrenches List. Per the rules of the list, MNS is working to get a new Rep >>> to work with the installers as we always have. >>> >>> To address the questions that were fielded: >>> >>> The solar array will continue to power the system and dark start the >>> inverter if needed. >>> >>> >>> >>> If you use the machine you can test. Just turn off ALL the Power, >>> including the DC in from the battery. The screen will be dark and when you >>> turn on the PV input the machine will go into standby. >>> >>> >>> >>> If the machine shuts down due to a LVCO then it will auto restart (Via >>> PV input) UNLESS the "Min Initiation Startup (off Grid)" setting is not >>> reached. It will charge the battery until that setting is reached then turn >>> on the inverter. >>> >>> >>> If the Shutdown was because of a PV Insulation *Fault* or some other >>> critical ESS fault it will not restart until that issue is corrected. You >>> can blame that on the UL code writers as it is REQUIRED to get the UL >>> certifications. >>> >>> >>> >>> We also do full generator passthrough just like all other AIO's. And yes >>> as pointed out several times on the forum the relay for the generator is >>> not closed, as the inverter qualifies the generator before it closes. The >>> reason is that we can use the PV input and the generator at the same time. >>> But, it is monitored so you do not blow us the generator if the PV exceeds >>> the Gen input and the load or charging drops. Is this perfect? No, it needs >>> some work. The current AGS is basic and needs work. >>> >>> >>> You can fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is >>> available at all times, but you will lose the AGS. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Everyone at MNS is taking notes of all the issues with the Current AIO's >>> (all brands including our AIO), and the state of China made / China >>> supported inverters. >>> >>> >>> MNS will be looking to reset the market soon with a New, US Made, >>> Designed, and supported AIO (not just assembled from China parts like some >>> others with the same firmware). Using proven SiC Fet technology (Rosie >>> inverter technology). With a full set of controls for LA batteries, and >>> Generator, just like in the old days. Touch Screen programming, and self >>> hosted web server remote accesses and control, not data sent to the cloud. >>> If you worry about support, and security, then this inverter will address >>> these needs. All the firmware is written in house, PCB boards populated >>> inhouse, and components origins verified. >>> >>> >>> >>> We will not say more because of MNS bad reputation of *announcing and >>> not delivering*, so in the next 6 months, we will have something great >>> to offer. We are going back to our Roots (Trace, Outback, and Magnum, >>> can all be linked back to this team). >>> >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> >>> On behalf of Midnite Solar >>> >>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out >>>> of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. >>>> >>>> The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with >>>> a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator >>>> input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able >>>> to charge the battery without user intervention. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jason, >>>>> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter >>>>> gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed >>>>> loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite >>>>> AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with >>>>> that yet. >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot >>>>>> Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or >>>>>> otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then >>>>>> takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would >>>>>> be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but >>>>>> for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming >>>>>> back. >>>>>> >>>>>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really >>>>>> not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure >>>>>> there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least >>>>>> you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to >>>>>> get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>>>>> >>>>>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, >>>>>> 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned >>>>>> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >>>>>> >>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. >>>>>> In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the >>>>>> background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next >>>>>> day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> >>>>>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always >>>>>> recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply >>>>>> to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my >>>>>> aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >>>>>> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >>>>>> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>>>>> >>>>>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and >>>>>> wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the >>>>>> offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing >>>>>> like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of >>>>>> new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will >>>>>> Robinson) >>>>>> >>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send >>>>>> generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, >>>>>> sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical >>>>>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the >>>>>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default >>>>>> function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage >>>>>> on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the >>>>>> inverter back on automatically. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen >>>>>>> to bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in >>>>>>> the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike >>>>>>> some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>>>>>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>>>>>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>>>>>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>>>>>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>>>>>> in my limited experience. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >>>>>>> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >>>>>>> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >>>>>>> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>>>>>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>>>>>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>>>>>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>>>>>> battery manually is no easy task. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in >>>>>>> an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn >>>>>>> the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON >>>>>>> somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And >>>>>>> since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, >>>>>>> and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can >>>>>>> even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is >>>>>>> too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter >>>>>>> doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>>>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of >>>>>>> the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will >>>>>>> both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >>>>>>> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >>>>>>> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >>>>>>> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >>>>>>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>>>>>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is >>>>>>> met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong >>>>>>> about how this works? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed May 14 11:59:41 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 11:59:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wrenches error Message-ID: Hi there, I just tried to respond to a wrenches post and was served this error. Any idea why that might be? Kindly, Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_6619.png Type: image/png Size: 225541 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Wed May 14 12:07:56 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 12:07:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I "have been told" that you can do it with a Victron Cerbo. But, I have not tried it personally. I'm sure a Victron expert can chime in. I understand that the Cerbo can trigger a dry contact to serve as the Start stop. I monitor the AIO with a Cerbo but have not used it to control anything based on reported SOC. On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Great info. > > Are there any AGS out there that can communicate with Pytes or other > batteries via RS-485 and trigger based on battery SOC rather than using raw > voltage? That would solve one issue. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Wed, May 14, 2025, 11:28 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> When using the AC input the substitute to use the AGS is to use an >> external AGS Start relay. There are many customers using big >> generators through the 100 Amp input with no issues. There is a request to >> modify the AGS to work with the 100 amp AC in. >> >> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:09 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Thank you for this information. Regarding the statement, "You can fully >>> use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is available at all >>> times, but you will lose the AGS..." >>> >>> I don't think MNS tech support knows this. I'm pretty sure Rick told me >>> no, and I know that Ronald unequivocally told me it was not allowed. >>> >>> What if the generator was connected to the grid input, but you still >>> programmed the generator Smart Load output for a generator, would the AGS >>> work in that case? Or if there is "Grid" voltage when the generator starts, >>> would that cause the AGS to disengage and then the process would repeat >>> itself in a loop? >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 10:57 AM William Bryce < >>> wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Everyone, Please forgive MNS for not promptly responding to the >>>> questions. >>>> >>>> Midnite Solar does not currently have an official poster for the >>>> Wrenches List. Per the rules of the list, MNS is working to get a new Rep >>>> to work with the installers as we always have. >>>> >>>> To address the questions that were fielded: >>>> >>>> The solar array will continue to power the system and dark start the >>>> inverter if needed. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If you use the machine you can test. Just turn off ALL the Power, >>>> including the DC in from the battery. The screen will be dark and when you >>>> turn on the PV input the machine will go into standby. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If the machine shuts down due to a LVCO then it will auto restart (Via >>>> PV input) UNLESS the "Min Initiation Startup (off Grid)" setting is not >>>> reached. It will charge the battery until that setting is reached then turn >>>> on the inverter. >>>> >>>> >>>> If the Shutdown was because of a PV Insulation *Fault* or some other >>>> critical ESS fault it will not restart until that issue is corrected. You >>>> can blame that on the UL code writers as it is REQUIRED to get the UL >>>> certifications. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We also do full generator passthrough just like all other AIO's. And >>>> yes as pointed out several times on the forum the relay for the >>>> generator is not closed, as the inverter qualifies the generator before it >>>> closes. The reason is that we can use the PV input and the generator at the >>>> same time. But, it is monitored so you do not blow us the generator if the >>>> PV exceeds the Gen input and the load or charging drops. Is this perfect? >>>> No, it needs some work. The current AGS is basic and needs work. >>>> >>>> >>>> You can fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is >>>> available at all times, but you will lose the AGS. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Everyone at MNS is taking notes of all the issues with the Current >>>> AIO's (all brands including our AIO), and the state of China made / China >>>> supported inverters. >>>> >>>> >>>> MNS will be looking to reset the market soon with a New, US Made, >>>> Designed, and supported AIO (not just assembled from China parts like some >>>> others with the same firmware). Using proven SiC Fet technology (Rosie >>>> inverter technology). With a full set of controls for LA batteries, and >>>> Generator, just like in the old days. Touch Screen programming, and self >>>> hosted web server remote accesses and control, not data sent to the cloud. >>>> If you worry about support, and security, then this inverter will address >>>> these needs. All the firmware is written in house, PCB boards populated >>>> inhouse, and components origins verified. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We will not say more because of MNS bad reputation of *announcing and >>>> not delivering*, so in the next 6 months, we will have something great >>>> to offer. We are going back to our Roots (Trace, Outback, and >>>> Magnum, can all be linked back to this team). >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> >>>> On behalf of Midnite Solar >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out >>>>> of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. >>>>> >>>>> The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with >>>>> a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator >>>>> input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able >>>>> to charge the battery without user intervention. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jason, >>>>>> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter >>>>>> gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed >>>>>> loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite >>>>>> AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with >>>>>> that yet. >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Dave >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot >>>>>>> Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or >>>>>>> otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then >>>>>>> takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would >>>>>>> be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but >>>>>>> for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming >>>>>>> back. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really >>>>>>> not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure >>>>>>> there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least >>>>>>> you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to >>>>>>> get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, >>>>>>> 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned >>>>>>> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid >>>>>>> clients. In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in >>>>>>> the background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the >>>>>>> next day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always >>>>>>> recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply >>>>>>> to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my >>>>>>> aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >>>>>>> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >>>>>>> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and >>>>>>> wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the >>>>>>> offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing >>>>>>> like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of >>>>>>> new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will >>>>>>> Robinson) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and >>>>>>> send generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For >>>>>>> retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical >>>>>>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the >>>>>>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default >>>>>>> function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage >>>>>>> on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the >>>>>>> inverter back on automatically. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>>>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the >>>>>>>> gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in >>>>>>>> the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike >>>>>>>> some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>>>>>>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>>>>>>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>>>>>>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>>>>>>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>>>>>>> in my limited experience. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >>>>>>>> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >>>>>>>> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >>>>>>>> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>>>>>>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>>>>>>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>>>>>>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>>>>>>> battery manually is no easy task. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in >>>>>>>> an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn >>>>>>>> the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON >>>>>>>> somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And >>>>>>>> since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, >>>>>>>> and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can >>>>>>>> even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is >>>>>>>> too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter >>>>>>>> doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>>>>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of >>>>>>>> the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will >>>>>>>> both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >>>>>>>> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >>>>>>>> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >>>>>>>> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >>>>>>>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>>>>>>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is >>>>>>>> met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong >>>>>>>> about how this works? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed May 14 12:18:28 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 11:18:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7DBBF139-D8AE-44AF-B74B-56985A2EAB5A@mavericksolar.com> In the case of extra redundancy, I have installed the EG4 Chargeverter and a 30A L14-30 Inlet and made the customer a suitable length L14-30 Extension Cord that they can use with their manual start secondary / tertiary portable generator just in case the primary generator has failed to start. The Chargeverter is quite small and can handle about 5kW of charge just in case… The charge voltage is programmable as is the current. It is inverter and battery agnostic. The Chargeverter used to be inexpensive compared to what it does. The last time I checked it is over $700 and also always seems to be on backorder. Still worth it. The Chargeverter has two wire start and can start based on voltage and SOC (if that is where the batteries are communicating / not that useful for most cases). If the Chargeverter is the primary generator AC to DC Charger, all AIO inverters could benefit from DC Generator = Y / N setting. Reference : Available setting on XW and Outback. For that matter, I am sure there are other suitable chargers that can be added as an emergency spare. Ten years ago or more, I added an IOTA charger to 24V FX inverter so the customer could use their Honda 2000 to charge the battery without the warbling electricity going into the house because FX sans PF correction… Remember those fun days? Grid > Inverter / Battery / Solar >> Generator >>> Generator >>>> Candles  Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On May 14, 2025, at 8:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. > > The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able to charge the battery without user intervention. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Jason, >> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with that yet. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming back. >>> >>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>> >>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>>> >>>> Michael D Nelson >>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>> >>>>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>>>> >>>>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) >>>>> >>>>> Ray Walters >>>>> Remote Solar >>>>> >>>>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the inverter back on automatically. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work in my limited experience. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the battery manually is no easy task. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>>>>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about how this works? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0168.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 93663 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed May 14 12:18:45 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 12:18:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Discover Link II has AGS capability (much better than typical AIO inverters), but it can only pair with Discover AES Rackmount and Helios. On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 12:08 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I "have been told" that you can do it with a Victron Cerbo. But, I have > not tried it personally. I'm sure a Victron expert can chime in. I > understand that the Cerbo can trigger a dry contact to serve as the Start > stop. I monitor the AIO with a Cerbo but have not used it to control > anything based on reported SOC. > > On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Great info. >> >> Are there any AGS out there that can communicate with Pytes or other >> batteries via RS-485 and trigger based on battery SOC rather than using raw >> voltage? That would solve one issue. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 11:28 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> When using the AC input the substitute to use the AGS is to use an >>> external AGS Start relay. There are many customers using big >>> generators through the 100 Amp input with no issues. There is a request to >>> modify the AGS to work with the 100 amp AC in. >>> >>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:09 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Thank you for this information. Regarding the statement, "You can fully >>>> use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is available at all >>>> times, but you will lose the AGS..." >>>> >>>> I don't think MNS tech support knows this. I'm pretty sure Rick told me >>>> no, and I know that Ronald unequivocally told me it was not allowed. >>>> >>>> What if the generator was connected to the grid input, but you still >>>> programmed the generator Smart Load output for a generator, would the AGS >>>> work in that case? Or if there is "Grid" voltage when the generator starts, >>>> would that cause the AGS to disengage and then the process would repeat >>>> itself in a loop? >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 10:57 AM William Bryce < >>>> wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Everyone, Please forgive MNS for not promptly responding to the >>>>> questions. >>>>> >>>>> Midnite Solar does not currently have an official poster for the >>>>> Wrenches List. Per the rules of the list, MNS is working to get a new Rep >>>>> to work with the installers as we always have. >>>>> >>>>> To address the questions that were fielded: >>>>> >>>>> The solar array will continue to power the system and dark start the >>>>> inverter if needed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If you use the machine you can test. Just turn off ALL the Power, >>>>> including the DC in from the battery. The screen will be dark and when you >>>>> turn on the PV input the machine will go into standby. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If the machine shuts down due to a LVCO then it will auto restart (Via >>>>> PV input) UNLESS the "Min Initiation Startup (off Grid)" setting is not >>>>> reached. It will charge the battery until that setting is reached then turn >>>>> on the inverter. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If the Shutdown was because of a PV Insulation *Fault* or some other >>>>> critical ESS fault it will not restart until that issue is corrected. You >>>>> can blame that on the UL code writers as it is REQUIRED to get the UL >>>>> certifications. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We also do full generator passthrough just like all other AIO's. And >>>>> yes as pointed out several times on the forum the relay for the >>>>> generator is not closed, as the inverter qualifies the generator before it >>>>> closes. The reason is that we can use the PV input and the generator at the >>>>> same time. But, it is monitored so you do not blow us the generator if the >>>>> PV exceeds the Gen input and the load or charging drops. Is this perfect? >>>>> No, it needs some work. The current AGS is basic and needs work. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You can fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is >>>>> available at all times, but you will lose the AGS. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Everyone at MNS is taking notes of all the issues with the Current >>>>> AIO's (all brands including our AIO), and the state of China made / China >>>>> supported inverters. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> MNS will be looking to reset the market soon with a New, US Made, >>>>> Designed, and supported AIO (not just assembled from China parts like some >>>>> others with the same firmware). Using proven SiC Fet technology (Rosie >>>>> inverter technology). With a full set of controls for LA batteries, and >>>>> Generator, just like in the old days. Touch Screen programming, and self >>>>> hosted web server remote accesses and control, not data sent to the cloud. >>>>> If you worry about support, and security, then this inverter will address >>>>> these needs. All the firmware is written in house, PCB boards populated >>>>> inhouse, and components origins verified. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We will not say more because of MNS bad reputation of *announcing and >>>>> not delivering*, so in the next 6 months, we will have something >>>>> great to offer. We are going back to our Roots (Trace, Outback, and >>>>> Magnum, can all be linked back to this team). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On behalf of Midnite Solar >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed >>>>>> (i.e.out of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. >>>>>> >>>>>> The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled >>>>>> with a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The >>>>>> generator input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it >>>>>> should be able to charge the battery without user intervention. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason, >>>>>>> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter >>>>>>> gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed >>>>>>> loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite >>>>>>> AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with >>>>>>> that yet. >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot >>>>>>>> Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or >>>>>>>> otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then >>>>>>>> takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would >>>>>>>> be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but >>>>>>>> for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming >>>>>>>> back. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really >>>>>>>> not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure >>>>>>>> there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least >>>>>>>> you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to >>>>>>>> get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, >>>>>>>> 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned >>>>>>>> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid >>>>>>>> clients. In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in >>>>>>>> the background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the >>>>>>>> next day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>>>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>>>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>>>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>>>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always >>>>>>>> recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply >>>>>>>> to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my >>>>>>>> aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >>>>>>>> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >>>>>>>> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and >>>>>>>> wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the >>>>>>>> offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing >>>>>>>> like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of >>>>>>>> new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will >>>>>>>> Robinson) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and >>>>>>>> send generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For >>>>>>>> retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical >>>>>>>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the >>>>>>>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default >>>>>>>> function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage >>>>>>>> on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the >>>>>>>> inverter back on automatically. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>>>>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the >>>>>>>>> gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in >>>>>>>>> the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike >>>>>>>>> some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>>>>>>>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>>>>>>>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>>>>>>>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>>>>>>>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>>>>>>>> in my limited experience. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >>>>>>>>> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >>>>>>>>> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >>>>>>>>> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>>>>>>>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>>>>>>>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>>>>>>>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>>>>>>>> battery manually is no easy task. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is >>>>>>>>> in an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn >>>>>>>>> the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON >>>>>>>>> somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And >>>>>>>>> since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, >>>>>>>>> and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can >>>>>>>>> even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is >>>>>>>>> too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter >>>>>>>>> doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>>>>>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of >>>>>>>>> the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will >>>>>>>>> both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >>>>>>>>> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >>>>>>>>> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >>>>>>>>> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >>>>>>>>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>>>>>>>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is >>>>>>>>> met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong >>>>>>>>> about how this works? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed May 14 12:49:31 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 12:49:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: <7DBBF139-D8AE-44AF-B74B-56985A2EAB5A@mavericksolar.com> References: <7DBBF139-D8AE-44AF-B74B-56985A2EAB5A@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: I will be using a Chargeverter tomorrow to dark start a set of Pytes. I like the idea of including one of these with every system if the customer will pony up the money. I'm worried that development of the existing AIO is going to take a backseat to the development of a new US-made model, which could take a significant amount of time to bring to market. I'm hoping MNS we'll continue to make improvements and fix some of these deficiencies. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, May 14, 2025, 12:20 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > In the case of extra redundancy, I have installed the EG4 Chargeverter and > a 30A L14-30 Inlet and made the customer a suitable length L14-30 Extension > Cord that they can use with their manual start secondary / tertiary > portable generator just in case the primary generator has failed to start. > The Chargeverter is quite small and can handle about 5kW of charge just in > case… The charge voltage is programmable as is the current. It is inverter > and battery agnostic. > > The Chargeverter used to be inexpensive compared to what it does. The last > time I checked it is over $700 and also always seems to be on backorder. > Still worth it. The Chargeverter has two wire start and can start based on > voltage and SOC (if that is where the batteries are communicating / not > that useful for most cases). > > If the Chargeverter is the primary generator AC to DC Charger, all AIO > inverters could benefit from DC Generator = Y / N setting. Reference : > Available setting on XW and Outback. > > For that matter, I am sure there are other suitable chargers that can be > added as an emergency spare. Ten years ago or more, I added an IOTA charger > to 24V FX inverter so the customer could use their Honda 2000 to charge the > battery without the warbling electricity going into the house because FX > sans PF correction… Remember those fun days? > > Grid > > Inverter / Battery / Solar > >> Generator > >>> Generator > >>>> Candles > > > [image: IMG_0168.jpeg] > > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* > * • Solar Commander Remote Power* > > * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection *maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > On May 14, 2025, at 8:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out of > fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. > > The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with a > NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator > input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able > to charge the battery without user intervention. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, >> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter gets >> to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed loop >> comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite AIO >> setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with that >> yet. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot Solark >>> systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or otherwise >>> low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then takes the >>> battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would be a >>> different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for >>> vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming back. >>> >>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really not >>> clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure >>> there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least >>> you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to >>> get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>> >>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 >>> years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned >>> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. In >>> the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the background >>> and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next day and >>> turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>> 707-884-1862 office >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend >>> a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get >>> the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging >>> backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >>> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >>> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>> >>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake >>> up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid >>> battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like >>> Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new >>> Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send >>> generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, >>> sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>> >>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical >>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the >>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default >>> function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage >>> on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the >>> inverter back on automatically. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>> >>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to >>>> bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the >>>> logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of >>>> the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>>> in my limited experience. >>>> >>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >>>> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >>>> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >>>> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>>> battery manually is no easy task. >>>> >>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an >>>> OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter >>>> ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that >>>> the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup >>>> sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, >>>> that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the >>>> inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I >>>> don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even >>>> see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the >>>> other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both >>>> immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >>>> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >>>> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >>>> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >>>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>> >>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met >>>> and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about >>>> how this works? >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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Name: IMG_0168.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 93663 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Wed May 14 12:57:06 2025 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 10:57:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 inverter noise In-Reply-To: <7DBBF139-D8AE-44AF-B74B-56985A2EAB5A@mavericksolar.com> References: <7DBBF139-D8AE-44AF-B74B-56985A2EAB5A@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <000d01dbc4f1$3b33e220$b19ba660$@OasisMontana.com> Just as an aside, is anyone else having major noise problems with the EG4 inverters? We’ve only sold one and its output is – seriously -- 90 decibels. My customer is rather deaf but his wife is not and it’s driving her/them nuts. I am rather reluctant to sell another unless they have a separate power shed or the like. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2025 10:18 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Maverick Brown Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In the case of extra redundancy, I have installed the EG4 Chargeverter and a 30A L14-30 Inlet and made the customer a suitable length L14-30 Extension Cord that they can use with their manual start secondary / tertiary portable generator just in case the primary generator has failed to start. The Chargeverter is quite small and can handle about 5kW of charge just in case… The charge voltage is programmable as is the current. It is inverter and battery agnostic. The Chargeverter used to be inexpensive compared to what it does. The last time I checked it is over $700 and also always seems to be on backorder. Still worth it. The Chargeverter has two wire start and can start based on voltage and SOC (if that is where the batteries are communicating / not that useful for most cases). If the Chargeverter is the primary generator AC to DC Charger, all AIO inverters could benefit from DC Generator = Y / N setting. Reference : Available setting on XW and Outback. For that matter, I am sure there are other suitable chargers that can be added as an emergency spare. Ten years ago or more, I added an IOTA charger to 24V FX inverter so the customer could use their Honda 2000 to charge the battery without the warbling electricity going into the house because FX sans PF correction… Remember those fun days? Grid > Inverter / Battery / Solar >> Generator >>> Generator >>>> Candles Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On May 14, 2025, at 8:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able to charge the battery without user intervention. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Jason, Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with that yet. Cheers, Dave On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming back. Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:  So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the inverter back on automatically. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work in my limited experience. Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the battery manually is no easy task. Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about how this works? Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 78813 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 14 12:20:43 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 10:20:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 inverter noise In-Reply-To: <000d01dbc4f1$3b33e220$b19ba660$@OasisMontana.com> References: <7DBBF139-D8AE-44AF-B74B-56985A2EAB5A@mavericksolar.com> <000d01dbc4f1$3b33e220$b19ba660$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <0D312F39-C517-4990-9235-D0949DC12026@gmail.com> Which version? > On May 14, 2025, at 10:57 AM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Just as an aside, is anyone else having major noise problems with the EG4 inverters? We’ve only sold one and its output is – seriously -- 90 decibels. My customer is rather deaf but his wife is not and it’s driving her/them nuts. I am rather reluctant to sell another unless they have a separate power shed or the like. > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2025 10:18 AM > To: RE-wrenches > > Cc: Maverick Brown > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality > > In the case of extra redundancy, I have installed the EG4 Chargeverter and a 30A L14-30 Inlet and made the customer a suitable length L14-30 Extension Cord that they can use with their manual start secondary / tertiary portable generator just in case the primary generator has failed to start. The Chargeverter is quite small and can handle about 5kW of charge just in case… The charge voltage is programmable as is the current. It is inverter and battery agnostic. > > The Chargeverter used to be inexpensive compared to what it does. The last time I checked it is over $700 and also always seems to be on backorder. Still worth it. The Chargeverter has two wire start and can start based on voltage and SOC (if that is where the batteries are communicating / not that useful for most cases). > > If the Chargeverter is the primary generator AC to DC Charger, all AIO inverters could benefit from DC Generator = Y / N setting. Reference : Available setting on XW and Outback. > > For that matter, I am sure there are other suitable chargers that can be added as an emergency spare. Ten years ago or more, I added an IOTA charger to 24V FX inverter so the customer could use their Honda 2000 to charge the battery without the warbling electricity going into the house because FX sans PF correction… Remember those fun days? > > Grid > > Inverter / Battery / Solar > >> Generator > >>> Generator > >>>> Candles > > > > > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > >> On May 14, 2025, at 8:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. >> >> The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able to charge the battery without user intervention. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> Jason, >>> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with that yet. >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming back. >>>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>>>> >>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>>>>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) >>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the inverter back on automatically. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>>>   https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work in my limited experience. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the battery manually is no easy task. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>>>>>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about how this works? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 14 12:24:52 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 10:24:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: <7DBBF139-D8AE-44AF-B74B-56985A2EAB5A@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <590C4F8B-93BD-4470-9B6D-DC97D5F266E7@gmail.com> wow the price has basically doubled > On May 14, 2025, at 10:49 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I will be using a Chargeverter tomorrow to dark start a set of Pytes. I like the idea of including one of these with every system if the customer will pony up the money. > > I'm worried that development of the existing AIO is going to take a backseat to the development of a new US-made model, which could take a significant amount of time to bring to market. I'm hoping MNS we'll continue to make improvements and fix some of these deficiencies. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Wed, May 14, 2025, 12:20 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> In the case of extra redundancy, I have installed the EG4 Chargeverter and a 30A L14-30 Inlet and made the customer a suitable length L14-30 Extension Cord that they can use with their manual start secondary / tertiary portable generator just in case the primary generator has failed to start. The Chargeverter is quite small and can handle about 5kW of charge just in case… The charge voltage is programmable as is the current. It is inverter and battery agnostic. >> >> The Chargeverter used to be inexpensive compared to what it does. The last time I checked it is over $700 and also always seems to be on backorder. Still worth it. The Chargeverter has two wire start and can start based on voltage and SOC (if that is where the batteries are communicating / not that useful for most cases). >> >> If the Chargeverter is the primary generator AC to DC Charger, all AIO inverters could benefit from DC Generator = Y / N setting. Reference : Available setting on XW and Outback. >> >> For that matter, I am sure there are other suitable chargers that can be added as an emergency spare. Ten years ago or more, I added an IOTA charger to 24V FX inverter so the customer could use their Honda 2000 to charge the battery without the warbling electricity going into the house because FX sans PF correction… Remember those fun days? >> >> Grid >> > Inverter / Battery / Solar >> >> Generator >> >>> Generator >> >>>> Candles >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >>> On May 14, 2025, at 8:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>> That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. >>> >>> The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able to charge the battery without user intervention. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> Jason, >>>> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with that yet. >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming back. >>>>> >>>>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>>>> >>>>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >>>>> >>>>> Ray Walters >>>>> Remote Solar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  >>>>>>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the inverter back on automatically. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>>>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work in my limited experience. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the battery manually is no easy task. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>>>>>>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about how this works? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Wed May 14 14:02:48 2025 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 12:02:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 inverter noise In-Reply-To: <0D312F39-C517-4990-9235-D0949DC12026@gmail.com> References: <7DBBF139-D8AE-44AF-B74B-56985A2EAB5A@mavericksolar.com> <000d01dbc4f1$3b33e220$b19ba660$@OasisMontana.com> <0D312F39-C517-4990-9235-D0949DC12026@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003c01dbc4fa$67af9570$370ec050$@OasisMontana.com> EG4 6000XP off-grid inverter. We’d heard of these but not sold one and the customer had his heart set on it, so we sold it to him. Then he had (and continues to have) noise problems. What can I say, we don’t like to use our customers as guinea pigs – but with our ‘old reliables’ closing down or going out of business, we’ve got to try new things from time to time. So far, Sol-Ark and Enphase seem to be doing OK. --Chris @ the Oasis Montana From: jay Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2025 10:21 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: chris at OasisMontana.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 inverter noise Which version? On May 14, 2025, at 10:57 AM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches > wrote: Just as an aside, is anyone else having major noise problems with the EG4 inverters? We’ve only sold one and its output is – seriously -- 90 decibels. My customer is rather deaf but his wife is not and it’s driving her/them nuts. I am rather reluctant to sell another unless they have a separate power shed or the like. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. From: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> On Behalf Of Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2025 10:18 AM To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Cc: Maverick Brown < maverick at mavericksolar.com> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In the case of extra redundancy, I have installed the EG4 Chargeverter and a 30A L14-30 Inlet and made the customer a suitable length L14-30 Extension Cord that they can use with their manual start secondary / tertiary portable generator just in case the primary generator has failed to start. The Chargeverter is quite small and can handle about 5kW of charge just in case… The charge voltage is programmable as is the current. It is inverter and battery agnostic. The Chargeverter used to be inexpensive compared to what it does. The last time I checked it is over $700 and also always seems to be on backorder. Still worth it. The Chargeverter has two wire start and can start based on voltage and SOC (if that is where the batteries are communicating / not that useful for most cases). If the Chargeverter is the primary generator AC to DC Charger, all AIO inverters could benefit from DC Generator = Y / N setting. Reference : Available setting on XW and Outback. For that matter, I am sure there are other suitable chargers that can be added as an emergency spare. Ten years ago or more, I added an IOTA charger to 24V FX inverter so the customer could use their Honda 2000 to charge the battery without the warbling electricity going into the house because FX sans PF correction… Remember those fun days? Grid > Inverter / Battery / Solar >> Generator >>> Generator >>>> Candles Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On May 14, 2025, at 8:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able to charge the battery without user intervention. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Jason, Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with that yet. Cheers, Dave On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming back. Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:  So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the inverter back on automatically. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work in my limited experience. Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the battery manually is no easy task. Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about how this works? Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 14 14:25:02 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 11:25:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 inverter noise In-Reply-To: <003c01dbc4fa$67af9570$370ec050$@OasisMontana.com> References: <003c01dbc4fa$67af9570$370ec050$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <3CF5DF37-3810-49FD-803E-423DCCAED1A0@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Wed May 14 10:57:20 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 10:57:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Everyone, Please forgive MNS for not promptly responding to the questions. Midnite Solar does not currently have an official poster for the Wrenches List. Per the rules of the list, MNS is working to get a new Rep to work with the installers as we always have. To address the questions that were fielded: The solar array will continue to power the system and dark start the inverter if needed. If you use the machine you can test. Just turn off ALL the Power, including the DC in from the battery. The screen will be dark and when you turn on the PV input the machine will go into standby. If the machine shuts down due to a LVCO then it will auto restart (Via PV input) UNLESS the "Min Initiation Startup (off Grid)" setting is not reached. It will charge the battery until that setting is reached then turn on the inverter. If the Shutdown was because of a PV Insulation *Fault* or some other critical ESS fault it will not restart until that issue is corrected. You can blame that on the UL code writers as it is REQUIRED to get the UL certifications. We also do full generator passthrough just like all other AIO's. And yes as pointed out several times on the forum the relay for the generator is not closed, as the inverter qualifies the generator before it closes. The reason is that we can use the PV input and the generator at the same time. But, it is monitored so you do not blow us the generator if the PV exceeds the Gen input and the load or charging drops. Is this perfect? No, it needs some work. The current AGS is basic and needs work. You can fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is available at all times, but you will lose the AGS. Everyone at MNS is taking notes of all the issues with the Current AIO's (all brands including our AIO), and the state of China made / China supported inverters. MNS will be looking to reset the market soon with a New, US Made, Designed, and supported AIO (not just assembled from China parts like some others with the same firmware). Using proven SiC Fet technology (Rosie inverter technology). With a full set of controls for LA batteries, and Generator, just like in the old days. Touch Screen programming, and self hosted web server remote accesses and control, not data sent to the cloud. If you worry about support, and security, then this inverter will address these needs. All the firmware is written in house, PCB boards populated inhouse, and components origins verified. We will not say more because of MNS bad reputation of *announcing and not delivering*, so in the next 6 months, we will have something great to offer. We are going back to our Roots (Trace, Outback, and Magnum, can all be linked back to this team). Thanks On behalf of Midnite Solar On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out of > fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. > > The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with a > NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator > input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able > to charge the battery without user intervention. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, >> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter gets >> to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed loop >> comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite AIO >> setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with that >> yet. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot Solark >>> systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or otherwise >>> low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then takes the >>> battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would be a >>> different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for >>> vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming back. >>> >>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really not >>> clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure >>> there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least >>> you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to >>> get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>> >>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 >>> years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned >>> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. In >>> the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the background >>> and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next day and >>> turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>> 707-884-1862 office >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend >>> a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get >>> the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging >>> backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >>> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >>> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>> >>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake >>> up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid >>> battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like >>> Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new >>> Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send >>> generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, >>> sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>> >>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical >>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the >>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default >>> function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage >>> on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the >>> inverter back on automatically. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>> >>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to >>>> bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the >>>> logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of >>>> the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>>> in my limited experience. >>>> >>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >>>> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >>>> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >>>> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>>> battery manually is no easy task. >>>> >>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an >>>> OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter >>>> ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that >>>> the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup >>>> sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, >>>> that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the >>>> inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I >>>> don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even >>>> see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the >>>> other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both >>>> immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >>>> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >>>> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >>>> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >>>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>> >>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met >>>> and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about >>>> how this works? >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Wed May 14 17:18:59 2025 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 14:18:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1747257825855.15a52f7128d63f94@re-wrenches.org> Hi Wrenches. Just wanted you to know that I am working with Midnite to get a new techie on our list. Hopefully it won't be long, now. >Everyone, Please forgive MNS for not promptly responding to the questions. > > Midnite Solar does not currently have an official poster for the Wrenches List. Per the rules of the list, MNS is working to get a new Rep to work with the installers as we always have. From steve at surrette.com Wed May 14 17:37:55 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 14:37:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4, SRNE. "All In One" Inverters. Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, hope I'm not stirring up a hornets nest here, with all the talk about EG4 and some of the "All in One" inverters, I thought I would just mention that after careful review of EG4 and SRNE's manuals, I wouldn't use thier inverters on any Surrette/Rolls Batteries out there, if I were involved in the installation, since you cannot control absorb timers, or control when the inverter/charger transitions from absorb to float, I would be very hesitant to use these inverters with any lead battery. Lithium looks to be good, but IMO lead would be a no-go... They are not configurable enough to charge most lead-acid batteries correctly. I have reached out to both Signature Solar and EG4 regarding this matter, and to date, the messages sent over the past four months have not been responded to. I sent them another request today; hopefully, at some point, I will be able to make contact and work with them to get a solution. The Midnite AIO is programmable, but I have concerns about how it shuts off automatically when the generator is running, specifically when the State of Charge (SOC) reaches 80%. I have been speaking with Midnite about allowing the inverter to charge to 100% for this, but I think they are waiting for more field feedback before making a change. I have suggested that they set a timer that will go to 80% normally, but 1-2 times a week it'll take the lead battery to 100%... As you know, this isn't a problem with LFP or Li-ion... only going to 80% on lead all the time is going to result in severe capacity losses. With Sol Ark, you should contact them and obtain a firmware upgrade that they have developed for the lead batteries. This will enable you to control the end amp's time. You should also disable their battery resistance settings, as these can raise voltage and current when the battery's internal resistance is too high. This could cause damage to your sealed batteries, as temperature compensation is not considered. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed May 14 17:52:31 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 17:52:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4, SRNE. "All In One" Inverters. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Steve, In the Midnite App, I can set the generator stop state of charge at 100%. What do you mean by saying that it stops automatically at 80%? Also, charging to only 80% IS a problem with some LFP batteries. If they don't get to 100% routinely, the SOC can drift badly. And I have had issues with balancing cells on HomeGrid batteries that don't reach 100%. I was told that this can cause severe cell imbalances, and I have experienced a few battery module faults due to this issue (at least that is what HomGrid is blaming it on). I don't think charging LFP to 80% should be an issue, but in reality, it can be. I thought the BMSs were supposed to handle these issues well, but maybe they just aren't there yet.. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 5:39 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, hope I'm not stirring up a hornets nest here, with all > the talk about EG4 and some of the "All in One" inverters, I thought I > would just mention that after careful review of EG4 and SRNE's manuals, I > wouldn't use thier inverters on any Surrette/Rolls Batteries out there, if > I were involved in the installation, since you cannot control > absorb timers, or control when the inverter/charger transitions from > absorb to float, I would be very hesitant to use these inverters with any > lead battery. Lithium looks to be good, but IMO lead would be a no-go... > > They are not configurable enough to charge most lead-acid batteries > correctly. > I have reached out to both Signature Solar and EG4 regarding this matter, > and to date, the messages sent over the past four months have not been > responded to. I sent them another request today; hopefully, at some > point, I will be able to make contact and work with them to get a solution. > > The Midnite AIO is programmable, but I have concerns about how it shuts > off automatically when the generator is running, specifically when the > State of Charge (SOC) reaches 80%. I have been speaking with Midnite about > allowing the inverter to charge to 100% for this, but I think they are > waiting for more field feedback before making a change. I have suggested > that they set a timer that will go to 80% normally, but 1-2 times a week > it'll take the lead battery to 100%... As you know, this isn't a problem > with LFP or Li-ion... only going to 80% on lead all the time is going to > result in severe capacity losses. > > With Sol Ark, you should contact them and obtain a firmware upgrade that > they have developed for the lead batteries. This will enable you to > control the end amp's time. You should also disable their battery > resistance settings, as these can raise voltage and current when the > battery's internal resistance is too high. This could cause damage to your > sealed batteries, as temperature compensation is not considered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed May 14 17:57:39 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 14:57:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4, SRNE. "All In One" Inverters. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe they changed it... But in off-grid mode, the Auto Genstart would start at X SOC and then stop at 80%... As for Lithiums, only 80%... YES, you are correct, being able to get to 100% every so often will help with balancing individual modules. On ours, we typically advise 20-30 mins per parallel module for the absorb timer to allow for the BMS's to balance each module. With LFP's (At least ours), we would like to see people get them to full 100% at least once a month... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 2:52 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Steve, > > In the Midnite App, I can set the generator stop state of charge at 100%. > What do you mean by saying that it stops automatically at 80%? > > Also, charging to only 80% IS a problem with some LFP batteries. If they > don't get to 100% routinely, the SOC can drift badly. And I have had issues > with balancing cells on HomeGrid batteries that don't reach 100%. I was > told that this can cause severe cell imbalances, and I have experienced a > few battery module faults due to this issue (at least that is what > HomGrid is blaming it on). I don't think charging LFP to 80% should be an > issue, but in reality, it can be. I thought the BMSs were supposed to > handle these issues well, but maybe they just aren't there yet.. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 5:39 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, hope I'm not stirring up a hornets nest here, with all >> the talk about EG4 and some of the "All in One" inverters, I thought I >> would just mention that after careful review of EG4 and SRNE's manuals, I >> wouldn't use thier inverters on any Surrette/Rolls Batteries out there, if >> I were involved in the installation, since you cannot control >> absorb timers, or control when the inverter/charger transitions from >> absorb to float, I would be very hesitant to use these inverters with any >> lead battery. Lithium looks to be good, but IMO lead would be a no-go... >> >> They are not configurable enough to charge most lead-acid batteries >> correctly. >> I have reached out to both Signature Solar and EG4 regarding this matter, >> and to date, the messages sent over the past four months have not been >> responded to. I sent them another request today; hopefully, at some >> point, I will be able to make contact and work with them to get a solution. >> >> The Midnite AIO is programmable, but I have concerns about how it shuts >> off automatically when the generator is running, specifically when the >> State of Charge (SOC) reaches 80%. I have been speaking with Midnite about >> allowing the inverter to charge to 100% for this, but I think they are >> waiting for more field feedback before making a change. I have suggested >> that they set a timer that will go to 80% normally, but 1-2 times a week >> it'll take the lead battery to 100%... As you know, this isn't a problem >> with LFP or Li-ion... only going to 80% on lead all the time is going to >> result in severe capacity losses. >> >> With Sol Ark, you should contact them and obtain a firmware upgrade that >> they have developed for the lead batteries. This will enable you to >> control the end amp's time. You should also disable their battery >> resistance settings, as these can raise voltage and current when the >> battery's internal resistance is too high. This could cause damage to your >> sealed batteries, as temperature compensation is not considered. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager >> t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 >> f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for >> the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged >> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the >> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If >> you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or >> destroy this message and all copies. >> ------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed May 14 18:22:52 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 18:22:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4, SRNE. "All In One" Inverters. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I attached a screenshot of my app showing the range up to 100%. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, May 14, 2025, 5:57 PM Steve Higgins wrote: > Maybe they changed it... But in off-grid mode, the Auto Genstart would > start at X SOC and then stop at 80%... > > As for Lithiums, only 80%... YES, you are correct, being able to get to > 100% every so often will help with balancing individual modules. On ours, > we typically advise 20-30 mins per parallel module for the absorb timer to > allow for the BMS's to balance each module. > > With LFP's (At least ours), we would like to see people get them to full > 100% at least once a month... > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 2:52 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Steve, >> >> In the Midnite App, I can set the generator stop state of charge at 100%. >> What do you mean by saying that it stops automatically at 80%? >> >> Also, charging to only 80% IS a problem with some LFP batteries. If they >> don't get to 100% routinely, the SOC can drift badly. And I have had issues >> with balancing cells on HomeGrid batteries that don't reach 100%. I was >> told that this can cause severe cell imbalances, and I have experienced a >> few battery module faults due to this issue (at least that is what >> HomGrid is blaming it on). I don't think charging LFP to 80% should be an >> issue, but in reality, it can be. I thought the BMSs were supposed to >> handle these issues well, but maybe they just aren't there yet.. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 5:39 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello Wrenches, hope I'm not stirring up a hornets nest here, with all >>> the talk about EG4 and some of the "All in One" inverters, I thought I >>> would just mention that after careful review of EG4 and SRNE's manuals, I >>> wouldn't use thier inverters on any Surrette/Rolls Batteries out there, if >>> I were involved in the installation, since you cannot control >>> absorb timers, or control when the inverter/charger transitions from >>> absorb to float, I would be very hesitant to use these inverters with any >>> lead battery. Lithium looks to be good, but IMO lead would be a no-go... >>> >>> They are not configurable enough to charge most lead-acid batteries >>> correctly. >>> I have reached out to both Signature Solar and EG4 regarding this >>> matter, and to date, the messages sent over the past four months have not >>> been responded to. I sent them another request today; hopefully, at some >>> point, I will be able to make contact and work with them to get a solution. >>> >>> The Midnite AIO is programmable, but I have concerns about how it shuts >>> off automatically when the generator is running, specifically when the >>> State of Charge (SOC) reaches 80%. I have been speaking with Midnite about >>> allowing the inverter to charge to 100% for this, but I think they are >>> waiting for more field feedback before making a change. I have suggested >>> that they set a timer that will go to 80% normally, but 1-2 times a week >>> it'll take the lead battery to 100%... As you know, this isn't a problem >>> with LFP or Li-ion... only going to 80% on lead all the time is going to >>> result in severe capacity losses. >>> >>> With Sol Ark, you should contact them and obtain a firmware upgrade that >>> they have developed for the lead batteries. This will enable you to >>> control the end amp's time. You should also disable their battery >>> resistance settings, as these can raise voltage and current when the >>> battery's internal resistance is too high. This could cause damage to your >>> sealed batteries, as temperature compensation is not considered. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager >>> t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 >>> f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only >>> for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or >>> privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of >>> or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is >>> prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender >>> and delete or destroy this message and all copies. >>> ------------------------------ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot_20250514_182139_MidNite Pro.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 357427 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed May 14 21:21:58 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 01:21:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 inverter noise In-Reply-To: <000d01dbc4f1$3b33e220$b19ba660$@OasisMontana.com> References: <7DBBF139-D8AE-44AF-B74B-56985A2EAB5A@mavericksolar.com> <000d01dbc4f1$3b33e220$b19ba660$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: The fan on the 6000XP is quite loud. You can program this. Using the poral maintenance / advanced settings / then other settings near the bottom. You can adjust the slope, and the max speed. It seems to me the default speed slope is way too eager to get that fan roaring. But I have not yet played with this. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Daum via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2025 9:57 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Cc: chris at OasisMontana.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 inverter noise Just as an aside, is anyone else having major noise problems with the EG4 inverters? We’ve only sold one and its output is – seriously -- 90 decibels. My customer is rather deaf but his wife is not and it’s driving her/them nuts. I am rather reluctant to sell another unless they have a separate power shed or the like. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2025 10:18 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Maverick Brown > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In the case of extra redundancy, I have installed the EG4 Chargeverter and a 30A L14-30 Inlet and made the customer a suitable length L14-30 Extension Cord that they can use with their manual start secondary / tertiary portable generator just in case the primary generator has failed to start. The Chargeverter is quite small and can handle about 5kW of charge just in case… The charge voltage is programmable as is the current. It is inverter and battery agnostic. The Chargeverter used to be inexpensive compared to what it does. The last time I checked it is over $700 and also always seems to be on backorder. Still worth it. The Chargeverter has two wire start and can start based on voltage and SOC (if that is where the batteries are communicating / not that useful for most cases). If the Chargeverter is the primary generator AC to DC Charger, all AIO inverters could benefit from DC Generator = Y / N setting. Reference : Available setting on XW and Outback. For that matter, I am sure there are other suitable chargers that can be added as an emergency spare. Ten years ago or more, I added an IOTA charger to 24V FX inverter so the customer could use their Honda 2000 to charge the battery without the warbling electricity going into the house because FX sans PF correction… Remember those fun days? Grid > Inverter / Battery / Solar >> Generator >>> Generator >>>> Candles [cid:image001.jpg at 01DBC4FD.137A8C50] Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On May 14, 2025, at 8:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able to charge the battery without user intervention. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Jason, Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with that yet. Cheers, Dave On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming back. Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:  So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson) Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the inverter back on automatically. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work in my limited experience. Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the battery manually is no easy task. Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong about how this works? Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 78813 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 14 21:35:11 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 18:35:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 inverter noise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed May 14 21:54:39 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 01:54:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Praise Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Really great information sharing on the AIO's! My experience in the off-grid world, EG4 products & support has been excellent. Started using them last fall, 12 installs done with the 300, 600XP, 12000XP, 18kPV units so far. They all just worked out of the box. All paired with new EG4 batteries, and I really see no reason to cross brand, as it's a pretty elegant solution, full monitoring of everything in one portal. The EG4 monitoring portal is slick and very well designed and easy to use for all installer / client. There is a new generator control app being developed that will solve complaints about the factory AGS which is extremely basic. Concerned about failures? Buy a second unit to keep on hand. It's still lower cost than doing an XW or Radian config. A wise person on this list I can't recall said something like 'the winner in the AIO inverter competition will be from customer service" I had a few tech support questions mostly my learning curve. My calls were answered and the solution solved in a matter of minutes. I was gobsmaked at the idea of being able to immediately reach someone at tech support, who actually knew the product, didn't bog me down in a bunch of paperwork BS, just dove in and solved the problem. Comparing to the past 5 years of product quality going rapidly downhill, this is just such a relief. We saw 75% failure rates on Schneider gear. It all had to be tested in the shop before deploying. And then the days long nonsense of trying to reach 'tech' support. Then Magnum quality tanked & shut down. Then Outback vanished (ironically, same guy who owns EG4 bought OB). One by one all letting us down giving us poor quality hardware, and we as the interface to the client, had to deal with the fallout. It was incredibly costly for us. So I am hopeful of this new trend of hardware that just works and can spend more time installing less time repairing & replacing new units. Kevin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu May 15 06:06:19 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 06:06:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Praise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was highly against EG4 early on with their direct-to-consumer model, DIY focus, and support model. But I have to admit that the handful of installations of 18kPV and Wallmount batteries that I have done have gone exceptionally well. I still get nervous about needing customer service to update some settings remotely and some features not being available without firmware updates, but overall, like Kevin wrote, they just work. I am contemplating trying the Flexboss/Gridboss setup for on-grid jobs. EG4 is doing something right. They can't be ignored. And their customer service is going in the complete opposite direction from Sol-Ark. I feel these days that the Sol-Ark tech support agents have disdain for installers who dare to call and demand replacement of faulty components, and they have no answers for when back-ordered parts will arrive (when they should replace the whole inverter if they can't supply a repair part). If anyone watches the YouTube videos with EG4's Showalter, you will see that they are definitely targeting professional installers now and listening to feedback. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 9:55 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > > > Really great information sharing on the AIO’s! > > > > My experience in the off-grid world, EG4 products & support has been > excellent. Started using them last fall, 12 installs done with the 300, > 600XP, 12000XP, 18kPV units so far. They all just worked out of the box. > All paired with new EG4 batteries, and I really see no reason to cross > brand, as it’s a pretty elegant solution, full monitoring of everything in > one portal. The EG4 monitoring portal is slick and very well designed and > easy to use for all installer / client. There is a new generator control > app being developed that will solve complaints about the factory AGS which > is extremely basic. Concerned about failures? Buy a second unit to keep on > hand. It’s still lower cost than doing an XW or Radian config. > > > > A wise person on this list I can’t recall said something like ‘the winner > in the AIO inverter competition will be from customer service” > > > > I had a few tech support questions mostly my learning curve. My calls were > answered and the solution solved in a matter of minutes. I was gobsmaked at > the idea of being able to immediately reach someone at tech support, who > actually knew the product, didn’t bog me down in a bunch of paperwork BS, > just dove in and solved the problem. > > > > Comparing to the past 5 years of product quality going rapidly downhill, > this is just such a relief. We saw 75% failure rates on Schneider gear. It > all had to be tested in the shop before deploying. And then the days long > nonsense of trying to reach ‘tech’ support. Then Magnum quality tanked & > shut down. Then Outback vanished (ironically, same guy who owns EG4 bought > OB). One by one all letting us down giving us poor quality hardware, and we > as the interface to the client, had to deal with the fallout. It was > incredibly costly for us. > > > > So I am hopeful of this new trend of hardware that just works and can > spend more time installing less time repairing & replacing new units. > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Thu May 15 09:14:41 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 08:14:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Praise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu May 15 11:37:53 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 11:37:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO Message-ID: I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It was surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I had hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three inverters' instant and historical data while providing real time individual inverter data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per inverter, but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me off list. The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from Amazon. I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly to my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Thu May 15 12:20:45 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 12:20:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will remove the chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of your inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation from others. With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer locally. On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It was > surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I had > hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three inverters' > instant and historical data while providing real time individual inverter > data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per inverter, > but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little > usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. > > If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me off > list. > > The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device > directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from Amazon. > I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly to > my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Thu May 15 12:50:38 2025 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 09:50:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does the Solar Assistant work with Outback gear? Kirpal On Thu, May 15, 2025, 9:21 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will remove the > chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of your > inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation from > others. > > With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer locally. > > On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. > > On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It was >> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I had >> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three inverters' >> instant and historical data while providing real time individual inverter >> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per inverter, >> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >> >> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me off >> list. >> >> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from Amazon. >> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly to >> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu May 15 18:58:08 2025 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 22:58:08 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extending cable length for MNGP Message-ID: Wrenches Has anyone relocated the MNGP (midnite graphics panel) over 150ft with success? It’s ran via Cat5 cable. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From brett at oregonsunwrangler.com Fri May 16 00:47:11 2025 From: brett at oregonsunwrangler.com (Brett Stigile) Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 21:47:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO Message-ID: <39BB798C-6DF6-4407-9EFC-D742D1EC5CC9@oregonsunwrangler.com> Overall I like Solar Assistant as well. Be aware it is not cloud based. Sure it stores locally on the Pi, that’s great. But, if the internet is down you are blind. Not supper helpful for remote sites if you can’t look through the data a see if there was a potential issue or if the internet is just down. Brett Stigile Owner/Renewable Energy Electrician 503-317-7950 brett at oregonsunwrangler.com Oregon Sun Wrangler LLC CCB: 240661 License No: 66LRT NABCEP PV Installation Professional Certification #PV 100414-008123 > On May 15, 2025, at 1:05 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: > > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > > > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the exact original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: EG4 Praise (Maverick Brown) > 2. Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Jason Szumlanski) > 3. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (William Bryce) > 4. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Kirpal Khalsa) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 08:14:41 -0500 > From: Maverick Brown > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Praise > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 11:37:53 -0400 > From: Jason Szumlanski > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It was > surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I had > hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three inverters' > instant and historical data while providing real time individual inverter > data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per inverter, > but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little > usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. > > If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me off > list. > > The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device > directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from Amazon. > I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly to > my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 12:20:45 -0400 > From: William Bryce > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will remove the > chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of your > inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation from > others. > > With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer locally. > > On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. > >> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It was >> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I had >> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three inverters' >> instant and historical data while providing real time individual inverter >> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per inverter, >> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >> >> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me off >> list. >> >> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from Amazon. >> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly to >> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 09:50:38 -0700 > From: Kirpal Khalsa > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Does the Solar Assistant work with Outback gear? > > Kirpal > > On Thu, May 15, 2025, 9:21?AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will remove the >> chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of your >> inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation from >> others. >> >> With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer locally. >> >> On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. >> >> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It was >>> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I had >>> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three inverters' >>> instant and historical data while providing real time individual inverter >>> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per inverter, >>> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>> >>> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me off >>> list. >>> >>> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >>> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from Amazon. >>> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly to >>> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >>> other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 18, Issue 182 > ******************************************** From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri May 16 03:56:10 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 16 May 2025 03:56:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: <39BB798C-6DF6-4407-9EFC-D742D1EC5CC9@oregonsunwrangler.com> References: <39BB798C-6DF6-4407-9EFC-D742D1EC5CC9@oregonsunwrangler.com> Message-ID: But the upside is it doesn't rely on the cloud, so historical data is stored locally, even in the event of a system shutdown (if you power the Pi device from the battery DC bus). That doesn't do much good if the battery BMS turns off, of course, but it's nice to continue logging data even if there is no Internet connection. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, May 16, 2025, 12:48 AM Brett Stigile via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Overall I like Solar Assistant as well. Be aware it is not cloud based. > Sure it stores locally on the Pi, that’s great. But, if the internet is > down you are blind. Not supper helpful for remote sites if you can’t look > through the data a see if there was a potential issue or if the internet is > just down. > > > Brett Stigile > Owner/Renewable Energy Electrician > 503-317-7950 > brett at oregonsunwrangler.com > > Oregon Sun Wrangler LLC > CCB: 240661 > License No: 66LRT > NABCEP PV Installation Professional Certification > #PV 100414-008123 > > > On May 15, 2025, at 1:05 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > wrote: > > > > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > > > > > > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the > Subject: line to the exact original, and please edit out any extraneous > lines from the quoted message. > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: EG4 Praise (Maverick Brown) > > 2. Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Jason Szumlanski) > > 3. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (William Bryce) > > 4. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Kirpal Khalsa) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 08:14:41 -0500 > > From: Maverick Brown > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Praise > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250515/1d46c98a/attachment-0001.htm > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 11:37:53 -0400 > > From: Jason Szumlanski > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It was > > surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I had > > hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three inverters' > > instant and historical data while providing real time individual inverter > > data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per inverter, > > but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little > > usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. > > > > If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me off > > list. > > > > The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device > > directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from > Amazon. > > I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly to > > my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250515/b8d7966f/attachment-0001.htm > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 12:20:45 -0400 > > From: William Bryce > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will remove > the > > chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of your > > inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation from > > others. > > > > With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer locally. > > > > On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. > > > >> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> > >> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It > was > >> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I had > >> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three inverters' > >> instant and historical data while providing real time individual > inverter > >> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per > inverter, > >> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little > >> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. > >> > >> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me > off > >> list. > >> > >> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device > >> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from > Amazon. > >> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly > to > >> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. > >> > >> Jason Szumlanski > >> Florida Solar Design Group > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the > >> other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250515/610bc1b7/attachment-0001.htm > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 09:50:38 -0700 > > From: Kirpal Khalsa > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Does the Solar Assistant work with Outback gear? > > > > Kirpal > > > > On Thu, May 15, 2025, 9:21?AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > >> I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will remove > the > >> chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of your > >> inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation > from > >> others. > >> > >> With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer locally. > >> > >> On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. > >> > >> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> > >>> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It > was > >>> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I > had > >>> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three > inverters' > >>> instant and historical data while providing real time individual > inverter > >>> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per > inverter, > >>> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little > >>> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. > >>> > >>> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me > off > >>> list. > >>> > >>> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device > >>> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from > Amazon. > >>> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly > to > >>> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. > >>> > >>> Jason Szumlanski > >>> Florida Solar Design Group > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> > >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the > >>> other: > >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the > >> other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250515/9dddf115/attachment-0001.htm > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Subject: Digest Footer > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 18, Issue 182 > > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Thu May 15 10:24:10 2025 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 10:24:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String fuse blown In-Reply-To: <57435198-81AF-4C8A-A4D2-004998949163@gmail.com> References: <5E30B5B8-C3F0-4EEA-8DAA-99D10497DB84@gmail.com> <9B8F0F0B-60BB-4EF0-92A5-1AF9BBF34F55@gmail.com> <57435198-81AF-4C8A-A4D2-004998949163@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7E874886-200D-4EB8-BF18-CA7414B0F989@gmail.com> Hey all, To close the loop on this, I doesn’t look like its a “Power Save” setting as those are available on Grid-Tied FX’s. I went yesterday and confirmed that just Inverter #2 is pushing power when grid-tied ( 21A at 120V is what I tested at the time), however both start inverting (indicated by green LED) when grid-goes down. But it seems to be functioning like the Power Save modes and shutting down Inverter #1 when grid-tied. My best guess is since the array is only 4.2KW and a shallow roof and never really hitting that 4.2KW peak (2.0-3.0KW typical on a sunny day), it’s only running the power through 1 of the inverters because it only needs to run 1. There are no errors, or warnings on Inverter 1, and what’s weird is even when I switch the inverter ports on the Hub (swap 1 and 2), Inverter 2 is still the only one that’s inverting typically. The exception was when I was testing I shut off grid power for a few minutes to test the backup function, during which the batteries did an absorb charge. When I reconnected the grid the inverters started to sell some of that battery power(for a minute), along with the PV, down to the sell voltage. Then once the voltage leveled out, inverter #1 went to sleep again. If this was Myth Busters I would say “Plausible” because I’m not really sure… :) Thanks for your brains! Amos Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook > On May 12, 2025, at 12:53 PM, Amos Post wrote: > > Oh I forgot to mention the inverters are side x side on 2 individual Panels…. > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > >> On May 12, 2025, at 12:48 PM, jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> good point. >> For GT OB systems I have removed the side screens for better air flow and I’ve also taken the covers off and used external fans to cool them. >> >> They just were not designed to run anywhere near rated capacity for long periods of time, they don’t have enough air cooling. >> >>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:41 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>> Is inverter 2 on top? The top inverter in an Outback dual stack always runs hotter, because the heat from the bottom inverter is adding to its own heat. I used to see that consistently cause board failures on the top inverter more often, if the whole system was running close to capacity. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> >>> On 5/12/2025 7:56 AM, Amos Post via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> UPDATE: >>>> >>>> So far so good and since replacing the fuse holder, fuse #3 has not blown again. >>>> >>>> ANOTHER ISSUE: >>>> >>>> Inverter 2 runs hotter than inverter 1. Reminder this is grid-tied system with 2-GVFX3648’s in series for 120/240V. The fan on inverter #2 had malfunctioned, but I was able to replace it and get that going again. Even with the replaced fan, inverter #2 is still running noticeably hotter. My understanding is that both inverters in this system are essentially “Masters”, since this is grid-tied. Shouldn’t the load/generation be split between the two and hence they run equally as hot? I did check the stacking and they were both set to “Master” which is I think what they recommended for grid-tie. I tried switching the ports on the Hub that they are plugged into to see if that would change anything, but no change. I did also noticed while I was there last week that while both inverters had the solid yellow “AC IN” light on, inverter #2’s green “Inverter” light was always on, while inverter #1’s green “Inverter” seemed to come and go… >>>> >>>> Any ideas? >>>> >>>> Thanks as always, >>>> Amos >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Amos Post >>>> Integrity Energy >>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>> ienergyVT.com >>>> Facebook >>>> >>>>> On Apr 15, 2025, at 8:40 AM, Amos Post > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I decided to start with the simple stuff. While I don’t have a string curve tester (I should have one), yesterday I tested strings 1,2,3 individually under load. String 3 is the one that’s been blowing the fuse. I did not test strings 4-6 which are on a separate charge controller and combiner. Here are the results: >>>>> >>>>> String 1- 7.1A at 76V >>>>> String 2- 7.77Aat 79V >>>>> String 3-7.13A at 78.3V >>>>> >>>>> I did notice that the second charge controller with strings 4-6 was running about 100watts more (1800w vs 1700w). The conditions were clear blue skies. I replaced the fuse holder and fuse. If it blows again I’ll try switching strings to see if it follows… >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your feedback and I’ll keep ya’ll posted. >>>>> >>>>> Amos >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Amos Post >>>>> Integrity Energy >>>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>>> ienergyVT.com >>>>> Facebook >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 11, 2025, at 4:07 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Wrenches, Amos, blowing of a 15 amp fuse is not a ghost in the machine, it is an actual issue no way around it, shorted modules, shorted diodes, in most cases it's a home run, way back when USE-2 white wure was failing and would crack and break off mostly this would result in a GFI trip. The fuse is blowing because of over current and a single string of your vintage will max out at far less than 10 amps but the other two strings will back feed this fuse with close to 20 then pop. >>>>>> Sharp had module failures resulting in cell shorts, look very close there. I have inspected arrays with extreme exposure differences, this will effect performance but should not pop a fuse. Do you have a module string curve tester, this very well may show an issue of the string but eyes on the array is required to located the cause. >>>>>> I have seen nails through wires, conduit, racking in contact with the back of the module but this will trip the GFI breaker not the string fuse. >>>>>> Fun times. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025, 12:49 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> One time I had similar, but different problem: 1 Amp ground fault fuse consistently blowing, sometimes after 1 day sometimes after weeks/months. I tried everything - replaced home runs, checked VOC, VMP, swapped DC input into a different inverter, etc. it kept coming back to this one string. I checked every module VOC, ISC, every connection, no pinched wires, no discernible problem, but fuse blowing. >>>>>> Luckily it was a medium size commercial job (on a fire station) so I was able to scatter all the modules of this suspect string all over the roof, and carefully track where I had put them. That’s when the problem went away and never came back..😂 >>>>>> Best I could figure was a slight manufacturing error that had a compounding/cumulative effect. So once I got those consecutive serial numbers away from each other no more problem. Either that or the fire chief was fucking with me and he was burning out the fuses, which I doubt >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:05 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> Hello Amos, >>>>>> >>>>>> Have you checked for voltage imbalance for each string? If you have a bad diode, that string may run low on voltage and be trying to send current toward the weak string (this is the reason you have these breakers). I'd run each string independently and see what Vmp is. If you are missing some voltage that may be a clue. You can also independently clamp each string during operation. >>>>>> >>>>>> I like IR cameras for this type of thing. It may just be a bad connection, heat build up, fuse holder issue. >>>>>> >>>>>> Let us know what you find out >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:07 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>>>> >>>>>> I have a bit of a puzzler that I’m trying to get sorted out. I’ve been servicing a Grid-Tied Battery Backup system that’s about 17-18 years old. The system comprises of 2-GVFX3648s in series, with 2-MX60(at least I think they are 60s) CC’s. Each CC has 3 strings of 3 tied to it, and each string has a 15A in-line 600V fuse. The modules are I believe are like 230/240Watt 60 cell modules (sorry I don’t have pictures/specifics). We replaced the flooded batteries with AGMs about a year and a half ago. >>>>>> >>>>>> The situation is one of the 15A string fuses keeps blowing. It’s now happened 3 times and its the same fuse every time. First we just replaced the fuse and under the surge/lightning assumption. Fuse blew again. Then I thought I found the culprit. The #6 PV output from the combiner to the PV input breaker for the CC was a bit darkened and very warm to the touch when I replaced the fuse the first time. So I though maybe it was a loose connection on that lug and that caused everything to heat up and eventually blow the fuse. I cut and stripped the wire back and cleaned the lug and re-seated the wire in the lug. Fuse blew again within a few months time. I then checked the Junction box on the roof where the USE-2 wire connects to THHN, and did a visual inspection of all the wiring on the roof. All of the Jbox connections and everything on the roof “looked” ok. I have also check all of the connections inside the Outback DC load center, and they look ok. Fuse replaced 3rd time and then it blew again. >>>>>> >>>>>> Before I take all of the panels off the rack, check panels, re-check string wiring on the roof, is there anything else I should be checking? Seems like that warm wire in the Combiner box is telling me something but I can’t figure out what...I believe this is a new problem in the last 2-3 years but we are not 100% sure when the problem first came up… >>>>>> >>>>>> As always, thanks for your help/ suggestions! >>>>>> Amos >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Amos Post >>>>>> Integrity Energy >>>>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>>>> ienergyVT.com >>>>>> Facebook >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mac Lewis >>>>>> >>>>>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Fri May 16 06:24:00 2025 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Fri, 16 May 2025 10:24:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String fuse blown In-Reply-To: <7E874886-200D-4EB8-BF18-CA7414B0F989@gmail.com> References: <5E30B5B8-C3F0-4EEA-8DAA-99D10497DB84@gmail.com> <9B8F0F0B-60BB-4EF0-92A5-1AF9BBF34F55@gmail.com> <57435198-81AF-4C8A-A4D2-004998949163@gmail.com> <7E874886-200D-4EB8-BF18-CA7414B0F989@gmail.com> Message-ID: I kinda remember running into something like this a few years ago.. Turned out it was the Flexnet DC throwing curve balls to the system.. Flexnet does not play nice with LiFePo4. db ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Amos Post via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2025 10:24 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Amos Post Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] String fuse blown Hey all, To close the loop on this, I doesn’t look like its a “Power Save” setting as those are available on Grid-Tied FX’s. I went yesterday and confirmed that just Inverter #2 is pushing power when grid-tied ( 21A at 120V is what I tested at the time), however both start inverting (indicated by green LED) when grid-goes down. But it seems to be functioning like the Power Save modes and shutting down Inverter #1 when grid-tied. My best guess is since the array is only 4.2KW and a shallow roof and never really hitting that 4.2KW peak (2.0-3.0KW typical on a sunny day), it’s only running the power through 1 of the inverters because it only needs to run 1. There are no errors, or warnings on Inverter 1, and what’s weird is even when I switch the inverter ports on the Hub (swap 1 and 2), Inverter 2 is still the only one that’s inverting typically. The exception was when I was testing I shut off grid power for a few minutes to test the backup function, during which the batteries did an absorb charge. When I reconnected the grid the inverters started to sell some of that battery power(for a minute), along with the PV, down to the sell voltage. Then once the voltage leveled out, inverter #1 went to sleep again. If this was Myth Busters I would say “Plausible” because I’m not really sure… :) Thanks for your brains! Amos [cid:BB04EA26-2543-45F1-9D19-B078F743C9C6] Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook On May 12, 2025, at 12:53 PM, Amos Post > wrote: Oh I forgot to mention the inverters are side x side on 2 individual Panels…. Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook On May 12, 2025, at 12:48 PM, jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: good point. For GT OB systems I have removed the side screens for better air flow and I’ve also taken the covers off and used external fans to cool them. They just were not designed to run anywhere near rated capacity for long periods of time, they don’t have enough air cooling. On May 12, 2025, at 10:41 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: Is inverter 2 on top? The top inverter in an Outback dual stack always runs hotter, because the heat from the bottom inverter is adding to its own heat. I used to see that consistently cause board failures on the top inverter more often, if the whole system was running close to capacity. Ray Walters On 5/12/2025 7:56 AM, Amos Post via RE-wrenches wrote: UPDATE: So far so good and since replacing the fuse holder, fuse #3 has not blown again. ANOTHER ISSUE: Inverter 2 runs hotter than inverter 1. Reminder this is grid-tied system with 2-GVFX3648’s in series for 120/240V. The fan on inverter #2 had malfunctioned, but I was able to replace it and get that going again. Even with the replaced fan, inverter #2 is still running noticeably hotter. My understanding is that both inverters in this system are essentially “Masters”, since this is grid-tied. Shouldn’t the load/generation be split between the two and hence they run equally as hot? I did check the stacking and they were both set to “Master” which is I think what they recommended for grid-tie. I tried switching the ports on the Hub that they are plugged into to see if that would change anything, but no change. I did also noticed while I was there last week that while both inverters had the solid yellow “AC IN” light on, inverter #2’s green “Inverter” light was always on, while inverter #1’s green “Inverter” seemed to come and go… Any ideas? Thanks as always, Amos Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook On Apr 15, 2025, at 8:40 AM, Amos Post > wrote: Hi all, I decided to start with the simple stuff. While I don’t have a string curve tester (I should have one), yesterday I tested strings 1,2,3 individually under load. String 3 is the one that’s been blowing the fuse. I did not test strings 4-6 which are on a separate charge controller and combiner. Here are the results: String 1- 7.1A at 76V String 2- 7.77Aat 79V String 3-7.13A at 78.3V I did notice that the second charge controller with strings 4-6 was running about 100watts more (1800w vs 1700w). The conditions were clear blue skies. I replaced the fuse holder and fuse. If it blows again I’ll try switching strings to see if it follows… Thanks for your feedback and I’ll keep ya’ll posted. Amos Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook On Apr 11, 2025, at 4:07 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: Wrenches, Amos, blowing of a 15 amp fuse is not a ghost in the machine, it is an actual issue no way around it, shorted modules, shorted diodes, in most cases it's a home run, way back when USE-2 white wure was failing and would crack and break off mostly this would result in a GFI trip. The fuse is blowing because of over current and a single string of your vintage will max out at far less than 10 amps but the other two strings will back feed this fuse with close to 20 then pop. Sharp had module failures resulting in cell shorts, look very close there. I have inspected arrays with extreme exposure differences, this will effect performance but should not pop a fuse. Do you have a module string curve tester, this very well may show an issue of the string but eyes on the array is required to located the cause. I have seen nails through wires, conduit, racking in contact with the back of the module but this will trip the GFI breaker not the string fuse. Fun times. On Fri, Apr 11, 2025, 12:49 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: One time I had similar, but different problem: 1 Amp ground fault fuse consistently blowing, sometimes after 1 day sometimes after weeks/months. I tried everything - replaced home runs, checked VOC, VMP, swapped DC input into a different inverter, etc. it kept coming back to this one string. I checked every module VOC, ISC, every connection, no pinched wires, no discernible problem, but fuse blowing. Luckily it was a medium size commercial job (on a fire station) so I was able to scatter all the modules of this suspect string all over the roof, and carefully track where I had put them. That’s when the problem went away and never came back..😂 Best I could figure was a slight manufacturing error that had a compounding/cumulative effect. So once I got those consecutive serial numbers away from each other no more problem. Either that or the fire chief was fucking with me and he was burning out the fuses, which I doubt On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:05 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hello Amos, Have you checked for voltage imbalance for each string? If you have a bad diode, that string may run low on voltage and be trying to send current toward the weak string (this is the reason you have these breakers). I'd run each string independently and see what Vmp is. If you are missing some voltage that may be a clue. You can also independently clamp each string during operation. I like IR cameras for this type of thing. It may just be a bad connection, heat build up, fuse holder issue. Let us know what you find out On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 8:07 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Wrenches, I have a bit of a puzzler that I’m trying to get sorted out. I’ve been servicing a Grid-Tied Battery Backup system that’s about 17-18 years old. The system comprises of 2-GVFX3648s in series, with 2-MX60(at least I think they are 60s) CC’s. Each CC has 3 strings of 3 tied to it, and each string has a 15A in-line 600V fuse. The modules are I believe are like 230/240Watt 60 cell modules (sorry I don’t have pictures/specifics). We replaced the flooded batteries with AGMs about a year and a half ago. The situation is one of the 15A string fuses keeps blowing. It’s now happened 3 times and its the same fuse every time. First we just replaced the fuse and under the surge/lightning assumption. Fuse blew again. Then I thought I found the culprit. The #6 PV output from the combiner to the PV input breaker for the CC was a bit darkened and very warm to the touch when I replaced the fuse the first time. So I though maybe it was a loose connection on that lug and that caused everything to heat up and eventually blow the fuse. I cut and stripped the wire back and cleaned the lug and re-seated the wire in the lug. Fuse blew again within a few months time. I then checked the Junction box on the roof where the USE-2 wire connects to THHN, and did a visual inspection of all the wiring on the roof. All of the Jbox connections and everything on the roof “looked” ok. I have also check all of the connections inside the Outback DC load center, and they look ok. Fuse replaced 3rd time and then it blew again. Before I take all of the panels off the rack, check panels, re-check string wiring on the roof, is there anything else I should be checking? Seems like that warm wire in the Combiner box is telling me something but I can’t figure out what...I believe this is a new problem in the last 2-3 years but we are not 100% sure when the problem first came up… As always, thanks for your help/ suggestions! Amos Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri May 16 09:51:58 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 16 May 2025 06:51:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri May 16 19:22:06 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 16 May 2025 19:22:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Inter-Battery Communication Message-ID: The advantages of closed loop communication between LFP batteries and inverter systems are pretty obvious. But when you are operating in an open loop because you are working with a legacy inverter that does not support battery communication, how important is it for batteries to be wired together? I started contemplating this today when I ran into a Pytes stack of 20 E-Box 48100R (5kWh) batteries. Whoever installed them wired all 20 in a single communication daisy chain. Come to find out, this version of the battery only supports 8 or 16 in a communications network. The bank is connected to a couple of XW+ inverters, so it is operating based on voltage. The owner must have had to use an unconventional method to turn the batteries on, because typically you would only press the switch on the master battery. In this case, that doesn't work because the communication chain is broken at some point. The reason for my visit was the battery is sitting at 43 volts because the generator didn't start and the low battery disconnect was set to 44 volts, well below the 49 volts recommended by Pytes. Side note: I could not set the low battery cut out higher than 48V with these inverters. I was there to get these jump started with a Chargeverter. I rigged it up and got things going, but various batteries were alarming out. Ultimately I just disconnected the communication cables on all the batteries and they all started charging from the Chargeverter which was connected to the common bus. Awesome! So back to the original question... Are the batteries really doing anything in terms of balancing when they are connected in a communications daisy chain when they are not enclosed loop communications with an inverter? How important is the communication anyway? And in this case, assuming that the maximum batteries in a communication chain is eight, I would probably be better off setting up four separate communications with four master batteries in groups of five. Again, I'm not sure how important that is in terms of balancing. What if I had different quantities per communication group? They're not talking to each other anyway! Not to muddy up this thread, but I will say that the Chargeverter saved the day. Within 20 minutes, I was able to get the inverters turned on and the SCP to help me identify what went wrong. Then I turned on the inverters and got them charging the batteries simultaneously with the Chargeverter and solar. It really just needed a jump start! I had rigged it up in a way that I could easily do this and then safely disconnect the Chargeverter while the rest of the system continued to charge the batteries. It was my first experience with this little gem, and I'm happy to have it in my toolbox now. Tomorrow I am going back to restart the charging process and hopefully get the batteries up to 100%. I also plan to check the firmware, which I am almost positive is mismatched in this stack of batteries. All of my off-grid systems are a boat ride away, so I'm going to pretend it's a weekend and I'm not working. Haha. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat May 17 10:49:58 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 17 May 2025 09:49:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Inter-Battery Communication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, I think it is valuable to have SOC information available if you also have an InsightHome device that can show the SOC data for reference etc. For legacy inverters, voltage still makes the decisions. I don’t know of any battery that communicates together to balance between individual battery entities. That still leaves the necessity to charge via voltage high enough to get all batteries to high and similar SOC. The E-BOX says via Pylontech protocol that its battery voltage range is 46.5V to 56.8V, so I think 48V LBCO is fine and certainly 44 is too low. There is a “.8” version of battery firmware and a “.16” version. I can send you the .16 version that I have (SPBMS16SRP2205V1.5.18.C16). I use HyperTerminal to install the software and it is the absolute easiest battery to view the details using the Pytes USB to Serial cable (other cable brands could also work). HyperTerminal was provided free by Pytes. I can send you that as well. A lot of this might still be on their website. I lieu of having a Pytes Hub to stack the existing bank as multiple groups of 10 batteries, you could upgrade each battery to .16 firmware and make two communicating stacks of 10 that don’t communicate together. If you have InsightHome, you can wire the CAN port of the left 10 to Insight and the RS485 port of the right stack to Inight and make “two battery banks” show up in Insight. On the Pytes, the CAN RJ45 Blue pair is CAN and the Orange Pair is RS485 (from the RS485 port). If you have InsightFacity you can use both CAN ports. CAN devices show up automatically and RS485 device need to be setup via InsightLocal / Setup / Device Detection / Detect Device / RS-485: 1 to 10. On the Charge Controllers, I would set Absorb to 55.2 for 3 hours. I even started using EQ at 56.0 on some systems. Good luck today! Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On May 16, 2025, at 6:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > The advantages of closed loop communication between LFP batteries and inverter systems are pretty obvious. But when you are operating in an open loop because you are working with a legacy inverter that does not support battery communication, how important is it for batteries to be wired together? > > I started contemplating this today when I ran into a Pytes stack of 20 E-Box 48100R (5kWh) batteries. Whoever installed them wired all 20 in a single communication daisy chain. Come to find out, this version of the battery only supports 8 or 16 in a communications network. The bank is connected to a couple of XW+ inverters, so it is operating based on voltage. The owner must have had to use an unconventional method to turn the batteries on, because typically you would only press the switch on the master battery. In this case, that doesn't work because the communication chain is broken at some point. > > The reason for my visit was the battery is sitting at 43 volts because the generator didn't start and the low battery disconnect was set to 44 volts, well below the 49 volts recommended by Pytes. Side note: I could not set the low battery cut out higher than 48V with these inverters. > > I was there to get these jump started with a Chargeverter. I rigged it up and got things going, but various batteries were alarming out. Ultimately I just disconnected the communication cables on all the batteries and they all started charging from the Chargeverter which was connected to the common bus. Awesome! > > So back to the original question... Are the batteries really doing anything in terms of balancing when they are connected in a communications daisy chain when they are not enclosed loop communications with an inverter? How important is the communication anyway? And in this case, assuming that the maximum batteries in a communication chain is eight, I would probably be better off setting up four separate communications with four master batteries in groups of five. Again, I'm not sure how important that is in terms of balancing. What if I had different quantities per communication group? They're not talking to each other anyway! > > Not to muddy up this thread, but I will say that the Chargeverter saved the day. Within 20 minutes, I was able to get the inverters turned on and the SCP to help me identify what went wrong. Then I turned on the inverters and got them charging the batteries simultaneously with the Chargeverter and solar. It really just needed a jump start! I had rigged it up in a way that I could easily do this and then safely disconnect the Chargeverter while the rest of the system continued to charge the batteries. It was my first experience with this little gem, and I'm happy to have it in my toolbox now. > > Tomorrow I am going back to restart the charging process and hopefully get the batteries up to 100%. I also plan to check the firmware, which I am almost positive is mismatched in this stack of batteries. All of my off-grid systems are a boat ride away, so I'm going to pretend it's a weekend and I'm not working. Haha. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat May 17 11:21:29 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 17 May 2025 08:21:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Inter-Battery Communication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi maverick Can you explain the logic of 55v for 3 hrs? Thx Jay > On May 17, 2025, at 7:50 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jason, > > I think it is valuable to have SOC information available if you also have an InsightHome device that can show the SOC data for reference etc. For legacy inverters, voltage still makes the decisions. > > I don’t know of any battery that communicates together to balance between individual battery entities. That still leaves the necessity to charge via voltage high enough to get all batteries to high and similar SOC. > > The E-BOX says via Pylontech protocol that its battery voltage range is 46.5V to 56.8V, so I think 48V LBCO is fine and certainly 44 is too low. > > There is a “.8” version of battery firmware and a “.16” version. I can send you the .16 version that I have (SPBMS16SRP2205V1.5.18.C16). I use HyperTerminal to install the software and it is the absolute easiest battery to view the details using the Pytes USB to Serial cable (other cable brands could also work). HyperTerminal was provided free by Pytes. I can send you that as well. A lot of this might still be on their website. > > I lieu of having a Pytes Hub to stack the existing bank as multiple groups of 10 batteries, you could upgrade each battery to .16 firmware and make two communicating stacks of 10 that don’t communicate together. If you have InsightHome, you can wire the CAN port of the left 10 to Insight and the RS485 port of the right stack to Inight and make “two battery banks” show up in Insight. On the Pytes, the CAN RJ45 Blue pair is CAN and the Orange Pair is RS485 (from the RS485 port). If you have InsightFacity you can use both CAN ports. CAN devices show up automatically and RS485 device need to be setup via InsightLocal / Setup / Device Detection / Detect Device / RS-485: 1 to 10. > > On the Charge Controllers, I would set Absorb to 55.2 for 3 hours. > > I even started using EQ at 56.0 on some systems. > > Good luck today! > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > >> On May 16, 2025, at 6:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> The advantages of closed loop communication between LFP batteries and inverter systems are pretty obvious. But when you are operating in an open loop because you are working with a legacy inverter that does not support battery communication, how important is it for batteries to be wired together? >> >> I started contemplating this today when I ran into a Pytes stack of 20 E-Box 48100R (5kWh) batteries. Whoever installed them wired all 20 in a single communication daisy chain. Come to find out, this version of the battery only supports 8 or 16 in a communications network. The bank is connected to a couple of XW+ inverters, so it is operating based on voltage. The owner must have had to use an unconventional method to turn the batteries on, because typically you would only press the switch on the master battery. In this case, that doesn't work because the communication chain is broken at some point. >> >> The reason for my visit was the battery is sitting at 43 volts because the generator didn't start and the low battery disconnect was set to 44 volts, well below the 49 volts recommended by Pytes. Side note: I could not set the low battery cut out higher than 48V with these inverters. >> >> I was there to get these jump started with a Chargeverter. I rigged it up and got things going, but various batteries were alarming out. Ultimately I just disconnected the communication cables on all the batteries and they all started charging from the Chargeverter which was connected to the common bus. Awesome! >> >> So back to the original question... Are the batteries really doing anything in terms of balancing when they are connected in a communications daisy chain when they are not enclosed loop communications with an inverter? How important is the communication anyway? And in this case, assuming that the maximum batteries in a communication chain is eight, I would probably be better off setting up four separate communications with four master batteries in groups of five. Again, I'm not sure how important that is in terms of balancing. What if I had different quantities per communication group? They're not talking to each other anyway! >> >> Not to muddy up this thread, but I will say that the Chargeverter saved the day. Within 20 minutes, I was able to get the inverters turned on and the SCP to help me identify what went wrong. Then I turned on the inverters and got them charging the batteries simultaneously with the Chargeverter and solar. It really just needed a jump start! I had rigged it up in a way that I could easily do this and then safely disconnect the Chargeverter while the rest of the system continued to charge the batteries. It was my first experience with this little gem, and I'm happy to have it in my toolbox now. >> >> Tomorrow I am going back to restart the charging process and hopefully get the batteries up to 100%. I also plan to check the firmware, which I am almost positive is mismatched in this stack of batteries. All of my off-grid systems are a boat ride away, so I'm going to pretend it's a weekend and I'm not working. Haha. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat May 17 11:51:19 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 17 May 2025 10:51:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Inter-Battery Communication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8DE7F2E7-D751-448D-BBDE-908703A7956F@mavericksolar.com> Jay, Over time I noticed that with lower voltage (say 54.4 [3.4vpc]) and little to no absorb was causing a wider gap in the SOC of individual batteries. I found that the solution was to charge to a higher voltage and to absorb longer that 5 minutes, etc. I could observe this spread of SOC on various Lithium battery brands and I started editing the settings to get back to a more Lead Acid style approach. It works. I was typing an even longer explanation… This video says it all: https://youtu.be/METijpjpKWE FAQ: Charging Cycle: what is absorption for, and is it needed? l Battle Born Batteries youtu.be I chose 3.45V per cell for all LiFePO4 batteries (so 55.2 for 16s batteries) and so far, all customers, all brands are fairly tight on the SOC range per battery. I have to be onsite to measure that, of course, but data looks good. I set the Absorb time long enough to give the individual battery entities time to internally balance and catch up on SOC. The higher SOC batteries will naturally taper their charge current. But, 55.2 is not high enough to trip a Charge Relay in any battery. As a side note, Fortress sells the Guardian and that lets you see the SOC of individual batteries from afar and then you an do something about SOC remotely. I wish I could hack the Guardian for other brands, I would install it everywhere. I wonder if Solar Assistant can see individual CAN connected batteries?? All Y’all, Let me know what you think and if you have any feedback. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On May 17, 2025, at 10:21 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi maverick > > Can you explain the logic of 55v for 3 hrs? > > Thx > Jay > > > > > > >> On May 17, 2025, at 7:50 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Jason, >> >> I think it is valuable to have SOC information available if you also have an InsightHome device that can show the SOC data for reference etc. For legacy inverters, voltage still makes the decisions. >> >> I don’t know of any battery that communicates together to balance between individual battery entities. That still leaves the necessity to charge via voltage high enough to get all batteries to high and similar SOC. >> >> The E-BOX says via Pylontech protocol that its battery voltage range is 46.5V to 56.8V, so I think 48V LBCO is fine and certainly 44 is too low. >> >> There is a “.8” version of battery firmware and a “.16” version. I can send you the .16 version that I have (SPBMS16SRP2205V1.5.18.C16). I use HyperTerminal to install the software and it is the absolute easiest battery to view the details using the Pytes USB to Serial cable (other cable brands could also work). HyperTerminal was provided free by Pytes. I can send you that as well. A lot of this might still be on their website. >> >> I lieu of having a Pytes Hub to stack the existing bank as multiple groups of 10 batteries, you could upgrade each battery to .16 firmware and make two communicating stacks of 10 that don’t communicate together. If you have InsightHome, you can wire the CAN port of the left 10 to Insight and the RS485 port of the right stack to Inight and make “two battery banks” show up in Insight. On the Pytes, the CAN RJ45 Blue pair is CAN and the Orange Pair is RS485 (from the RS485 port). If you have InsightFacity you can use both CAN ports. CAN devices show up automatically and RS485 device need to be setup via InsightLocal / Setup / Device Detection / Detect Device / RS-485: 1 to 10. >> >> On the Charge Controllers, I would set Absorb to 55.2 for 3 hours. >> >> I even started using EQ at 56.0 on some systems. >> >> Good luck today! >> >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >>> On May 16, 2025, at 6:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> The advantages of closed loop communication between LFP batteries and inverter systems are pretty obvious. But when you are operating in an open loop because you are working with a legacy inverter that does not support battery communication, how important is it for batteries to be wired together? >>> >>> I started contemplating this today when I ran into a Pytes stack of 20 E-Box 48100R (5kWh) batteries. Whoever installed them wired all 20 in a single communication daisy chain. Come to find out, this version of the battery only supports 8 or 16 in a communications network. The bank is connected to a couple of XW+ inverters, so it is operating based on voltage. The owner must have had to use an unconventional method to turn the batteries on, because typically you would only press the switch on the master battery. In this case, that doesn't work because the communication chain is broken at some point. >>> >>> The reason for my visit was the battery is sitting at 43 volts because the generator didn't start and the low battery disconnect was set to 44 volts, well below the 49 volts recommended by Pytes. Side note: I could not set the low battery cut out higher than 48V with these inverters. >>> >>> I was there to get these jump started with a Chargeverter. I rigged it up and got things going, but various batteries were alarming out. Ultimately I just disconnected the communication cables on all the batteries and they all started charging from the Chargeverter which was connected to the common bus. Awesome! >>> >>> So back to the original question... Are the batteries really doing anything in terms of balancing when they are connected in a communications daisy chain when they are not enclosed loop communications with an inverter? How important is the communication anyway? And in this case, assuming that the maximum batteries in a communication chain is eight, I would probably be better off setting up four separate communications with four master batteries in groups of five. Again, I'm not sure how important that is in terms of balancing. What if I had different quantities per communication group? They're not talking to each other anyway! >>> >>> Not to muddy up this thread, but I will say that the Chargeverter saved the day. Within 20 minutes, I was able to get the inverters turned on and the SCP to help me identify what went wrong. Then I turned on the inverters and got them charging the batteries simultaneously with the Chargeverter and solar. It really just needed a jump start! I had rigged it up in a way that I could easily do this and then safely disconnect the Chargeverter while the rest of the system continued to charge the batteries. It was my first experience with this little gem, and I'm happy to have it in my toolbox now. >>> >>> Tomorrow I am going back to restart the charging process and hopefully get the batteries up to 100%. I also plan to check the firmware, which I am almost positive is mismatched in this stack of batteries. All of my off-grid systems are a boat ride away, so I'm going to pretend it's a weekend and I'm not working. Haha. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: hqdefault.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11344 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat May 17 12:15:07 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 17 May 2025 16:15:07 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Inter-Battery Communication In-Reply-To: <8DE7F2E7-D751-448D-BBDE-908703A7956F@mavericksolar.com> References: <8DE7F2E7-D751-448D-BBDE-908703A7956F@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: I watched the video and this makes sense to me. Can we get some input from other manufacturers on the same condition or are the battery management systems accomplishing this already? And does it happen in the same fashion as this bleed off of the higher charged cells? An explanation would be wonderful manufacturers please and thank you. Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 On May 17, 2025, at 9:52 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote:  Jay, Over time I noticed that with lower voltage (say 54.4 [3.4vpc]) and little to no absorb was causing a wider gap in the SOC of individual batteries. I found that the solution was to charge to a higher voltage and to absorb longer that 5 minutes, etc. I could observe this spread of SOC on various Lithium battery brands and I started editing the settings to get back to a more Lead Acid style approach. It works. I was typing an even longer explanation… This video says it all: FAQ: Charging Cycle: what is absorption for, and is it needed? l Battle Born Batteries youtu.be I chose 3.45V per cell for all LiFePO4 batteries (so 55.2 for 16s batteries) and so far, all customers, all brands are fairly tight on the SOC range per battery. I have to be onsite to measure that, of course, but data looks good. I set the Absorb time long enough to give the individual battery entities time to internally balance and catch up on SOC. The higher SOC batteries will naturally taper their charge current. But, 55.2 is not high enough to trip a Charge Relay in any battery. As a side note, Fortress sells the Guardian and that lets you see the SOC of individual batteries from afar and then you an do something about SOC remotely. I wish I could hack the Guardian for other brands, I would install it everywhere. I wonder if Solar Assistant can see individual CAN connected batteries?? All Y’all, Let me know what you think and if you have any feedback. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On May 17, 2025, at 10:21 AM, Jay wrote: Hi maverick Can you explain the logic of 55v for 3 hrs? Thx Jay On May 17, 2025, at 7:50 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: Jason, I think it is valuable to have SOC information available if you also have an InsightHome device that can show the SOC data for reference etc. For legacy inverters, voltage still makes the decisions. I don’t know of any battery that communicates together to balance between individual battery entities. That still leaves the necessity to charge via voltage high enough to get all batteries to high and similar SOC. The E-BOX says via Pylontech protocol that its battery voltage range is 46.5V to 56.8V, so I think 48V LBCO is fine and certainly 44 is too low. There is a “.8” version of battery firmware and a “.16” version. I can send you the .16 version that I have (SPBMS16SRP2205V1.5.18.C16). I use HyperTerminal to install the software and it is the absolute easiest battery to view the details using the Pytes USB to Serial cable (other cable brands could also work). HyperTerminal was provided free by Pytes. I can send you that as well. A lot of this might still be on their website. I lieu of having a Pytes Hub to stack the existing bank as multiple groups of 10 batteries, you could upgrade each battery to .16 firmware and make two communicating stacks of 10 that don’t communicate together. If you have InsightHome, you can wire the CAN port of the left 10 to Insight and the RS485 port of the right stack to Inight and make “two battery banks” show up in Insight. On the Pytes, the CAN RJ45 Blue pair is CAN and the Orange Pair is RS485 (from the RS485 port). If you have InsightFacity you can use both CAN ports. CAN devices show up automatically and RS485 device need to be setup via InsightLocal / Setup / Device Detection / Detect Device / RS-485: 1 to 10. On the Charge Controllers, I would set Absorb to 55.2 for 3 hours. I even started using EQ at 56.0 on some systems. Good luck today! Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On May 16, 2025, at 6:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: The advantages of closed loop communication between LFP batteries and inverter systems are pretty obvious. But when you are operating in an open loop because you are working with a legacy inverter that does not support battery communication, how important is it for batteries to be wired together? I started contemplating this today when I ran into a Pytes stack of 20 E-Box 48100R (5kWh) batteries. Whoever installed them wired all 20 in a single communication daisy chain. Come to find out, this version of the battery only supports 8 or 16 in a communications network. The bank is connected to a couple of XW+ inverters, so it is operating based on voltage. The owner must have had to use an unconventional method to turn the batteries on, because typically you would only press the switch on the master battery. In this case, that doesn't work because the communication chain is broken at some point. The reason for my visit was the battery is sitting at 43 volts because the generator didn't start and the low battery disconnect was set to 44 volts, well below the 49 volts recommended by Pytes. Side note: I could not set the low battery cut out higher than 48V with these inverters. I was there to get these jump started with a Chargeverter. I rigged it up and got things going, but various batteries were alarming out. Ultimately I just disconnected the communication cables on all the batteries and they all started charging from the Chargeverter which was connected to the common bus. Awesome! So back to the original question... Are the batteries really doing anything in terms of balancing when they are connected in a communications daisy chain when they are not enclosed loop communications with an inverter? How important is the communication anyway? And in this case, assuming that the maximum batteries in a communication chain is eight, I would probably be better off setting up four separate communications with four master batteries in groups of five. Again, I'm not sure how important that is in terms of balancing. What if I had different quantities per communication group? They're not talking to each other anyway! Not to muddy up this thread, but I will say that the Chargeverter saved the day. Within 20 minutes, I was able to get the inverters turned on and the SCP to help me identify what went wrong. Then I turned on the inverters and got them charging the batteries simultaneously with the Chargeverter and solar. It really just needed a jump start! I had rigged it up in a way that I could easily do this and then safely disconnect the Chargeverter while the rest of the system continued to charge the batteries. It was my first experience with this little gem, and I'm happy to have it in my toolbox now. Tomorrow I am going back to restart the charging process and hopefully get the batteries up to 100%. I also plan to check the firmware, which I am almost positive is mismatched in this stack of batteries. All of my off-grid systems are a boat ride away, so I'm going to pretend it's a weekend and I'm not working. Haha. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: hqdefault.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11344 bytes Desc: hqdefault.jpg URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat May 17 12:22:15 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 17 May 2025 11:22:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Inter-Battery Communication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, Oh yeah… Logic: Jason’s customer has 20 batteries in parallel. Longer Absorb will help let them all catch up… 3 hours is not a fact, just a starting point. It could be lower or higher. Another consideration is the XW Charge controller voltage calibration verses what the batteries think they have. Hopefully, Jason has the USB Serial cable and can investigate the individual batteries. ;-) Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On May 17, 2025, at 10:21 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi maverick > > Can you explain the logic of 55v for 3 hrs? > > Thx > Jay > > > > > > >> On May 17, 2025, at 7:50 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Jason, >> >> I think it is valuable to have SOC information available if you also have an InsightHome device that can show the SOC data for reference etc. For legacy inverters, voltage still makes the decisions. >> >> I don’t know of any battery that communicates together to balance between individual battery entities. That still leaves the necessity to charge via voltage high enough to get all batteries to high and similar SOC. >> >> The E-BOX says via Pylontech protocol that its battery voltage range is 46.5V to 56.8V, so I think 48V LBCO is fine and certainly 44 is too low. >> >> There is a “.8” version of battery firmware and a “.16” version. I can send you the .16 version that I have (SPBMS16SRP2205V1.5.18.C16). I use HyperTerminal to install the software and it is the absolute easiest battery to view the details using the Pytes USB to Serial cable (other cable brands could also work). HyperTerminal was provided free by Pytes. I can send you that as well. A lot of this might still be on their website. >> >> I lieu of having a Pytes Hub to stack the existing bank as multiple groups of 10 batteries, you could upgrade each battery to .16 firmware and make two communicating stacks of 10 that don’t communicate together. If you have InsightHome, you can wire the CAN port of the left 10 to Insight and the RS485 port of the right stack to Inight and make “two battery banks” show up in Insight. On the Pytes, the CAN RJ45 Blue pair is CAN and the Orange Pair is RS485 (from the RS485 port). If you have InsightFacity you can use both CAN ports. CAN devices show up automatically and RS485 device need to be setup via InsightLocal / Setup / Device Detection / Detect Device / RS-485: 1 to 10. >> >> On the Charge Controllers, I would set Absorb to 55.2 for 3 hours. >> >> I even started using EQ at 56.0 on some systems. >> >> Good luck today! >> >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >>> On May 16, 2025, at 6:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> The advantages of closed loop communication between LFP batteries and inverter systems are pretty obvious. But when you are operating in an open loop because you are working with a legacy inverter that does not support battery communication, how important is it for batteries to be wired together? >>> >>> I started contemplating this today when I ran into a Pytes stack of 20 E-Box 48100R (5kWh) batteries. Whoever installed them wired all 20 in a single communication daisy chain. Come to find out, this version of the battery only supports 8 or 16 in a communications network. The bank is connected to a couple of XW+ inverters, so it is operating based on voltage. The owner must have had to use an unconventional method to turn the batteries on, because typically you would only press the switch on the master battery. In this case, that doesn't work because the communication chain is broken at some point. >>> >>> The reason for my visit was the battery is sitting at 43 volts because the generator didn't start and the low battery disconnect was set to 44 volts, well below the 49 volts recommended by Pytes. Side note: I could not set the low battery cut out higher than 48V with these inverters. >>> >>> I was there to get these jump started with a Chargeverter. I rigged it up and got things going, but various batteries were alarming out. Ultimately I just disconnected the communication cables on all the batteries and they all started charging from the Chargeverter which was connected to the common bus. Awesome! >>> >>> So back to the original question... Are the batteries really doing anything in terms of balancing when they are connected in a communications daisy chain when they are not enclosed loop communications with an inverter? How important is the communication anyway? And in this case, assuming that the maximum batteries in a communication chain is eight, I would probably be better off setting up four separate communications with four master batteries in groups of five. Again, I'm not sure how important that is in terms of balancing. What if I had different quantities per communication group? They're not talking to each other anyway! >>> >>> Not to muddy up this thread, but I will say that the Chargeverter saved the day. Within 20 minutes, I was able to get the inverters turned on and the SCP to help me identify what went wrong. Then I turned on the inverters and got them charging the batteries simultaneously with the Chargeverter and solar. It really just needed a jump start! I had rigged it up in a way that I could easily do this and then safely disconnect the Chargeverter while the rest of the system continued to charge the batteries. It was my first experience with this little gem, and I'm happy to have it in my toolbox now. >>> >>> Tomorrow I am going back to restart the charging process and hopefully get the batteries up to 100%. I also plan to check the firmware, which I am almost positive is mismatched in this stack of batteries. All of my off-grid systems are a boat ride away, so I'm going to pretend it's a weekend and I'm not working. Haha. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat May 17 12:40:15 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 17 May 2025 09:40:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Inter-Battery Communication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65db84ceb915373001e82d3d1152fc37@sti.net> Good info Maverick on the 3 hours. From Discover rack batts (5) & Schneider The closed loop charge voltage is around mid to high 55V, the current will only decrease once the target charge voltage is reached. You can see the target charge voltage on both lynk II and Schneider side. This will not damage the battery and it is beneficial for the batteries since balancing only kicks in usually at the very top. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-05-17 7:49 am, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jason, > > I think it is valuable to have SOC information available if you also > have an InsightHome device that can show the SOC data for reference > etc. For legacy inverters, voltage still makes the decisions. > > I don't know of any battery that communicates together to balance > between individual battery entities. That still leaves the necessity to > charge via voltage high enough to get all batteries to high and similar > SOC. > > The E-BOX says via Pylontech protocol that its battery voltage range is > 46.5V to 56.8V, so I think 48V LBCO is fine and certainly 44 is too > low. > > There is a ".8" version of battery firmware and a ".16" version. I can > send you the .16 version that I have (SPBMS16SRP2205V1.5.18.C16). I use > HyperTerminal to install the software and it is the absolute easiest > battery to view the details using the Pytes USB to Serial cable (other > cable brands could also work). HyperTerminal was provided free by > Pytes. I can send you that as well. A lot of this might still be on > their website. > > I lieu of having a Pytes Hub to stack the existing bank as multiple > groups of 10 batteries, you could upgrade each battery to .16 firmware > and make two communicating stacks of 10 that don't communicate > together. If you have InsightHome, you can wire the CAN port of the > left 10 to Insight and the RS485 port of the right stack to Inight and > make "two battery banks" show up in Insight. On the Pytes, the CAN RJ45 > Blue pair is CAN and the Orange Pair is RS485 (from the RS485 port). If > you have InsightFacity you can use both CAN ports. CAN devices show up > automatically and RS485 device need to be setup via InsightLocal / > Setup / Device Detection / Detect Device / RS-485: 1 to 10. > > On the Charge Controllers, I would set Absorb to 55.2 for 3 hours. > > I even started using EQ at 56.0 on some systems. > > Good luck today! > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > * Solar Commander Remote Power > * SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > >> On May 16, 2025, at 6:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> The advantages of closed loop communication between LFP batteries and >> inverter systems are pretty obvious. But when you are operating in an >> open loop because you are working with a legacy inverter that does not >> support battery communication, how important is it for batteries to be >> wired together? >> >> I started contemplating this today when I ran into a Pytes stack of 20 >> E-Box 48100R (5kWh) batteries. Whoever installed them wired all 20 in >> a single communication daisy chain. Come to find out, this version of >> the battery only supports 8 or 16 in a communications network. The >> bank is connected to a couple of XW+ inverters, so it is operating >> based on voltage. The owner must have had to use an unconventional >> method to turn the batteries on, because typically you would only >> press the switch on the master battery. In this case, that doesn't >> work because the communication chain is broken at some point. >> >> The reason for my visit was the battery is sitting at 43 volts because >> the generator didn't start and the low battery disconnect was set to >> 44 volts, well below the 49 volts recommended by Pytes. Side note: I >> could not set the low battery cut out higher than 48V with these >> inverters. >> >> I was there to get these jump started with a Chargeverter. I rigged it >> up and got things going, but various batteries were alarming out. >> Ultimately I just disconnected the communication cables on all the >> batteries and they all started charging from the Chargeverter which >> was connected to the common bus. Awesome! >> >> So back to the original question... Are the batteries really doing >> anything in terms of balancing when they are connected in a >> communications daisy chain when they are not enclosed loop >> communications with an inverter? How important is the communication >> anyway? And in this case, assuming that the maximum batteries in a >> communication chain is eight, I would probably be better off setting >> up four separate communications with four master batteries in groups >> of five. Again, I'm not sure how important that is in terms of >> balancing. What if I had different quantities per communication group? >> They're not talking to each other anyway! >> >> Not to muddy up this thread, but I will say that the Chargeverter >> saved the day. Within 20 minutes, I was able to get the inverters >> turned on and the SCP to help me identify what went wrong. Then I >> turned on the inverters and got them charging the batteries >> simultaneously with the Chargeverter and solar. It really just needed >> a jump start! I had rigged it up in a way that I could easily do this >> and then safely disconnect the Chargeverter while the rest of the >> system continued to charge the batteries. It was my first experience >> with this little gem, and I'm happy to have it in my toolbox now. >> >> Tomorrow I am going back to restart the charging process and hopefully >> get the batteries up to 100%. I also plan to check the firmware, which >> I am almost positive is mismatched in this stack of batteries. All of >> my off-grid systems are a boat ride away, so I'm going to pretend it's >> a weekend and I'm not working. Haha. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat May 17 11:47:13 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 17 May 2025 09:47:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Inter-Battery Communication In-Reply-To: <8DE7F2E7-D751-448D-BBDE-908703A7956F@mavericksolar.com> References: <8DE7F2E7-D751-448D-BBDE-908703A7956F@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <509F76CE-8A69-46A3-A393-F6D429D03EEC@gmail.com> Thanks This system uses a passive balancer which is only active at or above some high voltage setting, bms specific which therefor needs enough time at those voltages to balance. I wish the OEM would state such things as which type active or passive balancing and exactly how much it can balance and those specifics. Since most closed loop systems have almost no time spent at the top voltage, I am assuming they are using active balancing. And many people are using lithium with legacy inverters/CC so better info would be good. Its why I like to use batteries that I can see the cell voltages ( EG4 for example) via the built in display or via their inverter coupled with their battery. Jay > On May 17, 2025, at 9:51 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jay, > > Over time I noticed that with lower voltage (say 54.4 [3.4vpc]) and little to no absorb was causing a wider gap in the SOC of individual batteries. I found that the solution was to charge to a higher voltage and to absorb longer that 5 minutes, etc. > > I could observe this spread of SOC on various Lithium battery brands and I started editing the settings to get back to a more Lead Acid style approach. It works. > > I was typing an even longer explanation… This video says it all: > > https://youtu.be/METijpjpKWE > > I chose 3.45V per cell for all LiFePO4 batteries (so 55.2 for 16s batteries) and so far, all customers, all brands are fairly tight on the SOC range per battery. I have to be onsite to measure that, of course, but data looks good. > > I set the Absorb time long enough to give the individual battery entities time to internally balance and catch up on SOC. The higher SOC batteries will naturally taper their charge current. But, 55.2 is not high enough to trip a Charge Relay in any battery. > > As a side note, Fortress sells the Guardian and that lets you see the SOC of individual batteries from afar and then you an do something about SOC remotely. I wish I could hack the Guardian for other brands, I would install it everywhere. I wonder if Solar Assistant can see individual CAN connected batteries?? > > All Y’all, Let me know what you think and if you have any feedback. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > >> On May 17, 2025, at 10:21 AM, Jay wrote: >> >> Hi maverick >> >> Can you explain the logic of 55v for 3 hrs? >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On May 17, 2025, at 7:50 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Jason, >>> >>> I think it is valuable to have SOC information available if you also have an InsightHome device that can show the SOC data for reference etc. For legacy inverters, voltage still makes the decisions. >>> >>> I don’t know of any battery that communicates together to balance between individual battery entities. That still leaves the necessity to charge via voltage high enough to get all batteries to high and similar SOC. >>> >>> The E-BOX says via Pylontech protocol that its battery voltage range is 46.5V to 56.8V, so I think 48V LBCO is fine and certainly 44 is too low. >>> >>> There is a “.8” version of battery firmware and a “.16” version. I can send you the .16 version that I have (SPBMS16SRP2205V1.5.18.C16). I use HyperTerminal to install the software and it is the absolute easiest battery to view the details using the Pytes USB to Serial cable (other cable brands could also work). HyperTerminal was provided free by Pytes. I can send you that as well. A lot of this might still be on their website. >>> >>> I lieu of having a Pytes Hub to stack the existing bank as multiple groups of 10 batteries, you could upgrade each battery to .16 firmware and make two communicating stacks of 10 that don’t communicate together. If you have InsightHome, you can wire the CAN port of the left 10 to Insight and the RS485 port of the right stack to Inight and make “two battery banks” show up in Insight. On the Pytes, the CAN RJ45 Blue pair is CAN and the Orange Pair is RS485 (from the RS485 port). If you have InsightFacity you can use both CAN ports. CAN devices show up automatically and RS485 device need to be setup via InsightLocal / Setup / Device Detection / Detect Device / RS-485: 1 to 10. >>> >>> On the Charge Controllers, I would set Absorb to 55.2 for 3 hours. >>> >>> I even started using EQ at 56.0 on some systems. >>> >>> Good luck today! >>> >>> >>> Maverick Brown >>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >>> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >>> • Solar Commander Remote Power >>> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >>> maverick at mavericksolar.com >>> 512-460-9825 >>> >>>> On May 16, 2025, at 6:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> The advantages of closed loop communication between LFP batteries and inverter systems are pretty obvious. But when you are operating in an open loop because you are working with a legacy inverter that does not support battery communication, how important is it for batteries to be wired together? >>>> >>>> I started contemplating this today when I ran into a Pytes stack of 20 E-Box 48100R (5kWh) batteries. Whoever installed them wired all 20 in a single communication daisy chain. Come to find out, this version of the battery only supports 8 or 16 in a communications network. The bank is connected to a couple of XW+ inverters, so it is operating based on voltage. The owner must have had to use an unconventional method to turn the batteries on, because typically you would only press the switch on the master battery. In this case, that doesn't work because the communication chain is broken at some point. >>>> >>>> The reason for my visit was the battery is sitting at 43 volts because the generator didn't start and the low battery disconnect was set to 44 volts, well below the 49 volts recommended by Pytes. Side note: I could not set the low battery cut out higher than 48V with these inverters. >>>> >>>> I was there to get these jump started with a Chargeverter. I rigged it up and got things going, but various batteries were alarming out. Ultimately I just disconnected the communication cables on all the batteries and they all started charging from the Chargeverter which was connected to the common bus. Awesome! >>>> >>>> So back to the original question... Are the batteries really doing anything in terms of balancing when they are connected in a communications daisy chain when they are not enclosed loop communications with an inverter? How important is the communication anyway? And in this case, assuming that the maximum batteries in a communication chain is eight, I would probably be better off setting up four separate communications with four master batteries in groups of five. Again, I'm not sure how important that is in terms of balancing. What if I had different quantities per communication group? They're not talking to each other anyway! >>>> >>>> Not to muddy up this thread, but I will say that the Chargeverter saved the day. Within 20 minutes, I was able to get the inverters turned on and the SCP to help me identify what went wrong. Then I turned on the inverters and got them charging the batteries simultaneously with the Chargeverter and solar. It really just needed a jump start! I had rigged it up in a way that I could easily do this and then safely disconnect the Chargeverter while the rest of the system continued to charge the batteries. It was my first experience with this little gem, and I'm happy to have it in my toolbox now. >>>> >>>> Tomorrow I am going back to restart the charging process and hopefully get the batteries up to 100%. I also plan to check the firmware, which I am almost positive is mismatched in this stack of batteries. All of my off-grid systems are a boat ride away, so I'm going to pretend it's a weekend and I'm not working. Haha. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat May 17 13:04:21 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 17 May 2025 10:04:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Inter-Battery Communication In-Reply-To: <509F76CE-8A69-46A3-A393-F6D429D03EEC@gmail.com> References: <8DE7F2E7-D751-448D-BBDE-908703A7956F@mavericksolar.com> <509F76CE-8A69-46A3-A393-F6D429D03EEC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <04f66d071598aab9b261300adbd164b8@sti.net> Discover has been showing cell level since the beginning of LFP via lynk, Dashboard, and spread sheets. Much nicer now with Lynk2. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-05-17 8:47 am, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Thanks > > This system uses a passive balancer which is only active at or above > some high voltage setting, bms specific which therefor needs enough > time at those voltages to balance. > > I wish the OEM would state such things as which type active or passive > balancing and exactly how much it can balance and those specifics. > Since most closed loop systems have almost no time spent at the top > voltage, I am assuming they are using active balancing. And many people > are using lithium with legacy inverters/CC so better info would be > good. > > Its why I like to use batteries that I can see the cell voltages ( EG4 > for example) via the built in display or via their inverter coupled > with their battery. > > Jay > > On May 17, 2025, at 9:51 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Jay, > > Over time I noticed that with lower voltage (say 54.4 [3.4vpc]) and > little to no absorb was causing a wider gap in the SOC of individual > batteries. I found that the solution was to charge to a higher voltage > and to absorb longer that 5 minutes, etc. > > I could observe this spread of SOC on various Lithium battery brands > and I started editing the settings to get back to a more Lead Acid > style approach. It works. > > I was typing an even longer explanation... This video says it all: > > > > FAQ: Charging Cycle: what is absorption for, and is it needed? l Battle > Born Batteries [1] > youtu.be [1] > > I chose 3.45V per cell for all LiFePO4 batteries (so 55.2 for 16s > batteries) and so far, all customers, all brands are fairly tight on > the SOC range per battery. I have to be onsite to measure that, of > course, but data looks good. > > I set the Absorb time long enough to give the individual battery > entities time to internally balance and catch up on SOC. The higher SOC > batteries will naturally taper their charge current. But, 55.2 is not > high enough to trip a Charge Relay in any battery. > > As a side note, Fortress sells the Guardian and that lets you see the > SOC of individual batteries from afar and then you an do something > about SOC remotely. I wish I could hack the Guardian for other brands, > I would install it everywhere. I wonder if Solar Assistant can see > individual CAN connected batteries?? > > All Y'all, Let me know what you think and if you have any feedback. > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > * Solar Commander Remote Power > * SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > On May 17, 2025, at 10:21 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi maverick > > Can you explain the logic of 55v for 3 hrs? > > Thx > Jay > > On May 17, 2025, at 7:50 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Jason, > > I think it is valuable to have SOC information available if you also > have an InsightHome device that can show the SOC data for reference > etc. For legacy inverters, voltage still makes the decisions. > > I don't know of any battery that communicates together to balance > between individual battery entities. That still leaves the necessity to > charge via voltage high enough to get all batteries to high and similar > SOC. > > The E-BOX says via Pylontech protocol that its battery voltage range is > 46.5V to 56.8V, so I think 48V LBCO is fine and certainly 44 is too > low. > > There is a ".8" version of battery firmware and a ".16" version. I can > send you the .16 version that I have (SPBMS16SRP2205V1.5.18.C16). I use > HyperTerminal to install the software and it is the absolute easiest > battery to view the details using the Pytes USB to Serial cable (other > cable brands could also work). HyperTerminal was provided free by > Pytes. I can send you that as well. A lot of this might still be on > their website. > > I lieu of having a Pytes Hub to stack the existing bank as multiple > groups of 10 batteries, you could upgrade each battery to .16 firmware > and make two communicating stacks of 10 that don't communicate > together. If you have InsightHome, you can wire the CAN port of the > left 10 to Insight and the RS485 port of the right stack to Inight and > make "two battery banks" show up in Insight. On the Pytes, the CAN RJ45 > Blue pair is CAN and the Orange Pair is RS485 (from the RS485 port). If > you have InsightFacity you can use both CAN ports. CAN devices show up > automatically and RS485 device need to be setup via InsightLocal / > Setup / Device Detection / Detect Device / RS-485: 1 to 10. > > On the Charge Controllers, I would set Absorb to 55.2 for 3 hours. > > I even started using EQ at 56.0 on some systems. > > Good luck today! > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > * Solar Commander Remote Power > * SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > On May 16, 2025, at 6:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > The advantages of closed loop communication between LFP batteries and > inverter systems are pretty obvious. But when you are operating in an > open loop because you are working with a legacy inverter that does not > support battery communication, how important is it for batteries to be > wired together? > > I started contemplating this today when I ran into a Pytes stack of 20 > E-Box 48100R (5kWh) batteries. Whoever installed them wired all 20 in a > single communication daisy chain. Come to find out, this version of the > battery only supports 8 or 16 in a communications network. The bank is > connected to a couple of XW+ inverters, so it is operating based on > voltage. The owner must have had to use an unconventional method to > turn the batteries on, because typically you would only press the > switch on the master battery. In this case, that doesn't work because > the communication chain is broken at some point. > > The reason for my visit was the battery is sitting at 43 volts because > the generator didn't start and the low battery disconnect was set to 44 > volts, well below the 49 volts recommended by Pytes. Side note: I > could not set the low battery cut out higher than 48V with these > inverters. > > I was there to get these jump started with a Chargeverter. I rigged it > up and got things going, but various batteries were alarming out. > Ultimately I just disconnected the communication cables on all the > batteries and they all started charging from the Chargeverter which was > connected to the common bus. Awesome! > > So back to the original question... Are the batteries really doing > anything in terms of balancing when they are connected in a > communications daisy chain when they are not enclosed loop > communications with an inverter? How important is the communication > anyway? And in this case, assuming that the maximum batteries in a > communication chain is eight, I would probably be better off setting up > four separate communications with four master batteries in groups of > five. Again, I'm not sure how important that is in terms of balancing. > What if I had different quantities per communication group? They're not > talking to each other anyway! > > Not to muddy up this thread, but I will say that the Chargeverter saved > the day. Within 20 minutes, I was able to get the inverters turned on > and the SCP to help me identify what went wrong. Then I turned on the > inverters and got them charging the batteries simultaneously with the > Chargeverter and solar. It really just needed a jump start! I had > rigged it up in a way that I could easily do this and then safely > disconnect the Chargeverter while the rest of the system continued to > charge the batteries. It was my first experience with this little gem, > and I'm happy to have it in my toolbox now. > > Tomorrow I am going back to restart the charging process and hopefully > get the batteries up to 100%. I also plan to check the firmware, which > I am almost positive is mismatched in this stack of batteries. All of > my off-grid systems are a boat ride away, so I'm going to pretend it's > a weekend and I'm not working. Haha. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://youtu.be/METijpjpKWE [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Sat May 17 14:02:21 2025 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Sat, 17 May 2025 11:02:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extending cable length for MNGP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6368d106-1f8a-4fe4-9a21-22325b97b6d5@coveoregon.com> I have a system with two MNGP2s. The second is at a house over 200' from the first one; connection is with standard cat 5 cable. Before attempting the long distance connection I inquired at Midnite and was told that they have seen the MNGP2 work with 500' of shielded cat 5 cable. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 5/15/2025 3:58 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wrenches > Has anyone relocated the MNGP > (midnite graphics panel) over 150ft with success? > It’s ran via Cat5 cable. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat May 17 17:19:25 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 17 May 2025 17:19:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics coming back. I have 8 out of 39 back on line. Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sat May 17 18:18:41 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Sat, 17 May 2025 15:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics coming back. I have 8 out of 39 back on line. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1747520321.859411067@webmail.finestplanet.com> After any kind of extended outage, the Mate3s seems to "hang" and need rebooting to connect. I have a way to do this remotely and the thread detailing that is here: [ https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?p=106925 ]( https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?p=106925 ) On Saturday, May 17, 2025 2:19pm, "John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches" said: Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat May 17 19:13:52 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 17 May 2025 19:13:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Inter-Battery Communication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Maverick. I do have the cable and the software from Pytes. I checked all batteries and there were all C version and on .8 Firmware. Pytes also sent me the .16 version file, but I elected to just connect them in four stacks of 5. This will make it easier to upgrade later because I believe you only need to upgrade the host batteries and the slaves will all update automatically. The Pytes software is pretty great. When they are in a comm string, you can see all connected batteries from the Host in the same interface. You can see all kinds of real time data and historical events. After I got the 20 jump started and charging today I went to the neighbor's house with a stack of 8 Pytes. They were not coming alive when connected together. I connected to the Host battery and the software found only 7 batteries. This stack has two C versions on .8 and six B versions on 1.3.17, which is compatible with C version when thety are on .8 (but not if they are in .16). It turns out that the one battery not taking was a B version, and the only. Thing in the Pytes software that is different Is this battery has no "Barcode" associated with it. It lists the Barcode as ---. I have no idea what that means, but given that it is the only battery without this field populated, it has to have something to do with the communication chain being broken. I tried to place it at the end of the communication chain and also to use it as the host, and none of that worked. I ended up leaving seven connected together and the bad battery just on its own with no comms. I couldn't reach Pytes support, so I'm waiting on answers. I'm thinking that this communication glitch is what was causing the Midnite AIO to shut off due to a battery absent error occasionally. In the battery Event logs, I can see an ADDR fault, so that suggests that the stack of batteries shut down due to an address error, and then probably started back up, but the AIO remained off until turned on with user intervention. Not to jumble this up with the other thread about Solar Assistant, but I wonder if you connect multiple stacks of batteries to SA if it would aggregate them and average the SOC. I'm also curious if the individual battery data is viewable. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, May 17, 2025, 12:23 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jay, > > Oh yeah… > > Logic: Jason’s customer has 20 batteries in parallel. Longer Absorb will > help let them all catch up… 3 hours is not a fact, just a starting point. > It could be lower or higher. Another consideration is the XW Charge > controller voltage calibration verses what the batteries think they have. > > Hopefully, Jason has the USB Serial cable and can investigate the > individual batteries. > > ;-) > > Maverick > > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* > * • Solar Commander Remote Power* > > * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection *maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > On May 17, 2025, at 10:21 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi maverick > > Can you explain the logic of 55v for 3 hrs? > > Thx > Jay > > > > > > > On May 17, 2025, at 7:50 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jason, > > I think it is valuable to have SOC information available if you also have > an InsightHome device that can show the SOC data for reference etc. For > legacy inverters, voltage still makes the decisions. > > I don’t know of any battery that communicates together to balance between > individual battery entities. That still leaves the necessity to charge via > voltage high enough to get all batteries to high and similar SOC. > > The E-BOX says via Pylontech protocol that its battery voltage range is > 46.5V to 56.8V, so I think 48V LBCO is fine and certainly 44 is too low. > > There is a “.8” version of battery firmware and a “.16” version. I can > send you the .16 version that I have (SPBMS16SRP2205V1.5.18.C16). I use > HyperTerminal to install the software and it is the absolute easiest > battery to view the details using the Pytes USB to Serial cable (other > cable brands could also work). HyperTerminal was provided free by Pytes. I > can send you that as well. A lot of this might still be on their website. > > I lieu of having a Pytes Hub to stack the existing bank as multiple groups > of 10 batteries, you could upgrade each battery to .16 firmware and make > two communicating stacks of 10 that don’t communicate together. If you have > InsightHome, you can wire the CAN port of the left 10 to Insight and the > RS485 port of the right stack to Inight and make “two battery banks” show > up in Insight. On the Pytes, the CAN RJ45 Blue pair is CAN and the Orange > Pair is RS485 (from the RS485 port). If you have InsightFacity you can use > both CAN ports. CAN devices show up automatically and RS485 device need to > be setup via InsightLocal / Setup / Device Detection / Detect Device / > RS-485: 1 to 10. > > On the Charge Controllers, I would set Absorb to 55.2 for 3 hours. > > I even started using EQ at 56.0 on some systems. > > Good luck today! > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* > * • Solar Commander Remote Power* > > * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection *maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > On May 16, 2025, at 6:22 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > The advantages of closed loop communication between LFP batteries and > inverter systems are pretty obvious. But when you are operating in an open > loop because you are working with a legacy inverter that does not support > battery communication, how important is it for batteries to be wired > together? > > I started contemplating this today when I ran into a Pytes stack of 20 > E-Box 48100R (5kWh) batteries. Whoever installed them wired all 20 in a > single communication daisy chain. Come to find out, this version of the > battery only supports 8 or 16 in a communications network. The bank is > connected to a couple of XW+ inverters, so it is operating based on > voltage. The owner must have had to use an unconventional method to turn > the batteries on, because typically you would only press the switch on the > master battery. In this case, that doesn't work because the communication > chain is broken at some point. > > The reason for my visit was the battery is sitting at 43 volts because the > generator didn't start and the low battery disconnect was set to 44 volts, > well below the 49 volts recommended by Pytes. Side note: I could not set > the low battery cut out higher than 48V with these inverters. > > I was there to get these jump started with a Chargeverter. I rigged it up > and got things going, but various batteries were alarming out. Ultimately I > just disconnected the communication cables on all the batteries and they > all started charging from the Chargeverter which was connected to the > common bus. Awesome! > > So back to the original question... Are the batteries really doing > anything in terms of balancing when they are connected in a communications > daisy chain when they are not enclosed loop communications with an > inverter? How important is the communication anyway? And in this case, > assuming that the maximum batteries in a communication chain is eight, I > would probably be better off setting up four separate communications with > four master batteries in groups of five. Again, I'm not sure how important > that is in terms of balancing. What if I had different quantities per > communication group? They're not talking to each other anyway! > > Not to muddy up this thread, but I will say that the Chargeverter saved > the day. Within 20 minutes, I was able to get the inverters turned on and > the SCP to help me identify what went wrong. Then I turned on the inverters > and got them charging the batteries simultaneously with the Chargeverter > and solar. It really just needed a jump start! I had rigged it up in a way > that I could easily do this and then safely disconnect the Chargeverter > while the rest of the system continued to charge the batteries. It was my > first experience with this little gem, and I'm happy to have it in my > toolbox now. > > Tomorrow I am going back to restart the charging process and hopefully get > the batteries up to 100%. I also plan to check the firmware, which I am > almost positive is mismatched in this stack of batteries. All of my > off-grid systems are a boat ride away, so I'm going to pretend it's a > weekend and I'm not working. Haha. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat May 17 19:42:10 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 17 May 2025 18:42:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Inter-Battery Communication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A158D60-10E2-487E-A41C-265942355267@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garyhsolari at gmail.com Sun May 18 01:15:06 2025 From: garyhsolari at gmail.com (Gary Handelin) Date: Sat, 17 May 2025 22:15:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [RttE-wrenches] Opttttics coming back. I have 8 out of 39 back on line. In-Reply-To: <1747520321.859411067@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1747520321.859411067@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: E On Sat, May 17, 2025 at 3:18 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > After any kind of extended outage, the Mate3s seems to "hang" and need > rebooting to connect. I have a way to do this remotely and the thread > detailing that is here: > > https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?p=106925 > > > > > > > On Saturday, May 17, 2025 2:19pm, "John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun May 18 08:11:46 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 08:11:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's not a bad idea. But it is one more thing to potentially go wrong and have to maintain. I just discovered something else with a parallel AIO and SA setup. Really it's more of an inverter issue. The inverters have wildly inaccurate SOC values if you are doing open loop. You have to divide the battery aH setting by the number of inverters you have for accurate numbers, at least on the firmware I have. I noticed on this triple setup that when the batteries were depleted about 80% (20% SOC), that the inverters reported a SOC of 73%. Each inverter only sees the aH that they consume individually and deduct that from 100%. If you are using the inverter values for SOC in SA, you need to set the aH in the inverters to the proportional share of the battery capacity. This is something I believe Midnite needs to fix unless it has already been addressed in a firmware upgrade. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, May 16, 2025, 9:53 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jason > > How about you install a 12v battery charged from the inverter to power the > device which would give you back up on backup. > > > > > On May 16, 2025, at 12:58 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > But the upside is it doesn't rely on the cloud, so historical data is > stored locally, even in the event of a system shutdown (if you power the Pi > device from the battery DC bus). That doesn't do much good if the battery > BMS turns off, of course, but it's nice to continue logging data even if > there is no Internet connection. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Fri, May 16, 2025, 12:48 AM Brett Stigile via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Overall I like Solar Assistant as well. Be aware it is not cloud based. >> Sure it stores locally on the Pi, that’s great. But, if the internet is >> down you are blind. Not supper helpful for remote sites if you can’t look >> through the data a see if there was a potential issue or if the internet is >> just down. >> >> >> Brett Stigile >> Owner/Renewable Energy Electrician >> 503-317-7950 >> brett at oregonsunwrangler.com >> >> Oregon Sun Wrangler LLC >> CCB: 240661 >> License No: 66LRT >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional Certification >> #PV 100414-008123 >> >> > On May 15, 2025, at 1:05 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >> wrote: >> > >> > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >> > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > You can reach the person managing the list at >> > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >> > >> > >> > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the >> Subject: line to the exact original, and please edit out any extraneous >> lines from the quoted message. >> > >> > >> > >> > Today's Topics: >> > >> > 1. Re: EG4 Praise (Maverick Brown) >> > 2. Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Jason Szumlanski) >> > 3. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (William Bryce) >> > 4. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Kirpal Khalsa) >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Message: 1 >> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 08:14:41 -0500 >> > From: Maverick Brown >> > To: RE-wrenches >> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Praise >> > Message-ID: >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> > >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > URL: < >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250515/1d46c98a/attachment-0001.htm >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 2 >> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 11:37:53 -0400 >> > From: Jason Szumlanski >> > To: RE-wrenches >> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >> > Message-ID: >> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> > >> > I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It >> was >> > surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I had >> > hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three inverters' >> > instant and historical data while providing real time individual >> inverter >> > data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per >> inverter, >> > but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >> > usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >> > >> > If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me >> off >> > list. >> > >> > The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >> > directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from >> Amazon. >> > I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly >> to >> > my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >> > >> > Jason Szumlanski >> > Florida Solar Design Group >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > URL: < >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250515/b8d7966f/attachment-0001.htm >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 3 >> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 12:20:45 -0400 >> > From: William Bryce >> > To: RE-wrenches >> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >> > Message-ID: >> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> > >> > I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will remove >> the >> > chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of your >> > inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation >> from >> > others. >> > >> > With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer locally. >> > >> > On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. >> > >> >> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It >> was >> >> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I >> had >> >> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three >> inverters' >> >> instant and historical data while providing real time individual >> inverter >> >> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per >> inverter, >> >> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >> >> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >> >> >> >> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me >> off >> >> list. >> >> >> >> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >> >> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from >> Amazon. >> >> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly >> to >> >> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the >> >> other: >> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > URL: < >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250515/610bc1b7/attachment-0001.htm >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 4 >> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 09:50:38 -0700 >> > From: Kirpal Khalsa >> > To: RE-wrenches >> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >> > Message-ID: >> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> > >> > Does the Solar Assistant work with Outback gear? >> > >> > Kirpal >> > >> > On Thu, May 15, 2025, 9:21?AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> > >> >> I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will remove >> the >> >> chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of your >> >> inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation >> from >> >> others. >> >> >> >> With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer >> locally. >> >> >> >> On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> >> >>> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It >> was >> >>> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I >> had >> >>> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three >> inverters' >> >>> instant and historical data while providing real time individual >> inverter >> >>> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per >> inverter, >> >>> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >> >>> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >> >>> >> >>> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me >> off >> >>> list. >> >>> >> >>> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >> >>> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from >> Amazon. >> >>> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it >> directly to >> >>> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >> >>> >> >>> Jason Szumlanski >> >>> Florida Solar Design Group >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun May 18 08:27:34 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 08:27:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I will also mention that SA seems to be pulling the SOC information from only the first inverter added to the system, or the one designated as "#1" in SA. It is not averaging the SOC pulled from all three inverters. Another note: I tried the Emulated BMS in SA, and it didn't work. The battery graphs were all wrong, only showing that absolute value for current rather than showing charge and discharge current. The reported SOC stayed pegged at 100%. I went back to using the inverter values, and that is when I discovered the SOC was not dropping fast enough in SA, which led me to the battery aH issue. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sun, May 18, 2025, 8:11 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > That's not a bad idea. But it is one more thing to potentially go wrong > and have to maintain. > > > I just discovered something else with a parallel AIO and SA setup. Really > it's more of an inverter issue. The inverters have wildly inaccurate SOC > values if you are doing open loop. You have to divide the battery aH > setting by the number of inverters you have for accurate numbers, at least > on the firmware I have. I noticed on this triple setup that when the > batteries were depleted about 80% (20% SOC), that the inverters reported a > SOC of 73%. Each inverter only sees the aH that they consume individually > and deduct that from 100%. > > If you are using the inverter values for SOC in SA, you need to set the aH > in the inverters to the proportional share of the battery capacity. > > This is something I believe Midnite needs to fix unless it has already > been addressed in a firmware upgrade. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Fri, May 16, 2025, 9:53 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Jason >> >> How about you install a 12v battery charged from the inverter to power >> the device which would give you back up on backup. >> >> >> >> >> On May 16, 2025, at 12:58 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> But the upside is it doesn't rely on the cloud, so historical data is >> stored locally, even in the event of a system shutdown (if you power the Pi >> device from the battery DC bus). That doesn't do much good if the battery >> BMS turns off, of course, but it's nice to continue logging data even if >> there is no Internet connection. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Fri, May 16, 2025, 12:48 AM Brett Stigile via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Overall I like Solar Assistant as well. Be aware it is not cloud >>> based. Sure it stores locally on the Pi, that’s great. But, if the >>> internet is down you are blind. Not supper helpful for remote sites if you >>> can’t look through the data a see if there was a potential issue or if the >>> internet is just down. >>> >>> >>> Brett Stigile >>> Owner/Renewable Energy Electrician >>> 503-317-7950 >>> brett at oregonsunwrangler.com >>> >>> Oregon Sun Wrangler LLC >>> CCB: 240661 >>> License No: 66LRT >>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional Certification >>> #PV 100414-008123 >>> >>> > On May 15, 2025, at 1:05 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >>> > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > You can reach the person managing the list at >>> > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >>> > >>> > >>> > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the >>> Subject: line to the exact original, and please edit out any extraneous >>> lines from the quoted message. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Today's Topics: >>> > >>> > 1. Re: EG4 Praise (Maverick Brown) >>> > 2. Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Jason Szumlanski) >>> > 3. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (William Bryce) >>> > 4. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Kirpal Khalsa) >>> > >>> > >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > >>> > Message: 1 >>> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 08:14:41 -0500 >>> > From: Maverick Brown >>> > To: RE-wrenches >>> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Praise >>> > Message-ID: >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>> > >>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> > URL: < >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250515/1d46c98a/attachment-0001.htm >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------ >>> > >>> > Message: 2 >>> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 11:37:53 -0400 >>> > From: Jason Szumlanski >>> > To: RE-wrenches >>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >>> > Message-ID: >>> > >> > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> > >>> > I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It >>> was >>> > surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I >>> had >>> > hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three >>> inverters' >>> > instant and historical data while providing real time individual >>> inverter >>> > data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per >>> inverter, >>> > but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>> > usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>> > >>> > If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me >>> off >>> > list. >>> > >>> > The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >>> > directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from >>> Amazon. >>> > I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly >>> to >>> > my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>> > >>> > Jason Szumlanski >>> > Florida Solar Design Group >>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> > URL: < >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250515/b8d7966f/attachment-0001.htm >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------ >>> > >>> > Message: 3 >>> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 12:20:45 -0400 >>> > From: William Bryce >>> > To: RE-wrenches >>> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >>> > Message-ID: >>> > >> > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> > >>> > I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will remove >>> the >>> > chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of your >>> > inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation >>> from >>> > others. >>> > >>> > With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer >>> locally. >>> > >>> > On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. >>> > >>> >> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It >>> was >>> >> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I >>> had >>> >> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three >>> inverters' >>> >> instant and historical data while providing real time individual >>> inverter >>> >> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per >>> inverter, >>> >> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>> >> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>> >> >>> >> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me >>> off >>> >> list. >>> >> >>> >> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >>> >> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from >>> Amazon. >>> >> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it >>> directly to >>> >> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>> >> >>> >> Jason Szumlanski >>> >> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >> >>> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the >>> >> other: >>> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >> >>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> > URL: < >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250515/610bc1b7/attachment-0001.htm >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------ >>> > >>> > Message: 4 >>> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 09:50:38 -0700 >>> > From: Kirpal Khalsa >>> > To: RE-wrenches >>> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >>> > Message-ID: >>> > >> > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> > >>> > Does the Solar Assistant work with Outback gear? >>> > >>> > Kirpal >>> > >>> > On Thu, May 15, 2025, 9:21?AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>> > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> > >>> >> I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will >>> remove the >>> >> chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of >>> your >>> >> inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation >>> from >>> >> others. >>> >> >>> >> With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer >>> locally. >>> >> >>> >> On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. >>> >> >>> >> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. >>> It was >>> >>> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I >>> had >>> >>> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three >>> inverters' >>> >>> instant and historical data while providing real time individual >>> inverter >>> >>> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per >>> inverter, >>> >>> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>> >>> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>> >>> >>> >>> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact >>> me off >>> >>> list. >>> >>> >>> >>> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >>> >>> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from >>> Amazon. >>> >>> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it >>> directly to >>> >>> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Sun May 18 09:13:29 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 09:13:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SA will combine the SOC if the Communication is working properly with the BMS and the MNS AIO. See attached On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 8:28 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I will also mention that SA seems to be pulling the SOC information from > only the first inverter added to the system, or the one designated as "#1" > in SA. It is not averaging the SOC pulled from all three inverters. > > Another note: I tried the Emulated BMS in SA, and it didn't work. The > battery graphs were all wrong, only showing that absolute value for current > rather than showing charge and discharge current. The reported SOC stayed > pegged at 100%. I went back to using the inverter values, and that is when > I discovered the SOC was not dropping fast enough in SA, which led me to > the battery aH issue. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Sun, May 18, 2025, 8:11 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> That's not a bad idea. But it is one more thing to potentially go wrong >> and have to maintain. >> >> >> I just discovered something else with a parallel AIO and SA setup. Really >> it's more of an inverter issue. The inverters have wildly inaccurate SOC >> values if you are doing open loop. You have to divide the battery aH >> setting by the number of inverters you have for accurate numbers, at least >> on the firmware I have. I noticed on this triple setup that when the >> batteries were depleted about 80% (20% SOC), that the inverters reported a >> SOC of 73%. Each inverter only sees the aH that they consume individually >> and deduct that from 100%. >> >> If you are using the inverter values for SOC in SA, you need to set the >> aH in the inverters to the proportional share of the battery capacity. >> >> This is something I believe Midnite needs to fix unless it has already >> been addressed in a firmware upgrade. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Fri, May 16, 2025, 9:53 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason >>> >>> How about you install a 12v battery charged from the inverter to power >>> the device which would give you back up on backup. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 16, 2025, at 12:58 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> But the upside is it doesn't rely on the cloud, so historical data is >>> stored locally, even in the event of a system shutdown (if you power the Pi >>> device from the battery DC bus). That doesn't do much good if the battery >>> BMS turns off, of course, but it's nice to continue logging data even if >>> there is no Internet connection. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> On Fri, May 16, 2025, 12:48 AM Brett Stigile via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Overall I like Solar Assistant as well. Be aware it is not cloud >>>> based. Sure it stores locally on the Pi, that’s great. But, if the >>>> internet is down you are blind. Not supper helpful for remote sites if you >>>> can’t look through the data a see if there was a potential issue or if the >>>> internet is just down. >>>> >>>> >>>> Brett Stigile >>>> Owner/Renewable Energy Electrician >>>> 503-317-7950 >>>> brett at oregonsunwrangler.com >>>> >>>> Oregon Sun Wrangler LLC >>>> CCB: 240661 >>>> License No: 66LRT >>>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional Certification >>>> #PV 100414-008123 >>>> >>>> > On May 15, 2025, at 1:05 PM, >>>> re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >>>> > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the >>>> Subject: line to the exact original, and please edit out any extraneous >>>> lines from the quoted message. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Today's Topics: >>>> > >>>> > 1. Re: EG4 Praise (Maverick Brown) >>>> > 2. Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Jason Szumlanski) >>>> > 3. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (William Bryce) >>>> > 4. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Kirpal Khalsa) >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > >>>> > Message: 1 >>>> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 08:14:41 -0500 >>>> > From: Maverick Brown >>>> > To: RE-wrenches >>>> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Praise >>>> > Message-ID: >>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>> > >>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> > URL: < >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250515/1d46c98a/attachment-0001.htm >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------ >>>> > >>>> > Message: 2 >>>> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 11:37:53 -0400 >>>> > From: Jason Szumlanski >>>> > To: RE-wrenches >>>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >>>> > Message-ID: >>>> > >>> WKpey3Q at mail.gmail.com> >>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> > >>>> > I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It >>>> was >>>> > surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I >>>> had >>>> > hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three >>>> inverters' >>>> > instant and historical data while providing real time individual >>>> inverter >>>> > data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per >>>> inverter, >>>> > but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>>> > usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>>> > >>>> > If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me >>>> off >>>> > list. >>>> > >>>> > The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >>>> > directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from >>>> Amazon. >>>> > I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it >>>> directly to >>>> > my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>>> > >>>> > Jason Szumlanski >>>> > Florida Solar Design Group >>>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> > URL: < >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250515/b8d7966f/attachment-0001.htm >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------ >>>> > >>>> > Message: 3 >>>> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 12:20:45 -0400 >>>> > From: William Bryce >>>> > To: RE-wrenches >>>> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >>>> > Message-ID: >>>> > < >>>> CAEQmjP4UqH9GCFGHt4MkEVtY71FbfOfh4o7gCaBUQbRj67Omog at mail.gmail.com> >>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> > >>>> > I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will >>>> remove the >>>> > chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of >>>> your >>>> > inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation >>>> from >>>> > others. >>>> > >>>> > With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer >>>> locally. >>>> > >>>> > On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. >>>> > >>>> >> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. >>>> It was >>>> >> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I >>>> had >>>> >> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three >>>> inverters' >>>> >> instant and historical data while providing real time individual >>>> inverter >>>> >> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per >>>> inverter, >>>> >> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>>> >> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>>> >> >>>> >> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact >>>> me off >>>> >> list. >>>> >> >>>> >> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >>>> >> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from >>>> Amazon. >>>> >> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it >>>> directly to >>>> >> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>>> >> >>>> >> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >> >>>> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>> try the >>>> >> other: >>>> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>>> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >> >>>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> > URL: < >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250515/610bc1b7/attachment-0001.htm >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------ >>>> > >>>> > Message: 4 >>>> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 09:50:38 -0700 >>>> > From: Kirpal Khalsa >>>> > To: RE-wrenches >>>> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >>>> > Message-ID: >>>> > < >>>> CAOE7iVGgp1Vxyz-82jpD1LzyW7EUMDNsw-6iBS-KnHjNk4thMg at mail.gmail.com> >>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> > >>>> > Does the Solar Assistant work with Outback gear? >>>> > >>>> > Kirpal >>>> > >>>> > On Thu, May 15, 2025, 9:21?AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>> > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will >>>> remove the >>>> >> chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of >>>> your >>>> >> inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation >>>> from >>>> >> others. >>>> >> >>>> >> With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer >>>> locally. >>>> >> >>>> >> On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. >>>> >> >>>> >> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. >>>> It was >>>> >>> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything >>>> I had >>>> >>> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three >>>> inverters' >>>> >>> instant and historical data while providing real time individual >>>> inverter >>>> >>> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per >>>> inverter, >>>> >>> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>>> >>> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact >>>> me off >>>> >>> list. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi >>>> device >>>> >>> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from >>>> Amazon. >>>> >>> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it >>>> directly to >>>> >>> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_3267.png Type: image/png Size: 230917 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_3266.png Type: image/png Size: 165599 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sun May 18 10:52:37 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 07:52:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow, when do we realize that fork in the road we chose to go down may have been the wrong one? I know there's a phrase to describe needing to augment an inverter with a Cerbo, Chargeverter, and Solar Assistant, but it escapes me. Same with the myriad of tinkering, workarounds, and tweaking Manufacture A's inverter to Manufacture B's batteries. There are a lot of smart minds on this list with the technical prowess to make things work, but what happens when someone like me that's let's just say is a "little slower" gets a call to service such a system and the guy or gal that "got it to work" isn't around, or the comet-like manufacture the likes of Growatt or it's equivalent is no more. I know I do more griping on this list than contribute to the knowledge corpus and it's not that I'm a crank, I think. Right now, it's just that I'm sitting on a dozen requests to build off-grid and GTBB systems and I find myself in a paralysis where I can't recommend a single Hybrid inverter, and for my potential off-grid customers, all that I can recommend is a system where I'm stacking two 3-5kw inverters and many settings require a dongle and PC, Victron. So in the first case, this road seems to have lead to an ever increasing techno-cluster fuck, and in the second, it's traced back to where we were several years ago, but not in a good way. Serious question, What is the challenge in building an SW quality inverter and MPPT that plays nice with most all batteries. Conext came close? If it's a feasible proposition, I know people with the means and interest in these things to make it happen. Michael On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 6:15 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > SA will combine the SOC if the Communication is working properly with the > BMS and the MNS AIO. See attached > > On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 8:28 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I will also mention that SA seems to be pulling the SOC information from >> only the first inverter added to the system, or the one designated as "#1" >> in SA. It is not averaging the SOC pulled from all three inverters. >> >> Another note: I tried the Emulated BMS in SA, and it didn't work. The >> battery graphs were all wrong, only showing that absolute value for current >> rather than showing charge and discharge current. The reported SOC stayed >> pegged at 100%. I went back to using the inverter values, and that is when >> I discovered the SOC was not dropping fast enough in SA, which led me to >> the battery aH issue. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Sun, May 18, 2025, 8:11 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> That's not a bad idea. But it is one more thing to potentially go wrong >>> and have to maintain. >>> >>> >>> I just discovered something else with a parallel AIO and SA setup. >>> Really it's more of an inverter issue. The inverters have wildly inaccurate >>> SOC values if you are doing open loop. You have to divide the battery aH >>> setting by the number of inverters you have for accurate numbers, at least >>> on the firmware I have. I noticed on this triple setup that when the >>> batteries were depleted about 80% (20% SOC), that the inverters reported a >>> SOC of 73%. Each inverter only sees the aH that they consume individually >>> and deduct that from 100%. >>> >>> If you are using the inverter values for SOC in SA, you need to set the >>> aH in the inverters to the proportional share of the battery capacity. >>> >>> This is something I believe Midnite needs to fix unless it has already >>> been addressed in a firmware upgrade. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> On Fri, May 16, 2025, 9:53 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Jason >>>> >>>> How about you install a 12v battery charged from the inverter to power >>>> the device which would give you back up on backup. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 16, 2025, at 12:58 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> But the upside is it doesn't rely on the cloud, so historical data is >>>> stored locally, even in the event of a system shutdown (if you power the Pi >>>> device from the battery DC bus). That doesn't do much good if the battery >>>> BMS turns off, of course, but it's nice to continue logging data even if >>>> there is no Internet connection. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> On Fri, May 16, 2025, 12:48 AM Brett Stigile via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Overall I like Solar Assistant as well. Be aware it is not cloud >>>>> based. Sure it stores locally on the Pi, that’s great. But, if the >>>>> internet is down you are blind. Not supper helpful for remote sites if you >>>>> can’t look through the data a see if there was a potential issue or if the >>>>> internet is just down. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brett Stigile >>>>> Owner/Renewable Energy Electrician >>>>> 503-317-7950 >>>>> brett at oregonsunwrangler.com >>>>> >>>>> Oregon Sun Wrangler LLC >>>>> CCB: 240661 >>>>> License No: 66LRT >>>>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional Certification >>>>> #PV 100414-008123 >>>>> >>>>> > On May 15, 2025, at 1:05 PM, >>>>> re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >>>>> > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>>> > >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>>> > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > You can reach the person managing the list at >>>>> > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>>> > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the >>>>> Subject: line to the exact original, and please edit out any extraneous >>>>> lines from the quoted message. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Today's Topics: >>>>> > >>>>> > 1. Re: EG4 Praise (Maverick Brown) >>>>> > 2. Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Jason Szumlanski) >>>>> > 3. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (William Bryce) >>>>> > 4. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Kirpal Khalsa) >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> > >>>>> > Message: 1 >>>>> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 08:14:41 -0500 >>>>> > From: Maverick Brown >>>>> > To: RE-wrenches >>>>> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Praise >>>>> > Message-ID: >>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>>> > >>>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>>> > URL: < >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250515/1d46c98a/attachment-0001.htm >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > ------------------------------ >>>>> > >>>>> > Message: 2 >>>>> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 11:37:53 -0400 >>>>> > From: Jason Szumlanski >>>>> > To: RE-wrenches >>>>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >>>>> > Message-ID: >>>>> > >>>> WKpey3Q at mail.gmail.com> >>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>>> > >>>>> > I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. >>>>> It was >>>>> > surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I >>>>> had >>>>> > hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three >>>>> inverters' >>>>> > instant and historical data while providing real time individual >>>>> inverter >>>>> > data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per >>>>> inverter, >>>>> > but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>>>> > usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>>>> > >>>>> > If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact >>>>> me off >>>>> > list. >>>>> > >>>>> > The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >>>>> > directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from >>>>> Amazon. >>>>> > I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it >>>>> directly to >>>>> > my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>>>> > >>>>> > Jason Szumlanski >>>>> > Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>>> > URL: < >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250515/b8d7966f/attachment-0001.htm >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > ------------------------------ >>>>> > >>>>> > Message: 3 >>>>> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 12:20:45 -0400 >>>>> > From: William Bryce >>>>> > To: RE-wrenches >>>>> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >>>>> > Message-ID: >>>>> > < >>>>> CAEQmjP4UqH9GCFGHt4MkEVtY71FbfOfh4o7gCaBUQbRj67Omog at mail.gmail.com> >>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>>> > >>>>> > I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will >>>>> remove the >>>>> > chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of >>>>> your >>>>> > inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation >>>>> from >>>>> > others. >>>>> > >>>>> > With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer >>>>> locally. >>>>> > >>>>> > On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. >>>>> > >>>>> >> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. >>>>> It was >>>>> >> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything >>>>> I had >>>>> >> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three >>>>> inverters' >>>>> >> instant and historical data while providing real time individual >>>>> inverter >>>>> >> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per >>>>> inverter, >>>>> >> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>>>> >> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact >>>>> me off >>>>> >> list. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi >>>>> device >>>>> >> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from >>>>> Amazon. >>>>> >> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it >>>>> directly to >>>>> >> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> >> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >> >>>>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> >> >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >> >>>>> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>> try the >>>>> >> other: >>>>> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >> >>>>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>>> > URL: < >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250515/610bc1b7/attachment-0001.htm >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > ------------------------------ >>>>> > >>>>> > Message: 4 >>>>> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 09:50:38 -0700 >>>>> > From: Kirpal Khalsa >>>>> > To: RE-wrenches >>>>> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >>>>> > Message-ID: >>>>> > < >>>>> CAOE7iVGgp1Vxyz-82jpD1LzyW7EUMDNsw-6iBS-KnHjNk4thMg at mail.gmail.com> >>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>>> > >>>>> > Does the Solar Assistant work with Outback gear? >>>>> > >>>>> > Kirpal >>>>> > >>>>> > On Thu, May 15, 2025, 9:21?AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>>> > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will >>>>> remove the >>>>> >> chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of >>>>> your >>>>> >> inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting >>>>> manipulation from >>>>> >> others. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer >>>>> locally. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. >>>>> It was >>>>> >>> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything >>>>> I had >>>>> >>> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three >>>>> inverters' >>>>> >>> instant and historical data while providing real time individual >>>>> inverter >>>>> >>> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per >>>>> inverter, >>>>> >>> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has >>>>> little >>>>> >>> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact >>>>> me off >>>>> >>> list. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi >>>>> device >>>>> >>> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles >>>>> from Amazon. >>>>> >>> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it >>>>> directly to >>>>> >>> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun May 18 11:00:51 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 08:00:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99fe367b49b65b6f6663d463840b53cb@sti.net> It is that water sound spiraling down. Even Powerwall3 still does not have a gen input. Going to church to pray for some help! Stay safe Michael ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-05-18 7:52 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wow, when do we realize that fork in the road we chose to go down may > have been the wrong one? I know there's a phrase to describe needing to > augment an inverter with a Cerbo, Chargeverter, and Solar Assistant, > but it escapes me. > > Same with the myriad of tinkering, workarounds, and tweaking > Manufacture A's inverter to Manufacture B's batteries. There are a lot > of smart minds on this list with the technical prowess to make things > work, but what happens when someone like me that's let's just say is a > "little slower" gets a call to service such a system and the guy or gal > that "got it to work" isn't around, or the comet-like manufacture the > likes of Growatt or it's equivalent is no more. > > I know I do more griping on this list than contribute to the knowledge > corpus and it's not that I'm a crank, I think. Right now, it's just > that I'm sitting on a dozen requests to build off-grid and GTBB systems > and I find myself in a paralysis where I can't recommend a single > Hybrid inverter, and for my potential off-grid customers, all that I > can recommend is a system where I'm stacking two 3-5kw inverters and > many settings require a dongle and PC, Victron. > > So in the first case, this road seems to have lead to an ever > increasing techno-cluster fuck, and in the second, it's traced back to > where we were several years ago, but not in a good way. > > Serious question, What is the challenge in building an SW quality > inverter and MPPT that plays nice with most all batteries. Conext came > close? If it's a feasible proposition, I know people with the means and > interest in these things to make it happen. > > Michael > > On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 6:15 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: > SA will combine the SOC if the Communication is working properly with > the BMS and the MNS AIO. See attached > > On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 8:28 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I will also mention that SA seems to be pulling the SOC information > from only the first inverter added to the system, or the one designated > as "#1" in SA. It is not averaging the SOC pulled from all three > inverters. > > Another note: I tried the Emulated BMS in SA, and it didn't work. The > battery graphs were all wrong, only showing that absolute value for > current rather than showing charge and discharge current. The reported > SOC stayed pegged at 100%. I went back to using the inverter values, > and that is when I discovered the SOC was not dropping fast enough in > SA, which led me to the battery aH issue. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Sun, May 18, 2025, 8:11 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > That's not a bad idea. But it is one more thing to potentially go wrong > and have to maintain. > > I just discovered something else with a parallel AIO and SA setup. > Really it's more of an inverter issue. The inverters have wildly > inaccurate SOC values if you are doing open loop. You have to divide > the battery aH setting by the number of inverters you have for accurate > numbers, at least on the firmware I have. I noticed on this triple > setup that when the batteries were depleted about 80% (20% SOC), that > the inverters reported a SOC of 73%. Each inverter only sees the aH > that they consume individually and deduct that from 100%. > > If you are using the inverter values for SOC in SA, you need to set the > aH in the inverters to the proportional share of the battery capacity. > > This is something I believe Midnite needs to fix unless it has already > been addressed in a firmware upgrade. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Fri, May 16, 2025, 9:53 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Jason > > How about you install a 12v battery charged from the inverter to power > the device which would give you back up on backup. > > On May 16, 2025, at 12:58 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > But the upside is it doesn't rely on the cloud, so historical data is > stored locally, even in the event of a system shutdown (if you power > the Pi device from the battery DC bus). That doesn't do much good if > the battery BMS turns off, of course, but it's nice to continue logging > data even if there is no Internet connection. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Fri, May 16, 2025, 12:48 AM Brett Stigile via RE-wrenches > wrote: Overall I like Solar > Assistant as well. Be aware it is not cloud based. Sure it stores > locally on the Pi, that's great. But, if the internet is down you are > blind. Not supper helpful for remote sites if you can't look through > the data a see if there was a potential issue or if the internet is > just down. > > Brett Stigile > Owner/Renewable Energy Electrician > 503-317-7950 > brett at oregonsunwrangler.com > > Oregon Sun Wrangler LLC > CCB: 240661 > License No: 66LRT > NABCEP PV Installation Professional Certification > #PV 100414-008123 > >> On May 15, 2025, at 1:05 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >> wrote: >> >> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >> >> >> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the >> Subject: line to the exact original, and please edit out any >> extraneous lines from the quoted message. >> >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: EG4 Praise (Maverick Brown) >> 2. Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Jason Szumlanski) >> 3. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (William Bryce) >> 4. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Kirpal Khalsa) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 08:14:41 -0500 >> From: Maverick Brown >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Praise >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 11:37:53 -0400 >> From: Jason Szumlanski >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It >> was >> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I >> had >> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three >> inverters' >> instant and historical data while providing real time individual >> inverter >> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per >> inverter, >> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >> >> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me >> off >> list. >> >> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from >> Amazon. >> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly >> to >> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 12:20:45 -0400 >> From: William Bryce >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will remove >> the >> chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of >> your >> inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation >> from >> others. >> >> With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer >> locally. >> >> On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. >> >>> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It >>> was >>> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I >>> had >>> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three >>> inverters' >>> instant and historical data while providing real time individual >>> inverter >>> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per >>> inverter, >>> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>> >>> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me >>> off >>> list. >>> >>> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >>> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from >>> Amazon. >>> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it >>> directly to >>> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the >>> other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 09:50:38 -0700 >> From: Kirpal Khalsa >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Does the Solar Assistant work with Outback gear? >> >> Kirpal >> >> On Thu, May 15, 2025, 9:21?AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will >>> remove the >>> chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of >>> your >>> inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation >>> from >>> others. >>> >>> With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer >>> locally. >>> >>> On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. >>> >>> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. >>>> It was >>>> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I >>>> had >>>> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three >>>> inverters' >>>> instant and historical data while providing real time individual >>>> inverter >>>> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per >>>> inverter, >>>> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>>> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>>> >>>> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact >>>> me off >>>> list. >>>> >>>> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi >>>> device >>>> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from >>>> Amazon. >>>> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it >>>> directly to >>>> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 318e2713.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 130962 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sun May 18 11:09:35 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (Todd Cory) Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 08:09:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <196e3f17798.284a.4317fda5bda71af373de9c45c94f08a7@finestplanet.com> I keep hearing all these people hand ringing the "newer better" equipment with all the associated problems and I shake my head at why people don't choose small and simple? Our entire grid tied homestead is zero energy with only 7 kW of solar (and that includes our mini split for winter heating and charging our electric car) and a ~20 year old, 48 volt outback inverter with flooded and lead calcium batteries which should easily go 30 years with basically no maintenance. Maybe I'm just an old fuck but what I have works really well and I didn't have to reinvent the wheel either. On May 18, 2025 7:54:33 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wow, when do we realize that fork in the road we chose to go down may have > been the wrong one? I know there's a phrase to describe needing to augment > an inverter with a Cerbo, Chargeverter, and Solar Assistant, but it > escapes me. > > Same with the myriad of tinkering, workarounds, and tweaking Manufacture > A's inverter to Manufacture B's batteries. There are a lot of smart minds > on this list with the technical prowess to make things work, but what > happens when someone like me that's let's just say is a "little slower" > gets a call to service such a system and the guy or gal that "got it to > work" isn't around, or the comet-like manufacture the likes of Growatt or > it's equivalent is no more. > > I know I do more griping on this list than contribute to the knowledge > corpus and it's not that I'm a crank, I think. Right now, it's just that > I'm sitting on a dozen requests to build off-grid and GTBB systems and I > find myself in a paralysis where I can't recommend a single Hybrid > inverter, and for my potential off-grid customers, all that I can recommend > is a system where I'm stacking two 3-5kw inverters and many settings > require a dongle and PC, Victron. > > So in the first case, this road seems to have lead to an ever increasing > techno-cluster fuck, and in the second, it's traced back to where we were > several years ago, but not in a good way. > > Serious question, What is the challenge in building an SW quality inverter > and MPPT that plays nice with most all batteries. Conext came close? If > it's a feasible proposition, I know people with the means and interest in > these things to make it happen. > > Michael > > > > On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 6:15 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: > SA will combine the SOC if the Communication is working properly with the > BMS and the MNS AIO. See attached > > On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 8:28 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I will also mention that SA seems to be pulling the SOC information from > only the first inverter added to the system, or the one designated as "#1" > in SA. It is not averaging the SOC pulled from all three inverters. > > Another note: I tried the Emulated BMS in SA, and it didn't work. The > battery graphs were all wrong, only showing that absolute value for current > rather than showing charge and discharge current. The reported SOC stayed > pegged at 100%. I went back to using the inverter values, and that is when > I discovered the SOC was not dropping fast enough in SA, which led me to > the battery aH issue. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Sun, May 18, 2025, 8:11 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > That's not a bad idea. But it is one more thing to potentially go wrong and > have to maintain. > > > I just discovered something else with a parallel AIO and SA setup. Really > it's more of an inverter issue. The inverters have wildly inaccurate SOC > values if you are doing open loop. You have to divide the battery aH > setting by the number of inverters you have for accurate numbers, at least > on the firmware I have. I noticed on this triple setup that when the > batteries were depleted about 80% (20% SOC), that the inverters reported a > SOC of 73%. Each inverter only sees the aH that they consume individually > and deduct that from 100%. > > If you are using the inverter values for SOC in SA, you need to set the aH > in the inverters to the proportional share of the battery capacity. > > This is something I believe Midnite needs to fix unless it has already been > addressed in a firmware upgrade. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Fri, May 16, 2025, 9:53 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Jason > > How about you install a 12v battery charged from the inverter to power the > device which would give you back up on backup. > > > > >> On May 16, 2025, at 12:58 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> But the upside is it doesn't rely on the cloud, so historical data is >> stored locally, even in the event of a system shutdown (if you power the Pi >> device from the battery DC bus). That doesn't do much good if the battery >> BMS turns off, of course, but it's nice to continue logging data even if >> there is no Internet connection. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Fri, May 16, 2025, 12:48 AM Brett Stigile via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> Overall I like Solar Assistant as well. Be aware it is not cloud based. >> Sure it stores locally on the Pi, that’s great. But, if the internet is >> down you are blind. Not supper helpful for remote sites if you can’t look >> through the data a see if there was a potential issue or if the internet is >> just down. >> >> >> Brett Stigile >> Owner/Renewable Energy Electrician >> 503-317-7950 >> brett at oregonsunwrangler.com >> >> Oregon Sun Wrangler LLC >> CCB: 240661 >> License No: 66LRT >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional Certification >> #PV 100414-008123 >> >>> On May 15, 2025, at 1:05 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: >>> >>> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >>> >>> >>> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: >>> line to the exact original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from >>> the quoted message. >>> >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: EG4 Praise (Maverick Brown) >>> 2. Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Jason Szumlanski) >>> 3. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (William Bryce) >>> 4. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Kirpal Khalsa) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 08:14:41 -0500 >>> From: Maverick Brown >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Praise >>> Message-ID: >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>> >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 11:37:53 -0400 >>> From: Jason Szumlanski >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It was >>> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I had >>> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three inverters' >>> instant and historical data while providing real time individual inverter >>> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per inverter, >>> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>> >>> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me off >>> list. >>> >>> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >>> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from Amazon. >>> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly to >>> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 3 >>> Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 12:20:45 -0400 >>> From: William Bryce >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will remove the >>> chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of your >>> inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation from >>> others. >>> >>> With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer locally. >>> >>> On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. >>> >>>> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It was >>>> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I had >>>> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three inverters' >>>> instant and historical data while providing real time individual inverter >>>> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per inverter, >>>> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>>> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>>> >>>> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me off >>>> list. >>>> >>>> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >>>> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from Amazon. >>>> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly to >>>> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >>>> other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 4 >>> Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 09:50:38 -0700 >>> From: Kirpal Khalsa >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> Does the Solar Assistant work with Outback gear? >>> >>> Kirpal >>> >>> On Thu, May 15, 2025, 9:21?AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will remove the >>>> chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of your >>>> inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation from >>>> others. >>>> >>>> With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer locally. >>>> >>>> On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It was >>>>> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I had >>>>> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three inverters' >>>>> instant and historical data while providing real time individual inverter >>>>> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per inverter, >>>>> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>>>> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me off >>>>> list. >>>>> >>>>> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >>>>> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from Amazon. >>>>> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly to >>>>> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric Inc > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 1116835 > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent with Aqua Mail for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sun May 18 12:01:05 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 16:01:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: <196e3f17798.284a.4317fda5bda71af373de9c45c94f08a7@finestplanet.com> References: <196e3f17798.284a.4317fda5bda71af373de9c45c94f08a7@finestplanet.com> Message-ID: I am with you the "basic" Inverter with a reliable 2 wire gen start, separate CC(s), I keep a spare FM68, 80, & 100 CC for lightning considerations & me & my clients. That said, Its all, Outback power equipment & I may be screwed there If they do not come back to manufacturing life..... There is a lot to be said not having AIO when you are off grid. I have a series of Solark projects out there with Pytes batteries & so far fingers crossed. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Todd Cory via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 15:09:35 +0000 Size: 77123 URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Sun May 18 12:38:15 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 12:38:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: <196e3f17798.284a.4317fda5bda71af373de9c45c94f08a7@finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Dana I have used and installed plenty of Rosies Inverters, Hawks bay. and Barcelona's Charge controllers, and they are rock solid. They look like the older Outback gear because the same engineers designed them. So why stay with outdated older technology that will be RE-manufactured by who knows who? This gear is Made in the US, and is fully supported! No inverter currently offered, (240v single phase < 12Kw) can match the size, weight, and surge power of a Rosie inverter. SiC FET technology is the future, and it is available now. On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 12:01 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I am with you the “basic” Inverter with a reliable 2 wire gen start, > separate CC(s), I keep a spare FM68, 80, & 100 CC for lightning > considerations & me & my clients. That said, Its all, Outback power > equipment & I may be screwed there If they do not come back to > manufacturing life….. There is a lot to be said not having AIO when you are > off grid. > > > > I have a series of Solark projects out there with Pytes batteries & so > far fingers crossed. > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sun May 18 14:35:48 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 11:35:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: <196e3f17798.284a.4317fda5bda71af373de9c45c94f08a7@finestplanet.com> Message-ID: I may have to take another look at the Rosie/BARC/HW. The downsides that steered me away from them at the time I was considering using them are: No closed loop communication and no remote monitoring. I can live without the remote monitoring, but I really really like Discover batteries, and with those, I can at least see SOC with Lynk Cloud. On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 9:39 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Dana > > I have used and installed plenty of Rosies Inverters, Hawks bay. and > Barcelona's Charge controllers, and they are rock solid. They look like > the older Outback gear because the same engineers designed them. So why > stay with outdated older technology that will be RE-manufactured by who > knows who? This gear is Made in the US, and is fully supported! No inverter > currently offered, (240v single phase < 12Kw) can match the size, weight, > and surge power of a Rosie inverter. SiC FET technology is the future, and > it is available now. > > > > On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 12:01 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I am with you the “basic” Inverter with a reliable 2 wire gen start, >> separate CC(s), I keep a spare FM68, 80, & 100 CC for lightning >> considerations & me & my clients. That said, Its all, Outback power >> equipment & I may be screwed there If they do not come back to >> manufacturing life….. There is a lot to be said not having AIO when you are >> off grid. >> >> >> >> I have a series of Solark projects out there with Pytes batteries & so >> far fingers crossed. >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> >> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >> >> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >> >> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >> >> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun May 18 16:16:24 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 13:16:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: <196e3f17798.284a.4317fda5bda71af373de9c45c94f08a7@finestplanet.com> Message-ID: I need monitoring but like the rest on Rosie. Is remote monitoring in the future for multisite? Below are 2 pages of Discover systems. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [3]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [4] [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-05-18 11:35 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I may have to take another look at the Rosie/BARC/HW. The downsides > that steered me away from them at the time I was considering using them > are: No closed loop communication and no remote monitoring. I can live > without the remote monitoring, but I really really like Discover > batteries, and with those, I can at least see SOC with Lynk Cloud. > > On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 9:39 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Dana > I have used and installed plenty of Rosies Inverters, Hawks bay. and > Barcelona's Charge controllers, and they are rock solid. They look > like the older Outback gear because the same engineers designed them. > So why stay with outdated older technology that will be RE-manufactured > by who knows who? This gear is Made in the US, and is fully supported! > No inverter currently offered, (240v single phase < 12Kw) can match the > size, weight, and surge power of a Rosie inverter. SiC FET technology > is the future, and it is available now. > > On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 12:01 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I am with you the "basic" Inverter with a reliable 2 wire gen start, > separate CC(s), I keep a spare FM68, 80, & 100 CC for lightning > considerations & me & my clients. That said, Its all, Outback power > equipment & I may be screwed there If they do not come back to > manufacturing life..... There is a lot to be said not having AIO when > you are off grid. > > I have a series of Solark projects out there with Pytes batteries & so > far fingers crossed. > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com [1] www.solarwork.com [2] > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!"_ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://greatsolarworks.com [2] http://www.solarwork.com/ [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 284391ac.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 134370 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 18 16:24:49 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 14:24:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3432D8F2-CD7D-4484-9CEA-48844F4A530C@gmail.com> I am thinking more and more that since the OEMS can’t get the communication shit together, it looks like a 3rd party like SA is needed and it’s here. so far I haven’t needed it but I bet I will thanks everyone jay > On May 18, 2025, at 7:13 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote: > > SA will combine the SOC if the Communication is working properly with the BMS and the MNS AIO. See attached > > On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 8:28 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> I will also mention that SA seems to be pulling the SOC information from only the first inverter added to the system, or the one designated as "#1" in SA. It is not averaging the SOC pulled from all three inverters. >> >> Another note: I tried the Emulated BMS in SA, and it didn't work. The battery graphs were all wrong, only showing that absolute value for current rather than showing charge and discharge current. The reported SOC stayed pegged at 100%. I went back to using the inverter values, and that is when I discovered the SOC was not dropping fast enough in SA, which led me to the battery aH issue. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Sun, May 18, 2025, 8:11 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: >>> That's not a bad idea. But it is one more thing to potentially go wrong and have to maintain. >>> >>> >>> I just discovered something else with a parallel AIO and SA setup. Really it's more of an inverter issue. The inverters have wildly inaccurate SOC values if you are doing open loop. You have to divide the battery aH setting by the number of inverters you have for accurate numbers, at least on the firmware I have. I noticed on this triple setup that when the batteries were depleted about 80% (20% SOC), that the inverters reported a SOC of 73%. Each inverter only sees the aH that they consume individually and deduct that from 100%. >>> >>> If you are using the inverter values for SOC in SA, you need to set the aH in the inverters to the proportional share of the battery capacity. >>> >>> This is something I believe Midnite needs to fix unless it has already been addressed in a firmware upgrade. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> On Fri, May 16, 2025, 9:53 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> Hi Jason >>>> >>>> How about you install a 12v battery charged from the inverter to power the device which would give you back up on backup. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 16, 2025, at 12:58 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> But the upside is it doesn't rely on the cloud, so historical data is stored locally, even in the event of a system shutdown (if you power the Pi device from the battery DC bus). That doesn't do much good if the battery BMS turns off, of course, but it's nice to continue logging data even if there is no Internet connection. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, May 16, 2025, 12:48 AM Brett Stigile via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> Overall I like Solar Assistant as well. Be aware it is not cloud based. Sure it stores locally on the Pi, that’s great. But, if the internet is down you are blind. Not supper helpful for remote sites if you can’t look through the data a see if there was a potential issue or if the internet is just down. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Brett Stigile >>>>>> Owner/Renewable Energy Electrician >>>>>> 503-317-7950 >>>>>> brett at oregonsunwrangler.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Oregon Sun Wrangler LLC >>>>>> CCB: 240661 >>>>>> License No: 66LRT >>>>>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional Certification >>>>>> #PV 100414-008123 >>>>>> >>>>>> > On May 15, 2025, at 1:05 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >>>>>> > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>>>> > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > You can reach the person managing the list at >>>>>> > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>>>> > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the exact original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Today's Topics: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > 1. Re: EG4 Praise (Maverick Brown) >>>>>> > 2. Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Jason Szumlanski) >>>>>> > 3. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (William Bryce) >>>>>> > 4. Re: Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO (Kirpal Khalsa) >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Message: 1 >>>>>> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 08:14:41 -0500 >>>>>> > From: Maverick Brown > >>>>>> > To: RE-wrenches > >>>>>> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Praise >>>>>> > Message-ID: > >>>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>>>> > >>>>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>>>> > URL: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > ------------------------------ >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Message: 2 >>>>>> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 11:37:53 -0400 >>>>>> > From: Jason Szumlanski > >>>>>> > To: RE-wrenches > >>>>>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >>>>>> > Message-ID: >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It was >>>>>> > surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I had >>>>>> > hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three inverters' >>>>>> > instant and historical data while providing real time individual inverter >>>>>> > data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per inverter, >>>>>> > but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>>>>> > usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me off >>>>>> > list. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >>>>>> > directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from Amazon. >>>>>> > I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly to >>>>>> > my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> > Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>>>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>>>> > URL: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > ------------------------------ >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Message: 3 >>>>>> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 12:20:45 -0400 >>>>>> > From: William Bryce > >>>>>> > To: RE-wrenches > >>>>>> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >>>>>> > Message-ID: >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will remove the >>>>>> > chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of your >>>>>> > inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation from >>>>>> > others. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer locally. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It was >>>>>> >> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I had >>>>>> >> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three inverters' >>>>>> >> instant and historical data while providing real time individual inverter >>>>>> >> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per inverter, >>>>>> >> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>>>>> >> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me off >>>>>> >> list. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >>>>>> >> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from Amazon. >>>>>> >> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly to >>>>>> >> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> >> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >>>>>> >> other: >>>>>> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>>>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>>>> > URL: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > ------------------------------ >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Message: 4 >>>>>> > Date: Thu, 15 May 2025 09:50:38 -0700 >>>>>> > From: Kirpal Khalsa > >>>>>> > To: RE-wrenches > >>>>>> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO >>>>>> > Message-ID: >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Does the Solar Assistant work with Outback gear? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Kirpal >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Thu, May 15, 2025, 9:21?AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> I highly recommend using SA with ALL Asian inverters. This will remove the >>>>>> >> chance of a SolArk screen of death bricking and locking you out of your >>>>>> >> inverter, and also remove any chance of data or setting manipulation from >>>>>> >> others. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> With SA, ALL the data is served and stored on the RPie computer locally. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> On the MNS AIO, you can run the Dongle and the SA at the same time. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> On Thu, May 15, 2025 at 11:38?AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>> I just got Solar Assistant up and running with my triple AIO site. It was >>>>>> >>> surprisingly easy. I think I am in data heaven. This is everything I had >>>>>> >>> hoped for from the Midnite Pro app. It consolidates all three inverters' >>>>>> >>> instant and historical data while providing real time individual inverter >>>>>> >>> data as well. I'm not sure if I can get the historical data per inverter, >>>>>> >>> but that is available through the Midnite app anyway, and has little >>>>>> >>> usefulness in a multi-inverter environment. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> If anyone needs tips on how to get this done, feel free to contact me off >>>>>> >>> list. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> The short answer is I purchased a preloaded Solar Assistant Pi device >>>>>> >>> directly from Solar Assistant, and three USB to RS-485 dongles from Amazon. >>>>>> >>> I got the Pi device with the DC power supply and connected it directly to >>>>>> >>> my battery bus so it stays on even if the inverters shut down. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Sun May 18 17:56:10 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 17:56:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant and Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: <196e3f17798.284a.4317fda5bda71af373de9c45c94f08a7@finestplanet.com> Message-ID: The Rosie, Little Rosie, Barcelona, and Hawks Bay can all be monitored, and real soon *controlled* by SA without any cloud. Solar Asistant is the Cloud. The Rosie and Little Rosie can all be used with any battery that supports the Pylon protocall. So if you are tired of all the ESS restrictions and just need grid interactive (self Use) or OFF Grid then this gear is extremely rugged. Have installed in both HOT and surer cold locations with no issues. I highly recommend them and my house was powered by the Rosie for years before I switched to stacked AIO's On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 2:36 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I may have to take another look at the Rosie/BARC/HW. The downsides that > steered me away from them at the time I was considering using them are: No > closed loop communication and no remote monitoring. I can live without the > remote monitoring, but I really really like Discover batteries, and with > those, I can at least see SOC with Lynk Cloud. > > On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 9:39 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Dana >> >> I have used and installed plenty of Rosies Inverters, Hawks bay. and >> Barcelona's Charge controllers, and they are rock solid. They look like >> the older Outback gear because the same engineers designed them. So why >> stay with outdated older technology that will be RE-manufactured by who >> knows who? This gear is Made in the US, and is fully supported! No inverter >> currently offered, (240v single phase < 12Kw) can match the size, weight, >> and surge power of a Rosie inverter. SiC FET technology is the future, and >> it is available now. >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 18, 2025 at 12:01 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I am with you the “basic” Inverter with a reliable 2 wire gen start, >>> separate CC(s), I keep a spare FM68, 80, & 100 CC for lightning >>> considerations & me & my clients. That said, Its all, Outback power >>> equipment & I may be screwed there If they do not come back to >>> manufacturing life….. There is a lot to be said not having AIO when you are >>> off grid. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have a series of Solark projects out there with Pytes batteries & so >>> far fingers crossed. >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >>> >>> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >>> >>> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >>> >>> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue May 20 09:46:36 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 20 May 2025 09:46:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Reducers Message-ID: <64c2d49342e2c6dea37ed429edf078aa@redwoodalliance.org> Shopping for a 48 V to 12 V reducer, the price ranges are vast. Does anyone know why a Victorn [1] 360 W reducer costs over $200 while a Homelylife [2] 360 W reducer costs $30? Is there some major advantage to using an expensive unit? Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- Links: ------ [1] https://bluemarine.com/products/victron-orion-tr-48-12-48-24-48-48?variant=45512497758504&country=US&currency=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&srsltid=AfmBOoqyqfIvkJ5hZOUsUUTtwIWwrgyQfrsh4qSt8EeZscc_DA2WxcXNa6c&gQT=2 [2] https://www.amazon.com/Voltage-Regulator-Converter-Waterproof-Transformer/dp/B08RRRD78K?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&smid=A3GYM455B71YGR&gQT=1&th=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue May 20 10:03:00 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 20 May 2025 09:03:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Reducers In-Reply-To: <64c2d49342e2c6dea37ed429edf078aa@redwoodalliance.org> References: <64c2d49342e2c6dea37ed429edf078aa@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <04C7CC76-183D-46AC-875A-21E03FCB0149@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Fri May 23 18:55:05 2025 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 23 May 2025 22:55:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Reducers In-Reply-To: <04C7CC76-183D-46AC-875A-21E03FCB0149@mavericksolar.com> References: <64c2d49342e2c6dea37ed429edf078aa@redwoodalliance.org> <04C7CC76-183D-46AC-875A-21E03FCB0149@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: You might consider the Traco Power 300w for only $698.90…. 😊 TEQ 300-4812WIR Traco Power | Power Supplies - External/Internal (Off-Board) | DigiKey 19 to 75 v input Very clean wave form, high temperature…bomb proof. Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri May 23 17:25:43 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 23 May 2025 17:25:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Skybox "PCS - NPC Gate Fault" error Message-ID: Hey, Anyone know what this error is about? Yes, it's on my lone Skybox install, operating as a grid-tie inverter. Primary symptom is no battery charging from the grid. Any clues appreciated. Luckily I do have OpticsRE up and running at the site. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Sat May 24 07:18:22 2025 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Richard Nicol) Date: Sat, 24 May 2025 07:18:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Skybox "PCS - NPC Gate Fault" error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1DE18DC9-51A1-4522-BEE6-EC8727C82F02@solartechvt.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Sat May 24 09:04:13 2025 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 24 May 2025 13:04:13 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Reducers In-Reply-To: References: <64c2d49342e2c6dea37ed429edf078aa@redwoodalliance.org> <04C7CC76-183D-46AC-875A-21E03FCB0149@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: At $110 this Mean Well 350W is a good value, you won’t be throwing it in the trash any tome soon: SD-350C-12 MEAN WELL USA Inc. | Power Supplies - External/Internal (Off-Board) | DigiKey Mark From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mark Frye via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, May 23, 2025 3:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Mark Frye Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Reducers You might consider the Traco Power 300w for only $698.90…. 😊 TEQ 300-4812WIR Traco Power | Power Supplies - External/Internal (Off-Board) | DigiKey 19 to 75 v input Very clean wave form, high temperature…bomb proof. Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat May 24 13:01:08 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 24 May 2025 13:01:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB Skybox "PCS - NPC Gate Fault" error In-Reply-To: <1DE18DC9-51A1-4522-BEE6-EC8727C82F02@solartechvt.com> References: <1DE18DC9-51A1-4522-BEE6-EC8727C82F02@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: Thanks. I got the batteries charging again from grid power by rebooting the Skybox. They were down to 25% SOC from 100% six days ago when the problem first started. The error cleared and started charging right away. >From what you’ve said I assume The error will return at some point. In the meantime, I’ll talk to my customer about replacing this crazy inverter. I never did like it much anyway. I found very limited info on this error online, but it was pretty much consensus that it’s some sort of internal malfunction which can’t be corrected. Hopefully OpticsRE will stay up so I can keep a close eye on it remotely. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Sat, May 24, 2025 at 7:18 AM Richard Nicol wrote: > Hi Kirk > My understanding is the NPC Gate Error essentially cannot be resolved. The > only remedy is noticing it and resetting the inverter. The inverter will > very slowly discharge the battery when it occurs and if they sink below > 46v the inverter will not initiate a charge, even after it’s been reset and > the NPC Gate fault cleared. There are a couple other faults the Skybox is > known for with the same result, PCS-DAB Battery Fault is a common one as > well. > I installed 4 Skyboxes and ended up replacing them on my dime. They are > horrible, apparently Outback contracted out the design and didn’t test > adequately before releasing. They attempted to patch poor design with > firmware improvements but were not successful. > I have one at my house that I pulled from a customer and keep a close eye > on. The less stable the utility feed the more likely it seems that you see > these faults. Maybe hardware installed on the utility feed could help > smooth grid outages, even very short dips, that would the allow the Skybox > to do its job. It’s frustrating to have a battery back up inverter fail > precisely when it’s needed. > Rich > Sent from my iPad > > On May 23, 2025, at 8:16 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Hey, > > Anyone know what this error is about? Yes, it's on my lone Skybox install, > operating as a grid-tie inverter. > Primary symptom is no battery charging from the grid. Any clues > appreciated. > > Luckily I do have OpticsRE up and running at the site. > -- > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Tue May 27 00:32:17 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Mon, 26 May 2025 18:32:17 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI6048 AC Coupled with an Old Sunny Boy 4000US Message-ID: Aloha All, I am messing around with a system in our shop just 'cause I wanted to mess around with AC coupled systems at my leisure. This setup is completely off-grid. I have an autoformer between the SB and the SI. I am able to make changes to the parameters on the SB with an old Webbox and a RS485 Piggyback card. The manuals I found online are showing a slightly different set of parameters than what I am seeing in real life. For instance, there is no "country standard" parameter on the SB. And when I make the recommended changes to the parameters that do match up with the manuals, the value ranges on the SB are much tighter so it does not let me enter negative numbers as the manuals are wanting me to set for frequency shifting to work well. I am not in the mood to torch the three Discover 7.4s attached to the SI6048. Makes me think there is a firmware update but SMA's website returned nothing. It is currently running BFR 2.72 and SRR 2.72. The SB is from 2009. Any thoughts on an old (but newer) firmware? Is it even possible to update the firmware on this dinosaur? While I am at it, can any one explain the difference between "PvOnly" and "Gen" for setting 231.05 ExtSrc on the SI6048? The manual is lacking reassuring details. Thanks for entertaining my sadomasochism. Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue May 27 12:30:43 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 27 May 2025 09:30:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI6048/SB4000US In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lou: I have worked hard to understand the Sunny Island. To me it is not that intuitive. As far as I know 231.05 tells the system simply if you have a generator or if you do not have a generator. One needs to consider the Backup mode setting on the Sunny Boy(s). Options are On All or Off. I have tried both and I can’t quantify any difference. If anyone knows please let me know. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Mon, May 26, 2025 at 9:33 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Aloha All, > > I am messing around with a system in our shop just 'cause I wanted to mess > around with AC coupled systems at my leisure. This setup is completely > off-grid. I have an autoformer between the SB and the SI. > > I am able to make changes to the parameters on the SB with an old Webbox > and a RS485 Piggyback card. > > The manuals I found online are showing a slightly different set of > parameters than what I am seeing in real life. For instance, there is no > "country standard" parameter on the SB. And when I make the recommended > changes to the parameters that do match up with the manuals, the value > ranges on the SB are much tighter so it does not let me enter negative > numbers as the manuals are wanting me to set for frequency shifting to work > well. I am not in the mood to torch the three Discover 7.4s attached to the > SI6048. > > Makes me think there is a firmware update but SMA's website returned > nothing. It is currently running BFR 2.72 and SRR 2.72. The SB is from 2009. > > Any thoughts on an old (but newer) firmware? Is it even possible to update > the firmware on this dinosaur? > > While I am at it, can any one explain the difference between "PvOnly" and > "Gen" for setting 231.05 ExtSrc on the SI6048? The manual is lacking > reassuring details. > > Thanks for entertaining my sadomasochism. > > Aloha, > Lou Russo > Spree Solar Systems LLC > C-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue May 27 20:35:54 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 27 May 2025 18:35:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SI6048 AC Coupled with an Old Sunny Boy 4000US In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Lou, It does sound like you may need a firmware update but it may have been pre configured for you long ago. When you interconnect with the Sunny Boy through the Webbox, if you are off-grid, the country code parameter may say something like Default and/or Cntry Set. Then, you would program this parameter to be Off-grid or Off-grid 60 (for 60 Hz grid). It should auto populate adjusted parameters. As far as the PV only vs Gen question. If you have a generator connected to the Sunny Island, you will want to use "Gen". PV only means that there is no grid or generator in the system, just a Sunnyboy downstream of the load terminals, typically back feeding the load center. Good luck, I have forgotten almost everything about the Sunny Island now! On Mon, May 26, 2025 at 10:33 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Aloha All, > > I am messing around with a system in our shop just 'cause I wanted to mess > around with AC coupled systems at my leisure. This setup is completely > off-grid. I have an autoformer between the SB and the SI. > > I am able to make changes to the parameters on the SB with an old Webbox > and a RS485 Piggyback card. > > The manuals I found online are showing a slightly different set of > parameters than what I am seeing in real life. For instance, there is no > "country standard" parameter on the SB. And when I make the recommended > changes to the parameters that do match up with the manuals, the value > ranges on the SB are much tighter so it does not let me enter negative > numbers as the manuals are wanting me to set for frequency shifting to work > well. I am not in the mood to torch the three Discover 7.4s attached to the > SI6048. > > Makes me think there is a firmware update but SMA's website returned > nothing. It is currently running BFR 2.72 and SRR 2.72. The SB is from 2009. > > Any thoughts on an old (but newer) firmware? Is it even possible to update > the firmware on this dinosaur? > > While I am at it, can any one explain the difference between "PvOnly" and > "Gen" for setting 231.05 ExtSrc on the SI6048? The manual is lacking > reassuring details. > > Thanks for entertaining my sadomasochism. > > Aloha, > Lou Russo > Spree Solar Systems LLC > C-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed May 28 15:32:13 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 28 May 2025 15:32:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark battery calibration Message-ID: Does anyone know whether you can calibrate the battery voltage on Sol-Ark inverters? I am on site with two 12k-p inverters. My meter agrees with one of them, and the other inverter (the master) is displaying 0.6v lower than both my meter and the other inverter. I have gone through two tech support people who are not being much help. There are lead acid batteries here. Thanks! -Dave [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu May 29 11:32:37 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 29 May 2025 15:32:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark battery calibration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Verify with a second or third meter. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark battery calibration Date: Wed, 28 May 2025 19:32:13 +0000 Size: 14408 URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu May 29 12:41:02 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 29 May 2025 12:41:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark battery calibration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dana, Having two inverters makes this a little easier in a sense. One inverter matches my meter. The other inverter is reading 0.6v lower than my meter. Sol-Ark suggested a factory reset, and a firmware update. After both of those, I am still seeing the same voltage difference. In case this means anything to anyone, the first inverter (master, reading a lower voltage) was installed in 2021. The second inverter was just installed recently. I also had to swap out the MCU board on that master inverter in order to get the firmware to match on both inverters. Cheers, Dave On Thu, May 29, 2025, 11:33 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Verify with a second or third meter. > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Dave Tedeyan > Bcc: > Date: Wed, 28 May 2025 19:32:13 +0000 > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark battery calibration > Does anyone know whether you can calibrate the battery voltage on Sol-Ark > inverters? I am on site with two 12k-p inverters. My meter agrees with one > of them, and the other inverter (the master) is displaying 0.6v lower than > both my meter and the other inverter. > > I have gone through two tech support people who are not being much help. > > There are lead acid batteries here. > > Thanks! > -Dave > > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu May 29 20:04:23 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 29 May 2025 18:04:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark battery calibration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu May 29 21:37:28 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 29 May 2025 21:37:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark battery calibration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, This is a sealed lead acid battery bank. So no smarts from the batteries here! Cheers, Dave On Thu, May 29, 2025, 8:04 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I guess that means the inverter isn’t getting its voltage reading from the > battery. > Assuming a it’s closed loop. > Jay > > On May 29, 2025, at 10:41 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Dana, > Having two inverters makes this a little easier in a sense. One inverter > matches my meter. The other inverter is reading 0.6v lower than my meter. > > Sol-Ark suggested a factory reset, and a firmware update. After both of > those, I am still seeing the same voltage difference. > > In case this means anything to anyone, the first inverter (master, reading > a lower voltage) was installed in 2021. The second inverter was just > installed recently. I also had to swap out the MCU board on that master > inverter in order to get the firmware to match on both inverters. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Thu, May 29, 2025, 11:33 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Verify with a second or third meter. >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> >> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >> >> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >> >> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >> >> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: Dave Tedeyan >> Bcc: >> Date: Wed, 28 May 2025 19:32:13 +0000 >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark battery calibration >> Does anyone know whether you can calibrate the battery voltage on Sol-Ark >> inverters? I am on site with two 12k-p inverters. My meter agrees with one >> of them, and the other inverter (the master) is displaying 0.6v lower than >> both my meter and the other inverter. >> >> I have gone through two tech support people who are not being much help. >> >> There are lead acid batteries here. >> >> Thanks! >> -Dave >> >> >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Thu May 29 22:31:39 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Thu, 29 May 2025 21:31:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark battery calibration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com Fri May 30 09:37:19 2025 From: Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com (Poole, Jharen) Date: Fri, 30 May 2025 13:37:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark battery calibration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Dave, Please continue working with Sol-Ark support on this issue. While inverter calibration is possible with some of our inverters, it requires prior approval from management. This step is only taken when we are absolutely certain the issue originates from the inverter itself, once this has been determined a support member who has been trained and has access to make these changes should be able to calibrate the inverter for you. Due to the potential risks involved and the confidential nature of the calibration process, we do not share these steps externally. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:39724b23-42e2-4a24-b173-2e150c1db9ac] ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2025 9:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Maverick Brown ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark battery calibration Caution: This email is from an external source. Dave I would say this: Few bible days ago, I worked in Semiconductor Manufacturing Equipment Service. We would send our Fluke DVMs, recorders and other measuring tools off to a lab to get calibrated so when we measured something, we knew what we were measuring. I’m not saying your DVM is out of calibration, it seems like the inverter’s DVM is the issue. Having said that, I assume that if an inverter is measuring something like volts or amps (usually via a shunt therefore Volts), it also needs to be calibrated. Now, the question is can a common person like you or me be allowed to edit those values on the Sol-Ark. Outback has their Vbat cal page for charge controllers and trim pots for the FNDC and Schneider has their XW Config Tool with calibration procedures. I think Sol-Ark will send a motherboard to install on the old Master??? I suggest keep calling them and reference your ticket # and see if you can get a resolution. I would also measure along the entire path of both inverter battery cables, especially at high load looking for any voltage drops along the way. You might find a loose bolt or wonky lug crimp. See if you can both sides of the inverter DC breaker. Good luck! Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On May 28, 2025, at 2:32 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote:  Does anyone know whether you can calibrate the battery voltage on Sol-Ark inverters? I am on site with two 12k-p inverters. My meter agrees with one of them, and the other inverter (the master) is displaying 0.6v lower than both my meter and the other inverter. I have gone through two tech support people who are not being much help. There are lead acid batteries here. Thanks! -Dave [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-n3sat0dv.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: Outlook-n3sat0dv.png URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat May 31 00:26:56 2025 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 30 May 2025 22:26:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any OpticsRE outage updates, and firmware archives erased from website? Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches - Thank you so much. Your help from my previous post here a couple months ago after the first unannounced OpticsRE outage solved the problem on my remote, off-grid client's system...new SD card (system events showing corrupted SD card), fresh firmware on it, Mate 3S firmware update, and connected within 5 minutes. Flawless for a couple months until the most recent OpticsRE failure. Some of you have spoken of at least some portion of your OpticsRE sites returning to service recently, with many just needing a manual reboot. Not working here, I'm onsite again, 5 hours drive one way, and thank Dog the client lets me stay here overnight. I've tried all the usual tricks today, fresh SD card, mint firmware for update, factory Mate3S reset, reboot the DSL service (no issues since the RESOL Vbus solar hot water data has been flawless on the same router). I was going to try a revert to previous firmware version, but all the archives have...disappeared. What disturbs me tonight is that on arrival here today I figured I'd just download the latest Mate3S firmware update from the Outback website and stick it on the fresh SD card, to be absolutely sure it was current and bugs fixed and......it appears all Mate3S firmware updates, AND the firmware archive past versions, have been removed from their website. All that shows on those pages is an invitation to join their mailing list. Can anyone else confirm that NO Mate3S firmware, new or old, is available from Outback anymore? I assume they just want it to die a silent death because they are in too far over their heads to make it work? My client is pissed off. I am pissed off. They don't answer their tech support phones or return calls. They don't reply to tech support emails. Is this a death spiral for Outback? Are the new young solar bros who bought the place in over their heads? Do they not care about tech support (EG4 tech support was arrogant and treated me like I didn't know shit, even though I've been installing and supporting off-grid systems before they were born)? EG4 had flippant tech support because most of their customers were DIY, You-Tube certified installers. Don't you dare apply that attitude to my NABCEP- and IREC-certified company, new Outback solarbros. We graybeards all know why the company got the name "Outback." On lighter note, anyone know how to just rewire all the Flexnet DC shunts and add more to to the FM80s, and what equipment to buy to have sort of reliable remote monitoring for an off-grid system? Can Victron do it? They have been very responsive to me for tech support but these would be complete rewires of all the shunts and adding new ones as the MX CCs don't have them individually. I apologize for the vitriol, but my very patient client is at the end of his rope, as are many other of my clients, and so am I. Recent comments from clients - "In over their heads." "Bit off more than they can chew." "You can see the water swirling down the toilet bowl." "A bunch of T-ball toddlers trying to play hardball." "Solar Bros who want to replace the old Lexus with a Buggati...but forgot it don't work on a dirt road." "Trying to haul 2 tons of bullshit in a Cybertruck." "So the purveyors of cheap Chinese solar crap now say Outback will be built in the USA? BS." And on and on. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat May 31 09:06:18 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 07:06:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any OpticsRE outage updates, and firmware archives erased from website? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Dan, Typically a reboot has been working to get Optics back up for most of my clients. What do you see on the port screen? Is the router assigning an IP address? Continually connecting? Regarding tech support with Outback, the most effective way to work with them now is the website tech support chat on their website (lower right corner). They can send you links to the firmware through that. I'm not sure why they don't have it easily accessible on the website anymore. It would be nice to know what the overall strategy is going to be with Outback. Victron's remote monitoring works really, really well. I have just added smarts to very old systems (such as Trace systems) by adding smart shunts, perhaps a charge controller, and handing over generator start duties to the Victron Cerbo (or Ekrano). This allows you to track battery voltage, SOC, remote generator start control, but put off getting a new inverter. In my opinion, Victron occupies the sweet spot of taking the best of the older inverters (surge), ability to work with lead acid (shunts) and integrating the good new stuff (closed loop comms with many different Lithium batteries) and probably has the best generator starting logic/options that I've seen. Their weakness is complexity of install and piecing together UL listing top to bottom. On Fri, May 30, 2025 at 10:28 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches - Thank you so much. Your help from my previous post > here a couple months ago after the first unannounced OpticsRE outage solved > the problem on my remote, off-grid client's system...new SD card (system > events showing corrupted SD card), fresh firmware on it, Mate 3S firmware > update, and connected within 5 minutes. Flawless for a couple months until > the most recent OpticsRE failure. > > Some of you have spoken of at least some portion of your OpticsRE sites > returning to service recently, with many just needing a manual reboot. Not > working here, I'm onsite again, 5 hours drive one way, and thank Dog the > client lets me stay here overnight. > > I've tried all the usual tricks today, fresh SD card, mint firmware for > update, factory Mate3S reset, reboot the DSL service (no issues since the > RESOL Vbus solar hot water data has been flawless on the same router). I > was going to try a revert to previous firmware version, but all the > archives have...disappeared. > > What disturbs me tonight is that on arrival here today I figured I'd just > download the latest Mate3S firmware update from the Outback website and > stick it on the fresh SD card, to be absolutely sure it was current and > bugs fixed and......it appears all Mate3S firmware updates, AND the > firmware archive past versions, have been removed from their website. All > that shows on those pages is an invitation to join their mailing list. > > Can anyone else confirm that NO Mate3S firmware, new or old, is available > from Outback anymore? I assume they just want it to die a silent death > because they are in too far over their heads to make it work? > > My client is pissed off. I am pissed off. They don't answer their tech > support phones or return calls. They don't reply to tech support emails. Is > this a death spiral for Outback? Are the new young solar bros who bought > the place in over their heads? Do they not care about tech support (EG4 > tech support was arrogant and treated me like I didn't know shit, even > though I've been installing and supporting off-grid systems before they > were born)? EG4 had flippant tech support because most of their customers > were DIY, You-Tube certified installers. > > Don't you dare apply that attitude to my NABCEP- and IREC-certified > company, new Outback solarbros. We graybeards all know why the company got > the name "Outback." > > On lighter note, anyone know how to just rewire all the Flexnet DC shunts > and add more to to the FM80s, and what equipment to buy to have sort of > reliable remote monitoring for an off-grid system? Can Victron do it? They > have been very responsive to me for tech support but these would be > complete rewires of all the shunts and adding new ones as the MX CCs don't > have them individually. > > I apologize for the vitriol, but my very patient client is at the end of > his rope, as are many other of my clients, and so am I. > Recent comments from clients - "In over their heads." "Bit off more than > they can chew." "You can see the water swirling down the toilet bowl." "A > bunch of T-ball toddlers trying to play hardball." "Solar Bros who want to > replace the old Lexus with a Buggati...but forgot it don't work on a dirt > road." "Trying to haul 2 tons of bullshit in a Cybertruck." "So the > purveyors of cheap Chinese solar crap now say Outback will be built in the > USA? BS." And on and on. > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat May 31 09:30:33 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 07:30:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any OpticsRE outage updates, and firmware archives erased from website? Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat May 31 09:37:31 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 13:37:31 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Arrogant solar Bros & streamlining In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 37+ years in the field wrenching & the young techs have nooo idea as to what we have dealt with over time. Perpetual change. I second your comments on the arrogance of a few of the tech support "Bros" who were not even conceived since many of us have been in the field wrenching longer than they have been alive. & yes there are new control/communication schemes that I am still ignorant to & I admit & have to make a real effort with, I do try, as I do not use or install the same thing day after day & can spout it off the appropriate protocol[s] in my sleep. We wrenches deal with a variety to products from a variety of companies with a variety of communication requirements not just one. This, in the evolving world of solar is critical for the solar field to m earn reliability & respectability, Bros. It is like the cell phone industry finally adopting the "C" cable, finally! One charger & one cable. Jeez, how long did that take? How about some streamlining of topologies manufacturers? Rant off _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Dan Fink via RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any OpticsRE outage updates, and firmware archives erased from website? Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 04:26:56 +0000 Size: 23677 URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat May 31 09:45:08 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 09:45:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Context XW+ Random Factory Defaults Message-ID: I have a new service client with dual XW+. When I first went out a couple of weeks ago, the LFP batteries had completely shut down due to low battery voltage. I had to jump start them with a Chargeverter. I discovered that the inverter low battery cutoff was 44 volts, which is lower than the battery BMS cut out. I also found the AGS set to manual off, and I believe the voltage triggers were defaults, but I am not certain. There is an AGS, SCP, two MPPT 60 150, one MPPT 100 600, and an Insight Home on the Xanbus Network. The owner cannot figure out how to access the Insight Cloud, and I could not access the device on the local network with the default password. Therefore, I am working with the SCP only for settings. I adjusted the settings on the inverters and AGS and checked all other settings. We tested the generator functionality. Everything seemed great. Fast forward to this week, and the system had a complete shutdown. I went out to the remote location today and found the inverters in standby. I tried to enable them, and received an F66 error. I dug in and found that they both had the same modbus address 00 and they were both set to split phase master. Everything else appeared to be factory defaults. Low battery cut out was sent to 44 volts again. The AGS had disappeared from the network on the SCP. The batteries were at 100% because the charge controllers were charging the batteries with solar for the last couple of days with no load present. After power cycling the inverters, the AGS reappeared on the SCP. The settings in the AGS were exactly as I had left them last time. It appears that the inverters went back to factory defaults, but everything else seemed okay. The only relevant thing in the fault logs was a low battery condition F48 fault that occurred six days ago. Then, 18 hours later, multiple F66 errors (5 or 6) occured over a 2-hour span. It appears this is when the inverters reverted to factory defaults. I don't work on a lot of Schneider inverters, so I am looking for any insights, no pun intended, that you may have about this behavior. I changed the names of the inverters from the factory default in the SCP. If the settings do revert to factory defaults again, I'm hoping this will be an indication if the names also revert. One more piece of information. I seriously doubt that the occupants of the property messed with anything in the SCP. However, I strongly believe that they were flipping breakers, particularly on the solar charge controllers. It's possible that turning off a controller messed up the Xanbus, but I don't see what that would have to do with settings getting changed. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat May 31 10:04:24 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 08:04:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Context XW+ Random Factory Defaults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4C0EDA-A143-4788-99D6-8AC325E9C57C@gmail.com> Have you been able to get in touch with Schneider tech support? > On May 31, 2025, at 7:45 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I have a new service client with dual XW+. When I first went out a couple of weeks ago, the LFP batteries had completely shut down due to low battery voltage. I had to jump start them with a Chargeverter. I discovered that the inverter low battery cutoff was 44 volts, which is lower than the battery BMS cut out. I also found the AGS set to manual off, and I believe the voltage triggers were defaults, but I am not certain. > > There is an AGS, SCP, two MPPT 60 150, one MPPT 100 600, and an Insight Home on the Xanbus Network. The owner cannot figure out how to access the Insight Cloud, and I could not access the device on the local network with the default password. Therefore, I am working with the SCP only for settings. > > I adjusted the settings on the inverters and AGS and checked all other settings. We tested the generator functionality. Everything seemed great. > > Fast forward to this week, and the system had a complete shutdown. I went out to the remote location today and found the inverters in standby. I tried to enable them, and received an F66 error. I dug in and found that they both had the same modbus address 00 and they were both set to split phase master. Everything else appeared to be factory defaults. Low battery cut out was sent to 44 volts again. The AGS had disappeared from the network on the SCP. The batteries were at 100% because the charge controllers were charging the batteries with solar for the last couple of days with no load present. After power cycling the inverters, the AGS reappeared on the SCP. The settings in the AGS were exactly as I had left them last time. > > It appears that the inverters went back to factory defaults, but everything else seemed okay. > > The only relevant thing in the fault logs was a low battery condition F48 fault that occurred six days ago. Then, 18 hours later, multiple F66 errors (5 or 6) occured over a 2-hour span. It appears this is when the inverters reverted to factory defaults. > > I don't work on a lot of Schneider inverters, so I am looking for any insights, no pun intended, that you may have about this behavior. > > I changed the names of the inverters from the factory default in the SCP. If the settings do revert to factory defaults again, I'm hoping this will be an indication if the names also revert. > > One more piece of information. I seriously doubt that the occupants of the property messed with anything in the SCP. However, I strongly believe that they were flipping breakers, particularly on the solar charge controllers. It's possible that turning off a controller messed up the Xanbus, but I don't see what that would have to do with settings getting changed. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat May 31 10:16:30 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 10:16:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Context XW+ Random Factory Defaults In-Reply-To: <4F4C0EDA-A143-4788-99D6-8AC325E9C57C@gmail.com> References: <4F4C0EDA-A143-4788-99D6-8AC325E9C57C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Are they open on Saturdays? It doesn't really matter anyway because I went out to the remote island on an emergency basis this morning, and we have a big storm rolling in, so we had to hightail it out of there. I wouldn't have had time to call. I definitely intend to get in touch with them for any advice they might have. I was hoping to get some clues from anyone with similar experiences. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, May 31, 2025, 10:04 AM Jay wrote: > Have you been able to get in touch with Schneider tech support? > > > > On May 31, 2025, at 7:45 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I have a new service client with dual XW+. When I first went out a couple > of weeks ago, the LFP batteries had completely shut down due to low battery > voltage. I had to jump start them with a Chargeverter. I discovered that > the inverter low battery cutoff was 44 volts, which is lower than the > battery BMS cut out. I also found the AGS set to manual off, and I believe > the voltage triggers were defaults, but I am not certain. > > There is an AGS, SCP, two MPPT 60 150, one MPPT 100 600, and an Insight > Home on the Xanbus Network. The owner cannot figure out how to access the > Insight Cloud, and I could not access the device on the local network with > the default password. Therefore, I am working with the SCP only for > settings. > > I adjusted the settings on the inverters and AGS and checked all other > settings. We tested the generator functionality. Everything seemed great. > > Fast forward to this week, and the system had a complete shutdown. I went > out to the remote location today and found the inverters in standby. I > tried to enable them, and received an F66 error. I dug in and found that > they both had the same modbus address 00 and they were both set to split > phase master. Everything else appeared to be factory defaults. Low battery > cut out was sent to 44 volts again. The AGS had disappeared from the > network on the SCP. The batteries were at 100% because the charge > controllers were charging the batteries with solar for the last couple of > days with no load present. After power cycling the inverters, the AGS > reappeared on the SCP. The settings in the AGS were exactly as I had left > them last time. > > It appears that the inverters went back to factory defaults, but > everything else seemed okay. > > The only relevant thing in the fault logs was a low battery condition F48 > fault that occurred six days ago. Then, 18 hours later, multiple F66 errors > (5 or 6) occured over a 2-hour span. It appears this is when the inverters > reverted to factory defaults. > > I don't work on a lot of Schneider inverters, so I am looking for any > insights, no pun intended, that you may have about this behavior. > > I changed the names of the inverters from the factory default in the SCP. > If the settings do revert to factory defaults again, I'm hoping this will > be an indication if the names also revert. > > One more piece of information. I seriously doubt that the occupants of the > property messed with anything in the SCP. However, I strongly believe that > they were flipping breakers, particularly on the solar charge controllers. > It's possible that turning off a controller messed up the Xanbus, but I > don't see what that would have to do with settings getting changed. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Sat May 31 10:25:54 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 04:25:54 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Context XW+ Random Factory Defaults In-Reply-To: References: <4F4C0EDA-A143-4788-99D6-8AC325E9C57C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Have you tried to factory reset the InsightHome in an effort to login locally with the default password and then update the firmware on all the devices? Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 On Sat, May 31, 2025 at 4:17 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Are they open on Saturdays? It doesn't really matter anyway because I went > out to the remote island on an emergency basis this morning, and we have a > big storm rolling in, so we had to hightail it out of there. I wouldn't > have had time to call. > > I definitely intend to get in touch with them for any advice they might > have. I was hoping to get some clues from anyone with similar experiences. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Sat, May 31, 2025, 10:04 AM Jay wrote: > >> Have you been able to get in touch with Schneider tech support? >> >> >> >> On May 31, 2025, at 7:45 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> I have a new service client with dual XW+. When I first went out a couple >> of weeks ago, the LFP batteries had completely shut down due to low battery >> voltage. I had to jump start them with a Chargeverter. I discovered that >> the inverter low battery cutoff was 44 volts, which is lower than the >> battery BMS cut out. I also found the AGS set to manual off, and I believe >> the voltage triggers were defaults, but I am not certain. >> >> There is an AGS, SCP, two MPPT 60 150, one MPPT 100 600, and an Insight >> Home on the Xanbus Network. The owner cannot figure out how to access the >> Insight Cloud, and I could not access the device on the local network with >> the default password. Therefore, I am working with the SCP only for >> settings. >> >> I adjusted the settings on the inverters and AGS and checked all other >> settings. We tested the generator functionality. Everything seemed great. >> >> Fast forward to this week, and the system had a complete shutdown. I went >> out to the remote location today and found the inverters in standby. I >> tried to enable them, and received an F66 error. I dug in and found that >> they both had the same modbus address 00 and they were both set to split >> phase master. Everything else appeared to be factory defaults. Low battery >> cut out was sent to 44 volts again. The AGS had disappeared from the >> network on the SCP. The batteries were at 100% because the charge >> controllers were charging the batteries with solar for the last couple of >> days with no load present. After power cycling the inverters, the AGS >> reappeared on the SCP. The settings in the AGS were exactly as I had left >> them last time. >> >> It appears that the inverters went back to factory defaults, but >> everything else seemed okay. >> >> The only relevant thing in the fault logs was a low battery condition F48 >> fault that occurred six days ago. Then, 18 hours later, multiple F66 errors >> (5 or 6) occured over a 2-hour span. It appears this is when the inverters >> reverted to factory defaults. >> >> I don't work on a lot of Schneider inverters, so I am looking for any >> insights, no pun intended, that you may have about this behavior. >> >> I changed the names of the inverters from the factory default in the SCP. >> If the settings do revert to factory defaults again, I'm hoping this will >> be an indication if the names also revert. >> >> One more piece of information. I seriously doubt that the occupants of >> the property messed with anything in the SCP. However, I strongly believe >> that they were flipping breakers, particularly on the solar charge >> controllers. It's possible that turning off a controller messed up the >> Xanbus, but I don't see what that would have to do with settings getting >> changed. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat May 31 12:56:20 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 09:56:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Context XW+ Random Factory Defaults In-Reply-To: References: <4F4C0EDA-A143-4788-99D6-8AC325E9C57C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9adda057c39c4fe2efddba1084ff7f55@sti.net> Monday thru Friday. They may tell you that XW+ is not a good match with LFP unless the user knows what they are doing. XW pro was made to close loop and communicate with the bms. Since there were no faults logged it sounds like the battery cut out before the XW LBCO, which is wrong as you know and this was fixed on XWpro. XW's should not change their master slave set-up unless they were really glitched or one has damaged memory. They should repower as they were set-up. Below is how it should look in set-up. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-05-31 7:16 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Are they open on Saturdays? It doesn't really matter anyway because I > went out to the remote island on an emergency basis this morning, and > we have a big storm rolling in, so we had to hightail it out of there. > I wouldn't have had time to call. > > I definitely intend to get in touch with them for any advice they might > have. I was hoping to get some clues from anyone with similar > experiences. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Sat, May 31, 2025, 10:04 AM Jay wrote: > > Have you been able to get in touch with Schneider tech support? > > On May 31, 2025, at 7:45 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I have a new service client with dual XW+. When I first went out a > couple of weeks ago, the LFP batteries had completely shut down due to > low battery voltage. I had to jump start them with a Chargeverter. I > discovered that the inverter low battery cutoff was 44 volts, which is > lower than the battery BMS cut out. I also found the AGS set to manual > off, and I believe the voltage triggers were defaults, but I am not > certain. > > There is an AGS, SCP, two MPPT 60 150, one MPPT 100 600, and an Insight > Home on the Xanbus Network. The owner cannot figure out how to access > the Insight Cloud, and I could not access the device on the local > network with the default password. Therefore, I am working with the SCP > only for settings. > > I adjusted the settings on the inverters and AGS and checked all other > settings. We tested the generator functionality. Everything seemed > great. > > Fast forward to this week, and the system had a complete shutdown. I > went out to the remote location today and found the inverters in > standby. I tried to enable them, and received an F66 error. I dug in > and found that they both had the same modbus address 00 and they were > both set to split phase master. Everything else appeared to be factory > defaults. Low battery cut out was sent to 44 volts again. The AGS had > disappeared from the network on the SCP. The batteries were at 100% > because the charge controllers were charging the batteries with solar > for the last couple of days with no load present. After power cycling > the inverters, the AGS reappeared on the SCP. The settings in the AGS > were exactly as I had left them last time. > > It appears that the inverters went back to factory defaults, but > everything else seemed okay. > > The only relevant thing in the fault logs was a low battery condition > F48 fault that occurred six days ago. Then, 18 hours later, multiple > F66 errors (5 or 6) occured over a 2-hour span. It appears this is when > the inverters reverted to factory defaults. > > I don't work on a lot of Schneider inverters, so I am looking for any > insights, no pun intended, that you may have about this behavior. > > I changed the names of the inverters from the factory default in the > SCP. If the settings do revert to factory defaults again, I'm hoping > this will be an indication if the names also revert. > > One more piece of information. I seriously doubt that the occupants of > the property messed with anything in the SCP. However, I strongly > believe that they were flipping breakers, particularly on the solar > charge controllers. It's possible that turning off a controller messed > up the Xanbus, but I don't see what that would have to do with settings > getting changed. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: b3342044.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10376 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dde7b80a.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11613 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat May 31 13:03:22 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 13:03:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TC-ER Cable for PV Source Curcuit Message-ID: Subtitle: can you please burn my house down? I ran across a home with a complete mess of TC-ER Cable used for DC circuits operating at ~450V. I know you can't run TC-ER in conduit unless it has an EGC in the cable jacket, and you certainly can't suspend it from the ceiling like in the attached pictures, but it got me thinking... Would it be acceptable to use TC-ER between array sections where not subject to physical damage and where properly secured, supported, and terminated? I know the answers are going to come back as why not just use Type PV, or THWN in conduit, and do it "right," but I'm still curious. I have a feeling I'm going to find a whole lot more TC-ER on this island where a guy had free reign with no AHJ inspections. I found a neighbor with TC-ER running unprotected and improperly supported through an attic with a green THWN EGC following alongside. The TC-ER just pokes through the roof with some goop around it. I really don't want to touch these systems without correcting egregious fire safety issues. It's tough making that argument to people when their house hasn't burned down for the last X years since it was installed. P.S. Yes, in the lower right of one of these images, those are the battery cables running outdoors, completely unprotected from physical damage. Total hack job. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1000063530.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 154916 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1000063529.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 156228 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat May 31 13:15:19 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 10:15:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Context XW+ Random Factory Defaults In-Reply-To: <9adda057c39c4fe2efddba1084ff7f55@sti.net> References: <4F4C0EDA-A143-4788-99D6-8AC325E9C57C@gmail.com> <9adda057c39c4fe2efddba1084ff7f55@sti.net> Message-ID: <1475adb0bfbde039d2fcb2f15ea8340a@sti.net> Screens were from cloud but should be similar on SCP. Device numbers must be different! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-05-31 9:56 am, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > Monday thru Friday. They may tell you that XW+ is not a good match with > LFP unless the user knows what they are doing. XW pro was made to close > loop and communicate with the bms. Since there were no faults logged it > sounds like the battery cut out before the XW LBCO, which is wrong as > you know and this was fixed on XWpro. XW's should not change their > master slave set-up unless they were really glitched or one has damaged > memory. They should repower as they were set-up. Below is how it should > look in set-up. > > Good Luck! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2025-05-31 7:16 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Are they open on Saturdays? It doesn't really matter anyway because I > went out to the remote island on an emergency basis this morning, and > we have a big storm rolling in, so we had to hightail it out of there. > I wouldn't have had time to call. > > I definitely intend to get in touch with them for any advice they might > have. I was hoping to get some clues from anyone with similar > experiences. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Sat, May 31, 2025, 10:04 AM Jay wrote: > > Have you been able to get in touch with Schneider tech support? > > On May 31, 2025, at 7:45 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I have a new service client with dual XW+. When I first went out a > couple of weeks ago, the LFP batteries had completely shut down due to > low battery voltage. I had to jump start them with a Chargeverter. I > discovered that the inverter low battery cutoff was 44 volts, which is > lower than the battery BMS cut out. I also found the AGS set to manual > off, and I believe the voltage triggers were defaults, but I am not > certain. > > There is an AGS, SCP, two MPPT 60 150, one MPPT 100 600, and an Insight > Home on the Xanbus Network. The owner cannot figure out how to access > the Insight Cloud, and I could not access the device on the local > network with the default password. Therefore, I am working with the SCP > only for settings. > > I adjusted the settings on the inverters and AGS and checked all other > settings. We tested the generator functionality. Everything seemed > great. > > Fast forward to this week, and the system had a complete shutdown. I > went out to the remote location today and found the inverters in > standby. I tried to enable them, and received an F66 error. I dug in > and found that they both had the same modbus address 00 and they were > both set to split phase master. Everything else appeared to be factory > defaults. Low battery cut out was sent to 44 volts again. The AGS had > disappeared from the network on the SCP. The batteries were at 100% > because the charge controllers were charging the batteries with solar > for the last couple of days with no load present. After power cycling > the inverters, the AGS reappeared on the SCP. The settings in the AGS > were exactly as I had left them last time. > > It appears that the inverters went back to factory defaults, but > everything else seemed okay. > > The only relevant thing in the fault logs was a low battery condition > F48 fault that occurred six days ago. Then, 18 hours later, multiple > F66 errors (5 or 6) occured over a 2-hour span. It appears this is when > the inverters reverted to factory defaults. > > I don't work on a lot of Schneider inverters, so I am looking for any > insights, no pun intended, that you may have about this behavior. > > I changed the names of the inverters from the factory default in the > SCP. If the settings do revert to factory defaults again, I'm hoping > this will be an indication if the names also revert. > > One more piece of information. I seriously doubt that the occupants of > the property messed with anything in the SCP. However, I strongly > believe that they were flipping breakers, particularly on the solar > charge controllers. It's possible that turning off a controller messed > up the Xanbus, but I don't see what that would have to do with settings > getting changed. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 0f1ba397.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38011 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: b3342044.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10376 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dde7b80a.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11613 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat May 31 16:04:42 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 16:04:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Context XW+ Random Factory Defaults In-Reply-To: <9adda057c39c4fe2efddba1084ff7f55@sti.net> References: <4F4C0EDA-A143-4788-99D6-8AC325E9C57C@gmail.com> <9adda057c39c4fe2efddba1084ff7f55@sti.net> Message-ID: Yeah, someone sold a bunch of Conext XW+ owners a bunch of Pytes batteries to replace lead acids. I have been dealing with a variety of issues. This particular system has 100kWh of battery capacity with a 10kW PV system that is heavily shaded and poorly oriented. It's never going to charge the battery to 100% without significant generator run time given the base load of the property. In this case the batteries could not have cut out before the XW reached LBCO. That would have required a manual battery reset or black start. And because it is open loop, it could not have been a communication glitch. On the SCP, I found them both with device address zero and both set to Master. It really looked like they were both in a factory default state. I don't understand how that happens simultaneously. I'm really curious to see if it happens again and to see if the device names change back to the default, which would clearly indicate they are being reset to factory defaults. I can't imagine anything else on the Xanbus would be writing device names to the inverters. The only other thing I can think of would be something coming from the cloud. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, May 31, 2025, 12:57 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Monday thru Friday. They may tell you that XW+ is not a good match with > LFP unless the user knows what they are doing. XW pro was made to close > loop and communicate with the bms. Since there were no faults logged it > sounds like the battery cut out before the XW LBCO, which is wrong as you > know and this was fixed on XWpro. XW's should not change their master > slave set-up unless they were really glitched or one has damaged memory. > They should repower as they were set-up. Below is how it should look in > set-up. > > Good Luck! > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-05-31 7:16 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Are they open on Saturdays? It doesn't really matter anyway because I went > out to the remote island on an emergency basis this morning, and we have a > big storm rolling in, so we had to hightail it out of there. I wouldn't > have had time to call. > > I definitely intend to get in touch with them for any advice they might > have. I was hoping to get some clues from anyone with similar experiences. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Sat, May 31, 2025, 10:04 AM Jay wrote: > > > Have you been able to get in touch with Schneider tech support? > > > > On May 31, 2025, at 7:45 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I have a new service client with dual XW+. When I first went out a couple > of weeks ago, the LFP batteries had completely shut down due to low battery > voltage. I had to jump start them with a Chargeverter. I discovered that > the inverter low battery cutoff was 44 volts, which is lower than the > battery BMS cut out. I also found the AGS set to manual off, and I believe > the voltage triggers were defaults, but I am not certain. > > There is an AGS, SCP, two MPPT 60 150, one MPPT 100 600, and an Insight > Home on the Xanbus Network. The owner cannot figure out how to access the > Insight Cloud, and I could not access the device on the local network with > the default password. Therefore, I am working with the SCP only for > settings. > > I adjusted the settings on the inverters and AGS and checked all other > settings. We tested the generator functionality. Everything seemed great. > > Fast forward to this week, and the system had a complete shutdown. I went > out to the remote location today and found the inverters in standby. I > tried to enable them, and received an F66 error. I dug in and found that > they both had the same modbus address 00 and they were both set to split > phase master. Everything else appeared to be factory defaults. Low battery > cut out was sent to 44 volts again. The AGS had disappeared from the > network on the SCP. The batteries were at 100% because the charge > controllers were charging the batteries with solar for the last couple of > days with no load present. After power cycling the inverters, the AGS > reappeared on the SCP. The settings in the AGS were exactly as I had left > them last time. > > It appears that the inverters went back to factory defaults, but > everything else seemed okay. > > The only relevant thing in the fault logs was a low battery condition F48 > fault that occurred six days ago. Then, 18 hours later, multiple F66 errors > (5 or 6) occured over a 2-hour span. It appears this is when the inverters > reverted to factory defaults. > > I don't work on a lot of Schneider inverters, so I am looking for any > insights, no pun intended, that you may have about this behavior. > > I changed the names of the inverters from the factory default in the SCP. > If the settings do revert to factory defaults again, I'm hoping this will > be an indication if the names also revert. > > One more piece of information. I seriously doubt that the occupants of the > property messed with anything in the SCP. However, I strongly believe that > they were flipping breakers, particularly on the solar charge controllers. > It's possible that turning off a controller messed up the Xanbus, but I > don't see what that would have to do with settings getting changed. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: b3342044.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10376 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dde7b80a.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11613 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat May 31 16:17:38 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 14:17:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TC-ER Cable for PV Source Curcuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I once worked with someone when they were brought in to fix an orphaned system would do a survey of the system. List every issue and what it would take to fix. Some were non negotiable, had to fix like the electrical issue you show. Others might be something that he’d be ok with the owner signing off that it could be an issue say with racking or suspect panels or unknown condition of the batteries, the inverters or maybe messy wiring but not unsafe etc. If they said no, he walked because he didn’t want to be held accountable as he would have been the last to touch it and any issues would be his after that. Good luck. > On May 31, 2025, at 11:03 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Subtitle: can you please burn my house down? > > I ran across a home with a complete mess of TC-ER Cable used for DC circuits operating at ~450V. I know you can't run TC-ER in conduit unless it has an EGC in the cable jacket, and you certainly can't suspend it from the ceiling like in the attached pictures, but it got me thinking... > > Would it be acceptable to use TC-ER between array sections where not subject to physical damage and where properly secured, supported, and terminated? I know the answers are going to come back as why not just use Type PV, or THWN in conduit, and do it "right," but I'm still curious. I have a feeling I'm going to find a whole lot more TC-ER on this island where a guy had free reign with no AHJ inspections. I found a neighbor with TC-ER running unprotected and improperly supported through an attic with a green THWN EGC following alongside. The TC-ER just pokes through the roof with some goop around it. I really don't want to touch these systems without correcting egregious fire safety issues. It's tough making that argument to people when their house hasn't burned down for the last X years since it was installed. > > P.S. Yes, in the lower right of one of these images, those are the battery cables running outdoors, completely unprotected from physical damage. Total hack job. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > <1000063530.jpg><1000063529.jpg>_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Sun Jun 1 12:39:57 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2025 16:39:57 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Context XW+ Random Factory Defaults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We had this exact same scenario once. We reprogrammed the XW gear properly and system was fine. It turned out it was a malicious party known to the client who had gained access to Insight, changed passwords, and it’s real easy to change a few settings or factory reset remotely to mess with the XW system & cost the client money. So – regain access to Insight or remove it. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2025 6:45 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [RE-wrenches] Context XW+ Random Factory Defaults I have a new service client with dual XW+. When I first went out a couple of weeks ago, the LFP batteries had completely shut down due to low battery voltage. I had to jump start them with a Chargeverter. I discovered that the inverter low battery cutoff was 44 volts, which is lower than the battery BMS cut out. I also found the AGS set to manual off, and I believe the voltage triggers were defaults, but I am not certain. There is an AGS, SCP, two MPPT 60 150, one MPPT 100 600, and an Insight Home on the Xanbus Network. The owner cannot figure out how to access the Insight Cloud, and I could not access the device on the local network with the default password. Therefore, I am working with the SCP only for settings. I adjusted the settings on the inverters and AGS and checked all other settings. We tested the generator functionality. Everything seemed great. Fast forward to this week, and the system had a complete shutdown. I went out to the remote location today and found the inverters in standby. I tried to enable them, and received an F66 error. I dug in and found that they both had the same modbus address 00 and they were both set to split phase master. Everything else appeared to be factory defaults. Low battery cut out was sent to 44 volts again. The AGS had disappeared from the network on the SCP. The batteries were at 100% because the charge controllers were charging the batteries with solar for the last couple of days with no load present. After power cycling the inverters, the AGS reappeared on the SCP. The settings in the AGS were exactly as I had left them last time. It appears that the inverters went back to factory defaults, but everything else seemed okay. The only relevant thing in the fault logs was a low battery condition F48 fault that occurred six days ago. Then, 18 hours later, multiple F66 errors (5 or 6) occured over a 2-hour span. It appears this is when the inverters reverted to factory defaults. I don't work on a lot of Schneider inverters, so I am looking for any insights, no pun intended, that you may have about this behavior. I changed the names of the inverters from the factory default in the SCP. If the settings do revert to factory defaults again, I'm hoping this will be an indication if the names also revert. One more piece of information. I seriously doubt that the occupants of the property messed with anything in the SCP. However, I strongly believe that they were flipping breakers, particularly on the solar charge controllers. It's possible that turning off a controller messed up the Xanbus, but I don't see what that would have to do with settings getting changed. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Jun 1 12:48:23 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2025 12:48:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Context XW+ Random Factory Defaults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Kevin. Since the Insight box has an integrated Xanbus terminator, I will need to get a terminator plug to remove it. Can I use any old Can Bus Terminator, or does Xanbus use a special one? Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sun, Jun 1, 2025 at 12:41 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We had this exact same scenario once. We reprogrammed the XW gear properly > and system was fine. It turned out it was a malicious party known to the > client who had gained access to Insight, changed passwords, and it’s real > easy to change a few settings or factory reset remotely to mess with the XW > system & cost the client money. > > > > So – regain access to Insight or remove it. > > > > Kevin > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, May 31, 2025 6:45 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Context XW+ Random Factory Defaults > > > > I have a new service client with dual XW+. When I first went out a couple > of weeks ago, the LFP batteries had completely shut down due to low battery > voltage. I had to jump start them with a Chargeverter. I discovered that > the inverter low battery cutoff was 44 volts, which is lower than the > battery BMS cut out. I also found the AGS set to manual off, and I believe > the voltage triggers were defaults, but I am not certain. > > > > There is an AGS, SCP, two MPPT 60 150, one MPPT 100 600, and an Insight > Home on the Xanbus Network. The owner cannot figure out how to access the > Insight Cloud, and I could not access the device on the local network with > the default password. Therefore, I am working with the SCP only for > settings. > > > > I adjusted the settings on the inverters and AGS and checked all other > settings. We tested the generator functionality. Everything seemed great. > > > > Fast forward to this week, and the system had a complete shutdown. I went > out to the remote location today and found the inverters in standby. I > tried to enable them, and received an F66 error. I dug in and found that > they both had the same modbus address 00 and they were both set to split > phase master. Everything else appeared to be factory defaults. Low battery > cut out was sent to 44 volts again. The AGS had disappeared from the > network on the SCP. The batteries were at 100% because the charge > controllers were charging the batteries with solar for the last couple of > days with no load present. After power cycling the inverters, the AGS > reappeared on the SCP. The settings in the AGS were exactly as I had left > them last time. > > > > It appears that the inverters went back to factory defaults, but > everything else seemed okay. > > > > The only relevant thing in the fault logs was a low battery condition F48 > fault that occurred six days ago. Then, 18 hours later, multiple F66 errors > (5 or 6) occured over a 2-hour span. It appears this is when the inverters > reverted to factory defaults. > > > > I don't work on a lot of Schneider inverters, so I am looking for any > insights, no pun intended, that you may have about this behavior. > > > > I changed the names of the inverters from the factory default in the SCP. > If the settings do revert to factory defaults again, I'm hoping this will > be an indication if the names also revert. > > > > One more piece of information. I seriously doubt that the occupants of the > property messed with anything in the SCP. However, I strongly believe that > they were flipping breakers, particularly on the solar charge controllers. > It's possible that turning off a controller messed up the Xanbus, but I > don't see what that would have to do with settings getting changed. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 1 15:09:42 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2025 12:09:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Context XW+ Random Factory Defaults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4f4e30921326c1c343c177dd8618a44e@sti.net> Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 4cc16a4b.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 61325 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: d370ccce.png Type: image/png Size: 1329515 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon Jun 2 16:16:10 2025 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2025 20:16:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS issue Message-ID: Wrenches I’ve got an original MATE ( tan oval ) , dual VFX set up that will not start before the inverter reaches LBCO, I believe. I need to confirm the actual inverter error. I tested the AGS function and it did start with the 2 min trigger VDC, and stop after the set Absorb time was reached. The customer reported that two days later, they lost power and the generator had failed to start. I am thinking now to try a new MATE3SL Is this the best next step to try and get this problem solved ? Any other testing suggestions? New Generac Ecogen Regards, Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From william at millersolar.com Mon Jun 2 17:10:19 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2025 14:10:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy: I would absolutely get a Mate 3S and connect it to the internet. I would absolutely pray that Optics remains on line. With a 3S and Optics you can trouble shoot this problem from your bed. To be safe, make sure the outboard relay is in good condition. Without internet, any flavor of Mate3 will provide event logs so when you show up you have a hint at what happened in your absence. Good luck. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Mon, Jun 2, 2025 at 1:18 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches > I’ve got an original MATE ( tan oval ) > , dual VFX set up that will not start before the inverter reaches LBCO, I > believe. I need to confirm the actual inverter error. > I tested the AGS function and it did start with the 2 min trigger VDC, and > stop after the set Absorb time was reached. > The customer reported that two days later, they lost power and the > generator had failed to start. > I am thinking now to try a new MATE3SL > Is this the best next step to try and get this problem solved ? Any other > testing suggestions? > New Generac Ecogen > > Regards, > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jun 2 18:41:34 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2025 16:41:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have seen this issue many times. You can try to do firmware update. Sometimes it works sometimes not. The mate3s is more stable for ags. Jay > On Jun 2, 2025, at 2:18 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches > I’ve got an original MATE ( tan oval ) > , dual VFX set up that will not start before the inverter reaches LBCO, I believe. I need to confirm the actual inverter error. > I tested the AGS function and it did start with the 2 min trigger VDC, and stop after the set Absorb time was reached. > The customer reported that two days later, they lost power and the generator had failed to start. > I am thinking now to try a new MATE3SL > Is this the best next step to try and get this problem solved ? Any other testing suggestions? > New Generac Ecogen > > Regards, > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From andrew at greenwired.com Mon Jun 2 19:22:49 2025 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2025 16:22:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SI Temp sensor + password Message-ID: <19732f46f46.12bccf2b24792884.8394571275297391252@greenwired.com> Anyone know where I can find a new temp sensor for an SMA Sunny Island? None of my vendors seem to have one. Also does anyone recall the default password? I want to say it was 1111 or 0000.. yay solar trailers.  Andrew Perkins Greenwired Purchasing Manger | Technical sales P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 M: 707-932-5595 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd P.O. Box 1686 Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: GreenWired_-_Badge_Logo_-_Color_1.png Type: image/png Size: 111621 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Mon Jun 2 19:41:05 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2025 16:41:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another simple variable to rule out is external factors outside of the Outback equipment. You already tested it out yourself so obviously the generator battery is good but another issue that comes up from time to time on my systems is the homeowner performing a manual run and then forgetting to reinstate the AUTO mode when they're finished running it manually. Seems to infrequently come up both on the Mate and genset itself. Some clients don't always own up to it either. AGS run failure event on Opticsre is very useful in these scenarios. Nick On Mon, Jun 2, 2025 at 1:18 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches > I’ve got an original MATE ( tan oval ) > , dual VFX set up that will not start before the inverter reaches LBCO, I > believe. I need to confirm the actual inverter error. > I tested the AGS function and it did start with the 2 min trigger VDC, and > stop after the set Absorb time was reached. > The customer reported that two days later, they lost power and the > generator had failed to start. > I am thinking now to try a new MATE3SL > Is this the best next step to try and get this problem solved ? Any other > testing suggestions? > New Generac Ecogen > > Regards, > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Jun 2 19:42:09 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2025 19:42:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SI Temp sensor + password In-Reply-To: <19732f46f46.12bccf2b24792884.8394571275297391252@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <5dc5281f-8f74-4da1-b35f-2193c7b0a723@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jun 2 19:58:32 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2025 17:58:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AGS issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54CECC54-0E20-4A69-828B-A07C017BDC79@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jun 2 20:25:14 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2025 17:25:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SI Temp sensor + password In-Reply-To: <19732f46f46.12bccf2b24792884.8394571275297391252@greenwired.com> References: <19732f46f46.12bccf2b24792884.8394571275297391252@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <580b81c811b63af0636cd4b6abddacdb@mail.gmail.com> Andrew: If the temp sensor fails the system will shut down. As a temporary measure you can put a 2.2k resister across the temp sensor terminals. This simulates a temperature of about 70 Degrees F. See attached. The manual section 10.5 on page 88 describes menu 280 and how to calculate a password based on operating hours. If you don’t have a manual it can be found here . William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Monday, June 2, 2025 4:23 PM *To:* Re Wrenches *Cc:* Andrew Perkins *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SMA SI Temp sensor + password Anyone know where I can find a new temp sensor for an SMA Sunny Island? None of my vendors seem to have one. Also does anyone recall the default password? I want to say it was 1111 or 0000.. yay solar trailers. Andrew Perkins Greenwired Purchasing Manger | Technical sales P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 M: 707-932-5595 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd P.O. Box 1686 Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [image: GreenWired - Badge Logo - Color 1.png] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 23285 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image_6487327.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 1574043 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Jun 2 21:04:59 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2025 01:04:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SI Temp sensor + password In-Reply-To: <19732f46f46.12bccf2b24792884.8394571275297391252@greenwired.com> References: <19732f46f46.12bccf2b24792884.8394571275297391252@greenwired.com> Message-ID: We have a bunch of new SMA temp sensors in stock if you can’t find one closer. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 250-846-9888 Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches Sent: June-02-25 4:23 PM To: Re Wrenches Cc: Andrew Perkins Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SI Temp sensor + password Anyone know where I can find a new temp sensor for an SMA Sunny Island? None of my vendors seem to have one. Also does anyone recall the default password? I want to say it was 1111 or 0000.. yay solar trailers. Andrew Perkins Greenwired Purchasing Manger | Technical sales P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 M: 707-932-5595 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd P.O. Box 1686 Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [GreenWired - Badge Logo - Color 1.png] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 32443 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Mon Jun 2 21:40:41 2025 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland - RES) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2025 15:40:41 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SI Temp sensor + password In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B5B1D53-1658-4690-A769-46E492098E0A@renewablenergy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Jun 3 14:22:16 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2025 14:22:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery vent control for lead acid Message-ID: Hi all, What are people using these days for venting a good ol' 48v flooded lead acid battery box? I am upgrading an off grid system. There is a one year old set of flooded lead acid batteries, so those will stay, but everything else will be new. I plan on using a Sol-Ark inverter. The existing battery box does not have any active ventilation, so I would like to add some. In the past, I have used the Zephyr Power Vent Fans, like this one: https://www.thesolarbiz.com/zephyr-power-vent-fan-for-48-volt-battery-systems.html They don't seem readily available, but I think I can find one somewhere. More importantly, what would you use to control this? Sol-Ark inverters do not have any kind of relay for it. I have found external controllers in the past (Yandina LLC Vent Control), but I cannot seem to find any right now. There is one noted in the fan documentation (Solar Converters, Inc. VCS1AH), but that does not seem available anywhere right now. Does anyone have a recommendation for either a vent fa controller or a whole venting solution? Thanks! -Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Jun 3 15:12:43 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2025 15:12:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery vent control for lead acid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Jun 3 16:22:01 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2025 16:22:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery vent control for lead acid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Glenn, I just looked through the manual for the Morningstar relay controller, and it looks like this should work. It can even power up to a 750mA load without needing a relay, which is more than enough to power one of those Zephyr Powervent fans. Thanks for the tip! Cheers, Dave On Tue, Jun 3, 2025 at 3:12 PM Glenn wrote: > Dave, I just pulled one of those out in a battery retrofit, I don't know > what the customer did with it... > Maybe a Morningstar relay controller could be setup using system voltage? > > > > -Glenn > > On Jun 3, 2025 14:22, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > > What are people using these days for venting a good ol' 48v flooded lead > acid battery box? I am upgrading an off grid system. There is a one year > old set of flooded lead acid batteries, so those will stay, but everything > else will be new. I plan on using a Sol-Ark inverter. The existing battery > box does not have any active ventilation, so I would like to add some. In > the past, I have used the Zephyr Power Vent Fans, like this one: > > https://www.thesolarbiz.com/zephyr-power-vent-fan-for-48-volt-battery-systems.html > They don't seem readily available, but I think I can find one somewhere. > > More importantly, what would you use to control this? Sol-Ark inverters do > not have any kind of relay for it. I have found external controllers in the > past (Yandina LLC Vent Control), but I cannot seem to find any right now. > There is one noted in the fan documentation (Solar Converters, > Inc. VCS1AH), but that does not seem available anywhere right now. Does > anyone have a recommendation for either a vent fa controller or a whole > venting solution? > > Thanks! > -Dave > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Tue Jun 3 16:29:18 2025 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2025 16:29:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery vent control for lead acid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, The Morningstar Relay Driver can work as a stand alone unit, it can derive it's power from the battery bank. This allows it to be programmed for voltage based relay operation which is ideal for vent fan applications. The relay channels are dry contacts and have a current limit of 750mA. This will run a fan somewhat larger than the good old Zephyr vents. Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 6/3/2025 2:22 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi all, > > What are people using these days for venting a good ol' 48v flooded > lead acid battery box? I am upgrading an off grid system. There is a > one year old set of flooded lead acid batteries, so those will stay, > but everything else will be new. I plan on using a Sol-Ark inverter. > The existing battery box does not have any active ventilation, so I > would like to add some. In the past, I have used the Zephyr Power Vent > Fans, like this one: > https://www.thesolarbiz.com/zephyr-power-vent-fan-for-48-volt-battery-systems.html > They don't seem readily available, but I think I can find one somewhere. > > More importantly, what would you use to control this? Sol-Ark > inverters do not have any kind of relay for it. I have found external > controllers in the past (Yandina LLC Vent Control), but I cannot seem > to find any right now. There is one noted in the fan documentation > (Solar Converters, Inc. VCS1AH), but that does not seem available > anywhere right now. Does anyone have a recommendation for either a > vent fa controller or a whole venting solution? > > Thanks! > -Dave > -- > > Logo > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 17:51:07 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2025 14:51:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery vent control for lead acid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Dave, I have had success with CPU fans, 12,24,48 vdc, 120 vac use no power and run them through a thermostat set at 80 to 90 degrees Fun times On Tue, Jun 3, 2025, 1:30 PM Roy Butler via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Dave, > > The Morningstar Relay Driver can work as a stand alone unit, it can derive > it's power from the battery bank. > This allows it to be programmed for voltage based relay operation which is > ideal for vent fan applications. > > The relay channels are dry contacts and have a current limit of 750mA. > This will run a fan somewhat larger > than the good old Zephyr vents. > > Roy Butler > Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC8902 Route 46 , Arkport, NY 14807 > 607-324-9747 > > Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. > > “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” > > Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, > a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. > > > > On 6/3/2025 2:22 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi all, > > What are people using these days for venting a good ol' 48v flooded lead > acid battery box? I am upgrading an off grid system. There is a one year > old set of flooded lead acid batteries, so those will stay, but everything > else will be new. I plan on using a Sol-Ark inverter. The existing battery > box does not have any active ventilation, so I would like to add some. In > the past, I have used the Zephyr Power Vent Fans, like this one: > > https://www.thesolarbiz.com/zephyr-power-vent-fan-for-48-volt-battery-systems.html > They don't seem readily available, but I think I can find one somewhere. > > More importantly, what would you use to control this? Sol-Ark inverters do > not have any kind of relay for it. I have found external controllers in the > past (Yandina LLC Vent Control), but I cannot seem to find any right now. > There is one noted in the fan documentation (Solar Converters, > Inc. VCS1AH), but that does not seem available anywhere right now. Does > anyone have a recommendation for either a vent fa controller or a whole > venting solution? > > Thanks! > -Dave > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. > > > | Ithaca, > NY 14850 > > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 21:46:45 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2025 19:46:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery vent control for lead acid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0EABEFD9-779F-4D5F-984F-8F44BB2C9953@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Jun 3 22:11:08 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2025 19:11:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery vent control for lead acid In-Reply-To: <0EABEFD9-779F-4D5F-984F-8F44BB2C9953@gmail.com> References: <0EABEFD9-779F-4D5F-984F-8F44BB2C9953@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Wrenches... It's not a good idea to run this based on temperature... You want the fan to come on when the batteries are gassing. If the battery temperature is cold and they are charging, it could still be gassing. This would result in the fan not running and potentially lead to hydrogen ignition. Typically, you turn the fan on at or just above float voltage, and it runs until the voltage falls .2 to .4 volts below the float voltage. You want the fan to be sealed and brushless so that there is no chance that it'll ignite the hydrogen being expelled from the box. If the fan is sealed like the zephyr fans, it won't corrode. If you are tying a Sol Ark inverter to a lead-acid bank, it's a good idea to contact Sol Ark and have them push the firmware that allows you to adjust the tail current time. With their tail current set to only 10 mins and no way to program absorb timers, this will result in chronically undercharged FLA/AGM or GEL batteries. You should use the EQ V, EQ Time, and EQ Frequency to simulate a normal bulk/absorb timer... Depending solely on the tail current for the time of every charge cycle will result in undercharging issues. Typically, the EQ frequency is set from 2-7 days for full-time systems or 14 to 30 days for backup or lightly loaded systems. Another thing to keep in mind is that they utilize the battery's internal resistance to increase charging voltage and current, which is supposed to help break up sulfation. From my experience, this cooks the battery. The issue with this is that it's not temperature-compensated. I would defeat this by setting the internal resistance to 0 or 1 mΩ. What happens here is that if the measured internal resistance is higher than programmed, it'll bump up the voltage and current to lower that resistance. If the battery is already sulfated, it'll become so hot that it'll gas very quickly. Alternatively, if it's an AGM or GEL battery, it'll cook the battery electrolyte, causing the bank to dry out, swell, and fail. In the past, I have seen them charge at over 66 volts. Since disabling this, I have not seen the Sol Arks do this. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Jun 3, 2025 at 6:47 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > It’s a good idea to go with ac fan. > Simple and easy > And there isn’t any charging if the inverter goes down. > Jay > > > On Jun 3, 2025, at 3:52 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Wrenches, Dave, > > I have had success with CPU fans, 12,24,48 vdc, 120 vac use no power and > run them through a thermostat set at 80 to 90 degrees > > Fun times > > On Tue, Jun 3, 2025, 1:30 PM Roy Butler via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Dave, >> >> The Morningstar Relay Driver can work as a stand alone unit, it can >> derive it's power from the battery bank. >> This allows it to be programmed for voltage based relay operation which >> is ideal for vent fan applications. >> >> The relay channels are dry contacts and have a current limit of 750mA. >> This will run a fan somewhat larger >> than the good old Zephyr vents. >> >> Roy Butler >> Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC8902 Route 46 , Arkport, NY 14807 >> 607-324-9747 >> >> Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. >> >> “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” >> >> Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, >> a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. >> >> >> >> On 6/3/2025 2:22 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> What are people using these days for venting a good ol' 48v flooded lead >> acid battery box? I am upgrading an off grid system. There is a one year >> old set of flooded lead acid batteries, so those will stay, but everything >> else will be new. I plan on using a Sol-Ark inverter. The existing battery >> box does not have any active ventilation, so I would like to add some. In >> the past, I have used the Zephyr Power Vent Fans, like this one: >> >> https://www.thesolarbiz.com/zephyr-power-vent-fan-for-48-volt-battery-systems.html >> They don't seem readily available, but I think I can find one somewhere. >> >> More importantly, what would you use to control this? Sol-Ark inverters >> do not have any kind of relay for it. I have found external controllers in >> the past (Yandina LLC Vent Control), but I cannot seem to find any right >> now. There is one noted in the fan documentation (Solar Converters, >> Inc. VCS1AH), but that does not seem available anywhere right now. Does >> anyone have a recommendation for either a vent fa controller or a whole >> venting solution? >> >> Thanks! >> -Dave >> -- >> >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >> >> >> | Ithaca, >> NY 14850 >> >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 4 07:45:17 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 07:45:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Warranty Support Message-ID: We have had this discussion before. I'm afraid to say – it's not getting any better. I have been dealing with a faulty 15K for months. I replaced boards after waiting an inordinate amount of time for parts. I fought with tech support over getting the unit replaced. They finally relented. Now all I want is an advanced replacement unit. After much back and forth about the process, I agreed to pay $3,000 for a deposit, plus shipping. They can't even seem to get that right. They can't get their invoice portal to allow me to pay them. Total incompetence. I can't see myself selling another Sol-Ark unit until they get their act together and liberalize their warranty processing policies. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Jun 4 08:08:50 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 05:08:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Warranty Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A few years ago I took SolArk to small claims court. I kept meticulous records, logging months of their disappointing denials and botched tech support. SolArk legal department tried to shift legal jurisdiction from my local country to their Texas jurisdiction. It was an insult to my intelligence. Needless to say I didn’t sign that document of theirs. They settled the day before the court date. via electronic funds transfer SolArk paid the full amount I had asked for. The frustrating and ridiculous part is that it would have cost *them* much less if they had just provided good service. For me it boils down to: what manufacturer provides the flexible functionality my customers need, high quality monitoring, and the most reliable up-time? I’ve decided to stick with SolArk, and I regularly sing their praises. But when they don’t act right, they force our hand. If enough installers hold them accountable, my hope is that their Warranty/ Customer Service Department will get real. They also need to pay for the labor associated with failed components, just like most other ethical manufacturers have done for decades. On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 4:46 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We have had this discussion before. I'm afraid to say – it's not getting > any better. > > I have been dealing with a faulty 15K for months. I replaced boards after > waiting an inordinate amount of time for parts. I fought with tech support > over getting the unit replaced. They finally relented. Now all I want is an > advanced replacement unit. After much back and forth about the process, I > agreed to pay $3,000 for a deposit, plus shipping. They can't even seem to > get that right. They can't get their invoice portal to allow me to pay them. > > Total incompetence. > > I can't see myself selling another Sol-Ark unit until they get their > act together and liberalize their warranty processing policies. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Jun 4 08:35:50 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 12:35:50 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery vent control for lead acid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Site looks active [updated 3/2025.] My 48volt zephyr fan is still working great since installed in 2015. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery vent control for lead acid Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2025 18:22:16 +0000 Size: 16357 URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Wed Jun 4 09:07:49 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 03:07:49 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Warranty Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aloha All, Unfortunately, we have found that emailing or calling Sol-Ark (and most other manufacturers) daily about RMA's is the only way to move the ball forward. Even doing that it is, taking us about a month from the first tech support call to receiving the RMA unit. They did charge us a deposit ($2,300) for the first time last month and then they failed to include a return shipping label. Compared to SolarEdge, Sol-Ark appears fast and competent. As far as labor compensation, who else beside Enphase is paying out? Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 2:09 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > A few years ago I took SolArk to small claims court. I kept meticulous > records, logging months of their disappointing denials and botched tech > support. SolArk legal department tried to shift legal jurisdiction from my > local country to their Texas jurisdiction. It was an insult to my > intelligence. Needless to say I didn’t sign that document of theirs. > They settled the day before the court date. via electronic funds > transfer SolArk paid the full amount I had asked for. The frustrating and > ridiculous part is that it would have cost *them* much less if they had > just provided good service. > For me it boils down to: what manufacturer provides the flexible > functionality my customers need, high quality monitoring, and the most > reliable up-time? I’ve decided to stick with SolArk, and I regularly sing > their praises. > But when they don’t act right, they force our hand. If enough > installers hold them accountable, my hope is that their Warranty/ Customer > Service Department will get real. They also need to pay for the labor > associated with failed components, just like most other ethical > manufacturers have done for decades. > > > > > On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 4:46 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We have had this discussion before. I'm afraid to say – it's not getting >> any better. >> >> I have been dealing with a faulty 15K for months. I replaced boards after >> waiting an inordinate amount of time for parts. I fought with tech support >> over getting the unit replaced. They finally relented. Now all I want is an >> advanced replacement unit. After much back and forth about the process, I >> agreed to pay $3,000 for a deposit, plus shipping. They can't even seem to >> get that right. They can't get their invoice portal to allow me to pay them. >> >> Total incompetence. >> >> I can't see myself selling another Sol-Ark unit until they get their >> act together and liberalize their warranty processing policies. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Jun 4 09:52:14 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 06:52:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Warranty Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SMA, Fronius, and Generac all pay labor reimbursement. On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 6:09 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Aloha All, > > Unfortunately, we have found that emailing or calling Sol-Ark (and most > other manufacturers) daily about RMA's is the only way to move the ball > forward. Even doing that it is, taking us about a month from the first tech > support call to receiving the RMA unit. They did charge us a deposit > ($2,300) for the first time last month and then they failed to include a > return shipping label. Compared to SolarEdge, Sol-Ark appears fast and > competent. > > As far as labor compensation, who else beside Enphase is paying out? > > Aloha, > Lou Russo > Spree Solar Systems LLC > C-34322 > > > > On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 2:09 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> A few years ago I took SolArk to small claims court. I kept meticulous >> records, logging months of their disappointing denials and botched tech >> support. SolArk legal department tried to shift legal jurisdiction from my >> local country to their Texas jurisdiction. It was an insult to my >> intelligence. Needless to say I didn’t sign that document of theirs. >> They settled the day before the court date. via electronic funds >> transfer SolArk paid the full amount I had asked for. The frustrating and >> ridiculous part is that it would have cost *them* much less if they had >> just provided good service. >> For me it boils down to: what manufacturer provides the flexible >> functionality my customers need, high quality monitoring, and the most >> reliable up-time? I’ve decided to stick with SolArk, and I regularly sing >> their praises. >> But when they don’t act right, they force our hand. If enough >> installers hold them accountable, my hope is that their Warranty/ Customer >> Service Department will get real. They also need to pay for the labor >> associated with failed components, just like most other ethical >> manufacturers have done for decades. >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 4:46 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> We have had this discussion before. I'm afraid to say – it's not getting >>> any better. >>> >>> I have been dealing with a faulty 15K for months. I replaced boards >>> after waiting an inordinate amount of time for parts. I fought with tech >>> support over getting the unit replaced. They finally relented. Now all I >>> want is an advanced replacement unit. After much back and forth about the >>> process, I agreed to pay $3,000 for a deposit, plus shipping. They can't >>> even seem to get that right. They can't get their invoice portal to allow >>> me to pay them. >>> >>> Total incompetence. >>> >>> I can't see myself selling another Sol-Ark unit until they get their >>> act together and liberalize their warranty processing policies. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 10:14:01 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 07:14:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Warranty Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's interesting that you say Sol-Ark has been fast and competent in comparison to solaredge... that hasn't been my experience at all. In my dealings Sol-Ark has been responsive only when pressured repeatedly and confidently, required a large deposit for RMAs, reluctant to provide return labels, and taking longer to ship than any other inverter manufacturer I've dealt with. On the other hand, despite a frustrating weakness for surges and grid events, solaredge has been quick to RMA and ship advance replacements and accept fault with basic tests/checks or any visual confirmation of internal damage. Sometimes even shipping same day or next day(a couple months ago I got an advance replacement within 3 business days!). This is not an endorsement for Solaredge in any way but I find it interesting how dramatically installer's experiences can vary. My hope is all these manufacturers step their game up in the customer support department! Sunny Regards, Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Wed, Jun 4, 2025, 6:08 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Aloha All, > > Unfortunately, we have found that emailing or calling Sol-Ark (and most > other manufacturers) daily about RMA's is the only way to move the ball > forward. Even doing that it is, taking us about a month from the first tech > support call to receiving the RMA unit. They did charge us a deposit > ($2,300) for the first time last month and then they failed to include a > return shipping label. Compared to SolarEdge, Sol-Ark appears fast and > competent. > > As far as labor compensation, who else beside Enphase is paying out? > > Aloha, > Lou Russo > Spree Solar Systems LLC > C-34322 > > > > On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 2:09 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> A few years ago I took SolArk to small claims court. I kept meticulous >> records, logging months of their disappointing denials and botched tech >> support. SolArk legal department tried to shift legal jurisdiction from my >> local country to their Texas jurisdiction. It was an insult to my >> intelligence. Needless to say I didn’t sign that document of theirs. >> They settled the day before the court date. via electronic funds >> transfer SolArk paid the full amount I had asked for. The frustrating and >> ridiculous part is that it would have cost *them* much less if they had >> just provided good service. >> For me it boils down to: what manufacturer provides the flexible >> functionality my customers need, high quality monitoring, and the most >> reliable up-time? I’ve decided to stick with SolArk, and I regularly sing >> their praises. >> But when they don’t act right, they force our hand. If enough >> installers hold them accountable, my hope is that their Warranty/ Customer >> Service Department will get real. They also need to pay for the labor >> associated with failed components, just like most other ethical >> manufacturers have done for decades. >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 4:46 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> We have had this discussion before. I'm afraid to say – it's not getting >>> any better. >>> >>> I have been dealing with a faulty 15K for months. I replaced boards >>> after waiting an inordinate amount of time for parts. I fought with tech >>> support over getting the unit replaced. They finally relented. Now all I >>> want is an advanced replacement unit. After much back and forth about the >>> process, I agreed to pay $3,000 for a deposit, plus shipping. They can't >>> even seem to get that right. They can't get their invoice portal to allow >>> me to pay them. >>> >>> Total incompetence. >>> >>> I can't see myself selling another Sol-Ark unit until they get their >>> act together and liberalize their warranty processing policies. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 10:18:33 2025 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 10:18:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Warranty Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To me, and in our experience, Solaredge has the title in "jump through all our hoops, then when you've done that, we have more for you to jump through" along with long wait times for call backs and an absolutely useless chat feature. Daryl DeJoy Island Energy Storage On Wed, Jun 4, 2025, 10:15 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That's interesting that you say Sol-Ark has been fast and competent in > comparison to solaredge... that hasn't been my experience at all. In my > dealings Sol-Ark has been responsive only when pressured repeatedly and > confidently, required a large deposit for RMAs, reluctant to provide return > labels, and taking longer to ship than any other inverter manufacturer I've > dealt with. On the other hand, despite a frustrating weakness for surges > and grid events, solaredge has been quick to RMA and ship advance > replacements and accept fault with basic tests/checks or any visual > confirmation of internal damage. Sometimes even shipping same day or next > day(a couple months ago I got an advance replacement within 3 business > days!). This is not an endorsement for Solaredge in any way but I find it > interesting how dramatically installer's experiences can vary. My hope is > all these manufacturers step their game up in the customer support > department! > Sunny Regards, > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > On Wed, Jun 4, 2025, 6:08 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Aloha All, >> >> Unfortunately, we have found that emailing or calling Sol-Ark (and most >> other manufacturers) daily about RMA's is the only way to move the ball >> forward. Even doing that it is, taking us about a month from the first tech >> support call to receiving the RMA unit. They did charge us a deposit >> ($2,300) for the first time last month and then they failed to include a >> return shipping label. Compared to SolarEdge, Sol-Ark appears fast and >> competent. >> >> As far as labor compensation, who else beside Enphase is paying out? >> >> Aloha, >> Lou Russo >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> C-34322 >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 2:09 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> A few years ago I took SolArk to small claims court. I kept meticulous >>> records, logging months of their disappointing denials and botched tech >>> support. SolArk legal department tried to shift legal jurisdiction from my >>> local country to their Texas jurisdiction. It was an insult to my >>> intelligence. Needless to say I didn’t sign that document of theirs. >>> They settled the day before the court date. via electronic funds >>> transfer SolArk paid the full amount I had asked for. The frustrating and >>> ridiculous part is that it would have cost *them* much less if they had >>> just provided good service. >>> For me it boils down to: what manufacturer provides the flexible >>> functionality my customers need, high quality monitoring, and the most >>> reliable up-time? I’ve decided to stick with SolArk, and I regularly sing >>> their praises. >>> But when they don’t act right, they force our hand. If enough >>> installers hold them accountable, my hope is that their Warranty/ Customer >>> Service Department will get real. They also need to pay for the labor >>> associated with failed components, just like most other ethical >>> manufacturers have done for decades. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 4:46 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> We have had this discussion before. I'm afraid to say – it's not >>>> getting any better. >>>> >>>> I have been dealing with a faulty 15K for months. I replaced boards >>>> after waiting an inordinate amount of time for parts. I fought with tech >>>> support over getting the unit replaced. They finally relented. Now all I >>>> want is an advanced replacement unit. After much back and forth about the >>>> process, I agreed to pay $3,000 for a deposit, plus shipping. They can't >>>> even seem to get that right. They can't get their invoice portal to allow >>>> me to pay them. >>>> >>>> Total incompetence. >>>> >>>> I can't see myself selling another Sol-Ark unit until they get their >>>> act together and liberalize their warranty processing policies. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Jun 4 10:52:11 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2025 10:52:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Technical Question Message-ID: <63afd5cd4afaa46b21454de49f0b2af1@redwoodalliance.org> Sol-Ark has not been available to answer a question. We need to reduce the AC amperage input and output on a system. Tech support had assured us that this can be done, prior to installing the system. It is unclear how to do this. Does anyone know how to adjust the AC in and AC out maximum amperage on the 15kW Sol-Ark inverters? -- _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 4 11:10:20 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 11:10:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Technical Question In-Reply-To: <63afd5cd4afaa46b21454de49f0b2af1@redwoodalliance.org> References: <63afd5cd4afaa46b21454de49f0b2af1@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: If I understand the question correctly, you can use Time of Use to set the maximum charge or sell power in watts for up to 6 time slots. I believe this will limit only the battery charge or discharge rate, however. I don't believe this will limit the total input (loads plus battery charging). You can limit the total sell power with the Grid Sell feature in the System Work Mode settings. The Max Sell Power should limit the total solar export plus battery selling to this setting. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 10:55 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Sol-Ark has not been available to answer a question. > > We need to reduce the AC amperage input and output on a system. Tech > support had assured us that this can be done, prior to installing the > system. It is unclear how to do this. > > Does anyone know how to adjust the AC in and AC out maximum amperage on > the 15kW Sol-Ark inverters? > > -- > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com Wed Jun 4 17:03:41 2025 From: Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com (Poole, Jharen) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 21:03:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Technical Question In-Reply-To: References: <63afd5cd4afaa46b21454de49f0b2af1@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hello, I'd like to get this question resolved for you as quickly as possible. Could you please reach out to me at jharen.poole at sol-ark.com with the details of how much power or amperage you’d like to limit for this installation? Additionally, please include any relevant information about the inverter and its setup—such as inverter SN, whether it’s configured for zero net metering or any other specific setup. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:6beeb26a-0c03-40c8-9e41-b9064b37f55e] ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 10:10 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski ; Wodenrobert23 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Technical Question Caution: This email is from an external source. If I understand the question correctly, you can use Time of Use to set the maximum charge or sell power in watts for up to 6 time slots. I believe this will limit only the battery charge or discharge rate, however. I don't believe this will limit the total input (loads plus battery charging). You can limit the total sell power with the Grid Sell feature in the System Work Mode settings. The Max Sell Power should limit the total solar export plus battery selling to this setting. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 10:55 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: Sol-Ark has not been available to answer a question. We need to reduce the AC amperage input and output on a system. Tech support had assured us that this can be done, prior to installing the system. It is unclear how to do this. Does anyone know how to adjust the AC in and AC out maximum amperage on the 15kW Sol-Ark inverters? -- Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-t2yohww0.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: Outlook-t2yohww0.png URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 4 19:38:22 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 19:38:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant With HomeGrid Message-ID: Has anyone connected HomeGrid Stack'd batteries to Solar Assistant? There doesn't seem to be much information on whether they are compatible or what cord to use. And if it is possible, what monitoring capabilities exist, and do you need to connect to each stack, or does the master BMS handle all batteries in all stacks? Or is it even necessary to connect them if they are connected to Sol-Arks that are on the Solar Assistant? Thanks, Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 21:18:27 2025 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 19:18:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum coming back? Message-ID: Just saw this on my Linked In. I really liked Magnum products and tech support before their quality, and I have many in the field. I was becoming concerned that if an inverter failed, all the associated networked products like the battery SOC monitor, web interface and AGS would be useless. Let's hope DMX can do a better job than Outback did... DMX Power Acquires Magnum Energy, Dimensions, and CSW Product Lines from Sensata Technologies; Manufacturing Returns to the U.S. *April 2025* – DMX Power LLC is proud to announce the successful acquisition of the Magnum Energy, Dimensions, and CSW product lines from Sensata Technologies. This strategic move marks a significant milestone as DMX Power brings manufacturing for the Magnum Energy and Dimensions brands back to the United States, with operations set to resume in Minnesota. The decision underscores the company's commitment to enhancing quality control, improving lead times, and delivering best-in-class service. Founded by former employees with deep expertise in these legacy brands, DMX Power has spent the past several months working to restore ownership and rebuild the operational foundation. Many skilled team members who were instrumental in the original success of Magnum and Dimensions have rejoined the company, reinforcing DMX Power’s mission to put customers first. Our goal is to restore the standards of quality, responsiveness, and service that our customers deserve. While most product specifications will remain unchanged, DMX Power plans to release updated product details and 2025 pricing in April. Customers are encouraged to contact their sales representatives or email support at dmx-power.com for technical inquiries and sales at dmx-power.com for commercial requests, including orders, partnerships, or connecting with our sales team. Initial manufacturing of select Magnum and Dimensions products will begin in May, with shipments anticipated in June. Select CSW products, along with remaining inventory acquired from Sensata, will be available as early as April. Further updates on product availability and launch timelines will be provided in the coming weeks. For more information, customers can contact DMX Power directly. DMX Power thanks its partners and customers for their continued support during this exciting new chapter. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jun 4 23:29:03 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 20:29:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Technical Question In-Reply-To: References: <63afd5cd4afaa46b21454de49f0b2af1@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I would like to know how to set this up as well, and so would many, I am certain. For off-grid installations this is a must-have feature. Please let us know how to adjust this and please include instructions in future O&M manuals. Let us know you received this request. Thank you. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 2:04 PM Poole, Jharen via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello, > > I'd like to get this question resolved for you as quickly as possible. > Could you please reach out to me at jharen.poole at sol-ark.com with the > details of how much power or amperage you’d like to limit for this > installation? Additionally, please include any relevant information about > the inverter and its setup—such as inverter SN, whether it’s configured for > zero net metering or any other specific setup. > > Best Regards, > > Jharen Poole > Applications Engineer II > 972-575-8875 > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 4, 2025 10:10 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski ; Wodenrobert23 > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Technical Question > > Caution: This email is from an external source. > > > If I understand the question correctly, you can use Time of Use to set the > maximum charge or sell power in watts for up to 6 time slots. I believe > this will limit only the battery charge or discharge rate, however. I don't > believe this will limit the total input (loads plus battery charging). You > can limit the total sell power with the Grid Sell feature in the System > Work Mode settings. The Max Sell Power should limit the total solar export > plus battery selling to this setting. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 10:55 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Sol-Ark has not been available to answer a question. > > We need to reduce the AC amperage input and output on a system. Tech > support had assured us that this can be done, prior to installing the > system. It is unclear how to do this. > > Does anyone know how to adjust the AC in and AC out maximum amperage on > the 15kW Sol-Ark inverters? > > -- > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-t2yohww0.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Jun 5 15:02:10 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 19:02:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APSmart RSD devices on Sol-Ark: how many strings can go thru one coil? Message-ID: Before this, never had need to install RSD with Sol-Ark but doing project now that does. SolArk manual very clear on the pins to use but the APSmart manual leaves some open questions. Question is: How many strings of PV Modules can I route through single coil? Here we have four strings of 9-modules so I'm well below max string length of 30. But the manual is silent on number of strings through a coil. There is max amperage rating thru the coil (which looks like CT) but is it just one string per coil? Hope not. Each APSmart transmitter can handle two coils. Here is pic for reference from the SolArk manual. [cid:2c8a1b4e-6797-43be-b335-109f3bdd8bee] Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 [cid:2c835b0f-22f2-4dee-b217-58bc30b15096] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 679754 bytes Desc: image.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-xkjfzqf2.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: Outlook-xkjfzqf2.png URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Jun 5 15:17:57 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 15:17:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APSmart RSD devices on Sol-Ark: how many strings can go thru one coil? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Scott, Attached is the datasheet for the AP smart transmitter. It has data on maximum current, modules, and number of strings. However, I have a follow up question. This datasheet also says that the coil is 12V, 800mA. But the Sol-Ark manual specifies 12V, 100mA. Has anyone had issues with the Sol-Ark not being able to properly power the coil? Cheers, Dave On Thu, Jun 5, 2025 at 3:03 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Before this, never had need to install RSD with Sol-Ark but doing project > now that does. SolArk manual very clear on the pins to use but the APSmart > manual leaves some open questions. > > Question is: How many strings of PV Modules can I route through single > coil? > > Here we have four strings of 9-modules so I'm well below max string length > of 30. But the manual is silent on number of strings through a coil. There > is max amperage rating thru the coil (which looks like CT) but is it just > one string per coil? Hope not. Each APSmart transmitter can handle two > coils. Here is pic for reference from the SolArk manual. > > > *Howard "Scot" Arey* > *Owner, Solar CenTex* > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > TECL 29755 > 254-300-1228 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 679754 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-xkjfzqf2.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 4301515202_Transmitter-PLC-datasheet_Rev2.4_2022-06-20.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 362960 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Thu Jun 5 15:29:40 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 12:29:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APSmart RSD devices on Sol-Ark: how many strings can go thru one coil? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I Have had problems with that. don’t recommend pushing the SolArk 12v supply any more than they will warranty. On Thu, Jun 5, 2025 at 12:19 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Scott, > > Attached is the datasheet for the AP smart transmitter. It has data on > maximum current, modules, and number of strings. > > However, I have a follow up question. This datasheet also says that the > coil is 12V, 800mA. But the Sol-Ark manual specifies 12V, 100mA. Has anyone > had issues with the Sol-Ark not being able to properly power the coil? > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2025 at 3:03 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Before this, never had need to install RSD with Sol-Ark but doing project >> now that does. SolArk manual very clear on the pins to use but the APSmart >> manual leaves some open questions. >> >> Question is: How many strings of PV Modules can I route through single >> coil? >> >> Here we have four strings of 9-modules so I'm well below max string >> length of 30. But the manual is silent on number of strings through a coil. >> There is max amperage rating thru the coil (which looks like CT) but is it >> just one string per coil? Hope not. Each APSmart transmitter can handle two >> coils. Here is pic for reference from the SolArk manual. >> >> >> *Howard "Scot" Arey* >> *Owner, Solar CenTex* >> >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> TECL 29755 >> 254-300-1228 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 679754 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-xkjfzqf2.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Jun 5 15:34:06 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 15:34:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APSmart RSD devices on Sol-Ark: how many strings can go thru one coil? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, Good to hear you experience here. I can say that Tigo's transmitter shows up to 1A of input current. But it also specifies a max/avg power consumption of 5.5W/.85W. I have used this one on one system and there were no issues with it. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Jun 5, 2025 at 3:29 PM david quattro wrote: > I Have had problems with that. don’t recommend pushing the SolArk 12v > supply any more than they will warranty. > > > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2025 at 12:19 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Scott, >> >> Attached is the datasheet for the AP smart transmitter. It has data on >> maximum current, modules, and number of strings. >> >> However, I have a follow up question. This datasheet also says that the >> coil is 12V, 800mA. But the Sol-Ark manual specifies 12V, 100mA. Has anyone >> had issues with the Sol-Ark not being able to properly power the coil? >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Thu, Jun 5, 2025 at 3:03 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Before this, never had need to install RSD with Sol-Ark but doing >>> project now that does. SolArk manual very clear on the pins to use but the >>> APSmart manual leaves some open questions. >>> >>> Question is: How many strings of PV Modules can I route through single >>> coil? >>> >>> Here we have four strings of 9-modules so I'm well below max string >>> length of 30. But the manual is silent on number of strings through a coil. >>> There is max amperage rating thru the coil (which looks like CT) but is it >>> just one string per coil? Hope not. Each APSmart transmitter can handle two >>> coils. Here is pic for reference from the SolArk manual. >>> >>> >>> *Howard "Scot" Arey* >>> *Owner, Solar CenTex* >>> >>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >>> TECL 29755 >>> 254-300-1228 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 679754 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-xkjfzqf2.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 680fae5df8b93aad651a7e39_002-00146-00 1.4 Datasheet RSS w PCBA 20250411 - EN.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1081332 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 15:50:47 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 12:50:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APSmart RSD devices on Sol-Ark: how many strings can go thru one coil? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here's three drawings of ways to do it without using the 12VDC RSD output of the Sol-Ark. I think I remember that closing terminals 11 and 12 on the Sol-Ark will shut it down, necessary to eliminate voltage backfeed from the PV input terminals to the array. Brad Bassett On Thu, Jun 5, 2025 at 12:35 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > David, > > Good to hear you experience here. I can say that Tigo's transmitter shows > up to 1A of input current. But it also specifies a max/avg power > consumption of 5.5W/.85W. I have used this one on one system and there were > no issues with it. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2025 at 3:29 PM david quattro > wrote: > >> I Have had problems with that. don’t recommend pushing the SolArk 12v >> supply any more than they will warranty. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 5, 2025 at 12:19 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Scott, >>> >>> Attached is the datasheet for the AP smart transmitter. It has data on >>> maximum current, modules, and number of strings. >>> >>> However, I have a follow up question. This datasheet also says that the >>> coil is 12V, 800mA. But the Sol-Ark manual specifies 12V, 100mA. Has anyone >>> had issues with the Sol-Ark not being able to properly power the coil? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2025 at 3:03 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Before this, never had need to install RSD with Sol-Ark but doing >>>> project now that does. SolArk manual very clear on the pins to use but the >>>> APSmart manual leaves some open questions. >>>> >>>> Question is: How many strings of PV Modules can I route through single >>>> coil? >>>> >>>> Here we have four strings of 9-modules so I'm well below max string >>>> length of 30. But the manual is silent on number of strings through a coil. >>>> There is max amperage rating thru the coil (which looks like CT) but is it >>>> just one string per coil? Hope not. Each APSmart transmitter can handle two >>>> coils. Here is pic for reference from the SolArk manual. >>>> >>>> >>>> *Howard "Scot" Arey* >>>> *Owner, Solar CenTex* >>>> >>>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >>>> TECL 29755 >>>> 254-300-1228 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 679754 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-xkjfzqf2.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MLRSD APS Sol-Ark Control Wiring.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 90149 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MLRSD APS Sol-Ark Relay Control Wiring.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 91767 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MLRSD APS Sol-Ark switch relay Control Wiring.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 106580 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Fri Jun 6 09:17:01 2025 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nicholas Ponzio) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2025 09:17:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire Rating for Battery Room Message-ID: For those of you installing batteries inside homes how are you treating this poorly-worded section of Code? *NFPA 855 - 15.4.2:* *If the room or space where the ESS is to be installed is not finished or non-combustible, the walls and ceilings of the room or space shall be protected with not less than 5/8 in. Type X gypsum board.* This section of fire code has given us much consternation over the years. Most installations in this climate are going into unfinished basements. Are you all installing 5/8 sheetrock for the entire basement? Just the area around the batteries? Something else? Thanks in advance for any thoughts. -- Nicholas Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri Jun 6 10:10:42 2025 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2025 10:10:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery vent control for lead acid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: G'day Solar Bozo's of old, lol, I've found that over the years the zephyr just doesn't pull enough cfm's. My solution was to use the Rule 240-24V. I buy them from amazon for around $70. These are generally used to vent boats prior to starting the engine and are US Coast Guard approved. I normally mount them to the top of the battery box and allow at least 12" before I vent to an outside wall. I buy a 4" - 3" rubber adapter in the plumbing department of Lowe's with the 4" attached to the blower, the 3" to sch 40 pvc piping. Make sure you screen the outdoor section to eliminate critters and flying pests. The cfm is around 200. Unfortunately, they do not offer a 48v unit so I just tap 24 volts off of the battery bank (Steve H is gonna kill me on this one, lol) and I use a 12v relay. For those inverters that don't offer a signal or dry contact the Morningstar four channel relay driver works. It has a ton of options. Hope this is helpful. Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Guy, Christopher On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 8:37 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Site looks active [updated 3/2025.] > > > > My 48volt zephyr fan is still working great since installed in 2015. > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri Jun 6 10:43:44 2025 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2025 10:43:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum coming back? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the update Dan. Certainly keeping my fingers crossed, lol. Christopher On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 9:19 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Just saw this on my Linked In. I really liked Magnum products and tech > support before their quality, and I have many in the field. I was becoming > concerned that if an inverter failed, all the associated networked products > like the battery SOC monitor, web interface and AGS would be useless. Let's > hope DMX can do a better job than Outback did... > > DMX Power Acquires Magnum Energy, Dimensions, and CSW Product Lines from > Sensata Technologies; Manufacturing Returns to the U.S. > > *April 2025* – DMX Power LLC is proud to announce the successful > acquisition of the Magnum Energy, Dimensions, and CSW product lines from > Sensata Technologies. This strategic move marks a significant milestone as > DMX Power brings manufacturing for the Magnum Energy and Dimensions brands > back to the United States, with operations set to resume in Minnesota. The > decision underscores the company's commitment to enhancing quality control, > improving lead times, and delivering best-in-class service. > > Founded by former employees with deep expertise in these legacy brands, > DMX Power has spent the past several months working to restore ownership > and rebuild the operational foundation. Many skilled team members who were > instrumental in the original success of Magnum and Dimensions have rejoined > the company, reinforcing DMX Power’s mission to put customers first. > > Our goal is to restore the standards of quality, responsiveness, and > service that our customers deserve. > > While most product specifications will remain unchanged, DMX Power plans > to release updated product details and 2025 pricing in April. Customers are > encouraged to contact their sales representatives or email > support at dmx-power.com > for > technical inquiries and sales at dmx-power.com > for > commercial requests, including orders, partnerships, or connecting with our > sales team. > > Initial manufacturing of select Magnum and Dimensions products will begin > in May, with shipments anticipated in June. Select CSW products, along with > remaining inventory acquired from Sensata, will be available as early as > April. > > Further updates on product availability and launch timelines will be > provided in the coming weeks. For more information, customers can contact > DMX Power directly. > > DMX Power thanks its partners and customers for their continued support > during this exciting new chapter. > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jun 6 14:09:42 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2025 11:09:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire Rating for Battery Room In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <614d4f47464af8d320b19a69ac7815b6@sti.net> Any thoughts from me would be not to have large batteries, unless detached from the living space. There is a ship out burning full of electric cars in the Pacific today. This is the 4th ship full of battery cars that I know of that has burned. https://gcaptain.com/coast-guard-overflight-footage-reveals-fire-spreading-on-morning-midas-car-carrier-off-alaska-coast/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-06-06 6:17 am, Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches wrote: > For those of you installing batteries inside homes how are you treating > this poorly-worded section of Code? > > NFPA 855 - 15.4.2: > _If the room or space where the ESS is to be installed is not finished > or non-combustible, the walls and ceilings of the room or space shall > be protected with not less than 5/8 in. Type X gypsum board._ > _ _ > This section of fire code has given us much consternation over the > years. Most installations in this climate are going into unfinished > basements. Are you all installing 5/8 sheetrock for the entire > basement? Just the area around the batteries? Something else? > > Thanks in advance for any thoughts. > > -- > Nicholas Ponzio > Building Energy > 1570 South Brownell Road > Williston, VT 05495 > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com [1] > > "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.buildingenergyvt.com/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 34f41ced.png Type: image/png Size: 955854 bytes Desc: not available URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Jun 5 20:04:17 2025 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2025 17:04:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin post, message size limit reminder Message-ID: <1749171555636.45f9ff64622fadf8@re-wrenches.org> Hi gang if you have any questions or concerns, please contact me off-list. The message size limit for our list server is set at 3.5 MB. Anything larger than that is likely to get rejected. Message size includes your text, any quoted text, the list footers, any text and graphics in your signature, and (most significantly) any graphics attached to the message. Usually, limiting total graphics size to under 3 MB is good enough to avoid triggering the message size limit. Of course, it's also helpful for readability to avoid over-quoting messages you are responding to. Unedited quoting in responses to a chain of several replies can end up getting pretty long. Why do we have this message size limit? To help out those with slower Internet connections, and to keep from peppering everyone's disks with large attachments. From vince at solarenergydesign.com Fri Jun 6 23:59:33 2025 From: vince at solarenergydesign.com (Vince McClellan) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2025 20:59:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire Rating for Battery Room In-Reply-To: <614d4f47464af8d320b19a69ac7815b6@sti.net> References: <614d4f47464af8d320b19a69ac7815b6@sti.net> Message-ID: One option to meet this code section is to build a battery room inside of a basement or other utility space with the proper fire rating. It's not an inexpensive option, but it's often less expensive than drywalling the intire basement ceiling. And, as always, check with your AHJ before you move forward to ensure they'll pass the inspection on what you plan on building. Vince McClellan President NABCEP PV Professional p: 541-485-8122 a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 e: vince at solarenergydesign.com w: SolarEnergyDesign.com CCB# 161672 If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. On Fri, Jun 6, 2025, 11:12 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Any thoughts from me would be not to have large batteries, unless detached > from the living space. > > There is a ship out burning full of electric cars in the Pacific today. > This is the 4th ship full of battery cars that I know of that has burned. > > > https://gcaptain.com/coast-guard-overflight-footage-reveals-fire-spreading-on-morning-midas-car-carrier-off-alaska-coast/ > > > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-06-06 6:17 am, Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches wrote: > > For those of you installing batteries inside homes how are you treating > this poorly-worded section of Code? > > *NFPA 855 - 15.4.2:* > *If the room or space where the ESS is to be installed is not finished or > non-combustible, the walls and ceilings of the room or space shall be > protected with not less than 5/8 in. Type X gypsum board.* > > This section of fire code has given us much consternation over the years. > Most installations in this climate are going into unfinished basements. Are > you all installing 5/8 sheetrock for the entire basement? Just the area > around the batteries? Something else? > > Thanks in advance for any thoughts. > > > -- > Nicholas Ponzio > Building Energy > 1570 South Brownell Road > > Williston, VT 05495 > > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 34f41ced.png Type: image/png Size: 955854 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 34f41ced.png Type: image/png Size: 955854 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Sun Jun 8 13:54:55 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2025 07:54:55 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2020 705.12(E) Message-ID: Aloha All, When combining the grid and/or load connections of multiple Sol-Arks does 705.12(E) mean we do not need breaker hold downs on back-fed breakers? The language is clear but I can't believe it is that easy! Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Jun 8 16:34:50 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2025 16:34:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire Rating for Battery Room In-Reply-To: References: <614d4f47464af8d320b19a69ac7815b6@sti.net> Message-ID: One downside to this is that you are now potentially in a utility room rather than a garage, and the capacity limit per NFPA might be 40 kWh rather than 80 kWh. I have yet to see an AHJ require an entire room/garage to be fireproofed, but I am sure they would if they were clued in. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Jun 7, 2025 at 12:01 AM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > One option to meet this code section is to build a battery room inside of > a basement or other utility space with the proper fire rating. It's not an > inexpensive option, but it's often less expensive than drywalling the > intire basement ceiling. > > And, as always, check with your AHJ before you move forward to ensure > they'll pass the inspection on what you plan on building. > > > > Vince McClellan > > President > > NABCEP PV Professional > > p: 541-485-8122 > > a: 860 Conger St. Suite 12,. Eugene, OR 97402 > > e: vince at solarenergydesign.com > > w: SolarEnergyDesign.com > > CCB# 161672 > > > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please > delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of > this email is strictly prohibited. > > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2025, 11:12 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Any thoughts from me would be not to have large batteries, unless >> detached from the living space. >> >> There is a ship out burning full of electric cars in the Pacific today. >> This is the 4th ship full of battery cars that I know of that has burned. >> >> >> https://gcaptain.com/coast-guard-overflight-footage-reveals-fire-spreading-on-morning-midas-car-carrier-off-alaska-coast/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2025-06-06 6:17 am, Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> For those of you installing batteries inside homes how are you treating >> this poorly-worded section of Code? >> >> *NFPA 855 - 15.4.2:* >> *If the room or space where the ESS is to be installed is not finished or >> non-combustible, the walls and ceilings of the room or space shall be >> protected with not less than 5/8 in. Type X gypsum board.* >> >> This section of fire code has given us much consternation over the years. >> Most installations in this climate are going into unfinished basements. Are >> you all installing 5/8 sheetrock for the entire basement? Just the area >> around the batteries? Something else? >> >> Thanks in advance for any thoughts. >> >> >> -- >> Nicholas Ponzio >> Building Energy >> 1570 South Brownell Road >> >> Williston, VT 05495 >> >> http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com >> "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 34f41ced.png Type: image/png Size: 955854 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Jun 8 16:43:52 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2025 20:43:52 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2020 705.12(E) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the key phrase in 705.12(E) is "for such applications." They are likely referring to grid-interactive inverters that are not configured as hybrid inverters with grid-forming capability. You could install Sol-Arks that are simply grid-tied with no batteries without using breaker hold-downs, but if they use energy storage, that is a different "application." For the load output of multiple Sol-Ark inverters, I do not believe there is any requirement that each one lands on a circuit breaker. You can combine them with a power distribution block or Polaris taps or other means, and land the combined inverter output on a single circuit breaker that is fastened (if required, depending on the application). At least that's my reading of it. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sun, Jun 8, 2025 at 1:55 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Aloha All, > > > When combining the grid and/or load connections of multiple Sol-Arks does > 705.12(E) mean we do not need breaker hold downs on back-fed breakers? The > language is clear but I can't believe it is that easy! > > > Aloha, > Lou Russo  > Spree Solar Systems LLC  > C-34322 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///wAAACwAAAAAAQABAAACAkQBADs=3D] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon Jun 9 09:39:02 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2025 13:39:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS: "The garage entry door must be 1 3/8" solid wood...self-closing and self-latching" Message-ID: Installing a six Enphase 5P battery system in my hometown and got this note back from our plans examiner. Seeking advice on where this requirement might be found so I can review prior to meeting with him. "For An ESS except for listed and labeled 'FOR USE IN HABITABLE SPACES' in accordance with UL 9540 and where installed in accordance with their listing shall: ESS installed in a garage shall: 1. The garage entry door must be 1 3/8" solid wood, solid or honeycomb metal door with a 20 minute fire protection rating. The door must be self-closing and self-latching;..." Items 2-4 were no issues (smoke alarm, parking protection, above 18") I've installed ESS in my town before and the only issue we went back and forth on was the parking bollard / vehicle protection aspect. But this entry door requirement is not something I had seen before. Anybody know where I might find this requirement? Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 [cid:be7084d7-8db2-457d-8fc0-a2f5393be2f1] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-wgr4yjdy.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: Outlook-wgr4yjdy.png URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Mon Jun 9 10:53:00 2025 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2025 16:53:00 +0200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS: "The garage entry door must be 1 3/8" solid wood...self-closing and self-latching" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is 2024 IRC R330.4(4) Locations but I believe it is not written to apply to the garage door, just utility closet, basement, storage space within the dwelling unit. The attached garage requirement (2) sends you to R302.6 which is drywall requirements, not to the door reqs in R302.5.1. So that is a bit confusing, maybe it is locally amended language. [image: Screenshot 2025-06-09 at 4.45.18 PM.png] Licensed Electrical Contractor NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 Tel: 336.266.8800 On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 3:39 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Installing a six Enphase 5P battery system in my hometown and got this > note back from our plans examiner. Seeking advice on where this requirement > might be found so I can review prior to meeting with him. > > "For An ESS except for listed and labeled 'FOR USE IN HABITABLE SPACES' in > accordance with UL 9540 and where installed in accordance with their > listing shall: ESS installed in a garage shall: 1. The garage entry door > must be 1 3/8" solid wood, solid or honeycomb metal door with a 20 minute > fire protection rating. The door must be self-closing and self-latching;..." > > Items 2-4 were no issues (smoke alarm, parking protection, above 18") > > I've installed ESS in my town before and the only issue we went back and > forth on was the parking bollard / vehicle protection aspect. But this > entry door requirement is not something I had seen before. > > Anybody know where I might find this requirement? > > *Howard "Scot" Arey* > *Owner, Solar CenTex* > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > TECL 29755 > 254-300-1228 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-wgr4yjdy.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot 2025-06-09 at 4.45.18 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 302765 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jun 9 11:29:53 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2025 08:29:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire Rating for Battery Room In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In California we are currently working under the I-codes, so we work under the residential (CRC) or fire (CRC) codes. California is in process of adopting NFPA 855 which I believe will go into effect July 1, 2026. The wording in the CRC or CFC is as follows: [image: image.png] You can see it's similar to the 855 language. Clients with unfinished attached garage or utility rooms either have to sheetrock the entire space or can build a utility closet within the unfinished space that meets the requirements. Both are fairly expensive options, depending on how large and cluttered the space is. Anyway, it what it is. As we've become used to dealing with this, we try to focus on the improved safety that sheet rocking provides and just recommend that clients bite the bullet and get it done. It definitely kills some projects. Alternatively, we can mount batteries outside which has drawbacks and may not be feasible in colder climates. If this requirement isn't being upheld in your jurisdiction, it is probably just a matter of time before they catch on. Best, August Luminalt On Fri, Jun 6, 2025 at 6:18 AM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > For those of you installing batteries inside homes how are you treating > this poorly-worded section of Code? > > *NFPA 855 - 15.4.2:* > *If the room or space where the ESS is to be installed is not finished or > non-combustible, the walls and ceilings of the room or space shall be > protected with not less than 5/8 in. Type X gypsum board.* > > This section of fire code has given us much consternation over the years. > Most installations in this climate are going into unfinished basements. Are > you all installing 5/8 sheetrock for the entire basement? Just the area > around the batteries? Something else? > > Thanks in advance for any thoughts. > > > -- > Nicholas Ponzio > Building Energy > 1570 South Brownell Road > Williston, VT 05495 > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > > "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 142331 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon Jun 9 13:24:07 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2025 17:24:07 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS: "The garage entry door must be 1 3/8" solid wood...self-closing and self-latching" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the response. Traced it back two steps to 302.6 which brings you to 302.5. So yes, required by code. 2024 added the section you referred to for utility spaces within dwelling units and it borrowed door language from previous garage openings section 302.5 [cid:432ded9b-43dc-415f-9c94-88cf96764964] [cid:90c5450c-60e9-4219-8888-3812e235fed7] Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Rebekah Hren via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, June 9, 2025 9:53 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Rebekah Hren Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ESS: "The garage entry door must be 1 3/8" solid wood...self-closing and self-latching" It is 2024 IRC R330.4(4) Locations but I believe it is not written to apply to the garage door, just utility closet, basement, storage space within the dwelling unit. The attached garage requirement (2) sends you to R302.6 which is drywall requirements, not to the door reqs in R302.5.1. So that is a bit confusing, maybe it is locally amended language. [Screenshot 2025-06-09 at 4.45.18 PM.png] Licensed Electrical Contractor NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 Tel: 336.266.8800 On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 3:39 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches > wrote: Installing a six Enphase 5P battery system in my hometown and got this note back from our plans examiner. Seeking advice on where this requirement might be found so I can review prior to meeting with him. "For An ESS except for listed and labeled 'FOR USE IN HABITABLE SPACES' in accordance with UL 9540 and where installed in accordance with their listing shall: ESS installed in a garage shall: 1. The garage entry door must be 1 3/8" solid wood, solid or honeycomb metal door with a 20 minute fire protection rating. The door must be self-closing and self-latching;..." Items 2-4 were no issues (smoke alarm, parking protection, above 18") I've installed ESS in my town before and the only issue we went back and forth on was the parking bollard / vehicle protection aspect. But this entry door requirement is not something I had seen before. Anybody know where I might find this requirement? Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 [cid:ii_1975527837ac10b6d731] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-wgr4yjdy.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: Outlook-wgr4yjdy.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot 2025-06-09 at 4.45.18 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 302765 bytes Desc: Screenshot 2025-06-09 at 4.45.18 PM.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 42135 bytes Desc: image.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 76159 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jun 9 15:07:53 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2025 15:07:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire Rating for Battery Room In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Many of the "garages" we deal with are below the living space of stilt homes, where there is no way people are going to install drywall in flood-prone areas, even if the electrical equipment is above the required flood elevation. Concrete board isn't a much better option. These rules are creating havoc all over the place and leading me to lean toward batteries on exterior walls, which has definite downsides around here (including potential safety downsides). Some of these rules don't live in the land of reality. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 11:30 AM August Goers via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > In California we are currently working under the I-codes, so we work under > the residential (CRC) or fire (CRC) codes. California is in process of > adopting NFPA 855 which I believe will go into effect July 1, 2026. The > wording in the CRC or CFC is as follows: > > [image: image.png] > > You can see it's similar to the 855 language. Clients with unfinished > attached garage or utility rooms either have to sheetrock the entire space > or can build a utility closet within the unfinished space that meets the > requirements. Both are fairly expensive options, depending on how large and > cluttered the space is. Anyway, it what it is. As we've become used to > dealing with this, we try to focus on the improved safety that sheet > rocking provides and just recommend that clients bite the bullet and get it > done. It definitely kills some projects. Alternatively, we can mount > batteries outside which has drawbacks and may not be feasible in colder > climates. > > If this requirement isn't being upheld in your jurisdiction, it is > probably just a matter of time before they catch on. > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > > > > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2025 at 6:18 AM Nicholas Ponzio via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> For those of you installing batteries inside homes how are you treating >> this poorly-worded section of Code? >> >> *NFPA 855 - 15.4.2:* >> *If the room or space where the ESS is to be installed is not finished or >> non-combustible, the walls and ceilings of the room or space shall be >> protected with not less than 5/8 in. Type X gypsum board.* >> >> This section of fire code has given us much consternation over the years. >> Most installations in this climate are going into unfinished basements. Are >> you all installing 5/8 sheetrock for the entire basement? Just the area >> around the batteries? Something else? >> >> Thanks in advance for any thoughts. >> >> >> -- >> Nicholas Ponzio >> Building Energy >> 1570 South Brownell Road >> Williston, VT 05495 >> http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com >> >> "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 142331 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 10 19:06:59 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 19:06:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Tech Support - Getting Nowhere Message-ID: I’m once again dealing with a painful support experience from Sol-Ark that’s confirming the broader concerns we’ve all been talking about. Today a customer's system went completely down due to an AC coupling issue that seems to have been triggered by a factory reset I was instructed to perform on a previous visit. On that previous visit, the master inverter would not connect to MySolArk, regardless of what dongle is used on it, so remote monitoring is dead. Despite promises of escalation to Level 3 support last week, no one has followed up. I’m still in the dark, and the master inverter remains offline. Calling Sol-Ark today was pretty useless, as they were having phone problems. The level 1 tech I finally reached was no help whatsoever. They told me the level 2 tech I was previously talking to would call me. That never happened. Sound familiar? No follow-through as usual. I "resolved" the AC Coupling issue myself by turning it off, but we need that solar production! I have tried to resolve this MySolArk connection issue on multiple trips to the site. Any dongle I use in the master inverter connects to MySolArk (Connection Status OK), and they can see the dongle on their end. But they can't see the inverter. Replaced the WiFi /RS232 board already under RMA. That was useless. That was after having to convince the completely illogical Level 1 support tech that the dongle was not the issue. To make matters worse, I have a slave inverter that needs replacement, but I’m reluctant to proceed while the master is still offline. Sol-Ark’s RMA process is a mess—slow responses, redundant requests, and a $3,000 deposit with no real accountability or urgency on their part. Phone calls drop, emails go unanswered, and when I do get someone, they’re clearly not up to speed on the case. This isn’t a one-off experience anymore—this is a pattern. If you’re considering using Sol-Ark on any upcoming projects, proceed with extreme caution. Their hardware might still check boxes on paper, but the support is downright awful. The return visits to this remote site have easily cost me more than a new inverter. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 19:25:48 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 16:25:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any contacts at Sol-Ark Message-ID: Hello All, Does anyone have any contacts at Sol-Ark? I have a system that went off-line over a year ago, soon after they changed from PVPRO to MySol-Ark. I've been to the site more times than I can count. At first, they gaslit me and said the problem was my customer's router. I brought in an IT specialist who proved it wasn't. So they said that the dongle got bricked from the change to MySol-Ark, and sent a new dongle, which I swear took a month or two. Dongle didn't solve the issue and they tried blaming the router. So we paid for the IT guy to come out. Again. Next dongle didn't solve the issue. So they sent a new WiFi card. Still won't connect to the internet. But now the Inverter sees the customers WiFi signal which it didn't previously, causing us to run ethernet from the house to the utility building. Phones and computers connected to WiFi out there. But Sol-Ark said no it wasn't their fault. A typical site visit goes like this: Get to site and replace X part. No effect. Call Sol-Ark. Explain in excruciating detail the minutia of all the system intricacies to some low-level. Get bullshit response. Ask to speak to someone who can help. Told that someone will call me back (I explain that I'm out in the field). And only once did someone actually call me back. Like a week later. Many instances like this. I'm trying to arrange to have tech support available at a time when I can bring out our IT guy. I left a message this morning and I have sent Jharen two emails. No response. I could really use some help if someone knows anyone at the company that could see this through. This is only my third Sol-Ark install. The first used 8 12ks and we were unable to commission it due to poor tech support. It was only after reaching out to the founder/CEO that we got someone competent that we realized we had mislabeled 8Ks in the mix. The second install is this one. Currently doing a 60K and then I'm done with them. -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 19:39:39 2025 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 19:39:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any contacts at Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm an asking SolArk to put a tech support person on this list. Hang tight, they will likely reach out to Michael Welch tonight. Daryl On Tue, Jun 10, 2025, 7:26 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello All, > Does anyone have any contacts at Sol-Ark? I have a system that went > off-line over a year ago, soon after they changed from PVPRO to MySol-Ark. > I've been to the site more times than I can count. At first, they gaslit me > and said the problem was my customer's router. I brought in an IT > specialist who proved it wasn't. So they said that the dongle got bricked > from the change to MySol-Ark, and sent a new dongle, which I swear took a > month or two. Dongle didn't solve the issue and they tried blaming > the router. So we paid for the IT guy to come out. Again. Next dongle > didn't solve the issue. So they sent a new WiFi card. Still won't connect > to the internet. But now the Inverter sees the customers WiFi signal which > it didn't previously, causing us to run ethernet from the house to the > utility building. Phones and computers connected to WiFi out there. But > Sol-Ark said no it wasn't their fault. A typical site visit goes like this: > Get to site and replace X part. No effect. Call Sol-Ark. Explain in > excruciating detail the minutia of all the system intricacies to some > low-level. Get bullshit response. Ask to speak to someone who can help. > Told that someone will call me back (I explain that I'm out in the field). > And only once did someone actually call me back. Like a week later. Many > instances like this. > > I'm trying to arrange to have tech support available at a time when I can > bring out our IT guy. I left a message this morning and I have sent Jharen > two emails. No response. I could really use some help if someone knows > anyone at the company that could see this through. > > This is only my third Sol-Ark install. The first used 8 12ks and we were > unable to commission it due to poor tech support. It was only after > reaching out to the founder/CEO that we got someone competent that we > realized we had mislabeled 8Ks in the mix. The second install is this one. > Currently doing a 60K and then I'm done with them. > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Tue Jun 10 20:01:43 2025 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 17:01:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum coming back? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1975c4aea9e.fcea1fd155975.2329616984603629272@greenwired.com> I was able to reach their new West Coast Sales Manager, and here’s the update I got from them: “We are in the process of getting our manufacturing facility in Oakdale, Minnesota, up and running. We expect the PAE line to be producing product by the end of Q3 this year.” That missing void was quite prominent. We tried to fill it with sol-ark but there was such a price difference and no 24v.  Andrew Perkins Greenwired Purchasing Manger | Technical sales P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 M: 707-932-5595 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd P.O. Box 1686 Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com ---- On Wed, 04 Jun 2025 18:18:27 -0700 Dan Fink via RE-wrenches wrote --- Just saw this on my Linked In. I really liked Magnum products and tech support before their quality, and I have many in the field. I was becoming concerned that if an inverter failed, all the associated networked products like the battery SOC monitor, web interface and AGS would be useless. Let's hope DMX can do a better job than Outback did... DMX Power Acquires Magnum Energy, Dimensions, and CSW Product Lines from Sensata Technologies; Manufacturing Returns to the U.S. April 2025 – DMX Power LLC is proud to announce the successful acquisition of the Magnum Energy, Dimensions, and CSW product lines from Sensata Technologies. This strategic move marks a significant milestone as DMX Power brings manufacturing for the Magnum Energy and Dimensions brands back to the United States, with operations set to resume in Minnesota. The decision underscores the company's commitment to enhancing quality control, improving lead times, and delivering best-in-class service. Founded by former employees with deep expertise in these legacy brands, DMX Power has spent the past several months working to restore ownership and rebuild the operational foundation. Many skilled team members who were instrumental in the original success of Magnum and Dimensions have rejoined the company, reinforcing DMX Power’s mission to put customers first. Our goal is to restore the standards of quality, responsiveness, and service that our customers deserve. While most product specifications will remain unchanged, DMX Power plans to release updated product details and 2025 pricing in April. Customers are encouraged to contact their sales representatives or email  mailto:support at dmx-power.com?subject=DMX%20Power%20Aquires%20New%20Product%20Lines  for technical inquiries and  mailto:sales at dmx-power.com?subject=DMX%20Power%20Aquires%20New%20Product%20Lines  for commercial requests, including orders, partnerships, or connecting with our sales team. Initial manufacturing of select Magnum and Dimensions products will begin in May, with shipments anticipated in June. Select CSW products, along with remaining inventory acquired from Sensata, will be available as early as April. Further updates on product availability and launch timelines will be provided in the coming weeks. For more information, customers can contact DMX Power directly. DMX Power thanks its partners and customers for their continued support during this exciting new chapter. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate mailto:dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com mailto:anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: GreenWired_-_Badge_Logo_-_Color_1.png Type: image/png Size: 111621 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 20:29:31 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 18:29:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any contacts at Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <629829A5-3FF0-4CE6-A7FF-D23426138942@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Tue Jun 10 20:47:46 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2025 00:47:46 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any contacts at Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <629829A5-3FF0-4CE6-A7FF-D23426138942@gmail.com> References: <629829A5-3FF0-4CE6-A7FF-D23426138942@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not discounting another person's experience but I will say my own experience with Sol-Ark hardware and tech support has been awesome. Lots of single and paralleled inverters. Each has worked as advertised. When I had questions, the tech support was somebody who was knowledgeable in the product. If I had to sell just one inverter today, it would be Sol-Ark...wish they'd hurry up with their RSD solution, but really pleased with company and people. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2025 7:29 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Any contacts at Sol-Ark I have to say listening to all the issues with lack of tech support and real issues and paying for warranty etc. I have no desire to buy or sell sol ark Jay On Jun 10, 2025, at 5:40 PM, Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches wrote:  I'm an asking SolArk to put a tech support person on this list. Hang tight, they will likely reach out to Michael Welch tonight. Daryl On Tue, Jun 10, 2025, 7:26 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hello All, Does anyone have any contacts at Sol-Ark? I have a system that went off-line over a year ago, soon after they changed from PVPRO to MySol-Ark. I've been to the site more times than I can count. At first, they gaslit me and said the problem was my customer's router. I brought in an IT specialist who proved it wasn't. So they said that the dongle got bricked from the change to MySol-Ark, and sent a new dongle, which I swear took a month or two. Dongle didn't solve the issue and they tried blaming the router. So we paid for the IT guy to come out. Again. Next dongle didn't solve the issue. So they sent a new WiFi card. Still won't connect to the internet. But now the Inverter sees the customers WiFi signal which it didn't previously, causing us to run ethernet from the house to the utility building. Phones and computers connected to WiFi out there. But Sol-Ark said no it wasn't their fault. A typical site visit goes like this: Get to site and replace X part. No effect. Call Sol-Ark. Explain in excruciating detail the minutia of all the system intricacies to some low-level. Get bullshit response. Ask to speak to someone who can help. Told that someone will call me back (I explain that I'm out in the field). And only once did someone actually call me back. Like a week later. Many instances like this. I'm trying to arrange to have tech support available at a time when I can bring out our IT guy. I left a message this morning and I have sent Jharen two emails. No response. I could really use some help if someone knows anyone at the company that could see this through. This is only my third Sol-Ark install. The first used 8 12ks and we were unable to commission it due to poor tech support. It was only after reaching out to the founder/CEO that we got someone competent that we realized we had mislabeled 8Ks in the mix. The second install is this one. Currently doing a 60K and then I'm done with them. -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 20:53:56 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 20:53:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any contacts at Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <629829A5-3FF0-4CE6-A7FF-D23426138942@gmail.com> References: <629829A5-3FF0-4CE6-A7FF-D23426138942@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have maybe 10 Sol-Ark sites but haven't installed one in over a year, mostly because I have switched over to Midnite's AIO. In general, my Sol-Ark installs went relatively smoothly other than a couple of years ago when a Sol-Ark/Fortress eVault Max off-grid site started to behave erratically - Inverter shutting off or restarting, batteries turning off when reading more than 85% SOC. Turned out, after 3 weeks of heartache and almost daily site visits and too many calls to remember to both tech supports (claiming that the behaviors could not have anything to do with their product) Fortress revealed that Sol-Ark had done a firmware update which they were not informed of and that update caused erratic comms which sent each side into a random apoplectic tizzy. Since then, my tech support from Sol-Ark has been both very good and poor, depending on who I got through to. This is a long winded way of saying that like all manufacturers, Sol-Ark support in my experience has gone through ups and downs as well as for 6 or 8 months when I would have to wait for inordinate amounts of time to get through to someone competent. Hopefully, they can get back to the level of service I experienced earlier on. Howie Michaelson On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 8:31 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have to say listening to all the issues with lack of tech support and > real issues and paying for warranty etc. > > I have no desire to buy or sell sol ark > > Jay > > On Jun 10, 2025, at 5:40 PM, Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I'm an asking SolArk to put a tech support person on this list. Hang > tight, they will likely reach out to Michael Welch tonight. > > Daryl > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2025, 7:26 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello All, >> Does anyone have any contacts at Sol-Ark? I have a system that went >> off-line over a year ago, soon after they changed from PVPRO to MySol-Ark. >> I've been to the site more times than I can count. At first, they gaslit me >> and said the problem was my customer's router. I brought in an IT >> specialist who proved it wasn't. So they said that the dongle got bricked >> from the change to MySol-Ark, and sent a new dongle, which I swear took a >> month or two. Dongle didn't solve the issue and they tried blaming >> the router. So we paid for the IT guy to come out. Again. Next dongle >> didn't solve the issue. So they sent a new WiFi card. Still won't connect >> to the internet. But now the Inverter sees the customers WiFi signal which >> it didn't previously, causing us to run ethernet from the house to the >> utility building. Phones and computers connected to WiFi out there. But >> Sol-Ark said no it wasn't their fault. A typical site visit goes like this: >> Get to site and replace X part. No effect. Call Sol-Ark. Explain in >> excruciating detail the minutia of all the system intricacies to some >> low-level. Get bullshit response. Ask to speak to someone who can help. >> Told that someone will call me back (I explain that I'm out in the field). >> And only once did someone actually call me back. Like a week later. Many >> instances like this. >> >> I'm trying to arrange to have tech support available at a time when I can >> bring out our IT guy. I left a message this morning and I have sent Jharen >> two emails. No response. I could really use some help if someone knows >> anyone at the company that could see this through. >> >> This is only my third Sol-Ark install. The first used 8 12ks and we were >> unable to commission it due to poor tech support. It was only after >> reaching out to the founder/CEO that we got someone competent that we >> realized we had mislabeled 8Ks in the mix. The second install is this one. >> Currently doing a 60K and then I'm done with them. >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> Morningstar Electric Inc >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> CSLB 1116835 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jun 10 20:45:54 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 17:45:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any contacts at Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <629829A5-3FF0-4CE6-A7FF-D23426138942@gmail.com> References: <629829A5-3FF0-4CE6-A7FF-D23426138942@gmail.com> Message-ID: <63271b112319a8dfa41d7e2aa509844b@mail.gmail.com> Friends: It’s amazing how different people’s experiences can be: I installed a Soul-Arc 12 in my shop a week or two ago. I was having trouble connecting to my Wi-fi and programming for battery only. I was told there was a bad batch of dongles shipped but the problem could be fixed remotely. It took a couple of calls but within an hour every issue was resolved. I even got two call backs originating from tech support. My wait time on the phone was always less than 3 minutes. I had to pinch myself to make sure I wasn’t dreaming. Maybe my problems were just simple enough that low-level techs could take care of them and harder problems would have taken way longer. I am mystified. I now have 3 Deka Duration 5.3 batteries installed and I am no longer buying energy at $0.62/kwh from 4P to 9P. The programming capabilities of the Soul Arc are very powerful. The Duration batteries were plug-and-play for closed loop with the optional cable. I recommend the Soul Arc with the Duration batteries and will be offering them to clients. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jay via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, June 10, 2025 5:30 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jay *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Any contacts at Sol-Ark I have to say listening to all the issues with lack of tech support and real issues and paying for warranty etc. I have no desire to buy or sell sol ark Jay On Jun 10, 2025, at 5:40 PM, Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  I'm an asking SolArk to put a tech support person on this list. Hang tight, they will likely reach out to Michael Welch tonight. Daryl On Tue, Jun 10, 2025, 7:26 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Hello All, Does anyone have any contacts at Sol-Ark? I have a system that went off-line over a year ago, soon after they changed from PVPRO to MySol-Ark. I've been to the site more times than I can count. At first, they gaslit me and said the problem was my customer's router. I brought in an IT specialist who proved it wasn't. So they said that the dongle got bricked from the change to MySol-Ark, and sent a new dongle, which I swear took a month or two. Dongle didn't solve the issue and they tried blaming the router. So we paid for the IT guy to come out. Again. Next dongle didn't solve the issue. So they sent a new WiFi card. Still won't connect to the internet. But now the Inverter sees the customers WiFi signal which it didn't previously, causing us to run ethernet from the house to the utility building. Phones and computers connected to WiFi out there. But Sol-Ark said no it wasn't their fault. A typical site visit goes like this: Get to site and replace X part. No effect. Call Sol-Ark. Explain in excruciating detail the minutia of all the system intricacies to some low-level. Get bullshit response. Ask to speak to someone who can help. Told that someone will call me back (I explain that I'm out in the field). And only once did someone actually call me back. Like a week later. Many instances like this. I'm trying to arrange to have tech support available at a time when I can bring out our IT guy. I left a message this morning and I have sent Jharen two emails. No response. I could really use some help if someone knows anyone at the company that could see this through. This is only my third Sol-Ark install. The first used 8 12ks and we were unable to commission it due to poor tech support. It was only after reaching out to the founder/CEO that we got someone competent that we realized we had mislabeled 8Ks in the mix. The second install is this one. Currently doing a 60K and then I'm done with them. -- Michael Morningstar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 21:14:25 2025 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 21:14:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any contacts at Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <63271b112319a8dfa41d7e2aa509844b@mail.gmail.com> References: <629829A5-3FF0-4CE6-A7FF-D23426138942@gmail.com> <63271b112319a8dfa41d7e2aa509844b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: We are now only installing SolArk. While we have had an issue here and there, with 86 of their inverters installed, including multiple 60k and 30k, 480v and 208v commercial installs, it is a business decision I'm not regretting. I have found tech support with every manufacturer has their low times with seemingly poor support. Usually it is because of hiring issues, which I have to say I'm intimately aware of. In most cases this tends to be resolved over a matter of months and with some patience. SolArk, to me, is a company whose primary issue is growing pains and I do think they will resolve the current backup in good technical support sooner rather than later. Daryl DeJoy On Tue, Jun 10, 2025, 9:07 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > It’s amazing how different people’s experiences can be: I installed a > Soul-Arc 12 in my shop a week or two ago. I was having trouble connecting > to my Wi-fi and programming for battery only. > > > > I was told there was a bad batch of dongles shipped but the problem could > be fixed remotely. It took a couple of calls but within an hour every > issue was resolved. I even got two call backs originating from tech > support. > > > > My wait time on the phone was always less than 3 minutes. I had to pinch > myself to make sure I wasn’t dreaming. > > > > Maybe my problems were just simple enough that low-level techs could take > care of them and harder problems would have taken way longer. I am > mystified. > > > > I now have 3 Deka Duration 5.3 batteries installed and I am no longer > buying energy at $0.62/kwh from 4P to 9P. The programming capabilities of > the Soul Arc are very powerful. The Duration batteries were plug-and-play > for closed loop with the optional cable. I recommend the Soul Arc with the > Duration batteries and will be offering them to clients. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jay via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 10, 2025 5:30 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jay > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Any contacts at Sol-Ark > > > > I have to say listening to all the issues with lack of tech support and > real issues and paying for warranty etc. > > > > I have no desire to buy or sell sol ark > > > > Jay > > > > On Jun 10, 2025, at 5:40 PM, Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > I'm an asking SolArk to put a tech support person on this list. Hang > tight, they will likely reach out to Michael Welch tonight. > > > > Daryl > > > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2025, 7:26 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hello All, > > Does anyone have any contacts at Sol-Ark? I have a system that went > off-line over a year ago, soon after they changed from PVPRO to MySol-Ark. > I've been to the site more times than I can count. At first, they gaslit me > and said the problem was my customer's router. I brought in an IT > specialist who proved it wasn't. So they said that the dongle got bricked > from the change to MySol-Ark, and sent a new dongle, which I swear took a > month or two. Dongle didn't solve the issue and they tried blaming > the router. So we paid for the IT guy to come out. Again. Next dongle > didn't solve the issue. So they sent a new WiFi card. Still won't connect > to the internet. But now the Inverter sees the customers WiFi signal which > it didn't previously, causing us to run ethernet from the house to the > utility building. Phones and computers connected to WiFi out there. But > Sol-Ark said no it wasn't their fault. A typical site visit goes like this: > Get to site and replace X part. No effect. Call Sol-Ark. Explain in > excruciating detail the minutia of all the system intricacies to some > low-level. Get bullshit response. Ask to speak to someone who can help. > Told that someone will call me back (I explain that I'm out in the field). > And only once did someone actually call me back. Like a week later. Many > instances like this. > > > > I'm trying to arrange to have tech support available at a time when I can > bring out our IT guy. I left a message this morning and I have sent Jharen > two emails. No response. I could really use some help if someone knows > anyone at the company that could see this through. > > > > This is only my third Sol-Ark install. The first used 8 12ks and we were > unable to commission it due to poor tech support. It was only after > reaching out to the founder/CEO that we got someone competent that we > realized we had mislabeled 8Ks in the mix. The second install is this one. > Currently doing a 60K and then I'm done with them. > > > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 21:46:16 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 18:46:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any contacts at Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 23:08:20 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 20:08:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum coming back? In-Reply-To: <1975c4aea9e.fcea1fd155975.2329616984603629272@greenwired.com> References: <1975c4aea9e.fcea1fd155975.2329616984603629272@greenwired.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure why no one seems to be using the Samlex EVO inverters. At AEE when Magnum disappeared, we carried the EVO inverters as a replacement, but no one seemed to want to use them. As far as we could tell they were every bit as good as the Magnum and maybe better in some ways. I knew one of the people who tested them to death, and by the time they hit the market seemed to be nearly bullet proof. I see that they are still available. I think Midnite came up with an e-panel for it, though not near as nice as the Magnum panels. Has anyone here tried them? Brad Bassett On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 5:03 PM Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I was able to reach their new West Coast Sales Manager, and here’s the > update I got from them: “We are in the process of getting our manufacturing > facility in Oakdale, Minnesota, up and running. We expect the PAE line to > be producing product by the end of Q3 this year.” > > That missing void was quite prominent. We tried to fill it with sol-ark > but there was such a price difference and no 24v. > > Andrew Perkins > Greenwired > Purchasing Manger | Technical sales > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > M: 707-932-5595 > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > P.O. Box 1686 > Redway, CA 95560 > www.greenwired.com > [image: GreenWired - Badge Logo - Color 1.png] > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- On Wed, 04 Jun 2025 18:18:27 -0700 *Dan Fink via RE-wrenches > >* > wrote --- > > Just saw this on my Linked In. I really liked Magnum products and tech > support before their quality, and I have many in the field. I was becoming > concerned that if an inverter failed, all the associated networked products > like the battery SOC monitor, web interface and AGS would be useless. Let's > hope DMX can do a better job than Outback did... > > DMX Power Acquires Magnum Energy, Dimensions, and CSW Product Lines from > Sensata Technologies; Manufacturing Returns to the U.S. > > *April 2025* – DMX Power LLC is proud to announce the successful > acquisition of the Magnum Energy, Dimensions, and CSW product lines from > Sensata Technologies. This strategic move marks a significant milestone as > DMX Power brings manufacturing for the Magnum Energy and Dimensions brands > back to the United States, with operations set to resume in Minnesota. The > decision underscores the company's commitment to enhancing quality control, > improving lead times, and delivering best-in-class service. > > Founded by former employees with deep expertise in these legacy brands, > DMX Power has spent the past several months working to restore ownership > and rebuild the operational foundation. Many skilled team members who were > instrumental in the original success of Magnum and Dimensions have rejoined > the company, reinforcing DMX Power’s mission to put customers first. > > Our goal is to restore the standards of quality, responsiveness, and > service that our customers deserve. > > While most product specifications will remain unchanged, DMX Power plans > to release updated product details and 2025 pricing in April. Customers are > encouraged to contact their sales representatives or email > support at dmx-power.com > for > technical inquiries and sales at dmx-power.com > for > commercial requests, including orders, partnerships, or connecting with our > sales team. > > Initial manufacturing of select Magnum and Dimensions products will begin > in May, with shipments anticipated in June. Select CSW products, along with > remaining inventory acquired from Sensata, will be available as early as > April. > > Further updates on product availability and launch timelines will be > provided in the coming weeks. For more information, customers can contact > DMX Power directly. > > DMX Power thanks its partners and customers for their continued support > during this exciting new chapter. > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: GreenWired_-_Badge_Logo_-_Color_1.png Type: image/png Size: 111621 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 23:20:59 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 20:20:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration batteries Message-ID: I've just heard that WM is using the Deka Duration batteries. At AEE we had a very good relationship with MK Battery and I brought in the Deka Duration to sell without really looking at all the potential issues first. However, I did become aware of them after looking at how to install them in detail. I'm curious how anyone does this with multiple batteries. I came up with lots of configurations trying to get around the extreme lack of wiring room in stacked batteries. I ended up doing drawings showing them stacked on their rear end on the floor 3 deep from the wall with a battery combiner on top of each 3 stack. Contact with tech support was always referred to the Italian company and every time I received a very condescending and arrogant response. Then I finally read the warranty in detail, unfortunately after selling some, and having to buy them back. Turns out that at that time (still?) the warranty excluded in entirety any system installed with an inverter that did not have closed loop comms with the battery. Also the temperature range to stay under warranty was basically room temperature only. After discovering all of these issues I decided that we would no longer carry them. I will say that I had no problem getting one to communicate with my XW+ inverter through the gateway CAN bus. The one that I ended up with has certainly worked fine, but of course is not under any warranty, and never has been since put into operation with an open communication inverter in a utility shed that gets down to 40°F. Brad Bassett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Jun 10 23:44:22 2025 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2025 03:44:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum coming back? In-Reply-To: References: <1975c4aea9e.fcea1fd155975.2329616984603629272@greenwired.com> Message-ID: We installed two of the Samlex Evo units when we were not able to get Magnum inverters for a while. They were fairly easy to program and I recall we did use an E panel too. We’ve have no issues with those units. Tech support was pretty good as well. Now we are trying the MNS 7048 Rosies since Magnum and Outback were gone. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jun 10, 2025, at 9:06 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote:  I'm not sure why no one seems to be using the Samlex EVO inverters. At AEE when Magnum disappeared, we carried the EVO inverters as a replacement, but no one seemed to want to use them. As far as we could tell they were every bit as good as the Magnum and maybe better in some ways. I knew one of the people who tested them to death, and by the time they hit the market seemed to be nearly bullet proof. I see that they are still available. I think Midnite came up with an e-panel for it, though not near as nice as the Magnum panels. Has anyone here tried them? Brad Bassett On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 5:03 PM Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches > wrote: I was able to reach their new West Coast Sales Manager, and here’s the update I got from them: “We are in the process of getting our manufacturing facility in Oakdale, Minnesota, up and running. We expect the PAE line to be producing product by the end of Q3 this year.” That missing void was quite prominent. We tried to fill it with sol-ark but there was such a price difference and no 24v. Andrew Perkins Greenwired Purchasing Manger | Technical sales P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 M: 707-932-5595 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd P.O. Box 1686 Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com ---- On Wed, 04 Jun 2025 18:18:27 -0700 Dan Fink via RE-wrenches > wrote --- Just saw this on my Linked In. I really liked Magnum products and tech support before their quality, and I have many in the field. I was becoming concerned that if an inverter failed, all the associated networked products like the battery SOC monitor, web interface and AGS would be useless. Let's hope DMX can do a better job than Outback did... DMX Power Acquires Magnum Energy, Dimensions, and CSW Product Lines from Sensata Technologies; Manufacturing Returns to the U.S. April 2025 – DMX Power LLC is proud to announce the successful acquisition of the Magnum Energy, Dimensions, and CSW product lines from Sensata Technologies. This strategic move marks a significant milestone as DMX Power brings manufacturing for the Magnum Energy and Dimensions brands back to the United States, with operations set to resume in Minnesota. The decision underscores the company's commitment to enhancing quality control, improving lead times, and delivering best-in-class service. Founded by former employees with deep expertise in these legacy brands, DMX Power has spent the past several months working to restore ownership and rebuild the operational foundation. Many skilled team members who were instrumental in the original success of Magnum and Dimensions have rejoined the company, reinforcing DMX Power’s mission to put customers first. Our goal is to restore the standards of quality, responsiveness, and service that our customers deserve. While most product specifications will remain unchanged, DMX Power plans to release updated product details and 2025 pricing in April. Customers are encouraged to contact their sales representatives or email support at dmx-power.com for technical inquiries and sales at dmx-power.com for commercial requests, including orders, partnerships, or connecting with our sales team. Initial manufacturing of select Magnum and Dimensions products will begin in May, with shipments anticipated in June. Select CSW products, along with remaining inventory acquired from Sensata, will be available as early as April. Further updates on product availability and launch timelines will be provided in the coming weeks. For more information, customers can contact DMX Power directly. DMX Power thanks its partners and customers for their continued support during this exciting new chapter. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate danbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: GreenWired_-_Badge_Logo_-_Color_1.png Type: image/png Size: 111621 bytes Desc: GreenWired_-_Badge_Logo_-_Color_1.png URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Jun 11 02:39:05 2025 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 23:39:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum coming back? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7D3A2ECF-74CF-4812-B43C-46F8EFB8EAF3@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 11 06:49:50 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2025 06:49:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Assistant With HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I received a response from Solar Assistant. SA does not interface with HomeGrid. That is disappointing. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 7:38 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Has anyone connected HomeGrid Stack'd batteries to Solar Assistant? There > doesn't seem to be much information on whether they are compatible or what > cord to use. And if it is possible, what monitoring capabilities exist, and > do you need to connect to each stack, or does the master BMS handle all > batteries in all stacks? > > Or is it even necessary to connect them if they are connected to Sol-Arks > that are on the Solar Assistant? > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 11 06:53:59 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2025 06:53:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Server Rack Batteries With Solar Assistant Message-ID: Has anyone successfully connected EG4 LifePower4 batteries to Solar Assistant via the EG4 Communications Hub? I have more than 16 batteries at a site where I would like to get SA data. There is already a Communication Hub there that works to see all 24 batteries. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jun 11 08:56:52 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2025 06:56:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Server Rack Batteries With Solar Assistant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9AB27174-DDE0-4C45-8C34-D98A06017EE5@gmail.com> According to their website it does support eg4 inverters and batteries. > On Jun 11, 2025, at 4:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Has anyone successfully connected EG4 LifePower4 batteries to Solar Assistant via the EG4 Communications Hub? I have more than 16 batteries at a site where I would like to get SA data. There is already a Communication Hub there that works to see all 24 batteries. > > Jason Szumlanski > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 11 12:46:51 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2025 12:46:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Server Rack Batteries With Solar Assistant In-Reply-To: <9AB27174-DDE0-4C45-8C34-D98A06017EE5@gmail.com> References: <9AB27174-DDE0-4C45-8C34-D98A06017EE5@gmail.com> Message-ID: SA definitely supports their batteries via RS-485, but there isn't any information on whether this will work using the communication hub. This system has 24 batteries with two networked groups of 12 batteries (16 is the max each group). Each group plugs into the hub for unified reporting. There are additional ports available on the hub, so I'm guessing I can get this to work, but which port and what type of cable is the real question. This battery system is not connected in a closed loop with the inverters, so I have the inverter CAN1 port available as well as the BAT CAN2 and the INV RS485-3 port. I'm thinking that last one is my best bet, but I don't know what pinout the USB to RS485 would use. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 8:57 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > According to their website it does support eg4 inverters and batteries. > > On Jun 11, 2025, at 4:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Has anyone successfully connected EG4 LifePower4 batteries to Solar > Assistant via the EG4 Communications Hub? I have more than 16 batteries at > a site where I would like to get SA data. There is already a Communication > Hub there that works to see all 24 batteries. > > Jason Szumlanski > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Jun 11 15:46:17 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2025 19:46:17 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We installed a couple dozen of these batteries in 2024, closed-loop with Schneider XW or CSW. Tech support was really good through East Penn. We stopped selling mainly because they are way too high priced compared to other options, as well the BOS options are very lacking. You can buy the expensive buss bars but they expect you to just sit the batteries on top of each other? Or standing up on their end. No racking provisions, cabling not really thought though fully. Cover plates won’t fit if using 4/0 wire. Thanks for sharing about the warranty detail. Fingers crossed. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches Sent: June-10-25 8:21 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Bradley Bassett Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration batteries I've just heard that WM is using the Deka Duration batteries. At AEE we had a very good relationship with MK Battery and I brought in the Deka Duration to sell without really looking at all the potential issues first. However, I did become aware of them after looking at how to install them in detail. I'm curious how anyone does this with multiple batteries. I came up with lots of configurations trying to get around the extreme lack of wiring room in stacked batteries. I ended up doing drawings showing them stacked on their rear end on the floor 3 deep from the wall with a battery combiner on top of each 3 stack. Contact with tech support was always referred to the Italian company and every time I received a very condescending and arrogant response. Then I finally read the warranty in detail, unfortunately after selling some, and having to buy them back. Turns out that at that time (still?) the warranty excluded in entirety any system installed with an inverter that did not have closed loop comms with the battery. Also the temperature range to stay under warranty was basically room temperature only. After discovering all of these issues I decided that we would no longer carry them. I will say that I had no problem getting one to communicate with my XW+ inverter through the gateway CAN bus. The one that I ended up with has certainly worked fine, but of course is not under any warranty, and never has been since put into operation with an open communication inverter in a utility shed that gets down to 40°F. Brad Bassett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump3391 at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 07:28:19 2025 From: tump3391 at gmail.com (Blair May) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2025 07:28:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68858384-A20D-4534-80E0-8C80AFF6F891@gmail.com> I am in the middle of a major install using their Duration PL. I have been a long time fan of the MK series & I have always felt that my tech support Doug Laningham and their engineers has been very good. dlaningham at mkbattery.com. They have recently brought on Bill Huss from Battle Born who is very knowledgeable and actually has some experience in solar installations. His knowledge and his excitement over this product makes him quite a valuable asset to those of us who are trying to integrate this product in our installs. bhuss at mkbattery.com Both of these folks are suburb and very committed to a quality install. Yes they are somewhat lacking w/ their inverter compatibility options but I believe thats more on the manufactures side. I would suggest that you discuss your questions w/ these 2 but I have seen nothing but their openness to feed back and willingness to work thru their design constraints. Look to Midnite, their LBCB 250. enables one using the battery cables supplied by MK to feed into their combiner box, 10 space w/ a 250A disco enclosed. > On Jun 11, 2025, at 3:46 PM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We installed a couple dozen of these batteries in 2024, closed-loop with Schneider XW or CSW. Tech support was really good through East Penn. We stopped selling mainly because they are way too high priced compared to other options, as well the BOS options are very lacking. You can buy the expensive buss bars but they expect you to just sit the batteries on top of each other? Or standing up on their end. No racking provisions, cabling not really thought though fully. Cover plates won’t fit if using 4/0 wire. > > Thanks for sharing about the warranty detail. Fingers crossed. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches > Sent: June-10-25 8:21 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Cc: Bradley Bassett > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration batteries > > I've just heard that WM is using the Deka Duration batteries. At AEE we had a very good relationship with MK Battery and I brought in the Deka Duration to sell without really looking at all the potential issues first. However, I did become aware of them after looking at how to install them in detail. I'm curious how anyone does this with multiple batteries. I came up with lots of configurations trying to get around the extreme lack of wiring room in stacked batteries. I ended up doing drawings showing them stacked on their rear end on the floor 3 deep from the wall with a battery combiner on top of each 3 stack. Contact with tech support was always referred to the Italian company and every time I received a very condescending and arrogant response. Then I finally read the warranty in detail, unfortunately after selling some, and having to buy them back. Turns out that at that time (still?) the warranty excluded in entirety any system installed with an inverter that did not have closed loop comms with the battery. Also the temperature range to stay under warranty was basically room temperature only. After discovering all of these issues I decided that we would no longer carry them. I will say that I had no problem getting one to communicate with my XW+ inverter through the gateway CAN bus. The one that I ended up with has certainly worked fine, but of course is not under any warranty, and never has been since put into operation with an open communication inverter in a utility shed that gets down to 40°F. > > Brad Bassett > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Blair “TUMP” May Solarwinds Northernlights east "We must all learn to live together as brothers, or we all will perish as fools." MLK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 10:42:55 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2025 07:42:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration batteries In-Reply-To: <68858384-A20D-4534-80E0-8C80AFF6F891@gmail.com> References: <68858384-A20D-4534-80E0-8C80AFF6F891@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm glad to hear that they've improved their tech support for the Duration battery. MK has always had great tech support for their lead batteries so it makes sense that they would get up to speed on the lithium and do a good job. Yes the LBCB like the drawing attached here. Brad Bassett On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 4:28 AM Blair May via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I am in the middle of a major install using their Duration PL. I have been > a long time fan of the MK series & I have always felt that my tech support > Doug Laningham and their engineers has been very good. > dlaningham at mkbattery.com. They have recently brought on Bill Huss from > Battle Born who is very knowledgeable and actually has some experience in > solar installations. His knowledge and his excitement over this product > makes him quite a valuable asset to those of us who are trying to integrate > this product in our installs. bhuss at mkbattery.com > Both of these folks are suburb and very committed to a quality install. > Yes they are somewhat lacking w/ their inverter compatibility options but I > believe thats more on the manufactures side. I would suggest that you > discuss your questions w/ these 2 but I have seen nothing but their > openness to feed back and willingness to work thru their design > constraints. > Look to Midnite, their LBCB 250. enables one using the battery cables > supplied by MK to feed into their combiner box, 10 space w/ a 250A disco > enclosed. > > On Jun 11, 2025, at 3:46 PM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > We installed a couple dozen of these batteries in 2024, closed-loop with > Schneider XW or CSW. Tech support was really good through East Penn. We > stopped selling mainly because they are way too high priced compared to > other options, as well the BOS options are very lacking. You can buy the > expensive buss bars but they expect you to just sit the batteries on top of > each other? Or standing up on their end. No racking provisions, cabling not > really thought though fully. Cover plates won’t fit if using 4/0 wire. > > Thanks for sharing about the warranty detail. Fingers crossed. > > Kevin > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* June-10-25 8:21 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Bradley Bassett > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration batteries > > I've just heard that WM is using the Deka Duration batteries. At AEE we > had a very good relationship with MK Battery and I brought in the Deka > Duration to sell without really looking at all the potential issues first. > However, I did become aware of them after looking at how to install them in > detail. I'm curious how anyone does this with multiple batteries. I came up > with lots of configurations trying to get around the extreme lack of wiring > room in stacked batteries. I ended up doing drawings showing them stacked > on their rear end on the floor 3 deep from the wall with a battery combiner > on top of each 3 stack. Contact with tech support was always referred to > the Italian company and every time I received a very condescending and > arrogant response. Then I finally read the warranty in detail, > unfortunately after selling some, and having to buy them back. Turns out > that at that time (still?) the warranty excluded in entirety any system > installed with an inverter that did not have closed loop comms with the > battery. Also the temperature range to stay under warranty was basically > room temperature only. After discovering all of these issues I decided that > we would no longer carry them. I will say that I had no problem getting one > to communicate with my XW+ inverter through the gateway CAN bus. The one > that I ended up with has certainly worked fine, but of course is not under > any warranty, and never has been since put into operation with an open > communication inverter in a utility shed that gets down to 40°F. > > Brad Bassett > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Blair “TUMP” May > Solarwinds Northernlights east > "We must all learn to live together as brothers, > or we all will perish as fools." > MLK > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Array XWx2 XW100x3 DDx12 Off grid wiring.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 166619 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jun 10 23:36:29 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 20:36:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Indeed, the lack of wiring infrastructure is troubling. Attached is my first run at it. I am not satisfied. I bought some 6x6 gutter stock today. I will chop it into ~12” sections to set on top of each battery with an opening to the connections. I will post a photo afterwards. I am supposed to host a tour next week with some Deka staff. I will ask about the questions posed. I hope there is no hidden problems that make these batteries unsuitable. They seem solid Ps: the photo cuts off the inverter but it is just out of frame at top. PPS: I’m trying to not be amused at the Italian stereotype. We have an Italian surrogate son that is in the commercial solar industry in Italy. I will ask him about the cultural nuances. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 8:18 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I've just heard that WM is using the Deka Duration batteries. At AEE we > had a very good relationship with MK Battery and I brought in the Deka > Duration to sell without really looking at all the potential issues first. > However, I did become aware of them after looking at how to install them in > detail. I'm curious how anyone does this with multiple batteries. I came up > with lots of configurations trying to get around the extreme lack of wiring > room in stacked batteries. I ended up doing drawings showing them stacked > on their rear end on the floor 3 deep from the wall with a battery combiner > on top of each 3 stack. Contact with tech support was always referred to > the Italian company and every time I received a very condescending and > arrogant response. Then I finally read the warranty in detail, > unfortunately after selling some, and having to buy them back. Turns out > that at that time (still?) the warranty excluded in entirety any system > installed with an inverter that did not have closed loop comms with the > battery. Also the temperature range to stay under warranty was basically > room temperature only. After discovering all of these issues I decided that > we would no longer carry them. I will say that I had no problem getting one > to communicate with my XW+ inverter through the gateway CAN bus. The one > that I ended up with has certainly worked fine, but of course is not under > any warranty, and never has been since put into operation with an open > communication inverter in a utility shed that gets down to 40°F. > > Brad Bassett > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_5246.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2762452 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 12 15:03:50 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2025 19:03:50 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration batteries [Off-Topic] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1986696 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Jun 12 15:50:15 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2025 15:50:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration batteries [Off-Topic] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Look up Mersen specialty products. They have a big variety of pdbs rated up to 1500V AC/DC. And some of the individual spec sheets list, slightly different wire gauge windows of fitment based on wire type, such as fine- stranded DLO Cable versus other types. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 3:06 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Question about the Power Distribution Blocks... > > I can't seem to find these with 4/0 main and four 4/0 taps. Does anyone > have a source that is knowledgeable? The catalogs are not much help - too > many parts, too confusing. > > Also, are PDBs all rated for fine-stranded cable like this? I know only > some Polaris taps are. We normally use PDBs for parallel inverter AC in/out > splicing, but I never considered them for battery bus connections. It seems > that might work well when the ampacity requirement is modest to get a > compact battery combiner. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 2:34 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Indeed, the lack of wiring infrastructure is troubling. Attached is my >> first run at it. I am not satisfied. >> >> I bought some 6x6 gutter stock today. I will chop it into ~12” sections >> to set on top of each battery with an opening to the connections. I will >> post a photo afterwards. >> >> I am supposed to host a tour next week with some Deka staff. I will ask >> about the questions posed. I hope there is no hidden problems that make >> these batteries unsuitable. They seem solid >> >> >> >> Ps: the photo cuts off the inverter but it is just out of frame at top. >> >> PPS: I’m trying to not be amused at the Italian stereotype. We have an >> Italian surrogate son that is in the commercial solar industry in Italy. I >> will ask him about the cultural nuances. >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 8:18 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I've just heard that WM is using the Deka Duration batteries. At AEE we >>> had a very good relationship with MK Battery and I brought in the Deka >>> Duration to sell without really looking at all the potential issues first. >>> However, I did become aware of them after looking at how to install them in >>> detail. I'm curious how anyone does this with multiple batteries. I came up >>> with lots of configurations trying to get around the extreme lack of wiring >>> room in stacked batteries. I ended up doing drawings showing them stacked >>> on their rear end on the floor 3 deep from the wall with a battery combiner >>> on top of each 3 stack. Contact with tech support was always referred to >>> the Italian company and every time I received a very condescending and >>> arrogant response. Then I finally read the warranty in detail, >>> unfortunately after selling some, and having to buy them back. Turns out >>> that at that time (still?) the warranty excluded in entirety any system >>> installed with an inverter that did not have closed loop comms with the >>> battery. Also the temperature range to stay under warranty was basically >>> room temperature only. After discovering all of these issues I decided that >>> we would no longer carry them. I will say that I had no problem getting one >>> to communicate with my XW+ inverter through the gateway CAN bus. The one >>> that I ended up with has certainly worked fine, but of course is not under >>> any warranty, and never has been since put into operation with an open >>> communication inverter in a utility shed that gets down to 40°F. >>> >>> Brad Bassett >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1986696 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Jun 12 16:05:29 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2025 16:05:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deka Duration batteries [Off-Topic] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <57642bed-1e1c-4dde-a181-6b98095b3e64@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1000011245.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 939604 bytes Desc: not available URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Jun 12 18:11:49 2025 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2025 15:11:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin post, message size limit reminder In-Reply-To: <1749171555636.45f9ff64622fadf8@re-wrenches.org> References: <1749171555636.45f9ff64622fadf8@re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: <1749766356575.287a41065ccbc60f@re-wrenches.org> Contact me off-list if you have questions or concerns. In your replies, it would be helpful to delete any attached or embedded files that were part of the message you respond to. Unless, of course, the file is critical to your response. In today's case, I pushed through William's post because it was barely over the 3.5 MB threshold. But I didn't push through responses that included William's graphic, so they were rejected for being too large. Michael Welch via RE-wrenches wrote at 05:04 PM 6/5/2025: >Hi gang if you have any questions or concerns, please contact me off-list. > >The message size limit for our list server is set at 3.5 MB. Anything larger than that is likely to get rejected. > >Message size includes your text, any quoted text, the list footers, any text and graphics in your signature, and (most significantly) any graphics attached to the message. > >Usually, limiting total graphics size to under 3 MB is good enough to avoid triggering the message size limit. > >Of course, it's also helpful for readability to avoid over-quoting messages you are responding to. Unedited quoting in responses to a chain of several replies can end up getting pretty long. > >Why do we have this message size limit? To help out those with slower Internet connections, and to keep from peppering everyone's disks with large attachments. > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List rules & etiquette: >http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jun 13 07:36:11 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2025 07:36:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire Sizing - Inverter Outputs with Generator Pass Through Message-ID: I think there was a previous thread on this, but I can't seem to find it. I'm wondering how everyone is handling wire sizing on inverter output circuits for off-grid systems when there is a generator on the grid input. Let's use the Sol-Ark 15K as an example. Without a generator, it's pretty simple. 80 amp over current protection with #4 copper minimum. With a 20 kW generator that has 80A rated current and 100A overcurrent protection, the entire generator current can pass through, so now we are talking about a minimum of #3 copper. But is that really the case? Since the inverter can be programmed to do grid assist, is it necessary to size the conductors for 180A? It gets trickier in parallel installations. If you have two inverters and the same generator, in theory the generator input and output is split evenly between the two inverters, so do you size the output conductors for 80A inverter output, 130A for inverter plus half of the generator, or do you still need to assume 180A? Assuming the conductors are the same length from the generator to the load, in theory the generator pass through should be equal on each inverter, but is that really the case? How do we know how each inverter will use the generator input and pass through current, especially in a grid assist scenario? I have been erring on the side of caution and simply using 200A conductors on the output side of both single and parallel inverter installations. The inverter output wire cost, complexity, and difficulty is high. The inverter manufacturers have not made it clear in their documentation how grid pass through and grid assist works. This is one of the reasons that I have started specifying the Midnite AIO. With a 100A load breaker, the output load conductor requirement is #2 copper per the manual. I assume it is not specified as #3 because it is a 100% continuous duty breaker. Regardless, #2 saves a lot of cost and is way easier to work with than 3/0 copper. I am getting ready to specify a parallel EG4 Flexboss21 system using the GridBoss to combine them and do load shedding. This seems to be another good alternative where the inverter output circuit only needs to be 90A rated. The GridBoss can accept a 125A generator breaker, eliminating the requirement for pass through all together. This seems like a pretty well thought out approach. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jun 13 14:42:02 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2025 18:42:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Duration BOS Message-ID: Friends: I hope the attached photo is not oversized. I’m a bit of a boomer when it comes to IOS. This is an experiment in creating BOS for Duration batteries. I used 6x6 gutter stock. The square pull box has power distribution blocks acting as a battery combiner. This was a lot of work but next time should be easier. I’m supposed to meet with some Deka/MK people on Tuesday and I’m hoping to convince them to offer a conduit box for the Duration batteries. Let me know if you would consider using such an accessory. I will also ask about warranty. I will put up a web page with details on this installation soon. For now it so off to a groovy music festival! William Miller Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_5264.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2452751 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Sun Jun 15 17:12:36 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 14:12:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Tech Support - Getting Nowhere In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: sounds like you don’t want to take them to small claims court. I found it to be easy and very effective. Did you try switching which inverter is the lead vs follower? On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 4:07 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I’m once again dealing with a painful support experience from Sol-Ark > that’s confirming the broader concerns we’ve all been talking about. > > Today a customer's system went completely down due to an AC coupling > issue that seems to have been triggered by a factory reset I was instructed > to perform on a previous visit. On that previous visit, the master > inverter would not connect to MySolArk, regardless of what dongle is used > on it, so remote monitoring is dead. Despite promises of escalation to > Level 3 support last week, no one has followed up. I’m still in the dark, > and the master inverter remains offline. Calling Sol-Ark today was pretty > useless, as they were having phone problems. The level 1 tech I finally > reached was no help whatsoever. They told me the level 2 tech I was > previously talking to would call me. That never happened. Sound familiar? > No follow-through as usual. I "resolved" the AC Coupling issue myself by > turning it off, but we need that solar production! > > I have tried to resolve this MySolArk connection issue on multiple trips > to the site. Any dongle I use in the master inverter connects to MySolArk > (Connection Status OK), and they can see the dongle on their end. But they > can't see the inverter. Replaced the WiFi /RS232 board already under RMA. > That was useless. That was after having to convince the completely > illogical Level 1 support tech that the dongle was not the issue. > > To make matters worse, I have a slave inverter that needs replacement, but > I’m reluctant to proceed while the master is still offline. Sol-Ark’s RMA > process is a mess—slow responses, redundant requests, and a $3,000 deposit > with no real accountability or urgency on their part. Phone calls drop, > emails go unanswered, and when I do get someone, they’re clearly not up to > speed on the case. This isn’t a one-off experience anymore—this is a > pattern. If you’re considering using Sol-Ark on any upcoming projects, > proceed with extreme caution. Their hardware might still check boxes on > paper, but the support is downright awful. > > The return visits to this remote site have easily cost me more than a new > inverter. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Jun 15 17:28:26 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 17:28:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Tech Support - Getting Nowhere In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not sure that I have standing. I did not purchase the inverter. And I do not own the inverter. I simply installed it. But I do like the idea. I have not tried to switch the master slave relationship of the system, but that is not really the issue. Sol-Ark can see the dongle on their end, but the inverter attached to it is not reporting data. I already replaced the Wi-Fi board at their direction (after I told them that it was ridiculous and unlikely to resolve the issue because the dongle was already obviously connected to their servers). At this point, they should be sending me a new inverter. The whole situation is totally asinine. And yesterday when I looked for an update I got the good old, "actively investigating" BS. I don't know about you, but when I get a client that is having a serious issue that has dragged on for this long, I am banging heads together and not sleeping until it is resolved. Here's what I think the real problem is. I think they are relying on people overseas who wrote the software and handle the servers to resolve the issue, but they have no real direct control over them. I could be way off base on this, but I'm not buying the claims that everything has been brought in house and they have control over all of the software and settings and monitoring. At this point, there is no excuse. Once it gets escalated to the highest level of technical support, and it can't get resolved in 24 hours, send me a new inverter already. I am literally in direct contact with the head of technical support. They really do not understand the concept of what a reasonable service, support, and warranty policy is. If these were EG4 inverters and James Showalter got wind of this issue, I'd venture to say I would have a new inverter and an apology right now. I'm no EG4 fanboy, quite the skeptic actually, but they are listening to their customers. They're going to wipe out Sol-Ark if things don't change. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sun, Jun 15, 2025, 5:12 PM david quattro wrote: > sounds like you don’t want to take them to small claims court. I found it > to be easy and very effective. > Did you try switching which inverter is the lead vs follower? > > > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 4:07 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I’m once again dealing with a painful support experience from Sol-Ark >> that’s confirming the broader concerns we’ve all been talking about. >> >> Today a customer's system went completely down due to an AC coupling >> issue that seems to have been triggered by a factory reset I was instructed >> to perform on a previous visit. On that previous visit, the master >> inverter would not connect to MySolArk, regardless of what dongle is >> used on it, so remote monitoring is dead. Despite promises of escalation >> to Level 3 support last week, no one has followed up. I’m still in the >> dark, and the master inverter remains offline. Calling Sol-Ark today was >> pretty useless, as they were having phone problems. The level 1 tech I >> finally reached was no help whatsoever. They told me the level 2 tech I was >> previously talking to would call me. That never happened. Sound familiar? >> No follow-through as usual. I "resolved" the AC Coupling issue myself by >> turning it off, but we need that solar production! >> >> I have tried to resolve this MySolArk connection issue on multiple trips >> to the site. Any dongle I use in the master inverter connects to MySolArk >> (Connection Status OK), and they can see the dongle on their end. But they >> can't see the inverter. Replaced the WiFi /RS232 board already under RMA. >> That was useless. That was after having to convince the completely >> illogical Level 1 support tech that the dongle was not the issue. >> >> To make matters worse, I have a slave inverter that needs replacement, >> but I’m reluctant to proceed while the master is still offline. Sol-Ark’s >> RMA process is a mess—slow responses, redundant requests, and a $3,000 >> deposit with no real accountability or urgency on their part. Phone calls >> drop, emails go unanswered, and when I do get someone, they’re clearly not >> up to speed on the case. This isn’t a one-off experience anymore—this is a >> pattern. If you’re considering using Sol-Ark on any upcoming projects, >> proceed with extreme caution. Their hardware might still check boxes on >> paper, but the support is downright awful. >> >> The return visits to this remote site have easily cost me more than a new >> inverter. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jun 15 19:45:55 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 17:45:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering Message-ID: Hi all I’ve inherited an incorrectly sized solar thermal evacuated tube system. It’s too many tubes for the use most of the year. Does anyone know of a design or product that can remotely cover them? I can find shade cloth of course that I can cover them but something remote control would be better Thx Jay From david at quattrosolar.com Sun Jun 15 19:59:45 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 16:59:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There must be a variable mixing valve that is informed and controlled by a thermocouple On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:46 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all > > I’ve inherited an incorrectly sized solar thermal evacuated tube system. > It’s too many tubes for the use most of the year. > > Does anyone know of a design or product that can remotely cover them? > I can find shade cloth of course that I can cover them but something > remote control would be better > > Thx > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sun Jun 15 22:35:44 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 19:35:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When I found that my system was somewhat oversized, I plumbed in a mixing valve and a heat dump radiator (a few Cu pipes) in the crawl space to dump the heat. It's on the solar supply line and it works like a charm. It actually adds a very modest amount of heat to the crawl space, not enough to notice. It's going on 20 years without any issues, probably because it's an anti-freeze system so no mineral buildup in the mixing valve. I've also heard of using a fin radiator under the eve for this instead of the crawl space. The crawl space was easier for me. Brad Bassett On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 5:02 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > There must be a variable mixing valve that is informed and controlled by a > thermocouple > > > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:46 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> I’ve inherited an incorrectly sized solar thermal evacuated tube system. >> It’s too many tubes for the use most of the year. >> >> Does anyone know of a design or product that can remotely cover them? >> I can find shade cloth of course that I can cover them but something >> remote control would be better >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sun Jun 15 22:37:05 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 19:37:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One other thought, on some vacuum tube collectors, if I remember correctly, you can simply remove some of the tubes. Brad Bassett On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 7:35 PM Bradley Bassett wrote: > When I found that my system was somewhat oversized, I plumbed in a mixing > valve and a heat dump radiator (a few Cu pipes) in the crawl space to dump > the heat. It's on the solar supply line and it works like a charm. It > actually adds a very modest amount of heat to the crawl space, not enough > to notice. It's going on 20 years without any issues, probably because it's > an anti-freeze system so no mineral buildup in the mixing valve. I've also > heard of using a fin radiator under the eve for this instead of the crawl > space. The crawl space was easier for me. > > Brad Bassett > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 5:02 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> There must be a variable mixing valve that is informed and controlled by >> a thermocouple >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:46 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi all >>> >>> I’ve inherited an incorrectly sized solar thermal evacuated tube system. >>> It’s too many tubes for the use most of the year. >>> >>> Does anyone know of a design or product that can remotely cover them? >>> I can find shade cloth of course that I can cover them but something >>> remote control would be better >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Jun 15 22:47:04 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 19:47:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Jay, Yup had this same issue years ago and we used fire doors, like roll up doors but lighter smaller and less expensive. But that was years ago. Fun times On Sun, Jun 15, 2025, 7:35 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > One other thought, on some vacuum tube collectors, if I remember > correctly, you can simply remove some of the tubes. > > Brad Bassett > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 7:35 PM Bradley Bassett > wrote: > >> When I found that my system was somewhat oversized, I plumbed in a mixing >> valve and a heat dump radiator (a few Cu pipes) in the crawl space to dump >> the heat. It's on the solar supply line and it works like a charm. It >> actually adds a very modest amount of heat to the crawl space, not enough >> to notice. It's going on 20 years without any issues, probably because it's >> an anti-freeze system so no mineral buildup in the mixing valve. I've also >> heard of using a fin radiator under the eve for this instead of the crawl >> space. The crawl space was easier for me. >> >> Brad Bassett >> >> On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 5:02 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> There must be a variable mixing valve that is informed and controlled by >>> a thermocouple >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:46 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all >>>> >>>> I’ve inherited an incorrectly sized solar thermal evacuated tube >>>> system. >>>> It’s too many tubes for the use most of the year. >>>> >>>> Does anyone know of a design or product that can remotely cover them? >>>> I can find shade cloth of course that I can cover them but something >>>> remote control would be better >>>> >>>> Thx >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sue at midnitesolar.com Mon Jun 16 14:03:16 2025 From: Sue at midnitesolar.com (Sue Stankevitz) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 18:03:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum coming back? In-Reply-To: References: <1975c4aea9e.fcea1fd155975.2329616984603629272@greenwired.com> Message-ID: You are correct Brad that Midnite does offer an Epanel for the Samlex inverters. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DBDEC7.675A2220] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2025 11:08 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Bradley Bassett Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum coming back? I'm not sure why no one seems to be using the Samlex EVO inverters. At AEE when Magnum disappeared, we carried the EVO inverters as a replacement, but no one seemed to want to use them. As far as we could tell they were every bit as good as the Magnum and maybe better in some ways. I knew one of the people who tested them to death, and by the time they hit the market seemed to be nearly bullet proof. I see that they are still available. I think Midnite came up with an e-panel for it, though not near as nice as the Magnum panels. Has anyone here tried them? Brad Bassett On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 5:03 PM Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches > wrote: I was able to reach their new West Coast Sales Manager, and here’s the update I got from them: “We are in the process of getting our manufacturing facility in Oakdale, Minnesota, up and running. We expect the PAE line to be producing product by the end of Q3 this year.” That missing void was quite prominent. We tried to fill it with sol-ark but there was such a price difference and no 24v. Andrew Perkins Greenwired Purchasing Manger | Technical sales P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 M: 707-932-5595 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd P.O. Box 1686 Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [cid:image002.png at 01DBDEC7.675A2220] ---- On Wed, 04 Jun 2025 18:18:27 -0700 Dan Fink via RE-wrenches > wrote --- Just saw this on my Linked In. I really liked Magnum products and tech support before their quality, and I have many in the field. I was becoming concerned that if an inverter failed, all the associated networked products like the battery SOC monitor, web interface and AGS would be useless. Let's hope DMX can do a better job than Outback did... DMX Power Acquires Magnum Energy, Dimensions, and CSW Product Lines from Sensata Technologies; Manufacturing Returns to the U.S. April 2025 – DMX Power LLC is proud to announce the successful acquisition of the Magnum Energy, Dimensions, and CSW product lines from Sensata Technologies. This strategic move marks a significant milestone as DMX Power brings manufacturing for the Magnum Energy and Dimensions brands back to the United States, with operations set to resume in Minnesota. The decision underscores the company's commitment to enhancing quality control, improving lead times, and delivering best-in-class service. Founded by former employees with deep expertise in these legacy brands, DMX Power has spent the past several months working to restore ownership and rebuild the operational foundation. Many skilled team members who were instrumental in the original success of Magnum and Dimensions have rejoined the company, reinforcing DMX Power’s mission to put customers first. Our goal is to restore the standards of quality, responsiveness, and service that our customers deserve. While most product specifications will remain unchanged, DMX Power plans to release updated product details and 2025 pricing in April. Customers are encouraged to contact their sales representatives or email support at dmx-power.com for technical inquiries and sales at dmx-power.com for commercial requests, including orders, partnerships, or connecting with our sales team. Initial manufacturing of select Magnum and Dimensions products will begin in May, with shipments anticipated in June. Select CSW products, along with remaining inventory acquired from Sensata, will be available as early as April. Further updates on product availability and launch timelines will be provided in the coming weeks. For more information, customers can contact DMX Power directly. DMX Power thanks its partners and customers for their continued support during this exciting new chapter. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate danbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 111621 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jun 16 15:40:31 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 12:40:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9d998dbdbef1458842bce6c556c0e253@sti.net> Ground mount collector with plywood over the panels you do not want to use. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-06-15 7:47 pm, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wrenches, Jay, > Yup had this same issue years ago and we used fire doors, like roll up > doors but lighter smaller and less expensive. But that was years ago. > Fun times > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2025, 7:35 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches > wrote: > One other thought, on some vacuum tube collectors, if I remember > correctly, you can simply remove some of the tubes. > > Brad Bassett > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 7:35 PM Bradley Bassett > wrote: > When I found that my system was somewhat oversized, I plumbed in a > mixing valve and a heat dump radiator (a few Cu pipes) in the crawl > space to dump the heat. It's on the solar supply line and it works like > a charm. It actually adds a very modest amount of heat to the crawl > space, not enough to notice. It's going on 20 years without any issues, > probably because it's an anti-freeze system so no mineral buildup in > the mixing valve. I've also heard of using a fin radiator under the eve > for this instead of the crawl space. The crawl space was easier for me. > > Brad Bassett > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 5:02 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: > There must be a variable mixing valve that is informed and controlled > by a thermocouple > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:46 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi all > > I've inherited an incorrectly sized solar thermal evacuated tube > system. > It's too many tubes for the use most of the year. > > Does anyone know of a design or product that can remotely cover them? > I can find shade cloth of course that I can cover them but something > remote control would be better > > Thx > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com Mon Jun 16 16:41:45 2025 From: travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com (Travis Knipple) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:41:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 500V "Crowbar" Message-ID: Hi all, This is a repeated (rephrased) version of a previous question, but I've hit upon a new application. I'm looking to retrofit a system from existing SMA Sunny Boy inverters to work with an ESS System. My PV Array (~900' from the inverters) is 600V Voc, and the strings are combined at the Array, so Imp is 24A, Isc is 32A. Also, important to note is that 1 of my SB7000 inverters is non functional. So, my options are: (A) A 500V "Crowbar" or SRC type circuit to limit my Voc, and allow me to take the array directly to a single MPPT port on a Sol-ark Inverter Or, use AC-Coupling to the Sol-Ark, then I can... (B) A new PV Inverter that can handle 600V, 32A (Isc) on a single MPPT Port (C) A replacement SB7000 (D) Re-pull my strings of wires to something like a Solis PV Inverter Does anyone know of either: (A) a Voc limiter? (B) A PV Inverter with a single MPPT input that can handle 600V, 24A (Imp), 32A (Isc) or (C) A source for a replacement SB7000US -- Travis Knipple Senior Engineer Hudson Solar Solutions LLC Rhinebeck, NY 12572 518-539-8040 x408 | travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com PVIP# PV-111821-013612 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Mon Jun 16 17:03:46 2025 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 17:03:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Tech Support - Getting Nowhere In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008d01dbdf02$2759d950$760d8bf0$@mindspring.com> Jason So very sorry to se / hear your frustration with Sol-Ark. I too had some issues a year ago and it just seemed to go on. Finally reached out to my sales rep and she helped me get a new unit ( what was needed all along ). Please give her a call. Peter Giroux American Solar From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2025 5:28 PM To: david quattro Cc: Jason Szumlanski ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Tech Support - Getting Nowhere I'm not sure that I have standing. I did not purchase the inverter. And I do not own the inverter. I simply installed it. But I do like the idea. I have not tried to switch the master slave relationship of the system, but that is not really the issue. Sol-Ark can see the dongle on their end, but the inverter attached to it is not reporting data. I already replaced the Wi-Fi board at their direction (after I told them that it was ridiculous and unlikely to resolve the issue because the dongle was already obviously connected to their servers). At this point, they should be sending me a new inverter. The whole situation is totally asinine. And yesterday when I looked for an update I got the good old, "actively investigating" BS. I don't know about you, but when I get a client that is having a serious issue that has dragged on for this long, I am banging heads together and not sleeping until it is resolved. Here's what I think the real problem is. I think they are relying on people overseas who wrote the software and handle the servers to resolve the issue, but they have no real direct control over them. I could be way off base on this, but I'm not buying the claims that everything has been brought in house and they have control over all of the software and settings and monitoring. At this point, there is no excuse. Once it gets escalated to the highest level of technical support, and it can't get resolved in 24 hours, send me a new inverter already. I am literally in direct contact with the head of technical support. They really do not understand the concept of what a reasonable service, support, and warranty policy is. If these were EG4 inverters and James Showalter got wind of this issue, I'd venture to say I would have a new inverter and an apology right now. I'm no EG4 fanboy, quite the skeptic actually, but they are listening to their customers. They're going to wipe out Sol-Ark if things don't change. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sun, Jun 15, 2025, 5:12 PM david quattro > wrote: sounds like you don’t want to take them to small claims court. I found it to be easy and very effective. Did you try switching which inverter is the lead vs follower? On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 4:07 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: I’m once again dealing with a painful support experience from Sol-Ark that’s confirming the broader concerns we’ve all been talking about. Today a customer's system went completely down due to an AC coupling issue that seems to have been triggered by a factory reset I was instructed to perform on a previous visit. On that previous visit, the master inverter would not connect to MySolArk, regardless of what dongle is used on it, so remote monitoring is dead. Despite promises of escalation to Level 3 support last week, no one has followed up. I’m still in the dark, and the master inverter remains offline. Calling Sol-Ark today was pretty useless, as they were having phone problems. The level 1 tech I finally reached was no help whatsoever. They told me the level 2 tech I was previously talking to would call me. That never happened. Sound familiar? No follow-through as usual. I "resolved" the AC Coupling issue myself by turning it off, but we need that solar production! I have tried to resolve this MySolArk connection issue on multiple trips to the site. Any dongle I use in the master inverter connects to MySolArk (Connection Status OK), and they can see the dongle on their end. But they can't see the inverter. Replaced the WiFi /RS232 board already under RMA. That was useless. That was after having to convince the completely illogical Level 1 support tech that the dongle was not the issue. To make matters worse, I have a slave inverter that needs replacement, but I’m reluctant to proceed while the master is still offline. Sol-Ark’s RMA process is a mess—slow responses, redundant requests, and a $3,000 deposit with no real accountability or urgency on their part. Phone calls drop, emails go unanswered, and when I do get someone, they’re clearly not up to speed on the case. This isn’t a one-off experience anymore—this is a pattern. If you’re considering using Sol-Ark on any upcoming projects, proceed with extreme caution. Their hardware might still check boxes on paper, but the support is downright awful. The return visits to this remote site have easily cost me more than a new inverter. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Mon Jun 16 17:07:09 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 14:07:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 500V "Crowbar" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Travis, sounds like you are not able to re-string the array to conform to 500V max? On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 1:42 PM Travis Knipple via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > This is a repeated (rephrased) version of a previous question, but I've > hit upon a new application. > I'm looking to retrofit a system from existing SMA Sunny Boy inverters to > work with an ESS System. > My PV Array (~900' from the inverters) is 600V Voc, and the strings are > combined at the Array, so Imp is 24A, Isc is 32A. > Also, important to note is that 1 of my SB7000 inverters is non functional. > > So, my options are: > (A) A 500V "Crowbar" or SRC type circuit to limit my Voc, and allow me to > take the array directly to a single MPPT port on a Sol-ark Inverter > Or, use AC-Coupling to the Sol-Ark, then I can... > (B) A new PV Inverter that can handle 600V, 32A (Isc) on a single MPPT Port > (C) A replacement SB7000 > (D) Re-pull my strings of wires to something like a Solis PV Inverter > > Does anyone know of either: > (A) a Voc limiter? > (B) A PV Inverter with a single MPPT input that can handle 600V, 24A > (Imp), 32A (Isc) > or > (C) A source for a replacement SB7000US > > -- > Travis Knipple > Senior Engineer > Hudson Solar Solutions LLC > Rhinebeck, NY 12572 > 518-539-8040 x408 | travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com > > PVIP# PV-111821-013612 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jun 16 18:15:49 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 16:15:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 500V "Crowbar" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The LUX powered 12kw has a 600vdc input with 25 amp limitation on PV 1 Which fits your specifications perfectly. You can get them under the fortress or EG4 name jay > On Jun 16, 2025, at 2:41 PM, Travis Knipple via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi all, > > This is a repeated (rephrased) version of a previous question, but I've hit upon a new application. > I'm looking to retrofit a system from existing SMA Sunny Boy inverters to work with an ESS System. > My PV Array (~900' from the inverters) is 600V Voc, and the strings are combined at the Array, so Imp is 24A, Isc is 32A. > Also, important to note is that 1 of my SB7000 inverters is non functional. > > So, my options are: > (A) A 500V "Crowbar" or SRC type circuit to limit my Voc, and allow me to take the array directly to a single MPPT port on a Sol-ark Inverter > Or, use AC-Coupling to the Sol-Ark, then I can... > (B) A new PV Inverter that can handle 600V, 32A (Isc) on a single MPPT Port > (C) A replacement SB7000 > (D) Re-pull my strings of wires to something like a Solis PV Inverter > > Does anyone know of either: > (A) a Voc limiter? > (B) A PV Inverter with a single MPPT input that can handle 600V, 24A (Imp), 32A (Isc) > or > (C) A source for a replacement SB7000US > > -- > Travis Knipple > Senior Engineer > Hudson Solar Solutions LLC > Rhinebeck, NY 12572 > 518-539-8040 x408 | travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com > > > PVIP# PV-111821-013612 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 01:34:37 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 22:34:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery monitor for Lifepo4 batteries Message-ID: Curious what options are available and what people are using for a digital display that shows BMS info via CANbus/rj45. Something that would work with a PYLONtech type battery like the MNPowerflo5 and/or other server rack type LFP battery. I am aware of the solar assistant and it's benefits but looking for something that doesn't need a phone or computer(or wifi,bluetooth,etc.).. customer has Trace inverters and doesn't want to give them up but needs a battery upgrade and doesn't use a computer. Thanks in advance wrenches! Sunny Regards, Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 17 06:56:56 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 06:56:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 500V "Crowbar" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The EG4 18kPV only handles 26A Imp, but only 31A Isc on MPPT1. That would not meet the requirement for 32A Isc. The Flexboss21 has the same limitations (but offers two 26A Imp ports rather than one). The Fortress version of the 18kPV has a slightly lower Imp limit, and also the max recommended voltage is only 550V, so that's out, too. The Sol-Ark 15K is 26A max Imp and 46A Isc on all ports, but it's only 500V. You might look into the Midnite AIO. The max voltage is 600V. The specs say 30/22/22 for the input current limits to the MPPTs, but does not indicate if that is operating or Isc. The manual implies that it is the operating limit, with an Isc limit of 40A. On page 11 of the manual it reads: "Design for a max input current of 30A MPPT1. The inverter will self-limit beyond 30A. If current exceeds 40A Isc limit, damage will occur." Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 6:18 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The LUX powered 12kw has a 600vdc input with 25 amp limitation on PV 1 > > Which fits your specifications perfectly. > > You can get them under the fortress or EG4 name > > jay > > On Jun 16, 2025, at 2:41 PM, Travis Knipple via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > > This is a repeated (rephrased) version of a previous question, but I've > hit upon a new application. > I'm looking to retrofit a system from existing SMA Sunny Boy inverters to > work with an ESS System. > My PV Array (~900' from the inverters) is 600V Voc, and the strings are > combined at the Array, so Imp is 24A, Isc is 32A. > Also, important to note is that 1 of my SB7000 inverters is non functional. > > So, my options are: > (A) A 500V "Crowbar" or SRC type circuit to limit my Voc, and allow me to > take the array directly to a single MPPT port on a Sol-ark Inverter > Or, use AC-Coupling to the Sol-Ark, then I can... > (B) A new PV Inverter that can handle 600V, 32A (Isc) on a single MPPT Port > (C) A replacement SB7000 > (D) Re-pull my strings of wires to something like a Solis PV Inverter > > Does anyone know of either: > (A) a Voc limiter? > (B) A PV Inverter with a single MPPT input that can handle 600V, 24A > (Imp), 32A (Isc) > or > (C) A source for a replacement SB7000US > > -- > Travis Knipple > Senior Engineer > Hudson Solar Solutions LLC > Rhinebeck, NY 12572 > 518-539-8040 x408 | travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com > > PVIP# PV-111821-013612 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 10:28:27 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 08:28:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All of these options would be possible for someone younger and able, but the client is early 80’s and she wants it to work correctly without having to do the manual cover/uncover which given the collector area, elevation and temps etc isn’t an option. Which means please let me know of a good resource for solar thermal products. Specifically I need to convert this to a drain back system. I’ll need the drain back tank and new pump station thanks jay > On Jun 15, 2025, at 8:35 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: > > When I found that my system was somewhat oversized, I plumbed in a mixing valve and a heat dump radiator (a few Cu pipes) in the crawl space to dump the heat. It's on the solar supply line and it works like a charm. It actually adds a very modest amount of heat to the crawl space, not enough to notice. It's going on 20 years without any issues, probably because it's an anti-freeze system so no mineral buildup in the mixing valve. I've also heard of using a fin radiator under the eve for this instead of the crawl space. The crawl space was easier for me. > > Brad Bassett > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 5:02 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> There must be a variable mixing valve that is informed and controlled by a thermocouple >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:46 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> Hi all >>> >>> I’ve inherited an incorrectly sized solar thermal evacuated tube system. >>> It’s too many tubes for the use most of the year. >>> >>> Does anyone know of a design or product that can remotely cover them? >>> I can find shade cloth of course that I can cover them but something remote control would be better >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 10:39:02 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 07:39:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would hesitate to do drain back with evacuated tube collectors, I think they can severely overheat if cooling is not always available. The heat diversion method is automatic, I have not touched mine in decades. Brad On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 7:31 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > All of these options would be possible for someone younger and able, but > the client is early 80’s and she wants it to work correctly without having > to do the manual cover/uncover which given the collector area, elevation > and temps etc isn’t an option. > > Which means please let me know of a good resource for solar thermal > products. > Specifically I need to convert this to a drain back system. > I’ll need the drain back tank and new pump station > > thanks > > jay > > On Jun 15, 2025, at 8:35 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > When I found that my system was somewhat oversized, I plumbed in a mixing > valve and a heat dump radiator (a few Cu pipes) in the crawl space to dump > the heat. It's on the solar supply line and it works like a charm. It > actually adds a very modest amount of heat to the crawl space, not enough > to notice. It's going on 20 years without any issues, probably because it's > an anti-freeze system so no mineral buildup in the mixing valve. I've also > heard of using a fin radiator under the eve for this instead of the crawl > space. The crawl space was easier for me. > > Brad Bassett > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 5:02 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> There must be a variable mixing valve that is informed and controlled by >> a thermocouple >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:46 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi all >>> >>> I’ve inherited an incorrectly sized solar thermal evacuated tube system. >>> It’s too many tubes for the use most of the year. >>> >>> Does anyone know of a design or product that can remotely cover them? >>> I can find shade cloth of course that I can cover them but something >>> remote control would be better >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jun 17 11:24:42 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 08:24:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23f0fec5f37c9cc6824e51758ac1908b@sti.net> At that age, abandon system and use gas! I sure would not want to do this at 70, let alone 80. Keep it simple or you will be the one in the crosshair! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-06-17 7:28 am, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > All of these options would be possible for someone younger and able, > but the client is early 80's and she wants it to work correctly without > having to do the manual cover/uncover which given the collector area, > elevation and temps etc isn't an option. > > Which means please let me know of a good resource for solar thermal > products. > Specifically I need to convert this to a drain back system. > I'll need the drain back tank and new pump station > > thanks > > jay > > On Jun 15, 2025, at 8:35 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > When I found that my system was somewhat oversized, I plumbed in a > mixing valve and a heat dump radiator (a few Cu pipes) in the crawl > space to dump the heat. It's on the solar supply line and it works like > a charm. It actually adds a very modest amount of heat to the crawl > space, not enough to notice. It's going on 20 years without any issues, > probably because it's an anti-freeze system so no mineral buildup in > the mixing valve. I've also heard of using a fin radiator under the eve > for this instead of the crawl space. The crawl space was easier for me. > > Brad Bassett > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 5:02 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: > There must be a variable mixing valve that is informed and controlled > by a thermocouple > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:46 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi all > > I've inherited an incorrectly sized solar thermal evacuated tube > system. > It's too many tubes for the use most of the year. > > Does anyone know of a design or product that can remotely cover them? > I can find shade cloth of course that I can cover them but something > remote control would be better > > Thx > Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Tue Jun 17 11:43:39 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 08:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1750175019.21656626@webmail.finestplanet.com> I sized our glycol based SHW system to maximize winter production, so the two, 4 X 10 flat plate collectors are at a steep angle, but in the summer, when hot water needs are minimal, the system still produces more then is needed. I do have a 5000 BTU hydronic heater to dump excess heat, but this is inside the house to facilitate spring and fall excess production space heating, which is of course unwanted in the summer. My suggestion for your client is to do what I do, namely (hire someone to) seasonally cover most of her collectors with shade cloth which is the easiest solution. Todd On Tuesday, June 17, 2025 7:28am, "jay via RE-wrenches" said: All of these options would be possible for someone younger and able, but the client is early 80’s and she wants it to work correctly without having to do the manual cover/uncover which given the collector area, elevation and temps etc isn’t an option. Which means please let me know of a good resource for solar thermal products. Specifically I need to convert this to a drain back system. I’ll need the drain back tank and new pump station thanks jay On Jun 15, 2025, at 8:35 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: When I found that my system was somewhat oversized, I plumbed in a mixing valve and a heat dump radiator (a few Cu pipes) in the crawl space to dump the heat. It's on the solar supply line and it works like a charm. It actually adds a very modest amount of heat to the crawl space, not enough to notice. It's going on 20 years without any issues, probably because it's an anti-freeze system so no mineral buildup in the mixing valve. I've also heard of using a fin radiator under the eve for this instead of the crawl space. The crawl space was easier for me. Brad Bassett On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 5:02 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote: There must be a variable mixing valve that is informed and controlled by a thermocouple On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:46 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote:Hi all I’ve inherited an incorrectly sized solar thermal evacuated tube system. It’s too many tubes for the use most of the year. Does anyone know of a design or product that can remotely cover them? I can find shade cloth of course that I can cover them but something remote control would be better Thx Jay Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 11:50:09 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 09:50:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: <1750175019.21656626@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1750175019.21656626@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 17 15:10:29 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 15:10:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How AC Coupling Is Displayed in Solar Assistant with Sol-Ark Message-ID: Does anyone have Solar Assistant running with Sol-Arks that have AC-coupled PV on the Generator/Smart Load terminals? I'm wondering how the AC Coupled PV is rendered in the charts and dashboard. Does it appear as PV production, separate AC coupled produciton, or does it just show the net load after AC coupled PV production (which would be unfortunate). I'm curious about this on the Midnite AIO as well. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 17:46:00 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 15:46:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: References: <1750175019.21656626@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <25696EB0-59D1-4220-8740-2A460291DDA8@gmail.com> In doing research today I found the following, not sure where I can buy them at this point. 1. solar dissipation tubes. that will do about 12,000 btu or at least this one does. 2. 3 way thermostatic valve which uses a type of wax that opens and closes it at a specific temp and routes the heat through the dissipation tube vs the heat exchanger down below. jay > On Jun 17, 2025, at 9:50 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi Todd > > The issue I have with evacuated tube at 8000’ is they will get extremely hot in a short period of time, even in the dead of winter with snow reflection, so the idea of seasonal covering isn’t so practical as it is in other places and with flat plate. > > Jay > >> On Jun 17, 2025, at 9:44 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>  >> I sized our glycol based SHW system to maximize winter production, so the two, 4 X 10 flat plate collectors are at a steep angle, but in the summer, when hot water needs are minimal, the system still produces more then is needed. >> >> I do have a 5000 BTU hydronic heater to dump excess heat, but this is inside the house to facilitate spring and fall excess production space heating, which is of course unwanted in the summer. >> >> My suggestion for your client is to do what I do, namely (hire someone to) seasonally cover most of her collectors with shade cloth which is the easiest solution. >> >> Todd >> >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, June 17, 2025 7:28am, "jay via RE-wrenches" said: >> >> All of these options would be possible for someone younger and able, but the client is early 80’s and she wants it to work correctly without having to do the manual cover/uncover which given the collector area, elevation and temps etc isn’t an option. >> Which means please let me know of a good resource for solar thermal products. >> Specifically I need to convert this to a drain back system. >> I’ll need the drain back tank and new pump station >> thanks >> jay >> >> On Jun 15, 2025, at 8:35 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: >> When I found that my system was somewhat oversized, I plumbed in a mixing valve and a heat dump radiator (a few Cu pipes) in the crawl space to dump the heat. It's on the solar supply line and it works like a charm. It actually adds a very modest amount of heat to the crawl space, not enough to notice. It's going on 20 years without any issues, probably because it's an anti-freeze system so no mineral buildup in the mixing valve. I've also heard of using a fin radiator under the eve for this instead of the crawl space. The crawl space was easier for me. >> Brad Bassett >> >> On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 5:02 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> There must be a variable mixing valve that is informed and controlled by a thermocouple >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:46 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> Hi all >>>> >>>> I’ve inherited an incorrectly sized solar thermal evacuated tube system. >>>> It’s too many tubes for the use most of the year. >>>> >>>> Does anyone know of a design or product that can remotely cover them? >>>> I can find shade cloth of course that I can cover them but something remote control would be better >>>> >>>> Thx >>>> Jay >>>> >> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 18:21:37 2025 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 16:21:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: <25696EB0-59D1-4220-8740-2A460291DDA8@gmail.com> References: <1750175019.21656626@webmail.finestplanet.com> <25696EB0-59D1-4220-8740-2A460291DDA8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9D8AAB0D-0639-4D35-A2FC-F21F6AA05CD6@gmail.com> Hi Jay, I agree with Brad that Evacuated tubes are not a good (or even a reasonably possible) candidate for a drainback retrofit. If they are pass-through tubes, then they cannot fully drain as piping connections typically come through header connections at the tops of the tubes. If they are sealed heat-pipe tubes, then not only is the header unlikely to drain properly, but the tubes themselves will stagnate at a very high temperature without heat transfer fluid flow. I recommend a diversion heat- dump arrangement such as Todd suggests.Use paralleled runs of conventional hot water baseboard fin tube for the heat dissipator. This stuff is readily available at almost every plumbing supply house and it works well. Diversion can be activated by either an electric 3-way valve and a set point controller, or the passive wax-thermostat 3-way valve that you mention. I have used both methods extensively with good results. The wax thermostat will probably be significantly harder to find. Some years ago I ordered them through Low Energy Systems in Denver. Reach out to me off list and and I can supply some contact information. -Luke Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 719.588.3044 sgsrenewables at gmail.com > On Jun 17, 2025, at 3:46 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > In doing research today I found the following, not sure where I can buy them at this point. > > 1. solar dissipation tubes. that will do about 12,000 btu or at least this one does. > > 2. 3 way thermostatic valve which uses a type of wax that opens and closes it at a specific temp and routes the heat through the dissipation tube vs the heat exchanger down below. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 18:36:01 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 17:36:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire Sizing - Inverter Outputs with Generator Pass Through In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, This is a great question. I was waiting for responses, because I’ve thought this as well. Typically I have sized load conductors to either Sol Ark output or gen output, depending on which was higher, but you are absolutely right that with grid assist programmed, this number could be higher. Either OCPD or internal settings could work to avoid upsizing conductors to meet potential combined amapacity of gen + inverter. However, I’m not crystal clear on how those settings work for Sol Ark. I know there was a discussion a few weeks back where Jharen from Sol Ark said it’s possible to derate AC input/output, but it sounded like the conversation went off line. Any insight would be appreciated. Best, Chris On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 7:36 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I think there was a previous thread on this, but I can't seem to find it. > > I'm wondering how everyone is handling wire sizing on inverter output > circuits for off-grid systems when there is a generator on the grid input. > Let's use the Sol-Ark 15K as an example. > > Without a generator, it's pretty simple. 80 amp over current protection > with #4 copper minimum. > > With a 20 kW generator that has 80A rated current and 100A overcurrent > protection, the entire generator current can pass through, so now we are > talking about a minimum of #3 copper. But is that really the case? Since > the inverter can be programmed to do grid assist, is it necessary to size > the conductors for 180A? > > It gets trickier in parallel installations. If you have two inverters and > the same generator, in theory the generator input and output is split > evenly between the two inverters, so do you size the output conductors for > 80A inverter output, 130A for inverter plus half of the generator, or do > you still need to assume 180A? > > Assuming the conductors are the same length from the generator to the > load, in theory the generator pass through should be equal on each > inverter, but is that really the case? How do we know how each inverter > will use the generator input and pass through current, especially in a grid > assist scenario? > > I have been erring on the side of caution and simply using 200A conductors > on the output side of both single and parallel inverter installations. The > inverter output wire cost, complexity, and difficulty is high. > > The inverter manufacturers have not made it clear in their documentation > how grid pass through and grid assist works. > > This is one of the reasons that I have started specifying the Midnite AIO. > With a 100A load breaker, the output load conductor requirement is #2 > copper per the manual. I assume it is not specified as #3 because it is a > 100% continuous duty breaker. Regardless, #2 saves a lot of cost and is way > easier to work with than 3/0 copper. > > I am getting ready to specify a parallel EG4 Flexboss21 system using the > GridBoss to combine them and do load shedding. This seems to be another > good alternative where the inverter output circuit only needs to be 90A > rated. The GridBoss can accept a 125A generator breaker, eliminating the > requirement for pass through all together. This seems like a pretty well > thought out approach. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 21:50:37 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2025 18:50:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: <9D8AAB0D-0639-4D35-A2FC-F21F6AA05CD6@gmail.com> References: <1750175019.21656626@webmail.finestplanet.com> <25696EB0-59D1-4220-8740-2A460291DDA8@gmail.com> <9D8AAB0D-0639-4D35-A2FC-F21F6AA05CD6@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, Jay, Get a second tank, even a stock tank (for livestock) get some soft copper tube coil it aground the bottom and get a circ pump and a thermostat pump water from the solar tank to the "bonus" tank as a load dump, it can even be a old style pressure tank "no bladder" just to dump the heat into non insulated open or closed, over the night it will cool off and be ready for the next day. On Tue, Jun 17, 2025, 3:22 PM Luke Christy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jay, > I agree with Brad that Evacuated tubes are not a good (or even a > reasonably possible) candidate for a drainback retrofit. If they are > pass-through tubes, then they cannot fully drain as piping connections > typically come through header connections at the tops of the tubes. If they > are sealed heat-pipe tubes, then not only is the header unlikely to drain > properly, but the tubes themselves will stagnate at a very high temperature > without heat transfer fluid flow. > > I recommend a diversion heat- dump arrangement such as Todd suggests.Use > paralleled runs of conventional hot water baseboard fin tube for the heat > dissipator. This stuff is readily available at almost every plumbing supply > house and it works well. > > Diversion can be activated by either an electric 3-way valve and a set > point controller, or the passive wax-thermostat 3-way valve that you > mention. I have used both methods extensively with good results. The wax > thermostat will probably be significantly harder to find. Some years ago I > ordered them through Low Energy Systems in Denver. Reach out to me off list > and and I can supply some contact information. > > -Luke > > Luke Christy > Renewable energy consultant > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO 81144 > 719.588.3044 > sgsrenewables at gmail.com > > > > On Jun 17, 2025, at 3:46 PM, jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > In doing research today I found the following, not sure where I can buy > them at this point. > > 1. solar dissipation tubes. that will do about 12,000 btu or at least > this one does. > > 2. 3 way thermostatic valve which uses a type of wax that opens and closes > it at a specific temp and routes the heat through the dissipation tube vs > the heat exchanger down below. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 18 01:55:08 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 01:55:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire Sizing - Inverter Outputs with Generator Pass Through In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, I'm hoping to get some feedback here, as Sol-Ark tech support has a new answer every time you ask them. I don't love the thought of buying a MID for an off-grid project, but the GridBoss approach seems well thought out. A single generator connection for all paralleled inverters is a nice feature as long as you can accept 200A maximum combined load and three inverters, which should be sufficient for most off-grid homes. The savings in wire size and other distribution components makes the MID a palatable expense, especially in a triple inverter scenario. It also improves serviceability in some ways (although the MID itself is another potential failure point). Next, if we could just get someone to make a 400A MID, we would be in dreamland territory for me. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Jun 17, 2025, 6:36 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Jason, > > This is a great question. I was waiting for responses, because I’ve > thought this as well. > > Typically I have sized load conductors to either Sol Ark output or gen > output, depending on which was higher, but you are absolutely right that > with grid assist programmed, this number could be higher. Either OCPD or > internal settings could work to avoid upsizing conductors to meet potential > combined amapacity of gen + inverter. However, I’m not crystal clear on how > those settings work for Sol Ark. I know there was a discussion a few weeks > back where Jharen from Sol Ark said it’s possible to derate AC > input/output, but it sounded like the conversation went off line. > > Any insight would be appreciated. > > Best, > > Chris > > On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 7:36 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I think there was a previous thread on this, but I can't seem to find it. >> >> I'm wondering how everyone is handling wire sizing on inverter output >> circuits for off-grid systems when there is a generator on the grid input. >> Let's use the Sol-Ark 15K as an example. >> >> Without a generator, it's pretty simple. 80 amp over current protection >> with #4 copper minimum. >> >> With a 20 kW generator that has 80A rated current and 100A overcurrent >> protection, the entire generator current can pass through, so now we are >> talking about a minimum of #3 copper. But is that really the case? Since >> the inverter can be programmed to do grid assist, is it necessary to size >> the conductors for 180A? >> >> It gets trickier in parallel installations. If you have two inverters and >> the same generator, in theory the generator input and output is split >> evenly between the two inverters, so do you size the output conductors for >> 80A inverter output, 130A for inverter plus half of the generator, or do >> you still need to assume 180A? >> >> Assuming the conductors are the same length from the generator to the >> load, in theory the generator pass through should be equal on each >> inverter, but is that really the case? How do we know how each inverter >> will use the generator input and pass through current, especially in a grid >> assist scenario? >> >> I have been erring on the side of caution and simply using 200A >> conductors on the output side of both single and parallel inverter >> installations. The inverter output wire cost, complexity, and difficulty is >> high. >> >> The inverter manufacturers have not made it clear in their documentation >> how grid pass through and grid assist works. >> >> This is one of the reasons that I have started specifying the Midnite >> AIO. With a 100A load breaker, the output load conductor requirement is #2 >> copper per the manual. I assume it is not specified as #3 because it is a >> 100% continuous duty breaker. Regardless, #2 saves a lot of cost and is way >> easier to work with than 3/0 copper. >> >> I am getting ready to specify a parallel EG4 Flexboss21 system using the >> GridBoss to combine them and do load shedding. This seems to be another >> good alternative where the inverter output circuit only needs to be 90A >> rated. The GridBoss can accept a 125A generator breaker, eliminating the >> requirement for pass through all together. This seems like a pretty well >> thought out approach. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Jun 18 07:11:43 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 11:11:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: <9D8AAB0D-0639-4D35-A2FC-F21F6AA05CD6@gmail.com> References: <1750175019.21656626@webmail.finestplanet.com> <25696EB0-59D1-4220-8740-2A460291DDA8@gmail.com> <9D8AAB0D-0639-4D35-A2FC-F21F6AA05CD6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <05B2C4C4-D97D-48AF-8907-02E0B2C694E3@solarwork.com> I have not read all of the comments on this thread so please excuse any repeats. The valley that I live in has so many drain back systems it’s amazing. I have inherited the service on them not that I wanted to. The trick seems to be that you need a pump that gets the Evac tube manifold full of water & pushes the air out very quickly in order to eliminate the possibility of steam lockup. The taco 2699 series of pumps were used here for a lot of the systems . There are many up sides to employing evac tubes in general & many down sides. Upsides include: Higher temperatures at colder air temps (if not covered with snow). Lighter weight at installation . Smaller footprint on roof or area of installation . Production of hot water in less than desirable weather conditions. Production of higher water temps. The down sides of evac tube systems with drain back are: When the tank gets hot & the circ pump to the collector gets turned off as long as it’s sunny the manifold is too hot to restart & resume to make additional hot water as it steam locks. This Of course limits the overall efficiency of the system & comprises this the systems production, not good as you get 1 tank of hot water/ day unless very cloudy conditions for a bit & the manifold cools.This requires a controller that will not restart the pump or you burn out pumps. Avoiding shut down requires having a very large tank(s).The systems here have oversized atmospheric tanks 300-800+ gallons each with dual heat exchangers one for solar & one for DHW before the backup source. Pollution during the production of the tubes All are Made in china due too pollution during tube production pollutionp Steam lockup Tubes Still covered in snow long after the sun has returned after the snow storm has cleared out Evac tubes have their uses though I tend to not install them In residential systems. I think that high water/ higher temperature requirements usage applications all day like schools, jails, commercial production facilities, dairies, etc . That all said. I tend to install flat plate collectors appropriately sized for system needs, with some kind of way to address overheat when people go on vacation midsummer so I don’t have to go rescue the system when I am on a vacation! Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 On Jun 17, 2025, at 6:23 PM, Luke Christy via RE-wrenches wrote:  Hi Jay, I agree with Brad that Evacuated tubes are not a good (or even a reasonably possible) candidate for a drainback retrofit. If they are pass-through tubes, then they cannot fully drain as piping connections typically come through header connections at the tops of the tubes. If they are sealed heat-pipe tubes, then not only is the header unlikely to drain properly, but the tubes themselves will stagnate at a very high temperature without heat transfer fluid flow. I recommend a diversion heat- dump arrangement such as Todd suggests.Use paralleled runs of conventional hot water baseboard fin tube for the heat dissipator. This stuff is readily available at almost every plumbing supply house and it works well. Diversion can be activated by either an electric 3-way valve and a set point controller, or the passive wax-thermostat 3-way valve that you mention. I have used both methods extensively with good results. The wax thermostat will probably be significantly harder to find. Some years ago I ordered them through Low Energy Systems in Denver. Reach out to me off list and and I can supply some contact information. -Luke Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 719.588.3044 sgsrenewables at gmail.com On Jun 17, 2025, at 3:46 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: In doing research today I found the following, not sure where I can buy them at this point. 1. solar dissipation tubes. that will do about 12,000 btu or at least this one does. 2. 3 way thermostatic valve which uses a type of wax that opens and closes it at a specific temp and routes the heat through the dissipation tube vs the heat exchanger down below. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Jun 18 10:29:31 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 10:29:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Technical Question In-Reply-To: <3fd65232f1be09937375b0f447d8870f@redwoodalliance.org> References: <63afd5cd4afaa46b21454de49f0b2af1@redwoodalliance.org> <3fd65232f1be09937375b0f447d8870f@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hello Jharen, Members of the RE Wrench list are still hoping for an answer to the question of how to program a limit on the AC output of Sol-Ark inverters. Can you send an explanation to me, to post on the list, or post it yourself if you are able. Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-06-04 18:29, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > Hi Jharen, > > Paul Wood will be contacting you. We talked during the system redesign > process. Paul is one of the physical installers of the system. > > This system has 9 Sol-Ark 15K inverters. Breakers are tripping on the > input and output. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2025-06-04 17:03, Poole, Jharen via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello, > > I'd like to get this question resolved for you as quickly as possible. > Could you please reach out to me at jharen.poole at sol-ark.com with the > details of how much power or amperage you'd like to limit for this > installation? Additionally, please include any relevant information > about the inverter and its setup--such as inverter SN, whether it's > configured for zero net metering or any other specific setup. > > Best Regards, > > Jharen Poole > Applications Engineer II > 972-575-8875 > > ------------------------- > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 10:10 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski ; Wodenrobert23 > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Technical Question > > Caution: This email is from an external source. > > If I understand the question correctly, you can use Time of Use to set > the maximum charge or sell power in watts for up to 6 time slots. I > believe this will limit only the battery charge or discharge rate, > however. I don't believe this will limit the total input (loads plus > battery charging). You can limit the total sell power with the Grid > Sell feature in the System Work Mode settings. The Max Sell Power > should limit the total solar export plus battery selling to this > setting. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 10:55 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Sol-Ark has not been available to answer a question. > > We need to reduce the AC amperage input and output on a system. Tech > support had assured us that this can be done, prior to installing the > system. It is unclear how to do this. > > Does anyone know how to adjust the AC in and AC out maximum amperage on > the 15kW Sol-Ark inverters? > > -- > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-t2yohww0.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matt at getpimby.com Wed Jun 18 15:12:01 2025 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 15:12:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro and the spoiled stuff if the fridge Message-ID: Hi All, I'm writing to ask if anyone else might have run into a similar situation. My customer came home to dead circuits after being out of town for several weeks. They are grid-tied and have a BBUS with an XW Pro. Their PV array is AC-coupled (Enphase IQ7+). When they arrived home all of the critical load circuits were dead. The other circuits were working fine. The internet router was dead. I got called and made a visit. The XW was not feeding AC through to the loads and it was not charging the batteries. Two battery status lights on the XW were illuminated. A value "279" was displayed. The small LED next to the "A" for charging was illuminated. No other green LED was on - no AC1, no AC2, no Event, no Equalize . The batteries had been discharged, but were well above the LBCO. I tested the grid and it was 60Hz with 240V. All good there. There is no SCP. This is one of the early installs with a Gateway and I did not have computer stuff to get a look at any codes or other status info. Perplexed, and a bit frustrated, I turned off the main DC 250A breaker and let it sit for a couple of minutes. Then I turned the breaker back on and the XW worked just as one would hope - the grid connected through AC1 and, in turn, powered the critical loads and began charging the battery. I thought that I would be able to find some answers once things were back online and I got home to the office where I could look at Insight and Enlighten. Looking at the Enlighten data I could see that production had ceased ten days prior to my visit. Insight has no recorded Alarms/Warnings/Events for this time period. The XW load and battery discharging data show very little draw throughout the period which makes me believe the AC loads were not powered and the battery drain was attributable to idle consumption of the XW, Gateway and Battery Monitor. A series of thunderstorms coincided with the loss of data reporting. The neighbors, when asked, offered that they had lost an internet router to the same storms. They said that they didn't recall a power outage, but their router was cooked and their PV system (Enphase) had stopped working requiring them to contact tech support. My gut is that a surge on the Gateway's CAT cable triggered the XW's relays to open and stay open. The system seems to be working just fine now and doesn't appear to have suffered lasting damage. Not so for the venison in the freezer. I'd love to hear from anyone who may have had a similar experience with the XW or who feels like they have a fair guess as to what caused the problem. -Matt -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC 304-704-5943 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Jun 18 15:22:05 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 19:22:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro and the spoiled stuff if the fridge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting. What version firmware on the XW Pro? Do you have surge protection toroids on all the data cables? It does sound like stray static. I have seen not exact before but similarly interrupted inverter performance solved by a power cycle. Bummer on the freezer for the client. There are alarms for that… Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2025 12:12 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Matt Sherald Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro and the spoiled stuff if the fridge Hi All, I'm writing to ask if anyone else might have run into a similar situation. My customer came home to dead circuits after being out of town for several weeks. They are grid-tied and have a BBUS with an XW Pro. Their PV array is AC-coupled (Enphase IQ7+). When they arrived home all of the critical load circuits were dead. The other circuits were working fine. The internet router was dead. I got called and made a visit. The XW was not feeding AC through to the loads and it was not charging the batteries. Two battery status lights on the XW were illuminated. A value "279" was displayed. The small LED next to the "A" for charging was illuminated. No other green LED was on - no AC1, no AC2, no Event, no Equalize . The batteries had been discharged, but were well above the LBCO. I tested the grid and it was 60Hz with 240V. All good there. There is no SCP. This is one of the early installs with a Gateway and I did not have computer stuff to get a look at any codes or other status info. Perplexed, and a bit frustrated, I turned off the main DC 250A breaker and let it sit for a couple of minutes. Then I turned the breaker back on and the XW worked just as one would hope - the grid connected through AC1 and, in turn, powered the critical loads and began charging the battery. I thought that I would be able to find some answers once things were back online and I got home to the office where I could look at Insight and Enlighten. Looking at the Enlighten data I could see that production had ceased ten days prior to my visit. Insight has no recorded Alarms/Warnings/Events for this time period. The XW load and battery discharging data show very little draw throughout the period which makes me believe the AC loads were not powered and the battery drain was attributable to idle consumption of the XW, Gateway and Battery Monitor. A series of thunderstorms coincided with the loss of data reporting. The neighbors, when asked, offered that they had lost an internet router to the same storms. They said that they didn't recall a power outage, but their router was cooked and their PV system (Enphase) had stopped working requiring them to contact tech support. My gut is that a surge on the Gateway's CAT cable triggered the XW's relays to open and stay open. The system seems to be working just fine now and doesn't appear to have suffered lasting damage. Not so for the venison in the freezer. I'd love to hear from anyone who may have had a similar experience with the XW or who feels like they have a fair guess as to what caused the problem. -Matt -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC 304-704-5943 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jun 18 15:27:05 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 12:27:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro and the spoiled stuff if the fridge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3d157ad6b0890383788d27e6679808a3@sti.net> I would say did you look at historical events? It is easy to miss that and you only see current events. Is there surge protection on all the usual places? Not a fan of AC coupling XW. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-06-18 12:12 pm, Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm writing to ask if anyone else might have run into a similar > situation. > My customer came home to dead circuits after being out of town for > several weeks. They are grid-tied and have a BBUS with an XW Pro. > Their PV array is AC-coupled (Enphase IQ7+). > > When they arrived home all of the critical load circuits were dead. > The other circuits were working fine. The internet router was dead. > I got called and made a visit. The XW was not feeding AC through to > the loads and it was not charging the batteries. > > Two battery status lights on the XW were illuminated. A value "279" > was displayed. The small LED next to the "A" for charging was > illuminated. No other green LED was on - no AC1, no AC2, no Event, no > Equalize . The batteries had been discharged, but were well above the > LBCO. I tested the grid and it was 60Hz with 240V. All good there. > > There is no SCP. This is one of the early installs with a Gateway and > I did not have computer stuff to get a look at any codes or other > status info. > > Perplexed, and a bit frustrated, I turned off the main DC 250A breaker > and let it sit for a couple of minutes. Then I turned the breaker back > on and the XW worked just as one would hope - the grid connected > through AC1 and, in turn, powered the critical loads and began charging > the battery. > > I thought that I would be able to find some answers once things were > back online and I got home to the office where I could look at Insight > and Enlighten. Looking at the Enlighten data I could see that > production had ceased ten days prior to my visit. > > Insight has no recorded Alarms/Warnings/Events for this time period. > The XW load and battery discharging data show very little draw > throughout the period which makes me believe the AC loads were not > powered and the battery drain was attributable to idle consumption of > the XW, Gateway and Battery Monitor. > > A series of thunderstorms coincided with the loss of data reporting. > The neighbors, when asked, offered that they had lost an internet > router to the same storms. They said that they didn't recall a power > outage, but their router was cooked and their PV system (Enphase) had > stopped working requiring them to contact tech support. > > My gut is that a surge on the Gateway's CAT cable triggered the XW's > relays to open and stay open. The system seems to be working just fine > now and doesn't appear to have suffered lasting damage. Not so for the > venison in the freezer. > > I'd love to hear from anyone who may have had a similar experience with > the XW or who feels like they have a fair guess as to what caused the > problem. > -Matt > > -- > > Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC > > 304-704-5943 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 96439eaf.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 101796 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matt at getpimby.com Wed Jun 18 15:30:25 2025 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 15:30:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro and the spoiled stuff if the fridge In-Reply-To: <3d157ad6b0890383788d27e6679808a3@sti.net> References: <3d157ad6b0890383788d27e6679808a3@sti.net> Message-ID: I did look at those historical events. Not a thing there. I agree that the list is a bit hidden. -Matt On Wed, Jun 18, 2025 at 3:27 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I would say did you look at historical events? It is easy to miss that and > you only see current events. Is there surge protection on all the usual > places? Not a fan of AC coupling XW. Good Luck! > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-06-18 12:12 pm, Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > > I'm writing to ask if anyone else might have run into a similar situation. > My customer came home to dead circuits after being out of town for several > weeks. They are grid-tied and have a BBUS with an XW Pro. Their PV array > is AC-coupled (Enphase IQ7+). > > When they arrived home all of the critical load circuits were dead. The > other circuits were working fine. The internet router was dead. > I got called and made a visit. The XW was not feeding AC through to the > loads and it was not charging the batteries. > > Two battery status lights on the XW were illuminated. A value "279" was > displayed. The small LED next to the "A" for charging was illuminated. > No other green LED was on - no AC1, no AC2, no Event, no Equalize . The > batteries had been discharged, but were well above the LBCO. I tested the > grid and it was 60Hz with 240V. All good there. > > There is no SCP. This is one of the early installs with a Gateway and I > did not have computer stuff to get a look at any codes or other status > info. > > Perplexed, and a bit frustrated, I turned off the main DC 250A breaker and > let it sit for a couple of minutes. Then I turned the breaker back on and > the XW worked just as one would hope - the grid connected through AC1 and, > in turn, powered the critical loads and began charging the battery. > > I thought that I would be able to find some answers once things were back > online and I got home to the office where I could look at Insight and > Enlighten. Looking at the Enlighten data I could see that production had > ceased ten days prior to my visit. > > Insight has no recorded Alarms/Warnings/Events for this time period. > The XW load and battery discharging data show very little draw throughout > the period which makes me believe the AC loads were not powered and the > battery drain was attributable to idle consumption of the XW, Gateway and > Battery Monitor. > > > A series of thunderstorms coincided with the loss of data reporting. The > neighbors, when asked, offered that they had lost an internet router to the > same storms. They said that they didn't recall a power outage, but their > router was cooked and their PV system (Enphase) had stopped working > requiring them to contact tech support. > > My gut is that a surge on the Gateway's CAT cable triggered the XW's > relays to open and stay open. The system seems to be working just fine now > and doesn't appear to have suffered lasting damage. Not so for the venison > in the freezer. > > I'd love to hear from anyone who may have had a similar experience with > the XW or who feels like they have a fair guess as to what caused the > problem. > > -Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > > 304-704-5943 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC 304-704-5943 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 96439eaf.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 101796 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Wed Jun 18 15:52:24 2025 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 12:52:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: <05B2C4C4-D97D-48AF-8907-02E0B2C694E3@solarwork.com> References: <05B2C4C4-D97D-48AF-8907-02E0B2C694E3@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <284DF85F-9443-4B6C-B923-885AB0B8A764@yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Jun 18 16:47:01 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 16:47:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] External device for a Grundfos circulating pump Message-ID: I am considering using a Grundfos Alpha1 26-99F, ECM circulating pump for our off grid hydronic heating system. The pump is regulated by a 0 to 10 Volt external device measuring temperature and pressure. What specifically is that device, and where does it go in the system? Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Wed Jun 18 16:53:38 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 13:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: <284DF85F-9443-4B6C-B923-885AB0B8A764@yahoo.com> References: <05B2C4C4-D97D-48AF-8907-02E0B2C694E3@solarwork.com> <284DF85F-9443-4B6C-B923-885AB0B8A764@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1750280018.632222647@webmail.finestplanet.com> Like you, I cut my solar teeth doing SHW back in the mid 1980s. I built my system over 25 years ago. It has two, flat plate 4 X 10 collectors (I got used for free) circulating glycol. This loop feeds a flat plate heat exchanger for the potable side. Both sides are pumped. The glycol loop is PV direct (via LCB). The potable side is switched via a differential controller. The pumps last around 20+ years. It is a super simple, low tech way to heat water (black pipes in the sun). The only issue I have is it sometimes makes too much hot water. Compare this to top of the technology pyramid, high tech PV semiconductors and inverters (usually reliant on grid power), or refrigerant /compressor heat pumps... to heat water? Obsolete? Not in my mind... but what do I know. I am one of those people who embraces the "Limits to Growth" research, which details that (doh) infinite growth is not possible on a finite planet, so small and simple are job 1. But I am a supposed luddite, running no maintenance, 30 year life, flooded lead calcium batteries on my GTBB system... where a very modest, 15 kWh/day PV system makes our efficient homestead zero energy, including winter electric heating (in Mount Shasta snow country) and EV charging. Stepping off my old, worn out soap box - lol! Todd On Wednesday, June 18, 2025 12:52pm, "Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches" said: We have been installing solar hot water heating system since 1987. Previous to 87, during the Carter years, there were 100 solar companies in the Portland Oregon area. So far as we can tell, we are the last man standing doing solar thermal in Portland. Subsequently, we don’t know how to advise people on what to do with their solar thermal systems. The plumbing industry never embraced solar thermal, solar electric has sucked up all the solar thermal people, and heat pump hot water heaters have come along, which bring people to the same resource footprint as thermal brings people down to. I have slowly come to the painful conclusion that solar thermal is obsolete. Thoughts? Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. [ 503-238-4502 ]( tel:503-238-4502 ) [ www.SolarEnergyOregon.com ]( http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/ ) On Jun 18, 2025, at 4:12 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: I have not read all of the comments on this thread so please excuse any repeats. The valley that I live in has so many drain back systems it’s amazing. I have inherited the service on them not that I wanted to. The trick seems to be that you need a pump that gets the Evac tube manifold full of water & pushes the air out very quickly in order to eliminate the possibility of steam lockup. The taco 2699 series of pumps were used here for a lot of the systems . There are many up sides to employing evac tubes in general & many down sides. Upsides include: Higher temperatures at colder air temps (if not covered with snow). Lighter weight at installation . Smaller footprint on roof or area of installation . Production of hot water in less than desirable weather conditions. Production of higher water temps. The down sides of evac tube systems with drain back are: When the tank gets hot & the circ pump to the collector gets turned off as long as it’s sunny the manifold is too hot to restart & resume to make additional hot water as it steam locks. This Of course limits the overall efficiency of the system & comprises this the systems production, not good as you get 1 tank of hot water/ day unless very cloudy conditions for a bit & the manifold cools.This requires a controller that will not restart the pump or you burn out pumps. Avoiding shut down requires having a very large tank(s).The systems here have oversized atmospheric tanks 300-800+ gallons each with dual heat exchangers one for solar & one for DHW before the backup source. Pollution during the production of the tubes All are Made in china due too pollution during tube production pollutionp Steam lockup Tubes Still covered in snow long after the sun has returned after the snow storm has cleared out Evac tubes have their uses though I tend to not install them In residential systems. I think that high water/ higher temperature requirements usage applications all day like schools, jails, commercial production facilities, dairies, etc . That all said. I tend to install flat plate collectors appropriately sized for system needs, with some kind of way to address overheat when people go on vacation midsummer so I don’t have to go rescue the system when I am on a vacation! Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 On Jun 17, 2025, at 6:23 PM, Luke Christy via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi Jay, I agree with Brad that Evacuated tubes are not a good (or even a reasonably possible) candidate for a drainback retrofit. If they are pass-through tubes, then they cannot fully drain as piping connections typically come through header connections at the tops of the tubes. If they are sealed heat-pipe tubes, then not only is the header unlikely to drain properly, but the tubes themselves will stagnate at a very high temperature without heat transfer fluid flow. I recommend a diversion heat- dump arrangement such as Todd suggests.Use paralleled runs of conventional hot water baseboard fin tube for the heat dissipator. This stuff is readily available at almost every plumbing supply house and it works well. Diversion can be activated by either an electric 3-way valve and a set point controller, or the passive wax-thermostat 3-way valve that you mention. I have used both methods extensively with good results. The wax thermostat will probably be significantly harder to find. Some years ago I ordered them through Low Energy Systems in Denver. Reach out to me off list and and I can supply some contact information. -Luke Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 719.588.3044 sgsrenewables at gmail.com On Jun 17, 2025, at 3:46 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: In doing research today I found the following, not sure where I can buy them at this point. 1. solar dissipation tubes. that will do about 12,000 btu or at least this one does. 2. 3 way thermostatic valve which uses a type of wax that opens and closes it at a specific temp and routes the heat through the dissipation tube vs the heat exchanger down below._______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jun 18 16:54:05 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 14:54:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro and the spoiled stuff if the fridge In-Reply-To: References: <3d157ad6b0890383788d27e6679808a3@sti.net> Message-ID: One thing I would do is to add an automatic transfer switch to prevent this from happening again. jay > On Jun 18, 2025, at 1:30 PM, Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I did look at those historical events. Not a thing there. > > I agree that the list is a bit hidden. > > -Matt > > On Wed, Jun 18, 2025 at 3:27 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> I would say did you look at historical events? It is easy to miss that and you only see current events. Is there surge protection on all the usual places? Not a fan of AC coupling XW. Good Luck! >> >> <96439eaf.jpeg> >> >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> >> On 2025-06-18 12:12 pm, Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I'm writing to ask if anyone else might have run into a similar situation. >>> My customer came home to dead circuits after being out of town for several weeks. They are grid-tied and have a BBUS with an XW Pro. Their PV array is AC-coupled (Enphase IQ7+). >>> >>> When they arrived home all of the critical load circuits were dead. The other circuits were working fine. The internet router was dead. >>> I got called and made a visit. The XW was not feeding AC through to the loads and it was not charging the batteries. >>> >>> Two battery status lights on the XW were illuminated. A value "279" was displayed. The small LED next to the "A" for charging was illuminated. No other green LED was on - no AC1, no AC2, no Event, no Equalize . The batteries had been discharged, but were well above the LBCO. I tested the grid and it was 60Hz with 240V. All good there. >>> >>> There is no SCP. This is one of the early installs with a Gateway and I did not have computer stuff to get a look at any codes or other status info. >>> >>> Perplexed, and a bit frustrated, I turned off the main DC 250A breaker and let it sit for a couple of minutes. Then I turned the breaker back on and the XW worked just as one would hope - the grid connected through AC1 and, in turn, powered the critical loads and began charging the battery. >>> >>> I thought that I would be able to find some answers once things were back online and I got home to the office where I could look at Insight and Enlighten. Looking at the Enlighten data I could see that production had ceased ten days prior to my visit. >>> >>> Insight has no recorded Alarms/Warnings/Events for this time period. >>> The XW load and battery discharging data show very little draw throughout the period which makes me believe the AC loads were not powered and the battery drain was attributable to idle consumption of the XW, Gateway and Battery Monitor. >>> >>> >>> A series of thunderstorms coincided with the loss of data reporting. The neighbors, when asked, offered that they had lost an internet router to the same storms. They said that they didn't recall a power outage, but their router was cooked and their PV system (Enphase) had stopped working requiring them to contact tech support. >>> >>> My gut is that a surge on the Gateway's CAT cable triggered the XW's relays to open and stay open. The system seems to be working just fine now and doesn't appear to have suffered lasting damage. Not so for the venison in the freezer. >>> >>> I'd love to hear from anyone who may have had a similar experience with the XW or who feels like they have a fair guess as to what caused the problem. >>> >>> -Matt >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Matt Sherald >>> PIMBY Energy, LLC >>> >>> 304-704-5943 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > 304-704-5943 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jun 18 17:01:10 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 15:01:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] External device for a Grundfos circulating pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Drake, Flow rate isn’t all that important for hydronic. Most all systems just use a single pump and multiple zones. I’d go with a multi speed from taco or grundfos or there are a few others if you are going AC. You’ll save yourself close to 500 $over the 26-99F such as the grundfos UPS15-58 1/25 hp 3 speed should do it. jay > On Jun 18, 2025, at 2:47 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I am considering using a Grundfos Alpha1 26-99F, ECM circulating pump for our off grid hydronic heating system. The pump is regulated by a 0 to 10 Volt external device measuring temperature and pressure. > > What specifically is that device, and where does it go in the system? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Jun 18 17:24:51 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 14:24:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: <284DF85F-9443-4B6C-B923-885AB0B8A764@yahoo.com> References: <05B2C4C4-D97D-48AF-8907-02E0B2C694E3@solarwork.com> <284DF85F-9443-4B6C-B923-885AB0B8A764@yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have a soft spot for solar hot water, but alas it is obsolete in most if not all circumstances. We stopped doing it probably 10 years ago in the Bay Area after finding a) a loss in demand, b) maintenance often costing more than the calculated savings, and c) PV costs and reliability substantially improving. The cost and reliability of a few PV mods and a heat pump water heater beats the pants off of a comparable solar hot water system. I used to regularly teach a solar hot water class for PG&E and the last time we did it I think there were only 8 attendees compared to hundreds that would attend energy storage classes. I believe I was the last NABCEP Solar Heating Installer in California when I finally let that certification lapse. There clearly aren't many folks doing it any more. Anyway, for the right offgrid DIY remote living type situation, I can see where SHW still makes sense. For mainstream applications, I don't think so. August Luminalt On Wed, Jun 18, 2025 at 12:54 PM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We have been installing solar hot water heating system since 1987. > Previous to 87, during the Carter years, there were 100 solar companies in > the Portland Oregon area. So far as we can tell, we are the last man > standing doing solar thermal in Portland. Subsequently, we don’t know how > to advise people on what to do with their solar thermal systems. The > plumbing industry never embraced solar thermal, solar electric has sucked > up all the solar thermal people, and heat pump hot water heaters have come > along, which bring people to the same resource footprint as thermal brings > people down to. I have slowly come to the painful conclusion that solar > thermal is obsolete. > > Thoughts? > > > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* > President > > > *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.The BRIGHT CHOICE* > > *Since 1987,** helping you and your * > *Portland neighbors move** towards an environmentally sustainable future.* > > > *503-238-4502 <503-238-4502>www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > * > > On Jun 18, 2025, at 4:12 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  I have not read all of the comments on this thread so please excuse any > repeats. > > The valley that I live in has so many drain back systems it’s amazing. I > have inherited the service on them not that I wanted to. The trick seems > to be that you need a pump that gets the Evac tube manifold full of water & > pushes the air out very quickly in order to eliminate the possibility of > steam lockup. The taco 2699 series of pumps were used here for a lot of the > systems . > There are many up sides to employing evac tubes in general & many down > sides. > Upsides include: > Higher temperatures at colder air temps (if not covered with snow). > Lighter weight at installation . > Smaller footprint on roof or area of installation . > Production of hot water in less than desirable weather conditions. > Production of higher water temps. > > The down sides of evac tube systems with drain back are: > When the tank gets hot & the circ pump to the collector gets turned off as > long as it’s sunny the manifold is too hot to restart & resume to make > additional hot water as it steam locks. This Of course limits the overall > efficiency of the system & comprises this the systems production, not good > as you get 1 tank of hot water/ day unless very cloudy conditions for a bit > & the manifold cools.This requires a controller that will not restart the > pump or you burn out pumps. > Avoiding shut down requires having a very large tank(s).The systems here > have oversized atmospheric tanks 300-800+ gallons each with dual heat > exchangers one for solar & one for DHW before the backup source. > Pollution during the production of the tubes > All are Made in china due too pollution during tube production pollutionp > Steam lockup > Tubes Still covered in snow long after the sun has returned after the snow > storm has cleared out > > Evac tubes have their uses though I tend to not install them In > residential systems. I think that high water/ higher temperature > requirements usage applications all day like schools, jails, commercial > production facilities, dairies, etc . > > That all said. I tend to install flat plate collectors appropriately > sized for system needs, with some kind of way to address overheat when > people go on vacation midsummer so I don’t have to go rescue the system > when I am on a vacation! > > > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > > On Jun 17, 2025, at 6:23 PM, Luke Christy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  Hi Jay, > I agree with Brad that Evacuated tubes are not a good (or even a > reasonably possible) candidate for a drainback retrofit. If they are > pass-through tubes, then they cannot fully drain as piping connections > typically come through header connections at the tops of the tubes. If they > are sealed heat-pipe tubes, then not only is the header unlikely to drain > properly, but the tubes themselves will stagnate at a very high temperature > without heat transfer fluid flow. > > I recommend a diversion heat- dump arrangement such as Todd suggests.Use > paralleled runs of conventional hot water baseboard fin tube for the heat > dissipator. This stuff is readily available at almost every plumbing supply > house and it works well. > > Diversion can be activated by either an electric 3-way valve and a set > point controller, or the passive wax-thermostat 3-way valve that you > mention. I have used both methods extensively with good results. The wax > thermostat will probably be significantly harder to find. Some years ago I > ordered them through Low Energy Systems in Denver. Reach out to me off list > and and I can supply some contact information. > > -Luke > > Luke Christy > Renewable energy consultant > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO 81144 > 719.588.3044 > sgsrenewables at gmail.com > > > > On Jun 17, 2025, at 3:46 PM, jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > In doing research today I found the following, not sure where I can buy > them at this point. > > 1. solar dissipation tubes. that will do about 12,000 btu or at least > this one does. > > 2. 3 way thermostatic valve which uses a type of wax that opens and closes > it at a specific temp and routes the heat through the dissipation tube vs > the heat exchanger down below. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jun 18 17:38:38 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 14:38:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar thermal covering In-Reply-To: References: <05B2C4C4-D97D-48AF-8907-02E0B2C694E3@solarwork.com> <284DF85F-9443-4B6C-B923-885AB0B8A764@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Perfectly said August! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [3]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [4] [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-06-18 2:24 pm, August Goers via RE-wrenches wrote: > I have a soft spot for solar hot water, but alas it is obsolete in most > if not all circumstances. We stopped doing it probably 10 years ago in > the Bay Area after finding a) a loss in demand, b) maintenance often > costing more than the calculated savings, and c) PV costs and > reliability substantially improving. The cost and reliability of a few > PV mods and a heat pump water heater beats the pants off of a > comparable solar hot water system. I used to regularly teach a solar > hot water class for PG&E and the last time we did it I think there were > only 8 attendees compared to hundreds that would attend energy storage > classes. I believe I was the last NABCEP Solar Heating Installer in > California when I finally let that certification lapse. There clearly > aren't many folks doing it any more. > > Anyway, for the right offgrid DIY remote living type situation, I can > see where SHW still makes sense. For mainstream applications, I don't > think so. > > August > Luminalt > > On Wed, Jun 18, 2025 at 12:54 PM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > We have been installing solar hot water heating system since 1987. > Previous to 87, during the Carter years, there were 100 solar companies > in the Portland Oregon area. So far as we can tell, we are the last man > standing doing solar thermal in Portland. Subsequently, we don't know > how to advise people on what to do with their solar thermal systems. > The plumbing industry never embraced solar thermal, solar electric has > sucked up all the solar thermal people, and heat pump hot water heaters > have come along, which bring people to the same resource footprint as > thermal brings people down to. I have slowly come to the painful > conclusion that solar thermal is obsolete. > > Thoughts? > > Andrew Koyaanisqatsi > President > Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > _The BRIGHT CHOICE_ > > _ _ > Since 1987, helping you and your > Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. > > 503-238-4502 [1] > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com [2] > > On Jun 18, 2025, at 4:12 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I have not read all of the comments on this thread so please excuse any > repeats. > > The valley that I live in has so many drain back systems it's amazing. > I have inherited the service on them not that I wanted to. The trick > seems to be that you need a pump that gets the Evac tube manifold full > of water & pushes the air out very quickly in order to eliminate the > possibility of steam lockup. The taco 2699 series of pumps were used > here for a lot of the systems . > There are many up sides to employing evac tubes in general & many down > sides. > Upsides include: > Higher temperatures at colder air temps (if not covered with snow). > Lighter weight at installation . > Smaller footprint on roof or area of installation . > Production of hot water in less than desirable weather conditions. > Production of higher water temps. > > The down sides of evac tube systems with drain back are: > When the tank gets hot & the circ pump to the collector gets turned off > as long as it's sunny the manifold is too hot to restart & resume to > make additional hot water as it steam locks. This Of course limits the > overall efficiency of the system & comprises this the systems > production, not good as you get 1 tank of hot water/ day unless very > cloudy conditions for a bit & the manifold cools.This requires a > controller that will not restart the pump or you burn out pumps. > Avoiding shut down requires having a very large tank(s).The systems > here have oversized atmospheric tanks 300-800+ gallons each with dual > heat exchangers one for solar & one for DHW before the backup source. > Pollution during the production of the tubes > All are Made in china due too pollution during tube production > pollutionp > Steam lockup > Tubes Still covered in snow long after the sun has returned after the > snow storm has cleared out > > Evac tubes have their uses though I tend to not install them In > residential systems. I think that high water/ higher temperature > requirements usage applications all day like schools, jails, commercial > production facilities, dairies, etc . > > That all said. I tend to install flat plate collectors appropriately > sized for system needs, with some kind of way to address overheat when > people go on vacation midsummer so I don't have to go rescue the system > when I am on a vacation! > > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > > On Jun 17, 2025, at 6:23 PM, Luke Christy via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Jay, > I agree with Brad that Evacuated tubes are not a good (or even a > reasonably possible) candidate for a drainback retrofit. If they are > pass-through tubes, then they cannot fully drain as piping connections > typically come through header connections at the tops of the tubes. If > they are sealed heat-pipe tubes, then not only is the header unlikely > to drain properly, but the tubes themselves will stagnate at a very > high temperature without heat transfer fluid flow. > > I recommend a diversion heat- dump arrangement such as Todd > suggests.Use paralleled runs of conventional hot water baseboard fin > tube for the heat dissipator. This stuff is readily available at almost > every plumbing supply house and it works well. > > Diversion can be activated by either an electric 3-way valve and a set > point controller, or the passive wax-thermostat 3-way valve that you > mention. I have used both methods extensively with good results. The > wax thermostat will probably be significantly harder to find. Some > years ago I ordered them through Low Energy Systems in Denver. Reach > out to me off list and and I can supply some contact information. > > -Luke > > Luke Christy > Renewable energy consultant > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional(tm): > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO 81144 > 719.588.3044 > sgsrenewables at gmail.com > > On Jun 17, 2025, at 3:46 PM, jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > In doing research today I found the following, not sure where I can buy > them at this point. > > 1. solar dissipation tubes. that will do about 12,000 btu or at least > this one does. > > 2. 3 way thermostatic valve which uses a type of wax that opens and > closes it at a specific temp and routes the heat through the > dissipation tube vs the heat exchanger down below. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] tel:503-238-4502 [2] http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/ [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 19 06:15:17 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 06:15:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split Message-ID: I'm getting requests to install 4-6 panels for these mini-splits. I'm saying no so far, but it got me thinking... What are people doing for rapid shutdown for these systems? I can't see them being exempt. The manual is silent on the issue. It just shows a DC isolator from the panels to the point of connection in the unit. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 19 10:03:46 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 07:03:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2fd77bdd224a5384b369c8d2a15f9f91@sti.net> Not doing rapid shutdown because the panels are not on a roof, ever! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-06-19 3:15 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > I'm getting requests to install 4-6 panels for these mini-splits. I'm > saying no so far, but it got me thinking... What are people doing for > rapid shutdown for these systems? I can't see them being exempt. The > manual is silent on the issue. It just shows a DC isolator from the > panels to the point of connection in the unit. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jun 19 10:27:45 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 07:27:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split In-Reply-To: <2fd77bdd224a5384b369c8d2a15f9f91@sti.net> References: <2fd77bdd224a5384b369c8d2a15f9f91@sti.net> Message-ID: If the PV circuits enter the home RSS is technically required. My enthusiasm for RSS has diminished so your secret is safe with me. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 7:04 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Not doing rapid shutdown because the panels are not on a roof, ever! > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-06-19 3:15 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I'm getting requests to install 4-6 panels for these mini-splits. I'm > saying no so far, but it got me thinking... What are people doing for rapid > shutdown for these systems? I can't see them being exempt. The manual is > silent on the issue. It just shows a DC isolator from the panels to the > point of connection in the unit. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 11:32:36 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 11:32:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split In-Reply-To: References: <2fd77bdd224a5384b369c8d2a15f9f91@sti.net> Message-ID: My understanding of these mini splits is that there is also an AC input, so you could potentially run an RSS Transmitter from that source panel and install Tigos or something of the sort. On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 10:28 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > If the PV circuits enter the home RSS is technically required. > > My enthusiasm for RSS has diminished so your secret is safe with me. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 7:04 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Not doing rapid shutdown because the panels are not on a roof, ever! >> >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2025-06-19 3:15 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I'm getting requests to install 4-6 panels for these mini-splits. I'm >> saying no so far, but it got me thinking... What are people doing for rapid >> shutdown for these systems? I can't see them being exempt. The manual is >> silent on the issue. It just shows a DC isolator from the panels to the >> point of connection in the unit. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jun 19 11:33:42 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 09:33:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split In-Reply-To: References: <2fd77bdd224a5384b369c8d2a15f9f91@sti.net> Message-ID: <8ef512c4-7fb7-4227-a90b-1e1861d48618@solarray.com> The PV circuit stops at the PV disconnect.  Put the PV disconnect on the wall before it comes in, then RSS is NOT required. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 6/19/2025 8:27 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > If the PV circuits enter the home RSS is technically required. > > My enthusiasm for RSS has diminished so your secret is safe with me. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 7:04 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Not doing rapid shutdown because the panels are not on a roof, ever! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-06-19 3:15 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> I'm getting requests to install 4-6 panels for these mini-splits. >> I'm saying no so far, but it got me thinking... What are people >> doing for rapid shutdown for these systems? I can't see them >> being exempt. The manual is silent on the issue. It just shows a >> DC isolator from the panels to the point of connection in the unit. >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jun 19 12:35:51 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 09:35:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Free NEC PDF Message-ID: <86f57c3e491f48ae5976f5f34dede453@mail.gmail.com> Friends: California has its own electrical code. It is the California Electric Code. As far as I can tell, it is a verbatim copy of the NEC. It is given a different year designation. For example: the 2022 CEC is based on the 2020 NEC. If you could use a free PDF version of the 2020 NEC, it can be found here: https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code/ca/2022_California_Electrical_Code.pdf William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jun 19 12:31:00 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 09:31:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split In-Reply-To: <8ef512c4-7fb7-4227-a90b-1e1861d48618@solarray.com> References: <2fd77bdd224a5384b369c8d2a15f9f91@sti.net> <8ef512c4-7fb7-4227-a90b-1e1861d48618@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1ed6750e2e6ace9ec25b7b2977f0c63f@mail.gmail.com> Ray: You are referring to a distinction between “PV Source” versus “PV Output” circuits. Unfortunately, according to the code all “PV system circuits” are considered when determining the requirement for RSS. As I see it, the disconnect you suggest does not remove the requirement for RSS if any “PV System circuit” is “installed on or in” a structure that is intended for any use in addition to housing PV equipment. This applies to a ground-mount PV array. I am not arguing the requirement makes sense—I believe it does not. I am just suggesting how a literal reading of the code would be interpreted. Being able to understand this will prepare us to anticipate what a building inspector or plan checker might require. See text of code below. *690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. **PV* *system circuits installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid* *shutdown function to reduce shock hazard for firefighters in* *accordance with 690.12(A) through (D).* *Exception: Ground-mounted PV system circuits that enter buildings,* *of which the sole purpose is to house PV system equipment,* *shall not be required to comply with 690.12.* I would argue that if you could mount the outdoor portion of the mini-split on a backboard or pad separated even inches from the home, you would not be required to have RSS. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Thursday, June 19, 2025 8:34 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Cc:* Ray Walters *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split The PV circuit stops at the PV disconnect. Put the PV disconnect on the wall before it comes in, then RSS is NOT required. Ray Walters Remote Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 19 13:25:02 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 13:25:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I guess the secondary question is why would anyone use this system anyway in a grid interconnected environment. The only rationale I could see is to have some level of air conditioning when the sun is shining without having to go through the expense of adding a hybrid inverter and batteries. But by the time you install solar panels with a rapid shutdown system, the return on that investment seems terrible considering that much of the solar energy generated will be wasted unless you somehow need maximum cooling from this unit 365 days a year during the daylight hours. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 6:15 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I'm getting requests to install 4-6 panels for these mini-splits. I'm > saying no so far, but it got me thinking... What are people doing for rapid > shutdown for these systems? I can't see them being exempt. The manual is > silent on the issue. It just shows a DC isolator from the panels to the > point of connection in the unit. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jun 19 13:53:47 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 10:53:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are two reasons I could see: · Your existing PV rating is too small. · You do not have any existing PV and you do not want to incur more utility expenses. I do see a real limitation to direct-DC air conditioning (which I think is what we are discussing): No AC when the sun is not high in the sky. That alone makes this impractical William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Thursday, June 19, 2025 10:25 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split I guess the secondary question is why would anyone use this system anyway in a grid interconnected environment. The only rationale I could see is to have some level of air conditioning when the sun is shining without having to go through the expense of adding a hybrid inverter and batteries. But by the time you install solar panels with a rapid shutdown system, the return on that investment seems terrible considering that much of the solar energy generated will be wasted unless you somehow need maximum cooling from this unit 365 days a year during the daylight hours. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 6:15 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: I'm getting requests to install 4-6 panels for these mini-splits. I'm saying no so far, but it got me thinking... What are people doing for rapid shutdown for these systems? I can't see them being exempt. The manual is silent on the issue. It just shows a DC isolator from the panels to the point of connection in the unit. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Jun 19 14:09:24 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 14:09:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another SolArk issue, this time re Data Monitoring In-Reply-To: <63271b112319a8dfa41d7e2aa509844b@mail.gmail.com> References: <629829A5-3FF0-4CE6-A7FF-D23426138942@gmail.com> <63271b112319a8dfa41d7e2aa509844b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maybe this is something you all know, but I did not.  I put in a SolArk system w/o batteries for now. I spent so much time trying to understand why the DAS did not record import/export of power. The generations data exactly mimicked the utility data but in reverse, even at night, which led me on a wild goose chase. I have been told that because the CTs are dc powered, they cannot do this.......... And I am the first person so passionate about this. I told them that this issue was not in the manual, that the CTs would not provide load data w/o batteries, and they agreed. I want to ask if anyone can tell me that this is how other inverters similar to SolArk work?  I spent such a large amount of time that appears unnecessary with a better manual. Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: U0ALOZ5p101pIn5u.png Type: image/png Size: 223683 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarwks at cybermesa.com Thu Jun 19 14:33:57 2025 From: solarwks at cybermesa.com (Carl Hansen) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 12:33:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0e0320c3-b30b-4c8b-8e97-e62b04a0616c@cybermesa.com> There are a few of these EG4 solar hybrid units in my area, all installed by homeowners on Off Grid homes,  they have to be connected to the homes AC system so that when the sun isn't shining they will run just as well off 120vac. I'm assuming when the sun is shining the outdoor and indoor unit are powered by the solar modules, they don't run without the 120vac connected.  They also will heat the home in the winter but not as well as they cool.  Carl Hansen  Hansen&Sun Electric  505 470-0770 On 2025-06-19 11:53 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > There are two reasons I could see:, > > ·Your existing PV rating is too small. > > ·You do not have any existing PV and you do not want to incur more > utility expenses. > > I do see a real limitation to direct-DC air conditioning (which I > think is what we are discussing):  No AC when the sun is not high in > the sky.  That alone makes this impractical > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, June 19, 2025 10:25 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split > > I guess the secondary question is why would anyone use this system > anyway in a grid interconnected environment. The only rationale I > could see is to have some level of air conditioning when the sun is > shining without having to go through the expense of adding a hybrid > inverter and batteries. But by the time you install solar panels with > a rapid shutdown system, the return on that investment seems terrible > considering that much of the solar energy generated will be wasted > unless you somehow need maximum cooling from this unit 365 days a year > during the daylight hours. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 6:15 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > I'm getting requests to install 4-6 panels for these mini-splits. > I'm saying no so far, but it got me thinking... What are people > doing for rapid shutdown for these systems? I can't see them being > exempt. The manual is silent on the issue. It just shows a DC > isolator from the panels to the point of connection in the unit. > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 19 14:35:15 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 11:35:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6cf3771bf8383f34cbfd378ce25a7f86@sti.net> The EG4 is not a bad split. Reason my client wanted it was a redundant cooling back-up if his battery/inverter/solar went down. Definitely run AC to it from the main system. Getting close to the solstice and solar can power this well into the evening😎 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-06-19 10:53 am, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > There are two reasons I could see: > > · Your existing PV rating is too small. > > · You do not have any existing PV and you do not want to incur > more utility expenses. > > I do see a real limitation to direct-DC air conditioning (which I think > is what we are discussing): No AC when the sun is not high in the sky. > That alone makes this impractical > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [1] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2025 10:25 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split > > I guess the secondary question is why would anyone use this system > anyway in a grid interconnected environment. The only rationale I could > see is to have some level of air conditioning when the sun is shining > without having to go through the expense of adding a hybrid inverter > and batteries. But by the time you install solar panels with a rapid > shutdown system, the return on that investment seems terrible > considering that much of the solar energy generated will be wasted > unless you somehow need maximum cooling from this unit 365 days a year > during the daylight hours. > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 6:15 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > >> I'm getting requests to install 4-6 panels for these mini-splits. I'm >> saying no so far, but it got me thinking... What are people doing for >> rapid shutdown for these systems? I can't see them being exempt. The >> manual is silent on the issue. It just shows a DC isolator from the >> panels to the point of connection in the unit. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 19 14:39:37 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 11:39:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another SolArk issue, this time re Data Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: <629829A5-3FF0-4CE6-A7FF-D23426138942@gmail.com> <63271b112319a8dfa41d7e2aa509844b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Why would you not use a battery? I get it that this has the grid, but, why? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-06-19 11:09 am, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > Maybe this is something you all know, but I did not. I put in a SolArk > system w/o batteries for now. I spent so much time trying to understand > why the DAS did not record import/export of power. The generations data > exactly mimicked the utility data but in reverse, even at night, which > led me on a wild goose chase. > > I have been told that because the CTs are dc powered, they cannot do > this.......... And I am the first person so passionate about this. > > I told them that this issue was not in the manual, that the CTs would > not provide load data w/o batteries, and they agreed. > > I want to ask if anyone can tell me that this is how other inverters > similar to SolArk work? I spent such a large amount of time that > appears unnecessary with a better manual. > > Thank you, Chris > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: U0ALOZ5p101pIn5u.png Type: image/png Size: 223683 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 19 15:01:53 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 15:01:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split In-Reply-To: <6cf3771bf8383f34cbfd378ce25a7f86@sti.net> References: <6cf3771bf8383f34cbfd378ce25a7f86@sti.net> Message-ID: I can see the redundancy reason. There does not seem to be an economic reason to do this, especially if you are on-grid or already have a suitably sized off-grid or backup system. Just use a regular mini-split seems more logical. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 2:35 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > The EG4 is not a bad split. Reason my client wanted it was a redundant > cooling back-up if his battery/inverter/solar went down. > Definitely run AC to it from the main system. Getting close to the > solstice and solar can power this well into the evening😎 > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-06-19 10:53 am, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > There are two reasons I could see: > > > > · Your existing PV rating is too small. > > · You do not have any existing PV and you do not want to incur > more utility expenses. > > > > I do see a real limitation to direct-DC air conditioning (which I think is > what we are discussing): No AC when the sun is not high in the sky. That > alone makes this impractical > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, June 19, 2025 10:25 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split > > > > I guess the secondary question is why would anyone use this system anyway > in a grid interconnected environment. The only rationale I could see is to > have some level of air conditioning when the sun is shining without having > to go through the expense of adding a hybrid inverter and batteries. But by > the time you install solar panels with a rapid shutdown system, the return > on that investment seems terrible considering that much of the solar energy > generated will be wasted unless you somehow need maximum cooling from this > unit 365 days a year during the daylight hours. > > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 6:15 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I'm getting requests to install 4-6 panels for these mini-splits. I'm > saying no so far, but it got me thinking... What are people doing for rapid > shutdown for these systems? I can't see them being exempt. The manual is > silent on the issue. It just shows a DC isolator from the panels to the > point of connection in the unit. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 15:02:49 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 12:02:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split In-Reply-To: <6cf3771bf8383f34cbfd378ce25a7f86@sti.net> References: <6cf3771bf8383f34cbfd378ce25a7f86@sti.net> Message-ID: Team Wrenches, For the about 6 to 7 years l used 3 versions, untill semi retiring, PV assisted, PV Direct and 48 VDC units, PV Assisted is a hybrid car, either works, PV direct works with sun, no sun no AC, the 48 vdc version is great for off grid applications, did many in Hawaii, DC to DC simple, so what l am saying it all depends on what you actually have just cuz it says pv don't mean a or nothing. Many manufactures have all of these options Fun times On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 11:35 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The EG4 is not a bad split. Reason my client wanted it was a redundant > cooling back-up if his battery/inverter/solar went down. > Definitely run AC to it from the main system. Getting close to the > solstice and solar can power this well into the evening😎 > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-06-19 10:53 am, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > There are two reasons I could see: > > > > · Your existing PV rating is too small. > > · You do not have any existing PV and you do not want to incur > more utility expenses. > > > > I do see a real limitation to direct-DC air conditioning (which I think is > what we are discussing): No AC when the sun is not high in the sky. That > alone makes this impractical > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, June 19, 2025 10:25 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split > > > > I guess the secondary question is why would anyone use this system anyway > in a grid interconnected environment. The only rationale I could see is to > have some level of air conditioning when the sun is shining without having > to go through the expense of adding a hybrid inverter and batteries. But by > the time you install solar panels with a rapid shutdown system, the return > on that investment seems terrible considering that much of the solar energy > generated will be wasted unless you somehow need maximum cooling from this > unit 365 days a year during the daylight hours. > > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 6:15 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I'm getting requests to install 4-6 panels for these mini-splits. I'm > saying no so far, but it got me thinking... What are people doing for rapid > shutdown for these systems? I can't see them being exempt. The manual is > silent on the issue. It just shows a DC isolator from the panels to the > point of connection in the unit. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Thu Jun 19 15:09:24 2025 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 14:09:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split In-Reply-To: References: <6cf3771bf8383f34cbfd378ce25a7f86@sti.net> Message-ID: In Minnesota we are essentially limited to 40 kW of grid tied net metered solar. But there is no limit on non-grid connected. So if I had mini splits that were directly solar powered that would reduce my electricity consumption so I could sell it instead of use it. In my case with my ICF construction house that weighs a million pounds the PV direct air conditioning would be great because all we need to do is keep the average interior temperature low and the house has enough thermal mass too balance things out. thank you, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 (apologies for the brevity and spelling...from my phone) On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 2:02 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I can see the redundancy reason. There does not seem to be an economic > reason to do this, especially if you are on-grid or already have a suitably > sized off-grid or backup system. Just use a regular mini-split seems more > logical. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 2:35 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > >> The EG4 is not a bad split. Reason my client wanted it was a redundant >> cooling back-up if his battery/inverter/solar went down. >> Definitely run AC to it from the main system. Getting close to the >> solstice and solar can power this well into the evening😎 >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2025-06-19 10:53 am, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> There are two reasons I could see: >> >> >> >> · Your existing PV rating is too small. >> >> · You do not have any existing PV and you do not want to incur >> more utility expenses. >> >> >> >> I do see a real limitation to direct-DC air conditioning (which I think >> is what we are discussing): No AC when the sun is not high in the sky. >> That alone makes this impractical >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Thursday, June 19, 2025 10:25 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split >> >> >> >> I guess the secondary question is why would anyone use this system anyway >> in a grid interconnected environment. The only rationale I could see is to >> have some level of air conditioning when the sun is shining without having >> to go through the expense of adding a hybrid inverter and batteries. But by >> the time you install solar panels with a rapid shutdown system, the return >> on that investment seems terrible considering that much of the solar energy >> generated will be wasted unless you somehow need maximum cooling from this >> unit 365 days a year during the daylight hours. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 6:15 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> I'm getting requests to install 4-6 panels for these mini-splits. I'm >> saying no so far, but it got me thinking... What are people doing for rapid >> shutdown for these systems? I can't see them being exempt. The manual is >> silent on the issue. It just shows a DC isolator from the panels to the >> point of connection in the unit. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 23:24:34 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 23:24:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split In-Reply-To: References: <6cf3771bf8383f34cbfd378ce25a7f86@sti.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 3:10 PM James Jarvis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > In Minnesota we are essentially limited to 40 kW of grid tied net metered > solar. But there is no limit on non-grid connected. So if I had mini splits > that were directly solar powered that would reduce my electricity > consumption so I could sell it instead of use it. > > > In my case with my ICF construction house that weighs a million pounds the > PV direct air conditioning would be great because all we need to do is keep > the average interior temperature low and the house has enough thermal mass > too balance things out. > > thank you, > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > > (apologies for the brevity and spelling...from my phone) > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 2:02 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I can see the redundancy reason. There does not seem to be an economic >> reason to do this, especially if you are on-grid or already have a suitably >> sized off-grid or backup system. Just use a regular mini-split seems more >> logical. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 2:35 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> The EG4 is not a bad split. Reason my client wanted it was a redundant >>> cooling back-up if his battery/inverter/solar went down. >>> Definitely run AC to it from the main system. Getting close to the >>> solstice and solar can power this well into the evening😎 >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2025-06-19 10:53 am, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> There are two reasons I could see: >>> >>> >>> >>> · Your existing PV rating is too small. >>> >>> · You do not have any existing PV and you do not want to incur >>> more utility expenses. >>> >>> >>> >>> I do see a real limitation to direct-DC air conditioning (which I think >>> is what we are discussing): No AC when the sun is not high in the sky. >>> That alone makes this impractical >>> >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 19, 2025 10:25 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Mini Split >>> >>> >>> >>> 8 >>> >>> 8 > hours. >>> >>> >>> >>> i u >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2025, 6:15 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>> I'm getting requests to install 4-6 panels for these mini-splits. I'm >>> saying no so far, but it got me thinking... What are people doing for rapid >>> shutdown for these systems? I can't see them being exempt. The manual is >>> silent on the issue. It just shows a DC isolator from the panels to the >>> point of connection in the unit. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jun 20 06:47:19 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 06:47:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another SolArk issue, this time re Data Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: <629829A5-3FF0-4CE6-A7FF-D23426138942@gmail.com> <63271b112319a8dfa41d7e2aa509844b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3f75b1a7-ca8d-4e33-8a79-93360df5f9ba@entech-engineering.com> because the owner does not have the money now to install batteries On 6/19/2025 2:39 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Why would you not use a battery?  I get it that this has the grid, > but, why? > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-06-19 11:09 am, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Maybe this is something you all know, but I did not.  I put in a >> SolArk system w/o batteries for now. I spent so much time trying to >> understand why the DAS did not record import/export of power. The >> generations data exactly mimicked the utility data but in reverse, >> even at night, which led me on a wild goose chase. >> >> >> I have been told that because the CTs are dc powered, they cannot do >> this.......... And I am the first person so passionate about this. >> >> I told them that this issue was not in the manual, that the CTs would >> not provide load data w/o batteries, and they agreed. >> >> I want to ask if anyone can tell me that this is how other inverters >> similar to SolArk work?  I spent such a large amount of time that >> appears unnecessary with a better manual. >> >> >> Thank you, Chris >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel, PE >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> (401) 447-5773 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: U0ALOZ5p101pIn5u.png Type: image/png Size: 223683 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jun 20 09:32:07 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 09:32:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another SolArk issue, this time re Data Monitoring In-Reply-To: <3f75b1a7-ca8d-4e33-8a79-93360df5f9ba@entech-engineering.com> References: <629829A5-3FF0-4CE6-A7FF-D23426138942@gmail.com> <63271b112319a8dfa41d7e2aa509844b@mail.gmail.com> <3f75b1a7-ca8d-4e33-8a79-93360df5f9ba@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: There is another advantage to being able to monitor w/o batteries initially. It allows data to be collected on how the facility uses energy which is much better in my opinion for sizing than an inventory and and hours assumed load study. On 6/20/2025 6:47 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > because the owner does not have the money now to install batteries > > On 6/19/2025 2:39 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> >> Why would you not use a battery?  I get it that this has the grid, >> but, why? >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2025-06-19 11:09 am, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> Maybe this is something you all know, but I did not.  I put in a >>> SolArk system w/o batteries for now. I spent so much time trying to >>> understand why the DAS did not record import/export of power. The >>> generations data exactly mimicked the utility data but in reverse, >>> even at night, which led me on a wild goose chase. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have been told that because the CTs are dc powered, they cannot do >>> this.......... And I am the first person so passionate about this. >>> >>> I told them that this issue was not in the manual, that the CTs >>> would not provide load data w/o batteries, and they agreed. >>> >>> I want to ask if anyone can tell me that this is how other inverters >>> similar to SolArk work?  I spent such a large amount of time that >>> appears unnecessary with a better manual. >>> >>> >>> Thank you, Chris >>> >>> -- >>> Christopher Warfel, PE >>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>> (401) 447-5773 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com Fri Jun 20 09:49:56 2025 From: Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com (Poole, Jharen) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 13:49:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Technical Question In-Reply-To: References: <63afd5cd4afaa46b21454de49f0b2af1@redwoodalliance.org> <3fd65232f1be09937375b0f447d8870f@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hello Drake, Making adjustments like this would be best to have a review by our support team. Reducing the global AC output of the inverter involves a thorough understanding of the installation site and the overall goals for the system. To determine the best course of action, we’ll need to gather some key information, some of these questions would include: What are you aiming to achieve with this installation? How is the system currently configured? Is this requirement expected to change in the future? Is the inverter operating in grid-tied or off-grid mode? Depending on the site’s purpose and configuration, different approaches may be more suitable. Some customers benefit more from setting a max A discharge rate, using the load limit power setting (if supported by the inverter firmware), or receiving a command to reduce the global AC output. Each option has specific requirements, and in some cases, these changes may have a permanent effect on the inverter. That’s why it’s critical for our team to fully understand the setup before recommending a solution. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:e6d548ff-5ca8-4e76-971f-8cf4366c916c] ________________________________ From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2025 9:29 AM To: Poole, Jharen Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Technical Question Caution: This email is from an external source. Hello Jharen, Members of the RE Wrench list are still hoping for an answer to the question of how to program a limit on the AC output of Sol-Ark inverters. Can you send an explanation to me, to post on the list, or post it yourself if you are able. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2025-06-04 18:29, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: Hi Jharen, Paul Wood will be contacting you. We talked during the system redesign process. Paul is one of the physical installers of the system. This system has 9 Sol-Ark 15K inverters. Breakers are tripping on the input and output. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2025-06-04 17:03, Poole, Jharen via RE-wrenches wrote: Hello, I'd like to get this question resolved for you as quickly as possible. Could you please reach out to me at jharen.poole at sol-ark.com with the details of how much power or amperage you'd like to limit for this installation? Additionally, please include any relevant information about the inverter and its setup—such as inverter SN, whether it's configured for zero net metering or any other specific setup. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:17502569716852cd4bb20ae144200974 at redwoodalliance.org] ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 10:10 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski ; Wodenrobert23 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Technical Question Caution: This email is from an external source. If I understand the question correctly, you can use Time of Use to set the maximum charge or sell power in watts for up to 6 time slots. I believe this will limit only the battery charge or discharge rate, however. I don't believe this will limit the total input (loads plus battery charging). You can limit the total sell power with the Grid Sell feature in the System Work Mode settings. The Max Sell Power should limit the total solar export plus battery selling to this setting. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 10:55 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: Sol-Ark has not been available to answer a question. We need to reduce the AC amperage input and output on a system. Tech support had assured us that this can be done, prior to installing the system. It is unclear how to do this. Does anyone know how to adjust the AC in and AC out maximum amperage on the 15kW Sol-Ark inverters? -- Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-t2yohww0.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: Outlook-t2yohww0.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-r2frzgfg.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: Outlook-r2frzgfg.png URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 09:51:33 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 07:51:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Another SolArk issue, this time re Data Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Jun 22 12:46:34 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2025 09:46:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need 1 astroenergy CHSM6610P-235 Message-ID: <0ea243b9fb05c8644bb5a22842d68893@mail.gmail.com> Got a broken panel. Contact me off list if you have one of these or in the same series. Thanks, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 14:58:37 2025 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2025 18:58:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] charging a 2017 Chevy Volt off-grid Message-ID: Wrenches, I've got a new neighbor here living in an off-grid home with a system of mine. She has a 2017 Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid. It draws 12A on high setting or 8 Amps at 120VAC. It charges fine off my homes VFX 3524OutBack but on her homes FX 2524 OutBack the charger indicator at the male cord plug end immediately goes Red and won't charge at all. Manufacturers label at the indicator light says it could be a ground problem. Both the outlet that does operate the charger fine and the one that gives the red signal are GFCI. The GFCI that works is over ten years old while the outlet that won't charge is new if that makes a difference. The new outlet that won't charge operates other loads just fine and I measure 121 VAC with my Fluke. Thanks for your time, Dave Palumbo Retired Hyde Park, Vermont -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Mon Jun 23 15:15:09 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2025 12:15:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] charging a 2017 Chevy Volt off-grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had a similar problem with a Tesla Charger and a golf cart battery charger. Our problems were intermittent. The golf cart charger would balk on GFCI receptacles, but not 'regular' ones. Resolution was: we cleaned up all the ground wires, ground rod itself, clamps, crimps, etc to bright fresh copper, and tightened all ground terminal screws. Luckily in my case that was all it took. the problems went away completely. On Mon, Jun 23, 2025 at 12:01 PM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > I've got a new neighbor here living in an off-grid home with a system of > mine. She has a 2017 Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid. > It draws 12A on high setting or 8 Amps at 120VAC. > It charges fine off my homes VFX 3524OutBack but on her homes FX 2524 > OutBack the charger indicator at the male cord plug end immediately goes > Red and won't charge at all. Manufacturers label at the indicator light > says it could be a ground problem. > Both the outlet that does operate the charger fine and the one that gives > the red signal are GFCI. The GFCI that works is over ten years old while > the outlet that won't charge is new if that makes a difference. The new > outlet that won't charge operates other loads just fine and I measure 121 > VAC with my Fluke. > > Thanks for your time, > > Dave Palumbo > Retired > Hyde Park, Vermont > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jun 23 15:20:11 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2025 12:20:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] charging a 2017 Chevy Volt off-grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've heard that EVs can be picky with lack of proper neutral to ground bond - might be worth checking that you have a good neutral to ground connection at your main panel and good GEC system. August On Mon, Jun 23, 2025 at 12:16 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I had a similar problem with a Tesla Charger and a golf cart battery > charger. Our problems were intermittent. The golf cart charger would balk > on GFCI receptacles, but not 'regular' ones. > Resolution was: we cleaned up all the ground wires, ground rod itself, > clamps, crimps, etc to bright fresh copper, and tightened all ground > terminal screws. Luckily in my case that was all it took. the problems went > away completely. > > On Mon, Jun 23, 2025 at 12:01 PM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> I've got a new neighbor here living in an off-grid home with a system of >> mine. She has a 2017 Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid. >> It draws 12A on high setting or 8 Amps at 120VAC. >> It charges fine off my homes VFX 3524OutBack but on her homes FX 2524 >> OutBack the charger indicator at the male cord plug end immediately goes >> Red and won't charge at all. Manufacturers label at the indicator light >> says it could be a ground problem. >> Both the outlet that does operate the charger fine and the one that gives >> the red signal are GFCI. The GFCI that works is over ten years old while >> the outlet that won't charge is new if that makes a difference. The new >> outlet that won't charge operates other loads just fine and I measure 121 >> VAC with my Fluke. >> >> Thanks for your time, >> >> Dave Palumbo >> Retired >> Hyde Park, Vermont >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Jun 23 15:21:09 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2025 12:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] charging a 2017 Chevy Volt off-grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1750706469.589715673@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img-0.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 151742 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jun 23 17:47:12 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2025 14:47:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] charging a 2017 Chevy Volt off-grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55a17339234640b5c0a25aab926ee2dd@sti.net> Check the outlet with an ammeter and a hair dryer. You need a load! Make sure the current is correct and not a neutral issue of the inverter or wiring. I have a hair dryer that I know the current on. I also use this in split phase to make sure the 2 legs add to the correct current. Test that there is not a parallel path or earthing issue. If there is you will get a lower than normal reading of current. * On the circuit, place one probe of a voltmeter on the active conductor (load side of the RCD or circuit breaker). * Place the other probe on the main panel neutral bar. You should see your 120vac. This will show neutral continuity. Weird ones... Good Luck ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-06-23 11:58 am, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wrenches, > > I've got a new neighbor here living in an off-grid home with a system > of mine. She has a 2017 Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid. > It draws 12A on high setting or 8 Amps at 120VAC. > It charges fine off my homes VFX 3524OutBack but on her homes FX 2524 > OutBack the charger indicator at the male cord plug end immediately > goes Red and won't charge at all. Manufacturers label at the indicator > light says it could be a ground problem. > Both the outlet that does operate the charger fine and the one that > gives the red signal are GFCI. The GFCI that works is over ten years > old while the outlet that won't charge is new if that makes a > difference. The new outlet that won't charge operates other loads just > fine and I measure 121 VAC with my Fluke. > > Thanks for your time, > > Dave Palumbo > Retired > Hyde Park, Vermont > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 25 02:58:40 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2025 02:58:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export Message-ID: We've had issues with Enphase systems "leaking" electricity back to the utility grid despite being in a no export grid profile. A local utility company gets all bent out of shape if there is even a watt-hour of reverse meter feed in detected. I understand why it isn't feasible to completely prevent this with Enphase's system architecture, even with a sizeable battery. Off-grid inverters that can't interact with the grid will obviously provide no export. My question is about hybrid inverters that are capable of grid sell, but programmed not to sell. Are they capable of truly Zero Export? The AIOs with grid pass-through don't seem likely to prevent reverse current flow, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure I would trust Sol-Ark to stop grid sell completely. Midnite AIO isn't well enough documented to understand how off grid mode works. The EG4 18Kpv has some cryptic settings that seem to imply it has truly a off grid mode, but I'm not sure how that works, either. If not AIOs, what about other system architectures? I find it hard to believe that a Powerwall 3 could operate in a non-grid-interactive manner. After all, it doesn't even support fully off-grid operation. An EG4 FlexBoss/GridBoss setup would naturally rely on current transformers to prevent grid export, which is a deal breaker I would think in any method to prevent grid selling. Other AC Coupled solutions like Franklin seemingly have no chance of preventing export entirely. It seems the only way for true no export to work is to invert battery power at all times, meaning no grid pass-through and no AC Coupling. The inverter/charger need to operate simply as a load from the grid perspective. Can any grid interactive inverter system programmatically change its mode entirely to prevent grid selling? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sue at midnitesolar.com Wed Jun 25 11:47:59 2025 From: Sue at midnitesolar.com (Sue Stankevitz) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2025 15:47:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For the MidNite MN15-12K-AIO it has 2 modes that pertain to this discussion Off Grid mode will never export out the input terminals at all no matter what Self Consumption will export out the input terminals to the Main Panel to try and zero the CT’s out. We have a setting you can adjust that will always draw this amount first from the grid to give the inverter some room to catch the over shoots when loads turn off. We find around 200 Watts is generally a good spot. For the MidNite MNROSIE7048RE it has 2 modes as well Grid Support- This allows Rosie to try and zero the incoming power from the grid any time the battery is above a set point you select. Rosie will always draw the first 150-200 watts from the grid to allow it to catch the over shoots when a load goes away VDC Connect / Disconnect- This mode allows Rosie to open its relay any time the battery is above a value you select eliminating ANY possibility of over shoot when loads go away. If you are working with a municipality where there is absolutely zero room for error it is best practice to use the more conservative approach of Off Grid Mode or VDC Connect/Disconnect to insure there will never be a chance of export however slim or minior. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DBE5B7.D307A0F0] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2025 2:59 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export We've had issues with Enphase systems "leaking" electricity back to the utility grid despite being in a no export grid profile. A local utility company gets all bent out of shape if there is even a watt-hour of reverse meter feed in detected. I understand why it isn't feasible to completely prevent this with Enphase's system architecture, even with a sizeable battery. Off-grid inverters that can't interact with the grid will obviously provide no export. My question is about hybrid inverters that are capable of grid sell, but programmed not to sell. Are they capable of truly Zero Export? The AIOs with grid pass-through don't seem likely to prevent reverse current flow, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure I would trust Sol-Ark to stop grid sell completely. Midnite AIO isn't well enough documented to understand how off grid mode works. The EG4 18Kpv has some cryptic settings that seem to imply it has truly a off grid mode, but I'm not sure how that works, either. If not AIOs, what about other system architectures? I find it hard to believe that a Powerwall 3 could operate in a non-grid-interactive manner. After all, it doesn't even support fully off-grid operation. An EG4 FlexBoss/GridBoss setup would naturally rely on current transformers to prevent grid export, which is a deal breaker I would think in any method to prevent grid selling. Other AC Coupled solutions like Franklin seemingly have no chance of preventing export entirely. It seems the only way for true no export to work is to invert battery power at all times, meaning no grid pass-through and no AC Coupling. The inverter/charger need to operate simply as a load from the grid perspective. Can any grid interactive inverter system programmatically change its mode entirely to prevent grid selling? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 25 12:11:33 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2025 12:11:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Sue. Your response is greatly appreciated. Can I ask how the Midnite AIO accomplishes this in Off-Grid mode? Does the inverter turn off grid-passthrough to the loads altogether and just offer grid voltage to the charger while inverting power from the batteries and solar to cover the loads? How does the inverter definitively "catch" excess solar production when a large load is dropped? I believe what you are saying is true, but I am interested in the mechanics behind this. I would like to share it with our local electric co-op's chief engineer. They are raising red flags with the local AHJ for homes that install solar panels that don't net meter, even if there is no intention of net metering. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Jun 25, 2025 at 11:48 AM Sue Stankevitz wrote: > For the MidNite MN15-12K-AIO it has 2 modes that pertain to this discussion > > > > Off Grid mode will never export out the input terminals at all no matter > what > > Self Consumption will export out the input terminals to the Main Panel to > try and zero the CT’s out. We have a setting you can adjust that will > always draw this amount first from the grid to give the inverter some room > to catch the over shoots when loads turn off. We find around 200 Watts is > generally a good spot. > > > > For the MidNite MNROSIE7048RE it has 2 modes as well > > Grid Support- This allows Rosie to try and zero the incoming power from > the grid any time the battery is above a set point you select. Rosie will > always draw the first 150-200 watts from the grid to allow it to catch the > over shoots when a load goes away > > VDC Connect / Disconnect- This mode allows Rosie to open its relay any > time the battery is above a value you select eliminating ANY possibility of > over shoot when loads go away. > > > > If you are working with a municipality where there is absolutely zero room > for error it is best practice to use the more conservative approach of Off > Grid Mode or VDC Connect/Disconnect to insure there will never be a chance > of export however slim or minior. > > Sue Stankevitz > MidNite Solar, Inc. > (360) 403-7207 (XT122) > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 25, 2025 2:59 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export > > > > We've had issues with Enphase systems "leaking" electricity back to the > utility grid despite being in a no export grid profile. A local utility > company gets all bent out of shape if there is even a watt-hour of reverse > meter feed in detected. I understand why it isn't feasible to completely > prevent this with Enphase's system architecture, even with a sizeable > battery. > > > > Off-grid inverters that can't interact with the grid will obviously > provide no export. > > > > My question is about hybrid inverters that are capable of grid sell, but > programmed not to sell. Are they capable of truly Zero Export? > > > > The AIOs with grid pass-through don't seem likely to prevent reverse > current flow, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure I would trust Sol-Ark to > stop grid sell completely. Midnite AIO isn't well enough documented to > understand how off grid mode works. The EG4 18Kpv has some cryptic settings > that seem to imply it has truly a off grid mode, but I'm not sure how that > works, either. > > > > If not AIOs, what about other system architectures? I find it hard to > believe that a Powerwall 3 could operate in a non-grid-interactive manner. > After all, it doesn't even support fully off-grid operation. An EG4 > FlexBoss/GridBoss setup would naturally rely on current transformers to > prevent grid export, which is a deal breaker I would think in any method to > prevent grid selling. Other AC Coupled solutions like Franklin seemingly > have no chance of preventing export entirely. > > > > It seems the only way for true no export to work is to invert battery > power at all times, meaning no grid pass-through and no AC Coupling. The > inverter/charger need to operate simply as a load from the grid > perspective. Can any grid interactive inverter system programmatically > change its mode entirely to prevent grid selling? > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: not available URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 14:04:44 2025 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2025 14:04:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Steel Grip SAMM Matts Message-ID: Wrenches, Wondering if anyone has ever tried these Steel Grip SAMM matts? Seems like a magnetic matt for working on metal roofs? We've tried the Cougar Paw magnetic boots and they are pretty good for lower slope, but always on the lookout for other products to help improve safety and mobility on metal roofs, and came upon that product. Figured I would holler here to see if anyone had any reviews (or thoughts on other similar products). Adam Adam Katzman (he/him) Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jun 25 18:59:58 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2025 15:59:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Permitting problem Message-ID: Friends: I am having a problem pulling a permit in our county jurisdiction. The project is a ground mount array with a low tilt angle resulting in an overall rack height less than 6’. The county checklist for solar permits says: "Engineering is required for arrays exceeding six feet above adjacent grade." I wanted to make sure this was the current criteria so I emailed a senior building official before I submitted my plans and received a reply stating the same criteria. I have done jobs in the county in the past with the same low height and not been required to provide engineering. The system we use is pretty robust. You can see a description here . The rail is SnapNRack 200 series. However for this project I am being denied a permit with this reason: By not using one of SnapNRack’s suggested support structures I am “altering” the “racking kit.” I am told if I provide a structural analysis a permit will be approved. The SnapNRack web site says this on the subject: “The system is fully compatible with various foundation types, including ground screws, grade beams, and standard pier concrete foundations." We all know that the word “including” does not preclude other possibilities. I even got one of the SnapNRack engineers to write an email saying alternative support structures are allowed. I have worked up the entire chain of command in San Luis Obispo County including the department director and the office of County Counsel with no change in status. I filed an appeal but the county refused to hear the appeal. I called my county supervisor to intervene but the building department is giving them the same reason. The logic is flawed but no one will believe me in spite of the documentation I have provided. Last time we had one of these taller than 6 feet the we had it engineered at a cost of $5,000. My contract covers me for the extra expense so the cost would be to the client. I don’t believe it is right for the customer to have to pay this extra expense. They are decent people who deserve better. I put together a web page to describe the entire interaction. It is here . I think this is wrong and my principals are not allowing me to give in. This is a pattern with this building department. The last time this happened I fought for months and finally won. I embarrassed them and I think the department is trying to punish me. I am looking for an attorney but so far all of them are too busy to take my case. Have anyone of you experienced anything like this? Anyone have any advice? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Jun 25 19:12:41 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2025 16:12:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Permitting problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For this type of interaction I recommend Engineerinc.com for a Structural stamp. I’ve found them to be very reasonable On Wed, Jun 25, 2025 at 4:03 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am having a problem pulling a permit in our county jurisdiction. The > project is a ground mount array with a low tilt angle resulting in an > overall rack height less than 6’. The county checklist for solar permits > says: "Engineering is required for arrays exceeding six feet above adjacent > grade." I wanted to make sure this was the current criteria so I emailed a > senior building official before I submitted my plans and received a reply > stating the same criteria. > > > > I have done jobs in the county in the past with the same low height and > not been required to provide engineering. The system we use is pretty > robust. You can see a description here > . > The rail is SnapNRack 200 series. > > > > However for this project I am being denied a permit with this reason: By > not using one of SnapNRack’s suggested support structures I am “altering” > the “racking kit.” I am told if I provide a structural analysis a permit > will be approved. > > > > The SnapNRack web site says this on the subject: “The system is fully > compatible with various foundation types, including > > ground screws, grade beams, and standard pier concrete foundations." We > all know that the word “including” does not preclude other possibilities. > I even got one of the SnapNRack engineers to write an email saying > alternative support structures are allowed. > > > > I have worked up the entire chain of command in San Luis Obispo County > including the department director and the office of County Counsel with no > change in status. I filed an appeal but the county refused to hear the > appeal. > > > > I called my county supervisor to intervene but the building department is > giving them the same reason. The logic is flawed but no one will believe > me in spite of the documentation I have provided. > > > > Last time we had one of these taller than 6 feet the we had it engineered > at a cost of $5,000. My contract covers me for the extra expense so the > cost would be to the client. I don’t believe it is right for the customer > to have to pay this extra expense. They are decent people who deserve > better. > > > > I put together a web page to describe the entire interaction. It is here > > . > > > > I think this is wrong and my principals are not allowing me to give in. > This is a pattern with this building department. The last time this > happened I fought for months and finally won. I embarrassed them and I > think the department is trying to punish me. > > > > I am looking for an attorney but so far all of them are too busy to take > my case. > > > > Have anyone of you experienced anything like this? Anyone have any advice? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jun 25 19:28:59 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2025 16:28:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Permitting problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ad60a729bb9f6d3a382c5fa49205c14@sti.net> Nice install in the link! "However for this project I am being denied a permit with this reason: By not using one of SnapNRack's suggested support structures I am "altering" the "racking kit." I am told if I provide a structural analysis a permit will be approved." What is snapnracks support structure that you are not using? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [4]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [5] [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-06-25 3:59 pm, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > Friends: > > I am having a problem pulling a permit in our county jurisdiction. The > project is a ground mount array with a low tilt angle resulting in an > overall rack height less than 6'. The county checklist for solar > permits says: "Engineering is required for arrays exceeding six feet > above adjacent grade." I wanted to make sure this was the current > criteria so I emailed a senior building official before I submitted my > plans and received a reply stating the same criteria. > > I have done jobs in the county in the past with the same low height and > not been required to provide engineering. The system we use is pretty > robust. You can see a description here [1]. The rail is SnapNRack 200 > series. > > However for this project I am being denied a permit with this reason: > By not using one of SnapNRack's suggested support structures I am > "altering" the "racking kit." I am told if I provide a structural > analysis a permit will be approved. > > The SnapNRack web site says this on the subject: "The system is fully > compatible with various foundation types, including > > ground screws, grade beams, and standard pier concrete foundations." > We all know that the word "including" does not preclude other > possibilities. I even got one of the SnapNRack engineers to write an > email saying alternative support structures are allowed. > > I have worked up the entire chain of command in San Luis Obispo County > including the department director and the office of County Counsel with > no change in status. I filed an appeal but the county refused to hear > the appeal. > > I called my county supervisor to intervene but the building department > is giving them the same reason. The logic is flawed but no one will > believe me in spite of the documentation I have provided. > > Last time we had one of these taller than 6 feet the we had it > engineered at a cost of $5,000. My contract covers me for the extra > expense so the cost would be to the client. I don't believe it is > right for the customer to have to pay this extra expense. They are > decent people who deserve better. > > I put together a web page to describe the entire interaction. It is > here [2]. > > I think this is wrong and my principals are not allowing me to give in. > This is a pattern with this building department. The last time this > happened I fought for months and finally won. I embarrassed them and I > think the department is trying to punish me. > > I am looking for an attorney but so far all of them are too busy to > take my case. > > Have anyone of you experienced anything like this? Anyone have any > advice? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [3] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/DrivenPipe/DrivenPipe.html [2] https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/41_County_of_SLO/County_of_SLO.html [3] http://www.millersolar.com/ [4] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jun 25 19:31:48 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2025 16:31:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Permitting problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2982b807427131c4c120682cfeaa492f@mail.gmail.com> Thanks David, but you missed the point. I followed the published criteria and I should not have to provide engineering. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* david quattro [mailto:david at quattrosolar.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, June 25, 2025 4:13 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Permitting problem For this type of interaction I recommend Engineerinc.com for a Structural stamp. I’ve found them to be very reasonable On Wed, Jun 25, 2025 at 4:03 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Friends: I am having a problem pulling a permit in our county jurisdiction. The project is a ground mount array with a low tilt angle resulting in an overall rack height less than 6’. The county checklist for solar permits says: "Engineering is required for arrays exceeding six feet above adjacent grade." I wanted to make sure this was the current criteria so I emailed a senior building official before I submitted my plans and received a reply stating the same criteria. I have done jobs in the county in the past with the same low height and not been required to provide engineering. The system we use is pretty robust. You can see a description here . The rail is SnapNRack 200 series. However for this project I am being denied a permit with this reason: By not using one of SnapNRack’s suggested support structures I am “altering” the “racking kit.” I am told if I provide a structural analysis a permit will be approved. The SnapNRack web site says this on the subject: “The system is fully compatible with various foundation types, including ground screws, grade beams, and standard pier concrete foundations." We all know that the word “including” does not preclude other possibilities. I even got one of the SnapNRack engineers to write an email saying alternative support structures are allowed. I have worked up the entire chain of command in San Luis Obispo County including the department director and the office of County Counsel with no change in status. I filed an appeal but the county refused to hear the appeal. I called my county supervisor to intervene but the building department is giving them the same reason. The logic is flawed but no one will believe me in spite of the documentation I have provided. Last time we had one of these taller than 6 feet the we had it engineered at a cost of $5,000. My contract covers me for the extra expense so the cost would be to the client. I don’t believe it is right for the customer to have to pay this extra expense. They are decent people who deserve better. I put together a web page to describe the entire interaction. It is here . I think this is wrong and my principals are not allowing me to give in. This is a pattern with this building department. The last time this happened I fought for months and finally won. I embarrassed them and I think the department is trying to punish me. I am looking for an attorney but so far all of them are too busy to take my case. Have anyone of you experienced anything like this? Anyone have any advice? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jun 25 19:35:39 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2025 16:35:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Permitting problem In-Reply-To: <2ad60a729bb9f6d3a382c5fa49205c14@sti.net> References: <2ad60a729bb9f6d3a382c5fa49205c14@sti.net> Message-ID: Thank you. The SnapNRack suggested methods: Poured footings, bond beam or screw-in anchor. The system I created is demonstrably superior to these methods. It is quicker, cheaper, has less environmental impacts and can adapt better to uneven ground. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 *www.millersolar.com* CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar [mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net] *Sent:* Wednesday, June 25, 2025 4:29 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Permitting problem Nice install in the link! "However for this project I am being denied a permit with this reason: By not using one of SnapNRack's suggested support structures I am "altering" the "racking kit." I am told if I provide a structural analysis a permit will be approved." What is snapnracks support structure that you are not using? *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* *"we go where powerlines don't"* * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * *text 209 813 0060* On 2025-06-25 3:59 pm, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: Friends: I am having a problem pulling a permit in our county jurisdiction. The project is a ground mount array with a low tilt angle resulting in an overall rack height less than 6'. The county checklist for solar permits says: "Engineering is required for arrays exceeding six feet above adjacent grade." I wanted to make sure this was the current criteria so I emailed a senior building official before I submitted my plans and received a reply stating the same criteria. I have done jobs in the county in the past with the same low height and not been required to provide engineering. The system we use is pretty robust. You can see a description *here* . The rail is SnapNRack 200 series. However for this project I am being denied a permit with this reason: By not using one of SnapNRack's suggested support structures I am "altering" the "racking kit." I am told if I provide a structural analysis a permit will be approved. The SnapNRack web site says this on the subject: "The system is fully compatible with various foundation types, including ground screws, grade beams, and standard pier concrete foundations." We all know that the word "including" does not preclude other possibilities. I even got one of the SnapNRack engineers to write an email saying alternative support structures are allowed. I have worked up the entire chain of command in San Luis Obispo County including the department director and the office of County Counsel with no change in status. I filed an appeal but the county refused to hear the appeal. I called my county supervisor to intervene but the building department is giving them the same reason. The logic is flawed but no one will believe me in spite of the documentation I have provided. Last time we had one of these taller than 6 feet the we had it engineered at a cost of $5,000. My contract covers me for the extra expense so the cost would be to the client. I don't believe it is right for the customer to have to pay this extra expense. They are decent people who deserve better. I put together a web page to describe the entire interaction. It is *here* . I think this is wrong and my principals are not allowing me to give in. This is a pattern with this building department. The last time this happened I fought for months and finally won. I embarrassed them and I think the department is trying to punish me. I am looking for an attorney but so far all of them are too busy to take my case. Have anyone of you experienced anything like this? Anyone have any advice? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 *www.millersolar.com* CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: *http://re-wrenches.org* List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* Change listserver email address & settings: *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: *https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/* *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* List rules & etiquette: *http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* Check out or update participant bios: *http://www.members.re-wrenches.org* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 22:57:59 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2025 19:57:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Permitting problem In-Reply-To: References: <2ad60a729bb9f6d3a382c5fa49205c14@sti.net> Message-ID: Wrenches, William, what is it that you are "altering" can you avoid altering the manufactures design to get it through the office. Fun times, On Wed, Jun 25, 2025, 4:46 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thank you. > > > > The SnapNRack suggested methods: Poured footings, bond beam or screw-in > anchor. The system I created is demonstrably superior to these methods. > It is quicker, cheaper, has less environmental impacts and can adapt better > to uneven ground. > > > > Wm > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > *www.millersolar.com* > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar [mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net] > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 25, 2025 4:29 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Permitting problem > > > > Nice install in the link! > > "However for this project I am being denied a permit with this reason: By > not using one of SnapNRack's suggested support structures I am "altering" > the "racking kit." I am told if I provide a structural analysis a permit > will be approved." > > > > What is snapnracks support structure that you are not using? > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > > > On 2025-06-25 3:59 pm, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I am having a problem pulling a permit in our county jurisdiction. The > project is a ground mount array with a low tilt angle resulting in an > overall rack height less than 6'. The county checklist for solar permits > says: "Engineering is required for arrays exceeding six feet above adjacent > grade." I wanted to make sure this was the current criteria so I emailed a > senior building official before I submitted my plans and received a reply > stating the same criteria. > > > > I have done jobs in the county in the past with the same low height and > not been required to provide engineering. The system we use is pretty > robust. You can see a description *here* > . > The rail is SnapNRack 200 series. > > > > However for this project I am being denied a permit with this reason: By > not using one of SnapNRack's suggested support structures I am "altering" > the "racking kit." I am told if I provide a structural analysis a permit > will be approved. > > > > The SnapNRack web site says this on the subject: "The system is fully > compatible with various foundation types, including > > ground screws, grade beams, and standard pier concrete foundations." We > all know that the word "including" does not preclude other possibilities. > I even got one of the SnapNRack engineers to write an email saying > alternative support structures are allowed. > > > > I have worked up the entire chain of command in San Luis Obispo County > including the department director and the office of County Counsel with no > change in status. I filed an appeal but the county refused to hear the > appeal. > > > > I called my county supervisor to intervene but the building department is > giving them the same reason. The logic is flawed but no one will believe > me in spite of the documentation I have provided. > > > > Last time we had one of these taller than 6 feet the we had it engineered > at a cost of $5,000. My contract covers me for the extra expense so the > cost would be to the client. I don't believe it is right for the customer > to have to pay this extra expense. They are decent people who deserve > better. > > > > I put together a web page to describe the entire interaction. It is > *here* > > . > > > > I think this is wrong and my principals are not allowing me to give in. > This is a pattern with this building department. The last time this > happened I fought for months and finally won. I embarrassed them and I > think the department is trying to punish me. > > > > I am looking for an attorney but so far all of them are too busy to take > my case. > > > > Have anyone of you experienced anything like this? Anyone have any advice? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > *www.millersolar.com* > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: *http://re-wrenches.org* > > > List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > *https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/* > > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > > List rules & etiquette: > *http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > > Check out or update participant bios: > *http://www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jun 25 23:22:02 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2025 20:22:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Permitting problem In-Reply-To: References: <2ad60a729bb9f6d3a382c5fa49205c14@sti.net> Message-ID: I am not altering anything. I am just using an alternate foundation framework. The building department conjured up the term “altered”. They must think you are required to buy some kit with the pipes, connectors and concrete. In reality you can use one of the three recommended systems or create your own. I would not trust every installer to create a solid support structure. I do trust what we are doing. The point is the building department said only racks over 6 feet require engineering and now they are going against what they published. That makes it impossible to account for all costs during the bid process. We can’t apply for a permit first and then bid afterwards. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Wed, Jun 25, 2025 at 7:58 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches, William, what is it that you are "altering" can you avoid > altering the manufactures design to get it through the office. > Fun times, > > On Wed, Jun 25, 2025, 4:46 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Thank you. >> >> >> >> The SnapNRack suggested methods: Poured footings, bond beam or screw-in >> anchor. The system I created is demonstrably superior to these methods. >> It is quicker, cheaper, has less environmental impacts and can adapt better >> to uneven ground. >> >> >> >> Wm >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> *www.millersolar.com* >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar [mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net] >> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 25, 2025 4:29 PM >> *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Permitting problem >> >> >> >> Nice install in the link! >> >> "However for this project I am being denied a permit with this reason: >> By not using one of SnapNRack's suggested support structures I am >> "altering" the "racking kit." I am told if I provide a structural analysis >> a permit will be approved." >> >> >> >> What is snapnracks support structure that you are not using? >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >> >> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >> >> * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * >> >> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >> >> *text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> >> On 2025-06-25 3:59 pm, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I am having a problem pulling a permit in our county jurisdiction. The >> project is a ground mount array with a low tilt angle resulting in an >> overall rack height less than 6'. The county checklist for solar permits >> says: "Engineering is required for arrays exceeding six feet above adjacent >> grade." I wanted to make sure this was the current criteria so I emailed a >> senior building official before I submitted my plans and received a reply >> stating the same criteria. >> >> >> >> I have done jobs in the county in the past with the same low height and >> not been required to provide engineering. The system we use is pretty >> robust. You can see a description *here* >> . >> The rail is SnapNRack 200 series. >> >> >> >> However for this project I am being denied a permit with this reason: By >> not using one of SnapNRack's suggested support structures I am "altering" >> the "racking kit." I am told if I provide a structural analysis a permit >> will be approved. >> >> >> >> The SnapNRack web site says this on the subject: "The system is fully >> compatible with various foundation types, including >> >> ground screws, grade beams, and standard pier concrete foundations." We >> all know that the word "including" does not preclude other possibilities. >> I even got one of the SnapNRack engineers to write an email saying >> alternative support structures are allowed. >> >> >> >> I have worked up the entire chain of command in San Luis Obispo County >> including the department director and the office of County Counsel with no >> change in status. I filed an appeal but the county refused to hear the >> appeal. >> >> >> >> I called my county supervisor to intervene but the building department is >> giving them the same reason. The logic is flawed but no one will believe >> me in spite of the documentation I have provided. >> >> >> >> Last time we had one of these taller than 6 feet the we had it engineered >> at a cost of $5,000. My contract covers me for the extra expense so the >> cost would be to the client. I don't believe it is right for the customer >> to have to pay this extra expense. They are decent people who deserve >> better. >> >> >> >> I put together a web page to describe the entire interaction. It is >> *here* >> >> . >> >> >> >> I think this is wrong and my principals are not allowing me to give in. >> This is a pattern with this building department. The last time this >> happened I fought for months and finally won. I embarrassed them and I >> think the department is trying to punish me. >> >> >> >> I am looking for an attorney but so far all of them are too busy to take >> my case. >> >> >> >> Have anyone of you experienced anything like this? Anyone have any advice? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> *www.millersolar.com* >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: *http://re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> *https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/* >> >> *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> *http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> *http://www.members.re-wrenches.org* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sue at midnitesolar.com Thu Jun 26 07:46:26 2025 From: Sue at midnitesolar.com (Sue Stankevitz) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2025 11:46:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In a self-consumption style situation an inverter sells to drop the usage to close to 0 watts. It’s a controlled sell as not to export. The inverter “buys” power from the grid at a low rate to power the first 200w or so of the load. This is designed to prevent accidental selling during large load fluctuations but is not an absolute guarantee against very small very short duration sells. In Off Grid mode it does not sell it just makes power on the AC Out side. Similar to what you may be familiar with in the old Outback or Magnum inverters. If the AC in is present it passes through and runs the loads if its not present the inverter powers the loads. To complement this for a self use style system you run the grid into the Generator in not AC in and program the generator to start and stop at your desired levels and then the AIO will ignore the grid when the battery is above your programmed set points similar to the Rosie in VDC disconnect/connect Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DBE5E8.B221E220] From: Jason Szumlanski Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2025 12:12 PM To: Sue Stankevitz Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export Thanks, Sue. Your response is greatly appreciated. Can I ask how the Midnite AIO accomplishes this in Off-Grid mode? Does the inverter turn off grid-passthrough to the loads altogether and just offer grid voltage to the charger while inverting power from the batteries and solar to cover the loads? How does the inverter definitively "catch" excess solar production when a large load is dropped? I believe what you are saying is true, but I am interested in the mechanics behind this. I would like to share it with our local electric co-op's chief engineer. They are raising red flags with the local AHJ for homes that install solar panels that don't net meter, even if there is no intention of net metering. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Jun 25, 2025 at 11:48 AM Sue Stankevitz > wrote: For the MidNite MN15-12K-AIO it has 2 modes that pertain to this discussion Off Grid mode will never export out the input terminals at all no matter what Self Consumption will export out the input terminals to the Main Panel to try and zero the CT’s out. We have a setting you can adjust that will always draw this amount first from the grid to give the inverter some room to catch the over shoots when loads turn off. We find around 200 Watts is generally a good spot. For the MidNite MNROSIE7048RE it has 2 modes as well Grid Support- This allows Rosie to try and zero the incoming power from the grid any time the battery is above a set point you select. Rosie will always draw the first 150-200 watts from the grid to allow it to catch the over shoots when a load goes away VDC Connect / Disconnect- This mode allows Rosie to open its relay any time the battery is above a value you select eliminating ANY possibility of over shoot when loads go away. If you are working with a municipality where there is absolutely zero room for error it is best practice to use the more conservative approach of Off Grid Mode or VDC Connect/Disconnect to insure there will never be a chance of export however slim or minior. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DBE5E8.B221E220] From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2025 2:59 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export We've had issues with Enphase systems "leaking" electricity back to the utility grid despite being in a no export grid profile. A local utility company gets all bent out of shape if there is even a watt-hour of reverse meter feed in detected. I understand why it isn't feasible to completely prevent this with Enphase's system architecture, even with a sizeable battery. Off-grid inverters that can't interact with the grid will obviously provide no export. My question is about hybrid inverters that are capable of grid sell, but programmed not to sell. Are they capable of truly Zero Export? The AIOs with grid pass-through don't seem likely to prevent reverse current flow, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure I would trust Sol-Ark to stop grid sell completely. Midnite AIO isn't well enough documented to understand how off grid mode works. The EG4 18Kpv has some cryptic settings that seem to imply it has truly a off grid mode, but I'm not sure how that works, either. If not AIOs, what about other system architectures? I find it hard to believe that a Powerwall 3 could operate in a non-grid-interactive manner. After all, it doesn't even support fully off-grid operation. An EG4 FlexBoss/GridBoss setup would naturally rely on current transformers to prevent grid export, which is a deal breaker I would think in any method to prevent grid selling. Other AC Coupled solutions like Franklin seemingly have no chance of preventing export entirely. It seems the only way for true no export to work is to invert battery power at all times, meaning no grid pass-through and no AC Coupling. The inverter/charger need to operate simply as a load from the grid perspective. Can any grid interactive inverter system programmatically change its mode entirely to prevent grid selling? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Thu Jun 26 08:43:42 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2025 02:43:42 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aloha All, Thank you Sue for the detailed explanation of the self-consumption and off-grid operating modes of the AIO. We have a follow-up question regarding the off-grid mode operation that we'd like to clarify : In off-grid mode, what specific mechanical or electrical mechanisms absolutely prevent any export to the grid side? Yet (if I understand your email correctly), still allows for grid passthrough. This information will help us when speaking with AHJs and utility engineers who need to understand the export prevention safeguards for permitting and interconnection approval, plus I am just super interested in how it works! Thank you! Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 1:47 AM Sue Stankevitz via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > In a self-consumption style situation an inverter sells to drop the usage > to close to 0 watts. It’s a controlled sell as not to export. The inverter > “buys” power from the grid at a low rate to power the first 200w or so of > the load. This is designed to prevent accidental selling during large load > fluctuations but is not an absolute guarantee against very small very short > duration sells. > > > > In Off Grid mode it does not sell it just makes power on the AC Out side. > Similar to what you may be familiar with in the old Outback or Magnum > inverters. If the AC in is present it passes through and runs the loads if > its not present the inverter powers the loads. > > > To complement this for a self use style system you run the grid into the > Generator in not AC in and program the generator to start and stop at your > desired levels and then the AIO will ignore the grid when the battery is > above your programmed set points similar to the Rosie in VDC > disconnect/connect > > > > Sue Stankevitz > MidNite Solar, Inc. > (360) 403-7207 (XT122) > > > > *From:* Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 25, 2025 12:12 PM > *To:* Sue Stankevitz > *Cc:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export > > > > Thanks, Sue. Your response is greatly appreciated. > > > > Can I ask how the Midnite AIO accomplishes this in Off-Grid mode? Does the > inverter turn off grid-passthrough to the loads altogether and just offer > grid voltage to the charger while inverting power from the batteries and > solar to cover the loads? How does the inverter definitively "catch" excess > solar production when a large load is dropped? > > > I believe what you are saying is true, but I am interested in the > mechanics behind this. I would like to share it with our local electric > co-op's chief engineer. They are raising red flags with the local AHJ for > homes that install solar panels that don't net meter, even if there is no > intention of net metering. > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 25, 2025 at 11:48 AM Sue Stankevitz > wrote: > > For the MidNite MN15-12K-AIO it has 2 modes that pertain to this discussion > > > > Off Grid mode will never export out the input terminals at all no matter > what > > Self Consumption will export out the input terminals to the Main Panel to > try and zero the CT’s out. We have a setting you can adjust that will > always draw this amount first from the grid to give the inverter some room > to catch the over shoots when loads turn off. We find around 200 Watts is > generally a good spot. > > > > For the MidNite MNROSIE7048RE it has 2 modes as well > > Grid Support- This allows Rosie to try and zero the incoming power from > the grid any time the battery is above a set point you select. Rosie will > always draw the first 150-200 watts from the grid to allow it to catch the > over shoots when a load goes away > > VDC Connect / Disconnect- This mode allows Rosie to open its relay any > time the battery is above a value you select eliminating ANY possibility of > over shoot when loads go away. > > > > If you are working with a municipality where there is absolutely zero room > for error it is best practice to use the more conservative approach of Off > Grid Mode or VDC Connect/Disconnect to insure there will never be a chance > of export however slim or minior. > > Sue Stankevitz > MidNite Solar, Inc. > (360) 403-7207 (XT122) > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 25, 2025 2:59 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export > > > > We've had issues with Enphase systems "leaking" electricity back to the > utility grid despite being in a no export grid profile. A local utility > company gets all bent out of shape if there is even a watt-hour of reverse > meter feed in detected. I understand why it isn't feasible to completely > prevent this with Enphase's system architecture, even with a sizeable > battery. > > > > Off-grid inverters that can't interact with the grid will obviously > provide no export. > > > > My question is about hybrid inverters that are capable of grid sell, but > programmed not to sell. Are they capable of truly Zero Export? > > > > The AIOs with grid pass-through don't seem likely to prevent reverse > current flow, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure I would trust Sol-Ark to > stop grid sell completely. Midnite AIO isn't well enough documented to > understand how off grid mode works. The EG4 18Kpv has some cryptic settings > that seem to imply it has truly a off grid mode, but I'm not sure how that > works, either. > > > > If not AIOs, what about other system architectures? I find it hard to > believe that a Powerwall 3 could operate in a non-grid-interactive manner. > After all, it doesn't even support fully off-grid operation. An EG4 > FlexBoss/GridBoss setup would naturally rely on current transformers to > prevent grid export, which is a deal breaker I would think in any method to > prevent grid selling. Other AC Coupled solutions like Franklin seemingly > have no chance of preventing export entirely. > > > > It seems the only way for true no export to work is to invert battery > power at all times, meaning no grid pass-through and no AC Coupling. The > inverter/charger need to operate simply as a load from the grid > perspective. Can any grid interactive inverter system programmatically > change its mode entirely to prevent grid selling? > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Sue at midnitesolar.com Thu Jun 26 08:54:05 2025 From: Sue at midnitesolar.com (Sue Stankevitz) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2025 12:54:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In Offgrid mode the inverter is not in a software function of selling like it is in self consumption. It syncs to the grid and follows the grid not the other way around thus the hardware is incapable of selling. Selling requires the inverter to try and push the voltage higher than the grid to create energy flow. So there is no hardware prevention its strictly software, Just the same as the Outback, Magnum, Schneider etc. When in off grid mode it follows the grid vs in sell mode it drives the grid. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DBE677.DDCDA460] From: Lou Russo Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2025 8:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski ; Sue Stankevitz Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export Aloha All, Thank you Sue for the detailed explanation of the self-consumption and off-grid operating modes of the AIO. We have a follow-up question regarding the off-grid mode operation that we'd like to clarify : In off-grid mode, what specific mechanical or electrical mechanisms absolutely prevent any export to the grid side? Yet (if I understand your email correctly), still allows for grid passthrough. This information will help us when speaking with AHJs and utility engineers who need to understand the export prevention safeguards for permitting and interconnection approval, plus I am just super interested in how it works! Thank you! Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 1:47 AM Sue Stankevitz via RE-wrenches > wrote: In a self-consumption style situation an inverter sells to drop the usage to close to 0 watts. It’s a controlled sell as not to export. The inverter “buys” power from the grid at a low rate to power the first 200w or so of the load. This is designed to prevent accidental selling during large load fluctuations but is not an absolute guarantee against very small very short duration sells. In Off Grid mode it does not sell it just makes power on the AC Out side. Similar to what you may be familiar with in the old Outback or Magnum inverters. If the AC in is present it passes through and runs the loads if its not present the inverter powers the loads. To complement this for a self use style system you run the grid into the Generator in not AC in and program the generator to start and stop at your desired levels and then the AIO will ignore the grid when the battery is above your programmed set points similar to the Rosie in VDC disconnect/connect Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DBE677.DDCDA460] From: Jason Szumlanski > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2025 12:12 PM To: Sue Stankevitz > Cc: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export Thanks, Sue. Your response is greatly appreciated. Can I ask how the Midnite AIO accomplishes this in Off-Grid mode? Does the inverter turn off grid-passthrough to the loads altogether and just offer grid voltage to the charger while inverting power from the batteries and solar to cover the loads? How does the inverter definitively "catch" excess solar production when a large load is dropped? I believe what you are saying is true, but I am interested in the mechanics behind this. I would like to share it with our local electric co-op's chief engineer. They are raising red flags with the local AHJ for homes that install solar panels that don't net meter, even if there is no intention of net metering. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Jun 25, 2025 at 11:48 AM Sue Stankevitz > wrote: For the MidNite MN15-12K-AIO it has 2 modes that pertain to this discussion Off Grid mode will never export out the input terminals at all no matter what Self Consumption will export out the input terminals to the Main Panel to try and zero the CT’s out. We have a setting you can adjust that will always draw this amount first from the grid to give the inverter some room to catch the over shoots when loads turn off. We find around 200 Watts is generally a good spot. For the MidNite MNROSIE7048RE it has 2 modes as well Grid Support- This allows Rosie to try and zero the incoming power from the grid any time the battery is above a set point you select. Rosie will always draw the first 150-200 watts from the grid to allow it to catch the over shoots when a load goes away VDC Connect / Disconnect- This mode allows Rosie to open its relay any time the battery is above a value you select eliminating ANY possibility of over shoot when loads go away. If you are working with a municipality where there is absolutely zero room for error it is best practice to use the more conservative approach of Off Grid Mode or VDC Connect/Disconnect to insure there will never be a chance of export however slim or minior. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DBE677.DDCDA460] From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2025 2:59 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export We've had issues with Enphase systems "leaking" electricity back to the utility grid despite being in a no export grid profile. A local utility company gets all bent out of shape if there is even a watt-hour of reverse meter feed in detected. I understand why it isn't feasible to completely prevent this with Enphase's system architecture, even with a sizeable battery. Off-grid inverters that can't interact with the grid will obviously provide no export. My question is about hybrid inverters that are capable of grid sell, but programmed not to sell. Are they capable of truly Zero Export? The AIOs with grid pass-through don't seem likely to prevent reverse current flow, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure I would trust Sol-Ark to stop grid sell completely. Midnite AIO isn't well enough documented to understand how off grid mode works. The EG4 18Kpv has some cryptic settings that seem to imply it has truly a off grid mode, but I'm not sure how that works, either. If not AIOs, what about other system architectures? I find it hard to believe that a Powerwall 3 could operate in a non-grid-interactive manner. After all, it doesn't even support fully off-grid operation. An EG4 FlexBoss/GridBoss setup would naturally rely on current transformers to prevent grid export, which is a deal breaker I would think in any method to prevent grid selling. Other AC Coupled solutions like Franklin seemingly have no chance of preventing export entirely. It seems the only way for true no export to work is to invert battery power at all times, meaning no grid pass-through and no AC Coupling. The inverter/charger need to operate simply as a load from the grid perspective. Can any grid interactive inverter system programmatically change its mode entirely to prevent grid selling? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 26 08:59:32 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2025 08:59:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have this exact same question. This is critically important to understand the mechanism involved to prevent backfeed. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jun 26, 2025, 8:44 AM Lou Russo wrote: > Aloha All, > > Thank you Sue for the detailed explanation of the self-consumption and > off-grid operating modes of the AIO. > We have a follow-up question regarding the off-grid mode operation that > we'd like to clarify : > > In off-grid mode, what specific mechanical or electrical mechanisms > absolutely prevent any export to the grid side? Yet (if I understand your > email correctly), still allows for grid passthrough. > > This information will help us when speaking with AHJs and utility > engineers who need to understand the export prevention safeguards for > permitting and interconnection approval, plus I am just super interested in > how it works! > > Thank you! > > Aloha, > Lou Russo > Spree Solar Systems LLC > C-34322 > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 1:47 AM Sue Stankevitz via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> In a self-consumption style situation an inverter sells to drop the usage >> to close to 0 watts. It’s a controlled sell as not to export. The inverter >> “buys” power from the grid at a low rate to power the first 200w or so of >> the load. This is designed to prevent accidental selling during large load >> fluctuations but is not an absolute guarantee against very small very short >> duration sells. >> >> >> >> In Off Grid mode it does not sell it just makes power on the AC Out side. >> Similar to what you may be familiar with in the old Outback or Magnum >> inverters. If the AC in is present it passes through and runs the loads if >> its not present the inverter powers the loads. >> >> >> To complement this for a self use style system you run the grid into the >> Generator in not AC in and program the generator to start and stop at your >> desired levels and then the AIO will ignore the grid when the battery is >> above your programmed set points similar to the Rosie in VDC >> disconnect/connect >> >> >> >> Sue Stankevitz >> MidNite Solar, Inc. >> (360) 403-7207 (XT122) >> >> >> >> *From:* Jason Szumlanski >> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 25, 2025 12:12 PM >> *To:* Sue Stankevitz >> *Cc:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export >> >> >> >> Thanks, Sue. Your response is greatly appreciated. >> >> >> >> Can I ask how the Midnite AIO accomplishes this in Off-Grid mode? Does >> the inverter turn off grid-passthrough to the loads altogether and just >> offer grid voltage to the charger while inverting power from the batteries >> and solar to cover the loads? How does the inverter definitively "catch" >> excess solar production when a large load is dropped? >> >> >> I believe what you are saying is true, but I am interested in the >> mechanics behind this. I would like to share it with our local electric >> co-op's chief engineer. They are raising red flags with the local AHJ for >> homes that install solar panels that don't net meter, even if there is no >> intention of net metering. >> >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 25, 2025 at 11:48 AM Sue Stankevitz >> wrote: >> >> For the MidNite MN15-12K-AIO it has 2 modes that pertain to this >> discussion >> >> >> >> Off Grid mode will never export out the input terminals at all no matter >> what >> >> Self Consumption will export out the input terminals to the Main Panel to >> try and zero the CT’s out. We have a setting you can adjust that will >> always draw this amount first from the grid to give the inverter some room >> to catch the over shoots when loads turn off. We find around 200 Watts is >> generally a good spot. >> >> >> >> For the MidNite MNROSIE7048RE it has 2 modes as well >> >> Grid Support- This allows Rosie to try and zero the incoming power from >> the grid any time the battery is above a set point you select. Rosie will >> always draw the first 150-200 watts from the grid to allow it to catch the >> over shoots when a load goes away >> >> VDC Connect / Disconnect- This mode allows Rosie to open its relay any >> time the battery is above a value you select eliminating ANY possibility of >> over shoot when loads go away. >> >> >> >> If you are working with a municipality where there is absolutely zero >> room for error it is best practice to use the more conservative approach of >> Off Grid Mode or VDC Connect/Disconnect to insure there will never be a >> chance of export however slim or minior. >> >> Sue Stankevitz >> MidNite Solar, Inc. >> (360) 403-7207 (XT122) >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 25, 2025 2:59 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Truly Zero Export >> >> >> >> We've had issues with Enphase systems "leaking" electricity back to the >> utility grid despite being in a no export grid profile. A local utility >> company gets all bent out of shape if there is even a watt-hour of reverse >> meter feed in detected. I understand why it isn't feasible to completely >> prevent this with Enphase's system architecture, even with a sizeable >> battery. >> >> >> >> Off-grid inverters that can't interact with the grid will obviously >> provide no export. >> >> >> >> My question is about hybrid inverters that are capable of grid sell, but >> programmed not to sell. Are they capable of truly Zero Export? >> >> >> >> The AIOs with grid pass-through don't seem likely to prevent reverse >> current flow, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure I would trust Sol-Ark to >> stop grid sell completely. Midnite AIO isn't well enough documented to >> understand how off grid mode works. The EG4 18Kpv has some cryptic settings >> that seem to imply it has truly a off grid mode, but I'm not sure how that >> works, either. >> >> >> >> If not AIOs, what about other system architectures? I find it hard to >> believe that a Powerwall 3 could operate in a non-grid-interactive manner. >> After all, it doesn't even support fully off-grid operation. An EG4 >> FlexBoss/GridBoss setup would naturally rely on current transformers to >> prevent grid export, which is a deal breaker I would think in any method to >> prevent grid selling. Other AC Coupled solutions like Franklin seemingly >> have no chance of preventing export entirely. >> >> >> >> It seems the only way for true no export to work is to invert battery >> power at all times, meaning no grid pass-through and no AC Coupling. The >> inverter/charger need to operate simply as a load from the grid >> perspective. Can any grid interactive inverter system programmatically >> change its mode entirely to prevent grid selling? >> >> >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Jun 26 09:40:36 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2025 09:40:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Permitting problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4d47dcb1-ddd7-4c3b-a20e-f4b115cdf459@entech-engineering.com> I have been down this road.  I have designed many structures in a hurricane prone area at the request of the local building official, using my PE stamp as required.  A new building official who travels to the town once a week decided I could not do that work anymore. No relief from kicking it up, just more threats actually.  So, I hire a structural engineer now, and have used that to show that when the renewable energy program engineer failed me for not using a certified system, that the structural compliance letter was sufficient. Eventually they agreed. Chris On 6/25/2025 6:59 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > I am having a problem pulling a permit in our county jurisdiction. The > project is a ground mount array with a low tilt angle resulting in an > overall rack height less than 6’.  The county checklist for solar > permits says: "Engineering is required for arrays exceeding six feet > above adjacent grade."  I wanted to make sure this was the current > criteria so I emailed a senior building official before I submitted my > plans and received a reply stating the same criteria. > > I have done jobs in the county in the past with the same low height > and not been required to provide engineering.  The system we use is > pretty robust.  You can see a description here > .  > The rail is SnapNRack 200 series. > > However for this project I am being denied a permit with this reason:  > By not using one of SnapNRack’s suggested support structures I am > “altering” the “racking kit.”  I am told if I provide a structural > analysis a permit will be approved. > > The SnapNRack web site says this on the subject:  “The system is fully > compatible with various foundation types, including > > ground screws, grade beams, and standard pier concrete foundations."  > We all know that the word “including” does not preclude other > possibilities.  I even got one of the SnapNRack engineers to write an > email saying alternative support structures are allowed. > > I have worked up the entire chain of command in San Luis Obispo County > including the department director and the office of County Counsel > with no change in status.  I filed an appeal but the county refused to > hear the appeal. > > I called my county supervisor to intervene but the building department > is giving them the same reason.  The logic is flawed but no one will > believe me in spite of the documentation I have provided. > > Last time we had one of these taller than 6 feet the we had it > engineered at a cost of $5,000.  My contract covers me for the extra > expense so the cost would be to the client.  I don’t believe it is > right for the customer to have to pay this extra expense.  They are > decent people who deserve better. > > I put together a web page to describe the entire interaction. It is > here > . > > I think this is wrong and my principals are not allowing me to give > in.  This is a pattern with this building department. The last time > this happened I fought for months and finally won.  I embarrassed them > and I think the department is trying to punish me. > > I am looking for an attorney but so far all of them are too busy to > take my case. > > Have anyone of you experienced anything like this? Anyone have any advice? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Thu Jun 26 09:50:17 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2025 03:50:17 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Logistics or Upper Mangament contact info Message-ID: Aloha All, Anyone got a good contact inside Solaredge they would care to share off-list? I need to talk to someone who can make stuff happen. Support and their management team can not handle my simple request for a firm ETA or the promise of expedited service for this one support ticket and it is becoming a big problem for me and my client. It is about getting a RMA replacement inverter sent out in a timely manner, not the 1-2 months it has been taking or at the minimum a firm ETA. I have been wrestling with them for 15 days now. The RMA was approved on June 11th. A real-estate deal hangs in the balance. Ughh. Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Jun 26 10:20:30 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2025 10:20:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Logistics or Upper Mangament contact info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Thu Jun 26 10:24:09 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2025 04:24:09 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Permitting problem In-Reply-To: <4d47dcb1-ddd7-4c3b-a20e-f4b115cdf459@entech-engineering.com> References: <4d47dcb1-ddd7-4c3b-a20e-f4b115cdf459@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Unless the project is value engineered and straightforward, we always have an architect/structural engineer draw up plans. It is unfortunate but permitting goes smoother. Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 3:42 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have been down this road. I have designed many structures in a > hurricane prone area at the request of the local building official, using > my PE stamp as required. A new building official who travels to the town > once a week decided I could not do that work anymore. No relief from > kicking it up, just more threats actually. So, I hire a structural > engineer now, and have used that to show that when the renewable energy > program engineer failed me for not using a certified system, that the > structural compliance letter was sufficient. Eventually they agreed. > > Chris > On 6/25/2025 6:59 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I am having a problem pulling a permit in our county jurisdiction. The > project is a ground mount array with a low tilt angle resulting in an > overall rack height less than 6’. The county checklist for solar permits > says: "Engineering is required for arrays exceeding six feet above adjacent > grade." I wanted to make sure this was the current criteria so I emailed a > senior building official before I submitted my plans and received a reply > stating the same criteria. > > > > I have done jobs in the county in the past with the same low height and > not been required to provide engineering. The system we use is pretty > robust. You can see a description here > . > The rail is SnapNRack 200 series. > > > > However for this project I am being denied a permit with this reason: By > not using one of SnapNRack’s suggested support structures I am “altering” > the “racking kit.” I am told if I provide a structural analysis a permit > will be approved. > > > > The SnapNRack web site says this on the subject: “The system is fully > compatible with various foundation types, including > > ground screws, grade beams, and standard pier concrete foundations." We > all know that the word “including” does not preclude other possibilities. > I even got one of the SnapNRack engineers to write an email saying > alternative support structures are allowed. > > > > I have worked up the entire chain of command in San Luis Obispo County > including the department director and the office of County Counsel with no > change in status. I filed an appeal but the county refused to hear the > appeal. > > > > I called my county supervisor to intervene but the building department is > giving them the same reason. The logic is flawed but no one will believe > me in spite of the documentation I have provided. > > > > Last time we had one of these taller than 6 feet the we had it engineered > at a cost of $5,000. My contract covers me for the extra expense so the > cost would be to the client. I don’t believe it is right for the customer > to have to pay this extra expense. They are decent people who deserve > better. > > > > I put together a web page to describe the entire interaction. It is here > > . > > > > I think this is wrong and my principals are not allowing me to give in. > This is a pattern with this building department. The last time this > happened I fought for months and finally won. I embarrassed them and I > think the department is trying to punish me. > > > > I am looking for an attorney but so far all of them are too busy to take > my case. > > > > Have anyone of you experienced anything like this? Anyone have any advice? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 10:25:32 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2025 08:25:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Logistics or Upper Mangament contact info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just had the same thing. A few months ago I got one delivered in under 10 days. This last one has been about 2 months. Finally arrived and I’m on my way to swap. Out of curiosity where are SE made? Jay > On Jun 26, 2025, at 8:21 AM, Glenn via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Well, un their defense, they do have a war going on.... > > -Glenn > > On Jun 26, 2025 09:50, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Aloha All, > > Anyone got a good contact inside Solaredge they would care to share off-list? > > I need to talk to someone who can make stuff happen. Support and their management team can not handle my simple request for a firm ETA or the promise of expedited service for this one support ticket and it is becoming a big problem for me and my client. > > It is about getting a RMA replacement inverter sent out in a timely manner, not the 1-2 months it has been taking or at the minimum a firm ETA. I have been wrestling with them for 15 days now. The RMA was approved on June 11th. A real-estate deal hangs in the balance. Ughh. > > Aloha, > Lou Russo > Spree Solar Systems LLC > C-34322 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Thu Jun 26 10:31:45 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2025 04:31:45 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Logistics or Upper Mangament contact info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good point. Me with no sense of life outside my world, emailed the COO in Tel-Aviv this morning. Ughh. In my defence, the inverter is probably sitting in a warehouse in Texas somewhere. Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 4:20 AM Glenn wrote: > Well, un their defense, they do have a war going on.... > > -Glenn > > On Jun 26, 2025 09:50, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Aloha All, > > Anyone got a good contact inside Solaredge they would care to share > off-list? > > I need to talk to someone who can make stuff happen. Support and > their management team can not handle my simple request for a firm ETA or > the promise of expedited service for this one support ticket and it is > becoming a big problem for me and my client. > > It is about getting a RMA replacement inverter sent out in a timely > manner, not the 1-2 months it has been taking or at the minimum a firm ETA. > I have been wrestling with them for 15 days now. The RMA was approved on > June 11th. A real-estate deal hangs in the balance. Ughh. > > Aloha, > Lou Russo > Spree Solar Systems LLC > C-34322 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Jun 26 10:57:00 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2025 14:57:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Logistics or Upper Mangament contact info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "A few months ago I got one delivered in under 10 days. This last one has been about 2 months. Finally arrived and I’m on my way to swap. " Exactly same here, especially on larger sized inverters. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2025 9:25 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Logistics or Upper Mangament contact info I just had the same thing. A few months ago I got one delivered in under 10 days. This last one has been about 2 months. Finally arrived and I’m on my way to swap. Out of curiosity where are SE made? Jay On Jun 26, 2025, at 8:21 AM, Glenn via RE-wrenches wrote:  Well, un their defense, they do have a war going on.... -Glenn On Jun 26, 2025 09:50, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: Aloha All, Anyone got a good contact inside Solaredge they would care to share off-list? I need to talk to someone who can make stuff happen. Support and their management team can not handle my simple request for a firm ETA or the promise of expedited service for this one support ticket and it is becoming a big problem for me and my client. It is about getting a RMA replacement inverter sent out in a timely manner, not the 1-2 months it has been taking or at the minimum a firm ETA. I have been wrestling with them for 15 days now. The RMA was approved on June 11th. A real-estate deal hangs in the balance. Ughh. Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri Jun 27 15:05:09 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2025 19:05:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backing up a 400A main with two 200-amp main panels: separate or combine with more complexity and use external ATS? Message-ID: Seeking your feedback and best practices. We have a existing customer who wants to add ESS for whole house backup. He has a 400-amp meter box with two 200-amp panels on each side of the meter can. We want to use Sol-Ark and HomeGrid which is our go-to solution. Today, we have two 10KW ground mounts feeding a grid-tied system with Fronius inverters aggregated at the array with single set of conductors back to the house and meter Option 1: Add a SolArk 15KW and HomeGrid '4-stack' per each 200-amp panel and in essence have two separate systems each backing up their own panelboard. Seems easy but I know the panels are not totally balanced and this seems like I'm having excess capacity at the panel that powers circuits to run less than all the time. Brings me to option 2: Install two paralleled SolArks with two batteries again (and now a battery combiner) and add a 400-amp transfer switch and take grid output from meter and bring to ATS first. The GEN inputs on ATS will be fed by aggregated LOAD outputs of the SolArks so if grid fails, the ATS "sees" 240V and transfers to the inverters only and opens circuit to grid. When grid power is there, all is grid-tied and bi-directional. I've done similar setup with Outback Radian and ASCO 200A ATS for whole house backup. But this seems really complicated with lots of extra boxes. Take the simple-easy route even if one inverter is a bit too much for one of the 200-amp panels? Ot aggregate and use ATS so we can put two SolArks to work together to address full load as one operating output? Wall space for this is pretty good for both options. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 [cid:93072a27-74f6-4f45-9077-8804c1dd86e5] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-4krqxd1o.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: Outlook-4krqxd1o.png URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jun 27 22:18:16 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2025 22:18:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pytes Support (kudos) Message-ID: Just a quick shout out to Pytes support. I have a couple of new clients with the E-Box 48100 batteries who have been having issues. One has 8 batteries that apparently never talked right because one battery had a missing "barcode" programmed into it. I discovered this with the console software, and Pytes helped me get it resolved, which stopped intermittent alarms and allowed me to close loop it with a new Midnite AIO. There is still a divergent state of charge issue, which they are looking into, and I'm confident they will follow through. The tech support rep spent over an hour with me today providing remote support via screenshare. The other system was connected incorrectly by the original installer with 20 batteries in a comms loop, 8 being the maximum. They helped me reconfigure it with 4 masters, each comms bank with 5 total, which allowed me to update them efficiently. I also learned they have a comms hub that can help me closed loop this with a future inverter upgrade. Support has been highly competent and quite available, willing to schedule support in advance at remote locations. These experiences have me considering offering their V5 battery (although I'm focused mostly on sealed batteries for most of my clients due to the environment). As far as performance, aside from the divergent SOC issue, these batteries have met expectations in VERY hard service. Summer is here, and we see wild swings in charge and discharge during the day with sun, clouds, and extreme air conditioning use. Overnight they are meeting capacity expectations. I don't have any paired with Sol-Arks yet, but I understand they have a good relationship. I'm curious to learn how this pairing works. Finally, the Solar Assistant info from the Pytes batteries is hugely beneficial (this is how I discovered the divergent SOC issue). Pytes sends great info to the SA interface. It's easy to use the Console port on the Pytes master to communicate with SA simultaneously while using the CAN port to communicate with the Inverter (Midnite AIO in my case). It all works seamlessly without splitters or custom cables. FWIW, hope this helps someone. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 08:56:06 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2025 06:56:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pytes Support (kudos) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3CEBF7FF-D1B8-4FBC-A805-F5B9C292206C@gmail.com> Hi Jason. A question about the AIO/battery interface. It sounds like the AIO only shows minimal battery info. Is it only showing overall battery % or does it allow you to monitor individual battery data? Does pytes have any kind of data interface or is SA the only way to access that information? Thanks. Jay > On Jun 27, 2025, at 8:19 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Just a quick shout out to Pytes support. > > I have a couple of new clients with the E-Box 48100 batteries who have been having issues. > > One has 8 batteries that apparently never talked right because one battery had a missing "barcode" programmed into it. I discovered this with the console software, and Pytes helped me get it resolved, which stopped intermittent alarms and allowed me to close loop it with a new Midnite AIO. There is still a divergent state of charge issue, which they are looking into, and I'm confident they will follow through. The tech support rep spent over an hour with me today providing remote support via screenshare. > > The other system was connected incorrectly by the original installer with 20 batteries in a comms loop, 8 being the maximum. They helped me reconfigure it with 4 masters, each comms bank with 5 total, which allowed me to update them efficiently. I also learned they have a comms hub that can help me closed loop this with a future inverter upgrade. > > Support has been highly competent and quite available, willing to schedule support in advance at remote locations. > > These experiences have me considering offering their V5 battery (although I'm focused mostly on sealed batteries for most of my clients due to the environment). > > As far as performance, aside from the divergent SOC issue, these batteries have met expectations in VERY hard service. Summer is here, and we see wild swings in charge and discharge during the day with sun, clouds, and extreme air conditioning use. Overnight they are meeting capacity expectations. > > I don't have any paired with Sol-Arks yet, but I understand they have a good relationship. I'm curious to learn how this pairing works. > > Finally, the Solar Assistant info from the Pytes batteries is hugely beneficial (this is how I discovered the divergent SOC issue). Pytes sends great info to the SA interface. It's easy to use the Console port on the Pytes master to communicate with SA simultaneously while using the CAN port to communicate with the Inverter (Midnite AIO in my case). It all works seamlessly without splitters or custom cables. > > FWIW, hope this helps someone. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Jun 28 09:09:09 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2025 13:09:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pytes Support (kudos) In-Reply-To: <3CEBF7FF-D1B8-4FBC-A805-F5B9C292206C@gmail.com> References: <3CEBF7FF-D1B8-4FBC-A805-F5B9C292206C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c8c3e12-a3e4-b73e-66b0-ec260200dff0@floridasolardesigngroup.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 961.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 178502 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Image 962.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 175681 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pureenergysolar at hotmail.com Sat Jun 28 23:04:38 2025 From: pureenergysolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 03:04:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pairing OB with Lithium Message-ID: We have an off-grid customer who has a 10KW array and 2 - VFXR3648's, 2 - FM 80's and dying lead acid batts. I'm looking for advice on pairing something in the range of +/-5 kWh of Lithium (preferably LFP). I have not yet paired OB with lithium. Compatibility and Reliability are my goal. What has worked best for you? Your experience and advice are greatly appreciated. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 07:54:47 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 05:54:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pairing OB with Lithium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99F10EEB-C1C9-43B1-A1A9-3CD33A8C1FB1@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 11:03:20 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 11:03:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backing up a 400A main with two 200-amp main panels: separate or combine with more complexity and use external ATS? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Scot, In my experience backing up a 400A service with two Sol-Ark 15K inverters, it's critical to use a single battery bank and to parallel both the inverter inputs and outputs. I initially attempted to configure two interdependent Sol-Arks to work together, but encountered monitoring communication issues and was informed by Sol-Ark tech support that data would be skewed if the inverteres were on the same utility transformer and were not run in parallel. Hope this helps. Best, Chris On Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 3:05 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Seeking your feedback and best practices. > > > We have a existing customer who wants to add ESS for whole house backup. > He has a 400-amp meter box with two 200-amp panels on each side of the > meter can. We want to use Sol-Ark and HomeGrid which is our go-to solution. > Today, we have two 10KW ground mounts feeding a grid-tied system with > Fronius inverters aggregated at the array with single set of conductors > back to the house and meter > > Option 1: Add a SolArk 15KW and HomeGrid '4-stack' per each 200-amp > panel and in essence have two separate systems each backing up their own > panelboard. Seems easy but I know the panels are not totally balanced and > this seems like I'm having excess capacity at the panel that powers > circuits to run less than all the time. > > Brings me to option 2: > > Install two paralleled SolArks with two batteries again (and now a > battery combiner) and add a 400-amp transfer switch and take grid output > from meter and bring to ATS first. The GEN inputs on ATS will be fed by > aggregated LOAD outputs of the SolArks so if grid fails, the ATS "sees" > 240V and transfers to the inverters only and opens circuit to grid. When > grid power is there, all is grid-tied and bi-directional. I've done similar > setup with Outback Radian and ASCO 200A ATS for whole house backup. > > But this seems really complicated with lots of extra boxes. > > Take the simple-easy route even if one inverter is a bit too much for one > of the 200-amp panels? Ot aggregate and use ATS so we can put two SolArks > to work together to address full load as one operating output? Wall space > for this is pretty good for both options. > > *Howard "Scot" Arey* > *Owner, Solar CenTex* > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > TECL 29755 > 254-300-1228 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-4krqxd1o.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Sun Jun 29 13:11:07 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 07:11:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pairing OB with Lithium In-Reply-To: <99F10EEB-C1C9-43B1-A1A9-3CD33A8C1FB1@gmail.com> References: <99F10EEB-C1C9-43B1-A1A9-3CD33A8C1FB1@gmail.com> Message-ID: HomeGrid. LVD setpoint for HomeGrid falls within range of the Outbacks, so LVD actually works, 3R(ish) enclosure and a built-in display. Can't speak for longevity, the oldest one we got out there is 3 years old or so, but no issues as of yet. As noted on this forum,the firmware update process is brutal but we have not done one in 1.5 years and I have heard it has improved. Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 1:55 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wayne. > > As it’s an offgrid system open loop my preference is for batteries that > have a built in display so you don’t need wifi/web connection to monitor. > > If the customer has a FNDC or trimetric the accuracy of those with lithium > can take a while to dial in. > Having an actual % reading on the battery has been very helpful to the few > dozen systems I’ve retro fitted lithium into offgrid systwms. > > I also look for batteries that give setup settings for open loop. Most > don’t. > > Ive used a few brands and have been happy with eg4. > > Out of curiosity 5kwh seems extremely small. > > Jay > > On Jun 28, 2025, at 9:05 PM, Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > We have an off-grid customer who has a 10KW array and 2 - VFXR3648's, 2 - > FM 80's and dying lead acid batts. > > I'm looking for advice on pairing something in the range of +/-5 kWh of > Lithium (preferably LFP). > I have not yet paired OB with lithium. Compatibility and Reliability are > my goal. > What has worked best for you? > > Your experience and advice are greatly appreciated. > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 13:26:49 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 10:26:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backing up a 400A main with two 200-amp main panels: separate or combine with more complexity and use external ATS? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Howard, So first issue I see with the ATS is it will not disconnect the grid if the EC aka Gen set input has no power. I am currently installing a system on a 800/1000 amp, in the past they had ASCO 200 a ATS's installed l am backing up 3 of the 5 with solark 15 and 3 fortress batteries, the customer doesn't want to waist the time doing load verifications, the inverters are replacing the ATS's and will now command the genset, in the future we may need an additional inverter. Don't over think it then over engineer it, complexity leads to complications On Sun, Jun 29, 2025, 8:04 AM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Scot, > > In my experience backing up a 400A service with two Sol-Ark 15K inverters, > it's critical to use a single battery bank and to parallel both the > inverter inputs and outputs. I initially attempted to configure two > interdependent Sol-Arks to work together, but encountered monitoring > communication issues and was informed by Sol-Ark tech support that data > would be skewed if the inverteres were on the same utility transformer and > were not run in parallel. Hope this helps. > > Best, > > Chris > > On Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 3:05 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Seeking your feedback and best practices. >> >> >> We have a existing customer who wants to add ESS for whole house backup. >> He has a 400-amp meter box with two 200-amp panels on each side of the >> meter can. We want to use Sol-Ark and HomeGrid which is our go-to solution. >> Today, we have two 10KW ground mounts feeding a grid-tied system with >> Fronius inverters aggregated at the array with single set of conductors >> back to the house and meter >> >> Option 1: Add a SolArk 15KW and HomeGrid '4-stack' per each 200-amp >> panel and in essence have two separate systems each backing up their own >> panelboard. Seems easy but I know the panels are not totally balanced and >> this seems like I'm having excess capacity at the panel that powers >> circuits to run less than all the time. >> >> Brings me to option 2: >> >> Install two paralleled SolArks with two batteries again (and now a >> battery combiner) and add a 400-amp transfer switch and take grid output >> from meter and bring to ATS first. The GEN inputs on ATS will be fed by >> aggregated LOAD outputs of the SolArks so if grid fails, the ATS "sees" >> 240V and transfers to the inverters only and opens circuit to grid. When >> grid power is there, all is grid-tied and bi-directional. I've done similar >> setup with Outback Radian and ASCO 200A ATS for whole house backup. >> >> But this seems really complicated with lots of extra boxes. >> >> Take the simple-easy route even if one inverter is a bit too much for one >> of the 200-amp panels? Ot aggregate and use ATS so we can put two SolArks >> to work together to address full load as one operating output? Wall space >> for this is pretty good for both options. >> >> *Howard "Scot" Arey* >> *Owner, Solar CenTex* >> >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> TECL 29755 >> 254-300-1228 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-4krqxd1o.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Jun 29 13:30:11 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 10:30:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pairing OB with Lithium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wayne: I have one Deka Duration D5300 connected to an Outback VFXR. It seems to be working OK. There is no generator so I can’t comment on how that would work. The set-points as advised by Deka are evolving so keep an eye on their integration sheets. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Saturday, June 28, 2025 8:05 PM *To:* Wrenches *Cc:* Wayne Irwin *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Pairing OB with Lithium We have an off-grid customer who has a 10KW array and 2 - VFXR3648's, 2 - FM 80's and dying lead acid batts. I'm looking for advice on pairing something in the range of +/-5 kWh of Lithium (preferably LFP). I have not yet paired OB with lithium. Compatibility and Reliability are my goal. What has worked best for you? Your experience and advice are greatly appreciated. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Jun 29 14:35:04 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 14:35:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backing up a 400A main with two 200-amp main panels: separate or combine with more complexity and use external ATS? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you can actually run the whole house on two Sol-Ark 15K (100A combined output), realistically, they probably don't need 400A service. Have you done a load calc on the home? We see lots of 400A services where they could have "gotten away" with a 200A service. In these cases, I always encourage the homeowner to just back up one of the two 200A panels and move all critical loads to that panel. If you need more spaces, add a subpanel. If they have 400A service but only need 200A service and demand truly whole-house backup, simply disconnect one of the panels from the utility and instead feed it from the backed up 200A panel as a subpanel. There's nothing that says you can't have a 400A meter feeding a 200A main panel protected by a 200A main breaker, and use the other one as a subpanel, as long as the load calcs work out. You will just have to separate neutrals and grounds and remove the bonding jumper. Depending on the panel brand, you can usually get a 200A breaker or feed-through kit that takes up four spaces. Even if the load calc for the home comes back over 200A, you can probably easily get the backup panel under 200A of calculated loads and just back that up. It makes no sense to try to back up a whole home that needs over 200A service unless you are installing a massive system, which would be more than two Sol-Arks can handle. We encourage people to choose non-critical loads to leave out, like electric dryers, pool heaters, pool pumps (although this is nice to have on a smart load), EV chargers, electric ranges and cooktops, outdoor kitchens, hot tubs, electric saunas, etc. This should easily get the backup panel under 200A. If you present it as a value engineering option, it's relatively easy to get people to move away from their "whole home or nothing" mentality. With that said, if I am truly backing up a 400A service here in Florida, I'm installing at least four 15K inverters, 35kW of PV, and 120 kWh of battery capacity. And I'm still dumping EV chargers and pool heaters during a utility outage. I would put a 400A main service disconnect ahead of the inverters and install a 400A DPDT transfer switch for bypass purposes. Auxiliary generator input goes directly to the Sol-Arks, unless the owner wants to spring for another DPDT transfer switch to send generator power directly to the house in the event of grid and inverter failure. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 3:06 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Seeking your feedback and best practices. > > > We have a existing customer who wants to add ESS for whole house backup. > He has a 400-amp meter box with two 200-amp panels on each side of the > meter can. We want to use Sol-Ark and HomeGrid which is our go-to solution. > Today, we have two 10KW ground mounts feeding a grid-tied system with > Fronius inverters aggregated at the array with single set of conductors > back to the house and meter > > Option 1: Add a SolArk 15KW and HomeGrid '4-stack' per each 200-amp > panel and in essence have two separate systems each backing up their own > panelboard. Seems easy but I know the panels are not totally balanced and > this seems like I'm having excess capacity at the panel that powers > circuits to run less than all the time. > > Brings me to option 2: > > Install two paralleled SolArks with two batteries again (and now a > battery combiner) and add a 400-amp transfer switch and take grid output > from meter and bring to ATS first. The GEN inputs on ATS will be fed by > aggregated LOAD outputs of the SolArks so if grid fails, the ATS "sees" > 240V and transfers to the inverters only and opens circuit to grid. When > grid power is there, all is grid-tied and bi-directional. I've done similar > setup with Outback Radian and ASCO 200A ATS for whole house backup. > > But this seems really complicated with lots of extra boxes. > > Take the simple-easy route even if one inverter is a bit too much for one > of the 200-amp panels? Ot aggregate and use ATS so we can put two SolArks > to work together to address full load as one operating output? Wall space > for this is pretty good for both options. > > *Howard "Scot" Arey* > *Owner, Solar CenTex* > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > TECL 29755 > 254-300-1228 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-4krqxd1o.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 29 15:28:14 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 12:28:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pairing OB with Lithium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are they using optics or are you and want to monitor? Do they need State of charge from the BMS into their system to monitor? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [3]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [4] [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-06-28 8:04 pm, Wayne Irwin via RE-wrenches wrote: > We have an off-grid customer who has a 10KW array and 2 - VFXR3648's, 2 > - FM 80's and dying lead acid batts. > > I'm looking for advice on pairing something in the range of +/-5 kWh of > Lithium (preferably LFP). > I have not yet paired OB with lithium. Compatibility and Reliability > are my goal. > What has worked best for you? > > Your experience and advice are greatly appreciated. > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com [1] > SolarChargingStation.com [2] > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you > are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, > any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by > reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank > you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://pureenergysolar.com/ [2] http://solarchargingstation.com/ [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 17:15:28 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 15:15:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Speaking of Outback Message-ID: <2A3866C1-254E-49E7-8D71-2977652EF207@gmail.com> Does anyone have any updated info as to the current status of OB? Thx Jay From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 29 18:38:35 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 15:38:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Speaking of Outback In-Reply-To: <2A3866C1-254E-49E7-8D71-2977652EF207@gmail.com> References: <2A3866C1-254E-49E7-8D71-2977652EF207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8c09101948f5b01dcfa38152547aac27@sti.net> Hey Jay, Last post on the forum was June 19th. Optics worked for me on a client last week. I do not expect good things from what I read... The X feed on the old twitter for Outback power systems is https://x.com/OpticsRE I' ve heard all the Signature solar stuff, nothing new. A search from a minute ago got this from Google AI * Marshall Neipert is the new president of Outback Power under this new ownership. * The physical and human resources of Outback have reportedly relocated to Texas. * Signature Solar is a distributor and is owned by the same founder as EG4 Electronics. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-06-29 2:15 pm, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Does anyone have any updated info as to the current status of OB? > > Thx > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Jun 29 19:55:53 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 17:55:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backing up a 400A main with two 200-amp main panels: separate or combine with more complexity and use external ATS? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28651644-c925-4799-ac9e-9c5e0dc9bc30@solarray.com> I second the idea of just backing up one of the 200 A panels, and moving critical loads there.  The trouble I've seen with total backup, is that the customers are not even aware that the grid went down, and make no effort to curtail their usage.  Then, once the batteries are down, they are truly off line.  I've had customers even compliment our choice of circuits; they knew the power was out because certain things went off, but still had a very usable home. Also, on larger homes there are all sorts of loads like steam showers, etc. that really don't need to be on, but will drain the batteries quickly in an outage. Finally, unless power outages are common, a GTB system can make the power less reliable, not better.  I quit doing them, unless folks had numerous outages, like in Puerto Rico. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 6/29/2025 12:35 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > If you can actually run the whole house on two Sol-Ark 15K (100A > combined output), realistically, they probably don't need 400A > service. Have you done a load calc on the home? We see lots of 400A > services where they could have "gotten away" with a 200A service. > > In these cases, I always encourage the homeowner to just back up one > of the two 200A panels and move all critical loads to that panel. If > you need more spaces, add a subpanel. If they have 400A service but > only need 200A service and demand truly whole-house backup, simply > disconnect one of the panels from the utility and instead feed it from > the backed up 200A panel as a subpanel. There's nothing that says you > can't have a 400A meter feeding a 200A main panel protected by a 200A > main breaker, and use the other one as a subpanel, as long as the load > calcs work out. You will just have to separate neutrals and grounds > and remove the bonding jumper. Depending on the panel brand, you can > usually get a 200A breaker or feed-through kit that takes up four spaces. > > Even if the load calc for the home comes back over 200A, you can > probably easily get the backup panel under 200A of calculated loads > and just back that up. It makes no sense to try to back up a whole > home that needs over 200A service unless you are installing a massive > system, which would be more than two Sol-Arks can handle. We encourage > people to choose non-critical loads to leave out, like electric > dryers, pool heaters, pool pumps (although this is nice to have on a > smart load), EV chargers, electric ranges and cooktops, outdoor > kitchens, hot tubs, electric saunas, etc. This should easily get the > backup panel under 200A. If you present it as a value engineering > option, it's relatively easy to get people to move away from their > "whole home or nothing" mentality. > > With that said, if I am truly backing up a 400A service here in > Florida, I'm installing at least four 15K inverters, 35kW of PV, and > 120 kWh of battery capacity. And I'm still dumping EV chargers and > pool heaters during a utility outage. I would put a 400A main service > disconnect ahead of the inverters and install a 400A DPDT > transfer switch for bypass purposes. Auxiliary generator input goes > directly to the Sol-Arks, unless the owner wants to spring for another > DPDT transfer switch to send generator power directly to the house in > the event of grid and inverter failure. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 3:06 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Seeking your feedback and best practices. > > > We have a existing customer who wants to add ESS for whole house > backup. He has a 400-amp meter box with two 200-amp panels on each > side of the meter can. We want to use Sol-Ark and HomeGrid which > is our go-to solution. Today, we have two 10KW ground mounts > feeding a grid-tied system with Fronius inverters aggregated at > the array with single set of conductors back to the house and meter > > Option 1: Add a SolArk 15KW and HomeGrid '4-stack' per each > 200-amp panel and in essence have two separate systems each > backing up their own panelboard. Seems easy but I know the panels > are not totally balanced and this seems like I'm having excess > capacity at the panel that powers circuits to run less than all > the time. > > Brings me to option 2: > > Install two paralleled SolArks with two batteries again (and now a > battery combiner) and add a 400-amp transfer switch and take grid > output from meter and bring to ATS first. The GEN inputs on ATS > will be fed by aggregated LOAD outputs of the SolArks so if grid > fails, the ATS "sees" 240V and transfers to the inverters only  > and opens circuit to grid. When grid power is there, all is > grid-tied and bi-directional. I've done similar setup with Outback > Radian and ASCO 200A ATS for whole house backup. > > But this seems really complicated with lots of extra boxes. > > Take the simple-easy route even if one inverter is a bit too much > for one of the 200-amp panels? Ot aggregate and use ATS so we can > put two SolArks to work together to address full load as one > operating output? Wall space for this is pretty good for both options. > > *Howard "Scot" Arey* > *Owner, Solar CenTex* > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > TECL 29755 > 254-300-1228 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-4krqxd1o.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jun 30 06:57:41 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2025 06:57:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Induction Cooktops Off-Grid Message-ID: Does anyone have any experience with how high frequency inverters handle induction cooktop loads? I'm not really asking about off-grid, because most off-grid clients use gas for cooking, but for grid-tied battery backup, we are starting to see a lot of homes with induction cooktops where the homeowner wants it on the backup loads panel. I know it's not really a reactive power issue like a motor load, but it would be a large, nearly instantaneous resistive load essentially. I'm wondering if this might lead to nuisance overloads or lights flickering. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon Jun 30 08:56:22 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2025 12:56:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backing up a 400A main with two 200-amp main panels: separate or combine with more complexity and use external ATS? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wonderful feedback. I think I'll pursue the backup of a single 200A with some "essential" (aka 'highly desired') circuits moved over to the backed up panel. Then we can use a 2x paralleled SolArk on this single panel and feel comfortable with its performance during backup. Thanks for feedback, all Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: Jason Szumlanski Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2025 1:35 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: scot.arey at solarcentex.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Backing up a 400A main with two 200-amp main panels: separate or combine with more complexity and use external ATS? If you can actually run the whole house on two Sol-Ark 15K (100A combined output), realistically, they probably don't need 400A service. Have you done a load calc on the home? We see lots of 400A services where they could have "gotten away" with a 200A service. In these cases, I always encourage the homeowner to just back up one of the two 200A panels and move all critical loads to that panel. If you need more spaces, add a subpanel. If they have 400A service but only need 200A service and demand truly whole-house backup, simply disconnect one of the panels from the utility and instead feed it from the backed up 200A panel as a subpanel. There's nothing that says you can't have a 400A meter feeding a 200A main panel protected by a 200A main breaker, and use the other one as a subpanel, as long as the load calcs work out. You will just have to separate neutrals and grounds and remove the bonding jumper. Depending on the panel brand, you can usually get a 200A breaker or feed-through kit that takes up four spaces. Even if the load calc for the home comes back over 200A, you can probably easily get the backup panel under 200A of calculated loads and just back that up. It makes no sense to try to back up a whole home that needs over 200A service unless you are installing a massive system, which would be more than two Sol-Arks can handle. We encourage people to choose non-critical loads to leave out, like electric dryers, pool heaters, pool pumps (although this is nice to have on a smart load), EV chargers, electric ranges and cooktops, outdoor kitchens, hot tubs, electric saunas, etc. This should easily get the backup panel under 200A. If you present it as a value engineering option, it's relatively easy to get people to move away from their "whole home or nothing" mentality. With that said, if I am truly backing up a 400A service here in Florida, I'm installing at least four 15K inverters, 35kW of PV, and 120 kWh of battery capacity. And I'm still dumping EV chargers and pool heaters during a utility outage. I would put a 400A main service disconnect ahead of the inverters and install a 400A DPDT transfer switch for bypass purposes. Auxiliary generator input goes directly to the Sol-Arks, unless the owner wants to spring for another DPDT transfer switch to send generator power directly to the house in the event of grid and inverter failure. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 3:06 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches > wrote: Seeking your feedback and best practices. We have a existing customer who wants to add ESS for whole house backup. He has a 400-amp meter box with two 200-amp panels on each side of the meter can. We want to use Sol-Ark and HomeGrid which is our go-to solution. Today, we have two 10KW ground mounts feeding a grid-tied system with Fronius inverters aggregated at the array with single set of conductors back to the house and meter Option 1: Add a SolArk 15KW and HomeGrid '4-stack' per each 200-amp panel and in essence have two separate systems each backing up their own panelboard. Seems easy but I know the panels are not totally balanced and this seems like I'm having excess capacity at the panel that powers circuits to run less than all the time. Brings me to option 2: Install two paralleled SolArks with two batteries again (and now a battery combiner) and add a 400-amp transfer switch and take grid output from meter and bring to ATS first. The GEN inputs on ATS will be fed by aggregated LOAD outputs of the SolArks so if grid fails, the ATS "sees" 240V and transfers to the inverters only and opens circuit to grid. When grid power is there, all is grid-tied and bi-directional. I've done similar setup with Outback Radian and ASCO 200A ATS for whole house backup. But this seems really complicated with lots of extra boxes. Take the simple-easy route even if one inverter is a bit too much for one of the 200-amp panels? Ot aggregate and use ATS so we can put two SolArks to work together to address full load as one operating output? Wall space for this is pretty good for both options. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 [cid:ii_197bce784256893c0bb1] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-4krqxd1o.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: Outlook-4krqxd1o.png URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Mon Jun 30 10:06:32 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2025 10:06:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Induction Cooktops Off-Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No issues, use them at my home with Off Grid on MNPS / MNP AIO. Seamless, even when frequency shifting for AC coupled. On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 6:58 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with how high frequency inverters handle > induction cooktop loads? I'm not really asking about off-grid, because most > off-grid clients use gas for cooking, but for grid-tied battery backup, we > are starting to see a lot of homes with induction cooktops where the > homeowner wants it on the backup loads panel. > > I know it's not really a reactive power issue like a motor load, but it > would be a large, nearly instantaneous resistive load essentially. I'm > wondering if this might lead to nuisance overloads or lights flickering. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 22:25:36 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2025 19:25:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Induction Cooktops Off-Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Wrenches, Jason, I actually have off grid customers with induction, uses much less energy and with outback have had no issues, on whole home backed up loads with solark, again no issues, I can't say how much it is used in an outage but it does work. Fun times On Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 7:07 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > No issues, use them at my home with Off Grid on MNPS / MNP AIO. > Seamless, even when frequency shifting for AC coupled. > > On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 6:58 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Does anyone have any experience with how high frequency inverters handle >> induction cooktop loads? I'm not really asking about off-grid, because most >> off-grid clients use gas for cooking, but for grid-tied battery backup, we >> are starting to see a lot of homes with induction cooktops where the >> homeowner wants it on the backup loads panel. >> >> I know it's not really a reactive power issue like a motor load, but it >> would be a large, nearly instantaneous resistive load essentially. I'm >> wondering if this might lead to nuisance overloads or lights flickering. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 23:17:12 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2025 23:17:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Induction Cooktops Off-Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, I’ve installed several Sol-Ark inverters in off-grid applications with induction cooktops and have had zero issue. On Thanksgiving last year, a set of off-grid induction stoves pulled over 12 kW without flinching (albeit with 2ea. Sol-Ark 15Ks and a hefty battery bank). I personally don’t suggest that off-grid home owners install massive electrical loads, but some customers are set on certain creature comforts. Most come to their senses when they realize the sizing and cost implications… On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 10:27 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey Wrenches, Jason, > I actually have off grid customers with induction, uses much less energy > and with outback have had no issues, on whole home backed up loads with > solark, again no issues, I can't say how much it is used in an outage but > it does work. > Fun times > > On Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 7:07 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> No issues, use them at my home with Off Grid on MNPS / MNP AIO. >> Seamless, even when frequency shifting for AC coupled. >> >> On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 6:58 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Does anyone have any experience with how high frequency inverters handle >>> induction cooktop loads? I'm not really asking about off-grid, because most >>> off-grid clients use gas for cooking, but for grid-tied battery backup, we >>> are starting to see a lot of homes with induction cooktops where the >>> homeowner wants it on the backup loads panel. >>> >>> I know it's not really a reactive power issue like a motor load, but it >>> would be a large, nearly instantaneous resistive load essentially. I'm >>> wondering if this might lead to nuisance overloads or lights flickering. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Tue Jul 1 00:09:23 2025 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2025 21:09:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Induction Cooktops Off-Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The only issue I've had was with a high end induction range shutting down when the battery inverters frequency shifted to control some AC-coupled PV inverters. After some testing, it became clear that the induction range was fine up to 63.0 Hz, and would immediately shut down at 63.1 Hz. Programming the battery inverters to top out at 62.5Hz solved the problem. Blake Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 [image: sunlightandpower.com] 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 [image: https://www.amicussolar.com/] [image: https://calssa.org/] On Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 8:18 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > > I’ve installed several Sol-Ark inverters in off-grid applications with > induction cooktops and have had zero issue. On Thanksgiving last year, a > set of off-grid induction stoves pulled over 12 kW without flinching > (albeit with 2ea. Sol-Ark 15Ks and a hefty battery bank). I personally > don’t suggest that off-grid home owners install massive electrical loads, > but some customers are set on certain creature comforts. Most come to their > senses when they realize the sizing and cost implications… > > On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 10:27 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hey Wrenches, Jason, >> I actually have off grid customers with induction, uses much less energy >> and with outback have had no issues, on whole home backed up loads with >> solark, again no issues, I can't say how much it is used in an outage but >> it does work. >> Fun times >> >> On Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 7:07 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> No issues, use them at my home with Off Grid on MNPS / MNP AIO. >>> Seamless, even when frequency shifting for AC coupled. >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 6:58 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Does anyone have any experience with how high frequency inverters >>>> handle induction cooktop loads? I'm not really asking about off-grid, >>>> because most off-grid clients use gas for cooking, but for grid-tied >>>> battery backup, we are starting to see a lot of homes with induction >>>> cooktops where the homeowner wants it on the backup loads panel. >>>> >>>> I know it's not really a reactive power issue like a motor load, but it >>>> would be a large, nearly instantaneous resistive load essentially. I'm >>>> wondering if this might lead to nuisance overloads or lights flickering. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 1 07:22:08 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2025 07:22:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Induction Cooktops Off-Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great feedback, all. I have some clients where fuel delivery (to the island) is impractical, untimely, and expensive, so they want no generator backup, no fuel whatsoever. It sounds like induction cooktop are a suitable option. Thanks! Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 11:18 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > > I’ve installed several Sol-Ark inverters in off-grid applications with > induction cooktops and have had zero issue. On Thanksgiving last year, a > set of off-grid induction stoves pulled over 12 kW without flinching > (albeit with 2ea. Sol-Ark 15Ks and a hefty battery bank). I personally > don’t suggest that off-grid home owners install massive electrical loads, > but some customers are set on certain creature comforts. Most come to their > senses when they realize the sizing and cost implications… > > On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 10:27 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hey Wrenches, Jason, >> I actually have off grid customers with induction, uses much less energy >> and with outback have had no issues, on whole home backed up loads with >> solark, again no issues, I can't say how much it is used in an outage but >> it does work. >> Fun times >> >> On Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 7:07 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> No issues, use them at my home with Off Grid on MNPS / MNP AIO. >>> Seamless, even when frequency shifting for AC coupled. >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 6:58 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Does anyone have any experience with how high frequency inverters >>>> handle induction cooktop loads? I'm not really asking about off-grid, >>>> because most off-grid clients use gas for cooking, but for grid-tied >>>> battery backup, we are starting to see a lot of homes with induction >>>> cooktops where the homeowner wants it on the backup loads panel. >>>> >>>> I know it's not really a reactive power issue like a motor load, but it >>>> would be a large, nearly instantaneous resistive load essentially. I'm >>>> wondering if this might lead to nuisance overloads or lights flickering. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 3 07:00:17 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 07:00:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) Message-ID: The attached wiring diagram from the manual shows both a generator and grid connected to the Sol-Ark Grid input with a transfer switch to select between grid and generator. Question: If you program the inverter for GEN on Grid Input and allow Grid Sell, how would the inverter know what the input source is and prevent selling to the generator inadvertently? I suppose if it is an automatic transfer switch and the two wire start is called for, the inverter might stop grid selling when calling for the generator (but I'm not sure if that's the case). In any case, that's not a failsafe solution because the generator could be started and selected manually with the transfer switch and the inverter would not know it. I have someone insisting that Sol-Ark supports this configuration with Grid Sell enabled. I can't imagine that is the case. At a minimum, it would be bad practice. In my opinion, the interface should disallow Grid Sell altogether when GEN on Grid Input is selected. Maybe it's already doing that internally, but it isn't clear at all from the interface or the manual. Of course, the Off-Grid section of the manual does tell you to not use the Grid Sell option. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot_20250703_063315_Drive.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 551292 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 08:41:33 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 06:41:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0AF749CB-F19A-40C1-ABDA-CDBEE2CEA515@gmail.com> It’s got generator input terminals. Why not use them for the generator? > On Jul 3, 2025, at 5:05 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > The attached wiring diagram from the manual shows both a generator and grid connected to the Sol-Ark Grid input with a transfer switch to select between grid and generator. > > Question: If you program the inverter for GEN on Grid Input and allow Grid Sell, how would the inverter know what the input source is and prevent selling to the generator inadvertently? > > I suppose if it is an automatic transfer switch and the two wire start is called for, the inverter might stop grid selling when calling for the generator (but I'm not sure if that's the case). In any case, that's not a failsafe solution because the generator could be started and selected manually with the transfer switch and the inverter would not know it. > > I have someone insisting that Sol-Ark supports this configuration with Grid Sell enabled. I can't imagine that is the case. At a minimum, it would be bad practice. > > In my opinion, the interface should disallow Grid Sell altogether when GEN on Grid Input is selected. Maybe it's already doing that internally, but it isn't clear at all from the interface or the manual. > > Of course, the Off-Grid section of the manual does tell you to not use the Grid Sell option. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 3 15:10:07 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 15:10:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) In-Reply-To: <0AF749CB-F19A-40C1-ABDA-CDBEE2CEA515@gmail.com> References: <0AF749CB-F19A-40C1-ABDA-CDBEE2CEA515@gmail.com> Message-ID: This guy wants the smart load capability, too. Jason On Thu, Jul 3, 2025 at 8:42 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > It’s got generator input terminals. > Why not use them for the generator? > > > On Jul 3, 2025, at 5:05 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > The attached wiring diagram from the manual shows both a generator and > grid connected to the Sol-Ark Grid input with a transfer switch to select > between grid and generator. > > Question: If you program the inverter for GEN on Grid Input and allow Grid > Sell, how would the inverter know what the input source is and prevent > selling to the generator inadvertently? > > I suppose if it is an automatic transfer switch and the two wire start is > called for, the inverter might stop grid selling when calling for the > generator (but I'm not sure if that's the case). In any case, that's not a > failsafe solution because the generator could be started and selected > manually with the transfer switch and the inverter would not know it. > > I have someone insisting that Sol-Ark supports this configuration with > Grid Sell enabled. I can't imagine that is the case. At a minimum, it would > be bad practice. > > In my opinion, the interface should disallow Grid Sell altogether when GEN > on Grid Input is selected. Maybe it's already doing that internally, but it > isn't clear at all from the interface or the manual. > > Of course, the Off-Grid section of the manual does tell you to not use the > Grid Sell option. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Thu Jul 3 16:13:57 2025 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 20:13:57 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) In-Reply-To: References: <0AF749CB-F19A-40C1-ABDA-CDBEE2CEA515@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sol-Ark strongly recommends only using a line side generator under inverter 2 wire control and with AC coupled inverters off, per several webinars. Best regards, Lloyd I’m lLlCOGet Outlook fo ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, July 3, 2025 3:10:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) This guy wants the smart load capability, too. Jason On Thu, Jul 3, 2025 at 8:42 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: It’s got generator input terminals. Why not use them for the generator? On Jul 3, 2025, at 5:05 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote:  The attached wiring diagram from the manual shows both a generator and grid connected to the Sol-Ark Grid input with a transfer switch to select between grid and generator. Question: If you program the inverter for GEN on Grid Input and allow Grid Sell, how would the inverter know what the input source is and prevent selling to the generator inadvertently? I suppose if it is an automatic transfer switch and the two wire start is called for, the inverter might stop grid selling when calling for the generator (but I'm not sure if that's the case). In any case, that's not a failsafe solution because the generator could be started and selected manually with the transfer switch and the inverter would not know it. I have someone insisting that Sol-Ark supports this configuration with Grid Sell enabled. I can't imagine that is the case. At a minimum, it would be bad practice. In my opinion, the interface should disallow Grid Sell altogether when GEN on Grid Input is selected. Maybe it's already doing that internally, but it isn't clear at all from the interface or the manual. Of course, the Off-Grid section of the manual does tell you to not use the Grid Sell option. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 3 16:33:06 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 16:33:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) In-Reply-To: References: <0AF749CB-F19A-40C1-ABDA-CDBEE2CEA515@gmail.com> Message-ID: That might be their recommendation, but it doesn't stop someone from manually starting the generator when the utility is down. Their wiring diagram leave a lot to be desired in terms of how program the system in this configuration. Even if they strongly recommend that in webinars, it still isn't clear to me if Grid Sell is automatically disabled when the 2-wire start relay is closed. Honestly, I wouldn't trust the answer from a random tech support agent, especially with various firmwares floating around. This is just another example of poorly documented and ambiguous operational control that plagues all of the all-in-one inverters. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jul 3, 2025, 4:14 PM Lloyd Hoffstatter < lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > Sol-Ark strongly recommends only using a line side generator under > inverter 2 wire control and with AC coupled inverters off, per several > webinars. > Best regards, > Lloyd > > I’m lLlCOGet Outlook fo > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, July 3, 2025 3:10:07 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) > > This guy wants the smart load capability, too. > > > Jason > > > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2025 at 8:42 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > It’s got generator input terminals. > Why not use them for the generator? > > > On Jul 3, 2025, at 5:05 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > The attached wiring diagram from the manual shows both a generator and > grid connected to the Sol-Ark Grid input with a transfer switch to select > between grid and generator. > > Question: If you program the inverter for GEN on Grid Input and allow Grid > Sell, how would the inverter know what the input source is and prevent > selling to the generator inadvertently? > > I suppose if it is an automatic transfer switch and the two wire start is > called for, the inverter might stop grid selling when calling for the > generator (but I'm not sure if that's the case). In any case, that's not a > failsafe solution because the generator could be started and selected > manually with the transfer switch and the inverter would not know it. > > I have someone insisting that Sol-Ark supports this configuration with > Grid Sell enabled. I can't imagine that is the case. At a minimum, it would > be bad practice. > > In my opinion, the interface should disallow Grid Sell altogether when GEN > on Grid Input is selected. Maybe it's already doing that internally, but it > isn't clear at all from the interface or the manual. > > Of course, the Off-Grid section of the manual does tell you to not use the > Grid Sell option. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 17:11:05 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2025 15:11:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5236E072-8ECF-48A7-BD8E-83E18F13F617@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com Mon Jul 7 16:05:59 2025 From: Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com (Poole, Jharen) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 20:05:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) In-Reply-To: <5236E072-8ECF-48A7-BD8E-83E18F13F617@gmail.com> References: <5236E072-8ECF-48A7-BD8E-83E18F13F617@gmail.com> Message-ID: For a setup such as this, it is recommended that the generator is started using the inverter’s 2-wire start function rather than a manual startup. We also want to make sure that the grid signal, gen signal, and gen connected to grid input settings are enabled on the inverter to ensure proper detection and operation. I wouldn’t recommend using this setup on a manual start with large generators rated 45kW or higher and are hospital grade. These tend to produce extremely clean power and can mistakenly be identified as the utility grid, which can interfere with its ability to properly determine the source of the input and affect the system behavior. If you're using a typical residential generator with the recommended startup configuration, and the generator is called upon, the inverter will display a generator icon on the screen once it detects generator power (on the latest firmware). Although the “grid sell” setting remains enabled, the inverter is programmed to prevent power from being exported back to the generator. During a grid outage, it will operate using generator power, and once utility power is restored and detected, the inverter will automatically resume normal grid sell operations. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:c69723c6-1e2e-47bc-9509-f748a85507b8] ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, July 3, 2025 4:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) Caution: This email is from an external source. Sounds like what they want the sol ark can’t do. I think either the eg4 flexboss and MID or the AIO might work. On Jul 3, 2025, at 2:33 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:  That might be their recommendation, but it doesn't stop someone from manually starting the generator when the utility is down. Their wiring diagram leave a lot to be desired in terms of how program the system in this configuration. Even if they strongly recommend that in webinars, it still isn't clear to me if Grid Sell is automatically disabled when the 2-wire start relay is closed. Honestly, I wouldn't trust the answer from a random tech support agent, especially with various firmwares floating around. This is just another example of poorly documented and ambiguous operational control that plagues all of the all-in-one inverters. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jul 3, 2025, 4:14 PM Lloyd Hoffstatter > wrote: Sol-Ark strongly recommends only using a line side generator under inverter 2 wire control and with AC coupled inverters off, per several webinars. Best regards, Lloyd I’m lLlCOGet Outlook fo ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > Sent: Thursday, July 3, 2025 3:10:07 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) This guy wants the smart load capability, too. Jason On Thu, Jul 3, 2025 at 8:42 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: It’s got generator input terminals. Why not use them for the generator? On Jul 3, 2025, at 5:05 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote:  The attached wiring diagram from the manual shows both a generator and grid connected to the Sol-Ark Grid input with a transfer switch to select between grid and generator. Question: If you program the inverter for GEN on Grid Input and allow Grid Sell, how would the inverter know what the input source is and prevent selling to the generator inadvertently? I suppose if it is an automatic transfer switch and the two wire start is called for, the inverter might stop grid selling when calling for the generator (but I'm not sure if that's the case). In any case, that's not a failsafe solution because the generator could be started and selected manually with the transfer switch and the inverter would not know it. I have someone insisting that Sol-Ark supports this configuration with Grid Sell enabled. I can't imagine that is the case. At a minimum, it would be bad practice. In my opinion, the interface should disallow Grid Sell altogether when GEN on Grid Input is selected. Maybe it's already doing that internally, but it isn't clear at all from the interface or the manual. Of course, the Off-Grid section of the manual does tell you to not use the Grid Sell option. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-id0q55ae.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: Outlook-id0q55ae.png URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jul 7 16:24:27 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 16:24:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) In-Reply-To: References: <5236E072-8ECF-48A7-BD8E-83E18F13F617@gmail.com> Message-ID: That is interesting. What happens if someone starts the generator manually and manually engages the transfer switch to the generator position? Will the inverter still detect it as a generator, or will that only happen if the 2-wire start is being called for? Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Jul 7, 2025 at 4:07 PM Poole, Jharen via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > For a setup such as this, it is recommended that the generator is started > using the inverter’s 2-wire start function rather than a manual startup. We > also want to make sure that the grid signal, gen signal, and gen connected > to grid input settings are enabled on the inverter to ensure proper > detection and operation. I wouldn’t recommend using this setup on a manual > start with large generators rated 45kW or higher and are hospital grade. > These tend to produce extremely clean power and can mistakenly be > identified as the utility grid, which can interfere with its ability to > properly determine the source of the input and affect the system behavior. > > If you're using a typical residential generator with the recommended > startup configuration, and the generator is called upon, the inverter will > display a generator icon on the screen once it detects generator power (on > the latest firmware). Although the “grid sell” setting remains enabled, the > inverter is programmed to prevent power from being exported back to the > generator. During a grid outage, it will operate using generator power, and > once utility power is restored and detected, the inverter will > automatically resume normal grid sell operations. > > Best Regards, > > Jharen Poole > Applications Engineer II > 972-575-8875 > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jay via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, July 3, 2025 4:11 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jay > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) > > *Caution:* This email is from an external source. > > > Sounds like what they want the sol ark can’t do. > > I think either the eg4 flexboss and MID or the AIO might work. > > > > On Jul 3, 2025, at 2:33 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > That might be their recommendation, but it doesn't stop someone from > manually starting the generator when the utility is down. Their wiring > diagram leave a lot to be desired in terms of how program the system in > this configuration. > > Even if they strongly recommend that in webinars, it still isn't clear to > me if Grid Sell is automatically disabled when the 2-wire start relay is > closed. Honestly, I wouldn't trust the answer from a random tech support > agent, especially with various firmwares floating around. > > This is just another example of poorly documented and ambiguous > operational control that plagues all of the all-in-one inverters. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2025, 4:14 PM Lloyd Hoffstatter < > lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > > Sol-Ark strongly recommends only using a line side generator under > inverter 2 wire control and with AC coupled inverters off, per several > webinars. > Best regards, > Lloyd > > I’m lLlCOGet Outlook fo > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, July 3, 2025 3:10:07 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) > > This guy wants the smart load capability, too. > > > Jason > > > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2025 at 8:42 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > It’s got generator input terminals. > Why not use them for the generator? > > > On Jul 3, 2025, at 5:05 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > The attached wiring diagram from the manual shows both a generator and > grid connected to the Sol-Ark Grid input with a transfer switch to select > between grid and generator. > > Question: If you program the inverter for GEN on Grid Input and allow Grid > Sell, how would the inverter know what the input source is and prevent > selling to the generator inadvertently? > > I suppose if it is an automatic transfer switch and the two wire start is > called for, the inverter might stop grid selling when calling for the > generator (but I'm not sure if that's the case). In any case, that's not a > failsafe solution because the generator could be started and selected > manually with the transfer switch and the inverter would not know it. > > I have someone insisting that Sol-Ark supports this configuration with > Grid Sell enabled. I can't imagine that is the case. At a minimum, it would > be bad practice. > > In my opinion, the interface should disallow Grid Sell altogether when GEN > on Grid Input is selected. Maybe it's already doing that internally, but it > isn't clear at all from the interface or the manual. > > Of course, the Off-Grid section of the manual does tell you to not use the > Grid Sell option. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-id0q55ae.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon Jul 7 16:33:39 2025 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 20:33:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator interface relay Message-ID: Wrenches What are you using to drop AC to a GT inverter when a generator starts up? I have a 40A rated contactor in place but it failed after 18 months. The generator is not close to the inverters , so I ran a grid reference circuit to the inverter location and installed the contactor there. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From ryan.harkins at energycraft.com Mon Jul 7 17:06:47 2025 From: ryan.harkins at energycraft.com (Ryan Harkins) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 16:06:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator interface relay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2CDBB4B0-85AD-4F54-AC63-91B85DAD9C66@energycraft.com> PSP Products! SAK-60 model for up to 60A. Easy setup, detects frequency of generator, and drops the inverter out for you. Doesn’t require direct wiring to the gen. https://www.pspproducts.com/load-management/sak-60-wireless-load-management/ SAK-60 Wireless Load Management pspproducts.com Ryan Harkins NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ / Project Manager  Synergy Renewable Systems, LLC PO Box 58 Stoughton, WI 53589 PH: (608) 712-7862 See our new website! www.synergyrenewablesystems.com > On Jul 7, 2025, at 3:33 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches > What are you using to drop AC to a GT inverter when a generator starts up? > I have a 40A rated contactor in place but it failed after 18 months. > The generator is not close to the inverters , so I ran a grid reference circuit to the inverter location and installed the contactor there. > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SAK-60-Angle-Shadow-scaled.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23682 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2013-04-12 at 2.33.51 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 15648 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Jul 7 17:23:39 2025 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 16:23:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator interface relay In-Reply-To: <2CDBB4B0-85AD-4F54-AC63-91B85DAD9C66@energycraft.com> References: <2CDBB4B0-85AD-4F54-AC63-91B85DAD9C66@energycraft.com> Message-ID: I am confused does you GT have a drop grid function? On Mon, Jul 7, 2025, 4:07 PM Ryan Harkins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > > > PSP Products! SAK-60 model for up to 60A. Easy setup, detects frequency > of generator, and drops the inverter out for you. Doesn’t require direct > wiring to the gen. > > [image: SAK-60-Angle-Shadow-scaled.jpeg] > > SAK-60 Wireless Load Management > > pspproducts.com > > > > > > > > *Ryan HarkinsNABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ /Project > Manager* > > > [image: Screen Shot 2013-04-12 at 2.33.51 PM.png] > > > Synergy Renewable Systems, LLC > PO Box 58 > Stoughton, WI 53589 > PH: (608) 712-7862 > > See our new website! > www.synergyrenewablesystems.com > > > > > > > On Jul 7, 2025, at 3:33 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Wrenches > What are you using to drop AC to a GT inverter when a generator starts up? > I have a 40A rated contactor in place but it failed after 18 months. > The generator is not close to the inverters , so I ran a grid reference > circuit to the inverter location and installed the contactor there. > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SAK-60-Angle-Shadow-scaled.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23682 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2013-04-12 at 2.33.51 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 15648 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SAK-60-Angle-Shadow-scaled.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23682 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2013-04-12 at 2.33.51 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 15648 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com Mon Jul 7 17:48:19 2025 From: Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com (Poole, Jharen) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 21:48:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) In-Reply-To: References: <5236E072-8ECF-48A7-BD8E-83E18F13F617@gmail.com> Message-ID: In most cases I would expect the generator to be detected as we tend to start a generator manually in some of our in house testing and the inverter sees it as a generator and there is no sell back. Although with there being variability of generators out in the field there could be a chance encounter where you could run into a situation where the generator could be mistaken as the grid if you were to manually switch the generator in this setup compared to letting the inverter initiate the start of the generator. I would think of this as having a sure two-step way to make sure the inverter is interpreting the power that is received by the generator as the actual generator. The first step is to have the inverter test the power being received through the grid terminal to determine if the power is from a generator or the grid. If the generator happens to make it pass this initial test from the inverter and is still seen as a grid, then the two-wire start is the second confirming factor to truly make sure the power is coming from the generator. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:d73acd52-41a4-4305-87d5-012b9d135cf6] ________________________________ From: Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, July 7, 2025 3:24 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Poole, Jharen Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) Caution: This email is from an external source. That is interesting. What happens if someone starts the generator manually and manually engages the transfer switch to the generator position? Will the inverter still detect it as a generator, or will that only happen if the 2-wire start is being called for? Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Jul 7, 2025 at 4:07 PM Poole, Jharen via RE-wrenches > wrote: For a setup such as this, it is recommended that the generator is started using the inverter’s 2-wire start function rather than a manual startup. We also want to make sure that the grid signal, gen signal, and gen connected to grid input settings are enabled on the inverter to ensure proper detection and operation. I wouldn’t recommend using this setup on a manual start with large generators rated 45kW or higher and are hospital grade. These tend to produce extremely clean power and can mistakenly be identified as the utility grid, which can interfere with its ability to properly determine the source of the input and affect the system behavior. If you're using a typical residential generator with the recommended startup configuration, and the generator is called upon, the inverter will display a generator icon on the screen once it detects generator power (on the latest firmware). Although the “grid sell” setting remains enabled, the inverter is programmed to prevent power from being exported back to the generator. During a grid outage, it will operate using generator power, and once utility power is restored and detected, the inverter will automatically resume normal grid sell operations. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:ii_197e68ebc1a5e53039b1] ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jay via RE-wrenches > Sent: Thursday, July 3, 2025 4:11 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jay > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) Caution: This email is from an external source. Sounds like what they want the sol ark can’t do. I think either the eg4 flexboss and MID or the AIO might work. On Jul 3, 2025, at 2:33 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote:  That might be their recommendation, but it doesn't stop someone from manually starting the generator when the utility is down. Their wiring diagram leave a lot to be desired in terms of how program the system in this configuration. Even if they strongly recommend that in webinars, it still isn't clear to me if Grid Sell is automatically disabled when the 2-wire start relay is closed. Honestly, I wouldn't trust the answer from a random tech support agent, especially with various firmwares floating around. This is just another example of poorly documented and ambiguous operational control that plagues all of the all-in-one inverters. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jul 3, 2025, 4:14 PM Lloyd Hoffstatter > wrote: Sol-Ark strongly recommends only using a line side generator under inverter 2 wire control and with AC coupled inverters off, per several webinars. Best regards, Lloyd I’m lLlCOGet Outlook fo ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > Sent: Thursday, July 3, 2025 3:10:07 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K Gen on Grid Terminal (with GTBB) This guy wants the smart load capability, too. Jason On Thu, Jul 3, 2025 at 8:42 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: It’s got generator input terminals. Why not use them for the generator? On Jul 3, 2025, at 5:05 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote:  The attached wiring diagram from the manual shows both a generator and grid connected to the Sol-Ark Grid input with a transfer switch to select between grid and generator. Question: If you program the inverter for GEN on Grid Input and allow Grid Sell, how would the inverter know what the input source is and prevent selling to the generator inadvertently? I suppose if it is an automatic transfer switch and the two wire start is called for, the inverter might stop grid selling when calling for the generator (but I'm not sure if that's the case). In any case, that's not a failsafe solution because the generator could be started and selected manually with the transfer switch and the inverter would not know it. I have someone insisting that Sol-Ark supports this configuration with Grid Sell enabled. I can't imagine that is the case. At a minimum, it would be bad practice. In my opinion, the interface should disallow Grid Sell altogether when GEN on Grid Input is selected. Maybe it's already doing that internally, but it isn't clear at all from the interface or the manual. Of course, the Off-Grid section of the manual does tell you to not use the Grid Sell option. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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Name: Outlook-upcxtoft.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: Outlook-upcxtoft.png URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon Jul 7 21:49:56 2025 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2025 01:49:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator interface relay In-Reply-To: References: <2CDBB4B0-85AD-4F54-AC63-91B85DAD9C66@energycraft.com> Message-ID: The GT inverter does not have this function. I just need a relay to drop L1 or L2 to the inverter when the generator starts. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jul 7, 2025, at 3:25 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote:  I am confused does you GT have a drop grid function? On Mon, Jul 7, 2025, 4:07 PM Ryan Harkins via RE-wrenches > wrote: PSP Products! SAK-60 model for up to 60A. Easy setup, detects frequency of generator, and drops the inverter out for you. Doesn’t require direct wiring to the gen. SAK-60 Wireless Load Management pspproducts.com Ryan Harkins NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ / Project Manager Synergy Renewable Systems, LLC PO Box 58 Stoughton, WI 53589 PH: (608) 712-7862 See our new website! www.synergyrenewablesystems.com On Jul 7, 2025, at 3:33 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: Wrenches What are you using to drop AC to a GT inverter when a generator starts up? I have a 40A rated contactor in place but it failed after 18 months. The generator is not close to the inverters , so I ran a grid reference circuit to the inverter location and installed the contactor there. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SAK-60-Angle-Shadow-scaled.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23682 bytes Desc: SAK-60-Angle-Shadow-scaled.jpeg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2013-04-12 at 2.33.51 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 15648 bytes Desc: Screen Shot 2013-04-12 at 2.33.51 PM.png URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Mon Jul 7 21:51:42 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2025 18:51:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator interface relay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9BEE7A06-7DF7-480E-8D15-E4983E7F500D@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Jul 8 09:25:59 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2025 09:25:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator interface relay In-Reply-To: References: <2CDBB4B0-85AD-4F54-AC63-91B85DAD9C66@energycraft.com> Message-ID: A 240 V coil, block relay works for this. Connect the coil wires to the output L1 and L2 of the generator. Run the AC input between the common and the N/C terminal. When the generator starts, the relay opens and the power is off. _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-07-07 21:49, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > The GT inverter does not have this function. I just need a relay to > drop L1 or L2 to the inverter when the generator starts. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > >> On Jul 7, 2025, at 3:25 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches >> wrote: > > I am confused does you GT have a drop grid function? > > On Mon, Jul 7, 2025, 4:07 PM Ryan Harkins via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > PSP Products! SAK-60 model for up to 60A. Easy setup, detects > frequency of generator, and drops the inverter out for you. Doesn't > require direct wiring to the gen. > > > > SAK-60 Wireless Load Management [1] > pspproducts.com [1] > > Ryan Harkins > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional(tm) / > Project Manager > > > > Synergy Renewable Systems, LLC > PO Box 58 > Stoughton, WI 53589 > PH: (608) 712-7862 > > See our new website! > www.synergyrenewablesystems.com [2] > > On Jul 7, 2025, at 3:33 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Wrenches > What are you using to drop AC to a GT inverter when a generator starts > up? > I have a 40A rated contactor in place but it failed after 18 months. > The generator is not close to the inverters , so I ran a grid reference > circuit to the inverter location and installed the contactor there. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [3] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [3] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://www.pspproducts.com/load-management/sak-60-wireless-load-management/ [2] http://www.synergyrenewablesystems.com [3] http://re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 9 19:39:38 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 19:39:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is there any update on functionality to use the AIO's AGS when the generator is on the Grid input? This is really needed. The fact that the generator smart load input doesn't turn the inverters on and charge the batteries when a generator is present after a low voltage cutout is really problematic. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, May 14, 2025, 11:28 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > When using the AC input the substitute to use the AGS is to use an > external AGS Start relay. There are many customers using big > generators through the 100 Amp input with no issues. There is a request to > modify the AGS to work with the 100 amp AC in. > > On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:09 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Thank you for this information. Regarding the statement, "You can fully >> use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is available at all >> times, but you will lose the AGS..." >> >> I don't think MNS tech support knows this. I'm pretty sure Rick told me >> no, and I know that Ronald unequivocally told me it was not allowed. >> >> What if the generator was connected to the grid input, but you still >> programmed the generator Smart Load output for a generator, would the AGS >> work in that case? Or if there is "Grid" voltage when the generator starts, >> would that cause the AGS to disengage and then the process would repeat >> itself in a loop? >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 10:57 AM William Bryce < >> wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: >> >>> Everyone, Please forgive MNS for not promptly responding to the >>> questions. >>> >>> Midnite Solar does not currently have an official poster for the >>> Wrenches List. Per the rules of the list, MNS is working to get a new Rep >>> to work with the installers as we always have. >>> >>> To address the questions that were fielded: >>> >>> The solar array will continue to power the system and dark start the >>> inverter if needed. >>> >>> >>> >>> If you use the machine you can test. Just turn off ALL the Power, >>> including the DC in from the battery. The screen will be dark and when you >>> turn on the PV input the machine will go into standby. >>> >>> >>> >>> If the machine shuts down due to a LVCO then it will auto restart (Via >>> PV input) UNLESS the "Min Initiation Startup (off Grid)" setting is not >>> reached. It will charge the battery until that setting is reached then turn >>> on the inverter. >>> >>> >>> If the Shutdown was because of a PV Insulation *Fault* or some other >>> critical ESS fault it will not restart until that issue is corrected. You >>> can blame that on the UL code writers as it is REQUIRED to get the UL >>> certifications. >>> >>> >>> >>> We also do full generator passthrough just like all other AIO's. And yes >>> as pointed out several times on the forum the relay for the generator is >>> not closed, as the inverter qualifies the generator before it closes. The >>> reason is that we can use the PV input and the generator at the same time. >>> But, it is monitored so you do not blow us the generator if the PV exceeds >>> the Gen input and the load or charging drops. Is this perfect? No, it needs >>> some work. The current AGS is basic and needs work. >>> >>> >>> You can fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is >>> available at all times, but you will lose the AGS. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Everyone at MNS is taking notes of all the issues with the Current AIO's >>> (all brands including our AIO), and the state of China made / China >>> supported inverters. >>> >>> >>> MNS will be looking to reset the market soon with a New, US Made, >>> Designed, and supported AIO (not just assembled from China parts like some >>> others with the same firmware). Using proven SiC Fet technology (Rosie >>> inverter technology). With a full set of controls for LA batteries, and >>> Generator, just like in the old days. Touch Screen programming, and self >>> hosted web server remote accesses and control, not data sent to the cloud. >>> If you worry about support, and security, then this inverter will address >>> these needs. All the firmware is written in house, PCB boards populated >>> inhouse, and components origins verified. >>> >>> >>> >>> We will not say more because of MNS bad reputation of *announcing and >>> not delivering*, so in the next 6 months, we will have something great >>> to offer. We are going back to our Roots (Trace, Outback, and Magnum, >>> can all be linked back to this team). >>> >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> >>> On behalf of Midnite Solar >>> >>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out >>>> of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. >>>> >>>> The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with >>>> a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator >>>> input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able >>>> to charge the battery without user intervention. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jason, >>>>> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter >>>>> gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed >>>>> loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite >>>>> AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with >>>>> that yet. >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot >>>>>> Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or >>>>>> otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then >>>>>> takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would >>>>>> be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but >>>>>> for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming >>>>>> back. >>>>>> >>>>>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really >>>>>> not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure >>>>>> there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least >>>>>> you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to >>>>>> get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>>>>> >>>>>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, >>>>>> 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned >>>>>> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >>>>>> >>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid clients. >>>>>> In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in the >>>>>> background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the next >>>>>> day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> >>>>>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always >>>>>> recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply >>>>>> to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my >>>>>> aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >>>>>> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >>>>>> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>>>>> >>>>>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and >>>>>> wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the >>>>>> offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing >>>>>> like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of >>>>>> new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will >>>>>> Robinson) >>>>>> >>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and send >>>>>> generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits, >>>>>> sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical >>>>>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the >>>>>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default >>>>>> function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage >>>>>> on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the >>>>>> inverter back on automatically. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the gen >>>>>>> to bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in >>>>>>> the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike >>>>>>> some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>>>>>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>>>>>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>>>>>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>>>>>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>>>>>> in my limited experience. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >>>>>>> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >>>>>>> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >>>>>>> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>>>>>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>>>>>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>>>>>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>>>>>> battery manually is no easy task. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in >>>>>>> an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn >>>>>>> the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON >>>>>>> somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And >>>>>>> since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, >>>>>>> and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can >>>>>>> even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is >>>>>>> too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter >>>>>>> doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>>>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of >>>>>>> the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will >>>>>>> both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >>>>>>> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >>>>>>> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >>>>>>> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >>>>>>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>>>>>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is >>>>>>> met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong >>>>>>> about how this works? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 08:19:13 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 06:19:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, This seems like a big problem. Curious if you have found a manual work around for this? Is it possible to force the inverter on, even briefly to start accepting a charge from the generator? It would be nice if the gen relay would latch to incoming voltage but the hardware may not allow that. On Wed, Jul 9, 2025 at 5:40 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Is there any update on functionality to use the AIO's AGS when the > generator is on the Grid input? > > This is really needed. The fact that the generator smart load input > doesn't turn the inverters on and charge the batteries when a generator is > present after a low voltage cutout is really problematic. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Wed, May 14, 2025, 11:28 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> When using the AC input the substitute to use the AGS is to use an >> external AGS Start relay. There are many customers using big >> generators through the 100 Amp input with no issues. There is a request to >> modify the AGS to work with the 100 amp AC in. >> >> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:09 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Thank you for this information. Regarding the statement, "You can fully >>> use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is available at all >>> times, but you will lose the AGS..." >>> >>> I don't think MNS tech support knows this. I'm pretty sure Rick told me >>> no, and I know that Ronald unequivocally told me it was not allowed. >>> >>> What if the generator was connected to the grid input, but you still >>> programmed the generator Smart Load output for a generator, would the AGS >>> work in that case? Or if there is "Grid" voltage when the generator starts, >>> would that cause the AGS to disengage and then the process would repeat >>> itself in a loop? >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 10:57 AM William Bryce < >>> wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Everyone, Please forgive MNS for not promptly responding to the >>>> questions. >>>> >>>> Midnite Solar does not currently have an official poster for the >>>> Wrenches List. Per the rules of the list, MNS is working to get a new Rep >>>> to work with the installers as we always have. >>>> >>>> To address the questions that were fielded: >>>> >>>> The solar array will continue to power the system and dark start the >>>> inverter if needed. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If you use the machine you can test. Just turn off ALL the Power, >>>> including the DC in from the battery. The screen will be dark and when you >>>> turn on the PV input the machine will go into standby. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If the machine shuts down due to a LVCO then it will auto restart (Via >>>> PV input) UNLESS the "Min Initiation Startup (off Grid)" setting is not >>>> reached. It will charge the battery until that setting is reached then turn >>>> on the inverter. >>>> >>>> >>>> If the Shutdown was because of a PV Insulation *Fault* or some other >>>> critical ESS fault it will not restart until that issue is corrected. You >>>> can blame that on the UL code writers as it is REQUIRED to get the UL >>>> certifications. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We also do full generator passthrough just like all other AIO's. And >>>> yes as pointed out several times on the forum the relay for the >>>> generator is not closed, as the inverter qualifies the generator before it >>>> closes. The reason is that we can use the PV input and the generator at the >>>> same time. But, it is monitored so you do not blow us the generator if the >>>> PV exceeds the Gen input and the load or charging drops. Is this perfect? >>>> No, it needs some work. The current AGS is basic and needs work. >>>> >>>> >>>> You can fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is >>>> available at all times, but you will lose the AGS. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Everyone at MNS is taking notes of all the issues with the Current >>>> AIO's (all brands including our AIO), and the state of China made / China >>>> supported inverters. >>>> >>>> >>>> MNS will be looking to reset the market soon with a New, US Made, >>>> Designed, and supported AIO (not just assembled from China parts like some >>>> others with the same firmware). Using proven SiC Fet technology (Rosie >>>> inverter technology). With a full set of controls for LA batteries, and >>>> Generator, just like in the old days. Touch Screen programming, and self >>>> hosted web server remote accesses and control, not data sent to the cloud. >>>> If you worry about support, and security, then this inverter will address >>>> these needs. All the firmware is written in house, PCB boards populated >>>> inhouse, and components origins verified. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We will not say more because of MNS bad reputation of *announcing and >>>> not delivering*, so in the next 6 months, we will have something great >>>> to offer. We are going back to our Roots (Trace, Outback, and >>>> Magnum, can all be linked back to this team). >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> >>>> On behalf of Midnite Solar >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed (i.e.out >>>>> of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. >>>>> >>>>> The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled with >>>>> a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The generator >>>>> input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it should be able >>>>> to charge the battery without user intervention. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jason, >>>>>> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter >>>>>> gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed >>>>>> loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite >>>>>> AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with >>>>>> that yet. >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Dave >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot >>>>>>> Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or >>>>>>> otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then >>>>>>> takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would >>>>>>> be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but >>>>>>> for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming >>>>>>> back. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really >>>>>>> not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure >>>>>>> there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least >>>>>>> you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to >>>>>>> get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, >>>>>>> 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned >>>>>>> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid >>>>>>> clients. In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in >>>>>>> the background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the >>>>>>> next day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always >>>>>>> recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply >>>>>>> to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my >>>>>>> aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >>>>>>> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >>>>>>> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and >>>>>>> wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the >>>>>>> offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing >>>>>>> like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of >>>>>>> new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will >>>>>>> Robinson) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and >>>>>>> send generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For >>>>>>> retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical >>>>>>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the >>>>>>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default >>>>>>> function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage >>>>>>> on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the >>>>>>> inverter back on automatically. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>>>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the >>>>>>>> gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in >>>>>>>> the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike >>>>>>>> some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>>>>>>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>>>>>>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>>>>>>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>>>>>>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>>>>>>> in my limited experience. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >>>>>>>> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >>>>>>>> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >>>>>>>> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>>>>>>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>>>>>>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>>>>>>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>>>>>>> battery manually is no easy task. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is in >>>>>>>> an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn >>>>>>>> the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON >>>>>>>> somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And >>>>>>>> since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, >>>>>>>> and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can >>>>>>>> even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is >>>>>>>> too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter >>>>>>>> doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>>>>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of >>>>>>>> the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will >>>>>>>> both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >>>>>>>> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >>>>>>>> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >>>>>>>> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >>>>>>>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>>>>>>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is >>>>>>>> met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong >>>>>>>> about how this works? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 10 08:49:17 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 08:49:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Honestly, I'm not sure exactly how it works myself. My understanding is that if the inverter is OFF due to a low voltage disconnect or otherwise, incoming voltage on the generator smart load port will not close the relay and start to charge the battery and power the loads. That defeats the purpose of a dedicated generator input. I do not have a workaround. On one site, I have the battery BMS controlling generator start/stop, with the generator on the AIO's grid inputs. This is less than ideal, but with no closed-loop communication with the inverter for this battery, it's the best option right now. I would love to have the AIO start the generator at a voltage that is close to 20%, but then also have the battery AGS start the generator as a failsafe if the SOC becomes dangerously low (if the inverter doesn't trigger the AGS based on voltage early enough). Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jul 10, 2025 at 8:19 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > This seems like a big problem. Curious if you have found a manual work > around for this? > > Is it possible to force the inverter on, even briefly to start accepting a > charge from the generator? It would be nice if the gen relay would latch > to incoming voltage but the hardware may not allow that. > > > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2025 at 5:40 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Is there any update on functionality to use the AIO's AGS when the >> generator is on the Grid input? >> >> This is really needed. The fact that the generator smart load input >> doesn't turn the inverters on and charge the batteries when a generator is >> present after a low voltage cutout is really problematic. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 11:28 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> When using the AC input the substitute to use the AGS is to use an >>> external AGS Start relay. There are many customers using big >>> generators through the 100 Amp input with no issues. There is a request to >>> modify the AGS to work with the 100 amp AC in. >>> >>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:09 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Thank you for this information. Regarding the statement, "You can fully >>>> use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is available at all >>>> times, but you will lose the AGS..." >>>> >>>> I don't think MNS tech support knows this. I'm pretty sure Rick told me >>>> no, and I know that Ronald unequivocally told me it was not allowed. >>>> >>>> What if the generator was connected to the grid input, but you still >>>> programmed the generator Smart Load output for a generator, would the AGS >>>> work in that case? Or if there is "Grid" voltage when the generator starts, >>>> would that cause the AGS to disengage and then the process would repeat >>>> itself in a loop? >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 10:57 AM William Bryce < >>>> wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Everyone, Please forgive MNS for not promptly responding to the >>>>> questions. >>>>> >>>>> Midnite Solar does not currently have an official poster for the >>>>> Wrenches List. Per the rules of the list, MNS is working to get a new Rep >>>>> to work with the installers as we always have. >>>>> >>>>> To address the questions that were fielded: >>>>> >>>>> The solar array will continue to power the system and dark start the >>>>> inverter if needed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If you use the machine you can test. Just turn off ALL the Power, >>>>> including the DC in from the battery. The screen will be dark and when you >>>>> turn on the PV input the machine will go into standby. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If the machine shuts down due to a LVCO then it will auto restart (Via >>>>> PV input) UNLESS the "Min Initiation Startup (off Grid)" setting is not >>>>> reached. It will charge the battery until that setting is reached then turn >>>>> on the inverter. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If the Shutdown was because of a PV Insulation *Fault* or some other >>>>> critical ESS fault it will not restart until that issue is corrected. You >>>>> can blame that on the UL code writers as it is REQUIRED to get the UL >>>>> certifications. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We also do full generator passthrough just like all other AIO's. And >>>>> yes as pointed out several times on the forum the relay for the >>>>> generator is not closed, as the inverter qualifies the generator before it >>>>> closes. The reason is that we can use the PV input and the generator at the >>>>> same time. But, it is monitored so you do not blow us the generator if the >>>>> PV exceeds the Gen input and the load or charging drops. Is this perfect? >>>>> No, it needs some work. The current AGS is basic and needs work. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You can fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is >>>>> available at all times, but you will lose the AGS. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Everyone at MNS is taking notes of all the issues with the Current >>>>> AIO's (all brands including our AIO), and the state of China made / China >>>>> supported inverters. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> MNS will be looking to reset the market soon with a New, US Made, >>>>> Designed, and supported AIO (not just assembled from China parts like some >>>>> others with the same firmware). Using proven SiC Fet technology (Rosie >>>>> inverter technology). With a full set of controls for LA batteries, and >>>>> Generator, just like in the old days. Touch Screen programming, and self >>>>> hosted web server remote accesses and control, not data sent to the cloud. >>>>> If you worry about support, and security, then this inverter will address >>>>> these needs. All the firmware is written in house, PCB boards populated >>>>> inhouse, and components origins verified. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We will not say more because of MNS bad reputation of *announcing and >>>>> not delivering*, so in the next 6 months, we will have something >>>>> great to offer. We are going back to our Roots (Trace, Outback, and >>>>> Magnum, can all be linked back to this team). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On behalf of Midnite Solar >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed >>>>>> (i.e.out of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. >>>>>> >>>>>> The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled >>>>>> with a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The >>>>>> generator input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it >>>>>> should be able to charge the battery without user intervention. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason, >>>>>>> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter >>>>>>> gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed >>>>>>> loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite >>>>>>> AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with >>>>>>> that yet. >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot >>>>>>>> Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or >>>>>>>> otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then >>>>>>>> takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would >>>>>>>> be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but >>>>>>>> for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming >>>>>>>> back. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its really >>>>>>>> not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. I'm sure >>>>>>>> there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At least >>>>>>>> you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't have to >>>>>>>> get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App updated, >>>>>>>> 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned >>>>>>>> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid >>>>>>>> clients. In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in >>>>>>>> the background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the >>>>>>>> next day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>>>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>>>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>>>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>>>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always >>>>>>>> recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply >>>>>>>> to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my >>>>>>>> aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >>>>>>>> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >>>>>>>> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and >>>>>>>> wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the >>>>>>>> offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing >>>>>>>> like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of >>>>>>>> new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will >>>>>>>> Robinson) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and >>>>>>>> send generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For >>>>>>>> retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical >>>>>>>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the >>>>>>>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default >>>>>>>> function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage >>>>>>>> on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the >>>>>>>> inverter back on automatically. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>>>>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the >>>>>>>>> gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in >>>>>>>>> the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike >>>>>>>>> some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>>>>>>>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>>>>>>>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>>>>>>>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>>>>>>>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>>>>>>>> in my limited experience. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the low >>>>>>>>> voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter ON >>>>>>>>> for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but since >>>>>>>>> the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>>>>>>>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>>>>>>>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>>>>>>>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>>>>>>>> battery manually is no easy task. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is >>>>>>>>> in an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn >>>>>>>>> the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON >>>>>>>>> somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And >>>>>>>>> since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, >>>>>>>>> and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can >>>>>>>>> even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is >>>>>>>>> too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter >>>>>>>>> doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>>>>>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one of >>>>>>>>> the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will >>>>>>>>> both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is on, >>>>>>>>> regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or Generator >>>>>>>>> input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This is >>>>>>>>> because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, and >>>>>>>>> they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>>>>>>>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff is >>>>>>>>> met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong >>>>>>>>> about how this works? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Jul 10 09:38:53 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 09:38:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Dark Mode Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone know what it means when a Sol-Ark display goes into dark mode? Instead of the normal white background and coloring, the background goes to black, and the arrows are purple. I've talked to tech support, and all they would tell me is that it is "not good". We reset the dongle and updated firmware, and it went away, and I assumed that things were fine. But overnight, the dark mode came back. This has happened each night since the inverter was first turned on on Tuesday this week. Tech support wants me to reset it again, but I can only assume that the dark mode will come back. The customer was there for the installation over the past few days, but is not going to be there for a little while to tell me if the dark mode comes back. There is no indication on the monitoring site that this is happening, and the inverter otherwise seems to be working completely normally. But since tech support is not being particularly forthcoming with what this indicates, I thought I would see if anyone here has seen this in the past. Also, this is a system upgrade, and we are leaving the 1 year old lead acid batteries in place. The old setup had the battery negative from the battery box connected to ground in the main service panel. Does anyone know whether leaving it like this will cause any issues? Thanks! -Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 10:01:47 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 08:01:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Dark Mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2BA03AC8-51E2-4605-B2A8-96AF6C528F7B@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 10:23:07 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 07:23:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Dark Mode In-Reply-To: <2BA03AC8-51E2-4605-B2A8-96AF6C528F7B@gmail.com> References: <2BA03AC8-51E2-4605-B2A8-96AF6C528F7B@gmail.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Thu Jul 10 11:29:30 2025 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland - RES) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 05:29:30 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Dark Mode In-Reply-To: <2BA03AC8-51E2-4605-B2A8-96AF6C528F7B@gmail.com> References: <2BA03AC8-51E2-4605-B2A8-96AF6C528F7B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9A50862D-177C-45FC-9FB3-66E09DB314CB@renewablenergy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com Thu Jul 10 12:03:05 2025 From: Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com (Poole, Jharen) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 16:03:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Dark Mode In-Reply-To: <9A50862D-177C-45FC-9FB3-66E09DB314CB@renewablenergy.com> References: <2BA03AC8-51E2-4605-B2A8-96AF6C528F7B@gmail.com> <9A50862D-177C-45FC-9FB3-66E09DB314CB@renewablenergy.com> Message-ID: Hello Dave, We have a firmware update available that should resolve this issue. Please contact our technical support team to have the negative screen removed from the inverter. While the inverter should continue operating in its current state, we recommend updating it as soon as possible. Running the inverter with this condition long-term may lead to unforeseen issues. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:d001ce88-2c3c-486b-bfb8-b86c3564df2d] ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Roland - RES via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2025 10:29 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: roland at renewablenergy.com ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Dark Mode Caution: This email is from an external source. This is an issue with there newest module si believe SN starting with 24 and on, you just need to call them for a firmware update to resolve issue. [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/R2pJqufzOLnyX7mZh5-xO1OEIH4lQB3r3iSLTQTEqvrIu-49s-fpYbAu3ULVxV-xeY78oSboKRb8RrrU5ZLCk5Mu4D-srDEsQrNBafl0FFwF4Yt6R3PmdIshOxSDcBolRWFLJYuVRIrXqZFlv9j-avA] Roland Shackelford President / Owner NABCEP PVIP #091209-162 Office 808.775.7410 Mobile 808.938.9239 Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc. " Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust, there will be an atmosphere for success." - Sadhguru On Jul 10, 2025, at 4:03 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote:  Faulty display? On Jul 10, 2025, at 7:39 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote:  Hi All, Does anyone know what it means when a Sol-Ark display goes into dark mode? Instead of the normal white background and coloring, the background goes to black, and the arrows are purple. I've talked to tech support, and all they would tell me is that it is "not good". We reset the dongle and updated firmware, and it went away, and I assumed that things were fine. But overnight, the dark mode came back. This has happened each night since the inverter was first turned on on Tuesday this week. Tech support wants me to reset it again, but I can only assume that the dark mode will come back. The customer was there for the installation over the past few days, but is not going to be there for a little while to tell me if the dark mode comes back. There is no indication on the monitoring site that this is happening, and the inverter otherwise seems to be working completely normally. But since tech support is not being particularly forthcoming with what this indicates, I thought I would see if anyone here has seen this in the past. Also, this is a system upgrade, and we are leaving the 1 year old lead acid batteries in place. The old setup had the battery negative from the battery box connected to ground in the main service panel. Does anyone know whether leaving it like this will cause any issues? Thanks! -Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-acvnk5ol.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: Outlook-acvnk5ol.png URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Thu Jul 10 12:03:42 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 12:03:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The "Force Charge " function will start the charger from the generator port or the Grid port (if Grid charging is enabled) It might take up to 5 min to qualify the power but you can manually start a charge cycle anytime with this function. On Thu, Jul 10, 2025 at 8:50 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Honestly, I'm not sure exactly how it works myself. My understanding is > that if the inverter is OFF due to a low voltage disconnect or otherwise, > incoming voltage on the generator smart load port will not close the relay > and start to charge the battery and power the loads. That defeats > the purpose of a dedicated generator input. > > I do not have a workaround. On one site, I have the battery BMS > controlling generator start/stop, with the generator on the AIO's grid > inputs. This is less than ideal, but with no closed-loop communication with > the inverter for this battery, it's the best option right now. I would > love to have the AIO start the generator at a voltage that is close to > 20%, but then also have the battery AGS start the generator as a failsafe > if the SOC becomes dangerously low (if the inverter doesn't trigger the AGS > based on voltage early enough). > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Jul 10, 2025 at 8:19 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> This seems like a big problem. Curious if you have found a manual work >> around for this? >> >> Is it possible to force the inverter on, even briefly to start accepting >> a charge from the generator? It would be nice if the gen relay would latch >> to incoming voltage but the hardware may not allow that. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 9, 2025 at 5:40 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Is there any update on functionality to use the AIO's AGS when the >>> generator is on the Grid input? >>> >>> This is really needed. The fact that the generator smart load input >>> doesn't turn the inverters on and charge the batteries when a generator is >>> present after a low voltage cutout is really problematic. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 11:28 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> When using the AC input the substitute to use the AGS is to use an >>>> external AGS Start relay. There are many customers using big >>>> generators through the 100 Amp input with no issues. There is a request to >>>> modify the AGS to work with the 100 amp AC in. >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:09 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thank you for this information. Regarding the statement, "You can >>>>> fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is available at >>>>> all times, but you will lose the AGS..." >>>>> >>>>> I don't think MNS tech support knows this. I'm pretty sure Rick told >>>>> me no, and I know that Ronald unequivocally told me it was not allowed. >>>>> >>>>> What if the generator was connected to the grid input, but you still >>>>> programmed the generator Smart Load output for a generator, would the AGS >>>>> work in that case? Or if there is "Grid" voltage when the generator starts, >>>>> would that cause the AGS to disengage and then the process would repeat >>>>> itself in a loop? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 10:57 AM William Bryce < >>>>> wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Everyone, Please forgive MNS for not promptly responding to the >>>>>> questions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Midnite Solar does not currently have an official poster for the >>>>>> Wrenches List. Per the rules of the list, MNS is working to get a new Rep >>>>>> to work with the installers as we always have. >>>>>> >>>>>> To address the questions that were fielded: >>>>>> >>>>>> The solar array will continue to power the system and dark start the >>>>>> inverter if needed. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If you use the machine you can test. Just turn off ALL the Power, >>>>>> including the DC in from the battery. The screen will be dark and when you >>>>>> turn on the PV input the machine will go into standby. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If the machine shuts down due to a LVCO then it will auto restart >>>>>> (Via PV input) UNLESS the "Min Initiation Startup (off Grid)" setting is >>>>>> not reached. It will charge the battery until that setting is reached then >>>>>> turn on the inverter. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If the Shutdown was because of a PV Insulation *Fault* or some other >>>>>> critical ESS fault it will not restart until that issue is corrected. You >>>>>> can blame that on the UL code writers as it is REQUIRED to get the UL >>>>>> certifications. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> We also do full generator passthrough just like all other AIO's. And >>>>>> yes as pointed out several times on the forum the relay for the >>>>>> generator is not closed, as the inverter qualifies the generator before it >>>>>> closes. The reason is that we can use the PV input and the generator at the >>>>>> same time. But, it is monitored so you do not blow us the generator if the >>>>>> PV exceeds the Gen input and the load or charging drops. Is this perfect? >>>>>> No, it needs some work. The current AGS is basic and needs work. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You can fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is >>>>>> available at all times, but you will lose the AGS. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Everyone at MNS is taking notes of all the issues with the Current >>>>>> AIO's (all brands including our AIO), and the state of China made / China >>>>>> supported inverters. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> MNS will be looking to reset the market soon with a New, US Made, >>>>>> Designed, and supported AIO (not just assembled from China parts like some >>>>>> others with the same firmware). Using proven SiC Fet technology (Rosie >>>>>> inverter technology). With a full set of controls for LA batteries, and >>>>>> Generator, just like in the old days. Touch Screen programming, and self >>>>>> hosted web server remote accesses and control, not data sent to the cloud. >>>>>> If you worry about support, and security, then this inverter will address >>>>>> these needs. All the firmware is written in house, PCB boards populated >>>>>> inhouse, and components origins verified. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> We will not say more because of MNS bad reputation of *announcing >>>>>> and not delivering*, so in the next 6 months, we will have something >>>>>> great to offer. We are going back to our Roots (Trace, Outback, and >>>>>> Magnum, can all be linked back to this team). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On behalf of Midnite Solar >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed >>>>>>> (i.e.out of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled >>>>>>> with a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The >>>>>>> generator input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it >>>>>>> should be able to charge the battery without user intervention. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason, >>>>>>>> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the >>>>>>>> inverter gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have >>>>>>>> closed loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first >>>>>>>> Midnite AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work >>>>>>>> with that yet. >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot >>>>>>>>> Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or >>>>>>>>> otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then >>>>>>>>> takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would >>>>>>>>> be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but >>>>>>>>> for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming >>>>>>>>> back. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its >>>>>>>>> really not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. >>>>>>>>> I'm sure there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At >>>>>>>>> least you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't >>>>>>>>> have to get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App >>>>>>>>> updated, 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned >>>>>>>>> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid >>>>>>>>> clients. In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in >>>>>>>>> the background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the >>>>>>>>> next day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>>>>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>>>>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>>>>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>>>>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always >>>>>>>>> recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply >>>>>>>>> to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my >>>>>>>>> aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >>>>>>>>> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >>>>>>>>> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, and >>>>>>>>> wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for the >>>>>>>>> offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing >>>>>>>>> like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing amount of >>>>>>>>> new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will >>>>>>>>> Robinson) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and >>>>>>>>> send generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For >>>>>>>>> retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical >>>>>>>>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the >>>>>>>>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default >>>>>>>>> function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage >>>>>>>>> on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the >>>>>>>>> inverter back on automatically. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>>>>>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the >>>>>>>>>> gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>>>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw in >>>>>>>>>> the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike >>>>>>>>>> some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>>>>>>>>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>>>>>>>>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>>>>>>>>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>>>>>>>>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>>>>>>>>> in my limited experience. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the >>>>>>>>>> low voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter >>>>>>>>>> ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but >>>>>>>>>> since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>>>>>>>>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>>>>>>>>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>>>>>>>>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>>>>>>>>> battery manually is no easy task. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is >>>>>>>>>> in an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn >>>>>>>>>> the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON >>>>>>>>>> somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And >>>>>>>>>> since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, >>>>>>>>>> and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can >>>>>>>>>> even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is >>>>>>>>>> too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter >>>>>>>>>> doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>>>>>>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one >>>>>>>>>> of the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV >>>>>>>>>> will both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is >>>>>>>>>> on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or >>>>>>>>>> Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This >>>>>>>>>> is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, >>>>>>>>>> and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>>>>>>>>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff >>>>>>>>>> is met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong >>>>>>>>>> about how this works? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 10 12:09:06 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 12:09:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Generator Functionality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, explaining that to an end user isn't ideal. If the generator is started manually, it should just work... always... without settings changes. That's the big problem I see here. The only way around that seems to be using the Grid input, but if that doesn't work with AGS, it's often not a viable solution. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jul 10, 2025 at 12:04 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The "Force Charge " function will start the charger from the > generator port or the Grid port (if Grid charging is enabled) It might take > up to 5 min to qualify the power but you can manually start a charge cycle > anytime with this function. > > On Thu, Jul 10, 2025 at 8:50 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Honestly, I'm not sure exactly how it works myself. My understanding is >> that if the inverter is OFF due to a low voltage disconnect or otherwise, >> incoming voltage on the generator smart load port will not close the relay >> and start to charge the battery and power the loads. That defeats >> the purpose of a dedicated generator input. >> >> I do not have a workaround. On one site, I have the battery BMS >> controlling generator start/stop, with the generator on the AIO's grid >> inputs. This is less than ideal, but with no closed-loop communication with >> the inverter for this battery, it's the best option right now. I would >> love to have the AIO start the generator at a voltage that is close to >> 20%, but then also have the battery AGS start the generator as a failsafe >> if the SOC becomes dangerously low (if the inverter doesn't trigger the AGS >> based on voltage early enough). >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 10, 2025 at 8:19 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> This seems like a big problem. Curious if you have found a manual work >>> around for this? >>> >>> Is it possible to force the inverter on, even briefly to start accepting >>> a charge from the generator? It would be nice if the gen relay would latch >>> to incoming voltage but the hardware may not allow that. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 9, 2025 at 5:40 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Is there any update on functionality to use the AIO's AGS when the >>>> generator is on the Grid input? >>>> >>>> This is really needed. The fact that the generator smart load input >>>> doesn't turn the inverters on and charge the batteries when a generator is >>>> present after a low voltage cutout is really problematic. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 11:28 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> When using the AC input the substitute to use the AGS is to use an >>>>> external AGS Start relay. There are many customers using big >>>>> generators through the 100 Amp input with no issues. There is a request to >>>>> modify the AGS to work with the 100 amp AC in. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:09 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for this information. Regarding the statement, "You can >>>>>> fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is available at >>>>>> all times, but you will lose the AGS..." >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't think MNS tech support knows this. I'm pretty sure Rick told >>>>>> me no, and I know that Ronald unequivocally told me it was not allowed. >>>>>> >>>>>> What if the generator was connected to the grid input, but you still >>>>>> programmed the generator Smart Load output for a generator, would the AGS >>>>>> work in that case? Or if there is "Grid" voltage when the generator starts, >>>>>> would that cause the AGS to disengage and then the process would repeat >>>>>> itself in a loop? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 10:57 AM William Bryce < >>>>>> wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Everyone, Please forgive MNS for not promptly responding to the >>>>>>> questions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Midnite Solar does not currently have an official poster for the >>>>>>> Wrenches List. Per the rules of the list, MNS is working to get a new Rep >>>>>>> to work with the installers as we always have. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To address the questions that were fielded: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The solar array will continue to power the system and dark start the >>>>>>> inverter if needed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you use the machine you can test. Just turn off ALL the Power, >>>>>>> including the DC in from the battery. The screen will be dark and when you >>>>>>> turn on the PV input the machine will go into standby. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If the machine shuts down due to a LVCO then it will auto restart >>>>>>> (Via PV input) UNLESS the "Min Initiation Startup (off Grid)" setting is >>>>>>> not reached. It will charge the battery until that setting is reached then >>>>>>> turn on the inverter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If the Shutdown was because of a PV Insulation *Fault* or some >>>>>>> other critical ESS fault it will not restart until that issue is corrected. >>>>>>> You can blame that on the UL code writers as it is REQUIRED to get the UL >>>>>>> certifications. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We also do full generator passthrough just like all other AIO's. And >>>>>>> yes as pointed out several times on the forum the relay for the >>>>>>> generator is not closed, as the inverter qualifies the generator before it >>>>>>> closes. The reason is that we can use the PV input and the generator at the >>>>>>> same time. But, it is monitored so you do not blow us the generator if the >>>>>>> PV exceeds the Gen input and the load or charging drops. Is this perfect? >>>>>>> No, it needs some work. The current AGS is basic and needs work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it >>>>>>> is available at all times, but you will lose the AGS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Everyone at MNS is taking notes of all the issues with the Current >>>>>>> AIO's (all brands including our AIO), and the state of China made / China >>>>>>> supported inverters. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> MNS will be looking to reset the market soon with a New, US Made, >>>>>>> Designed, and supported AIO (not just assembled from China parts like some >>>>>>> others with the same firmware). Using proven SiC Fet technology (Rosie >>>>>>> inverter technology). With a full set of controls for LA batteries, and >>>>>>> Generator, just like in the old days. Touch Screen programming, and self >>>>>>> hosted web server remote accesses and control, not data sent to the cloud. >>>>>>> If you worry about support, and security, then this inverter will address >>>>>>> these needs. All the firmware is written in house, PCB boards populated >>>>>>> inhouse, and components origins verified. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We will not say more because of MNS bad reputation of *announcing >>>>>>> and not delivering*, so in the next 6 months, we will have >>>>>>> something great to offer. We are going back to our Roots (Trace, >>>>>>> Outback, and Magnum, can all be linked back to this team). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On behalf of Midnite Solar >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed >>>>>>>> (i.e.out of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled >>>>>>>> with a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The >>>>>>>> generator input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it >>>>>>>> should be able to charge the battery without user intervention. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jason, >>>>>>>>> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the >>>>>>>>> inverter gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have >>>>>>>>> closed loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first >>>>>>>>> Midnite AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work >>>>>>>>> with that yet. >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot >>>>>>>>>> Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the array or >>>>>>>>>> otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS then >>>>>>>>>> takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This would >>>>>>>>>> be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but >>>>>>>>>> for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not coming >>>>>>>>>> back. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its >>>>>>>>>> really not clear what the different settings do, and how they interact. >>>>>>>>>> I'm sure there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech support. At >>>>>>>>>> least you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you don't >>>>>>>>>> have to get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App >>>>>>>>>> updated, 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming? Planned >>>>>>>>>> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its job..... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid >>>>>>>>>> clients. In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay alive in >>>>>>>>>> the background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes out the >>>>>>>>>> next day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>>>>>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>>>>>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>>>>>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>>>>>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always >>>>>>>>>> recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power supply >>>>>>>>>> to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my >>>>>>>>>> aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have enough >>>>>>>>>> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually the >>>>>>>>>> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, >>>>>>>>>> and wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery for >>>>>>>>>> the offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self >>>>>>>>>> healing like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an amazing >>>>>>>>>> amount of new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. (Danger >>>>>>>>>> Will Robinson) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and >>>>>>>>>> send generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For >>>>>>>>>> retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical >>>>>>>>>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the >>>>>>>>>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the default >>>>>>>>>> function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC voltage >>>>>>>>>> on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the >>>>>>>>>> inverter back on automatically. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>>>>>>>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the >>>>>>>>>>> gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>>>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>>>>>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>>>>>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw >>>>>>>>>>> in the logic for how generator integration works with this product. Unlike >>>>>>>>>>> some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid input in an >>>>>>>>>>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load breaker, which >>>>>>>>>>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This is >>>>>>>>>>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay that >>>>>>>>>>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems to work >>>>>>>>>>> in my limited experience. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the >>>>>>>>>>> low voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the inverter >>>>>>>>>>> ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, but >>>>>>>>>>> since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would have to >>>>>>>>>>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the current >>>>>>>>>>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS fails to >>>>>>>>>>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge the >>>>>>>>>>> battery manually is no easy task. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is >>>>>>>>>>> in an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn >>>>>>>>>>> the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned ON >>>>>>>>>>> somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. And >>>>>>>>>>> since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, non-intuitive, >>>>>>>>>>> and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if you can >>>>>>>>>>> even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the battery is >>>>>>>>>>> too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the inverter >>>>>>>>>>> doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>>>>>>>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one >>>>>>>>>>> of the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV >>>>>>>>>>> will both immediately power loads and start charging when the generator is >>>>>>>>>>> on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or >>>>>>>>>>> Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the loads. This >>>>>>>>>>> is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition is met, >>>>>>>>>>> and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the battery >>>>>>>>>>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff >>>>>>>>>>> is met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong >>>>>>>>>>> about how this works? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>>>>>>>>> work, try the other: >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Jul 10 12:32:18 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 12:32:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Dark Mode In-Reply-To: References: <2BA03AC8-51E2-4605-B2A8-96AF6C528F7B@gmail.com> <9A50862D-177C-45FC-9FB3-66E09DB314CB@renewablenergy.com> Message-ID: Hi Jharen, Is there a version of this firmware that is compatible with lead acid batteries? Yesterday, when I was talking to tech support, they did one firmware update for the dark screen, but then we updated again for the lead acid version of firmware. Could that second update have undone the fix for the dark screen? Thanks, Dave On Thu, Jul 10, 2025, 12:03 PM Poole, Jharen via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Dave, > > We have a firmware update available that should resolve this issue. Please > contact our technical support team to have the negative screen removed from > the inverter. While the inverter should continue operating in its current > state, we recommend updating it as soon as possible. Running the inverter > with this condition long-term may lead to unforeseen issues. > > > Best Regards, > > Jharen Poole > Applications Engineer II > 972-575-8875 > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Roland - RES via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, July 10, 2025 10:29 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* roland at renewablenergy.com ; RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Dark Mode > > Caution: This email is from an external source. > > > This is an issue with there newest module si believe SN starting with 24 > and on, you just need to call them for a firmware update to resolve issue. > > Roland Shackelford > > President / Owner > > NABCEP PVIP #091209-162 > > Office 808.775.7410 > > Mobile 808.938.9239 > > Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc. > > > " Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust, > there will be an atmosphere for success." - Sadhguru > > On Jul 10, 2025, at 4:03 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Faulty display? > > On Jul 10, 2025, at 7:39 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi All, > > Does anyone know what it means when a Sol-Ark display goes into dark mode? > Instead of the normal white background and coloring, the background goes to > black, and the arrows are purple. I've talked to tech support, and all they > would tell me is that it is "not good". We reset the dongle and updated > firmware, and it went away, and I assumed that things were fine. But > overnight, the dark mode came back. This has happened each night since the > inverter was first turned on on Tuesday this week. Tech support wants me to > reset it again, but I can only assume that the dark mode will come back. > The customer was there for the installation over the past few days, but is > not going to be there for a little while to tell me if the dark mode comes > back. There is no indication on the monitoring site that this is happening, > and the inverter otherwise seems to be working completely normally. But > since tech support is not being particularly forthcoming with what this > indicates, I thought I would see if anyone here has seen this in the past. > > Also, this is a system upgrade, and we are leaving the 1 year old lead > acid batteries in place. The old setup had the battery negative from the > battery box connected to ground in the main service panel. Does anyone know > whether leaving it like this will cause any issues? > > Thanks! > -Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-acvnk5ol.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-acvnk5ol.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com Thu Jul 10 13:42:07 2025 From: Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com (Poole, Jharen) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 17:42:07 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Dark Mode In-Reply-To: References: <2BA03AC8-51E2-4605-B2A8-96AF6C528F7B@gmail.com> <9A50862D-177C-45FC-9FB3-66E09DB314CB@renewablenergy.com> Message-ID: The fix for the dark screen was not undone. The firmware should be compatible with lead acid batteries. Looking at the logs for the case I see under your account for yesterday. The system received the correct firmware update. The second update provides you with visibility for the lead acid settings. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:efc7e3fb-47a0-4cd3-ad8f-421b961260a1] ________________________________ From: Dave Tedeyan Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2025 11:32 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Poole, Jharen Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Dark Mode Caution: This email is from an external source. Hi Jharen, Is there a version of this firmware that is compatible with lead acid batteries? Yesterday, when I was talking to tech support, they did one firmware update for the dark screen, but then we updated again for the lead acid version of firmware. Could that second update have undone the fix for the dark screen? Thanks, Dave On Thu, Jul 10, 2025, 12:03 PM Poole, Jharen via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hello Dave, We have a firmware update available that should resolve this issue. Please contact our technical support team to have the negative screen removed from the inverter. While the inverter should continue operating in its current state, we recommend updating it as soon as possible. Running the inverter with this condition long-term may lead to unforeseen issues. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:d001ce88-2c3c-486b-bfb8-b86c3564df2d] ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Roland - RES via RE-wrenches > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2025 10:29 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: roland at renewablenergy.com >; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Dark Mode Caution: This email is from an external source. This is an issue with there newest module si believe SN starting with 24 and on, you just need to call them for a firmware update to resolve issue. [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/R2pJqufzOLnyX7mZh5-xO1OEIH4lQB3r3iSLTQTEqvrIu-49s-fpYbAu3ULVxV-xeY78oSboKRb8RrrU5ZLCk5Mu4D-srDEsQrNBafl0FFwF4Yt6R3PmdIshOxSDcBolRWFLJYuVRIrXqZFlv9j-avA] Roland Shackelford President / Owner NABCEP PVIP #091209-162 Office 808.775.7410 Mobile 808.938.9239 Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc. " Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust, there will be an atmosphere for success." - Sadhguru On Jul 10, 2025, at 4:03 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Faulty display? On Jul 10, 2025, at 7:39 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Hi All, Does anyone know what it means when a Sol-Ark display goes into dark mode? Instead of the normal white background and coloring, the background goes to black, and the arrows are purple. I've talked to tech support, and all they would tell me is that it is "not good". We reset the dongle and updated firmware, and it went away, and I assumed that things were fine. But overnight, the dark mode came back. This has happened each night since the inverter was first turned on on Tuesday this week. Tech support wants me to reset it again, but I can only assume that the dark mode will come back. The customer was there for the installation over the past few days, but is not going to be there for a little while to tell me if the dark mode comes back. There is no indication on the monitoring site that this is happening, and the inverter otherwise seems to be working completely normally. But since tech support is not being particularly forthcoming with what this indicates, I thought I would see if anyone here has seen this in the past. Also, this is a system upgrade, and we are leaving the 1 year old lead acid batteries in place. The old setup had the battery negative from the battery box connected to ground in the main service panel. Does anyone know whether leaving it like this will cause any issues? Thanks! -Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-acvnk5ol.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: Outlook-acvnk5ol.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-2yivb4wf.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: Outlook-2yivb4wf.png URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jul 14 07:07:26 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 07:07:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Different LFP Batteries in Parallel Message-ID: There are never-ending videos on YouTube showing different brands and capacities of LFP batteries working in parallel. I have never tried it myself, and every instinct says don't do it, but I have a situation where it would be very helpful. I have a client with an older 60 kWh battery that is discontinued and incompatible with any other battery from the same manufacturer. It has a BMS with a 51.2 volt nominal rating. They need another 20 kWh of capacity. It is too costly to scrap the existing battery and start over, and the existing battery has been tested and confirmed to hold very close to its rated capacity. What is the real deal on mixing and matching? Is anyone doing this safely and successfully? I wonder what the battery manufacturers say about it. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 09:31:58 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 07:31:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Different LFP Batteries in Parallel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <908E57A5-8B47-4628-AAF0-9AF313E8E9D7@gmail.com> Hi Jason, can you let us know what the old battery is so we can dig up the specs and see if there would be any issues. There are a few odd ball like simpliphi which while a 51.2v has a very narrow window for operation compared to most other prismatic cells. jay > On Jul 14, 2025, at 5:07 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > There are never-ending videos on YouTube showing different brands and capacities of LFP batteries working in parallel. I have never tried it myself, and every instinct says don't do it, but I have a situation where it would be very helpful. > > I have a client with an older 60 kWh battery that is discontinued and incompatible with any other battery from the same manufacturer. It has a BMS with a 51.2 volt nominal rating. They need another 20 kWh of capacity. It is too costly to scrap the existing battery and start over, and the existing battery has been tested and confirmed to hold very close to its rated capacity. > > What is the real deal on mixing and matching? Is anyone doing this safely and successfully? I wonder what the battery manufacturers say about it. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Mon Jul 14 09:46:05 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 06:46:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Different LFP Batteries in Parallel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wouldn't do it... By doing so, you'll likely void any manufacturer's warranty. If you must do it, I would manually balance the old/new banks every 60-90 days. This involves separating the parallel strings of batteries and charging each string independently to achieve a full charge. If you don't do this, the different ages can cause imbalances, which will lead to problems with the BMS, regardless of whether it is in open-loop or closed-loop configuration. *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 4:09 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > There are never-ending videos on YouTube showing different brands and > capacities of LFP batteries working in parallel. I have never tried it > myself, and every instinct says don't do it, but I have a situation where > it would be very helpful. > > I have a client with an older 60 kWh battery that is discontinued and > incompatible with any other battery from the same manufacturer. It has a > BMS with a 51.2 volt nominal rating. They need another 20 kWh of capacity. > It is too costly to scrap the existing battery and start over, and the > existing battery has been tested and confirmed to hold very close to its > rated capacity. > > What is the real deal on mixing and matching? Is anyone doing this safely > and successfully? I wonder what the battery manufacturers say about it. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jul 14 09:45:19 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 09:45:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Different LFP Batteries in Parallel In-Reply-To: <908E57A5-8B47-4628-AAF0-9AF313E8E9D7@gmail.com> References: <908E57A5-8B47-4628-AAF0-9AF313E8E9D7@gmail.com> Message-ID: They are Lithionics. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 9:33 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > can you let us know what the old battery is so we can dig up the specs and > see if there would be any issues. > > There are a few odd ball like simpliphi which while a 51.2v has a very > narrow window for operation compared to most other prismatic cells. > > jay > > > > > > On Jul 14, 2025, at 5:07 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > There are never-ending videos on YouTube showing different brands and > capacities of LFP batteries working in parallel. I have never tried it > myself, and every instinct says don't do it, but I have a situation where > it would be very helpful. > > I have a client with an older 60 kWh battery that is discontinued and > incompatible with any other battery from the same manufacturer. It has a > BMS with a 51.2 volt nominal rating. They need another 20 kWh of capacity. > It is too costly to scrap the existing battery and start over, and the > existing battery has been tested and confirmed to hold very close to its > rated capacity. > > What is the real deal on mixing and matching? Is anyone doing this safely > and successfully? I wonder what the battery manufacturers say about it. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 09:51:44 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 07:51:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Different LFP Batteries in Parallel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <501EF0B5-4F64-42F1-901C-B8B913B24259@gmail.com> Hi Steve, Maybe you can elaborate as to how this could happen. Let’s say all the batteries are designed for a 57.4 usual charge voltage with an acceptance range of around 56-58.4v. If you’re charging 10 batteries to 57.4v, the most that any one battery gets to is 57.4. If one gets full before others then it stops accepting charge, but at no point in the system does any battery see more than 57.4. Iv’e seen this with same 10 batteries all from one OEM all in one system, all new. They get off just a little and some take longer or shorter to charge fully to 100% but the voltage never rises above what the inverter or CC is set to. I don’t understand how this would cause damage or issue. thanks jay > On Jul 14, 2025, at 7:46 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I wouldn't do it... By doing so, you'll likely void any manufacturer's warranty. > > If you must do it, I would manually balance the old/new banks every 60-90 days. This involves separating the parallel strings of batteries and charging each string independently to achieve a full charge. If you don't do this, the different ages can cause imbalances, which will lead to problems with the BMS, regardless of whether it is in open-loop or closed-loop configuration. > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. > > > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 4:09 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> There are never-ending videos on YouTube showing different brands and capacities of LFP batteries working in parallel. I have never tried it myself, and every instinct says don't do it, but I have a situation where it would be very helpful. >> >> I have a client with an older 60 kWh battery that is discontinued and incompatible with any other battery from the same manufacturer. It has a BMS with a 51.2 volt nominal rating. They need another 20 kWh of capacity. It is too costly to scrap the existing battery and start over, and the existing battery has been tested and confirmed to hold very close to its rated capacity. >> >> What is the real deal on mixing and matching? Is anyone doing this safely and successfully? I wonder what the battery manufacturers say about it. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Mon Jul 14 10:32:48 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 07:32:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Different LFP Batteries in Parallel In-Reply-To: <501EF0B5-4F64-42F1-901C-B8B913B24259@gmail.com> References: <501EF0B5-4F64-42F1-901C-B8B913B24259@gmail.com> Message-ID: Each battery has its own internal resistance. The higher the resistance, the longer it takes to charge. The issue is that chargers are voltage-based, and when charging multiple batteries in parallel, the lower-resistance batteries reach the target voltage sooner than the higher-resistance batteries. These lower resistance batteries cause the voltage-based chargers to bypass the absorb stage, and this prevents the batteries that are a bit low and out of balance from achieving that voltage target. If your charger isn't a 2-stage charger, or you aren't holding the absorb timer long enough, or the charger is a "Smart Charger" and it can be made to think that the batteries are fully charged when they are not. The best way to avoid this: Wire parallel connections using positive/negative bus bars with equal-sized cabling. Do not parallel LFP batteries with only cables, and do not use the connections on the battery as a parallel connection. Use a charger that can be programmed for 2-stage charging. Unfortunately, there aren't many of these out there... If you can't use a charger that operates in 2 Stage, you need to extend the absorb timers so the charger is supplying voltage to the BMSs of the parallel batteries, so all batteries have time to get to full balance. We typically suggest 20-30 minutes of absorption time per parallel-connected battery up to about 3 to 4 hours. For that bank with 10 batteries, I would set the absorb timers to at least four, if not five, hours. You should also disable any end amp/return amp settings, as these are often not programmed with a time delay and will result in the charger bypassing the absorption timer. In general, the more the customer works with the bank, the more often they'll have to balance. I would start by checking SOCs and Voltages every 90 days. If you notice a difference of more than 0.3 volts or a spread of more than 4-5% points, I would separate each parallel battery and boost each battery at Bulk/Abs Voltage for at least one hour of abs time. Suppose the bank is way out of balance. In that case, it may take a few cycles(6-10) to achieve that balance, even so if it's been out of balance for a long time, you may never again achieve full balacne, in those cases I would manually balance more often every 1-2 months instead of 6-12 months. *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 6:54 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Steve, > > Maybe you can elaborate as to how this could happen. > > Let’s say all the batteries are designed for a 57.4 usual charge voltage > with an acceptance range of around 56-58.4v. > > If you’re charging 10 batteries to 57.4v, the most that any one battery > gets to is 57.4. If one gets full before others then it stops accepting > charge, but at no point in the system does any battery see more than 57.4. > > Iv’e seen this with same 10 batteries all from one OEM all in one system, > all new. They get off just a little and some take longer or shorter to > charge fully to 100% but the voltage never rises above what the inverter or > CC is set to. I don’t understand how this would cause damage or issue. > > > > thanks > > jay > > > > On Jul 14, 2025, at 7:46 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I wouldn't do it... By doing so, you'll likely void any manufacturer's > warranty. > > If you must do it, I would manually balance the old/new banks every 60-90 > days. This involves separating the parallel strings of batteries and > charging each string independently to achieve a full charge. If you don't > do this, the different ages can cause imbalances, which will lead to > problems with the BMS, regardless of whether it is in open-loop or > closed-loop configuration. > > > > *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* > *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 > *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 4:09 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> There are never-ending videos on YouTube showing different brands and >> capacities of LFP batteries working in parallel. I have never tried it >> myself, and every instinct says don't do it, but I have a situation where >> it would be very helpful. >> >> I have a client with an older 60 kWh battery that is discontinued and >> incompatible with any other battery from the same manufacturer. It has a >> BMS with a 51.2 volt nominal rating. They need another 20 kWh of capacity. >> It is too costly to scrap the existing battery and start over, and the >> existing battery has been tested and confirmed to hold very close to its >> rated capacity. >> >> What is the real deal on mixing and matching? Is anyone doing this safely >> and successfully? I wonder what the battery manufacturers say about it. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jul 14 11:30:10 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 08:30:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Different LFP Batteries in Parallel In-Reply-To: References: <908E57A5-8B47-4628-AAF0-9AF313E8E9D7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7e249c6ef6913729a1bfd57958b6d10e@sti.net> Does the client know that they can't blame you for doing something that has chances of being a bad choice? Can the client keep track of two different Soc and be responsible about it? I would also look into how a home insurance policy would react to a claim. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-07-14 6:45 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > They are Lithionics. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 9:33 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Hi Jason, > > can you let us know what the old battery is so we can dig up the specs > and see if there would be any issues. > > There are a few odd ball like simpliphi which while a 51.2v has a very > narrow window for operation compared to most other prismatic cells. > > jay > > On Jul 14, 2025, at 5:07 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > There are never-ending videos on YouTube showing different brands and > capacities of LFP batteries working in parallel. I have never tried it > myself, and every instinct says don't do it, but I have a situation > where it would be very helpful. > > I have a client with an older 60 kWh battery that is discontinued and > incompatible with any other battery from the same manufacturer. It has > a BMS with a 51.2 volt nominal rating. They need another 20 kWh of > capacity. It is too costly to scrap the existing battery and start > over, and the existing battery has been tested and confirmed to hold > very close to its rated capacity. > > What is the real deal on mixing and matching? Is anyone doing this > safely and successfully? I wonder what the battery manufacturers say > about it. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jul 14 11:55:36 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 15:55:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Different LFP Batteries in Parallel In-Reply-To: <7e249c6ef6913729a1bfd57958b6d10e@sti.net> References: <908E57A5-8B47-4628-AAF0-9AF313E8E9D7@gmail.com> <7e249c6ef6913729a1bfd57958b6d10e@sti.net> Message-ID: <959127ec-66d6-1237-ad66-8aae26db8f90@floridasolardesigngroup.com> This client has been advised that it's not a good idea, and any failures might result in a complete battery replacement. If he goes forward, it will be at his own risk. They have a full-time homewatch person who is quite capable. He could monitor SOC and also isolate banks for balancing efforts if necessary. We have a nice Midnite 2000A battery combiner there with breakers for each battery, so it would be pretty convenient.  Self-insured. I don't think any of my off-grid barrier island clients have insurance. The mainland insurance market is messed up in Florida. Forget about the islands. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 11:31 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Does the client know that they can't blame you for doing something that has > chances of being a bad choice? >   > Can the client keep track of two different Soc and be responsible about it? >   > I would also look into how a home insurance policy would react to a claim. > > >   > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/https://offgridsolar1.com/https://offgridsolar1.com/ http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.netoffgridsolar@sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > > > On 2025-07-14 6:45 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > They are Lithionics.  > >   > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 9:33 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrenches.org [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> wrote: > > > Hi Jason, > > >   > > > can you let us know what the old battery is so we can dig up the specs and > > > see if there would be any issues.   > > >   > > > There are a few odd ball like simpliphi which while a 51.2v has a very > > > narrow window for operation compared to most other prismatic cells. > > >   > > > jay > > >   > > >   > > >   > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 14, 2025, at 5:07 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > There are never-ending videos on YouTube showing different brands and > > > > capacities of LFP batteries working in parallel. I have never tried it > > > > myself, and every instinct says don't do it, but I have a situation > > > > where it would be very helpful.  > > > >   > > > > I have a client with an older 60 kWh battery that is discontinued and > > > > incompatible with any other battery from the same manufacturer. It has a > > > > BMS with a 51.2 volt nominal rating. They need another 20 kWh of > > > > capacity. It is too costly to scrap the existing battery and start over, > > > > and the existing battery has been tested and confirmed to hold very > > > > close to its rated capacity. > > > >   > > > > What is the real deal on mixing and matching? Is anyone doing this > > > > safely and successfully? I wonder what the battery manufacturers say > > > > about it.  > > > >   > > > > Jason Szumlanski  > > > > Florida Solar Design Group  > > > >   > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > > > > the other: > > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > > other: > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 12:39:55 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 12:39:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Different LFP Batteries in Parallel In-Reply-To: References: <501EF0B5-4F64-42F1-901C-B8B913B24259@gmail.com> Message-ID: Steve, Are you suggesting that even for like batteries in closed loop, that you would add 20 minutes per paralleled battery of absorb time? This is much longer than what I have understood various manufacturers to state. Thanks for your input. Howie Michaelson On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 10:33 AM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Each battery has its own internal resistance. The higher the resistance, > the longer it takes to charge. The issue is that chargers are > voltage-based, and when charging multiple batteries in parallel, the > lower-resistance batteries reach the target voltage sooner than the > higher-resistance batteries. These lower resistance batteries cause the > voltage-based chargers to bypass the absorb stage, and this prevents the > batteries that are a bit low and out of balance from achieving that voltage > target. > > If your charger isn't a 2-stage charger, or you aren't holding the > absorb timer long enough, or the charger is a "Smart Charger" and it can be > made to think that the batteries are fully charged when they are not. > > The best way to avoid this: > > Wire parallel connections using positive/negative bus bars with > equal-sized cabling. Do not parallel LFP batteries with only cables, and do > not use the connections on the battery as a parallel connection. > > Use a charger that can be programmed for 2-stage charging. Unfortunately, > there aren't many of these out there... > > If you can't use a charger that operates in 2 Stage, you need to extend > the absorb timers so the charger is supplying voltage to the BMSs of the > parallel batteries, so all batteries have time to get to full balance. We > typically suggest 20-30 minutes of absorption time per parallel-connected > battery up to about 3 to 4 hours. For that bank with 10 batteries, I > would set the absorb timers to at least four, if not five, hours. > > You should also disable any end amp/return amp settings, as these are > often not programmed with a time delay and will result in the charger > bypassing the absorption timer. > > In general, the more the customer works with the bank, the more often > they'll have to balance. > > I would start by checking SOCs and Voltages every 90 days. If you notice a > difference of more than 0.3 volts or a spread of more than 4-5% points, I > would separate each parallel battery and boost each battery at Bulk/Abs > Voltage for at least one hour of abs time. Suppose the bank is way out of > balance. In that case, it may take a few cycles(6-10) to achieve that > balance, even so if it's been out of balance for a long time, you may never > again achieve full balacne, in those cases I would manually balance more > often every 1-2 months instead of 6-12 months. > > > > *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* > *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 > *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 6:54 AM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Steve, >> >> Maybe you can elaborate as to how this could happen. >> >> Let’s say all the batteries are designed for a 57.4 usual charge voltage >> with an acceptance range of around 56-58.4v. >> >> If you’re charging 10 batteries to 57.4v, the most that any one battery >> gets to is 57.4. If one gets full before others then it stops accepting >> charge, but at no point in the system does any battery see more than 57.4. >> >> Iv’e seen this with same 10 batteries all from one OEM all in one system, >> all new. They get off just a little and some take longer or shorter to >> charge fully to 100% but the voltage never rises above what the inverter or >> CC is set to. I don’t understand how this would cause damage or issue. >> >> >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> >> >> On Jul 14, 2025, at 7:46 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> I wouldn't do it... By doing so, you'll likely void any manufacturer's >> warranty. >> >> If you must do it, I would manually balance the old/new banks every 60-90 >> days. This involves separating the parallel strings of batteries and >> charging each string independently to achieve a full charge. If you don't >> do this, the different ages can cause imbalances, which will lead to >> problems with the BMS, regardless of whether it is in open-loop or >> closed-loop configuration. >> >> >> >> *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* >> *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 >> *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com >> ------------------------------ >> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for >> the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged >> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the >> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If >> you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or >> destroy this message and all copies. >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 4:09 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> There are never-ending videos on YouTube showing different brands and >>> capacities of LFP batteries working in parallel. I have never tried it >>> myself, and every instinct says don't do it, but I have a situation where >>> it would be very helpful. >>> >>> I have a client with an older 60 kWh battery that is discontinued and >>> incompatible with any other battery from the same manufacturer. It has a >>> BMS with a 51.2 volt nominal rating. They need another 20 kWh of capacity. >>> It is too costly to scrap the existing battery and start over, and the >>> existing battery has been tested and confirmed to hold very close to its >>> rated capacity. >>> >>> What is the real deal on mixing and matching? Is anyone doing this >>> safely and successfully? I wonder what the battery manufacturers say about >>> it. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Jul 14 13:12:09 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 12:12:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Different LFP Batteries in Parallel In-Reply-To: <959127ec-66d6-1237-ad66-8aae26db8f90@floridasolardesigngroup.com> References: <959127ec-66d6-1237-ad66-8aae26db8f90@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: <61C5F770-B6D0-493A-99CC-C5F88BB3FF9D@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 13:48:41 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 11:48:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Different LFP Batteries in Parallel In-Reply-To: <61C5F770-B6D0-493A-99CC-C5F88BB3FF9D@mavericksolar.com> References: <61C5F770-B6D0-493A-99CC-C5F88BB3FF9D@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <91164DDC-94C9-4A27-A801-35796F72DB70@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jul 14 16:12:43 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 16:12:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Solar / Midnite Power Message-ID: Just a heads up for those who haven't heard, but Midnite Solar is spinning off a company to handle the Midnite AIO inverter. It is called Midnite Power. I'm not sure what products are going with it. The AIO and batteries have disappeared from the Midnite Solar website, and I can't find a Midnite Power site yet. I was tipped off to this a while ago, but kept it quiet at my source's request, but I see now that some online retailers are calling the AIO a Midnite Power product, so I guess that cat is out of the bag. I'm not clear if the Midnite Powerflo batteries are going to remain available, but the AIO is definitely going to be available, according to my sources, and they are developing a US-made product to replace it eventually. Fun times... Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Mon Jul 14 16:15:24 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 13:15:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Paralleling different type LFP batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a system that I am trying this on. Both are 16 cell batteries (obviously can't do a 15 cell in parallel with a 16 cell). Two 300AH ReLion/IronEdison batteries with failed BMS's, so I'm putting in a new JKBMS on each of them. Three older Fortress Evaults (one of which may also have a failed BMS, trying to figure it out still). All in open loop with SolArk inverters in a self consumption system. I will be putting a Victron smartshunt on each of the five paralleled batteries, with a cerbo, to track charging and discharging of each of them and see what they do over time. Charge voltages of both of them should be close enough to be compatible... Will report back in a few months. BTW, this is in a separate power shed where they cannot burn anything else down. I would never do an experiment like this in a house or building of any value (the batteries themselves and the SolArk inverters are the only thing of value in this shed). Zeke -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jul 14 16:18:06 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 16:18:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Solar / Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, I just didn't look hard enough, apparently. Here is the new site: https://www.midnitepower.com/ Looks like the battery is being marketed alongside the AIO. On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 4:12 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Just a heads up for those who haven't heard, but Midnite Solar is spinning > off a company to handle the Midnite AIO inverter. It is called Midnite > Power. I'm not sure what products are going with it. The AIO and batteries > have disappeared from the Midnite Solar website, and I can't find a Midnite > Power site yet. > > I was tipped off to this a while ago, but kept it quiet at my source's > request, but I see now that some online retailers are calling the AIO a > Midnite Power product, so I guess that cat is out of the bag. > > I'm not clear if the Midnite Powerflo batteries are going to remain > available, but the AIO is definitely going to be available, according to my > sources, and they are developing a US-made product to replace it eventually. > > Fun times... > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Mon Jul 14 16:38:57 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 16:38:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Solar / Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All the Asian made products will now fall under the Midnite Power brand. MNP will have FP16 batteries in stock very soon as they are on the water and on the way. Still have MNS branded inverters, with more inverters on the way. Midnite Solar will focus on the American made products, with a new inverter available by the end of the year if everything stays on track. Thanks On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 4:14 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Just a heads up for those who haven't heard, but Midnite Solar is spinning > off a company to handle the Midnite AIO inverter. It is called Midnite > Power. I'm not sure what products are going with it. The AIO and batteries > have disappeared from the Midnite Solar website, and I can't find a Midnite > Power site yet. > > I was tipped off to this a while ago, but kept it quiet at my source's > request, but I see now that some online retailers are calling the AIO a > Midnite Power product, so I guess that cat is out of the bag. > > I'm not clear if the Midnite Powerflo batteries are going to remain > available, but the AIO is definitely going to be available, according to my > sources, and they are developing a US-made product to replace it eventually. > > Fun times... > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 16:57:14 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 16:57:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Solar / Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can anyone say what that means practically to us installers and my clients. I have really hitched my wagon to the AIO and PF batteries. What does that mean for support issues? Any thoughts or info? Howie Michaelson On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 4:39 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > All the Asian made products will now fall under the Midnite Power brand. > MNP will have FP16 batteries in stock very soon as they are on the water > and on the way. Still have MNS branded inverters, with more inverters on > the way. Midnite Solar will focus on the American made products, with a > new inverter available by the end of the year if everything stays on track. > > Thanks > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 4:14 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Just a heads up for those who haven't heard, but Midnite Solar is >> spinning off a company to handle the Midnite AIO inverter. It is called >> Midnite Power. I'm not sure what products are going with it. The AIO and >> batteries have disappeared from the Midnite Solar website, and I can't find >> a Midnite Power site yet. >> >> I was tipped off to this a while ago, but kept it quiet at my source's >> request, but I see now that some online retailers are calling the AIO a >> Midnite Power product, so I guess that cat is out of the bag. >> >> I'm not clear if the Midnite Powerflo batteries are going to remain >> available, but the AIO is definitely going to be available, according to my >> sources, and they are developing a US-made product to replace it eventually. >> >> Fun times... >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 18:11:27 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 16:11:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Solar / Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Mon Jul 14 19:31:39 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 19:31:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Solar / Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay The same team members are working, Rick and Ronnie or email them just change the Midnitesolar to @ MidnitePower. You can call the 1-800 number for the MNP support, or the support at midnitepower.com. Also if you use the MidniteSolar help, they will move any email to the correct person for help. There should be no laps in warranty support or service support. On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 6:12 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thx Bryce > > Who do we call for tech support, warranty etc? > > Jay > > On Jul 14, 2025, at 2:39 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > All the Asian made products will now fall under the Midnite Power brand. > MNP will have FP16 batteries in stock very soon as they are on the water > and on the way. Still have MNS branded inverters, with more inverters on > the way. Midnite Solar will focus on the American made products, with a > new inverter available by the end of the year if everything stays on track. > > Thanks > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 4:14 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Just a heads up for those who haven't heard, but Midnite Solar is >> spinning off a company to handle the Midnite AIO inverter. It is called >> Midnite Power. I'm not sure what products are going with it. The AIO and >> batteries have disappeared from the Midnite Solar website, and I can't find >> a Midnite Power site yet. >> >> I was tipped off to this a while ago, but kept it quiet at my source's >> request, but I see now that some online retailers are calling the AIO a >> Midnite Power product, so I guess that cat is out of the bag. >> >> I'm not clear if the Midnite Powerflo batteries are going to remain >> available, but the AIO is definitely going to be available, according to my >> sources, and they are developing a US-made product to replace it eventually. >> >> Fun times... >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 19:37:58 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 17:37:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Solar / Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: thanks Bryce, One last question, can you tell us why this is happening? jay > On Jul 14, 2025, at 5:31 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Jay > > The same team members are working, Rick and Ronnie or email them just change the Midnitesolar to @ MidnitePower. You can call the 1-800 number for the MNP support, or the support at midnitepower.com . Also if you use the MidniteSolar help, they will move any email to the correct person for help. There should be no laps in warranty support or service support. > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 6:12 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Thx Bryce >> >> Who do we call for tech support, warranty etc? >> >> Jay >> >>> On Jul 14, 2025, at 2:39 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> All the Asian made products will now fall under the Midnite Power brand. MNP will have FP16 batteries in stock very soon as they are on the water and on the way. Still have MNS branded inverters, with more inverters on the way. Midnite Solar will focus on the American made products, with a new inverter available by the end of the year if everything stays on track. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 4:14 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> Just a heads up for those who haven't heard, but Midnite Solar is spinning off a company to handle the Midnite AIO inverter. It is called Midnite Power. I'm not sure what products are going with it. The AIO and batteries have disappeared from the Midnite Solar website, and I can't find a Midnite Power site yet. >>>> >>>> I was tipped off to this a while ago, but kept it quiet at my source's request, but I see now that some online retailers are calling the AIO a Midnite Power product, so I guess that cat is out of the bag. >>>> >>>> I'm not clear if the Midnite Powerflo batteries are going to remain available, but the AIO is definitely going to be available, according to my sources, and they are developing a US-made product to replace it eventually. >>>> >>>> Fun times... >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Mon Jul 14 20:09:06 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 20:09:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Solar / Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This change allows each company to focus on the core values of the technology they offer. MNP will specialize in Asian-made products, while MNS will continue to focus on U.S.-made products—including newly designed and manufactured inverters, and charge controllers, developed in the United States. On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 7:38 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > thanks Bryce, > > One last question, can you tell us why this is happening? > > jay > > On Jul 14, 2025, at 5:31 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Jay > > The same team members are working, Rick and Ronnie or email them just > change the Midnitesolar to @ MidnitePower. You can call the 1-800 number > for the MNP support, or the support at midnitepower.com. Also if you use the > MidniteSolar help, they will move any email to the correct person for help. > There should be no laps in warranty support or service support. > > On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 6:12 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Thx Bryce >> >> Who do we call for tech support, warranty etc? >> >> Jay >> >> On Jul 14, 2025, at 2:39 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> All the Asian made products will now fall under the Midnite Power brand. >> MNP will have FP16 batteries in stock very soon as they are on the water >> and on the way. Still have MNS branded inverters, with more inverters on >> the way. Midnite Solar will focus on the American made products, with a >> new inverter available by the end of the year if everything stays on track. >> >> Thanks >> >> On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 4:14 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Just a heads up for those who haven't heard, but Midnite Solar is >>> spinning off a company to handle the Midnite AIO inverter. It is called >>> Midnite Power. I'm not sure what products are going with it. The AIO and >>> batteries have disappeared from the Midnite Solar website, and I can't find >>> a Midnite Power site yet. >>> >>> I was tipped off to this a while ago, but kept it quiet at my source's >>> request, but I see now that some online retailers are calling the AIO a >>> Midnite Power product, so I guess that cat is out of the bag. >>> >>> I'm not clear if the Midnite Powerflo batteries are going to remain >>> available, but the AIO is definitely going to be available, according to my >>> sources, and they are developing a US-made product to replace it eventually. >>> >>> Fun times... >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 15 01:12:46 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 22:12:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BMS as OCOD Message-ID: Friends: When I design a lead-acid battery system I decide if I need over-current protection right at the battery or not. My logic is: if the leads are short, don’t go through a wall and are well protected, I can rely on OCPD in the BOS cabinets. If any of these criteria is a no I put appropriately rated class T fuses right at the battery. I’m thinking that since BMS devices have over-current protection baked-in, fusing at the battery would not be necessary for BMS equipped batteries in any case. Do you agree with that premise? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Jul 15 08:31:39 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 07:31:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Different LFP Batteries in Parallel In-Reply-To: <91164DDC-94C9-4A27-A801-35796F72DB70@gmail.com> References: <91164DDC-94C9-4A27-A801-35796F72DB70@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6A2CE664-B6AB-4263-A81C-B9EECEF49D7A@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: preview.png Type: image/png Size: 215923 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: preview.png Type: image/png Size: 224817 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 09:34:58 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 07:34:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Different LFP Batteries in Parallel In-Reply-To: <6A2CE664-B6AB-4263-A81C-B9EECEF49D7A@mavericksolar.com> References: <91164DDC-94C9-4A27-A801-35796F72DB70@gmail.com> <6A2CE664-B6AB-4263-A81C-B9EECEF49D7A@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: The fortress I installed if I can remember did recommend a lower voltage for open loop vs closed loop. With closed loop being closer to 56v or what the inverter is programmed with. Now why they recommended lower open loop wasn’t clear. The 54.4v is the lower end of many 51.2v prismatic charging ranges. The eg4 which I was just looking at is 56.2 +/- .8v which makes the lower end at 54.4. I would like to know given this 1.6v charge range what are the pros and cons of the 54.4 vs 57v? if anyone knows pls chime in. As to your comment below that you go with longer absorb to get better balance of SOC between the batteries, is this what you are finding in practice? thanks jay > On Jul 15, 2025, at 6:31 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jay > > A little bit of both. > > Here is the integration guide from Outback and from Fortress > > https://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/fortress_app_note.pdf > https://www.fortresspower.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Fortress-Power-Integration-Guide-with-Outback-inverter-Rev1.5_5.16.2021.pdf > Then, I added more time to the Absorb to get better SOC between the batteries. > > I’m trying to stay lower volts based on these guides. > > Another issue is to make sure the voltage that the charge controller thinks it has verses what the battery terminals or the bms report. I have bumped up the voltage on charge controller to calibrate what the battery actually thinks it’s getting. I know the outback charge controller has a calibration offset, but sometimes they can’t get high enough. > > Let me know what you think. > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > >> On Jul 14, 2025, at 12:49 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>  >> Hi Maverick >> >> That is a unique to me charging parameters. >> Did you figure this out on your own or did you get this from a OEM? >> >> Is the long absorb time for making sure the internal passive balancing has time to work? >> >> I don’t understand the very low charge voltage. Can you explain please? >> Thanks >> Jay >> >> >> >> >>> On Jul 14, 2025, at 11:12 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> It looks like you are in great shape to do what you’re trying to do. >>> >>> For legacy inverter systems, I have set the absorb quite long: 4 to 6 hours depending on the quantity of individual batteries. >>> >>> Here at my own house, I have 8 eFlex batteries and 8 Pytes batteries. All in parallel on an outback radian. I have 55.2v absorb set for six hours with zero end amps. For the E flex batteries I have the fortress guardian and I can see the battery state of charge remotely individually. When the individual battery state of charge variation gets too large, I run an equalize session getting the battery voltage up to 56 V. >>> >>> I have other customers with various mixes of batteries. They are all 16 S lithium iron phosphate and as long as somebody is paying attention so far it’s been working fine. >>> >>> For this customer, I would select Pytes as the brand of battery to add to the system because in the future, you can still add more batteries to that rack. And you can get the individual battery state of charge using solar assistant. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Maverick >>> >>> Maverick Brown >>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >>> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >>> • Solar Commander Remote Power >>> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >>> maverick at mavericksolar.com >>> 512-460-9825 >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 14, 2025, at 10:56 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> ​This client has been advised that it's not a good idea, and any failures might result in a complete battery replacement. If he goes forward, it will be at his own risk. >>>> >>>> They have a full-time homewatch person who is quite capable. He could monitor SOC and also isolate banks for balancing efforts if necessary. We have a nice Midnite 2000A battery combiner there with breakers for each battery, so it would be pretty convenient. >>>> >>>> Self-insured. I don't think any of my off-grid barrier island clients have insurance. The mainland insurance market is messed up in Florida. Forget about the islands. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 11:31 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> Does the client know that they can't blame you for doing something that has chances of being a bad choice? >>>>> >>>>> Can the client keep track of two different Soc and be responsible about it? >>>>> >>>>> I would also look into how a home insurance policy would react to a claim. >>>>> >>>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2025-07-14 6:45 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> They are Lithionics. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2025, 9:33 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> Hi Jason, >>>>>> >>>>>> can you let us know what the old battery is so we can dig up the specs and see if there would be any issues. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are a few odd ball like simpliphi which while a 51.2v has a very narrow window for operation compared to most other prismatic cells. >>>>>> >>>>>> jay >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 14, 2025, at 5:07 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are never-ending videos on YouTube showing different brands and capacities of LFP batteries working in parallel. I have never tried it myself, and every instinct says don't do it, but I have a situation where it would be very helpful. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have a client with an older 60 kWh battery that is discontinued and incompatible with any other battery from the same manufacturer. It has a BMS with a 51.2 volt nominal rating. They need another 20 kWh of capacity. It is too costly to scrap the existing battery and start over, and the existing battery has been tested and confirmed to hold very close to its rated capacity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What is the real deal on mixing and matching? Is anyone doing this safely and successfully? I wonder what the battery manufacturers say about it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 09:41:45 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 07:41:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sunny island and lithium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI All, I might be inheriting a 12 yr old SI off grid system, that has a dying Absolyte battery. I know there have been some discussions on the SI and lithium. I’m just trying to understand what the options are with closed vs open loop, basically can it be done. If I do get the project, I will happily pay someone who’s done all the hard work for the education to tell me what the programming steps are. And at what point does it make sense to just remove the SI and install a AIO? thanks in advance. jay From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 15 10:44:24 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 07:44:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sunny island and lithium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If the system is AC coupled I would suggest you dump the Sunny Islands immediately. We are soon going to wreck out 4 SIs and install 2 envy 12s. The SIs just would not work AC coupled to e-vault 18s. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 6:43 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All, > > I might be inheriting a 12 yr old SI off grid system, that has a dying > Absolyte battery. > > > I know there have been some discussions on the SI and lithium. > > I’m just trying to understand what the options are with closed vs open > loop, basically can it be done. > > If I do get the project, I will happily pay someone who’s done all the > hard work for the education to tell me what the programming steps are. > > And at what point does it make sense to just remove the SI and install a > AIO? > > thanks in advance. > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 15 10:55:31 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 10:55:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior Message-ID: With this new breed of AIO inverters, when the battery reaches low voltage disconnect, do they all need manual intervention to restart inverting? I'm having an issue with a Midnite AIO with a stack of Pytes batteries that reset themselves for a yet undiagnosed reason. The DC Battery voltage goes to zero on the inverter for a moment, and then returns. The problem is, it requires manual intervention to push the button to turn the inverter back on. It does not happen automatically. That's not good for an unmanned remote site. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 11:03:48 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 08:03:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's my understanding as well. Sure would be cool if there was an automatic reconnect mode that could be set. On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 7:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > With this new breed of AIO inverters, when the battery reaches low voltage > disconnect, do they all need manual intervention to restart inverting? > > I'm having an issue with a Midnite AIO with a stack of Pytes batteries > that reset themselves for a yet undiagnosed reason. The DC Battery voltage > goes to zero on the inverter for a moment, and then returns. The problem > is, it requires manual intervention to push the button to turn the inverter > back on. It does not happen automatically. That's not good for an unmanned > remote site. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 11:32:51 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 08:32:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Jul 15 11:33:40 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 10:33:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92C1DDA2-C99C-4015-AD39-6D43270B3D5D@mavericksolar.com> Jason Is the battery closed loop to the AIO? Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Jul 15, 2025, at 9:57 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > With this new breed of AIO inverters, when the battery reaches low voltage disconnect, do they all need manual intervention to restart inverting? > > I'm having an issue with a Midnite AIO with a stack of Pytes batteries that reset themselves for a yet undiagnosed reason. The DC Battery voltage goes to zero on the inverter for a moment, and then returns. The problem is, it requires manual intervention to push the button to turn the inverter back on. It does not happen automatically. That's not good for an unmanned remote site. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Tue Jul 15 11:38:35 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 05:38:35 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sunny island and lithium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aloha All, My personal off-grid house system is a single SI 6048, 1 - Classic 150, 1 - Classic 200, 1 - Kid, 1 - SB3000US (going through a old Trace Autoformer), 3 Discover 42-48-6650 Batteries, a Discover Link II and a Honda EU7000is (no autostart as of yet). With closed loop comms functioning. We just got this all working about 2 months ago. It took me a bit to get it all working but now it functions beautifully. SMA implementation of AC coupled with their own equipment works very well. Though Discover is not a listed SMA "Compatible" battery, Discover does support it and based on data from the Links II (which is online via Discover's MyLinkCloud website) charging is working well, with minimal cell voltage imbalances. I also got an old WebBox and 2 RS485 piggyback cards to get SMA Coms (RS485) working well. Though this is not necessary in an off-grid install for AC coupled to work, it is nice to have access to both inverters through the WebBox, however bad the interface is. The AC coupled array is about 150ft away from the rest of the system. I have never been a fan of AC coupled systems but this setup may change my mind. Next I need to get gen auto start tweaked and working well. With all that said, I would probably not install this system for a client. The lack of an affordable and simple online option from SMA and the general inflexibility (and complex) programming of SMA inverter makes me hesitant to sell and service this type of system. Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 4:46 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > If the system is AC coupled I would suggest you dump the Sunny Islands > immediately. > > We are soon going to wreck out 4 SIs and install 2 envy 12s. The SIs just > would not work AC coupled to e-vault 18s. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 6:43 AM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I might be inheriting a 12 yr old SI off grid system, that has a dying >> Absolyte battery. >> >> >> I know there have been some discussions on the SI and lithium. >> >> I’m just trying to understand what the options are with closed vs open >> loop, basically can it be done. >> >> If I do get the project, I will happily pay someone who’s done all the >> hard work for the education to tell me what the programming steps are. >> >> And at what point does it make sense to just remove the SI and install a >> AIO? >> >> thanks in advance. >> >> jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Tue Jul 15 11:46:30 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 15:46:30 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sunny island and lithium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lol - funny how we all have no problems kluging together systems for ourselves where we know the quirks. I'd never put in for paying customer what my Texas coastal duck camp has but the $0 price was right for older Outback equipment I had in the shop and adding distilled water to FLA batteries from time to time! Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Lou Russo via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2025 10:38 AM To: william at millersolar.com ; RE-wrenches Cc: Lou Russo Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sunny island and lithium Aloha All, My personal off-grid house system is a single SI 6048, 1 - Classic 150, 1 - Classic 200, 1 - Kid, 1 - SB3000US (going through a old Trace Autoformer), 3 Discover 42-48-6650 Batteries, a Discover Link II and a Honda EU7000is (no autostart as of yet). With closed loop comms functioning. We just got this all working about 2 months ago. It took me a bit to get it all working but now it functions beautifully. SMA implementation of AC coupled with their own equipment works very well. Though Discover is not a listed SMA "Compatible" battery, Discover does support it and based on data from the Links II (which is online via Discover's MyLinkCloud website) charging is working well, with minimal cell voltage imbalances. I also got an old WebBox and 2 RS485 piggyback cards to get SMA Coms (RS485) working well. Though this is not necessary in an off-grid install for AC coupled to work, it is nice to have access to both inverters through the WebBox, however bad the interface is. The AC coupled array is about 150ft away from the rest of the system. I have never been a fan of AC coupled systems but this setup may change my mind. Next I need to get gen auto start tweaked and working well. With all that said, I would probably not install this system for a client. The lack of an affordable and simple online option from SMA and the general inflexibility (and complex) programming of SMA inverter makes me hesitant to sell and service this type of system. Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 4:46 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: If the system is AC coupled I would suggest you dump the Sunny Islands immediately. We are soon going to wreck out 4 SIs and install 2 envy 12s. The SIs just would not work AC coupled to e-vault 18s. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 6:43 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: HI All, I might be inheriting a 12 yr old SI off grid system, that has a dying Absolyte battery. I know there have been some discussions on the SI and lithium. I’m just trying to understand what the options are with closed vs open loop, basically can it be done. If I do get the project, I will happily pay someone who’s done all the hard work for the education to tell me what the programming steps are. And at what point does it make sense to just remove the SI and install a AIO? thanks in advance. jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garyhsolari at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 12:17:15 2025 From: garyhsolari at gmail.com (Gary Handelin) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 09:17:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sunny island and lithium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 6:42 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All, > > I might be inheriting a 12 yr old SI off grid system, that has a dying > Absolyte battery. > > > I know there have been some discussions on the SI and lithium. > > I’m just trying to understand what the options are with closed vs open > loop, basically can it be done. > > If I do get the project, I will happily pay someone who’s done all the > hard work for the education to tell me what the programming steps are. > > And at what point does it make sense to just remove the SI and install a > AIO? > > thanks in advance. > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garyhsolari at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 12:17:52 2025 From: garyhsolari at gmail.com (Gary Handelin) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 09:17:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sunny island and lithium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 6:42 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All, > > I might be inheriting a 12 yr old SI off grid system, that has a dying > Absolyte battery. > > > I know there have been some discussions on the SI and lithium. > > I’m just trying to understand what the options are with closed vs open > loop, basically can it be done. > > If I do get the project, I will happily pay someone who’s done all the > hard work for the education to tell me what the programming steps are. > > And at what point does it make sense to just remove the SI and install a > AIO? > > thanks in advance. > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garyhsolari at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 12:18:17 2025 From: garyhsolari at gmail.com (Gary Handelin) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 09:18:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sunny island and lithium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 6:42 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All, > > I might be inheriting a 12 yr old SI off grid system, that has a dying > Absolyte battery. > > > I know there have been some discussions on the SI and lithium. > > I’m just trying to understand what the options are with closed vs open > loop, basically can it be done. > > If I do get the project, I will happily pay someone who’s done all the > hard work for the education to tell me what the programming steps are. > > And at what point does it make sense to just remove the SI and install a > AIO? > > thanks in advance. > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue Jul 15 12:50:18 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 12:50:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BMS as OCOD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello William- I agree with your approach. I never historically have OCPD'ed lead acids at both ends of the battery cable run, but do now, esp. with high kwh LFP, where a DC combiner is in use. For instance, I had to design a 2000 ADC bus @ a nominal 55 vdc, for a 500 kwh Blue Ion LFP bank. To create enough space for cables and fuses, I started with -2- 2000A Midnite combiners, using one for positive and one for negative. Class T fuses are bolted directly to the DC bus (properly sized copper from copper.org charts), and the BI BMS breaker protects at each respective battery cabinet. Same thing on the DC to inverter cables, class T's bolted to the bus, to its respective outback Radian, where the standard 175A breaker resides. I would never again do a building power system of any type or size without both ends of a power cable (point of use & point of origin) being protected, A best practice IMO. On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 1:13 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > When I design a lead-acid battery system I decide if I need over-current > protection right at the battery or not. My logic is: if the leads are > short, don’t go through a wall and are well protected, I can rely on OCPD > in the BOS cabinets. If any of these criteria is a no I put appropriately > rated class T fuses right at the battery. > > I’m thinking that since BMS devices have over-current protection baked-in, > fusing at the battery would not be necessary for BMS equipped batteries in > any case. Do you agree with that premise? > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 15 13:35:38 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 10:35:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BMS as OCPD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk: First of all, I apologize for the typo in the subject line. I fixed it. I take my writing seriously but sometimes my devices fight me with autocorrect. You make good point regarding a scenario with a battery combiner. Relying on multiple BMSs for OCP would be a bad choice. Fortunately some cabinets come with breakers and those should be sufficient. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 9:50 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > Hello William- > > I agree with your approach. > > I never historically have OCPD'ed lead acids at both ends of the battery > cable run, but do now, esp. with high kwh LFP, where a DC combiner is in > use. > > For instance, I had to design a 2000 ADC bus @ a nominal 55 vdc, for a 500 > kwh Blue Ion LFP bank. To create enough space for cables and fuses, I > started with -2- 2000A Midnite combiners, using one for positive and one > for negative. > > Class T fuses are bolted directly to the DC bus (properly sized copper > from copper.org charts), and the BI BMS breaker protects at each > respective battery cabinet. > > Same thing on the DC to inverter cables, class T's bolted to the bus, to > its respective outback Radian, where the standard 175A breaker resides. > > I would never again do a building power system of any type or size without > both ends of a power cable (point of use & point of origin) being > protected, A best practice IMO. > > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 1:13 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> When I design a lead-acid battery system I decide if I need over-current >> protection right at the battery or not. My logic is: if the leads are >> short, don’t go through a wall and are well protected, I can rely on OCPD >> in the BOS cabinets. If any of these criteria is a no I put appropriately >> rated class T fuses right at the battery. >> >> I’m thinking that since BMS devices have over-current protection >> baked-in, fusing at the battery would not be necessary for BMS equipped >> batteries in any case. Do you agree with that premise? >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 15:13:59 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 13:13:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sunny island and lithium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2FA3B7F0-C1AC-4D4B-B637-E39F85463ED7@gmail.com> Thanks William, Yes it’s AC coupled which I neglected to include. Given how inexpensive the new inverter gear is, the age of the old stuff and seemingly the complication of integration I will propose replacement of both inverter and battery. thanks jay > On Jul 15, 2025, at 8:44 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > If the system is AC coupled I would suggest you dump the Sunny Islands immediately. > > We are soon going to wreck out 4 SIs and install 2 envy 12s. The SIs just would not work AC coupled to e-vault 18s. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 6:43 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> HI All, >> >> I might be inheriting a 12 yr old SI off grid system, that has a dying Absolyte battery. >> >> >> I know there have been some discussions on the SI and lithium. >> >> I’m just trying to understand what the options are with closed vs open loop, basically can it be done. >> >> If I do get the project, I will happily pay someone who’s done all the hard work for the education to tell me what the programming steps are. >> >> And at what point does it make sense to just remove the SI and install a AIO? >> >> thanks in advance. >> >> jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garyhsolari at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 15:28:58 2025 From: garyhsolari at gmail.com (Gary Handelin) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 12:28:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sunny island and lithium In-Reply-To: <2FA3B7F0-C1AC-4D4B-B637-E39F85463ED7@gmail.com> References: <2FA3B7F0-C1AC-4D4B-B637-E39F85463ED7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, If they want to keep their SI's, a couple of years ago I successfully replaced an iron Edison battery with 3 Fortress evault batteries closed loop. Had to update SI firmware and get all evault batteries to same firmware but it was pretty straight forward. Ran it open loop for a month or two until I got all the firmware updated. It's off grid with SB11k for AC coupling. Can share the programming with you if interested. Gary On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 12:14 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thanks William, > > Yes it’s AC coupled which I neglected to include. > > Given how inexpensive the new inverter gear is, the age of the old stuff > and seemingly the complication of integration I will propose replacement of > both inverter and battery. > > thanks > > jay > > > > > > On Jul 15, 2025, at 8:44 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > If the system is AC coupled I would suggest you dump the Sunny Islands > immediately. > > We are soon going to wreck out 4 SIs and install 2 envy 12s. The SIs just > would not work AC coupled to e-vault 18s. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 6:43 AM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I might be inheriting a 12 yr old SI off grid system, that has a dying >> Absolyte battery. >> >> >> I know there have been some discussions on the SI and lithium. >> >> I’m just trying to understand what the options are with closed vs open >> loop, basically can it be done. >> >> If I do get the project, I will happily pay someone who’s done all the >> hard work for the education to tell me what the programming steps are. >> >> And at what point does it make sense to just remove the SI and install a >> AIO? >> >> thanks in advance. >> >> jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 15:38:57 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 13:38:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sunny island and lithium In-Reply-To: <2FA3B7F0-C1AC-4D4B-B637-E39F85463ED7@gmail.com> References: <2FA3B7F0-C1AC-4D4B-B637-E39F85463ED7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, The trick with a good lithium experience with Sunny Island is to have a way to give the Sunny Island the state of charge of the lithium battery. The AC coupling works really well if it knows where the batteries are. The built in algorithm for calculating SOC can't handle Lithium very accurately. They do have a battery mode called Ext BMS that works via RS485 (I believe). A company called New Sun Road ( https://newsunroad.com/contact/) has a microgrid box that was used by Blue Ion for a while to aggregate the BMS data and tell the Sunny Island what the state of charge is. It may be worth calling them and talking with them about what battery you would like to integrate with. With that, the Sunny Island works great. I've had a quad stack humming along for about 4 years without an issue. Economically, it still may make sense to ditch the Sunny Islands. Good Luck! On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 1:15 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thanks William, > > Yes it’s AC coupled which I neglected to include. > > Given how inexpensive the new inverter gear is, the age of the old stuff > and seemingly the complication of integration I will propose replacement of > both inverter and battery. > > thanks > > jay > > > > > > On Jul 15, 2025, at 8:44 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > If the system is AC coupled I would suggest you dump the Sunny Islands > immediately. > > We are soon going to wreck out 4 SIs and install 2 envy 12s. The SIs just > would not work AC coupled to e-vault 18s. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 6:43 AM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I might be inheriting a 12 yr old SI off grid system, that has a dying >> Absolyte battery. >> >> >> I know there have been some discussions on the SI and lithium. >> >> I’m just trying to understand what the options are with closed vs open >> loop, basically can it be done. >> >> If I do get the project, I will happily pay someone who’s done all the >> hard work for the education to tell me what the programming steps are. >> >> And at what point does it make sense to just remove the SI and install a >> AIO? >> >> thanks in advance. >> >> jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 15:49:21 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 13:49:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sunny island and lithium In-Reply-To: References: <2FA3B7F0-C1AC-4D4B-B637-E39F85463ED7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <86F5E770-26D3-45E4-8B9A-0F18CCD80C24@gmail.com> Hi Mac and everyone Where I go with things these days is maximum reliability. Having to use 3rd party products to communicate or making sure the firmware is up to date between multiple OEMS leads to all sorts of issues in my experience. Now some of you are super tech savvy which makes this all fun and easy. Me not so much. Fortress in the future recommends some update that doesn’t work with the SI which isn’t supported, not their problem, which it isn’t. This sunroof company goes belly up, removing the box, no comms. Given the level of communication now requested if not required between equipment, having OEM battery and inverter greatly keeps things simpler. I’ll keep you all updated. thanks jay > On Jul 15, 2025, at 1:38 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > The trick with a good lithium experience with Sunny Island is to have a way to give the Sunny Island the state of charge of the lithium battery. The AC coupling works really well if it knows where the batteries are. The built in algorithm for calculating SOC can't handle Lithium very accurately. > They do have a battery mode called Ext BMS that works via RS485 (I believe). A company called New Sun Road ( https://newsunroad.com/contact/) has a microgrid box that was used by Blue Ion for a while to aggregate the BMS data and tell the Sunny Island what the state of charge is. It may be worth calling them and talking with them about what battery you would like to integrate with. With that, the Sunny Island works great. I've had a quad stack humming along for about 4 years without an issue. > > Economically, it still may make sense to ditch the Sunny Islands. > > Good Luck! > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 1:15 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Thanks William, >> >> Yes it’s AC coupled which I neglected to include. >> >> Given how inexpensive the new inverter gear is, the age of the old stuff and seemingly the complication of integration I will propose replacement of both inverter and battery. >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jul 15, 2025, at 8:44 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>> If the system is AC coupled I would suggest you dump the Sunny Islands immediately. >>> >>> We are soon going to wreck out 4 SIs and install 2 envy 12s. The SIs just would not work AC coupled to e-vault 18s. >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 6:43 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> HI All, >>>> >>>> I might be inheriting a 12 yr old SI off grid system, that has a dying Absolyte battery. >>>> >>>> >>>> I know there have been some discussions on the SI and lithium. >>>> >>>> I’m just trying to understand what the options are with closed vs open loop, basically can it be done. >>>> >>>> If I do get the project, I will happily pay someone who’s done all the hard work for the education to tell me what the programming steps are. >>>> >>>> And at what point does it make sense to just remove the SI and install a AIO? >>>> >>>> thanks in advance. >>>> >>>> jay >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jul 15 15:52:47 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 12:52:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BMS as OCOD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree as long as you have a long history with the battery/BMS. Since all of this is so new or constantly changing I would add a class T as it has a minor chance of being a failure item. When I was testing this for Schneider, even they added the T fuse for insurance as no-one had tested the internal T fuse and contactor. Cheap insurance. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-07-14 10:12 pm, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > Friends: > > When I design a lead-acid battery system I decide if I need > over-current protection right at the battery or not. My logic is: if > the leads are short, don't go through a wall and are well protected, I > can rely on OCPD in the BOS cabinets. If any of these criteria is a no > I put appropriately rated class T fuses right at the battery. > > I'm thinking that since BMS devices have over-current protection > baked-in, fusing at the battery would not be necessary for BMS equipped > batteries in any case. Do you agree with that premise? > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com [1] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Tue Jul 15 16:33:38 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 13:33:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is this closed loop or open loop? If closed loop the "rules" require the machine to stay shutdown until the "issue" is identified. On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That's my understanding as well. Sure would be cool if there was an > automatic reconnect mode that could be set. > > > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 7:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> With this new breed of AIO inverters, when the battery reaches low >> voltage disconnect, do they all need manual intervention to restart >> inverting? >> >> I'm having an issue with a Midnite AIO with a stack of Pytes batteries >> that reset themselves for a yet undiagnosed reason. The DC Battery voltage >> goes to zero on the inverter for a moment, and then returns. The problem >> is, it requires manual intervention to push the button to turn the inverter >> back on. It does not happen automatically. That's not good for an unmanned >> remote site. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Jul 15 17:20:21 2025 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 17:20:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mr. Bryce, As offgrid is our biggest piece of the pie, I too would like to have the AIO power back up when voltage is at an acceptable level just as our OB's, Magnum's and Xantrex's have been for years. My hope is that in the very near future a firmware upgrade would make this a selectable feature. Much appreciated, Christopher On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 4:35 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Is this closed loop or open loop? If closed loop the "rules" require the > machine to stay shutdown until the "issue" is identified. > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> That's my understanding as well. Sure would be cool if there was an >> automatic reconnect mode that could be set. >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 7:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> With this new breed of AIO inverters, when the battery reaches low >>> voltage disconnect, do they all need manual intervention to restart >>> inverting? >>> >>> I'm having an issue with a Midnite AIO with a stack of Pytes batteries >>> that reset themselves for a yet undiagnosed reason. The DC Battery voltage >>> goes to zero on the inverter for a moment, and then returns. The problem >>> is, it requires manual intervention to push the button to turn the inverter >>> back on. It does not happen automatically. That's not good for an unmanned >>> remote site. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 17:25:19 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 15:25:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <728E71BB-DA81-4E3B-B3CD-DD3D60C57C92@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 15 18:41:18 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 15:41:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: <728E71BB-DA81-4E3B-B3CD-DD3D60C57C92@gmail.com> References: <728E71BB-DA81-4E3B-B3CD-DD3D60C57C92@gmail.com> Message-ID: Friends: Could one set the inverter LBCO slightly above the battery LBCO? The inverter is controlling the shut down and the battery does not go into alarm. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 2:26 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I can’t agree more that auto restart is a requirement. > A well designed system that has the inverter shut off( shut down or not > sure what the correct term is) due to low battery should restart in the > morning. > > Now I could easily see that it will have to get to some X amount of SOC or > volts or watts of input before it connects the AC loads. > > Jay > > > > On Jul 15, 2025, at 3:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Mr. Bryce, > > As offgrid is our biggest piece of the pie, I too would like to have the > AIO power back up when voltage is at an acceptable level just as our OB's, > Magnum's and Xantrex's have been for years. My hope is that in the very > near future a firmware upgrade would make this a selectable feature. > > Much appreciated, > Christopher > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 4:35 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Is this closed loop or open loop? If closed loop the "rules" require the >> machine to stay shutdown until the "issue" is identified. >> >> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> That's my understanding as well. Sure would be cool if there was an >>> automatic reconnect mode that could be set. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 7:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> With this new breed of AIO inverters, when the battery reaches low >>>> voltage disconnect, do they all need manual intervention to restart >>>> inverting? >>>> >>>> I'm having an issue with a Midnite AIO with a stack of Pytes batteries >>>> that reset themselves for a yet undiagnosed reason. The DC Battery voltage >>>> goes to zero on the inverter for a moment, and then returns. The problem >>>> is, it requires manual intervention to push the button to turn the inverter >>>> back on. It does not happen automatically. That's not good for an unmanned >>>> remote site. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > **www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 19:44:09 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 19:44:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: References: <728E71BB-DA81-4E3B-B3CD-DD3D60C57C92@gmail.com> Message-ID: These are useful suggestions for how to deal with low battery conditions, however I understand Jason's situation to be a hardware or firmware issue - the inverter temporarily reads battery voltage or SOC as 0% and shuts off, needing manual intervention to turn back on. I'm not sure if i am having the same issue on at least a couple of sites with an AIO and 1 or 2 PF16s in closed loop, by I've seen the inverters without warning seemingly loose the batteries (which are in a relatively high SOC - 70-80%), see no SOC, then shut itself off. So far the client has gotten the inverter back to on by shutting it down entirely and restarting it. It fires back up and operates fine as though nothing has happened. Anyone else experiencing that? Howie Sun Catcher On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 6:43 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > Could one set the inverter LBCO slightly above the battery LBCO? The > inverter is controlling the shut down and the battery does not go into > alarm. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 2:26 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I can’t agree more that auto restart is a requirement. >> A well designed system that has the inverter shut off( shut down or not >> sure what the correct term is) due to low battery should restart in the >> morning. >> >> Now I could easily see that it will have to get to some X amount of SOC >> or volts or watts of input before it connects the AC loads. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Jul 15, 2025, at 3:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Mr. Bryce, >> >> As offgrid is our biggest piece of the pie, I too would like to have the >> AIO power back up when voltage is at an acceptable level just as our OB's, >> Magnum's and Xantrex's have been for years. My hope is that in the very >> near future a firmware upgrade would make this a selectable feature. >> >> Much appreciated, >> Christopher >> >> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 4:35 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Is this closed loop or open loop? If closed loop the "rules" require >>> the machine to stay shutdown until the "issue" is identified. >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> That's my understanding as well. Sure would be cool if there was an >>>> automatic reconnect mode that could be set. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 7:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> With this new breed of AIO inverters, when the battery reaches low >>>>> voltage disconnect, do they all need manual intervention to restart >>>>> inverting? >>>>> >>>>> I'm having an issue with a Midnite AIO with a stack of Pytes batteries >>>>> that reset themselves for a yet undiagnosed reason. The DC Battery voltage >>>>> goes to zero on the inverter for a moment, and then returns. The problem >>>>> is, it requires manual intervention to push the button to turn the inverter >>>>> back on. It does not happen automatically. That's not good for an unmanned >>>>> remote site. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> **www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Tue Jul 15 20:55:22 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 14:55:22 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: References: <728E71BB-DA81-4E3B-B3CD-DD3D60C57C92@gmail.com> Message-ID: We definitely experience that. Mostly with Sol-Ark and Homegrid. Generator even starts but it is not quick enough to do anything. Have the client power cycle and everything is fine. Had this happen last week, batteries were at 79%. Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 1:44 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > These are useful suggestions for how to deal with low battery conditions, > however I understand Jason's situation to be a hardware or firmware issue - > the inverter temporarily reads battery voltage or SOC as 0% and shuts off, > needing manual intervention to turn back on. I'm not sure if i am having > the same issue on at least a couple of sites with an AIO and 1 or 2 PF16s > in closed loop, by I've seen the inverters without warning seemingly loose > the batteries (which are in a relatively high SOC - 70-80%), see no SOC, > then shut itself off. So far the client has gotten the inverter back to on > by shutting it down entirely and restarting it. It fires back up and > operates fine as though nothing has happened. Anyone else experiencing > that? > Howie > Sun Catcher > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 6:43 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> Could one set the inverter LBCO slightly above the battery LBCO? The >> inverter is controlling the shut down and the battery does not go into >> alarm. >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 2:26 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I can’t agree more that auto restart is a requirement. >>> A well designed system that has the inverter shut off( shut down or not >>> sure what the correct term is) due to low battery should restart in the >>> morning. >>> >>> Now I could easily see that it will have to get to some X amount of SOC >>> or volts or watts of input before it connects the AC loads. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 15, 2025, at 3:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Mr. Bryce, >>> >>> As offgrid is our biggest piece of the pie, I too would like to have the >>> AIO power back up when voltage is at an acceptable level just as our OB's, >>> Magnum's and Xantrex's have been for years. My hope is that in the very >>> near future a firmware upgrade would make this a selectable feature. >>> >>> Much appreciated, >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 4:35 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Is this closed loop or open loop? If closed loop the "rules" require >>>> the machine to stay shutdown until the "issue" is identified. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> That's my understanding as well. Sure would be cool if there was an >>>>> automatic reconnect mode that could be set. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 7:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> With this new breed of AIO inverters, when the battery reaches low >>>>>> voltage disconnect, do they all need manual intervention to restart >>>>>> inverting? >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm having an issue with a Midnite AIO with a stack of Pytes >>>>>> batteries that reset themselves for a yet undiagnosed reason. The DC >>>>>> Battery voltage goes to zero on the inverter for a moment, and then >>>>>> returns. The problem is, it requires manual intervention to push the button >>>>>> to turn the inverter back on. It does not happen automatically. That's not >>>>>> good for an unmanned remote site. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> >>> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> **www.solarandwindfx.com >>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> * >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Tue Jul 15 21:03:27 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 18:03:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: <728E71BB-DA81-4E3B-B3CD-DD3D60C57C92@gmail.com> References: <728E71BB-DA81-4E3B-B3CD-DD3D60C57C92@gmail.com> Message-ID: MNP has a plan for a “off grid” firmware specification, that will mirror the old UL1741 that was found in the old SW inverters. This will be under the Grid Tab, and will remove all the ESS requirements. MNP does not have firm timeline for this, but it is on the near term list. On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 2:26 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I can’t agree more that auto restart is a requirement. > A well designed system that has the inverter shut off( shut down or not > sure what the correct term is) due to low battery should restart in the > morning. > > Now I could easily see that it will have to get to some X amount of SOC or > volts or watts of input before it connects the AC loads. > > Jay > > > > On Jul 15, 2025, at 3:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Mr. Bryce, > > As offgrid is our biggest piece of the pie, I too would like to have the > AIO power back up when voltage is at an acceptable level just as our OB's, > Magnum's and Xantrex's have been for years. My hope is that in the very > near future a firmware upgrade would make this a selectable feature. > > Much appreciated, > Christopher > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 4:35 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Is this closed loop or open loop? If closed loop the "rules" require the >> machine to stay shutdown until the "issue" is identified. >> >> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> That's my understanding as well. Sure would be cool if there was an >>> automatic reconnect mode that could be set. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 7:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> With this new breed of AIO inverters, when the battery reaches low >>>> voltage disconnect, do they all need manual intervention to restart >>>> inverting? >>>> >>>> I'm having an issue with a Midnite AIO with a stack of Pytes batteries >>>> that reset themselves for a yet undiagnosed reason. The DC Battery voltage >>>> goes to zero on the inverter for a moment, and then returns. The problem >>>> is, it requires manual intervention to push the button to turn the inverter >>>> back on. It does not happen automatically. That's not good for an unmanned >>>> remote site. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > **www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue Jul 15 21:22:05 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 21:22:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: References: <728E71BB-DA81-4E3B-B3CD-DD3D60C57C92@gmail.com> Message-ID: Generally speaking, with these respective AIO inverters, where is the supposed SOC being calculated from and how often is that source manually or auto calibrated? I only have experience in AIOs with Fortress inverters and their evault batteries. I had a situation where the house went dark when closed-loop SOC read 35%. Some may remember from this forum, Fortress confirmed battery volts had to go above 55v to auto recalibrate. It was a Vermont mid-winter and the customer never turned on the genny because he thought the bats were safely at 35%., Actually they were close to 0% due to the lack of winter recalibration. On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 8:56 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We definitely experience that. Mostly with Sol-Ark and Homegrid. Generator > even starts but it is not quick enough to do anything. Have the client > power cycle and everything is fine. Had this happen last week, batteries > were at 79%. > > Aloha, > Lou Russo > Spree Solar Systems LLC > C-34322 > > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 1:44 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> These are useful suggestions for how to deal with low battery conditions, >> however I understand Jason's situation to be a hardware or firmware issue - >> the inverter temporarily reads battery voltage or SOC as 0% and shuts off, >> needing manual intervention to turn back on. I'm not sure if i am having >> the same issue on at least a couple of sites with an AIO and 1 or 2 PF16s >> in closed loop, by I've seen the inverters without warning seemingly loose >> the batteries (which are in a relatively high SOC - 70-80%), see no SOC, >> then shut itself off. So far the client has gotten the inverter back to on >> by shutting it down entirely and restarting it. It fires back up and >> operates fine as though nothing has happened. Anyone else experiencing >> that? >> Howie >> Sun Catcher >> >> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 6:43 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Friends: >>> >>> Could one set the inverter LBCO slightly above the battery LBCO? The >>> inverter is controlling the shut down and the battery does not go into >>> alarm. >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 2:26 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I can’t agree more that auto restart is a requirement. >>>> A well designed system that has the inverter shut off( shut down or not >>>> sure what the correct term is) due to low battery should restart in the >>>> morning. >>>> >>>> Now I could easily see that it will have to get to some X amount of SOC >>>> or volts or watts of input before it connects the AC loads. >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 15, 2025, at 3:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> Mr. Bryce, >>>> >>>> As offgrid is our biggest piece of the pie, I too would like to have >>>> the AIO power back up when voltage is at an acceptable level just as our >>>> OB's, Magnum's and Xantrex's have been for years. My hope is that in the >>>> very near future a firmware upgrade would make this a selectable feature. >>>> >>>> Much appreciated, >>>> Christopher >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 4:35 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Is this closed loop or open loop? If closed loop the "rules" require >>>>> the machine to stay shutdown until the "issue" is identified. >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That's my understanding as well. Sure would be cool if there was an >>>>>> automatic reconnect mode that could be set. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 7:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> With this new breed of AIO inverters, when the battery reaches low >>>>>>> voltage disconnect, do they all need manual intervention to restart >>>>>>> inverting? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm having an issue with a Midnite AIO with a stack of Pytes >>>>>>> batteries that reset themselves for a yet undiagnosed reason. The DC >>>>>>> Battery voltage goes to zero on the inverter for a moment, and then >>>>>>> returns. The problem is, it requires manual intervention to push the button >>>>>>> to turn the inverter back on. It does not happen automatically. That's not >>>>>>> good for an unmanned remote site. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Chris Schaefer’s >>>> >>>> >>>> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>>> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>>> **www.solarandwindfx.com >>>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 21:49:34 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 19:49:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19A04BA0-8AF8-4ACC-88C2-315F3D940A39@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 21:50:50 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 18:50:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sunny island and lithium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, Wrenches, Fortress works great, no closed loop from any battery manufacturer and the SI Inverter, l got a great price on the fortress, we should talk Jerry On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 6:43 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All, > > I might be inheriting a 12 yr old SI off grid system, that has a dying > Absolyte battery. > > > I know there have been some discussions on the SI and lithium. > > I’m just trying to understand what the options are with closed vs open > loop, basically can it be done. > > If I do get the project, I will happily pay someone who’s done all the > hard work for the education to tell me what the programming steps are. > > And at what point does it make sense to just remove the SI and install a > AIO? > > thanks in advance. > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 21:59:10 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 19:59:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sunny island and lithium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2EAB54F6-B173-45DA-9043-5080ECB1F087@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 22:26:50 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 22:26:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: References: <728E71BB-DA81-4E3B-B3CD-DD3D60C57C92@gmail.com> Message-ID: Kirk, if the batteries are in closed loop, the SOC is being reported by the battery BMS. In open loop, my understanding is the SOC is usually less accurate as it is calculated by the inverter based on our programming settings. The SOC calculation in closed loop is based on much more data (collected by the BMS), but also depends on the level of sophistication of that firmware. The assumed SOC can get significantly out of whack with the actual, especially if they are top balanced with some regularity. What that frequency of required top balancing varies from product to product. The inverter calculated SOC (open loop) is generally less accurate and probably requires more regular top balancing than closed loop, to remain within a reasonable estimate of the actual SOC. Howie On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 9:24 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Generally speaking, with these respective AIO inverters, where is the > supposed SOC being calculated from and how often is that source manually or > auto calibrated? > > I only have experience in AIOs with Fortress inverters and their evault > batteries. I had a situation where the house went dark when closed-loop SOC > read 35%. > > Some may remember from this forum, Fortress confirmed battery volts had to > go above 55v to auto recalibrate. It was a Vermont mid-winter and the > customer never turned on the genny because he thought the bats were safely > at 35%., Actually they were close to 0% due to the lack of winter > recalibration. > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 8:56 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We definitely experience that. Mostly with Sol-Ark and Homegrid. >> Generator even starts but it is not quick enough to do anything. Have >> the client power cycle and everything is fine. Had this happen last week, >> batteries were at 79%. >> >> Aloha, >> Lou Russo >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> C-34322 >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 1:44 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> These are useful suggestions for how to deal with low battery >>> conditions, however I understand Jason's situation to be a hardware or >>> firmware issue - the inverter temporarily reads battery voltage or SOC as >>> 0% and shuts off, needing manual intervention to turn back on. I'm not >>> sure if i am having the same issue on at least a couple of sites with an >>> AIO and 1 or 2 PF16s in closed loop, by I've seen the inverters without >>> warning seemingly loose the batteries (which are in a relatively high SOC >>> - 70-80%), see no SOC, then shut itself off. So far the client has gotten >>> the inverter back to on by shutting it down entirely and restarting it. It >>> fires back up and operates fine as though nothing has happened. Anyone >>> else experiencing that? >>> Howie >>> Sun Catcher >>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 16 07:20:48 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 07:20:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: References: <728E71BB-DA81-4E3B-B3CD-DD3D60C57C92@gmail.com> Message-ID: This particular system is open loop at this time (which we set to try to diagnose the battery random shutdown issue) but the same thing was happening in closed loop (Pytes E-Box). Am off-grid firmware is exactly what we need here. Customers "upgrading" from old Trace SW inverters or others are actually getting a downgrade in terms of autonomy. These new systems need babysitting. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 9:04 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > MNP has a plan for a “off grid” firmware specification, that will mirror > the old UL1741 that was found in the old SW inverters. This will be under > the Grid Tab, and will remove all the ESS requirements. MNP does not have > firm timeline for this, but it is on the near term list. > > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 2:26 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I can’t agree more that auto restart is a requirement. >> A well designed system that has the inverter shut off( shut down or not >> sure what the correct term is) due to low battery should restart in the >> morning. >> >> Now I could easily see that it will have to get to some X amount of SOC >> or volts or watts of input before it connects the AC loads. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Jul 15, 2025, at 3:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Mr. Bryce, >> >> As offgrid is our biggest piece of the pie, I too would like to have the >> AIO power back up when voltage is at an acceptable level just as our OB's, >> Magnum's and Xantrex's have been for years. My hope is that in the very >> near future a firmware upgrade would make this a selectable feature. >> >> Much appreciated, >> Christopher >> >> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 4:35 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Is this closed loop or open loop? If closed loop the "rules" require >>> the machine to stay shutdown until the "issue" is identified. >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> That's my understanding as well. Sure would be cool if there was an >>>> automatic reconnect mode that could be set. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 7:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> With this new breed of AIO inverters, when the battery reaches low >>>>> voltage disconnect, do they all need manual intervention to restart >>>>> inverting? >>>>> >>>>> I'm having an issue with a Midnite AIO with a stack of Pytes batteries >>>>> that reset themselves for a yet undiagnosed reason. The DC Battery voltage >>>>> goes to zero on the inverter for a moment, and then returns. The problem >>>>> is, it requires manual intervention to push the button to turn the inverter >>>>> back on. It does not happen automatically. That's not good for an unmanned >>>>> remote site. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> **www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 16 07:23:52 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 07:23:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BMS as OCPD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I like the Midnite 1000/2000A battery combiners for this purpose. The 250A DC breakers are not cheap, but they add a level of convenience and protection that I think it worthwhile. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 1:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Kirk: > > First of all, I apologize for the typo in the subject line. I fixed it. I > take my writing seriously but sometimes my devices fight me with > autocorrect. > > You make good point regarding a scenario with a battery combiner. Relying > on multiple BMSs for OCP would be a bad choice. > > Fortunately some cabinets come with breakers and those should be > sufficient. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 9:50 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > >> Hello William- >> >> I agree with your approach. >> >> I never historically have OCPD'ed lead acids at both ends of the battery >> cable run, but do now, esp. with high kwh LFP, where a DC combiner is in >> use. >> >> For instance, I had to design a 2000 ADC bus @ a nominal 55 vdc, for a >> 500 kwh Blue Ion LFP bank. To create enough space for cables and fuses, I >> started with -2- 2000A Midnite combiners, using one for positive and one >> for negative. >> >> Class T fuses are bolted directly to the DC bus (properly sized copper >> from copper.org charts), and the BI BMS breaker protects at each >> respective battery cabinet. >> >> Same thing on the DC to inverter cables, class T's bolted to the bus, to >> its respective outback Radian, where the standard 175A breaker resides. >> >> I would never again do a building power system of any type or size >> without both ends of a power cable (point of use & point of origin) being >> protected, A best practice IMO. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 1:13 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Friends: >>> >>> When I design a lead-acid battery system I decide if I need over-current >>> protection right at the battery or not. My logic is: if the leads are >>> short, don’t go through a wall and are well protected, I can rely on OCPD >>> in the BOS cabinets. If any of these criteria is a no I put appropriately >>> rated class T fuses right at the battery. >>> >>> I’m thinking that since BMS devices have over-current protection >>> baked-in, fusing at the battery would not be necessary for BMS equipped >>> batteries in any case. Do you agree with that premise? >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Jul 16 07:55:27 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 06:55:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92D063E3-FBC7-4559-B95D-8D4FCB5F992D@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 16 07:57:33 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 11:57:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: <92D063E3-FBC7-4559-B95D-8D4FCB5F992D@mavericksolar.com> References: <92D063E3-FBC7-4559-B95D-8D4FCB5F992D@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <1388957d-ece3-82b2-da36-fc6564f2e527@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Yes, we have Solar Assistant. But the problem is that the Raspberry Pi reboots because it is connected to power directly from the battery. When the battery BMS shuts down and reboots, so does the Pi. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 7:55 AM Maverick Brown wrote: > Jason > > > Does the system have Solar Assistant and will that have the granularity to > spot an actual voltage drop? > > > The Victron SmartShunt is a good tool to add to the system, it will capture > voltage and current and you can reward the data with a Bluetooth phone or > tablet.  > > > Thank you, > > > Maverick > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >  • Solar Commander Remote Power >  • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection  > maverick at mavericksolar.com [maverick at mavericksolar.com] > 512-460-9825 > > > > > > > > > On Jul 16, 2025, at 6:21 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > > > wrote: > > >  > > This particular system is open loop at this time (which we set to try to > > diagnose the battery random shutdown issue) but the same thing was happening > > in closed loop (Pytes E-Box). > > > > > > Am off-grid firmware is exactly what we need here. Customers "upgrading" > > from old Trace SW inverters or others are actually getting a downgrade in > > terms of autonomy. These new systems need babysitting. > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///wAAACwAAAAAAQABAAACAkQBADs=3D] > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 9:04 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > > > > wrote: > > > > > MNP  has a plan for a “off grid”  firmware specification, that will mirror > > > the old UL1741  that was found in the old SW inverters. This will be under > > > the Grid Tab, and will remove all the ESS requirements.  MNP does not have > > > firm timeline for this, but it is on the near term list.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 2:26 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > > wrenches.org [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> wrote: > > > > > > > I can’t agree more that auto restart is a requirement.  > > > > A well designed system that has the inverter shut off( shut down or not > > > > sure what the correct term is) due to low battery should restart in the > > > > morning.  > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I could easily see that it will have to get to some X amount of SOC > > > > or volts or watts of input before it connects the AC loads.  > > > > > > > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 15, 2025, at 3:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > Mr. Bryce, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As offgrid is our biggest piece of the pie, I too would like to have > > > > > the AIO power back up when voltage is at an acceptable level just as > > > > > our OB's, Magnum's and Xantrex's have been for years. My hope is that > > > > > in the very near future a firmware upgrade would make this a > > > > > selectable feature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Much appreciated, > > > > > Christopher > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 4:35 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Is this closed loop or open loop?  If closed loop the "rules" > > > > > > require the machine to stay shutdown until the "issue" is > > > > > > identified. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > > > > > > > > > > > [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's my understanding as well. Sure would be cool if there was > > > > > > > an automatic reconnect mode that could be set.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 7:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > > > > > > > > > > > > [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With this new breed of AIO inverters, when the battery reaches > > > > > > > > low voltage disconnect, do they all need manual intervention to > > > > > > > > restart inverting? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm having an issue with a Midnite AIO with a stack of Pytes > > > > > > > > batteries that reset themselves for a yet undiagnosed reason. > > > > > > > > The DC Battery voltage goes to zero on the inverter for a > > > > > > > > moment, and then returns. The problem is, it requires manual > > > > > > > > intervention to push the button to turn the inverter back on. It > > > > > > > > does not happen automatically. That's not good for an unmanned > > > > > > > > remote site.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > > > Florida Solar Design Group  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re- > > > > > > > > wrenches.org > > > > > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try > > > > the other: > > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > > other: > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 08:36:15 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 06:36:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <449DF723-ADDA-4070-9D79-ACB571A7472A@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 09:20:18 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 07:20:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BMS as OCPD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <036FB345-EECE-4ED8-A40E-A2EADD84DBDE@gmail.com> I always use breakers more because they are easy to reset and visible if tripped. And if a class T fuse blows, you don’t actually know it and then you have the situation of having to go out to replace a $100 fuse or have the customer replace a fuse with live ends which I stopped doing a long time ago. I wonder if midnite power is going to build a combiner box with breakers. I’m sure the breakers used in their batteries are way less expensive than the big 250’s we have used. I’d sure like to see one. A question on the Class T fuses. Is it UL ok to mount the fuses not in a fuse holder? Like to a buss bar? jay > On Jul 16, 2025, at 5:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I like the Midnite 1000/2000A battery combiners for this purpose. The 250A DC breakers are not cheap, but they add a level of convenience and protection that I think it worthwhile. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 1:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Kirk: >> >> First of all, I apologize for the typo in the subject line. I fixed it. I take my writing seriously but sometimes my devices fight me with autocorrect. >> >> You make good point regarding a scenario with a battery combiner. Relying on multiple BMSs for OCP would be a bad choice. >> >> Fortunately some cabinets come with breakers and those should be sufficient. >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 9:50 AM Kirk Herander wrote: >>> Hello William- >>> >>> I agree with your approach. >>> >>> I never historically have OCPD'ed lead acids at both ends of the battery cable run, but do now, esp. with high kwh LFP, where a DC combiner is in use. >>> >>> For instance, I had to design a 2000 ADC bus @ a nominal 55 vdc, for a 500 kwh Blue Ion LFP bank. To create enough space for cables and fuses, I started with -2- 2000A Midnite combiners, using one for positive and one for negative. >>> >>> Class T fuses are bolted directly to the DC bus (properly sized copper from copper.org charts), and the BI BMS breaker protects at each respective battery cabinet. >>> >>> Same thing on the DC to inverter cables, class T's bolted to the bus, to its respective outback Radian, where the standard 175A breaker resides. >>> >>> I would never again do a building power system of any type or size without both ends of a power cable (point of use & point of origin) being protected, A best practice IMO. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 1:13 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> Friends: >>>> >>>> When I design a lead-acid battery system I decide if I need over-current protection right at the battery or not. My logic is: if the leads are short, don’t go through a wall and are well protected, I can rely on OCPD in the BOS cabinets. If any of these criteria is a no I put appropriately rated class T fuses right at the battery. >>>> >>>> I’m thinking that since BMS devices have over-current protection baked-in, fusing at the battery would not be necessary for BMS equipped batteries in any case. Do you agree with that premise? >>>> >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> Miller Solar.com >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> <> >>> Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh at vermont.solar >>> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC >>> Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!! >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> 802.559.1225 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Jul 16 12:45:54 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 09:45:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: <449DF723-ADDA-4070-9D79-ACB571A7472A@gmail.com> References: <449DF723-ADDA-4070-9D79-ACB571A7472A@gmail.com> Message-ID: One of my customers has a UPS so that Solar Assistant and router don’t rely on the big residential battery bank, in order to keep data flowing. On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 5:36 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason can you remind us what equipment is being used? > > Jay > > On Jul 16, 2025, at 5:21 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > This particular system is open loop at this time (which we set to try to > diagnose the battery random shutdown issue) but the same thing was > happening in closed loop (Pytes E-Box). > > Am off-grid firmware is exactly what we need here. Customers "upgrading" > from old Trace SW inverters or others are actually getting a downgrade in > terms of autonomy. These new systems need babysitting. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 9:04 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> MNP has a plan for a “off grid” firmware specification, that will >> mirror the old UL1741 that was found in the old SW inverters. This will be >> under the Grid Tab, and will remove all the ESS requirements. MNP does not >> have firm timeline for this, but it is on the near term list. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 2:26 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I can’t agree more that auto restart is a requirement. >>> A well designed system that has the inverter shut off( shut down or not >>> sure what the correct term is) due to low battery should restart in the >>> morning. >>> >>> Now I could easily see that it will have to get to some X amount of SOC >>> or volts or watts of input before it connects the AC loads. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 15, 2025, at 3:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Mr. Bryce, >>> >>> As offgrid is our biggest piece of the pie, I too would like to have the >>> AIO power back up when voltage is at an acceptable level just as our OB's, >>> Magnum's and Xantrex's have been for years. My hope is that in the very >>> near future a firmware upgrade would make this a selectable feature. >>> >>> Much appreciated, >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 4:35 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Is this closed loop or open loop? If closed loop the "rules" require >>>> the machine to stay shutdown until the "issue" is identified. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> That's my understanding as well. Sure would be cool if there was an >>>>> automatic reconnect mode that could be set. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 7:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> With this new breed of AIO inverters, when the battery reaches low >>>>>> voltage disconnect, do they all need manual intervention to restart >>>>>> inverting? >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm having an issue with a Midnite AIO with a stack of Pytes >>>>>> batteries that reset themselves for a yet undiagnosed reason. The DC >>>>>> Battery voltage goes to zero on the inverter for a moment, and then >>>>>> returns. The problem is, it requires manual intervention to push the button >>>>>> to turn the inverter back on. It does not happen automatically. That's not >>>>>> good for an unmanned remote site. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> >>> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> **www.solarandwindfx.com >>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> * >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 16 14:29:15 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 14:29:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: <449DF723-ADDA-4070-9D79-ACB571A7472A@gmail.com> References: <449DF723-ADDA-4070-9D79-ACB571A7472A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Midnite AIO with 8 x Pytes 48100R E-Box. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 8:36 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason can you remind us what equipment is being used? > > Jay > > On Jul 16, 2025, at 5:21 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > This particular system is open loop at this time (which we set to try to > diagnose the battery random shutdown issue) but the same thing was > happening in closed loop (Pytes E-Box). > > Am off-grid firmware is exactly what we need here. Customers "upgrading" > from old Trace SW inverters or others are actually getting a downgrade in > terms of autonomy. These new systems need babysitting. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 9:04 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> MNP has a plan for a “off grid” firmware specification, that will >> mirror the old UL1741 that was found in the old SW inverters. This will be >> under the Grid Tab, and will remove all the ESS requirements. MNP does not >> have firm timeline for this, but it is on the near term list. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 2:26 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I can’t agree more that auto restart is a requirement. >>> A well designed system that has the inverter shut off( shut down or not >>> sure what the correct term is) due to low battery should restart in the >>> morning. >>> >>> Now I could easily see that it will have to get to some X amount of SOC >>> or volts or watts of input before it connects the AC loads. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 15, 2025, at 3:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Mr. Bryce, >>> >>> As offgrid is our biggest piece of the pie, I too would like to have the >>> AIO power back up when voltage is at an acceptable level just as our OB's, >>> Magnum's and Xantrex's have been for years. My hope is that in the very >>> near future a firmware upgrade would make this a selectable feature. >>> >>> Much appreciated, >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 4:35 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Is this closed loop or open loop? If closed loop the "rules" require >>>> the machine to stay shutdown until the "issue" is identified. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> That's my understanding as well. Sure would be cool if there was an >>>>> automatic reconnect mode that could be set. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 7:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> With this new breed of AIO inverters, when the battery reaches low >>>>>> voltage disconnect, do they all need manual intervention to restart >>>>>> inverting? >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm having an issue with a Midnite AIO with a stack of Pytes >>>>>> batteries that reset themselves for a yet undiagnosed reason. The DC >>>>>> Battery voltage goes to zero on the inverter for a moment, and then >>>>>> returns. The problem is, it requires manual intervention to push the button >>>>>> to turn the inverter back on. It does not happen automatically. That's not >>>>>> good for an unmanned remote site. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> >>> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> **www.solarandwindfx.com >>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> * >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 14:36:19 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 12:36:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: References: <449DF723-ADDA-4070-9D79-ACB571A7472A@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think you said you’ve tried it open and closed loop same issue. In the open loop are the batteries connected via comm cables between the batteries? and do you know if they are connected together via comms does that mean they will all shut down if one shuts down? And you’re sure it’s not some weird load that is shutting the inverter off? jay > On Jul 16, 2025, at 12:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Midnite AIO with 8 x Pytes 48100R E-Box. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 8:36 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Jason can you remind us what equipment is being used? >> >> Jay >> >>> On Jul 16, 2025, at 5:21 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> This particular system is open loop at this time (which we set to try to diagnose the battery random shutdown issue) but the same thing was happening in closed loop (Pytes E-Box). >>> >>> Am off-grid firmware is exactly what we need here. Customers "upgrading" from old Trace SW inverters or others are actually getting a downgrade in terms of autonomy. These new systems need babysitting. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 9:04 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> MNP has a plan for a “off grid” firmware specification, that will mirror the old UL1741 that was found in the old SW inverters. This will be under the Grid Tab, and will remove all the ESS requirements. MNP does not have firm timeline for this, but it is on the near term list. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 2:26 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> I can’t agree more that auto restart is a requirement. >>>>> A well designed system that has the inverter shut off( shut down or not sure what the correct term is) due to low battery should restart in the morning. >>>>> >>>>> Now I could easily see that it will have to get to some X amount of SOC or volts or watts of input before it connects the AC loads. >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 15, 2025, at 3:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> Mr. Bryce, >>>>>> >>>>>> As offgrid is our biggest piece of the pie, I too would like to have the AIO power back up when voltage is at an acceptable level just as our OB's, Magnum's and Xantrex's have been for years. My hope is that in the very near future a firmware upgrade would make this a selectable feature. >>>>>> >>>>>> Much appreciated, >>>>>> Christopher >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 4:35 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>> Is this closed loop or open loop? If closed loop the "rules" require the machine to stay shutdown until the "issue" is identified. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>> That's my understanding as well. Sure would be cool if there was an automatic reconnect mode that could be set. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 7:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>>> With this new breed of AIO inverters, when the battery reaches low voltage disconnect, do they all need manual intervention to restart inverting? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm having an issue with a Midnite AIO with a stack of Pytes batteries that reset themselves for a yet undiagnosed reason. The DC Battery voltage goes to zero on the inverter for a moment, and then returns. The problem is, it requires manual intervention to push the button to turn the inverter back on. It does not happen automatically. That's not good for an unmanned remote site. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 16 14:41:28 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 18:41:28 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Battery Low/Lost Behavior In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In open loop there is no cable between the batteries and the inverter, but the batteries are connected together and communicating with each other. I am certain it is a battery issue because the leader battery will fault out, and then the whole stack comes back to life automatically. I have been working with Pytes on this issue.  There are no loads large enough at this site to overwhelm the inverter. In fact, it typically bounces from 50W - 500W all day and night when the home is unoccupied. So I know it's a battery 0V issue that is causing the inverter to turn off. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 2:36 PM jay wrote: > I think you said you’ve tried it open and closed loop same issue. > In the open loop are the batteries connected via comm cables between the > batteries? > and do you know if they are connected together via comms does that mean they > will all shut down if one shuts down? > > > And you’re sure it’s not some weird load that is shutting the inverter off?   > > > jay > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 16, 2025, at 12:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski > floridasolardesigngroup.com [jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com]> wrote: > > > > Midnite AIO with 8 x Pytes 48100R E-Box. > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///wAAACwAAAAAAQABAAACAkQBADs=3D] > > On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 8:36 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrenches.org [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> wrote: > > > > > Jason can you remind us what equipment is being used? > > > > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 16, 2025, at 5:21 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >  > > > > This particular system is open loop at this time (which we set to try to > > > > diagnose the battery random shutdown issue) but the same thing was > > > > happening in closed loop (Pytes E-Box). > > > > > > > > > > > > Am off-grid firmware is exactly what we need here. Customers "upgrading" > > > > from old Trace SW inverters or others are actually getting a downgrade > > > > in terms of autonomy. These new systems need babysitting. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > > > > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > > > > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 9:04 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > MNP  has a plan for a “off grid”  firmware specification, that will > > > > > mirror the old UL1741  that was found in the old SW inverters. This > > > > > will be under the Grid Tab, and will remove all the ESS requirements.  > > > > > MNP does not have firm timeline for this, but it is on the near term > > > > > list.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 2:26 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I can’t agree more that auto restart is a requirement.  > > > > > > A well designed system that has the inverter shut off( shut down or > > > > > > not sure what the correct term is) due to low battery should restart > > > > > > in the morning.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now I could easily see that it will have to get to some X amount of > > > > > > SOC or volts or watts of input before it connects the AC loads.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 15, 2025, at 3:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches > > > > > > > > > > > > > [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > Mr. Bryce, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As offgrid is our biggest piece of the pie, I too would like to > > > > > > > have the AIO power back up when voltage is at an acceptable level > > > > > > > just as our OB's, Magnum's and Xantrex's have been for years. My > > > > > > > hope is that in the very near future a firmware upgrade would make > > > > > > > this a selectable feature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Much appreciated, > > > > > > > Christopher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 4:35 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > > > > > > > > > > > > > [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this closed loop or open loop?  If closed loop the "rules" > > > > > > > > require the machine to stay shutdown until the "issue" is > > > > > > > > identified. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's my understanding as well. Sure would be cool if there > > > > > > > > > was an automatic reconnect mode that could be set.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >     > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 15, 2025, 7:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With this new breed of AIO inverters, when the battery > > > > > > > > > > reaches low voltage disconnect, do they all need manual > > > > > > > > > > intervention to restart inverting? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm having an issue with a Midnite AIO with a stack of Pytes > > > > > > > > > > batteries that reset themselves for a yet undiagnosed > > > > > > > > > > reason. The DC Battery voltage goes to zero on the inverter > > > > > > > > > > for a moment, and then returns. The problem is, it requires > > > > > > > > > > manual intervention to push the button to turn the inverter > > > > > > > > > > back on. It does not happen automatically. That's not good > > > > > > > > > > for an unmanned remote site.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > > > > > Florida Solar Design Group  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > [http://re-wrenches.org/] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re- > > > > > > > > > > wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > > > > > > > > > > work, try the other: > > > > > > > > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > > > > > > > > > > org/ > > > > > > > > > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re- > > > > > > > > > > wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > > > > > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > [http://re-wrenches.org/] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > > > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re- > > > > > > > > > wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the > > > other: > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 16 15:52:06 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 15:52:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combining two PowerFlo16 to single Midnite AIO Message-ID: What is the most elegant way to combine two of the Powerflo16 batteries when using a single AIO? The manual doesn't require fusing when paralleling 3 or fewer batteries. I was thinking about a Victron Lynx Distributor inside an enclosure, but that enclosure would have to be quite large to accommodate all of that (four 2/0 in, two 4/0 out), and since fuses aren't required, standard busbars would probably be much smaller and simpler. I like how the EG4 batteries have a matching conduit box and parallel bussing is integrated. I want something equally elegant for the PowerFlo16. It's too bad we can't parallel right at the battery terminals. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From earthandsol at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 19:17:23 2025 From: earthandsol at gmail.com (Chris Lancaster) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 18:17:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combining two PowerFlo16 to single Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You can, just put the first battery cable lug on upside down then the second one right side up. I have installed 2 Systems with a pair of Midnite powerflo 16 batteries on a single Midnite AIO and they have worked great. Chris Lancaster Earth&Sun Consulting Sewanee Tn On Wed, Jul 16, 2025, 2:53 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > What is the most elegant way to combine two of the Powerflo16 batteries > when using a single AIO? > > The manual doesn't require fusing when paralleling 3 or fewer batteries. I > was thinking about a Victron Lynx Distributor inside an enclosure, but that > enclosure would have to be quite large to accommodate all of that (four 2/0 > in, two 4/0 out), and since fuses aren't required, standard busbars would > probably be much smaller and simpler. I like how the EG4 batteries have a > matching conduit box and parallel bussing is integrated. I want something > equally elegant for the PowerFlo16. It's too bad we can't parallel right at > the battery terminals. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 19:24:40 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 16:24:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combining two PowerFlo16 to single Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree. With one inverter and two batteries just face the lugs toward each other and land on the inverter battery terminals. Nice long posts accommodate that method nicely! On Wed, Jul 16, 2025, 12:52 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > What is the most elegant way to combine two of the Powerflo16 batteries > when using a single AIO? > > The manual doesn't require fusing when paralleling 3 or fewer batteries. I > was thinking about a Victron Lynx Distributor inside an enclosure, but that > enclosure would have to be quite large to accommodate all of that (four 2/0 > in, two 4/0 out), and since fuses aren't required, standard busbars would > probably be much smaller and simpler. I like how the EG4 batteries have a > matching conduit box and parallel bussing is integrated. I want something > equally elegant for the PowerFlo16. It's too bad we can't parallel right at > the battery terminals. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Wed Jul 16 19:26:39 2025 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 16:26:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combining two PowerFlo16 to single Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, Is there room to double up cables inside the AIO? Two equal length sets of battery cables between the batteries and the AIO should work. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 7/16/2025 12:52 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > What is the most elegant way to combine two of the Powerflo16 > batteries when using a single AIO? > > The manual doesn't require fusing when paralleling 3 or fewer > batteries. I was thinking about a Victron Lynx Distributor inside an > enclosure, but that enclosure would have to be quite large to > accommodate all of that (four 2/0 in, two 4/0 out), and since fuses > aren't required, standard busbars would probably be much smaller and > simpler. I like how the EG4 batteries have a matching conduit box and > parallel bussing is integrated. I want something equally elegant for > the PowerFlo16. It's too bad we can't parallel right at the battery > terminals. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Jul 16 20:11:09 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 19:11:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combining two PowerFlo16 to single Midnite AIO Message-ID: I suggest Lynx Power In or Lynx Class-T Power In (M10) with fuses. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Jul 16, 2025, at 2:53 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >  > What is the most elegant way to combine two of the Powerflo16 batteries when using a single AIO? > > The manual doesn't require fusing when paralleling 3 or fewer batteries. I was thinking about a Victron Lynx Distributor inside an enclosure, but that enclosure would have to be quite large to accommodate all of that (four 2/0 in, two 4/0 out), and since fuses aren't required, standard busbars would probably be much smaller and simpler. I like how the EG4 batteries have a matching conduit box and parallel bussing is integrated. I want something equally elegant for the PowerFlo16. It's too bad we can't parallel right at the battery terminals. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 16 20:17:53 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 20:17:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combining two PowerFlo16 to single Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ok, this was my initial instinct. I was wondering why the AIO doesn't have dual battery inputs. But if you can fit two lugs on each terminal, I don't see why not. I just wish these manufacturers would produce better manuals. EG4 is doing better (not great, but better). Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Jul 16, 2025, 7:28 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > > Is there room to double up cables inside the AIO? Two equal length sets of > battery cables between the batteries and the AIO should work. > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 7/16/2025 12:52 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > What is the most elegant way to combine two of the Powerflo16 batteries > when using a single AIO? > > The manual doesn't require fusing when paralleling 3 or fewer batteries. I > was thinking about a Victron Lynx Distributor inside an enclosure, but that > enclosure would have to be quite large to accommodate all of that (four 2/0 > in, two 4/0 out), and since fuses aren't required, standard busbars would > probably be much smaller and simpler. I like how the EG4 batteries have a > matching conduit box and parallel bussing is integrated. I want something > equally elegant for the PowerFlo16. It's too bad we can't parallel right at > the battery terminals. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 20:35:14 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 17:35:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combining two PowerFlo16 to single Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The lynx is awesome too especially with 3 or more batteries or of you need fusing....needs a big enclosure though... I fit one in a 10x10 gutter once but I probably won't do that again as it was pretty tight. On Wed, Jul 16, 2025, 5:19 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Ok, this was my initial instinct. I was wondering why the AIO doesn't have > dual battery inputs. But if you can fit two lugs on each terminal, I don't > see why not. > > I just wish these manufacturers would produce better manuals. EG4 is doing > better (not great, but better). > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Wed, Jul 16, 2025, 7:28 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, >> >> Is there room to double up cables inside the AIO? Two equal length sets >> of battery cables between the batteries and the AIO should work. >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 7/16/2025 12:52 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> What is the most elegant way to combine two of the Powerflo16 batteries >> when using a single AIO? >> >> The manual doesn't require fusing when paralleling 3 or fewer batteries. >> I was thinking about a Victron Lynx Distributor inside an enclosure, but >> that enclosure would have to be quite large to accommodate all of that >> (four 2/0 in, two 4/0 out), and since fuses aren't required, standard >> busbars would probably be much smaller and simpler. I like how the EG4 >> batteries have a matching conduit box and parallel bussing is integrated. I >> want something equally elegant for the PowerFlo16. It's too bad we can't >> parallel right at the battery terminals. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Wed Jul 16 21:03:29 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 19:03:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combining two PowerFlo16 to single Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: MNP- PF batteries are designed to allow stacking of two lugs per terminal, providing greater flexibility in system wiring. Also, MNP is excited to welcome a new team member with strong installation experience. He is currently working on revising and improving all of our manuals. Positive changes are on the way. On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 6:19 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Ok, this was my initial instinct. I was wondering why the AIO doesn't have > dual battery inputs. But if you can fit two lugs on each terminal, I don't > see why not. > > I just wish these manufacturers would produce better manuals. EG4 is doing > better (not great, but better). > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Wed, Jul 16, 2025, 7:28 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, >> >> Is there room to double up cables inside the AIO? Two equal length sets >> of battery cables between the batteries and the AIO should work. >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 7/16/2025 12:52 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> What is the most elegant way to combine two of the Powerflo16 batteries >> when using a single AIO? >> >> The manual doesn't require fusing when paralleling 3 or fewer batteries. >> I was thinking about a Victron Lynx Distributor inside an enclosure, but >> that enclosure would have to be quite large to accommodate all of that >> (four 2/0 in, two 4/0 out), and since fuses aren't required, standard >> busbars would probably be much smaller and simpler. I like how the EG4 >> batteries have a matching conduit box and parallel bussing is integrated. I >> want something equally elegant for the PowerFlo16. It's too bad we can't >> parallel right at the battery terminals. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 16 21:15:49 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 21:15:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combining two PowerFlo16 to single Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have used the Lynk Power In and Distributor, but I find they need a 12x12 wiring trough when using 4/0 conductors. I do like the product. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Jul 16, 2025, 8:35 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The lynx is awesome too especially with 3 or more batteries or of you need > fusing....needs a big enclosure though... I fit one in a 10x10 gutter once > but I probably won't do that again as it was pretty tight. > > > > On Wed, Jul 16, 2025, 5:19 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Ok, this was my initial instinct. I was wondering why the AIO doesn't >> have dual battery inputs. But if you can fit two lugs on each terminal, I >> don't see why not. >> >> I just wish these manufacturers would produce better manuals. EG4 is >> doing better (not great, but better). >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Wed, Jul 16, 2025, 7:28 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Jason, >>> >>> Is there room to double up cables inside the AIO? Two equal length sets >>> of battery cables between the batteries and the AIO should work. >>> Kent Osterberg >>> Blue Mountain Solar >>> >>> >>> On 7/16/2025 12:52 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> What is the most elegant way to combine two of the Powerflo16 batteries >>> when using a single AIO? >>> >>> The manual doesn't require fusing when paralleling 3 or fewer batteries. >>> I was thinking about a Victron Lynx Distributor inside an enclosure, but >>> that enclosure would have to be quite large to accommodate all of that >>> (four 2/0 in, two 4/0 out), and since fuses aren't required, standard >>> busbars would probably be much smaller and simpler. I like how the EG4 >>> batteries have a matching conduit box and parallel bussing is integrated. I >>> want something equally elegant for the PowerFlo16. It's too bad we can't >>> parallel right at the battery terminals. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 16 21:16:50 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 21:16:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combining two PowerFlo16 to single Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is that documented anywhere now? I would love to eliminate the superfluous busbars if possible. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Jul 16, 2025, 9:03 PM William Bryce wrote: > MNP- PF batteries are designed to allow stacking of two lugs per terminal, > providing greater flexibility in system wiring. > > Also, MNP is excited to welcome a new team member with strong installation > experience. He is currently working on revising and improving all of our > manuals. Positive changes are on the way. > > On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 6:19 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Ok, this was my initial instinct. I was wondering why the AIO doesn't >> have dual battery inputs. But if you can fit two lugs on each terminal, I >> don't see why not. >> >> I just wish these manufacturers would produce better manuals. EG4 is >> doing better (not great, but better). >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Wed, Jul 16, 2025, 7:28 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Jason, >>> >>> Is there room to double up cables inside the AIO? Two equal length sets >>> of battery cables between the batteries and the AIO should work. >>> Kent Osterberg >>> Blue Mountain Solar >>> >>> >>> On 7/16/2025 12:52 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> What is the most elegant way to combine two of the Powerflo16 batteries >>> when using a single AIO? >>> >>> The manual doesn't require fusing when paralleling 3 or fewer batteries. >>> I was thinking about a Victron Lynx Distributor inside an enclosure, but >>> that enclosure would have to be quite large to accommodate all of that >>> (four 2/0 in, two 4/0 out), and since fuses aren't required, standard >>> busbars would probably be much smaller and simpler. I like how the EG4 >>> batteries have a matching conduit box and parallel bussing is integrated. I >>> want something equally elegant for the PowerFlo16. It's too bad we can't >>> parallel right at the battery terminals. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Jul 17 10:10:40 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 14:10:40 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is there a domestic content reqt for batteries effective now? For Residential? In-Reply-To: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: I consider myself mostly pretty aware of policy issues that effect business but this paragraph in a Seeking Alpha investment article caught my eye. Is there a new domestic content reqt for batteries in residential installations? "The higher domestic content batteries comply with the new requirement in the U.S. federal budget law, which retroactively enforces a 45% U.S.-sourced materials threshold for solar and battery products starting June 16, 2025." https://seekingalpha.com/news/4468352-enphase-energy-begins-shipments-of-iq-battery-5p-with-higher-domestic-content#source=first_level_url%3Aportfolio%7Ccontent_type%3Aall%7Csection%3Aportfolio_content_unit%7Csection_asset%3Alatest%7Cline%3A1 [https://static.seekingalpha.com/assets/og_image_1200-29b2bfe1a595477db6826bd2126c63ac2091efb7ec76347a8e7f81ba17e3de6c.png] Enphase Energy begins shipments of IQ Battery 5P with higher domestic content - Seeking Alpha Discover Enphase Energy's new IQ Battery 5P with increased U.S.-sourced materials, complying with updated federal standards. seekingalpha.com Wanting to make sure I'm not setting up this years customers for issues getting the 30% Federal tax credit/ Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Thu Jul 17 11:02:12 2025 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 15:02:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is there a domestic content reqt for batteries effective now? For Residential? In-Reply-To: References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: This might be related to the technical correction to wording of 48E on percentages of domestic content?? * Correction to Domestic Content Percentages Under 48E: The domestic content applicable percentage under 48E for qualified facilities and energy storage technology would be revised to match current 45Y as follows: * 40% (or 20% for offshore wind) if construction begins before June 16, 2025; * 45% (or 27.5% for offshore wind) if construction begins after June 16, 2025, and before Jan. 1, 2026; * 50% (or 35% for offshore wind) if construction begins during 2026; and * 55% if construction begins after Dec. 31, 2026. This content percentage wont matter to residential system owners - 25D still goes away at EOY, no domestic content requirements... Only folks leasing systems can get the credit, THEN domestic content matters. PV Magazine has good summary article. https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/07/10/what-the-budget-bill-means-for-energy-storage-tax-credit-eligibility/ Wannabe residential battery owners will likely feel the most immediate impact of the OBBB. Updates to the 25D residential solar tax credit, which covers solar panels, solar water heaters and related property like home battery storage systems, have significantly shortened the timeline for homeowners to access the credit. Now, home batteries will only qualify for the 30% tax credit if they're purchased and installed by the end of the year before the credit phases out entirely. There is a bright spot: residential systems leased from third parties will remain eligible for tax credits beyond 2025, as they rely on 48E instead of 25D. Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America +1 916 918 9412 SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings [cid:image001.jpg at 01DBF6F8.3FEB9E50] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2025 8:11 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: scot.arey at solarcentex.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is there a domestic content reqt for batteries effective now? For Residential? I consider myself mostly pretty aware of policy issues that effect business but this paragraph in a Seeking Alpha investment article caught my eye. Is there a new domestic content reqt for batteries in residential installations? "The higher domestic content batteries comply with the new requirement in the U.S. federal budget law, which retroactively enforces a 45% U.S.-sourced materials threshold for solar and battery products starting June 16, 2025." https://seekingalpha.com/news/4468352-enphase-energy-begins-shipments-of-iq-battery-5p-with-higher-domestic-content#source=first_level_url%3Aportfolio%7Ccontent_type%3Aall%7Csection%3Aportfolio_content_unit%7Csection_asset%3Alatest%7Cline%3A1 [https://static.seekingalpha.com/assets/og_image_1200-29b2bfe1a595477db6826bd2126c63ac2091efb7ec76347a8e7f81ba17e3de6c.png] Enphase Energy begins shipments of IQ Battery 5P with higher domestic content - Seeking Alpha Discover Enphase Energy's new IQ Battery 5P with increased U.S.-sourced materials, complying with updated federal standards. seekingalpha.com Wanting to make sure I'm not setting up this years customers for issues getting the 30% Federal tax credit/ Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 68542 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Thu Jul 17 11:36:36 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 08:36:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Domestic content requirements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Keep in mind that residential customers will be under section 25, not 45 or 48 which are commercial and utility sections... I believe that the end bill did not include any domestic content provisions for section 25, just a sunset of it on December 31st this year. But I always tell customers to check with their accountants to verify. Zeke -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Thu Jul 17 11:40:31 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 08:40:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Paralleling two PF16 batteries on Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have done several systems where we just paralleled two batteries on the battery terminals, just like we'd do with lead acid batteries, with a reverse return for the home runs. With the active balancing, the reverse return is apparently not as important, but I still think it's best practice. MidNite Power is working on a custom gutter/wiring box for coupling the PF16's directly to the AIO, but not sure on timeline for it. I've seen a few really nice installs where someone used a standard 10" gutter with cutouts in it directly on top of the PF16's, then set the AIO's on top of that. No exposed wiring or even conduit showing. Zeke -- Zeke Yewdall PV Engineer NABCEP #031508-89 zeke at darkforestsolar.com 303-523-3592 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 15:32:03 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 13:32:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] removing old abosolyte cells. In-Reply-To: References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: <043421BE-62EB-4E19-905D-57D5478B4689@gmail.com> I was out at the job site today with the customer with the old SI 4548. It’s going away, primarily because she wants a mini split and her inverter is too small at this point. She has of course a abosolyte battery, 6 cells per stack. I don’t know if they will slide out or not. But just thought I’d ask if anyone has any tricks. Oh and no it’s in a side room, no way to get any heavy equipment in there, and each stack is about 600# Maybe I could get an engine hoist in there, but outside the door is dirt and gravel and its a long ways to where I can put the trailer. I am anticipating having to remove the cells to deal with it. Cutting it apart with a right angle grinder is about the only trick I know. But I’m guessing there are others. Fortunately I can install the new equipment on the other wall so I don’t need to get the batteries out quickly. thanks in advance jay From david at quattrosolar.com Thu Jul 17 15:38:05 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 15:38:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] removing old abosolyte cells. In-Reply-To: <043421BE-62EB-4E19-905D-57D5478B4689@gmail.com> References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> <043421BE-62EB-4E19-905D-57D5478B4689@gmail.com> Message-ID: If it’s not too steep you can continually leapfrog two or 3 pieces of plywood, and roll your engine dolly on that. Or you can use a few cuts of large diameter pipe as rollers. On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I was out at the job site today with the customer with the old SI 4548. > It’s going away, primarily because she wants a mini split and her inverter > is too small at this point. > > She has of course a abosolyte battery, 6 cells per stack. > I don’t know if they will slide out or not. > > But just thought I’d ask if anyone has any tricks. > Oh and no it’s in a side room, no way to get any heavy equipment in there, > and each stack is about 600# > > Maybe I could get an engine hoist in there, but outside the door is dirt > and gravel and its a long ways to where I can put the trailer. > I am anticipating having to remove the cells to deal with it. > Cutting it apart with a right angle grinder is about the only trick I > know. But I’m guessing there are others. > > Fortunately I can install the new equipment on the other wall so I don’t > need to get the batteries out quickly. > > thanks in advance > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Jul 17 16:08:04 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 16:08:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Residential_credits=3A_buy_now=2C_instal?= =?utf-8?b?bCBsYXRlcuKApj8/Pz8/?= In-Reply-To: References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Residential tax credit: https://pv-magazine-usa.us13.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2790e780a1533f4bc05c8679a&id= Apparently, the bills wording allows a full purchase or procurement of a residential system to be eligible for the tax credits if purchased before they expire at the end of 2025. Systems do not need to be installed before the end of the year. If accurate, no “placed in service” 2025 deadline. “With respect to the Jan 2026 end of Section 25D(residential tax credit), experts agree that the determination of whether a homeowner qualifies has shifted from the previous “placed in service” test to the bill’s new “expenditures made” test.” “If the homeowner pays for the installation in 2025, they could lock in the credit, even if the system is placed in service later,” said Bryen Alperin, Partner & Managing Director at Foss & Company." *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 11:04 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > This might be related to the technical correction to wording of 48E on > percentages of domestic content?? > > > > - Correction to Domestic Content Percentages Under 48E: The domestic > content applicable percentage under 48E for qualified facilities and energy > storage technology would be revised to match current 45Y as follows: > - 40% (or 20% for offshore wind) if construction begins before June > 16, 2025; > - 45% (or 27.5% for offshore wind) if construction begins after > June 16, 2025, and before Jan. 1, 2026; > - 50% (or 35% for offshore wind) if construction begins during > 2026; and > - 55% if construction begins after Dec. 31, 2026. > > > > > > This content percentage wont matter to residential system owners – 25D > still goes away at EOY, no domestic content requirements... > > Only folks leasing systems can get the credit, THEN domestic content > matters. PV Magazine has good summary article. > > > https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/07/10/what-the-budget-bill-means-for-energy-storage-tax-credit-eligibility/ > > > > Wannabe residential battery owners will likely feel the most immediate > impact of the OBBB. > > Updates to the 25D residential solar tax credit, which covers solar > panels, solar water heaters and related property like home battery storage > systems, have significantly shortened the timeline for homeowners to access > the credit. > > Now, home batteries will only qualify for the 30% tax credit if they’re > purchased and installed by the end of the year before the credit phases out > entirely. > > There is a bright spot: residential systems leased from third parties will > remain eligible for tax credits beyond 2025, as they rely on 48E instead of > 25D. > > > > > > > > > > > *Michael Mahon* (he/him) > Solar Academy Manager | SMA America > > +1 916 918 9412 > SMA America | Solar Academy > | TechTip Channel > > | Upcoming Academy Trainings > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or > any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, July 17, 2025 8:11 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* scot.arey at solarcentex.com > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Is there a domestic content reqt for batteries > effective now? For Residential? > > > > > > > > I consider myself mostly pretty aware of policy issues that effect > business but this paragraph in a Seeking Alpha investment article caught my > eye. Is there a new domestic content reqt for batteries in residential > installations? > > > > "The higher domestic content batteries comply with the new requirement in > the U.S. federal budget law, which retroactively enforces a 45% > U.S.-sourced materials threshold for solar and battery products starting > June 16, 2025." > https://seekingalpha.com/news/4468352-enphase-energy-begins-shipments-of-iq-battery-5p-with-higher-domestic-content#source=first_level_url%3Aportfolio%7Ccontent_type%3Aall%7Csection%3Aportfolio_content_unit%7Csection_asset%3Alatest%7Cline%3A1 > > > > > Enphase Energy begins shipments of IQ Battery 5P with higher domestic > content - Seeking Alpha > > > Discover Enphase Energy's new IQ Battery 5P with increased U.S.-sourced > materials, complying with updated federal standards. > > seekingalpha.com > > > > Wanting to make sure I'm not setting up this years customers for issues > getting the 30% Federal tax credit/ > > > > > > *Howard "Scot" Arey* > > *Owner, Solar CenTex* > > > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > TECL 29755 > > 254-300-1228 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 68542 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 16:14:16 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 14:14:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] removing old abosolyte cells. In-Reply-To: References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> <043421BE-62EB-4E19-905D-57D5478B4689@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4679F499-5DEA-4661-AE2D-450756E1A7D2@gmail.com> I’ll give that some thought. It’s too steep and narrow but it’s not too far to the road which maybe I could just pull them with the nearby tractor and a long rope. thanks > On Jul 17, 2025, at 1:38 PM, david quattro wrote: > > If it’s not too steep you can continually leapfrog two or 3 pieces of plywood, and roll your engine dolly on that. Or you can use a few cuts of large diameter pipe as rollers. > > > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> I was out at the job site today with the customer with the old SI 4548. >> It’s going away, primarily because she wants a mini split and her inverter is too small at this point. >> >> She has of course a abosolyte battery, 6 cells per stack. >> I don’t know if they will slide out or not. >> >> But just thought I’d ask if anyone has any tricks. >> Oh and no it’s in a side room, no way to get any heavy equipment in there, and each stack is about 600# >> >> Maybe I could get an engine hoist in there, but outside the door is dirt and gravel and its a long ways to where I can put the trailer. >> I am anticipating having to remove the cells to deal with it. >> Cutting it apart with a right angle grinder is about the only trick I know. But I’m guessing there are others. >> >> Fortunately I can install the new equipment on the other wall so I don’t need to get the batteries out quickly. >> >> thanks in advance >> >> jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Jul 17 16:22:58 2025 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 16:22:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] removing old abosolyte cells. In-Reply-To: <4679F499-5DEA-4661-AE2D-450756E1A7D2@gmail.com> References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> <043421BE-62EB-4E19-905D-57D5478B4689@gmail.com> <4679F499-5DEA-4661-AE2D-450756E1A7D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Jay, Does this look like what you are dealing with? Christopher On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 4:14 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I’ll give that some thought. > > It’s too steep and narrow but it’s not too far to the road which maybe I > could just pull them with the nearby tractor and a long rope. > > thanks > > > On Jul 17, 2025, at 1:38 PM, david quattro wrote: > > If it’s not too steep you can continually leapfrog two or 3 pieces of > plywood, and roll your engine dolly on that. Or you can use a few cuts of > large diameter pipe as rollers. > > > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I was out at the job site today with the customer with the old SI 4548. >> It’s going away, primarily because she wants a mini split and her >> inverter is too small at this point. >> >> She has of course a abosolyte battery, 6 cells per stack. >> I don’t know if they will slide out or not. >> >> But just thought I’d ask if anyone has any tricks. >> Oh and no it’s in a side room, no way to get any heavy equipment in >> there, and each stack is about 600# >> >> Maybe I could get an engine hoist in there, but outside the door is dirt >> and gravel and its a long ways to where I can put the trailer. >> I am anticipating having to remove the cells to deal with it. >> Cutting it apart with a right angle grinder is about the only trick I >> know. But I’m guessing there are others. >> >> Fortunately I can install the new equipment on the other wall so I don’t >> need to get the batteries out quickly. >> >> thanks in advance >> >> jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20161129_115628.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 111634 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 16:25:37 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 14:25:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] removing old abosolyte cells. In-Reply-To: References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> <043421BE-62EB-4E19-905D-57D5478B4689@gmail.com> <4679F499-5DEA-4661-AE2D-450756E1A7D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <637A1872-0174-4DBD-95B2-976B04CD6ABD@gmail.com> Yes. Absolyte GP 90G18 6 x 2v cells per stack 4 stacks weight is about 100# per cell, or roughly 700# per stack. > On Jul 17, 2025, at 2:22 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > Hey Jay, > > Does this look like what you are dealing with? > > Christopher > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 4:14 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> I’ll give that some thought. >> >> It’s too steep and narrow but it’s not too far to the road which maybe I could just pull them with the nearby tractor and a long rope. >> >> thanks >> >> >>> On Jul 17, 2025, at 1:38 PM, david quattro > wrote: >>> >>> If it’s not too steep you can continually leapfrog two or 3 pieces of plywood, and roll your engine dolly on that. Or you can use a few cuts of large diameter pipe as rollers. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> I was out at the job site today with the customer with the old SI 4548. >>>> It’s going away, primarily because she wants a mini split and her inverter is too small at this point. >>>> >>>> She has of course a abosolyte battery, 6 cells per stack. >>>> I don’t know if they will slide out or not. >>>> >>>> But just thought I’d ask if anyone has any tricks. >>>> Oh and no it’s in a side room, no way to get any heavy equipment in there, and each stack is about 600# >>>> >>>> Maybe I could get an engine hoist in there, but outside the door is dirt and gravel and its a long ways to where I can put the trailer. >>>> I am anticipating having to remove the cells to deal with it. >>>> Cutting it apart with a right angle grinder is about the only trick I know. But I’m guessing there are others. >>>> >>>> Fortunately I can install the new equipment on the other wall so I don’t need to get the batteries out quickly. >>>> >>>> thanks in advance >>>> >>>> jay >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > <20161129_115628.jpg> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Thu Jul 17 16:38:39 2025 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 15:38:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] removing old abosolyte cells. In-Reply-To: <637A1872-0174-4DBD-95B2-976B04CD6ABD@gmail.com> References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> <043421BE-62EB-4E19-905D-57D5478B4689@gmail.com> <4679F499-5DEA-4661-AE2D-450756E1A7D2@gmail.com> <637A1872-0174-4DBD-95B2-976B04CD6ABD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Somebody was kind to you that specified those cells. Use a "Big Joe" type manual forklift and bring the platform up to the battery height and slide the cells out. Once near the ground you can just hand carry them. Two people can wrestle those out, even from the top cells, but it is real work. I use to do about 10k lbs of those in a day before being too exhausted. We routinely do 18k lb Absolyte battery loads with four people carrying the batteries from the helicopter landing zone and into the building. Four people hustling it usually takes a bit over an hour. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:27 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yes. > > Absolyte GP 90G18 > 6 x 2v cells per stack > 4 stacks > weight is about 100# per cell, or roughly 700# per stack. > > On Jul 17, 2025, at 2:22 PM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: > > Hey Jay, > > Does this look like what you are dealing with? > > Christopher > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 4:14 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I’ll give that some thought. >> >> It’s too steep and narrow but it’s not too far to the road which maybe I >> could just pull them with the nearby tractor and a long rope. >> >> thanks >> >> >> On Jul 17, 2025, at 1:38 PM, david quattro >> wrote: >> >> If it’s not too steep you can continually leapfrog two or 3 pieces of >> plywood, and roll your engine dolly on that. Or you can use a few cuts of >> large diameter pipe as rollers. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I was out at the job site today with the customer with the old SI 4548. >>> It’s going away, primarily because she wants a mini split and her >>> inverter is too small at this point. >>> >>> She has of course a abosolyte battery, 6 cells per stack. >>> I don’t know if they will slide out or not. >>> >>> But just thought I’d ask if anyone has any tricks. >>> Oh and no it’s in a side room, no way to get any heavy equipment in >>> there, and each stack is about 600# >>> >>> Maybe I could get an engine hoist in there, but outside the door is dirt >>> and gravel and its a long ways to where I can put the trailer. >>> I am anticipating having to remove the cells to deal with it. >>> Cutting it apart with a right angle grinder is about the only trick I >>> know. But I’m guessing there are others. >>> >>> Fortunately I can install the new equipment on the other wall so I don’t >>> need to get the batteries out quickly. >>> >>> thanks in advance >>> >>> jay >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > <20161129_115628.jpg> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Jul 17 16:43:54 2025 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 16:43:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] removing old abosolyte cells. In-Reply-To: <637A1872-0174-4DBD-95B2-976B04CD6ABD@gmail.com> References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> <043421BE-62EB-4E19-905D-57D5478B4689@gmail.com> <4679F499-5DEA-4661-AE2D-450756E1A7D2@gmail.com> <637A1872-0174-4DBD-95B2-976B04CD6ABD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I just removed 72 cells last week, about 75lbs each. When the original installer installed these the room was wide open and they had use of heavy equipment. Then they installed a wall which provided about 3 foot of clearance. Fun times. Best thing to do is to make sure they haven't been charged for a few days as they will contract just enough. Also you'll want to make sure the temperature of the room is around 70 degrees or cooler as this will also help with the sliding them out. You may end up with a couple of stubborn ones and for that I came up with this rudimentary rig consisting of 2x4's to winch them out with a ratchet tie down. In the attached picture the rig is not attached to the wall. I needed just enough room to winch them out about 2/3rds of the way and then they came out. Did this with just two people. One person can easily lift them. Should be able to zoom in on the picture for details. If you need more info feel free to call me. Christopher On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 4:25 PM jay wrote: > Yes. > > Absolyte GP 90G18 > 6 x 2v cells per stack > 4 stacks > weight is about 100# per cell, or roughly 700# per stack. > > On Jul 17, 2025, at 2:22 PM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: > > Hey Jay, > > Does this look like what you are dealing with? > > Christopher > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 4:14 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I’ll give that some thought. >> >> It’s too steep and narrow but it’s not too far to the road which maybe I >> could just pull them with the nearby tractor and a long rope. >> >> thanks >> >> >> On Jul 17, 2025, at 1:38 PM, david quattro >> wrote: >> >> If it’s not too steep you can continually leapfrog two or 3 pieces of >> plywood, and roll your engine dolly on that. Or you can use a few cuts of >> large diameter pipe as rollers. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I was out at the job site today with the customer with the old SI 4548. >>> It’s going away, primarily because she wants a mini split and her >>> inverter is too small at this point. >>> >>> She has of course a abosolyte battery, 6 cells per stack. >>> I don’t know if they will slide out or not. >>> >>> But just thought I’d ask if anyone has any tricks. >>> Oh and no it’s in a side room, no way to get any heavy equipment in >>> there, and each stack is about 600# >>> >>> Maybe I could get an engine hoist in there, but outside the door is dirt >>> and gravel and its a long ways to where I can put the trailer. >>> I am anticipating having to remove the cells to deal with it. >>> Cutting it apart with a right angle grinder is about the only trick I >>> know. But I’m guessing there are others. >>> >>> Fortunately I can install the new equipment on the other wall so I don’t >>> need to get the batteries out quickly. >>> >>> thanks in advance >>> >>> jay >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > <20161129_115628.jpg> > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20250708_142437.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 250614 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 17:05:34 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 15:05:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] removing old abosolyte cells. In-Reply-To: References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> <043421BE-62EB-4E19-905D-57D5478B4689@gmail.com> <4679F499-5DEA-4661-AE2D-450756E1A7D2@gmail.com> <637A1872-0174-4DBD-95B2-976B04CD6ABD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AEA8189-DD09-4147-8EFF-8F1A0C59CD06@gmail.com> wow that is creative. Ok I’m more hopeful now. jay > On Jul 17, 2025, at 2:43 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > Jay, > > I just removed 72 cells last week, about 75lbs each. When the original installer installed these the room was wide open and they had use of heavy equipment. Then they installed a wall which provided about 3 foot of clearance. Fun times. Best thing to do is to make sure they haven't been charged for a few days as they will contract just enough. Also you'll want to make sure the temperature of the room is around 70 degrees or cooler as this will also help with the sliding them out. You may end up with a couple of stubborn ones and for that I came up with this rudimentary rig consisting of 2x4's to winch them out with a ratchet tie down. In the attached picture the rig is not attached to the wall. I needed just enough room to winch them out about 2/3rds of the way and then they came out. Did this with just two people. One person can easily lift them. Should be able to zoom in on the picture for details. If you need more info feel free to call me. > > Christopher > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 4:25 PM jay > wrote: >> Yes. >> >> Absolyte GP 90G18 >> 6 x 2v cells per stack >> 4 stacks >> weight is about 100# per cell, or roughly 700# per stack. >> >>> On Jul 17, 2025, at 2:22 PM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: >>> >>> Hey Jay, >>> >>> Does this look like what you are dealing with? >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 4:14 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> I’ll give that some thought. >>>> >>>> It’s too steep and narrow but it’s not too far to the road which maybe I could just pull them with the nearby tractor and a long rope. >>>> >>>> thanks >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jul 17, 2025, at 1:38 PM, david quattro > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> If it’s not too steep you can continually leapfrog two or 3 pieces of plywood, and roll your engine dolly on that. Or you can use a few cuts of large diameter pipe as rollers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> I was out at the job site today with the customer with the old SI 4548. >>>>>> It’s going away, primarily because she wants a mini split and her inverter is too small at this point. >>>>>> >>>>>> She has of course a abosolyte battery, 6 cells per stack. >>>>>> I don’t know if they will slide out or not. >>>>>> >>>>>> But just thought I’d ask if anyone has any tricks. >>>>>> Oh and no it’s in a side room, no way to get any heavy equipment in there, and each stack is about 600# >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe I could get an engine hoist in there, but outside the door is dirt and gravel and its a long ways to where I can put the trailer. >>>>>> I am anticipating having to remove the cells to deal with it. >>>>>> Cutting it apart with a right angle grinder is about the only trick I know. But I’m guessing there are others. >>>>>> >>>>>> Fortunately I can install the new equipment on the other wall so I don’t need to get the batteries out quickly. >>>>>> >>>>>> thanks in advance >>>>>> >>>>>> jay >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>> 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> <20161129_115628.jpg> >> > > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > <20250708_142437.jpg> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 17:05:34 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 15:05:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] removing old abosolyte cells. In-Reply-To: References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> <043421BE-62EB-4E19-905D-57D5478B4689@gmail.com> <4679F499-5DEA-4661-AE2D-450756E1A7D2@gmail.com> <637A1872-0174-4DBD-95B2-976B04CD6ABD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AEA8189-DD09-4147-8EFF-8F1A0C59CD06@gmail.com> wow that is creative. Ok I’m more hopeful now. jay > On Jul 17, 2025, at 2:43 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > Jay, > > I just removed 72 cells last week, about 75lbs each. When the original installer installed these the room was wide open and they had use of heavy equipment. Then they installed a wall which provided about 3 foot of clearance. Fun times. Best thing to do is to make sure they haven't been charged for a few days as they will contract just enough. Also you'll want to make sure the temperature of the room is around 70 degrees or cooler as this will also help with the sliding them out. You may end up with a couple of stubborn ones and for that I came up with this rudimentary rig consisting of 2x4's to winch them out with a ratchet tie down. In the attached picture the rig is not attached to the wall. I needed just enough room to winch them out about 2/3rds of the way and then they came out. Did this with just two people. One person can easily lift them. Should be able to zoom in on the picture for details. If you need more info feel free to call me. > > Christopher > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 4:25 PM jay > wrote: >> Yes. >> >> Absolyte GP 90G18 >> 6 x 2v cells per stack >> 4 stacks >> weight is about 100# per cell, or roughly 700# per stack. >> >>> On Jul 17, 2025, at 2:22 PM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: >>> >>> Hey Jay, >>> >>> Does this look like what you are dealing with? >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 4:14 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> I’ll give that some thought. >>>> >>>> It’s too steep and narrow but it’s not too far to the road which maybe I could just pull them with the nearby tractor and a long rope. >>>> >>>> thanks >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jul 17, 2025, at 1:38 PM, david quattro > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> If it’s not too steep you can continually leapfrog two or 3 pieces of plywood, and roll your engine dolly on that. Or you can use a few cuts of large diameter pipe as rollers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> I was out at the job site today with the customer with the old SI 4548. >>>>>> It’s going away, primarily because she wants a mini split and her inverter is too small at this point. >>>>>> >>>>>> She has of course a abosolyte battery, 6 cells per stack. >>>>>> I don’t know if they will slide out or not. >>>>>> >>>>>> But just thought I’d ask if anyone has any tricks. >>>>>> Oh and no it’s in a side room, no way to get any heavy equipment in there, and each stack is about 600# >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe I could get an engine hoist in there, but outside the door is dirt and gravel and its a long ways to where I can put the trailer. >>>>>> I am anticipating having to remove the cells to deal with it. >>>>>> Cutting it apart with a right angle grinder is about the only trick I know. But I’m guessing there are others. >>>>>> >>>>>> Fortunately I can install the new equipment on the other wall so I don’t need to get the batteries out quickly. >>>>>> >>>>>> thanks in advance >>>>>> >>>>>> jay >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>> 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> <20161129_115628.jpg> >> > > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > <20250708_142437.jpg> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 17:08:01 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 15:08:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] removing old abosolyte cells. In-Reply-To: References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> <043421BE-62EB-4E19-905D-57D5478B4689@gmail.com> <4679F499-5DEA-4661-AE2D-450756E1A7D2@gmail.com> <637A1872-0174-4DBD-95B2-976B04CD6ABD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8A1073ED-E08E-4B7D-A3F9-AE30C45E5F18@gmail.com> Hi James, I this case the cells on only 4 high so they are all low which is an advantage, not so far to drop! I think I can build a platform just out of wood etc that I can slide them out onto if they slide out. which thanks to Chris I think I can do it. cheers everyone jay > On Jul 17, 2025, at 2:38 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Somebody was kind to you that specified those cells. Use a "Big Joe" type manual forklift and bring the platform up to the battery height and slide the cells out. Once near the ground you can just hand carry them. > > Two people can wrestle those out, even from the top cells, but it is real work. I use to do about 10k lbs of those in a day before being too exhausted. We routinely do 18k lb Absolyte battery loads with four people carrying the batteries from the helicopter landing zone and into the building. Four people hustling it usually takes a bit over an hour. > > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:27 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Yes. >> >> Absolyte GP 90G18 >> 6 x 2v cells per stack >> 4 stacks >> weight is about 100# per cell, or roughly 700# per stack. >> >>> On Jul 17, 2025, at 2:22 PM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: >>> >>> Hey Jay, >>> >>> Does this look like what you are dealing with? >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 4:14 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> I’ll give that some thought. >>>> >>>> It’s too steep and narrow but it’s not too far to the road which maybe I could just pull them with the nearby tractor and a long rope. >>>> >>>> thanks >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jul 17, 2025, at 1:38 PM, david quattro > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> If it’s not too steep you can continually leapfrog two or 3 pieces of plywood, and roll your engine dolly on that. Or you can use a few cuts of large diameter pipe as rollers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> I was out at the job site today with the customer with the old SI 4548. >>>>>> It’s going away, primarily because she wants a mini split and her inverter is too small at this point. >>>>>> >>>>>> She has of course a abosolyte battery, 6 cells per stack. >>>>>> I don’t know if they will slide out or not. >>>>>> >>>>>> But just thought I’d ask if anyone has any tricks. >>>>>> Oh and no it’s in a side room, no way to get any heavy equipment in there, and each stack is about 600# >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe I could get an engine hoist in there, but outside the door is dirt and gravel and its a long ways to where I can put the trailer. >>>>>> I am anticipating having to remove the cells to deal with it. >>>>>> Cutting it apart with a right angle grinder is about the only trick I know. But I’m guessing there are others. >>>>>> >>>>>> Fortunately I can install the new equipment on the other wall so I don’t need to get the batteries out quickly. >>>>>> >>>>>> thanks in advance >>>>>> >>>>>> jay >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>> 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> <20161129_115628.jpg> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 17 17:50:21 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 21:50:21 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Paralleling two PF16 batteries on Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <838a3e6d-4786-c1c1-68e1-d0c2ab2fc139@floridasolardesigngroup.com> This is an interesting option. I think it goes against the manual, however, which could be flagged as a code violation. I also considered Polaris taps that are rated for fine-stranded wire. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 11:41 AM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches wrote: > I have done several systems where we just paralleled two batteries on the > battery terminals, just like we'd do with lead acid batteries, with a reverse > return for the home runs.  With the active balancing, the reverse return is > apparently not as important, but I still think it's best practice. > > > MidNite Power is working on a custom gutter/wiring box for coupling the PF16's > directly to the AIO, but not sure on timeline for it.  I've seen a few really > nice installs where someone used a standard 10" gutter with cutouts in it > directly on top of the PF16's, then set the AIO's on top of that.  No exposed > wiring or even conduit showing. > > > Zeke > -- > > Zeke Yewdall > PV Engineer > NABCEP #031508-89 > zeke at darkforestsolar.com [zeke at darkforestsolar.com] > 303-523-3592 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu Jul 17 18:19:00 2025 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 12:19:00 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Residential_credits=3A_buy_now=2C_instal?= =?utf-8?b?bCBsYXRlcuKApj8/Pz8/?= In-Reply-To: References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: That's my/our understanding as well, Kirk. What's still unclear to me is whether any unused tax credit $$ accrued in 2025 can be rolled forward as was possible in previous years. Any opinions out there on this? Mahalo, marco On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 10:08 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Residential tax credit: > > > https://pv-magazine-usa.us13.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2790e780a1533f4bc05c8679a&id= > > > Apparently, the bills wording allows a full purchase or procurement of a > residential system to be eligible for the tax credits if purchased before > they expire at the end of 2025. Systems do not need to be installed before > the end of the year. > > If accurate, no “placed in service” 2025 deadline. > > “With respect to the Jan 2026 end of Section 25D(residential tax credit), > experts agree that the determination of whether a homeowner qualifies has > shifted from the previous “placed in service” test to the bill’s new > “expenditures made” test.” > > “If the homeowner pays for the installation in 2025, they could lock in > the credit, even if the system is placed in service later,” said Bryen > Alperin, Partner & Managing Director at Foss & Company." > > > > > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 11:04 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> This might be related to the technical correction to wording of 48E on >> percentages of domestic content?? >> >> >> >> - Correction to Domestic Content Percentages Under 48E: The domestic >> content applicable percentage under 48E for qualified facilities and energy >> storage technology would be revised to match current 45Y as follows: >> - 40% (or 20% for offshore wind) if construction begins before >> June 16, 2025; >> - 45% (or 27.5% for offshore wind) if construction begins after >> June 16, 2025, and before Jan. 1, 2026; >> - 50% (or 35% for offshore wind) if construction begins during >> 2026; and >> - 55% if construction begins after Dec. 31, 2026. >> >> >> >> >> >> This content percentage wont matter to residential system owners – 25D >> still goes away at EOY, no domestic content requirements... >> >> Only folks leasing systems can get the credit, THEN domestic content >> matters. PV Magazine has good summary article. >> >> >> https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/07/10/what-the-budget-bill-means-for-energy-storage-tax-credit-eligibility/ >> >> >> >> Wannabe residential battery owners will likely feel the most immediate >> impact of the OBBB. >> >> Updates to the 25D residential solar tax credit, which covers solar >> panels, solar water heaters and related property like home battery storage >> systems, have significantly shortened the timeline for homeowners to access >> the credit. >> >> Now, home batteries will only qualify for the 30% tax credit if they’re >> purchased and installed by the end of the year before the credit phases out >> entirely. >> >> There is a bright spot: residential systems leased from third parties >> will remain eligible for tax credits beyond 2025, as they rely on 48E >> instead of 25D. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Michael Mahon* (he/him) >> Solar Academy Manager | SMA America >> >> +1 916 918 9412 >> SMA America | Solar Academy >> | TechTip Channel >> >> | Upcoming Academy Trainings >> >> >> >> >> >> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC >> confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the >> intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or >> any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not >> the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and >> permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any >> attachments thereto. Thank you. >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 17, 2025 8:11 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* scot.arey at solarcentex.com >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Is there a domestic content reqt for batteries >> effective now? For Residential? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I consider myself mostly pretty aware of policy issues that effect >> business but this paragraph in a Seeking Alpha investment article caught my >> eye. Is there a new domestic content reqt for batteries in residential >> installations? >> >> >> >> "The higher domestic content batteries comply with the new requirement in >> the U.S. federal budget law, which retroactively enforces a 45% >> U.S.-sourced materials threshold for solar and battery products starting >> June 16, 2025." >> https://seekingalpha.com/news/4468352-enphase-energy-begins-shipments-of-iq-battery-5p-with-higher-domestic-content#source=first_level_url%3Aportfolio%7Ccontent_type%3Aall%7Csection%3Aportfolio_content_unit%7Csection_asset%3Alatest%7Cline%3A1 >> >> >> >> >> Enphase Energy begins shipments of IQ Battery 5P with higher domestic >> content - Seeking Alpha >> >> >> Discover Enphase Energy's new IQ Battery 5P with increased U.S.-sourced >> materials, complying with updated federal standards. >> >> seekingalpha.com >> >> >> >> Wanting to make sure I'm not setting up this years customers for issues >> getting the 30% Federal tax credit/ >> >> >> >> >> >> *Howard "Scot" Arey* >> >> *Owner, Solar CenTex* >> >> >> >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> >> TECL 29755 >> >> 254-300-1228 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 68542 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Thu Jul 17 18:30:51 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 12:30:51 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Residential_credits=3A_buy_now=2C_instal?= =?utf-8?b?bCBsYXRlcuKApj8/Pz8/?= In-Reply-To: References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: But who wants to take all that income with no expenses for 2025? I might do it for a handful but not too many. The accrual detail is crucial. Time to call the CPA! Aloha, Lou Russo Spree Solar Systems LLC C-34322 On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 12:20 PM Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That's my/our understanding as well, Kirk. > > What's still unclear to me is whether any unused tax credit $$ accrued in > 2025 can be rolled forward as was possible in previous years. > > Any opinions out there on this? > > Mahalo, > marco > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 10:08 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> >> Residential tax credit: >> >> >> https://pv-magazine-usa.us13.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2790e780a1533f4bc05c8679a&id= >> >> >> Apparently, the bills wording allows a full purchase or procurement of a >> residential system to be eligible for the tax credits if purchased before >> they expire at the end of 2025. Systems do not need to be installed before >> the end of the year. >> >> If accurate, no “placed in service” 2025 deadline. >> >> “With respect to the Jan 2026 end of Section 25D(residential tax credit), >> experts agree that the determination of whether a homeowner qualifies has >> shifted from the previous “placed in service” test to the bill’s new >> “expenditures made” test.” >> >> “If the homeowner pays for the installation in 2025, they could lock in >> the credit, even if the system is placed in service later,” said Bryen >> Alperin, Partner & Managing Director at Foss & Company." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 11:04 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> This might be related to the technical correction to wording of 48E on >>> percentages of domestic content?? >>> >>> >>> >>> - Correction to Domestic Content Percentages Under 48E: The domestic >>> content applicable percentage under 48E for qualified facilities and energy >>> storage technology would be revised to match current 45Y as follows: >>> - 40% (or 20% for offshore wind) if construction begins before >>> June 16, 2025; >>> - 45% (or 27.5% for offshore wind) if construction begins after >>> June 16, 2025, and before Jan. 1, 2026; >>> - 50% (or 35% for offshore wind) if construction begins during >>> 2026; and >>> - 55% if construction begins after Dec. 31, 2026. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This content percentage wont matter to residential system owners – 25D >>> still goes away at EOY, no domestic content requirements... >>> >>> Only folks leasing systems can get the credit, THEN domestic content >>> matters. PV Magazine has good summary article. >>> >>> >>> https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/07/10/what-the-budget-bill-means-for-energy-storage-tax-credit-eligibility/ >>> >>> >>> >>> Wannabe residential battery owners will likely feel the most immediate >>> impact of the OBBB. >>> >>> Updates to the 25D residential solar tax credit, which covers solar >>> panels, solar water heaters and related property like home battery storage >>> systems, have significantly shortened the timeline for homeowners to access >>> the credit. >>> >>> Now, home batteries will only qualify for the 30% tax credit if they’re >>> purchased and installed by the end of the year before the credit phases out >>> entirely. >>> >>> There is a bright spot: residential systems leased from third parties >>> will remain eligible for tax credits beyond 2025, as they rely on 48E >>> instead of 25D. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Michael Mahon* (he/him) >>> Solar Academy Manager | SMA America >>> >>> +1 916 918 9412 >>> SMA America | Solar Academy >>> | TechTip Channel >>> >>> | Upcoming Academy Trainings >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC >>> confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the >>> intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or >>> any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not >>> the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and >>> permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any >>> attachments thereto. Thank you. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>> Behalf Of *scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 17, 2025 8:11 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* scot.arey at solarcentex.com >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Is there a domestic content reqt for batteries >>> effective now? For Residential? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I consider myself mostly pretty aware of policy issues that effect >>> business but this paragraph in a Seeking Alpha investment article caught my >>> eye. Is there a new domestic content reqt for batteries in residential >>> installations? >>> >>> >>> >>> "The higher domestic content batteries comply with the new requirement >>> in the U.S. federal budget law, which retroactively enforces a 45% >>> U.S.-sourced materials threshold for solar and battery products starting >>> June 16, 2025." >>> https://seekingalpha.com/news/4468352-enphase-energy-begins-shipments-of-iq-battery-5p-with-higher-domestic-content#source=first_level_url%3Aportfolio%7Ccontent_type%3Aall%7Csection%3Aportfolio_content_unit%7Csection_asset%3Alatest%7Cline%3A1 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Enphase Energy begins shipments of IQ Battery 5P with higher domestic >>> content - Seeking Alpha >>> >>> >>> Discover Enphase Energy's new IQ Battery 5P with increased U.S.-sourced >>> materials, complying with updated federal standards. >>> >>> seekingalpha.com >>> >>> >>> >>> Wanting to make sure I'm not setting up this years customers for issues >>> getting the 30% Federal tax credit/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Howard "Scot" Arey* >>> >>> *Owner, Solar CenTex* >>> >>> >>> >>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >>> >>> TECL 29755 >>> >>> 254-300-1228 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 68542 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Jul 17 18:56:56 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 18:56:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Residential_credits=3A_buy_now=2C_instal?= =?utf-8?b?bCBsYXRlcuKApj8/Pz8/?= In-Reply-To: References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: IMO it helps keep those heavily dependent on residential installs busy (aka alive) beyond 2025, and also somewhat avoids the possible overwhelming rush to finish 2025 installs before the end of the year. On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 6:33 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > But who wants to take all that income with no expenses for 2025? I might > do it for a handful but not too many. > The accrual detail is crucial. > Time to call the CPA! > > Aloha, > Lou Russo > Spree Solar Systems LLC > C-34322 > > > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 12:20 PM Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> That's my/our understanding as well, Kirk. >> >> What's still unclear to me is whether any unused tax credit $$ accrued in >> 2025 can be rolled forward as was possible in previous years. >> >> Any opinions out there on this? >> >> Mahalo, >> marco >> >> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 10:08 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> Residential tax credit: >>> >>> >>> https://pv-magazine-usa.us13.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2790e780a1533f4bc05c8679a&id= >>> >>> >>> Apparently, the bills wording allows a full purchase or procurement of a >>> residential system to be eligible for the tax credits if purchased before >>> they expire at the end of 2025. Systems do not need to be installed before >>> the end of the year. >>> >>> If accurate, no “placed in service” 2025 deadline. >>> >>> “With respect to the Jan 2026 end of Section 25D(residential tax >>> credit), experts agree that the determination of whether a homeowner >>> qualifies has shifted from the previous “placed in service” test to the >>> bill’s new “expenditures made” test.” >>> >>> “If the homeowner pays for the installation in 2025, they could lock in >>> the credit, even if the system is placed in service later,” said Bryen >>> Alperin, Partner & Managing Director at Foss & Company." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>> >>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>> >>> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >>> >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> >>> 802.559.1225 >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 11:04 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> This might be related to the technical correction to wording of 48E on >>>> percentages of domestic content?? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - Correction to Domestic Content Percentages Under 48E: The >>>> domestic content applicable percentage under 48E for qualified facilities >>>> and energy storage technology would be revised to match current 45Y as >>>> follows: >>>> - 40% (or 20% for offshore wind) if construction begins before >>>> June 16, 2025; >>>> - 45% (or 27.5% for offshore wind) if construction begins after >>>> June 16, 2025, and before Jan. 1, 2026; >>>> - 50% (or 35% for offshore wind) if construction begins during >>>> 2026; and >>>> - 55% if construction begins after Dec. 31, 2026. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This content percentage wont matter to residential system owners – 25D >>>> still goes away at EOY, no domestic content requirements... >>>> >>>> Only folks leasing systems can get the credit, THEN domestic content >>>> matters. PV Magazine has good summary article. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/07/10/what-the-budget-bill-means-for-energy-storage-tax-credit-eligibility/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Wannabe residential battery owners will likely feel the most immediate >>>> impact of the OBBB. >>>> >>>> Updates to the 25D residential solar tax credit, which covers solar >>>> panels, solar water heaters and related property like home battery storage >>>> systems, have significantly shortened the timeline for homeowners to access >>>> the credit. >>>> >>>> Now, home batteries will only qualify for the 30% tax credit if they’re >>>> purchased and installed by the end of the year before the credit phases out >>>> entirely. >>>> >>>> There is a bright spot: residential systems leased from third parties >>>> will remain eligible for tax credits beyond 2025, as they rely on 48E >>>> instead of 25D. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Michael Mahon* (he/him) >>>> Solar Academy Manager | SMA America >>>> >>>> +1 916 918 9412 >>>> SMA America | Solar Academy >>>> | TechTip Channel >>>> >>>> | Upcoming Academy Trainings >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC >>>> confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the >>>> intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or >>>> any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not >>>> the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and >>>> permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any >>>> attachments thereto. Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>> Behalf Of *scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 17, 2025 8:11 AM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* scot.arey at solarcentex.com >>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Is there a domestic content reqt for >>>> batteries effective now? For Residential? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I consider myself mostly pretty aware of policy issues that effect >>>> business but this paragraph in a Seeking Alpha investment article caught my >>>> eye. Is there a new domestic content reqt for batteries in residential >>>> installations? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "The higher domestic content batteries comply with the new requirement >>>> in the U.S. federal budget law, which retroactively enforces a 45% >>>> U.S.-sourced materials threshold for solar and battery products starting >>>> June 16, 2025." >>>> https://seekingalpha.com/news/4468352-enphase-energy-begins-shipments-of-iq-battery-5p-with-higher-domestic-content#source=first_level_url%3Aportfolio%7Ccontent_type%3Aall%7Csection%3Aportfolio_content_unit%7Csection_asset%3Alatest%7Cline%3A1 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Enphase Energy begins shipments of IQ Battery 5P with higher domestic >>>> content - Seeking Alpha >>>> >>>> >>>> Discover Enphase Energy's new IQ Battery 5P with increased U.S.-sourced >>>> materials, complying with updated federal standards. >>>> >>>> seekingalpha.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Wanting to make sure I'm not setting up this years customers for issues >>>> getting the 30% Federal tax credit/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Howard "Scot" Arey* >>>> >>>> *Owner, Solar CenTex* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >>>> >>>> TECL 29755 >>>> >>>> 254-300-1228 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 68542 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jul 17 19:10:08 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 17:10:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Paralleling two PF16 batteries on Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: <838a3e6d-4786-c1c1-68e1-d0c2ab2fc139@floridasolardesigngroup.com> References: <838a3e6d-4786-c1c1-68e1-d0c2ab2fc139@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: <4211a0da-f3ee-4783-99bb-773ae0bdc592@solarray.com> I was told specifically by Midnite Tech support that the AIO was designed for parallel conductors. There isn't anything in the manual that contradicts that, that I'm aware of.  I have never considered 2 lugs on a single bolt a violation. Its when two conductors go into a single lug that is not designed for 2 conductors, that it's considered double lugging.  If 2 lugs on one bolt were not legal, how in the world would you ever wire L16s, golf cart batteries, etc. in parallel? Ray Walters Remote Solar On 7/17/2025 3:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > This is an interesting option. I think it goes against the manual, > however, which could be flagged as a code violation. > > I also considered Polaris taps that are rated for fine-stranded wire. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 11:41 AM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > > I have done several systems where we just paralleled two > batteries on the battery terminals, just like we'd do with lead > acid batteries, with a reverse return for the home runs.  With the > active balancing, the reverse return is apparently not as > important, but I still think it's best practice. > > MidNite Power is working on a custom gutter/wiring box for > coupling the PF16's directly to the AIO, but not sure on timeline > for it.  I've seen a few really nice installs where someone used a > standard 10" gutter with cutouts in it directly on top of the > PF16's, then set the AIO's on top of that.  No exposed wiring or > even conduit showing. > > Zeke > -- > Zeke Yewdall > PV Engineer > NABCEP #031508-89 > zeke at darkforestsolar.com > 303-523-3592 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 19:39:49 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 19:39:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Residential_credits=3A_buy_now=2C_instal?= =?utf-8?b?bCBsYXRlcuKApj8/Pz8/?= In-Reply-To: References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: If this is accurate, that will make a big difference. I'm getting overwhelmed with requests for systems. Howie On Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 4:08 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Residential tax credit: > > > https://pv-magazine-usa.us13.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2790e780a1533f4bc05c8679a&id= > > > Apparently, the bills wording allows a full purchase or procurement of a > residential system to be eligible for the tax credits if purchased before > they expire at the end of 2025. Systems do not need to be installed before > the end of the year. > > If accurate, no “placed in service” 2025 deadline. > > “With respect to the Jan 2026 end of Section 25D(residential tax credit), > experts agree that the determination of whether a homeowner qualifies has > shifted from the previous “placed in service” test to the bill’s new > “expenditures made” test.” > > “If the homeowner pays for the installation in 2025, they could lock in > the credit, even if the system is placed in service later,” said Bryen > Alperin, Partner & Managing Director at Foss & Company." > > > > > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 11:04 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> This might be related to the technical correction to wording of 48E on >> percentages of domestic content?? >> >> >> >> - Correction to Domestic Content Percentages Under 48E: The domestic >> content applicable percentage under 48E for qualified facilities and energy >> storage technology would be revised to match current 45Y as follows: >> - 40% (or 20% for offshore wind) if construction begins before >> June 16, 2025; >> - 45% (or 27.5% for offshore wind) if construction begins after >> June 16, 2025, and before Jan. 1, 2026; >> - 50% (or 35% for offshore wind) if construction begins during >> 2026; and >> - 55% if construction begins after Dec. 31, 2026. >> >> >> >> >> >> This content percentage wont matter to residential system owners – 25D >> still goes away at EOY, no domestic content requirements... >> >> Only folks leasing systems can get the credit, THEN domestic content >> matters. PV Magazine has good summary article. >> >> >> https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/07/10/what-the-budget-bill-means-for-energy-storage-tax-credit-eligibility/ >> >> >> >> Wannabe residential battery owners will likely feel the most immediate >> impact of the OBBB. >> >> Updates to the 25D residential solar tax credit, which covers solar >> panels, solar water heaters and related property like home battery storage >> systems, have significantly shortened the timeline for homeowners to access >> the credit. >> >> Now, home batteries will only qualify for the 30% tax credit if they’re >> purchased and installed by the end of the year before the credit phases out >> entirely. >> >> There is a bright spot: residential systems leased from third parties >> will remain eligible for tax credits beyond 2025, as they rely on 48E >> instead of 25D. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Michael Mahon* (he/him) >> Solar Academy Manager | SMA America >> >> +1 916 918 9412 >> SMA America | Solar Academy >> | TechTip Channel >> >> | Upcoming Academy Trainings >> >> >> >> >> >> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC >> confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the >> intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or >> any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not >> the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and >> permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any >> attachments thereto. Thank you. >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 17, 2025 8:11 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* scot.arey at solarcentex.com >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Is there a domestic content reqt for batteries >> effective now? For Residential? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I consider myself mostly pretty aware of policy issues that effect >> business but this paragraph in a Seeking Alpha investment article caught my >> eye. Is there a new domestic content reqt for batteries in residential >> installations? >> >> >> >> "The higher domestic content batteries comply with the new requirement in >> the U.S. federal budget law, which retroactively enforces a 45% >> U.S.-sourced materials threshold for solar and battery products starting >> June 16, 2025." >> https://seekingalpha.com/news/4468352-enphase-energy-begins-shipments-of-iq-battery-5p-with-higher-domestic-content#source=first_level_url%3Aportfolio%7Ccontent_type%3Aall%7Csection%3Aportfolio_content_unit%7Csection_asset%3Alatest%7Cline%3A1 >> >> >> >> >> Enphase Energy begins shipments of IQ Battery 5P with higher domestic >> content - Seeking Alpha >> >> >> Discover Enphase Energy's new IQ Battery 5P with increased U.S.-sourced >> materials, complying with updated federal standards. >> >> seekingalpha.com >> >> >> >> Wanting to make sure I'm not setting up this years customers for issues >> getting the 30% Federal tax credit/ >> >> >> >> >> >> *Howard "Scot" Arey* >> >> *Owner, Solar CenTex* >> >> >> >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> >> TECL 29755 >> >> 254-300-1228 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 68542 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 21:16:24 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 19:16:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] removing old abosolyte cells. In-Reply-To: <8A1073ED-E08E-4B7D-A3F9-AE30C45E5F18@gmail.com> References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> <043421BE-62EB-4E19-905D-57D5478B4689@gmail.com> <4679F499-5DEA-4661-AE2D-450756E1A7D2@gmail.com> <637A1872-0174-4DBD-95B2-976B04CD6ABD@gmail.com> <8A1073ED-E08E-4B7D-A3F9-AE30C45E5F18@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Depending what the floor path looks like, I've used a very narrow pallet jack to move full stacks quite easily, or perhaps rotate to a better angle. That may allow you to get them somewhere where you can snatch them with heavy equipment. I have used the narrow pallet jack all over the place, super helpful. Good Luck! Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* On Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 3:09 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi James, > > I this case the cells on only 4 high so they are all low which is an > advantage, not so far to drop! > > I think I can build a platform just out of wood etc that I can slide them > out onto if they slide out. > which thanks to Chris I think I can do it. > > cheers everyone > > jay > > > > On Jul 17, 2025, at 2:38 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Somebody was kind to you that specified those cells. Use a "Big Joe" type > manual forklift and bring the platform up to the battery height and slide > the cells out. Once near the ground you can just hand carry them. > > Two people can wrestle those out, even from the top cells, but it is real > work. I use to do about 10k lbs of those in a day before being too > exhausted. We routinely do 18k lb Absolyte battery loads with four people > carrying the batteries from the helicopter landing zone and into the > building. Four people hustling it usually takes a bit over an hour. > > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:27 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Yes. >> >> Absolyte GP 90G18 >> 6 x 2v cells per stack >> 4 stacks >> weight is about 100# per cell, or roughly 700# per stack. >> >> On Jul 17, 2025, at 2:22 PM, Chris Schaefer >> wrote: >> >> Hey Jay, >> >> Does this look like what you are dealing with? >> >> Christopher >> >> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 4:14 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I’ll give that some thought. >>> >>> It’s too steep and narrow but it’s not too far to the road which maybe I >>> could just pull them with the nearby tractor and a long rope. >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> >>> On Jul 17, 2025, at 1:38 PM, david quattro >>> wrote: >>> >>> If it’s not too steep you can continually leapfrog two or 3 pieces of >>> plywood, and roll your engine dolly on that. Or you can use a few cuts of >>> large diameter pipe as rollers. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I was out at the job site today with the customer with the old SI >>>> 4548. >>>> It’s going away, primarily because she wants a mini split and her >>>> inverter is too small at this point. >>>> >>>> She has of course a abosolyte battery, 6 cells per stack. >>>> I don’t know if they will slide out or not. >>>> >>>> But just thought I’d ask if anyone has any tricks. >>>> Oh and no it’s in a side room, no way to get any heavy equipment in >>>> there, and each stack is about 600# >>>> >>>> Maybe I could get an engine hoist in there, but outside the door is >>>> dirt and gravel and its a long ways to where I can put the trailer. >>>> I am anticipating having to remove the cells to deal with it. >>>> Cutting it apart with a right angle grinder is about the only trick I >>>> know. But I’m guessing there are others. >>>> >>>> Fortunately I can install the new equipment on the other wall so I >>>> don’t need to get the batteries out quickly. >>>> >>>> thanks in advance >>>> >>>> jay >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> **www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> <20161129_115628.jpg> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 22:08:54 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 22:08:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Paralleling two PF16 batteries on Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've used a 10x10x24" gutter directly under AIOs and then an 18x18x4" jbox for combining (3) PF16s with a victron combiner. Takes a fair amount of real estate but allows for easy addition of batteries. Putting a gutter on top of pf16s and an AIO onto of that sounds very clean but it would push the screen pretty high and wouldn't fit in many basements. Howie On Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 11:41 AM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have done several systems where we just paralleled two batteries on the > battery terminals, just like we'd do with lead acid batteries, with a > reverse return for the home runs. With the active balancing, the reverse > return is apparently not as important, but I still think it's best practice. > > MidNite Power is working on a custom gutter/wiring box for coupling the > PF16's directly to the AIO, but not sure on timeline for it. I've seen a > few really nice installs where someone used a standard 10" gutter with > cutouts in it directly on top of the PF16's, then set the AIO's on top of > that. No exposed wiring or even conduit showing. > > Zeke > -- > Zeke Yewdall > PV Engineer > NABCEP #031508-89 > zeke at darkforestsolar.com > 303-523-3592 > ______________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jul 18 08:00:39 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 08:00:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Paralleling two PF16 batteries on Midnite AIO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The height issue is exactly what I want to avoid. If the batteries can be combined in the battery wiring compartments themselves, or combined at the inverter input terminals, that solves the problem. But the manual specifically calls out a "combine box" between the batteries and inverter. Can that combiner box be a battery compartment or inverter cabinet? I guess that is open to interpretation. Functionally, I don't see an issue doing that. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 10:10 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I've used a 10x10x24" gutter directly under AIOs and then an 18x18x4" jbox > for combining (3) PF16s with a victron combiner. Takes a fair amount of > real estate but allows for easy addition of batteries. Putting a gutter on > top of pf16s and an AIO onto of that sounds very clean but it would push > the screen pretty high and wouldn't fit in many basements. > Howie > > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 11:41 AM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I have done several systems where we just paralleled two batteries on the >> battery terminals, just like we'd do with lead acid batteries, with a >> reverse return for the home runs. With the active balancing, the reverse >> return is apparently not as important, but I still think it's best practice. >> >> MidNite Power is working on a custom gutter/wiring box for coupling the >> PF16's directly to the AIO, but not sure on timeline for it. I've seen a >> few really nice installs where someone used a standard 10" gutter with >> cutouts in it directly on top of the PF16's, then set the AIO's on top of >> that. No exposed wiring or even conduit showing. >> >> Zeke >> -- >> Zeke Yewdall >> PV Engineer >> NABCEP #031508-89 >> zeke at darkforestsolar.com >> 303-523-3592 >> ______________________________ >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:13:07 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 08:13:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] removing old abosolyte cells. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 11:25:40 2025 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 11:25:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Residential_credits=3A_buy_now=2C_instal?= =?utf-8?b?bCBsYXRlcuKApj8/Pz8/?= In-Reply-To: References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: <74C15E2E-ED4F-4ED3-9518-B7547D3F6D6E@gmail.com> If this is the case, when would the system need to be installed by??? There must be a deadline…? Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook > On Jul 17, 2025, at 7:39 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > If this is accurate, that will make a big difference. I'm getting overwhelmed with requests for systems. > > Howie > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 4:08 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Residential tax credit: > > https://pv-magazine-usa.us13.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2790e780a1533f4bc05c8679a&id= > > Apparently, the bills wording allows a full purchase or procurement of a residential system to be eligible for the tax credits if purchased before they expire at the end of 2025. Systems do not need to be installed before the end of the year. > > If accurate, no “placed in service” 2025 deadline. > > “With respect to the Jan 2026 end of Section 25D(residential tax credit), experts agree that the determination of whether a homeowner qualifies has shifted from the previous “placed in service” test to the bill’s new “expenditures made” test.” > > “If the homeowner pays for the installation in 2025, they could lock in the credit, even if the system is placed in service later,” said Bryen Alperin, Partner & Managing Director at Foss & Company." > > > > > > > > > <> > Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh at vermont.solar > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!! > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.559.1225 > > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 11:04 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches > wrote: > This might be related to the technical correction to wording of 48E on percentages of domestic content?? > > > > Correction to Domestic Content Percentages Under 48E: The domestic content applicable percentage under 48E for qualified facilities and energy storage technology would be revised to match current 45Y as follows: > 40% (or 20% for offshore wind) if construction begins before June 16, 2025; > 45% (or 27.5% for offshore wind) if construction begins after June 16, 2025, and before Jan. 1, 2026; > 50% (or 35% for offshore wind) if construction begins during 2026; and > 55% if construction begins after Dec. 31, 2026. > > > > > This content percentage wont matter to residential system owners – 25D still goes away at EOY, no domestic content requirements... > > Only folks leasing systems can get the credit, THEN domestic content matters. PV Magazine has good summary article. > > https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/07/10/what-the-budget-bill-means-for-energy-storage-tax-credit-eligibility/ > > > Wannabe residential battery owners will likely feel the most immediate impact of the OBBB. > > Updates to the 25D residential solar tax credit, which covers solar panels, solar water heaters and related property like home battery storage systems, have significantly shortened the timeline for homeowners to access the credit. > > Now, home batteries will only qualify for the 30% tax credit if they’re purchased and installed by the end of the year before the credit phases out entirely. > > There is a bright spot: residential systems leased from third parties will remain eligible for tax credits beyond 2025, as they rely on 48E instead of 25D. > > > > > > > > > > > Michael Mahon (he/him) > Solar Academy Manager | SMA America > > +1 916 918 9412 > SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2025 8:11 AM > To: RE-wrenches > > Cc: scot.arey at solarcentex.com > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is there a domestic content reqt for batteries effective now? For Residential? > > > > > > > > I consider myself mostly pretty aware of policy issues that effect business but this paragraph in a Seeking Alpha investment article caught my eye. Is there a new domestic content reqt for batteries in residential installations? > > > > "The higher domestic content batteries comply with the new requirement in the U.S. federal budget law, which retroactively enforces a 45% U.S.-sourced materials threshold for solar and battery products starting June 16, 2025." https://seekingalpha.com/news/4468352-enphase-energy-begins-shipments-of-iq-battery-5p-with-higher-domestic-content#source=first_level_url%3Aportfolio%7Ccontent_type%3Aall%7Csection%3Aportfolio_content_unit%7Csection_asset%3Alatest%7Cline%3A1 > > Enphase Energy begins shipments of IQ Battery 5P with higher domestic content - Seeking Alpha > Discover Enphase Energy's new IQ Battery 5P with increased U.S.-sourced materials, complying with updated federal standards. > > seekingalpha.com > > > Wanting to make sure I'm not setting up this years customers for issues getting the 30% Federal tax credit/ > > > > > > Howard "Scot" Arey > > Owner, Solar CenTex > > > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > TECL 29755 > > 254-300-1228 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Jul 18 11:42:31 2025 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 15:42:31 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Residential_credits=3A_buy_now=2C_instal?= =?utf-8?b?bCBsYXRlcuKApj8/Pz8/?= In-Reply-To: <74C15E2E-ED4F-4ED3-9518-B7547D3F6D6E@gmail.com> References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> <74C15E2E-ED4F-4ED3-9518-B7547D3F6D6E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately I think the actual language of 25D defines expenditure differently than an exchange of money, and would imagine it will be enforced by this administration... From https://www.solarinsure.com/final-changes-to-solar-tax-credit-from-h-r-1 and quoted is directly from language of 25D (I think the callout from 25D is actually (e)(8)(A) ): An interesting note with the amendment is the language “with expenditures made after December 31st”. Some have postulated that the change in language here could mean that homeowners could take the credit if they simply paid for the system before the end of 2025. This is clarified in 26 USC 25D(8)(A): “Except as provided in subparagraph (B), an expenditure with respect to an item shall be treated as made when the original installation of the item is completed.“ Unfortunately for homeowners, this means that the system does need to be fully installed by the end of 2025 in order to still claim the credit. ---------- Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America +1 916 918 9412 SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings [cid:image001.jpg at 01DBF7C7.984CE390] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Amos Post via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, July 18, 2025 9:26 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Amos Post Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential credits: buy now, install later…????? If this is the case, when would the system need to be installed by??? There must be a deadline…? [cid:image002.jpg at 01DBF7C7.984CE390] Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook On Jul 17, 2025, at 7:39 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: If this is accurate, that will make a big difference. I'm getting overwhelmed with requests for systems. Howie On Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 4:08 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: Residential tax credit: https://pv-magazine-usa.us13.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2790e780a1533f4bc05c8679a&id= Apparently, the bills wording allows a full purchase or procurement of a residential system to be eligible for the tax credits if purchased before they expire at the end of 2025. Systems do not need to be installed before the end of the year. If accurate, no “placed in service” 2025 deadline. “With respect to the Jan 2026 end of Section 25D(residential tax credit), experts agree that the determination of whether a homeowner qualifies has shifted from the previous “placed in service” test to the bill’s new “expenditures made” test.” “If the homeowner pays for the installation in 2025, they could lock in the credit, even if the system is placed in service later,” said Bryen Alperin, Partner & Managing Director at Foss & Company." Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 11:04 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches > wrote: This might be related to the technical correction to wording of 48E on percentages of domestic content?? * Correction to Domestic Content Percentages Under 48E: The domestic content applicable percentage under 48E for qualified facilities and energy storage technology would be revised to match current 45Y as follows: * 40% (or 20% for offshore wind) if construction begins before June 16, 2025; * 45% (or 27.5% for offshore wind) if construction begins after June 16, 2025, and before Jan. 1, 2026; * 50% (or 35% for offshore wind) if construction begins during 2026; and * 55% if construction begins after Dec. 31, 2026. This content percentage wont matter to residential system owners – 25D still goes away at EOY, no domestic content requirements... Only folks leasing systems can get the credit, THEN domestic content matters. PV Magazine has good summary article. https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/07/10/what-the-budget-bill-means-for-energy-storage-tax-credit-eligibility/ Wannabe residential battery owners will likely feel the most immediate impact of the OBBB. Updates to the 25D residential solar tax credit, which covers solar panels, solar water heaters and related property like home battery storage systems, have significantly shortened the timeline for homeowners to access the credit. Now, home batteries will only qualify for the 30% tax credit if they’re purchased and installed by the end of the year before the credit phases out entirely. There is a bright spot: residential systems leased from third parties will remain eligible for tax credits beyond 2025, as they rely on 48E instead of 25D. Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America +1 916 918 9412 SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2025 8:11 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: scot.arey at solarcentex.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is there a domestic content reqt for batteries effective now? For Residential? I consider myself mostly pretty aware of policy issues that effect business but this paragraph in a Seeking Alpha investment article caught my eye. Is there a new domestic content reqt for batteries in residential installations? "The higher domestic content batteries comply with the new requirement in the U.S. federal budget law, which retroactively enforces a 45% U.S.-sourced materials threshold for solar and battery products starting June 16, 2025." https://seekingalpha.com/news/4468352-enphase-energy-begins-shipments-of-iq-battery-5p-with-higher-domestic-content#source=first_level_url%3Aportfolio%7Ccontent_type%3Aall%7Csection%3Aportfolio_content_unit%7Csection_asset%3Alatest%7Cline%3A1 Enphase Energy begins shipments of IQ Battery 5P with higher domestic content - Seeking Alpha Discover Enphase Energy's new IQ Battery 5P with increased U.S.-sourced materials, complying with updated federal standards. seekingalpha.com Wanting to make sure I'm not setting up this years customers for issues getting the 30% Federal tax credit/ Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 68542 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Jul 18 13:25:34 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 13:25:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Residential_credits=3A_buy_now=2C_instal?= =?utf-8?b?bCBsYXRlcuKApj8/Pz8/?= In-Reply-To: References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> <74C15E2E-ED4F-4ED3-9518-B7547D3F6D6E@gmail.com> Message-ID: So what is the text of subparagraph (B)?? Obviously there is a difference of opinion amongst expert interpreters. On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 11:43 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Unfortunately I think the actual language of 25D defines expenditure > differently than an exchange of money, and would imagine it will be > enforced by this administration... > > > > From > https://www.solarinsure.com/final-changes-to-solar-tax-credit-from-h-r-1 > and quoted is directly from language of 25D (I think the callout from 25D > is actually (e)(8)(A) ): > > > > An interesting note with the amendment is the language “with expenditures > made after December 31st”. Some have postulated that the change in language > here could mean that homeowners could take the credit if they simply paid > for the system before the end of 2025. This is clarified in 26 USC > 25D(8)(A) > > : > > > > *“Except as provided in subparagraph (B), an expenditure with respect to > an item shall be treated as made when the original installation of the item > is completed.“* > > > > Unfortunately for homeowners, this means that the system does need to be > fully installed by the end of 2025 in order to still claim the credit. > > > > ---------- > > > *Michael Mahon* (he/him) > Solar Academy Manager | SMA America > > +1 916 918 9412 > SMA America | Solar Academy > | TechTip Channel > > | Upcoming Academy Trainings > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or > any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Amos Post via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2025 9:26 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Amos Post > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential credits: buy now, install > later…????? > > > > If this is the case, when would the system need to be installed by??? > There must be a deadline…? > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > > Facebook > > > > On Jul 17, 2025, at 7:39 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > If this is accurate, that will make a big difference. I'm getting > overwhelmed with requests for systems. > > > > Howie > > > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 4:08 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > Residential tax credit: > > > > > https://pv-magazine-usa.us13.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2790e780a1533f4bc05c8679a&id= > > > > > Apparently, the bills wording allows a full purchase or procurement of a > residential system to be eligible for the tax credits if purchased before > they expire at the end of 2025. Systems do not need to be installed before > the end of the year. > > > > If accurate, no “placed in service” 2025 deadline. > > > > “With respect to the Jan 2026 end of Section 25D(residential tax credit), > experts agree that the determination of whether a homeowner qualifies has > shifted from the previous “placed in service” test to the bill’s new > “expenditures made” test.” > > “If the homeowner pays for the installation in 2025, they could lock in > the credit, even if the system is placed in service later,” said Bryen > Alperin, Partner & Managing Director at Foss & Company." > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 11:04 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > This might be related to the technical correction to wording of 48E on > percentages of domestic content?? > > > > - Correction to Domestic Content Percentages Under 48E: The domestic > content applicable percentage under 48E for qualified facilities and energy > storage technology would be revised to match current 45Y as follows: > > > - 40% (or 20% for offshore wind) if construction begins before June > 16, 2025; > - 45% (or 27.5% for offshore wind) if construction begins after > June 16, 2025, and before Jan. 1, 2026; > - 50% (or 35% for offshore wind) if construction begins during > 2026; and > - 55% if construction begins after Dec. 31, 2026. > > > > > > This content percentage wont matter to residential system owners – 25D > still goes away at EOY, no domestic content requirements... > > Only folks leasing systems can get the credit, THEN domestic content > matters. PV Magazine has good summary article. > > > https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/07/10/what-the-budget-bill-means-for-energy-storage-tax-credit-eligibility/ > > > > Wannabe residential battery owners will likely feel the most immediate > impact of the OBBB. > > Updates to the 25D residential solar tax credit, which covers solar > panels, solar water heaters and related property like home battery storage > systems, have significantly shortened the timeline for homeowners to access > the credit. > > Now, home batteries will only qualify for the 30% tax credit if they’re > purchased and installed by the end of the year before the credit phases out > entirely. > > There is a bright spot: residential systems leased from third parties will > remain eligible for tax credits beyond 2025, as they rely on 48E instead of > 25D. > > > > > > > > > > > *Michael Mahon* (he/him) > Solar Academy Manager | SMA America > > +1 916 918 9412 > SMA America | Solar Academy > | TechTip Channel > > | Upcoming Academy Trainings > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or > any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, July 17, 2025 8:11 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* scot.arey at solarcentex.com > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Is there a domestic content reqt for batteries > effective now? For Residential? > > > > > > > > I consider myself mostly pretty aware of policy issues that effect > business but this paragraph in a Seeking Alpha investment article caught my > eye. Is there a new domestic content reqt for batteries in residential > installations? > > > > "The higher domestic content batteries comply with the new requirement in > the U.S. federal budget law, which retroactively enforces a 45% > U.S.-sourced materials threshold for solar and battery products starting > June 16, 2025." > https://seekingalpha.com/news/4468352-enphase-energy-begins-shipments-of-iq-battery-5p-with-higher-domestic-content#source=first_level_url%3Aportfolio%7Ccontent_type%3Aall%7Csection%3Aportfolio_content_unit%7Csection_asset%3Alatest%7Cline%3A1 > > > > > Enphase Energy begins shipments of IQ Battery 5P with higher domestic > content - Seeking Alpha > > > Discover Enphase Energy's new IQ Battery 5P with increased U.S.-sourced > materials, complying with updated federal standards. > > > *seekingalpha.com* > > > > > > Wanting to make sure I'm not setting up this years customers for issues > getting the 30% Federal tax credit/ > > > > > > > > > *Howard "Scot" Arey > * > > *Owner, Solar CenTex > * > > > > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > > TECL 29755 > > > 254-300-1228 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: *http://re-wrenches.org* > > List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > Change listserver email address & settings: > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > *https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/* > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > List rules & etiquette: > *http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > Check out or update participant bios: > *http://www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: *http://re-wrenches.org* > > List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > Change listserver email address & settings: > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > *https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/* > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > List rules & etiquette: > *http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > Check out or update participant bios: > *http://www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: *http://re-wrenches.org* > > List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* > > Change listserver email address & settings: > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > *https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/* > *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* > > List rules & etiquette: > *http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* > > Check out or update participant bios: > *http://www.members.re-wrenches.org* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 68542 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Jul 18 13:57:58 2025 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 17:57:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Residential_credits=3A_buy_now=2C_instal?= =?utf-8?b?bCBsYXRlcuKApj8/Pz8/?= In-Reply-To: References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> <74C15E2E-ED4F-4ED3-9518-B7547D3F6D6E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Great question. All other references within this text refer to subsections, not subparagraphs, but “subsection” b at link contains: (b) Limitations (1) Maximum credit for fuel cells In the case of any qualified fuel cell property expenditure, the credit allowed under subsection (a) (determined without regard to subsection (c)) for any taxable year shall not exceed $500 with respect to each half kilowatt of capacity of the qualified fuel cell property (as defined in section 48(c)(1)) to which such expenditure relates. (2) Certification of solar water heating property No credit shall be allowed under this section for an item of property described in subsection (d)(1) unless such property is certified for performance by the non-profit Solar Rating Certification Corporation or a comparable entity endorsed by the government of the State in which such property is installed. Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America +1 916 918 9412 SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings [cid:image001.jpg at 01DBF7DB.27227630] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, July 18, 2025 11:26 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Kirk Herander Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential credits: buy now, install later…????? So what is the text of subparagraph (B)?? Obviously there is a difference of opinion amongst expert interpreters. On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 11:43 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches > wrote: Unfortunately I think the actual language of 25D defines expenditure differently than an exchange of money, and would imagine it will be enforced by this administration... From https://www.solarinsure.com/final-changes-to-solar-tax-credit-from-h-r-1 and quoted is directly from language of 25D (I think the callout from 25D is actually (e)(8)(A) ): An interesting note with the amendment is the language “with expenditures made after December 31st”. Some have postulated that the change in language here could mean that homeowners could take the credit if they simply paid for the system before the end of 2025. This is clarified in 26 USC 25D(8)(A): “Except as provided in subparagraph (B), an expenditure with respect to an item shall be treated as made when the original installation of the item is completed.“ Unfortunately for homeowners, this means that the system does need to be fully installed by the end of 2025 in order to still claim the credit. ---------- Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America +1 916 918 9412 SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings [cid:image001.jpg at 01DBF7DB.27227630] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Amos Post via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, July 18, 2025 9:26 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Amos Post > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential credits: buy now, install later…????? If this is the case, when would the system need to be installed by??? There must be a deadline…? [cid:image002.jpg at 01DBF7DB.27227630] Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook On Jul 17, 2025, at 7:39 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: If this is accurate, that will make a big difference. I'm getting overwhelmed with requests for systems. Howie On Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 4:08 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: Residential tax credit: https://pv-magazine-usa.us13.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2790e780a1533f4bc05c8679a&id= Apparently, the bills wording allows a full purchase or procurement of a residential system to be eligible for the tax credits if purchased before they expire at the end of 2025. Systems do not need to be installed before the end of the year. If accurate, no “placed in service” 2025 deadline. “With respect to the Jan 2026 end of Section 25D(residential tax credit), experts agree that the determination of whether a homeowner qualifies has shifted from the previous “placed in service” test to the bill’s new “expenditures made” test.” “If the homeowner pays for the installation in 2025, they could lock in the credit, even if the system is placed in service later,” said Bryen Alperin, Partner & Managing Director at Foss & Company." Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 11:04 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches > wrote: This might be related to the technical correction to wording of 48E on percentages of domestic content?? * Correction to Domestic Content Percentages Under 48E: The domestic content applicable percentage under 48E for qualified facilities and energy storage technology would be revised to match current 45Y as follows: * 40% (or 20% for offshore wind) if construction begins before June 16, 2025; * 45% (or 27.5% for offshore wind) if construction begins after June 16, 2025, and before Jan. 1, 2026; * 50% (or 35% for offshore wind) if construction begins during 2026; and * 55% if construction begins after Dec. 31, 2026. This content percentage wont matter to residential system owners – 25D still goes away at EOY, no domestic content requirements... Only folks leasing systems can get the credit, THEN domestic content matters. PV Magazine has good summary article. https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/07/10/what-the-budget-bill-means-for-energy-storage-tax-credit-eligibility/ Wannabe residential battery owners will likely feel the most immediate impact of the OBBB. Updates to the 25D residential solar tax credit, which covers solar panels, solar water heaters and related property like home battery storage systems, have significantly shortened the timeline for homeowners to access the credit. Now, home batteries will only qualify for the 30% tax credit if they’re purchased and installed by the end of the year before the credit phases out entirely. There is a bright spot: residential systems leased from third parties will remain eligible for tax credits beyond 2025, as they rely on 48E instead of 25D. Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America +1 916 918 9412 SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2025 8:11 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: scot.arey at solarcentex.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is there a domestic content reqt for batteries effective now? For Residential? I consider myself mostly pretty aware of policy issues that effect business but this paragraph in a Seeking Alpha investment article caught my eye. Is there a new domestic content reqt for batteries in residential installations? "The higher domestic content batteries comply with the new requirement in the U.S. federal budget law, which retroactively enforces a 45% U.S.-sourced materials threshold for solar and battery products starting June 16, 2025." https://seekingalpha.com/news/4468352-enphase-energy-begins-shipments-of-iq-battery-5p-with-higher-domestic-content#source=first_level_url%3Aportfolio%7Ccontent_type%3Aall%7Csection%3Aportfolio_content_unit%7Csection_asset%3Alatest%7Cline%3A1 Enphase Energy begins shipments of IQ Battery 5P with higher domestic content - Seeking Alpha Discover Enphase Energy's new IQ Battery 5P with increased U.S.-sourced materials, complying with updated federal standards. seekingalpha.com Wanting to make sure I'm not setting up this years customers for issues getting the 30% Federal tax credit/ Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4zIGox3hmaGW8StlnANQvRdXBrTEgpee6ZmV_8h-pfWcEl7lwlqfhSqd2PgPh89cgzwpzfUzuuIGxKE] Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 68542 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 14:00:19 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 12:00:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Residential_credits=3A_buy_now=2C_instal?= =?utf-8?b?bCBsYXRlcuKApj8/Pz8/?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52A5BD7B-0771-486A-8D20-648F06FA1995@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri Jul 18 18:11:32 2025 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 18:11:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] removing old abosolyte cells. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Jay, Just weighted one of the cells. It came in at 82 lbs. Christopher On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 10:13 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Mac > > Someday I’ll get a battery replacement where I can just drive the truck to > the batteries. Or have a nice flat smooth concrete path to use those nice > tools that have been mentioned. > > Not this job. > > Definitely going to need a few strong laborers > > Jay > > > > > On Jul 17, 2025, at 7:17 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi Jay, > > Depending what the floor path looks like, I've used a very narrow pallet > jack to move full stacks quite easily, or perhaps rotate to a better > angle. That may allow you to get them somewhere where you can snatch them > with heavy equipment. I have used the narrow pallet jack all over the > place, super helpful. > Good Luck! > > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 3:09 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi James, >> >> I this case the cells on only 4 high so they are all low which is an >> advantage, not so far to drop! >> >> I think I can build a platform just out of wood etc that I can slide them >> out onto if they slide out. >> which thanks to Chris I think I can do it. >> >> cheers everyone >> >> jay >> >> >> >> On Jul 17, 2025, at 2:38 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Somebody was kind to you that specified those cells. Use a "Big Joe" type >> manual forklift and bring the platform up to the battery height and slide >> the cells out. Once near the ground you can just hand carry them. >> >> Two people can wrestle those out, even from the top cells, but it is real >> work. I use to do about 10k lbs of those in a day before being too >> exhausted. We routinely do 18k lb Absolyte battery loads with four people >> carrying the batteries from the helicopter landing zone and into the >> building. Four people hustling it usually takes a bit over an hour. >> >> >> -James Jefferson Jarvis >> APRS World, LLC >> +1-507-454-2727 >> http://www.aprsworld.com/ >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:27 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Yes. >>> >>> Absolyte GP 90G18 >>> 6 x 2v cells per stack >>> 4 stacks >>> weight is about 100# per cell, or roughly 700# per stack. >>> >>> On Jul 17, 2025, at 2:22 PM, Chris Schaefer >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hey Jay, >>> >>> Does this look like what you are dealing with? >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 4:14 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I’ll give that some thought. >>>> >>>> It’s too steep and narrow but it’s not too far to the road which maybe >>>> I could just pull them with the nearby tractor and a long rope. >>>> >>>> thanks >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 17, 2025, at 1:38 PM, david quattro >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> If it’s not too steep you can continually leapfrog two or 3 pieces of >>>> plywood, and roll your engine dolly on that. Or you can use a few cuts of >>>> large diameter pipe as rollers. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I was out at the job site today with the customer with the old SI >>>>> 4548. >>>>> It’s going away, primarily because she wants a mini split and her >>>>> inverter is too small at this point. >>>>> >>>>> She has of course a abosolyte battery, 6 cells per stack. >>>>> I don’t know if they will slide out or not. >>>>> >>>>> But just thought I’d ask if anyone has any tricks. >>>>> Oh and no it’s in a side room, no way to get any heavy equipment in >>>>> there, and each stack is about 600# >>>>> >>>>> Maybe I could get an engine hoist in there, but outside the door is >>>>> dirt and gravel and its a long ways to where I can put the trailer. >>>>> I am anticipating having to remove the cells to deal with it. >>>>> Cutting it apart with a right angle grinder is about the only trick I >>>>> know. But I’m guessing there are others. >>>>> >>>>> Fortunately I can install the new equipment on the other wall so I >>>>> don’t need to get the batteries out quickly. >>>>> >>>>> thanks in advance >>>>> >>>>> jay >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> >>> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> **www.solarandwindfx.com >>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> * >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> <20161129_115628.jpg> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 09:16:21 2025 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 09:16:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] removing old abosolyte cells. In-Reply-To: <637A1872-0174-4DBD-95B2-976B04CD6ABD@gmail.com> References: <4DDF04E7-2C16-FE4A-B8BF-C8A81489CA62@hxcore.ol> <043421BE-62EB-4E19-905D-57D5478B4689@gmail.com> <4679F499-5DEA-4661-AE2D-450756E1A7D2@gmail.com> <637A1872-0174-4DBD-95B2-976B04CD6ABD@gmail.com> Message-ID: This is what we use for mounting rack batteries. Even with two people, the 280ah are too heavy. Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com On Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 4:27 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yes. > > Absolyte GP 90G18 > 6 x 2v cells per stack > 4 stacks > weight is about 100# per cell, or roughly 700# per stack. > > On Jul 17, 2025, at 2:22 PM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: > > Hey Jay, > > Does this look like what you are dealing with? > > Christopher > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 4:14 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I’ll give that some thought. >> >> It’s too steep and narrow but it’s not too far to the road which maybe I >> could just pull them with the nearby tractor and a long rope. >> >> thanks >> >> >> On Jul 17, 2025, at 1:38 PM, david quattro >> wrote: >> >> If it’s not too steep you can continually leapfrog two or 3 pieces of >> plywood, and roll your engine dolly on that. Or you can use a few cuts of >> large diameter pipe as rollers. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I was out at the job site today with the customer with the old SI 4548. >>> It’s going away, primarily because she wants a mini split and her >>> inverter is too small at this point. >>> >>> She has of course a abosolyte battery, 6 cells per stack. >>> I don’t know if they will slide out or not. >>> >>> But just thought I’d ask if anyone has any tricks. >>> Oh and no it’s in a side room, no way to get any heavy equipment in >>> there, and each stack is about 600# >>> >>> Maybe I could get an engine hoist in there, but outside the door is dirt >>> and gravel and its a long ways to where I can put the trailer. >>> I am anticipating having to remove the cells to deal with it. >>> Cutting it apart with a right angle grinder is about the only trick I >>> know. But I’m guessing there are others. >>> >>> Fortunately I can install the new equipment on the other wall so I don’t >>> need to get the batteries out quickly. >>> >>> thanks in advance >>> >>> jay >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > **www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > <20161129_115628.jpg> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1000053194.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 652478 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jul 23 19:33:25 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 16:33:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Duration BOS and battery paralleling Message-ID: Friends: Recently there has been discussion on this forum about wiring Deka Duration batteries and about paralleling batteries. Here is a web page showing some techniques I am developing. I hope someone derives some ideas from this offering. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jul 25 18:19:29 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 15:19:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Knockouts far from the backplane. Message-ID: <12d27fd24ffa361c26a5955f888d098e@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I have noticed increasingly that inverters I have been using (Soul-Arc and Fortress Envy) have knockouts that are far in front of the backplane on which the inverter would be mounted. Connecting conduit from these inverters into standard gutters, load centers and pull boxes is quite a hassle: Offsets can eat up a lot of vertical space. Pulling elbows (LBs) don’t really work in this situation. See diagram below: One solutIon is to stack pull boxes or gutters, althouigh this eats up vertical space and increases the labor and parts count: How are the rest of you handling this backplane problem? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 164770 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 167762 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 18:38:15 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 15:38:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Knockouts far from the backplane. In-Reply-To: <12d27fd24ffa361c26a5955f888d098e@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d27fd24ffa361c26a5955f888d098e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Deeper gutters!-- 12x12 for 15k sol-ark and 10x10 for MNAIO On Fri, Jul 25, 2025, 3:30 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I have noticed increasingly that inverters I have been using (Soul-Arc and > Fortress Envy) have knockouts that are far in front of the backplane on > which the inverter would be mounted. Connecting conduit from these > inverters into standard gutters, load centers and pull boxes is quite a > hassle: Offsets can eat up a lot of vertical space. Pulling elbows (LBs) > don’t really work in this situation. > > > > See diagram below: > > > > > > > > > > > > One solutIon is to stack pull boxes or gutters, althouigh this eats up > vertical space and increases the labor and parts count: > > > > How are the rest of you handling this backplane problem? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 164770 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 167762 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 18:40:55 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 15:40:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Knockouts far from the backplane. In-Reply-To: References: <12d27fd24ffa361c26a5955f888d098e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Agreed. 12x12x whatever length is needed. On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 3:39 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Deeper gutters!-- 12x12 for 15k sol-ark and 10x10 for MNAIO > > > > On Fri, Jul 25, 2025, 3:30 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I have noticed increasingly that inverters I have been using (Soul-Arc >> and Fortress Envy) have knockouts that are far in front of the backplane on >> which the inverter would be mounted. Connecting conduit from these >> inverters into standard gutters, load centers and pull boxes is quite a >> hassle: Offsets can eat up a lot of vertical space. Pulling elbows (LBs) >> don’t really work in this situation. >> >> >> >> See diagram below: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> One solutIon is to stack pull boxes or gutters, althouigh this eats up >> vertical space and increases the labor and parts count: >> >> >> >> How are the rest of you handling this backplane problem? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 164770 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 167762 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Fri Jul 25 18:42:38 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 15:42:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Knockouts far from the backplane. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I noticed this on a SolArk job -- I think I bought out all of NW montana of 1" offset nipples to get 3 of them mounted to an 8" gutter once. On the Midnite AIO's a 10" gutter is perfect to not need any offsets. But you can mount smaller gutters on various levels of unistrut to space them off the wall. An 8" gutter on standard unistrut works fairly well, and I think you could space a 6" off with two or three levels of unistrut to get it to line up well. Of course then the gutter is too far from the wall to easily mount other equipment on top of it, and it can be harder to do rear entries into the gutter from the wall. That's where the 10" gutter is nicer, because it can catch the front of the inverter, as well as an AC panel or such mounted off to the side of the inverter, and catch pass throughs into the back of it. I'm not sure about the SolArk and Fortress, but I imagine they'd be pretty similar. Zeke > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 15:19:29 -0700 > From: William Miller > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Knockouts far from the backplane. > Message-ID: <12d27fd24ffa361c26a5955f888d098e at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Friends: > > > > I have noticed increasingly that inverters I have been using (Soul-Arc and > Fortress Envy) have knockouts that are far in front of the backplane on > which the inverter would be mounted. Connecting conduit from these > inverters into standard gutters, load centers and pull boxes is quite a > hassle: Offsets can eat up a lot of vertical space. Pulling elbows (LBs) > don?t really work in this situation. > > > > See diagram below: > > > > > > > > > > > > One solutIon is to stack pull boxes or gutters, althouigh this eats up > vertical space and increases the labor and parts count: > > > > How are the rest of you handling this backplane problem? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250725/5dd8985c/attachment.htm > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: image002.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 164770 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250725/5dd8985c/attachment.jpg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: image006.jpg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 167762 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250725/5dd8985c/attachment-0001.jpg > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 18, Issue 283 > ******************************************** > -- Zeke Yewdall PV Engineer NABCEP #031508-89 zeke at darkforestsolar.com 303-523-3592 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 18:52:25 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 15:52:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Knockouts far from the backplane. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At my house(before I got hip to using bigger gutters) I furred out the wall with 2x4s and 1/2" plywood and used a 6" for my AIO...worked nicely. On Fri, Jul 25, 2025, 3:43 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I noticed this on a SolArk job -- I think I bought out all of NW montana > of 1" offset nipples to get 3 of them mounted to an 8" gutter once. > > On the Midnite AIO's a 10" gutter is perfect to not need any offsets. But > you can mount smaller gutters on various levels of unistrut to space them > off the wall. An 8" gutter on standard unistrut works fairly well, and I > think you could space a 6" off with two or three levels of unistrut to get > it to line up well. Of course then the gutter is too far from the wall to > easily mount other equipment on top of it, and it can be harder to do rear > entries into the gutter from the wall. That's where the 10" gutter is > nicer, because it can catch the front of the inverter, as well as an AC > panel or such mounted off to the side of the inverter, and catch pass > throughs into the back of it. I'm not sure about the SolArk and Fortress, > but I imagine they'd be pretty similar. > > Zeke > > >> Message: 1 >> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 15:19:29 -0700 >> From: William Miller >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Knockouts far from the backplane. >> Message-ID: <12d27fd24ffa361c26a5955f888d098e at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I have noticed increasingly that inverters I have been using (Soul-Arc and >> Fortress Envy) have knockouts that are far in front of the backplane on >> which the inverter would be mounted. Connecting conduit from these >> inverters into standard gutters, load centers and pull boxes is quite a >> hassle: Offsets can eat up a lot of vertical space. Pulling elbows (LBs) >> don?t really work in this situation. >> >> >> >> See diagram below: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> One solutIon is to stack pull boxes or gutters, althouigh this eats up >> vertical space and increases the labor and parts count: >> >> >> >> How are the rest of you handling this backplane problem? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250725/5dd8985c/attachment.htm >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: image002.jpg >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 164770 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: < >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250725/5dd8985c/attachment.jpg >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: image006.jpg >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 167762 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: < >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250725/5dd8985c/attachment-0001.jpg >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 18, Issue 283 >> ******************************************** >> > > > -- > Zeke Yewdall > PV Engineer > NABCEP #031508-89 > zeke at darkforestsolar.com > 303-523-3592 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 19:02:56 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 16:02:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Knockouts far from the backplane. In-Reply-To: References: <12d27fd24ffa361c26a5955f888d098e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Here's an example: [image: IMG_0626.jpg] On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 3:40 PM MD Electric & Solar < mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: > Agreed. 12x12x whatever length is needed. > > On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 3:39 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Deeper gutters!-- 12x12 for 15k sol-ark and 10x10 for MNAIO >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 25, 2025, 3:30 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> I have noticed increasingly that inverters I have been using (Soul-Arc >>> and Fortress Envy) have knockouts that are far in front of the backplane on >>> which the inverter would be mounted. Connecting conduit from these >>> inverters into standard gutters, load centers and pull boxes is quite a >>> hassle: Offsets can eat up a lot of vertical space. Pulling elbows (LBs) >>> don’t really work in this situation. >>> >>> >>> >>> See diagram below: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> One solutIon is to stack pull boxes or gutters, althouigh this eats up >>> vertical space and increases the labor and parts count: >>> >>> >>> >>> How are the rest of you handling this backplane problem? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0626.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1204033 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 164770 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 167762 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 21:05:27 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 21:05:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Knockouts far from the backplane. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I fought with 8”x8” gutters for a while, then 10”x10”…and finally made the switch to 12”x12” a few years ago and never looked back. Straight nipples are cheaper and easier to install, and I think they look better as well. With the Sol Ark 15K, the vertical fans require 6” of clearance at the bottom of the unit, so offset nipples won’t fit the bill and bending identical offsets is annoying and pushes the gutter lower down the wall the larger the offset is. On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 6:52 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > At my house(before I got hip to using bigger gutters) I furred out the > wall with 2x4s and 1/2" plywood and used a 6" for my AIO...worked nicely. > > > > > On Fri, Jul 25, 2025, 3:43 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I noticed this on a SolArk job -- I think I bought out all of NW montana >> of 1" offset nipples to get 3 of them mounted to an 8" gutter once. >> >> On the Midnite AIO's a 10" gutter is perfect to not need any offsets. >> But you can mount smaller gutters on various levels of unistrut to space >> them off the wall. An 8" gutter on standard unistrut works fairly well, >> and I think you could space a 6" off with two or three levels of unistrut >> to get it to line up well. Of course then the gutter is too far from the >> wall to easily mount other equipment on top of it, and it can be harder to >> do rear entries into the gutter from the wall. That's where the 10" gutter >> is nicer, because it can catch the front of the inverter, as well as an AC >> panel or such mounted off to the side of the inverter, and catch pass >> throughs into the back of it. I'm not sure about the SolArk and Fortress, >> but I imagine they'd be pretty similar. >> >> Zeke >> >> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 15:19:29 -0700 >>> From: William Miller >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Knockouts far from the backplane. >>> Message-ID: <12d27fd24ffa361c26a5955f888d098e at mail.gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> I have noticed increasingly that inverters I have been using (Soul-Arc >>> and >>> Fortress Envy) have knockouts that are far in front of the backplane on >>> which the inverter would be mounted. Connecting conduit from these >>> inverters into standard gutters, load centers and pull boxes is quite a >>> hassle: Offsets can eat up a lot of vertical space. Pulling elbows >>> (LBs) >>> don?t really work in this situation. >>> >>> >>> >>> See diagram below: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> One solutIon is to stack pull boxes or gutters, althouigh this eats up >>> vertical space and increases the labor and parts count: >>> >>> >>> >>> How are the rest of you handling this backplane problem? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: < >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250725/5dd8985c/attachment.htm >>> > >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >>> Name: image002.jpg >>> Type: image/jpeg >>> Size: 164770 bytes >>> Desc: not available >>> URL: < >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250725/5dd8985c/attachment.jpg >>> > >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >>> Name: image006.jpg >>> Type: image/jpeg >>> Size: 167762 bytes >>> Desc: not available >>> URL: < >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250725/5dd8985c/attachment-0001.jpg >>> > >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Subject: Digest Footer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 18, Issue 283 >>> ******************************************** >>> >> >> >> -- >> Zeke Yewdall >> PV Engineer >> NABCEP #031508-89 >> zeke at darkforestsolar.com >> 303-523-3592 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Jul 26 10:18:02 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2025 10:18:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Knockouts far from the backplane. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I use 10x10 gutters for Midhite AIO and 12x12 for Sol-Ark. It works great. I attached a pic of a recent Midnite installation. Note that the hack job flex conduit is not mine. That was the builder's electrical contractor. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 6:43 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I noticed this on a SolArk job -- I think I bought out all of NW montana > of 1" offset nipples to get 3 of them mounted to an 8" gutter once. > > On the Midnite AIO's a 10" gutter is perfect to not need any offsets. But > you can mount smaller gutters on various levels of unistrut to space them > off the wall. An 8" gutter on standard unistrut works fairly well, and I > think you could space a 6" off with two or three levels of unistrut to get > it to line up well. Of course then the gutter is too far from the wall to > easily mount other equipment on top of it, and it can be harder to do rear > entries into the gutter from the wall. That's where the 10" gutter is > nicer, because it can catch the front of the inverter, as well as an AC > panel or such mounted off to the side of the inverter, and catch pass > throughs into the back of it. I'm not sure about the SolArk and Fortress, > but I imagine they'd be pretty similar. > > Zeke > > >> Message: 1 >> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 15:19:29 -0700 >> From: William Miller >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Knockouts far from the backplane. >> Message-ID: <12d27fd24ffa361c26a5955f888d098e at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I have noticed increasingly that inverters I have been using (Soul-Arc and >> Fortress Envy) have knockouts that are far in front of the backplane on >> which the inverter would be mounted. Connecting conduit from these >> inverters into standard gutters, load centers and pull boxes is quite a >> hassle: Offsets can eat up a lot of vertical space. Pulling elbows (LBs) >> don?t really work in this situation. >> >> >> >> See diagram below: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> One solutIon is to stack pull boxes or gutters, althouigh this eats up >> vertical space and increases the labor and parts count: >> >> >> >> How are the rest of you handling this backplane problem? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250725/5dd8985c/attachment.htm >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: image002.jpg >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 164770 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: < >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250725/5dd8985c/attachment.jpg >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: image006.jpg >> Type: image/jpeg >> Size: 167762 bytes >> Desc: not available >> URL: < >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250725/5dd8985c/attachment-0001.jpg >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 18, Issue 283 >> ******************************************** >> > > > -- > Zeke Yewdall > PV Engineer > NABCEP #031508-89 > zeke at darkforestsolar.com > 303-523-3592 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 118017.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 144202 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jul 26 17:55:16 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2025 15:55:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BOS equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2E6528AB-6F59-42F3-A9ED-E17053830E38@gmail.com> What to me this thread shows is the lack of complete engineering from these OEM's to be able to actually install their equipment to NEC specifications by not providing the needed BOS equipment. I respect the ingenuity that has been shown here in creating the products the OEM’s should have available. Whether it’s OEM conduit bodies/box to fit specific batteries or inverters or how to run cables or even mount cables to their batteries or battery combiner box/breakers etc improvement is way overdue. I mean in the 90’s Trace had a fully integrated power panel with all the parts, or Outback, or Magnum or Midnite. Why have we gone backwards such that we the installers are having to do custom work to create products to install the system? These companies can buy expensive equipment from china but can’t supply a conduit box that has the same KO pattern as the inverter or integrate to the battery? I don’t know about you all but I always install a bypass switch, why don’t they have one that integrates into the system? It’s one of the reasons i’ve been buying EG4 products. They are providing a complete set of parts all from 1 OEM: inverters/batteries,conduit bodies, battery cables. For example they have a mounting jig that comes with the battery so you can mount the inverter bracket exactly where it needs to be so they can be attached together, that is slick. It saves me a ton of time/hassle and the customer money. They have touch safe quick connect battery connectors and they sell the parts to make them yourself, I like that. Oh believe me there is any number of things I’d have them change/modify/upgrade but to me they have been thinking like an installer with providing all this equipment. In the mean time I”ll wait for the others to bring the parts that make it easy and code to install. Jay > On Jul 26, 2025, at 8:18 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I use 10x10 gutters for Midhite AIO and 12x12 for Sol-Ark. It works great. > > I attached a pic of a recent Midnite installation. Note that the hack job flex conduit is not mine. That was the builder's electrical contractor. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 6:43 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> I noticed this on a SolArk job -- I think I bought out all of NW montana of 1" offset nipples to get 3 of them mounted to an 8" gutter once. >> >> On the Midnite AIO's a 10" gutter is perfect to not need any offsets. But you can mount smaller gutters on various levels of unistrut to space them off the wall. An 8" gutter on standard unistrut works fairly well, and I think you could space a 6" off with two or three levels of unistrut to get it to line up well. Of course then the gutter is too far from the wall to easily mount other equipment on top of it, and it can be harder to do rear entries into the gutter from the wall. That's where the 10" gutter is nicer, because it can catch the front of the inverter, as well as an AC panel or such mounted off to the side of the inverter, and catch pass throughs into the back of it. I'm not sure about the SolArk and Fortress, but I imagine they'd be pretty similar. >> >> Zeke >> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 15:19:29 -0700 >>> From: William Miller > >>> To: RE-wrenches > >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Knockouts far from the backplane. >>> Message-ID: <12d27fd24ffa361c26a5955f888d098e at mail.gmail.com > >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> I have noticed increasingly that inverters I have been using (Soul-Arc and >>> Fortress Envy) have knockouts that are far in front of the backplane on >>> which the inverter would be mounted. Connecting conduit from these >>> inverters into standard gutters, load centers and pull boxes is quite a >>> hassle: Offsets can eat up a lot of vertical space. Pulling elbows (LBs) >>> don?t really work in this situation. >>> >>> >>> >>> See diagram below: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> One solutIon is to stack pull boxes or gutters, althouigh this eats up >>> vertical space and increases the labor and parts count: >>> >>> >>> >>> How are the rest of you handling this backplane problem? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >>> Name: image002.jpg >>> Type: image/jpeg >>> Size: 164770 bytes >>> Desc: not available >>> URL: >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >>> Name: image006.jpg >>> Type: image/jpeg >>> Size: 167762 bytes >>> Desc: not available >>> URL: >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Subject: Digest Footer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 18, Issue 283 >>> ******************************************** >> >> >> >> -- >> Zeke Yewdall >> PV Engineer >> NABCEP #031508-89 >> zeke at darkforestsolar.com >> 303-523-3592 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > <118017.jpeg>_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Sat Jul 26 18:55:31 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2025 15:55:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BOS equipment In-Reply-To: <2E6528AB-6F59-42F3-A9ED-E17053830E38@gmail.com> References: <2E6528AB-6F59-42F3-A9ED-E17053830E38@gmail.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Jul 26 22:50:27 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2025 22:50:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BOS equipment In-Reply-To: References: <2E6528AB-6F59-42F3-A9ED-E17053830E38@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yep, EG4 is definitely listening to installers and building out a complete line of products. There is no denying that. I was an early detractor for this DIY focused manufacturer, but that has quickly changed. Even the modern and venerable Enphase has their ridiculous System Controller with a tapered enclosure and 1" offset backplate from the wall. It's infuriating trying to get in and out of that thing. I do like the Midnite AIO prepunched holes, but the plastic bushings they provide don't work with my knockout punch set. They are too big. I have resorted to carbide bits to match the hole size, but getting those lined up / centered is not easy. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Jul 26, 2025, 6:57 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The Discover Helios battery can be purchased with a pre-built gutter box > that mates it together with a Solark 15 K. The problem is most of our > installs are at least two of the Helios batteries. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Jul 26, 2025, at 2:56 PM, jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > What to me this thread shows is the lack of complete engineering from > these OEM's to be able to actually install their equipment to NEC > specifications by not providing the needed BOS equipment. > I respect the ingenuity that has been shown here in creating the products > the OEM’s should have available. > > Whether it’s OEM conduit bodies/box to fit specific batteries or inverters > or how to run cables or even mount cables to their batteries or battery > combiner box/breakers etc improvement is way overdue. > > I mean in the 90’s Trace had a fully integrated power panel with all the > parts, or Outback, or Magnum or Midnite. > Why have we gone backwards such that we the installers are having to do > custom work to create products to install the system? These companies > can buy expensive equipment from china but can’t supply a conduit box that > has the same KO pattern as the inverter or integrate to the battery? > I don’t know about you all but I always install a bypass switch, why don’t > they have one that integrates into the system? > > It’s one of the reasons i’ve been buying EG4 products. They are providing > a complete set of parts all from 1 OEM: inverters/batteries,conduit > bodies, battery cables. For example they have a mounting jig that comes > with the battery so you can mount the inverter bracket exactly where it > needs to be so they can be attached together, that is slick. It saves me a > ton of time/hassle and the customer money. They have touch safe quick > connect battery connectors and they sell the parts to make them yourself, I > like that. > Oh believe me there is any number of things I’d have them > change/modify/upgrade but to me they have been thinking like an installer > with providing all this equipment. > > In the mean time I”ll wait for the others to bring the parts that make it > easy and code to install. > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 26, 2025, at 8:18 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I use 10x10 gutters for Midhite AIO and 12x12 for Sol-Ark. It works great. > > I attached a pic of a recent Midnite installation. Note that the hack job > flex conduit is not mine. That was the builder's electrical contractor. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 6:43 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I noticed this on a SolArk job -- I think I bought out all of NW montana >> of 1" offset nipples to get 3 of them mounted to an 8" gutter once. >> >> On the Midnite AIO's a 10" gutter is perfect to not need any offsets. >> But you can mount smaller gutters on various levels of unistrut to space >> them off the wall. An 8" gutter on standard unistrut works fairly well, >> and I think you could space a 6" off with two or three levels of unistrut >> to get it to line up well. Of course then the gutter is too far from the >> wall to easily mount other equipment on top of it, and it can be harder to >> do rear entries into the gutter from the wall. That's where the 10" gutter >> is nicer, because it can catch the front of the inverter, as well as an AC >> panel or such mounted off to the side of the inverter, and catch pass >> throughs into the back of it. I'm not sure about the SolArk and Fortress, >> but I imagine they'd be pretty similar. >> >> Zeke >> >> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 15:19:29 -0700 >>> From: William Miller >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Knockouts far from the backplane. >>> Message-ID: <12d27fd24ffa361c26a5955f888d098e at mail.gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> I have noticed increasingly that inverters I have been using (Soul-Arc >>> and >>> Fortress Envy) have knockouts that are far in front of the backplane on >>> which the inverter would be mounted. Connecting conduit from these >>> inverters into standard gutters, load centers and pull boxes is quite a >>> hassle: Offsets can eat up a lot of vertical space. Pulling elbows >>> (LBs) >>> don?t really work in this situation. >>> >>> >>> >>> See diagram below: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> One solutIon is to stack pull boxes or gutters, althouigh this eats up >>> vertical space and increases the labor and parts count: >>> >>> >>> >>> How are the rest of you handling this backplane problem? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: < >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250725/5dd8985c/attachment.htm >>> > >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >>> Name: image002.jpg >>> Type: image/jpeg >>> Size: 164770 bytes >>> Desc: not available >>> URL: < >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250725/5dd8985c/attachment.jpg >>> > >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >>> Name: image006.jpg >>> Type: image/jpeg >>> Size: 167762 bytes >>> Desc: not available >>> URL: < >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250725/5dd8985c/attachment-0001.jpg >>> > >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Subject: Digest Footer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 18, Issue 283 >>> ******************************************** >>> >> >> >> -- >> Zeke Yewdall >> PV Engineer >> NABCEP #031508-89 >> zeke at darkforestsolar.com >> 303-523-3592 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> <118017.jpeg>_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 09:22:20 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2025 09:22:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Speaking of Outback In-Reply-To: <8c09101948f5b01dcfa38152547aac27@sti.net> References: <2A3866C1-254E-49E7-8D71-2977652EF207@gmail.com> <8c09101948f5b01dcfa38152547aac27@sti.net> Message-ID: Concerning Optics-RE, I have had difficulty getting customer logged in when adding users, and now Data is a day behind. Ending at noon the day before. Are others having issues? John Blittersdorf Off Grid Vermont. On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 6:38 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hey Jay, Last post on the forum was June 19th. Optics worked for me on a > client last week. I do not expect good things from what I read... > > The X feed on the old twitter for Outback power systems is > https://x.com/OpticsRE > > I' ve heard all the Signature solar stuff, nothing new. A search from a > minute ago got this from Google AI > > > - Marshall Neipert is the new president of Outback Power under this > new ownership. > - The physical and human resources of Outback have reportedly > relocated to Texas. > - Signature Solar is a distributor and is owned by the same founder as > EG4 Electronics. > > > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-06-29 2:15 pm, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Does anyone have any updated info as to the current status of OB? > > Thx > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 09:48:14 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2025 07:48:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BOS equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Jul 27 10:43:22 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2025 08:43:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Speaking of Outback In-Reply-To: References: <2A3866C1-254E-49E7-8D71-2977652EF207@gmail.com> <8c09101948f5b01dcfa38152547aac27@sti.net> Message-ID: Yes, same issue seen on our end. On Sun, Jul 27, 2025 at 7:22 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Concerning Optics-RE, I have had difficulty getting customer logged in > when adding users, and now Data is a day behind. Ending at noon the day > before. Are others having issues? > > John Blittersdorf > Off Grid Vermont. > > On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 6:38 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Hey Jay, Last post on the forum was June 19th. Optics worked for me on >> a client last week. I do not expect good things from what I read... >> >> The X feed on the old twitter for Outback power systems is >> https://x.com/OpticsRE >> >> I' ve heard all the Signature solar stuff, nothing new. A search from a >> minute ago got this from Google AI >> >> >> - Marshall Neipert is the new president of Outback Power under this >> new ownership. >> - The physical and human resources of Outback have reportedly >> relocated to Texas. >> - Signature Solar is a distributor and is owned by the same founder >> as EG4 Electronics. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2025-06-29 2:15 pm, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Does anyone have any updated info as to the current status of OB? >> >> Thx >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Sun Jul 27 10:46:39 2025 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2025 07:46:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Speaking of Outback In-Reply-To: References: <2A3866C1-254E-49E7-8D71-2977652EF207@gmail.com> <8c09101948f5b01dcfa38152547aac27@sti.net> Message-ID: Same here... I can see live power flow but cumulative totals aren't reported till the next day. Odd! Someone has been messing with a good thing! Kirpal On Sun, Jul 27, 2025, 7:43 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yes, same issue seen on our end. > > > > On Sun, Jul 27, 2025 at 7:22 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Concerning Optics-RE, I have had difficulty getting customer logged in >> when adding users, and now Data is a day behind. Ending at noon the day >> before. Are others having issues? >> >> John Blittersdorf >> Off Grid Vermont. >> >> On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 6:38 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> Hey Jay, Last post on the forum was June 19th. Optics worked for me on >>> a client last week. I do not expect good things from what I read... >>> >>> The X feed on the old twitter for Outback power systems is >>> https://x.com/OpticsRE >>> >>> I' ve heard all the Signature solar stuff, nothing new. A search from a >>> minute ago got this from Google AI >>> >>> >>> - Marshall Neipert is the new president of Outback Power under this >>> new ownership. >>> - The physical and human resources of Outback have reportedly >>> relocated to Texas. >>> - Signature Solar is a distributor and is owned by the same founder >>> as EG4 Electronics. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2025-06-29 2:15 pm, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Does anyone have any updated info as to the current status of OB? >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Jul 28 10:52:49 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2025 10:52:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Rack/Battery Recommendations and Vendor Recommendation? In-Reply-To: References: <2A3866C1-254E-49E7-8D71-2977652EF207@gmail.com> <8c09101948f5b01dcfa38152547aac27@sti.net> Message-ID: <934ab48d-4089-4d97-8c72-b343590f4723@entech-engineering.com> Hi Wrenches, I have two battery add ons to existing 12kW SolArk systems to be completed by the end of this year.  I had been using the Outback battery and rack system, but that is not an option from what I can find. Can anyone recommend battery racking products for deep cycle batteries and vendors? I looked at NAZ, but the options seemed limited. Details are: -3 parallel strings of 12 v. -Battery not chosen yet but we have been using Crown deep cycle as they are fairly local and can be shipped to our ferry terminal at no cost.  12CRV4D or 8D Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: f0TxsMKrd91BwO5r.png Type: image/png Size: 287354 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Mon Jul 28 11:40:03 2025 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2025 11:40:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Rack/Battery Recommendations and Vendor Recommendation? In-Reply-To: <934ab48d-4089-4d97-8c72-b343590f4723@entech-engineering.com> References: <2A3866C1-254E-49E7-8D71-2977652EF207@gmail.com> <8c09101948f5b01dcfa38152547aac27@sti.net> <934ab48d-4089-4d97-8c72-b343590f4723@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <002001dbffd5$e3d9f2b0$ab8dd810$@mindspring.com> Chris Please take a look at Two Explorers LLC 812 East Hwy 174 Republic Mo 65738 417 861 3377 Thx peter From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, July 28, 2025 10:53 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Christopher Warfel Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Rack/Battery Recommendations and Vendor Recommendation? Hi Wrenches, I have two battery add ons to existing 12kW SolArk systems to be completed by the end of this year. I had been using the Outback battery and rack system, but that is not an option from what I can find. Can anyone recommend battery racking products for deep cycle batteries and vendors? I looked at NAZ, but the options seemed limited. Details are: -3 parallel strings of 12 v. -Battery not chosen yet but we have been using Crown deep cycle as they are fairly local and can be shipped to our ferry terminal at no cost. 12CRV4D or 8D Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 287354 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Mon Jul 28 12:30:19 2025 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2025 12:30:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Rack/Battery Recommendations and Vendor Recommendation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A5F00DD-60A6-465F-AF66-413303AEA872@sunwindpowerinc.com> Chris, I have a gently used Outback IBR-3-48-175 that is just taking up space (along with a slew of other new and used inverters/CC’s/BOS). Contact me off list if you’re interested. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified  On Jul 28, 2025, at 11:40 AM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org You can reach the person managing the list at re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the exact original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics: 1. Re: Battery Rack/Battery Recommendations and Vendor Recommendation? (pgiroux at mindspring.com ) From: > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Rack/Battery Recommendations and Vendor Recommendation? Date: July 28, 2025 at 11:40:03 AM EDT To: >, "'RE-wrenches'" > Chris Please take a look at Two Explorers LLC 812 East Hwy 174 Republic Mo 65738 417 861 3377 Thx peter From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, July 28, 2025 10:53 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Christopher Warfel > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Rack/Battery Recommendations and Vendor Recommendation? Hi Wrenches, I have two battery add ons to existing 12kW SolArk systems to be completed by the end of this year. I had been using the Outback battery and rack system, but that is not an option from what I can find. Can anyone recommend battery racking products for deep cycle batteries and vendors? I looked at NAZ, but the options seemed limited. Details are: -3 parallel strings of 12 v. -Battery not chosen yet but we have been using Crown deep cycle as they are fairly local and can be shipped to our ferry terminal at no cost. 12CRV4D or 8D  Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2022 Logo Blue Tagline 2x no phone - small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23571 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Seal.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18157 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 10:44:20 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 07:44:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD Message-ID: <69DF1495-3A51-4544-89EB-905A65F1BD3E@gmail.com> Wrenches, I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 11:06:15 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 09:06:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: <69DF1495-3A51-4544-89EB-905A65F1BD3E@gmail.com> References: <69DF1495-3A51-4544-89EB-905A65F1BD3E@gmail.com> Message-ID: What is the layout of the equipment Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? Jay > On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches, > I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? > > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 11:43:13 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 08:43:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 147895 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > What is the layout of the equipment > > Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? > > Jay > >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? >> >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 11:49:17 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 09:49:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> Message-ID: <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code reference they are referring to. The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the other side of a wall. Thats as clean an install as they come jay > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar wrote: > > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> What is the layout of the equipment >> >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >> >> Jay >> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? >>> >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>> 707-884-1862 office >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 12:09:22 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 09:09:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> Message-ID: Here is the reference, attached. On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay wrote: > I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code reference > they are referring to. > > The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the > other side of a wall. > > Thats as clean an install as they come > > jay > > > > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar > wrote: > > > > > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > > 707-684-0064 mobile > > 707-884-1862 office > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> > >> What is the layout of the equipment > >> > >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? > >> > >> Jay > >> > >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> Wrenches, > >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told > me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my > LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of > knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to > this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries > happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has > its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery > disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the > solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does > anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct > code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? > >>> > >>> > >>> Michael D Nelson > >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > >>> 707-684-0064 mobile > >>> 707-884-1862 office > >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com > >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> > >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PRMD BLD_20250728_062230.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 150178 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 12:16:10 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 10:16:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly it does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is correct in the need for one if I understand. jay > On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar wrote: > > Here is the reference, attached. > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay > wrote: >> I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code reference they are referring to. >> >> The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the other side of a wall. >> >> Thats as clean an install as they come >> >> jay >> >> >> >> > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar > wrote: >> > >> > >> > Michael D Nelson >> > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> > 707-684-0064 mobile >> > 707-884-1862 office >> > www.mdelectricsolar.com >> > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> > >> > >> >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> >> >> What is the layout of the equipment >> >> >> >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >> >> >> >> Jay >> >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Wrenches, >> >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Michael D Nelson >> >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >> >>> 707-884-1862 office >> >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>> >> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >>> List rules & etiquette: >> >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>> >> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >> >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 12:23:57 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 09:23:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery disconnect. Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC rated knife switch. Mike On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay wrote: > I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly it > does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is > correct in the need for one if I understand. > > jay > > > > > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar < > mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: > > Here is the reference, attached. > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay wrote: > >> I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code >> reference they are referring to. >> >> The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the >> other side of a wall. >> >> Thats as clean an install as they come >> >> jay >> >> >> >> > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > Michael D Nelson >> > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> > 707-684-0064 mobile >> > 707-884-1862 office >> > www.mdelectricsolar.com >> > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> > >> > >> >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> What is the layout of the equipment >> >> >> >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >> >> >> >> Jay >> >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Wrenches, >> >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told >> me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my >> LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of >> knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to >> this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries >> happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has >> its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery >> disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the >> solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does >> anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct >> code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Michael D Nelson >> >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >> >>> 707-884-1862 office >> >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>> >> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >>> List rules & etiquette: >> >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>> >> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >> >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 12:38:57 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 10:38:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard with instructions on the outside that would work? > On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar wrote: > > Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery disconnect. > Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC rated knife switch. > Mike > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay > wrote: >> I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly it does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is correct in the need for one if I understand. >> >> jay >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar > wrote: >>> >>> Here is the reference, attached. >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay > wrote: >>>> I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code reference they are referring to. >>>> >>>> The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the other side of a wall. >>>> >>>> Thats as clean an install as they come >>>> >>>> jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar > wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Michael D Nelson >>>> > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>> > 707-684-0064 mobile >>>> > 707-884-1862 office >>>> > www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>> > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> What is the layout of the equipment >>>> >> >>>> >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >>>> >> >>>> >> Jay >>>> >> >>>> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Wrenches, >>>> >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>>> >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>> >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>> >>> 707-884-1862 office >>>> >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>> >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >> >>>> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>>> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >> >>>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 12:45:53 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 09:45:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wondering if Midnight solar makes something outdoor rated, with a typical 250ADC breaker, like this: Outdoor rated, lockable.... https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:39 AM jay wrote: > Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard with > instructions on the outside that would work? > > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar < > mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: > > Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the > cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery > disconnect. > Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC > rated knife switch. > Mike > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay wrote: > >> I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly it >> does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is >> correct in the need for one if I understand. >> >> jay >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar < >> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Here is the reference, attached. >> >> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay wrote: >> >>> I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code >>> reference they are referring to. >>> >>> The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the >>> other side of a wall. >>> >>> Thats as clean an install as they come >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> >>> > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar < >>> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > Michael D Nelson >>> > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> > 707-684-0064 mobile >>> > 707-884-1862 office >>> > www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> > >>> > >>> >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> What is the layout of the equipment >>> >> >>> >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >>> >> >>> >> Jay >>> >> >>> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told >>> me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my >>> LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of >>> knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to >>> this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries >>> happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has >>> its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery >>> disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the >>> solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does >>> anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct >>> code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>> >>> 707-884-1862 office >>> >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >> >>> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >> >>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >> Office: 707-412-3181 >> Cell: 707-684-0064 >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 29 13:06:50 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 10:06:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Friends: As I see it there are three reasons to have this disconnecting means: 1. Section 705 Code requirement. 2. Disconnecting for service. 3. Rapid shutdown for first responders. It would be ideal if batteries with BMS systems had contact-closure triggered inhibit system. The capability is baked into the circuitry, I am sure. This would be far superior to heavy duty DC knife switches. I am discussing that with Deka for the Duration line. For first responders I have argued that the batteries that ultimately power fire alarms or fire pumps should not be disconnected, avoiding the requirement for reason 3 above. I suspect 100 amps may be an insufficient rating for your batteries if they have 80 amp disconnects and there are more than one. I would be arguing the breaker(s) on the inverter are sufficient. Is it possible to provide a lock-out on that breaker? Keep us posted. This could happen to any of us. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:24 AM MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the > cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery > disconnect. > Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC > rated knife switch. > Mike > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay wrote: > >> I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly it >> does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is >> correct in the need for one if I understand. >> >> jay >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar < >> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Here is the reference, attached. >> >> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay wrote: >> >>> I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code >>> reference they are referring to. >>> >>> The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the >>> other side of a wall. >>> >>> Thats as clean an install as they come >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> >>> > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar < >>> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > Michael D Nelson >>> > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> > 707-684-0064 mobile >>> > 707-884-1862 office >>> > www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> > >>> > >>> >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> What is the layout of the equipment >>> >> >>> >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >>> >> >>> >> Jay >>> >> >>> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told >>> me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my >>> LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of >>> knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to >>> this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries >>> happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has >>> its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery >>> disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the >>> solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does >>> anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct >>> code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>> >>> 707-884-1862 office >>> >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >> >>> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >> >>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >> Office: 707-412-3181 >> Cell: 707-684-0064 >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sue at midnitesolar.com Tue Jul 29 13:09:11 2025 From: Sue at midnitesolar.com (Sue Stankevitz) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 17:09:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Midnite does not offer an outdoor rated enclosure for our large breakers but if only 100a was needed as Mike was asking about our MNPV3 with an MNEPV100(100a DC breaker) would be outdoor rated and lockable. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DC0089.F8BE1A80] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2025 12:46 PM To: jay Cc: MD Electric & Solar ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD Wondering if Midnight solar makes something outdoor rated, with a typical 250ADC breaker, like this: Outdoor rated, lockable.... https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:39 AM jay > wrote: Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard with instructions on the outside that would work? On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar > wrote: Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery disconnect. Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC rated knife switch. Mike On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay > wrote: I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly it does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is correct in the need for one if I understand. jay On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar > wrote: Here is the reference, attached. On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay > wrote: I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code reference they are referring to. The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the other side of a wall. Thats as clean an install as they come jay > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar > wrote: > > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> What is the layout of the equipment >> >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >> >> Jay >> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? >>> >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>> 707-884-1862 office >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 13:14:34 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 10:14:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would normally want at least a 200A rated DC disconnect, as William discusses above, but the inspector said a 100A knife switch would satisfy him, just as an emergency kill switch. I would love to see the battery manu's have an internal kill switch with a small RSD button that we could locate next to the other required RSD button. William, there is no lockable feature on the simpliphi/briggs LFP batteries, unfortunately. On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 10:09 AM Sue Stankevitz wrote: > Midnite does not offer an outdoor rated enclosure for our large breakers > but if only 100a was needed as Mike was asking about our MNPV3 with an > MNEPV100(100a DC breaker) would be outdoor rated and lockable. > > > > Sue Stankevitz > MidNite Solar, Inc. > (360) 403-7207 (XT122) > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 29, 2025 12:46 PM > *To:* jay > *Cc:* MD Electric & Solar ; RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD > > > > Wondering if Midnight solar makes something outdoor rated, with a typical > 250ADC breaker, like this: > > Outdoor rated, lockable.... > > > https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p > > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:39 AM jay wrote: > > Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard with > instructions on the outside that would work? > > > > > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar < > mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the > cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery > disconnect. > > Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC > rated knife switch. > > Mike > > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay wrote: > > I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly it > does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is > correct in the need for one if I understand. > > > > jay > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar < > mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Here is the reference, attached. > > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay wrote: > > I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code reference > they are referring to. > > The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the > other side of a wall. > > Thats as clean an install as they come > > jay > > > > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar > wrote: > > > > > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > > 707-684-0064 mobile > > 707-884-1862 office > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> > >> What is the layout of the equipment > >> > >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? > >> > >> Jay > >> > >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> Wrenches, > >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told > me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my > LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of > knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to > this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries > happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has > its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery > disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the > solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does > anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct > code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? > >>> > >>> > >>> Michael D Nelson > >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > >>> 707-684-0064 mobile > >>> 707-884-1862 office > >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com > >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> > >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > > > > -- > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > > Office: 707-412-3181 > > Cell: 707-684-0064 > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > > Office: 707-412-3181 > > Cell: 707-684-0064 > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > > Office: 707-412-3181 > > Cell: 707-684-0064 > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 13:16:04 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 11:16:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jul 29 13:21:52 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 10:21:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <58090721e3cb57da8ac4c074ba05b61a@sti.net> I know very little about Solark and happy about it. In the old days, Midnite and Schneider had a 10 dollar switch that would shut down the inverter from outside. When I had to use this it was great as I could just remove it after the bozo, I mean inspector left. If he really wants a knife switch (the oldest of oldest ways to shut down all the way back to Edison.) Install one and deal with it later. Good Luck ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [6]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [7] [6] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-07-29 9:45 am, MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wondering if Midnight solar makes something outdoor rated, with a > typical 250ADC breaker, like this: > Outdoor rated, lockable.... > https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p > [1] > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:39 AM jay wrote: > Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard with > instructions on the outside that would work? > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar > wrote: > > Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the > cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a > battery disconnect. > Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC > rated knife switch. > Mike > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay wrote: > I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly > it does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is > correct in the need for one if I understand. > > jay > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar > wrote: > > Here is the reference, attached. > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay wrote: I'll > let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code reference > they are referring to. > > The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the > other side of a wall. > > Thats as clean an install as they come > > jay > >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar >> wrote: >> >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com [2] >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [3] >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> What is the layout of the equipment >>> >>> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told >>>> me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type >>>> between my LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned >>>> some type of knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot >>>> find any reference to this requirement anywhere but he insists it is >>>> required. These batteries happen to be simplify or brakes and >>>> Stratton batteries and each battery has its own 80 amp breaker on >>>> the battery and the Solark has a battery disconnect switch built-in. >>>> We do have module level RSD which kills the solar output as well as >>>> the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does anyone have any >>>> experience with this or can they point me to the correct code >>>> section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? >>>> >>>> >>>> Michael D Nelson >>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com [2] >>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [3] >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [4] >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>> try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [4] >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >>> > > -- > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com [2] > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [3] > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com [2] www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [3] -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com [2] www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p [2] http://www.mdelectricsolar.com/ [3] http://www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [4] http://re-wrenches.org/ [5] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [6] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [7] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 13:39:13 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 10:39:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: <58090721e3cb57da8ac4c074ba05b61a@sti.net> References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> <58090721e3cb57da8ac4c074ba05b61a@sti.net> Message-ID: Love the Sol-Ark 15K, have installed over 100 now. Looking to check out the EG-4. Looks like cool stuff. On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 10:23 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I know very little about Solark and happy about it. In the old days, > Midnite and Schneider had a 10 dollar switch that would shut down the > inverter from outside. When I had to use this it was great as I could just > remove it after the bozo, I mean inspector left. > > If he really wants a knife switch (the oldest of oldest ways to shut down > all the way back to Edison.) Install one and deal with it later. > > Good Luck ! > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-07-29 9:45 am, MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wondering if Midnight solar makes something outdoor rated, with a typical > 250ADC breaker, like this: > Outdoor rated, lockable.... > > https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:39 AM jay wrote: > > Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard with > instructions on the outside that would work? > > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar < > mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: > > Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the > cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery > disconnect. > Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC > rated knife switch. > Mike > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay wrote: > > I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly it > does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is > correct in the need for one if I understand. > > jay > > > > > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar < > mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: > > Here is the reference, attached. > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay wrote: > > I'll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code reference > they are referring to. > > The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the > other side of a wall. > > Thats as clean an install as they come > > jay > > > > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar > wrote: > > > > > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > > 707-684-0064 mobile > > 707-884-1862 office > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> > >> What is the layout of the equipment > >> > >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? > >> > >> Jay > >> > >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> Wrenches, > >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told > me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my > LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of > knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to > this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries > happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has > its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery > disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the > solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does > anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct > code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? > >>> > >>> > >>> Michael D Nelson > >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > >>> 707-684-0064 mobile > >>> 707-884-1862 office > >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com > >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> > >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Tue Jul 29 13:10:02 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 10:10:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: I use the SolArk 12v micro-circuit that triggers RSD. hopefully that’s all they’re looking for, is to kill ESS and solar DC. When using plunger-type, or single gang it’s easy. But when they require a knife blade style switch it’s tricky (with SolArk and Midnite). This is because in order to deenergize ESS/RSD you have to *complete* the micro circuit. Eaton makes a Nema4 switch that can be turned upside down. that puts the red handle on the left side, which is unusual but I’ve done it, and I don’t think it violates any requirement. otherwise you’re stuck using an ice cube relay. Initiating RSD is easy, but getting everything to turn back on is harder. Feel free to call me if you want On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:46 AM MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wondering if Midnight solar makes something outdoor rated, with a typical > 250ADC breaker, like this: > Outdoor rated, lockable.... > > https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:39 AM jay wrote: > >> Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard with >> instructions on the outside that would work? >> >> >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar < >> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the >> cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery >> disconnect. >> Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC >> rated knife switch. >> Mike >> >> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay wrote: >> >>> I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly it >>> does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is >>> correct in the need for one if I understand. >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar < >>> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Here is the reference, attached. >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay wrote: >>> >>>> I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code >>>> reference they are referring to. >>>> >>>> The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the >>>> other side of a wall. >>>> >>>> Thats as clean an install as they come >>>> >>>> jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar < >>>> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Michael D Nelson >>>> > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>> > 707-684-0064 mobile >>>> > 707-884-1862 office >>>> > www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>> > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> What is the layout of the equipment >>>> >> >>>> >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >>>> >> >>>> >> Jay >>>> >> >>>> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Wrenches, >>>> >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just >>>> told me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type >>>> between my LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some >>>> type of knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any >>>> reference to this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These >>>> batteries happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each >>>> battery has its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a >>>> battery disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills >>>> the solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. >>>> Does anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the >>>> correct code section or what are others doing to comply with this >>>> requirement? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>>> >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>> >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>> >>> 707-884-1862 office >>>> >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>> >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> >>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>> try the other: >>>> >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >> >>>> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>> try the other: >>>> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>>> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >> >>>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >> Office: 707-412-3181 >> Cell: 707-684-0064 >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> >> > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 13:49:20 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 10:49:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: David, We already have an RSD system installed, it shuts down the tigo's on the rooftop and it shuts down the AC output of the inverter, making the home safe for firefighters. I can't imagine what an additional battery shut down could do for safety, at 48V DC nominal? But we must comply with the AHJ........ I priced (online) an Eaton 100amp 600V DC rated knife switch NEMA 3R, $4000.00....ouch Mike On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 10:41 AM david quattro wrote: > I use the SolArk 12v micro-circuit that triggers RSD. hopefully that’s > all they’re looking for, is to kill ESS and solar DC. When using > plunger-type, or single gang it’s easy. But when they require a knife > blade style switch it’s tricky (with SolArk and Midnite). This is because > in order to deenergize ESS/RSD you have to *complete* the micro circuit. > Eaton makes a Nema4 switch that can be turned upside down. that puts > the red handle on the left side, which is unusual but I’ve done it, and I > don’t think it violates any requirement. > otherwise you’re stuck using an ice cube relay. Initiating RSD is > easy, but getting everything to turn back on is harder. Feel free to call > me if you want > > > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:46 AM MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wondering if Midnight solar makes something outdoor rated, with a typical >> 250ADC breaker, like this: >> Outdoor rated, lockable.... >> >> https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p >> >> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:39 AM jay wrote: >> >>> Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard with >>> instructions on the outside that would work? >>> >>> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar < >>> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the >>> cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery >>> disconnect. >>> Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC >>> rated knife switch. >>> Mike >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay wrote: >>> >>>> I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly >>>> it does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is >>>> correct in the need for one if I understand. >>>> >>>> jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar < >>>> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Here is the reference, attached. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay wrote: >>>> >>>>> I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code >>>>> reference they are referring to. >>>>> >>>>> The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the >>>>> other side of a wall. >>>>> >>>>> Thats as clean an install as they come >>>>> >>>>> jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar < >>>>> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Michael D Nelson >>>>> > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>> > 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>> > 707-884-1862 office >>>>> > www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>> > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> What is the layout of the equipment >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Jay >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Wrenches, >>>>> >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just >>>>> told me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type >>>>> between my LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some >>>>> type of knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any >>>>> reference to this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These >>>>> batteries happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each >>>>> battery has its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a >>>>> battery disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills >>>>> the solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. >>>>> Does anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the >>>>> correct code section or what are others doing to comply with this >>>>> requirement? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>>>> >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>> >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>> >>> 707-884-1862 office >>>>> >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>> >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> >>> >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>> try the other: >>>>> >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >> >>>>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> >> >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >> >>>>> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>> try the other: >>>>> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >> >>>>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Michael D Nelson >>>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >> Office: 707-412-3181 >> Cell: 707-684-0064 >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Tue Jul 29 14:52:31 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 11:52:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been mostly using batteries that have a built in circuit breaker on them, so haven't run into this exactly. But those circuit breakers are inside of the garage or utility room, not accessible from the exterior of the house. Of course, our typical lead acid batteries never had any disconnecting means built into them, so the disconnect was always at the inverter wiring panel... and except in cases of a wall between the batteries and the inverter, we never had to have a disconnect at the battery. My understanding of the code, 706.15 (B) allows a remotely controlled ESS disconnect -- the kill switch that turns the inverter off from the outside of the house (right next to, or even the same button as the PV array RSD). 706.(E)(1) seems to imply that the battery breaker in the inverter should be sufficient if it's within sight of the batteries. 706.15 (E) (3) does allow a remote controlled battery disconnect as well. But it's not clear whether that is accomplished by turning off the inverter remotely, or if you need a remote trip breaker? The ESS disconnect in 706.15(B) that cuts power to the house is not necessarily the same thing as the battery disconnect required in 706.15 (E). Most inspectors seem to be concerned about cutting power to the house, which is (B)... not necessarily the inner workings of the PV system (which is (E). If putting a knife blade type switch, you would actually need a 200A rated one (at least.... technically a 12kW inverter like that needs a 250A rating, which means going to a 400A disconnect.... that's going to be a monster of a switch). Unless you can get a field listing to parallel the three poles of a 100A DC disco for 300A rating. Manufacturers can do that, but not sure field wiring them in parallel would fly. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Tue Jul 29 15:25:36 2025 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 19:25:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Mike, Take a look at the Schneider VHU363NRB. The installation manual shows a single break per conductor 250 VDC, but it may be (per MH forum) that UL listing requires breaking the ungrounded conductor twice. I would confirm with Tech Support. Pricing all over the map. Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy Inaugural NABCEP PV Installer Emeritus Director, Sunstruck Consulting lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com 845-657-8132 (office) 914-844-3404 (cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2025 1:49 PM To: david quattro Cc: MD Electric & Solar ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD David, We already have an RSD system installed, it shuts down the tigo's on the rooftop and it shuts down the AC output of the inverter, making the home safe for firefighters. I can't imagine what an additional battery shut down could do for safety, at 48V DC nominal? But we must comply with the AHJ........ I priced (online) an Eaton 100amp 600V DC rated knife switch NEMA 3R, $4000.00....ouch Mike On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 10:41 AM david quattro > wrote: I use the SolArk 12v micro-circuit that triggers RSD. hopefully that’s all they’re looking for, is to kill ESS and solar DC. When using plunger-type, or single gang it’s easy. But when they require a knife blade style switch it’s tricky (with SolArk and Midnite). This is because in order to deenergize ESS/RSD you have to complete the micro circuit. Eaton makes a Nema4 switch that can be turned upside down. that puts the red handle on the left side, which is unusual but I’ve done it, and I don’t think it violates any requirement. otherwise you’re stuck using an ice cube relay. Initiating RSD is easy, but getting everything to turn back on is harder. Feel free to call me if you want On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:46 AM MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: Wondering if Midnight solar makes something outdoor rated, with a typical 250ADC breaker, like this: Outdoor rated, lockable.... https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:39 AM jay > wrote: Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard with instructions on the outside that would work? On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar > wrote: Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery disconnect. Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC rated knife switch. Mike On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay > wrote: I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly it does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is correct in the need for one if I understand. jay On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar > wrote: Here is the reference, attached. On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay > wrote: I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code reference they are referring to. The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the other side of a wall. Thats as clean an install as they come jay > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar > wrote: > > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> What is the layout of the equipment >> >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >> >> Jay >> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? >>> >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>> 707-884-1862 office >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Tue Jul 29 16:12:28 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 13:12:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: 🤦🏻‍♂️ ugh these building departments..! I’m very surprised that they’re requiring the battery conductors to open. I don’t think they understand the gravity of what they’re saying On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 10:49 AM MD Electric & Solar < mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: > David, > We already have an RSD system installed, it shuts down the tigo's on the > rooftop and it shuts down the AC output of the inverter, making the home > safe for firefighters. I can't imagine what an additional battery shut down > could do for safety, at 48V DC nominal? > But we must comply with the AHJ........ > > I priced (online) an Eaton 100amp 600V DC rated knife switch NEMA 3R, > $4000.00....ouch > > Mike > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 10:41 AM david quattro > wrote: > >> I use the SolArk 12v micro-circuit that triggers RSD. hopefully that’s >> all they’re looking for, is to kill ESS and solar DC. When using >> plunger-type, or single gang it’s easy. But when they require a knife >> blade style switch it’s tricky (with SolArk and Midnite). This is because >> in order to deenergize ESS/RSD you have to *complete* the micro circuit. >> Eaton makes a Nema4 switch that can be turned upside down. that puts >> the red handle on the left side, which is unusual but I’ve done it, and I >> don’t think it violates any requirement. >> otherwise you’re stuck using an ice cube relay. Initiating RSD is >> easy, but getting everything to turn back on is harder. Feel free to call >> me if you want >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:46 AM MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Wondering if Midnight solar makes something outdoor rated, with a >>> typical 250ADC breaker, like this: >>> Outdoor rated, lockable.... >>> >>> https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:39 AM jay wrote: >>> >>>> Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard with >>>> instructions on the outside that would work? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar < >>>> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the >>>> cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery >>>> disconnect. >>>> Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC >>>> rated knife switch. >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay wrote: >>>> >>>>> I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly >>>>> it does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is >>>>> correct in the need for one if I understand. >>>>> >>>>> jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar < >>>>> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Here is the reference, attached. >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code >>>>>> reference they are referring to. >>>>>> >>>>>> The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on >>>>>> the other side of a wall. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thats as clean an install as they come >>>>>> >>>>>> jay >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar < >>>>>> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Michael D Nelson >>>>>> > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>>> > 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>>> > 707-884-1862 office >>>>>> > www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>>> > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> What is the layout of the equipment >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Jay >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Wrenches, >>>>>> >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just >>>>>> told me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type >>>>>> between my LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some >>>>>> type of knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any >>>>>> reference to this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These >>>>>> batteries happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each >>>>>> battery has its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a >>>>>> battery disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills >>>>>> the solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. >>>>>> Does anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the >>>>>> correct code section or what are others doing to comply with this >>>>>> requirement? >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>>>>> >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>>> >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>>> >>> 707-884-1862 office >>>>>> >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>>> >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>> try the other: >>>>>> >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>> try the other: >>>>>> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>>>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>>>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Michael D Nelson >>>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 29 17:02:37 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 17:02:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hold the phone! I would not let this become a precedent in a jurisdiction where I work. I'm not a CEC expert, but I'd fight this NEC question all the way to the state board in Florida. Here, the process would be to appeal to the Building Official, and if he is as clueless as the inspector, appeal to the Building Officials Association of Florida, which issues informal and formal rulings. An ESS is a SYSTEM. As defined (NEC 2020), it is "One or more components assembled together capable of storing energy and providing electrical energy into the premises wiring system or an electric power production and distribution network." The inspector is conflating a *battery* with an *ESS*. Technically, the Simpliphi "battery" is really a battery with a BMS, the combination of which *could* be an ESS if that were all there was to the system, but in this context, the battery and BMS are simply parts of a larger ESS. A *battery* and BMS are just *components* of an ESS. There is a clear informational note in the NEC Handbook that includes inverters in what's included in an ESS. The typical understanding is that an ESS might include: - Batteries - Inverters - Charge Controllers - BMS (Battery Management System) - Disconnects - OCPD - Monitoring hardware - Enclosures The purpose of 706.2 is to provide a disconnect switch to isolate the *ESS* from the building wiring and parallel operated sources (i.e. utility). A simple AC disconnect on the output of the inverter should suffice in this case. It doesn't need to be a blade-type visible load breaker switch (unless your utility requires it and it can serve double duty). It could be as simple as a circuit breaker enclosure with a circuit breaker. You can get a combination of the two rated at 100A at the big orange store for $109. You probably already have a lockable disconnect on the inverter output anyway. This is one where I would fight rather than comply. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 4:13 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > 🤦🏻‍♂️ ugh these building departments..! I’m very surprised that they’re > requiring the battery conductors to open. I don’t think they understand the > gravity of what they’re saying > > > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 10:49 AM MD Electric & Solar < > mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: > >> David, >> We already have an RSD system installed, it shuts down the tigo's on the >> rooftop and it shuts down the AC output of the inverter, making the home >> safe for firefighters. I can't imagine what an additional battery shut down >> could do for safety, at 48V DC nominal? >> But we must comply with the AHJ........ >> >> I priced (online) an Eaton 100amp 600V DC rated knife switch NEMA 3R, >> $4000.00....ouch >> >> Mike >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 10:41 AM david quattro >> wrote: >> >>> I use the SolArk 12v micro-circuit that triggers RSD. hopefully that’s >>> all they’re looking for, is to kill ESS and solar DC. When using >>> plunger-type, or single gang it’s easy. But when they require a knife >>> blade style switch it’s tricky (with SolArk and Midnite). This is because >>> in order to deenergize ESS/RSD you have to *complete* the micro circuit. >>> Eaton makes a Nema4 switch that can be turned upside down. that >>> puts the red handle on the left side, which is unusual but I’ve done it, >>> and I don’t think it violates any requirement. >>> otherwise you’re stuck using an ice cube relay. Initiating RSD is >>> easy, but getting everything to turn back on is harder. Feel free to call >>> me if you want >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:46 AM MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Wondering if Midnight solar makes something outdoor rated, with a >>>> typical 250ADC breaker, like this: >>>> Outdoor rated, lockable.... >>>> >>>> https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:39 AM jay wrote: >>>> >>>>> Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard >>>>> with instructions on the outside that would work? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar < >>>>> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the >>>>> cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery >>>>> disconnect. >>>>> Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC >>>>> rated knife switch. >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly >>>>>> it does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is >>>>>> correct in the need for one if I understand. >>>>>> >>>>>> jay >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar < >>>>>> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Here is the reference, attached. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code >>>>>>> reference they are referring to. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on >>>>>>> the other side of a wall. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thats as clean an install as they come >>>>>>> >>>>>>> jay >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar < >>>>>>> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Michael D Nelson >>>>>>> > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>>>> > 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>>>> > 707-884-1862 office >>>>>>> > www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>>>> > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> What is the layout of the equipment >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Jay >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> Wrenches, >>>>>>> >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just >>>>>>> told me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type >>>>>>> between my LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some >>>>>>> type of knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any >>>>>>> reference to this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These >>>>>>> batteries happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each >>>>>>> battery has its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a >>>>>>> battery disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills >>>>>>> the solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. >>>>>>> Does anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the >>>>>>> correct code section or what are others doing to comply with this >>>>>>> requirement? >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>>>>>> >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>>>> >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>>>> >>> 707-884-1862 office >>>>>>> >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>>>> >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>>>>> work, try the other: >>>>>>> >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>>>>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>>>>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>>>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>>>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Michael D Nelson >>>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >> Office: 707-412-3181 >> Cell: 707-684-0064 >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jul 29 17:13:32 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 14:13:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f5514d7918ade9d6ec5502f99645c1c@sti.net> Things like this do happen sometimes. I do not have time for these and know it will not do much good most of the time. Do what the inspector (bozo) wants and fix it after he is gone. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [6]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [7] [6] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-07-29 2:02 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hold the phone! I would not let this become a precedent in a > jurisdiction where I work. I'm not a CEC expert, but I'd fight this NEC > question all the way to the state board in Florida. Here, the process > would be to appeal to the Building Official, and if he is as clueless > as the inspector, appeal to the Building Officials Association of > Florida, which issues informal and formal rulings. > > An ESS is a SYSTEM. As defined (NEC 2020), it is "One or more > components assembled together capable of storing energy and providing > electrical energy into the premises wiring system or an electric power > production and distribution network." The inspector is conflating a > battery with an ESS. Technically, the Simpliphi "battery" is really a > battery with a BMS, the combination of which _could_ be an ESS if that > were all there was to the system, but in this context, the battery and > BMS are simply parts of a larger ESS. > A battery and BMS are just _components_ of an ESS. There is a clear > informational note in the NEC Handbook that includes inverters in > what's included in an ESS. The typical understanding is that an ESS > might include: > > * Batteries > * Inverters > * Charge Controllers > * BMS (Battery Management System) > * Disconnects > * OCPD > * Monitoring hardware > * Enclosures > > The purpose of 706.2 is to provide a disconnect switch to isolate the > ESS from the building wiring and parallel operated sources (i.e. > utility). A simple AC disconnect on the output of the inverter should > suffice in this case. It doesn't need to be a blade-type visible load > breaker switch (unless your utility requires it and it can serve double > duty). It could be as simple as a circuit breaker enclosure with a > circuit breaker. You can get a combination of the two rated at 100A at > the big orange store for $109. You probably already have a lockable > disconnect on the inverter output anyway. > > This is one where I would fight rather than comply. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 4:13 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: > 🤦🏻‍♂️ ugh these building departments..! I'm very surprised that > they're requiring the battery conductors to open. I don't think they > understand the gravity of what they're saying > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 10:49 AM MD Electric & Solar > wrote: > > David, > We already have an RSD system installed, it shuts down the tigo's on > the rooftop and it shuts down the AC output of the inverter, making the > home safe for firefighters. I can't imagine what an additional battery > shut down could do for safety, at 48V DC nominal? > But we must comply with the AHJ........ > > I priced (online) an Eaton 100amp 600V DC rated knife switch NEMA 3R, > $4000.00....ouch > > Mike > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 10:41 AM david quattro > wrote: > I use the SolArk 12v micro-circuit that triggers RSD. hopefully that's > all they're looking for, is to kill ESS and solar DC. When using > plunger-type, or single gang it's easy. But when they require a knife > blade style switch it's tricky (with SolArk and Midnite). This is > because in order to deenergize ESS/RSD you have to complete the micro > circuit. > Eaton makes a Nema4 switch that can be turned upside down. that puts > the red handle on the left side, which is unusual but I've done it, and > I don't think it violates any requirement. > otherwise you're stuck using an ice cube relay. Initiating RSD is > easy, but getting everything to turn back on is harder. Feel free to > call me if you want > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:46 AM MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Wondering if Midnight solar makes something outdoor rated, with a > typical 250ADC breaker, like this: > Outdoor rated, lockable.... > https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p > [1] > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:39 AM jay wrote: > Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard with > instructions on the outside that would work? > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar > wrote: > > Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the > cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a > battery disconnect. > Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC > rated knife switch. > Mike > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay wrote: > I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly > it does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is > correct in the need for one if I understand. > > jay > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar > wrote: > > Here is the reference, attached. > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay wrote: I'll > let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code reference > they are referring to. > > The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the > other side of a wall. > > Thats as clean an install as they come > > jay > >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar >> wrote: >> >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com [2] >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [3] >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> What is the layout of the equipment >>> >>> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told >>>> me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type >>>> between my LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned >>>> some type of knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot >>>> find any reference to this requirement anywhere but he insists it is >>>> required. These batteries happen to be simplify or brakes and >>>> Stratton batteries and each battery has its own 80 amp breaker on >>>> the battery and the Solark has a battery disconnect switch built-in. >>>> We do have module level RSD which kills the solar output as well as >>>> the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does anyone have any >>>> experience with this or can they point me to the correct code >>>> section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? >>>> >>>> >>>> Michael D Nelson >>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com [2] >>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [3] >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [4] >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>> try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [4] >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >>> > > -- > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com [2] > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [3] > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com [2] www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [3] -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com [2] www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com [2] www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p [2] http://www.mdelectricsolar.com/ [3] http://www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar [4] http://re-wrenches.org/ [5] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [6] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [7] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 29 17:45:01 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 17:45:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: <2f5514d7918ade9d6ec5502f99645c1c@sti.net> References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> <2f5514d7918ade9d6ec5502f99645c1c@sti.net> Message-ID: The problem I see with just complying is that there is really no practical or cost-effective way to comply. You would have to somehow transition from battery cable to some other cable type, because typical fusible disconnect switch lugs are not going to be rated to accept fine-stranded battery cable, especially in the required size. Bozo is right. I wouldn't let that circus survive in my town. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 5:14 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Things like this do happen sometimes. I do not have time for these and > know it will not do much good most of the time. > > Do what the inspector (bozo) wants and fix it after he is gone. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-07-29 2:02 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hold the phone! I would not let this become a precedent in a jurisdiction > where I work. I'm not a CEC expert, but I'd fight this NEC question all the > way to the state board in Florida. Here, the process would be to appeal to > the Building Official, and if he is as clueless as the inspector, appeal to > the Building Officials Association of Florida, which issues informal and > formal rulings. > > An ESS is a SYSTEM. As defined (NEC 2020), it is "One or more components > assembled together capable of storing energy and providing electrical > energy into the premises wiring system or an electric power production and > distribution network." The inspector is conflating a *battery* with an > *ESS*. Technically, the Simpliphi "battery" is really a battery with a > BMS, the combination of which *could* be an ESS if that were all there > was to the system, but in this context, the battery and BMS are simply > parts of a larger ESS. > A *battery* and BMS are just *components* of an ESS. There is a clear > informational note in the NEC Handbook that includes inverters in what's > included in an ESS. The typical understanding is that an ESS might > include: > > - Batteries > - Inverters > - Charge Controllers > - BMS (Battery Management System) > - Disconnects > - OCPD > - Monitoring hardware > - Enclosures > > > The purpose of 706.2 is to provide a disconnect switch to isolate the > *ESS* from the building wiring and parallel operated sources (i.e. > utility). A simple AC disconnect on the output of the inverter > should suffice in this case. It doesn't need to be a blade-type visible > load breaker switch (unless your utility requires it and it can serve > double duty). It could be as simple as a circuit breaker enclosure with a > circuit breaker. You can get a combination of the two rated at 100A at the > big orange store for $109. You probably already have a lockable disconnect > on the inverter output anyway. > > This is one where I would fight rather than comply. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 4:13 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > 🤦🏻‍♂️ ugh these building departments..! I'm very surprised that they're > requiring the battery conductors to open. I don't think they understand the > gravity of what they're saying > > > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 10:49 AM MD Electric & Solar < > mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: > > David, > We already have an RSD system installed, it shuts down the tigo's on the > rooftop and it shuts down the AC output of the inverter, making the home > safe for firefighters. I can't imagine what an additional battery shut down > could do for safety, at 48V DC nominal? > But we must comply with the AHJ........ > > I priced (online) an Eaton 100amp 600V DC rated knife switch NEMA 3R, > $4000.00....ouch > > Mike > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 10:41 AM david quattro > wrote: > > I use the SolArk 12v micro-circuit that triggers RSD. hopefully that's > all they're looking for, is to kill ESS and solar DC. When using > plunger-type, or single gang it's easy. But when they require a knife > blade style switch it's tricky (with SolArk and Midnite). This is because > in order to deenergize ESS/RSD you have to *complete* the micro circuit. > Eaton makes a Nema4 switch that can be turned upside down. that puts > the red handle on the left side, which is unusual but I've done it, and I > don't think it violates any requirement. > otherwise you're stuck using an ice cube relay. Initiating RSD is > easy, but getting everything to turn back on is harder. Feel free to call > me if you want > > > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:46 AM MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Wondering if Midnight solar makes something outdoor rated, with a typical > 250ADC breaker, like this: > Outdoor rated, lockable.... > > https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:39 AM jay wrote: > > Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard with > instructions on the outside that would work? > > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar < > mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: > > Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the > cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery > disconnect. > Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC > rated knife switch. > Mike > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay wrote: > > I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly it > does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is > correct in the need for one if I understand. > > jay > > > > > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar < > mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: > > Here is the reference, attached. > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay wrote: > > I'll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code reference > they are referring to. > > The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the > other side of a wall. > > Thats as clean an install as they come > > jay > > > > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar > wrote: > > > > > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > > 707-684-0064 mobile > > 707-884-1862 office > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> > >> What is the layout of the equipment > >> > >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? > >> > >> Jay > >> > >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> Wrenches, > >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told > me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my > LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of > knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to > this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries > happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has > its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery > disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the > solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does > anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct > code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? > >>> > >>> > >>> Michael D Nelson > >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > >>> 707-684-0064 mobile > >>> 707-884-1862 office > >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com > >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> > >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump3391 at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 17:46:45 2025 From: tump3391 at gmail.com (Blair May) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 17:46:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sue what happened to the Birdhouse. My e panel has shunt tripped 250A battery breakers that is acquitted outside the building. Tump Blair "Tump" May On Tue, Jul 29, 2025, 1:09 PM Sue Stankevitz via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Midnite does not offer an outdoor rated enclosure for our large breakers > but if only 100a was needed as Mike was asking about our MNPV3 with an > MNEPV100(100a DC breaker) would be outdoor rated and lockable. > > > > Sue Stankevitz > MidNite Solar, Inc. > (360) 403-7207 (XT122) > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 29, 2025 12:46 PM > *To:* jay > *Cc:* MD Electric & Solar ; RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD > > > > Wondering if Midnight solar makes something outdoor rated, with a typical > 250ADC breaker, like this: > > Outdoor rated, lockable.... > > > https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p > > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:39 AM jay wrote: > > Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard with > instructions on the outside that would work? > > > > > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar < > mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the > cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery > disconnect. > > Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC > rated knife switch. > > Mike > > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay wrote: > > I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly it > does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is > correct in the need for one if I understand. > > > > jay > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar < > mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Here is the reference, attached. > > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay wrote: > > I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code reference > they are referring to. > > The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the > other side of a wall. > > Thats as clean an install as they come > > jay > > > > > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar > wrote: > > > > > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > > 707-684-0064 mobile > > 707-884-1862 office > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> > >> What is the layout of the equipment > >> > >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? > >> > >> Jay > >> > >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> Wrenches, > >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told > me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my > LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of > knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to > this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries > happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has > its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery > disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the > solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does > anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct > code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? > >>> > >>> > >>> Michael D Nelson > >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > >>> 707-684-0064 mobile > >>> 707-884-1862 office > >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com > >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> > >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > > > > -- > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > > Office: 707-412-3181 > > Cell: 707-684-0064 > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > > Office: 707-412-3181 > > Cell: 707-684-0064 > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Michael D Nelson > > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > > Office: 707-412-3181 > > Cell: 707-684-0064 > > www.mdelectricsolar.com > > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 18:30:33 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 15:30:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: What I used to specify for exterior disconnect for a battery bank was the MidNite MNLBC-W250. I believe you can connect larger battery cables to input and output bypassing the smaller busbar input. https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=687&productCat_ID=9&sortOrder=1&act=p If rapid shutdown is also required you can substitute the breaker with a remote trip version for the main 250A breaker. It needs a 24VDC signal to trip and is manually reset so it's not ideal, but costs far less than a true DC rated disconnect. However, it seems to me, agreeing with others here, that it should not be required in this case, that the breaker in the inverter should suffice. Brad Bassett On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 2:47 PM Blair May via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Sue what happened to the Birdhouse. My e panel has shunt tripped 250A > battery breakers that is acquitted outside the building. > Tump > > Blair "Tump" May > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025, 1:09 PM Sue Stankevitz via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Midnite does not offer an outdoor rated enclosure for our large breakers >> but if only 100a was needed as Mike was asking about our MNPV3 with an >> MNEPV100(100a DC breaker) would be outdoor rated and lockable. >> >> >> >> Sue Stankevitz >> MidNite Solar, Inc. >> (360) 403-7207 (XT122) >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 29, 2025 12:46 PM >> *To:* jay >> *Cc:* MD Electric & Solar ; RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD >> >> >> >> Wondering if Midnight solar makes something outdoor rated, with a typical >> 250ADC breaker, like this: >> >> Outdoor rated, lockable.... >> >> >> https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:39 AM jay wrote: >> >> Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard with >> instructions on the outside that would work? >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar < >> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the >> cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery >> disconnect. >> >> Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC >> rated knife switch. >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay wrote: >> >> I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly it >> does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is >> correct in the need for one if I understand. >> >> >> >> jay >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar < >> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> Here is the reference, attached. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay wrote: >> >> I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code >> reference they are referring to. >> >> The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the >> other side of a wall. >> >> Thats as clean an install as they come >> >> jay >> >> >> >> > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > Michael D Nelson >> > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> > 707-684-0064 mobile >> > 707-884-1862 office >> > www.mdelectricsolar.com >> > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> > >> > >> >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> What is the layout of the equipment >> >> >> >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >> >> >> >> Jay >> >> >> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Wrenches, >> >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told >> me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my >> LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of >> knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to >> this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries >> happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has >> its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery >> disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the >> solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does >> anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct >> code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Michael D Nelson >> >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >> >>> 707-884-1862 office >> >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>> >> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >>> List rules & etiquette: >> >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>> >> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >> >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Michael D Nelson >> >> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >> >> Office: 707-412-3181 >> >> Cell: 707-684-0064 >> >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Michael D Nelson >> >> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >> >> Office: 707-412-3181 >> >> Cell: 707-684-0064 >> >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Michael D Nelson >> >> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >> >> Office: 707-412-3181 >> >> Cell: 707-684-0064 >> >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 20:59:29 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 17:59:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you all for your comments. I am going to bat with the Sonoma County building department, and will report back. Mike On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 3:27 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > What I used to specify for exterior disconnect for a battery bank was the > MidNite MNLBC-W250. I believe you can connect larger battery cables to > input and output bypassing the smaller busbar input. > > https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=687&productCat_ID=9&sortOrder=1&act=p > If rapid shutdown is also required you can substitute the breaker with a > remote trip version for the main 250A breaker. It needs a 24VDC signal to > trip and is manually reset so it's not ideal, but costs far less than a > true DC rated disconnect. > > However, it seems to me, agreeing with others here, that it should not be > required in this case, that the breaker in the inverter should suffice. > > Brad Bassett > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 2:47 PM Blair May via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Sue what happened to the Birdhouse. My e panel has shunt tripped 250A >> battery breakers that is acquitted outside the building. >> Tump >> >> Blair "Tump" May >> >> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025, 1:09 PM Sue Stankevitz via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Midnite does not offer an outdoor rated enclosure for our large breakers >>> but if only 100a was needed as Mike was asking about our MNPV3 with an >>> MNEPV100(100a DC breaker) would be outdoor rated and lockable. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sue Stankevitz >>> MidNite Solar, Inc. >>> (360) 403-7207 (XT122) >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>> Behalf Of *MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 29, 2025 12:46 PM >>> *To:* jay >>> *Cc:* MD Electric & Solar ; RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD >>> >>> >>> >>> Wondering if Midnight solar makes something outdoor rated, with a >>> typical 250ADC breaker, like this: >>> >>> Outdoor rated, lockable.... >>> >>> >>> https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:39 AM jay wrote: >>> >>> Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard with >>> instructions on the outside that would work? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar < >>> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the >>> cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery >>> disconnect. >>> >>> Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC >>> rated knife switch. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay wrote: >>> >>> I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly it >>> does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is >>> correct in the need for one if I understand. >>> >>> >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar < >>> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is the reference, attached. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay wrote: >>> >>> I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code >>> reference they are referring to. >>> >>> The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the >>> other side of a wall. >>> >>> Thats as clean an install as they come >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> >>> > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar < >>> mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > Michael D Nelson >>> > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> > 707-684-0064 mobile >>> > 707-884-1862 office >>> > www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> > >>> > >>> >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> What is the layout of the equipment >>> >> >>> >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >>> >> >>> >> Jay >>> >> >>> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told >>> me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my >>> LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of >>> knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to >>> this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries >>> happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has >>> its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery >>> disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the >>> solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does >>> anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct >>> code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>> >>> 707-884-1862 office >>> >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >> >>> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >> List rules & etiquette: >>> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >> >>> >> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> >>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>> >>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>> >>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>> >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> >>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>> >>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>> >>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>> >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> >>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>> >>> Office: 707-412-3181 >>> >>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>> >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 29 23:16:53 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 20:16:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3668b5009f8afa7a9480c44620b5d3f1@mail.gmail.com> Bradley: Is he shunt trip breaker UL rated? If not, it’s not an option. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, July 29, 2025 3:31 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Bradley Bassett *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD What I used to specify for exterior disconnect for a battery bank was the MidNite MNLBC-W250. I believe you can connect larger battery cables to input and output bypassing the smaller busbar input. https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=687&productCat_ID=9&sortOrder=1&act=p If rapid shutdown is also required you can substitute the breaker with a remote trip version for the main 250A breaker. It needs a 24VDC signal to trip and is manually reset so it's not ideal, but costs far less than a true DC rated disconnect. However, it seems to me, agreeing with others here, that it should not be required in this case, that the breaker in the inverter should suffice. Brad Bassett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 29 23:19:08 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 20:19:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> <2f5514d7918ade9d6ec5502f99645c1c@sti.net> Message-ID: <0fe4fcfded8b164929f4aca09408735e@mail.gmail.com> Jason: Fine stranded cables can be used with set screw terminals if you use ferrules. You hint at a broader point: The industry is not providing solutions that the regulators are demanding. Any battery with BMS should have a remote inhibit. Problem solved. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, July 29, 2025 2:45 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD The problem I see with just complying is that there is really no practical or cost-effective way to comply. You would have to somehow transition from battery cable to some other cable type, because typical fusible disconnect switch lugs are not going to be rated to accept fine-stranded battery cable, especially in the required size. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jul 30 01:19:40 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2025 22:19:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD Message-ID: Michael: I feel your pain. There are no solutions that are not expensive and/or cumbersome. I think we need to be careful to not confuse "Rapid Shut Down" with "disconnecting means": RSD is for first responders and the actuator needs to be outside of the building. That is not required by 706 and I don’t imagine this is what the inspector is looking for. Disconnecting means is for servicing and can be anywhere as long as it is line of sight or its location is indicated by signage. If it does not require a tool to open the front cover of the battery cabinet, the breakers on the battery modules are readily accessible. This does not satisfy the requirement to be lockable. If you could contrive a locking mechanism for the Soul-Arc battery breaker you just *might* get the AHJ to allow the inverter breaker to be considered the disconnecting means. This would depend on if the inspector is willing to compromise. I know this would mean modifying the dead front. I would replace the cheesy plastic dead-front with a 1/4" thick Plexiglas. Rivet on a locking, sliding bolt and you have created a lock-out. See below: [image: cid:image002.jpg at 01DC00D2.C8C86260] I know it’s a long shot… William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2025 7:44 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: MDElectricSolar Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD Wrenches, I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 52926 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Sue at midnitesolar.com Wed Jul 30 07:26:58 2025 From: Sue at midnitesolar.com (Sue Stankevitz) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2025 11:26:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> Message-ID: The Birdhouse was designed to meet NEC 2014 string level rapid shutdown standards. As the industry moved on to modular level requirements demand for it dropped and it was discontinued. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DC0123.54857DB0] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Blair May via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2025 5:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Blair May Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD Sue what happened to the Birdhouse. My e panel has shunt tripped 250A battery breakers that is acquitted outside the building. Tump Blair "Tump" May On Tue, Jul 29, 2025, 1:09 PM Sue Stankevitz via RE-wrenches > wrote: Midnite does not offer an outdoor rated enclosure for our large breakers but if only 100a was needed as Mike was asking about our MNPV3 with an MNEPV100(100a DC breaker) would be outdoor rated and lockable. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DC0123.54857DB0] From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2025 12:46 PM To: jay > Cc: MD Electric & Solar >; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD Wondering if Midnight solar makes something outdoor rated, with a typical 250ADC breaker, like this: Outdoor rated, lockable.... https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=5&act=p On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:39 AM jay > wrote: Maybe if you left the key on a chain to open the door, and placard with instructions on the outside that would work? On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:23 AM, MD Electric & Solar > wrote: Correct, it does not have an external disconnect, but if you open the cover, each battery has it's own disconnect and the Sol-Ark has a battery disconnect. Looks like I'm in the market for a 100 amp rated outdoor, lockable DC rated knife switch. Mike On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 9:16 AM jay > wrote: I had to look up that battery enclosure and if I understand correctly it does not have an external breaker/disconnect so yes the inspector is correct in the need for one if I understand. jay On Jul 29, 2025, at 10:09 AM, MD Electric & Solar > wrote: Here is the reference, attached. On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 8:49 AM jay > wrote: I’ll let the code experts chime in, but I would ask for the code reference they are referring to. The only one I can think of has to do with if the batteries are on the other side of a wall. Thats as clean an install as they come jay > On Jul 29, 2025, at 9:43 AM, MDElectricSolar > wrote: > > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > >> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:06 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> What is the layout of the equipment >> >> Are the batteries next to and therefore in sight of the inverter? >> >> Jay >> >>> On Jul 29, 2025, at 8:44 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> I have a building inspector in my county of Sonoma who has just told me that we need to install a rapid shutdown switch of some type between my LFZ battery bank and my Solark 15k inverter. He mentioned some type of knife switch within 5 feet of the equipment. I cannot find any reference to this requirement anywhere but he insists it is required. These batteries happen to be simplify or brakes and Stratton batteries and each battery has its own 80 amp breaker on the battery and the Solark has a battery disconnect switch built-in. We do have module level RSD which kills the solar output as well as the inverter output when the button is pushed. Does anyone have any experience with this or can they point me to the correct code section or what are others doing to comply with this requirement? >>> >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>> 707-884-1862 office >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 09:01:36 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2025 07:01:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D1F83C2-6CB5-47E6-9EF6-62B2B4459A9F@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IG_ECM_2024-02.png Type: image/png Size: 614094 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 30 15:19:39 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2025 15:19:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: <0fe4fcfded8b164929f4aca09408735e@mail.gmail.com> References: <05CFACE3-0869-42DD-87F1-C032B481E932@gmail.com> <052828E5-B480-46A6-8873-4AAC5B717205@gmail.com> <27ACA7B3-3456-4AEC-AC4E-36987F073DF5@gmail.com> <2f5514d7918ade9d6ec5502f99645c1c@sti.net> <0fe4fcfded8b164929f4aca09408735e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: True, but a suitable DC rated disconnect switch with large enough terminals is going to be very expensive. The whole thing boils down to the definition of an ESS. Getting the inspector to realize that the 706.2 disconnect is not required to be a* battery* disconnect is key here. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 11:38 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason: > > > > Fine stranded cables can be used with set screw terminals if you use > ferrules. > > > > You hint at a broader point: The industry is not providing solutions that > the regulators are demanding. Any battery with BMS should have a remote > inhibit. Problem solved. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 29, 2025 2:45 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD > > > > The problem I see with just complying is that there is really no practical > or cost-effective way to comply. You would have to somehow transition from > battery cable to some other cable type, because typical fusible disconnect > switch lugs are not going to be rated to accept > fine-stranded battery cable, especially in the required size. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 30 15:46:56 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2025 15:46:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: <01AF0B1C-57AC-4609-BB81-35A429F6A3AA@gmail.com> References: <01AF0B1C-57AC-4609-BB81-35A429F6A3AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Whew! That is a relief. Good for you for taking it to the next level. These inspectors can't keep claiming that the "industry is new." They need to get with the times! Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Jul 30, 2025 at 3:33 PM MDElectricSolar wrote: > I emailed and eventually spoke with the building inspector supervisor and > got him to agree that what they're looking for is an AC disconnect, within > sight of the ESS which disconnects and locks open any connection to the > house. He was going to reiterate to his inspectors that it is not between > the battery and the inverter. > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Jul 30, 2025, at 12:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > True, but a suitable DC rated disconnect switch with large enough > terminals is going to be very expensive. > > The whole thing boils down to the definition of an ESS. Getting the > inspector to realize that the 706.2 disconnect is not required to be a* > battery* disconnect is key here. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 11:38 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason: >> >> >> >> Fine stranded cables can be used with set screw terminals if you use >> ferrules. >> >> >> >> You hint at a broader point: The industry is not providing solutions >> that the regulators are demanding. Any battery with BMS should have a >> remote inhibit. Problem solved. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 29, 2025 2:45 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD >> >> >> >> The problem I see with just complying is that there is really no >> practical or cost-effective way to comply. You would have to somehow >> transition from battery cable to some other cable type, because typical >> fusible disconnect switch lugs are not going to be rated to accept >> fine-stranded battery cable, especially in the required size. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 15:58:06 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2025 12:58:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 15:32:52 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2025 12:32:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01AF0B1C-57AC-4609-BB81-35A429F6A3AA@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jul 30 21:38:12 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2025 19:38:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: <01AF0B1C-57AC-4609-BB81-35A429F6A3AA@gmail.com> References: <01AF0B1C-57AC-4609-BB81-35A429F6A3AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Jul 31 06:39:44 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2025 06:39:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <788547b3-dc1e-4f5b-871f-dbcb9fdebdaa@entech-engineering.com> Good work all, and to Mr. Nelson for pursuing.  I am in the middle of two battery designs, and I am hoping our inspector doesn't make the same mistake. Now I can show this thread if so. Chris On 7/30/2025 3:58 PM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Yes! Thanks to all of the amazing wrenches who continually share their > vast knowledge and experiences. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > >> On Jul 30, 2025, at 12:47 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> Whew! That is a relief. Good for you for taking it to the next level. >> These inspectors can't keep claiming that the "industry is new." They >> need to get with the times! >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 30, 2025 at 3:33 PM MDElectricSolar >> wrote: >> >> I emailed and eventually spoke with the building inspector >> supervisor and got him to agree that what they're looking for is >> an AC disconnect, within sight of the ESS which disconnects and >> locks open any connection to the house. He was going to reiterate >> to his inspectors that it is not between the battery and the >> inverter. >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> >>> On Jul 30, 2025, at 12:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> True, but a suitable DC rated disconnect switch with large >>> enough terminals is going to be very expensive. >>> >>> The whole thing boils down to the definition of an ESS. Getting >>> the inspector to realize that the 706.2 disconnect is not >>> required to be a*battery* disconnect is key here. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2025 at 11:38 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Jason: >>> >>> Fine stranded cables can be used with set screw terminals if >>> you use ferrules. >>> >>> You hint at a broader point:  The industry is not providing >>> solutions that the regulators are demanding.  Any battery >>> with BMS should have a remote inhibit.  Problem solved. >>> >>> William >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 29, 2025 2:45 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD >>> >>> The problem I see with just complying is that there is >>> really no practical or cost-effective way to comply. You >>> would have to somehow transition from battery cable to some >>> other cable type, because typical fusible disconnect switch >>> lugs are not going to be rated to accept >>> fine-stranded battery cable, especially in the required size. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Aug 1 08:29:13 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 08:29:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hybrid inverter with no battery Message-ID: Other than Sol-Ark, are there other hybrid inverters out there that will work in grid interactive mode without a battery, allowing you to add a battery at a future date? Unless I am missing something, the Midnite, Deye, Lux, etc., do not have this feature. Is it possible that is as simple as a firmware change? I would love to see the AIO with this feature. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Aug 1 08:38:09 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 08:38:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hybrid inverter with no battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fortress Envys also have a no battery option. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Fri, Aug 1, 2025 at 8:30 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Other than Sol-Ark, are there other hybrid inverters out there that will > work in grid interactive mode without a battery, allowing you to add a > battery at a future date? Unless I am missing something, the Midnite, Deye, > Lux, etc., do not have this feature. Is it possible that is as simple as a > firmware change? I would love to see the AIO with this feature. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Aug 1 08:40:47 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 08:40:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hybrid inverter with no battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And Solaredge Home Hub inverters also. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Fri, Aug 1, 2025 at 8:30 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Other than Sol-Ark, are there other hybrid inverters out there that will > work in grid interactive mode without a battery, allowing you to add a > battery at a future date? Unless I am missing something, the Midnite, Deye, > Lux, etc., do not have this feature. Is it possible that is as simple as a > firmware change? I would love to see the AIO with this feature. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 08:53:56 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 06:53:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hybrid inverter with no battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85B25A2A-3AFD-42B9-B2AF-72509FE6861B@gmail.com> Hi Jason If I have the info correct. Deye makes the sol ark. Lux makes the fortress envy and eg4 which are essentially the same unit. Midnite is another brand. > On Aug 1, 2025, at 6:29 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Other than Sol-Ark, are there other hybrid inverters out there that will work in grid interactive mode without a battery, allowing you to add a battery at a future date? Unless I am missing something, the Midnite, Deye, Lux, etc., do not have this feature. Is it possible that is as simple as a firmware change? I would love to see the AIO with this feature. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 08:55:18 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 08:55:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hybrid inverter with no battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SMA has one coming soon. I installed an early version that was not battery ready yet but had the terminals for a battery and programming showing battery setup. John On Fri, Aug 1, 2025 at 8:30 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Other than Sol-Ark, are there other hybrid inverters out there that will > work in grid interactive mode without a battery, allowing you to add a > battery at a future date? Unless I am missing something, the Midnite, Deye, > Lux, etc., do not have this feature. Is it possible that is as simple as a > firmware change? I would love to see the AIO with this feature. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Fri Aug 1 09:09:09 2025 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 07:09:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hybrid inverter with no battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have installed two of the SMA Sunny Boy Smart Energy hybrid inverters but only in a conventional solar-only, grid-tied design without batteries. https://www.sma-america.com/products/hybrid-inverters/sunny-boy-smart-energy There is a separate SMA Backup Select box required for off-grid backup operation and I have not laid eyes on it in person. - Sam [image: OnSite Energy] Sam Haraldson Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Fri Aug 1 09:16:01 2025 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 13:16:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hybrid inverter with no battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Solis - high voltage battery. Best regards. I’m lLlCOGet Outlook fo ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, August 1, 2025 9:09:09 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Sam Haraldson Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hybrid inverter with no battery I have installed two of the SMA Sunny Boy Smart Energy hybrid inverters but only in a conventional solar-only, grid-tied design without batteries. https://www.sma-america.com/products/hybrid-inverters/sunny-boy-smart-energy There is a separate SMA Backup Select box required for off-grid backup operation and I have not laid eyes on it in person. - Sam [OnSite Energy] Sam Haraldson Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Fri Aug 1 09:33:16 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 09:33:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hybrid inverter with no battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Midnite AIO fully supports this. It works as a standard string inverter without batteries. Have many units in the field that replaced dead SMA SunnyBoy inverters with the lower voltage strings. On Fri, Aug 1, 2025 at 8:29 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Other than Sol-Ark, are there other hybrid inverters out there that will > work in grid interactive mode without a battery, allowing you to add a > battery at a future date? Unless I am missing something, the Midnite, Deye, > Lux, etc., do not have this feature. Is it possible that is as simple as a > firmware change? I would love to see the AIO with this feature. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Aug 1 10:20:25 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 10:20:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hybrid inverter with no battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought I read that somewhere, but it is definitely not clear in the manual. This is great news. Is it firmware dependent, or available on all firmware versions? Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Aug 1, 2025, 9:33 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Midnite AIO fully supports this. It works as a standard string inverter > without batteries. Have many units in the field that replaced dead SMA > SunnyBoy inverters with the lower voltage strings. > > On Fri, Aug 1, 2025 at 8:29 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Other than Sol-Ark, are there other hybrid inverters out there that will >> work in grid interactive mode without a battery, allowing you to add a >> battery at a future date? Unless I am missing something, the Midnite, Deye, >> Lux, etc., do not have this feature. Is it possible that is as simple as a >> firmware change? I would love to see the AIO with this feature. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Aug 1 10:45:26 2025 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 14:45:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hybrid inverter with no battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sam - the SMA Backup Select is available for order from Authorized Distributors, but has not begun shipping (will likely be closer to Q4). Should be well under $1000. Sunny Boy Smart Energy had the Backup Secure (old SPS) function to provide 120Vac power to dedicated outlet(s), requires manual operation with dedicated switch. Can use Backup Secure with or without battery connected to inverter, up to 1,920W. Can also use with rapid shutdown on array, requires SMA Backup Start card accessory 9installs inside inverter) in that case. The new SMA Backup Select is an accessory that is an MID with included backed up loads panel. Still only 120Vac power in an outage, but automatic switching and powers up to 7 circuits in house (no need to move plugs). Also can operate with or without battery, with or without rapid shutdown, up to 3,840W for 3.8-7.7kW SBSE inverter, up to 5,760W for the 9.6/11.5kW SBSE models. Datasheet: https://files.sma.de/downloads/BU-SLCT-US-50-DS-en_us-11.pdf Installation Manual: https://files.sma.de/downloads/SMABackupSelect-IA-en-10.pdf SMA Backup Home (full power of inverter in outage, 240Vac backed up loads) is likely not going to be available this year unfortunately. Best regards - Mike Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America +1 916 918 9412 SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings [cid:image001.jpg at 01DC02BF.AA7F70C0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, August 1, 2025 7:09 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Sam Haraldson Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hybrid inverter with no battery I have installed two of the SMA Sunny Boy Smart Energy hybrid inverters but only in a conventional solar-only, grid-tied design without batteries. https://www.sma-america.com/products/hybrid-inverters/sunny-boy-smart-energy There is a separate SMA Backup Select box required for off-grid backup operation and I have not laid eyes on it in person. - Sam [OnSite Energy] Sam Haraldson Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 68542 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 10:57:07 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 08:57:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hybrid inverter with no battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3CB5A520-D7EF-459A-8EAE-2EDC5CB0E85E@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Fri Aug 1 11:20:31 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 11:20:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hybrid inverter with no battery In-Reply-To: <3CB5A520-D7EF-459A-8EAE-2EDC5CB0E85E@gmail.com> References: <3CB5A520-D7EF-459A-8EAE-2EDC5CB0E85E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ill try to find a block diagram to show the design and trade-offs of solar AIO inverters , particularly when it comes to integrating grid, generator, and PV charging into an All-In-One (AIO) system. The high-voltage DC bus that all current Asian made units use simplifies the design and reduces costs, but it does come with limitations when it comes to supporting multiple power sources simultaneously and managing charging / MPPT effectively. SolArk changed the game by marketing inverters with a higher daytime rating (like the 15K inverter for daytime, despite being a 12K inverter at night). That’s a clever marketing move to align with the fact that inverters can directly convert the high voltage DC to AC adding extra Output power. It's my view that an isolated MPPT and inverter design for off-grid or net-zero systems would, in theory, allow for more flexibility in managing the power sources, *but the tradeoff is cost.* It’s a delicate balance between performance and price. Many customers prioritize initial costs over long-term efficiency or flexibility, which is why high-voltage DC bus systems are more popular—because they are cheaper to build and scale, despite their limitations. That combined with the fact that no one is currently building an AIO that uses isolated power sections. On Fri, Aug 1, 2025 at 10:58 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Does anyone have or know where to find an explanation of how the all in > ones work? > > Like how does the CC work, battery charger etc. flow chart of the > electrons. > > It’s still pretty mysterious to me and I’d like to know more > > Jay > > On Aug 1, 2025, at 8:46 AM, Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Sam – the SMA Backup Select is available for order from Authorized > Distributors, but has not begun shipping (will likely be closer to Q4). > Should be well under $1000. > > > > Sunny Boy Smart Energy had the Backup Secure (old SPS) function to provide > 120Vac power to dedicated outlet(s), requires manual operation with > dedicated switch. > > Can use Backup Secure with or without battery connected to inverter, up to > 1,920W. Can also use with rapid shutdown on array, requires SMA Backup > Start card accessory 9installs inside inverter) in that case. > > > > The new SMA Backup Select is an accessory that is an MID with included > backed up loads panel. Still only 120Vac power in an outage, but automatic > switching and powers up to 7 circuits in house (no need to move plugs). > Also can operate with or without battery, with or without rapid shutdown, > up to 3,840W for 3.8-7.7kW SBSE inverter, up to 5,760W for the 9.6/11.5kW > SBSE models. > > Datasheet: https://files.sma.de/downloads/BU-SLCT-US-50-DS-en_us-11.pdf > > Installation Manual: > https://files.sma.de/downloads/SMABackupSelect-IA-en-10.pdf > > > > SMA Backup Home (full power of inverter in outage, 240Vac backed up loads) > is likely not going to be available this year unfortunately. > > > > Best regards – > > Mike > > > > > *Michael Mahon* (he/him) > Solar Academy Manager | SMA America > > +1 916 918 9412 > SMA America | Solar Academy > | TechTip Channel > > | Upcoming Academy Trainings > > > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or > any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, August 1, 2025 7:09 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Sam Haraldson > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Hybrid inverter with no battery > > > > I have installed two of the SMA Sunny Boy Smart Energy hybrid inverters > but only in a conventional solar-only, grid-tied design without batteries. > > > > > https://www.sma-america.com/products/hybrid-inverters/sunny-boy-smart-energy > > > > There is a separate SMA Backup Select box required for off-grid backup > operation and I have not laid eyes on it in person. > > > > - Sam > > > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > *Sam Haraldson* > > Operations Specialist > > (406) 551-6135 > > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > > [image: B Corporation] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Fri Aug 1 16:14:27 2025 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 16:14:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hybrid inverter with no battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F448F72-A972-4FBA-8FB0-02CE95401197@sunwindpowerinc.com> Fronius finally released the Gen24 units in the USA which allows GT now battery later. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified  On Aug 1, 2025, at 4:03 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: Re: Hybrid inverter with no battery -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2022 Logo Blue Tagline 2x no phone - small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23571 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Seal.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18157 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Aug 1 19:19:53 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 16:19:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD Message-ID: <4f40db8b2e4a47a0e04f1e35aeae7880@mail.gmail.com> Michael/Wrenches: I am glad to hear this was resolved. I don’t think this is the last we will hear about this issue. Whether you are calling the system an “ESS” or a “battery”, disconnecting means are usually required. This is specified in Section 480 for batteries and Section 706 for ESS. The proliferation of stationary batteries in our world is new and building officials and integrators are still learning the rules. Any building inspector or plan checker could stand their ground on this issue and insist a disconnect be installed. A high-current, load-break DC disconnect is not a simple or inexpensive item. My contracts have a clause that states if additional requirements are presented by a regulating agency the client is required to pay for the work to provide compliance. This is meant to cover additional permitting work or installation of equipment required by new regulations. This means I don’t get hurt complying-- the customer does. Added costs just make it harder to install these systems that are beneficial to the user and the environment. As is often the case, the industry is behind the curve with this issue: BMS-equipped battery systems should provide a contact-closure-triggered inhibit function. If the BMS has an on/off button it should be able to retrofit it with a remote trigger for that function. Similarly, manufacturers of BOS equipment could provide a lockout ring on the battery breaker that should satisfy the requirement. I hope the 250 amp shunt-trip breaker can acquire listing soon. Know that any changes in listed systems require a lot of expensive testing but if disconnecting means are added to any future update that requires testing anyways, that cost is absorbed in the process. William Miller PS: In my opinion it was a mistake to call this an “RSD” issue. Rapid Shutdown is a specific term associated with PV only in Section 690.12. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* MDElectricSolar [mailto:mdelectricsolar at gmail.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, July 30, 2025 12:33 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* william at millersolar.com; Jason Szumlanski; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery RSD I emailed and eventually spoke with the building inspector supervisor and got him to agree that what they're looking for is an AC disconnect, within sight of the ESS which disconnects and locks open any connection to the house. He was going to reiterate to his inspectors that it is not between the battery and the inverter. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Aug 2 11:29:09 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2025 15:29:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power Message-ID: Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just died.? I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is OUTBACK Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 2 12:15:13 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2025 12:15:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The question I have is, if they come back, would you trust them again? It would take a lot to convince me. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just > died.? > I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is > OUTBACK > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Sat Aug 2 13:54:30 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2025 13:54:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS and Calculated Load in Texas Message-ID: Hi all, I’m finding out that some jurisdictions in Texas are requiring ESS output to be equal to or greater than the calculated load of a dwelling. For example, if backing up the whole home, and the service load is calculated at 150A, the ESS would require to continuously output 150A OR EMS is required to bring the calculated load to or below that of the ESS. AHJ’s in a few areas of Texas are dying on this hill and to actually meet the calculated load, systems would need to be significantly larger than needed. I know that previous versions of 706 (specifically NEC 2017) could lead one to argue this point, but Texas had adopted NEC 2023, and it’s only article 710 that indicates a system operating in isolation of the grid should has sufficient output to supply load to the largest backed up load. Has anyone run into this issue? And if so, what have people been doing to either meet these outdated requirements or successfully push back? Thanks! Chris Sparadeo VT Master Electrician # EM 08220 C_802-369-4458 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Aug 2 14:00:37 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2025 12:00:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75EBF6A1-CD97-4E08-BFA1-944DCE508EFB@gmail.com> Zonna energy claims to have them in stock. > On Aug 2, 2025, at 10:15 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > The question I have is, if they come back, would you trust them again? It would take a lot to convince me. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just died.? >> I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is OUTBACK >> Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 2 14:17:39 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2025 14:17:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS and Calculated Load in Texas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We are still on NEC 2020, but I had this issue with a jurisdiction here recently, and I am just going to cut and paste my winning argument here for your benefit. Take from it whatever you think might help. My permit was issued less than an hour after sending this. -------- Dear [Insert Misinformed Plan Reviewer Name Here], I think you are still misinterpreting the scope of Article 702. This is a common issue that was cleared up in the 2023 language, where they removed the phrase you are referring to after it caused mass confusion in the 2020 version. Here is why Article 702 does not apply (and others do): *(all bold, italic, and underlined emphasis below is added by me)* The system we are installing is connected in parallel with the utility source, which is covered by Article 705, *Interconnected *Electric Power Production Sources. Section 705.2 defines a Microgrid-Interconnect Device, which in this case is the Enphase System Controller. If you look at the last paragraph of Section 705.40, Loss of Primary Source, an interconnected source is permitted to operate in *island mode* when the primary source is lost. Head over to Section 710.1 where the scope for Stand-alone Systems is defined. This is the Article where island mode is discussed. That is why the governing section for this installation with respect to loads is 710.15(A), which allows for an *islanded* system to have less capacity than the calculated load. Article 702 does not apply here as that covers standby systems, and this is not a standby system. This is an islandable interconnected power source. A standby system is one that does not function in an interactive manner with the utility grid. The reason storage batteries were added to this section is that you *can* have storage batteries that are *not* capable of interacting with the utility grid, but *do* supply standby power, as is the case of an Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS). This would also be the case if you have batteries with a multimode inverter with an integrated transfer switch that disconnects from the grid during an outage to supply selected loads, but does not "sell" power to the grid. That type of backup system *would* need to comply with Article 702 because it is not an interconnected power source. It is simply a load with respect to the primary power source (utility). By the way, side note... Enphase also offers a Sunlight Backup Only system, which uses microinverters with the same System Controller, but no battery whatsoever. It only provides power during the day to the extent that there is enough solar irradiance available to loads. This is a perfect example of why Article 710 rules in the case of an islanded interconnected system. It is not a standby system. The solar power supply is variable, necessitating the system to function at a capacity that is less than the connected load. A microgrid is a very different system than a standby system. A microgrid can be comprised of various sources of power, which can include utility, batteries, solar, generators, and others. The major distinction between Articles 705 and 702 is the Microgrid Interconnect Device. Article 702 relies upon a transfer mechanism with no interactive component. I hope that clears it up. We code nerds in the industry saw this coming, but it is pretty clear once you make the distinction between an islanded interactive system versus a standby system. Article 710 is small, but mighty! -------------- Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 1:56 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > I’m finding out that some jurisdictions in Texas are requiring ESS output > to be equal to or greater than the calculated load of a dwelling. For > example, if backing up the whole home, and the service load is calculated > at 150A, the ESS would require to continuously output 150A OR EMS is > required to bring the calculated load to or below that of the ESS. AHJ’s in > a few areas of Texas are dying on this hill and to actually meet the > calculated load, systems would need to be significantly larger than needed. > > I know that previous versions of 706 (specifically NEC 2017) could lead > one to argue this point, but Texas had adopted NEC 2023, and it’s only > article 710 that indicates a system operating in isolation of the grid > should has sufficient output to supply load to the largest backed up load. > > Has anyone run into this issue? And if so, what have people been doing to > either meet these outdated requirements or successfully push back? > > Thanks! > > > Chris Sparadeo > > VT Master Electrician # EM 08220 > C_802-369-4458 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat Aug 2 14:51:41 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2025 13:51:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65C4C53D-C79E-435B-A924-8B10CAA8C7B1@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Aug 2 16:22:54 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2025 14:22:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: <65C4C53D-C79E-435B-A924-8B10CAA8C7B1@mavericksolar.com> References: <65C4C53D-C79E-435B-A924-8B10CAA8C7B1@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <2186C0A9-7885-489F-AA4E-CFFD062B0CA7@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Aug 2 23:55:24 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2025 20:55:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Problems with my local building department. Message-ID: Friends: I apologize but I have occasionally whined here about permitting problems. When I have problems that may require repeating my case over and over, I try to make the time to build a web page. This way I can guide someone to the page and they have all of the facts at hand. I have been meaning to create an overall background and index page for the many problems I have with one specific department. Unfortunately it is the jurisdiction in which most of my projects are permitted. Here is a link to that page. I hope it may provide some amusement or inspiration to fight your own righteous battles. If anyone has comments, they are welcome. The latest permitting problem has proven to be intractable. I am shopping for legal representation. This pursuit of justice is a way I can help myself and fellow local contractors. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 13:42:13 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2025 10:42:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Problems with my local building department. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Aug 4 13:47:04 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2025 10:47:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS and Calculated Load in Texas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chris - I've attended a few meetings over the last couple of years discussing this point in preparation for adoption of the 2023 NEC in CA (which is going to be January 2026) - of course there are jurisdictions that have already adopted the 2023 NEC, and it sounds like you're in one of them. Here are some notes: 1. 2023 NEC 710.1 removes ESS that operate both connected to the grid and in island mode from the scope. The intended section that applies to grid connected ESS with a MID is 702 Optional Standby Systems. I think that Jason's argument for following 710 is good, but my understanding from several experts is that the actual NEC intention is for us to follow 702. 2. 2023 702.4(A)(2)(b) allows systems with Energy Management Systems (EMS) "that will automatically manage the connected load" to "have a capacity sufficient to supply the maximum load that will be connected by the EMS." This would allow the largest load method that we have been used to, as long as there is an EMS that will either shed loads or manage the system to alert the owner to reduce loads. 3. Some equipment might have the UL 916 Energy Management Equipment listing which you could point out to the AHJ. Other equipment might have load control capability. The 2026 NEC 702 Optional Standby Systems draft is as seen here and has a new multimode inverter based system section: [image: image.png] It's definitely confusing! August On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:18 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We are still on NEC 2020, but I had this issue with a jurisdiction here > recently, and I am just going to cut and paste my winning argument here for > your benefit. Take from it whatever you think might help. My permit was > issued less than an hour after sending this. > > -------- > > Dear [Insert Misinformed Plan Reviewer Name Here], > > I think you are still misinterpreting the scope of Article 702. This is a > common issue that was cleared up in the 2023 language, where they removed > the phrase you are referring to after it caused mass confusion in the 2020 > version. Here is why Article 702 does not apply (and others do): > > *(all bold, italic, and underlined emphasis below is added by me)* > > The system we are installing is connected in parallel with the utility > source, which is covered by Article 705, *Interconnected *Electric Power > Production Sources. Section 705.2 defines a Microgrid-Interconnect Device, > which in this case is the Enphase System Controller. If you look at the > last paragraph of Section 705.40, Loss of Primary Source, an interconnected > source is permitted to operate in *island mode* when the primary source > is lost. Head over to Section 710.1 where the scope for Stand-alone Systems > is defined. This is the Article where island mode is discussed. That is why > the governing section for this installation with respect to loads is > 710.15(A), which allows for an *islanded* system to have less capacity > than the calculated load. > > Article 702 does not apply here as that covers standby systems, and this > is not a standby system. This is an islandable interconnected power source. > A standby system is one that does not function in an interactive manner > with the utility grid. The reason storage batteries were added to this > section is that you *can* have storage batteries that are *not* capable > of interacting with the utility grid, but *do* supply standby power, as > is the case of an Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS). This would also be > the case if you have batteries with a multimode inverter with an integrated > transfer switch that disconnects from the grid during an outage to supply > selected loads, but does not "sell" power to the grid. That type of backup > system *would* need to comply with Article 702 because it is not an > interconnected power source. It is simply a load with respect to the > primary power source (utility). > > By the way, side note... Enphase also offers a Sunlight Backup Only > system, which uses microinverters with the same System Controller, but no > battery whatsoever. It only provides power during the day to the extent > that there is enough solar irradiance available to loads. This is a perfect > example of why Article 710 rules in the case of an islanded interconnected > system. It is not a standby system. The solar power supply is variable, > necessitating the system to function at a capacity that is less than the > connected load. A microgrid is a very different system than a standby > system. A microgrid can be comprised of various sources of power, which can > include utility, batteries, solar, generators, and others. The major > distinction between Articles 705 and 702 is the Microgrid Interconnect > Device. Article 702 relies upon a transfer mechanism with no interactive > component. > > I hope that clears it up. We code nerds in the industry saw this coming, > but it is pretty clear once you make the distinction between an islanded > interactive system versus a standby system. > > Article 710 is small, but mighty! > > -------------- > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 1:56 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I’m finding out that some jurisdictions in Texas are requiring ESS output >> to be equal to or greater than the calculated load of a dwelling. For >> example, if backing up the whole home, and the service load is calculated >> at 150A, the ESS would require to continuously output 150A OR EMS is >> required to bring the calculated load to or below that of the ESS. AHJ’s in >> a few areas of Texas are dying on this hill and to actually meet the >> calculated load, systems would need to be significantly larger than needed. >> >> I know that previous versions of 706 (specifically NEC 2017) could lead >> one to argue this point, but Texas had adopted NEC 2023, and it’s only >> article 710 that indicates a system operating in isolation of the grid >> should has sufficient output to supply load to the largest backed up load. >> >> Has anyone run into this issue? And if so, what have people been doing to >> either meet these outdated requirements or successfully push back? >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> VT Master Electrician # EM 08220 >> C_802-369-4458 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 193027 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Aug 4 14:19:59 2025 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2025 14:19:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: <2186C0A9-7885-489F-AA4E-CFFD062B0CA7@gmail.com> References: <65C4C53D-C79E-435B-A924-8B10CAA8C7B1@mavericksolar.com> <2186C0A9-7885-489F-AA4E-CFFD062B0CA7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Who is James ( I assume a partner of Signature Solar) and what is his background? Christopher On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 4:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I checked on a few websites and some do have some items. > > I wonder if they bought it for the military contracts and the retail they > don’t really care about. > > Because EG4 and signature solar and big battery all know how to market and > sell and make new good products. > > One thing I heard was they bought it to sell lithium batteries to legacy > Outback people. I guess that they would make some changes to the mate to > communicate with their batteries. Which made sense maybe? > > Hopefully someone will spill the info at somepoint because it’s weird > > I could see myself buying any OB products as replacement maybe but for a > new project, seems unlikely. > > > > On Aug 2, 2025, at 12:52 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I do wonder what the real reason is that James bought outback and he also > invented flex boss and grid boss. The Outback transition has languished > uninformed to Wrenches and even to the DIY community. > > Just like the Gudgel boys, James has also shaped the industry in the new > transition to the next era. > > After 20 years in the solar/battery business we built a homestead from the > ground up in 2017 and the main inverter was a single Radian at the house > and the outbuildings all had used XW inverters. I always thought I’d switch > them to Radian One of the XWs died after over tens years of service. I > replaced it with a Fortress Envy 12k. I guess if I have another failure > here, that’s what I’ll get. > > Always open to customers wishes and have installed just about every > inverter that’s ever been made installed from Tucson to Tucumcari ;-) but > mostly in Texas. But, I’m Willin’ to work on the next best thing. > > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Aug 2, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > The question I have is, if they come back, would you trust them again? It > would take a lot to convince me. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just >> died.? >> I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is >> OUTBACK >> Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Aug 4 14:39:25 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2025 13:39:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <975BEC13-20FC-4CB4-8B4F-BE25F8E0BC53@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Aug 4 14:48:33 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2025 11:48:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power Message-ID: <5ed41f741c5f8111fe202660d5bdf28d@mail.gmail.com> Friends: One explanation is possibly that James Showalter wants to quietly remove a well-respected, competing product from the market. William PS: It is more than a bit off-putting that EG4 chose to post a note kissing up to DJT. I’m suddenly way less anxious to give EG4 a try. WM Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Monday, August 4, 2025 11:39 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Maverick Brown; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power James Showalter Founder of EG4 Electronics, Signature Solar and partner in buying Outback from Alpha / Entersys. *linkedin.com * https://eg4electronics.com/meet-james-showalter-founder-of-eg4-electronics/ He ran a solar installation business and then switched gears. That’s about all I know. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On Aug 4, 2025, at 1:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Who is James ( I assume a partner of Signature Solar) and what is his background? Christopher On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 4:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: I checked on a few websites and some do have some items. I wonder if they bought it for the military contracts and the retail they don’t really care about. Because EG4 and signature solar and big battery all know how to market and sell and make new good products. One thing I heard was they bought it to sell lithium batteries to legacy Outback people. I guess that they would make some changes to the mate to communicate with their batteries. Which made sense maybe? Hopefully someone will spill the info at somepoint because it’s weird I could see myself buying any OB products as replacement maybe but for a new project, seems unlikely. On Aug 2, 2025, at 12:52 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: I do wonder what the real reason is that James bought outback and he also invented flex boss and grid boss. The Outback transition has languished uninformed to Wrenches and even to the DIY community. Just like the Gudgel boys, James has also shaped the industry in the new transition to the next era. After 20 years in the solar/battery business we built a homestead from the ground up in 2017 and the main inverter was a single Radian at the house and the outbuildings all had used XW inverters. I always thought I’d switch them to Radian One of the XWs died after over tens years of service. I replaced it with a Fortress Envy 12k. I guess if I have another failure here, that’s what I’ll get. Always open to customers wishes and have installed just about every inverter that’s ever been made installed from Tucson to Tucumcari ;-) but mostly in Texas. But, I’m Willin’ to work on the next best thing. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On Aug 2, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  The question I have is, if they come back, would you trust them again? It would take a lot to convince me. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just died.? I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is OUTBACK Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s [image: https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4xwQObc1lE4m-NGBGV2ONhmIo5vEAZs2lO5NoIACbJsI4fJ_a1hsiFC2biIJSxI90VJ_atMDSuJtjW-] *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com * *[image: https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4ytw2s5T2YLi-11AL2Jyo5Jt6UbbDYElzDl4X0PqflWvs06VON--dPV7x_cgeW3zkEV-fkQc7IhsiwV]* Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 988 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1062 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Aug 4 16:01:03 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2025 16:01:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS and Calculated Load in Texas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have heard this as well. My situation was specific to NEC 2020, and I have not studied 2023 in detail. We have 17 months left before switching here. It's going to come down to what automatically managing the load means. If the microgrid shuts down when the load is too high, there you go - it was "managed." When the load decreases, it starts back up. Just call the entire load a "smart load." Confusing for sure. And quite ridiculous, frankly. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Aug 4, 2025 at 1:47 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi Chris - > > I've attended a few meetings over the last couple of years discussing this > point in preparation for adoption of the 2023 NEC in CA (which is going to > be January 2026) - of course there are jurisdictions that have already > adopted the 2023 NEC, and it sounds like you're in one of them. Here are > some notes: > > > 1. 2023 NEC 710.1 removes ESS that operate both connected to the grid > and in island mode from the scope. The intended section that applies to > grid connected ESS with a MID is 702 Optional Standby Systems. I think that > Jason's argument for following 710 is good, but my understanding from > several experts is that the actual NEC intention is for us to follow 702. > 2. 2023 702.4(A)(2)(b) allows systems with Energy Management Systems > (EMS) "that will automatically manage the connected load" to "have a > capacity sufficient to supply the maximum load that will be connected by > the EMS." This would allow the largest load method that we have been used > to, as long as there is an EMS that will either shed loads or manage the > system to alert the owner to reduce loads. > 3. Some equipment might have the UL 916 Energy Management Equipment > listing which you could point out to the AHJ. Other equipment might have > load control capability. > > The 2026 NEC 702 Optional Standby Systems draft is as seen here and has a > new multimode inverter based system section: > > [image: image.png] > > It's definitely confusing! > > August > > > > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:18 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We are still on NEC 2020, but I had this issue with a jurisdiction here >> recently, and I am just going to cut and paste my winning argument here for >> your benefit. Take from it whatever you think might help. My permit was >> issued less than an hour after sending this. >> >> -------- >> >> Dear [Insert Misinformed Plan Reviewer Name Here], >> >> I think you are still misinterpreting the scope of Article 702. This is a >> common issue that was cleared up in the 2023 language, where they removed >> the phrase you are referring to after it caused mass confusion in the 2020 >> version. Here is why Article 702 does not apply (and others do): >> >> *(all bold, italic, and underlined emphasis below is added by me)* >> >> The system we are installing is connected in parallel with the utility >> source, which is covered by Article 705, *Interconnected *Electric Power >> Production Sources. Section 705.2 defines a Microgrid-Interconnect Device, >> which in this case is the Enphase System Controller. If you look at the >> last paragraph of Section 705.40, Loss of Primary Source, an interconnected >> source is permitted to operate in *island mode* when the primary source >> is lost. Head over to Section 710.1 where the scope for Stand-alone Systems >> is defined. This is the Article where island mode is discussed. That is why >> the governing section for this installation with respect to loads is >> 710.15(A), which allows for an *islanded* system to have less capacity >> than the calculated load. >> >> Article 702 does not apply here as that covers standby systems, and this >> is not a standby system. This is an islandable interconnected power source. >> A standby system is one that does not function in an interactive manner >> with the utility grid. The reason storage batteries were added to this >> section is that you *can* have storage batteries that are *not* capable >> of interacting with the utility grid, but *do* supply standby power, as >> is the case of an Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS). This would also be >> the case if you have batteries with a multimode inverter with an integrated >> transfer switch that disconnects from the grid during an outage to supply >> selected loads, but does not "sell" power to the grid. That type of backup >> system *would* need to comply with Article 702 because it is not an >> interconnected power source. It is simply a load with respect to the >> primary power source (utility). >> >> By the way, side note... Enphase also offers a Sunlight Backup Only >> system, which uses microinverters with the same System Controller, but no >> battery whatsoever. It only provides power during the day to the extent >> that there is enough solar irradiance available to loads. This is a perfect >> example of why Article 710 rules in the case of an islanded interconnected >> system. It is not a standby system. The solar power supply is variable, >> necessitating the system to function at a capacity that is less than the >> connected load. A microgrid is a very different system than a standby >> system. A microgrid can be comprised of various sources of power, which can >> include utility, batteries, solar, generators, and others. The major >> distinction between Articles 705 and 702 is the Microgrid Interconnect >> Device. Article 702 relies upon a transfer mechanism with no interactive >> component. >> >> I hope that clears it up. We code nerds in the industry saw this coming, >> but it is pretty clear once you make the distinction between an islanded >> interactive system versus a standby system. >> >> Article 710 is small, but mighty! >> >> -------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 1:56 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I’m finding out that some jurisdictions in Texas are requiring ESS >>> output to be equal to or greater than the calculated load of a dwelling. >>> For example, if backing up the whole home, and the service load is >>> calculated at 150A, the ESS would require to continuously output 150A OR >>> EMS is required to bring the calculated load to or below that of the ESS. >>> AHJ’s in a few areas of Texas are dying on this hill and to actually meet >>> the calculated load, systems would need to be significantly larger than >>> needed. >>> >>> I know that previous versions of 706 (specifically NEC 2017) could lead >>> one to argue this point, but Texas had adopted NEC 2023, and it’s only >>> article 710 that indicates a system operating in isolation of the grid >>> should has sufficient output to supply load to the largest backed up load. >>> >>> Has anyone run into this issue? And if so, what have people been doing >>> to either meet these outdated requirements or successfully push back? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> >>> Chris Sparadeo >>> >>> VT Master Electrician # EM 08220 >>> C_802-369-4458 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 193027 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Aug 4 16:38:02 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2025 13:38:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS and Calculated Load in Texas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've heard that the conventional fuel generator manufacturers were pushing to keep the full load requirement in the code since that is what generators need to follow if they have an automatic transfer switch. Of course, generators behave differently compared to battery/solar inverters - I believe they have a hard time maintaining proper voltage if they are overloaded? Others might know what happens when you overload a generator, but it isn't too great. A battery inverter will just shut down and allow the owner to make some load changes prior to turning it back on again - not a big deal. We've done hundreds of backup systems now and all in all, I really think that whole-home backup is the best solution for most clients. There is no good reason to insist that a battery backup system be sized to handle the full backup load calculation. Let's hope the 2023 NEC doesn't get AHJs too tripped up. August On Mon, Aug 4, 2025 at 1:01 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I have heard this as well. My situation was specific to NEC 2020, and I > have not studied 2023 in detail. We have 17 months left before switching > here. > > It's going to come down to what automatically managing the load means. If > the microgrid shuts down when the load is too high, there you go - it was > "managed." When the load decreases, it starts back up. Just call the entire > load a "smart load." > > Confusing for sure. And quite ridiculous, frankly. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Mon, Aug 4, 2025 at 1:47 PM August Goers wrote: > >> Hi Chris - >> >> I've attended a few meetings over the last couple of years discussing >> this point in preparation for adoption of the 2023 NEC in CA (which is >> going to be January 2026) - of course there are jurisdictions that have >> already adopted the 2023 NEC, and it sounds like you're in one of them. >> Here are some notes: >> >> >> 1. 2023 NEC 710.1 removes ESS that operate both connected to the grid >> and in island mode from the scope. The intended section that applies to >> grid connected ESS with a MID is 702 Optional Standby Systems. I think that >> Jason's argument for following 710 is good, but my understanding from >> several experts is that the actual NEC intention is for us to follow 702. >> 2. 2023 702.4(A)(2)(b) allows systems with Energy Management Systems >> (EMS) "that will automatically manage the connected load" to "have a >> capacity sufficient to supply the maximum load that will be connected by >> the EMS." This would allow the largest load method that we have been used >> to, as long as there is an EMS that will either shed loads or manage the >> system to alert the owner to reduce loads. >> 3. Some equipment might have the UL 916 Energy Management Equipment >> listing which you could point out to the AHJ. Other equipment might have >> load control capability. >> >> The 2026 NEC 702 Optional Standby Systems draft is as seen here and has a >> new multimode inverter based system section: >> >> [image: image.png] >> >> It's definitely confusing! >> >> August >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:18 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> We are still on NEC 2020, but I had this issue with a jurisdiction here >>> recently, and I am just going to cut and paste my winning argument here for >>> your benefit. Take from it whatever you think might help. My permit was >>> issued less than an hour after sending this. >>> >>> -------- >>> >>> Dear [Insert Misinformed Plan Reviewer Name Here], >>> >>> I think you are still misinterpreting the scope of Article 702. This is >>> a common issue that was cleared up in the 2023 language, where they removed >>> the phrase you are referring to after it caused mass confusion in the 2020 >>> version. Here is why Article 702 does not apply (and others do): >>> >>> *(all bold, italic, and underlined emphasis below is added by me)* >>> >>> The system we are installing is connected in parallel with the utility >>> source, which is covered by Article 705, *Interconnected *Electric >>> Power Production Sources. Section 705.2 defines a Microgrid-Interconnect >>> Device, which in this case is the Enphase System Controller. If you look at >>> the last paragraph of Section 705.40, Loss of Primary Source, an >>> interconnected source is permitted to operate in *island mode* when the >>> primary source is lost. Head over to Section 710.1 where the scope for >>> Stand-alone Systems is defined. This is the Article where island mode is >>> discussed. That is why the governing section for this installation with >>> respect to loads is 710.15(A), which allows for an *islanded* system to >>> have less capacity than the calculated load. >>> >>> Article 702 does not apply here as that covers standby systems, and this >>> is not a standby system. This is an islandable interconnected power source. >>> A standby system is one that does not function in an interactive manner >>> with the utility grid. The reason storage batteries were added to this >>> section is that you *can* have storage batteries that are *not* capable >>> of interacting with the utility grid, but *do* supply standby power, as >>> is the case of an Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS). This would also be >>> the case if you have batteries with a multimode inverter with an integrated >>> transfer switch that disconnects from the grid during an outage to supply >>> selected loads, but does not "sell" power to the grid. That type of backup >>> system *would* need to comply with Article 702 because it is not an >>> interconnected power source. It is simply a load with respect to the >>> primary power source (utility). >>> >>> By the way, side note... Enphase also offers a Sunlight Backup Only >>> system, which uses microinverters with the same System Controller, but no >>> battery whatsoever. It only provides power during the day to the extent >>> that there is enough solar irradiance available to loads. This is a perfect >>> example of why Article 710 rules in the case of an islanded interconnected >>> system. It is not a standby system. The solar power supply is variable, >>> necessitating the system to function at a capacity that is less than the >>> connected load. A microgrid is a very different system than a standby >>> system. A microgrid can be comprised of various sources of power, which can >>> include utility, batteries, solar, generators, and others. The major >>> distinction between Articles 705 and 702 is the Microgrid Interconnect >>> Device. Article 702 relies upon a transfer mechanism with no interactive >>> component. >>> >>> I hope that clears it up. We code nerds in the industry saw this coming, >>> but it is pretty clear once you make the distinction between an islanded >>> interactive system versus a standby system. >>> >>> Article 710 is small, but mighty! >>> >>> -------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 1:56 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I’m finding out that some jurisdictions in Texas are requiring ESS >>>> output to be equal to or greater than the calculated load of a dwelling. >>>> For example, if backing up the whole home, and the service load is >>>> calculated at 150A, the ESS would require to continuously output 150A OR >>>> EMS is required to bring the calculated load to or below that of the ESS. >>>> AHJ’s in a few areas of Texas are dying on this hill and to actually meet >>>> the calculated load, systems would need to be significantly larger than >>>> needed. >>>> >>>> I know that previous versions of 706 (specifically NEC 2017) could lead >>>> one to argue this point, but Texas had adopted NEC 2023, and it’s only >>>> article 710 that indicates a system operating in isolation of the grid >>>> should has sufficient output to supply load to the largest backed up load. >>>> >>>> Has anyone run into this issue? And if so, what have people been doing >>>> to either meet these outdated requirements or successfully push back? >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> >>>> Chris Sparadeo >>>> >>>> VT Master Electrician # EM 08220 >>>> C_802-369-4458 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 193027 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Tue Aug 5 10:38:34 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2025 14:38:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: <5ed41f741c5f8111fe202660d5bdf28d@mail.gmail.com> References: <5ed41f741c5f8111fe202660d5bdf28d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Interesting take but we've seen it before when Enphase went to then-cash strapped Sunpower and said, "hey, let us buy SolarBridge microinverters from you and we'll be your microinverter provider for your AC modules" and then took competitor SolarBridge and threw it in the trash can, never to be seen again. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, August 4, 2025 1:48 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power Friends: One explanation is possibly that James Showalter wants to quietly remove a well-respected, competing product from the market. William PS: It is more than a bit off-putting that EG4 chose to post a note kissing up to DJT. I’m suddenly way less anxious to give EG4 a try. WM Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, August 4, 2025 11:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Maverick Brown; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power James Showalter Founder of EG4 Electronics, Signature Solar and partner in buying Outback from Alpha / Entersys. linkedin.com https://eg4electronics.com/meet-james-showalter-founder-of-eg4-electronics/ He ran a solar installation business and then switched gears. That’s about all I know. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On Aug 4, 2025, at 1:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Who is James ( I assume a partner of Signature Solar) and what is his background? Christopher On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 4:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: I checked on a few websites and some do have some items. I wonder if they bought it for the military contracts and the retail they don’t really care about. Because EG4 and signature solar and big battery all know how to market and sell and make new good products. One thing I heard was they bought it to sell lithium batteries to legacy Outback people. I guess that they would make some changes to the mate to communicate with their batteries. Which made sense maybe? Hopefully someone will spill the info at somepoint because it’s weird I could see myself buying any OB products as replacement maybe but for a new project, seems unlikely. On Aug 2, 2025, at 12:52 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: I do wonder what the real reason is that James bought outback and he also invented flex boss and grid boss. The Outback transition has languished uninformed to Wrenches and even to the DIY community. Just like the Gudgel boys, James has also shaped the industry in the new transition to the next era. After 20 years in the solar/battery business we built a homestead from the ground up in 2017 and the main inverter was a single Radian at the house and the outbuildings all had used XW inverters. I always thought I’d switch them to Radian One of the XWs died after over tens years of service. I replaced it with a Fortress Envy 12k. I guess if I have another failure here, that’s what I’ll get. Always open to customers wishes and have installed just about every inverter that’s ever been made installed from Tucson to Tucumcari ;-) but mostly in Texas. But, I’m Willin’ to work on the next best thing. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On Aug 2, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote:  The question I have is, if they come back, would you trust them again? It would take a lot to convince me. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just died.? I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is OUTBACK Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4xwQObc1lE4m-NGBGV2ONhmIo5vEAZs2lO5NoIACbJsI4fJ_a1hsiFC2biIJSxI90VJ_atMDSuJtjW-] Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4ytw2s5T2YLi-11AL2Jyo5Jt6UbbDYElzDl4X0PqflWvs06VON--dPV7x_cgeW3zkEV-fkQc7IhsiwV] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 988 bytes Desc: image005.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1062 bytes Desc: image006.jpg URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Tue Aug 5 12:30:02 2025 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2025 16:30:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: References: <5ed41f741c5f8111fe202660d5bdf28d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Let us just be clear that the demise of the SolarBridge product was not a loss for the industry. They had the idea, but the stuff inside the box was not particularly good. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2025 7:39 AM To: RE-wrenches ; william at millersolar.com Cc: scot.arey at solarcentex.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power Interesting take but we've seen it before when Enphase went to then-cash strapped Sunpower and said, "hey, let us buy SolarBridge microinverters from you and we'll be your microinverter provider for your AC modules" and then took competitor SolarBridge and threw it in the trash can, never to be seen again. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches > Sent: Monday, August 4, 2025 1:48 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: William Miller > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power Friends: One explanation is possibly that James Showalter wants to quietly remove a well-respected, competing product from the market. William PS: It is more than a bit off-putting that EG4 chose to post a note kissing up to DJT. I’m suddenly way less anxious to give EG4 a try. WM Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, August 4, 2025 11:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Maverick Brown; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power James Showalter Founder of EG4 Electronics, Signature Solar and partner in buying Outback from Alpha / Entersys. linkedin.com https://eg4electronics.com/meet-james-showalter-founder-of-eg4-electronics/ He ran a solar installation business and then switched gears. That’s about all I know. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On Aug 4, 2025, at 1:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Who is James ( I assume a partner of Signature Solar) and what is his background? Christopher On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 4:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: I checked on a few websites and some do have some items. I wonder if they bought it for the military contracts and the retail they don’t really care about. Because EG4 and signature solar and big battery all know how to market and sell and make new good products. One thing I heard was they bought it to sell lithium batteries to legacy Outback people. I guess that they would make some changes to the mate to communicate with their batteries. Which made sense maybe? Hopefully someone will spill the info at somepoint because it’s weird I could see myself buying any OB products as replacement maybe but for a new project, seems unlikely. On Aug 2, 2025, at 12:52 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: I do wonder what the real reason is that James bought outback and he also invented flex boss and grid boss. The Outback transition has languished uninformed to Wrenches and even to the DIY community. Just like the Gudgel boys, James has also shaped the industry in the new transition to the next era. After 20 years in the solar/battery business we built a homestead from the ground up in 2017 and the main inverter was a single Radian at the house and the outbuildings all had used XW inverters. I always thought I’d switch them to Radian One of the XWs died after over tens years of service. I replaced it with a Fortress Envy 12k. I guess if I have another failure here, that’s what I’ll get. Always open to customers wishes and have installed just about every inverter that’s ever been made installed from Tucson to Tucumcari ;-) but mostly in Texas. But, I’m Willin’ to work on the next best thing. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On Aug 2, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote:  The question I have is, if they come back, would you trust them again? It would take a lot to convince me. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just died.? I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is OUTBACK Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4xwQObc1lE4m-NGBGV2ONhmIo5vEAZs2lO5NoIACbJsI4fJ_a1hsiFC2biIJSxI90VJ_atMDSuJtjW-] Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4ytw2s5T2YLi-11AL2Jyo5Jt6UbbDYElzDl4X0PqflWvs06VON--dPV7x_cgeW3zkEV-fkQc7IhsiwV] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 988 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1062 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Aug 5 14:00:58 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2025 11:00:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power Message-ID: <8457a178f06fee122ca46ebe66ce4605@mail.gmail.com> Jason: You raise a good point. Trust is easy to lose and hard to regain. One of the benefits of the Outback acquisition is I have been forced to explore alternatives. I have installed a Soul-Arc (as I call it) in my shop and I am very pleased with it. I have a pallet of 3 Envy 12s ready to install. Maybe it is a good thing that Outback is receding into obscurity. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Saturday, August 2, 2025 9:15 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power The question I have is, if they come back, would you trust them again? It would take a lot to convince me. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just died.? I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is OUTBACK Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Aug 5 14:00:37 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2025 11:00:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: <9D18218C-21BD-48D6-BC37-98A48C844247@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <5ed41f741c5f8111fe202660d5bdf28d@mail.gmail.com> <9D18218C-21BD-48D6-BC37-98A48C844247@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <046fce6114bc9e0e069650bde6784d0a@mail.gmail.com> Jeff: If you know something about the future of Outback, I am sure there is no rule here that prevents you from sharing that information. If you are close to Showalter or his minions, there is certainly no rule here on the wrenches that prevents you from picking up the phone and telling him (them) that they are destroying trust in the brand. It would cost him nothing to put out a press release and explain what his intentions are. It would cost him little to get Optics straightened out. If the new owner really wants to keep Outback vital, those are obvious first steps. Because they were not taken, most of us are highly skeptical about the future of Outback. This list is designed to help us deal with technical issues related to installing and maintaining solar electric equipment. It is absolutely pertinent to discuss here the availability of essential tech support services, or the lack thereof. I favor a looser interpretation of the mission statement wherein we could discuss the future of our industry and the incentives that keep it alive. Unless you are living under a rock you know the current administration is bent on dismantling renewable energy as a whole. My inbox has lit up with thanks from wrenches who did not know EG4 was supporting that effort. Armed with that knowledge, each of us can now vote with our pocket books. So please, what do you know that we don’t? William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jeff Clearwater [mailto:jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com] *Sent:* Monday, August 4, 2025 10:11 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Cc:* RE-wrenches; William Miller *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power Having consulted for EG4 all I can say is you are all way off in your conjectures. James and his team have the industry’s best interests at heart. Anymore is only appropriate to discuss off list. Conjecture without direct knowledge often results in unnecessary harm and projection of our fear rather than useful sense making. I believe the List has ethical standards that we should follow here. May we all work together to continue to build on all the great cooperative work we’ve done to uplift the solar industry over the years. Best Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Since 1996 Sent from my iPhone On Aug 4, 2025, at 11:58 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Friends: One explanation is possibly that James Showalter wants to quietly remove a well-respected, competing product from the market. William PS: It is more than a bit off-putting that EG4 chose to post a note kissing up to DJT. I’m suddenly way less anxious to give EG4 a try. WM Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Monday, August 4, 2025 11:39 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Maverick Brown; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power James Showalter Founder of EG4 Electronics, Signature Solar and partner in buying Outback from Alpha / Entersys. *linkedin.com * https://eg4electronics.com/meet-james-showalter-founder-of-eg4-electronics/ He ran a solar installation business and then switched gears. That’s about all I know. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On Aug 4, 2025, at 1:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Who is James ( I assume a partner of Signature Solar) and what is his background? Christopher On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 4:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: I checked on a few websites and some do have some items. I wonder if they bought it for the military contracts and the retail they don’t really care about. Because EG4 and signature solar and big battery all know how to market and sell and make new good products. One thing I heard was they bought it to sell lithium batteries to legacy Outback people. I guess that they would make some changes to the mate to communicate with their batteries. Which made sense maybe? Hopefully someone will spill the info at somepoint because it’s weird I could see myself buying any OB products as replacement maybe but for a new project, seems unlikely. On Aug 2, 2025, at 12:52 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: I do wonder what the real reason is that James bought outback and he also invented flex boss and grid boss. The Outback transition has languished uninformed to Wrenches and even to the DIY community. Just like the Gudgel boys, James has also shaped the industry in the new transition to the next era. After 20 years in the solar/battery business we built a homestead from the ground up in 2017 and the main inverter was a single Radian at the house and the outbuildings all had used XW inverters. I always thought I’d switch them to Radian One of the XWs died after over tens years of service. I replaced it with a Fortress Envy 12k. I guess if I have another failure here, that’s what I’ll get. Always open to customers wishes and have installed just about every inverter that’s ever been made installed from Tucson to Tucumcari ;-) but mostly in Texas. But, I’m Willin’ to work on the next best thing. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On Aug 2, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  The question I have is, if they come back, would you trust them again? It would take a lot to convince me. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just died.? I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is OUTBACK Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com * ** Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 16:40:55 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 14:40:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: <046fce6114bc9e0e069650bde6784d0a@mail.gmail.com> References: <5ed41f741c5f8111fe202660d5bdf28d@mail.gmail.com> <9D18218C-21BD-48D6-BC37-98A48C844247@villagepowerdesign.com> <046fce6114bc9e0e069650bde6784d0a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I wanted to chime in. I talked with a very reputable wholesaler who’s been around a long time that sells OB. They said they are starting to get equipment. They have a few inverters and BOS in stock. But no official delivery schedule he has or could give me. Yes made in TX. Now what made means I don’t know. Does that mean populating circuit boards or assembling imported parts? And one part is the original company was a partnership between big battery and EG4 ownership and I guess there was some sort of falling out and there is just one owner now. Jay From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Tue Aug 5 01:10:49 2025 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2025 22:10:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: <5ed41f741c5f8111fe202660d5bdf28d@mail.gmail.com> References: <5ed41f741c5f8111fe202660d5bdf28d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9D18218C-21BD-48D6-BC37-98A48C844247@villagepowerdesign.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Aug 7 09:22:57 2025 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 07:22:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: <9D18218C-21BD-48D6-BC37-98A48C844247@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <5ed41f741c5f8111fe202660d5bdf28d@mail.gmail.com> <9D18218C-21BD-48D6-BC37-98A48C844247@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <000c01dc079e$65e97c60$31bc7520$@OasisMontana.com> Jeff: There’s no conjecture about how utterly crappy the ‘service’ is from what used to be Outback. They make promises and underdeliver or just ignore you. The latest for us is promising a new MATE3 (to an elderly customer with health issues) but that was nearly two months ago. Meanwhile, the only EG4 system we’ve sold is terribly noisy – 90 decibels. Fortunately our customer is pretty deaf (but his wife isn’t). Let the buyer and seller beware. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, August 4, 2025 11:11 PM To: william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches Cc: Jeff Clearwater ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power Having consulted for EG4 all I can say is you are all way off in your conjectures. James and his team have the industry’s best interests at heart. Anymore is only appropriate to discuss off list. Conjecture without direct knowledge often results in unnecessary harm and projection of our fear rather than useful sense making. I believe the List has ethical standards that we should follow here. May we all work together to continue to build on all the great cooperative work we’ve done to uplift the solar industry over the years. Best Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Since 1996 Sent from my iPhone On Aug 4, 2025, at 11:58 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Friends: One explanation is possibly that James Showalter wants to quietly remove a well-respected, competing product from the market. William PS: It is more than a bit off-putting that EG4 chose to post a note kissing up to DJT. I’m suddenly way less anxious to give EG4 a try. WM Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, August 4, 2025 11:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Maverick Brown; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power James Showalter Founder of EG4 Electronics, Signature Solar and partner in buying Outback from Alpha / Entersys. linkedin.com https://eg4electronics.com/meet-james-showalter-founder-of-eg4-electronics/ He ran a solar installation business and then switched gears. That’s about all I know. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On Aug 4, 2025, at 1:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Who is James ( I assume a partner of Signature Solar) and what is his background? Christopher On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 4:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: I checked on a few websites and some do have some items. I wonder if they bought it for the military contracts and the retail they don’t really care about. Because EG4 and signature solar and big battery all know how to market and sell and make new good products. One thing I heard was they bought it to sell lithium batteries to legacy Outback people. I guess that they would make some changes to the mate to communicate with their batteries. Which made sense maybe? Hopefully someone will spill the info at somepoint because it’s weird I could see myself buying any OB products as replacement maybe but for a new project, seems unlikely. On Aug 2, 2025, at 12:52 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: I do wonder what the real reason is that James bought outback and he also invented flex boss and grid boss. The Outback transition has languished uninformed to Wrenches and even to the DIY community. Just like the Gudgel boys, James has also shaped the industry in the new transition to the next era. After 20 years in the solar/battery business we built a homestead from the ground up in 2017 and the main inverter was a single Radian at the house and the outbuildings all had used XW inverters. I always thought I’d switch them to Radian One of the XWs died after over tens years of service. I replaced it with a Fortress Envy 12k. I guess if I have another failure here, that’s what I’ll get. Always open to customers wishes and have installed just about every inverter that’s ever been made installed from Tucson to Tucumcari ;-) but mostly in Texas. But, I’m Willin’ to work on the next best thing. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On Aug 2, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote:  The question I have is, if they come back, would you trust them again? It would take a lot to convince me. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just died.? I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is OUTBACK Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Thu Aug 7 09:56:57 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 06:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: <000c01dc079e$65e97c60$31bc7520$@OasisMontana.com> References: <5ed41f741c5f8111fe202660d5bdf28d@mail.gmail.com> <9D18218C-21BD-48D6-BC37-98A48C844247@villagepowerdesign.com> <000c01dc079e$65e97c60$31bc7520$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <1754575017.581723898@webmail.finestplanet.com> It is also important (as Chris points out) to notice if the "walk" matches the "talk". This is not "conjecture", this is actual experience! A great example of this is lack of collaborative information towards the wrenches & users in the OB forum. FFS I had to get info on whether they were actually aware of and working on the multiple recent OpticsRE/ Mate3s problems from facebook and post that to their own users forum! How is this an example of "having the industries best interests at heart"??? This behavior causes the speculation we are justifiably seeing and removes any trust we have in the new owner(s), which of course dissuades wrenches from recommending/ building OB based systems for customers. Regardless of the rhetoric, once trust is violated, it is very difficult to rebuild. And I'm sorry, but if the new head of Outback/ EG4 is "kissing the ring"... that says a whole lot about his ethics, morals and business practices. Todd On Thursday, August 7, 2025 6:22am, "Chris Daum via RE-wrenches" said: Jeff: There’s no conjecture about how utterly crappy the ‘service’ is from what used to be Outback. They make promises and underdeliver or just ignore you. The latest for us is promising a new MATE3 (to an elderly customer with health issues) but that was nearly two months ago. Meanwhile, the only EG4 system we’ve sold is terribly noisy – 90 decibels. Fortunately our customer is pretty deaf (but his wife isn’t). Let the buyer and seller beware. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, August 4, 2025 11:11 PM To: william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches Cc: Jeff Clearwater ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power Having consulted for EG4 all I can say is you are all way off in your conjectures. James and his team have the industry’s best interests at heart. Anymore is only appropriate to discuss off list. Conjecture without direct knowledge often results in unnecessary harm and projection of our fear rather than useful sense making. I believe the List has ethical standards that we should follow here. May we all work together to continue to build on all the great cooperative work we’ve done to uplift the solar industry over the years. Best Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Since 1996 Sent from my iPhone On Aug 4, 2025, at 11:58 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote: Friends: One explanation is possibly that James Showalter wants to quietly remove a well-respected, competing product from the market. William PS: It is more than a bit off-putting that EG4 chose to post a [ note ]( https://eg4electronics.com/energy-access-innovations-powers-americas-future-with-new-texas-facility/ ) kissing up to DJT. I’m suddenly way less anxious to give EG4 a try. WM Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 [ www.millersolar.com ]( http://www.millersolar.com/ ) CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:[ re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org )] On Behalf Of Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, August 4, 2025 11:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Maverick Brown; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power James Showalter Founder of EG4 Electronics, Signature Solar and partner in buying Outback from Alpha / Entersys. [ linkedin.com ]( https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-showalter-9a0599156 ) [ https://eg4electronics.com/meet-james-showalter-founder-of-eg4-electronics/ ]( https://eg4electronics.com/meet-james-showalter-founder-of-eg4-electronics/ ) He ran a solar installation business and then switched gears. That’s about all I know. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection [ maverick at mavericksolar.com ]( mailto:maverick at mavericksolar.com ) 512-460-9825 On Aug 4, 2025, at 1:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote: Who is James ( I assume a partner of Signature Solar) and what is his background? Christopher On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 4:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote: I checked on a few websites and some do have some items. I wonder if they bought it for the military contracts and the retail they don’t really care about. Because EG4 and signature solar and big battery all know how to market and sell and make new good products. One thing I heard was they bought it to sell lithium batteries to legacy Outback people. I guess that they would make some changes to the mate to communicate with their batteries. Which made sense maybe? Hopefully someone will spill the info at somepoint because it’s weird I could see myself buying any OB products as replacement maybe but for a new project, seems unlikely. On Aug 2, 2025, at 12:52 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote: I do wonder what the real reason is that James bought outback and he also invented flex boss and grid boss. The Outback transition has languished uninformed to Wrenches and even to the DIY community. Just like the Gudgel boys, James has also shaped the industry in the new transition to the next era. After 20 years in the solar/battery business we built a homestead from the ground up in 2017 and the main inverter was a single Radian at the house and the outbuildings all had used XW inverters. I always thought I’d switch them to Radian One of the XWs died after over tens years of service. I replaced it with a Fortress Envy 12k. I guess if I have another failure here, that’s what I’ll get. Always open to customers wishes and have installed just about every inverter that’s ever been made installed from Tucson to Tucumcari ;-) but mostly in Texas. But, I’m Willin’ to work on the next best thing. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection [ maverick at mavericksolar.com ]( mailto:maverick at mavericksolar.com ) 512-460-9825 On Aug 2, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote: The question I have is, if they come back, would you trust them again? It would take a lot to convince me. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote: Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just died.? I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is OUTBACK Dana Orzel - [ dana at solarwork.com ]( mailto:dana at solarwork.com ) - 208.721.7003 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: [ http://re-wrenches.org ]( http://re-wrenches.org ) List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: [ https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ]( https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ) [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List rules & etiquette: [ http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) -- Chris Schaefer’s Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 [ www.solarandwindfx.com ]( http://www.solarandwindfx.com ) ~ E-mail: [ chris at solarandwindfx.com ]( mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com ) Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: [ http://re-wrenches.org ]( http://re-wrenches.org ) List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Aug 7 10:00:15 2025 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 10:00:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: <000c01dc079e$65e97c60$31bc7520$@OasisMontana.com> References: <5ed41f741c5f8111fe202660d5bdf28d@mail.gmail.com> <9D18218C-21BD-48D6-BC37-98A48C844247@villagepowerdesign.com> <000c01dc079e$65e97c60$31bc7520$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Jeff, I respect your vast years of experience and knowledge. However, being that OB has been such a huge provider of offgrid equipment over the last few decades I would have expected a much quicker turn over from one owner to another, similar to that of when Enersys bought OB some years back. If James Showalter is such a stand up guy and more importantly cares more about the RE industry than the mighty dollar then perhaps he'd like to address all of us wrenches and our concerns instead of leaving us and our customers out in the DARK. I know that would go a long way with me. Christopher On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 9:25 AM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jeff: > > > > There’s no conjecture about how utterly crappy the ‘service’ is from what > used to be Outback. They make promises and underdeliver or just ignore > you. The latest for us is promising a new MATE3 (to an elderly customer > with health issues) but that was nearly two months ago. Meanwhile, the > only EG4 system we’ve sold is terribly noisy – *90 decibels*. Fortunately > our customer is pretty deaf (but his wife isn’t). > > > > Let the buyer and seller beware. > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, August 4, 2025 11:11 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Cc:* Jeff Clearwater ; RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power > > > > Having consulted for EG4 all I can say is you are all way off in your > conjectures. James and his team have the industry’s best interests at > heart. > > > > Anymore is only appropriate to discuss off list. Conjecture without direct > knowledge often results in unnecessary harm and projection of our fear > rather than useful sense making. > > > > I believe the List has ethical standards that we should follow here. > > > > May we all work together to continue to build on all the great cooperative > work we’ve done to uplift the solar industry over the years. > > > > Best > > > > Jeff Clearwater > > Village Power Design > > Since 1996 > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Aug 4, 2025, at 11:58 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > > > One explanation is possibly that James Showalter wants to quietly remove a > well-respected, competing product from the market. > > > > William > > > > PS: It is more than a bit off-putting that EG4 chose to post a note > > kissing up to DJT. I’m suddenly way less anxious to give EG4 a try. > > > > WM > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, August 4, 2025 11:39 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Maverick Brown; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power > > > > James Showalter > > > > Founder of EG4 Electronics, Signature Solar and partner in buying Outback > from Alpha / Entersys. > > > > *linkedin.com * > > > > > > https://eg4electronics.com/meet-james-showalter-founder-of-eg4-electronics/ > > > > He ran a solar installation business and then switched gears. > > > > That’s about all I know. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Maverick > > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > > > > > On Aug 4, 2025, at 1:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Who is James ( I assume a partner of Signature Solar) and what is his > background? > > > > Christopher > > > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 4:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I checked on a few websites and some do have some items. > > > > I wonder if they bought it for the military contracts and the retail they > don’t really care about. > > > > Because EG4 and signature solar and big battery all know how to market and > sell and make new good products. > > > > One thing I heard was they bought it to sell lithium batteries to legacy > Outback people. I guess that they would make some changes to the mate to > communicate with their batteries. Which made sense maybe? > > > > Hopefully someone will spill the info at somepoint because it’s weird > > > > I could see myself buying any OB products as replacement maybe but for a > new project, seems unlikely. > > > > > > > > On Aug 2, 2025, at 12:52 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I do wonder what the real reason is that James bought outback and he > also invented flex boss and grid boss. The Outback transition has > languished uninformed to Wrenches and even to the DIY community. > > > > Just like the Gudgel boys, James has also shaped the industry in the new > transition to the next era. > > > > After 20 years in the solar/battery business we built a homestead from the > ground up in 2017 and the main inverter was a single Radian at the house > and the outbuildings all had used XW inverters. I always thought I’d switch > them to Radian One of the XWs died after over tens years of service. I > replaced it with a Fortress Envy 12k. I guess if I have another failure > here, that’s what I’ll get. > > > > Always open to customers wishes and have installed just about every > inverter that’s ever been made installed from Tucson to Tucumcari ;-) but > mostly in Texas. But, I’m Willin’ to work on the next best thing. > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > Maverick > > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > > > > > On Aug 2, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > The question I have is, if they come back, would you trust them again? It > would take a lot to convince me. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just > died.? > I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is > OUTBACK > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > > > > *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > ** > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 14:23:26 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 11:23:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: References: <5ed41f741c5f8111fe202660d5bdf28d@mail.gmail.com> <9D18218C-21BD-48D6-BC37-98A48C844247@villagepowerdesign.com> <000c01dc079e$65e97c60$31bc7520$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Wrenches and Jeff, I too started to reply about my extreme unhappiness with Outback a couple weeks back when Jay asked if anyone had any recent updates. I held on to my responses after writing because part of Jeff's sentiments were a concern of mine as well. Obviously many are in this for greater reasons beyond just a career and supporting ourselves. I realize EG**** has helped with the proliferation of more systems throughout the continents but I truly feel it's at the expense of filling up e-waste bins. As I remind folks locally that ask me about their products, the bitterness of poor quality resonates long after the sweetness of a good deal. Poor man buys it twice. I'll admit I've not looked into their find print, offerings or product listings recently as I've got better things to do with my time like find solutions for the failed Outback products that were well within warranty periods yet being denied. What I recall from before was that what they offered was substandard much like the majority of the equipment Signaturd was pushing direct from China along with Bezos. Beyond that, how James is handling Outback tells me all I need to know about his businesses and products. I know there is a market beyond us professionals as new DIY'ers excited to commence their solar dreams are coming to market every day but diverting homeowners to substandard equipment that could have otherwise gone to established and reputable companies like Midnite and the likes that grew this industry sickens me. I know there's a place for their business model and fine to work alongside what they offer as I typically don't want to work for someone that wants bottom of the barrel equipment anyway but the actions of James Sh*twater and whoever is emboldening him deserve no respect. Like many of you, I've got hundreds of off grid households relying on Outback equipment and obviously we all have relied on it because of its ruggedness and reliability so for them to now shake up the foundation of trust is extremely frustrating. The thought of how many thousands of off grid homes relying on their equipment is mind boggling and not something to take lightly. I realize there was more to be desired from Outback's tech support for quite some time before James but they always did come through and at least made the effort to repair or replace equipment still under warranty. Now all I get after waiting for them to give me an answer for three weeks is denials on equipment 2 years in on 5 year warranties and when I ask about perhaps at least repairing something like a FM100 all I get is "I would reach out to Zonna to see if they'll repair it". For James to not share his intentions on how they intend to support a big part of the foundation that paved the way for his undeserved success is nothing but disrespectable from the way I see it. The repairability of Outback inverters and controllers was a huge selling point that aligned with my ideals and a major reason I stood beside them for so long. Now I find it nearly impossible to try to make them look good. The only reason some of my sites still have power are because I cannibalized new products in my inventory (at my expense of course). If he can't comprehend what the eroded trust in Outback feels like when an off grid client calls to report their two year old equipement is not functioning correctly then I want absolutely nothing to do with anything he's involved in. There will never be a day I sell, touch or support an EGShenzhen product. Nick On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 7:01 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jeff, > > I respect your vast years of experience and knowledge. However, being that > OB has been such a huge provider of offgrid equipment over the last few > decades I would have expected a much quicker turn over from one owner to > another, similar to that of when Enersys bought OB some years back. > > If James Showalter is such a stand up guy and more importantly cares more > about the RE industry than the mighty dollar then perhaps he'd like to > address all of us wrenches and our concerns instead of leaving us and our > customers out in the DARK. I know that would go a long way with me. > > Christopher > > On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 9:25 AM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jeff: >> >> >> >> There’s no conjecture about how utterly crappy the ‘service’ is from what >> used to be Outback. They make promises and underdeliver or just ignore >> you. The latest for us is promising a new MATE3 (to an elderly customer >> with health issues) but that was nearly two months ago. Meanwhile, the >> only EG4 system we’ve sold is terribly noisy – *90 decibels*. Fortunately >> our customer is pretty deaf (but his wife isn’t). >> >> >> >> Let the buyer and seller beware. >> >> >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Monday, August 4, 2025 11:11 PM >> *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Cc:* Jeff Clearwater ; RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power >> >> >> >> Having consulted for EG4 all I can say is you are all way off in your >> conjectures. James and his team have the industry’s best interests at >> heart. >> >> >> >> Anymore is only appropriate to discuss off list. Conjecture without >> direct knowledge often results in unnecessary harm and projection of our >> fear rather than useful sense making. >> >> >> >> I believe the List has ethical standards that we should follow here. >> >> >> >> May we all work together to continue to build on all the great >> cooperative work we’ve done to uplift the solar industry over the years. >> >> >> >> Best >> >> >> >> Jeff Clearwater >> >> Village Power Design >> >> Since 1996 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >> On Aug 4, 2025, at 11:58 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> One explanation is possibly that James Showalter wants to quietly remove >> a well-respected, competing product from the market. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> PS: It is more than a bit off-putting that EG4 chose to post a note >> >> kissing up to DJT. I’m suddenly way less anxious to give EG4 a try. >> >> >> >> WM >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Monday, August 4, 2025 11:39 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Maverick Brown; RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power >> >> >> >> James Showalter >> >> >> >> Founder of EG4 Electronics, Signature Solar and partner in buying Outback >> from Alpha / Entersys. >> >> >> >> *linkedin.com * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> https://eg4electronics.com/meet-james-showalter-founder-of-eg4-electronics/ >> >> >> >> He ran a solar installation business and then switched gears. >> >> >> >> That’s about all I know. >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> >> >> Maverick >> >> >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 4, 2025, at 1:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Who is James ( I assume a partner of Signature Solar) and what is his >> background? >> >> >> >> Christopher >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 4:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> I checked on a few websites and some do have some items. >> >> >> >> I wonder if they bought it for the military contracts and the retail they >> don’t really care about. >> >> >> >> Because EG4 and signature solar and big battery all know how to market >> and sell and make new good products. >> >> >> >> One thing I heard was they bought it to sell lithium batteries to legacy >> Outback people. I guess that they would make some changes to the mate to >> communicate with their batteries. Which made sense maybe? >> >> >> >> Hopefully someone will spill the info at somepoint because it’s weird >> >> >> >> I could see myself buying any OB products as replacement maybe but for a >> new project, seems unlikely. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 2, 2025, at 12:52 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> I do wonder what the real reason is that James bought outback and he >> also invented flex boss and grid boss. The Outback transition has >> languished uninformed to Wrenches and even to the DIY community. >> >> >> >> Just like the Gudgel boys, James has also shaped the industry in the new >> transition to the next era. >> >> >> >> After 20 years in the solar/battery business we built a homestead from >> the ground up in 2017 and the main inverter was a single Radian at the >> house and the outbuildings all had used XW inverters. I always thought I’d >> switch them to Radian One of the XWs died after over tens years of >> service. I replaced it with a Fortress Envy 12k. I guess if I have another >> failure here, that’s what I’ll get. >> >> >> >> Always open to customers wishes and have installed just about every >> inverter that’s ever been made installed from Tucson to Tucumcari ;-) but >> mostly in Texas. But, I’m Willin’ to work on the next best thing. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> >> >> Maverick >> >> >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 2, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> The question I have is, if they come back, would you trust them again? It >> would take a lot to convince me. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just >> died.? >> I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is >> OUTBACK >> Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> >> >> >> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> ** >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 7 17:56:15 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 17:56:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: References: <5ed41f741c5f8111fe202660d5bdf28d@mail.gmail.com> <9D18218C-21BD-48D6-BC37-98A48C844247@villagepowerdesign.com> <000c01dc079e$65e97c60$31bc7520$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: I think I mentioned this many months ago in another thread, but (sadly) we are probably going to have to get used to the disposable economy and treat these products accordingly. That will be a struggle to accept. It's not just solar. My last HVAC unit lasted almost 20 years (in harsh Florida). I expect the one I just installed to last no more than the 10-year parts warranty period. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 2:25 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches and Jeff, > > I too started to reply about my extreme unhappiness with Outback a couple > weeks back when Jay asked if anyone had any recent updates. I held on to my > responses after writing because part of Jeff's sentiments were a concern of > mine as well. Obviously many are in this for greater reasons beyond just a > career and supporting ourselves. I realize EG**** has helped with the > proliferation of more systems throughout the continents but I truly feel > it's at the expense of filling up e-waste bins. As I remind folks locally > that ask me about their products, the bitterness of poor quality resonates > long after the sweetness of a good deal. Poor man buys it twice. I'll > admit I've not looked into their find print, offerings or product listings > recently as I've got better things to do with my time like find solutions > for the failed Outback products that were well within warranty periods yet > being denied. What I recall from before was that what they offered was > substandard much like the majority of the equipment Signaturd was pushing > direct from China along with Bezos. Beyond that, how James is handling > Outback tells me all I need to know about his businesses and products. I > know there is a market beyond us professionals as new DIY'ers excited to > commence their solar dreams are coming to market every day but diverting > homeowners to substandard equipment that could have otherwise gone to > established and reputable companies like Midnite and the likes that grew > this industry sickens me. I know there's a place for their business model > and fine to work alongside what they offer as I typically don't want to > work for someone that wants bottom of the barrel equipment anyway but the > actions of James Sh*twater and whoever is emboldening him deserve no > respect. Like many of you, I've got hundreds of off grid households relying > on Outback equipment and obviously we all have relied on it because of its > ruggedness and reliability so for them to now shake up the foundation of > trust is extremely frustrating. The thought of how many thousands of off > grid homes relying on their equipment is mind boggling and not something to > take lightly. I realize there was more to be desired from Outback's tech > support for quite some time before James but they always did come through > and at least made the effort to repair or replace equipment still under > warranty. Now all I get after waiting for them to give me an answer for > three weeks is denials on equipment 2 years in on 5 year warranties and > when I ask about perhaps at least repairing something like a FM100 all I > get is "I would reach out to Zonna to see if they'll repair it". For James > to not share his intentions on how they intend to support a big part of the > foundation that paved the way for his undeserved success is nothing but > disrespectable from the way I see it. The repairability of Outback > inverters and controllers was a huge selling point that aligned with my > ideals and a major reason I stood beside them for so long. Now I find it > nearly impossible to try to make them look good. The only reason some of my > sites still have power are because I cannibalized new products in my > inventory (at my expense of course). If he can't comprehend what the eroded > trust in Outback feels like when an off grid client calls to report > their two year old equipement is not functioning correctly then I want > absolutely nothing to do with anything he's involved in. There will never > be a day I sell, touch or support an EGShenzhen product. > > Nick > > On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 7:01 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jeff, >> >> I respect your vast years of experience and knowledge. However, being >> that OB has been such a huge provider of offgrid equipment over the last >> few decades I would have expected a much quicker turn over from one owner >> to another, similar to that of when Enersys bought OB some years back. >> >> If James Showalter is such a stand up guy and more importantly cares more >> about the RE industry than the mighty dollar then perhaps he'd like to >> address all of us wrenches and our concerns instead of leaving us and our >> customers out in the DARK. I know that would go a long way with me. >> >> Christopher >> >> On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 9:25 AM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Jeff: >>> >>> >>> >>> There’s no conjecture about how utterly crappy the ‘service’ is from >>> what used to be Outback. They make promises and underdeliver or just >>> ignore you. The latest for us is promising a new MATE3 (to an elderly >>> customer with health issues) but that was nearly two months ago. Meanwhile, >>> the only EG4 system we’ve sold is terribly noisy – *90 decibels*. Fortunately >>> our customer is pretty deaf (but his wife isn’t). >>> >>> >>> >>> Let the buyer and seller beware. >>> >>> >>> >>> Chris Daum >>> >>> Oasis Montana Inc. >>> >>> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >>> >>> 406-777-4309 fax >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>> Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Monday, August 4, 2025 11:11 PM >>> *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> *Cc:* Jeff Clearwater ; RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power >>> >>> >>> >>> Having consulted for EG4 all I can say is you are all way off in your >>> conjectures. James and his team have the industry’s best interests at >>> heart. >>> >>> >>> >>> Anymore is only appropriate to discuss off list. Conjecture without >>> direct knowledge often results in unnecessary harm and projection of our >>> fear rather than useful sense making. >>> >>> >>> >>> I believe the List has ethical standards that we should follow here. >>> >>> >>> >>> May we all work together to continue to build on all the great >>> cooperative work we’ve done to uplift the solar industry over the years. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> >>> Village Power Design >>> >>> Since 1996 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 4, 2025, at 11:58 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> One explanation is possibly that James Showalter wants to quietly remove >>> a well-respected, competing product from the market. >>> >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> PS: It is more than a bit off-putting that EG4 chose to post a note >>> >>> kissing up to DJT. I’m suddenly way less anxious to give EG4 a try. >>> >>> >>> >>> WM >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Monday, August 4, 2025 11:39 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Maverick Brown; RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power >>> >>> >>> >>> James Showalter >>> >>> >>> >>> Founder of EG4 Electronics, Signature Solar and partner in buying >>> Outback from Alpha / Entersys. >>> >>> >>> >>> *linkedin.com * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> https://eg4electronics.com/meet-james-showalter-founder-of-eg4-electronics/ >>> >>> >>> >>> He ran a solar installation business and then switched gears. >>> >>> >>> >>> That’s about all I know. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> >>> >>> Maverick >>> >>> >>> >>> Maverick Brown >>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >>> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >>> • Solar Commander Remote Power >>> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >>> maverick at mavericksolar.com >>> 512-460-9825 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 4, 2025, at 1:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> Who is James ( I assume a partner of Signature Solar) and what is his >>> background? >>> >>> >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 4:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> I checked on a few websites and some do have some items. >>> >>> >>> >>> I wonder if they bought it for the military contracts and the retail >>> they don’t really care about. >>> >>> >>> >>> Because EG4 and signature solar and big battery all know how to market >>> and sell and make new good products. >>> >>> >>> >>> One thing I heard was they bought it to sell lithium batteries to >>> legacy Outback people. I guess that they would make some changes to the >>> mate to communicate with their batteries. Which made sense maybe? >>> >>> >>> >>> Hopefully someone will spill the info at somepoint because it’s weird >>> >>> >>> >>> I could see myself buying any OB products as replacement maybe but for >>> a new project, seems unlikely. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 2, 2025, at 12:52 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> I do wonder what the real reason is that James bought outback and he >>> also invented flex boss and grid boss. The Outback transition has >>> languished uninformed to Wrenches and even to the DIY community. >>> >>> >>> >>> Just like the Gudgel boys, James has also shaped the industry in the new >>> transition to the next era. >>> >>> >>> >>> After 20 years in the solar/battery business we built a homestead from >>> the ground up in 2017 and the main inverter was a single Radian at the >>> house and the outbuildings all had used XW inverters. I always thought I’d >>> switch them to Radian One of the XWs died after over tens years of >>> service. I replaced it with a Fortress Envy 12k. I guess if I have another >>> failure here, that’s what I’ll get. >>> >>> >>> >>> Always open to customers wishes and have installed just about every >>> inverter that’s ever been made installed from Tucson to Tucumcari ;-) but >>> mostly in Texas. But, I’m Willin’ to work on the next best thing. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> >>> >>> Maverick >>> >>> >>> >>> Maverick Brown >>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >>> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >>> • Solar Commander Remote Power >>> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >>> maverick at mavericksolar.com >>> 512-460-9825 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 2, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> The question I have is, if they come back, would you trust them again? >>> It would take a lot to convince me. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just >>> died.? >>> I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is >>> OUTBACK >>> Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com >>> ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> * >>> >>> ** >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Fri Aug 8 10:14:45 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (Todd Cory) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 15:14:45 +0100 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: References: <5ed41f741c5f8111fe202660d5bdf28d@mail.gmail.com> <9D18218C-21BD-48D6-BC37-98A48C844247@villagepowerdesign.com> <000c01dc079e$65e97c60$31bc7520$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <1988a085a60.284a.4317fda5bda71af373de9c45c94f08a7@finestplanet.com> FYi... OpticsRE is down again. On August 7, 2025 7:25:09 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wrenches and Jeff, > > > I too started to reply about my extreme unhappiness with Outback a couple > weeks back when Jay asked if anyone had any recent updates. I held on to my > responses after writing because part of Jeff's sentiments were a concern of > mine as well. Obviously many are in this for greater reasons beyond just a > career and supporting ourselves. I realize EG**** has helped with the > proliferation of more systems throughout the continents but I truly feel > it's at the expense of filling up e-waste bins. As I remind folks locally > that ask me about their products, the bitterness of poor quality resonates > long after the sweetness of a good deal. Poor man buys it twice. I'll admit > I've not looked into their find print, offerings or product listings > recently as I've got better things to do with my time like find solutions > for the failed Outback products that were well within warranty periods yet > being denied. What I recall from before was that what they offered was > substandard much like the majority of the equipment Signaturd was pushing > direct from China along with Bezos. Beyond that, how James is handling > Outback tells me all I need to know about his businesses and products. I > know there is a market beyond us professionals as new DIY'ers excited to > commence their solar dreams are coming to market every day but diverting > homeowners to substandard equipment that could have otherwise gone to > established and reputable companies like Midnite and the likes that grew > this industry sickens me. I know there's a place for their business model > and fine to work alongside what they offer as I typically don't want to > work for someone that wants bottom of the barrel equipment anyway but the > actions of James Sh*twater and whoever is emboldening him deserve no > respect. Like many of you, I've got hundreds of off grid households relying > on Outback equipment and obviously we all have relied on it because of its > ruggedness and reliability so for them to now shake up the foundation of > trust is extremely frustrating. The thought of how many thousands of off > grid homes relying on their equipment is mind boggling and not something to > take lightly. I realize there was more to be desired from Outback's tech > support for quite some time before James but they always did come through > and at least made the effort to repair or replace equipment still under > warranty. Now all I get after waiting for them to give me an answer for > three weeks is denials on equipment 2 years in on 5 year warranties and > when I ask about perhaps at least repairing something like a FM100 all I > get is "I would reach out to Zonna to see if they'll repair it". For James > to not share his intentions on how they intend to support a big part of the > foundation that paved the way for his undeserved success is nothing but > disrespectable from the way I see it. The repairability of Outback > inverters and controllers was a huge selling point that aligned with my > ideals and a major reason I stood beside them for so long. Now I find it > nearly impossible to try to make them look good. The only reason some of my > sites still have power are because I cannibalized new products in my > inventory (at my expense of course). If he can't comprehend what the eroded > trust in Outback feels like when an off grid client calls to report their > two year old equipement is not functioning correctly then I want absolutely > nothing to do with anything he's involved in. There will never be a day I > sell, touch or support an EGShenzhen product. > > Nick > > On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 7:01 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Jeff, > > I respect your vast years of experience and knowledge. However, being that > OB has been such a huge provider of offgrid equipment over the last few > decades I would have expected a much quicker turn over from one owner to > another, similar to that of when Enersys bought OB some years back. > > If James Showalter is such a stand up guy and more importantly cares more > about the RE industry than the mighty dollar then perhaps he'd like to > address all of us wrenches and our concerns instead of leaving us and our > customers out in the DARK. I know that would go a long way with me. > > Christopher > > > On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 9:25 AM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Jeff: > > There’s no conjecture about how utterly crappy the ‘service’ is from what > used to be Outback. They make promises and underdeliver or just ignore > you. The latest for us is promising a new MATE3 (to an elderly customer > with health issues) but that was nearly two months ago. Meanwhile, the > only EG4 system we’ve sold is terribly noisy – 90 decibels. Fortunately > our customer is pretty deaf (but his wife isn’t). > > Let the buyer and seller beware. > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > > > > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of > Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches > Sent: Monday, August 4, 2025 11:11 PM > To: william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > Cc: Jeff Clearwater ; RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power > > Having consulted for EG4 all I can say is you are all way off in your > conjectures. James and his team have the industry’s best interests at heart. > > Anymore is only appropriate to discuss off list. Conjecture without direct > knowledge often results in unnecessary harm and projection of our fear > rather than useful sense making. > > I believe the List has ethical standards that we should follow here. > > May we all work together to continue to build on all the great cooperative > work we’ve done to uplift the solar industry over the years. > > Best > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > Since 1996 > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Aug 4, 2025, at 11:58 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >  > Friends: > > One explanation is possibly that James Showalter wants to quietly remove a > well-respected, competing product from the market. > > William > > PS: It is more than a bit off-putting that EG4 chose to post a note > kissing up to DJT. I’m suddenly way less anxious to give EG4 a try. > > WM > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > Sent: Monday, August 4, 2025 11:39 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Maverick Brown; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power > > James Showalter > > Founder of EG4 Electronics, Signature Solar and partner in buying Outback > from Alpha / Entersys. > > linkedin.com > > > > > > > https://eg4electronics.com/meet-james-showalter-founder-of-eg4-electronics/ > > He ran a solar installation business and then switched gears. > > That’s about all I know. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Aug 4, 2025, at 1:21 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches > wrote: >  > Who is James ( I assume a partner of Signature Solar) and what is his > background? > > Christopher > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 4:23 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I checked on a few websites and some do have some items. > > I wonder if they bought it for the military contracts and the retail they > don’t really care about. > > Because EG4 and signature solar and big battery all know how to market and > sell and make new good products. > > One thing I heard was they bought it to sell lithium batteries to legacy > Outback people. I guess that they would make some changes to the mate to > communicate with their batteries. Which made sense maybe? > > Hopefully someone will spill the info at somepoint because it’s weird > > I could see myself buying any OB products as replacement maybe but for a > new project, seems unlikely. > > > > On Aug 2, 2025, at 12:52 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I do wonder what the real reason is that James bought outback and he also > invented flex boss and grid boss. The Outback transition has languished > uninformed to Wrenches and even to the DIY community. > > Just like the Gudgel boys, James has also shaped the industry in the new > transition to the next era. > > After 20 years in the solar/battery business we built a homestead from the > ground up in 2017 and the main inverter was a single Radian at the house > and the outbuildings all had used XW inverters. I always thought I’d switch > them to Radian One of the XWs died after over tens years of service. I > replaced it with a Fortress Envy 12k. I guess if I have another failure > here, that’s what I’ll get. > > Always open to customers wishes and have installed just about every > inverter that’s ever been made installed from Tucson to Tucumcari ;-) but > mostly in Texas. But, I’m Willin’ to work on the next best thing. > > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Aug 2, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >  > The question I have is, if they come back, would you trust them again? It > would take a lot to convince me. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just died.? > I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is OUTBACK > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > > Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 > S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > > Thomas Jefferson, > the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will > cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give > to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent with Aqua Mail for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com Sat Aug 9 06:42:39 2025 From: travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com (Travis Knipple) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 13:42:39 +0300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV/ESS Companies in Finland Message-ID: Hi all, Anyone have any contacts for me to reach out to in Finland regarding systems? I'm visiting friends/family and hearing their electric rates are $0.50/kWhr and up, with 15-minute variable rates. -Travis -- Travis Knipple Senior Engineer Hudson Solar Solutions LLC Rhinebeck, NY 12572 518-539-8040 x408 | travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com PVIP# PV-111821-013612 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 11:25:25 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:25:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie Message-ID: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery backup to normal GT inverter? I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. Thx Jay From dan at foxfire-energy.com Sat Aug 9 11:41:34 2025 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 15:41:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9D48FC6E-CCA7-4D0C-B9FF-7B83FED899AA@foxfire-energy.com> I’m actually rocking an old SW and L16s for dedicated loads here at the shop.. I have customers ranging from FX and FXRs with FLA Or LFP Batteries to RADIAN and SMA and LFP.. I’ll probably switch to LFP when these L16s croak this time.. all depends on budget and owner involvement. IMHO. db Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 9, 2025, at 11:26 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery backup to normal GT inverter? > > > > I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. > > Thx > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 9 11:42:08 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 11:42:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> Message-ID: We are doing this a LOT here right now. It became especially popular after Hurricanes Ian, Helene, and Milton hit here in quick succession. If they have Enphase microinverters (very popular here), we typically keep them in the Enphase ecosystem with 5P batteries. If they have anything else, we typically recommend Tesla Powerwall 3, and try to sell some DC-coupled panels added on as well. We do NOT offer SolarEdge storage products, even if they have existing SolarEdge optimizers. We refuse to sell or service SolarEdge products, but we will add AC coupled battery backup to existing systems. If they want generator redundancy, the Enphase solution is a bit limiting, so we steer clear of that. For Tesla we will offer a generator interlock if they are willing to do things manually, or they can integrate a generator with automatic transfer switch on the load side of the Powerwall to power loads if batteries are depleted. If they want true redundancy, we recommend Midnite AIO with Powerflo16 batteries. However, I have only AC coupled a small PV array to the AIO so far. I'm not sure how to deal with larger systems, especially with parallel inverter setups. I am on the fence about EG4 like many others here, but the GridBoss is a compelling option when generator integration is desired. I believe you can AC couple to it when using any of their 18k/21k inverters with batteries. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 11:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery backup > to normal GT inverter? > > > > I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. > > Thx > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Aug 9 11:46:54 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 08:46:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Two options: 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. 2. Replace existing inverter. I favor option 2. Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter for replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing stringing will probably not need to be modified. I’m new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to these opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and it’s working great! William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery backup > to normal GT inverter? > > > > I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. > > Thx > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Sat Aug 9 12:14:33 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:14:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree with William from an energy perspective in the long run it’s more practical and elegant to DC couple. Usually the monitoring works out cleaner too if solar is just ‘Solar.’ as opposed to ac-coupled solar, which can be confusing. Having said that, we built a 3-SolArk-15K in parallel, splitting about 20kW of legacy AC-coupled pv (SMA Sunny Boys) in the Gen ports. Did it this way because of distance. This system has been running about 1.5 years with no problems. 👍 We’ve had good experience with Franklin, but have only done 2 of those. I lean toward SolArk for better or worse, and almost always happy with their reliability, flexible functionality, and customer service. I’m with Jason regarding Solaredge - I’ll never install them again. According to Tesla website, Powerwalls are not compatible with generators for battery recharging. Correct me if I’m wrong. But if Tesla batteries can’t accept Gen charging, to me this is a huge weakness. On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Two options: > > 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. > > 2. Replace existing inverter. > > I favor option 2. > > Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter for > replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. > > New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing > stringing will probably not need to be modified. > > I’m new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to these > opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and it’s > working great! > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery >> backup to normal GT inverter? >> >> >> >> I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 12:28:56 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:28:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my experience. If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend having tech support walk you through commissioning, check firmware, etc. the first time. On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Two options: > > 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. > > 2. Replace existing inverter. > > I favor option 2. > > Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter for > replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. > > New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing > stringing will probably not need to be modified. > > I’m new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to these > opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and it’s > working great! > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery >> backup to normal GT inverter? >> >> >> >> I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 12:35:44 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 10:35:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> Message-ID: One big issue with the AIO’s is that you can’t do grid, generator and ac coupling to the best of my understanding I do like the idea of just removing the old GT inverter and stuffing that into the AIO, elegant yes its my understanding that Tesla won’t accept generator. While many are pissed off at eg4, I won’t touch tesla. and FYI you can buy the same inverter at Fortress. thanks everyone. jay > On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my experience. If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend having tech support walk you through commissioning, check firmware, etc. the first time. > > > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Two options: >> >> 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. >> >> 2. Replace existing inverter. >> >> I favor option 2. >> >> Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter for replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. >> >> New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing stringing will probably not need to be modified. >> >> I’m new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to these opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and it’s working great! >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery backup to normal GT inverter? >>> >>> >>> >>> I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Sat Aug 9 12:49:54 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:49:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> Message-ID: True. if you want to do grid, gen, and AC Couple then you need a transfer switch or contactor. Likewise I haven’t touched a Powerwall, nor an Enphase battery. On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:36 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > One big issue with the AIO’s is that you can’t do grid, generator and ac > coupling to the best of my understanding > > I do like the idea of just removing the old GT inverter and stuffing that > into the AIO, elegant > > yes its my understanding that Tesla won’t accept generator. While many > are pissed off at eg4, I won’t touch tesla. > > and FYI you can buy the same inverter at Fortress. > > thanks everyone. > > jay > > > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my experience. > If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend having tech support > walk you through commissioning, check firmware, etc. the first time. > > > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Two options: >> >> 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. >> >> 2. Replace existing inverter. >> >> I favor option 2. >> >> Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter for >> replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. >> >> New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing >> stringing will probably not need to be modified. >> >> I’m new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to these >> opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and it’s >> working great! >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery >>> backup to normal GT inverter? >>> >>> >>> >>> I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 12:52:37 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:52:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> Message-ID: My understanding with the AIO is that you can but not at the same time...ie whichever is smaller(gen or ac coupled inverter) will switch off in the event that both are called to operate.. On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 9:36 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > One big issue with the AIO’s is that you can’t do grid, generator and ac > coupling to the best of my understanding > > I do like the idea of just removing the old GT inverter and stuffing that > into the AIO, elegant > > yes its my understanding that Tesla won’t accept generator. While many > are pissed off at eg4, I won’t touch tesla. > > and FYI you can buy the same inverter at Fortress. > > thanks everyone. > > jay > > > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my experience. > If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend having tech support > walk you through commissioning, check firmware, etc. the first time. > > > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Two options: >> >> 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. >> >> 2. Replace existing inverter. >> >> I favor option 2. >> >> Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter for >> replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. >> >> New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing >> stringing will probably not need to be modified. >> >> I’m new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to these >> opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and it’s >> working great! >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery >>> backup to normal GT inverter? >>> >>> >>> >>> I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Aug 9 13:03:26 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 10:03:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power through the load ‘output’ port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs free for their roles as labelled. The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads panel. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:50 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > True. if you want to do grid, gen, and AC Couple then you need a transfer > switch or contactor. > Likewise I haven’t touched a Powerwall, nor an Enphase battery. > > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:36 AM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> One big issue with the AIO’s is that you can’t do grid, generator and ac >> coupling to the best of my understanding >> >> I do like the idea of just removing the old GT inverter and stuffing that >> into the AIO, elegant >> >> yes its my understanding that Tesla won’t accept generator. While many >> are pissed off at eg4, I won’t touch tesla. >> >> and FYI you can buy the same inverter at Fortress. >> >> thanks everyone. >> >> jay >> >> >> >> On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my experience. >> If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend having tech support >> walk you through commissioning, check firmware, etc. the first time. >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Two options: >>> >>> 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. >>> >>> 2. Replace existing inverter. >>> >>> I favor option 2. >>> >>> Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter >>> for replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. >>> >>> New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing >>> stringing will probably not need to be modified. >>> >>> I’m new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to these >>> opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and it’s >>> working great! >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery >>>> backup to normal GT inverter? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. >>>> >>>> Thx >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Sat Aug 9 13:26:11 2025 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 17:26:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Umm, just an FYI, I actually got dinged for labeling the AC output panel from a battery backup inverter as "Critical Loads".. Critical loads (Critical Branch circuits) are defined in article 100 of the NEC as circuits associated with Patient Care.. AC loads from battery backup inverters are more appropriately defined as "Dedicated Loads".. Maybe someone could correct me here, but I'm under the impression most garden-variety inverters are not rated for Critical Load applications. db ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, August 9, 2025 1:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power through the load ‘output’ port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs free for their roles as labelled. The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads panel. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:50 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: True. if you want to do grid, gen, and AC Couple then you need a transfer switch or contactor. Likewise I haven’t touched a Powerwall, nor an Enphase battery. On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:36 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: One big issue with the AIO’s is that you can’t do grid, generator and ac coupling to the best of my understanding I do like the idea of just removing the old GT inverter and stuffing that into the AIO, elegant yes its my understanding that Tesla won’t accept generator. While many are pissed off at eg4, I won’t touch tesla. and FYI you can buy the same inverter at Fortress. thanks everyone. jay On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my experience. If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend having tech support walk you through commissioning, check firmware, etc. the first time. On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Two options: 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. 2. Replace existing inverter. I favor option 2. Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter for replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing stringing will probably not need to be modified. I’m new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to these opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and it’s working great! William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery backup to normal GT inverter? I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. Thx Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Aug 9 13:45:48 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 10:45:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ok: Priority loads. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 10:26 AM Foxfire Energy wrote: > Umm, just an FYI, I actually got dinged for labeling the AC output panel > from a battery backup inverter as "Critical Loads".. Critical loads > (Critical Branch circuits) are defined in article 100 of the NEC as > circuits associated with Patient Care.. AC loads from battery backup > inverters are more appropriately defined as "Dedicated Loads".. > Maybe someone could correct me here, but I'm under the impression most > garden-variety inverters are not rated for Critical Load applications. > db > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of William Miller via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, August 9, 2025 1:03 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* William Miller > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie > > Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power > through the load ‘output’ port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs free > for their roles as labelled. > > The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads > panel. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:50 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > True. if you want to do grid, gen, and AC Couple then you need a transfer > switch or contactor. > Likewise I haven’t touched a Powerwall, nor an Enphase battery. > > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:36 AM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > One big issue with the AIO’s is that you can’t do grid, generator and ac > coupling to the best of my understanding > > I do like the idea of just removing the old GT inverter and stuffing that > into the AIO, elegant > > yes its my understanding that Tesla won’t accept generator. While many > are pissed off at eg4, I won’t touch tesla. > > and FYI you can buy the same inverter at Fortress. > > thanks everyone. > > jay > > > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my experience. > If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend having tech support > walk you through commissioning, check firmware, etc. the first time. > > > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Two options: > > 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. > > 2. Replace existing inverter. > > I favor option 2. > > Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter for > replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. > > New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing > stringing will probably not need to be modified. > > I’m new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to these > opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and it’s > working great! > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery backup > to normal GT inverter? > > > > I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. > > Thx > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 13:54:54 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 11:54:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <97C46EBC-B28B-40B5-9EB6-2547B24C7B12@gmail.com> Yeah I’ve given up trying to correct people on that one. > On Aug 9, 2025, at 11:26 AM, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Umm, just an FYI, I actually got dinged for labeling the AC output panel from a battery backup inverter as "Critical Loads".. Critical loads (Critical Branch circuits) are defined in article 100 of the NEC as circuits associated with Patient Care.. AC loads from battery backup inverters are more appropriately defined as "Dedicated Loads".. > Maybe someone could correct me here, but I'm under the impression most garden-variety inverters are not rated for Critical Load applications. > db > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, August 9, 2025 1:03 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: William Miller > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie > > Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power through the load ‘output’ port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs free for their roles as labelled. > > The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads panel. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:50 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: > True. if you want to do grid, gen, and AC Couple then you need a transfer switch or contactor. > Likewise I haven’t touched a Powerwall, nor an Enphase battery. > > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:36 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > One big issue with the AIO’s is that you can’t do grid, generator and ac coupling to the best of my understanding > > I do like the idea of just removing the old GT inverter and stuffing that into the AIO, elegant > > yes its my understanding that Tesla won’t accept generator. While many are pissed off at eg4, I won’t touch tesla. > > and FYI you can buy the same inverter at Fortress. > > thanks everyone. > > jay > > > >> On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my experience. If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend having tech support walk you through commissioning, check firmware, etc. the first time. >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Two options: >> >> 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. >> >> 2. Replace existing inverter. >> >> I favor option 2. >> >> Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter for replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. >> >> New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing stringing will probably not need to be modified. >> >> I’m new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to these opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and it’s working great! >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery backup to normal GT inverter? >> >> >> >> I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 9 14:26:15 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 14:26:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: <97C46EBC-B28B-40B5-9EB6-2547B24C7B12@gmail.com> References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> <97C46EBC-B28B-40B5-9EB6-2547B24C7B12@gmail.com> Message-ID: I go with "Backup Loads" on my drawings. Tesla will not charge from a generator. But you can obviously have a generator power the loads via a transfer switch if the battery is completely depleted. It's not the best solution, for sure. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 1:57 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yeah I’ve given up trying to correct people on that one. > > > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 11:26 AM, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Umm, just an FYI, I actually got dinged for labeling the AC output panel > from a battery backup inverter as "Critical Loads".. Critical loads > (Critical Branch circuits) are defined in article 100 of the NEC as > circuits associated with Patient Care.. AC loads from battery backup > inverters are more appropriately defined as "Dedicated Loads".. > Maybe someone could correct me here, but I'm under the impression most > garden-variety inverters are not rated for Critical Load applications. > db > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of William Miller via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, August 9, 2025 1:03 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* William Miller > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie > > Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power > through the load ‘output’ port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs free > for their roles as labelled. > > The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads > panel. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:50 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > True. if you want to do grid, gen, and AC Couple then you need a transfer > switch or contactor. > Likewise I haven’t touched a Powerwall, nor an Enphase battery. > > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:36 AM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > One big issue with the AIO’s is that you can’t do grid, generator and ac > coupling to the best of my understanding > > I do like the idea of just removing the old GT inverter and stuffing that > into the AIO, elegant > > yes its my understanding that Tesla won’t accept generator. While many > are pissed off at eg4, I won’t touch tesla. > > and FYI you can buy the same inverter at Fortress. > > thanks everyone. > > jay > > > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my experience. > If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend having tech support > walk you through commissioning, check firmware, etc. the first time. > > > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Two options: > > 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. > > 2. Replace existing inverter. > > I favor option 2. > > Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter for > replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. > > New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing > stringing will probably not need to be modified. > > I’m new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to these > opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and it’s > working great! > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery backup > to normal GT inverter? > > > > I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. > > Thx > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 9 14:28:34 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 14:28:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 CISA Advisory Message-ID: In case you have not seen it: https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/ics-advisories/icsa-25-219-07 Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 14:32:14 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 11:32:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> <97C46EBC-B28B-40B5-9EB6-2547B24C7B12@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jason, Wrenches, Consensus well that may not be the correct word to use, personally l have used Solark for retrofitting systems that already have GT type inverters, if you go with AC Coupling then the gen set connection is a little more complicated but very doable. Funtimes On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 11:26 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I go with "Backup Loads" on my drawings. > > Tesla will not charge from a generator. But you can obviously have a > generator power the loads via a transfer switch if the battery is > completely depleted. It's not the best solution, for sure. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 1:57 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Yeah I’ve given up trying to correct people on that one. >> >> >> >> On Aug 9, 2025, at 11:26 AM, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Umm, just an FYI, I actually got dinged for labeling the AC output panel >> from a battery backup inverter as "Critical Loads".. Critical loads >> (Critical Branch circuits) are defined in article 100 of the NEC as >> circuits associated with Patient Care.. AC loads from battery backup >> inverters are more appropriately defined as "Dedicated Loads".. >> Maybe someone could correct me here, but I'm under the impression most >> garden-variety inverters are not rated for Critical Load applications. >> db >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Sent:* Saturday, August 9, 2025 1:03 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* William Miller >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie >> >> Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power >> through the load ‘output’ port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs free >> for their roles as labelled. >> >> The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads >> panel. >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:50 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> True. if you want to do grid, gen, and AC Couple then you need a >> transfer switch or contactor. >> Likewise I haven’t touched a Powerwall, nor an Enphase battery. >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:36 AM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> One big issue with the AIO’s is that you can’t do grid, generator and ac >> coupling to the best of my understanding >> >> I do like the idea of just removing the old GT inverter and stuffing that >> into the AIO, elegant >> >> yes its my understanding that Tesla won’t accept generator. While many >> are pissed off at eg4, I won’t touch tesla. >> >> and FYI you can buy the same inverter at Fortress. >> >> thanks everyone. >> >> jay >> >> >> >> On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my experience. >> If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend having tech support >> walk you through commissioning, check firmware, etc. the first time. >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Two options: >> >> 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. >> >> 2. Replace existing inverter. >> >> I favor option 2. >> >> Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter for >> replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. >> >> New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing >> stringing will probably not need to be modified. >> >> I’m new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to these >> opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and it’s >> working great! >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery >> backup to normal GT inverter? >> >> >> >> I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Sat Aug 9 14:51:42 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 14:51:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> <97C46EBC-B28B-40B5-9EB6-2547B24C7B12@gmail.com> Message-ID: The Midnite Power AIO has inputs for grid, generator, AC coupling and another smart load. I have not used both generator and AC coupling to see how it acts if both are active at the same time, but at least the inputs are there for them both. On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 2:33 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, Wrenches, > Consensus well that may not be the correct word to use, personally l have > used Solark for retrofitting systems that already have GT type inverters, > if you go with AC Coupling then the gen set connection is a little more > complicated but very doable. > Funtimes > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 11:26 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I go with "Backup Loads" on my drawings. >> >> Tesla will not charge from a generator. But you can obviously have a >> generator power the loads via a transfer switch if the battery is >> completely depleted. It's not the best solution, for sure. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 1:57 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Yeah I’ve given up trying to correct people on that one. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 9, 2025, at 11:26 AM, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Umm, just an FYI, I actually got dinged for labeling the AC output panel >>> from a battery backup inverter as "Critical Loads".. Critical loads >>> (Critical Branch circuits) are defined in article 100 of the NEC as >>> circuits associated with Patient Care.. AC loads from battery backup >>> inverters are more appropriately defined as "Dedicated Loads".. >>> Maybe someone could correct me here, but I'm under the impression most >>> garden-variety inverters are not rated for Critical Load applications. >>> db >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>> behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 9, 2025 1:03 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* William Miller >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie >>> >>> Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power >>> through the load ‘output’ port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs free >>> for their roles as labelled. >>> >>> The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads >>> panel. >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:50 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> True. if you want to do grid, gen, and AC Couple then you need a >>> transfer switch or contactor. >>> Likewise I haven’t touched a Powerwall, nor an Enphase battery. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:36 AM jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> One big issue with the AIO’s is that you can’t do grid, generator and ac >>> coupling to the best of my understanding >>> >>> I do like the idea of just removing the old GT inverter and stuffing >>> that into the AIO, elegant >>> >>> yes its my understanding that Tesla won’t accept generator. While many >>> are pissed off at eg4, I won’t touch tesla. >>> >>> and FYI you can buy the same inverter at Fortress. >>> >>> thanks everyone. >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my >>> experience. If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend having >>> tech support walk you through commissioning, check firmware, etc. the first >>> time. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Two options: >>> >>> 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. >>> >>> 2. Replace existing inverter. >>> >>> I favor option 2. >>> >>> Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter >>> for replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. >>> >>> New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing >>> stringing will probably not need to be modified. >>> >>> I’m new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to these >>> opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and it’s >>> working great! >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery >>> backup to normal GT inverter? >>> >>> >>> >>> I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Sat Aug 9 15:09:20 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 12:09:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding Battery to Grid Tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's two main ways to do it. Either keep it as is and AC couple it into the new battery system, or commandeer the DC from the PV array and feed into a new battery system. While AC coupling is common for a lot of the options -- Franklin, Tesla, many others, and just about all of the AIOs, I don't like it much if I can avoid it. Usually less control options if you get into limited or zero sell back situations instead of net metering, compared to a DC coupled solution, and difficulty with black start. If you already have embedded microinverters on the roof, it's probably the best option though. I think the SolArk can choose either AC coupled PV array or generator input, but not both. Midnite can do both, and not sure about EG4. Most of the AIO's can take a 600 volt string inverter array into their DC inputs, and just get rid of the old string inverter. Just make sure the old array doesn't have existing ground faults -- many old inverters were pretty blind to ground faults on the negative leg especially, and the AIO's running a floating array will not be happy with multiple faults in old arrays. There are also a bunch of battery capable string inverters from Fronius, SMA out now... typically pretty poor surge and imbalance performance from them, so if you are doing backup for well pumps or septic pumps, it's something to consider. Zeke -- Zeke Yewdall PV Engineer NABCEP #031508-89 zeke at darkforestsolar.com 303-523-3592 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 15:10:49 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 13:10:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <177EBCAD-BFDC-43E4-8670-A8511A091564@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 9 16:02:14 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 16:02:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: <177EBCAD-BFDC-43E4-8670-A8511A091564@gmail.com> References: <177EBCAD-BFDC-43E4-8670-A8511A091564@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't think any AIO manufacturer recommends AC Coupled only. Tesla, oddly, specifically markets adding Powerwall 3 to existing solar. Franklin fully embraces AC Coupling for obvious reasons. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 3:12 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thx I looked it up. > But according to midnite they don’t recommend a only ac coupled system. > > Jay > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 12:53 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > The Midnite Power AIO has inputs for grid, generator, AC coupling and > another smart load. I have not used both generator and AC coupling to see > how it acts if both are active at the same time, but at least the inputs > are there for them both. > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 2:33 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, Wrenches, >> Consensus well that may not be the correct word to use, personally l have >> used Solark for retrofitting systems that already have GT type inverters, >> if you go with AC Coupling then the gen set connection is a little more >> complicated but very doable. >> Funtimes >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 11:26 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I go with "Backup Loads" on my drawings. >>> >>> Tesla will not charge from a generator. But you can obviously have a >>> generator power the loads via a transfer switch if the battery is >>> completely depleted. It's not the best solution, for sure. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 1:57 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Yeah I’ve given up trying to correct people on that one. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Aug 9, 2025, at 11:26 AM, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Umm, just an FYI, I actually got dinged for labeling the AC output >>>> panel from a battery backup inverter as "Critical Loads".. Critical loads >>>> (Critical Branch circuits) are defined in article 100 of the NEC as >>>> circuits associated with Patient Care.. AC loads from battery backup >>>> inverters are more appropriately defined as "Dedicated Loads".. >>>> Maybe someone could correct me here, but I'm under the impression most >>>> garden-variety inverters are not rated for Critical Load applications. >>>> db >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>>> behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 9, 2025 1:03 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* William Miller >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie >>>> >>>> Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power >>>> through the load ‘output’ port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs free >>>> for their roles as labelled. >>>> >>>> The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads >>>> panel. >>>> >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> Miller Solar.com >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:50 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> True. if you want to do grid, gen, and AC Couple then you need a >>>> transfer switch or contactor. >>>> Likewise I haven’t touched a Powerwall, nor an Enphase battery. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:36 AM jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> One big issue with the AIO’s is that you can’t do grid, generator and >>>> ac coupling to the best of my understanding >>>> >>>> I do like the idea of just removing the old GT inverter and stuffing >>>> that into the AIO, elegant >>>> >>>> yes its my understanding that Tesla won’t accept generator. While many >>>> are pissed off at eg4, I won’t touch tesla. >>>> >>>> and FYI you can buy the same inverter at Fortress. >>>> >>>> thanks everyone. >>>> >>>> jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my >>>> experience. If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend having >>>> tech support walk you through commissioning, check firmware, etc. the first >>>> time. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Two options: >>>> >>>> 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. >>>> >>>> 2. Replace existing inverter. >>>> >>>> I favor option 2. >>>> >>>> Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter >>>> for replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. >>>> >>>> New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing >>>> stringing will probably not need to be modified. >>>> >>>> I’m new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to >>>> these opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and >>>> it’s working great! >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> Miller Solar.com >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery >>>> backup to normal GT inverter? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. >>>> >>>> Thx >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 9 16:12:01 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 16:12:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding Battery to Grid Tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One thing nobody has mentioned is rapid shutdown. If you have an existing DC system with no RSD system (older installation), most AHJs will likely require you to upgrade to RSD if you are changing the way the system works by installing a new inverter, especially if you are rewiring the strings. That adds a cost and complexity that suggests AC coupling to the existing system would be better. If you aren't touching the existing system on the DC side, there is a strong argument that you don't need to bring it up to RSD compliance. Certainly, if there are microinverters or power optimizers on the roof, the path of least resistance is AC Coupling. All of the manufacturers are moving in that direction, probably because there is a considerable market for Enphase and SolarEdge systems installed in the last 10 years that could have batteries added to them. I am finding fewer and fewer systems every year where it makes sense to add batteries and DC couple the existing panels. Frankly, if that was an option in recent years, there has usually been an argument to "start over," especially with the ability to get a 30% tax credit and new warranty. With the tax credit going away, that will change the calculus for do-overs. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 3:10 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > There's two main ways to do it. Either keep it as is and AC couple it > into the new battery system, or commandeer the DC from the PV array and > feed into a new battery system. > > While AC coupling is common for a lot of the options -- Franklin, Tesla, > many others, and just about all of the AIOs, I don't like it much if I can > avoid it. Usually less control options if you get into limited or zero sell > back situations instead of net metering, compared to a DC coupled solution, > and difficulty with black start. If you already have embedded > microinverters on the roof, it's probably the best option though. I think > the SolArk can choose either AC coupled PV array or generator input, but > not both. Midnite can do both, and not sure about EG4. > > Most of the AIO's can take a 600 volt string inverter array into their DC > inputs, and just get rid of the old string inverter. Just make sure the > old array doesn't have existing ground faults -- many old inverters were > pretty blind to ground faults on the negative leg especially, and the AIO's > running a floating array will not be happy with multiple faults in old > arrays. > > There are also a bunch of battery capable string inverters from Fronius, > SMA out now... typically pretty poor surge and imbalance performance from > them, so if you are doing backup for well pumps or septic pumps, it's > something to consider. > > Zeke > > -- > Zeke Yewdall > PV Engineer > NABCEP #031508-89 > zeke at darkforestsolar.com > 303-523-3592 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 17:00:10 2025 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 15:00:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> Message-ID: I used the term "critical loads subpanel" for many years until the NEC specified that special meaning for medical equipment and such. I got caught out by an AHJ official just as you did, Dan. I switched to "essential loads subpanel" though "backed up loads subpanel" is probably more specific. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 11:46 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Ok: Priority loads. > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Sat Aug 9 17:12:56 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 17:12:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: <177EBCAD-BFDC-43E4-8670-A8511A091564@gmail.com> References: <177EBCAD-BFDC-43E4-8670-A8511A091564@gmail.com> Message-ID: With the MNP AIO You can use an AC couple array at the same time as the Generator. But.... If the AC coupled input is larger than the Generator input, the Gen set relay will open to protect the Generator. On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 3:12 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thx I looked it up. > But according to midnite they don’t recommend a only ac coupled system. > > Jay > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 12:53 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > The Midnite Power AIO has inputs for grid, generator, AC coupling and > another smart load. I have not used both generator and AC coupling to see > how it acts if both are active at the same time, but at least the inputs > are there for them both. > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 2:33 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, Wrenches, >> Consensus well that may not be the correct word to use, personally l have >> used Solark for retrofitting systems that already have GT type inverters, >> if you go with AC Coupling then the gen set connection is a little more >> complicated but very doable. >> Funtimes >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 11:26 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I go with "Backup Loads" on my drawings. >>> >>> Tesla will not charge from a generator. But you can obviously have a >>> generator power the loads via a transfer switch if the battery is >>> completely depleted. It's not the best solution, for sure. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 1:57 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Yeah I’ve given up trying to correct people on that one. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Aug 9, 2025, at 11:26 AM, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Umm, just an FYI, I actually got dinged for labeling the AC output >>>> panel from a battery backup inverter as "Critical Loads".. Critical loads >>>> (Critical Branch circuits) are defined in article 100 of the NEC as >>>> circuits associated with Patient Care.. AC loads from battery backup >>>> inverters are more appropriately defined as "Dedicated Loads".. >>>> Maybe someone could correct me here, but I'm under the impression most >>>> garden-variety inverters are not rated for Critical Load applications. >>>> db >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>>> behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 9, 2025 1:03 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* William Miller >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie >>>> >>>> Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power >>>> through the load ‘output’ port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs free >>>> for their roles as labelled. >>>> >>>> The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads >>>> panel. >>>> >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> Miller Solar.com >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:50 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> True. if you want to do grid, gen, and AC Couple then you need a >>>> transfer switch or contactor. >>>> Likewise I haven’t touched a Powerwall, nor an Enphase battery. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:36 AM jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> One big issue with the AIO’s is that you can’t do grid, generator and >>>> ac coupling to the best of my understanding >>>> >>>> I do like the idea of just removing the old GT inverter and stuffing >>>> that into the AIO, elegant >>>> >>>> yes its my understanding that Tesla won’t accept generator. While many >>>> are pissed off at eg4, I won’t touch tesla. >>>> >>>> and FYI you can buy the same inverter at Fortress. >>>> >>>> thanks everyone. >>>> >>>> jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my >>>> experience. If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend having >>>> tech support walk you through commissioning, check firmware, etc. the first >>>> time. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Two options: >>>> >>>> 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. >>>> >>>> 2. Replace existing inverter. >>>> >>>> I favor option 2. >>>> >>>> Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter >>>> for replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. >>>> >>>> New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing >>>> stringing will probably not need to be modified. >>>> >>>> I’m new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to >>>> these opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and >>>> it’s working great! >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> Miller Solar.com >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery >>>> backup to normal GT inverter? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. >>>> >>>> Thx >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 17:26:43 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 15:26:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 17:34:02 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 17:34:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 CISA Advisory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the reference Jason. I only have 2 EG4 18k systems in the wild, one of which I've been promised a hardware upgrade for over a year now (to fix inverter shut offs due to relatively small imbalanced loads). Not being up on cyber security, I only vaguely understand what is being warned. As best as I can make out, the recommendation is to put the system behind a robust firewall and only access it via an up-to-date VPN and only with continual monitoring or remove it from internet connectivity altogether. If anyone can put the warning into a format that those of us without cyber training can understand, it would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Howie On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 2:30 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > In case you have not seen it: > > https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/ics-advisories/icsa-25-219-07 > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Sat Aug 9 19:40:02 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 19:40:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you are using the inverter with nothing connected to the high-voltage DC (PV) bus, AC Coupling is not recommended. The MNP AIO can operate as a standard string inverter, with or without a battery. Unlike most other AIOs, it can run with both a generator and AC-coupled inputs at the same time (personally tested). However, the AC-coupled input must be smaller (lower output) than the generator input; otherwise, the generator may drop offline. This limitation is in place to protect the generator’s control system. A side note: As with all inverters, firmware remains a major consideration. Fixes and adjustments can sometimes introduce new issues. As inverter technology advances—and with some states requiring utilities to control customer-owned equipment—firmware complexity will likely continue to grow, creating ongoing challenges for installers. We are all in for more challenges as we move forward. On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 5:27 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thx William > > The instructions specifically say that AC coupling only is not > recommended. > To me I read that in terms of the inverter wanting DC solar as well > > Can you explain what’s going on. > Which is the correct way to install it and why does it say not recommended > > Thx > Jay > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 3:13 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > With the MNP AIO You can use an AC couple array at the same time as the > Generator. But.... If the AC coupled input is larger than the > Generator input, the Gen set relay will open to protect the Generator. > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 3:12 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Thx I looked it up. >> But according to midnite they don’t recommend a only ac coupled system. >> >> Jay >> >> On Aug 9, 2025, at 12:53 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> The Midnite Power AIO has inputs for grid, generator, AC coupling and >> another smart load. I have not used both generator and AC coupling to see >> how it acts if both are active at the same time, but at least the inputs >> are there for them both. >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 2:33 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Jason, Wrenches, >>> Consensus well that may not be the correct word to use, personally l >>> have used Solark for retrofitting systems that already have GT type >>> inverters, if you go with AC Coupling then the gen set connection is a >>> little more complicated but very doable. >>> Funtimes >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 11:26 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I go with "Backup Loads" on my drawings. >>>> >>>> Tesla will not charge from a generator. But you can obviously have a >>>> generator power the loads via a transfer switch if the battery is >>>> completely depleted. It's not the best solution, for sure. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 1:57 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yeah I’ve given up trying to correct people on that one. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Aug 9, 2025, at 11:26 AM, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Umm, just an FYI, I actually got dinged for labeling the AC output >>>>> panel from a battery backup inverter as "Critical Loads".. Critical loads >>>>> (Critical Branch circuits) are defined in article 100 of the NEC as >>>>> circuits associated with Patient Care.. AC loads from battery backup >>>>> inverters are more appropriately defined as "Dedicated Loads".. >>>>> Maybe someone could correct me here, but I'm under the impression most >>>>> garden-variety inverters are not rated for Critical Load applications. >>>>> db >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>>>> behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 9, 2025 1:03 PM >>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>> *Cc:* William Miller >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie >>>>> >>>>> Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power >>>>> through the load ‘output’ port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs free >>>>> for their roles as labelled. >>>>> >>>>> The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads >>>>> panel. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> William Miller >>>>> Miller Solar.com >>>>> 805-438-5600 >>>>> www.millersolar.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:50 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> True. if you want to do grid, gen, and AC Couple then you need a >>>>> transfer switch or contactor. >>>>> Likewise I haven’t touched a Powerwall, nor an Enphase battery. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:36 AM jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> One big issue with the AIO’s is that you can’t do grid, generator and >>>>> ac coupling to the best of my understanding >>>>> >>>>> I do like the idea of just removing the old GT inverter and stuffing >>>>> that into the AIO, elegant >>>>> >>>>> yes its my understanding that Tesla won’t accept generator. While >>>>> many are pissed off at eg4, I won’t touch tesla. >>>>> >>>>> and FYI you can buy the same inverter at Fortress. >>>>> >>>>> thanks everyone. >>>>> >>>>> jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my >>>>> experience. If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend having >>>>> tech support walk you through commissioning, check firmware, etc. the first >>>>> time. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Two options: >>>>> >>>>> 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. >>>>> >>>>> 2. Replace existing inverter. >>>>> >>>>> I favor option 2. >>>>> >>>>> Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter >>>>> for replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. >>>>> >>>>> New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing >>>>> stringing will probably not need to be modified. >>>>> >>>>> I’m new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to >>>>> these opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and >>>>> it’s working great! >>>>> >>>>> William Miller >>>>> Miller Solar.com >>>>> 805-438-5600 >>>>> www.millersolar.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery >>>>> backup to normal GT inverter? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I’ve had a few people ask and I actually haven’t done it. >>>>> >>>>> Thx >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Aug 10 12:33:48 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 09:33:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> Message-ID: When I do this I tend to use an A or B switch for high voltage solar and then use a battery based with high voltage mppt or more commonly now, an all in one battery/inverter/HV mppt. My clients mostly are technical and can comprehend. I am lucky to have them! The panel wiring to automate can be expensive to do. Go manual! And so if the client is up for it technically and wants to keep cash in pocket, the Florida hurricane tap is great. You can't do any of this with big systems and non technical people. Good Luck Man! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-08-09 8:25 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery > backup to normal GT inverter? > > I've had a few people ask and I actually haven't done it. > > Thx > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Aug 10 16:49:01 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 13:49:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> Message-ID: When I do this I tend to use an A or B switch for high voltage solar and then use a battery based with high voltage mppt or more commonly now on DIY, Costco, and Signature, an all in one battery/inverter/HV mppt. My clients mostly are technical and can comprehend. I am lucky to have them! The panel wiring to automate can be expensive to do. Go manual! How many times and how long is it out??? And so if the client is up for it technically and wants to keep cash in pocket, the Florida hurricane tap is great. You can't do any of this with big systems and non technical people. However, if it was a long outage you are set and Offgrid and still have cash in your pocket. Big systems always seem to have big issues to me. Good Luck Man! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-08-09 8:25 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery backup to normal GT inverter? I've had a few people ask and I actually haven't done it. Thx Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Aug 11 09:35:41 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2025 09:35:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: <97C46EBC-B28B-40B5-9EB6-2547B24C7B12@gmail.com> References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> <97C46EBC-B28B-40B5-9EB6-2547B24C7B12@gmail.com> Message-ID: I use the Sunny Island designation of "Protected Loads." --- On 2025-08-09 13:54, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Yeah I've given up trying to correct people on that one. > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 11:26 AM, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Umm, just an FYI, I actually got dinged for labeling the AC output > panel from a battery backup inverter as "Critical Loads".. Critical > loads (Critical Branch circuits) are defined in article 100 of the NEC > as circuits associated with Patient Care.. AC loads from battery backup > inverters are more appropriately defined as "Dedicated Loads".. > Maybe someone could correct me here, but I'm under the impression most > garden-variety inverters are not rated for Critical Load applications. > db > > ------------------------- > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf > of William Miller via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, August 9, 2025 1:03 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: William Miller > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie > > Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power > through the load 'output' port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs > free for their roles as labelled. > > The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads > panel. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com [1] > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:50 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: > True. if you want to do grid, gen, and AC Couple then you need a > transfer switch or contactor. > Likewise I haven't touched a Powerwall, nor an Enphase battery. > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:36 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > One big issue with the AIO's is that you can't do grid, generator and > ac coupling to the best of my understanding > > I do like the idea of just removing the old GT inverter and stuffing > that into the AIO, elegant > > yes its my understanding that Tesla won't accept generator. While many > are pissed off at eg4, I won't touch tesla. > > and FYI you can buy the same inverter at Fortress. > > thanks everyone. > > jay > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my > experience. If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend > having tech support walk you through commissioning, check firmware, > etc. the first time. > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Two options: > > 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. > > 2. Replace existing inverter. > > I favor option 2. > > Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter > for replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter > system. > > New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing > stringing will probably not need to be modified. > > I'm new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to > these opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark > and it's working great! > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com [1] > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Is there a consensus as to > what equipment to use for adding battery backup to normal GT inverter? > > I've had a few people ask and I actually haven't done it. > > Thx > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [2] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [2] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [2] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [2] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [2] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com/ [2] http://re-wrenches.org/ [3] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Aug 11 17:17:21 2025 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2025 17:17:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> <97C46EBC-B28B-40B5-9EB6-2547B24C7B12@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dave, Well that's a new term I've never heard before. Please explain the Florida Hurricane Tap sir. Is this perhaps for generator use? Christopher On Mon, Aug 11, 2025 at 9:41 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I use the Sunny Island designation of "Protected Loads." > --- > > > > On 2025-08-09 13:54, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Yeah I've given up trying to correct people on that one. > > > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 11:26 AM, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Umm, just an FYI, I actually got dinged for labeling the AC output panel > from a battery backup inverter as "Critical Loads".. Critical loads > (Critical Branch circuits) are defined in article 100 of the NEC as > circuits associated with Patient Care.. AC loads from battery backup > inverters are more appropriately defined as "Dedicated Loads".. > Maybe someone could correct me here, but I'm under the impression most > garden-variety inverters are not rated for Critical Load applications. > db > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of William Miller via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, August 9, 2025 1:03 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* William Miller > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie > > Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power > through the load 'output' port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs free > for their roles as labelled. > > The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads > panel. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:50 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > True. if you want to do grid, gen, and AC Couple then you need a transfer > switch or contactor. > Likewise I haven't touched a Powerwall, nor an Enphase battery. > > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:36 AM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > One big issue with the AIO's is that you can't do grid, generator and ac > coupling to the best of my understanding > > I do like the idea of just removing the old GT inverter and stuffing that > into the AIO, elegant > > yes its my understanding that Tesla won't accept generator. While many > are pissed off at eg4, I won't touch tesla. > > and FYI you can buy the same inverter at Fortress. > > thanks everyone. > > jay > > > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my experience. > If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend having tech support > walk you through commissioning, check firmware, etc. the first time. > > > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Two options: > > 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. > > 2. Replace existing inverter. > > I favor option 2. > > Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter for > replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter system. > > New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing > stringing will probably not need to be modified. > > I'm new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to these > opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark and it's > working great! > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Is there a consensus as to what equipment to use for adding battery backup > to normal GT inverter? > > > > I've had a few people ask and I actually haven't done it. > > Thx > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Aug 11 18:47:23 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2025 18:47:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19cdaafd-10ea-456b-9db9-945aa24070fc@entech-engineering.com> That part about utilities controlling the systems caught my eye. Most Utility Commissions are in the pocket of the utilities in my opinion. In Rhode Island, it is almost impossible to get intervenor status.  Then you are relegated to Public Comment. The "Consumer Advocate" has never in my memory in30 years advocated on the side of the "consumer". I will tell you that in this State, the utilities think they own your investment, and Block Island Power Company's Jeff Wright President (from Velco}, and the Chair of the Board MacMullan presented extremely poor analysis to change the customer generation policies.  The PUC yawned and gave it a pass. They didn't even investigate the analysis. The utility based it all upon ONE customer, while I presented a amalgamation of 15.  Not even discussed. So, if you have such a similar Commission, you need to make sure you do as much public outreach to more the chains.  We are so small, it is just about impossible.  Chris Warfel On 8/9/2025 7:40 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote: > > If you are using the inverter with nothing connected to the > high-voltage DC (PV) bus, AC Coupling is not recommended. > > The MNP AIO can operate as a standard string inverter, with or without > a battery. Unlike most other AIOs, it can run with both a generator > and AC-coupled inputs at the same time (personally tested). However, > the AC-coupled input must be smaller (lower output) than the generator > input; otherwise, the generator may drop offline. This limitation is > in place to protect the generator’s control system. > > A side note: > > As with all inverters, firmware remains a major consideration. Fixes > and adjustments can sometimes introduce new issues. As inverter > technology advances—and with some states requiring utilities to > control customer-owned equipment—firmware complexity will likely > continue to grow, creating ongoing challenges for installers. We are > all in for more challenges as we move forward. > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 5:27 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Thx William > > The instructions specifically say that AC coupling only is not > recommended. > To me I read that in terms of the inverter wanting DC solar as well > > Can you explain what’s going on. > Which is the correct way to install it and why does it say not > recommended > > Thx > Jay > >> On Aug 9, 2025, at 3:13 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> With the MNP AIO You can use an AC couple array at the same time >> as the Generator. But.... If the AC coupled input is larger than >> the Generator input, the Gen set relay will open to protect the >> Generator. >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 3:12 PM Jay via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Thx I looked it up. >> But according to midnite they don’t recommend a only ac >> coupled system. >> >> Jay >> >>> On Aug 9, 2025, at 12:53 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> The Midnite Power AIO has inputs for grid, generator, AC >>> coupling and another smart load. I have not used both >>> generator and AC coupling to see how it acts if both are >>> active at the same time, but at least the inputs are there >>> for them both. >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 2:33 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Jason, Wrenches, >>> Consensus well that may not be the correct word to use, >>> personally l have used Solark for retrofitting systems >>> that already have GT type inverters, if you go with AC >>> Coupling then the gen set connection is a little more >>> complicated but very doable. >>> Funtimes >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 11:26 AM Jason Szumlanski via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> I go with "Backup Loads" on my drawings. >>> >>> Tesla will not charge from a generator. But you can >>> obviously have a generator power the loads via a >>> transfer switch if the battery is completely >>> depleted. It's not the best solution, for sure. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 1:57 PM jay via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Yeah I’ve given up trying to correct people on >>> that one. >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Aug 9, 2025, at 11:26 AM, Foxfire Energy via >>>> RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Umm, just an FYI, I actually got dinged for >>>> labeling the AC output panel from a battery >>>> backup inverter as "Critical Loads".. Critical >>>> loads (Critical Branch circuits) are defined in >>>> article 100 of the NEC as circuits associated >>>> with Patient Care.. AC loads from battery >>>> backup inverters are more appropriately defined >>>> as "Dedicated Loads".. >>>> Maybe someone could correct me here, but I'm >>>> under the impression most garden-variety >>>> inverters are not rated for Critical Load >>>> applications. >>>> db >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>>> on >>>> behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches >>>> >>>> *Sent:*Saturday, August 9, 2025 1:03 PM >>>> *To:*RE-wrenches >>>> >>>> *Cc:*William Miller >>>> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to >>>> grid tie >>>> Correct me if I'm wrong:  I believe AIOs can >>>> accept AC coupled power through the load >>>> ‘output’ port. That leaves the Grid and Gen >>>> inputs free for their roles as labelled. >>>> >>>> The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker >>>> in the critical loads panel. >>>> >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> Miller Solar.com >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:50 AM david quattro >>>> via RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> True.  if you want to do grid, gen, and AC >>>> Couple then you need a transfer switch or >>>> contactor. >>>>    Likewise I haven’t touched a Powerwall, >>>> nor an Enphase battery. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:36 AM jay via >>>> RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> One big issue with the AIO’s is that >>>> you can’t do grid, generator and ac >>>> coupling to the best of my understanding >>>> >>>> I do like the idea of just removing the >>>> old GT inverter and stuffing that into >>>> the AIO, elegant >>>> >>>> yes its my understanding that Tesla >>>> won’t accept generator. While many are >>>> pissed off at eg4, I won’t touch tesla. >>>> >>>> and FYI you can buy the same inverter >>>> at Fortress. >>>> >>>> thanks everyone. >>>> >>>> jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone >>>>> Houck via RE-wrenches >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work >>>>> great for AC coupling in my >>>>> experience. If anyone is new to "All >>>>> In One" inverters I recommend having >>>>> tech support walk you through >>>>> commissioning, check firmware, etc. >>>>> the first time. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William >>>>> Miller via RE-wrenches >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Two options: >>>>> >>>>> 1. AC couple existing inverter to >>>>> a battery capable inverter. >>>>> >>>>> 2. Replace existing inverter. >>>>> >>>>> I favor option 2. >>>>> >>>>> Option 1 is only preferred if >>>>> gaining access to the existing >>>>> inverter for replacement is >>>>> difficult. An example would be a >>>>> micro-inverter system. >>>>> >>>>> New AIO inverters allow true high >>>>> voltage PV input so the existing >>>>> stringing will probably not need >>>>> to be modified. >>>>> >>>>> I’m new to this so type of upgrade >>>>> so I welcome any corrections to >>>>> these opinions.  I did replace a >>>>> Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul >>>>> Ark and it’s working great! >>>>> >>>>> William Miller >>>>> Miller Solar.com >>>>> 805-438-5600 >>>>> www.millersolar.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay >>>>> via RE-wrenches >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Is there a consensus as to >>>>> what equipment to use for >>>>> adding battery backup to >>>>> normal GT inverter? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I’ve had a few people ask and >>>>> I actually haven’t done it. >>>>> >>>>> Thx >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues >>>>> here:http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List >>>>> Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email >>>>> address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives >>>>> for searching. When one >>>>> doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update >>>>> participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues >>>>> here:http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List >>>>> Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & >>>>> settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for >>>>> searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>> try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues >>>>> here:http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List >>>>> Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & >>>>> settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for >>>>> searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues >>>> here:http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List >>>> Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for >>>> searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues >>>> here:http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. >>>> When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: >>>> http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When >>>> one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: >>> http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one >>> doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>> doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Aug 12 10:05:55 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2025 10:05:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: <01EFBBA6-F9ED-4239-B582-3B9DF343170F@gmail.com> <97C46EBC-B28B-40B5-9EB6-2547B24C7B12@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d7a5479a54bef6624fb46731f1f7671@redwoodalliance.org> 17.1 Connection to the Off-Grid Power System (Protected Loads Panel) SI5048U-TUS121440 | TBEN-SI5048U | Version 4.0 I've seen it elsewhere in SI literature also. It seems like a good descriptive designation that won't interfere with NEC definitions. _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-08-11 17:17, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: > Dave, > > Well that's a new term I've never heard before. Please explain the > Florida Hurricane Tap sir. Is this perhaps for generator use? > > Christopher > > On Mon, Aug 11, 2025 at 9:41 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I use the Sunny Island designation of "Protected Loads." > > --- > > On 2025-08-09 13:54, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Yeah I've given up trying to correct people on that one. > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 11:26 AM, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Umm, just an FYI, I actually got dinged for labeling the AC output > panel from a battery backup inverter as "Critical Loads".. Critical > loads (Critical Branch circuits) are defined in article 100 of the NEC > as circuits associated with Patient Care.. AC loads from battery backup > inverters are more appropriately defined as "Dedicated Loads".. > Maybe someone could correct me here, but I'm under the impression most > garden-variety inverters are not rated for Critical Load applications. > db > > ------------------------- > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf > of William Miller via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, August 9, 2025 1:03 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: William Miller > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie > > Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power > through the load 'output' port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs > free for their roles as labelled. > > The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads > panel. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com [1] > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:50 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches > wrote: > True. if you want to do grid, gen, and AC Couple then you need a > transfer switch or contactor. > Likewise I haven't touched a Powerwall, nor an Enphase battery. > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 9:36 AM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > One big issue with the AIO's is that you can't do grid, generator and > ac coupling to the best of my understanding > > I do like the idea of just removing the old GT inverter and stuffing > that into the AIO, elegant > > yes its my understanding that Tesla won't accept generator. While many > are pissed off at eg4, I won't touch tesla. > > and FYI you can buy the same inverter at Fortress. > > thanks everyone. > > jay > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 10:28 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Midnite AIO and Sol-Ark both work great for AC coupling in my > experience. If anyone is new to "All In One" inverters I recommend > having tech support walk you through commissioning, check firmware, > etc. the first time. > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025, 8:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Two options: > > 1. AC couple existing inverter to a battery capable inverter. > > 2. Replace existing inverter. > > I favor option 2. > > Option 1 is only preferred if gaining access to the existing inverter > for replacement is difficult. An example would be a micro-inverter > system. > > New AIO inverters allow true high voltage PV input so the existing > stringing will probably not need to be modified. > > I'm new to this so type of upgrade so I welcome any corrections to > these opinions. I did replace a Sunny Boy in my shop with a Soul Ark > and it's working great! > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com [1] > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:26 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Is there a consensus as to > what equipment to use for adding battery backup to normal GT inverter? > > I've had a few people ask and I actually haven't done it. > > Thx > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [2] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [2] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [2] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [2] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [2] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer's Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [4] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com/ [2] http://re-wrenches.org/ [3] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [4] http://www.solarandwindfx.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 08:13:05 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 08:13:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s conflict with FM100 Message-ID: At a service call yesterday the customer reported that his 2 FM100's stop charging with float lights lit when the batteries are very low (46V). When he unplugs the MATE3s charging goes back to normal. SInce the mate is off and he doesn't have an external TriMetric or other current reading device, he called me to check if the solar was in fact putting out current. My clamp meter confirmed that the FM 100's were both working fine until we plugged the MATE back in. I tried a new MATE with the same result. He has a HUB 10 but I didn't have one with me to try. Any Idea what the problem might be?. I checked all charging parameters. Any suggestions? John Blittersdorf Of Grid Vermont -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 08:35:24 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 06:35:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s conflict with FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi John Is there a FNDC in the system? And I’m presuming this is a new issue with the system being some years old? Jay > On Aug 14, 2025, at 6:14 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > At a service call yesterday the customer reported that his 2 FM100's stop charging with float lights lit when the batteries are very low (46V). When he unplugs the MATE3s charging goes back to normal. SInce the mate is off and he doesn't have an external TriMetric or other current reading device, he called me to check if the solar was in fact putting out current. My clamp meter confirmed that the FM 100's were both working fine until we plugged the MATE back in. I tried a new MATE with the same result. He has a HUB 10 but I didn't have one with me to try. Any Idea what the problem might be?. I checked all charging parameters. Any suggestions? > > John Blittersdorf > Of Grid Vermont > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 08:54:41 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 06:54:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac ecogen 15 Message-ID: <4E86FE30-4310-457F-A81C-552FC4425DED@gmail.com> Does anyone know how to put the ecogen back into offgrid mode? Newer version with digital control. Customer pressed too many buttons The manual doesn’t actually say how. Thanks Jay From garyhsolari at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 09:19:43 2025 From: garyhsolari at gmail.com (Gary Handelin) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 06:19:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac ecogen 15 In-Reply-To: <4E86FE30-4310-457F-A81C-552FC4425DED@gmail.com> References: <4E86FE30-4310-457F-A81C-552FC4425DED@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, Get me the serial number for the generator. I can walk you through it and contact generac if there is a problem. Gary On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 5:55 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Does anyone know how to put the ecogen back into offgrid mode? > Newer version with digital control. > > Customer pressed too many buttons > > The manual doesn’t actually say how. > > Thanks > Jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Aug 14 10:19:43 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 10:19:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Residential_credits=3A_buy_now=2C_instal?= =?utf-8?b?bCBsYXRlcuKApj8/Pz8/?= In-Reply-To: <52A5BD7B-0771-486A-8D20-648F06FA1995@gmail.com> References: <52A5BD7B-0771-486A-8D20-648F06FA1995@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi All, I am reviving this thread for a moment regarding a non-profit site. Does anyone know whether and how the direct pay provision for non-profits was affected by the recent big ugly bill? I am wondering whether they could still apply for direct pay next year if the project was completed at the end of this year? Or if this is one of those things that are sunsetting a little bit later, can they still apply for the direct pay provision if it is installed in the spring of next year? I appreciate the groups knowledge here! Cheers, Dave On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 2:02 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I think we also need to be very cautious in what people tell potential > clients as Trump could issue an executive order changing all of this. > > I read he’s making changes to the commercial side of things. > > Jay > > On Jul 18, 2025, at 11:27 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > So what is the text of subparagraph (B)?? Obviously there is a > difference of opinion amongst expert interpreters. > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 11:43 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Unfortunately I think the actual language of 25D defines expenditure >> differently than an exchange of money, and would imagine it will be >> enforced by this administration... >> >> >> >> From >> https://www.solarinsure.com/final-changes-to-solar-tax-credit-from-h-r-1 >> and quoted is directly from language of 25D (I think the callout from 25D >> is actually (e)(8)(A) ): >> >> >> >> An interesting note with the amendment is the language “with expenditures >> made after December 31st”. Some have postulated that the change in language >> here could mean that homeowners could take the credit if they simply paid >> for the system before the end of 2025. This is clarified in 26 USC >> 25D(8)(A) >> >> : >> >> >> >> *“Except as provided in subparagraph (B), an expenditure with respect to >> an item shall be treated as made when the original installation of the item >> is completed.“* >> >> >> >> Unfortunately for homeowners, this means that the system does need to be >> fully installed by the end of 2025 in order to still claim the credit. >> >> >> >> ---------- >> >> >> *Michael Mahon* (he/him) >> Solar Academy Manager | SMA America >> >> +1 916 918 9412 >> SMA America | Solar Academy >> | TechTip Channel >> >> | Upcoming Academy Trainings >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC >> confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the >> intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or >> any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not >> the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and >> permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any >> attachments thereto. Thank you. >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Amos Post via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2025 9:26 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Amos Post >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential credits: buy now, install >> later…????? >> >> >> >> If this is the case, when would the system need to be installed by??? >> There must be a deadline…? >> >> >> >> >> Amos Post >> Integrity Energy >> W 802.763.7023 >> C 802.291.2188 >> ienergyVT.com >> >> Facebook >> >> >> >> On Jul 17, 2025, at 7:39 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> If this is accurate, that will make a big difference. I'm getting >> overwhelmed with requests for systems. >> >> >> >> Howie >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 4:08 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> >> Residential tax credit: >> >> >> >> >> https://pv-magazine-usa.us13.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2790e780a1533f4bc05c8679a&id= >> >> >> >> >> Apparently, the bills wording allows a full purchase or procurement of a >> residential system to be eligible for the tax credits if purchased before >> they expire at the end of 2025. Systems do not need to be installed before >> the end of the year. >> >> >> >> If accurate, no “placed in service” 2025 deadline. >> >> >> >> “With respect to the Jan 2026 end of Section 25D(residential tax credit), >> experts agree that the determination of whether a homeowner qualifies has >> shifted from the previous “placed in service” test to the bill’s new >> “expenditures made” test.” >> >> “If the homeowner pays for the installation in 2025, they could lock in >> the credit, even if the system is placed in service later,” said Bryen >> Alperin, Partner & Managing Director at Foss & Company." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 11:04 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> This might be related to the technical correction to wording of 48E on >> percentages of domestic content?? >> >> >> >> - Correction to Domestic Content Percentages Under 48E: The domestic >> content applicable percentage under 48E for qualified facilities and energy >> storage technology would be revised to match current 45Y as follows: >> >> >> - 40% (or 20% for offshore wind) if construction begins before June >> 16, 2025; >> - 45% (or 27.5% for offshore wind) if construction begins after >> June 16, 2025, and before Jan. 1, 2026; >> - 50% (or 35% for offshore wind) if construction begins during >> 2026; and >> - 55% if construction begins after Dec. 31, 2026. >> >> >> >> >> >> This content percentage wont matter to residential system owners – 25D >> still goes away at EOY, no domestic content requirements... >> >> Only folks leasing systems can get the credit, THEN domestic content >> matters. PV Magazine has good summary article. >> >> >> https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/07/10/what-the-budget-bill-means-for-energy-storage-tax-credit-eligibility/ >> >> >> >> Wannabe residential battery owners will likely feel the most immediate >> impact of the OBBB. >> >> Updates to the 25D residential solar tax credit, which covers solar >> panels, solar water heaters and related property like home battery storage >> systems, have significantly shortened the timeline for homeowners to access >> the credit. >> >> Now, home batteries will only qualify for the 30% tax credit if they’re >> purchased and installed by the end of the year before the credit phases out >> entirely. >> >> There is a bright spot: residential systems leased from third parties >> will remain eligible for tax credits beyond 2025, as they rely on 48E >> instead of 25D. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Michael Mahon* (he/him) >> Solar Academy Manager | SMA America >> >> +1 916 918 9412 >> SMA America | Solar Academy >> | TechTip Channel >> >> | Upcoming Academy Trainings >> >> >> >> >> >> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC >> confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the >> intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or >> any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not >> the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and >> permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any >> attachments thereto. Thank you. >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 17, 2025 8:11 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* scot.arey at solarcentex.com >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Is there a domestic content reqt for batteries >> effective now? For Residential? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I consider myself mostly pretty aware of policy issues that effect >> business but this paragraph in a Seeking Alpha investment article caught my >> eye. Is there a new domestic content reqt for batteries in residential >> installations? >> >> >> >> "The higher domestic content batteries comply with the new requirement in >> the U.S. federal budget law, which retroactively enforces a 45% >> U.S.-sourced materials threshold for solar and battery products starting >> June 16, 2025." >> https://seekingalpha.com/news/4468352-enphase-energy-begins-shipments-of-iq-battery-5p-with-higher-domestic-content#source=first_level_url%3Aportfolio%7Ccontent_type%3Aall%7Csection%3Aportfolio_content_unit%7Csection_asset%3Alatest%7Cline%3A1 >> >> >> >> >> Enphase Energy begins shipments of IQ Battery 5P with higher domestic >> content - Seeking Alpha >> >> >> Discover Enphase Energy's new IQ Battery 5P with increased U.S.-sourced >> materials, complying with updated federal standards. >> >> >> *seekingalpha.com* >> >> >> >> >> >> Wanting to make sure I'm not setting up this years customers for issues >> getting the 30% Federal tax credit/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Howard "Scot" Arey >> * >> >> *Owner, Solar CenTex >> * >> >> >> >> >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> >> >> TECL 29755 >> >> >> 254-300-1228 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: *http://re-wrenches.org* >> >> List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> *https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/* >> *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> *http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> *http://www.members.re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: *http://re-wrenches.org* >> >> List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> *https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/* >> *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> *http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> *http://www.members.re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: *http://re-wrenches.org* >> >> List Address: *RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org* >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> *https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/* >> *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org* >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> *http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm* >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> *http://www.members.re-wrenches.org* >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Thu Aug 14 10:45:54 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 07:45:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: While the AC coupled PV system can be added to the AC backed up loads panel, this defeats a lot of the functionality of a dedicated AC coupled PV array input on the AIOs and is not recommended by most of them. In theory, yes, it works on most inverters to just add it as a negative AC load -- and I've even AC coupled an old Trace SW, and it works fine on that, despite being designed and built before AC coupling was thought of. But, if it's just on the AC loads output, the inverter does not have the ability to drop the AC PV array separately from the load if it needs to for high battery charge regulating, does not have the ability to measure the PV array input on monitoring, and may have other issues. Zeke > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie > > Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power > through the load 'output' port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs free > for their roles as labelled. > > The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads > panel. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 10:56:36 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 07:56:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In case anyone is curious about the practicality of AC coupling with the MN AIO, I have three sites(one being my home/beta test site) running AC coupled (without any DC PV) working flawlessly. All connected through the AC coupling terminals. All are on early firmware versions and are solaredge inverters...I'm sure functionality has only improved with the recent FW updates. Just my experience. I don't want to encourage ones to do anything counter to what Zeke and Logan are advising. Sunny Regards, On Thu, Aug 14, 2025, 7:46 AM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > While the AC coupled PV system can be added to the AC backed up loads > panel, this defeats a lot of the functionality of a dedicated AC coupled PV > array input on the AIOs and is not recommended by most of them. In > theory, yes, it works on most inverters to just add it as a negative AC > load -- and I've even AC coupled an old Trace SW, and it works fine on > that, despite being designed and built before AC coupling was thought of. > > But, if it's just on the AC loads output, the inverter does not have the > ability to drop the AC PV array separately from the load if it needs to for > high battery charge regulating, does not have the ability to measure the PV > array input on monitoring, and may have other issues. > > Zeke > > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie > > > > Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power > > through the load 'output' port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs free > > for their roles as labelled. > > > > The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads > > panel. > > > > > > William Miller > > Miller Solar.com > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Aug 14 11:10:03 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 08:10:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I never said it was a good idea. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 7:48 AM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > While the AC coupled PV system can be added to the AC backed up loads > panel, this defeats a lot of the functionality of a dedicated AC coupled PV > array input on the AIOs and is not recommended by most of them. In > theory, yes, it works on most inverters to just add it as a negative AC > load -- and I've even AC coupled an old Trace SW, and it works fine on > that, despite being designed and built before AC coupling was thought of. > > But, if it's just on the AC loads output, the inverter does not have the > ability to drop the AC PV array separately from the load if it needs to for > high battery charge regulating, does not have the ability to measure the PV > array input on monitoring, and may have other issues. > > Zeke > > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie > > > > Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power > > through the load 'output' port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs free > > for their roles as labelled. > > > > The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads > > panel. > > > > > > William Miller > > Miller Solar.com > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 14 12:12:50 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 12:12:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I like data. Not being able to measure AC coupled PV input is far from my ideal in my opinion, but when there is no other practical choice, I guess I would do it. In fact, I have done ita couple of times. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Aug 14, 2025, 10:48 AM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > While the AC coupled PV system can be added to the AC backed up loads > panel, this defeats a lot of the functionality of a dedicated AC coupled PV > array input on the AIOs and is not recommended by most of them. In > theory, yes, it works on most inverters to just add it as a negative AC > load -- and I've even AC coupled an old Trace SW, and it works fine on > that, despite being designed and built before AC coupling was thought of. > > But, if it's just on the AC loads output, the inverter does not have the > ability to drop the AC PV array separately from the load if it needs to for > high battery charge regulating, does not have the ability to measure the PV > array input on monitoring, and may have other issues. > > Zeke > > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie > > > > Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power > > through the load 'output' port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs free > > for their roles as labelled. > > > > The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads > > panel. > > > > > > William Miller > > Miller Solar.com > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Aug 14 12:20:44 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 09:20:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I suppose one could add an E-gauge system with CTs in appropriate locations. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 9:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I like data. Not being able to measure AC coupled PV input is far from my > ideal in my opinion, but when there is no other practical choice, I guess I > would do it. In fact, I have done ita couple of times. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Thu, Aug 14, 2025, 10:48 AM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> While the AC coupled PV system can be added to the AC backed up loads >> panel, this defeats a lot of the functionality of a dedicated AC coupled PV >> array input on the AIOs and is not recommended by most of them. In >> theory, yes, it works on most inverters to just add it as a negative AC >> load -- and I've even AC coupled an old Trace SW, and it works fine on >> that, despite being designed and built before AC coupling was thought of. >> >> But, if it's just on the AC loads output, the inverter does not have the >> ability to drop the AC PV array separately from the load if it needs to for >> high battery charge regulating, does not have the ability to measure the PV >> array input on monitoring, and may have other issues. >> >> Zeke >> >> > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie >> > >> > Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power >> > through the load 'output' port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs free >> > for their roles as labelled. >> > >> > The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads >> > panel. >> > >> > >> > William Miller >> > Miller Solar.com >> > 805-438-5600 >> > www.millersolar.com >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 12:53:17 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 09:53:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58C16B5A-4615-48FE-8559-A1B127698284@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Thu Aug 14 13:35:14 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 10:35:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's actually what I prefer doing on most systems, to have exactly the monitoring I want, at higher precision than the AIO's give, and also independent of the AIO's server, wherever that may be. And accessible on the LAN, with data storage, if their internet blips out too. But, not all customers can take the cost of a good egauge setup, which tends to run at least $2k if you start adding DC ct's and voltage transducers to monitor the MPPT inputs. $1k even for a basic AC monitoring setup. Zeke On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 9:20 AM William Miller wrote: > I suppose one could add an E-gauge system with CTs in appropriate > locations. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 9:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I like data. Not being able to measure AC coupled PV input is far from my >> ideal in my opinion, but when there is no other practical choice, I guess I >> would do it. In fact, I have done ita couple of times. >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Thu Aug 14 14:08:04 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 14:08:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I also use Eguage, But for the reasons you mentioned ($$$), I also fully recommend Emporia If not needing DC. It is really inexpensive and Just works, has 1 second sample rate. But, it looks like they no longer offer just the standalone MAINS logger without all the branch circuit CT's. On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 1:36 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That's actually what I prefer doing on most systems, to have exactly the > monitoring I want, at higher precision than the AIO's give, and also > independent of the AIO's server, wherever that may be. And accessible on > the LAN, with data storage, if their internet blips out too. But, not all > customers can take the cost of a good egauge setup, which tends to run at > least $2k if you start adding DC ct's and voltage transducers to monitor > the MPPT inputs. $1k even for a basic AC monitoring setup. > > Zeke > > On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 9:20 AM William Miller > wrote: > >> I suppose one could add an E-gauge system with CTs in appropriate >> locations. >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 9:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I like data. Not being able to measure AC coupled PV input is far from >>> my ideal in my opinion, but when there is no other practical choice, I >>> guess I would do it. In fact, I have done ita couple of times. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Thu Aug 14 14:10:50 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 14:10:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Correction They still do. This is what I have customers install when they want to track all usage. Have installed dozens of them with zero issues. https://a.co/d/8BLhewI On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 1:36 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That's actually what I prefer doing on most systems, to have exactly the > monitoring I want, at higher precision than the AIO's give, and also > independent of the AIO's server, wherever that may be. And accessible on > the LAN, with data storage, if their internet blips out too. But, not all > customers can take the cost of a good egauge setup, which tends to run at > least $2k if you start adding DC ct's and voltage transducers to monitor > the MPPT inputs. $1k even for a basic AC monitoring setup. > > Zeke > > On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 9:20 AM William Miller > wrote: > >> I suppose one could add an E-gauge system with CTs in appropriate >> locations. >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 9:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I like data. Not being able to measure AC coupled PV input is far from >>> my ideal in my opinion, but when there is no other practical choice, I >>> guess I would do it. In fact, I have done ita couple of times. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Aug 14 14:34:39 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 18:34:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow - what a nice find. EGauge just got too pricey and setting it up reminded me of FORTRAN in college. Thanks for sharing. Now to find out if my utility might be compatible with the device that uses AMI data. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Bryce via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2025 1:10 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Bryce ; Zeke Yewdall Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie Correction They still do. This is what I have customers install when they want to track all usage. Have installed dozens of them with zero issues. https://a.co/d/8BLhewI On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 1:36 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches > wrote: That's actually what I prefer doing on most systems, to have exactly the monitoring I want, at higher precision than the AIO's give, and also independent of the AIO's server, wherever that may be. And accessible on the LAN, with data storage, if their internet blips out too. But, not all customers can take the cost of a good egauge setup, which tends to run at least $2k if you start adding DC ct's and voltage transducers to monitor the MPPT inputs. $1k even for a basic AC monitoring setup. Zeke On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 9:20 AM William Miller > wrote: I suppose one could add an E-gauge system with CTs in appropriate locations. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 9:16 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: I like data. Not being able to measure AC coupled PV input is far from my ideal in my opinion, but when there is no other practical choice, I guess I would do it. In fact, I have done ita couple of times. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Aug 14 16:24:05 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 20:24:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody use the Texas Oncor eTrack IA portal? Why can't I add an Enphase 5P battery? Message-ID: Any other users of the Oncor eTrack IA portal? If so, is there some new magic code to enter an Enphase 5P battery. No Enphase battery shows up in the drop down meus and I know it is listed on the California list that is the database source. P.S. I used to not be a Enphase ESS fan but this 5P battery means we can put in 30kwh of storage and achieve 23kw of backup power with surge on top of that. It's changed my mind and I have not even used the 4th gen yet. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 [cid:da3f59c4-5a82-4af1-b21e-71d6b224d927] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 16:31:38 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 14:31:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 14 18:37:52 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2025 18:37:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anybody use the Texas Oncor eTrack IA portal? Why can't I add an Enphase 5P battery? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don't get too excited about the 4th Gen 10C batteries. Unless you can take advantage of the Meter Collar with your utility, there is nothing objectively better about it. It isn't more powerful, faster, cheaper, easier, or prettier. In fact, it juts out from the side wall of a garage like an upper cabinet. They went the wrong direction with this product in my opinion. We will not sell it - sticking with the 5P. Sorry for hijacking the thread. And thanks for mentioning Oncor. I need to read up on that. Looks interesting. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 4:25 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Any other users of the Oncor eTrack IA portal? If so, is there some new > magic code to enter an Enphase 5P battery. No Enphase battery shows up in > the drop down meus and I know it is listed on the California list that is > the database source. > > P.S. I used to not be a Enphase ESS fan but this 5P battery means we can > put in 30kwh of storage and achieve 23kw of backup power with surge on top > of that. It's changed my mind and I have not even used the 4th gen yet. > > *Howard "Scot" Arey* > *Owner, Solar CenTex* > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > TECL 29755 > 254-300-1228 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Aug 15 00:59:03 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 00:59:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s conflict with FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, yes there is a FNDC. It is an older system that had been working OK.? On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 8:37 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi John > > Is there a FNDC in the system? > > And I’m presuming this is a new issue with the system being some years old? > > Jay > > > On Aug 14, 2025, at 6:14 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > >  > > At a service call yesterday the customer reported that his 2 FM100's > stop charging with float lights lit when the batteries are very low (46V). > When he unplugs the MATE3s charging goes back to normal. SInce the mate is > off and he doesn't have an external TriMetric or other current reading > device, he called me to check if the solar was in fact putting out > current. My clamp meter confirmed that the FM 100's were both working fine > until we plugged the MATE back in. I tried a new MATE with the same > result. He has a HUB 10 but I didn't have one with me to try. Any Idea > what the problem might be?. I checked all charging parameters. Any > suggestions? > > > > John Blittersdorf > > Of Grid Vermont > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 15 08:44:42 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 06:44:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s conflict with FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D095FEC-9BD1-435D-B417-019F57D6B628@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Aug 15 11:01:38 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 08:01:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: AC coupling is last resort. I sure as heck do not want to deal with it! I give them your phone number 😉 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-08-14 7:45 am, Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches wrote: > While the AC coupled PV system can be added to the AC backed up loads > panel, this defeats a lot of the functionality of a dedicated AC > coupled PV array input on the AIOs and is not recommended by most of > them. In theory, yes, it works on most inverters to just add it as a > negative AC load -- and I've even AC coupled an old Trace SW, and it > works fine on that, despite being designed and built before AC coupling > was thought of. > > But, if it's just on the AC loads output, the inverter does not have > the ability to drop the AC PV array separately from the load if it > needs to for high battery charge regulating, does not have the ability > to measure the PV array input on monitoring, and may have other issues. > > Zeke > >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding battery to grid tie >> >> Correct me if I'm wrong: I believe AIOs can accept AC coupled power >> through the load 'output' port. That leaves the Grid and Gen inputs >> free >> for their roles as labelled. >> >> The AC coupled inverters connect via a breaker in the critical loads >> panel. >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com [1] >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Aug 15 11:06:38 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 08:06:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Residential_credits=3A_buy_now=2C_instal?= =?utf-8?b?bCBsYXRlcuKApj8/Pz8/?= In-Reply-To: References: <52A5BD7B-0771-486A-8D20-648F06FA1995@gmail.com> Message-ID: OBBB for me is all residential must be on your Federal form 5695 by December 31. New construction residential energy must be on 5695 the following December. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [12]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [13] [12] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-08-14 7:19 am, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi All, > > I am reviving this thread for a moment regarding a non-profit site. > Does anyone know whether and how the direct pay provision for > non-profits was affected by the recent big ugly bill? I am wondering > whether they could still apply for direct pay next year if the project > was completed at the end of this year? Or if this is one of those > things that are sunsetting a little bit later, can they still apply for > the direct pay provision if it is installed in the spring of next year? > > I appreciate the groups knowledge here! > Cheers, > Dave > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 2:02 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I think we also need to be very cautious in what people tell potential > clients as Trump could issue an executive order changing all of this. > > I read he's making changes to the commercial side of things. > > Jay > > On Jul 18, 2025, at 11:27 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > So what is the text of subparagraph (B)?? Obviously there is a > difference of opinion amongst expert interpreters. > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 11:43 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Unfortunately I think the actual language of 25D defines expenditure > differently than an exchange of money, and would imagine it will be > enforced by this administration... > > From > https://www.solarinsure.com/final-changes-to-solar-tax-credit-from-h-r-1 > [1] and quoted is directly from language of 25D (I think the callout > from 25D is actually (e)(8)(A) ): > > An interesting note with the amendment is the language "with > expenditures made after December 31st". Some have postulated that the > change in language here could mean that homeowners could take the > credit if they simply paid for the system before the end of 2025. This > is clarified in 26 USC 25D(8)(A) [2]: > > _"Except as provided in subparagraph (B), an expenditure with respect > to an item shall be treated as made when the original installation of > the item is completed."_ > > _ _ > > Unfortunately for homeowners, this means that the system does need to > be fully installed by the end of 2025 in order to still claim the > credit. > > ---------- > > Michael Mahon (he/him) > Solar Academy Manager | SMA America > > +1 916 918 9412 > SMA America [3] | Solar Academy [4] | TechTip Channel [5] | Upcoming > Academy Trainings [6] > > [7] > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email > (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you > are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately > and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and > any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Amos Post via RE-wrenches > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2025 9:26 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Amos Post > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential credits: buy now, install > later...????? > > If this is the case, when would the system need to be installed by??? > There must be a deadline...? > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com [8] > > Facebook [9] > > On Jul 17, 2025, at 7:39 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > If this is accurate, that will make a big difference. I'm getting > overwhelmed with requests for systems. > > Howie > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025, 4:08 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Residential tax credit: > > https://pv-magazine-usa.us13.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2790e780a1533f4bc05c8679a&id= > [10] > > Apparently, the bills wording allows a full purchase or procurement of > a residential system to be eligible for the tax credits if purchased > before they expire at the end of 2025. Systems do not need to be > installed before the end of the year. > > If accurate, no "placed in service" 2025 deadline. > > "With respect to the Jan 2026 end of Section 25D(residential tax > credit), experts agree that the determination of whether a homeowner > qualifies has shifted from the previous "placed in service" test to the > bill's new "expenditures made" test." > > "If the homeowner pays for the installation in 2025, they could lock in > the credit, even if the system is placed in service later," said Bryen > Alperin, Partner & Managing Director at Foss & Company." > > Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar > > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > > _Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!_ > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 11:04 AM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > This might be related to the technical correction to wording of 48E on > percentages of domestic content?? > > * Correction to Domestic Content Percentages Under 48E: The domestic > content applicable percentage under 48E for qualified facilities and > energy storage technology would be revised to match current 45Y as > follows: > > * 40% (or 20% for offshore wind) if construction begins before June 16, > 2025; > * 45% (or 27.5% for offshore wind) if construction begins after June > 16, 2025, and before Jan. 1, 2026; > * 50% (or 35% for offshore wind) if construction begins during 2026; > and > * 55% if construction begins after Dec. 31, 2026. > > This content percentage wont matter to residential system owners - 25D > still goes away at EOY, no domestic content requirements... > > Only folks leasing systems can get the credit, THEN domestic content > matters. PV Magazine has good summary article. > > https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/07/10/what-the-budget-bill-means-for-energy-storage-tax-credit-eligibility/ > > Wannabe residential battery owners will likely feel the most immediate > impact of the OBBB. > > Updates to the 25D residential solar tax credit, which covers solar > panels, solar water heaters and related property like home battery > storage systems, have significantly shortened the timeline for > homeowners to access the credit. > > Now, home batteries will only qualify for the 30% tax credit if they're > purchased and installed by the end of the year before the credit phases > out entirely. > > There is a bright spot: residential systems leased from third parties > will remain eligible for tax credits beyond 2025, as they rely on 48E > instead of 25D. > > Michael Mahon (he/him) > Solar Academy Manager | SMA America > > +1 916 918 9412 > SMA America [3] | Solar Academy [4] | TechTip Channel [5] | Upcoming > Academy Trainings [6] > > [7] > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email > (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you > are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately > and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and > any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2025 8:11 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: scot.arey at solarcentex.com > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is there a domestic content reqt for batteries > effective now? For Residential? > > I consider myself mostly pretty aware of policy issues that effect > business but this paragraph in a Seeking Alpha investment article > caught my eye. Is there a new domestic content reqt for batteries in > residential installations? > > "The higher domestic content batteries comply with the new requirement > in the U.S. federal budget law, which retroactively enforces a 45% > U.S.-sourced materials threshold for solar and battery products > starting June 16, 2025." > https://seekingalpha.com/news/4468352-enphase-energy-begins-shipments-of-iq-battery-5p-with-higher-domestic-content#source=first_level_url%3Aportfolio%7Ccontent_type%3Aall%7Csection%3Aportfolio_content_unit%7Csection_asset%3Alatest%7Cline%3A1 > [11] > > Enphase Energy begins shipments of IQ Battery 5P with higher domestic > content - Seeking Alpha [11] > > Discover Enphase Energy's new IQ Battery 5P with increased U.S.-sourced > materials, complying with updated federal standards. [11] > > seekingalpha.com [11] > > [11] > > Wanting to make sure I'm not setting up this years customers for issues > getting the 30% Federal tax credit/ [11] > > [11] > > [11] > > Howard "Scot" Arey [11] > > Owner, Solar CenTex [11] > > [11] > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional [11] > > TECL 29755 [11] > > 254-300-1228 [11] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC _Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!_ dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://www.solarinsure.com/final-changes-to-solar-tax-credit-from-h-r-1 [2] https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:26%20section:25D%20edition:prelim) [3] https://www.sma-america.com/ [4] https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/ [5] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoiOll7F4i-_Wc4JVN8ga2x2vxc8xews_ [6] https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html?filter%5b1%5d=English&filter%5b2%5d=United%20States [7] https://www.sma-america.com/products/hybrid-inverters/sunny-boy-smart-energy [8] http://www.ienergyvt.com/ [9] https://www.facebook.com/integrityenergyllp?ref=hl [10] https://pv-magazine-usa.us13.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2790e780a1533f4bc05c8679a&id=f0c9594dad&e=08687aaaf2 [11] https://seekingalpha.com/news/4468352-enphase-energy-begins-shipments-of-iq-battery-5p-with-higher-domestic-content#source=first_level_url%3Aportfolio%7Ccontent_type%3Aall%7Csection%3Aportfolio_content_unit%7Csection_asset%3Alatest%7Cline%3A1 [12] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [13] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 16 14:30:49 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 14:30:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart Message-ID: Has anyone done a conversion with a solar panel to replace the entire roof of a golf cart? I would love to get some tips on that. I'm surprised a quick search did not bring up a lot of kits. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Sat Aug 16 14:44:54 2025 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 18:44:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <960C5DF0-D957-4555-8F7A-C4CA7B36ECE1@foxfire-energy.com> We’ve done a couple.. on one presently sorta... 48V FLA John Deere Gator .. 880w PV on a Marine Midnight Kid CC.. Either Midnight Rosie (M) or Sealed OB FX haven’t decided yet.. Homemade Frame n Rack.. Learnt to avoid AL racking .. Don’t really need Shore Power (Pass Through), but EQ is important. Hope this helps. db Sent from my iPhone On Aug 16, 2025, at 2:32 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:  Has anyone done a conversion with a solar panel to replace the entire roof of a golf cart? I would love to get some tips on that. I'm surprised a quick search did not bring up a lot of kits. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Aug 16 15:04:48 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 12:04:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart In-Reply-To: <960C5DF0-D957-4555-8F7A-C4CA7B36ECE1@foxfire-energy.com> References: <960C5DF0-D957-4555-8F7A-C4CA7B36ECE1@foxfire-energy.com> Message-ID: Forgive, wrenches, Yes i did, started out with a 36 vdc turned it into a 48 used 4 sharp 85 and we did parades and it looked like a circle track outlaw car, lots of fun Funtimes On Sat, Aug 16, 2025, 11:45 AM Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We’ve done a couple.. on one presently sorta... 48V FLA John Deere Gator > .. 880w PV on a Marine Midnight Kid CC.. Either Midnight Rosie (M) or > Sealed OB FX haven’t decided yet.. Homemade Frame n Rack.. Learnt to avoid > AL racking .. Don’t really need Shore Power (Pass Through), but EQ is > important. > Hope this helps. > db > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 16, 2025, at 2:32 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Has anyone done a conversion with a solar panel to replace the entire roof > of a golf cart? > > I would love to get some tips on that. I'm surprised a quick search did > not bring up a lot of kits. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 16 15:18:28 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 15:18:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart In-Reply-To: <960C5DF0-D957-4555-8F7A-C4CA7B36ECE1@foxfire-energy.com> References: <960C5DF0-D957-4555-8F7A-C4CA7B36ECE1@foxfire-energy.com> Message-ID: The Marine Kid is a fantastic idea. Thanks! Can you share why no aluminum racking? Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 16, 2025, 2:46 PM Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We’ve done a couple.. on one presently sorta... 48V FLA John Deere Gator > .. 880w PV on a Marine Midnight Kid CC.. Either Midnight Rosie (M) or > Sealed OB FX haven’t decided yet.. Homemade Frame n Rack.. Learnt to avoid > AL racking .. Don’t really need Shore Power (Pass Through), but EQ is > important. > Hope this helps. > db > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 16, 2025, at 2:32 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Has anyone done a conversion with a solar panel to replace the entire roof > of a golf cart? > > I would love to get some tips on that. I'm surprised a quick search did > not bring up a lot of kits. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 16 15:29:29 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 15:29:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart In-Reply-To: References: <960C5DF0-D957-4555-8F7A-C4CA7B36ECE1@foxfire-energy.com> Message-ID: I'm hoping to use a single panel to replace the roof, but I need to charge a 51.2V LFP, and I don't know if there are any panels on the market that have a high enough Vmp. The REC Alpha Pure RX 460W is close to the typical float voltage of 51.2V LFP batteries, but that's all I really can think of. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 16, 2025, 3:07 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Forgive, wrenches, > Yes i did, started out with a 36 vdc turned it into a 48 used 4 sharp 85 > and we did parades and it looked like a circle track outlaw car, lots of fun > Funtimes > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2025, 11:45 AM Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We’ve done a couple.. on one presently sorta... 48V FLA John Deere Gator >> .. 880w PV on a Marine Midnight Kid CC.. Either Midnight Rosie (M) or >> Sealed OB FX haven’t decided yet.. Homemade Frame n Rack.. Learnt to avoid >> AL racking .. Don’t really need Shore Power (Pass Through), but EQ is >> important. >> Hope this helps. >> db >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Aug 16, 2025, at 2:32 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Has anyone done a conversion with a solar panel to replace the entire >> roof of a golf cart? >> >> I would love to get some tips on that. I'm surprised a quick search did >> not bring up a lot of kits. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Sat Aug 16 17:30:49 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 14:30:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart In-Reply-To: References: <960C5DF0-D957-4555-8F7A-C4CA7B36ECE1@foxfire-energy.com> Message-ID: Sounds like a fun project Jason. Not sure how adequate they are these days with the continuing moving targets the industry has been offering us but these Genasun controllers might be a key problem solver for your array to battery ratio. Obviously we all have significant access to our preferred battery solutions but my client had good luck sourcing the right form factor for his Ranger conversion through https://www.sunfunkits.com/. At the time I recall not being able to offer him much better options with similar attributes for the price he was able to get. Have fun, Nick On Sat, Aug 16, 2025 at 12:30 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm hoping to use a single panel to replace the roof, but I need to charge > a 51.2V LFP, and I don't know if there are any panels on the market that > have a high enough Vmp. The REC Alpha Pure RX 460W is close to the typical > float voltage of 51.2V LFP batteries, but that's all I really can think of. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2025, 3:07 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Forgive, wrenches, >> Yes i did, started out with a 36 vdc turned it into a 48 used 4 sharp 85 >> and we did parades and it looked like a circle track outlaw car, lots of fun >> Funtimes >> >> On Sat, Aug 16, 2025, 11:45 AM Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> We’ve done a couple.. on one presently sorta... 48V FLA John Deere Gator >>> .. 880w PV on a Marine Midnight Kid CC.. Either Midnight Rosie (M) or >>> Sealed OB FX haven’t decided yet.. Homemade Frame n Rack.. Learnt to avoid >>> AL racking .. Don’t really need Shore Power (Pass Through), but EQ is >>> important. >>> Hope this helps. >>> db >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Aug 16, 2025, at 2:32 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Has anyone done a conversion with a solar panel to replace the entire >>> roof of a golf cart? >>> >>> I would love to get some tips on that. I'm surprised a quick search did >>> not bring up a lot of kits. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat Aug 16 19:08:28 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 18:08:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I recommend this channel / video: https://youtu.be/FOd3xfRT8VU Regenerative Golf Cart youtu.be Scott direct mounted the 60-cell module and used the Genesun controller that is a boosting controller. I also did a similar project and I mounted the leftover 60-cell module to the roof with IronRidge XR10 rail to give a bit more compliance over bumpy trails. I also used the Genesun controller. https://youtu.be/7NevGdtFXO8 EZGO Freedom Golf Car gets a Refresh with Maverick MacGyver and special guests Vatrer & Genasun! youtu.be https://a.co/d/5sF4AlL Genasun Solar Charge Controller a.co https://www.vatrerpower.com/collections/golf-cart-batteries Lithium Golf Cart Batteries vatrerpower.com I love the Vatrer 36V battery, You can get a 48V (51.2V) version as well… There are other brands of great batteries that drop in… especially if you have a SawzAll. Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Aug 16, 2025, at 1:30 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Has anyone done a conversion with a solar panel to replace the entire roof of a golf cart? > > I would love to get some tips on that. I'm surprised a quick search did not bring up a lot of kits. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: hqdefault.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45618 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 88822 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 31pDBL0th8L.jpg_BO30,255,255,255_UF900,850_SR1910,1000,0,C_QL100_.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 11366 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1_3d3ddadd-bc70-46ed-8d81-f1df028782f9.png Type: image/png Size: 5858 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Aug 16 19:45:33 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 17:45:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Sat Aug 16 20:43:13 2025 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2025 00:43:13 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We clutched on LFP batteries because we see temps down to -30-40F.. And avoided large panels thinking smaller panels were more robust and could stack for higher a VOC. db ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2025 7:45 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart I was going to agree and say going to lithium battery is actually a big boost in efficiency due to the high weight reduction. On Aug 16, 2025, at 5:09 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: I recommend this channel / video: Regenerative Golf Cart youtu.be Scott direct mounted the 60-cell module and used the Genesun controller that is a boosting controller. I also did a similar project and I mounted the leftover 60-cell module to the roof with IronRidge XR10 rail to give a bit more compliance over bumpy trails. I also used the Genesun controller. EZGO Freedom Golf Car gets a Refresh with Maverick MacGyver and special guests Vatrer & Genasun! youtu.be <31pDBL0th8L.jpg_BO30,255,255,255_UF900,850_SR1910,1000,0,C_QL100_.jpeg> Genasun Solar Charge Controller a.co <1_3d3ddadd-bc70-46ed-8d81-f1df028782f9.png> Lithium Golf Cart Batteries vatrerpower.com I love the Vatrer 36V battery, You can get a 48V (51.2V) version as well… There are other brands of great batteries that drop in… especially if you have a SawzAll. Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On Aug 16, 2025, at 1:30 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: Has anyone done a conversion with a solar panel to replace the entire roof of a golf cart? I would love to get some tips on that. I'm surprised a quick search did not bring up a lot of kits. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Aug 16 20:55:30 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 18:55:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54C916CF-D095-44C3-B632-1D61938EF725@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Aug 16 23:22:37 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 21:22:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart In-Reply-To: <54C916CF-D095-44C3-B632-1D61938EF725@gmail.com> References: <54C916CF-D095-44C3-B632-1D61938EF725@gmail.com> Message-ID: <29369b02-b4f1-4529-a831-875dcb73ed00@solarray.com> Here's some EVs we put solar on.  Check out the Solrunner, the early one was a golf cart, then the other was a chinese UTV we converted.  I haven't done anything in a long time, but I recently got a Surron electric motor cycle, its a bunch of fun.  Li+ batteries make any EV much more usable. more range, lighter weight.  Lead acid is just rough, performance starts dragging as the voltage drops in the first few miles. https://www.solarray.com/EVs/ Ray Walters Remote Solar On 8/16/2025 6:55 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > When the sodium batteries hit our market, they go down to -40. > > > >> On Aug 16, 2025, at 6:43 PM, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> We clutched on LFP batteries because we see temps down to -30-40F.. >> And avoided large panels thinking smaller panels were more robust and >> could stack for higher a VOC. >> db >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Jay via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Saturday, August 16, 2025 7:45 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Jay >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart >> I was going to agree and say going to lithium battery is actually a >> big boost in efficiency due to the high weight reduction. >> >> >>> On Aug 16, 2025, at 5:09 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> I recommend this channel / video: >>> >>> >>> Regenerative Golf Cart >>> youtu.be >>> >>> >>> >>> Scott direct mounted the 60-cell module and used the Genesun >>> controller that is a boosting controller. >>> >>> I also did a similar project and I mounted the leftover 60-cell >>> module to the roof with IronRidge XR10 rail to give a bit more >>> compliance over bumpy trails. I also used the Genesun controller. >>> >>> >>> >>> EZGO Freedom Golf Car gets a Refresh with Maverick MacGyver and >>> special guests Vatrer & Genasun! >>> youtu.be >>> >>> >>> >>> <31pDBL0th8L.jpg_BO30,255,255,255_UF900,850_SR1910,1000,0,C_QL100_.jpeg> >>> Genasun Solar Charge Controller >>> a.co >>> >>> >>> <1_3d3ddadd-bc70-46ed-8d81-f1df028782f9.png> >>> Lithium Golf Cart Batteries >>> >>> vatrerpower.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I love the Vatrer 36V battery, You can get a 48V (51.2V) version as >>> well… >>> >>> There are other brands of great batteries that drop in… especially >>> if you have a SawzAll. >>> >>> >>> >>> Maverick Brown >>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >>> *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* >>> * • Solar Commander Remote Power* >>> * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >>> *maverick at mavericksolar.com >>> 512-460-9825 >>> >>>> On Aug 16, 2025, at 1:30 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Has anyone done a conversion with a solar panel to replace the >>>> entire roof of a golf cart? >>>> >>>> I would love to get some tips on that. I'm surprised a quick search >>>> did not bring up a lot of kits. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> * >>>> >>>> * >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>> try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Aug 16 23:54:56 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 23:54:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, I have done several . My first one had 3 85 watt panels on Unirac rails attached to the same support as the original plastic roof. Worked great but the rain leaked through the panel spaces. Then a few years ago I replaced the 3 panels with one Solarworld 250. I had to beef up the front mounting points on the front hood but otherwise have run it continuously for over 13 years with just one battery replacement and never charged from the grid since panels were installed. Used Genesun 36v charge controller The next one was a 8 passenger stretched Cart. The quick and dirty conversion for this one was two wood strips screwed to the fiberglass roof the length of the roof spaced to fit just inside the two 325 watt panels. Used a Victron charge controller for this 48v cart, 2 panels in series. Both carts have been used at Solarfest events and the first one also on Our sheep farm year round. I Leave it out all winter and shovel up to two feet of snow off it at times. Go to Solarfest.org. Click on Home, then scroll to the bottom and the scrolling photos have the 8 passenger cart. That rig ran non-stop for the 3 days and nights hauling people & band equipment and And never ran out of charge. Let me know if you want more photos. John Blittersdorf On Sat, Aug 16, 2025 at 2:32 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Has anyone done a conversion with a solar panel to replace the entire roof > of a golf cart? > > I would love to get some tips on that. I'm surprised a quick search did > not bring up a lot of kits. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Aug 17 09:18:58 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2025 09:18:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm hoping to have a single panel for simplicity and charge a 48V LFP battery. The voltage is an issue, however, with the Vmp being too low in most cases. I know a guy that use this cheap DC-DC booster and he says it works fine: https://a.co/d/2nHKVat I would like to use a higher quality booster if something like that exists from Midnite/Victron or another well known manufacturer. Bluetooth connectivity would be a plus. He used an Aptos 440W biracial. I could use the currently available Aptos 460W, but I was thinking REC Alpha Pure RX for the higher voltage and beefed up frame with cross members. Then I need to see if I can affix some grab handles to the module frame without overstressing it. I'm thinking of maybe using some XR10 rails to beef up the long sides of the frame. I'm thinking some MLPE T-bolts could go through the existing mounting points. Then I could affix the grab handles to the side of the rails. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 16, 2025, 11:56 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, I have done several . My first one had 3 85 watt panels on Unirac > rails attached to the same support as the original plastic roof. Worked > great but the rain leaked through the panel spaces. Then a few years ago I > replaced the 3 panels with one Solarworld 250. I had to beef up the front > mounting points on the front hood but otherwise have run it continuously > for over 13 years with just one battery replacement and never charged from > the grid since panels were installed. > Used Genesun 36v charge controller > > The next one was a 8 passenger stretched > Cart. The quick and dirty conversion for this one was two wood strips > screwed to the fiberglass roof the length of the roof spaced to fit just > inside the two 325 watt panels. Used a Victron charge controller for this > 48v cart, 2 panels in series. Both carts have been used at Solarfest > events and the first one also on > Our sheep farm year round. I Leave it out all winter and shovel up to two > feet of snow off it at times. > > Go to Solarfest.org. Click on > Home, then scroll to the bottom and the scrolling photos have the 8 > passenger cart. That rig ran non-stop for the 3 days and nights hauling > people & band equipment and > And never ran out of charge. > > Let me know if you want more photos. > > John Blittersdorf > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2025 at 2:32 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Has anyone done a conversion with a solar panel to replace the entire >> roof of a golf cart? >> >> I would love to get some tips on that. I'm surprised a quick search did >> not bring up a lot of kits. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Aug 17 11:03:29 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2025 08:03:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pretty small footprint on a cart. Done quite a few shipping containers but maybe this article might show what they are doing in Europe. DIY home power may spread with the tax credits going away. It already has! Solar panels that fit on your balcony or deck are gaining traction in the US https://apnews.com/article/balcony-plug-solar-climate-energy-renewable-trump-c162abf520da0fa155dc971270b8684a?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=share [1] Small-scale solar panels about the size of a door are poised to be plugged into more U.S. homes and apartments as homeowners and renters who want to harness the sun's energy look for cheaper alternatives to rooftop installations. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-08-16 11:30 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Has anyone done a conversion with a solar panel to replace the entire > roof of a golf cart? > > I would love to get some tips on that. I'm surprised a quick search did > not bring up a lot of kits. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://apnews.com/article/balcony-plug-solar-climate-energy-renewable-trump-c162abf520da0fa155dc971270b8684a?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=share [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Aug 17 11:30:34 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2025 15:30:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96e61aba-9b9d-fc9d-8343-6351ca890187@floridasolardesigngroup.com> A 460W panel will be fine for this client with a 5120 Wh battery. We can get about 2,000 Wh of charging on an average day here, and they would never burn anywhere close to half a tank of electrons in a day. The use case is for an island retreat where they spend a week there, and then it will sit unused for months at a time. They can probably get through the whole week without charging at all in case the weather is bad. I'm going to recommend a Chargeverter with a portable generator for emergency backup charging. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sun, Aug 17, 2025 at 11:05 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Pretty small footprint on a cart. Done quite a few shipping containers but maybe this article might show what they are doing in Europe. > DIY home power may spread with the tax credits going away. > > It already has! > > Solar panels that fit on your balcony or deck are gaining traction in the US > > https://apnews.com/article/balcony-plug-solar-climate-energy-renewable-trump-c162abf520da0fa155dc971270b8684a?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=sharehttps://apnews.com/article/balcony-plug-solar-climate-energy-renewable-trump-c162abf520da0fa155dc971270b8684a?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=share > > Small-scale solar panels about the size of a door are poised to be plugged into more U.S. homes and apartments as homeowners and renters who want to harness the sun’s energy look for cheaper alternatives to rooftop installations.  > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/https://offgridsolar1.com/https://offgridsolar1.com/ http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.netoffgridsolar@sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > > > On 2025-08-16 11:30 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > Has anyone done a conversion with a solar panel to replace the entire roof > > of a golf cart?  > >   > > I would love to get some tips on that. I'm surprised a quick search did not > > bring up a lot of kits.  > >   > > Jason Szumlanski  > > Florida Solar Design Group  > >   > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Aug 17 11:40:59 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2025 09:40:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Cart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, I think a few people have mentioned it here, but the Genasun controller will charge a higher voltage battery than the solar output. It's a very basic interface but they work fine. You could add a Victron shunt to give more of a view into what's happening. https://sunforgellc.com/product/gvb-8-wp/ On Sun, Aug 17, 2025 at 7:20 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm hoping to have a single panel for simplicity and charge a 48V LFP > battery. The voltage is an issue, however, with the Vmp being too low in > most cases. I know a guy that use this cheap DC-DC booster and he says it > works fine: > > https://a.co/d/2nHKVat > > I would like to use a higher quality booster if something like that exists > from Midnite/Victron or another well known manufacturer. Bluetooth > connectivity would be a plus. > > He used an Aptos 440W biracial. I could use the currently available Aptos > 460W, but I was thinking REC Alpha Pure RX for the higher voltage and > beefed up frame with cross members. > > Then I need to see if I can affix some grab handles to the module frame > without overstressing it. I'm thinking of maybe using some XR10 rails to > beef up the long sides of the frame. I'm thinking some MLPE T-bolts could > go through the existing mounting points. Then I could affix the grab > handles to the side of the rails. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2025, 11:56 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, I have done several . My first one had 3 85 watt panels on >> Unirac rails attached to the same support as the original plastic roof. >> Worked great but the rain leaked through the panel spaces. Then a few years >> ago I replaced the 3 panels with one Solarworld 250. I had to beef up the >> front mounting points on the front hood but otherwise have run it >> continuously for over 13 years with just one battery replacement and never >> charged from the grid since panels were installed. >> Used Genesun 36v charge controller >> >> The next one was a 8 passenger stretched >> Cart. The quick and dirty conversion for this one was two wood strips >> screwed to the fiberglass roof the length of the roof spaced to fit just >> inside the two 325 watt panels. Used a Victron charge controller for this >> 48v cart, 2 panels in series. Both carts have been used at Solarfest >> events and the first one also on >> Our sheep farm year round. I Leave it out all winter and shovel up to >> two feet of snow off it at times. >> >> Go to Solarfest.org. Click on >> Home, then scroll to the bottom and the scrolling photos have the 8 >> passenger cart. That rig ran non-stop for the 3 days and nights hauling >> people & band equipment and >> And never ran out of charge. >> >> Let me know if you want more photos. >> >> John Blittersdorf >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 16, 2025 at 2:32 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Has anyone done a conversion with a solar panel to replace the entire >>> roof of a golf cart? >>> >>> I would love to get some tips on that. I'm surprised a quick search did >>> not bring up a lot of kits. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Sun Aug 17 19:56:32 2025 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2025 19:56:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Ca Message-ID: <2D4FB6C6-C54F-4ED4-8E75-D63240875136@sunwindpowerinc.com> I did one using 2 Stion thin film panels Voc was right at 80V! Maybe you could find some thin film mod’s or peel and stick’s with high Voc. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Aug 18 06:26:05 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 06:26:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Golf Ca In-Reply-To: <2D4FB6C6-C54F-4ED4-8E75-D63240875136@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <2D4FB6C6-C54F-4ED4-8E75-D63240875136@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: I'm looking for high power density. I need a minimum of 400W on a standard 4-person cart. I don't think I'll get there with thin film. But I did think of that for supplemental power when parked. Maybe a roll out panel on the ground with some quick connects. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sun, Aug 17, 2025, 7:57 PM Jeremy Coxon via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I did one using 2 Stion thin film panels Voc was right at 80V! Maybe you > could find some thin film mod’s or peel and stick’s with high Voc. > > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP > Certified MWBE > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Aug 18 10:41:23 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 10:41:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Wallmount Parallel Busbars Message-ID: I'm looking for suggestions for a fused busbar for five Wallmount batteries with two FlexBoss18 inverters. I was thinking Victron Lynx Distributor, but I don't think I can fit that into one of the EG4 Conduit Boxes. I'm looking for the most elegant solution possible without adding an extra enclosure, if possible. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Aug 18 10:53:12 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 08:53:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Wallmount Parallel Busbars In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So you’re looking for 9 connections pos/neg 1 for each battery and 2 for each inverter? > On Aug 18, 2025, at 8:41 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I'm looking for suggestions for a fused busbar for five Wallmount batteries with two FlexBoss18 inverters. I was thinking Victron Lynx Distributor, but I don't think I can fit that into one of the EG4 Conduit Boxes. I'm looking for the most elegant solution possible without adding an extra enclosure, if possible. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Aug 18 10:56:35 2025 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 07:56:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Wallmount Parallel Busbars In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22E5FEE5-9864-47C2-A248-16F206B0A6DF@villagepowerdesign.com> Hi Jason The EG4 Wallmount has internal bus bars rated to 600 Amps. If you follow the UL approved configurations shown on the battery wiring diagrams on their website you can parallel up to 6 batteries with just plug and play cables by using the parallel kit purchased separately (1 per extra battery). No need for external bus bars or fusing. Hope that helps! Best Jeff Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 18, 2025, at 7:42 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I'm looking for suggestions for a fused busbar for five Wallmount batteries with two FlexBoss18 inverters. I was thinking Victron Lynx Distributor, but I don't think I can fit that into one of the EG4 Conduit Boxes. I'm looking for the most elegant solution possible without adding an extra enclosure, if possible. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Aug 18 11:05:41 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 11:05:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Wallmount Parallel Busbars In-Reply-To: <22E5FEE5-9864-47C2-A248-16F206B0A6DF@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <22E5FEE5-9864-47C2-A248-16F206B0A6DF@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: I'm very glad I asked! The battery manuals show only 4 batteries per two inverters. Now I see they have a separate paralleling guide that shows up to 6 batteries paralleled for two or three inverters. Thanks, Jeff! Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Aug 18, 2025 at 10:58 AM Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jason > > The EG4 Wallmount has internal bus bars rated to 600 Amps. If you follow > the UL approved configurations shown on the battery wiring diagrams on > their website you can parallel up to 6 batteries with just plug and play > cables by using the parallel kit purchased separately (1 per extra > battery). No need for external bus bars or fusing. > > Hope that helps! > > Best > > Jeff > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 18, 2025, at 7:42 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I'm looking for suggestions for a fused busbar for five Wallmount > batteries with two FlexBoss18 inverters. I was thinking Victron Lynx > Distributor, but I don't think I can fit that into one of the EG4 Conduit > Boxes. I'm looking for the most elegant solution possible without adding an > extra enclosure, if possible. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Mon Aug 18 14:13:42 2025 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 13:13:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Resi tax credit Message-ID: Hi All, Just received the following in an email from my local state solar lobbying group. ---snip--- *Solar projects 1.5 MW (AC) or less remain eligible to use the 5% Safe Harbor rule.* That means: If at least 5% of project costs are incurred (equipment deposits, racking, inverters, modules) before December 31, 2025, the project qualifies as “begun construction.” Alternatively, starting physical work—like installing racks on a rooftop—also establishes eligibility. Once placed in service, these projects may be eligible the full 30% Residential Clean Energy Credit. *Contact a tax attorney for further details.* ---snip--- Has anyone heard a similar interpretation recently? A little scary that they say "may be eligible". Thanks, Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Mon Aug 18 14:33:16 2025 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 18:33:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Resi tax credit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would seek guidance from a tax attorney as noted. I do not believe that is correct information for residential non-TPO systems if the implication is they can be placed in service AFTER Dec 31, 2025 if 5% spent before that date - the recent Treasury guidance is NOT applicable to 25D tax credits, only 45Y and 48E. Sections 45Y and 48E Beginning of Construction Notice 25D eligibility goes away completely on Dec 31 2025, and system must be operational (either placed in service or possibly tested operational but waiting for PTO) by then to claim credit. Best regards - Mike Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America +1 916 918 9412 SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings [cid:image001.png at 01DC103A.78A3A390] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, August 18, 2025 12:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Kristopher Schmid Subject: [RE-wrenches] Resi tax credit Hi All, Just received the following in an email from my local state solar lobbying group. ---snip--- Solar projects 1.5 MW (AC) or less remain eligible to use the 5% Safe Harbor rule. That means: If at least 5% of project costs are incurred (equipment deposits, racking, inverters, modules) before December 31, 2025, the project qualifies as "begun construction." Alternatively, starting physical work-like installing racks on a rooftop-also establishes eligibility. Once placed in service, these projects may be eligible the full 30% Residential Clean Energy Credit. Contact a tax attorney for further details. ---snip--- Has anyone heard a similar interpretation recently? A little scary that they say "may be eligible". Thanks, Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 148177 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Aug 18 14:39:08 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 14:39:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Resi tax credit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree, but I have a client who is a tax attorney and even specializes in energy-related tax credits, and he is insisting that he wants to pay me in December for a January battery installation. He is going to take the tax credit. Ask ten attorneys and expect a dozen answers! Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Aug 18, 2025 at 2:35 PM Harry Mahon via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I would seek guidance from a tax attorney as noted. > > > > I do not believe that is correct information for residential non-TPO > systems if the implication is they can be placed in service AFTER Dec 31, > 2025 if 5% spent before that date – the recent Treasury guidance is NOT > applicable to 25D tax credits, only 45Y and 48E. > > > > Sections 45Y and 48E Beginning of Construction Notice > > > > > 25D eligibility goes away completely on Dec 31 2025, and system must be > operational (either placed in service or *possibly* tested operational > but waiting for PTO) by then to claim credit. > > > > Best regards – > > Mike > > > > > *Michael Mahon* (he/him) > Solar Academy Manager | SMA America > > +1 916 918 9412 > SMA America | Solar Academy > | TechTip Channel > > | Upcoming Academy Trainings > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or > any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2025 12:14 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Kristopher Schmid > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Resi tax credit > > > > Hi All, > > > > Just received the following in an email from my local state solar lobbying > group. > > > > ---snip--- > > *Solar projects 1.5 MW (AC) or less remain eligible to use the 5% Safe > Harbor rule.* > > That means: > > If at least 5% of project costs are incurred (equipment deposits, racking, > inverters, modules) before December 31, 2025, the project qualifies as > “begun construction.” > > Alternatively, starting physical work—like installing racks on a > rooftop—also establishes eligibility. > > Once placed in service, these projects may be eligible the full 30% > Residential Clean Energy Credit. *Contact a tax attorney for further > details.* > > ---snip--- > > > > Has anyone heard a similar interpretation recently? A little scary that > they say "may be eligible". > > > > Thanks, > > Kris > > > > > > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 148177 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 20 16:44:32 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2025 14:44:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries Message-ID: <68352C93-62FD-4D99-B921-DECE50FE3A3A@gmail.com> HI All I just got back from my local recycler. He won’t take the GNB AGM batteries. He said his ultimate buyer in california won’t buy them. Has any one else seen this? thanks jay From garyhsolari at gmail.com Wed Aug 20 17:34:15 2025 From: garyhsolari at gmail.com (Gary Handelin) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2025 14:34:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries In-Reply-To: <68352C93-62FD-4D99-B921-DECE50FE3A3A@gmail.com> References: <68352C93-62FD-4D99-B921-DECE50FE3A3A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I couldn't find anyone in the Reno area either so I went searching. Try Batteryrecyclersofamerica.com 866.827.1830 I spoke to them last week and they will schedule a truck to pick them up after I have them on a pallet ready for shipment. Still waiting to find out what I need to do but I think it's just wrapping them in plastic, making sure not to include too much weight and possibly adding some decals. If they don't come thru I guess plan B might be to flush them, get the lead out, and make more bullets for my 45 long colt (ought to be several thousand rounds). Gary On Wed, Aug 20, 2025 at 1:45 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All > > I just got back from my local recycler. He won’t take the GNB AGM > batteries. > He said his ultimate buyer in california won’t buy them. > > Has any one else seen this? > > thanks > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 20 18:04:19 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2025 16:04:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6909D38E-D601-4CD1-ADD6-44A46E04921F@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Wed Aug 20 18:36:59 2025 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2025 18:36:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries In-Reply-To: References: <68352C93-62FD-4D99-B921-DECE50FE3A3A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <770a9a68-bcb5-4a17-a5fb-aa69c29762dd@four-winds-energy.com> Interstate Battery takes mine. They should have a store somewhere near you. Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” He who asks a question is a fool for a minute. He who does not ask is a fool for life Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 8/20/2025 5:34 PM, Gary Handelin via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jay, > I couldn't find anyone in the Reno area either so I went searching. > Try Batteryrecyclersofamerica.com 866.827.1830  I spoke to them last > week and they will schedule a truck to pick them up after I have them > on a pallet ready for shipment.  Still waiting to find out what I need > to do but I think it's just wrapping them in plastic, making sure not > to include too much weight and possibly adding some decals. If they > don't come thru I guess plan B might be to flush them, get the lead > out, and make more bullets for my 45 long colt (ought to be several > thousand rounds). > Gary > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2025 at 1:45 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > HI All > > I just got back from my local recycler.  He won’t take the GNB AGM > batteries. > He said his ultimate buyer in california won’t buy them. > > Has any one else seen this? > > thanks > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 20 19:36:27 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2025 17:36:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries In-Reply-To: <770a9a68-bcb5-4a17-a5fb-aa69c29762dd@four-winds-energy.com> References: <770a9a68-bcb5-4a17-a5fb-aa69c29762dd@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Aug 20 19:47:47 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2025 23:47:47 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries In-Reply-To: References: <770a9a68-bcb5-4a17-a5fb-aa69c29762dd@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: I had a similar experience last year – the actual recycler really didn’t want them – same reasons as you had, they did take them but would not pay as they do conventional AGM or FLA batteries. Was a bummer since I thought we would have a $ reward for packing 5,000 lbs of them off a small island. Intermediaries may take them because they don’t know. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: August-20-25 4:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries It’s so confusing The info I got was from an OEM that does actual recycling/ melting. I don’t know if other oems use similar ingredients Jay On Aug 20, 2025, at 4:37 PM, Roy Butler via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Interstate Battery takes mine. They should have a store somewhere near you. Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” He who asks a question is a fool for a minute. He who does not ask is a fool for life Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 8/20/2025 5:34 PM, Gary Handelin via RE-wrenches wrote: Jay, I couldn't find anyone in the Reno area either so I went searching. Try Batteryrecyclersofamerica.com 866.827.1830 I spoke to them last week and they will schedule a truck to pick them up after I have them on a pallet ready for shipment. Still waiting to find out what I need to do but I think it's just wrapping them in plastic, making sure not to include too much weight and possibly adding some decals. If they don't come thru I guess plan B might be to flush them, get the lead out, and make more bullets for my 45 long colt (ought to be several thousand rounds). Gary On Wed, Aug 20, 2025 at 1:45 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: HI All I just got back from my local recycler. He won’t take the GNB AGM batteries. He said his ultimate buyer in california won’t buy them. Has any one else seen this? thanks jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Aug 20 22:01:54 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2025 22:01:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries In-Reply-To: <770a9a68-bcb5-4a17-a5fb-aa69c29762dd@four-winds-energy.com> References: <68352C93-62FD-4D99-B921-DECE50FE3A3A@gmail.com> <770a9a68-bcb5-4a17-a5fb-aa69c29762dd@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: I'm about to take 24 L16 FLA batteries off an island. Any idea how much Interstate pays? I'm giving the owner the salvage money, charging for our labor and transport costs. He would like to know what to expect. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Aug 20, 2025, 6:37 PM Roy Butler via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Interstate Battery takes mine. They should have a store somewhere near you. > > Roy Butler > Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC8902 Route 46 , Arkport, NY 14807 > 607-324-9747 > > Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. > > “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” > > He who asks a question is a fool for a minute. He who does not ask is a fool for life > > Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, > a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. > > > > On 8/20/2025 5:34 PM, Gary Handelin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jay, > I couldn't find anyone in the Reno area either so I went searching. Try > Batteryrecyclersofamerica.com 866.827.1830 I spoke to them last week and > they will schedule a truck to pick them up after I have them on a pallet > ready for shipment. Still waiting to find out what I need to do but I > think it's just wrapping them in plastic, making sure not to include too > much weight and possibly adding some decals. If they don't come thru I > guess plan B might be to flush them, get the lead out, and make more > bullets for my 45 long colt (ought to be several thousand rounds). > Gary > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2025 at 1:45 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> HI All >> >> I just got back from my local recycler. He won’t take the GNB AGM >> batteries. >> He said his ultimate buyer in california won’t buy them. >> >> Has any one else seen this? >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 20 22:10:01 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2025 20:10:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5E21D5A1-31C1-4B7C-BB1D-BEDE98BCBC01@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 20 22:11:09 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2025 20:11:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Aug 20 22:27:16 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2025 19:27:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries In-Reply-To: References: <68352C93-62FD-4D99-B921-DECE50FE3A3A@gmail.com> <770a9a68-bcb5-4a17-a5fb-aa69c29762dd@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: I have been getting $0.16/lb at my local recycler. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Wed, Aug 20, 2025 at 7:04 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm about to take 24 L16 FLA batteries off an island. Any idea how much > Interstate pays? I'm giving the owner the salvage money, charging for our > labor and transport costs. He would like to know what to expect. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2025, 6:37 PM Roy Butler via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Interstate Battery takes mine. They should have a store somewhere near >> you. >> >> Roy Butler >> Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC8902 Route 46 , Arkport, NY 14807 >> 607-324-9747 >> >> Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. >> >> “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” >> >> He who asks a question is a fool for a minute. He who does not ask is a fool for life >> >> Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, >> a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. >> >> >> >> On 8/20/2025 5:34 PM, Gary Handelin via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Jay, >> I couldn't find anyone in the Reno area either so I went searching. Try >> Batteryrecyclersofamerica.com 866.827.1830 I spoke to them last week and >> they will schedule a truck to pick them up after I have them on a pallet >> ready for shipment. Still waiting to find out what I need to do but I >> think it's just wrapping them in plastic, making sure not to include too >> much weight and possibly adding some decals. If they don't come thru I >> guess plan B might be to flush them, get the lead out, and make more >> bullets for my 45 long colt (ought to be several thousand rounds). >> Gary >> >> On Wed, Aug 20, 2025 at 1:45 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> HI All >>> >>> I just got back from my local recycler. He won’t take the GNB AGM >>> batteries. >>> He said his ultimate buyer in california won’t buy them. >>> >>> Has any one else seen this? >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> jay >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rekindaguy at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 00:06:51 2025 From: rekindaguy at yahoo.com (Bob-O) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2025 21:06:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5C5BF2F4-4598-4B8A-A820-DE5116DA2004@yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Thu Aug 21 10:34:20 2025 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 14:34:20 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries In-Reply-To: <5C5BF2F4-4598-4B8A-A820-DE5116DA2004@yahoo.com> References: <5C5BF2F4-4598-4B8A-A820-DE5116DA2004@yahoo.com> Message-ID: $0.16 per lb in northern CA Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables, Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1-D Ferndale, CA 95536 707-923-3000 office ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Bob-O via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2025 9:06:51 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Bob-O Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries Last I checked in OR, Interstate was paying 0.10/lb Bob-O On Aug 20, 2025, at 7:04 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:  I'm about to take 24 L16 FLA batteries off an island. Any idea how much Interstate pays? I'm giving the owner the salvage money, charging for our labor and transport costs. He would like to know what to expect. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Aug 20, 2025, 6:37 PM Roy Butler via RE-wrenches > wrote: Interstate Battery takes mine. They should have a store somewhere near you. Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” He who asks a question is a fool for a minute. He who does not ask is a fool for life Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 8/20/2025 5:34 PM, Gary Handelin via RE-wrenches wrote: Jay, I couldn't find anyone in the Reno area either so I went searching. Try Batteryrecyclersofamerica.com 866.827.1830 I spoke to them last week and they will schedule a truck to pick them up after I have them on a pallet ready for shipment. Still waiting to find out what I need to do but I think it's just wrapping them in plastic, making sure not to include too much weight and possibly adding some decals. If they don't come thru I guess plan B might be to flush them, get the lead out, and make more bullets for my 45 long colt (ought to be several thousand rounds). Gary On Wed, Aug 20, 2025 at 1:45 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: HI All I just got back from my local recycler. He won’t take the GNB AGM batteries. He said his ultimate buyer in california won’t buy them. Has any one else seen this? thanks jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Aug 21 17:59:05 2025 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 17:59:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries In-Reply-To: References: <5C5BF2F4-4598-4B8A-A820-DE5116DA2004@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey Jay, I was able to get 0.23/lb here in NY for the GNB Absolyte 2v cells. I've got one more set to recycle next week. Christopher On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 10:35 AM Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > $0.16 per lb in northern CA > > Bryan Norkunas > PV-Cables, Inc. > 989 Milton Ave Ste 1-D > Ferndale, CA 95536 > 707-923-3000 office > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Bob-O via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 20, 2025 9:06:51 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Bob-O > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries > > Last I checked in OR, Interstate was paying 0.10/lb > Bob-O > > On Aug 20, 2025, at 7:04 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I'm about to take 24 L16 FLA batteries off an island. Any idea how much > Interstate pays? I'm giving the owner the salvage money, charging for our > labor and transport costs. He would like to know what to expect. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2025, 6:37 PM Roy Butler via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Interstate Battery takes mine. They should have a store somewhere near you. > > Roy Butler > Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC8902 Route 46 , Arkport, NY 14807 > 607-324-9747 > > Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. > > “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” > > He who asks a question is a fool for a minute. He who does not ask is a fool for life > > Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, > a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. > > > > On 8/20/2025 5:34 PM, Gary Handelin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jay, > I couldn't find anyone in the Reno area either so I went searching. Try > Batteryrecyclersofamerica.com 866.827.1830 I spoke to them last week and > they will schedule a truck to pick them up after I have them on a pallet > ready for shipment. Still waiting to find out what I need to do but I > think it's just wrapping them in plastic, making sure not to include too > much weight and possibly adding some decals. If they don't come thru I > guess plan B might be to flush them, get the lead out, and make more > bullets for my 45 long colt (ought to be several thousand rounds). > Gary > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2025 at 1:45 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > HI All > > I just got back from my local recycler. He won’t take the GNB AGM > batteries. > He said his ultimate buyer in california won’t buy them. > > Has any one else seen this? > > thanks > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 21 18:13:50 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 16:13:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries In-Reply-To: References: <5C5BF2F4-4598-4B8A-A820-DE5116DA2004@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95699138-3256-42E1-A839-BB417F4AEA09@gmail.com> It is definitely chaos about all this. I did get the SDS from GNB or now its Stryten. And sent it to my recycler who’s sending on to his end buyer in California. Which I’m guessing then goes onto china for melting? And contiental battery, the actual battery company has an office in ABQ who was gracious to actually look up the info and they said it had a lithium content which just can’t go into the melting process. But the SDS doesn’t list it. I don’t know who’s correct, I’m just hoping I can them recycled > On Aug 21, 2025, at 3:59 PM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hey Jay, > > I was able to get 0.23/lb here in NY for the GNB Absolyte 2v cells. I've got one more set to recycle next week. > > Christopher > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 10:35 AM Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> $0.16 per lb in northern CA >> >> Bryan Norkunas >> PV-Cables, Inc. >> 989 Milton Ave Ste 1-D >> Ferndale, CA 95536 >> 707-923-3000 office >> >> From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Bob-O via RE-wrenches > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2025 9:06:51 PM >> To: RE-wrenches > >> Cc: Bob-O > >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] recycling AGM batteries >> >> Last I checked in OR, Interstate was paying 0.10/lb >> Bob-O >> >> On Aug 20, 2025, at 7:04 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >>  >> I'm about to take 24 L16 FLA batteries off an island. Any idea how much Interstate pays? I'm giving the owner the salvage money, charging for our labor and transport costs. He would like to know what to expect. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Wed, Aug 20, 2025, 6:37 PM Roy Butler via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Interstate Battery takes mine. They should have a store somewhere near you. >> Roy Butler >> Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC >> 8902 Route 46 , Arkport, NY 14807 >> 607-324-9747 >> >> Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. >> >> “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” >> >> He who asks a question is a fool for a minute. He who does not ask is a fool for life >> >> Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, >> a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. >> >> >> On 8/20/2025 5:34 PM, Gary Handelin via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> Jay, >>> I couldn't find anyone in the Reno area either so I went searching. Try Batteryrecyclersofamerica.com 866.827.1830 I spoke to them last week and they will schedule a truck to pick them up after I have them on a pallet ready for shipment. Still waiting to find out what I need to do but I think it's just wrapping them in plastic, making sure not to include too much weight and possibly adding some decals. If they don't come thru I guess plan B might be to flush them, get the lead out, and make more bullets for my 45 long colt (ought to be several thousand rounds). >>> Gary >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2025 at 1:45 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> HI All >>> >>> I just got back from my local recycler. He won’t take the GNB AGM batteries. >>> He said his ultimate buyer in california won’t buy them. >>> >>> Has any one else seen this? >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> jay >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Aug 22 15:54:25 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 15:54:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to shed a load in a subpanel that is in a building other than where the solar system is interconnected In-Reply-To: References: <5C5BF2F4-4598-4B8A-A820-DE5116DA2004@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <39c8644b-7857-4375-be66-8d3cbb7c6b9b@entech-engineering.com> We installed a 4kW Outback multimode system about 8 years ago.  An electrician came in afterwards and installed 3 heat pumps on the battery backed up power panels.  The Outback inverter disconnected on load every time there was a power outage. The electrician really messed up and is long gone. Also found out did not pull a permit. But I digress.  We managed to move two of the heat pump circuit breakers to the utility panel, so no longer on the battery backed up power panels.  The third heat pump is the problem as it is located in an apartment building remote from the main house. The whole apartment subpanel, including the heat pump load  is interconnected to the "main" battery backed up power panel in the home. A master electrician and I are considering how to shed the apartment heat pump in a power outage.  We cannot easily run a separate circuit to the apartment building to pick up this load.  We have considered a smart panel, but the cost seems high for one circuit. Does anyone know of a power line product of RF product or similar that could operate this breaker when the main service panel loses power? I have been unsuccessful over months of sporadic research. Thanks in advance. Chris -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 From marco at pvthawaii.com Fri Aug 22 15:57:45 2025 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 09:57:45 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IRS 25D Message-ID: Just released yesterday. https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/faqs-for-modification-of-sections-25c-25d-25e-30c-30d-45l-45w-and-179d-under-public-law-119-21-139-stat-72-july-4-2025-commonly-known-as-the-one-big-beautiful-bill-act-obbb 7. For purposes of the residential clean energy credit under section 25D, can a credit be claimed for property installed after December 31, 2025, or constructed after that date, if a taxpayer pays for the property on or before December 31, 2025? No. Section 25D(e)(8)(A) provides that an expenditure with respect to an item is treated as made when the original installation of the item is completed. If installation is completed after December 31, 2025, the expenditure will be treated as made after December 31, 2025, which will prevent the taxpayer from claiming the section 25D credit. In the case of an expenditure made in connection with the construction or reconstruction of a structure, section 25D(e)(8)(B) provides that such expenditure will be treated as made when the original use of the constructed or reconstructed structure by the taxpayer begins. If such construction or reconstruction is completed and taxpayer’s original use of the structure begins after December 31, 2025, the expenditure will be treated as made after December 31, 2025, which will prevent the taxpayer from claiming the section 25D credit. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 22 17:07:22 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 15:07:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IRS 25D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for the clarification. Jay > On Aug 22, 2025, at 1:58 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Just released yesterday. > > https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/faqs-for-modification-of-sections-25c-25d-25e-30c-30d-45l-45w-and-179d-under-public-law-119-21-139-stat-72-july-4-2025-commonly-known-as-the-one-big-beautiful-bill-act-obbb > 7. For purposes of the residential clean energy credit under section 25D, can a credit be claimed for property installed after December 31, 2025, or constructed after that date, if a taxpayer pays for the property on or before December 31, 2025? > No. Section 25D(e)(8)(A) provides that an expenditure with respect to an item is treated as made when the original installation of the item is completed. If installation is completed after December 31, 2025, the expenditure will be treated as made after December 31, 2025, which will prevent the taxpayer from claiming the section 25D credit. In the case of an expenditure made in connection with the construction or reconstruction of a structure, section 25D(e)(8)(B) provides that such expenditure will be treated as made when the original use of the constructed or reconstructed structure by the taxpayer begins. If such construction or reconstruction is completed and taxpayer’s original use of the structure begins after December 31, 2025, the expenditure will be treated as made after December 31, 2025, which will prevent the taxpayer from claiming the section 25D credit. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Aug 22 20:20:33 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 20:20:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to shed a load in a subpanel that is in a building other than where the solar system is interconnected In-Reply-To: <39c8644b-7857-4375-be66-8d3cbb7c6b9b@entech-engineering.com> References: <5C5BF2F4-4598-4B8A-A820-DE5116DA2004@yahoo.com> <39c8644b-7857-4375-be66-8d3cbb7c6b9b@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, I’m wondering if a load management device like this could be helpful? However, it does not discern between grid presence and island mode, so it might not fit the bill. https://www.getstepwise.com/product?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=22363404421&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqqDFBhDhARIsAIHTlkub687mJZYb6g0nIR33X1eA2FVY3bMc_zBxMr44IEl5a7QenVljhUgaArKeEALw_wcB Quick caveat that shedding an HVAC unit potentially mid cycle is not ideal for the health of that unit…but neither is an overload and subsequent power failure. I do know that Lumin Smart sells remote CTs for grid detection. Might be worth a call to them to see if this fairly inexpensive product can pair with a remote contactor to open the HVAC circuit. Best of luck! -Chris On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 3:54 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We installed a 4kW Outback multimode system about 8 years ago. An > electrician came in afterwards and installed 3 heat pumps on the battery > backed up power panels. The Outback inverter disconnected on load every > time there was a power outage. The electrician really messed up and is > long gone. Also found out did not pull a permit. But I digress. We > managed to move two of the heat pump circuit breakers to the utility > panel, so no longer on the battery backed up power panels. The third > heat pump is the problem as it is located in an apartment building > remote from the main house. The whole apartment subpanel, including the > heat pump load is interconnected to the "main" battery backed up power > panel in the home. > > A master electrician and I are considering how to shed the apartment > heat pump in a power outage. We cannot easily run a separate circuit to > the apartment building to pick up this load. We have considered a smart > panel, but the cost seems high for one circuit. Does anyone know of a > power line product of RF product or similar that could operate this > breaker when the main service panel loses power? I have been > unsuccessful over months of sporadic research. > > Thanks in advance. > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block > Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Aug 22 20:37:18 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 20:37:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to shed a load in a subpanel that is in a building other than where the solar system is interconnected In-Reply-To: References: <5C5BF2F4-4598-4B8A-A820-DE5116DA2004@yahoo.com> <39c8644b-7857-4375-be66-8d3cbb7c6b9b@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: There is a company called Savant, I’ve seen their individual Smart breakers installed in sqd Panels - they are individual smart breakers. A single pole breaker would actually take up two slots one for the OCPD itself, and one for the sp relay. Don’t know exactly how it operates, but I know you don’t have to buy an entire smart panel for it to work. As discussed on this forum, also, there are also RF transmitter/ receivers, which can do what you ask. Used them to disconnect an inverter from a common AC bus when the gennie turns on. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 8:21 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I’m wondering if a load management device like this could be helpful? > However, it does not discern between grid presence and island mode, so it > might not fit the bill. > > > https://www.getstepwise.com/product?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=22363404421&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqqDFBhDhARIsAIHTlkub687mJZYb6g0nIR33X1eA2FVY3bMc_zBxMr44IEl5a7QenVljhUgaArKeEALw_wcB > > Quick caveat that shedding an HVAC unit potentially mid cycle is not ideal > for the health of that unit…but neither is an overload and subsequent power > failure. > > I do know that Lumin Smart sells remote CTs for grid detection. Might be > worth a call to them to see if this fairly inexpensive product can pair > with a remote contactor to open the HVAC circuit. > > Best of luck! > > -Chris > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 3:54 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We installed a 4kW Outback multimode system about 8 years ago. An >> electrician came in afterwards and installed 3 heat pumps on the battery >> backed up power panels. The Outback inverter disconnected on load every >> time there was a power outage. The electrician really messed up and is >> long gone. Also found out did not pull a permit. But I digress. We >> managed to move two of the heat pump circuit breakers to the utility >> panel, so no longer on the battery backed up power panels. The third >> heat pump is the problem as it is located in an apartment building >> remote from the main house. The whole apartment subpanel, including the >> heat pump load is interconnected to the "main" battery backed up power >> panel in the home. >> >> A master electrician and I are considering how to shed the apartment >> heat pump in a power outage. We cannot easily run a separate circuit to >> the apartment building to pick up this load. We have considered a smart >> panel, but the cost seems high for one circuit. Does anyone know of a >> power line product of RF product or similar that could operate this >> breaker when the main service panel loses power? I have been >> unsuccessful over months of sporadic research. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block >> Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Aug 23 09:30:49 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2025 09:30:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to shed a load in a subpanel that is in a building other than where the solar system is interconnected In-Reply-To: <39c8644b-7857-4375-be66-8d3cbb7c6b9b@entech-engineering.com> References: <5C5BF2F4-4598-4B8A-A820-DE5116DA2004@yahoo.com> <39c8644b-7857-4375-be66-8d3cbb7c6b9b@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <3d90e99dfa0ab9b239648ba896a265e8@redwoodalliance.org> Can you use a contactor with the coil wires connected to the AC IN of the Outback? When incoming AC goes down, the contactor will open to shed the compressor circuit. _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-08-22 15:54, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > We installed a 4kW Outback multimode system about 8 years ago. An > electrician came in afterwards and installed 3 heat pumps on the > battery backed up power panels. The Outback inverter disconnected on > load every time there was a power outage. The electrician really > messed up and is long gone. Also found out did not pull a permit. But > I digress. We managed to move two of the heat pump circuit breakers > to the utility panel, so no longer on the battery backed up power > panels. The third heat pump is the problem as it is located in an > apartment building remote from the main house. The whole apartment > subpanel, including the heat pump load is interconnected to the > "main" battery backed up power panel in the home. > > A master electrician and I are considering how to shed the apartment > heat pump in a power outage. We cannot easily run a separate circuit > to the apartment building to pick up this load. We have considered a > smart panel, but the cost seems high for one circuit. Does anyone know > of a power line product of RF product or similar that could operate > this breaker when the main service panel loses power? I have been > unsuccessful over months of sporadic research. > > Thanks in advance. > > Chris > > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block > Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Aug 23 09:37:20 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2025 09:37:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to shed a load in a subpanel that is in a building other than where the solar system is interconnected In-Reply-To: <3d90e99dfa0ab9b239648ba896a265e8@redwoodalliance.org> References: <5C5BF2F4-4598-4B8A-A820-DE5116DA2004@yahoo.com> <39c8644b-7857-4375-be66-8d3cbb7c6b9b@entech-engineering.com> <3d90e99dfa0ab9b239648ba896a265e8@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <032afbaf95050fd46418789787825242@redwoodalliance.org> P.S. You would need to run the control wires back to the inverter. Can you possibly run a pair of #16 wires the through the conduit feeding the building with the compressor? --- On 2025-08-23 09:30, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > Can you use a contactor with the coil wires connected to the AC IN of > the Outback? When incoming AC goes down, the contactor will open to > shed the compressor circuit. > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2025-08-22 15:54, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> We installed a 4kW Outback multimode system about 8 years ago. An >> electrician came in afterwards and installed 3 heat pumps on the >> battery backed up power panels. The Outback inverter disconnected on >> load every time there was a power outage. The electrician really >> messed up and is long gone. Also found out did not pull a permit. But >> I digress. We managed to move two of the heat pump circuit breakers >> to the utility panel, so no longer on the battery backed up power >> panels. The third heat pump is the problem as it is located in an >> apartment building remote from the main house. The whole apartment >> subpanel, including the heat pump load is interconnected to the >> "main" battery backed up power panel in the home. >> >> A master electrician and I are considering how to shed the apartment >> heat pump in a power outage. We cannot easily run a separate circuit >> to the apartment building to pick up this load. We have considered a >> smart panel, but the cost seems high for one circuit. Does anyone know >> of a power line product of RF product or similar that could operate >> this breaker when the main service panel loses power? I have been >> unsuccessful over months of sporadic research. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Chris >> >> -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block >> Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat Aug 23 15:43:15 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2025 15:43:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to shed a load in a subpanel that is in a building other than where the solar system is interconnected In-Reply-To: References: <5C5BF2F4-4598-4B8A-A820-DE5116DA2004@yahoo.com> <39c8644b-7857-4375-be66-8d3cbb7c6b9b@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Thanks, the problem is we need it to disconnect only upon loss of utility power, and it is on the battery loads panel. The panel for the HVAC is in another building that the HVAC serves. On 8/22/2025 8:20 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I’m wondering if a load management device like this could be helpful? > However, it does not discern between grid presence and island mode, so > it might not fit the bill. > > https://www.getstepwise.com/product?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=22363404421&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqqDFBhDhARIsAIHTlkub687mJZYb6g0nIR33X1eA2FVY3bMc_zBxMr44IEl5a7QenVljhUgaArKeEALw_wcB > > > Quick caveat that shedding an HVAC unit potentially mid cycle is not > ideal for the health of that unit…but neither is an overload and > subsequent power failure. > > I do know that Lumin Smart sells remote CTs for grid detection. Might > be worth a call to them to see if this fairly inexpensive product can > pair with a remote contactor to open the HVAC circuit. > > Best of luck! > > -Chris > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 3:54 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > We installed a 4kW Outback multimode system about 8 years ago. An > electrician came in afterwards and installed 3 heat pumps on the > battery > backed up power panels.  The Outback inverter disconnected on load > every > time there was a power outage. The electrician really messed up > and is > long gone. Also found out did not pull a permit. But I digress.  We > managed to move two of the heat pump circuit breakers to the utility > panel, so no longer on the battery backed up power panels. The third > heat pump is the problem as it is located in an apartment building > remote from the main house. The whole apartment subpanel, > including the > heat pump load  is interconnected to the "main" battery backed up > power > panel in the home. > > A master electrician and I are considering how to shed the apartment > heat pump in a power outage.  We cannot easily run a separate > circuit to > the apartment building to pick up this load.  We have considered a > smart > panel, but the cost seems high for one circuit. Does anyone know of a > power line product of RF product or similar that could operate this > breaker when the main service panel loses power? I have been > unsuccessful over months of sporadic research. > > Thanks in advance. > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block > Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat Aug 23 15:43:57 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2025 15:43:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to shed a load in a subpanel that is in a building other than where the solar system is interconnected In-Reply-To: References: <5C5BF2F4-4598-4B8A-A820-DE5116DA2004@yahoo.com> <39c8644b-7857-4375-be66-8d3cbb7c6b9b@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <0c205fe2-a2cb-4b43-a716-9926fe774235@entech-engineering.com> Thank you, I did find their website and seeing if it has a chance.  Chris On 8/22/2025 8:37 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote: > There is a company called Savant, I’ve seen their individual Smart > breakers installed in sqd Panels - they are individual smart breakers. > A single pole breaker would actually take up two slots one for the > OCPD itself, and one for the sp relay. Don’t know exactly how it > operates, but I know you don’t have to buy an entire smart panel for > it to work. > > As discussed on this forum, also, there are also RF transmitter/ > receivers, which can do what you ask. Used them to disconnect an > inverter from a common AC bus when the gennie turns on. > > > * > * > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > */Celebrating our 34^st  Anniversary 1991-2025!!/* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 8:21 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > I’m wondering if a load management device like this could be > helpful? However, it does not discern between grid presence and > island mode, so it might not fit the bill. > > https://www.getstepwise.com/product?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=22363404421&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqqDFBhDhARIsAIHTlkub687mJZYb6g0nIR33X1eA2FVY3bMc_zBxMr44IEl5a7QenVljhUgaArKeEALw_wcB > > > Quick caveat that shedding an HVAC unit potentially mid cycle is > not ideal for the health of that unit…but neither is an overload > and subsequent power failure. > > I do know that Lumin Smart sells remote CTs for grid detection. > Might be worth a call to them to see if this fairly > inexpensive product can pair with a remote contactor to open the > HVAC circuit. > > Best of luck! > > -Chris > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 3:54 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > We installed a 4kW Outback multimode system about 8 years > ago.  An > electrician came in afterwards and installed 3 heat pumps on > the battery > backed up power panels.  The Outback inverter disconnected on > load every > time there was a power outage. The electrician really messed > up and is > long gone. Also found out did not pull a permit. But I > digress.  We > managed to move two of the heat pump circuit breakers to the > utility > panel, so no longer on the battery backed up power panels.  > The third > heat pump is the problem as it is located in an apartment > building > remote from the main house. The whole apartment subpanel, > including the > heat pump load  is interconnected to the "main" battery backed > up power > panel in the home. > > A master electrician and I are considering how to shed the > apartment > heat pump in a power outage.  We cannot easily run a separate > circuit to > the apartment building to pick up this load.  We have > considered a smart > panel, but the cost seems high for one circuit. Does anyone > know of a > power line product of RF product or similar that could operate > this > breaker when the main service panel loses power? I have been > unsuccessful over months of sporadic research. > > Thanks in advance. > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, > Block > Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat Aug 23 15:45:33 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2025 15:45:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to shed a load in a subpanel that is in a building other than where the solar system is interconnected In-Reply-To: <032afbaf95050fd46418789787825242@redwoodalliance.org> References: <5C5BF2F4-4598-4B8A-A820-DE5116DA2004@yahoo.com> <39c8644b-7857-4375-be66-8d3cbb7c6b9b@entech-engineering.com> <3d90e99dfa0ab9b239648ba896a265e8@redwoodalliance.org> <032afbaf95050fd46418789787825242@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <548637f8-e307-434c-a784-56382659dcad@entech-engineering.com> Thank you, It's pretty tight, I am hoping for some radio or wifi breaker to send a signal.  Just no luck yet. Chris On 8/23/2025 9:37 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > P.S. > > You would need to run the control wires back to the inverter. Can you > possibly run a pair of #16 wires the through the conduit feeding the > building with the compressor? > > --- > > > On 2025-08-23 09:30, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Can you use a contactor with the coil wires connected to the AC IN of >> the Outback? When incoming AC goes down, the contactor will open to >> shed the compressor circuit. >> >> /Drake Chamberlin/ >> >> /Athens Electric LLC/ >> >> /Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810/ >> >> /NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/ >> >> >> >> --- >> >> >> On 2025-08-22 15:54, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> We installed a 4kW Outback multimode system about 8 years ago.  An >> electrician came in afterwards and installed 3 heat pumps on the >> battery backed up power panels.  The Outback inverter disconnected on >> load every time there was a power outage. The electrician really >> messed up and is long gone. Also found out did not pull a permit. But >> I digress.  We managed to move two of the heat pump circuit breakers >> to the utility panel, so no longer on the battery backed up power >> panels.  The third heat pump is the problem as it is located in an >> apartment building remote from the main house. The whole apartment >> subpanel, including the heat pump load  is interconnected to the >> "main" battery backed up power panel in the home. >> >> A master electrician and I are considering how to shed the apartment >> heat pump in a power outage.  We cannot easily run a separate circuit >> to the apartment building to pick up this load.  We have considered a >> smart panel, but the cost seems high for one circuit. Does anyone >> know >> of a power line product of RF product or similar that could operate >> this breaker when the main service panel loses power? I have been >> unsuccessful over months of sporadic research. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block >> Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Aug 24 17:25:28 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2025 15:25:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charger for 2v cell Message-ID: <5E9092BD-D66A-4929-9424-28A50223156B@gmail.com> Any recommendations for a charger to charge up a 2v lead acid 1100 amp hr battery? Needs to actually be 2.5-3v Thanks in advance Jay From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Aug 25 09:16:23 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2025 09:16:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dana, Since Zonna, an Outback major distributor, hasn't seen any motion, it seems unlikely they will recover. I think that they may be waiting for the "big beautiful factory" in Texas to be built in Texas with Trump JR money. Looks like the next Trump failure coming. I decided to trust one of the few companies left for Off Grid quality equipment. I just completed my first Midnite Solar Rosie installation replacing a Trace SW4024, and turned it on last night. I like it and I guess we move on. All my used Classics taken back in trade for FM 100s to complete the Optics monitoring will now work with the Rosie to make a nice system. I just need to dive into the details of Midnite monitoring. John Blittersdorf Off Grid Vermont On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just > died.? > I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is > OUTBACK > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Aug 25 10:00:59 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2025 14:00:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <045EF494-ABFF-4AE0-94BB-9D63E5618145@solarwork.com> Good to know and thank you I have a small collection of in the box, new FM 60s and 80s Work with the Midnite monitoring system Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 On Aug 25, 2025, at 7:18 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote:  Dana, Since Zonna, an Outback major distributor, hasn't seen any motion, it seems unlikely they will recover. I think that they may be waiting for the "big beautiful factory" in Texas to be built in Texas with Trump JR money. Looks like the next Trump failure coming. I decided to trust one of the few companies left for Off Grid quality equipment. I just completed my first Midnite Solar Rosie installation replacing a Trace SW4024, and turned it on last night. I like it and I guess we move on. All my used Classics taken back in trade for FM 100s to complete the Optics monitoring will now work with the Rosie to make a nice system. I just need to dive into the details of Midnite monitoring. John Blittersdorf Off Grid Vermont On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just died.? I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is OUTBACK Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Aug 25 10:43:46 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2025 08:43:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <121D7875-B091-4BC0-9CD4-3433F226D115@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Aug 25 17:42:17 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2025 21:42:17 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charger for 2v cell In-Reply-To: <5E9092BD-D66A-4929-9424-28A50223156B@gmail.com> References: <5E9092BD-D66A-4929-9424-28A50223156B@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've been using one of these for years for 2V cell maint - adjustable from 0 to 36V, and the display of current and volts is useful. https://testequipment.center/Products/GW-Instek-PSH-3630A Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: August-24-25 2:25 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charger for 2v cell Any recommendations for a charger to charge up a 2v lead acid 1100 amp hr battery? Needs to actually be 2.5-3v Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From iesbatteries at gmail.com Tue Aug 26 07:50:48 2025 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 07:50:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snap N Rack Message-ID: Good morning all, In their innate wisdom, Snap N Rack has once again stopped making an entire line of parts and discontinued others without notice to the people who keep them in business. I have a job in the Caribbean that requires, due to the unique style of corrugated roof we're installing on, their discontinued corrugated straddle block (part #232-02421). I have found 160, but need another 160 (or more) if anyone has any on a shelf somewhere. Unfortunately, these are the only part that is available for corrugated roofing that will work with this roof. Please contact me off list if you have any (or leads to any) TIA, Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 Island Energy Storage (207) 479-2252 Virus-free.www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Tue Aug 26 08:08:44 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 08:08:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OUTBACK power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dana, The Rosie is amazing to watch. I hooked up the customers 120V 30 amp generator and watched the Rosie charge his batteries at about 2500 watts on leg 2 and ran his house on leg 1. I still have the jumper in his main panel to activate all the breakers. He has a 120V well pump but if he had to replace it, it could be 240 by simply pulling the jumper. On Mon, Aug 25, 2025 at 9:16 AM John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > Dana, Since Zonna, an Outback major distributor, hasn't seen any motion, > it seems > unlikely they will recover. I think that they may be waiting for the "big > beautiful factory" in Texas > to be built in Texas with Trump JR money. Looks like the next Trump > failure coming. I decided > to trust one of the few companies left for Off Grid quality equipment. I > just completed my first Midnite Solar > Rosie installation replacing a Trace SW4024, and turned it on last night. > I like it and I guess we move on. > All my used Classics taken back in trade for FM 100s to complete the > Optics monitoring will now > work with the Rosie to make a nice system. I just need to dive into the > details of Midnite monitoring. > > John Blittersdorf > Off Grid Vermont > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2025 at 11:30 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Any word on whether OUTBACK power is coming back to life or they just >> died.? >> I sure miss the products personally, not to mention my whole system is >> OUTBACK >> Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Tue Aug 26 14:11:37 2025 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 12:11:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 battery OK with Magnum electronics? Message-ID: Hi, Mechanix~ A longtime client has a Magnasine 4024 inverter/charger, PT-100 charge controller, BMK battery monitoring kit & the ARC Advanced Remote with 4.0 firmware. He'd like to upgrade from L-16 floodies to five of the EG4 LL24V 200 AH batteries in a cabinet. I've reviewed the EG4 info for care & feeding, alongside various menus in the Advanced Remote manual, and it looks like the Magnum setting ranges are compatible. Before shipping out the money, I'd like to know any feedback from the Wrenches about how things are working when these product families are combined. At times I've noticed strange behavior with the Magnasine inverters during charge cycles. As I recall, the units jump from Bulk to Float soon after generator driven charging gets under way. For clients with old or compromised lead acid floodies, I've occasionally set Float and Bulk to the same target voltage. These are off grid setups where the generator noise keeps the client aware that charge is underway. Most of these clients don't have the generator automated, which is also true for my 2025 EG4 customer. I won't try that "Float @ Bulk voltage" trick with lithium, of course. Any & all war stories would be welcomed. As always, "The Wrench List is the Bomb!" Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Tue Aug 26 15:59:46 2025 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 12:59:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 battery OK with Magnum electronics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mick, I've connected other LFP batteries to the Magnasine. It is possible to make the charger settings all work but it is difficult to get the AGS settings right for a start voltage. There is a "lithium compatible" firmware version for the remote, but good luck at find one of those for now. The elephant in the closet with the Magnasine is that if the system goes through a power-on cycle with the remote detached, then the inverter operates with its default settings. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 8/26/2025 11:11 AM, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi, Mechanix~ A longtime client has a Magnasine 4024 inverter/charger, > PT-100 charge controller, BMK battery monitoring kit & the ARC > Advanced Remote with 4.0 firmware. > He'd like to upgrade from L-16 floodies to five of the EG4 LL24V 200 > AH batteries in a cabinet. > > I've reviewed the EG4 info for care & feeding, alongside various menus > in the Advanced Remote manual, and it looks like the Magnum setting > ranges are compatible. Before shipping out the money, > I'd like to know any feedback from the Wrenches about how things are > working when these product families are combined. > > At times I've noticed strange behavior with the Magnasine inverters > during charge cycles. As I recall, the units jump from Bulk to Float > soon after generator driven charging gets under way. For clients with > old or compromised lead acid floodies, I've occasionally set Float and > Bulk to the same target voltage. These are off grid setups where the > generator noise keeps the client aware that charge is underway. Most > of these clients don't have the generator automated, which is also > true for my 2025 EG4 customer. > > I won't try that "Float @ Bulk voltage" trick with lithium, of course. > Any & all war stories would be welcomed. As always, "The Wrench List > is the Bomb!" > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 26 16:17:35 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:17:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 battery OK with Magnum electronics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Tue Aug 26 17:51:01 2025 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 14:51:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 battery OK with Magnum electronics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fuzzy memory here. It had to do with a setting that should have been adjustable but wasn't. I think the voltage start won't trip until the voltage goes below the re-bulk voltage (not adjustable - it was designed for lead acid). Obviously it depends on the firmware version, the lithium compatible firmware doesn't have that problem. A Morningstar relay driver makes for a suitable AGS as an alternative. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 8/26/2025 1:17 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Any idea what the issue is with the ags and lithium? > > A buddy had a nightmare situation trying to get that to work, even > just with voltage it never worked right. > Doesn’t make any sense. > But then I had nothing but problems with magnum and gave up on them. > I know others here who love them. > > Jay > >> On Aug 26, 2025, at 2:00 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  Mick, >> >> I've connected other LFP batteries to the Magnasine. It is possible >> to make the charger settings all work but it is difficult to get the >> AGS settings right for a start voltage. There is a "lithium >> compatible" firmware version for the remote, but good luck at find >> one of those for now. >> The elephant in the closet with the Magnasine is that if the system >> goes through a power-on cycle with the remote detached, then the >> inverter operates with its default settings. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 8/26/2025 11:11 AM, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> Hi, Mechanix~ A longtime client has a Magnasine 4024 >>> inverter/charger, PT-100 charge controller, BMK battery monitoring >>> kit & the ARC Advanced Remote with 4.0 firmware. >>> He'd like to upgrade from L-16 floodies to five of the EG4 LL24V 200 >>> AH batteries in a cabinet. >>> >>> I've reviewed the EG4 info for care & feeding, alongside various >>> menus in the Advanced Remote manual, and it looks like the Magnum >>> setting ranges are compatible. Before shipping out the money, >>> I'd like to know any feedback from the Wrenches about how things are >>> working when these product families are combined. >>> >>> At times I've noticed strange behavior with the Magnasine inverters >>> during charge cycles. As I recall, the units jump from Bulk to Float >>> soon after generator driven charging gets under way. For clients >>> with old or compromised lead acid floodies, I've occasionally set >>> Float and Bulk to the same target voltage. These are off grid setups >>> where the generator noise keeps the client aware that charge is >>> underway. Most of these clients don't have the generator >>> automated, which is also true for my 2025 EG4 customer. >>> >>> I won't try that "Float @ Bulk voltage" trick with lithium, of >>> course. Any & all war stories would be welcomed. As always, "The >>> Wrench List is the Bomb!" >>> >>> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >>> www.abrahamsolar.com >>> >>> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >>> ᐧ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 26 20:09:29 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 18:09:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 battery OK with Magnum electronics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48CE4C35-0480-40D2-80FE-124E52465586@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Aug 26 21:39:12 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 01:39:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 battery OK with Magnum electronics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mick, It can be made to work, yes, I have done a few, 48V, but same idea. But it’s sub optimal mixing brands. Given how low cost the EG4 inverters are, like the 6000XP I’m telling my clients upgrade it all and be done with it, and go up to 48V. I’m presently doing that with a DR1512 dual power board I put in 18 years ago. The L16’s were a couple years overdue for replacement, and for extra low cost, put an EG4 6000XP in and be done with it. Tie in the remote monitoring and then can have a really good view on the entire system and the individual batteries. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2025 11:12 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Mick Abraham Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 battery OK with Magnum electronics? Hi, Mechanix~ A longtime client has a Magnasine 4024 inverter/charger, PT-100 charge controller, BMK battery monitoring kit & the ARC Advanced Remote with 4.0 firmware. He'd like to upgrade from L-16 floodies to five of the EG4 LL24V 200 AH batteries in a cabinet. I've reviewed the EG4 info for care & feeding, alongside various menus in the Advanced Remote manual, and it looks like the Magnum setting ranges are compatible. Before shipping out the money, I'd like to know any feedback from the Wrenches about how things are working when these product families are combined. At times I've noticed strange behavior with the Magnasine inverters during charge cycles. As I recall, the units jump from Bulk to Float soon after generator driven charging gets under way. For clients with old or compromised lead acid floodies, I've occasionally set Float and Bulk to the same target voltage. These are off grid setups where the generator noise keeps the client aware that charge is underway. Most of these clients don't have the generator automated, which is also true for my 2025 EG4 customer. I won't try that "Float @ Bulk voltage" trick with lithium, of course. Any & all war stories would be welcomed. As always, "The Wrench List is the Bomb!" Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Aug 26 21:46:44 2025 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 01:46:44 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple Rosie Installs Message-ID: Wrenches If anyone has installed multiple Midnite Rosie Inverters with the MNS EPanels can you share some photos? I’m getting ready to set up a system and I’m looking for ideas. Should I use 12x12 Gutters? Maybe smaller? We will have multiple MP Powerlo 16 batteries as well. All on one common wall. Thanks in advance Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent from Jeremy's iPhone. From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Tue Aug 26 22:25:42 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 22:25:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple Rosie Installs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jeremy The smallest I would use is a 10X10. It works well with that gutter. On Tue, Aug 26, 2025 at 9:47 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches > If anyone has installed multiple Midnite Rosie Inverters with the MNS > EPanels can you share some photos? > I’m getting ready to set up a system and I’m looking for ideas. Should I > use 12x12 Gutters? Maybe smaller? > We will have multiple MP Powerlo 16 batteries as well. All on one common > wall. > Thanks in advance > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent from Jeremy's iPhone. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 27 08:47:26 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 06:47:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 battery OK with Magnum electronics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44798BE7-2A5A-4C17-B4E6-03CF435285EB@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Wed Aug 27 09:04:10 2025 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 09:04:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 battery OK with Magnum electronics? In-Reply-To: <44798BE7-2A5A-4C17-B4E6-03CF435285EB@gmail.com> References: <44798BE7-2A5A-4C17-B4E6-03CF435285EB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Has Victron come out with a 240V unit yet? On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 8:47 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Certainly a good idea or think about victron too. > > > > On Aug 26, 2025, at 7:39 PM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Mick, > > > > It can be made to work, yes, I have done a few, 48V, but same idea. But > it’s sub optimal mixing brands. > > > > Given how low cost the EG4 inverters are, like the 6000XP I’m telling my > clients upgrade it all and be done with it, and go up to 48V. I’m presently > doing that with a DR1512 dual power board I put in 18 years ago. The L16’s > were a couple years overdue for replacement, and for extra low cost, put an > EG4 6000XP in and be done with it. Tie in the remote monitoring and then > can have a really good view on the entire system and the individual > batteries. > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 26, 2025 11:12 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Mick Abraham > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] EG4 battery OK with Magnum electronics? > > > > Hi, Mechanix~ A longtime client has a Magnasine 4024 inverter/charger, > PT-100 charge controller, BMK battery monitoring kit & the ARC Advanced > Remote with 4.0 firmware. > > He'd like to upgrade from L-16 floodies to five of the EG4 LL24V 200 AH > batteries in a cabinet. > > > > I've reviewed the EG4 info for care & feeding, alongside various menus in > the Advanced Remote manual, and it looks like the Magnum setting ranges are > compatible. Before shipping out the money, > > I'd like to know any feedback from the Wrenches about how things are > working when these product families are combined. > > > > At times I've noticed strange behavior with the Magnasine inverters during > charge cycles. As I recall, the units jump from Bulk to Float soon after > generator driven charging gets under way. For clients with old or > compromised lead acid floodies, I've occasionally set Float and Bulk to the > same target voltage. These are off grid setups where the generator noise > keeps the client aware that charge is underway. Most of these clients don't > have the generator automated, which is also true for my 2025 EG4 customer. > > > > I won't try that "Float @ Bulk voltage" trick with lithium, of course. Any > & all war stories would be welcomed. As always, "The Wrench List is the > Bomb!" > > > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Aug 27 10:40:42 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 07:40:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large ferrules Message-ID: Friends: More inverters these days present lugs for battery connections instead of studs. I bought some 2/0 and 4/0 ferrules to accommodate the fine stranded MTW we use. I have a cheap hex crimper but the results are poor with a sharp “wing” on either side of the crimp. What does the hive mind suggest for a ferrule and crimper for these larger wire sizes? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sue at midnitesolar.com Wed Aug 27 10:58:54 2025 From: Sue at midnitesolar.com (Sue Stankevitz) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 14:58:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple Rosie Installs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jeremy, Here is a picture of my dual Rosie system. With backplates you can use a 6" gutter but you will need to space it 1" out, as pictured. Ideally an 8" gutter would be suitable. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2025 9:47 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple Rosie Installs Wrenches If anyone has installed multiple Midnite Rosie Inverters with the MNS EPanels can you share some photos? I’m getting ready to set up a system and I’m looking for ideas. Should I use 12x12 Gutters? Maybe smaller? We will have multiple MP Powerlo 16 batteries as well. All on one common wall. Thanks in advance Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent from Jeremy's iPhone. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_20250827_085009464.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 716039 bytes Desc: IMG_20250827_085009464.jpg URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Wed Aug 27 11:13:07 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:13:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverter with LFP batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have done a few upgrades with Magnum inverters on newer LFP batteries (EG4 LL series if they are a 12 or 24 volt magnum, various ones Midnite and Eclipse and ReLion for 48 volt magnums). The newer magnums (not sure exact date or firmware number) seem to be okay, other than LVD not really being adjustable high enough to function with an 8 or 16 cell LFP -- can work with a 15 cell LFP on 48 volts). I have heard that the older magnums just will not charge properly, as a few other folks here have described. I always try to have a BMK do SOC based generator control if using lithium, as voltage is very hard to get decent control with. But... make sure you get to recalibration settings for the BMS on the lithium batteries regularly, as SOC will drift over several weeks of low SOC cycling and be massively out of reality... I've seen it drift 1 or 2% a day, which isn't much if you get back to 100% each day, but is ALOT if you keep doing this for 3 or 4 weeks... like 50% different than reality... Best practice would be a SOC control for generator starting with a voltage catch as a backup in case SOC drifts. I have not heard that Victron has any intention of introducing a split phase unit. The US market is just not a big enough part of their worldwide sales it seems, and to them the ability to stack two 120 volt units in series solves this problem. You can also use a 230 volt EU unit set to 60Hz, and with an autotransformer to synthesize the neutral. Not UL listed that way, but it's another way to get 120/240 split phase from a single inverter for off grid use (not as useable on grid, as then you have to synthesize the neutral on both the input and output and the two neutrals are not exactly the same potential, so you end up having to run an isolated neutral on the backed up loads, which introduces even more code issues... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Aug 27 11:13:35 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:13:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 750 kcmil pulling Message-ID: Hi everyone, I have a wire pull coming up where each 4" conduit will have (2) 750 kcmil aluminum plus (2) 3/0 aluminum. I think this pull will proceed just like previous similar wire pulls, but I want to see if there are important tricks/details I should know about 750 kcmil size. I plan to rent the biggest tugger available and to have a bucket of lube stationed at the pipe entrance. We already ran mandrels through all conduits. The longest pull is about 500 ft. Thanks! David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Wed Aug 27 11:22:51 2025 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 15:22:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 750 kcmil pulling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mandrel is smart. I would pull with a clevis and compression grips of staggered lengths, though it seems like your pipe is plenty large. Matt From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of david quattro via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2025 11:14 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: david quattro Subject: [RE-wrenches] 750 kcmil pulling Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Hi everyone, I have a wire pull coming up where each 4" conduit will have (2) 750 kcmil aluminum plus (2) 3/0 aluminum. I think this pull will proceed just like previous similar wire pulls, but I want to see if there are important tricks/details I should know about 750 kcmil size. I plan to rent the biggest tugger available and to have a bucket of lube stationed at the pipe entrance. We already ran mandrels through all conduits. The longest pull is about 500 ft. Thanks! David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Wed Aug 27 11:31:03 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:31:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 750 kcmil pulling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Proper reel stands Proper reel spindles Proper pull rope Properly sized tugger Machine with lifting slings to place reels on stands Rent a Cable feeder (pulling 750s on 500' reels manually isn't reasonable) Radio person on each end to ensure tugger loses power if something goes wrong on the feeding end On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 8:16 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi everyone, I have a wire pull coming up where each 4" conduit will have > (2) 750 kcmil aluminum plus (2) 3/0 aluminum. I think this pull will > proceed just like previous similar wire pulls, but I want to see if there > are important tricks/details I should know about 750 kcmil size. I plan to > rent the biggest tugger available and to have a bucket of lube stationed at > the pipe entrance. We already ran mandrels through all conduits. The > longest pull is about 500 ft. Thanks! > David > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Aug 27 13:20:01 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 10:20:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large ferrules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.png Type: image/png Size: 97595 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Aug 27 13:28:46 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 11:28:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large ferrules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I always found the hexagonal crimpers to not work well with the thinner lugs that we usually use for batteries.  The hex crimpers are good for the UL listed heavy wall lugs however.  I have a couple of different crimpers that work like the one below: indent on one side and V on the other.  That type works well for thinner wall lugs.  I have had a Greenlee model, and currently have a chinese one that is fine, its similar to this: https://www.amazon.com/TEMCo-Lug-Crimper-Tool-TH0020/dp/B00HJYY5GA/ref=sr_1_29?crid=WJPOB8FQFZXS&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.HT-HDXBYyFjjk5TjKt6QKMkppx3Yxu_-ZdlB0Sd3_J6augD4A86iARok1LffooFx8LGsTHJmwZc_UedNJxKIwyYytfXTfV2tQcAhwV6L8yumAnyrKvHPtaWH948Nltb0dKJuv3_u-lMemWu2LUDEZ6xm2sVUjmY8EwoyUSquBSZZBDxsnKdBwpQ_AbggEE3EnZTTCzA1rQeMAQDkteCHM8vZossevOTUPVg1zjOkILazLLobN078ghbgieEkW5zK9cyKmuRKPWijPTRAF0RNKwIZwpvFWwjafPVTtX4B8gQ.rHXx_G8ZbhOUVr4Yq8nYy9fvO0CiOzvnsOTtKb_xZNI&dib_tag=se&keywords=large+wire+crimper&qid=1756315604&sprefix=large+crimper%2Caps%2C212&sr=8-29 Ray Remote Solar On 8/27/2025 11:20 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I use something like this, works great: > > image0.png > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > >> On Aug 27, 2025, at 7:41 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> Friends: >> >> More inverters these days present lugs for battery connections >> instead of studs. I bought some 2/0 and 4/0 ferrules to accommodate >> the fine stranded MTW we use. I have a cheap hex crimper but the >> results are poor with a sharp “wing” on either side of the crimp. >> >> What does the hive mind suggest for a ferrule and crimper for these >> larger wire sizes? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.png Type: image/png Size: 97595 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Wed Aug 27 13:33:08 2025 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 12:33:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large ferrules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pin adapters. Crimp on your fine strand and gives you a nice solid. Here is an example: https://www.ilsco.com/Ilsco/ccrz__ProductDetails?sku=F2C-1%2F0-1%2F0-ILSM-ILS&cclcl=en_US Otherwise you need to get proper ferrule crimpers to do the big size ferrules. Something like this: https://www.ferrulesdirect.com/collections/hand-crimping-tools/products/vag240 (interestingly, the above company does have cheap pin adapters as well. Perfect for going with cheap inverters?) FYI -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 9:41 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > More inverters these days present lugs for battery connections instead of > studs. I bought some 2/0 and 4/0 ferrules to accommodate the fine stranded > MTW we use. I have a cheap hex crimper but the results are poor with a > sharp “wing” on either side of the crimp. > > What does the hive mind suggest for a ferrule and crimper for these larger > wire sizes? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Chris at OasisMontana.com Wed Aug 27 13:40:01 2025 From: Chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 11:40:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Installer needed in the boonies/east OR In-Reply-To: References: <2BA03AC8-51E2-4605-B2A8-96AF6C528F7B@gmail.com> <9A50862D-177C-45FC-9FB3-66E09DB314CB@renewablenergy.com> Message-ID: <010701dc1779$9e696060$db3c2120$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: I have a worthy elderly customer near Vale, OR (eastern Oregon desert); is there anyone there that can assist in the installation of his off-grid system? Please feel free to contact me off list. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 27 13:53:39 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 11:53:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 750 kcmil pulling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39A432B9-7F66-4BE8-8C51-A30C76FC9EC3@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 27 13:56:12 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 11:56:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large ferrules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE3D846-EF15-4D7C-849D-6C55422241FB@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com Wed Aug 27 14:53:12 2025 From: travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com (Travis Knipple) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 14:53:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String Inverter compatible with Positive-Grounded PV Array Message-ID: Hi all, I'm trying to retrofit an old SMA/Sunpower system with a + grounded Array. What options are out there for a new string inverter to put in these systems (if any)? Thanks, -- Travis Knipple Senior Engineer Hudson Solar Solutions LLC Rhinebeck, NY 12572 518-539-8040 x408 | travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com PVIP# PV-111821-013612 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Aug 27 14:59:13 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 13:59:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large ferrules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7D341C45-A28F-4C96-AA51-C1A9640C09CA@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cheezemanrich at gmail.com Wed Aug 27 15:42:27 2025 From: cheezemanrich at gmail.com (Richard Scott) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 12:42:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String Inverter compatible with Positive-Grounded PV Array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You Love Solar sells SMA SB6000U capable of positive ground systems. https://youlovesolar.com/collections/inverters/products/sunny-boy-6000us-1 https://youlovesolar.com/pages/switching-from-negative-to-positing-grounding-for-older-sunpower-systems You might try calling to see if they still do repairs. Richard On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 11:54 AM Travis Knipple via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > I'm trying to retrofit an old SMA/Sunpower system with a + grounded Array. > What options are out there for a new string inverter to put in these > systems (if any)? > Thanks, > > -- > Travis Knipple > Senior Engineer > Hudson Solar Solutions LLC > Rhinebeck, NY 12572 > 518-539-8040 x408 | travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com > > PVIP# PV-111821-013612 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Aug 27 20:05:27 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 20:05:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large ferrules In-Reply-To: <7D341C45-A28F-4C96-AA51-C1A9640C09CA@mavericksolar.com> References: <7D341C45-A28F-4C96-AA51-C1A9640C09CA@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: It was my understanding that these compression lugs for DC connections are typically rated for fine stranded conductors. But I’m partial to ring terminals, so the pin adapter does sound like a good option as well. On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 3:00 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > For the six AWG and smaller I have a nice crimper that does a great job > making hex shaped crimps. > > For the 2/0 and 4/0 cables, I just slide the ferrule onto the conductors, > then insert the ferrule + conductors into the lug. And then tighten the set > screw to the specified torque. As a test, I have removed the cable to see > how the ferrule survived the set screw. The ferrule was not ripped and kept > the wires inside. The wires fit the backside of the lug and were > semicircular as proper and the set screw made a perfect spot for it to land > onto the ferrule. I usually double check the torque at the end of doing the > other wires to make sure the battery cables are secure. > > This method may not be scientific. I do have a battery cable crimper for > regular lugs, but it make a diamond shaped crimp that doesn’t seem as nice > as just using the set screw in the terminal. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Aug 27, 2025, at 9:41 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > More inverters these days present lugs for battery connections instead of > studs. I bought some 2/0 and 4/0 ferrules to accommodate the fine stranded > MTW we use. I have a cheap hex crimper but the results are poor with a > sharp “wing” on either side of the crimp. > > What does the hive mind suggest for a ferrule and crimper for these larger > wire sizes? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Aug 27 13:26:42 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 12:26:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large ferrules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <984D36DE-9E3F-49AF-9C8C-ADCADBFD69F5@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Aug 28 10:53:47 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2025 10:53:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 battery OK with Magnum electronics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50da9e08a391342bc88903d74c690baa@redwoodalliance.org> Kevin, I am considering an EG4 6000XP for a project, but have heard that it is really loud. What is your experience with the sound levels? Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-08-26 21:39, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > Mick, > > It can be made to work, yes, I have done a few, 48V, but same idea. But > it's sub optimal mixing brands. > > Given how low cost the EG4 inverters are, like the 6000XP I'm telling > my clients upgrade it all and be done with it, and go up to 48V. I'm > presently doing that with a DR1512 dual power board I put in 18 years > ago. The L16's were a couple years overdue for replacement, and for > extra low cost, put an EG4 6000XP in and be done with it. Tie in the > remote monitoring and then can have a really good view on the entire > system and the individual batteries. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2025 11:12 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Mick Abraham > Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 battery OK with Magnum electronics? > > Hi, Mechanix~ A longtime client has a Magnasine 4024 inverter/charger, > PT-100 charge controller, BMK battery monitoring kit & the ARC Advanced > Remote with 4.0 firmware. > > He'd like to upgrade from L-16 floodies to five of the EG4 LL24V 200 AH > batteries in a cabinet. > > I've reviewed the EG4 info for care & feeding, alongside various menus > in the Advanced Remote manual, and it looks like the Magnum setting > ranges are compatible. Before shipping out the money, > > I'd like to know any feedback from the Wrenches about how things are > working when these product families are combined. > > At times I've noticed strange behavior with the Magnasine inverters > during charge cycles. As I recall, the units jump from Bulk to Float > soon after generator driven charging gets under way. For clients with > old or compromised lead acid floodies, I've occasionally set Float and > Bulk to the same target voltage. These are off grid setups where the > generator noise keeps the client aware that charge is underway. Most of > these clients don't have the generator automated, which is also true > for my 2025 EG4 customer. > > I won't try that "Float @ Bulk voltage" trick with lithium, of course. > Any & all war stories would be welcomed. As always, "The Wrench List is > the Bomb!" > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com [1] > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.abrahamsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 28 11:20:18 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2025 09:20:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 battery OK with Magnum electronics? In-Reply-To: <50da9e08a391342bc88903d74c690baa@redwoodalliance.org> References: <50da9e08a391342bc88903d74c690baa@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <36366B01-D1A3-4853-AEF4-4195FBD9933F@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 28 19:54:20 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2025 19:54:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues Message-ID: We have five PF16 installed outdoors at a home. It has been only 2 weeks and I'm seeing rust forming around some cover screws (both the top cover and front cover). The brackets are also showing some rust spots, and under the rims of the top cover I'm seeing rust spots that look like they are from small metal shavings. We also found minor rust around a prepunched knockout immediately after removing the protective plastic cap. This all happened after they had been mounted outdoors for two weeks, but no conduit had been installed yet and the top covers hadn't even been opened once. Is anyone else seeing these issues? I'm pretty concerned that my customer won't accept this early defect, and I have lots of outdoor installations planned for other customers. P.S. This is not a coastal location (although all of Florida is kind of coastal). Regardless, it's IP65 and should withstand a typical outdoor installation. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Thu Aug 28 20:50:04 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2025 20:50:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason Rust will have no effect on the IP65 rating of the battery. The batteries are intended for outdoor protected install only. Because the batteries are heavy, installers can easily nick or damage the powdercoat on the battery leading to rust. Because the battery is white it shows the rust way easier than other outdoor rated batteries. The case of the battery must be made from* steel *because the UL rating certifies if the battery was to have a meltdown, no flame can escape from the battery The manual needs to better specify the protected install. Are the batteries installed outside unprotected? On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 7:54 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We have five PF16 installed outdoors at a home. It has been only 2 weeks > and I'm seeing rust forming around some cover screws (both the top cover > and front cover). The brackets are also showing some rust spots, and under > the rims of the top cover I'm seeing rust spots that look like they are > from small metal shavings. We also found minor rust around a prepunched > knockout immediately after removing the protective plastic cap. > > This all happened after they had been mounted outdoors for two weeks, but > no conduit had been installed yet and the top covers hadn't even been > opened once. > > Is anyone else seeing these issues? I'm pretty concerned that my customer > won't accept this early defect, and I have lots of outdoor installations > planned for other customers. > > P.S. This is not a coastal location (although all of Florida is kind of > coastal). Regardless, it's IP65 and should withstand a typical outdoor > installation. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 28 21:15:16 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:15:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know what you mean by unprotected. That is exactly what an IP65 rating suggests - outdoors, subject to the elements. Nowhere does it say in the product literature thay it must be "protected," whatever that means. Protected against the environment that it is rated to be in? Seriously? If it can get wet, it shouldn't rust around the undisturbed factory installed screws in a couple of weeks. If this is how the product is going to be, it is totally unsuited for OUTDOOR installations, which is exactly where it says it can be installed on the spec sheet. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Aug 28, 2025, 8:50 PM William Bryce wrote: > Hi Jason > > Rust will have no effect on the IP65 rating of the battery. > The batteries are intended for outdoor protected install only. > Because the batteries are heavy, installers can easily nick or damage the > powdercoat on the battery leading to rust. Because the battery is white it > shows the rust way easier than other outdoor rated batteries. > > The case of the battery must be made from* steel *because the UL rating > certifies if the battery was to have a meltdown, no flame can escape from > the battery > > The manual needs to better specify the protected install. > > Are the batteries installed outside unprotected? > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 7:54 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We have five PF16 installed outdoors at a home. It has been only 2 weeks >> and I'm seeing rust forming around some cover screws (both the top cover >> and front cover). The brackets are also showing some rust spots, and under >> the rims of the top cover I'm seeing rust spots that look like they are >> from small metal shavings. We also found minor rust around a prepunched >> knockout immediately after removing the protective plastic cap. >> >> This all happened after they had been mounted outdoors for two weeks, but >> no conduit had been installed yet and the top covers hadn't even been >> opened once. >> >> Is anyone else seeing these issues? I'm pretty concerned that my customer >> won't accept this early defect, and I have lots of outdoor installations >> planned for other customers. >> >> P.S. This is not a coastal location (although all of Florida is kind of >> coastal). Regardless, it's IP65 and should withstand a typical outdoor >> installation. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Thu Aug 28 21:40:28 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2025 21:40:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’ve been reflecting recently about IP ratings and my new opinion is that IP55 and IP65 ingress ratings mean “somewhat outside”. Many manufacturers with these mentioned ratings (which are identical for moisture ingress and vary only slightly for dust ingress) will explicitly say that their product cannot be exposed to direct rainfall or moisture…which doesn’t sound very outdoor rated to me. Take this IP65 rated battery manufacturer’s installation recommendations for example: “The Battery Pack must be kept away from direct sunlight and rain or other sources of moisture. This applies to both indoor and outdoor installations. Even if installed indoors such as basement or garage, direct sunlight and rain or other sources of moisture may still penetrate, so it is essential to protect the Battery Pack from direct sunlight and rain or other sources of moisture”. I get the sunlight part, but protecting an ESS from moisture when installed outdoors seems like a tall order. On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 9:16 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I don't know what you mean by unprotected. That is exactly what an IP65 > rating suggests - outdoors, subject to the elements. Nowhere does it say in > the product literature thay it must be "protected," whatever that means. > Protected against the environment that it is rated to be in? Seriously? > > If it can get wet, it shouldn't rust around the undisturbed factory > installed screws in a couple of weeks. If this is how the product is going > to be, it is totally unsuited for OUTDOOR installations, which is exactly > where it says it can be installed on the spec sheet. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2025, 8:50 PM William Bryce > wrote: > >> Hi Jason >> >> Rust will have no effect on the IP65 rating of the battery. >> The batteries are intended for outdoor protected install only. >> Because the batteries are heavy, installers can easily nick or damage the >> powdercoat on the battery leading to rust. Because the battery is white it >> shows the rust way easier than other outdoor rated batteries. >> >> The case of the battery must be made from* steel *because the UL rating >> certifies if the battery was to have a meltdown, no flame can escape from >> the battery >> >> The manual needs to better specify the protected install. >> >> Are the batteries installed outside unprotected? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 7:54 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> We have five PF16 installed outdoors at a home. It has been only 2 weeks >>> and I'm seeing rust forming around some cover screws (both the top cover >>> and front cover). The brackets are also showing some rust spots, and under >>> the rims of the top cover I'm seeing rust spots that look like they are >>> from small metal shavings. We also found minor rust around a prepunched >>> knockout immediately after removing the protective plastic cap. >>> >>> This all happened after they had been mounted outdoors for two weeks, >>> but no conduit had been installed yet and the top covers hadn't even been >>> opened once. >>> >>> Is anyone else seeing these issues? I'm pretty concerned that my >>> customer won't accept this early defect, and I have lots of outdoor >>> installations planned for other customers. >>> >>> P.S. This is not a coastal location (although all of Florida is kind of >>> coastal). Regardless, it's IP65 and should withstand a typical outdoor >>> installation. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_7170.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 182169 bytes Desc: not available URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Thu Aug 28 22:49:42 2025 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 02:49:42 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: IP ratings are cumulative so each rating level includes all previous level of performance. IP62 is good enough for “rain”. IP65 turns that into howling raging jets of water. If the manufactures says the product is IP65 rated and gives no other specific installation instruction in the product manual, then there should be no need for additional “protection” from water. I saw this product advertised as “outdoor, wall mounted” on one web site, which is consistent with an IP65 rating. So where does that leave you with this manufacture? Well you don’t have a leg to stand on if you are in the warranty period and no water enters the enclosure after being subjected to jets of water. The thing may look like a rusted piece of trash but that is not what an IP65 rating promises. BTW Bentek includes a clause that any enclosure must receive touch up paint to prevent rust in order for them to honor the warrenty. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2025 6:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Chris Sparadeo Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues I’ve been reflecting recently about IP ratings and my new opinion is that IP55 and IP65 ingress ratings mean “somewhat outside”. Many manufacturers with these mentioned ratings (which are identical for moisture ingress and vary only slightly for dust ingress) will explicitly say that their product cannot be exposed to direct rainfall or moisture…which doesn’t sound very outdoor rated to me. Take this IP65 rated battery manufacturer’s installation recommendations for example: “The Battery Pack must be kept away from direct sunlight and rain or other sources of moisture. This applies to both indoor and outdoor installations. Even if installed indoors such as basement or garage, direct sunlight and rain or other sources of moisture may still penetrate, so it is essential to protect the Battery Pack from direct sunlight and rain or other sources of moisture”. I get the sunlight part, but protecting an ESS from moisture when installed outdoors seems like a tall order. [cid:image001.jpg at 01DC1854.59D6A170] On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 9:16 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: I don't know what you mean by unprotected. That is exactly what an IP65 rating suggests - outdoors, subject to the elements. Nowhere does it say in the product literature thay it must be "protected," whatever that means. Protected against the environment that it is rated to be in? Seriously? If it can get wet, it shouldn't rust around the undisturbed factory installed screws in a couple of weeks. If this is how the product is going to be, it is totally unsuited for OUTDOOR installations, which is exactly where it says it can be installed on the spec sheet. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Aug 28, 2025, 8:50 PM William Bryce > wrote: Hi Jason Rust will have no effect on the IP65 rating of the battery. The batteries are intended for outdoor protected install only. Because the batteries are heavy, installers can easily nick or damage the powdercoat on the battery leading to rust. Because the battery is white it shows the rust way easier than other outdoor rated batteries. The case of the battery must be made from steel because the UL rating certifies if the battery was to have a meltdown, no flame can escape from the battery The manual needs to better specify the protected install. Are the batteries installed outside unprotected? On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 7:54 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: We have five PF16 installed outdoors at a home. It has been only 2 weeks and I'm seeing rust forming around some cover screws (both the top cover and front cover). The brackets are also showing some rust spots, and under the rims of the top cover I'm seeing rust spots that look like they are from small metal shavings. We also found minor rust around a prepunched knockout immediately after removing the protective plastic cap. This all happened after they had been mounted outdoors for two weeks, but no conduit had been installed yet and the top covers hadn't even been opened once. Is anyone else seeing these issues? I'm pretty concerned that my customer won't accept this early defect, and I have lots of outdoor installations planned for other customers. P.S. This is not a coastal location (although all of Florida is kind of coastal). Regardless, it's IP65 and should withstand a typical outdoor installation. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 182169 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Aug 29 05:37:39 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 05:37:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree with the fact that an IP rating doesn't have anything to do with cosmetic performance. I also agree with the "trash" part. Any reasonable person would expect a product advertised as "Environment: Outdoor," with no other guidance, to not rust in a matter of weeks, absent physical damage. Even if I were to "protect" these batteries somehow, whatever that means, even occasional mists of water are likely to continue to cause rust. I now have serious concerns about this product. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Aug 28, 2025, 10:52 PM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > IP ratings are cumulative so each rating level includes all previous level > of performance. IP62 is good enough for “rain”. IP65 turns that into > howling raging jets of water. > > > > If the manufactures says the product is IP65 rated and gives no other > specific installation instruction in the product manual, then there should > be no need for additional “protection” from water. I saw this product > advertised as “outdoor, wall mounted” on one web site, which is consistent > with an IP65 rating. > > > > So where does that leave you with this manufacture? > > > > Well you don’t have a leg to stand on if you are in the warranty period > and no water enters the enclosure after being subjected to jets of water. > > > > The thing may look like a rusted piece of trash but that is not what an > IP65 rating promises. > > > > BTW > > > > Bentek includes a clause that any enclosure must receive touch up paint to > prevent rust in order for them to honor the warrenty. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, August 28, 2025 6:40 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Chris Sparadeo > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues > > > > I’ve been reflecting recently about IP ratings and my new opinion is that > IP55 and IP65 ingress ratings mean “somewhat outside”. Many manufacturers > with these mentioned ratings (which are identical for moisture ingress and > vary only slightly for dust ingress) will explicitly say that their product > cannot be exposed to direct rainfall or moisture…which doesn’t sound very > outdoor rated to me. Take this IP65 rated battery manufacturer’s > installation recommendations for example: > > “The Battery Pack must be kept away from direct sunlight and rain or other > sources of moisture. > > This applies to both indoor and outdoor installations. Even if installed > indoors such as basement or garage, direct sunlight and rain or other > sources of moisture may still penetrate, so it is essential to protect the > Battery Pack from direct sunlight and rain or other sources of moisture”. > > > > I get the sunlight part, but protecting an ESS from moisture when > installed outdoors seems like a tall order. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 9:16 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I don't know what you mean by unprotected. That is exactly what an IP65 > rating suggests - outdoors, subject to the elements. Nowhere does it say in > the product literature thay it must be "protected," whatever that means. > Protected against the environment that it is rated to be in? Seriously? > > > > If it can get wet, it shouldn't rust around the undisturbed factory > installed screws in a couple of weeks. If this is how the product is going > to be, it is totally unsuited for OUTDOOR installations, which is exactly > where it says it can be installed on the spec sheet. > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2025, 8:50 PM William Bryce > wrote: > > Hi Jason > > > > Rust will have no effect on the IP65 rating of the battery. > > The batteries are intended for outdoor protected install only. > Because the batteries are heavy, installers can easily nick or damage the > powdercoat on the battery leading to rust. Because the battery is white it > shows the rust way easier than other outdoor rated batteries. > > > > The case of the battery must be made from* steel *because the UL rating > certifies if the battery was to have a meltdown, no flame can escape from > the battery > > > > The manual needs to better specify the protected install. > > > > Are the batteries installed outside unprotected? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 7:54 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > We have five PF16 installed outdoors at a home. It has been only 2 weeks > and I'm seeing rust forming around some cover screws (both the top cover > and front cover). The brackets are also showing some rust spots, and under > the rims of the top cover I'm seeing rust spots that look like they are > from small metal shavings. We also found minor rust around a prepunched > knockout immediately after removing the protective plastic cap. > > > > This all happened after they had been mounted outdoors for two weeks, but > no conduit had been installed yet and the top covers hadn't even been > opened once. > > > > Is anyone else seeing these issues? I'm pretty concerned that my customer > won't accept this early defect, and I have lots of outdoor installations > planned for other customers. > > > > P.S. This is not a coastal location (although all of Florida is kind of > coastal). Regardless, it's IP65 and should withstand a typical outdoor > installation. > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 182169 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Fri Aug 29 08:20:46 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:20:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As installers, our decisions directly impact the long-term success of a project and the satisfaction of the customer. The PF16 case is made from steel, and like all non-stainless steel enclosures, if the powder coat is scratched the underlying metal can rust. The white finish can make any rust more visible. All manufacturers use steel for outdoor battery cases to meet UL testing requirements. When exposed to direct sunlight, the powder coat will gradually degrade—just like standard exterior paint—so some level of maintenance should always be expected. This applies to all outdoor-rated batteries, not just the MNP PF16. I installed two PF16 units outdoors in Florida, about 20 miles from the coast. They were mounted on the side of a barn with a low overhanging roof for protection from direct rain. After more than two years, they still look good with no signs of rust. By contrast, if the same batteries were placed outdoors with no overhead protection, I would expect to see some rust. That is simply the reality with steel construction, whether we’re talking about outdoor-rated batteries, lawn equipment, tractor / implements, or trailers. The key is proper installation: ensuring the top is secured and the seal is intact, using seal-tight conduit entries, and following the IP65 rating guidelines. Cosmetic choices—such as placement and exposure—are typically decided between the installer and the customer, and this is where experience and common sense come into play. Based on their certification, I am confident Midnite Power will stand behind and warranty any unit that fails from water ingress when installed correctly. But it’s also fair to say that if the MNP battery design does not meet your needs, then perhaps it isn’t the right choice for your project. A stainless steel case would avoid rust entirely, but the cost would be so high that few customers would buy them. At the price point these batteries are offered, you will be hard pressed to find an alternative that would perform better under the same conditions. Have you reached out to Midnite Power directly to discuss your concerns? I'm sure using the professional term "trash" will help the support call go well. On Fri, Aug 29, 2025 at 5:38 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I agree with the fact that an IP rating doesn't have anything to do with > cosmetic performance. > > I also agree with the "trash" part. > > Any reasonable person would expect a product advertised as "Environment: > Outdoor," with no other guidance, to not rust in a matter of weeks, absent > physical damage. > > Even if I were to "protect" these batteries somehow, whatever that means, > even occasional mists of water are likely to continue to cause rust. I now > have serious concerns about this product. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2025, 10:52 PM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> IP ratings are cumulative so each rating level includes all previous >> level of performance. IP62 is good enough for “rain”. IP65 turns that into >> howling raging jets of water. >> >> >> >> If the manufactures says the product is IP65 rated and gives no other >> specific installation instruction in the product manual, then there should >> be no need for additional “protection” from water. I saw this product >> advertised as “outdoor, wall mounted” on one web site, which is consistent >> with an IP65 rating. >> >> >> >> So where does that leave you with this manufacture? >> >> >> >> Well you don’t have a leg to stand on if you are in the warranty period >> and no water enters the enclosure after being subjected to jets of water. >> >> >> >> The thing may look like a rusted piece of trash but that is not what an >> IP65 rating promises. >> >> >> >> BTW >> >> >> >> Bentek includes a clause that any enclosure must receive touch up paint >> to prevent rust in order for them to honor the warrenty. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Thursday, August 28, 2025 6:40 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Chris Sparadeo >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues >> >> >> >> I’ve been reflecting recently about IP ratings and my new opinion is that >> IP55 and IP65 ingress ratings mean “somewhat outside”. Many manufacturers >> with these mentioned ratings (which are identical for moisture ingress and >> vary only slightly for dust ingress) will explicitly say that their product >> cannot be exposed to direct rainfall or moisture…which doesn’t sound very >> outdoor rated to me. Take this IP65 rated battery manufacturer’s >> installation recommendations for example: >> >> “The Battery Pack must be kept away from direct sunlight and rain or >> other sources of moisture. >> >> This applies to both indoor and outdoor installations. Even if installed >> indoors such as basement or garage, direct sunlight and rain or other >> sources of moisture may still penetrate, so it is essential to protect the >> Battery Pack from direct sunlight and rain or other sources of moisture”. >> >> >> >> I get the sunlight part, but protecting an ESS from moisture when >> installed outdoors seems like a tall order. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 9:16 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> I don't know what you mean by unprotected. That is exactly what an IP65 >> rating suggests - outdoors, subject to the elements. Nowhere does it say in >> the product literature thay it must be "protected," whatever that means. >> Protected against the environment that it is rated to be in? Seriously? >> >> >> >> If it can get wet, it shouldn't rust around the undisturbed factory >> installed screws in a couple of weeks. If this is how the product is going >> to be, it is totally unsuited for OUTDOOR installations, which is exactly >> where it says it can be installed on the spec sheet. >> >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 28, 2025, 8:50 PM William Bryce < >> wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: >> >> Hi Jason >> >> >> >> Rust will have no effect on the IP65 rating of the battery. >> >> The batteries are intended for outdoor protected install only. >> Because the batteries are heavy, installers can easily nick or damage the >> powdercoat on the battery leading to rust. Because the battery is white it >> shows the rust way easier than other outdoor rated batteries. >> >> >> >> The case of the battery must be made from* steel *because the UL rating >> certifies if the battery was to have a meltdown, no flame can escape from >> the battery >> >> >> >> The manual needs to better specify the protected install. >> >> >> >> Are the batteries installed outside unprotected? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 7:54 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> We have five PF16 installed outdoors at a home. It has been only 2 weeks >> and I'm seeing rust forming around some cover screws (both the top cover >> and front cover). The brackets are also showing some rust spots, and under >> the rims of the top cover I'm seeing rust spots that look like they are >> from small metal shavings. We also found minor rust around a prepunched >> knockout immediately after removing the protective plastic cap. >> >> >> >> This all happened after they had been mounted outdoors for two weeks, but >> no conduit had been installed yet and the top covers hadn't even been >> opened once. >> >> >> >> Is anyone else seeing these issues? I'm pretty concerned that my customer >> won't accept this early defect, and I have lots of outdoor installations >> planned for other customers. >> >> >> >> P.S. This is not a coastal location (although all of Florida is kind of >> coastal). Regardless, it's IP65 and should withstand a typical outdoor >> installation. >> >> >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 182169 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Aug 29 08:40:28 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 12:40:28 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: 20250828_082834.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 98603 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 29 09:33:33 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 07:33:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Fri Aug 29 10:46:26 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 10:46:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason I never implied anything about your install—I haven’t seen it. I was simply sharing my direct experience with the PF16 battery installed outdoors. My reply was meant as a general comment: that all considerations need to be taken into account when placing outdoor-rated batteries. If this was my install, I’d ask myself: *What can I do to make the system work properly, keep the customer happy, and reduce any chance of callbacks?* Personally, I wouldn’t recommend installing this, or any battery outside without some overhead protection. That’s just how I approach installs—always working to mitigate risks and future issues. My experience in both Florida and Montana over the past 30 years has reinforced that approach. That was my feedback in my last post, Not to say your install was bad or wrong. It's your install, and I have not seen it nor is it my business. If you took it that way it was not my intent. That said, I stand by the fact that there are many successful installs (including several of my own) of this battery outdoors—with no direct rain exposure—where this has not been an issue. In cases like this, a little WD-40 and a rag are usually enough to address the cosmetic concern. The bigger factor, in my opinion, is simply that the enclosures are white, which makes any surface rust far more visible than it would be on darker cases. Looking at the specific photos you shared: - The rear rust spot is from the mount lock-down screw hole. You cannot powder coat threads. A stainless screw in that location would prevent rust. - On the cover, the powder coat was removed by the countersunk screw during lid reassembly. Tightening the screw exposed bare steel, which will rust. - The amount of sand visible in the photos shows how aggressive the environmental conditions are at this install site. All of these surface rust issues can be mitigated. Using stainless hardware with a touch of anti-seize would prevent recurrence. Is this extra work? Yes—but since batteries installed under cover typically don’t see these issues, it may be a reasonable solution. From a manufacturing standpoint, I’m not sure how they could solve this at a reasonable cost without passing it along to the customer. Manufacturers also face limitations in how they design, certify, and produce equipment—it’s not as simple as it may look from the end-user perspective. In regards to the "trash" remark. The PF16 carries a 15-year warranty, which speaks to its durability and quality. It also comes with U.S.-based support that consistently goes above and beyond, and in my opinion, is priced fairly for what it delivers.That said, your feedback is valuable as are the photos. If you have ideas on how these points could be addressed at scale and at a fair price, I’m sure MNP would be receptive to constructive suggestions. How would you fix it? I’m not a Midnite Power or Midnite Solar employee, so if this remains a concern for you, I’d encourage you to reach out to them directly. On Fri, Aug 29, 2025 at 8:40 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > William, > > The attached images are indefensible. This is 2 weeks after installation > with completely undisturbed screws from the factory. This is substandard > quality by any reasonable interpretation. > > I was referring to Mark's "rusted piece of trash" comment, agreeing that > IP65 does not guarantee cosmetic performance. That doesn't mean it is > acceptable to sell an outdoor-rated product that becomes a rust bucket in > short order. Only time will tell if these issues become serious. The > purpose of my original post was to find out if anyone else is seeing > similar issues or if this might just be a bad batch. > > I don't appreciate any implication that my installation, experience, or > common sense are lacking. The product is marketed for an outdoor > environment. Similar products that are rated and marketed in the same > manner have not exhibited these issues virtually out of the box in my > experience, even those on properties directly on the coast. The early signs > of rust on these units are a justifiable concern. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Fri, Aug 29, 2025 at 8:21 AM William Bryce < > wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: > >> As installers, our decisions directly impact the long-term success of a >> project and the satisfaction of the customer. The PF16 case is made from >> steel, and like all non-stainless steel enclosures, if the powder coat is >> scratched the underlying metal can rust. The white finish can make any rust >> more visible. >> >> All manufacturers use steel for outdoor battery cases to meet UL testing >> requirements. When exposed to direct sunlight, the powder coat will >> gradually degrade—just like standard exterior paint—so some level of >> maintenance should always be expected. This applies to all outdoor-rated >> batteries, not just the MNP PF16. >> >> I installed two PF16 units outdoors in Florida, about 20 miles from the >> coast. They were mounted on the side of a barn with a low overhanging roof >> for protection from direct rain. After more than two years, they still look >> good with no signs of rust. By contrast, if the same batteries were placed >> outdoors with no overhead protection, I would expect to see some rust. That >> is simply the reality with steel construction, whether we’re talking about >> outdoor-rated batteries, lawn equipment, tractor / implements, or trailers. >> >> The key is proper installation: ensuring the top is secured and the seal >> is intact, using seal-tight conduit entries, and following the IP65 rating >> guidelines. Cosmetic choices—such as placement and exposure—are typically >> decided between the installer and the customer, and this is where >> experience and common sense come into play. >> >> Based on their certification, I am confident Midnite Power will stand >> behind and warranty any unit that fails from water ingress when installed >> correctly. But it’s also fair to say that if the MNP battery design does >> not meet your needs, then perhaps it isn’t the right choice for your >> project. >> >> A stainless steel case would avoid rust entirely, but the cost would be >> so high that few customers would buy them. At the price point these >> batteries are offered, you will be hard pressed to find an alternative that >> would perform better under the same conditions. >> >> Have you reached out to Midnite Power directly to discuss your concerns? >> I'm sure using the professional term "trash" will help the support call go >> well. >> >> On Fri, Aug 29, 2025 at 5:38 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I agree with the fact that an IP rating doesn't have anything to do with >>> cosmetic performance. >>> >>> I also agree with the "trash" part. >>> >>> Any reasonable person would expect a product advertised as "Environment: >>> Outdoor," with no other guidance, to not rust in a matter of weeks, absent >>> physical damage. >>> >>> Even if I were to "protect" these batteries somehow, whatever that >>> means, even occasional mists of water are likely to continue to cause rust. >>> I now have serious concerns about this product. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2025, 10:52 PM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> IP ratings are cumulative so each rating level includes all previous >>>> level of performance. IP62 is good enough for “rain”. IP65 turns that into >>>> howling raging jets of water. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If the manufactures says the product is IP65 rated and gives no other >>>> specific installation instruction in the product manual, then there should >>>> be no need for additional “protection” from water. I saw this product >>>> advertised as “outdoor, wall mounted” on one web site, which is consistent >>>> with an IP65 rating. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So where does that leave you with this manufacture? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Well you don’t have a leg to stand on if you are in the warranty period >>>> and no water enters the enclosure after being subjected to jets of water. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The thing may look like a rusted piece of trash but that is not what an >>>> IP65 rating promises. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> BTW >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Bentek includes a clause that any enclosure must receive touch up paint >>>> to prevent rust in order for them to honor the warrenty. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>> Behalf Of *Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 28, 2025 6:40 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* Chris Sparadeo >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I’ve been reflecting recently about IP ratings and my new opinion is >>>> that IP55 and IP65 ingress ratings mean “somewhat outside”. Many >>>> manufacturers with these mentioned ratings (which are identical for >>>> moisture ingress and vary only slightly for dust ingress) will explicitly >>>> say that their product cannot be exposed to direct rainfall or >>>> moisture…which doesn’t sound very outdoor rated to me. Take this IP65 rated >>>> battery manufacturer’s installation recommendations for example: >>>> >>>> “The Battery Pack must be kept away from direct sunlight and rain or >>>> other sources of moisture. >>>> >>>> This applies to both indoor and outdoor installations. Even if >>>> installed indoors such as basement or garage, direct sunlight and rain or >>>> other sources of moisture may still penetrate, so it is essential to >>>> protect the Battery Pack from direct sunlight and rain or other sources of >>>> moisture”. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I get the sunlight part, but protecting an ESS from moisture when >>>> installed outdoors seems like a tall order. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 9:16 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> I don't know what you mean by unprotected. That is exactly what an IP65 >>>> rating suggests - outdoors, subject to the elements. Nowhere does it say in >>>> the product literature thay it must be "protected," whatever that means. >>>> Protected against the environment that it is rated to be in? Seriously? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If it can get wet, it shouldn't rust around the undisturbed factory >>>> installed screws in a couple of weeks. If this is how the product is going >>>> to be, it is totally unsuited for OUTDOOR installations, which is exactly >>>> where it says it can be installed on the spec sheet. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2025, 8:50 PM William Bryce < >>>> wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Rust will have no effect on the IP65 rating of the battery. >>>> >>>> The batteries are intended for outdoor protected install only. >>>> Because the batteries are heavy, installers can easily nick or damage the >>>> powdercoat on the battery leading to rust. Because the battery is white it >>>> shows the rust way easier than other outdoor rated batteries. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The case of the battery must be made from* steel *because the UL >>>> rating certifies if the battery was to have a meltdown, no flame can >>>> escape from the battery >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The manual needs to better specify the protected install. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Are the batteries installed outside unprotected? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 7:54 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> We have five PF16 installed outdoors at a home. It has been only 2 >>>> weeks and I'm seeing rust forming around some cover screws (both the top >>>> cover and front cover). The brackets are also showing some rust spots, and >>>> under the rims of the top cover I'm seeing rust spots that look like they >>>> are from small metal shavings. We also found minor rust around a prepunched >>>> knockout immediately after removing the protective plastic cap. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This all happened after they had been mounted outdoors for two weeks, >>>> but no conduit had been installed yet and the top covers hadn't even been >>>> opened once. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is anyone else seeing these issues? I'm pretty concerned that my >>>> customer won't accept this early defect, and I have lots of outdoor >>>> installations planned for other customers. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> P.S. This is not a coastal location (although all of Florida is kind of >>>> coastal). Regardless, it's IP65 and should withstand a typical outdoor >>>> installation. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-5.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 117083 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 11:42:55 2025 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 08:42:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String anomaly References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 150148 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 97080 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 29 11:46:50 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 09:46:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String anomaly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Aug 29 14:34:46 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 11:34:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Call Midnite??? No rust out here in Nevada😉 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-08-28 4:54 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > We have five PF16 installed outdoors at a home. It has been only 2 > weeks and I'm seeing rust forming around some cover screws (both the > top cover and front cover). The brackets are also showing some rust > spots, and under the rims of the top cover I'm seeing rust spots that > look like they are from small metal shavings. We also found minor rust > around a prepunched knockout immediately after removing the protective > plastic cap. > > This all happened after they had been mounted outdoors for two weeks, > but no conduit had been installed yet and the top covers hadn't even > been opened once. > > Is anyone else seeing these issues? I'm pretty concerned that my > customer won't accept this early defect, and I have lots of outdoor > installations planned for other customers. > > P.S. This is not a coastal location (although all of Florida is kind of > coastal). Regardless, it's IP65 and should withstand a typical outdoor > installation. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Aug 29 16:13:43 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 14:13:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've seen corrosion like that on most NEMA 3 rated stuff, in Puerto Rico, Florida, and Hawaii.  Close to the coast, any regular steel is going to have problems.  Powder coating is better than paint, but its still steel underneath.  Changing the hardware to 416 Stainless might help some, too. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 8/29/2025 12:34 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Call Midnite???  No rust out here in Nevada😉 > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2025-08-28 4:54 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> We have five PF16 installed outdoors at a home. It has been only 2 >> weeks and I'm seeing rust forming around some cover screws (both the >> top cover and front cover). The brackets are also showing some rust >> spots, and under the rims of the top cover I'm seeing rust spots that >> look like they are from small metal shavings. We also found minor >> rust around a prepunched knockout immediately after removing the >> protective plastic cap. >> This all happened after they had been mounted outdoors for two weeks, >> but no conduit had been installed yet and the top covers hadn't even >> been opened once. >> Is anyone else seeing these issues? I'm pretty concerned that my >> customer won't accept this early defect, and I have lots of outdoor >> installations planned for other customers. >> P.S. This is not a coastal location (although all of Florida is kind >> of coastal). Regardless, it's IP65 and should withstand a typical >> outdoor installation. >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Aug 29 19:41:17 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 16:41:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String Inverter compatible with Positive-Grounded PV Array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is some scuttle about just installing regular non-isolated (transformerless) inverters with old SunPower positive grounded mods and setting the expectation with clients that there may be some losses due to PID. But, overall having a new inverter that is likely to be more reliable with monitoring might be worth it. I had heard that PID losses can be as much as 50% but I think that might be some of the very oldest SunPower mods dating back to the early 2000s. By the time 2012 rolled around, maybe the PID issue was almost gone anyway, just speculation. I can't say we've done this yet except for a couple of Enphase projects with old SunPower mods. So far so good. Best, August On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 12:43 PM Richard Scott via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > You Love Solar sells SMA SB6000U capable of positive ground systems. > https://youlovesolar.com/collections/inverters/products/sunny-boy-6000us-1 > > https://youlovesolar.com/pages/switching-from-negative-to-positing-grounding-for-older-sunpower-systems > You might try calling to see if they still do repairs. > > Richard > > On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 11:54 AM Travis Knipple via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I'm trying to retrofit an old SMA/Sunpower system with a + grounded Array. >> What options are out there for a new string inverter to put in these >> systems (if any)? >> Thanks, >> >> -- >> Travis Knipple >> Senior Engineer >> Hudson Solar Solutions LLC >> Rhinebeck, NY 12572 >> 518-539-8040 x408 | travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com >> >> PVIP# PV-111821-013612 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 29 19:45:06 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 17:45:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] String Inverter compatible with Positive-Grounded PV Array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EF6149D-1F04-4679-B58A-6277958FB620@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Sat Aug 30 13:06:00 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2025 10:06:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I noticed it on just the lid screws on one of my outdoor installs back in March (northern California). It initially got my attention but seemed very isolated and my concerns quickly went away as I recalled that in the last 22 years Midnite has never let me down. If something comes of it they'll stand behind it just like every other time. A 16 kwh battery with all these attributes is a game changer, no problem bringing up the concern with my clients and letting them know that the manufacturer and I will stand behind it should it go beyond a minor visual blemish. Barely 1/5 the price of my favorite Blue Ion, great days for affordable quality solutions to store sunshine! Nick On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 4:54 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We have five PF16 installed outdoors at a home. It has been only 2 weeks > and I'm seeing rust forming around some cover screws (both the top cover > and front cover). The brackets are also showing some rust spots, and under > the rims of the top cover I'm seeing rust spots that look like they are > from small metal shavings. We also found minor rust around a prepunched > knockout immediately after removing the protective plastic cap. > > This all happened after they had been mounted outdoors for two weeks, but > no conduit had been installed yet and the top covers hadn't even been > opened once. > > Is anyone else seeing these issues? I'm pretty concerned that my customer > won't accept this early defect, and I have lots of outdoor installations > planned for other customers. > > P.S. This is not a coastal location (although all of Florida is kind of > coastal). Regardless, it's IP65 and should withstand a typical outdoor > installation. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 30 14:47:47 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2025 14:47:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Powerflo16 Enclosure Rust Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is encouraging, Nick. Are you saying the rust did not spread, or no additional rust locations appeared over time? I just want to give my client an idea of what to expect. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Aug 30, 2025, 1:06 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I noticed it on just the lid screws on one of my outdoor installs back in > March (northern California). It initially got my attention but seemed very > isolated and my concerns quickly went away as I recalled that in the last > 22 years Midnite has never let me down. If something comes of it they'll > stand behind it just like every other time. A 16 kwh battery with all these > attributes is a game changer, no problem bringing up the concern with my > clients and letting them know that the manufacturer and I will stand behind > it should it go beyond a minor visual blemish. Barely 1/5 the price of my > favorite Blue Ion, great days for affordable quality solutions to store > sunshine! > > Nick > > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 4:54 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We have five PF16 installed outdoors at a home. It has been only 2 weeks >> and I'm seeing rust forming around some cover screws (both the top cover >> and front cover). The brackets are also showing some rust spots, and under >> the rims of the top cover I'm seeing rust spots that look like they are >> from small metal shavings. We also found minor rust around a prepunched >> knockout immediately after removing the protective plastic cap. >> >> This all happened after they had been mounted outdoors for two weeks, but >> no conduit had been installed yet and the top covers hadn't even been >> opened once. >> >> Is anyone else seeing these issues? I'm pretty concerned that my customer >> won't accept this early defect, and I have lots of outdoor installations >> planned for other customers. >> >> P.S. This is not a coastal location (although all of Florida is kind of >> coastal). Regardless, it's IP65 and should withstand a typical outdoor >> installation. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Tue Sep 2 10:30:53 2025 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 10:30:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider MPPT Repair Message-ID: Hi All, I'm looking for a repair service that can fix a Schneider MPPT 80/600V. Any recommendations for a shop that can service out of warranty units? Thanks! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC 304-704-5943 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Sep 2 10:40:15 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 10:40:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 v HomeGrid battery systems update? Message-ID: <39347efd-d84c-4769-b41e-283d30a414df@entech-engineering.com> Hi Wrenches, I went through the archives and read the comparison between these two.  The HomeGrid manual was in such a mess (or my pdf reader was defunct), that I started looking at other options. If anyone has a strong opinion of either of these two, or something better, I would appreciate.  We traditionally install small systems, and this would be one (@15kWh).  I would prefer to use a racking system with the BMS as part of the packaging. Solark 12kPV multimode.  Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Sep 2 11:35:29 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 10:35:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 v HomeGrid battery systems update? In-Reply-To: <39347efd-d84c-4769-b41e-283d30a414df@entech-engineering.com> References: <39347efd-d84c-4769-b41e-283d30a414df@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <994FD210-9A20-43CE-B4B4-CDE16E9DE024@mavericksolar.com> The HomeGrid Stack’d is a nice expandable system where each blade adds to the capacity. Each blade has a BMS and they communicate to the master BMS that is stacked at the top of the top battery. I have a few sites that are Stack’d! They are not officially server rack batteries since they stack self contained and don’t use inter battery cables either. Need more capacity, just stack another battery (shutdown, stack, DIP SW, boot up). That is their advantage. The disadvantage is that they are only 15S instead of the more well adopted 16S LiFePO4. That just means they are slightly less flexible if the need arises to parallel another brand… not a show stopper. I’d recommend HomeGrid Stack’d. They also have heated versions, if needed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bms51adiYE&t=1062s Homegrid Stack'd Lithium Battery Deep Dive & Bootup with Maverick MacGyver youtube.com I also have EG4 Server Rack and Wallmount Batteries deployed. No issues there either. The Wallmount batteries are also a breeze to install with the quick connectors. The outdoor version is heated. If you are just needing 15kWh, then one wall mount battery and you are done. Also, as a curve ball, the Discover HELIOS is also 16kWh and self heated and also has an available gutter / wire-way that fits the Sol-Ark 15k and it might also fit the 12k? That would make for a sweet setup. Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Sep 2, 2025, at 9:40 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, I went through the archives and read the comparison between these two. The HomeGrid manual was in such a mess (or my pdf reader was defunct), that I started looking at other options. If anyone has a strong opinion of either of these two, or something better, I would appreciate. We traditionally install small systems, and this would be one (@15kWh). I would prefer to use a racking system with the BMS as part of the packaging. Solark 12kPV multimode. Thank you, Chris > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 99070 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 11:40:38 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 09:40:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 v HomeGrid battery systems update? In-Reply-To: <39347efd-d84c-4769-b41e-283d30a414df@entech-engineering.com> References: <39347efd-d84c-4769-b41e-283d30a414df@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <53F454B1-7164-45C9-8260-4F3FBAAF3675@gmail.com> A few thoughts about the HG They are a 48v not a 51.2v battery so if you ever need to add, you’ll have to find the non standard 48v battery. I’m curious about the lack of a breaker/disconnect. Didn’t we go through this earlier in a thread that there needs to be a lockable DC disconnect between the battery and the inverter? Not for RS but just the need for a disconnect? I do like how big you can make one stack. My preference these days is to go with same OEM for both battery and inverter. Currently thats EG4, Fortress, Midnite as best I can remember. jay > On Sep 2, 2025, at 8:40 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, I went through the archives and read the comparison between these two. The HomeGrid manual was in such a mess (or my pdf reader was defunct), that I started looking at other options. If anyone has a strong opinion of either of these two, or something better, I would appreciate. We traditionally install small systems, and this would be one (@15kWh). I would prefer to use a racking system with the BMS as part of the packaging. Solark 12kPV multimode. Thank you, Chris > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From rick at solshineenergy.com Tue Sep 2 11:44:05 2025 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (Rick Brown) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 11:44:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider MPPT Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D945E9F-9FE3-40C3-AFED-2E730AB0AAE6@solshineenergy.com> Matt, Have you tried Zonna Energy? Their website says they repair Magnun, Outback, and Schneider inverters. They don’t specify charge controllers. https://www.zonnaenergy.com/about-us Off-Grid Solar Distributor zonnaenergy.com > On Sep 2, 2025, at 10:30 AM, Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > > I'm looking for a repair service that can fix a Schneider MPPT 80/600V. Any recommendations for a shop that can service out of warranty units? > > Thanks! > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > 304-704-5943 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE -- This email is intended only for the person(s) named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is confidential, privileged and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender of the error and delete the message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: man-worker-firld-by-solar-panels---1920w.png Type: image/png Size: 117186 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Sep 2 13:20:04 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2025 10:20:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider MPPT Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8238ed2bdeac9a2069dabb99228775bf@sti.net> It has been years now and mostly I replace the few that fail. Up in Oregon is/was Abney Solar Electrix main * ‪(541) 923-6000‬ Good Luck and get back here if they are still in business. Dean was my contact. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-09-02 7:30 am, Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm looking for a repair service that can fix a Schneider MPPT 80/600V. > Any recommendations for a shop that can service out of warranty units? > > Thanks! > -- > > Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC > > 304-704-5943 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Sep 2 15:34:14 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 15:34:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 v HomeGrid battery systems update? In-Reply-To: <994FD210-9A20-43CE-B4B4-CDE16E9DE024@mavericksolar.com> References: <39347efd-d84c-4769-b41e-283d30a414df@entech-engineering.com> <994FD210-9A20-43CE-B4B4-CDE16E9DE024@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <68fbddfc-a004-4587-bfaf-61464b15a027@entech-engineering.com> Thank you, this will be inside, so I won't need heated. Expandability would be nice as the loads are spread among three buildings.  Chris On 9/2/2025 11:35 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > The HomeGrid Stack’d is a nice expandable system where each blade adds > to the capacity. Each blade has a BMS and they communicate to the > master BMS that is stacked at the top of the top battery. I have a few > sites that are Stack’d! > > They are not officially server rack batteries since they stack self > contained and don’t use inter battery cables either. Need more > capacity, just stack another battery (shutdown, stack, DIP SW, boot > up). That is their advantage. The disadvantage is that they are only > 15S instead of the more well adopted 16S LiFePO4. That just means they > are slightly less flexible if the need arises to parallel another > brand… not a show stopper. > > I’d recommend HomeGrid Stack’d. They also have heated versions, if needed. > > maxresdefault.jpeg > Homegrid Stack'd Lithium Battery Deep Dive & Bootup with Maverick > MacGyver > youtube.com > > > > I also have EG4 Server Rack and Wallmount Batteries deployed. No > issues there either. The Wallmount batteries are also a breeze to > install with the quick connectors. The outdoor version is heated. > > If you are just needing 15kWh, then one wall mount battery and you are > done. > > Also, as a curve ball, the Discover HELIOS is also 16kWh and self > heated and also has an available gutter / wire-way that fits the > Sol-Ark 15k and it might also fit the 12k? That would make for a sweet > setup. > > > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* > * • Solar Commander Remote Power* > * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > *maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > >> On Sep 2, 2025, at 9:40 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hi Wrenches, I went through the archives and read the comparison >> between these two.  The HomeGrid manual was in such a mess (or my pdf >> reader was defunct), that I started looking at other options. If >> anyone has a strong opinion of either of these two, or something >> better, I would appreciate.  We traditionally install small systems, >> and this would be one (@15kWh).  I would prefer to use a racking >> system with the BMS as part of the packaging. Solark 12kPV >> multimode.  Thank you, Chris >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel, PE >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> (401) 447-5773 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 99070 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 2 16:31:21 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 16:31:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 v HomeGrid battery systems update? In-Reply-To: <39347efd-d84c-4769-b41e-283d30a414df@entech-engineering.com> References: <39347efd-d84c-4769-b41e-283d30a414df@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: We have some stacks of HomeGrid out there in various capacities, from the smallest with five in a stack, up to four fully populated stacks of eight. In total, I oversee around 150 Stack'd batteries, including many that I installed and some that were installed by others. I will say that they are easy to install, have a nice bold visual interface, look good, and perform up to expectations. They communicate flawlessly with Sol-Ark 15k. However... I believe there is a fundamental design flaw in this stackable battery architecture. Here is why I am no longer offering HomeGrid in a nutshell: - When one battery in a stack has a fault, the entire stack faults out, which renders the stack non-functional until you either: 1. Remove the battery from the stack or turn the circuit breaker off, and: 2. Reconfigure all of the dip switches to remove the battery from the communication loop, then: 3. Reprogram the master BMS to recognize the new stack members and their positions. - If you have multiple stacks, you have to do all of the above, and in addition: 1. Remove a battery from each additional stack to balance them, then perform all of the above steps on each stack. 2. But before you reprogram each master BMS you have to take the stacks out of parallel communication, then reprogram the parallel stacks before operation again. 3. Making each stack equal is per HomeGrid support, but in practice, I don't know if it is necessary, especially if you are losing one of eight (12.5%). If you have smaller stacks, this might be a bigger issue. - To diagnose a battery issue with a laptop and cable and get warranty support, you can only do that with the master BMS because each battery does not have a comm port. That means you have to have the entire stack non-functional while you perform diagnostics, which is not ideal for off-grid settings, especially if there is only one stack. - If a battery fails to balance and becomes depleted, causing a fault, there are no simple terminal bolts to connect an external charger. I'm not sure how you would even accomplish a manual charge without opening up the case. The EG4 server rack batteries work in a fundamentally different way. Each battery has an independent BMS. When there is an alarm in a stack or stacks of batteries, the entire battery bank does not fault out. You can physically take a battery out of the stack without changing any dip switches on the other batteries. You can shut one down or experience a fault on one battery without any others shutting down. I have tried this with the LifePower4 batteries, even when there are multiple communication strings of 16 batteries connected to a communication hub. The rest of the batteries just keep on working, which is the way it should be! The communication hub will just show zero values for the battery that is missing from the stack. I cannot confirm if this is the case with the LL batteries, but I suspect it would be. In a way, this is like having the batteries in an open loop in terms of resilience, with all of the benefits that closed-loop battery communications offers. I have had a small variety of battery issues with EG4, and not once has the whole bank of batteries been affected by one battery's issue. Side note about another server rack option: I can confirm that Pytes Ebox V1 batteries in a communication stack will shut down all batteries if one has a fault, at least confirmed by one situation I had. This is despite each battery having it's own BMS and console port to communicate with the batteries. The situation in my case was a battery that had no "Barcode" programmed into it, which was causing a parallel communication fault and shutting down the whole stack. In this case, physically bypassing the battery with the issue with a Cat5 coupling worked fine. There are no dip switches to set, and the master battery reconfigures the communication stack automatically. With Pytes' support, I was able to manually code in the Barcode to the BMS with a console cable, and the problem went away. I am not sure if all varieties of faults would have the same effect with Pytes EBoxes, but this communication issue definitely caused the whole stack to fault out. The phenomenon of the new breed of LFP batteries lacking reliability/redundancy inspired a blog post that I did just a couple of weeks ago: https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/homegrid-stackd-batteries-the-redundancy-fallacy A couple of other notes on HomeGrid: - They do not have any way to connect conduit to the BMS. You wouldn't want to anyway, especially with rigid conduit, since you might need to remove the BMS for service. The BMS should be at the bottom, in my opinion, for this reason. You can only run positive and negative battery cables out of the provided strain relief glands in free air, and it requires that the batteries be about 4 inches away from the wall. There is no suitable way to protect 100% of the battery cables. - Along the same lines, if you ever plan to expand the system, make sure you leave enough battery cable length to reach a higher level. - The lack of busbars is a really nice feature (until you get into larger systems). - The discharge rate supports the maximum input for a Sol-Ark 15K with, I believe, just three batteries. - I love their "busbar pair" designed specifically for the Sol-Ark 15K. I order a pair with every inverter, regardless of what battery I am using (although I am not actively selling Sol-Ark right now). - You can't monitor the condition of individual batteries with Solar Assistant, or any other tool remotely to my knowledge. You can't even monitor the condition of paralleled stacks. - The "app" for the batteries is mind-bendingly useless – unless I'm really missing something. - For some firmware and hardware versions, over-the-air updates are not possible, and HomeGrid will need to send you an update tool. To be fair, I think this is also the case with EG4 and some other manufacturers. - Once we received a shipment where three of eight batteries were in the right boxes, but there were no guts in the batteries at all! It was just an empty steel battery shell. We had to send them back to our supplier. The boxes actually said 13 Kg on the labels rather than 52 Kg, but nobody at the factory caught it. Strange. - HomeGrid Support is very competent, I would say among the best in terms of knowing their products inside and out, but it's 50/50 whether I get someone on the phone or get a call back in a timely manner that allows me to complete a service call. They are willing to schedule assistance if you have an off-grid situation that requires help. Is this a vote for EG4? Not necessarily, but it's hard to argue with the price and the superior reliability/redundancy aspects of the LifePower4/LL batteries. One battery fault should not shut down an entire system unless there is a legitimate safety hazard. It's possible that these are UL issues that require system shutdowns, but EG4 appears to have overcome the problems I've seen with other manufacturers' products. Like others mentioned, I prefer to go with the 14.3 kWh / 16 kWh sealed batteries. I feel they have better build quality (other than my recent rant about rust on the MNP PowerFlo16), and keeping components sealed up better just makes sense to me, especially in challenging environments. Of course, if you want more modularity in terms of expansion options and less impact if a single unit goes down, 5 kWh units might be a better option. There is no right or wrong option, I guess – sometimes it just comes down to priorities, space, mounting options, and price. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 10:41 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenches, I went through the archives and read the comparison between > these two. The HomeGrid manual was in such a mess (or my pdf reader was > defunct), that I started looking at other options. If anyone has a > strong opinion of either of these two, or something better, I would > appreciate. We traditionally install small systems, and this would be > one (@15kWh). I would prefer to use a racking system with the BMS as > part of the packaging. Solark 12kPV multimode. Thank you, Chris > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump3391 at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 18:38:39 2025 From: tump3391 at gmail.com (Blair May) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 18:38:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider MPPT Repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40840F53-E48E-4A18-BB68-C33B5ED4F915@gmail.com> What is needed to be done? Non operation, fan replacment? > On Sep 2, 2025, at 10:30 AM, Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > > I'm looking for a repair service that can fix a Schneider MPPT 80/600V. Any recommendations for a shop that can service out of warranty units? > > Thanks! > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > 304-704-5943 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Blair “TUMP” May Solarwinds Northernlights east "We must all learn to live together as brothers, or we all will perish as fools." MLK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Sep 2 23:28:24 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 20:28:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Mystery Message-ID: <8ce36b770333ef7ccab15af5f80f536c@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I have a project where I installed 36 IQ7 inverters a few years ago and then another 12 on a different building about 2 years ago On June 6 of this year a few of the 12 micro-inverters stopped producing. Over the course of the next 30 days the rest of the 12 stopped producing. When I checked on them the 12 were not communicating with the Envoy. I went on site and found the power to the string had been on and off intermittently due to a bad relay we have in the circuit. I bypassed the relay and the micros would still not produce or communicate. I called Enphase and they said there was noise on the power system that was causing the problem. I pondered this for a while and figured the micros should not stop producing if the communications went down. I called Enphase back twice and they could not offer a solution. I tried again today and the tech was able to determine there was a setting that when changed allowed communications. He also said there was a low DC resistance that indicates an arc fault. He was able to correct both issues and the 12 are now communicating and producing. The problem is over so I don’t want to put a lot of thought into this but my curiosity won’t let me stop thinking about this issue. I feel compelled to write to the list because if anyone experiences this problem they might benefit from what I learned. Have any of you experienced this? William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Sep 2 23:55:32 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2025 20:55:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. Message-ID: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Thank you for all of your input on this question. I feel it only right I report back how this turned out I tried a crimper like this: [image: HYCLAT 10 Tons Hydraulic Crimping Tool Battery Cable Lug Terminal Crimper with 9 Pairs of Dies, 12 AWG to 2/0 AWG Wire Crimping Tool] It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: [image: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/716TxXmojoL._SL1500_.jpg] This was suggested but I have not tried it either: [image: image0.png] I had tried a similar crimper to the two above but it expanded the width of the ferrule beyond what the lug would accept. Here is what several of you suggested: Slip the ferrule over the strands and insert it into the lug and let the set screw do the crimping for you. We tried this but the 4/0 ferrule when not crimped would not fit into the battery lug on a fortress Envy 12. The Envy 12 installation manual indicates a wire range of 1/0 to 3/0 and the placard inside the wire compartment door says up to 4/0. The lug seems tight for 4/0. Here is what we did: Back in the days of the Trace DC250 (maybe 1988-ish) we had trouble wrangling all of the strands of a fine-stranded 4/0 battery cable to all fit in the lug without a bunch of strands poking out. I found some thin (~35 gauge) copper sheet at a local hobby shop. I would clean and polish it shiny and cut a little strip of the sheet slightly wider than the strip length and long enough to wrap about 1-1/4 times around the strand. I would wrap it tightly around the strands and hold it temporarily in place with a thin cable tie. I bent the end of the sheet into a chamfered shape to help guide the assembly into the lug. After I got it started I would snip the cable tie, fully insert the cable and tighten the set screw. I never had one of these connections fail. This is what we did on the Envy 12 battery cables. The next day we removed all of the set screws and inspected the connections. They all looked great: The copper sheeting had not twisted, it had a nice, shapely dimple and, peaking up into the lug, the cable looked to be well seated. I hope this feedback helps someone, someday. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 97595 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26697 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9735 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Sep 3 06:16:31 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 06:16:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Mystery In-Reply-To: <8ce36b770333ef7ccab15af5f80f536c@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ce36b770333ef7ccab15af5f80f536c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William, I'm not sure about your issue, but 99.9% of the time when the level 1 customer service rep says you have a noise issue, just roll your eyes, hang up, and call back. They love this excuse. They seriously need to train reps that this is not a catch-all conclusion. I'm happy you finally got it resolved, but the noise rabbit hole is an annoyingly pervasive pathway for Enphase customer service reps. Once I have a resolution, what I usually do is ask them to provide a detailed technical email that explains the problem and resolution. Tell them your customer wants an explanation of why the issue occurred. That can sometimes provide some insight into what happened. Also, don't forget to check the "System Dashboard" in Enlighten Manager. The logs can sometimes provide at least some useful information. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 11:48 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I have a project where I installed 36 IQ7 inverters a few years ago and > then another 12 on a different building about 2 years ago > > > > On June 6 of this year a few of the 12 micro-inverters stopped producing. > Over the course of the next 30 days the rest of the 12 stopped producing. > When I checked on them the 12 were not communicating with the Envoy. > > > > I went on site and found the power to the string had been on and off > intermittently due to a bad relay we have in the circuit. I bypassed the > relay and the micros would still not produce or communicate. > > > > I called Enphase and they said there was noise on the power system that > was causing the problem. I pondered this for a while and figured the > micros should not stop producing if the communications went down. I called > Enphase back twice and they could not offer a solution. I tried again > today and the tech was able to determine there was a setting that when > changed allowed communications. He also said there was a low DC resistance > that indicates an arc fault. He was able to correct both issues and the 12 > are now communicating and producing. > > > > The problem is over so I don’t want to put a lot of thought into this but > my curiosity won’t let me stop thinking about this issue. I feel compelled > to write to the list because if anyone experiences this problem they might > benefit from what I learned. > > > > Have any of you experienced this? > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Sep 3 08:55:11 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2025 08:55:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Mystery In-Reply-To: <8ce36b770333ef7ccab15af5f80f536c@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ce36b770333ef7ccab15af5f80f536c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b438a3cc77add14272e46105e5b0b7e@redwoodalliance.org> I had a similar issue a few years ago. An array would not show several of the micro inverters. Noise was detected by my phone with the Toolkit. We added ferrite rings, which did not solve the problem. Later, for no known reason, the problem went away. Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-09-02 23:28, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > Friends: > > I have a project where I installed 36 IQ7 inverters a few years ago and > then another 12 on a different building about 2 years ago > > On June 6 of this year a few of the 12 micro-inverters stopped > producing. Over the course of the next 30 days the rest of the 12 > stopped producing. When I checked on them the 12 were not > communicating with the Envoy. > > I went on site and found the power to the string had been on and off > intermittently due to a bad relay we have in the circuit. I bypassed > the relay and the micros would still not produce or communicate. > > I called Enphase and they said there was noise on the power system that > was causing the problem. I pondered this for a while and figured the > micros should not stop producing if the communications went down. I > called Enphase back twice and they could not offer a solution. I tried > again today and the tech was able to determine there was a setting that > when changed allowed communications. He also said there was a low DC > resistance that indicates an arc fault. He was able to correct both > issues and the 12 are now communicating and producing. > > The problem is over so I don't want to put a lot of thought into this > but my curiosity won't let me stop thinking about this issue. I feel > compelled to write to the list because if anyone experiences this > problem they might benefit from what I learned. > > Have any of you experienced this? > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [1] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 09:07:49 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 07:07:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <54D10555-4319-4662-9EBF-343E7E0E4B1F@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Sep 3 13:18:58 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 13:18:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 v HomeGrid battery systems update? In-Reply-To: References: <39347efd-d84c-4769-b41e-283d30a414df@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Nothing like a coincidence... A client on an island with three stacks of 8 HomeGrid batteries has just called me to report that the entire system is down. All of the battery BMS module displays are dark. I have mySolArk data from three inverters there that show the batteries were topped off and just idling along with solar covering the load at 5:00 pm last night when the power suddenly went out, killing the Starlink connection. I'm going for a boat ride tomorrow to check it out. Ugh. I will report my findings. Not sure if it's a battery or inverter issue, but the customer's handyman reported nothing on the battery screens, which seems strange to me. Even an error should not turn the display off, as far as I recall. P.S. No power loss notifications from Sol-Ark is a frustrating loss of functionality. I heard a rumor on Facebook that they are fixing this in mySolArk this month, but I'm not holding my breath. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 4:31 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > We have some stacks of HomeGrid out there in various capacities, from the > smallest with five in a stack, up to four fully populated stacks of eight. > In total, I oversee around 150 Stack'd batteries, including many that I > installed and some that were installed by others. I will say that they are > easy to install, have a nice bold visual interface, look good, and perform > up to expectations. They communicate flawlessly with Sol-Ark 15k. However... > > I believe there is a fundamental design flaw in this stackable battery > architecture. Here is why I am no longer offering HomeGrid in a nutshell: > > - When one battery in a stack has a fault, the entire stack faults > out, which renders the stack non-functional until you either: > 1. Remove the battery from the stack or turn the circuit breaker > off, and: > 2. Reconfigure all of the dip switches to remove the battery from > the communication loop, then: > 3. Reprogram the master BMS to recognize the new stack members and > their positions. > - If you have multiple stacks, you have to do all of the above, and in > addition: > 1. Remove a battery from each additional stack to balance them, > then perform all of the above steps on each stack. > 2. But before you reprogram each master BMS you have to take the > stacks out of parallel communication, then reprogram the parallel stacks > before operation again. > 3. Making each stack equal is per HomeGrid support, but in > practice, I don't know if it is necessary, especially if you are losing one > of eight (12.5%). If you have smaller stacks, this might be a bigger issue. > - To diagnose a battery issue with a laptop and cable and get warranty > support, you can only do that with the master BMS because each battery does > not have a comm port. That means you have to have the entire stack > non-functional while you perform diagnostics, which is not ideal for > off-grid settings, especially if there is only one stack. > - If a battery fails to balance and becomes depleted, causing a fault, > there are no simple terminal bolts to connect an external charger. I'm not > sure how you would even accomplish a manual charge without opening up the > case. > > The EG4 server rack batteries work in a fundamentally different way. Each > battery has an independent BMS. When there is an alarm in a stack or stacks > of batteries, the entire battery bank does not fault out. You can > physically take a battery out of the stack without changing any dip > switches on the other batteries. You can shut one down or experience > a fault on one battery without any others shutting down. I have tried this > with the LifePower4 batteries, even when there are multiple communication > strings of 16 batteries connected to a communication hub. The rest of the > batteries just keep on working, which is the way it should be! The > communication hub will just show zero values for the battery that is > missing from the stack. I cannot confirm if this is the case with the LL > batteries, but I suspect it would be. In a way, this is like having the > batteries in an open loop in terms of resilience, with all of the benefits > that closed-loop battery communications offers. I have had a small variety > of battery issues with EG4, and not once has the whole bank of batteries > been affected by one battery's issue. > > Side note about another server rack option: I can confirm that Pytes Ebox > V1 batteries in a communication stack will shut down all batteries if one > has a fault, at least confirmed by one situation I had. This is despite > each battery having it's own BMS and console port to communicate with the > batteries. The situation in my case was a battery that had no "Barcode" > programmed into it, which was causing a parallel communication fault and > shutting down the whole stack. In this case, physically bypassing the > battery with the issue with a Cat5 coupling worked fine. There are no dip > switches to set, and the master battery reconfigures the communication > stack automatically. With Pytes' support, I was able to manually code in > the Barcode to the BMS with a console cable, and the problem went away. I > am not sure if all varieties of faults would have the same effect with > Pytes EBoxes, but this communication issue definitely caused the whole > stack to fault out. > > > The phenomenon of the new breed of LFP batteries lacking > reliability/redundancy inspired a blog post that I did just a couple of > weeks ago: > https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/homegrid-stackd-batteries-the-redundancy-fallacy > > > A couple of other notes on HomeGrid: > > - They do not have any way to connect conduit to the BMS. You wouldn't > want to anyway, especially with rigid conduit, since you might need to > remove the BMS for service. The BMS should be at the bottom, in my opinion, > for this reason. You can only run positive and negative battery cables out > of the provided strain relief glands in free air, and it requires that the > batteries be about 4 inches away from the wall. There is no suitable way to > protect 100% of the battery cables. > - Along the same lines, if you ever plan to expand the system, make > sure you leave enough battery cable length to reach a higher level. > - The lack of busbars is a really nice feature (until you get into > larger systems). > - The discharge rate supports the maximum input for a Sol-Ark 15K > with, I believe, just three batteries. > - I love their "busbar pair" designed specifically for the Sol-Ark > 15K. I order a pair with every inverter, regardless of what battery I am > using (although I am not actively selling Sol-Ark right now). > - You can't monitor the condition of individual batteries with Solar > Assistant, or any other tool remotely to my knowledge. You can't even > monitor the condition of paralleled stacks. > - The "app" for the batteries is mind-bendingly useless – unless I'm > really missing something. > - For some firmware and hardware versions, over-the-air updates are > not possible, and HomeGrid will need to send you an update tool. To be > fair, I think this is also the case with EG4 and some other manufacturers. > - Once we received a shipment where three of eight batteries were in > the right boxes, but there were no guts in the batteries at all! It was > just an empty steel battery shell. We had to send them back to our > supplier. The boxes actually said 13 Kg on the labels rather than 52 Kg, > but nobody at the factory caught it. Strange. > - HomeGrid Support is very competent, I would say among the best in > terms of knowing their products inside and out, but it's 50/50 whether I > get someone on the phone or get a call back in a timely manner that allows > me to complete a service call. They are willing to schedule assistance if > you have an off-grid situation that requires help. > > > Is this a vote for EG4? Not necessarily, but it's hard to argue with the > price and the superior reliability/redundancy aspects of the LifePower4/LL > batteries. One battery fault should not shut down an entire system unless > there is a legitimate safety hazard. It's possible that these are UL issues > that require system shutdowns, but EG4 appears to have overcome the > problems I've seen with other manufacturers' products. > > Like others mentioned, I prefer to go with the 14.3 kWh / 16 kWh sealed > batteries. I feel they have better build quality (other than my recent rant > about rust on the MNP PowerFlo16), and keeping components sealed up better > just makes sense to me, especially in challenging environments. Of course, > if you want more modularity in terms of expansion options and less impact > if a single unit goes down, 5 kWh units might be a better option. There is > no right or wrong option, I guess – sometimes it just comes down to > priorities, space, mounting options, and price. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 10:41 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, I went through the archives and read the comparison between >> these two. The HomeGrid manual was in such a mess (or my pdf reader was >> defunct), that I started looking at other options. If anyone has a >> strong opinion of either of these two, or something better, I would >> appreciate. We traditionally install small systems, and this would be >> one (@15kWh). I would prefer to use a racking system with the BMS as >> part of the packaging. Solark 12kPV multimode. Thank you, Chris >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel, PE >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> (401) 447-5773 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Sep 3 14:42:32 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 11:42:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring generator on Envy app/web app Message-ID: Friends: I’m still learning this product. Neither the mobile or the web monitoring app will tell me when in the past the generator ran. This data is important to manage any off-grid system for maximum efficiency. I can see via the animated arrows when the gen is running but there is no data column for graphing or displaying generator history I called tech support and the person I spoke to can see generator history on his web-app but I can’t see it on my browser and I don’t have the column choice he has for generator graphing. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Wed Sep 3 14:57:40 2025 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 11:57:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> William, If the only reason the ferrule wouldn't fit after using the hex crimper was the ridge left where the dies meet, you could rotate the cable 120 degrees and crimp the ferrule again. I doubt that the indenter crimper will do a decent job with large ferrules. I do like your thin piece of copper solution. Not UL approved but I dare say wrench approved. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 9/2/2025 8:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > Thank you for all of your input on this question.  I feel it only > right I report back how this turned out > > I tried a crimper like this: > > HYCLAT 10 Tons Hydraulic Crimping Tool Battery Cable Lug Terminal > Crimper with 9 Pairs of Dies, 12 AWG to 2/0 AWG Wire Crimping Tool > > It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. > > The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: > > https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/716TxXmojoL._SL1500_.jpg > > This was suggested but I have not tried it either: > > image0.png > > I had tried a similar crimper to the two above but it expanded the > width of the ferrule beyond what the lug would accept. > > Here is what several of you suggested:  Slip the ferrule over the > strands and insert it into the lug and let the set screw do the > crimping for you.  We tried this but the 4/0 ferrule when not crimped > would not fit into the battery lug on a fortress Envy 12.  The Envy 12 > installation manual indicates a wire range of 1/0 to 3/0 and the > placard inside the wire compartment door says up to 4/0.  The lug > seems tight for 4/0. > > Here is what we did:  Back in the days of the Trace DC250 (maybe > 1988-ish) we had trouble wrangling all of the strands of a > fine-stranded 4/0 battery cable to all fit in the lug without a bunch > of strands poking out.  I found some thin (~35 gauge) copper sheet at > a local hobby shop.  I would clean and polish it shiny and cut a > little strip of the sheet slightly wider than the strip length and > long enough to wrap about 1-1/4 times around the strand.  I would wrap > it tightly around the strands and hold it temporarily in place with a > thin cable tie.  I bent the end of the sheet into a chamfered shape to > help guide the assembly into the lug.  After I got it started I would > snip the cable tie, fully insert the cable and tighten the set screw.  > I never had one of these connections fail.  This is what we did on the > Envy 12 battery cables. > > The next day we removed all of the set screws and inspected the > connections.  They all looked great:  The copper sheeting had not > twisted, it had a nice, shapely dimple and, peaking up into the lug, > the cable looked to be well seated. > > I hope this feedback helps someone, someday. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26697 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9735 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 97595 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Sep 3 15:03:41 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 15:03:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 v HomeGrid battery systems update? In-Reply-To: References: <39347efd-d84c-4769-b41e-283d30a414df@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason, I spoke with Solark re Homegrid and EG4. Did not mention you name but your experience.  You have been really helpful.  I am centering on open loop w EG4. My longest work commute is 15 minutes on this island, so it's just having the time to trouble shoot. Plus, one mess up, and everyone knows about it. Chris On 9/3/2025 1:18 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Nothing like a coincidence... > > A client on an island with three stacks of 8 HomeGrid batteries has > just called me to report that the entire system is down. All of the > battery BMS module displays are dark. I have mySolArk data from three > inverters there that show the batteries were topped off and just > idling along with solar covering the load at 5:00 pm last night when > the power suddenly went out, killing the Starlink connection. I'm > going for a boat ride tomorrow to check it out. Ugh. > > I will report my findings. Not sure if it's a battery or inverter > issue, but the customer's handyman reported nothing on the battery > screens, which seems strange to me. Even an error should not turn the > display off, as far as I recall. > > P.S. No power loss notifications from Sol-Ark is a frustrating loss of > functionality. I heard a rumor on Facebook that they are fixing this > in mySolArk this month, but I'm not holding my breath. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 4:31 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > We have some stacks of HomeGrid out there in various capacities, > from the smallest with five in a stack, up to four fully populated > stacks of eight. In total, I oversee around 150 Stack'd batteries, > including many that I installed and some that were installed by > others. I will say that they are easy to install, have a nice bold > visual interface, look good, and perform up to expectations. They > communicate flawlessly with Sol-Ark 15k. However... > > I believe there is a fundamental design flaw in this stackable > battery architecture. Here is why I am no longer offering HomeGrid > in a nutshell: > > * When one battery in a stack has a fault, the entire stack > faults out, which renders the stack non-functional until you > either: > 1. Remove the battery from the stack or turn the circuit > breaker off, and: > 2. Reconfigure all of the dip switches to remove the > battery from the communication loop, then: > 3. Reprogram the master BMS to recognize the new stack > members and their positions. > * If you have multiple stacks, you have to do all of the above, > and in addition: > 1. Remove a battery from each additional stack to balance > them, then perform all of the above steps on each stack. > 2. But before you reprogram each master BMS you have to take > the stacks out of parallel communication, then reprogram > the parallel stacks before operation again. > 3. Making each stack equal is per HomeGrid support, but in > practice, I don't know if it is necessary, especially if > you are losing one of eight (12.5%). If you have smaller > stacks, this might be a bigger issue. > * To diagnose a battery issue with a laptop and cable and get > warranty support, you can only do that with the master BMS > because each battery does not have a comm port. That means you > have to have the entire stack non-functional while you perform > diagnostics, which is not ideal for off-grid settings, > especially if there is only one stack. > * If a battery fails to balance and becomes depleted, causing a > fault, there are no simple terminal bolts to connect an > external charger. I'm not sure how you would even accomplish a > manual charge without opening up the case. > > The EG4 server rack batteries work in a fundamentally different > way. Each battery has an independent BMS. When there is an alarm > in a stack or stacks of batteries, the entire battery bank does > not fault out. You can physically take a battery out of the stack > without changing any dip switches on the other batteries. You can > shut one down or experience a fault on one battery without any > others shutting down. I have tried this with the LifePower4 > batteries, even when there are multiple communication strings of > 16 batteries connected to a communication hub. The rest of the > batteries just keep on working, which is the way it should be! The > communication hub will just show zero values for the battery that > is missing from the stack. I cannot confirm if this is the case > with the LL batteries, but I suspect it would be. In a way, this > is like having the batteries in an open loop in terms of > resilience, with all of the benefits that closed-loop battery > communications offers. I have had a small variety of battery > issues with EG4, and not once has the whole bank of batteries been > affected by one battery's issue. > > Side note about another server rack option: I can confirm that > Pytes Ebox V1 batteries in a communication stack will shut down > all batteries if one has a fault, at least confirmed by one > situation I had. This is despite each battery having it's own BMS > and console port to communicate with the batteries. The situation > in my case was a battery that had no "Barcode" programmed into it, > which was causing a parallel communication fault and shutting down > the whole stack. In this case, physically bypassing the battery > with the issue with a Cat5 coupling worked fine. There are no dip > switches to set, and the master battery reconfigures the > communication stack automatically. With Pytes' support, I was able > to manually code in the Barcode to the BMS with a console cable, > and the problem went away. I am not sure if all varieties of > faults would have the same effect with Pytes EBoxes, but this > communication issue definitely caused the whole stack to fault out. > > > The phenomenon of the new breed of LFP batteries lacking > reliability/redundancy inspired a blog post that I did just a > couple of weeks ago: > https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/homegrid-stackd-batteries-the-redundancy-fallacy > > > A couple of other notes on HomeGrid: > > * They do not have any way to connect conduit to the BMS. You > wouldn't want to anyway, especially with rigid conduit, since > you might need to remove the BMS for service. The BMS should > be at the bottom, in my opinion, for this reason. You can only > run positive and negative battery cables out of the provided > strain relief glands in free air, and it requires that the > batteries be about 4 inches away from the wall. There is no > suitable way to protect 100% of the battery cables. > * Along the same lines, if you ever plan to expand the system, > make sure you leave enough battery cable length to reach a > higher level. > * The lack of busbars is a really nice feature (until you get > into larger systems). > * The discharge rate supports the maximum input for a Sol-Ark > 15K with, I believe, just three batteries. > * I love their "busbar pair" designed specifically for the > Sol-Ark 15K. I order a pair with every inverter, regardless of > what battery I am using (although I am not actively selling > Sol-Ark right now). > * You can't monitor the condition of individual batteries with > Solar Assistant, or any other tool remotely to my knowledge. > You can't even monitor the condition of paralleled stacks. > * The "app" for the batteries is mind-bendingly useless – unless > I'm really missing something. > * For some firmware and hardware versions, over-the-air updates > are not possible, and HomeGrid will need to send you an update > tool. To be fair, I think this is also the case with EG4 and > some other manufacturers. > * Once we received a shipment where three of eight batteries > were in the right boxes, but there were no guts in the > batteries at all! It was just an empty steel battery shell. We > had to send them back to our supplier. The boxes actually said > 13 Kg on the labels rather than 52 Kg, but nobody at the > factory caught it. Strange. > * HomeGrid Support is very competent, I would say among the best > in terms of knowing their products inside and out, but it's > 50/50 whether I get someone on the phone or get a call back in > a timely manner that allows me to complete a service call. > They are willing to schedule assistance if you have an > off-grid situation that requires help. > > > Is this a vote for EG4? Not necessarily, but it's hard to argue > with the price and the superior reliability/redundancy aspects of > the LifePower4/LL batteries. One battery fault should not shut > down an entire system unless there is a legitimate safety hazard. > It's possible that these are UL issues that require > system shutdowns, but EG4 appears to have overcome the problems > I've seen with other manufacturers' products. > > Like others mentioned, I prefer to go with the 14.3 kWh / 16 kWh > sealed batteries. I feel they have better build quality (other > than my recent rant about rust on the MNP PowerFlo16), and keeping > components sealed up better just makes sense to me, especially in > challenging environments. Of course, if you want more modularity > in terms of expansion options and less impact if a single unit > goes down, 5 kWh units might be a better option. There is no right > or wrong option, I guess – sometimes it just comes down to > priorities, space, mounting options, and price. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 10:41 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, I went through the archives and read the > comparison between > these two.  The HomeGrid manual was in such a mess (or my pdf > reader was > defunct), that I started looking at other options. If anyone > has a > strong opinion of either of these two, or something better, I > would > appreciate.  We traditionally install small systems, and this > would be > one (@15kWh).  I would prefer to use a racking system with the > BMS as > part of the packaging. Solark 12kPV multimode.  Thank you, Chris > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Sep 3 15:19:16 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2025 19:19:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 v HomeGrid battery systems update? In-Reply-To: References: <39347efd-d84c-4769-b41e-283d30a414df@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Happy to help. Sol-Ark already knows I'm pretty ticked off with them. :) Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 3:05 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Jason, I spoke with Solark re Homegrid and EG4. Did not mention you name > but your experience.  You have been really helpful.  I am centering on open > loop w EG4. My longest work commute is 15 minutes on this island, so it's just > having the time to trouble shoot. Plus, one mess up, and everyone knows about > it.  Chris > > On 9/3/2025 1:18 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > Nothing like a coincidence...  > > > > > > A client on an island with three stacks of 8 HomeGrid batteries has just > > called me to report that the entire system is down. All of the battery BMS > > module displays are dark. I have mySolArk data from three inverters there > > that show the batteries were topped off and just idling along with solar > > covering the load at 5:00 pm last night when the power suddenly went out, > > killing the Starlink connection. I'm going for a boat ride tomorrow to check > > it out. Ugh.  > > > > > > I will report my findings. Not sure if it's a battery or inverter issue, but > > the customer's handyman reported nothing on the battery screens, which seems > > strange to me. Even an error should not turn the display off, as far as I > > recall. > > > > > > P.S. No power loss notifications from Sol-Ark is a frustrating loss of > > functionality. I heard a rumor on Facebook that they are fixing this > > in mySolArk this month, but I'm not holding my breath. > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///wAAACwAAAAAAQABAAACAkQBADs=3D] > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 4:31 PM Jason Szumlanski > floridasolardesigngroup.com [jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com]> wrote: > > > > > We have some stacks of HomeGrid out there in various capacities, from the > > > smallest with five in a stack, up to four fully populated stacks of eight. > > > In total, I oversee around 150 Stack'd batteries, including many that I > > > installed and some that were installed by others. I will say that they are > > > easy to install, have a nice bold visual interface, look good, and perform > > > up to expectations. They communicate flawlessly with Sol-Ark 15k. > > > However... > > > > > > > > > I believe there is a fundamental design flaw in this stackable battery > > > architecture. Here is why I am no longer offering HomeGrid in a nutshell: > > > * When one battery in a stack has a fault, the entire stack faults out, > > > which renders the stack non-functional until you either: > > > 1. Remove the battery from the stack or turn the circuit breaker off, > > > and: > > > 2. Reconfigure all of the dip switches to remove the battery from the > > > communication loop, then: > > > 3. Reprogram the master BMS to recognize the new stack members and > > > their positions. > > > > > > * If you have multiple stacks, you have to do all of the above, and in > > > addition: > > > 1. Remove a battery from each additional stack to balance them, then > > > perform all of the above steps on each stack.  > > > 2. But before you reprogram each master BMS you have to take the > > > stacks out of parallel communication, then reprogram the parallel > > > stacks before operation again.  > > > 3. Making each stack equal is per HomeGrid support, but in practice, I > > > don't know if it is necessary, especially if you are losing one of > > > eight (12.5%). If you have smaller stacks, this might be a bigger > > > issue. > > > > > > * To diagnose a battery issue with a laptop and cable and get warranty > > > support, you can only do that with the master BMS because each battery > > > does not have a comm port. That means you have to have the entire stack > > > non-functional while you perform diagnostics, which is not ideal for > > > off-grid settings, especially if there is only one stack. > > > * If a battery fails to balance and becomes depleted, causing a fault, > > > there are no simple terminal bolts to connect an external charger. I'm > > > not sure how you would even accomplish a manual charge without opening > > > up the case. > > > > > > The EG4 server rack batteries work in a fundamentally different way. Each > > > battery has an independent BMS. When there is an alarm in a stack or > > > stacks of batteries, the entire battery bank does not fault out. You can > > > physically take a battery out of the stack without changing any dip > > > switches on the other batteries. You can shut one down or experience > > > a fault on one battery without any others shutting down. I have tried this > > > with the LifePower4 batteries, even when there are multiple communication > > > strings of 16 batteries connected to a communication hub. The rest of the > > > batteries just keep on working, which is the way it should be! The > > > communication hub will just show zero values for the battery that is > > > missing from the stack. I cannot confirm if this is the case with the LL > > > batteries, but I suspect it would be. In a way, this is like having the > > > batteries in an open loop in terms of resilience, with all of the benefits > > > that closed-loop battery communications offers. I have had a small variety > > > of battery issues with EG4, and not once has the whole bank of batteries > > > been affected by one battery's issue. > > > > > > > > > Side note about another server rack option: I can confirm that Pytes Ebox > > > V1 batteries in a communication stack will shut down all batteries if one > > > has a fault, at least confirmed by one situation I had. This is despite > > > each battery having it's own BMS and console port to communicate with the > > > batteries. The situation in my case was a battery that had no "Barcode" > > > programmed into it, which was causing a parallel communication fault and > > > shutting down the whole stack. In this case, physically bypassing the > > > battery with the issue with a Cat5 coupling worked fine. There are no dip > > > switches to set, and the master battery reconfigures the communication > > > stack automatically. With Pytes' support, I was able to manually code in > > > the Barcode to the BMS with a console cable, and the problem went away. I > > > am not sure if all varieties of faults would have the same effect with > > > Pytes EBoxes, but this communication issue definitely caused the whole > > > stack to fault out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The phenomenon of the new breed of LFP batteries lacking > > > reliability/redundancy inspired a blog post that I did just a couple of > > > weeks ago: https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/ > > > homegrid-stackd-batteries-the-redundancy-fallacy > > > [https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/homegrid-stackd-batteries-the-redundancy-fallacy] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A couple of other notes on HomeGrid: > > > * They do not have any way to connect conduit to the BMS. You wouldn't > > > want to anyway, especially with rigid conduit, since you might need to > > > remove the BMS for service. The BMS should be at the bottom, in my > > > opinion, for this reason. You can only run positive and negative > > > battery cables out of the provided strain relief glands in free air, > > > and it requires that the batteries be about 4 inches away from the > > > wall. There is no suitable way to protect 100% of the battery cables. > > > * Along the same lines, if you ever plan to expand the system, make sure > > > you leave enough battery cable length to reach a higher level. > > > * The lack of busbars is a really nice feature (until you get into larger > > > systems). > > > * The discharge rate supports the maximum input for a Sol-Ark 15K with, I > > > believe, just three batteries. > > > * I love their "busbar pair" designed specifically for the Sol-Ark 15K. I > > > order a pair with every inverter, regardless of what battery I am using > > > (although I am not actively selling Sol-Ark right now). > > > * You can't monitor the condition of individual batteries with Solar > > > Assistant, or any other tool remotely to my knowledge. You can't even > > > monitor the condition of paralleled stacks. > > > * The "app" for the batteries is mind-bendingly useless – unless I'm > > > really missing something. > > > * For some firmware and hardware versions, over-the-air updates are not > > > possible, and HomeGrid will need to send you an update tool. To be > > > fair, I think this is also the case with EG4 and some other > > > manufacturers. > > > * Once we received a shipment where three of eight batteries were in the > > > right boxes, but there were no guts in the batteries at all! It was > > > just an empty steel battery shell. We had to send them back to our > > > supplier. The boxes actually said 13 Kg on the labels rather than 52 > > > Kg, but nobody at the factory caught it. Strange. > > > * HomeGrid Support is very competent, I would say among the best in terms > > > of knowing their products inside and out, but it's 50/50 whether I get > > > someone on the phone or get a call back in a timely manner that allows > > > me to complete a service call. They are willing to schedule assistance > > > if you have an off-grid situation that requires help. > > > > > > > > > Is this a vote for EG4? Not necessarily, but it's hard to argue with the > > > price and the superior reliability/redundancy aspects of the LifePower4/LL > > > batteries. One battery fault should not shut down an entire system unless > > > there is a legitimate safety hazard. It's possible that these are UL > > > issues that require system shutdowns, but EG4 appears to have overcome the > > > problems I've seen with other manufacturers' products. > > > > > > > > > Like others mentioned, I prefer to go with the 14.3 kWh / 16 kWh sealed > > > batteries. I feel they have better build quality (other than my recent > > > rant about rust on the MNP PowerFlo16), and keeping components sealed up > > > better just makes sense to me, especially in challenging environments. Of > > > course, if you want more modularity in terms of expansion options and less > > > impact if a single unit goes down, 5 kWh units might be a better option. > > > There is no right or wrong option, I guess – sometimes it just comes down > > > to priorities, space, mounting options, and price.  > > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > > > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > > > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 10:41 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Wrenches, I went through the archives and read the comparison between > > > > these two.  The HomeGrid manual was in such a mess (or my pdf reader was > > > > defunct), that I started looking at other options. If anyone has a > > > > strong opinion of either of these two, or something better, I would > > > > appreciate.  We traditionally install small systems, and this would be > > > > one (@15kWh).  I would prefer to use a racking system with the BMS as > > > > part of the packaging. Solark 12kPV multimode.  Thank you, Chris > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Christopher Warfel, PE > > > > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > > > > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > > > > (401) 447-5773 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > > > > the other: > > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orghttp://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgRE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orghttp://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orghttp://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmhttp://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.orghttp://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Sep 3 16:39:46 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 14:39:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: I've got to ask: Are none of the lugs on these Chinese inverters approved for fine strand cable?  I just have not had a problem with that, but I've mostly used Magnum, Midnite, and Outback equipment over the years.   What were the lugs on the old Trace DC 250 boxes?  Were they fine strand rated?  They sure were tough to get 4/0 into, as William mentioned. Ray Remote Solar On 9/3/2025 12:57 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > > William, > > If the only reason the ferrule wouldn't fit after using the hex > crimper was the ridge left where the dies meet, you could rotate the > cable 120 degrees and crimp the ferrule again. > > I doubt that the indenter crimper will do a decent job with large > ferrules. > > I do like your thin piece of copper solution. Not UL approved but I > dare say wrench approved. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 9/2/2025 8:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> Thank you for all of your input on this question.  I feel it only >> right I report back how this turned out >> >> I tried a crimper like this: >> >> >> It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. >> >> The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: >> >> >> This was suggested but I have not tried it either: >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Sep 3 16:55:22 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 14:55:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 v HomeGrid battery systems update? In-Reply-To: References: <39347efd-d84c-4769-b41e-283d30a414df@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: I have one Home Grid system out here; its in their outdoor enclosure with built in battery heating.  I've had more call backs in the past year with that system than all my other off grid systems combined.  I've struggled with getting the right LVD settings, and even with decent settings, it seems the battery heating and the no load draw of the BMS will go ahead and drag the battery into shut down, requiring a trip out.  I have a small variable DC power supply which has been very important in the new days of LiPO4.  I run it on a Ryobi inverter. One of the times I went out, the system was not shut down, but the HomeGrid screen was blank, and I had to reboot the battery to get it back on.  I also experienced the BMS shutdown others mentioned, when one of the 4 batteries was out of EQ with the other batteries.  Even the initial startup was a nightmare, requiring a tech to take over my computer remotely, and then a month later, I had to sit out there for 3 hours while it came to full charge so I could bring the 4th battery back on line.  At least their Tech Support was really good. Also their outdoor enclosure is really chinzy, it takes over 30 stainless screws to attach the 2 halves together, and many of those screws have galled  and are unusable.  I even had to cut a couple off just to get in to service the battery. Ray Remote Solar On 9/3/2025 11:18 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Nothing like a coincidence... > > A client on an island with three stacks of 8 HomeGrid batteries has > just called me to report that the entire system is down. All of the > battery BMS module displays are dark. I have mySolArk data from three > inverters there that show the batteries were topped off and just > idling along with solar covering the load at 5:00 pm last night when > the power suddenly went out, killing the Starlink connection. I'm > going for a boat ride tomorrow to check it out. Ugh. > > I will report my findings. Not sure if it's a battery or inverter > issue, but the customer's handyman reported nothing on the battery > screens, which seems strange to me. Even an error should not turn the > display off, as far as I recall. > > P.S. No power loss notifications from Sol-Ark is a frustrating loss of > functionality. I heard a rumor on Facebook that they are fixing this > in mySolArk this month, but I'm not holding my breath. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 4:31 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > We have some stacks of HomeGrid out there in various capacities, > from the smallest with five in a stack, up to four fully populated > stacks of eight. In total, I oversee around 150 Stack'd batteries, > including many that I installed and some that were installed by > others. I will say that they are easy to install, have a nice bold > visual interface, look good, and perform up to expectations. They > communicate flawlessly with Sol-Ark 15k. However... > > I believe there is a fundamental design flaw in this stackable > battery architecture. Here is why I am no longer offering HomeGrid > in a nutshell: > > * When one battery in a stack has a fault, the entire stack > faults out, which renders the stack non-functional until you > either: > 1. Remove the battery from the stack or turn the circuit > breaker off, and: > 2. Reconfigure all of the dip switches to remove the > battery from the communication loop, then: > 3. Reprogram the master BMS to recognize the new stack > members and their positions. > * If you have multiple stacks, you have to do all of the above, > and in addition: > 1. Remove a battery from each additional stack to balance > them, then perform all of the above steps on each stack. > 2. But before you reprogram each master BMS you have to take > the stacks out of parallel communication, then reprogram > the parallel stacks before operation again. > 3. Making each stack equal is per HomeGrid support, but in > practice, I don't know if it is necessary, especially if > you are losing one of eight (12.5%). If you have smaller > stacks, this might be a bigger issue. > * To diagnose a battery issue with a laptop and cable and get > warranty support, you can only do that with the master BMS > because each battery does not have a comm port. That means you > have to have the entire stack non-functional while you perform > diagnostics, which is not ideal for off-grid settings, > especially if there is only one stack. > * If a battery fails to balance and becomes depleted, causing a > fault, there are no simple terminal bolts to connect an > external charger. I'm not sure how you would even accomplish a > manual charge without opening up the case. > > The EG4 server rack batteries work in a fundamentally different > way. Each battery has an independent BMS. When there is an alarm > in a stack or stacks of batteries, the entire battery bank does > not fault out. You can physically take a battery out of the stack > without changing any dip switches on the other batteries. You can > shut one down or experience a fault on one battery without any > others shutting down. I have tried this with the LifePower4 > batteries, even when there are multiple communication strings of > 16 batteries connected to a communication hub. The rest of the > batteries just keep on working, which is the way it should be! The > communication hub will just show zero values for the battery that > is missing from the stack. I cannot confirm if this is the case > with the LL batteries, but I suspect it would be. In a way, this > is like having the batteries in an open loop in terms of > resilience, with all of the benefits that closed-loop battery > communications offers. I have had a small variety of battery > issues with EG4, and not once has the whole bank of batteries been > affected by one battery's issue. > > Side note about another server rack option: I can confirm that > Pytes Ebox V1 batteries in a communication stack will shut down > all batteries if one has a fault, at least confirmed by one > situation I had. This is despite each battery having it's own BMS > and console port to communicate with the batteries. The situation > in my case was a battery that had no "Barcode" programmed into it, > which was causing a parallel communication fault and shutting down > the whole stack. In this case, physically bypassing the battery > with the issue with a Cat5 coupling worked fine. There are no dip > switches to set, and the master battery reconfigures the > communication stack automatically. With Pytes' support, I was able > to manually code in the Barcode to the BMS with a console cable, > and the problem went away. I am not sure if all varieties of > faults would have the same effect with Pytes EBoxes, but this > communication issue definitely caused the whole stack to fault out. > > > The phenomenon of the new breed of LFP batteries lacking > reliability/redundancy inspired a blog post that I did just a > couple of weeks ago: > https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/homegrid-stackd-batteries-the-redundancy-fallacy > > > A couple of other notes on HomeGrid: > > * They do not have any way to connect conduit to the BMS. You > wouldn't want to anyway, especially with rigid conduit, since > you might need to remove the BMS for service. The BMS should > be at the bottom, in my opinion, for this reason. You can only > run positive and negative battery cables out of the provided > strain relief glands in free air, and it requires that the > batteries be about 4 inches away from the wall. There is no > suitable way to protect 100% of the battery cables. > * Along the same lines, if you ever plan to expand the system, > make sure you leave enough battery cable length to reach a > higher level. > * The lack of busbars is a really nice feature (until you get > into larger systems). > * The discharge rate supports the maximum input for a Sol-Ark > 15K with, I believe, just three batteries. > * I love their "busbar pair" designed specifically for the > Sol-Ark 15K. I order a pair with every inverter, regardless of > what battery I am using (although I am not actively selling > Sol-Ark right now). > * You can't monitor the condition of individual batteries with > Solar Assistant, or any other tool remotely to my knowledge. > You can't even monitor the condition of paralleled stacks. > * The "app" for the batteries is mind-bendingly useless – unless > I'm really missing something. > * For some firmware and hardware versions, over-the-air updates > are not possible, and HomeGrid will need to send you an update > tool. To be fair, I think this is also the case with EG4 and > some other manufacturers. > * Once we received a shipment where three of eight batteries > were in the right boxes, but there were no guts in the > batteries at all! It was just an empty steel battery shell. We > had to send them back to our supplier. The boxes actually said > 13 Kg on the labels rather than 52 Kg, but nobody at the > factory caught it. Strange. > * HomeGrid Support is very competent, I would say among the best > in terms of knowing their products inside and out, but it's > 50/50 whether I get someone on the phone or get a call back in > a timely manner that allows me to complete a service call. > They are willing to schedule assistance if you have an > off-grid situation that requires help. > > > Is this a vote for EG4? Not necessarily, but it's hard to argue > with the price and the superior reliability/redundancy aspects of > the LifePower4/LL batteries. One battery fault should not shut > down an entire system unless there is a legitimate safety hazard. > It's possible that these are UL issues that require > system shutdowns, but EG4 appears to have overcome the problems > I've seen with other manufacturers' products. > > Like others mentioned, I prefer to go with the 14.3 kWh / 16 kWh > sealed batteries. I feel they have better build quality (other > than my recent rant about rust on the MNP PowerFlo16), and keeping > components sealed up better just makes sense to me, especially in > challenging environments. Of course, if you want more modularity > in terms of expansion options and less impact if a single unit > goes down, 5 kWh units might be a better option. There is no right > or wrong option, I guess – sometimes it just comes down to > priorities, space, mounting options, and price. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 10:41 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, I went through the archives and read the > comparison between > these two.  The HomeGrid manual was in such a mess (or my pdf > reader was > defunct), that I started looking at other options. If anyone > has a > strong opinion of either of these two, or something better, I > would > appreciate.  We traditionally install small systems, and this > would be > one (@15kWh).  I would prefer to use a racking system with the > BMS as > part of the packaging. Solark 12kPV multimode.  Thank you, Chris > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Wed Sep 3 17:07:30 2025 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 14:07:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: <87fb9547-5937-4600-9241-97527cfbcfe0@coveoregon.com> Ray, I believe that there was a burned wire/lug issue with a loose connection in a DC 250 box that caused the big concern about fine stranded wires only being used in lugs identified for fine strands. The old Trace 250 boxes were UL listed prior. I've never seen a problem with a loose wire in the DC250, but I check them every time I run into one of those old boxes. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 9/3/2025 1:39 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I've got to ask: Are none of the lugs on these Chinese inverters > approved for fine strand cable?  I just have not had a problem with > that, but I've mostly used Magnum, Midnite, and Outback equipment over > the years.   What were the lugs on the old Trace DC 250 boxes?  Were > they fine strand rated?  They sure were tough to get 4/0 into, as > William mentioned. > > Ray > Remote Solar > > On 9/3/2025 12:57 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> William, >> >> If the only reason the ferrule wouldn't fit after using the hex >> crimper was the ridge left where the dies meet, you could rotate the >> cable 120 degrees and crimp the ferrule again. >> >> I doubt that the indenter crimper will do a decent job with large >> ferrules. >> >> I do like your thin piece of copper solution. Not UL approved but I >> dare say wrench approved. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 9/2/2025 8:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> Thank you for all of your input on this question.  I feel it only >>> right I report back how this turned out >>> >>> I tried a crimper like this: >>> >>> >>> It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. >>> >>> The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: >>> >>> >>> This was suggested but I have not tried it either: >>> >>> >>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Sep 3 17:12:11 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 16:12:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 v HomeGrid battery systems update? In-Reply-To: References: <39347efd-d84c-4769-b41e-283d30a414df@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <6F99D093-0AE2-461A-81F0-365DAC7847F7@mavericksolar.com> This brings me back to a question I was trying to get data on… Not just specific to HomeGrid, but what Inverter was being used in this case? Was it open loop or closed loop? If open loop, was it inverter driven % based or inverter driven Voltage based? Recently, I had a long intermittent technical issue with a pair of Sol-Ark inverters that was using open loop but percentage based and it kept crashing out because the Simpliphi Battery BMS was at zero SOC when the inverter thought there was something left. I added a Victron SmartShunt to monitor and found that Inverter Percentage was not charging to the proper voltage (high enough to fill all the batteries). I switched to Voltage control and now all is well. Even the chart data on the inverter would show low voltage situations and would explain the situation. I just hadn’t even looked at the data deeply enough. I wonder if Percent Closed Loop control is better than Percent Open Loop control or are we leaving energy on the table? Let me know what you think? Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Sep 3, 2025, at 3:55 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have one Home Grid system out here; its in their outdoor enclosure with built in battery heating. I've had more call backs in the past year with that system than all my other off grid systems combined. I've struggled with getting the right LVD settings, and even with decent settings, it seems the battery heating and the no load draw of the BMS will go ahead and drag the battery into shut down, requiring a trip out. I have a small variable DC power supply which has been very important in the new days of LiPO4. I run it on a Ryobi inverter. > > One of the times I went out, the system was not shut down, but the HomeGrid screen was blank, and I had to reboot the battery to get it back on. I also experienced the BMS shutdown others mentioned, when one of the 4 batteries was out of EQ with the other batteries. Even the initial startup was a nightmare, requiring a tech to take over my computer remotely, and then a month later, I had to sit out there for 3 hours while it came to full charge so I could bring the 4th battery back on line. At least their Tech Support was really good. > > Also their outdoor enclosure is really chinzy, it takes over 30 stainless screws to attach the 2 halves together, and many of those screws have galled and are unusable. I even had to cut a couple off just to get in to service the battery. > > Ray > Remote Solar > > On 9/3/2025 11:18 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Nothing like a coincidence... >> >> A client on an island with three stacks of 8 HomeGrid batteries has just called me to report that the entire system is down. All of the battery BMS module displays are dark. I have mySolArk data from three inverters there that show the batteries were topped off and just idling along with solar covering the load at 5:00 pm last night when the power suddenly went out, killing the Starlink connection. I'm going for a boat ride tomorrow to check it out. Ugh. >> >> I will report my findings. Not sure if it's a battery or inverter issue, but the customer's handyman reported nothing on the battery screens, which seems strange to me. Even an error should not turn the display off, as far as I recall. >> >> P.S. No power loss notifications from Sol-Ark is a frustrating loss of functionality. I heard a rumor on Facebook that they are fixing this in mySolArk this month, but I'm not holding my breath. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 4:31 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: >>> We have some stacks of HomeGrid out there in various capacities, from the smallest with five in a stack, up to four fully populated stacks of eight. In total, I oversee around 150 Stack'd batteries, including many that I installed and some that were installed by others. I will say that they are easy to install, have a nice bold visual interface, look good, and perform up to expectations. They communicate flawlessly with Sol-Ark 15k. However... >>> >>> I believe there is a fundamental design flaw in this stackable battery architecture. Here is why I am no longer offering HomeGrid in a nutshell: >>> When one battery in a stack has a fault, the entire stack faults out, which renders the stack non-functional until you either: >>> Remove the battery from the stack or turn the circuit breaker off, and: >>> Reconfigure all of the dip switches to remove the battery from the communication loop, then: >>> Reprogram the master BMS to recognize the new stack members and their positions. >>> If you have multiple stacks, you have to do all of the above, and in addition: >>> Remove a battery from each additional stack to balance them, then perform all of the above steps on each stack. >>> But before you reprogram each master BMS you have to take the stacks out of parallel communication, then reprogram the parallel stacks before operation again. >>> Making each stack equal is per HomeGrid support, but in practice, I don't know if it is necessary, especially if you are losing one of eight (12.5%). If you have smaller stacks, this might be a bigger issue. >>> To diagnose a battery issue with a laptop and cable and get warranty support, you can only do that with the master BMS because each battery does not have a comm port. That means you have to have the entire stack non-functional while you perform diagnostics, which is not ideal for off-grid settings, especially if there is only one stack. >>> If a battery fails to balance and becomes depleted, causing a fault, there are no simple terminal bolts to connect an external charger. I'm not sure how you would even accomplish a manual charge without opening up the case. >>> The EG4 server rack batteries work in a fundamentally different way. Each battery has an independent BMS. When there is an alarm in a stack or stacks of batteries, the entire battery bank does not fault out. You can physically take a battery out of the stack without changing any dip switches on the other batteries. You can shut one down or experience a fault on one battery without any others shutting down. I have tried this with the LifePower4 batteries, even when there are multiple communication strings of 16 batteries connected to a communication hub. The rest of the batteries just keep on working, which is the way it should be! The communication hub will just show zero values for the battery that is missing from the stack. I cannot confirm if this is the case with the LL batteries, but I suspect it would be. In a way, this is like having the batteries in an open loop in terms of resilience, with all of the benefits that closed-loop battery communications offers. I have had a small variety of battery issues with EG4, and not once has the whole bank of batteries been affected by one battery's issue. >>> >>> Side note about another server rack option: I can confirm that Pytes Ebox V1 batteries in a communication stack will shut down all batteries if one has a fault, at least confirmed by one situation I had. This is despite each battery having it's own BMS and console port to communicate with the batteries. The situation in my case was a battery that had no "Barcode" programmed into it, which was causing a parallel communication fault and shutting down the whole stack. In this case, physically bypassing the battery with the issue with a Cat5 coupling worked fine. There are no dip switches to set, and the master battery reconfigures the communication stack automatically. With Pytes' support, I was able to manually code in the Barcode to the BMS with a console cable, and the problem went away. I am not sure if all varieties of faults would have the same effect with Pytes EBoxes, but this communication issue definitely caused the whole stack to fault out. >>> >>> >>> The phenomenon of the new breed of LFP batteries lacking reliability/redundancy inspired a blog post that I did just a couple of weeks ago: https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/homegrid-stackd-batteries-the-redundancy-fallacy >>> >>> >>> A couple of other notes on HomeGrid: >>> They do not have any way to connect conduit to the BMS. You wouldn't want to anyway, especially with rigid conduit, since you might need to remove the BMS for service. The BMS should be at the bottom, in my opinion, for this reason. You can only run positive and negative battery cables out of the provided strain relief glands in free air, and it requires that the batteries be about 4 inches away from the wall. There is no suitable way to protect 100% of the battery cables. >>> Along the same lines, if you ever plan to expand the system, make sure you leave enough battery cable length to reach a higher level. >>> The lack of busbars is a really nice feature (until you get into larger systems). >>> The discharge rate supports the maximum input for a Sol-Ark 15K with, I believe, just three batteries. >>> I love their "busbar pair" designed specifically for the Sol-Ark 15K. I order a pair with every inverter, regardless of what battery I am using (although I am not actively selling Sol-Ark right now). >>> You can't monitor the condition of individual batteries with Solar Assistant, or any other tool remotely to my knowledge. You can't even monitor the condition of paralleled stacks. >>> The "app" for the batteries is mind-bendingly useless – unless I'm really missing something. >>> For some firmware and hardware versions, over-the-air updates are not possible, and HomeGrid will need to send you an update tool. To be fair, I think this is also the case with EG4 and some other manufacturers. >>> Once we received a shipment where three of eight batteries were in the right boxes, but there were no guts in the batteries at all! It was just an empty steel battery shell. We had to send them back to our supplier. The boxes actually said 13 Kg on the labels rather than 52 Kg, but nobody at the factory caught it. Strange. >>> HomeGrid Support is very competent, I would say among the best in terms of knowing their products inside and out, but it's 50/50 whether I get someone on the phone or get a call back in a timely manner that allows me to complete a service call. They are willing to schedule assistance if you have an off-grid situation that requires help. >>> >>> Is this a vote for EG4? Not necessarily, but it's hard to argue with the price and the superior reliability/redundancy aspects of the LifePower4/LL batteries. One battery fault should not shut down an entire system unless there is a legitimate safety hazard. It's possible that these are UL issues that require system shutdowns, but EG4 appears to have overcome the problems I've seen with other manufacturers' products. >>> >>> Like others mentioned, I prefer to go with the 14.3 kWh / 16 kWh sealed batteries. I feel they have better build quality (other than my recent rant about rust on the MNP PowerFlo16), and keeping components sealed up better just makes sense to me, especially in challenging environments. Of course, if you want more modularity in terms of expansion options and less impact if a single unit goes down, 5 kWh units might be a better option. There is no right or wrong option, I guess – sometimes it just comes down to priorities, space, mounting options, and price. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 10:41 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> Hi Wrenches, I went through the archives and read the comparison between >>>> these two. The HomeGrid manual was in such a mess (or my pdf reader was >>>> defunct), that I started looking at other options. If anyone has a >>>> strong opinion of either of these two, or something better, I would >>>> appreciate. We traditionally install small systems, and this would be >>>> one (@15kWh). I would prefer to use a racking system with the BMS as >>>> part of the packaging. Solark 12kPV multimode. Thank you, Chris >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Christopher Warfel, PE >>>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>>> (401) 447-5773 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 17:18:51 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 14:18:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: <87fb9547-5937-4600-9241-97527cfbcfe0@coveoregon.com> References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> <87fb9547-5937-4600-9241-97527cfbcfe0@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: I was purchasing pre-made battery cables from my vendor, but we kept getting cables that had loose lugs crimped on, we could actually land them and then pull the cable out of the lugs. We started buying raw battery cable and crimps and making our own, and haven't looked back. We feel we make a much tighter/better connection. Mike On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 2:12 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Ray, > > I believe that there was a burned wire/lug issue with a loose connection > in a DC 250 box that caused the big concern about fine stranded wires only > being used in lugs identified for fine strands. The old Trace 250 boxes > were UL listed prior. > > I've never seen a problem with a loose wire in the DC250, but I check them > every time I run into one of those old boxes. > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 9/3/2025 1:39 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I've got to ask: Are none of the lugs on these Chinese inverters approved > for fine strand cable? I just have not had a problem with that, but I've > mostly used Magnum, Midnite, and Outback equipment over the years. What > were the lugs on the old Trace DC 250 boxes? Were they fine strand rated? > They sure were tough to get 4/0 into, as William mentioned. > > Ray > Remote Solar > On 9/3/2025 12:57 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > > William, > > If the only reason the ferrule wouldn't fit after using the hex crimper > was the ridge left where the dies meet, you could rotate the cable 120 > degrees and crimp the ferrule again. > > I doubt that the indenter crimper will do a decent job with large ferrules. > > I do like your thin piece of copper solution. Not UL approved but I dare > say wrench approved. > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 9/2/2025 8:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > > > Thank you for all of your input on this question. I feel it only right I > report back how this turned out > > > > I tried a crimper like this: > > > > > > > It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. > > > > The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: > > > This was suggested but I have not tried it either: > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 17:34:46 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 15:34:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: From my memory none of the compression lug style are rated for fine stand, at least without a ferrule. Because strands can get into the threads and bind, making it seam like its tight but its not. But I could be wrong > On Sep 3, 2025, at 2:39 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I've got to ask: Are none of the lugs on these Chinese inverters approved for fine strand cable? I just have not had a problem with that, but I've mostly used Magnum, Midnite, and Outback equipment over the years. What were the lugs on the old Trace DC 250 boxes? Were they fine strand rated? They sure were tough to get 4/0 into, as William mentioned. > > Ray > Remote Solar > > On 9/3/2025 12:57 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: >> William, >> >> If the only reason the ferrule wouldn't fit after using the hex crimper was the ridge left where the dies meet, you could rotate the cable 120 degrees and crimp the ferrule again. >> >> I doubt that the indenter crimper will do a decent job with large ferrules. >> >> I do like your thin piece of copper solution. Not UL approved but I dare say wrench approved. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 9/2/2025 8:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> Friends: >>> >>> Thank you for all of your input on this question. I feel it only right I report back how this turned out >>> >>> I tried a crimper like this: >>> >>> >>> >>> It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. >>> >>> The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: >>> >>> This was suggested but I have not tried it either: >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Sep 3 17:56:01 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 17:56:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: IMO, any OEM that recommends a ferrule does not use fine-strand rated compression lugs in their equipment. Rated lugs do exist, they just don’t seem to be spec’ed by OEMs. I don’t like ferrules on battery cable and always use fine-stranded compression PDBs when building custom battery combiners. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 5:38 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > From my memory none of the compression lug style are rated for fine stand, > at least without a ferrule. > > Because strands can get into the threads and bind, making it seam like its > tight but its not. > > But I could be wrong > > > On Sep 3, 2025, at 2:39 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I've got to ask: Are none of the lugs on these Chinese inverters approved > for fine strand cable? I just have not had a problem with that, but I've > mostly used Magnum, Midnite, and Outback equipment over the years. What > were the lugs on the old Trace DC 250 boxes? Were they fine strand rated? > They sure were tough to get 4/0 into, as William mentioned. > > Ray > Remote Solar > On 9/3/2025 12:57 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > > William, > > If the only reason the ferrule wouldn't fit after using the hex crimper > was the ridge left where the dies meet, you could rotate the cable 120 > degrees and crimp the ferrule again. > > I doubt that the indenter crimper will do a decent job with large ferrules. > > I do like your thin piece of copper solution. Not UL approved but I dare > say wrench approved. > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 9/2/2025 8:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > > Thank you for all of your input on this question. I feel it only right I > report back how this turned out > > > I tried a crimper like this: > > > > > > It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. > > > The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: > > This was suggested but I have not tried it either: > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 17:57:39 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 15:57:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring generator on Envy app/web app In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe if you go the web site for fortress Input&output power manage columns add AC/generator should work > On Sep 3, 2025, at 12:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > I’m still learning this product. Neither the mobile or the web monitoring app will tell me when in the past the generator ran. This data is important to manage any off-grid system for maximum efficiency. > > I can see via the animated arrows when the gen is running but there is no data column for graphing or displaying generator history > > I called tech support and the person I spoke to can see generator history on his web-app but I can’t see it on my browser and I don’t have the column choice he has for generator graphing. > > Any suggestions? Thanks in advance. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Sep 3 18:42:23 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 15:42:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring generator on Envy app/web app In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4c65a5c441f897b515275fbdc55c0f10@mail.gmail.com> Jay: Thank you. I did find that column although on my browser it is spelled AC Couple/Gnerator. It shows zero all day long for days I know the generator ran. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, September 3, 2025 2:58 PM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring generator on Envy app/web app I believe if you go the web site for fortress Input&output power manage columns add AC/generator should work On Sep 3, 2025, at 12:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Friends: I’m still learning this product. Neither the mobile or the web monitoring app will tell me when in the past the generator ran. This data is important to manage any off-grid system for maximum efficiency. I can see via the animated arrows when the gen is running but there is no data column for graphing or displaying generator history I called tech support and the person I spoke to can see generator history on his web-app but I can’t see it on my browser and I don’t have the column choice he has for generator graphing. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 18:49:26 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 16:49:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring generator on Envy app/web app In-Reply-To: <4c65a5c441f897b515275fbdc55c0f10@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c65a5c441f897b515275fbdc55c0f10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I dont think it will back populate. See if it works going forward jay > On Sep 3, 2025, at 4:42 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Jay: > > Thank you. I did find that column although on my browser it is spelled AC Couple/Gnerator. It shows zero all day long for days I know the generator ran. > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > From: jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com ] > Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2025 2:58 PM > To: William Miller; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring generator on Envy app/web app > > I believe if you go the web site for fortress > > Input&output power > > manage columns > > add > AC/generator > > should work > > > On Sep 3, 2025, at 12:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Friends: > > I’m still learning this product. Neither the mobile or the web monitoring app will tell me when in the past the generator ran. This data is important to manage any off-grid system for maximum efficiency. > > I can see via the animated arrows when the gen is running but there is no data column for graphing or displaying generator history > > I called tech support and the person I spoke to can see generator history on his web-app but I can’t see it on my browser and I don’t have the column choice he has for generator graphing. > > Any suggestions? Thanks in advance. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 18:50:14 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 16:50:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: this got me curious. Here is the only picture I can find of anything rated for fine strand distrubution block. Notice it has an extension on the bottom of the compression screw. Which I guess is keeping the find stands out of the threads. Nothing else I can find says it’s rated from fine strand. Happy to be proven wrong. jay https://www.hubbell.com/burndy/en/products/bdblcs7r1dw-large-flex-rated-power-distribution-block/p/8517004 > On Sep 3, 2025, at 3:56 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > IMO, any OEM that recommends a ferrule does not use fine-strand rated compression lugs in their equipment. > > Rated lugs do exist, they just don’t seem to be spec’ed by OEMs. > > I don’t like ferrules on battery cable and always use fine-stranded compression PDBs when building custom battery combiners. > > > > > <> > Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh at vermont.solar > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!! > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.559.1225 > > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 5:38 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> From my memory none of the compression lug style are rated for fine stand, at least without a ferrule. >> >> Because strands can get into the threads and bind, making it seam like its tight but its not. >> >> But I could be wrong >> >> >>> On Sep 3, 2025, at 2:39 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>> I've got to ask: Are none of the lugs on these Chinese inverters approved for fine strand cable? I just have not had a problem with that, but I've mostly used Magnum, Midnite, and Outback equipment over the years. What were the lugs on the old Trace DC 250 boxes? Were they fine strand rated? They sure were tough to get 4/0 into, as William mentioned. >>> >>> Ray >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> On 9/3/2025 12:57 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> William, >>>> >>>> If the only reason the ferrule wouldn't fit after using the hex crimper was the ridge left where the dies meet, you could rotate the cable 120 degrees and crimp the ferrule again. >>>> >>>> I doubt that the indenter crimper will do a decent job with large ferrules. >>>> >>>> I do like your thin piece of copper solution. Not UL approved but I dare say wrench approved. >>>> >>>> Kent Osterberg >>>> Blue Mountain Solar >>>> >>>> >>>> On 9/2/2025 8:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> Friends: >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for all of your input on this question. I feel it only right I report back how this turned out >>>>> >>>>> I tried a crimper like this: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. >>>>> >>>>> The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: >>>>> >>>>> This was suggested but I have not tried it either: >>>>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: apple-touch-icon.png Type: image/png Size: 651 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Sep 3 18:50:43 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 15:50:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: <127dc5a7b9a1623f12eadc2931db1dc5@mail.gmail.com> Friends: My understanding is if the lug has a set-screw that contacts the strands, fine strands can wind around the set screw, get into the threads and not tighten adequately. If you are crimping fine strands inside of some type of barrel your connection should be OK. I had been using Outback until they imploded and all of the battery connections were via studs or bolts that required crimped-on rings. Now I am back to set screw lugs and fine stranding became an issue again. I did try another experiment: I took a 4/0 ferrule that would not fit into the Envy lugs and snipped a section out of it. I curled it into a slightly smaller diameter and it fit into the lug. I suppose one could cut the ferrule in half longitudinally and insert a portion of the ferrule between the set screw and the strands. I am pleased with the copper sheeting wrapped around the fine strands. That will be my SOP. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, September 3, 2025 1:40 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Cc:* Ray Walters *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. I've got to ask: Are none of the lugs on these Chinese inverters approved for fine strand cable? I just have not had a problem with that, but I've mostly used Magnum, Midnite, and Outback equipment over the years. What were the lugs on the old Trace DC 250 boxes? Were they fine strand rated? They sure were tough to get 4/0 into, as William mentioned. Ray Remote Solar On 9/3/2025 12:57 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: William, If the only reason the ferrule wouldn't fit after using the hex crimper was the ridge left where the dies meet, you could rotate the cable 120 degrees and crimp the ferrule again. I doubt that the indenter crimper will do a decent job with large ferrules. I do like your thin piece of copper solution. Not UL approved but I dare say wrench approved. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 9/2/2025 8:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: Friends: Thank you for all of your input on this question. I feel it only right I report back how this turned out I tried a crimper like this: It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: This was suggested but I have not tried it either: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Sep 3 19:20:11 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 19:20:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Yep, mersen and marathon brands, have similar fine strand DLO ratings on some of their power terminal blocks. I’ve used both types before as I recall. I am traveling, but will try to post some spec sheets in the next few days. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 6:50 PM jay wrote: > this got me curious. > > Here is the only picture I can find of anything rated for fine strand > distrubution block. > Notice it has an extension on the bottom of the compression screw. Which > I guess is keeping the find stands out of the threads. > > > Nothing else I can find says it’s rated from fine strand. > > Happy to be proven wrong. > > jay > > hubbell.com > > [image: apple-touch-icon.png] > > > > > On Sep 3, 2025, at 3:56 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > IMO, any OEM that recommends a ferrule does not use fine-strand rated > compression lugs in their equipment. > > Rated lugs do exist, they just don’t seem to be spec’ed by OEMs. > > I don’t like ferrules on battery cable and always use fine-stranded > compression PDBs when building custom battery combiners. > > > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.559.1225 > > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 5:38 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> From my memory none of the compression lug style are rated for fine >> stand, at least without a ferrule. >> >> Because strands can get into the threads and bind, making it seam like >> its tight but its not. >> >> But I could be wrong >> >> >> On Sep 3, 2025, at 2:39 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> I've got to ask: Are none of the lugs on these Chinese inverters approved >> for fine strand cable? I just have not had a problem with that, but I've >> mostly used Magnum, Midnite, and Outback equipment over the years. What >> were the lugs on the old Trace DC 250 boxes? Were they fine strand rated? >> They sure were tough to get 4/0 into, as William mentioned. >> >> Ray >> Remote Solar >> On 9/3/2025 12:57 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> William, >> >> If the only reason the ferrule wouldn't fit after using the hex crimper >> was the ridge left where the dies meet, you could rotate the cable 120 >> degrees and crimp the ferrule again. >> >> I doubt that the indenter crimper will do a decent job with large >> ferrules. >> >> I do like your thin piece of copper solution. Not UL approved but I dare >> say wrench approved. >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 9/2/2025 8:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> >> Thank you for all of your input on this question. I feel it only right I >> report back how this turned out >> >> >> I tried a crimper like this: >> >> >> >> >> >> It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. >> >> >> The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: >> >> This was suggested but I have not tried it either: >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: apple-touch-icon.png Type: image/png Size: 651 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Wed Sep 3 19:33:22 2025 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 18:33:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: <127dc5a7b9a1623f12eadc2931db1dc5@mail.gmail.com> References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> <127dc5a7b9a1623f12eadc2931db1dc5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, None of the crimpers you sent photos of are for ferrules. Those are all lug crimpers. Some are barely that. Nobody should be seriously considering anything you hit with a hammer to be a proper tool for installing any type of connector. Ferrule crimpers produce a square crimp and do what they are supposed to. Last Wednesday I sent you a note with this link: https://www.ferrulesdirect.com/collections/hand-crimping-tools/products/vag240 It makes a square shape and won't have weird edges and the artifacts you mention you get when you smoosh a ferrule with a non-ferrule crimper. Ferrules are highly useful and reliable when installed correctly. You just need the right tool. The other thing I mentioned last week were pin adapters. They are crimp on fittings that are rated for fine stranded wire and they convert it to course stranded or solid shape. Here was the example I sent: https://www.ilsco.com/Ilsco/ccrz__ProductDetails?sku=F2C-1%2F0-1%2F0-ILSM-ILS&cclcl=en_US Best regards, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 6:10 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > My understanding is if the lug has a set-screw that contacts the strands, > fine strands can wind around the set screw, get into the threads and not > tighten adequately. If you are crimping fine strands inside of some type > of barrel your connection should be OK. > > > > I had been using Outback until they imploded and all of the battery > connections were via studs or bolts that required crimped-on rings. Now I > am back to set screw lugs and fine stranding became an issue again. > > > > I did try another experiment: I took a 4/0 ferrule that would not fit into > the Envy lugs and snipped a section out of it. I curled it into a slightly > smaller diameter and it fit into the lug. I suppose one could cut the > ferrule in half longitudinally and insert a portion of the ferrule between > the set screw and the strands. > > > > I am pleased with the copper sheeting wrapped around the fine strands. > That will be my SOP. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 3, 2025 1:40 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Cc:* Ray Walters > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. > > > > I've got to ask: Are none of the lugs on these Chinese inverters approved > for fine strand cable? I just have not had a problem with that, but I've > mostly used Magnum, Midnite, and Outback equipment over the years. What > were the lugs on the old Trace DC 250 boxes? Were they fine strand rated? > They sure were tough to get 4/0 into, as William mentioned. > > Ray > Remote Solar > > On 9/3/2025 12:57 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > > William, > > If the only reason the ferrule wouldn't fit after using the hex crimper > was the ridge left where the dies meet, you could rotate the cable 120 > degrees and crimp the ferrule again. > > I doubt that the indenter crimper will do a decent job with large ferrules. > > I do like your thin piece of copper solution. Not UL approved but I dare > say wrench approved. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > > On 9/2/2025 8:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > > > Thank you for all of your input on this question. I feel it only right I > report back how this turned out > > > > I tried a crimper like this: > > > > > > > > It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. > > > > The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: > > > > This was suggested but I have not tried it either: > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 19:45:08 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 17:45:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> <127dc5a7b9a1623f12eadc2931db1dc5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I went out to my shop and tried my 3/0 ferrule on 4/0 cobra wire. It fit. The sleeve that goes over the insulation won’t fit. But that could be cut off. Just a thought Jay > On Sep 3, 2025, at 5:33 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > William, > > None of the crimpers you sent photos of are for ferrules. Those are all lug crimpers. Some are barely that. Nobody should be seriously considering anything you hit with a hammer to be a proper tool for installing any type of connector. > > Ferrule crimpers produce a square crimp and do what they are supposed to. > > Last Wednesday I sent you a note with this link: > https://www.ferrulesdirect.com/collections/hand-crimping-tools/products/vag240 > > It makes a square shape and won't have weird edges and the artifacts you mention you get when you smoosh a ferrule with a non-ferrule crimper. > > Ferrules are highly useful and reliable when installed correctly. You just need the right tool. > > The other thing I mentioned last week were pin adapters. They are crimp on fittings that are rated for fine stranded wire and they convert it to course stranded or solid shape. Here was the example I sent: > https://www.ilsco.com/Ilsco/ccrz__ProductDetails?sku=F2C-1%2F0-1%2F0-ILSM-ILS&cclcl=en_US > > > > > Best regards, > > > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 6:10 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Friends: >> >> >> My understanding is if the lug has a set-screw that contacts the strands, fine strands can wind around the set screw, get into the threads and not tighten adequately. If you are crimping fine strands inside of some type of barrel your connection should be OK. >> >> >> I had been using Outback until they imploded and all of the battery connections were via studs or bolts that required crimped-on rings. Now I am back to set screw lugs and fine stranding became an issue again. >> >> >> I did try another experiment: I took a 4/0 ferrule that would not fit into the Envy lugs and snipped a section out of it. I curled it into a slightly smaller diameter and it fit into the lug. I suppose one could cut the ferrule in half longitudinally and insert a portion of the ferrule between the set screw and the strands. >> >> >> I am pleased with the copper sheeting wrapped around the fine strands. That will be my SOP. >> >> >> William >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2025 1:40 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Cc: Ray Walters >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. >> >> >> I've got to ask: Are none of the lugs on these Chinese inverters approved for fine strand cable? I just have not had a problem with that, but I've mostly used Magnum, Midnite, and Outback equipment over the years. What were the lugs on the old Trace DC 250 boxes? Were they fine strand rated? They sure were tough to get 4/0 into, as William mentioned. >> >> Ray >> Remote Solar >> >> On 9/3/2025 12:57 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> William, >> >> If the only reason the ferrule wouldn't fit after using the hex crimper was the ridge left where the dies meet, you could rotate the cable 120 degrees and crimp the ferrule again. >> >> I doubt that the indenter crimper will do a decent job with large ferrules. >> >> I do like your thin piece of copper solution. Not UL approved but I dare say wrench approved. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 9/2/2025 8:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> >> Thank you for all of your input on this question. I feel it only right I report back how this turned out >> >> >> I tried a crimper like this: >> >> >> >> >> It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. >> >> >> The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: >> >> >> This was suggested but I have not tried it either: >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com Wed Sep 3 20:02:06 2025 From: tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com (Tom McCalmont) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 17:02:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> <127dc5a7b9a1623f12eadc2931db1dc5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2A86E5FB-86A4-4F18-88AF-15B1F34D775D@pairedpower.com> I’ve been monitoring this thread with interest and wanted to add some perspective since we have experience with this. Listed lugs in combination with DLO cable are a good solution for connecting batteries to inverters. The DLO cables are much more flexible at large wire sizes typical of battery cables, and listed lugs provide a safe method to connect the cables to the inverter that assures you will not lose strands in the connection. Because DLO cable contains many strands and there is some amount of open space between those strands, the overall diameter of the DLO for a given gauge is higher than it will be for equivalent sized stranded THWN. Therefore, you need to locate lugs that are appropriately sized specifically for DLO cable. In addition, many of the crimping devices that I’ve seen pass through the group for attaching the lugs will not result in a listed connection, and they could create fire risk. Screw lugs may not tighten appropriately on the fine strands of DLO as one commenter mentioned. Hammer-type crimping tools may work to result in what feels like a firm connection, but there is no way to judge that you have hammered with the exact appropriate force to result in a listed connection. The only sure-fire way to do so is with an over-center crimping tool that is listed for the purpose of attaching the specific lug you have selected to the cable type of a matching size. These tools are very expensive, and I understand the pain of having to purchase the correct one. We are all tempted by cheaper options. But the pain of that one-time expense is likely to be much less than the pain of compensating a very unhappy customer following a fire started by a substandard connection. As we all know, battery cables carry a lot of current, and substandard connections are much more likely to create fire risk than would be the case for high voltage, low current connections. I hope this voice of experience is helpful! Tom McCalmont, P.E. CEO, Paired Power pairedpower.com | LinkedIn Direct: (669) 877-2931 You're Invited: Join us on Sept. 18th for a webinar conversation on how Intuit has deployed Paired Power’s AI-driven solar microgrid system to add EV chargers at scale without new grid capacity, eliminating demand charges and revolutionizing the future of electric vehicle (EV) charging. Register Now: https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_PEkYGlNuRfigHBWjtiec0A#/registration > On Sep 3, 2025, at 4:33 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > William, > > None of the crimpers you sent photos of are for ferrules. Those are all lug crimpers. Some are barely that. Nobody should be seriously considering anything you hit with a hammer to be a proper tool for installing any type of connector. > > Ferrule crimpers produce a square crimp and do what they are supposed to. > > Last Wednesday I sent you a note with this link: > https://www.ferrulesdirect.com/collections/hand-crimping-tools/products/vag240 > > It makes a square shape and won't have weird edges and the artifacts you mention you get when you smoosh a ferrule with a non-ferrule crimper. > > Ferrules are highly useful and reliable when installed correctly. You just need the right tool. > > The other thing I mentioned last week were pin adapters. They are crimp on fittings that are rated for fine stranded wire and they convert it to course stranded or solid shape. Here was the example I sent: > https://www.ilsco.com/Ilsco/ccrz__ProductDetails?sku=F2C-1%2F0-1%2F0-ILSM-ILS&cclcl=en_US > > > > > Best regards, > > > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 6:10 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Friends: >> >> >> My understanding is if the lug has a set-screw that contacts the strands, fine strands can wind around the set screw, get into the threads and not tighten adequately. If you are crimping fine strands inside of some type of barrel your connection should be OK. >> >> >> I had been using Outback until they imploded and all of the battery connections were via studs or bolts that required crimped-on rings. Now I am back to set screw lugs and fine stranding became an issue again. >> >> >> I did try another experiment: I took a 4/0 ferrule that would not fit into the Envy lugs and snipped a section out of it. I curled it into a slightly smaller diameter and it fit into the lug. I suppose one could cut the ferrule in half longitudinally and insert a portion of the ferrule between the set screw and the strands. >> >> >> I am pleased with the copper sheeting wrapped around the fine strands. That will be my SOP. >> >> >> William >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2025 1:40 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Cc: Ray Walters >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. >> >> >> I've got to ask: Are none of the lugs on these Chinese inverters approved for fine strand cable? I just have not had a problem with that, but I've mostly used Magnum, Midnite, and Outback equipment over the years. What were the lugs on the old Trace DC 250 boxes? Were they fine strand rated? They sure were tough to get 4/0 into, as William mentioned. >> >> Ray >> Remote Solar >> >> On 9/3/2025 12:57 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> William, >> >> If the only reason the ferrule wouldn't fit after using the hex crimper was the ridge left where the dies meet, you could rotate the cable 120 degrees and crimp the ferrule again. >> >> I doubt that the indenter crimper will do a decent job with large ferrules. >> >> I do like your thin piece of copper solution. Not UL approved but I dare say wrench approved. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 9/2/2025 8:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> >> Thank you for all of your input on this question. I feel it only right I report back how this turned out >> >> >> I tried a crimper like this: >> >> >> >> >> It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. >> >> >> The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: >> >> >> This was suggested but I have not tried it either: >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Wed Sep 3 20:34:37 2025 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 00:34:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: <2A86E5FB-86A4-4F18-88AF-15B1F34D775D@pairedpower.com> References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> <127dc5a7b9a1623f12eadc2931db1dc5@mail.gmail.com> <2A86E5FB-86A4-4F18-88AF-15B1F34D775D@pairedpower.com> Message-ID: We have built DLO battery cables assemblies and have had a couple installations flagged by inspectors due to not having UL requirements (83 and 1581 if I remember correctly). We mostly build battery assemblies with the two class K options - All-Flex or X-Flex Here are a list of the UL certifications between the two: DLO cable (24AWG ASTM Class) EPDM/CPE Insulation -40°C - +90°C     UL 44 1650 2556 2806 Cobra X-Flex and Direct Wire All-Flex (30AWG ASTM -Class-K) PVC insulation -50°C – 75°C (Wet) / 105°C (Dry)     UL 83 758 1063 1232 1283 1284 1337 1338 1339 1426 1581 1581 2556 2556 10070 10269 Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Tom McCalmont via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2025 5:02 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Tom McCalmont Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. I’ve been monitoring this thread with interest and wanted to add some perspective since we have experience with this. Listed lugs in combination with DLO cable are a good solution for connecting batteries to inverters. The DLO cables are much more flexible at large wire sizes typical of battery cables, and listed lugs provide a safe method to connect the cables to the inverter that assures you will not lose strands in the connection. Because DLO cable contains many strands and there is some amount of open space between those strands, the overall diameter of the DLO for a given gauge is higher than it will be for equivalent sized stranded THWN. Therefore, you need to locate lugs that are appropriately sized specifically for DLO cable. In addition, many of the crimping devices that I’ve seen pass through the group for attaching the lugs will not result in a listed connection, and they could create fire risk. Screw lugs may not tighten appropriately on the fine strands of DLO as one commenter mentioned. Hammer-type crimping tools may work to result in what feels like a firm connection, but there is no way to judge that you have hammered with the exact appropriate force to result in a listed connection. The only sure-fire way to do so is with an over-center crimping tool that is listed for the purpose of attaching the specific lug you have selected to the cable type of a matching size. These tools are very expensive, and I understand the pain of having to purchase the correct one. We are all tempted by cheaper options. But the pain of that one-time expense is likely to be much less than the pain of compensating a very unhappy customer following a fire started by a substandard connection. As we all know, battery cables carry a lot of current, and substandard connections are much more likely to create fire risk than would be the case for high voltage, low current connections. I hope this voice of experience is helpful! Tom McCalmont, P.E. CEO, Paired Power pairedpower.com | LinkedIn Direct: (669) 877-2931 You're Invited: Join us on Sept. 18th for a webinar conversation on how Intuit has deployed Paired Power’s AI-driven solar microgrid system to add EV chargers at scale without new grid capacity, eliminating demand charges and revolutionizing the future of electric vehicle (EV) charging. [https://pairedpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/08/webinar.png] Register Now: https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_PEkYGlNuRfigHBWjtiec0A#/registration On Sep 3, 2025, at 4:33 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches wrote: William, None of the crimpers you sent photos of are for ferrules. Those are all lug crimpers. Some are barely that. Nobody should be seriously considering anything you hit with a hammer to be a proper tool for installing any type of connector. Ferrule crimpers produce a square crimp and do what they are supposed to. Last Wednesday I sent you a note with this link: https://www.ferrulesdirect.com/collections/hand-crimping-tools/products/vag240 It makes a square shape and won't have weird edges and the artifacts you mention you get when you smoosh a ferrule with a non-ferrule crimper. Ferrules are highly useful and reliable when installed correctly. You just need the right tool. The other thing I mentioned last week were pin adapters. They are crimp on fittings that are rated for fine stranded wire and they convert it to course stranded or solid shape. Here was the example I sent: https://www.ilsco.com/Ilsco/ccrz__ProductDetails?sku=F2C-1%2F0-1%2F0-ILSM-ILS&cclcl=en_US Best regards, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 6:10 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Friends: My understanding is if the lug has a set-screw that contacts the strands, fine strands can wind around the set screw, get into the threads and not tighten adequately. If you are crimping fine strands inside of some type of barrel your connection should be OK. I had been using Outback until they imploded and all of the battery connections were via studs or bolts that required crimped-on rings. Now I am back to set screw lugs and fine stranding became an issue again. I did try another experiment: I took a 4/0 ferrule that would not fit into the Envy lugs and snipped a section out of it. I curled it into a slightly smaller diameter and it fit into the lug. I suppose one could cut the ferrule in half longitudinally and insert a portion of the ferrule between the set screw and the strands. I am pleased with the copper sheeting wrapped around the fine strands. That will be my SOP. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2025 1:40 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Ray Walters Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. I've got to ask: Are none of the lugs on these Chinese inverters approved for fine strand cable? I just have not had a problem with that, but I've mostly used Magnum, Midnite, and Outback equipment over the years. What were the lugs on the old Trace DC 250 boxes? Were they fine strand rated? They sure were tough to get 4/0 into, as William mentioned. Ray Remote Solar On 9/3/2025 12:57 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: William, If the only reason the ferrule wouldn't fit after using the hex crimper was the ridge left where the dies meet, you could rotate the cable 120 degrees and crimp the ferrule again. I doubt that the indenter crimper will do a decent job with large ferrules. I do like your thin piece of copper solution. Not UL approved but I dare say wrench approved. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 9/2/2025 8:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: Friends: Thank you for all of your input on this question. I feel it only right I report back how this turned out I tried a crimper like this: It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: This was suggested but I have not tried it either: _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Wed Sep 3 20:42:57 2025 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 17:42:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: I've used the yellow hex crimper you showed in the picture. I found that if I did two crimps, rotating between each crimp and not completely bottoming out the first crimp, I didn't get "wings". Eric Smiley, Design Manager Viridian Solar 250.703.6004 On Wed, Sep 3, 2025, 11:57 Kent via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > William, > > If the only reason the ferrule wouldn't fit after using the hex crimper > was the ridge left where the dies meet, you could rotate the cable 120 > degrees and crimp the ferrule again. > > I doubt that the indenter crimper will do a decent job with large ferrules. > > I do like your thin piece of copper solution. Not UL approved but I dare > say wrench approved. > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 9/2/2025 8:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > > > Thank you for all of your input on this question. I feel it only right I > report back how this turned out > > > > I tried a crimper like this: > > > > > > [image: HYCLAT 10 Tons Hydraulic Crimping Tool Battery Cable Lug Terminal > Crimper with 9 Pairs of Dies, 12 AWG to 2/0 AWG Wire Crimping Tool] > > It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. > > > > The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: > > [image: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/716TxXmojoL._SL1500_.jpg] > > This was suggested but I have not tried it either: > > [image: image0.png] > > > > I had tried a similar crimper to the two above but it expanded the width > of the ferrule beyond what the lug would accept. > > > > Here is what several of you suggested: Slip the ferrule over the strands > and insert it into the lug and let the set screw do the crimping for you. > We tried this but the 4/0 ferrule when not crimped would not fit into the > battery lug on a fortress Envy 12. The Envy 12 installation manual > indicates a wire range of 1/0 to 3/0 and the placard inside the wire > compartment door says up to 4/0. The lug seems tight for 4/0. > > > > Here is what we did: Back in the days of the Trace DC250 (maybe 1988-ish) > we had trouble wrangling all of the strands of a fine-stranded 4/0 battery > cable to all fit in the lug without a bunch of strands poking out. I found > some thin (~35 gauge) copper sheet at a local hobby shop. I would clean > and polish it shiny and cut a little strip of the sheet slightly wider than > the strip length and long enough to wrap about 1-1/4 times around the > strand. I would wrap it tightly around the strands and hold it temporarily > in place with a thin cable tie. I bent the end of the sheet into a > chamfered shape to help guide the assembly into the lug. After I got it > started I would snip the cable tie, fully insert the cable and tighten the > set screw. I never had one of these connections fail. This is what we did > on the Envy 12 battery cables. > > > > The next day we removed all of the set screws and inspected the > connections. They all looked great: The copper sheeting had not twisted, > it had a nice, shapely dimple and, peaking up into the lug, the cable > looked to be well seated. > > > > I hope this feedback helps someone, someday. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26697 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9735 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 97595 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26697 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 97595 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9735 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 21:19:36 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 19:19:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567211C6-CEEA-418D-8078-E48F0899CAA0@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Sep 4 01:23:10 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2025 22:23:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> <127dc5a7b9a1623f12eadc2931db1dc5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1fa252b9a82e16c32d99e0b62d45d3ce@mail.gmail.com> James: Sorry I forgot to include the fine option you introduced. Thank you for the reminder. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* James Jarvis [mailto:jj at aprsworld.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, September 3, 2025 4:33 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. William, None of the crimpers you sent photos of are for ferrules. Those are all lug crimpers. Some are barely that. Nobody should be seriously considering anything you hit with a hammer to be a proper tool for installing any type of connector. Ferrule crimpers produce a square crimp and do what they are supposed to. Last Wednesday I sent you a note with this link: https://www.ferrulesdirect.com/collections/hand-crimping-tools/products/vag240 It makes a square shape and won't have weird edges and the artifacts you mention you get when you smoosh a ferrule with a non-ferrule crimper. Ferrules are highly useful and reliable when installed correctly. You just need the right tool. The other thing I mentioned last week were pin adapters. They are crimp on fittings that are rated for fine stranded wire and they convert it to course stranded or solid shape. Here was the example I sent: https://www.ilsco.com/Ilsco/ccrz__ProductDetails?sku=F2C-1%2F0-1%2F0-ILSM-ILS&cclcl=en_US Best regards, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 6:10 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Friends: My understanding is if the lug has a set-screw that contacts the strands, fine strands can wind around the set screw, get into the threads and not tighten adequately. If you are crimping fine strands inside of some type of barrel your connection should be OK. I had been using Outback until they imploded and all of the battery connections were via studs or bolts that required crimped-on rings. Now I am back to set screw lugs and fine stranding became an issue again. I did try another experiment: I took a 4/0 ferrule that would not fit into the Envy lugs and snipped a section out of it. I curled it into a slightly smaller diameter and it fit into the lug. I suppose one could cut the ferrule in half longitudinally and insert a portion of the ferrule between the set screw and the strands. I am pleased with the copper sheeting wrapped around the fine strands. That will be my SOP. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, September 3, 2025 1:40 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Cc:* Ray Walters *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. I've got to ask: Are none of the lugs on these Chinese inverters approved for fine strand cable? I just have not had a problem with that, but I've mostly used Magnum, Midnite, and Outback equipment over the years. What were the lugs on the old Trace DC 250 boxes? Were they fine strand rated? They sure were tough to get 4/0 into, as William mentioned. Ray Remote Solar On 9/3/2025 12:57 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: William, If the only reason the ferrule wouldn't fit after using the hex crimper was the ridge left where the dies meet, you could rotate the cable 120 degrees and crimp the ferrule again. I doubt that the indenter crimper will do a decent job with large ferrules. I do like your thin piece of copper solution. Not UL approved but I dare say wrench approved. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 9/2/2025 8:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: Friends: Thank you for all of your input on this question. I feel it only right I report back how this turned out I tried a crimper like this: It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: This was suggested but I have not tried it either: _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 14:35:30 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 11:35:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Single Junction box modules Message-ID: Greetings wrenches, I am looking for recommendations for modules around the 400w ish range.. Ideally 42" wide or less with a single j box. What new mods are you guys installing? Historically we've used LG and Silfab. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I can't imagine we're the only ones resistant to the new common sizes/split cell options. Thank you in advance. Sunny Regards, Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 14:43:40 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 12:43:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Single Junction box modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15FFBA9C-BB20-4464-8098-72FBCCE3F964@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 14:51:53 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 11:51:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Single Junction box modules In-Reply-To: <15FFBA9C-BB20-4464-8098-72FBCCE3F964@gmail.com> References: <15FFBA9C-BB20-4464-8098-72FBCCE3F964@gmail.com> Message-ID: Size and wire management. We use SnapNRack so...172" rails...also for TPM racks...43"+ wide sucks for trying to engineer 12 panel racks, Obviously not as easy for one guy to carry newer mods, etc. On Thu, Sep 4, 2025, 11:44 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Why are you against the split cell panels? > > Jay > > On Sep 4, 2025, at 12:36 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Greetings wrenches, > I am looking for recommendations for modules around the 400w ish range.. > Ideally 42" wide or less with a single j box. > What new mods are you guys installing? > Historically we've used LG and Silfab. Any suggestions would > be appreciated. I can't imagine we're the only ones resistant to the new > common sizes/split cell options. Thank you in advance. > Sunny Regards, > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Thu Sep 4 16:18:04 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 13:18:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] half cut PV modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I still have a source for 120 half-cut qcells (365 watts), if it's only a few pallets you're looking for. Supply has gotten way harder this summer compared to this spring -- at the moment Hyundai bifacial 440s are the only mods my main distributor even has any more -- this spring they had about 6 options in stock. Seems like almost all the manufacturers have gone to the 108 half cell mods this last year for resi modules, which of course are 45" wide instead of 41" -- meaning all new racking lengths and layouts and harder to carry and all. I still remember the switch from the 72 cell 5" cells to the 60 cell 6" cells and how we complained about that increase in width. For wire management on the half cut modules on groundmounts, what I've done on some recently is run a third rail right behind the center of the module, so all the wires neatly tuck into the rail (when using a C-channel type rail). I'm also usually designing for 170 to 180mph wind zone, so doing a third rail is not really overkill. If in a lower wind zone, it might be a bit extra cost to do three rails instead of 2. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Sep 4 16:18:16 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 13:18:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Single Junction box modules In-Reply-To: <15FFBA9C-BB20-4464-8098-72FBCCE3F964@gmail.com> References: <15FFBA9C-BB20-4464-8098-72FBCCE3F964@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6666dea4d41f219b5ba0594b83982516@mail.gmail.com> Jay: I can’t speak for Tyrone but I hate the half-cut, dual connection-box panels. Here is a web-page I created to explain why they suck. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jay via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Thursday, September 4, 2025 11:44 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jay *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Single Junction box modules Why are you against the split cell panels? Jay On Sep 4, 2025, at 12:36 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Greetings wrenches, I am looking for recommendations for modules around the 400w ish range.. Ideally 42" wide or less with a single j box. What new mods are you guys installing? Historically we've used LG and Silfab. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I can't imagine we're the only ones resistant to the new common sizes/split cell options. Thank you in advance. Sunny Regards, Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 16:31:49 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 13:31:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Single Junction box modules In-Reply-To: <6666dea4d41f219b5ba0594b83982516@mail.gmail.com> References: <15FFBA9C-BB20-4464-8098-72FBCCE3F964@gmail.com> <6666dea4d41f219b5ba0594b83982516@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Absolutely! Wire management is a crucial consideration too! On Thu, Sep 4, 2025, 1:29 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jay: > > > > I can’t speak for Tyrone but I hate the half-cut, dual connection-box > panels. Here > > is a web-page I created to explain why they suck. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jay via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, September 4, 2025 11:44 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jay > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Single Junction box modules > > > > Why are you against the split cell panels? > > > > Jay > > > > On Sep 4, 2025, at 12:36 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Greetings wrenches, > > I am looking for recommendations for modules around the 400w ish range.. > > Ideally 42" wide or less with a single j box. > > What new mods are you guys installing? > > Historically we've used LG and Silfab. Any suggestions would > be appreciated. I can't imagine we're the only ones resistant to the new > common sizes/split cell options. Thank you in advance. > > Sunny Regards, > > > > Tyrone Houck > > Oregon Solarworks LLC > > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > > 541-787-1366 > > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Sep 4 17:52:21 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 17:52:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 v HomeGrid battery systems update? In-Reply-To: References: <39347efd-d84c-4769-b41e-283d30a414df@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Ok, I have some information about the latest shutdown of HomeGrid. I just went out to the island today and spent the entire day resolving the issue (hopefully). First, I want to clearly state how incredibly knowledgeable, helpful, and patient HomeGrid technical support was today (shout out to Armando Rolden). I was lucky enough to have all of the right cables with me, and the EMS Tools preloaded on my Windows laptop, and we worked together to diagnose and resolve things. I'll cut to the chase: there were two potential issues that might have caused the shutdowns. 1. On one stack of batteries we had previously bypassed a pack (HomeGrid calls the individual batteries a pack). This was months ago and we did it because somehow it became out of balance, meaning one of the 15 cells internally had a significantly lower voltage. We do not know why this happened, but presumably it was not being cycled enough to 100%, which HomeGrid insists is absolutely necessary to prevent issues like this. The moral of the story: don't undersize a PV array with HomeGrid, or at least have an auxiliary charging source to get batteries to 100% at least weekly. I seriously doubt this was the reason for the recent shutdowns because we had been running two uneven stacks for months (one with 7 and one with 8) without any issues. 2. We added a stack of 8 to the original two stacks a month ago. For three weeks, everything worked fine. Then we started getting these random shutdowns. We discovered today that four of the eight packs had a different software version. This is the more likely reason, in my opinion, that we experienced issues. Incidentally, the shutdowns always happened when the batteries were at 100% for a few hours. This points to issues with differing charge limits between the different software versions according to HomeGrid. So where does this leave me? I'm hopeful that the software updates and manual rebalancing of the unbalanced pack will resolve the issues at this site. But it reiterates that these sytems are not ideal for off-grid applications when issues like these can take down the whole system. And I was fortunate that the property was unoccupied today, because I had to shut down the system many times. We had to un-parallel stacks, reconfigure things, and re-parallel at the end. I did not have a generator functional at the time, so I could not keep power on to the home, so we lost Internet, which made remote support difficult. We had to run off of one stack for a while to make it happen, so that also required some reconfiguring. All of this takes a LOT of time. As I said, I spent all day on this. Part of the problem was that I called HomeGrid at 9:00 am EST and didn't get a call back until 11:00 am, but I had already left the site! I had to turn the boat around to go back. I didn't know how long it was going to take, so I wasn't going to wait all day, but fortunately they caught me in time. The bottom line is I think HomeGrid has a good product. When it works, it works. But the premium price and the off-grid resilience and serviceability issues make it unsuitable for my applications. If issues persist at this site, I am going to have to run the three stacks in open-loop. That will not help the intra-stack issues, but it might help with redundancy by keeping two of three stacks going in the event of a fault. Of course, there are serious downsides to this, given that the SOC estimating from Sol-Ark is poor and Voltage mode will need to be used for the AGS as a result. I really hope that the system will keep humming along, but I'm sure it is only a matter of time before I'm called back out. Finally, I also need to backtrack on something I said before. You CAN connect to individual battery packs with a computer and use the HomeGrid EMS Tools. It requires a differnet RS232-USB cable with a RJ11 connector on one end. It allows you to monitor the battery pack in real time, but not perform updates (which requires RS485). However, the battery pack has to be turned on, and if it is in a stack and has a fault, the stack will probably error out and not function as a result. So the same problem exists in that you can't service a pack within a stack while the rest of the stack functions normally. P.S. If you work with HomeGrid with EMS Tools, make sure you record the password for the software interface for future reference. If you can't reach HomeGrid, you will need it to even open up the software. It's not a standard default password. I hope this helps others! Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 1:18 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Nothing like a coincidence... > > A client on an island with three stacks of 8 HomeGrid batteries has just > called me to report that the entire system is down. All of the battery BMS > module displays are dark. I have mySolArk data from three inverters there > that show the batteries were topped off and just idling along with solar > covering the load at 5:00 pm last night when the power suddenly went out, > killing the Starlink connection. I'm going for a boat ride tomorrow to > check it out. Ugh. > > I will report my findings. Not sure if it's a battery or inverter issue, > but the customer's handyman reported nothing on the battery screens, which > seems strange to me. Even an error should not turn the display off, as far > as I recall. > > P.S. No power loss notifications from Sol-Ark is a frustrating loss of > functionality. I heard a rumor on Facebook that they are fixing this > in mySolArk this month, but I'm not holding my breath. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 4:31 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> We have some stacks of HomeGrid out there in various capacities, from the >> smallest with five in a stack, up to four fully populated stacks of eight. >> In total, I oversee around 150 Stack'd batteries, including many that I >> installed and some that were installed by others. I will say that they are >> easy to install, have a nice bold visual interface, look good, and perform >> up to expectations. They communicate flawlessly with Sol-Ark 15k. However... >> >> I believe there is a fundamental design flaw in this stackable battery >> architecture. Here is why I am no longer offering HomeGrid in a nutshell: >> >> - When one battery in a stack has a fault, the entire stack faults >> out, which renders the stack non-functional until you either: >> 1. Remove the battery from the stack or turn the circuit breaker >> off, and: >> 2. Reconfigure all of the dip switches to remove the battery from >> the communication loop, then: >> 3. Reprogram the master BMS to recognize the new stack members and >> their positions. >> - If you have multiple stacks, you have to do all of the above, and >> in addition: >> 1. Remove a battery from each additional stack to balance them, >> then perform all of the above steps on each stack. >> 2. But before you reprogram each master BMS you have to take the >> stacks out of parallel communication, then reprogram the parallel stacks >> before operation again. >> 3. Making each stack equal is per HomeGrid support, but in >> practice, I don't know if it is necessary, especially if you are losing one >> of eight (12.5%). If you have smaller stacks, this might be a bigger issue. >> - To diagnose a battery issue with a laptop and cable and get >> warranty support, you can only do that with the master BMS because each >> battery does not have a comm port. That means you have to have the entire >> stack non-functional while you perform diagnostics, which is not ideal for >> off-grid settings, especially if there is only one stack. >> - If a battery fails to balance and becomes depleted, causing a >> fault, there are no simple terminal bolts to connect an external charger. >> I'm not sure how you would even accomplish a manual charge without opening >> up the case. >> >> The EG4 server rack batteries work in a fundamentally different way. Each >> battery has an independent BMS. When there is an alarm in a stack or stacks >> of batteries, the entire battery bank does not fault out. You can >> physically take a battery out of the stack without changing any dip >> switches on the other batteries. You can shut one down or experience >> a fault on one battery without any others shutting down. I have tried this >> with the LifePower4 batteries, even when there are multiple communication >> strings of 16 batteries connected to a communication hub. The rest of the >> batteries just keep on working, which is the way it should be! The >> communication hub will just show zero values for the battery that is >> missing from the stack. I cannot confirm if this is the case with the LL >> batteries, but I suspect it would be. In a way, this is like having the >> batteries in an open loop in terms of resilience, with all of the benefits >> that closed-loop battery communications offers. I have had a small variety >> of battery issues with EG4, and not once has the whole bank of batteries >> been affected by one battery's issue. >> >> Side note about another server rack option: I can confirm that Pytes Ebox >> V1 batteries in a communication stack will shut down all batteries if one >> has a fault, at least confirmed by one situation I had. This is despite >> each battery having it's own BMS and console port to communicate with the >> batteries. The situation in my case was a battery that had no "Barcode" >> programmed into it, which was causing a parallel communication fault and >> shutting down the whole stack. In this case, physically bypassing the >> battery with the issue with a Cat5 coupling worked fine. There are no dip >> switches to set, and the master battery reconfigures the communication >> stack automatically. With Pytes' support, I was able to manually code in >> the Barcode to the BMS with a console cable, and the problem went away. I >> am not sure if all varieties of faults would have the same effect with >> Pytes EBoxes, but this communication issue definitely caused the whole >> stack to fault out. >> >> >> The phenomenon of the new breed of LFP batteries lacking >> reliability/redundancy inspired a blog post that I did just a couple of >> weeks ago: >> https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/homegrid-stackd-batteries-the-redundancy-fallacy >> >> >> A couple of other notes on HomeGrid: >> >> - They do not have any way to connect conduit to the BMS. You >> wouldn't want to anyway, especially with rigid conduit, since you might >> need to remove the BMS for service. The BMS should be at the bottom, in my >> opinion, for this reason. You can only run positive and negative battery >> cables out of the provided strain relief glands in free air, and it >> requires that the batteries be about 4 inches away from the wall. There is >> no suitable way to protect 100% of the battery cables. >> - Along the same lines, if you ever plan to expand the system, make >> sure you leave enough battery cable length to reach a higher level. >> - The lack of busbars is a really nice feature (until you get into >> larger systems). >> - The discharge rate supports the maximum input for a Sol-Ark 15K >> with, I believe, just three batteries. >> - I love their "busbar pair" designed specifically for the Sol-Ark >> 15K. I order a pair with every inverter, regardless of what battery I am >> using (although I am not actively selling Sol-Ark right now). >> - You can't monitor the condition of individual batteries with Solar >> Assistant, or any other tool remotely to my knowledge. You can't even >> monitor the condition of paralleled stacks. >> - The "app" for the batteries is mind-bendingly useless – unless I'm >> really missing something. >> - For some firmware and hardware versions, over-the-air updates are >> not possible, and HomeGrid will need to send you an update tool. To be >> fair, I think this is also the case with EG4 and some other manufacturers. >> - Once we received a shipment where three of eight batteries were in >> the right boxes, but there were no guts in the batteries at all! It was >> just an empty steel battery shell. We had to send them back to our >> supplier. The boxes actually said 13 Kg on the labels rather than 52 Kg, >> but nobody at the factory caught it. Strange. >> - HomeGrid Support is very competent, I would say among the best in >> terms of knowing their products inside and out, but it's 50/50 whether I >> get someone on the phone or get a call back in a timely manner that allows >> me to complete a service call. They are willing to schedule assistance if >> you have an off-grid situation that requires help. >> >> >> Is this a vote for EG4? Not necessarily, but it's hard to argue with the >> price and the superior reliability/redundancy aspects of the LifePower4/LL >> batteries. One battery fault should not shut down an entire system unless >> there is a legitimate safety hazard. It's possible that these are UL issues >> that require system shutdowns, but EG4 appears to have overcome the >> problems I've seen with other manufacturers' products. >> >> Like others mentioned, I prefer to go with the 14.3 kWh / 16 kWh sealed >> batteries. I feel they have better build quality (other than my recent rant >> about rust on the MNP PowerFlo16), and keeping components sealed up better >> just makes sense to me, especially in challenging environments. Of course, >> if you want more modularity in terms of expansion options and less impact >> if a single unit goes down, 5 kWh units might be a better option. There is >> no right or wrong option, I guess – sometimes it just comes down to >> priorities, space, mounting options, and price. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 10:41 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Wrenches, I went through the archives and read the comparison between >>> these two. The HomeGrid manual was in such a mess (or my pdf reader was >>> defunct), that I started looking at other options. If anyone has a >>> strong opinion of either of these two, or something better, I would >>> appreciate. We traditionally install small systems, and this would be >>> one (@15kWh). I would prefer to use a racking system with the BMS as >>> part of the packaging. Solark 12kPV multimode. Thank you, Chris >>> >>> -- >>> Christopher Warfel, PE >>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>> (401) 447-5773 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 18:38:57 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 15:38:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24v lifepo4 options Message-ID: Hey Wrenches, Looking to see what others experiences ate with available 24v lithium iron phosphate options.. any favorites or go-to's? I have used simpliphi in the past with mixed results and am considering either Victron smart battery or Rubix Stacked series for this job. Would love any feedback in these or other options. Thanks in advance! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump3391 at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 18:53:07 2025 From: tump3391 at gmail.com (Blair May) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 18:53:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: <1fa252b9a82e16c32d99e0b62d45d3ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> <127dc5a7b9a1623f12eadc2931db1dc5@mail.gmail.com> <1fa252b9a82e16c32d99e0b62d45d3ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <455F86C6-A1EA-4DE5-BF91-11AA3F77BEA4@gmail.com> There are different ferrule crimpers on the market. Square, half moon and round, square crimpers sometimes don't fit the lug as well as the 1/2 moon design which what Schnieder used for their OEM PDBs work best. I also use No-Ox-ID “A special” wire grease, to tame the fine strands w/ these cables. One thing that has yet to be mentioned here is; its important to look at the OD size of the insulation on your wires as the ferrules are also designed for the insulation of said wire to be inside, and if you don’t look & order the right internal end (insulation end) of ferrule size you will have a bunch of ferrels that u never use. I use Cobra X flex and the X Flex 150 wire and have found it to be great to work w/ and it offers larger ampacity ratings. XFlex150 #6AWH is ~150A When I’m making battery cables I only use the lugs available from my Cobra dealer. I assume that UL tests/ listings are given when using the lugs designed w/ the Manu’s crimper. Battery cable; I have found that making 2 cuts on the insulation the first is around 1/2 “wide, and removed, the second one which stays on the cable is 1/8th wide is then slid up to the end of the cable and when its inserted in the lug one, it slips down then cut off allowing you to insert the rest of the stripped wire. > On Sep 4, 2025, at 1:23 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > James: > > Sorry I forgot to include the fine option you introduced. Thank you for the reminder. > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > From: James Jarvis [mailto:jj at aprsworld.com ] > Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2025 4:33 PM > To: william at millersolar.com ; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. > > William, > > None of the crimpers you sent photos of are for ferrules. Those are all lug crimpers. Some are barely that. Nobody should be seriously considering anything you hit with a hammer to be a proper tool for installing any type of connector. > > Ferrule crimpers produce a square crimp and do what they are supposed to. > > Last Wednesday I sent you a note with this link: > https://www.ferrulesdirect.com/collections/hand-crimping-tools/products/vag240 > > It makes a square shape and won't have weird edges and the artifacts you mention you get when you smoosh a ferrule with a non-ferrule crimper. > > Ferrules are highly useful and reliable when installed correctly. You just need the right tool. > > The other thing I mentioned last week were pin adapters. They are crimp on fittings that are rated for fine stranded wire and they convert it to course stranded or solid shape. Here was the example I sent: > https://www.ilsco.com/Ilsco/ccrz__ProductDetails?sku=F2C-1%2F0-1%2F0-ILSM-ILS&cclcl=en_US > > > > > Best regards, > > > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 6:10 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Friends: >> >> My understanding is if the lug has a set-screw that contacts the strands, fine strands can wind around the set screw, get into the threads and not tighten adequately. If you are crimping fine strands inside of some type of barrel your connection should be OK. >> >> I had been using Outback until they imploded and all of the battery connections were via studs or bolts that required crimped-on rings. Now I am back to set screw lugs and fine stranding became an issue again. >> >> I did try another experiment: I took a 4/0 ferrule that would not fit into the Envy lugs and snipped a section out of it. I curled it into a slightly smaller diameter and it fit into the lug. I suppose one could cut the ferrule in half longitudinally and insert a portion of the ferrule between the set screw and the strands. >> >> I am pleased with the copper sheeting wrapped around the fine strands. That will be my SOP. >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2025 1:40 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Cc: Ray Walters >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for large fine-stranded wire. >> >> I've got to ask: Are none of the lugs on these Chinese inverters approved for fine strand cable? I just have not had a problem with that, but I've mostly used Magnum, Midnite, and Outback equipment over the years. What were the lugs on the old Trace DC 250 boxes? Were they fine strand rated? They sure were tough to get 4/0 into, as William mentioned. >> >> Ray >> Remote Solar >> >> On 9/3/2025 12:57 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> William, >>> >>> If the only reason the ferrule wouldn't fit after using the hex crimper was the ridge left where the dies meet, you could rotate the cable 120 degrees and crimp the ferrule again. >>> >>> I doubt that the indenter crimper will do a decent job with large ferrules. >>> >>> I do like your thin piece of copper solution. Not UL approved but I dare say wrench approved. >>> >>> Kent Osterberg >>> Blue Mountain Solar >>> >>> On 9/2/2025 8:55 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> Friends: >>>> >>>> Thank you for all of your input on this question. I feel it only right I report back how this turned out >>>> >>>> I tried a crimper like this: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It left a jagged ridge on both sides of the ferrule where the dies met. >>>> >>>> The crimper below was suggested but I have not tried it: >>>> >>>> This was suggested but I have not tried it either: >>>> >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Blair “TUMP” May Solarwinds Northernlights east "We must all learn to live together as brothers, or we all will perish as fools." MLK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Thu Sep 4 18:58:27 2025 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 17:58:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules for fine-stranded wire. In-Reply-To: <455F86C6-A1EA-4DE5-BF91-11AA3F77BEA4@gmail.com> References: <5e45555d26469d1c033400d609559127@mail.gmail.com> <50bf396a-4f5b-42bc-9f61-35a89d651dfc@coveoregon.com> <127dc5a7b9a1623f12eadc2931db1dc5@mail.gmail.com> <1fa252b9a82e16c32d99e0b62d45d3ce@mail.gmail.com> <455F86C6-A1EA-4DE5-BF91-11AA3F77BEA4@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 4, 2025 at 5:48 PM Blair May via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I use Cobra X flex and the X Flex 150 wire and have found it to be great > to work w/ and it offers larger ampacity ratings. XFlex150 #6AWH is ~150A > > Note that the ampacity of Cobra X flex for NEC applications would not be 150 amps or the 118 amps Cobra lists in the specifications. For NEC purposes it is a MTW or THW type. THW type would be rated for 65 amps at a 75 degree C termination temperature. There are different sets of rules that wire ampacity has to play by. NEC is very conservative. When the same wire is used as appliance wiring material (AWM) is where you can sometimes get those really high ampacities. But for hooking up batteries and inverters and building wiring and the like ... you only get 65 amps (more or less). This is a pretty common sales tactic that you will see on a lot of wires. Ampacities advertised under AWM conditions and not NEC conditions. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Sep 4 20:04:40 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 20:04:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24v lifepo4 options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's been plenty of chatter on the list about EG4. They make 12V and 24V server rack batteries. I've upgraded a couple old systems to use those recently. No callbacks yet! But I also have no monitoring on them. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Sep 4, 2025, 6:40 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey Wrenches, > Looking to see what others experiences ate with available 24v lithium iron > phosphate options.. any favorites or go-to's? I have used simpliphi in the > past with mixed results and am considering either Victron smart battery or > Rubix Stacked series for this job. Would love any feedback in these or > other options. Thanks in advance! > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 20:05:14 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 17:05:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24v lifepo4 options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Tyrone. I've used the 24v Rubix Stack series on three projects now and their 48v Giga on another. No problems with the 24v Stack series however the second time I powered up a Phocos Anygrid the 48v Giga model BMS failed on both batteries. The folks at Zonna said something about the Anygrid requiring a significant amount of current to fire up (similar to the capacitors paired with a Radian and a single Powerflo 16 perhaps). It's been a bit but I don't believe they gave me any specific pre-charge instructions. Zonna provided the usual great service they're known for and got me replacements right away and no problems since. Now connected to a single VFX3648 running an SQ Flex. I'm told the new 24v Rubix R series is due in any time now. More capacity, larger cabinet and a price per KWH comparable to a Powerflo16. Just minus UL9540, 15 year warranty, outdoor cabinet etc and Midnite reputation of course. Nick On Thu, Sep 4, 2025 at 3:39 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey Wrenches, > Looking to see what others experiences ate with available 24v lithium iron > phosphate options.. any favorites or go-to's? I have used simpliphi in the > past with mixed results and am considering either Victron smart battery or > Rubix Stacked series for this job. Would love any feedback in these or > other options. Thanks in advance! > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Sep 4 20:38:50 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2025 20:38:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24v lifepo4 options In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <594c4741-1731-4abd-b53a-318ecaf93fec@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Sep 4 21:42:03 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 19:42:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 v HomeGrid battery systems update? In-Reply-To: <6F99D093-0AE2-461A-81F0-365DAC7847F7@mavericksolar.com> References: <39347efd-d84c-4769-b41e-283d30a414df@entech-engineering.com> <6F99D093-0AE2-461A-81F0-365DAC7847F7@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Maverick; The system used a Victron 1200 VA Phoenix Inverter, open loop with voltage set points.  All of this fairly new to me, using blue tooth to program the inverter, having to have a hot spot to provide internet.  I even recently had to buy a budget PC laptop, since I had Macs, which are not compatible with any of this Chinese equipment.  Including the DC power supply to dark start these things, I've got a $1000 in special tools to service LiPO4. After decades of great service from Trace, Outback, Magnum, and Midnite, I can't wait to retire with all these new head aches related to firmware mismatch, etc. I assume an AI robot will be replacing me in a couple of years. Ray On 9/3/2025 3:12 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > This brings me back to a question I was trying to get data on… > > Not just specific to HomeGrid, but what Inverter was being used in > this case? Was it open loop or closed loop? If open loop, was it > inverter driven % based or  inverter driven Voltage based? > > Recently, I had a long intermittent technical issue with a pair of > Sol-Ark inverters that was using open loop but percentage based and it > kept crashing out because the Simpliphi Battery BMS was at zero SOC > when the inverter thought there was something left. > > I added a Victron SmartShunt to monitor and found that Inverter > Percentage was not charging to the proper voltage (high enough to fill > all the batteries). I switched to Voltage control and now all is well. > Even the chart data on the inverter would show low voltage situations > and would explain the situation. I just hadn’t even looked at the data > deeply enough. > > I wonder if Percent Closed Loop control is better than Percent Open > Loop control or are we leaving energy on the table? > > Let me know what you think? > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* > * • Solar Commander Remote Power* > * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > *maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > >> On Sep 3, 2025, at 3:55 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> I have one Home Grid system out here; its in their outdoor enclosure >> with built in battery heating.  I've had more call backs in the past >> year with that system than all my other off grid systems combined.  >> I've struggled with getting the right LVD settings, and even with >> decent settings, it seems the battery heating and the no load draw of >> the BMS will go ahead and drag the battery into shut down, requiring >> a trip out.  I have a small variable DC power supply which has been >> very important in the new days of LiPO4.  I run it on a Ryobi inverter. >> >> One of the times I went out, the system was not shut down, but the >> HomeGrid screen was blank, and I had to reboot the battery to get it >> back on.  I also experienced the BMS shutdown others mentioned, when >> one of the 4 batteries was out of EQ with the other batteries.  Even >> the initial startup was a nightmare, requiring a tech to take over my >> computer remotely, and then a month later, I had to sit out there for >> 3 hours while it came to full charge so I could bring the 4th battery >> back on line.  At least their Tech Support was really good. >> >> Also their outdoor enclosure is really chinzy, it takes over 30 >> stainless screws to attach the 2 halves together, and many of those >> screws have galled  and are unusable.  I even had to cut a couple off >> just to get in to service the battery. >> >> Ray >> Remote Solar >> >> On 9/3/2025 11:18 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> Nothing like a coincidence... >>> >>> A client on an island with three stacks of 8 HomeGrid batteries has >>> just called me to report that the entire system is down. All of the >>> battery BMS module displays are dark. I have mySolArk data from >>> three inverters there that show the batteries were topped off and >>> just idling along with solar covering the load at 5:00 pm last night >>> when the power suddenly went out, killing the Starlink connection. >>> I'm going for a boat ride tomorrow to check it out. Ugh. >>> >>> I will report my findings. Not sure if it's a battery or inverter >>> issue, but the customer's handyman reported nothing on the battery >>> screens, which seems strange to me. Even an error should not turn >>> the display off, as far as I recall. >>> >>> P.S. No power loss notifications from Sol-Ark is a frustrating loss >>> of functionality. I heard a rumor on Facebook that they are fixing >>> this in mySolArk this month, but I'm not holding my breath. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 4:31 PM Jason Szumlanski >>> wrote: >>> >>> We have some stacks of HomeGrid out there in various capacities, >>> from the smallest with five in a stack, up to four fully >>> populated stacks of eight. In total, I oversee around 150 >>> Stack'd batteries, including many that I installed and some that >>> were installed by others. I will say that they are easy to >>> install, have a nice bold visual interface, look good, and >>> perform up to expectations. They communicate flawlessly with >>> Sol-Ark 15k. However... >>> >>> I believe there is a fundamental design flaw in this stackable >>> battery architecture. Here is why I am no longer offering >>> HomeGrid in a nutshell: >>> >>> * When one battery in a stack has a fault, the entire stack >>> faults out, which renders the stack non-functional until you >>> either: >>> 1. Remove the battery from the stack or turn the circuit >>> breaker off, and: >>> 2. Reconfigure all of the dip switches to remove the >>> battery from the communication loop, then: >>> 3. Reprogram the master BMS to recognize the new stack >>> members and their positions. >>> * If you have multiple stacks, you have to do all of the >>> above, and in addition: >>> 1. Remove a battery from each additional stack to balance >>> them, then perform all of the above steps on each stack. >>> 2. But before you reprogram each master BMS you have to >>> take the stacks out of parallel communication, then >>> reprogram the parallel stacks before operation again. >>> 3. Making each stack equal is per HomeGrid support, but in >>> practice, I don't know if it is necessary, especially if >>> you are losing one of eight (12.5%). If you have smaller >>> stacks, this might be a bigger issue. >>> * To diagnose a battery issue with a laptop and cable and get >>> warranty support, you can only do that with the master BMS >>> because each battery does not have a comm port. That means >>> you have to have the entire stack non-functional while you >>> perform diagnostics, which is not ideal for off-grid >>> settings, especially if there is only one stack. >>> * If a battery fails to balance and becomes depleted, causing >>> a fault, there are no simple terminal bolts to connect an >>> external charger. I'm not sure how you would even >>> accomplish a manual charge without opening up the case. >>> >>> The EG4 server rack batteries work in a fundamentally different >>> way. Each battery has an independent BMS. When there is an alarm >>> in a stack or stacks of batteries, the entire battery bank does >>> not fault out. You can physically take a battery out of the >>> stack without changing any dip switches on the other batteries. >>> You can shut one down or experience a fault on one battery >>> without any others shutting down. I have tried this with the >>> LifePower4 batteries, even when there are multiple communication >>> strings of 16 batteries connected to a communication hub. The >>> rest of the batteries just keep on working, which is the way it >>> should be! The communication hub will just show zero values for >>> the battery that is missing from the stack. I cannot confirm if >>> this is the case with the LL batteries, but I suspect it would >>> be. In a way, this is like having the batteries in an open loop >>> in terms of resilience, with all of the benefits that >>> closed-loop battery communications offers. I have had a small >>> variety of battery issues with EG4, and not once has the whole >>> bank of batteries been affected by one battery's issue. >>> >>> Side note about another server rack option: I can confirm that >>> Pytes Ebox V1 batteries in a communication stack will shut down >>> all batteries if one has a fault, at least confirmed by one >>> situation I had. This is despite each battery having it's own >>> BMS and console port to communicate with the batteries. The >>> situation in my case was a battery that had no "Barcode" >>> programmed into it, which was causing a parallel >>> communication fault and shutting down the whole stack. In this >>> case, physically bypassing the battery with the issue with a >>> Cat5 coupling worked fine. There are no dip switches to set, and >>> the master battery reconfigures the communication stack >>> automatically. With Pytes' support, I was able to manually code >>> in the Barcode to the BMS with a console cable, and the problem >>> went away. I am not sure if all varieties of faults would have >>> the same effect with Pytes EBoxes, but this communication issue >>> definitely caused the whole stack to fault out. >>> >>> >>> The phenomenon of the new breed of LFP batteries lacking >>> reliability/redundancy inspired a blog post that I did just a >>> couple of weeks ago: >>> https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/homegrid-stackd-batteries-the-redundancy-fallacy >>> >>> >>> A couple of other notes on HomeGrid: >>> >>> * They do not have any way to connect conduit to the BMS. You >>> wouldn't want to anyway, especially with rigid conduit, >>> since you might need to remove the BMS for service. The BMS >>> should be at the bottom, in my opinion, for this reason. You >>> can only run positive and negative battery cables out of the >>> provided strain relief glands in free air, and it requires >>> that the batteries be about 4 inches away from the wall. >>> There is no suitable way to protect 100% of the battery cables. >>> * Along the same lines, if you ever plan to expand the system, >>> make sure you leave enough battery cable length to reach a >>> higher level. >>> * The lack of busbars is a really nice feature (until you get >>> into larger systems). >>> * The discharge rate supports the maximum input for a Sol-Ark >>> 15K with, I believe, just three batteries. >>> * I love their "busbar pair" designed specifically for the >>> Sol-Ark 15K. I order a pair with every inverter, regardless >>> of what battery I am using (although I am not actively >>> selling Sol-Ark right now). >>> * You can't monitor the condition of individual batteries with >>> Solar Assistant, or any other tool remotely to my knowledge. >>> You can't even monitor the condition of paralleled stacks. >>> * The "app" for the batteries is mind-bendingly useless – >>> unless I'm really missing something. >>> * For some firmware and hardware versions, over-the-air >>> updates are not possible, and HomeGrid will need to send you >>> an update tool. To be fair, I think this is also the case >>> with EG4 and some other manufacturers. >>> * Once we received a shipment where three of eight batteries >>> were in the right boxes, but there were no guts in the >>> batteries at all! It was just an empty steel battery shell. >>> We had to send them back to our supplier. The boxes >>> actually said 13 Kg on the labels rather than 52 Kg, but >>> nobody at the factory caught it. Strange. >>> * HomeGrid Support is very competent, I would say among the >>> best in terms of knowing their products inside and out, but >>> it's 50/50 whether I get someone on the phone or get a call >>> back in a timely manner that allows me to complete a service >>> call. They are willing to schedule assistance if you have an >>> off-grid situation that requires help. >>> >>> >>> Is this a vote for EG4? Not necessarily, but it's hard to argue >>> with the price and the superior reliability/redundancy aspects >>> of the LifePower4/LL batteries. One battery fault should not >>> shut down an entire system unless there is a legitimate safety >>> hazard. It's possible that these are UL issues that require >>> system shutdowns, but EG4 appears to have overcome the problems >>> I've seen with other manufacturers' products. >>> >>> Like others mentioned, I prefer to go with the 14.3 kWh / 16 kWh >>> sealed batteries. I feel they have better build quality (other >>> than my recent rant about rust on the MNP PowerFlo16), and >>> keeping components sealed up better just makes sense to me, >>> especially in challenging environments. Of course, if you want >>> more modularity in terms of expansion options and less impact if >>> a single unit goes down, 5 kWh units might be a better option. >>> There is no right or wrong option, I guess – sometimes it just >>> comes down to priorities, space, mounting options, and price. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 10:41 AM Christopher Warfel via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hi Wrenches, I went through the archives and read the >>> comparison between >>> these two.  The HomeGrid manual was in such a mess (or my >>> pdf reader was >>> defunct), that I started looking at other options. If anyone >>> has a >>> strong opinion of either of these two, or something better, >>> I would >>> appreciate.  We traditionally install small systems, and >>> this would be >>> one (@15kWh).  I would prefer to use a racking system with >>> the BMS as >>> part of the packaging. Solark 12kPV multimode.  Thank you, Chris >>> >>> -- >>> Christopher Warfel, PE >>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>> (401) 447-5773 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 22:02:01 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 20:02:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 v HomeGrid battery systems update? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7AA681F6-4AAB-4C90-BD22-76C9D384C632@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Thu Sep 4 22:20:44 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 19:20:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] half cut PV modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow. Reading through your document, I guess I've missed out on a lot of wire management issues by doing mostly ground mounts with my halfcut modules -- no MLPE, and just running the wires in the third rail. I actually like the half cut modules a lot better for production in the winter because when I get snow covering just the bottom edge of an array, the top part still works at half amperage -- much better than the old 60 cell modules where I'd often have a few inches of snow hanging on the bottom cell line, blocking all three of the bypass sections. Usually I find myself on the other end... where equipment is designed with everything except winter off grid systems. Interesting that in this case, it's actually good for my situation, by chance. Zeke -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Sep 4 22:54:47 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 19:54:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] half cut PV modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Zeke: Are you doing off-grid or grid-connected? Where are your PV circuits terminated? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Thu, Sep 4, 2025 at 7:21 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wow. Reading through your document, I guess I've missed out on a lot of > wire management issues by doing mostly ground mounts with my halfcut > modules -- no MLPE, and just running the wires in the third rail. > > I actually like the half cut modules a lot better for production in the > winter because when I get snow covering just the bottom edge of an array, > the top part still works at half amperage -- much better than the old 60 > cell modules where I'd often have a few inches of snow hanging on the > bottom cell line, blocking all three of the bypass sections. Usually I > find myself on the other end... where equipment is designed with everything > except winter off grid systems. Interesting that in this case, it's > actually good for my situation, by chance. > > Zeke > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Thu Sep 4 23:12:46 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2025 20:12:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] half cut PV modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm generally doing a mixture of off grid and grid tie battery backup. Generally I do a disconnect (usually a MNPV6-disco with the two pole 600 volt breakers, because I can break both the positive and negative lines from three 600 volt strings with one disconnect) on the back of the groundmount, with a PVC or LNFC snorkel coming out of it that goes up the back of the groundmount, then turns down along the back of the modules till right next to the rail that wires are run in. So there's at most an inch or so of exposed wire between the end of the conduit and the c-channel rail. Two of those snorkels when there's two rows of modules. Most of my groundmounts I try for two rows in portrait. In landscape the wiring gets much uglier, and all the horizontal joints catch snow much more. It does require a little more racking to do portrait vs the landscape designs that most companies have stock. I've also done SMA or Fronius inverters hung on the back of the groundmount, with a snorkel coming out of the inverter for the PV circuits. Zeke On Thu, Sep 4, 2025 at 7:54 PM William Miller wrote: > Zeke: > > Are you doing off-grid or grid-connected? Where are your PV circuits > terminated? > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Thu, Sep 4, 2025 at 7:21 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wow. Reading through your document, I guess I've missed out on a lot of >> wire management issues by doing mostly ground mounts with my halfcut >> modules -- no MLPE, and just running the wires in the third rail. >> >> I actually like the half cut modules a lot better for production in the >> winter because when I get snow covering just the bottom edge of an array, >> the top part still works at half amperage -- much better than the old 60 >> cell modules where I'd often have a few inches of snow hanging on the >> bottom cell line, blocking all three of the bypass sections. Usually I >> find myself on the other end... where equipment is designed with everything >> except winter off grid systems. Interesting that in this case, it's >> actually good for my situation, by chance. >> >> Zeke >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- Zeke Yewdall PV Engineer NABCEP #031508-89 zeke at darkforestsolar.com 303-523-3592 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 5 05:43:53 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2025 05:43:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 v HomeGrid battery systems update? In-Reply-To: <7AA681F6-4AAB-4C90-BD22-76C9D384C632@gmail.com> References: <7AA681F6-4AAB-4C90-BD22-76C9D384C632@gmail.com> Message-ID: This has also been my experience. I don't know if it's EG4 listening to customers and understanding what we are up against. It might be dumb luck that their batteries work this way. but I have never had an issue with firmware mismatch with EG4 in an open-loop setting, even when the batteries are communicating with each other, just not with an inverter. It's too bad their batteries don't play nice with Sol-Ark. More accurately, probably, Sol-Ark doesn't play nice with EG4. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Sep 4, 2025 at 10:04 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I had to talk to eg4 today. > I asked them about the necessity for firmware updates on batteries. > They said the batteries will work without correct firmware. They might not > be compatible of communication with the inverter but will work. > > So if you had to add another battery to a few older ones it would work > fine. > Yes best to do a firmware update but not necessary > > > > On Sep 4, 2025, at 3:53 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Ok, I have some information about the latest shutdown of HomeGrid. I just > went out to the island today and spent the entire day resolving the issue > (hopefully). > > First, I want to clearly state how incredibly knowledgeable, helpful, and > patient HomeGrid technical support was today (shout out to Armando Rolden). > I was lucky enough to have all of the right cables with me, and the EMS > Tools preloaded on my Windows laptop, and we worked together to diagnose > and resolve things. > > I'll cut to the chase: there were two potential issues that might have > caused the shutdowns. > > 1. On one stack of batteries we had previously bypassed a pack > (HomeGrid calls the individual batteries a pack). This was months ago and > we did it because somehow it became out of balance, meaning one of the 15 > cells internally had a significantly lower voltage. We do not know why this > happened, but presumably it was not being cycled enough to 100%, which > HomeGrid insists is absolutely necessary to prevent issues like this. The > moral of the story: don't undersize a PV array with HomeGrid, or at least > have an auxiliary charging source to get batteries to 100% at least weekly. > I seriously doubt this was the reason for the recent shutdowns because we > had been running two uneven stacks for months (one with 7 and one with 8) > without any issues. > 2. We added a stack of 8 to the original two stacks a month ago. For three > weeks, everything worked fine. Then we started getting these random > shutdowns. We discovered today that four of the eight packs had a different > software version. This is the more likely reason, in my opinion, that we > experienced issues. Incidentally, the shutdowns always happened when the > batteries were at 100% for a few hours. This points to issues with > differing charge limits between the different software versions according > to HomeGrid. > > > So where does this leave me? I'm hopeful that the software updates and > manual rebalancing of the unbalanced pack will resolve the issues at this > site. But it reiterates that these sytems are not ideal for off-grid > applications when issues like these can take down the whole system. And I > was fortunate that the property was unoccupied today, because I had to shut > down the system many times. We had to un-parallel stacks, reconfigure > things, and re-parallel at the end. I did not have a generator functional > at the time, so I could not keep power on to the home, so we lost Internet, > which made remote support difficult. We had to run off of one stack for a > while to make it happen, so that also required some reconfiguring. > > All of this takes a LOT of time. As I said, I spent all day on this. Part > of the problem was that I called HomeGrid at 9:00 am EST and didn't get a > call back until 11:00 am, but I had already left the site! I had to turn > the boat around to go back. I didn't know how long it was going to take, so > I wasn't going to wait all day, but fortunately they caught me in time. > > The bottom line is I think HomeGrid has a good product. When it works, it > works. But the premium price and the off-grid resilience and serviceability > issues make it unsuitable for my applications. > > If issues persist at this site, I am going to have to run the three stacks > in open-loop. That will not help the intra-stack issues, but it might help > with redundancy by keeping two of three stacks going in the event of a > fault. Of course, there are serious downsides to this, given that the SOC > estimating from Sol-Ark is poor and Voltage mode will need to be used for > the AGS as a result. I really hope that the system will keep humming along, > but I'm sure it is only a matter of time before I'm called back out. > > > Finally, I also need to backtrack on something I said before. You CAN > connect to individual battery packs with a computer and use the HomeGrid > EMS Tools. It requires a differnet RS232-USB cable with a RJ11 connector on > one end. It allows you to monitor the battery pack in real time, but not > perform updates (which requires RS485). However, the battery pack has to be > turned on, and if it is in a stack and has a fault, the stack will probably > error out and not function as a result. So the same problem exists in that > you can't service a pack within a stack while the rest of the stack > functions normally. > > > P.S. If you work with HomeGrid with EMS Tools, make sure you record the > password for the software interface for future reference. If you can't > reach HomeGrid, you will need it to even open up the software. It's not a > standard default password. > > > > I hope this helps others! > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 1:18 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Nothing like a coincidence... >> >> A client on an island with three stacks of 8 HomeGrid batteries has just >> called me to report that the entire system is down. All of the battery BMS >> module displays are dark. I have mySolArk data from three inverters there >> that show the batteries were topped off and just idling along with solar >> covering the load at 5:00 pm last night when the power suddenly went out, >> killing the Starlink connection. I'm going for a boat ride tomorrow to >> check it out. Ugh. >> >> I will report my findings. Not sure if it's a battery or inverter issue, >> but the customer's handyman reported nothing on the battery screens, which >> seems strange to me. Even an error should not turn the display off, as far >> as I recall. >> >> P.S. No power loss notifications from Sol-Ark is a frustrating loss of >> functionality. I heard a rumor on Facebook that they are fixing this >> in mySolArk this month, but I'm not holding my breath. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 4:31 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> We have some stacks of HomeGrid out there in various capacities, from >>> the smallest with five in a stack, up to four fully populated stacks of >>> eight. In total, I oversee around 150 Stack'd batteries, including many >>> that I installed and some that were installed by others. I will say that >>> they are easy to install, have a nice bold visual interface, look good, and >>> perform up to expectations. They communicate flawlessly with Sol-Ark 15k. >>> However... >>> >>> I believe there is a fundamental design flaw in this stackable battery >>> architecture. Here is why I am no longer offering HomeGrid in a nutshell: >>> >>> - When one battery in a stack has a fault, the entire stack faults >>> out, which renders the stack non-functional until you either: >>> 1. Remove the battery from the stack or turn the circuit breaker >>> off, and: >>> 2. Reconfigure all of the dip switches to remove the battery from >>> the communication loop, then: >>> 3. Reprogram the master BMS to recognize the new stack members >>> and their positions. >>> - If you have multiple stacks, you have to do all of the above, and >>> in addition: >>> 1. Remove a battery from each additional stack to balance them, >>> then perform all of the above steps on each stack. >>> 2. But before you reprogram each master BMS you have to take the >>> stacks out of parallel communication, then reprogram the parallel stacks >>> before operation again. >>> 3. Making each stack equal is per HomeGrid support, but in >>> practice, I don't know if it is necessary, especially if you are losing one >>> of eight (12.5%). If you have smaller stacks, this might be a bigger issue. >>> - To diagnose a battery issue with a laptop and cable and get >>> warranty support, you can only do that with the master BMS because each >>> battery does not have a comm port. That means you have to have the entire >>> stack non-functional while you perform diagnostics, which is not ideal for >>> off-grid settings, especially if there is only one stack. >>> - If a battery fails to balance and becomes depleted, causing a >>> fault, there are no simple terminal bolts to connect an external charger. >>> I'm not sure how you would even accomplish a manual charge without opening >>> up the case. >>> >>> The EG4 server rack batteries work in a fundamentally different way. >>> Each battery has an independent BMS. When there is an alarm in a stack or >>> stacks of batteries, the entire battery bank does not fault out. You can >>> physically take a battery out of the stack without changing any dip >>> switches on the other batteries. You can shut one down or experience >>> a fault on one battery without any others shutting down. I have tried this >>> with the LifePower4 batteries, even when there are multiple communication >>> strings of 16 batteries connected to a communication hub. The rest of the >>> batteries just keep on working, which is the way it should be! The >>> communication hub will just show zero values for the battery that is >>> missing from the stack. I cannot confirm if this is the case with the LL >>> batteries, but I suspect it would be. In a way, this is like having the >>> batteries in an open loop in terms of resilience, with all of the benefits >>> that closed-loop battery communications offers. I have had a small variety >>> of battery issues with EG4, and not once has the whole bank of batteries >>> been affected by one battery's issue. >>> >>> Side note about another server rack option: I can confirm that Pytes >>> Ebox V1 batteries in a communication stack will shut down all batteries if >>> one has a fault, at least confirmed by one situation I had. This is despite >>> each battery having it's own BMS and console port to communicate with the >>> batteries. The situation in my case was a battery that had no "Barcode" >>> programmed into it, which was causing a parallel communication fault and >>> shutting down the whole stack. In this case, physically bypassing the >>> battery with the issue with a Cat5 coupling worked fine. There are no dip >>> switches to set, and the master battery reconfigures the communication >>> stack automatically. With Pytes' support, I was able to manually code in >>> the Barcode to the BMS with a console cable, and the problem went away. I >>> am not sure if all varieties of faults would have the same effect with >>> Pytes EBoxes, but this communication issue definitely caused the whole >>> stack to fault out. >>> >>> >>> The phenomenon of the new breed of LFP batteries lacking >>> reliability/redundancy inspired a blog post that I did just a couple of >>> weeks ago: >>> https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/homegrid-stackd-batteries-the-redundancy-fallacy >>> >>> >>> A couple of other notes on HomeGrid: >>> >>> - They do not have any way to connect conduit to the BMS. You >>> wouldn't want to anyway, especially with rigid conduit, since you might >>> need to remove the BMS for service. The BMS should be at the bottom, in my >>> opinion, for this reason. You can only run positive and negative battery >>> cables out of the provided strain relief glands in free air, and it >>> requires that the batteries be about 4 inches away from the wall. There is >>> no suitable way to protect 100% of the battery cables. >>> - Along the same lines, if you ever plan to expand the system, make >>> sure you leave enough battery cable length to reach a higher level. >>> - The lack of busbars is a really nice feature (until you get into >>> larger systems). >>> - The discharge rate supports the maximum input for a Sol-Ark 15K >>> with, I believe, just three batteries. >>> - I love their "busbar pair" designed specifically for the Sol-Ark >>> 15K. I order a pair with every inverter, regardless of what battery I am >>> using (although I am not actively selling Sol-Ark right now). >>> - You can't monitor the condition of individual batteries with Solar >>> Assistant, or any other tool remotely to my knowledge. You can't even >>> monitor the condition of paralleled stacks. >>> - The "app" for the batteries is mind-bendingly useless – unless I'm >>> really missing something. >>> - For some firmware and hardware versions, over-the-air updates are >>> not possible, and HomeGrid will need to send you an update tool. To be >>> fair, I think this is also the case with EG4 and some other manufacturers. >>> - Once we received a shipment where three of eight batteries were in >>> the right boxes, but there were no guts in the batteries at all! It was >>> just an empty steel battery shell. We had to send them back to our >>> supplier. The boxes actually said 13 Kg on the labels rather than 52 Kg, >>> but nobody at the factory caught it. Strange. >>> - HomeGrid Support is very competent, I would say among the best in >>> terms of knowing their products inside and out, but it's 50/50 whether I >>> get someone on the phone or get a call back in a timely manner that allows >>> me to complete a service call. They are willing to schedule assistance if >>> you have an off-grid situation that requires help. >>> >>> >>> Is this a vote for EG4? Not necessarily, but it's hard to argue with the >>> price and the superior reliability/redundancy aspects of the LifePower4/LL >>> batteries. One battery fault should not shut down an entire system unless >>> there is a legitimate safety hazard. It's possible that these are UL issues >>> that require system shutdowns, but EG4 appears to have overcome the >>> problems I've seen with other manufacturers' products. >>> >>> Like others mentioned, I prefer to go with the 14.3 kWh / 16 kWh sealed >>> batteries. I feel they have better build quality (other than my recent rant >>> about rust on the MNP PowerFlo16), and keeping components sealed up better >>> just makes sense to me, especially in challenging environments. Of course, >>> if you want more modularity in terms of expansion options and less impact >>> if a single unit goes down, 5 kWh units might be a better option. There is >>> no right or wrong option, I guess – sometimes it just comes down to >>> priorities, space, mounting options, and price. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 2, 2025 at 10:41 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Wrenches, I went through the archives and read the comparison >>>> between >>>> these two. The HomeGrid manual was in such a mess (or my pdf reader >>>> was >>>> defunct), that I started looking at other options. If anyone has a >>>> strong opinion of either of these two, or something better, I would >>>> appreciate. We traditionally install small systems, and this would be >>>> one (@15kWh). I would prefer to use a racking system with the BMS as >>>> part of the packaging. Solark 12kPV multimode. Thank you, Chris >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Christopher Warfel, PE >>>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>>> (401) 447-5773 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Sep 5 13:59:14 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2025 17:59:14 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Open Loop vs Closed loop explanations Message-ID: As our technology moves fwd. with more & more engineering level options; at times I feel ignorant & lost. I went online to try to understand these options. Is this an accurate explanation? Yes, it is true I am a grey-haired RE dinosaur☺ Does anyone have additional explanations /definitions that are relevant to in particular LI batteries & associated BMS controls? __________________________________________________________________ An open-loop system operates on a pre-set input without using the output to make corrections, resulting in a simple, low-cost design but poor accuracy and adaptability to changing conditions. In contrast, a closed-loop system uses feedback to continuously compare the actual output to a desired output, making real-time adjustments to maintain accuracy and compensate for disturbances, though it is more complex and costly. Open-Loop Systems (Non-Feedback Systems) * How it works: The system's control action is independent of the system's output. Once an input is given, the system operates without measuring or considering the result.   Characteristics: * Simple, straightforward design.   Low cost and easy to implement.   Operates more swiftly due to the absence of feedback processing.   Immune to feedback-related issues. *   Examples: A hand dryer that runs for a set time regardless of whether hands are dry, a toaster that heats for a fixed duration, or a simple electric mixer. * Closed-Loop Systems (Feedback Control Systems) * How it works: The system's output is measured and fed back to the controller, which compares it to the desired setpoint. The controller then makes adjustments to the input to minimize the error between the actual and desired output.   Characteristics: * Self-regulating and self-correcting.   High accuracy and adaptability to changing conditions.   Requires additional components like sensors and control algorithms, leading to increased complexity and cost.   May experience a slight delay due to the feedback loop. *   Examples: An automatic cruise control system that adjusts engine power to maintain a set speed, or a thermostat that turns the heater on or off to reach a desired temperature. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Sep 5 14:47:50 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2025 14:47:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Open Loop vs Closed loop explanations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6ffe8569-058e-4807-a7da-8ba77279645d@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Fri Sep 5 16:27:56 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2025 13:27:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Open Loop vs Closed Loop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For the definitions of open loop vs closed loop according to how we use those terms for lithium batteries: the definitions you gave are according to engineering control systems theory. But these terms have kind of been adopted by the solar industry without really applying them correctly in my opinion. Open loop batteries there is no communications between the inverter (or charge controllers) and the battery. The inverter/cc makes its decisions based on voltage and current -- just like we always did on lead acid batteries. It might be more advanced, having a battery current monitor or an AH counting monitor on the battery, like some of the victron systems and I think Trimetric had a charge controller that worked with their meter, so adjust charging based not just on the voltage and current at the charge controller, but also voltage and current at the actual battery terminals or calculated SOC. But there is still no communication with a battery BMS. I would still say that there is feedback in this setup. The inverter/cc is continuously adjusting the current based on what the voltage is doing. If the voltage tries to go up above absorb setting, it reduces the current to keep it from doing so. If a load turns on and voltage drops when it's in float, it increases current to keep it at float voltage. So it's not really open loop in the strict sense of an open loop control. An open loop charge control would be one that puts in 20 amps for 4 hours on a timer, and pays no attention to battery voltage, for example. What we call closed loop lithium battery communication is really taking the control away from the inverter/cc and giving it to the battery. Instead of the inverter/cc watching the voltage and deciding what to do... how much current to put into the battery.. the battery BMS sends a set of rules to the inverter saying how much it wants. It tells the inverter -- give me as much power as you can. or, limit your power to 5000 watts now, or I'm full, only do enough power to handle the load. I'm not sure exactly who makes some of the decisions... for example does the battery tell the inverter to turn off for low battery when the BMS sees below a certain SOC, or does it just tell the inverter what the SOC is, and you program the inverter to turn off below that SOC. Effectively it doesn't matter, as when we are programming it as a user, we don't actually know which of the devices is making the decision, but we just program the result of the decision... i.e. turn off when SOC drops to 10%. There is still another level of control the BMS has, whether in open or closed loop. If the inverter does not behave... either pushing the battery voltage out of acceptable ranges in open loop, or not following the commands of the BMS in closed loop ... then the BMS will turn off the charging and discharging contactor and turn off. It's protecting itself... sometimes with disastrous consequences for the inverter and rest of the system. I once had a battery turn off the contactor due to overvoltage from a 6kW DC generator that was not throttling back charging properly. The DC generator spiked to 75 volts due to sudden loss of load, which fried everything in the system that couldn't take 75 volts. Amazingly, the radian inverter survived it. My theory of operation is that I never want the battery BMS to feel like it needs to open the main contactor to protect itself... that often means a on site physical restart. Worst case can be a black start situation where you have to manually bypass the BMS, or destroyed equipment from charging sources spiking without a battery to smooth out the voltage. So, in open loop I always try to program such that the BMS never gets unhappy... stop charging before it hits high voltage. Stop discharging before it hits low voltage. Etc. When in closed loop, you hope that the battery having control over the inverter prevents situations like this, but they can still happen, especially on the low end. SOC indicated by BMS's can drift from reality, just as SOC from AH counting meters can over time, if they don't reach reset conditions regularly. And many battery BMS's are blind to very small currents... less than 1 amp for most BMS's in the 100+ amp size, and less than 0.2 amps for lower amperage ones. This means that a very low discharge from an inverter tare load but no AC loads on it, or DC LED lighting, can slowly discharge a lithium battery without the BMS counting down on the SOC. After a few weeks, the actual SOC may be 30%, while it still reports 100%. This means you can start discharging it and have a voltage dropout while SOC is still quite high. At this point, the battery BMS will usually cut off due to low cell voltage, and suddenly recalibrate itself to 0%... when it may have said 60% just a minute before. So, even with closed loop comms, you can still have issues if you don't reach a true 100% every week or two I find, due to SOC drift. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Sep 6 12:03:12 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2025 16:03:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: Open Loop vs Closed Loop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Zeke – You bring up more issues & I appreciate the conversation and assorted directions this conversation might go. This bucket of options for both inverters, chargers &batteries, needs some common communication rules kind of like the world finally adopting the “C” cable for small electronic devices _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, September 5, 2025 2:28 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Zeke Yewdall Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Open Loop vs Closed Loop For the definitions of open loop vs closed loop according to how we use those terms for lithium batteries: the definitions you gave are according to engineering control systems theory. But these terms have kind of been adopted by the solar industry without really applying them correctly in my opinion. Open loop batteries there is no communications between the inverter (or charge controllers) and the battery. The inverter/cc makes its decisions based on voltage and current -- just like we always did on lead acid batteries. It might be more advanced, having a battery current monitor or an AH counting monitor on the battery, like some of the victron systems and I think Trimetric had a charge controller that worked with their meter, so adjust charging based not just on the voltage and current at the charge controller, but also voltage and current at the actual battery terminals or calculated SOC. But there is still no communication with a battery BMS. I would still say that there is feedback in this setup. The inverter/cc is continuously adjusting the current based on what the voltage is doing. If the voltage tries to go up above absorb setting, it reduces the current to keep it from doing so. If a load turns on and voltage drops when it's in float, it increases current to keep it at float voltage. So it's not really open loop in the strict sense of an open loop control. An open loop charge control would be one that puts in 20 amps for 4 hours on a timer, and pays no attention to battery voltage, for example. What we call closed loop lithium battery communication is really taking the control away from the inverter/cc and giving it to the battery. Instead of the inverter/cc watching the voltage and deciding what to do... how much current to put into the battery.. the battery BMS sends a set of rules to the inverter saying how much it wants. It tells the inverter -- give me as much power as you can. or, limit your power to 5000 watts now, or I'm full, only do enough power to handle the load. I'm not sure exactly who makes some of the decisions... for example does the battery tell the inverter to turn off for low battery when the BMS sees below a certain SOC, or does it just tell the inverter what the SOC is, and you program the inverter to turn off below that SOC. Effectively it doesn't matter, as when we are programming it as a user, we don't actually know which of the devices is making the decision, but we just program the result of the decision... i.e. turn off when SOC drops to 10%. There is still another level of control the BMS has, whether in open or closed loop. If the inverter does not behave... either pushing the battery voltage out of acceptable ranges in open loop, or not following the commands of the BMS in closed loop ... then the BMS will turn off the charging and discharging contactor and turn off. It's protecting itself... sometimes with disastrous consequences for the inverter and rest of the system. I once had a battery turn off the contactor due to overvoltage from a 6kW DC generator that was not throttling back charging properly. The DC generator spiked to 75 volts due to sudden loss of load, which fried everything in the system that couldn't take 75 volts. Amazingly, the radian inverter survived it. My theory of operation is that I never want the battery BMS to feel like it needs to open the main contactor to protect itself... that often means a on site physical restart. Worst case can be a black start situation where you have to manually bypass the BMS, or destroyed equipment from charging sources spiking without a battery to smooth out the voltage. So, in open loop I always try to program such that the BMS never gets unhappy... stop charging before it hits high voltage. Stop discharging before it hits low voltage. Etc. When in closed loop, you hope that the battery having control over the inverter prevents situations like this, but they can still happen, especially on the low end. SOC indicated by BMS's can drift from reality, just as SOC from AH counting meters can over time, if they don't reach reset conditions regularly. And many battery BMS's are blind to very small currents... less than 1 amp for most BMS's in the 100+ amp size, and less than 0.2 amps for lower amperage ones. This means that a very low discharge from an inverter tare load but no AC loads on it, or DC LED lighting, can slowly discharge a lithium battery without the BMS counting down on the SOC. After a few weeks, the actual SOC may be 30%, while it still reports 100%. This means you can start discharging it and have a voltage dropout while SOC is still quite high. At this point, the battery BMS will usually cut off due to low cell voltage, and suddenly recalibrate itself to 0%... when it may have said 60% just a minute before. So, even with closed loop comms, you can still have issues if you don't reach a true 100% every week or two I find, due to SOC drift. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From william at millersolar.com Mon Sep 8 19:15:12 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2025 16:15:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Envy Gen starting Message-ID: Friends: I am trying to understand the Envy 12. Here is the question of the day: If the Envy calls for a Gen start and the Gen fails to start, what happens? Does the contact closure open after a preset time to protect the starter? Will the Envy try more than once to start the generator? Tech support says the contact closure stays closed until either the SOC goes above the Gen stop setting or the inverter shuts off due to low SOC. This sounds lame to me and disregards years of off-grid best-practice. Also, tech support says I should size PV for full autonomy for the shortest, darkest, rainiest days of the year. I think this is too much solar and that is why to have a generator. Do any of you size that way? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 19:42:03 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2025 17:42:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Envy Gen starting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95C6D9FA-2836-4794-A122-C12009C1A272@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Sep 9 12:32:11 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2025 09:32:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring generator on Envy app/web app In-Reply-To: References: <4c65a5c441f897b515275fbdc55c0f10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9463afe68fecb357048a37b0d57fc138@mail.gmail.com> Jay: Thank you for all of your help with the Envy. The display never populated after additional generator run. One tech told me he can see the generator history but he has a different interface. I like a lot of things about the Envy and there a few things I do not like. Optics RE was/is a great interface so it set high standards. Any change will be hard. Is there a function to send alerts via email or text if something is not right with the Envy? Thank you again. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, September 3, 2025 3:49 PM *To:* William Miller *Cc:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring generator on Envy app/web app I dont think it will back populate. See if it works going forward jay On Sep 3, 2025, at 4:42 PM, William Miller wrote: Jay: Thank you. I did find that column although on my browser it is spelled AC Couple/Gnerator. It shows zero all day long for days I know the generator ran. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, September 3, 2025 2:58 PM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring generator on Envy app/web app I believe if you go the web site for fortress Input&output power manage columns add AC/generator should work On Sep 3, 2025, at 12:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Friends: I’m still learning this product. Neither the mobile or the web monitoring app will tell me when in the past the generator ran. This data is important to manage any off-grid system for maximum efficiency. I can see via the animated arrows when the gen is running but there is no data column for graphing or displaying generator history I called tech support and the person I spoke to can see generator history on his web-app but I can’t see it on my browser and I don’t have the column choice he has for generator graphing. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Sep 9 15:14:27 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2025 12:14:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Envy Gen starting In-Reply-To: <95C6D9FA-2836-4794-A122-C12009C1A272@gmail.com> References: <95C6D9FA-2836-4794-A122-C12009C1A272@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7547dae5857b5b25d849ac98117e8374@mail.gmail.com> Jay: You are exactly right. The Radian has a fault timer settable between 5 and 30 minutes. If the Radian fails to receive acceptable generator power after that time it generators a fault, and presumably opens the contact closure. The SW inverters had more settings such as pre-crank delay, post crank delay, etc. The reason I ask is I am setting up a circuit to automatically start the backup generator if the main generator fails to start. We have one of the Kohler RDT transfer switches that will follow the AC source. Thanks again. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, September 8, 2025 4:42 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Envy Gen starting Hi william This is exactly the same type of ags the radian has It’s supposed to work with a generator that has the auto start function in it. So the inverter just sends a start signal to it. The radian had a default of around 15 minutes if memory serves. IE if the genny doesn’t start in that amount of time the inverter ags would fault Most generators have some number of start attempts afterwards it will usually fault. Requiring a human to clear the generator fault. The inverter start signal isn’t connected to the starter so the generator won’t continue to crank. I don’t think the envy inverter goes into a fault mode. I think the printed responses from fortress are clueless There is another part that is problematic. If you have the ags start say 20% -80%. And you want to turn the generator on to charge batteries at 40% it won’t charge. It will pass through to the loads. I have talked to them that remote manual start generator should just charge up to the upper limit thats set. Yeah didn’t get anywhere. So you have to set the ags start % to where it is and then start the generator. That all said. I have a 3 stack that has been without any issues at all. Fully off grid, ags. Works Jay On Sep 8, 2025, at 5:16 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Friends: I am trying to understand the Envy 12. Here is the question of the day: If the Envy calls for a Gen start and the Gen fails to start, what happens? Does the contact closure open after a preset time to protect the starter? Will the Envy try more than once to start the generator? Tech support says the contact closure stays closed until either the SOC goes above the Gen stop setting or the inverter shuts off due to low SOC. This sounds lame to me and disregards years of off-grid best-practice. Also, tech support says I should size PV for full autonomy for the shortest, darkest, rainiest days of the year. I think this is too much solar and that is why to have a generator. Do any of you size that way? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Tue Sep 9 15:44:50 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2025 19:44:50 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] My AHJ insisting on "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant" 18-inch requirement Message-ID: Seeking your suggestions and direction. My AHJ - after acknowledging that the Enphase 5p battery has a floor mount option - now insists that it must be 18-inches above the garage floor unless I can produce something that says it is "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant." We all know there is no open flame from an ESS and I know the 9540A depicts a battery at 6-inches. Anybody run into this and have suggestions on what I might show back to the AHJ? Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 [cid:a0f86005-ae29-4766-b504-3c4dfcffd9dd] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Sep 9 15:47:07 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2025 12:47:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Envy12 notifications Message-ID: Friends: The Envy 12 does have a notification option. It is found in the installers portal. Find Configuration and then in the station table on the far right is an Action column. The drop down list has a Notice option. You can select Notice and Faults or Faults only. You can’t micro-manage which alerts like Optics. I hope this information helps someone. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Tue Sep 9 16:12:14 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2025 13:12:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My interpretation of this is that he wants to make sure that the battery cannot ignite a flammable vapor cloud from gasoline being spilled in the garage. If he's saying that no electrical equipment that might create a spark (such as with a relay or switch or circuit breaker) can be below 18", that may be the case. I might be completely off base here, but I don't think it has anything to do with it being a battery really, but just a piece of electrical equipment that might have relays or sparking things inside? Maybe? In which case... does the 5p have any relays or contactors, or is it's BMS all solid state? And second question would be can you document that. Zeke --------------------------------- Seeking your suggestions and direction. My AHJ - after acknowledging that the Enphase 5p battery has a floor mount option - now insists that it must be 18-inches above the garage floor unless I can produce something that says it is "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant." We all know there is no open flame from an ESS and I know the 9540A depicts a battery at 6-inches. Anybody run into this and have suggestions on what I might show back to the AHJ? Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Sep 9 16:40:30 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2025 20:40:30 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I flipped a light switch on this morning in the dark & saw a tiny minor spark it does not take much........ _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2025 20:12:14 +0000 Size: 13237 URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 9 17:00:30 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2025 17:00:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's a first for me. The Enphase battery is sealed, but I don't know if that qualifies as sealed against vapor. I'd reach out to Enphase to get some guidance on that. It's always something with these AHJs. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Sep 9, 2025 at 4:13 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > My interpretation of this is that he wants to make sure that the battery > cannot ignite a flammable vapor cloud from gasoline being spilled in > the garage. If he's saying that no electrical equipment that might create > a spark (such as with a relay or switch or circuit breaker) can be below > 18", that may be the case. I might be completely off base here, but I > don't think it has anything to do with it being a battery really, but just > a piece of electrical equipment that might have relays or sparking things > inside? Maybe? In which case... does the 5p have any relays or > contactors, or is it's BMS all solid state? And second question would be > can you document that. > > Zeke > > --------------------------------- > Seeking your suggestions and direction. My AHJ - after acknowledging that > the Enphase 5p battery has a floor mount option - now insists that it must > be 18-inches above the garage floor unless I can produce something that > says it is "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant." > > We all know there is no open flame from an ESS and I know the 9540A > depicts a battery at 6-inches. > > Anybody run into this and have suggestions on what I might show back to > the AHJ? > > Howard "Scot" Arey > Owner, Solar CenTex > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Sep 9 17:07:52 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2025 17:07:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 18:27:01 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2025 16:27:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35C6469E-0EC5-4AF0-92F8-7BF26ECBBDFF@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sue at midnitesolar.com Wed Sep 10 06:57:16 2025 From: Sue at midnitesolar.com (Sue Stankevitz) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2025 10:57:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant In-Reply-To: <35C6469E-0EC5-4AF0-92F8-7BF26ECBBDFF@gmail.com> References: <35C6469E-0EC5-4AF0-92F8-7BF26ECBBDFF@gmail.com> Message-ID: They may be looking for the Class 1 Div 2 rating with means that it has been designed to safely operate in environments where flammable vapors or gases exist and have the potential to rise to ignitable concentrations. Midnite had to get a charge controller certified to that standard several years ago. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DC2220.238F1630] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, September 9, 2025 6:27 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant What would be the rating for that? Is it a NEMA or? Jay On Sep 9, 2025, at 3:08 PM, Glenn via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Unfortunately codes and standards are constantly changing and inspectors are trying to catchup and interpret them as quickly as possible to ensure compliance for safety sake. Erring on the side of safety is their job until educated otherwise -Glenn On Sep 9, 2025 17:00, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: That's a first for me. The Enphase battery is sealed, but I don't know if that qualifies as sealed against vapor. I'd reach out to Enphase to get some guidance on that. It's always something with these AHJs. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Sep 9, 2025 at 4:13 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches > wrote: My interpretation of this is that he wants to make sure that the battery cannot ignite a flammable vapor cloud from gasoline being spilled in the garage. If he's saying that no electrical equipment that might create a spark (such as with a relay or switch or circuit breaker) can be below 18", that may be the case. I might be completely off base here, but I don't think it has anything to do with it being a battery really, but just a piece of electrical equipment that might have relays or sparking things inside? Maybe? In which case... does the 5p have any relays or contactors, or is it's BMS all solid state? And second question would be can you document that. Zeke --------------------------------- Seeking your suggestions and direction. My AHJ - after acknowledging that the Enphase 5p battery has a floor mount option - now insists that it must be 18-inches above the garage floor unless I can produce something that says it is "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant." We all know there is no open flame from an ESS and I know the 9540A depicts a battery at 6-inches. Anybody run into this and have suggestions on what I might show back to the AHJ? Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Wed Sep 10 08:35:16 2025 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2025 08:35:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant In-Reply-To: References: <35C6469E-0EC5-4AF0-92F8-7BF26ECBBDFF@gmail.com> Message-ID: So Sue, where does the MN PowerFlo 16 product stand in regards to class I, div II rating? Christopher On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 6:58 AM Sue Stankevitz via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > They may be looking for the Class 1 Div 2 rating with means that it has > been designed to safely operate in environments where flammable vapors or > gases exist and have the potential to rise to ignitable concentrations. > Midnite had to get a charge controller certified to that standard several > years ago. > > > > Sue Stankevitz > MidNite Solar, Inc. > (360) 403-7207 (XT122) > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jay via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 9, 2025 6:27 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jay > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant > > > > What would be the rating for that? > > > > Is it a NEMA or? > > > > Jay > > > > On Sep 9, 2025, at 3:08 PM, Glenn via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Unfortunately codes and standards are constantly changing and inspectors > are trying to catchup and interpret them as quickly as possible to ensure > compliance for safety sake. > > Erring on the side of safety is their job until educated otherwise > > > > -Glenn > > > > On Sep 9, 2025 17:00, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > That's a first for me. The Enphase battery is sealed, but I don't know if > that qualifies as sealed against vapor. > > > > I'd reach out to Enphase to get some guidance on that. It's always > something with these AHJs. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 9, 2025 at 4:13 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > My interpretation of this is that he wants to make sure that the battery > cannot ignite a flammable vapor cloud from gasoline being spilled in > the garage. If he's saying that no electrical equipment that might create > a spark (such as with a relay or switch or circuit breaker) can be below > 18", that may be the case. I might be completely off base here, but I > don't think it has anything to do with it being a battery really, but just > a piece of electrical equipment that might have relays or sparking things > inside? Maybe? In which case... does the 5p have any relays or > contactors, or is it's BMS all solid state? And second question would be > can you document that. > > > > Zeke > > > > --------------------------------- > > Seeking your suggestions and direction. My AHJ - after acknowledging that > the Enphase 5p battery has a floor mount option - now insists that it must > be 18-inches above the garage floor unless I can produce something that > says it is "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant." > > We all know there is no open flame from an ESS and I know the 9540A > depicts a battery at 6-inches. > > Anybody run into this and have suggestions on what I might show back to > the AHJ? > > Howard "Scot" Arey > Owner, Solar CenTex > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Sue at midnitesolar.com Wed Sep 10 08:49:05 2025 From: Sue at midnitesolar.com (Sue Stankevitz) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2025 12:49:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant In-Reply-To: References: <35C6469E-0EC5-4AF0-92F8-7BF26ECBBDFF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, To my knowledge the PF batteries do not have a C1D2 rating but that would be a question for one of the Midnite Power reps on this page. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DC222F.C2EC5DF0] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2025 8:35 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Chris Schaefer Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant So Sue, where does the MN PowerFlo 16 product stand in regards to class I, div II rating? Christopher On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 6:58 AM Sue Stankevitz via RE-wrenches > wrote: They may be looking for the Class 1 Div 2 rating with means that it has been designed to safely operate in environments where flammable vapors or gases exist and have the potential to rise to ignitable concentrations. Midnite had to get a charge controller certified to that standard several years ago. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DC222F.C2EC5DF0] From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, September 9, 2025 6:27 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jay > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant What would be the rating for that? Is it a NEMA or? Jay On Sep 9, 2025, at 3:08 PM, Glenn via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Unfortunately codes and standards are constantly changing and inspectors are trying to catchup and interpret them as quickly as possible to ensure compliance for safety sake. Erring on the side of safety is their job until educated otherwise -Glenn On Sep 9, 2025 17:00, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: That's a first for me. The Enphase battery is sealed, but I don't know if that qualifies as sealed against vapor. I'd reach out to Enphase to get some guidance on that. It's always something with these AHJs. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Sep 9, 2025 at 4:13 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches > wrote: My interpretation of this is that he wants to make sure that the battery cannot ignite a flammable vapor cloud from gasoline being spilled in the garage. If he's saying that no electrical equipment that might create a spark (such as with a relay or switch or circuit breaker) can be below 18", that may be the case. I might be completely off base here, but I don't think it has anything to do with it being a battery really, but just a piece of electrical equipment that might have relays or sparking things inside? Maybe? In which case... does the 5p have any relays or contactors, or is it's BMS all solid state? And second question would be can you document that. Zeke --------------------------------- Seeking your suggestions and direction. My AHJ - after acknowledging that the Enphase 5p battery has a floor mount option - now insists that it must be 18-inches above the garage floor unless I can produce something that says it is "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant." We all know there is no open flame from an ESS and I know the 9540A depicts a battery at 6-inches. Anybody run into this and have suggestions on what I might show back to the AHJ? Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s [Image removed by sender.] Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [Image removed by sender.] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD0000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: ~WRD0000.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Wed Sep 10 11:27:37 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2025 08:27:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant In-Reply-To: References: <35C6469E-0EC5-4AF0-92F8-7BF26ECBBDFF@gmail.com> Message-ID: The C1D2 (Class I, Division 2) rating applies to equipment intended for use in potentially explosive environments. The PF16 is not suitable for this type of installation, as it would require a NEMA 4X (or higher) enclosure, and all conduit and connections would also need to be rated for C1D2 compliance. Additionally, most themselves are not tested for C1D2 environments. If your AHJ is requiring C1D2-rated equipment, you would need to explore industrial-rated equipment designed specifically for hazardous locations. Be aware the battery would come with a increase in cost to meet this requirement. I guess you could look at relocating the battery installation outside of the classified (explosive gas) area. This would allow for the use of standard equipment without the need for C1D2-rated components. It may also be helpful for the AHJ to review the UL 9540A test method, which demonstrates how the battery system behaves under thermal runaway conditions. This can provide important context for risk assessment and proper installation practices. On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 5:50 AM Sue Stankevitz via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Chris, > > To my knowledge the PF batteries do not have a C1D2 rating but that would > be a question for one of the Midnite Power reps on this page. > > > > Sue Stankevitz > MidNite Solar, Inc. > (360) 403-7207 (XT122) > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 10, 2025 8:35 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Chris Schaefer > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant > > > > So Sue, where does the MN PowerFlo 16 product stand in regards to class I, > div II rating? > > > > Christopher > > > > On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 6:58 AM Sue Stankevitz via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > They may be looking for the Class 1 Div 2 rating with means that it has > been designed to safely operate in environments where flammable vapors or > gases exist and have the potential to rise to ignitable concentrations. > Midnite had to get a charge controller certified to that standard several > years ago. > > > > Sue Stankevitz > MidNite Solar, Inc. > (360) 403-7207 (XT122) > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jay via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 9, 2025 6:27 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jay > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant > > > > What would be the rating for that? > > > > Is it a NEMA or? > > > > Jay > > > > On Sep 9, 2025, at 3:08 PM, Glenn via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Unfortunately codes and standards are constantly changing and inspectors > are trying to catchup and interpret them as quickly as possible to ensure > compliance for safety sake. > > Erring on the side of safety is their job until educated otherwise > > > > -Glenn > > > > On Sep 9, 2025 17:00, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > That's a first for me. The Enphase battery is sealed, but I don't know if > that qualifies as sealed against vapor. > > > > I'd reach out to Enphase to get some guidance on that. It's always > something with these AHJs. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 9, 2025 at 4:13 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > My interpretation of this is that he wants to make sure that the battery > cannot ignite a flammable vapor cloud from gasoline being spilled in > the garage. If he's saying that no electrical equipment that might create > a spark (such as with a relay or switch or circuit breaker) can be below > 18", that may be the case. I might be completely off base here, but I > don't think it has anything to do with it being a battery really, but just > a piece of electrical equipment that might have relays or sparking things > inside? Maybe? In which case... does the 5p have any relays or > contactors, or is it's BMS all solid state? And second question would be > can you document that. > > > > Zeke > > > > --------------------------------- > > Seeking your suggestions and direction. My AHJ - after acknowledging that > the Enphase 5p battery has a floor mount option - now insists that it must > be 18-inches above the garage floor unless I can produce something that > says it is "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant." > > We all know there is no open flame from an ESS and I know the 9540A > depicts a battery at 6-inches. > > Anybody run into this and have suggestions on what I might show back to > the AHJ? > > Howard "Scot" Arey > Owner, Solar CenTex > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > *[image: Image removed by sender.]* > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD0000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: not available URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Wed Sep 10 12:15:02 2025 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2025 16:15:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant In-Reply-To: References: <35C6469E-0EC5-4AF0-92F8-7BF26ECBBDFF@gmail.com> Message-ID: My question would be is it appropriate for the AHJ to designate the garage space a hazardous location. Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Wed Sep 10 12:18:36 2025 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2025 16:18:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant In-Reply-To: References: <35C6469E-0EC5-4AF0-92F8-7BF26ECBBDFF@gmail.com> Message-ID: A quick AI search say “No”. Article 511does not cover garages of residences. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Sep 10 12:57:01 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2025 12:57:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4012fc3e-485c-458a-b8c0-179fbdef2a15@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Sep 10 14:40:20 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2025 14:40:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rack recognition In-Reply-To: <4012fc3e-485c-458a-b8c0-179fbdef2a15@email.android.com> References: <4012fc3e-485c-458a-b8c0-179fbdef2a15@email.android.com> Message-ID: <3f580b37-705a-4622-9c4e-d46b2594ab59@entech-engineering.com> I was wondering if anyone knew the manufacturer of this racking system. The end plastic cover has what looks like a lightning bolt (sort of) on it, that I messed up with my National Geographic photography skills.  The modules where clamped on the long side to the channel. We don't get many ground mounted systems at 10' high in our hurricane prone area, so just wondering. Looks pretty robust, but I could flex the modules where they intersect on the short side.   Thanks for any help.  Chris -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Back rack.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 249159 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Front rack rail.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 431349 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Sep 10 15:59:30 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2025 15:59:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rack recognition In-Reply-To: <3f580b37-705a-4622-9c4e-d46b2594ab59@entech-engineering.com> References: <4012fc3e-485c-458a-b8c0-179fbdef2a15@email.android.com> <3f580b37-705a-4622-9c4e-d46b2594ab59@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: I would say Sunmodo. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 2:41 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I was wondering if anyone knew the manufacturer of this racking system. > The end plastic cover has what looks like a lightning bolt (sort of) on it, > that I messed up with my National Geographic photography skills. The > modules where clamped on the long side to the channel. We don't get many > ground mounted systems at 10' high in our hurricane prone area, so just > wondering. Looks pretty robust, but I could flex the modules where they > intersect on the short side. Thanks for any help. Chris > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Back rack.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 249159 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Front rack rail.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 431349 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Sep 10 16:33:07 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2025 13:33:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rack recognition In-Reply-To: References: <4012fc3e-485c-458a-b8c0-179fbdef2a15@email.android.com> <3f580b37-705a-4622-9c4e-d46b2594ab59@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Indeed, Sunmodo. Here is a cutsheet - https://sunmodo.com/wp-content/uploads/SunTurf-Ground-and-Elevated-Flat-CutSheet-2025-08.pdf -August On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 1:00 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I would say Sunmodo. > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > > On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 2:41 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I was wondering if anyone knew the manufacturer of this racking system. >> The end plastic cover has what looks like a lightning bolt (sort of) on it, >> that I messed up with my National Geographic photography skills. The >> modules where clamped on the long side to the channel. We don't get many >> ground mounted systems at 10' high in our hurricane prone area, so just >> wondering. Looks pretty robust, but I could flex the modules where they >> intersect on the short side. Thanks for any help. Chris >> >> >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel, PE >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> (401) 447-5773 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Back rack.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 249159 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Front rack rail.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 431349 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Sep 10 17:23:46 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2025 17:23:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO with Powerflo and Solar Assistant Message-ID: Is anyone using Midnite AIO and Powerflo16 with Solar Assistant? I have my first system with this configuration, and Solar Assistant says the battery capacity is 260ah. The Powerflo16 is 314ah, but in this case, I have seven Powerflo units for a total of 2198ah. This is throwing off the battery SOC rate of change figure. Also, the Grid Voltage is reading 120V rather than 240V. It's a split-phase system. The data in the Midnite Pro app is correct, with 2198aH displayed when looking at the master inverter, and the L1 and L2 voltages are properly displayed. It looks like the AIO is not sending the correct data to SA to be displayed there. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Wed Sep 10 18:10:19 2025 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2025 15:10:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PointGuard issues Message-ID: <19935ae0027.7b00152f77971.2028234346827396863@greenwired.com> Hello Wrenches,                     Just wanted to see if anyone has had any luck with the PointGuard system? Its got a lot of cool features but we are having a doozy of a time getting PTO through PGE. Just keeps getting Pre-Parallel Inspects triggered. Has one else got a PTO with them before? Just trying to figure out if its an issue on our end or something in the form for PGE side? Andrew Perkins Greenwired Purchasing Manger | Technical sales P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 M: 707-932-5595 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd P.O. Box 1686 Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: GreenWired_-_Badge_Logo_-_Color_1.png Type: image/png Size: 111621 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Sep 10 18:18:01 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2025 22:18:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant - Any Enphase Reps on here that might help In-Reply-To: References: <35C6469E-0EC5-4AF0-92F8-7BF26ECBBDFF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Met with AHJ and he says this is an APPLIANCE with an IGNITION SOURCE From definitions IRC R202. [cid:dd297469-5712-4477-babc-580ac02cfac4] Thee definition above carries into Mechanical, Plumbing, and Fuel Gas section of IRC but the ESS section R330 is silent on this. I'll ask Enphase for assistance. Any Enphase reps on here. I don't see any 9540A test results that speak to this concern. I think reading this as an "ignition source" is nuts but this 'argument' not persuasive to AHJ. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Bryce via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2025 10:27 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Bryce Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant The C1D2 (Class I, Division 2) rating applies to equipment intended for use in potentially explosive environments. The PF16 is not suitable for this type of installation, as it would require a NEMA 4X (or higher) enclosure, and all conduit and connections would also need to be rated for C1D2 compliance. Additionally, most themselves are not tested for C1D2 environments. If your AHJ is requiring C1D2-rated equipment, you would need to explore industrial-rated equipment designed specifically for hazardous locations. Be aware the battery would come with a increase in cost to meet this requirement. I guess you could look at relocating the battery installation outside of the classified (explosive gas) area. This would allow for the use of standard equipment without the need for C1D2-rated components. It may also be helpful for the AHJ to review the UL 9540A test method, which demonstrates how the battery system behaves under thermal runaway conditions. This can provide important context for risk assessment and proper installation practices. On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 5:50 AM Sue Stankevitz via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Chris, To my knowledge the PF batteries do not have a C1D2 rating but that would be a question for one of the Midnite Power reps on this page. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:ii_19934288cc44cdccc2] From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2025 8:35 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Chris Schaefer > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant So Sue, where does the MN PowerFlo 16 product stand in regards to class I, div II rating? Christopher On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 6:58 AM Sue Stankevitz via RE-wrenches > wrote: They may be looking for the Class 1 Div 2 rating with means that it has been designed to safely operate in environments where flammable vapors or gases exist and have the potential to rise to ignitable concentrations. Midnite had to get a charge controller certified to that standard several years ago. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:ii_19934288cc44cdccc2] From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, September 9, 2025 6:27 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jay > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant What would be the rating for that? Is it a NEMA or? Jay On Sep 9, 2025, at 3:08 PM, Glenn via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Unfortunately codes and standards are constantly changing and inspectors are trying to catchup and interpret them as quickly as possible to ensure compliance for safety sake. Erring on the side of safety is their job until educated otherwise -Glenn On Sep 9, 2025 17:00, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: That's a first for me. The Enphase battery is sealed, but I don't know if that qualifies as sealed against vapor. I'd reach out to Enphase to get some guidance on that. It's always something with these AHJs. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Sep 9, 2025 at 4:13 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches > wrote: My interpretation of this is that he wants to make sure that the battery cannot ignite a flammable vapor cloud from gasoline being spilled in the garage. If he's saying that no electrical equipment that might create a spark (such as with a relay or switch or circuit breaker) can be below 18", that may be the case. I might be completely off base here, but I don't think it has anything to do with it being a battery really, but just a piece of electrical equipment that might have relays or sparking things inside? Maybe? In which case... does the 5p have any relays or contactors, or is it's BMS all solid state? And second question would be can you document that. Zeke --------------------------------- Seeking your suggestions and direction. My AHJ - after acknowledging that the Enphase 5p battery has a floor mount option - now insists that it must be 18-inches above the garage floor unless I can produce something that says it is "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant." We all know there is no open flame from an ESS and I know the 9540A depicts a battery at 6-inches. Anybody run into this and have suggestions on what I might show back to the AHJ? Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s [Image removed by sender.] Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [Image removed by sender.] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD0000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: ~WRD0000.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Ignition source.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 158493 bytes Desc: Ignition source.jpg URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Sep 11 06:17:26 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2025 10:17:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?My_AHJ_insisting_on_=22Flammable_Vapor_I?= =?utf-8?q?gnition_Resistant=22_18-inch_requirement?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <124b7c72-eaf0-ef05-bb50-244fd522ca6b@floridasolardesigngroup.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-1.png Type: image/png Size: 221971 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Sep 11 14:39:51 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2025 12:39:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] My AHJ insisting on "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant" 18-inch requirement In-Reply-To: <124b7c72-eaf0-ef05-bb50-244fd522ca6b@floridasolardesigngroup.com> References: <124b7c72-eaf0-ef05-bb50-244fd522ca6b@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: <194d08e7-a145-4d9d-8125-738c8dd81233@solarray.com> I second Jason's sentiments.  We need to 'gently' but firmly push back on all these extra code requirements, otherwise we'll be so buried, we won't be able to stay in business.  We've been under attack from various factions since the 1980s, who have thrown unreasonable requirements at us.  Recall utilities requiring gold plated disconnects or million dollar liability policies to grid tie. Many folks are trying to politicize our industry, and we need to let everyone know that energy independence is very American. So is safe, affordable construction. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 9/11/2025 4:17 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > ​I have had AHJs try to shoehorn solar panels into the mechanical code > before. I think your best bet is to argue the applicability of the > mechanical code entirely. Expressio unius est exclusio alterius / The > expression of one thing implies the exclusion of others. If the IRC > authors wanted M1307.3 to apply to ESS, they would have said so in R328. > > I would go with something like: > > This equipment is a UL 9540-listed energy storage system, specifically > tested to the UL 9540A standard. The applicable section of the IRC is > R328 (or 2023 IRC Section 327), not the mechanical code. Chapter 13 > applies to mechanical appliances such as HVAC equipment or combustion > devices—not sealed electrical ESS. This product does not fall under > the scope of M1301.1 and is not subject to M1307.3. > > ​If they don't accept that, I would ask them to: > > Point to the section in M1301.1 that covers ESS. Explain why R328 > doesn’t apply, despite being specifically titled “Energy Storage Systems.” > > > > ​On another subject, I have been involved in another AHJ battle > regarding protection against vehicular traffic, and I have a blog post > on the subject coming out soon. Fortunately, the next Florida Building > Code draft mirrors the IRC, which includes a clear schematic that > clarifies the requirements. > > ​Good luck, and don't let them win! > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 9, 2025 at 3:46 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Seeking your suggestions and direction. My AHJ - after > acknowledging that the Enphase 5p battery has a floor mount option > - now insists that it must be 18-inches above the garage floor > unless I can produce something that says it is "Flammable Vapor > Ignition Resistant." > > We all know there is no open flame from an ESS and I know the > 9540A depicts a battery at 6-inches. > > Anybody run into this and have suggestions on what I might show > back to the AHJ? > > *Howard "Scot" Arey* > *Owner, Solar CenTex* > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > TECL 29755 > 254-300-1228 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-1.png Type: image/png Size: 221971 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Sep 11 17:12:14 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2025 21:12:14 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] My AHJ insisting on "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant" 18-inch requirement In-Reply-To: <194d08e7-a145-4d9d-8125-738c8dd81233@solarray.com> References: <124b7c72-eaf0-ef05-bb50-244fd522ca6b@floridasolardesigngroup.com> <194d08e7-a145-4d9d-8125-738c8dd81233@solarray.com> Message-ID: Jason's well-laid arguments won the day here. Very much the logic you laid out and the AHJ reluctantly conceded the point. He tried going directly to Mechanical Code but I said no, pertinent sections of IMC are in IRC, Ch 12-24. Then he tried saying that IFC had more stringent requirements that R330 (ESS) but I said, no you won't find any reference to 18" in the ESS section of it. And the individual sections of IRC Ch12-24 spell out the 18" inch reqt when appropriate but that is absent from R330. Really appreciate the great feedback, Jason. If nothing else, this was a good exercise in Code refresher for me and to navigate a way-too-complex IRC that is too easily over-applied by an AHJ. At least my own city's AHJ (the site of the project) was open to robust debate and thick-skinned enough to reverse himself. Phew...this would have been an expensive "de-retrofit" And I'll say again, the Enphase ESS in a six battery config is awesome. 24,000-watts of continuous power and "whole house" backup is easily gained. Little long time-wise to wire the six together but it's a nice setup. Very pleased with it. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray Walters via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2025 1:39 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Ray Walters Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] My AHJ insisting on "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant" 18-inch requirement I second Jason's sentiments. We need to 'gently' but firmly push back on all these extra code requirements, otherwise we'll be so buried, we won't be able to stay in business. We've been under attack from various factions since the 1980s, who have thrown unreasonable requirements at us. Recall utilities requiring gold plated disconnects or million dollar liability policies to grid tie. Many folks are trying to politicize our industry, and we need to let everyone know that energy independence is very American. So is safe, affordable construction. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 9/11/2025 4:17 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: ​I have had AHJs try to shoehorn solar panels into the mechanical code before. I think your best bet is to argue the applicability of the mechanical code entirely. Expressio unius est exclusio alterius / The expression of one thing implies the exclusion of others. If the IRC authors wanted M1307.3 to apply to ESS, they would have said so in R328. I would go with something like: This equipment is a UL 9540-listed energy storage system, specifically tested to the UL 9540A standard. The applicable section of the IRC is R328 (or 2023 IRC Section 327), not the mechanical code. Chapter 13 applies to mechanical appliances such as HVAC equipment or combustion devices—not sealed electrical ESS. This product does not fall under the scope of M1301.1 and is not subject to M1307.3. ​If they don't accept that, I would ask them to: Point to the section in M1301.1 that covers ESS. Explain why R328 doesn’t apply, despite being specifically titled “Energy Storage Systems.” ​On another subject, I have been involved in another AHJ battle regarding protection against vehicular traffic, and I have a blog post on the subject coming out soon. Fortunately, the next Florida Building Code draft mirrors the IRC, which includes a clear schematic that clarifies the requirements. ​Good luck, and don't let them win! Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Sep 9, 2025 at 3:46 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches wrote: Seeking your suggestions and direction. My AHJ - after acknowledging that the Enphase 5p battery has a floor mount option - now insists that it must be 18-inches above the garage floor unless I can produce something that says it is "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant." We all know there is no open flame from an ESS and I know the 9540A depicts a battery at 6-inches. Anybody run into this and have suggestions on what I might show back to the AHJ? Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 [cid:part1.B68JO3LC.NlMT0vw6 at solarray.com] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-1.png Type: image/png Size: 221971 bytes Desc: attachment-1.png URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Sep 11 18:06:50 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2025 18:06:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] My AHJ insisting on "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant" 18-inch requirement In-Reply-To: References: <124b7c72-eaf0-ef05-bb50-244fd522ca6b@floridasolardesigngroup.com> <194d08e7-a145-4d9d-8125-738c8dd81233@solarray.com> Message-ID: Awesome! I'm glad it helped. By the way, I just published my article on protecting ESS from vehicular traffic here: https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/protecting-home-batteries-from-vehicle-impact The IFC already has guidance with a reasonable framework. The Florida Building Code is about to adopt it. I had to dig DEEP to find the code committee amendment on this. I will admit - ChatGPT's Agent Mode with a Plus subscription pointed me in the right direction. The real key takeaway is that the code is trying to protect ESS from the **normal path** of vehicular traffic, not to prevent all calamities. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Sep 11, 2025 at 5:13 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason's well-laid arguments won the day here. Very much the logic you laid > out and the AHJ reluctantly conceded the point. > > He tried going directly to Mechanical Code but I said no, pertinent > sections of IMC are in IRC, Ch 12-24. Then he tried saying that IFC had > more stringent requirements that R330 (ESS) but I said, no you won't find > any reference to 18" in the ESS section of it. And the individual sections > of IRC Ch12-24 spell out the 18" inch reqt when appropriate but that is > absent from R330. > > Really appreciate the great feedback, Jason. If nothing else, this was a > good exercise in Code refresher for me and to navigate a way-too-complex > IRC that is too easily over-applied by an AHJ. At least my own city's AHJ > (the site of the project) was open to robust debate and thick-skinned > enough to reverse himself. > > Phew...this would have been an expensive "de-retrofit" And I'll say again, > the Enphase ESS in a six battery config is awesome. 24,000-watts of > continuous power and "whole house" backup is easily gained. Little long > time-wise to wire the six together but it's a nice setup. Very pleased with > it. > > *Howard "Scot" Arey* > *Owner, Solar CenTex* > 254-300-1228 > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, September 11, 2025 1:39 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Cc:* Ray Walters > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] My AHJ insisting on "Flammable Vapor > Ignition Resistant" 18-inch requirement > > > I second Jason's sentiments. We need to 'gently' but firmly push back on > all these extra code requirements, otherwise we'll be so buried, we won't > be able to stay in business. We've been under attack from various factions > since the 1980s, who have thrown unreasonable requirements at us. Recall > utilities requiring gold plated disconnects or million dollar liability > policies to grid tie. Many folks are trying to politicize our industry, and > we need to let everyone know that energy independence is very American. So > is safe, affordable construction. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 9/11/2025 4:17 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have had AHJs try to shoehorn solar panels into the mechanical code > before. I think your best bet is to argue the applicability of the > mechanical code entirely. Expressio unius est exclusio alterius / The > expression of one thing implies the exclusion of others. If the IRC authors > wanted M1307.3 to apply to ESS, they would have said so in R328. > > I would go with something like: > > This equipment is a UL 9540-listed energy storage system, specifically > tested to the UL 9540A standard. The applicable section of the IRC is R328 > (or 2023 IRC Section 327), not the mechanical code. Chapter 13 applies to > mechanical appliances such as HVAC equipment or combustion devices—not > sealed electrical ESS. This product does not fall under the scope of > M1301.1 and is not subject to M1307.3. > > If they don't accept that, I would ask them to: > > Point to the section in M1301.1 that covers ESS. Explain why R328 doesn’t > apply, despite being specifically titled “Energy Storage Systems.” > > > > On another subject, I have been involved in another AHJ battle regarding > protection against vehicular traffic, and I have a blog post on the subject > coming out soon. Fortunately, the next Florida Building Code draft mirrors > the IRC, which includes a clear schematic that clarifies the requirements. > > Good luck, and don't let them win! > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 9, 2025 at 3:46 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > > Seeking your suggestions and direction. My AHJ - after acknowledging that > the Enphase 5p battery has a floor mount option - now insists that it must > be 18-inches above the garage floor unless I can produce something that > says it is "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant." > > We all know there is no open flame from an ESS and I know the 9540A > depicts a battery at 6-inches. > > Anybody run into this and have suggestions on what I might show back to > the AHJ? > > *Howard "Scot" Arey* > *Owner, Solar CenTex* > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > TECL 29755 > 254-300-1228 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-1.png Type: image/png Size: 221971 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Sep 11 22:07:10 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Scot Arey) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2025 21:07:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] My AHJ insisting on "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant" 18-inch requirement In-Reply-To: References: <124b7c72-eaf0-ef05-bb50-244fd522ca6b@floridasolardesigngroup.com> <194d08e7-a145-4d9d-8125-738c8dd81233@solarray.com> , Message-ID: <1E68E00F-12E1-A842-8272-D8A675AA82A2@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment-1.png Type: image/png Size: 221971 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Sep 12 07:22:07 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2025 07:22:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rack recognition In-Reply-To: References: <4012fc3e-485c-458a-b8c0-179fbdef2a15@email.android.com> <3f580b37-705a-4622-9c4e-d46b2594ab59@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <14106010-dd6b-4d93-af8f-eadd68d6b110@entech-engineering.com> Thanks all, I was traveling to the mainland yesterday and did not get to this email account.  Yep, Sunmodo, and thanks again. I had not seen their product before.  Chris On 9/10/2025 4:33 PM, August Goers wrote: > Indeed, Sunmodo. Here is a cutsheet - > https://sunmodo.com/wp-content/uploads/SunTurf-Ground-and-Elevated-Flat-CutSheet-2025-08.pdf > > -August > > > > > On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 1:00 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I would say Sunmodo. > > * > * > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > */Celebrating our 34^st  Anniversary 1991-2025!!/* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > > > On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 2:41 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone knew the manufacturer of this > racking system. The end plastic cover has what looks like a > lightning bolt (sort of) on it, that I messed up with my > National Geographic photography skills.  The modules where > clamped on the long side to the channel. We don't get many > ground mounted systems at 10' high in our hurricane prone > area, so just wondering. Looks pretty robust, but I could flex > the modules where they intersect on the short side.   Thanks > for any help.  Chris > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Back rack.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 249159 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Front rack rail.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 431349 bytes Desc: not available URL: From travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com Fri Sep 12 12:32:32 2025 From: travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com (Travis Knipple) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2025 12:32:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Helping/Advising on a Project in Mali, West Africa Message-ID: Hi all, I'm volunteering to help a project in West Africa (Mali) for a Hospital. If any of you would be willing to share some advice, or bounce ideas off of each other, please let me know and I will reach out to you in a direct email. This project is tricky, as it is also supported by a US organization, so the idea is that we could direct the PV directly to a battery bank, then invert to both 220/380, 50 HZ, 3 Phase on one inverter and 120/240, 60Hz, Split Phase on a second inverter. Total kW load for the building is 45kW. I'm going to have quite a few questions, but today's question is....are there any inverter brands that could share a battery bank (assumed as 48V, unless a better suggestion is out there). OR, am I better off to have independent completely independent systems? -Travis -- Travis Knipple Senior Engineer Hudson Solar Solutions LLC Rhinebeck, NY 12572 518-539-8040 x408 | travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com PVIP# PV-111821-013612 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Sep 12 13:22:46 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2025 11:22:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Helping/Advising on a Project in Mali, West Africa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <799831b2-55c1-4052-bee2-40015e3770d8@solarray.com> As long as the PV is going DC through a charge controller direct to the batteries, there's no reason you can't have 2 separate inverters on the same battery.  I've done that before.  Just be careful with grounding and bonding. I've done a fair share of aide work over the years, including Tanzania, Haiti, Puerto Rico, and Morocco.  Drop me a line if you need any help. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar On 9/12/2025 10:32 AM, Travis Knipple via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm volunteering to help a project in West Africa (Mali) for a Hospital. > If any of you would be willing to share some advice, or bounce ideas > off of each other, please let me know and I will reach out to you in a > direct email. > > This project is tricky, as it is also supported by a US organization, > so the idea is that we could direct the PV directly to a battery bank, > then invert to both 220/380, 50 HZ, 3 Phase on one inverter and > 120/240, 60Hz, Split Phase on a second inverter. > Total kW load for the building is 45kW. > > I'm going to have quite a few questions, but today's question > is....are there any inverter brands that could share a battery bank > (assumed as 48V, unless a better suggestion is out there). > OR, am I better off to have independent completely independent systems? > > -Travis > > -- > Travis Knipple > Senior Engineer > Hudson Solar Solutions LLC > Rhinebeck, NY 12572 > 518-539-8040 x408 | travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com > > PVIP# PV-111821-013612 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Sep 13 11:25:26 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2025 11:25:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Most dependable Lithium - inverter setup Message-ID: Having followed the battery - inverter discussions with interest, it seems like a lot of communication problems are encountered. It seems like the least problematic setups are Midnite batteries and inverters. EG4 setups seem to be getting good ratings also, with the possibility of having short lived inverters. Would you say that this is an accurate assessment? Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Sep 14 10:31:09 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2025 10:31:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Most dependable Lithium - inverter setup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Although I only have a handful of Midnite systems up and running, I will say that the Powerflo16 battery to AIO setup is dead easy. No dip switches (YAY!) No discovery process. They just work. I really like it. The downside is that the app is very limited in terms of visibility into the individual battery capacities. The only real way to determine if they are all working is to view the aH capacity figure that is displayed inconspicuously in the app. They include comm cables with each battery for both inverter to battery comms (special pinout, only needed for the master battery) and a straight-through Cat5 cable for interbattery communication. Oddly, the AIO defaults to PYLON protocol, so the first order of business is to change that to "Midnite" in the battery settings. And as I mentioned in another thread, Midnite doesn't seem to send the right aH capacity to Solar Assistant (I am working with SA support on a workaround). Pro tip: I don't think it is documented, or certainly not well documented, but you only need to turn on the master battery. All others should turn on in sequence, as long as the circuit breakers are all on first. On my first installation, I purposefully broke the communication daisy chain temporarily to see what happened, and everything kept working. There was no inverter shutdown, parallel fault, etc. The AIO simply renegotiated the new quantity of batteries in the chain and displayed the new aH rating for the quantity of batteries still in the comms sequence. That is a huge benefit over other batteries and inverters that go into crisis mode and shut down when communications are lost. EG4 works great after the initial setup, but it's not as simple and straightforward as Midnite. You have to dig into the menus to configure the protocols on both the batteries and inverters. I believe I have called for support on every single installation for one reason or another, but found the support to be very easy to reach, knowledgeable, and efficient. Again, this is based only on a handful of installations. I would not call my opinions statistically significant, but I have no problem recommending either setup. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sat, Sep 13, 2025 at 11:25 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Having followed the battery - inverter discussions with interest, it seems > like a lot of communication problems are encountered. > > It seems like the least problematic setups are Midnite batteries and > inverters. EG4 setups seem to be getting good ratings also, with the > possibility of having short lived inverters. > > Would you say that this is an accurate assessment? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Sep 14 12:21:15 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2025 09:21:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] My AHJ insisting on "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant" 18-inch requirement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <932c70d1a23eb83a2e227cfecc9f9d29@sti.net> Same answer from me... Do what they want and fix it later. Wire the extra length for a floor mount and get the inspection. I can see his point a bit with BMS electronics in there. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-09-09 12:44 pm, scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches wrote: > Seeking your suggestions and direction. My AHJ - after acknowledging > that the Enphase 5p battery has a floor mount option - now insists that > it must be 18-inches above the garage floor unless I can produce > something that says it is "Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant." > > We all know there is no open flame from an ESS and I know the 9540A > depicts a battery at 6-inches. > > Anybody run into this and have suggestions on what I might show back to > the AHJ? > > Howard "Scot" Arey > Owner, Solar CenTex > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > TECL 29755 > 254-300-1228 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 12:58:42 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2025 09:58:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Most dependable Lithium - inverter setup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey team wrenches, I ran a lab for years and the cheapest flashes battery's all failed, Blue planet is a great battery but they have moved out of the 48 vdc market, Fortress filled that void and l have only one warranty issue, a cracked display and they were quick to get one shipped. LiFePo4 aka LFP works and is very stable, I used to only run with outback but added solark to the list with great success, battery comms are good, it is an all in one so time will tell. I do my best to stay with manufactures that have time in the industry and did not buy the competition just to kill it. What l can say is buyer beware, some of these newbies will be gone along with the warranty, not all but some. I am not an invester and will look very closely at who a new manufacture is befor putting my money and name behind it. Fun times On Sun, Sep 14, 2025, 7:31 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Although I only have a handful of Midnite systems up and running, I will > say that the Powerflo16 battery to AIO setup is dead easy. No dip switches > (YAY!) No discovery process. They just work. I really like it. The downside > is that the app is very limited in terms of visibility into the individual > battery capacities. The only real way to determine if they are all working > is to view the aH capacity figure that is displayed inconspicuously in the > app. They include comm cables with each battery for both inverter to > battery comms (special pinout, only needed for the master battery) and a > straight-through Cat5 cable for interbattery communication. Oddly, the AIO > defaults to PYLON protocol, so the first order of business is to change > that to > "Midnite" in the battery settings. And as I mentioned in another thread, > Midnite doesn't seem to send the right aH capacity to Solar Assistant (I am > working with SA support on a workaround). > > Pro tip: I don't think it is documented, or certainly not well documented, > but you only need to turn on the master battery. All others should turn on > in sequence, as long as the circuit breakers are all on first. > > On my first installation, I purposefully broke the communication daisy > chain temporarily to see what happened, and everything kept working. There > was no inverter shutdown, parallel fault, etc. The AIO simply renegotiated > the new quantity of batteries in the chain and displayed the new aH rating > for the quantity of batteries still in the comms sequence. That is a huge > benefit over other batteries and inverters that go into crisis mode and > shut down when communications are lost. > > EG4 works great after the initial setup, but it's not as simple and > straightforward as Midnite. You have to dig into the menus to configure the > protocols on both the batteries and inverters. I believe I have called for > support on every single installation for one reason or another, but found > the support to be very easy to reach, knowledgeable, and efficient. Again, > this is based only on a handful of installations. > > I would not call my opinions statistically significant, but I have no > problem recommending either setup. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Sat, Sep 13, 2025 at 11:25 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Having followed the battery - inverter discussions with interest, it >> seems like a lot of communication problems are encountered. >> >> It seems like the least problematic setups are Midnite batteries and >> inverters. EG4 setups seem to be getting good ratings also, with the >> possibility of having short lived inverters. >> >> Would you say that this is an accurate assessment? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> >> *Drake Chamberlin* >> >> *Athens Electric LLC* >> >> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* >> >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* >> -- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Sep 14 13:06:53 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2025 13:06:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Most dependable Lithium - inverter setup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jerry's point about hitching your wagon to the right horse is hitting home with me right now. I'm considering what manufacturers have a strong international presence and are in it for the right reasons. I think 2026 will see a lot of manufacturers leave the market once the grid-tied business tanks with the loss of the tax credit. It's related to this discussion about dependability - the equipment isn't going to be dependable long-term if the manufacturer goes away. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sun, Sep 14, 2025, 12:58 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Hey team wrenches, > I ran a lab for years and the cheapest flashes battery's all failed, Blue > planet is a great battery but they have moved out of the 48 vdc market, > Fortress filled that void and l have only one warranty issue, a cracked > display and they were quick to get one shipped. LiFePo4 aka LFP works and > is very stable, I used to only run with outback but added solark to the > list with great success, battery comms are good, it is an all in one so > time will tell. I do my best to stay with manufactures that have time in > the industry and did not buy the competition just to kill it. What l can > say is buyer beware, some of these newbies will be gone along with the > warranty, not all but some. I am not an invester and will look very closely > at who a new manufacture is befor putting my money and name behind it. > Fun times > > On Sun, Sep 14, 2025, 7:31 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Although I only have a handful of Midnite systems up and running, I will >> say that the Powerflo16 battery to AIO setup is dead easy. No dip switches >> (YAY!) No discovery process. They just work. I really like it. The downside >> is that the app is very limited in terms of visibility into the individual >> battery capacities. The only real way to determine if they are all working >> is to view the aH capacity figure that is displayed inconspicuously in the >> app. They include comm cables with each battery for both inverter to >> battery comms (special pinout, only needed for the master battery) and a >> straight-through Cat5 cable for interbattery communication. Oddly, the AIO >> defaults to PYLON protocol, so the first order of business is to change >> that to >> "Midnite" in the battery settings. And as I mentioned in another thread, >> Midnite doesn't seem to send the right aH capacity to Solar Assistant (I am >> working with SA support on a workaround). >> >> Pro tip: I don't think it is documented, or certainly not well >> documented, but you only need to turn on the master battery. All others >> should turn on in sequence, as long as the circuit breakers are all on >> first. >> >> On my first installation, I purposefully broke the communication daisy >> chain temporarily to see what happened, and everything kept working. There >> was no inverter shutdown, parallel fault, etc. The AIO simply renegotiated >> the new quantity of batteries in the chain and displayed the new aH rating >> for the quantity of batteries still in the comms sequence. That is a huge >> benefit over other batteries and inverters that go into crisis mode and >> shut down when communications are lost. >> >> EG4 works great after the initial setup, but it's not as simple and >> straightforward as Midnite. You have to dig into the menus to configure the >> protocols on both the batteries and inverters. I believe I have called for >> support on every single installation for one reason or another, but found >> the support to be very easy to reach, knowledgeable, and efficient. Again, >> this is based only on a handful of installations. >> >> I would not call my opinions statistically significant, but I have no >> problem recommending either setup. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 13, 2025 at 11:25 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Having followed the battery - inverter discussions with interest, it >>> seems like a lot of communication problems are encountered. >>> >>> It seems like the least problematic setups are Midnite batteries and >>> inverters. EG4 setups seem to be getting good ratings also, with the >>> possibility of having short lived inverters. >>> >>> Would you say that this is an accurate assessment? >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> >>> *Drake Chamberlin* >>> >>> *Athens Electric LLC* >>> >>> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* >>> >>> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* >>> -- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Mon Sep 15 13:14:03 2025 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2025 07:14:03 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] U.S. made lead-free modules Message-ID: Aloha All, Is there a manufacturer making U.S. made lead-free modules? The best I could find was Q.PEAK DUO BLK ML-G10.a+ 415 with 0.1%. Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com Office - 808 345 6762 Direct Line - 808 731 1907 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 14:55:52 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2025 12:55:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] U.S. made lead-free modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60265CD4-9C43-44A2-89B8-258420E4BE4F@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 15:58:21 2025 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Jesse Dahl) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2025 14:58:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] U.S. made lead-free modules In-Reply-To: <60265CD4-9C43-44A2-89B8-258420E4BE4F@gmail.com> References: <60265CD4-9C43-44A2-89B8-258420E4BE4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1D0FFC8B-B2F4-4F31-A81F-99F73B66A43B@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 17:39:06 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2025 15:39:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lynk discover question Message-ID: <9F5C1768-543F-44DF-825D-389AA08C2EE9@gmail.com> I’ve got a customer with the lynk 1. Non web based. 3 batteries with an Outback radian, some years old at this point. Everything is working, the fndc vs the lynk % are not in sync. Which I can probably get right by some tweaks. But my biggest question is the lynk won’t go to 100% or 10 bars. It’s only going to 9. I can’t find any info as to why that would be. I’ve pushed up the charge volts a bit thinking if it was a BMS calibration that would fix it as it has with other lithium batteries, didn’t work. Customer has tried the lynk into each battery and they all read the same bars, which is good. Could it be the 9 bars is now max full due to age? Thanks in advance Jay From pgiroux at mindspring.com Tue Sep 16 18:17:39 2025 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2025 18:17:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pond aeration Message-ID: <005b01dc2757$b7822530$26866f90$@mindspring.com> Hi my fellow wrenchers. Have a local church that has a pond on it, just under an acre and they need a simple but powerful aeration system, solar powered if possible. Running during daylight hours only. Open to anyone's suggestions. Plenty of room to mount 2 to 4+ solar panels to run it. Any and all help appreciated. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar 678 525 0468 Norcross Ga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Tue Sep 16 18:25:36 2025 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2025 22:25:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pond aeration In-Reply-To: <005b01dc2757$b7822530$26866f90$@mindspring.com> References: <005b01dc2757$b7822530$26866f90$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Outdoor water solutions! I have installed many of their systems, some of which have been operating for years. Great equipment, good people. Pieter Huebner Project Manager Off Grid Enterprises ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2025 5:17 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Cc: pgiroux at mindspring.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pond aeration Hi my fellow wrenchers. Have a local church that has a pond on it, just under an acre and they need a simple but powerful aeration system, solar powered if possible. Running during daylight hours only. Open to anyone’s suggestions. Plenty of room to mount 2 to 4+ solar panels to run it. Any and all help appreciated. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar 678 525 0468 Norcross Ga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Sep 16 19:46:57 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2025 16:46:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lynk discover question In-Reply-To: <9F5C1768-543F-44DF-825D-389AA08C2EE9@gmail.com> References: <9F5C1768-543F-44DF-825D-389AA08C2EE9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0052d51f6bc3b35c52db6374bb7d38a4@sti.net> Link1, that is old! All lynk11 now for 5+ years. I do not have the manual but you can get it from Discover. "Some years old" How old? Since you can't see the State of life without a spreadsheet on this without excel and a bit of work, you could look at voltage. your idea is good. Below won't help much but check and wiggle all connections and it sounds like you know it is not a cable. 4.4.2 Verification of AEBus Network Connections To verify that all batteries are communicating over AEBus follow the steps below: * SCP (System Status Screen) → Enter Button → (Select Device Screen) → ▲ and ▼ buttons to select (BattMon 00 / Discover AES) → press Enter/▲/▼ buttons at the same time to enable access to → (Advanced Settings Menu) Product 44-24-2800 42-48-6650 44-48-3000 Capacity 110 Ah x number of batteries 130 Ah x number of batteries 57 Ah x number of batteries If the connection is unsuccessful, check that network is correctly terminated and for any damage to the network cabling, terminators and connectors.. Rectify any problems and verify again. The guitar amps for David St. Hubbins in Spinal tap go to 11 😉 Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-09-16 2:39 pm, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > I've got a customer with the lynk 1. Non web based. > 3 batteries with an Outback radian, some years old at this point. > > Everything is working, the fndc vs the lynk % are not in sync. Which I > can probably get right by some tweaks. > > But my biggest question is the lynk won't go to 100% or 10 bars. It's > only going to 9. > > I can't find any info as to why that would be. I've pushed up the > charge volts a bit thinking if it was a BMS calibration that would fix > it as it has with other lithium batteries, didn't work. > > Customer has tried the lynk into each battery and they all read the > same bars, which is good. > > Could it be the 9 bars is now max full due to age? > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex at sunforgellc.com Wed Sep 17 12:16:42 2025 From: alex at sunforgellc.com (Alex MeVay) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2025 09:16:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pond aeration In-Reply-To: <005b01dc2757$b7822530$26866f90$@mindspring.com> References: <005b01dc2757$b7822530$26866f90$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Hi Peter, One of our long-time customers does this and might have a solution for you: https://www.ixomwatercare.com/applications/lakes-raw-water-reservoirs Best Regards, Alex MeVay Genasun * Blue Sky Energy * http://sunforgellc.com On Tue, Sep 16, 2025 at 3:19 PM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi my fellow wrenchers. Have a local church that has a pond on it, just under an acre and they need a simple but powerful aeration system, solar powered if possible. Running during daylight hours only. Open to anyone’s suggestions. Plenty of room to mount 2 to 4+ solar panels to run it. Any and all help appreciated. > > > > Thx > > Peter Giroux > > American Solar > > 678 525 0468 > > Norcross Ga > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Sep 18 15:01:07 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:01:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC Alpha 450 or 460 Message-ID: I'm on a desperate hunt for just nine modules to finish a job already started. My supplier failed to deliver on their promise, and my backups don't have any unallocated. If anyone has some or where I can get them, please contact me off list. I foresee this as a problem with many items as we approach year end. * Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208www.FloridaSolarDesignGroup.com * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Thu Sep 18 16:30:31 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2025 13:30:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV module supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes... module supply is suddenly getting very weird. One of my main nationwide PV module distributors emailed me on tuesday saying they have NO modules at all till 1st quarter... unless Silfab happens to ship something earlier. 6 months ago they had a good stock of qcells, silfab, hyundai, mission, and REC. I do know of some small pallet and subpallet stashes at some other distributors from cancelled projects, but I just checked, and nothing remotely compatible with the REC 450/460s. Some REC 410s were the only REC at all. Zeke ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:01:07 -0400 > From: Jason Szumlanski > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC Alpha 450 or 460 > Message-ID: > JdBUj7QRYM+afg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I'm on a desperate hunt for just nine modules to finish a job already > started. My supplier failed to deliver on their promise, and my backups > don't have any unallocated. > > If anyone has some or where I can get them, please contact me off list. > > I foresee this as a problem with many items as we approach year end. > > > > > > > > * Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar > Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional > (PVIP)Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956Florida Certified > Electrical Contractor EC13013208www.FloridaSolarDesignGroup.com > * > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250918/d0301681/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 18, Issue 371 > ******************************************** > -- Zeke Yewdall PV Engineer NABCEP #031508-89 zeke at darkforestsolar.com 303-523-3592 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Sep 18 16:39:28 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2025 13:39:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV module supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yea, it is getting pretty wild out there - part of the issue is that Qcells has some of their cells stuck at customs: https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/08/06/qcells-confirms-cbp-has-detained-solar-cell-imports-from-south-korea/ And, then everyone is rushing to get the 30% ITC! We're in the process of evaluating several new modules, including some bifacial products. August On Thu, Sep 18, 2025 at 1:30 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yes... module supply is suddenly getting very weird. One of my main > nationwide PV module distributors emailed me on tuesday saying they have > NO modules at all till 1st quarter... unless Silfab happens to ship > something earlier. 6 months ago they had a good stock of qcells, silfab, > hyundai, mission, and REC. > > I do know of some small pallet and subpallet stashes at some other > distributors from cancelled projects, but I just checked, and nothing > remotely compatible with the REC 450/460s. Some REC 410s were the only REC > at all. > > Zeke > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2025 15:01:07 -0400 >> From: Jason Szumlanski >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC Alpha 450 or 460 >> Message-ID: >> > JdBUj7QRYM+afg at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I'm on a desperate hunt for just nine modules to finish a job already >> started. My supplier failed to deliver on their promise, and my backups >> don't have any unallocated. >> >> If anyone has some or where I can get them, please contact me off list. >> >> I foresee this as a problem with many items as we approach year end. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> * Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal >> Solar >> Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional >> (PVIP)Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956Florida Certified >> Electrical Contractor EC13013208www.FloridaSolarDesignGroup.com >> * >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20250918/d0301681/attachment-0001.htm >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 18, Issue 371 >> ******************************************** >> > > > -- > Zeke Yewdall > PV Engineer > NABCEP #031508-89 > zeke at darkforestsolar.com > 303-523-3592 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Sep 18 17:05:23 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2025 17:05:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC Alpha 450 or 460 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, please contact me off list. I may have a way to help on this. One of my distributors has a small quantity available they think, but have to verify. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Thu, Sep 18, 2025 at 3:03 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm on a desperate hunt for just nine modules to finish a job already > started. My supplier failed to deliver on their promise, and my backups > don't have any unallocated. > > If anyone has some or where I can get them, please contact me off list. > > I foresee this as a problem with many items as we approach year end. > > > > > > > > * Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar > Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional > (PVIP)Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956Florida Certified > Electrical Contractor EC13013208www.FloridaSolarDesignGroup.com > * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 13:43:45 2025 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 13:43:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xanbus Cable question Message-ID: <5B0A2A59-33EF-4E4F-B531-DA0892C79F34@gmail.com> Hi all, Is the Schneider “Xanbus” cable a special cable, or just an Cat5/6 Ethernet cable? Is there a spec for it? I’m trying to add an “Insight Home” to a XW Pro 6848 & the “Insight Home” does not come with the “Xanbus” cable needed to incorporate it in to the network. One of my distributors said it’s a plain ole RS485 cable. Thanks ahead of time! Amanda Potter Energy Storage Systems NABCEP PVIP Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC (315) 212-2114 From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Sep 19 13:54:45 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 12:54:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xanbus Cable question In-Reply-To: <5B0A2A59-33EF-4E4F-B531-DA0892C79F34@gmail.com> References: <5B0A2A59-33EF-4E4F-B531-DA0892C79F34@gmail.com> Message-ID: Amanda, It is a standard ethernet cable Type B, which is patterned after this layout.  All 8 pins are needed as far as I know, so just get a “regular” cable. Also, if you are plugging the cable into the XW-MPPT-60-150V charge controller, you will want to trim the extra plastic strain relief that premade cables come with so the wiring compartment cover screw column can avoid the cable strain relief. ;-) Are you adding the the InsightHome to add Battery SOC information to InsightCloud? Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Sep 19, 2025, at 12:43 PM, Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi all, > Is the Schneider “Xanbus” cable a special cable, or just an Cat5/6 Ethernet cable? > Is there a spec for it? > > I’m trying to add an “Insight Home” to a XW Pro 6848 & the “Insight Home” does not come with the “Xanbus” cable needed to incorporate it in to the network. > > One of my distributors said it’s a plain ole RS485 cable. > > Thanks ahead of time! > > Amanda Potter > Energy Storage Systems > NABCEP PVIP > Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC > (315) 212-2114 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Know the RJ45 Color Code for Easy Connections and Repairs ....jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 65500 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 13:55:37 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 10:55:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xanbus Cable question In-Reply-To: <5B0A2A59-33EF-4E4F-B531-DA0892C79F34@gmail.com> References: <5B0A2A59-33EF-4E4F-B531-DA0892C79F34@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, Cat 5/6e On Fri, Sep 19, 2025 at 10:44 AM Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > Is the Schneider “Xanbus” cable a special cable, or just an Cat5/6 > Ethernet cable? > Is there a spec for it? > > I’m trying to add an “Insight Home” to a XW Pro 6848 & the “Insight Home” > does not come with the “Xanbus” cable needed to incorporate it in to the > network. > > One of my distributors said it’s a plain ole RS485 cable. > > Thanks ahead of time! > > Amanda Potter > Energy Storage Systems > NABCEP PVIP > Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC > (315) 212-2114 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Fri Sep 19 13:57:57 2025 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 11:57:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xanbus Cable question In-Reply-To: <5B0A2A59-33EF-4E4F-B531-DA0892C79F34@gmail.com> References: <5B0A2A59-33EF-4E4F-B531-DA0892C79F34@gmail.com> Message-ID: I decommissioned a Schneider system this week and all the comms cables I removed from there were T-586B (e.g. standard ethernet). Cheers, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] Sam Haraldson Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 14:27:56 2025 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 14:27:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xanbus Cable question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86FEF36F-4FF4-4DFB-BFC5-5074DA9B5C53@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Sep 19 15:17:14 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2025 19:17:14 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xanbus Cable question In-Reply-To: <5B0A2A59-33EF-4E4F-B531-DA0892C79F34@gmail.com> References: <5B0A2A59-33EF-4E4F-B531-DA0892C79F34@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's a regular Cat5/6 Ethernet cable. Pay attention to termination, though. The Insight Home boxes are internally terminated. So that means it needs to be at the end of the Xanbus chain. The previous models had two RJ45 ports so you could wire the device mid-Xanbus. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches Sent: September-19-25 10:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Amanda Potter Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xanbus Cable question Hi all, Is the Schneider “Xanbus” cable a special cable, or just an Cat5/6 Ethernet cable? Is there a spec for it? I’m trying to add an “Insight Home” to a XW Pro 6848 & the “Insight Home” does not come with the “Xanbus” cable needed to incorporate it in to the network. One of my distributors said it’s a plain ole RS485 cable. Thanks ahead of time! Amanda Potter Energy Storage Systems NABCEP PVIP Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC (315) 212-2114 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Sep 21 16:31:50 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2025 13:31:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xanbus Cable question In-Reply-To: <5B0A2A59-33EF-4E4F-B531-DA0892C79F34@gmail.com> References: <5B0A2A59-33EF-4E4F-B531-DA0892C79F34@gmail.com> Message-ID: Cat5/6 Ethernet cable? Yes a standard one will work! No crossover cables Is there a spec for it? There are and one of the big ones to break is using short cables in big systems. 2 meters is best. There is an overall length limit of 130 feet and a few more. Use the routing slots and stay away from ac and dc wiring or cross at 90 degrees. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-09-19 10:43 am, Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi all, > Is the Schneider "Xanbus" cable a special cable, or just an Cat5/6 > Ethernet cable? > Is there a spec for it? > > I'm trying to add an "Insight Home" to a XW Pro 6848 & the "Insight > Home" does not come with the "Xanbus" cable needed to incorporate it in > to the network. > > One of my distributors said it's a plain ole RS485 cable. > > Thanks ahead of time! > > Amanda Potter > Energy Storage Systems > NABCEP PVIP > Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC > (315) 212-2114 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 23 10:47:41 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2025 10:47:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It was only a matter of time. HomeGrid is denying warranty on a BMS that I did not install. I can't prove when it was purchased or installed, but the original installer never registered it or connected it to the Internet. It was likely installed just over a year ago, perhaps 18 months. There was no Internet on site at the initial time of installation. What a garbage warranty policy. In this case, the BMS seems to be working behind the scenes. The battery modules are charging and discharging (confirmed with EMS Tools). The problem is that the LCD display shows all zeroes, and the unit will not work in parallel with the three other stacks. It is causing a parallel error and shutting down the whole house. I did exhaustive diagnostics on it with HomeGrid support, and they sent me a "CANalyst-II" tool to try to unbrick or update the faulty unit. All attempts to recover the unit failed, but I can "see" the whole stack of battery modules through the BMS's RS232 port. So they're going to further alienate a customer over a clearly faulty BMS unit that should be replaced under warranty. Not smart. I will reiterate my recommendation against this brand for off-grid use. It's simply not resilient enough and too hard to service/maintain. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 9:17 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet > connectivity on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are > both Gen 3. > > One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site with > one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even > recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. > > The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to today. > One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally that is > low voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but customer > service wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? That's not > a solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens. > > Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for diagnostics > at a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a Windows laptop > and a battery charger is not ideal for sure. > > The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today > remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which > isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and > we're sending you a new one, valued customer." > > No such luck. > > Jason > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the internet. >> Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will likely be >> imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the others and >> charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it may be an >> rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. Zero issues >> yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really struck a nerve as >> they only just recently got their internet monitoring functional.. having >> to go back to every site is a serious pain just to ensure what should be a >> basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to contact me offsite if you >> have any other questions I might be able to help with. >> Tyrone Houck >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >> 541-787-1366 >> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >> >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right now. >>> There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For >>> those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single >>> BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a >>> circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication >>> number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional >>> stacks with communication cabling. >>> >>> The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What will >>> happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then shut >>> down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system >>> shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any >>> stack. >>> >>> That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just >>> shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change >>> all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to >>> re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This >>> is all very time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut >>> down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it >>> off. The whole system goes haywire. >>> >>> Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users >>> need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer >>> service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the >>> stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is >>> critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one >>> of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack >>> and charge it to 100% with an external charger. >>> >>> By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost >>> pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this >>> not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me >>> that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it >>> happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid >>> system. >>> >>> I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this >>> respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn >>> off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a >>> fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery >>> modules. >>> >>> Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic >>> RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at >>> almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the >>> case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't >>> have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. >>> Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my >>> opinion. >>> >>> I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution to >>> these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good >>> success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers >>> purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the >>> cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. >>> >>> Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 23 11:01:40 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2025 09:01:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 23 11:16:37 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2025 15:16:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I intend to get the stacks Internet connected on my next visit. They just got Starlink at this remote location. The batteries were being used for power during the new home construction when there was no Internet on site. I'm doubtful that the faulty BMS will be able to make a connection now, but who knows.  It seems like the Internet connectivity of these batteries is pretty useless anyway. The app certainly is. And customer support never asks you if it's online - they require a Windows laptop, special cables, and remote support software to do diagnostics. It seems the only time WiFi comes up is when they want to deny a warranty claim.  Based on my conversations with customer service, which again, seems very competent, efficient, and patient, it became apparent that their Chinese overlords are probably calling the shots. I didn't get the sense that the RMA escalation procedure was going anywhere useful. They had the lowest level customer support agent get back to me with the bad news via email. I am appealing the decision, but won't hold my breath. Meanwhile, the homeowner is suffering with batteries not communicating, a 25% reduction in capacity, and uncertainty on where to go from here. Bottom line: Must be Internet Connected = Not Suitable for Off-Grid Use Oh, by the way, HomeGrid and Sol-Ark are pointing fingers at each other about the master BMS in this system not communicating properly with a Sol-Ark 15K. The BMS is recognized for a few seconds, with the Sol-Ark reporting the correct SOC% from the battery on the main screen, then it reverts to Voltage mode automatically. There is no information displayed in the Lithium Batt menu.  Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///wAAACwAAAAAAQABAAACAkQBADs=3D] On Tue, Sep 23, 2025 at 11:01 AM Jay wrote: > You’ve convinced me to never touch a home grid.  > > > Out of curiosity, did the system get web connected at somepoint? > > > > > On Sep 23, 2025, at 8:48 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > > > wrote: > > >  > > It was only a matter of time. HomeGrid is denying warranty on a BMS that I > > did not install. I can't prove when it was purchased or installed, but the > > original installer never registered it or connected it to the Internet. It > > was likely installed just over a year ago, perhaps 18 months. There was no > > Internet on site at the initial time of installation. What a garbage > > warranty policy. > > > > > > In this case, the BMS seems to be working behind the scenes. The battery > > modules are charging and discharging (confirmed with EMS Tools). The problem > > is that the LCD display shows all zeroes, and the unit will not work in > > parallel with the three other stacks. It is causing a parallel error and > > shutting down the whole house. > > > > > > I did exhaustive diagnostics on it with HomeGrid support, and they sent me a > > "CANalyst-II" tool to try to unbrick or update the faulty unit. All attempts > > to recover the unit failed, but I can "see" the whole stack of battery > > modules through the BMS's RS232 port.  > > > > > > So they're going to further alienate a customer over a clearly faulty BMS > > unit that should be replaced under warranty. Not smart. > > > > > > > > I will reiterate my recommendation against this brand for off-grid use. It's > > simply not resilient enough and too hard to service/maintain. > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 9:17 PM Jason Szumlanski > floridasolardesigngroup.com [jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com]> wrote: > > > > > For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet > > > connectivity on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are > > > both Gen 3. > > > > > > > > > One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site with > > > one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even > > > recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. > > > > > > > > > The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to today. > > > One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally that is > > > low voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but customer > > > service wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? That's > > > not a solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens.  > > > > > > > > > Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for diagnostics > > > at a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a Windows > > > laptop and a battery charger is not ideal for sure.  > > > > > > > > > The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today > > > remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which > > > isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and > > > we're sending you a new one, valued customer." > > > > > > > > > No such luck.  > > > > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the internet. > > > > Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will likely be > > > > imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the others > > > > and charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it may > > > > be an rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. > > > > Zero issues yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really > > > > struck a nerve as they only just recently got their internet monitoring > > > > functional.. having to go back to every site is a serious pain just to > > > > ensure what should be a basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to > > > > contact me offsite if you have any other questions I might be able > > > > to  help with. > > > > Tyrone Houck > > > > Oregon Solarworks LLC  > > > > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > > > > 541-787-1366  > > > > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com [tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com] > > > > > > > >     > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right > > > > > now. There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error > > > > > state. For those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are > > > > > stacked with a single BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. > > > > > Each battery module has a circuit breaker and dip switches to identify > > > > > the battery communication number and location in the stack. Each BMS > > > > > can be paralleled to additional stacks with communication cabling.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What > > > > > will happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and > > > > > then shut down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and > > > > > the system shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals > > > > > on the BMS of any stack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just > > > > > shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically > > > > > change all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS > > > > > to re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of > > > > > parallel). This is all very time consuming and requires the inverter > > > > > system to be shut down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, > > > > > you can't just turn it off. The whole system goes haywire.  > > > > >   > > > > > Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users > > > > > need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer > > > > > service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery > > > > > in the stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where > > > > > uptime is critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was > > > > > diagnosed as one of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to > > > > > take it out of the stack and charge it to 100% with an external > > > > > charger.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost > > > > > pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for > > > > > this not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested > > > > > to me that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why > > > > > it happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an > > > > > off-grid system.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this > > > > > respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply > > > > > turn off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In > > > > > fact, a fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of > > > > > battery modules.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic > > > > > RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at > > > > > almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble > > > > > the case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which > > > > > I don't have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the > > > > > battery case. Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is > > > > > their problem in my opinion.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution > > > > > to these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty > > > > > good success installing some that I sold and quite a few that > > > > > consumers purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's > > > > > easier to eat the cost of a battery here and there for customer > > > > > satisfaction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski  > > > > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Sep 23 11:20:31 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2025 10:20:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10519E5D-B185-4744-8E8E-5717804C508C@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Tue Sep 23 11:41:10 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2025 11:41:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not quite the same topic but I am feeling more comfortable sticking with Fortress Power e-flex and e vault. They don't need to be connected to the internet for warranty purposes but it makes troubleshooting easier. I have had several issues but all were taken care with tech support and field repair (lightning strikes, bad internal fuse, shipped with power button on) and they go out of their way to make sure everything is OK. Also field repairable BMS has allowed me to fix any issues with no returns except one and they replaced an E-vault that was 4 years old that had a rare problem in the battery stack. John Blittersdorf Off Grid Vermont On Tue, Sep 23, 2025 at 11:02 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > You’ve convinced me to never touch a home grid. > > Out of curiosity, did the system get web connected at somepoint? > > On Sep 23, 2025, at 8:48 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > It was only a matter of time. HomeGrid is denying warranty on a BMS that I > did not install. I can't prove when it was purchased or installed, but the > original installer never registered it or connected it to the Internet. It > was likely installed just over a year ago, perhaps 18 months. There was no > Internet on site at the initial time of installation. What a garbage > warranty policy. > > In this case, the BMS seems to be working behind the scenes. The battery > modules are charging and discharging (confirmed with EMS Tools). The > problem is that the LCD display shows all zeroes, and the unit will not > work in parallel with the three other stacks. It is causing a parallel > error and shutting down the whole house. > > I did exhaustive diagnostics on it with HomeGrid support, and they sent me > a "CANalyst-II" tool to try to unbrick or update the faulty unit. All > attempts to recover the unit failed, but I can "see" the whole stack of > battery modules through the BMS's RS232 port. > > So they're going to further alienate a customer over a clearly faulty BMS > unit that should be replaced under warranty. Not smart. > > > I will reiterate my recommendation against this brand for off-grid use. > It's simply not resilient enough and too hard to service/maintain. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 9:17 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet >> connectivity on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are >> both Gen 3. >> >> One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site with >> one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even >> recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. >> >> The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to >> today. One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally >> that is low voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but >> customer service wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? >> That's not a solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens. >> >> Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for diagnostics >> at a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a Windows laptop >> and a battery charger is not ideal for sure. >> >> The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today >> remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which >> isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and >> we're sending you a new one, valued customer." >> >> No such luck. >> >> Jason >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the internet. >>> Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will likely be >>> imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the others and >>> charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it may be an >>> rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. Zero issues >>> yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really struck a nerve as >>> they only just recently got their internet monitoring functional.. having >>> to go back to every site is a serious pain just to ensure what should be a >>> basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to contact me offsite if you >>> have any other questions I might be able to help with. >>> Tyrone Houck >>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >>> 541-787-1366 >>> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right now. >>>> There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For >>>> those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single >>>> BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a >>>> circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication >>>> number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional >>>> stacks with communication cabling. >>>> >>>> The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What >>>> will happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then >>>> shut down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system >>>> shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any >>>> stack. >>>> >>>> That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just >>>> shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change >>>> all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to >>>> re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This >>>> is all very time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut >>>> down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it >>>> off. The whole system goes haywire. >>>> >>>> Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users >>>> need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer >>>> service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the >>>> stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is >>>> critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one >>>> of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack >>>> and charge it to 100% with an external charger. >>>> >>>> By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost >>>> pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this >>>> not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me >>>> that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it >>>> happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid >>>> system. >>>> >>>> I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this >>>> respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn >>>> off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a >>>> fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery >>>> modules. >>>> >>>> Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic >>>> RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at >>>> almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the >>>> case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't >>>> have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. >>>> Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my >>>> opinion. >>>> >>>> I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution >>>> to these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good >>>> success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers >>>> purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the >>>> cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. >>>> >>>> Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Tue Sep 23 12:19:48 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2025 09:19:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’m also disappointed with HomeGrid’s warranty policy requiring internet connection. I’ve seen individual Homegrid battery modules temporarily glitch out, which threw the whole stack offline. Only when grid power came back up, the battery recovered. HomeGrid’s “water proof” clam shell is low quality, inconvenient, and I’m forced to wonder if it’s really waterproof. On Tue, Sep 23, 2025 at 8:42 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Not quite the same topic but I am feeling more comfortable sticking > with Fortress Power e-flex and e vault. They don't need to be connected to > the internet > for warranty purposes but it makes troubleshooting easier. I have had > several issues but all were taken care with tech support and field repair > (lightning strikes, bad internal fuse, shipped with power button on) and > they go out of their way to make sure everything is OK. Also field > repairable BMS has allowed me to fix any issues with no returns except one > and they replaced an E-vault that was 4 years old > that had a rare problem in the battery stack. > > John Blittersdorf > Off Grid Vermont > > On Tue, Sep 23, 2025 at 11:02 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> You’ve convinced me to never touch a home grid. >> >> Out of curiosity, did the system get web connected at somepoint? >> >> On Sep 23, 2025, at 8:48 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> It was only a matter of time. HomeGrid is denying warranty on a BMS that >> I did not install. I can't prove when it was purchased or installed, but >> the original installer never registered it or connected it to the Internet. >> It was likely installed just over a year ago, perhaps 18 months. There was >> no Internet on site at the initial time of installation. What a garbage >> warranty policy. >> >> In this case, the BMS seems to be working behind the scenes. The battery >> modules are charging and discharging (confirmed with EMS Tools). The >> problem is that the LCD display shows all zeroes, and the unit will not >> work in parallel with the three other stacks. It is causing a parallel >> error and shutting down the whole house. >> >> I did exhaustive diagnostics on it with HomeGrid support, and they sent >> me a "CANalyst-II" tool to try to unbrick or update the faulty unit. All >> attempts to recover the unit failed, but I can "see" the whole stack of >> battery modules through the BMS's RS232 port. >> >> So they're going to further alienate a customer over a clearly faulty BMS >> unit that should be replaced under warranty. Not smart. >> >> >> I will reiterate my recommendation against this brand for off-grid use. >> It's simply not resilient enough and too hard to service/maintain. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 9:17 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet >>> connectivity on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are >>> both Gen 3. >>> >>> One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site >>> with one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even >>> recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. >>> >>> The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to >>> today. One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally >>> that is low voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but >>> customer service wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? >>> That's not a solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens. >>> >>> Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for diagnostics >>> at a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a Windows laptop >>> and a battery charger is not ideal for sure. >>> >>> The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today >>> remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which >>> isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and >>> we're sending you a new one, valued customer." >>> >>> No such luck. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the >>>> internet. Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will >>>> likely be imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the >>>> others and charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it >>>> may be an rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. >>>> Zero issues yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really struck >>>> a nerve as they only just recently got their internet monitoring >>>> functional.. having to go back to every site is a serious pain just to >>>> ensure what should be a basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to >>>> contact me offsite if you have any other questions I might be able to help >>>> with. >>>> Tyrone Houck >>>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>>> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >>>> 541-787-1366 >>>> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right >>>>> now. There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For >>>>> those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single >>>>> BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a >>>>> circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication >>>>> number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional >>>>> stacks with communication cabling. >>>>> >>>>> The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What >>>>> will happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then >>>>> shut down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system >>>>> shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any >>>>> stack. >>>>> >>>>> That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just >>>>> shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change >>>>> all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to >>>>> re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This >>>>> is all very time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut >>>>> down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it >>>>> off. The whole system goes haywire. >>>>> >>>>> Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users >>>>> need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer >>>>> service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the >>>>> stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is >>>>> critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one >>>>> of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack >>>>> and charge it to 100% with an external charger. >>>>> >>>>> By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost >>>>> pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this >>>>> not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me >>>>> that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it >>>>> happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid >>>>> system. >>>>> >>>>> I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this >>>>> respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn >>>>> off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a >>>>> fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery >>>>> modules. >>>>> >>>>> Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic >>>>> RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at >>>>> almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the >>>>> case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't >>>>> have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. >>>>> Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my >>>>> opinion. >>>>> >>>>> I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution >>>>> to these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good >>>>> success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers >>>>> purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the >>>>> cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. >>>>> >>>>> Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 23 14:38:49 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2025 18:38:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: <10519E5D-B185-4744-8E8E-5717804C508C@mavericksolar.com> References: <10519E5D-B185-4744-8E8E-5717804C508C@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <081feaa8-b254-b610-ac23-3de58600d621@floridasolardesigngroup.com> You can purchase the BMS and base unit combination for each stack, but it costs nearly $1,500. I'm not sure if you can purchase the BMS separately from the base unit, but that probably wouldn't significantly impact the price. At this point, it's the principle of the matter. Not warranting something like this is bad business. It can't cost much to fix, and it would be important to understand what happened for future reference and quality assurance purposes. I guess they don't care to understand what happened. I'm going to run this up the chain before I give up and tell the customer they're out of luck. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Sep 23, 2025 at 11:21 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > Will they sell just the BMS instead of having to buy a whole other battery? > > > I know it should be covered under warranty, but buying a BMS is better than > buying a battery. > > > I do have a home grid battery that’s behaved in the same way. I went around in > circles with tech-support. I even bought $200 worth of cables so I can figure > out what happened. But I never figured out what happened. And I don’t think > it’s necessary for a tech-support to take control of my computer in order to > do something that written instructions should be adequate. > > > > > > Thank you, > > > Maverick > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >  • Solar Commander Remote Power >  • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection  > maverick at mavericksolar.com [maverick at mavericksolar.com] > 512-460-9825 > > > > > > > > > On Sep 23, 2025, at 9:48 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > > > wrote: > > >  > > It was only a matter of time. HomeGrid is denying warranty on a BMS that I > > did not install. I can't prove when it was purchased or installed, but the > > original installer never registered it or connected it to the Internet. It > > was likely installed just over a year ago, perhaps 18 months. There was no > > Internet on site at the initial time of installation. What a garbage > > warranty policy. > > > > > > In this case, the BMS seems to be working behind the scenes. The battery > > modules are charging and discharging (confirmed with EMS Tools). The problem > > is that the LCD display shows all zeroes, and the unit will not work in > > parallel with the three other stacks. It is causing a parallel error and > > shutting down the whole house. > > > > > > I did exhaustive diagnostics on it with HomeGrid support, and they sent me a > > "CANalyst-II" tool to try to unbrick or update the faulty unit. All attempts > > to recover the unit failed, but I can "see" the whole stack of battery > > modules through the BMS's RS232 port.  > > > > > > So they're going to further alienate a customer over a clearly faulty BMS > > unit that should be replaced under warranty. Not smart. > > > > > > > > I will reiterate my recommendation against this brand for off-grid use. It's > > simply not resilient enough and too hard to service/maintain. > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > [data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///wAAACwAAAAAAQABAAACAkQBADs=3D] > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 9:17 PM Jason Szumlanski > floridasolardesigngroup.com [jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com]> wrote: > > > > > For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet > > > connectivity on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are > > > both Gen 3. > > > > > > > > > One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site with > > > one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even > > > recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. > > > > > > > > > The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to today. > > > One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally that is > > > low voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but customer > > > service wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? That's > > > not a solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens.  > > > > > > > > > Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for diagnostics > > > at a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a Windows > > > laptop and a battery charger is not ideal for sure.  > > > > > > > > > The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today > > > remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which > > > isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and > > > we're sending you a new one, valued customer." > > > > > > > > > No such luck.  > > > > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the internet. > > > > Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will likely be > > > > imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the others > > > > and charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it may > > > > be an rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. > > > > Zero issues yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really > > > > struck a nerve as they only just recently got their internet monitoring > > > > functional.. having to go back to every site is a serious pain just to > > > > ensure what should be a basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to > > > > contact me offsite if you have any other questions I might be able > > > > to  help with. > > > > Tyrone Houck > > > > Oregon Solarworks LLC  > > > > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > > > > 541-787-1366  > > > > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com [tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com] > > > > > > > >     > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right > > > > > now. There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error > > > > > state. For those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are > > > > > stacked with a single BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. > > > > > Each battery module has a circuit breaker and dip switches to identify > > > > > the battery communication number and location in the stack. Each BMS > > > > > can be paralleled to additional stacks with communication cabling.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What > > > > > will happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and > > > > > then shut down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and > > > > > the system shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals > > > > > on the BMS of any stack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just > > > > > shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically > > > > > change all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS > > > > > to re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of > > > > > parallel). This is all very time consuming and requires the inverter > > > > > system to be shut down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, > > > > > you can't just turn it off. The whole system goes haywire.  > > > > >   > > > > > Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users > > > > > need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer > > > > > service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery > > > > > in the stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where > > > > > uptime is critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was > > > > > diagnosed as one of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to > > > > > take it out of the stack and charge it to 100% with an external > > > > > charger.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost > > > > > pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for > > > > > this not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested > > > > > to me that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why > > > > > it happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an > > > > > off-grid system.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this > > > > > respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply > > > > > turn off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In > > > > > fact, a fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of > > > > > battery modules.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic > > > > > RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at > > > > > almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble > > > > > the case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which > > > > > I don't have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the > > > > > battery case. Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is > > > > > their problem in my opinion.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution > > > > > to these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty > > > > > good success installing some that I sold and quite a few that > > > > > consumers purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's > > > > > easier to eat the cost of a battery here and there for customer > > > > > satisfaction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski  > > > > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 23 17:09:04 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2025 17:09:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO RSD Transmitter Message-ID: Is the AP Smart transmitter in the AIO compatible with Tigo TS4-A-F devices? I assume the Sunspec compatibility makes it so. I have never mixed brands, so I want to make sure! Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Sep 23 17:50:53 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2025 16:50:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: <081feaa8-b254-b610-ac23-3de58600d621@floridasolardesigngroup.com> References: <10519E5D-B185-4744-8E8E-5717804C508C@mavericksolar.com> <081feaa8-b254-b610-ac23-3de58600d621@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: By BMS, you mean the Main BMS, the top of the stack. I thought you meant BMS that is inside of each battery. Oh Boy! That’s a pain and is a whole other level! Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Sep 23, 2025, at 1:38 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > You can purchase the BMS and base unit combination for each stack, but it costs nearly $1,500. I'm not sure if you can purchase the BMS separately from the base unit, but that probably wouldn't significantly impact the price. At this point, it's the principle of the matter. Not warranting something like this is bad business. It can't cost much to fix, and it would be important to understand what happened for future reference and quality assurance purposes. I guess they don't care to understand what happened. > > I'm going to run this up the chain before I give up and tell the customer they're out of luck. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 23, 2025 at 11:21 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Will they sell just the BMS instead of having to buy a whole other battery? >> >> I know it should be covered under warranty, but buying a BMS is better than buying a battery. >> >> I do have a home grid battery that’s behaved in the same way. I went around in circles with tech-support. I even bought $200 worth of cables so I can figure out what happened. But I never figured out what happened. And I don’t think it’s necessary for a tech-support to take control of my computer in order to do something that written instructions should be adequate. >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >>> On Sep 23, 2025, at 9:48 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> It was only a matter of time. HomeGrid is denying warranty on a BMS that I did not install. I can't prove when it was purchased or installed, but the original installer never registered it or connected it to the Internet. It was likely installed just over a year ago, perhaps 18 months. There was no Internet on site at the initial time of installation. What a garbage warranty policy. >>> >>> In this case, the BMS seems to be working behind the scenes. The battery modules are charging and discharging (confirmed with EMS Tools). The problem is that the LCD display shows all zeroes, and the unit will not work in parallel with the three other stacks. It is causing a parallel error and shutting down the whole house. >>> >>> I did exhaustive diagnostics on it with HomeGrid support, and they sent me a "CANalyst-II" tool to try to unbrick or update the faulty unit. All attempts to recover the unit failed, but I can "see" the whole stack of battery modules through the BMS's RS232 port. >>> >>> So they're going to further alienate a customer over a clearly faulty BMS unit that should be replaced under warranty. Not smart. >>> >>> >>> I will reiterate my recommendation against this brand for off-grid use. It's simply not resilient enough and too hard to service/maintain. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 9:17 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: >>>> For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet connectivity on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are both Gen 3. >>>> >>>> One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site with one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. >>>> >>>> The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to today. One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally that is low voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but customer service wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? That's not a solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens. >>>> >>>> Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for diagnostics at a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a Windows laptop and a battery charger is not ideal for sure. >>>> >>>> The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and we're sending you a new one, valued customer." >>>> >>>> No such luck. >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the internet. Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will likely be imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the others and charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it may be an rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. Zero issues yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really struck a nerve as they only just recently got their internet monitoring functional.. having to go back to every site is a serious pain just to ensure what should be a basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to contact me offsite if you have any other questions I might be able to help with. >>>>> Tyrone Houck >>>>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>>>> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >>>>> 541-787-1366 >>>>> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right now. There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional stacks with communication cabling. >>>>>> >>>>>> The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What will happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then shut down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any stack. >>>>>> >>>>>> That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This is all very time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it off. The whole system goes haywire. >>>>>> >>>>>> Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack and charge it to 100% with an external charger. >>>>>> >>>>>> By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid system. >>>>>> >>>>>> I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery modules. >>>>>> >>>>>> Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my opinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution to these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Sep 24 06:48:36 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2025 06:48:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Issues with HomeGrid In-Reply-To: References: <10519E5D-B185-4744-8E8E-5717804C508C@mavericksolar.com> <081feaa8-b254-b610-ac23-3de58600d621@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Message-ID: Yes, I meant the stack BMS on top. It's pretty crazy that I can connect a cable to it and see all of the individual battery units below, and the stack appears to be operating normally, but the stack BMS will not operate in parallel and does not display anything but zeroes on the display. I would think it could be recovered remotely or with software on my laptop, but apparently not. Why they are pushing back on the warranty is a mystery to me. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Sep 23, 2025 at 5:51 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > By BMS, you mean the Main BMS, the top of the stack. I thought you meant > BMS that is inside of each battery. Oh Boy! That’s a pain and is a whole > other level! > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* > * • Solar Commander Remote Power* > > * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection *maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > On Sep 23, 2025, at 1:38 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > You can purchase the BMS and base unit combination for each stack, but it > costs nearly $1,500. I'm not sure if you can purchase the BMS separately > from the base unit, but that probably wouldn't significantly impact the > price. At this point, it's the principle of the matter. Not warranting > something like this is bad business. It can't cost much to fix, and it > would be important to understand what happened for future reference and > quality assurance purposes. I guess they don't care to understand what > happened. > > I'm going to run this up the chain before I give up and tell the customer > they're out of luck. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Sep 23, 2025 at 11:21 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Will they sell just the BMS instead of having to buy a whole other >> battery? >> >> I know it should be covered under warranty, but buying a BMS is better >> than buying a battery. >> >> I do have a home grid battery that’s behaved in the same way. I went >> around in circles with tech-support. I even bought $200 worth of cables so >> I can figure out what happened. But I never figured out what happened. And >> I don’t think it’s necessary for a tech-support to take control of my >> computer in order to do something that written instructions should be >> adequate. >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >> On Sep 23, 2025, at 9:48 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> It was only a matter of time. HomeGrid is denying warranty on a BMS that >> I did not install. I can't prove when it was purchased or installed, but >> the original installer never registered it or connected it to the Internet. >> It was likely installed just over a year ago, perhaps 18 months. There was >> no Internet on site at the initial time of installation. What a garbage >> warranty policy. >> >> In this case, the BMS seems to be working behind the scenes. The battery >> modules are charging and discharging (confirmed with EMS Tools). The >> problem is that the LCD display shows all zeroes, and the unit will not >> work in parallel with the three other stacks. It is causing a parallel >> error and shutting down the whole house. >> >> I did exhaustive diagnostics on it with HomeGrid support, and they sent >> me a "CANalyst-II" tool to try to unbrick or update the faulty unit. All >> attempts to recover the unit failed, but I can "see" the whole stack of >> battery modules through the BMS's RS232 port. >> >> So they're going to further alienate a customer over a clearly faulty BMS >> unit that should be replaced under warranty. Not smart. >> >> >> I will reiterate my recommendation against this brand for off-grid use. >> It's simply not resilient enough and too hard to service/maintain. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 9:17 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> For what it's worth, they haven't said anything about internet >>> connectivity on these two systems I'm dealing with right now, and they are >>> both Gen 3. >>> >>> One site has a bunch of firmware discrepancies, and this is the site >>> with one module that has all cells low voltage. Not sure if it's even >>> recoverable. It's sitting at 39V. >>> >>> The other site has all the same firmware. This is the one I went to >>> today. One of 16 modules (2 full stacks) has one of 15 cells internally >>> that is low voltage. To me, that's a clear warranty swap situation, but >>> customer service wasn't having it. Disassemble the battery and charge it? >>> That's not a solution. It has been escalated. We will see what happens. >>> >>> Clearly we should be able to take these back to the shop for diagnostics >>> at a minimum and get them RMA'd. Requiring the purchase of a Windows laptop >>> and a battery charger is not ideal for sure. >>> >>> The only good thing I can say is customer service took over my PC today >>> remotely and ran diagnostics after installing the required software (which >>> isn't a fast process). I was expecting them to say, "yep it's toast and >>> we're sending you a new one, valued customer." >>> >>> No such luck. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 6:48 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Yep. And the 10 year warranty is only good if connected to the >>>> internet. Firmware update of every module is crucial or else there will >>>> likely be imbalances. You may be able to address it as 1 and shut of the >>>> others and charge it through the bus but if it's cell voltage is too low it >>>> may be an rma situation. I have had similar issues especially with gen 2. >>>> Zero issues yet with any gen 3 modules but the internet thing really struck >>>> a nerve as they only just recently got their internet monitoring >>>> functional.. having to go back to every site is a serious pain just to >>>> ensure what should be a basic warranty. Best of luck and feel free to >>>> contact me offsite if you have any other questions I might be able to help >>>> with. >>>> Tyrone Houck >>>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>>> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >>>> 541-787-1366 >>>> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025, 3:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> I am regretting some HomeGrid Stack'd off-grid installations right >>>>> now. There is a major flaw in the way these function in an error state. For >>>>> those of you that don't know, these 48V batteries are stacked with a single >>>>> BMS on top, covering up to 8 batteries below. Each battery module has a >>>>> circuit breaker and dip switches to identify the battery communication >>>>> number and location in the stack. Each BMS can be paralleled to additional >>>>> stacks with communication cabling. >>>>> >>>>> The issue is when one battery module goes into an error state. What >>>>> will happen is that battery stack's BMS will recognize the error, and then >>>>> shut down the whole stack. This cascades to the other stacks and the system >>>>> shuts down - fails to deliver 48V at the output terminals on the BMS of any >>>>> stack. >>>>> >>>>> That is annoying, but what's even more problematic is you can't just >>>>> shut off the offending battery to bypass it. You need to physically change >>>>> all of the dip switches to bypass it and then reprogram the BMS to >>>>> re-recognize the new module count (after taking it out of parallel). This >>>>> is all very time consuming and requires the inverter system to be shut >>>>> down. Even if a battery is not in an error state, you can't just turn it >>>>> off. The whole system goes haywire. >>>>> >>>>> Once you have it bypassed, you can hook up a RS-232 cable (Mac users >>>>> need not apply) and use their software to gather diagnostics. Customer >>>>> service will then want to do additional diagnostics with the battery in the >>>>> stock, but that is not reasonable in and off-grid system where uptime is >>>>> critical. One of the faulty modules I am dealing with was diagnosed as one >>>>> of 15 cells with low voltage. The "solution" is to take it out of the stack >>>>> and charge it to 100% with an external charger. >>>>> >>>>> By the time I'm done with all of the diagnostic nonsense, I can almost >>>>> pay for a new battery with the lost labor. Isn't the whole idea for this >>>>> not to happen with balancing done automatically? It was suggested to me >>>>> that it didn't get charged to 100% often enough, and that is why it >>>>> happened. That isn't an acceptable reason for failure in an off-grid >>>>> system. >>>>> >>>>> I hate to say this, but EG4 has a far better 5kWh solution in this >>>>> respect. Each module has it's own BMS. When one fails, you can simply turn >>>>> off the circuit breaker and everything else continues to work. In fact, a >>>>> fault in one BMS doesn't take out the whole stack or stacks of battery >>>>> modules. >>>>> >>>>> Back to HomeGrid. When this happens, in my mind this is an automatic >>>>> RMA. They should be replacing these, no questions asked. Especially at >>>>> almost twice the price of EG4. They actually want me to disassemble the >>>>> case of the battery and charge it with an external charger (which I don't >>>>> have) directly from the terminals that are internal to the battery case. >>>>> Totally unacceptable. Whatever is inside that case is their problem in my >>>>> opinion. >>>>> >>>>> I am not selling anymore HomeGrid until I get satisfactory resolution >>>>> to these issues. EG4 isn't perfect, but I have actually had pretty good >>>>> success installing some that I sold and quite a few that consumers >>>>> purchased directly. And at almost half the price, it's easier to eat the >>>>> cost of a battery here and there for customer satisfaction. >>>>> >>>>> Anyone have similar issues with HomeGrid? >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 16:10:23 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2025 14:10:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BYD battery 12kW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had someone ask me about this battery for a new SMA smart inverter. I thought I’d run it by everyone. My searches came up empty so I’m guessing it’s vapor ware? thanks jay > > > Have you ever seen this battery and do you know anyone who sells them? > I have a customer looking for one or two and they are the approved battery for the new SMA smart inverters ( or so my customer told me) > > > > BYD 12.0 kWh Premium HVL Home Batteries - 3 Modules | Battery-Box HVL 12.0 - EcoDirect > Warranty: 10 Years Stock Status: (Out of Stock) Availability: This item has an indefinite lead time, due to import complications. Call for availability. Product Code: BYD-BATTERY-BOX-HVL-12.0 > www.ecodirect.com > BYD 12.0 kWh Premium HVL Home Batteries - 3 Modules | Battery-Box HVL 12.0 > > >  > > Bryan Norkunas > PV-Cables Inc. > 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D > Ferndale CA 95536 > (707) 923-3000 office > www.pv-cables.com > > PV Cables and Accessories - Quality Solar Solutions - PV-Cables, Inc. > Discover premium PV cables and solar wire solutions at PV-Cables, Inc. for all your renewable energy needs. > www.pv-cables.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-Descriptio.png Type: image/png Size: 21244 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Sep 24 16:23:32 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2025 20:23:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BYD battery 12kW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I first became aware of the BYD when I had my 'LG only kinda/sorta works' with the SMA storage inverter debacle. Not many making a high voltage battery now and shockingly to me, seems that 48V has kind of won the "beta/vhs" battle for now. Maybe the new SolarEdge Nexis ESS and inverter tips this again, but to answer your question, didn't find BYD from any "major" distributors during a cursory look. We did just install the latest SMA inverter and we liked it...I'm a sucker for SMA string inverters and we enjoyed using the SunSpec functionality which provides great value. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2025 3:10 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: jay Subject: [RE-wrenches] BYD battery 12kW I had someone ask me about this battery for a new SMA smart inverter. I thought I’d run it by everyone. My searches came up empty so I’m guessing it’s vapor ware? thanks jay Have you ever seen this battery and do you know anyone who sells them? I have a customer looking for one or two and they are the approved battery for the new SMA smart inverters ( or so my customer told me) [https://www.ecodirect.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BYD-BATTERY-BOX-HVL-12.0-2T.jpg] BYD 12.0 kWh Premium HVL Home Batteries - 3 Modules | Battery-Box HVL 12.0 - EcoDirect Warranty: 10 Years Stock Status: (Out of Stock) Availability: This item has an indefinite lead time, due to import complications. Call for availability. Product Code: BYD-BATTERY-BOX-HVL-12.0 www.ecodirect.com BYD 12.0 kWh Premium HVL Home Batteries - 3 Modules | Battery-Box HVL 12.0 [Outlook-Descriptio.png] Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com [https://pv-cables.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/qtq80-ceZI2E-scaled.jpeg] PV Cables and Accessories - Quality Solar Solutions - PV-Cables, Inc. Discover premium PV cables and solar wire solutions at PV-Cables, Inc. for all your renewable energy needs. www.pv-cables.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-Descriptio.png Type: image/png Size: 21244 bytes Desc: Outlook-Descriptio.png URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 16:32:05 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2025 14:32:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BYD battery 12kW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F167880-0C5B-43AE-97F7-80F0531AF5DB@gmail.com> Yeah I always hate when people ask about stuff thats not available. I’ll just tell him he’ll have to find it on his own. thanks jay > On Sep 24, 2025, at 2:23 PM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: > > I first became aware of the BYD when I had my 'LG only kinda/sorta works' with the SMA storage inverter debacle. > > Not many making a high voltage battery now and shockingly to me, seems that 48V has kind of won the "beta/vhs" battle for now. Maybe the new SolarEdge Nexis ESS and inverter tips this again, but to answer your question, didn't find BYD from any "major" distributors during a cursory look. > > We did just install the latest SMA inverter and we liked it...I'm a sucker for SMA string inverters and we enjoyed using the SunSpec functionality which provides great value. > > Howard "Scot" Arey > Owner, Solar CenTex > 254-300-1228 > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of jay via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2025 3:10 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: jay > Subject: [RE-wrenches] BYD battery 12kW > > I had someone ask me about this battery for a new SMA smart inverter. > > I thought I’d run it by everyone. My searches came up empty so I’m guessing it’s vapor ware? > > thanks > > jay >> >> >> Have you ever seen this battery and do you know anyone who sells them? >> I have a customer looking for one or two and they are the approved battery for the new SMA smart inverters ( or so my customer told me) >> >> >> >> BYD 12.0 kWh Premium HVL Home Batteries - 3 Modules | Battery-Box HVL 12.0 - EcoDirect >> Warranty: 10 Years Stock Status: (Out of Stock) Availability: This item has an indefinite lead time, due to import complications. Call for availability. Product Code: BYD-BATTERY-BOX-HVL-12.0 >> www.ecodirect.com >> BYD 12.0 kWh Premium HVL Home Batteries - 3 Modules | Battery-Box HVL 12.0 >> >> >> >> >> >> Bryan Norkunas >> PV-Cables Inc. >> 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D >> Ferndale CA 95536 >> (707) 923-3000 office >> www.pv-cables.com >> >> PV Cables and Accessories - Quality Solar Solutions - PV-Cables, Inc. >> Discover premium PV cables and solar wire solutions at PV-Cables, Inc. for all your renewable energy needs. >> www.pv-cables.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Sep 24 16:35:00 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2025 16:35:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combining Powerwall 3 Message-ID: I have a situation with a utility company that requires us to have a single visible load break disconnect switch that isolates only the "renewable sources" without disconnecting the house loads. To do this, the only way possible seems to be combining the inverters in a load center and then using the main lugs in the load center to go to a fusible disconnect switch, and then the backup load lugs in the Gateway 3. The problem with that is I have not been able to find a 125 amp load center that accepts multiple backfed breaker fasteners. Square D has a 100 amp load center that accepts two breaker hold down kits, but for two Powerwalls we need 125A. Other than going to a panel board with bolt on breakers, can you think of any other way to comply? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group We -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Wed Sep 24 16:39:15 2025 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2025 13:39:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combining Powerwall 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Eaton has a 125A panel that can take two hold down kits. I happen to be installing three of them today ... BR816L125RP Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 [image: sunlightandpower.com] 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 [image: https://www.amicussolar.com/] [image: https://calssa.org/] On Wed, Sep 24, 2025, 1:37 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have a situation with a utility company that requires us to have a > single visible load break disconnect switch that isolates only the > "renewable sources" without disconnecting the house loads. To do this, the > only way possible seems to be combining the inverters in a load center and > then using the main lugs in the load center to go to a fusible disconnect > switch, and then the backup load lugs in the Gateway 3. > > The problem with that is I have not been able to find a 125 amp load > center that accepts multiple backfed breaker fasteners. Square D has a 100 > amp load center that accepts two breaker hold down kits, but for two > Powerwalls we need 125A. > > Other than going to a panel board with bolt on breakers, can you think of > any other way to comply? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > We > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Wed Sep 24 16:43:27 2025 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2025 20:43:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BYD battery 12kW In-Reply-To: <4F167880-0C5B-43AE-97F7-80F0531AF5DB@gmail.com> References: <4F167880-0C5B-43AE-97F7-80F0531AF5DB@gmail.com> Message-ID: I indirectly received a response from SMA this morning and checking with Greentech Renewables to see if they are able to source them as they have them listed on their website: The SMA battery is not yet available. Previously it was going to be self consumption only but when it does come to market it will be a whole home battery. Hopefully that is in the first half of next year (this is to the best of my knowledge of what I’ve heard internally). We do have the Backup Secure and Backup Select available right now. Beyond that, you are correct, the BYD battery is the only currently compatible battery. [Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140] Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com [https://pv-cables.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/qtq80-ceZI2E-scaled.jpeg] PV Cables and Accessories - Quality Solar Solutions - PV-Cables, Inc. Discover premium PV cables and solar wire solutions at PV-Cables, Inc. for all your renewable energy needs. www.pv-cables.com ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2025 1:32 PM To: scot.arey at solarcentex.com Cc: jay ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] BYD battery 12kW Yeah I always hate when people ask about stuff thats not available. I’ll just tell him he’ll have to find it on his own. thanks jay On Sep 24, 2025, at 2:23 PM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: I first became aware of the BYD when I had my 'LG only kinda/sorta works' with the SMA storage inverter debacle. Not many making a high voltage battery now and shockingly to me, seems that 48V has kind of won the "beta/vhs" battle for now. Maybe the new SolarEdge Nexis ESS and inverter tips this again, but to answer your question, didn't find BYD from any "major" distributors during a cursory look. We did just install the latest SMA inverter and we liked it...I'm a sucker for SMA string inverters and we enjoyed using the SunSpec functionality which provides great value. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2025 3:10 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: jay Subject: [RE-wrenches] BYD battery 12kW I had someone ask me about this battery for a new SMA smart inverter. I thought I’d run it by everyone. My searches came up empty so I’m guessing it’s vapor ware? thanks jay Have you ever seen this battery and do you know anyone who sells them? I have a customer looking for one or two and they are the approved battery for the new SMA smart inverters ( or so my customer told me) [https://www.ecodirect.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BYD-BATTERY-BOX-HVL-12.0-2T.jpg] BYD 12.0 kWh Premium HVL Home Batteries - 3 Modules | Battery-Box HVL 12.0 - EcoDirect Warranty: 10 Years Stock Status: (Out of Stock) Availability: This item has an indefinite lead time, due to import complications. Call for availability. Product Code: BYD-BATTERY-BOX-HVL-12.0 www.ecodirect.com BYD 12.0 kWh Premium HVL Home Batteries - 3 Modules | Battery-Box HVL 12.0 Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com [https://pv-cables.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/qtq80-ceZI2E-scaled.jpeg] PV Cables and Accessories - Quality Solar Solutions - PV-Cables, Inc. Discover premium PV cables and solar wire solutions at PV-Cables, Inc. for all your renewable energy needs. www.pv-cables.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-Descriptio.png Type: image/png Size: 21244 bytes Desc: Outlook-Descriptio.png URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Sep 24 16:53:37 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2025 16:53:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combining Powerwall 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is why the Wrench list is awesome. I'm making a second annual donation to the list based on this answer alone. Michael: Blake gets all the credit. Of course, my Eaton rep said it wasn't possible. That's better than SqD and ABB that told me it would work, but it didn't. We used to use those same Eaton hold down kits on Enphase IQ combiner, which used Eaton busbars, so I should have known it was possible. Thanks again. My local shop has 5 in stock. I'm good to go tomorrow! Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Sep 24, 2025, 4:39 PM Blake Gleason wrote: > Eaton has a 125A panel that can take two hold down kits. I happen to be > installing three of them today ... > > BR816L125RP > > > > Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner > Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence > O: 510-845-2997 x128 > C: 510-867-5878 > [image: sunlightandpower.com] > > > > 1035 Folger Ave. > > Berkeley, CA 94710 > > www.sunlightandpower.com > License #326203 > > [image: > https://www.amicussolar.com/] [image: > https://calssa.org/] > > On Wed, Sep 24, 2025, 1:37 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I have a situation with a utility company that requires us to have a >> single visible load break disconnect switch that isolates only the >> "renewable sources" without disconnecting the house loads. To do this, the >> only way possible seems to be combining the inverters in a load center and >> then using the main lugs in the load center to go to a fusible disconnect >> switch, and then the backup load lugs in the Gateway 3. >> >> The problem with that is I have not been able to find a 125 amp load >> center that accepts multiple backfed breaker fasteners. Square D has a 100 >> amp load center that accepts two breaker hold down kits, but for two >> Powerwalls we need 125A. >> >> Other than going to a panel board with bolt on breakers, can you think of >> any other way to comply? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> We >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 20:01:53 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2025 20:01:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combining Powerwall 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Agreed, wrenches is a life saver. I happily paid my dues as well. My mind was blown last week when I found that the GM Home Hub MID does not ship with an internal non-backed up loads terminal and an Eaton 24INT125B-1 bus is required. This part is $125 by itself but if you buy the BRL125SP subpanel (which includes this exact same busbar) the entire subpanel is only $28. On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 4:54 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > This is why the Wrench list is awesome. I'm making a second annual > donation to the list based on this answer alone. Michael: Blake gets all > the credit. > > Of course, my Eaton rep said it wasn't possible. That's better than SqD > and ABB that told me it would work, but it didn't. > > We used to use those same Eaton hold down kits on Enphase IQ combiner, > which used Eaton busbars, so I should have known it was possible. > > Thanks again. My local shop has 5 in stock. I'm good to go tomorrow! > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Wed, Sep 24, 2025, 4:39 PM Blake Gleason > wrote: > >> Eaton has a 125A panel that can take two hold down kits. I happen to be >> installing three of them today ... >> >> BR816L125RP >> >> >> >> Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner >> Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence >> O: 510-845-2997 x128 >> C: 510-867-5878 >> [image: sunlightandpower.com] >> >> >> >> 1035 Folger Ave. >> >> Berkeley, CA 94710 >> >> www.sunlightandpower.com >> License #326203 >> >> [image: >> https://www.amicussolar.com/] [image: >> https://calssa.org/] >> >> On Wed, Sep 24, 2025, 1:37 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I have a situation with a utility company that requires us to have a >>> single visible load break disconnect switch that isolates only the >>> "renewable sources" without disconnecting the house loads. To do this, the >>> only way possible seems to be combining the inverters in a load center and >>> then using the main lugs in the load center to go to a fusible disconnect >>> switch, and then the backup load lugs in the Gateway 3. >>> >>> The problem with that is I have not been able to find a 125 amp load >>> center that accepts multiple backfed breaker fasteners. Square D has a 100 >>> amp load center that accepts two breaker hold down kits, but for two >>> Powerwalls we need 125A. >>> >>> Other than going to a panel board with bolt on breakers, can you think >>> of any other way to comply? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> We >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 23:48:05 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2025 20:48:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BYD battery 12kW In-Reply-To: References: <4F167880-0C5B-43AE-97F7-80F0531AF5DB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches In a conversation with SMA some time back, they did not have an approved battery system, maybe now they do, I would reach out to SMA and go from there. Fun times to come On Wed, Sep 24, 2025, 1:44 PM Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I indirectly received a response from SMA this morning and checking with > Greentech Renewables to see if they are able to source them as they have > them listed on their website: > > > > *The SMA battery is not yet available. Previously it was going to be self > consumption only but when it does come to market it will be a whole home > battery. Hopefully that is in the first half of next year (this is to the > best of my knowledge of what I’ve heard internally). We do have the Backup > Secure and Backup Select available right now. Beyond that, you are correct, > the BYD battery is the only currently compatible battery.* > > > > > > > > > [image: Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140] > > > > > > > *Bryan > Norkunas* > > *PV-Cables Inc.* > > *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D > * > > *Ferndale CA 95536 > * > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > PV Cables and Accessories - Quality Solar Solutions - PV-Cables, Inc. > > Discover premium PV cables and solar wire solutions at PV-Cables, Inc. for > all your renewable energy needs. > www.pv-cables.com > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of jay via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 24, 2025 1:32 PM > *To:* scot.arey at solarcentex.com > *Cc:* jay ; RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] BYD battery 12kW > > Yeah I always hate when people ask about stuff thats not available. > > I’ll just tell him he’ll have to find it on his own. > > thanks > > jay > > On Sep 24, 2025, at 2:23 PM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: > > I first became aware of the BYD when I had my 'LG only kinda/sorta works' > with the SMA storage inverter debacle. > > Not many making a high voltage battery now and shockingly to me, seems > that 48V has kind of won the "beta/vhs" battle for now. Maybe the new > SolarEdge Nexis ESS and inverter tips this again, but to answer your > question, didn't find BYD from any "major" distributors during a cursory > look. > > We did just install the latest SMA inverter and we liked it...I'm a sucker > for SMA string inverters and we enjoyed using the SunSpec functionality > which provides great value. > > *Howard "Scot" Arey* > *Owner, Solar CenTex* > 254-300-1228 > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of jay via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 24, 2025 3:10 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* jay > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] BYD battery 12kW > > I had someone ask me about this battery for a new SMA smart inverter. > > I thought I’d run it by everyone. My searches came up empty so I’m > guessing it’s vapor ware? > > thanks > > jay > > > > Have you ever seen this battery and do you know anyone who sells them? > I have a customer looking for one or two and they are the approved battery > for the new SMA smart inverters ( or so my customer told me) > > > > > BYD 12.0 kWh Premium HVL Home Batteries - 3 Modules | Battery-Box HVL 12.0 > - EcoDirect > > Warranty: 10 Years Stock Status: (Out of Stock) Availability: This item > has an indefinite lead time, due to import complications. Call for > availability. Product Code: BYD-BATTERY-BOX-HVL-12.0 > www.ecodirect.com > > BYD 12.0 kWh Premium HVL Home Batteries - 3 Modules | Battery-Box HVL 12.0 > > > > > > > > *Bryan > Norkunas* > > > *PV-Cables Inc.* > *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D > * > *Ferndale CA 95536 > * > (707) 923-3000 office > www.pv-cables.com > > PV Cables and Accessories - Quality Solar Solutions - PV-Cables, Inc. > > Discover premium PV cables and solar wire solutions at PV-Cables, Inc. for > all your renewable energy needs. > www.pv-cables.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-Descriptio.png Type: image/png Size: 21244 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-Descriptio.png Type: image/png Size: 21244 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Sep 26 13:51:52 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2025 13:51:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual radian system stopping selling on sunny days Message-ID: To the Outback extraordinaires, I've got a dual radian, grid tied system that has been in service for about 9 years. Recently, it has started this behavior where it will stop selling to the grid on sunny days. Looking back at the data, this has happened intermittently and very infrequently a couple years ago. But now we are at the point where it happens every sunny day. Once the batteries get up to fully 100% charged (not 99%), the selling stops and the system only harvests enough solar to cover the backed up loads. I got a hold of the USB card data. It appears that the inverter goes from "Sell Enabled" to "Offset" when this happens. I cannot tell whether the inverter randomly decides to switch mode and then stop selling, or whether it is the stopping selling that puts it in "Offset" mode. The sell voltage is set at 52V, and float is set to 54.4V. It looks like the batteries are generally sitting around 54V when this happens. Once the inverter enters "offset" mode, then the battery voltage stays steady at 54.0V Does anyone have any idea what can be causing this to happen? Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Sep 26 17:01:30 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2025 14:01:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual radian system stopping selling on sunny days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, I've had the same thing happen with a couple of systems... Do you have the FNDC installed? Outback wont admit it but I think that there is a software conflict between the FNDC and the radian firmware. The only way I could get it to stay in sell mode was to remove the FNDC. *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 10:53 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > To the Outback extraordinaires, > > I've got a dual radian, grid tied system that has been in service for > about 9 years. Recently, it has started this behavior where it will stop > selling to the grid on sunny days. Looking back at the data, this has > happened intermittently and very infrequently a couple years ago. But now > we are at the point where it happens every sunny day. Once the batteries > get up to fully 100% charged (not 99%), the selling stops and the system > only harvests enough solar to cover the backed up loads. > > I got a hold of the USB card data. It appears that the inverter goes from > "Sell Enabled" to "Offset" when this happens. I cannot tell whether the > inverter randomly decides to switch mode and then stop selling, or whether > it is the stopping selling that puts it in "Offset" mode. The sell voltage > is set at 52V, and float is set to 54.4V. It looks like the batteries are > generally sitting around 54V when this happens. Once the inverter enters > "offset" mode, then the battery voltage stays steady at 54.0V > > Does anyone have any idea what can be causing this to happen? > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. > > > | Ithaca, > NY 14850 > > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri Sep 26 17:25:12 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2025 21:25:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual radian system stopping selling on sunny days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't have but two paralleled Radian systems but I removed the FNDC in those. While I REALLY want to love and use the FNDC, I feel like that gives unintended issues in more complex systems. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, September 26, 2025 4:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Steve Higgins Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dual radian system stopping selling on sunny days Dave, I've had the same thing happen with a couple of systems... Do you have the FNDC installed? Outback wont admit it but I think that there is a software conflict between the FNDC and the radian firmware. The only way I could get it to stay in sell mode was to remove the FNDC. [https://storage.googleapis.com/bucket-images-sig/RollsbySurrette.jpg] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/facebook_square_gray-24.png][https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/instagram_square-24.png][http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/youtube_square_gray-24.png][http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/linkedin_square_gray-24.png] ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ________________________________ On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 10:53 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: To the Outback extraordinaires, I've got a dual radian, grid tied system that has been in service for about 9 years. Recently, it has started this behavior where it will stop selling to the grid on sunny days. Looking back at the data, this has happened intermittently and very infrequently a couple years ago. But now we are at the point where it happens every sunny day. Once the batteries get up to fully 100% charged (not 99%), the selling stops and the system only harvests enough solar to cover the backed up loads. I got a hold of the USB card data. It appears that the inverter goes from "Sell Enabled" to "Offset" when this happens. I cannot tell whether the inverter randomly decides to switch mode and then stop selling, or whether it is the stopping selling that puts it in "Offset" mode. The sell voltage is set at 52V, and float is set to 54.4V. It looks like the batteries are generally sitting around 54V when this happens. Once the inverter enters "offset" mode, then the battery voltage stays steady at 54.0V Does anyone have any idea what can be causing this to happen? Cheers, Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Sep 26 17:37:15 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2025 15:37:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual radian system stopping selling on sunny days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Sep 26 18:19:52 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2025 18:19:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual radian system stopping selling on sunny days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is interesting that a couple people mention the FNDC. It seems that completing the charge parameters sets off the issue. I am also toying with lowering the end amps or something like that so that it is less likely that the system would ever get to a full charge. Although, I realize that may end up overcharging the batteries when the grid is down... I did finally get a hold of someone from Outback who suggested updating the firmware on the Mate3. If that does not work then I'll have to somehow coordinate to be there at a time that the problem is occuring and also schedule a call from Outback at the same time. Disconnecting the FNDC or a factory reset are also good ideas. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 5:38 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have a few out there all offgrid, so this particular issue I e not seen > > But I have had all sorts of weird issues that occurred long after any > changes to the system. AGS was a big one. > After I double checked all the settings I usually resorted to a full > factory reboot of everything. > > And that usually fixed it. > > Good luck > > Jay > > > > On Sep 26, 2025, at 3:26 PM, scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I don't have but two paralleled Radian systems but I removed the FNDC in > those. While I REALLY want to love and use the FNDC, I feel like that gives > unintended issues in more complex systems. > > *Howard "Scot" Arey* > *Owner, Solar CenTex* > 254-300-1228 > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, September 26, 2025 4:01 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Steve Higgins > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Dual radian system stopping selling on sunny > days > > Dave, I've had the same thing happen with a couple of systems... > > Do you have the FNDC installed? > > Outback wont admit it but I think that there is a software conflict > between the FNDC and the radian firmware. > > The only way I could get it to stay in sell mode was to remove the FNDC. > > *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* > *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 > *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > > On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 10:53 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > To the Outback extraordinaires, > > I've got a dual radian, grid tied system that has been in service for > about 9 years. Recently, it has started this behavior where it will stop > selling to the grid on sunny days. Looking back at the data, this has > happened intermittently and very infrequently a couple years ago. But now > we are at the point where it happens every sunny day. Once the batteries > get up to fully 100% charged (not 99%), the selling stops and the system > only harvests enough solar to cover the backed up loads. > > I got a hold of the USB card data. It appears that the inverter goes from > "Sell Enabled" to "Offset" when this happens. I cannot tell whether the > inverter randomly decides to switch mode and then stop selling, or whether > it is the stopping selling that puts it in "Offset" mode. The sell voltage > is set at 52V, and float is set to 54.4V. It looks like the batteries are > generally sitting around 54V when this happens. Once the inverter enters > "offset" mode, then the battery voltage stays steady at 54.0V > > Does anyone have any idea what can be causing this to happen? > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. > > > | Ithaca, > NY 14850 > > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Fri Sep 26 23:23:39 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2025 20:23:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual radian system stopping selling on sunny days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Forgive me if I'm missing something but typically I would have sell voltage slightly higher than float and lower than absorb.. I also never use the FNDC for charge termination and instead let the charge controller do everything by voltage... this may be a slightly different logic for lifepo4 but has always worked great for me for lead acid and agms. Best of luck! On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 10:52 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > To the Outback extraordinaires, > > I've got a dual radian, grid tied system that has been in service for > about 9 years. Recently, it has started this behavior where it will stop > selling to the grid on sunny days. Looking back at the data, this has > happened intermittently and very infrequently a couple years ago. But now > we are at the point where it happens every sunny day. Once the batteries > get up to fully 100% charged (not 99%), the selling stops and the system > only harvests enough solar to cover the backed up loads. > > I got a hold of the USB card data. It appears that the inverter goes from > "Sell Enabled" to "Offset" when this happens. I cannot tell whether the > inverter randomly decides to switch mode and then stop selling, or whether > it is the stopping selling that puts it in "Offset" mode. The sell voltage > is set at 52V, and float is set to 54.4V. It looks like the batteries are > generally sitting around 54V when this happens. Once the inverter enters > "offset" mode, then the battery voltage stays steady at 54.0V > > Does anyone have any idea what can be causing this to happen? > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. > > > | Ithaca, > NY 14850 > > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Fri Sep 26 23:39:26 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2025 20:39:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual radian system stopping selling on sunny days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's also worth considering temperature compensation and how that may affect the dynamic...also the CCs float and absorb should be set slightly higher than the inverters. Regarding offset behavior, here is an application note that may help.. https://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/offset_tech_note_correc.pdf On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 8:23 PM Tyrone Houck wrote: > Forgive me if I'm missing something but typically I would have sell > voltage slightly higher than float and lower than absorb.. I also never use > the FNDC for charge termination and instead let the charge controller do > everything by voltage... this may be a slightly different logic for lifepo4 > but has always worked great for me for lead acid and agms. > Best of luck! > > > On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 10:52 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> To the Outback extraordinaires, >> >> I've got a dual radian, grid tied system that has been in service for >> about 9 years. Recently, it has started this behavior where it will stop >> selling to the grid on sunny days. Looking back at the data, this has >> happened intermittently and very infrequently a couple years ago. But now >> we are at the point where it happens every sunny day. Once the batteries >> get up to fully 100% charged (not 99%), the selling stops and the system >> only harvests enough solar to cover the backed up loads. >> >> I got a hold of the USB card data. It appears that the inverter goes from >> "Sell Enabled" to "Offset" when this happens. I cannot tell whether the >> inverter randomly decides to switch mode and then stop selling, or whether >> it is the stopping selling that puts it in "Offset" mode. The sell voltage >> is set at 52V, and float is set to 54.4V. It looks like the batteries are >> generally sitting around 54V when this happens. Once the inverter enters >> "offset" mode, then the battery voltage stays steady at 54.0V >> >> Does anyone have any idea what can be causing this to happen? >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >> >> >> | Ithaca, >> NY 14850 >> >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat Sep 27 09:15:26 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2025 08:15:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual radian system stopping selling on sunny days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5C9DF36E-E46D-4E94-962F-988888016B59@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Mon Sep 29 11:36:13 2025 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2025 15:36:13 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] BYD battery 12kW In-Reply-To: References: <4F167880-0C5B-43AE-97F7-80F0531AF5DB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Bryan - The information you provided is correct. The BYD HVL (all sizes) is the approved battery for the Sunny Boy Smart Energy 3.8-7.7 power classes (SMA did not have the 9.6/11.5 power classes when UL 9540 testing was done with the HVL line) SMA Backup Home (external accessory like the Automatic Backup Unit with Sunny Boy Storage) will launch along with the new SMA Home Storage battery (this was the unit on display at RE+). The Home Storage battery will be a monolithic unit with 19.4 kWh usable capacity. Backup Home will allow the full power of the inverter to be accessible in backup mode (unlike Backup Secure and Backup Select). Best regards – Mike Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America +1 916 918 9412 SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings [X] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2025 2:43 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Bryan Norkunas Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] BYD battery 12kW I indirectly received a response from SMA this morning and checking with Greentech Renewables to see if they are able to source them as they have them listed on their website: The SMA battery is not yet available. Previously it was going to be self consumption only but when it does come to market it will be a whole home battery. Hopefully that is in the first half of next year (this is to the best of my knowledge of what I’ve heard internally). We do have the Backup Secure and Backup Select available right now. Beyond that, you are correct, the BYD battery is the only currently compatible battery. [Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140] Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com [https://pv-cables.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/qtq80-ceZI2E-scaled.jpeg] PV Cables and Accessories - Quality Solar Solutions - PV-Cables, Inc. Discover premium PV cables and solar wire solutions at PV-Cables, Inc. for all your renewable energy needs. www.pv-cables.com ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of jay via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2025 1:32 PM To: scot.arey at solarcentex.com > Cc: jay >; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] BYD battery 12kW Yeah I always hate when people ask about stuff thats not available. I’ll just tell him he’ll have to find it on his own. thanks jay On Sep 24, 2025, at 2:23 PM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: I first became aware of the BYD when I had my 'LG only kinda/sorta works' with the SMA storage inverter debacle. Not many making a high voltage battery now and shockingly to me, seems that 48V has kind of won the "beta/vhs" battle for now. Maybe the new SolarEdge Nexis ESS and inverter tips this again, but to answer your question, didn't find BYD from any "major" distributors during a cursory look. We did just install the latest SMA inverter and we liked it...I'm a sucker for SMA string inverters and we enjoyed using the SunSpec functionality which provides great value. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of jay via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2025 3:10 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: jay > Subject: [RE-wrenches] BYD battery 12kW I had someone ask me about this battery for a new SMA smart inverter. I thought I’d run it by everyone. My searches came up empty so I’m guessing it’s vapor ware? thanks jay Have you ever seen this battery and do you know anyone who sells them? I have a customer looking for one or two and they are the approved battery for the new SMA smart inverters ( or so my customer told me) [https://www.ecodirect.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BYD-BATTERY-BOX-HVL-12.0-2T.jpg] BYD 12.0 kWh Premium HVL Home Batteries - 3 Modules | Battery-Box HVL 12.0 - EcoDirect Warranty: 10 Years Stock Status: (Out of Stock) Availability: This item has an indefinite lead time, due to import complications. Call for availability. Product Code: BYD-BATTERY-BOX-HVL-12.0 www.ecodirect.com BYD 12.0 kWh Premium HVL Home Batteries - 3 Modules | Battery-Box HVL 12.0 Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com [https://pv-cables.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/qtq80-ceZI2E-scaled.jpeg] PV Cables and Accessories - Quality Solar Solutions - PV-Cables, Inc. Discover premium PV cables and solar wire solutions at PV-Cables, Inc. for all your renewable energy needs. www.pv-cables.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 21244 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Mon Sep 29 22:06:54 2025 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2025 20:06:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking a vendor for RJ45 patch cable (Sunny TriPower) Message-ID: Hi, Mechanix~ Can someone suggest a shop to provide a "solar" ethernet cable? I'd like to get this with the RJ45 plugs professionally installed so I don't have to learn new tricks. I need quantity one for an SMA Sunny Tripower 50kW PV inverter. * Length is TBD but prolly ~ 30 feet * Sunlight resistant * Cat 5e or higher * Cable bandwidth: 100 Mbps (100Base Tx copper wire, 24AWG same as 0.22 mm²) * Shielding: SF/UTP, S/UTP, SF/FTP or S/FTP * Voltage rating 250-ish or higher: I plan to put the power wires in an EMT conduit and to keep the data wire outside the conduit. * If I've understood the SMA instructions correctly, I only need two wire pairs but more would of course be OK. * Standard patch cable wiring (not crossover) Shipment would be to a biz address in 81147 CO. Suggestions "on the List" or "off the List" would be welcomed. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 30 08:02:57 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2025 08:02:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking a vendor for RJ45 patch cable (Sunny TriPower) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not to hijack the thread, but this question is related. I'm looking for a source for 600V Ethernet cable that won't break the bank. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Sep 29, 2025 at 10:08 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi, Mechanix~ > > Can someone suggest a shop to provide a "solar" ethernet cable? I'd like > to get this with the RJ45 plugs professionally installed so I don't have to > learn new tricks. I need quantity one for an SMA Sunny Tripower 50kW PV > inverter. > > * Length is TBD but prolly ~ 30 feet > > * Sunlight resistant > > * Cat 5e or higher > > * Cable bandwidth: 100 Mbps (100Base Tx copper wire, 24AWG same as 0.22 > mm²) > > * Shielding: SF/UTP, S/UTP, SF/FTP or S/FTP > > * Voltage rating 250-ish or higher: I plan to put the power wires in an > EMT conduit and to keep the data wire outside the conduit. > > * If I've understood the SMA instructions correctly, I only need two wire > pairs but more would of course be OK. > > * Standard patch cable wiring (not crossover) > > Shipment would be to a biz address in 81147 CO. Suggestions "on the List" > or "off the List" would be welcomed. The Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Sep 30 08:08:30 2025 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2025 07:08:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking a vendor for RJ45 patch cable (Sunny TriPower) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is 600V stranded CAT5e cable that is fairly inexpensive, readily available, and nice and flexible. https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/bulk_wire_-a-_cable/data_-a-_communication_cable/q5752-1 I make equipment that goes in the Arctic and Antarctic and the flexibility is important to me. This stuff is good. We terminate it with Platinum EZ-RJ-45 CAT5e *shielded* connectors. The shield isn't used, but the connector accommodates the relatively large jacket on 600V cable. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Tue, Sep 30, 2025 at 7:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Not to hijack the thread, but this question is related. I'm looking for a > source for 600V Ethernet cable that won't break the bank. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2025 at 10:08 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi, Mechanix~ >> >> Can someone suggest a shop to provide a "solar" ethernet cable? I'd like >> to get this with the RJ45 plugs professionally installed so I don't have to >> learn new tricks. I need quantity one for an SMA Sunny Tripower 50kW PV >> inverter. >> >> * Length is TBD but prolly ~ 30 feet >> >> * Sunlight resistant >> >> * Cat 5e or higher >> >> * Cable bandwidth: 100 Mbps (100Base Tx copper wire, 24AWG same as 0.22 >> mm²) >> >> * Shielding: SF/UTP, S/UTP, SF/FTP or S/FTP >> >> * Voltage rating 250-ish or higher: I plan to put the power wires in an >> EMT conduit and to keep the data wire outside the conduit. >> >> * If I've understood the SMA instructions correctly, I only need two wire >> pairs but more would of course be OK. >> >> * Standard patch cable wiring (not crossover) >> >> Shipment would be to a biz address in 81147 CO. Suggestions "on the List" >> or "off the List" would be welcomed. The Wrench List is the Bomb! >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com >> >> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Sep 30 08:10:38 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2025 08:10:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking a vendor for RJ45 patch cable (Sunny TriPower) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mick, I know that you started off saying that you would prefer to not have to learn a new skill. However, I find it very useful to be able to make cables of custom length, and also to be able to crimp ends on after the cable is run into a box. This way it can go in conduit or through standard wire glands without having to worry about the bulky end. There are plenty of videos on you tube that can teach you to make the end, and simple crimpers and ends are not very expensive. Unfortunately, I do not have a good source of custom pre-fabricated ethernet cables. Cheers, Dave On Mon, Sep 29, 2025 at 10:08 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi, Mechanix~ > > Can someone suggest a shop to provide a "solar" ethernet cable? I'd like > to get this with the RJ45 plugs professionally installed so I don't have to > learn new tricks. I need quantity one for an SMA Sunny Tripower 50kW PV > inverter. > > * Length is TBD but prolly ~ 30 feet > > * Sunlight resistant > > * Cat 5e or higher > > * Cable bandwidth: 100 Mbps (100Base Tx copper wire, 24AWG same as 0.22 > mm²) > > * Shielding: SF/UTP, S/UTP, SF/FTP or S/FTP > > * Voltage rating 250-ish or higher: I plan to put the power wires in an > EMT conduit and to keep the data wire outside the conduit. > > * If I've understood the SMA instructions correctly, I only need two wire > pairs but more would of course be OK. > > * Standard patch cable wiring (not crossover) > > Shipment would be to a biz address in 81147 CO. Suggestions "on the List" > or "off the List" would be welcomed. The Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 08:47:28 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2025 06:47:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking a vendor for RJ45 patch cable (Sunny TriPower) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mick, I also think it's a great skill to put in your toolkit but it does depend on your eye sight. If you do decide to fabricate your own, I recommend pass-through ethernet connectors. This really helps to verify color codes, and makes it much, much easier. On Tue, Sep 30, 2025 at 6:11 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Mick, > > I know that you started off saying that you would prefer to not have to > learn a new skill. However, I find it very useful to be able to make cables > of custom length, and also to be able to crimp ends on after the cable is > run into a box. This way it can go in conduit or through standard wire > glands without having to worry about the bulky end. There are plenty of > videos on you tube that can teach you to make the end, and simple crimpers > and ends are not very expensive. > > Unfortunately, I do not have a good source of custom pre-fabricated > ethernet cables. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2025 at 10:08 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi, Mechanix~ >> >> Can someone suggest a shop to provide a "solar" ethernet cable? I'd like >> to get this with the RJ45 plugs professionally installed so I don't have to >> learn new tricks. I need quantity one for an SMA Sunny Tripower 50kW PV >> inverter. >> >> * Length is TBD but prolly ~ 30 feet >> >> * Sunlight resistant >> >> * Cat 5e or higher >> >> * Cable bandwidth: 100 Mbps (100Base Tx copper wire, 24AWG same as 0.22 >> mm²) >> >> * Shielding: SF/UTP, S/UTP, SF/FTP or S/FTP >> >> * Voltage rating 250-ish or higher: I plan to put the power wires in an >> EMT conduit and to keep the data wire outside the conduit. >> >> * If I've understood the SMA instructions correctly, I only need two wire >> pairs but more would of course be OK. >> >> * Standard patch cable wiring (not crossover) >> >> Shipment would be to a biz address in 81147 CO. Suggestions "on the List" >> or "off the List" would be welcomed. The Wrench List is the Bomb! >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com >> >> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cheezemanrich at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 12:07:20 2025 From: cheezemanrich at gmail.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2025 16:07:20 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Seeking a vendor for RJ45 patch cable (Sunny TriPower) References: Message-ID: Also, beware that the RJ45 connectors have two types depending on the wire. One of for stranded with a single pierce and the other is for solid with a fork type. If you use a single pierce on a solid wire it usually breaks the wire and it will likely be intermittent. This also applies to RJ11 (4 pin) and RJ12 (6 pin). I know this from experience with lots of intermittent network and RS485 connection troubleshooting. Rich Hi Mick, I also think it's a great skill to put in your toolkit but it does depend on your eye sight. If you do decide to fabricate your own, I recommend pass-through ethernet connectors. This really helps to verify color codes, and makes it much, much easier. -- Hi Mick, I also think it's a great skill to put in your toolkit but it does depend on your eye sight. If you do decide to fabricate your own, I recommend pass-through ethernet connectors. This really helps to verify color codes, and makes it much, much easier. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 30 17:26:07 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2025 17:26:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Smart Load Owner Access Message-ID: Is it possible to grant homeowner access to Smart Load configuration? From what I can tell, it appears to be installer-only access. That's not very "smart." An owner can't override or adjust the percentages during an off-grid event?! Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 18:05:51 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2025 15:05:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Smart Load Owner Access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Im not in front of one at the moment but I'm pretty sure they can through Bluetooth. On Tue, Sep 30, 2025, 2:26 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Is it possible to grant homeowner access to Smart Load configuration? From > what I can tell, it appears to be installer-only access. That's not very > "smart." An owner can't override or adjust the percentages during an > off-grid event?! > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 07:11:12 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 07:11:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guard Options Message-ID: Hi all, I’m wondering what people in snow prone areas are using for module mounted snow retention. I have used the Alpine SnowGuard in the past, but it’s not the easiest to install, especially when the leading edge of the module is close to the drip edge on a multi-story building. There don’t seem to be many other options on the market, so curious if there are other offerings or methods that people have found helpful. Thanks in advance! Chris Sparadeo VT Master Electrician # EM 08220 C_802-369-4458 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Oct 1 11:09:04 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 15:09:04 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guard Options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35873CD3-9498-4355-B886-A05E0EC526B4@solarwork.com> Hey there, Chris I’ve never used Sno retention on the bottom of an array. I’ve always thought that clearing the array was the basic idea. I understand if there’s a doorway underneath it a raise that hold snow for long periods of time as in most of the winter tend to get iced up and I have multiple photos of array is coming off of roofs due to snow not sliding off mostly due to either being east or west facing. I suppose if I had a large area of roof above the array, I might do Sno offenses above the array, but not below the array Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > On Oct 1, 2025, at 5:12 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hi all, > > I’m wondering what people in snow prone areas are using for module mounted snow retention. I have used the Alpine SnowGuard in the past, but it’s not the easiest to install, especially when the leading edge of the module is close to the drip edge on a multi-story building. There don’t seem to be many other options on the market, so curious if there are other offerings or methods that people have found helpful. > > Thanks in advance! > > Chris Sparadeo > > VT Master Electrician # EM 08220 > C_802-369-4458 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From iesbatteries at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 11:17:22 2025 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 11:17:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guard Options In-Reply-To: <35873CD3-9498-4355-B886-A05E0EC526B4@solarwork.com> References: <35873CD3-9498-4355-B886-A05E0EC526B4@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I second Dana's assessment. The idea is to allow the snow to remove itself if possible. We always mount the top row as close to the peak as possible to prevent snow build up above. In the old days, when arrays were smaller, I'd recommend a good coat of RainX every year as it does help snow slide easier, but roof mounted large arrays can be difficult, at least. I've found that snow held beneath the bottom row of modules can build up and prevent module snow from sliding off, often refreezing as even harder to remove ice. The long and short, to me, is that snow removal is a real pita and why we've got so many ground mounted arrays in Maine.... Daryl On Wed, Oct 1, 2025, 11:09 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey there, Chris I’ve never used Sno retention on the bottom of an array. > I’ve always thought that clearing the array was the basic idea. I > understand if there’s a doorway underneath it a raise that hold snow for > long periods of time as in most of the winter tend to get iced up and I > have multiple photos of array is coming off of roofs due to snow not > sliding off mostly due to either being east or west facing. > I suppose if I had a large area of roof above the array, I might do Sno > offenses above the array, but not below the array > Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > > > On Oct 1, 2025, at 5:12 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > >  > > Hi all, > > > > I’m wondering what people in snow prone areas are using for module > mounted snow retention. I have used the Alpine SnowGuard in the past, but > it’s not the easiest to install, especially when the leading edge of the > module is close to the drip edge on a multi-story building. There don’t > seem to be many other options on the market, so curious if there are other > offerings or methods that people have found helpful. > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > Chris Sparadeo > > > > VT Master Electrician # EM 08220 > > C_802-369-4458 > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Wed Oct 1 12:46:27 2025 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 10:46:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guard Options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, Where we install in our valley the average yearly snowfall is around 80 inches and buildings are rated to assume a 50 lb per sq. ft. snow load. As the elevation climbs out of the valley and into the mountains we're looking at 400 inches of annual snowfall and load ratings increase to around 200 lb. per sq. ft. We have installed hundreds of systems with Alpine Snowguards and earlier on we installed a few dozen Snake Tray guards. The Alpine snowguard product works well for our installs at lower elevations as it is limited in how much weight it can handle. When you read their spec sheets closely they indicate that no more than 6" of snow should be allowed to accumulate on the array. We had a banner snow year last winter and quite a bit of snow guard came out broken in the Springtime which has given us pause as to whether we should be installing it at all. Your question was whether there are better options and we have not found anything better than Alpine. It is also honestly inadequate for where we live and have not been able to come up with an alternate solution. When my home array avalanches it is an impressive event and if there was a walkway or doorway underneath it I would absolutely want something mitigating that which is the case for many of our clients so it's certainly a conundrum. Cheers, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] Sam Haraldson Operations Specialist 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garrison.rie at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 18:01:13 2025 From: garrison.rie at gmail.com (Garrison) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 17:01:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guard Options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 19:19:39 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 19:19:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow Guard Options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the advice, all. Obviously, no snow on an array is the best case scenario from a production standpoint. Just for context, most jurisdictions in my state of Vermont require snow guards on commercial sloped roofs above pedestrian traffic. However, the situation I am working with is a residential dwelling with an array three stories above a large back porch and I would like to be methodical about not inadvertently killing someone via avalanche. Typical VT snow loads vary from 20-80 psf. It sounds like there might be room for innovative competition in this small market dominated by Alpine. Kindly, Chris On Wed, Oct 1, 2025 at 6:02 PM Garrison via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Here in the Midwest I’ve had good luck with both Alpine and Snaketray, but > our design snow loads are only 25-30 psf. We generally only use small > sections of it over doors and to prevent damage to things like heat pumps > below a large array that is close to the roof edge. I prefer Alpine, but if > you have a small gap between panels the clamps shade the lower cells a bit > on some panels. I have not seen a better option out there. > > Just an anecdote, but a customer who I helped (I didn’t do the original > install) had his car in the driveway and shedding snow from his array > totaled it. Luckily it was fully insured. Made me think more seriously > about recommending snow guard even if it’s not perfect. Oh and maybe adding > a disclaimer to the contract. > > Best, > Garrison Riegel > Celestar Solar > > > > On Oct 1, 2025, at 11:47 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Chris, > > Where we install in our valley the average yearly snowfall is around 80 > inches and buildings are rated to assume a 50 lb per sq. ft. snow load. As > the elevation climbs out of the valley and into the mountains we're looking > at 400 inches of annual snowfall and load ratings increase to around 200 > lb. per sq. ft. We have installed hundreds of systems with Alpine > Snowguards and earlier on we installed a few dozen Snake Tray guards. > > The Alpine snowguard product works well for our installs at lower > elevations as it is limited in how much weight it can handle. When you > read their spec sheets closely they indicate that no more than 6" of snow > should be allowed to accumulate on the array. We had a banner snow year > last winter and quite a bit of snow guard came out broken in the Springtime > which has given us pause as to whether we should be installing it at all. > > Your question was whether there are better options and we have not found > anything better than Alpine. It is also honestly inadequate for where we > live and have not been able to come up with an alternate solution. When my > home array avalanches it is an impressive event and if there was a walkway > or doorway underneath it I would absolutely want something mitigating that > which is the case for many of our clients so it's certainly a conundrum. > > Cheers, > Sam > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > Sam Haraldson > Operations Specialist > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Oct 2 12:22:51 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 12:22:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] need to set up an older generac remote start circuit Message-ID: Hello folks, This Generac belongs to an old customer. He picked it up used. Runs good, but apparently was used w/ an ATS, which is no longer present. No doc's, no labels to identify model. But I have set up a remote start in a similar model 20+ years ago.w/o the ATS, just can't remember how. Terminals 23 & 194 connect to the ATS contactor coil to change state when it starts, I just can't remember the *easy* way to initiate the start command itself. There don't appear to be additional terminals for a dedicated start signal. The red and black wires come from inverter AC to keep battery trickle charger energized, etc. I wonder if simulating loss of this AC, with genny control switch in auto mode, would initiate the run cycle. In the meantime, any insights from my fellow old-timers (new ones welcome, too)? Thanks. [image: image.png] I've worked on this mo -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 505047 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Thu Oct 2 12:28:36 2025 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 16:28:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] need to set up an older generac remote start circuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not sure if I might be talking apples and pickles here, but I seem to recall faking out early Generacs to two wire start by setting up a DPDT relay in parallel with the onboard rocker switch. db ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, October 2, 2025 12:22 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Kirk Herander Subject: [RE-wrenches] need to set up an older generac remote start circuit Hello folks, This Generac belongs to an old customer. He picked it up used. Runs good, but apparently was used w/ an ATS, which is no longer present. No doc's, no labels to identify model. But I have set up a remote start in a similar model 20+ years ago.w/o the ATS, just can't remember how. Terminals 23 & 194 connect to the ATS contactor coil to change state when it starts, I just can't remember the easy way to initiate the start command itself. There don't appear to be additional terminals for a dedicated start signal. The red and black wires come from inverter AC to keep battery trickle charger energized, etc. I wonder if simulating loss of this AC, with genny control switch in auto mode, would initiate the run cycle. In the meantime, any insights from my fellow old-timers (new ones welcome, too)? Thanks. [image.png] I've worked on this mo -- [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4zIGox3hmaGW8StlnANQvRdXBrTEgpee6ZmV_8h-pfWcEl7lwlqfhSqd2PgPh89cgzwpzfUzuuIGxKE] Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 505047 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Oct 2 12:31:43 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 12:31:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] need to set up an older generac remote start circuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought of that, but vaguely remember something easier. On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 12:28 PM Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Not sure if I might be talking apples and pickles here, but I seem to > recall faking out early Generacs to two wire start by setting up a DPDT > relay in parallel with the onboard rocker switch. > db > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, October 2, 2025 12:22 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Cc:* Kirk Herander > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] need to set up an older generac remote start > circuit > > Hello folks, > > This Generac belongs to an old customer. He picked it up used. Runs good, > but apparently was used w/ an ATS, which is no longer present. > No doc's, no labels to identify model. > > But I have set up a remote start in a similar model 20+ years ago.w/o the > ATS, just can't remember how. Terminals 23 & 194 connect to the ATS > contactor coil to change state when it starts, I just can't remember the > *easy* way to initiate the start command itself. There don't appear to be > additional terminals for a dedicated start signal. > > The red and black wires come from inverter AC to keep battery trickle > charger energized, etc. I wonder if simulating loss of this AC, with genny > control switch in auto mode, would initiate the run cycle. > > In the meantime, any insights from my fellow old-timers (new ones welcome, > too)? Thanks. > > [image: image.png] > > I've worked on this mo > > -- > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 505047 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Oct 2 12:33:51 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 09:33:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] need to set up an older generac remote start circuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One Generac I worked on needed a module to convert to two wire start. Plus there was some programming. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 9:23 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello folks, > > This Generac belongs to an old customer. He picked it up used. Runs good, > but apparently was used w/ an ATS, which is no longer present. > No doc's, no labels to identify model. > > But I have set up a remote start in a similar model 20+ years ago.w/o the > ATS, just can't remember how. Terminals 23 & 194 connect to the ATS > contactor coil to change state when it starts, I just can't remember the > *easy* way to initiate the start command itself. There don't appear to be > additional terminals for a dedicated start signal. > > The red and black wires come from inverter AC to keep battery trickle > charger energized, etc. I wonder if simulating loss of this AC, with genny > control switch in auto mode, would initiate the run cycle. > > In the meantime, any insights from my fellow old-timers (new ones welcome, > too)? Thanks. > > [image: image.png] > > I've worked on this mo > > -- > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 505047 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Oct 2 12:39:01 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 12:39:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] need to set up an older generac remote start circuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Generac makes a 2-wire conversion kit, but it's for newer models than the one I'm stuck with unfortunately. On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 12:35 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > One Generac I worked on needed a module to convert to two wire start. Plus > there was some programming. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 9:23 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello folks, >> >> This Generac belongs to an old customer. He picked it up used. Runs good, >> but apparently was used w/ an ATS, which is no longer present. >> No doc's, no labels to identify model. >> >> But I have set up a remote start in a similar model 20+ years ago.w/o the >> ATS, just can't remember how. Terminals 23 & 194 connect to the ATS >> contactor coil to change state when it starts, I just can't remember the >> *easy* way to initiate the start command itself. There don't appear to >> be additional terminals for a dedicated start signal. >> >> The red and black wires come from inverter AC to keep battery trickle >> charger energized, etc. I wonder if simulating loss of this AC, with genny >> control switch in auto mode, would initiate the run cycle. >> >> In the meantime, any insights from my fellow old-timers (new ones >> welcome, too)? Thanks. >> >> [image: image.png] >> >> I've worked on this mo >> >> -- >> >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 505047 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Oct 2 09:21:31 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2025 09:21:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wrench List Dues Message-ID: Hello All, I know this is off-topic under list guidelines, but Michael said it was OK to post. Michael deserves our support for keeping The RE-Wrench List going for all these decades. The discussions on the list have been important to the evolution of solar energy in the areas of technological innovation, dealer support, and code development. Many industry leaders have taken part in these discussions. The information on the list is invaluable for putting the word out on products that are useful and ones to be avoided. Help is often provided in getting through to manufacturers that are sometimes elusive. There are a lot of smart, experienced installers and designers on the Wrench List. Technical advice provided in various posts often exceeds that provided by product manufacturers. Getting the information needed can easily save us hours of work or research, which can far exceed the cost of the dues. The Wrench List is one of the most important tools in my toolbox. Hopefully other members of this list will understand its value and also send in their dues. I know Michael says the dues are optional, but come on… The Wrench List rocks. It is an incredibly valuable business investment. Let's keep it going. The minimum suggested dues are only $50 per year. I have sent significantly more. Go to http://re-wrenches.org/ to pay dues online or to find the mailing address for sending a check. Thanks, Wrenches, let's all pony up! Best, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 13:16:41 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 11:16:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] need to set up an older generac remote start circuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5C22BBEB-C7B9-4A9E-BC1A-8855E98A0F8A@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 14:55:07 2025 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 14:55:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kilovault HAB BMS Message-ID: Anybody have experience changing out the BMS on one of these? I think this is a V3 that I’m working on… The problem is the Green LEDs on the front were flashing(should be solid), and no values were being shown on the screen(but the screen does light up). Solampio sent me a new BMS but it looks like a bear to swap it out. Any feedback much appreciated. Amos -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 244238 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 181913 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Sent from my iPhone From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 2 14:58:39 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 14:58:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] need to set up an older generac remote start circuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm pretty sure this is just a utility sense generator based on the picture. If you interrupt 240V power to N1 and N2, the generator should start if it is in auto mode. You could install a relay in that N1/N2 circuit that opens when the AGS start logic is met. I'm not sure how the battery charger works on that unit, so you might need to investigate that. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 12:23 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello folks, > > This Generac belongs to an old customer. He picked it up used. Runs good, > but apparently was used w/ an ATS, which is no longer present. > No doc's, no labels to identify model. > > But I have set up a remote start in a similar model 20+ years ago.w/o the > ATS, just can't remember how. Terminals 23 & 194 connect to the ATS > contactor coil to change state when it starts, I just can't remember the > *easy* way to initiate the start command itself. There don't appear to be > additional terminals for a dedicated start signal. > > The red and black wires come from inverter AC to keep battery trickle > charger energized, etc. I wonder if simulating loss of this AC, with genny > control switch in auto mode, would initiate the run cycle. > > In the meantime, any insights from my fellow old-timers (new ones welcome, > too)? Thanks. > > [image: image.png] > > I've worked on this mo > > -- > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 505047 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 2 16:56:46 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 16:56:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EGC for LFP Battery Circuits Message-ID: For batteries like the Midnite PowerFlo16 or EG4 Wallmount using a NEC Chapter 3 wiring method, what do you do in regards to running an EGC with the DC circuit conductors in a raceway? Midnite, for example, supplies a #10 EGC to bond the case of the battery, but this is not suitable for a circuit with an ampacity of 210A per NEC Table 250.122. It's not addressed in manuals from these manufacturers. It would be easy enough to run a #4 copper EGC with the 2/0 battery cables, but where would you terminate it at the battery end? The case ground screws are far too small. I suppose you could use a grounding bushing if the raceway is not itself qualified as the EGC. In cases where you have a conduit box like EG4 or if you set a Midnite AIO on a wiring trough, they supply plastic bushings to use, so there is no solid electrical continuity between the inverter and wiring trough, yet you seemingly need to run up to a #4 EGC through the opening with the battery cables. Where would that terminate in the trough or on the battery? I haven't had any issues with AHJs by just running a #10 with the circuit conductors and making sure all metallic parts are bonded, but something doesn't seem right about all of this, and I want to be prepared if called out by an inspector. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Oct 2 17:30:41 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 14:30:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EGC (and raceway) for LFP Battery Circuits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If there is some kind of case flange in a convenient spot one might use one of these: On a related note: I installed 3 Deka Duration batteries wall-mounted in my shop. The manufacturer provided no means to enclose conductors in a raceway. I cobbled together some sections of 6x6 gutter with an opening cut into each to enclose conductors. It worked out ok but was time consuming. I like the Duration but I don’t like the lack of raceway options. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 1:58 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > For batteries like the Midnite PowerFlo16 or EG4 Wallmount using a NEC > Chapter 3 wiring method, what do you do in regards to running an EGC with > the DC circuit conductors in a raceway? Midnite, for example, supplies a > #10 EGC to bond the case of the battery, but this is not suitable for a > circuit with an ampacity of 210A per NEC Table 250.122. It's not addressed > in manuals from these manufacturers. > > It would be easy enough to run a #4 copper EGC with the 2/0 battery > cables, but where would you terminate it at the battery end? The case > ground screws are far too small. I suppose you could use a grounding > bushing if the raceway is not itself qualified as the EGC. In cases where > you have a conduit box like EG4 or if you set a Midnite AIO on a wiring > trough, they supply plastic bushings to use, so there is no solid > electrical continuity between the inverter and wiring trough, yet you > seemingly need to run up to a #4 EGC through the opening with the battery > cables. Where would that terminate in the trough or on the battery? > > I haven't had any issues with AHJs by just running a #10 with the circuit > conductors and making sure all metallic parts are bonded, but something > doesn't seem right about all of this, and I want to be prepared if called > out by an inspector. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 08DABE5B-FA3F-4528-B85B-5F47EFC6288C.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 12895 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Oct 3 11:52:38 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 11:52:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual radian system stopping selling on sunny days In-Reply-To: <5C9DF36E-E46D-4E94-962F-988888016B59@mavericksolar.com> References: <5C9DF36E-E46D-4E94-962F-988888016B59@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Here is a minor update. We got the Mate3 firmware updated. I also got a call back from Chris at tech support. He suggested that I disable Float Coordination and Auto Charge Termination Control in the Mate3. Since these changes, the issue has not happened. Although last year, the issue did not happen after this date either, even though we have been having some very clear sunny days. I have also not seen the battery SOC go from 99% to 100%. I am not sure if this means that the issue is fixed, or whether it would not have occurred at this point even if I did nothing. So I might have to wait until next year to know for sure. It was good to hear from Chris though, who has been there for something like 11 years. It sounds like they lost all their salesforce and customer information in the buyout, but I know that Chris knows his stuff when it comes to the Outback equipment. According to him, things are promising to get the old Outback style equipment back and available. Although, personally, they are going to have to prove themselves before I fully trust them, just like any new manufacturer. Cheers, Dave On Sat, Sep 27, 2025 at 9:16 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Great! > > I was driving yesterday, and couldn’t find this document. > > I had this issue pop up on a dual stack and found out the inverter charger > had been turned off. Turned it back on via the Charger button on the MATE3S > and BAM! Offset changed to Selling. > > I set: > SellRE = 53.6 > CC.FLT = 54.4 > CC.ABS = 55.2 > > I measure these at the battery and make adjustments (either in calibration > settings or by changing the above numbers). > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Sep 26, 2025, at 10:40 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > It's also worth considering temperature compensation and how that may > affect the dynamic...also the CCs float and absorb should be set slightly > higher than the inverters. Regarding offset behavior, here is an > application note that may help.. > > > https://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/offset_tech_note_correc.pdf > > > > > On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 8:23 PM Tyrone Houck wrote: > >> Forgive me if I'm missing something but typically I would have sell >> voltage slightly higher than float and lower than absorb.. I also never use >> the FNDC for charge termination and instead let the charge controller do >> everything by voltage... this may be a slightly different logic for lifepo4 >> but has always worked great for me for lead acid and agms. >> Best of luck! >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 10:52 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> To the Outback extraordinaires, >>> >>> I've got a dual radian, grid tied system that has been in service for >>> about 9 years. Recently, it has started this behavior where it will stop >>> selling to the grid on sunny days. Looking back at the data, this has >>> happened intermittently and very infrequently a couple years ago. But now >>> we are at the point where it happens every sunny day. Once the batteries >>> get up to fully 100% charged (not 99%), the selling stops and the system >>> only harvests enough solar to cover the backed up loads. >>> >>> I got a hold of the USB card data. It appears that the inverter goes >>> from "Sell Enabled" to "Offset" when this happens. I cannot tell whether >>> the inverter randomly decides to switch mode and then stop selling, or >>> whether it is the stopping selling that puts it in "Offset" mode. The sell >>> voltage is set at 52V, and float is set to 54.4V. It looks like the >>> batteries are generally sitting around 54V when this happens. Once the >>> inverter enters "offset" mode, then the battery voltage stays steady at >>> 54.0V >>> >>> Does anyone have any idea what can be causing this to happen? >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> -- >>> >>> [image: Logo] >>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>> p: he | him | his >>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>> >>> >>> | Ithaca, >>> NY 14850 >>> >>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 16:22:12 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 14:22:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual radian system stopping selling on sunny days In-Reply-To: References: <5C9DF36E-E46D-4E94-962F-988888016B59@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <34A1D0D8-CAB1-4316-A14A-7593B2175644@gmail.com> I haven’t done many grid connected systems so I can’t tell you if float coordination is valuable or not, for off grid it is, as its kinda impossible to get multiple controllers synchronized and its hard to see how float coordination would impact the issue you had. Auto change termination I don’t use, as it relies on the FNDC which will get off in its counting and it then stops the charge usually too soon which starts a whole list of failures soon to happen. That could definitely have been an issue. As to his comments about outback, agreed they will have to do some amazing proving before I use them again. jay > On Oct 3, 2025, at 9:52 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Here is a minor update. We got the Mate3 firmware updated. I also got a call back from Chris at tech support. He suggested that I disable Float Coordination and Auto Charge Termination Control in the Mate3. Since these changes, the issue has not happened. Although last year, the issue did not happen after this date either, even though we have been having some very clear sunny days. I have also not seen the battery SOC go from 99% to 100%. I am not sure if this means that the issue is fixed, or whether it would not have occurred at this point even if I did nothing. So I might have to wait until next year to know for sure. > > It was good to hear from Chris though, who has been there for something like 11 years. It sounds like they lost all their salesforce and customer information in the buyout, but I know that Chris knows his stuff when it comes to the Outback equipment. According to him, things are promising to get the old Outback style equipment back and available. Although, personally, they are going to have to prove themselves before I fully trust them, just like any new manufacturer. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Sat, Sep 27, 2025 at 9:16 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Great! >> >> I was driving yesterday, and couldn’t find this document. >> >> I had this issue pop up on a dual stack and found out the inverter charger had been turned off. Turned it back on via the Charger button on the MATE3S and BAM! Offset changed to Selling. >> >> I set: >> SellRE = 53.6 >> CC.FLT = 54.4 >> CC.ABS = 55.2 >> >> I measure these at the battery and make adjustments (either in calibration settings or by changing the above numbers). >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >>> On Sep 26, 2025, at 10:40 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> It's also worth considering temperature compensation and how that may affect the dynamic...also the CCs float and absorb should be set slightly higher than the inverters. Regarding offset behavior, here is an application note that may help.. >>> >>> https://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/offset_tech_note_correc.pdf >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 8:23 PM Tyrone Houck > wrote: >>>> Forgive me if I'm missing something but typically I would have sell voltage slightly higher than float and lower than absorb.. I also never use the FNDC for charge termination and instead let the charge controller do everything by voltage... this may be a slightly different logic for lifepo4 but has always worked great for me for lead acid and agms. >>>> Best of luck! >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 26, 2025, 10:52 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> To the Outback extraordinaires, >>>>> >>>>> I've got a dual radian, grid tied system that has been in service for about 9 years. Recently, it has started this behavior where it will stop selling to the grid on sunny days. Looking back at the data, this has happened intermittently and very infrequently a couple years ago. But now we are at the point where it happens every sunny day. Once the batteries get up to fully 100% charged (not 99%), the selling stops and the system only harvests enough solar to cover the backed up loads. >>>>> >>>>> I got a hold of the USB card data. It appears that the inverter goes from "Sell Enabled" to "Offset" when this happens. I cannot tell whether the inverter randomly decides to switch mode and then stop selling, or whether it is the stopping selling that puts it in "Offset" mode. The sell voltage is set at 52V, and float is set to 54.4V. It looks like the batteries are generally sitting around 54V when this happens. Once the inverter enters "offset" mode, then the battery voltage stays steady at 54.0V >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone have any idea what can be causing this to happen? >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd.   | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump3391 at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 19:05:08 2025 From: tump3391 at gmail.com (Blair May) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2025 19:05:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] need to set up an older generac remote start circuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59E8171C-D9C5-407A-A085-EBA583BC545B@gmail.com> With the ATS, the generator is supplied utility power not only to keep the starter battery charged but when the gen in “auto” it is sensing the utility power and when that goes away, actuates the start cycle. > On Oct 2, 2025, at 12:39 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Generac makes a 2-wire conversion kit, but it's for newer models than the one I'm stuck with unfortunately. > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 12:35 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > One Generac I worked on needed a module to convert to two wire start. Plus there was some programming. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 9:23 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Hello folks, > > This Generac belongs to an old customer. He picked it up used. Runs good, but apparently was used w/ an ATS, which is no longer present. > No doc's, no labels to identify model. > > But I have set up a remote start in a similar model 20+ years ago.w/o the ATS, just can't remember how. Terminals 23 & 194 connect to the ATS contactor coil to change state when it starts, I just can't remember the easy way to initiate the start command itself. There don't appear to be additional terminals for a dedicated start signal. > > The red and black wires come from inverter AC to keep battery trickle charger energized, etc. I wonder if simulating loss of this AC, with genny control switch in auto mode, would initiate the run cycle. > > In the meantime, any insights from my fellow old-timers (new ones welcome, too)? Thanks. > > > > I've worked on this mo > > -- > > > <> > Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh at vermont.solar > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!! > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > <> > Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh at vermont.solar > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!! > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Blair “TUMP” May Solarwinds Northernlights east "We must all learn to live together as brothers, or we all will perish as fools." MLK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 505047 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Oct 5 09:31:27 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2025 09:31:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GridBoss with Multiple FlexBoss Parallel Comms Message-ID: The manual seems to indicate diagrammatically that a Cat5 cable is required between the GridBoss and each FlexBoss inverter, but the text seems to indicate only a single Cat5 wire is required between the GridBoss and master FlexBoss. Can anyone confirm if a single Cat5 will work? I have a 100 foot run from the GridBoss to my inverters. I'm thinking about using a single Cat5 cable for comms and a CL3R cable for the RSD connection through the attic. Obviously, the included parallel cable should be used between the inverters. I get that part. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brett at oregonsunwrangler.com Sun Oct 5 17:34:48 2025 From: brett at oregonsunwrangler.com (Brett Stigile) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2025 15:34:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GridBoss with Multiple FlexBoss Parallel Comms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2a64b2b7ef643db15155412dc4dfadb7@oregonsunwrangler.com> Jasson I just did a GridBoss job. Two cat5 cables are needed between Inverters and GridBoss. See diagrams on Gridboss manual page 36 and 37. One very useful thing I found was the extra help when commissioning the system for the first time. You can log into PowerStation go to Forms then schedule a conference call. Through the conference call you can simply share your screen and they can walk you through the last few details. --- Brett Stigile Owner/Renewable Energy Electrician 503-317-7950 brett at oregonsunwrangler.com Oregon Sun Wrangler LLC CCB: 240661 License: 66LRT NABCEP PV Installation Professional certification: PV 100414-008123 On 2025-10-05 14:02, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > > > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the > Subject: line to the exact original, and please edit out any extraneous > lines from the quoted message. > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. GridBoss with Multiple FlexBoss Parallel Comms (Jason Szumlanski) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2025 09:31:27 -0400 > From: Jason Szumlanski > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] GridBoss with Multiple FlexBoss Parallel Comms > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > The manual seems to indicate diagrammatically that a Cat5 cable is > required > between the GridBoss and each FlexBoss inverter, but the text seems to > indicate only a single Cat5 wire is required between the GridBoss and > master FlexBoss. > > Can anyone confirm if a single Cat5 will work? > > I have a 100 foot run from the GridBoss to my inverters. I'm thinking > about > using a single Cat5 cable for comms and a CL3R cable for the RSD > connection > through the attic. > > Obviously, the included parallel cable should be used between the > inverters. I get that part. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 18, Issue 392 > ******************************************** From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Oct 6 06:00:26 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2025 06:00:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GridBoss with Multiple FlexBoss Parallel Comms In-Reply-To: <2a64b2b7ef643db15155412dc4dfadb7@oregonsunwrangler.com> References: <2a64b2b7ef643db15155412dc4dfadb7@oregonsunwrangler.com> Message-ID: I see that diagram in the manual, but it is still strange to me that you need two cables. It seems redundant to make a loop like this. The FlexBoss manual has a similar diagram for paralleling inverters (without the GridBoss), but it states: *If only two inverters are installed only one parallel cable is required. Two parallel cables will provide redundancy in the event one cable is disconnected or stops working.* I don't think I have ever seen something like that with Cat5 wiring. I would think it would cause more problems than it would solve. I'm going to run two cables today, but I will try just one to see if it works. I'll let you know. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sun, Oct 5, 2025 at 5:36 PM Brett Stigile via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jasson > > I just did a GridBoss job. Two cat5 cables are needed between Inverters > and GridBoss. See diagrams on Gridboss manual page 36 and 37. > > One very useful thing I found was the extra help when commissioning the > system for the first time. You can log into PowerStation go to Forms > then schedule a conference call. Through the conference call you can > simply share your screen and they can walk you through the last few > details. > > > --- > Brett Stigile > Owner/Renewable Energy Electrician > 503-317-7950 > brett at oregonsunwrangler.com > > Oregon Sun Wrangler LLC > CCB: 240661 > License: 66LRT > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > certification: PV 100414-008123 > > On 2025-10-05 14:02, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: > > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > > > > > > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the > > Subject: line to the exact original, and please edit out any extraneous > > lines from the quoted message. > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. GridBoss with Multiple FlexBoss Parallel Comms (Jason Szumlanski) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2025 09:31:27 -0400 > > From: Jason Szumlanski > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] GridBoss with Multiple FlexBoss Parallel Comms > > Message-ID: > > 6eQ at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > The manual seems to indicate diagrammatically that a Cat5 cable is > > required > > between the GridBoss and each FlexBoss inverter, but the text seems to > > indicate only a single Cat5 wire is required between the GridBoss and > > master FlexBoss. > > > > Can anyone confirm if a single Cat5 will work? > > > > I have a 100 foot run from the GridBoss to my inverters. I'm thinking > > about > > using a single Cat5 cable for comms and a CL3R cable for the RSD > > connection > > through the attic. > > > > Obviously, the included parallel cable should be used between the > > inverters. I get that part. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20251005/6540f807/attachment-0001.htm > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Subject: Digest Footer > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 18, Issue 392 > > ******************************************** > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 11:56:52 2025 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2025 11:56:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 12K Sol-Ark Message-ID: <00C41817-B4E5-4B10-9C11-6E524D506C11@gmail.com> Hello Wrenches, I’ve been trying to research the threads here for what relief, if any, Installers have gotten from Sol-Ark for there false claims of the AC Load Output of the 12K. (I know, I know… As one of our awesome Installers from Maine told me, “Don’t drink the koolaid!) Thanks ahead of time. Amanda Potter Energy Storage Systems NABCEP PVIP Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC (315) 212-2114 From david at quattrosolar.com Mon Oct 6 13:51:48 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2025 10:51:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 12K Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <00C41817-B4E5-4B10-9C11-6E524D506C11@gmail.com> References: <00C41817-B4E5-4B10-9C11-6E524D506C11@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am keen on how this goes for you. To SolArk's credit, I have one 12K in my fleet that regularly sees 37.5A on one of the AC legs while on Grid. It alarms out exactly at 37.5A which is consistent with their cut sheet. Someone in their tech support team at one point told me the error code was caused by an imbalance between phases, so I installed an autotransformer at that site. I no longer think that person's analysis was correct, but oddly we have not had any error codes since we installed the autotransformer! Good luck On Mon, Oct 6, 2025 at 8:57 AM Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > I’ve been trying to research the threads here for what relief, if any, > Installers have gotten from Sol-Ark for there false claims of the AC Load > Output of the 12K. > > (I know, I know… As one of our awesome Installers from Maine told me, > “Don’t drink the koolaid!) > > Thanks ahead of time. > > Amanda Potter > Energy Storage Systems > NABCEP PVIP > Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC > (315) 212-2114 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 14:34:34 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2025 11:34:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 12K Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <00C41817-B4E5-4B10-9C11-6E524D506C11@gmail.com> References: <00C41817-B4E5-4B10-9C11-6E524D506C11@gmail.com> Message-ID: Im confused as to your question. Are you finding that the sol ark is not able to operate at 9k continuous on the output? Or that it won't pass 12k on the input with AC coupling? On Mon, Oct 6, 2025, 8:57 AM Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > I’ve been trying to research the threads here for what relief, if any, > Installers have gotten from Sol-Ark for there false claims of the AC Load > Output of the 12K. > > (I know, I know… As one of our awesome Installers from Maine told me, > “Don’t drink the koolaid!) > > Thanks ahead of time. > > Amanda Potter > Energy Storage Systems > NABCEP PVIP > Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC > (315) 212-2114 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 12:03:35 2025 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2025 12:03:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 12K Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E3589A8-1CA7-4053-B2B4-B6FA7140CE57@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 12:34:01 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2025 10:34:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 12K Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <7E3589A8-1CA7-4053-B2B4-B6FA7140CE57@gmail.com> References: <7E3589A8-1CA7-4053-B2B4-B6FA7140CE57@gmail.com> Message-ID: <370A539F-8999-4467-A05B-DE612F00173E@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Tue Oct 7 13:24:00 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2025 10:24:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 12K Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <370A539F-8999-4467-A05B-DE612F00173E@gmail.com> References: <7E3589A8-1CA7-4053-B2B4-B6FA7140CE57@gmail.com> <370A539F-8999-4467-A05B-DE612F00173E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Amanda, Not an answer we like, but perhaps the most practical: *OutBack Power FW-X240 FLEXware Autotransformer* FW-X240 I bought this autoformer through StellaVolta. There may be cheaper options. Through small claims, you could try to force SolArk to reimburse you for the autoformer and the labor to install. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 20:35:26 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2025 20:35:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 12K Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <7E3589A8-1CA7-4053-B2B4-B6FA7140CE57@gmail.com> <370A539F-8999-4467-A05B-DE612F00173E@gmail.com> Message-ID: The Sol-Ark 12K falls on its face with 120v inductive loads. It’s an imbalance issue, but really caused by the lack of a transformer. Sol-Ark has stated that the 12K unit tops out at 2.5 HP. I have had luck installing autotransformers as well. The Outback PSX240 was my go to, but it looks like price of that has doubled in the past few years. Victron makes a 100A transformer for a fraction of the cost. It seems like this issue has been resolved in the Sol-Ark 15K design, and I have yet to run into the same trouble. On Tue, Oct 7, 2025 at 1:25 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Amanda, Not an answer we like, but perhaps the most practical: > *OutBack Power FW-X240 FLEXware Autotransformer* > FW-X240 > I bought this autoformer through StellaVolta. There may be cheaper options. > Through small claims, you could try to force SolArk to reimburse you for > the autoformer and the labor to install. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Oct 8 17:37:41 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2025 17:37:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternatives to Fortress guardian? Message-ID: I’d like to find a less expensive way than the Guardian to monitor a Fortress Evault battery. (No Envy inverter, open loop w/ Magnum.)Third party something? My cost on the guardian is now close to $500. It was a little over $300 years ago at this time. Tariffs possibly. All the customer really needs is battery SOC So he can go to the site and manually start the generator if necessary. He lives a few miles away and doesn’t trust remote auto-start given the generator’s condition. I could just park a cheap security camera right in front of the E vault display since we’ll have Wi-Fi there, if the evault display can be set to illuminate constantly, as it is a touchscreen. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 17:44:39 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2025 15:44:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternatives to Fortress guardian? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Oct 8 19:01:54 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2025 19:01:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternatives to Fortress guardian? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, but Fronius products are not supported by Solar assistant. And there is nothing on their website about merely supporting a smart battery bank or BMS of any kind. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Wed, Oct 8, 2025 at 5:46 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason has talked about solar assistant. Have you checked that out? > > On Oct 8, 2025, at 3:38 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I’d like to find a less expensive way than the Guardian to monitor a > Fortress Evault battery. (No Envy inverter, open loop w/ Magnum.)Third > party something? > My cost on the guardian is now close to $500. It was a little over $300 > years ago at this time. Tariffs possibly. > > All the customer really needs is battery SOC > So he can go to the site and manually start the generator if necessary. He > lives a few miles away and doesn’t trust remote auto-start given the > generator’s condition. > > I could just park a cheap security camera right in front of the E vault > display since we’ll have Wi-Fi there, if the evault display can be set to > illuminate constantly, as it is a touchscreen. > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 19:04:13 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2025 19:04:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternatives to Fortress guardian? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had a customer place a ring camera in front of their eVault’s screen to be able to monitor from out of state. I thought that was a clever approach. I know that some versions auto dim, but values are still visible. On Wed, Oct 8, 2025 at 5:45 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason has talked about solar assistant. Have you checked that out? > > On Oct 8, 2025, at 3:38 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > I’d like to find a less expensive way than the Guardian to monitor a > Fortress Evault battery. (No Envy inverter, open loop w/ Magnum.)Third > party something? > My cost on the guardian is now close to $500. It was a little over $300 > years ago at this time. Tariffs possibly. > > All the customer really needs is battery SOC > So he can go to the site and manually start the generator if necessary. He > lives a few miles away and doesn’t trust remote auto-start given the > generator’s condition. > > I could just park a cheap security camera right in front of the E vault > display since we’ll have Wi-Fi there, if the evault display can be set to > illuminate constantly, as it is a touchscreen. > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Oct 8 19:08:47 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2025 19:08:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternatives to Fortress guardian? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That’s what I’m leaning towards. I’m just not sure if I can somehow keep the touchscreen turned on. I don’t have the manual in front of me and it may not tell us anyway if there’s a setting for it. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Wed, Oct 8, 2025 at 7:04 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I had a customer place a ring camera in front of their eVault’s screen to > be able to monitor from out of state. I thought that was a clever approach. > I know that some versions auto dim, but values are still visible. > > On Wed, Oct 8, 2025 at 5:45 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason has talked about solar assistant. Have you checked that out? >> >> On Oct 8, 2025, at 3:38 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> I’d like to find a less expensive way than the Guardian to monitor a >> Fortress Evault battery. (No Envy inverter, open loop w/ Magnum.)Third >> party something? >> My cost on the guardian is now close to $500. It was a little over $300 >> years ago at this time. Tariffs possibly. >> >> All the customer really needs is battery SOC >> So he can go to the site and manually start the generator if necessary. >> He lives a few miles away and doesn’t trust remote auto-start given the >> generator’s condition. >> >> I could just park a cheap security camera right in front of the E vault >> display since we’ll have Wi-Fi there, if the evault display can be set to >> illuminate constantly, as it is a touchscreen. >> >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 19:18:41 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2025 16:18:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie retrofit on an E-panel Message-ID: Greetings Wrenches, Has anyone tried updating an Outback E-panel to accommodate a Midnite Little Rosie yet? I'm still looking for ways to upgrade my VFX FXR systems with 24v inverters without having to buy from the new owners at Outback as well as solve battery communications and seems like a Little Rosie is quite doable. I'm told I can get a blank door from Midnite and appears that there are a few extra inches to spare relating to the LR and E-panel length. Beyond that getting the AC and DC conductors out of the LR through the E-panel door seems to be the only sticking point. Possibly just modifying a 4x4 wireway gutter would work. Thought perhaps one of you has already attempted this! Thanks for your time, Nick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Wed Oct 8 20:52:20 2025 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2025 17:52:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie retrofit on an E-panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nick, I recently looked into installing a Little Rosie on the door of an E-panel lite and decided against it. Just not enough room to get the battery cables connected. I ended up with the Little Rosie mounted vertically beside an E-panel lite. To tell you the truth I wasn't happy with the vertical installation of the little Rosie. Per the installation manual you are only allowed to mount it vertically in one orientation and that leaves the top of the Little Rosie at risk of dropping things into it through the ventilation slots. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/8/2025 4:18 PM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: > Greetings Wrenches, > > Has anyone tried updating an Outback E-panel to accommodate a Midnite > Little Rosie yet? I'm still looking for ways to upgrade my VFX FXR > systems with 24v inverters without having to buy from the new owners > at Outback as well as solve battery communications and seems like a > Little Rosie is quite doable. I'm told I can get a blank door from > Midnite and appears that there are a few extra inches to spare > relating to the LR and E-panel length. Beyond that getting the AC and > DC conductors out of the LR through the E-panel door seems to be the > only sticking point. Possibly just modifying a 4x4 wireway gutter > would work. > > Thought perhaps one of you has already attempted this! Thanks for your > time, Nick > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 12:52:09 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2025 09:52:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie retrofit on an E-panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great, thank you Kent. I didn't realize the AC and DC terminals needed to be on top, I should have read the manual before asking. I can now see how the access door would be blocked if there were also a charge controller mounted on the door. I thought the Plus models were wider than the Lite but it appears my assumption was wrong. Seems it could still work if the controller were mounted off on the side of the chassis but for now I'll try to come up with a better plan. Lots of mice around here so I can see how your point of dropping "things" into the top ventilation slots could really be an issue. Assuming your generator is large enough are you finding that the 60 amp DC charger is working on a similar ratio as the VFX's 45 amp charger? I appreciate your feedback! Nick On Wed, Oct 8, 2025 at 5:53 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Nick, > > I recently looked into installing a Little Rosie on the door of an > E-panel lite and decided against it. Just not enough room to get the > battery cables connected. I ended up with the Little Rosie mounted > vertically beside an E-panel lite. To tell you the truth I wasn't happy > with the vertical installation of the little Rosie. Per the installation > manual you are only allowed to mount it vertically in one orientation > and that leaves the top of the Little Rosie at risk of dropping things > into it through the ventilation slots. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 10/8/2025 4:18 PM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Greetings Wrenches, > > > > Has anyone tried updating an Outback E-panel to accommodate a Midnite > > Little Rosie yet? I'm still looking for ways to upgrade my VFX FXR > > systems with 24v inverters without having to buy from the new owners > > at Outback as well as solve battery communications and seems like a > > Little Rosie is quite doable. I'm told I can get a blank door from > > Midnite and appears that there are a few extra inches to spare > > relating to the LR and E-panel length. Beyond that getting the AC and > > DC conductors out of the LR through the E-panel door seems to be the > > only sticking point. Possibly just modifying a 4x4 wireway gutter > > would work. > > > > Thought perhaps one of you has already attempted this! Thanks for your > > time, Nick > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Oct 9 16:35:12 2025 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2025 13:35:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin post: Update your member bio pages Message-ID: <1760042124439.5114e164341cd8c8@re-wrenches.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 9 17:37:13 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2025 17:37:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Smart Loads (EG4 This Time) Message-ID: I recently expressed my disappointment that users cannot override or adjust the smart load settings on the Midnite AIO. I now realize that they can't easily override a smart load setting on an EG4 system with GridBoss, either. This seems like such a basic, necessary feature. Am I missing something? For example, if a "smart load" is set up to run only when the battery is between 50% and 100%, the user should be able to override that with the tap of a button to manually power the load if the battery is below 50%. You can't even rename a smart load circuit to determine what it is in the monitoring system. These smart load functions are really quite dumb and not very flexible. Even Enphase lets consumers easily override load-controlled circuits. Of any system, I would expect Enphase to lock consumers out of these functions since the brand is usually more consumer-oriented rather than enthusiast or off-gridder. These manufacturers need to do better if they want to market these features as "smart." Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Fri Oct 10 08:48:18 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2025 08:48:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie retrofit on an E-panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Little Rosie has a nice breaker box with plenty of room and options. But, the sheet metal is running behind from the US based manufacturer. Hopefully it will be available soon. On Thu, Oct 9, 2025 at 12:53 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Great, thank you Kent. I didn't realize the AC and DC terminals needed to > be on top, I should have read the manual before asking. I can now see how > the access door would be blocked if there were also a charge controller > mounted on the door. I thought the Plus models were wider than the Lite but > it appears my assumption was wrong. Seems it could still work if the > controller were mounted off on the side of the chassis but for now I'll try > to come up with a better plan. Lots of mice around here so I can see how > your point of dropping "things" into the top ventilation slots could really > be an issue. > > Assuming your generator is large enough are you finding that the 60 amp DC > charger is working on a similar ratio as the VFX's 45 amp charger? > > I appreciate your feedback! > > Nick > > On Wed, Oct 8, 2025 at 5:53 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Nick, >> >> I recently looked into installing a Little Rosie on the door of an >> E-panel lite and decided against it. Just not enough room to get the >> battery cables connected. I ended up with the Little Rosie mounted >> vertically beside an E-panel lite. To tell you the truth I wasn't happy >> with the vertical installation of the little Rosie. Per the installation >> manual you are only allowed to mount it vertically in one orientation >> and that leaves the top of the Little Rosie at risk of dropping things >> into it through the ventilation slots. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 10/8/2025 4:18 PM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: >> > Greetings Wrenches, >> > >> > Has anyone tried updating an Outback E-panel to accommodate a Midnite >> > Little Rosie yet? I'm still looking for ways to upgrade my VFX FXR >> > systems with 24v inverters without having to buy from the new owners >> > at Outback as well as solve battery communications and seems like a >> > Little Rosie is quite doable. I'm told I can get a blank door from >> > Midnite and appears that there are a few extra inches to spare >> > relating to the LR and E-panel length. Beyond that getting the AC and >> > DC conductors out of the LR through the E-panel door seems to be the >> > only sticking point. Possibly just modifying a 4x4 wireway gutter >> > would work. >> > >> > Thought perhaps one of you has already attempted this! Thanks for your >> > time, Nick >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Sat Oct 11 11:08:49 2025 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2025 15:08:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie Breaker Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is the breaker box you mention anywhere on MidNite’s website ? Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent from Jeremy's iPhone. On Oct 10, 2025, at 6:49 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote:  The Little Rosie has a nice breaker box with plenty of room and options. But, the sheet metal is running behind from the US based manufacturer. Hopefully it will be available soon. On Thu, Oct 9, 2025 at 12:53 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > wrote: Great, thank you Kent. I didn't realize the AC and DC terminals needed to be on top, I should have read the manual before asking. I can now see how the access door would be blocked if there were also a charge controller mounted on the door. I thought the Plus models were wider than the Lite but it appears my assumption was wrong. Seems it could still work if the controller were mounted off on the side of the chassis but for now I'll try to come up with a better plan. Lots of mice around here so I can see how your point of dropping "things" into the top ventilation slots could really be an issue. Assuming your generator is large enough are you finding that the 60 amp DC charger is working on a similar ratio as the VFX's 45 amp charger? I appreciate your feedback! Nick On Wed, Oct 8, 2025 at 5:53 PM Kent via RE-wrenches > wrote: Nick, I recently looked into installing a Little Rosie on the door of an E-panel lite and decided against it. Just not enough room to get the battery cables connected. I ended up with the Little Rosie mounted vertically beside an E-panel lite. To tell you the truth I wasn't happy with the vertical installation of the little Rosie. Per the installation manual you are only allowed to mount it vertically in one orientation and that leaves the top of the Little Rosie at risk of dropping things into it through the ventilation slots. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/8/2025 4:18 PM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: > Greetings Wrenches, > > Has anyone tried updating an Outback E-panel to accommodate a Midnite > Little Rosie yet? I'm still looking for ways to upgrade my VFX FXR > systems with 24v inverters without having to buy from the new owners > at Outback as well as solve battery communications and seems like a > Little Rosie is quite doable. I'm told I can get a blank door from > Midnite and appears that there are a few extra inches to spare > relating to the LR and E-panel length. Beyond that getting the AC and > DC conductors out of the LR through the E-panel door seems to be the > only sticking point. Possibly just modifying a 4x4 wireway gutter > would work. > > Thought perhaps one of you has already attempted this! Thanks for your > time, Nick > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Oct 11 15:12:51 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2025 13:12:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie Breaker Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68969756-7371-4fed-a7a7-a4dd1ff40411@solarray.com> Maybe I'm missing something, but I just skimmed through the manual, and it appears the Little RosieM is meant for mobile applications.  It mentions an RE version for off grid, but I can't find that anywhere.  The manual just discusses class T fuses, makes no mention of breakers.  It looks like a cool inverter with a form factor similar to an old Trace DR, but not really seeing the usual matching Midnite BOS components we've come to expect. My guess is they're working on all of that for the RE version, which isn't quite ready. In the meantime, one of their E panel lites could be used.  You'd have some exposed DC cable though, which seems to be the "IN" thing these days with many of the latest LiPO4 batteries.......:) Apparently, one man's code compliance is another man's unnecessary hangup........Also don't wire the neutral through the switched neutral relay in the inverter. Personally, I'd just wait for the RE version and the accompanying BOS to come out.  Maybe a Victron in the meantime?  Used Magnum on Flea Bay?  The pickin's are slim for us poor off grid installers these days.... Ray Walters Remote Solar On 10/11/2025 9:08 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > Is the breaker box you mention anywhere on MidNite’s website ? > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent from Jeremy's iPhone. > >> On Oct 10, 2025, at 6:49 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> The Little Rosie has a nice breaker box with plenty of room and >> options. But, the sheet metal is running behind from the US based >> manufacturer. >> Hopefully it will be available soon. >> >> On Thu, Oct 9, 2025 at 12:53 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Great, thank you Kent. I didn't realize the AC and DC terminals >> needed to be on top, I should have read the manual before asking. >> I can now see how the access door would be blocked if there were >> also a charge controller mounted on the door. I thought the Plus >> models were wider than the Lite but it appears my assumption was >> wrong. Seems it could still work if the controller were mounted >> off on the side of the chassis but for now I'll try to come up >> with a better plan. Lots of mice around here so I can see how >> your point of dropping "things" into the top ventilation slots >> could really be an issue. >> >> Assuming your generator is large enough are you finding that the >> 60 amp DC charger is working on a similar ratio as the VFX's 45 >> amp charger? >> >> I appreciate your feedback! >> >> Nick >> >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2025 at 5:53 PM Kent via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Nick, >> >> I recently looked into installing a Little Rosie on the door >> of an >> E-panel lite and decided against it. Just not enough room to >> get the >> battery cables connected. I ended up with the Little Rosie >> mounted >> vertically beside an E-panel lite. To tell you the truth I >> wasn't happy >> with the vertical installation of the little Rosie. Per the >> installation >> manual you are only allowed to mount it vertically in one >> orientation >> and that leaves the top of the Little Rosie at risk of >> dropping things >> into it through the ventilation slots. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 10/8/2025 4:18 PM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: >> > Greetings Wrenches, >> > >> > Has anyone tried updating an Outback E-panel to >> accommodate a Midnite >> > Little Rosie yet? I'm still looking for ways to upgrade my >> VFX FXR >> > systems with 24v inverters without having to buy from the >> new owners >> > at Outback as well as solve battery communications and >> seems like a >> > Little Rosie is quite doable. I'm told I can get a blank >> door from >> > Midnite and appears that there are a few extra inches to spare >> > relating to the LR and E-panel length. Beyond that getting >> the AC and >> > DC conductors out of the LR through the E-panel door seems >> to be the >> > only sticking point. Possibly just modifying a 4x4 wireway >> gutter >> > would work. >> > >> > Thought perhaps one of you has already attempted this! >> Thanks for your >> > time, Nick >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 11 15:39:37 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2025 13:39:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie Breaker Box In-Reply-To: <68969756-7371-4fed-a7a7-a4dd1ff40411@solarray.com> References: <68969756-7371-4fed-a7a7-a4dd1ff40411@solarray.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Sat Oct 11 16:55:50 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2025 13:55:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie Breaker Box In-Reply-To: <68969756-7371-4fed-a7a7-a4dd1ff40411@solarray.com> References: <68969756-7371-4fed-a7a7-a4dd1ff40411@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hello Ray. Zonna now has a few of the RE versions in stock. I was thinking one could get fancy to cover the AC and DC cables by mounting the inverter on an E-panel in the approved orientation with a significantly modified 4x4x12 wireway but then it probably wouldn't have enough ventilation through the wireway to reach the LR's ventilation slots. Seems like for now either Kent's suggestion is best or perhaps of course wait for a specific Midnite solution (still unclear what that is of course). Maybe Logan can clarify if the sheet metal he was speaking about is for the inverter chassis or an E-panel specifically built for the Little Rosie? A retrofit option would be best for me but perhaps they don't see much market demand for it. Jay, did you find an actual E-panel for the LR in their documents somewhere? Nick On Sat, Oct 11, 2025 at 12:15 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Maybe I'm missing something, but I just skimmed through the manual, and it > appears the Little RosieM is meant for mobile applications. It mentions an > RE version for off grid, but I can't find that anywhere. The manual just > discusses class T fuses, makes no mention of breakers. It looks like a > cool inverter with a form factor similar to an old Trace DR, but not really > seeing the usual matching Midnite BOS components we've come to expect. My > guess is they're working on all of that for the RE version, which isn't > quite ready. > > In the meantime, one of their E panel lites could be used. You'd have > some exposed DC cable though, which seems to be the "IN" thing these days > with many of the latest LiPO4 batteries.......:) Apparently, one man's > code compliance is another man's unnecessary hangup........Also don't wire > the neutral through the switched neutral relay in the inverter. > > Personally, I'd just wait for the RE version and the accompanying BOS to > come out. Maybe a Victron in the meantime? Used Magnum on Flea Bay? The > pickin's are slim for us poor off grid installers these days.... > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > > On 10/11/2025 9:08 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Is the breaker box you mention anywhere on MidNite’s website ? > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent from Jeremy's iPhone. > > On Oct 10, 2025, at 6:49 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > >  > The Little Rosie has a nice breaker box with plenty of room and options. > But, the sheet metal is running behind from the US based manufacturer. > Hopefully it will be available soon. > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2025 at 12:53 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Great, thank you Kent. I didn't realize the AC and DC terminals needed to >> be on top, I should have read the manual before asking. I can now see how >> the access door would be blocked if there were also a charge controller >> mounted on the door. I thought the Plus models were wider than the Lite but >> it appears my assumption was wrong. Seems it could still work if the >> controller were mounted off on the side of the chassis but for now I'll try >> to come up with a better plan. Lots of mice around here so I can see how >> your point of dropping "things" into the top ventilation slots could really >> be an issue. >> >> Assuming your generator is large enough are you finding that the 60 amp >> DC charger is working on a similar ratio as the VFX's 45 amp charger? >> >> I appreciate your feedback! >> >> Nick >> >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2025 at 5:53 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Nick, >>> >>> I recently looked into installing a Little Rosie on the door of an >>> E-panel lite and decided against it. Just not enough room to get the >>> battery cables connected. I ended up with the Little Rosie mounted >>> vertically beside an E-panel lite. To tell you the truth I wasn't happy >>> with the vertical installation of the little Rosie. Per the installation >>> manual you are only allowed to mount it vertically in one orientation >>> and that leaves the top of the Little Rosie at risk of dropping things >>> into it through the ventilation slots. >>> >>> Kent Osterberg >>> Blue Mountain Solar >>> >>> >>> On 10/8/2025 4:18 PM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> > Greetings Wrenches, >>> > >>> > Has anyone tried updating an Outback E-panel to accommodate a Midnite >>> > Little Rosie yet? I'm still looking for ways to upgrade my VFX FXR >>> > systems with 24v inverters without having to buy from the new owners >>> > at Outback as well as solve battery communications and seems like a >>> > Little Rosie is quite doable. I'm told I can get a blank door from >>> > Midnite and appears that there are a few extra inches to spare >>> > relating to the LR and E-panel length. Beyond that getting the AC and >>> > DC conductors out of the LR through the E-panel door seems to be the >>> > only sticking point. Possibly just modifying a 4x4 wireway gutter >>> > would work. >>> > >>> > Thought perhaps one of you has already attempted this! Thanks for your >>> > time, Nick >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 11 17:35:59 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2025 15:35:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie Breaker Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Sat Oct 11 16:18:31 2025 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Richard Nicol) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2025 16:18:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie Breaker Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1BEEB38A-4258-4A41-8200-B4A36BAEF5D1@solartechvt.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Sun Oct 12 11:16:56 2025 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2025 15:16:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie Breaker Box In-Reply-To: <1BEEB38A-4258-4A41-8200-B4A36BAEF5D1@solartechvt.com> References: <1BEEB38A-4258-4A41-8200-B4A36BAEF5D1@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: Speaking of the Little Rosie, is there a bracket available to wall mount the MNGP2? Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent from Jeremy's iPhone. On Oct 11, 2025, at 6:57 PM, Richard Nicol via RE-wrenches wrote:  Midnite has the mobile version of the little Rosie, but has recently released the residential with UL listing as well. It’s 4500 watt/48 volt with canbus coms for closed loop but also traditional open loop battery programming. The mounting orientation, as previously discussed, for the residential version has to do with the UL listing I was told. The little Rosie specific e panel, which has been delayed, is the only way to mount it “right side up” because the panel being below influences the UL listing. It’s frustrating to mount it sideways or upside down as required without the e panel because it puts the typical Midnite exceptional graphic design of the logo in the wrong orientation! Sent from my iPhone On Oct 11, 2025, at 3:40 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote:  Hi guys Look below the mobile version and you’ll find the RE versions which are larger wattage. They also have their own E panels, CC brackets, monitoring etc. Jay On Oct 11, 2025, at 1:14 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:  Maybe I'm missing something, but I just skimmed through the manual, and it appears the Little RosieM is meant for mobile applications. It mentions an RE version for off grid, but I can't find that anywhere. The manual just discusses class T fuses, makes no mention of breakers. It looks like a cool inverter with a form factor similar to an old Trace DR, but not really seeing the usual matching Midnite BOS components we've come to expect. My guess is they're working on all of that for the RE version, which isn't quite ready. In the meantime, one of their E panel lites could be used. You'd have some exposed DC cable though, which seems to be the "IN" thing these days with many of the latest LiPO4 batteries.......:) Apparently, one man's code compliance is another man's unnecessary hangup........Also don't wire the neutral through the switched neutral relay in the inverter. Personally, I'd just wait for the RE version and the accompanying BOS to come out. Maybe a Victron in the meantime? Used Magnum on Flea Bay? The pickin's are slim for us poor off grid installers these days.... Ray Walters Remote Solar On 10/11/2025 9:08 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: Is the breaker box you mention anywhere on MidNite’s website ? Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent from Jeremy's iPhone. On Oct 10, 2025, at 6:49 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote:  The Little Rosie has a nice breaker box with plenty of room and options. But, the sheet metal is running behind from the US based manufacturer. Hopefully it will be available soon. On Thu, Oct 9, 2025 at 12:53 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > wrote: Great, thank you Kent. I didn't realize the AC and DC terminals needed to be on top, I should have read the manual before asking. I can now see how the access door would be blocked if there were also a charge controller mounted on the door. I thought the Plus models were wider than the Lite but it appears my assumption was wrong. Seems it could still work if the controller were mounted off on the side of the chassis but for now I'll try to come up with a better plan. Lots of mice around here so I can see how your point of dropping "things" into the top ventilation slots could really be an issue. Assuming your generator is large enough are you finding that the 60 amp DC charger is working on a similar ratio as the VFX's 45 amp charger? I appreciate your feedback! Nick On Wed, Oct 8, 2025 at 5:53 PM Kent via RE-wrenches > wrote: Nick, I recently looked into installing a Little Rosie on the door of an E-panel lite and decided against it. Just not enough room to get the battery cables connected. I ended up with the Little Rosie mounted vertically beside an E-panel lite. To tell you the truth I wasn't happy with the vertical installation of the little Rosie. Per the installation manual you are only allowed to mount it vertically in one orientation and that leaves the top of the Little Rosie at risk of dropping things into it through the ventilation slots. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/8/2025 4:18 PM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: > Greetings Wrenches, > > Has anyone tried updating an Outback E-panel to accommodate a Midnite > Little Rosie yet? I'm still looking for ways to upgrade my VFX FXR > systems with 24v inverters without having to buy from the new owners > at Outback as well as solve battery communications and seems like a > Little Rosie is quite doable. I'm told I can get a blank door from > Midnite and appears that there are a few extra inches to spare > relating to the LR and E-panel length. Beyond that getting the AC and > DC conductors out of the LR through the E-panel door seems to be the > only sticking point. Possibly just modifying a 4x4 wireway gutter > would work. > > Thought perhaps one of you has already attempted this! Thanks for your > time, Nick > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Sun Oct 12 12:20:01 2025 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Richard Nicol) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2025 12:20:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie Breaker Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Sun Oct 12 12:53:44 2025 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2025 09:53:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie Breaker Box In-Reply-To: <68969756-7371-4fed-a7a7-a4dd1ff40411@solarray.com> References: <68969756-7371-4fed-a7a7-a4dd1ff40411@solarray.com> Message-ID: <407b7300-f9b6-48ec-aef1-9cbad1d39238@coveoregon.com> Ray, The mobile version of the Little Rosie is listed to UL489 and UL1741 so it can be used in residential applications as well as mobile applications. The neutral bond switching makes particular sense for using the Little Rosie with a portable generator, which is appropriate for a small inverter. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/11/2025 12:12 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Maybe I'm missing something, but I just skimmed through the manual, > and it appears the Little RosieM is meant for mobile applications.  It > mentions an RE version for off grid, but I can't find that anywhere.  > The manual just discusses class T fuses, makes no mention of > breakers.  It looks like a cool inverter with a form factor similar to > an old Trace DR, but not really seeing the usual matching Midnite BOS > components we've come to expect.  My guess is they're working on all > of that for the RE version, which isn't quite ready. > > In the meantime, one of their E panel lites could be used. You'd have > some exposed DC cable though, which seems to be the "IN" thing these > days with many of the latest LiPO4 batteries.......:)  Apparently, one > man's code compliance is another man's unnecessary hangup........Also > don't wire the neutral through the switched neutral relay in the > inverter. > > Personally, I'd just wait for the RE version and the accompanying BOS > to come out.  Maybe a Victron in the meantime? Used Magnum on Flea > Bay?  The pickin's are slim for us poor off grid installers these days.... > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > > On 10/11/2025 9:08 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Is the breaker box you mention anywhere on MidNite’s website ? >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent from Jeremy's iPhone. >> >>> On Oct 10, 2025, at 6:49 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> The Little Rosie has a nice breaker box with plenty of room and >>> options. But, the sheet metal is running behind from the US based >>> manufacturer. >>> Hopefully it will be available soon. >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 9, 2025 at 12:53 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Great, thank you Kent. I didn't realize the AC and DC terminals >>> needed to be on top, I should have read the manual before >>> asking. I can now see how the access door would be blocked if >>> there were also a charge controller mounted on the door. I >>> thought the Plus models were wider than the Lite but it appears >>> my assumption was wrong. Seems it could still work if the >>> controller were mounted off on the side of the chassis but for >>> now I'll try to come up with a better plan. Lots of mice around >>> here so I can see how your point of dropping "things" into the >>> top ventilation slots could really be an issue. >>> >>> Assuming your generator is large enough are you finding that the >>> 60 amp DC charger is working on a similar ratio as the VFX's 45 >>> amp charger? >>> >>> I appreciate your feedback! >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 8, 2025 at 5:53 PM Kent via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Nick, >>> >>> I recently looked into installing a Little Rosie on the door >>> of an >>> E-panel lite and decided against it. Just not enough room to >>> get the >>> battery cables connected. I ended up with the Little Rosie >>> mounted >>> vertically beside an E-panel lite. To tell you the truth I >>> wasn't happy >>> with the vertical installation of the little Rosie. Per the >>> installation >>> manual you are only allowed to mount it vertically in one >>> orientation >>> and that leaves the top of the Little Rosie at risk of >>> dropping things >>> into it through the ventilation slots. >>> >>> Kent Osterberg >>> Blue Mountain Solar >>> >>> >>> On 10/8/2025 4:18 PM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> > Greetings Wrenches, >>> > >>> > Has anyone tried updating an Outback E-panel to >>> accommodate a Midnite >>> > Little Rosie yet? I'm still looking for ways to upgrade my >>> VFX FXR >>> > systems with 24v inverters without having to buy from the >>> new owners >>> > at Outback as well as solve battery communications and >>> seems like a >>> > Little Rosie is quite doable. I'm told I can get a blank >>> door from >>> > Midnite and appears that there are a few extra inches to >>> spare >>> > relating to the LR and E-panel length. Beyond that getting >>> the AC and >>> > DC conductors out of the LR through the E-panel door seems >>> to be the >>> > only sticking point. Possibly just modifying a 4x4 wireway >>> gutter >>> > would work. >>> > >>> > Thought perhaps one of you has already attempted this! >>> Thanks for your >>> > time, Nick >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one >>> doesn't work, try the other: >>> > >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sue at midnitesolar.com Mon Oct 13 10:13:35 2025 From: Sue at midnitesolar.com (Sue Stankevitz) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2025 14:13:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie Breaker Box In-Reply-To: <407b7300-f9b6-48ec-aef1-9cbad1d39238@coveoregon.com> References: <68969756-7371-4fed-a7a7-a4dd1ff40411@solarray.com> <407b7300-f9b6-48ec-aef1-9cbad1d39238@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: The MNLR4548RE(aka Little Rosie, Renewable Energy) is available and listed however we have not done a product launch since we are waiting on the breaker boxes to arrive. The sheet metal is due in this week. Expect an announcement shortly. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DC3C2A.087EC150] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kent via RE-wrenches Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2025 12:54 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Kent Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie Breaker Box Ray, The mobile version of the Little Rosie is listed to UL489 and UL1741 so it can be used in residential applications as well as mobile applications. The neutral bond switching makes particular sense for using the Little Rosie with a portable generator, which is appropriate for a small inverter. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/11/2025 12:12 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: Maybe I'm missing something, but I just skimmed through the manual, and it appears the Little RosieM is meant for mobile applications. It mentions an RE version for off grid, but I can't find that anywhere. The manual just discusses class T fuses, makes no mention of breakers. It looks like a cool inverter with a form factor similar to an old Trace DR, but not really seeing the usual matching Midnite BOS components we've come to expect. My guess is they're working on all of that for the RE version, which isn't quite ready. In the meantime, one of their E panel lites could be used. You'd have some exposed DC cable though, which seems to be the "IN" thing these days with many of the latest LiPO4 batteries.......:) Apparently, one man's code compliance is another man's unnecessary hangup........Also don't wire the neutral through the switched neutral relay in the inverter. Personally, I'd just wait for the RE version and the accompanying BOS to come out. Maybe a Victron in the meantime? Used Magnum on Flea Bay? The pickin's are slim for us poor off grid installers these days.... Ray Walters Remote Solar On 10/11/2025 9:08 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: Is the breaker box you mention anywhere on MidNite’s website ? Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent from Jeremy's iPhone. On Oct 10, 2025, at 6:49 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote:  The Little Rosie has a nice breaker box with plenty of room and options. But, the sheet metal is running behind from the US based manufacturer. Hopefully it will be available soon. On Thu, Oct 9, 2025 at 12:53 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > wrote: Great, thank you Kent. I didn't realize the AC and DC terminals needed to be on top, I should have read the manual before asking. I can now see how the access door would be blocked if there were also a charge controller mounted on the door. I thought the Plus models were wider than the Lite but it appears my assumption was wrong. Seems it could still work if the controller were mounted off on the side of the chassis but for now I'll try to come up with a better plan. Lots of mice around here so I can see how your point of dropping "things" into the top ventilation slots could really be an issue. Assuming your generator is large enough are you finding that the 60 amp DC charger is working on a similar ratio as the VFX's 45 amp charger? I appreciate your feedback! Nick On Wed, Oct 8, 2025 at 5:53 PM Kent via RE-wrenches > wrote: Nick, I recently looked into installing a Little Rosie on the door of an E-panel lite and decided against it. Just not enough room to get the battery cables connected. I ended up with the Little Rosie mounted vertically beside an E-panel lite. To tell you the truth I wasn't happy with the vertical installation of the little Rosie. Per the installation manual you are only allowed to mount it vertically in one orientation and that leaves the top of the Little Rosie at risk of dropping things into it through the ventilation slots. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/8/2025 4:18 PM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: > Greetings Wrenches, > > Has anyone tried updating an Outback E-panel to accommodate a Midnite > Little Rosie yet? I'm still looking for ways to upgrade my VFX FXR > systems with 24v inverters without having to buy from the new owners > at Outback as well as solve battery communications and seems like a > Little Rosie is quite doable. I'm told I can get a blank door from > Midnite and appears that there are a few extra inches to spare > relating to the LR and E-panel length. Beyond that getting the AC and > DC conductors out of the LR through the E-panel door seems to be the > only sticking point. Possibly just modifying a 4x4 wireway gutter > would work. > > Thought perhaps one of you has already attempted this! Thanks for your > time, Nick > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Oct 14 01:40:26 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2025 22:40:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bypass Musings Message-ID: Friends: For many years I had committed to the Outback product line. The decline of Outback forced me to branch out. I just completed my first install of Fortress Envy inverters. Not long ago I installed a Sol-Ark 12K in my shop. Both experiences were mostly positive. What is interesting is the Envy and Soul-ark inverters do not come with BOS equipment. Now, if you want a PV disconnect, you need to add one manufactured by a third party. This can be accomplished with a 600 volt safety switch. If you want AC disconnecting means or distribution, you need to provide outboard equipment. This is easily provided with off-the-shelf circuit breaker panels. Since my second Radian install I have avoided putting AC breakers in the GSLC because wiring them was beyond tedious. Instead I ran my AC leads right through the GSLC and straight to one of two breaker panels: A generator-fed panel and in inverter-fed panel. Therefore I am not inconvenienced by lack of AC BOS with the new generation inverters. There is one other function that is missing with the lack of BOS cabinets: Bypass switching. I think it is imperative that bypass capabilities be provided. Inverters can fail and occasionally need service and a bypass makes these scenarios much easier to handle. As a matter of policy I will not support a batter-inverter client if they do not have a bypass. The Fortress and Sol-Ark manuals recommend use of an outboard double throw switch for bypass. These are expensive and bulky. Over the years I have developed circuit breaker interlocks that can be fitted in a standard breaker panel and take care of the bypassing function cheaply and efficiently. For a long time I have been meaning to write an article on the subject of transfer switches and bypass options. I finally got around to it and it can be found here . I hope my efforts writing this might provide some insight on the subject. I think I have fine-tuned my interlock design to a final iteration, as described in the article. If any of you are interested in trying out my Universal Bypass Interlock I am willing to send one for you to try at no cost. Contact me off list if you are interested. Sincerely, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Oct 14 09:19:19 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 09:19:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bypass Musings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, Thanks for sharing. I like your interlocking system, especially for when you need to run a load panel that is >100A. Have you ever had an inspector give you a hard time about making your own interlock, rather than using something listed? For 100A load panels or less, I have found something like the GE TC10323R to be well enough priced. Most hybrid inverters have load breakers, so I'll just bug those together in the gutter if there is more than one inverter. However, as you mentioned, the 200A versions of these double throw transfer switches are quite pricey. Cheers, Dave On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 1:55 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > For many years I had committed to the Outback product line. The decline > of Outback forced me to branch out. > > > > I just completed my first install of Fortress Envy inverters. Not long > ago I installed a Sol-Ark 12K in my shop. Both experiences were mostly > positive. > > > > What is interesting is the Envy and Soul-ark inverters do not come with > BOS equipment. > > > > Now, if you want a PV disconnect, you need to add one manufactured by a > third party. This can be accomplished with a 600 volt safety switch. > > > > If you want AC disconnecting means or distribution, you need to provide > outboard equipment. This is easily provided with off-the-shelf circuit > breaker panels. > > > > Since my second Radian install I have avoided putting AC breakers in the > GSLC because wiring them was beyond tedious. Instead I ran my AC leads > right through the GSLC and straight to one of two breaker panels: A > generator-fed panel and in inverter-fed panel. Therefore I am not > inconvenienced by lack of AC BOS with the new generation inverters. > > > > There is one other function that is missing with the lack of BOS > cabinets: Bypass switching. I think it is imperative that bypass > capabilities be provided. Inverters can fail and occasionally need service > and a bypass makes these scenarios much easier to handle. As a matter of > policy I will not support a batter-inverter client if they do not have a > bypass. > > > > The Fortress and Sol-Ark manuals recommend use of an outboard double throw > switch for bypass. These are expensive and bulky. > > > > Over the years I have developed circuit breaker interlocks that can be > fitted in a standard breaker panel and take care of the bypassing function > cheaply and efficiently. > > > > For a long time I have been meaning to write an article on the subject of > transfer switches and bypass options. I finally got around to it and it > can be found here > . > I hope my efforts writing this might provide some insight on the subject. > > > > I think I have fine-tuned my interlock design to a final iteration, as > described in the article. If any of you are interested in trying out my > Universal Bypass Interlock I am willing to send one for you to try at no > cost. Contact me off list if you are interested. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 09:27:32 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 06:27:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bypass Musings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very cool. We typically use Siemens panels with the "back to back" style interlock for single inverters allowing up to 125A bypass in a readily available 8/16 panel. In this fashion, multiple inverter installs necessitate an AC combiner panel with the output feeding a larger transfer switch. I like your solution as it certainly has the potential to save wall space and condense the footprint into one larger panel. We commonly install two bypasses in series for all grid tied battery backup systems; one for grid bypass and the second for generator bypass. I look forward to trying your product in the future.. I still need to plan the brand switch to QO for the right scenario(which I probably need to do anyway as I have a decent collection of QO breakers collecting dust!). Nice work and a hearty salute for coming up with a creative solution to a question most of us have asked at one point or another! Sunny Regards, Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com On Mon, Oct 13, 2025, 10:54 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > For many years I had committed to the Outback product line. The decline > of Outback forced me to branch out. > > > > I just completed my first install of Fortress Envy inverters. Not long > ago I installed a Sol-Ark 12K in my shop. Both experiences were mostly > positive. > > > > What is interesting is the Envy and Soul-ark inverters do not come with > BOS equipment. > > > > Now, if you want a PV disconnect, you need to add one manufactured by a > third party. This can be accomplished with a 600 volt safety switch. > > > > If you want AC disconnecting means or distribution, you need to provide > outboard equipment. This is easily provided with off-the-shelf circuit > breaker panels. > > > > Since my second Radian install I have avoided putting AC breakers in the > GSLC because wiring them was beyond tedious. Instead I ran my AC leads > right through the GSLC and straight to one of two breaker panels: A > generator-fed panel and in inverter-fed panel. Therefore I am not > inconvenienced by lack of AC BOS with the new generation inverters. > > > > There is one other function that is missing with the lack of BOS > cabinets: Bypass switching. I think it is imperative that bypass > capabilities be provided. Inverters can fail and occasionally need service > and a bypass makes these scenarios much easier to handle. As a matter of > policy I will not support a batter-inverter client if they do not have a > bypass. > > > > The Fortress and Sol-Ark manuals recommend use of an outboard double throw > switch for bypass. These are expensive and bulky. > > > > Over the years I have developed circuit breaker interlocks that can be > fitted in a standard breaker panel and take care of the bypassing function > cheaply and efficiently. > > > > For a long time I have been meaning to write an article on the subject of > transfer switches and bypass options. I finally got around to it and it > can be found here > . > I hope my efforts writing this might provide some insight on the subject. > > > > I think I have fine-tuned my interlock design to a final iteration, as > described in the article. If any of you are interested in trying out my > Universal Bypass Interlock I am willing to send one for you to try at no > cost. Contact me off list if you are interested. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 13:59:42 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 10:59:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Help understanding 690.12/Ul 3741 and Ironridge Message-ID: Wrenches, I do not do a lot of rooftop array work and am having trouble understanding something related to 690.12 and UL 3741. I have a potential client who is building a new permitted home and has plans approved for a rooftop array and Sol-Ark/Discover AES battery back up. He has asked me to quote the install and after looking at his plans, I noticed an absence of MLPE's. I brought this to his attention and he sent me XR FLUSH MOUNT UL 3741 PV HAZARD CONTROL INSTALLATION ADDENDUM. His interpretation is that Ironridge's racking system negates the need for MLPE's, or that the racking is an alternative to using MLPE's. I'm just not seeing it. Am I missing something or? Thanks, Michael -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Oct 14 14:27:29 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 11:27:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bypass Musings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave: I have never been questioned about one of these interlocks by an inspector. I am prepared for it: · I can show a similar, factory built, approved interlock. · I can remove the interlock and demonstrate that even if the interlock falls off, turning on all circuit breakers simply makes the inverter system shut down immediately. There is no risk to life or property. If the installation will be inspected I polish up the interlock a bit more than usual and I may paint it. The bright cold galv. gives them a nice look. Or I have a bristle disc that gives a nice swirl finish. I added a close up to the article just now with the swirl. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, October 14, 2025 6:19 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Dave Tedeyan *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Bypass Musings Hi William, Thanks for sharing. I like your interlocking system, especially for when you need to run a load panel that is >100A. Have you ever had an inspector give you a hard time about making your own interlock, rather than using something listed? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Tue Oct 14 15:04:48 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 12:04:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Help understanding 690.12/Ul 3741 and Ironridge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think for 3741 without RSD devices, the inverter would have to be mounted within 1 ft of the array. On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 11:01 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I do not do a lot of rooftop array work and am having trouble > understanding something related to 690.12 and UL 3741. I have a potential > client who is building a new permitted home and has plans approved for a > rooftop array and Sol-Ark/Discover AES battery back up. He has asked me to > quote the install and after looking at his plans, I noticed an absence of > MLPE's. I brought this to his attention and he sent me XR FLUSH MOUNT UL > 3741 PV HAZARD CONTROL INSTALLATION ADDENDUM. His interpretation is that > Ironridge's racking system negates the need for MLPE's, or that the racking > is an alternative to using MLPE's. I'm just not seeing it. Am I missing > something or? > > Thanks, > Michael > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 15:15:18 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 13:15:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Help understanding 690.12/Ul 3741 and Ironridge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 16:15:07 2025 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 13:15:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Help understanding 690.12/Ul 3741 and Ironridge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, 3741 requires a combination of devices used as a system, so if you look at that Ironridge doc, it appears their 3741 listing is effective only when using Tesla (with MCIs) or Solis (with Midnite MNSSR) plus the modules listed at the end. So... no SolArk. On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 12:16 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I got curious > > > As I understand it there are 2 variations. > 1 is with the inverter within 1-3’ of the array and that includes having > listed by IR panels and inverters. Which is usually commercial jobs. > > 2 is the inverter is further than 1-3’ from the array. It’s almost the > same with only certain listed panels and inverters and remote shut down > equipment > > Here is the link that talks about the second version. > > > https://files.ironridge.com/pitched-roof-mounting/resources/brochures/IronRidge_XR_Flush_Mount_UL3741_Installation_Addendum.pdf > > > > > On Oct 14, 2025, at 1:06 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I think for 3741 without RSD devices, the inverter would have to be > mounted within 1 ft of the array. > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 11:01 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> >> Wrenches, >> >> I do not do a lot of rooftop array work and am having trouble >> understanding something related to 690.12 and UL 3741. I have a potential >> client who is building a new permitted home and has plans approved for a >> rooftop array and Sol-Ark/Discover AES battery back up. He has asked me to >> quote the install and after looking at his plans, I noticed an absence of >> MLPE's. I brought this to his attention and he sent me XR FLUSH MOUNT UL >> 3741 PV HAZARD CONTROL INSTALLATION ADDENDUM. His interpretation is that >> Ironridge's racking system negates the need for MLPE's, or that the racking >> is an alternative to using MLPE's. I'm just not seeing it. Am I missing >> something or? >> >> Thanks, >> Michael >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> Morningstar Electric Inc >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> CSLB 1116835 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Tue Oct 14 16:46:56 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 13:46:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Help understanding 690.12/Ul 3741 and Ironridge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My understanding of UL3741 is that you need to have the racking system, the shutoff units (often string level shutdown units), and the inverter all listed to work with each other. So far, I have been unable to find any combination that does what I need (specifically, any battery based inverters other than Tesla that are listed with shutdown units and racking), so I've still been using module level shutdown. ul3741.com has lists of what is cross listed with what else. Zeke -- Zeke Yewdall PV Engineer NABCEP #031508-89 zeke at darkforestsolar.com 303-523-3592 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Tue Oct 14 18:18:45 2025 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 16:18:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is it OK to add EG4LL-S alongside Fortress e-Vault Classic? Message-ID: Hi, Wrenchies~ I sold one E-Vault Classic cabinet to an off-gridder in 2021 (18.5 kWh rated). He set it up open loop even though he's got Schneider XW Pro. Now he'd like more storage and asked for a quote on one EG4LL-S cabinet, fully loaded (30.7 kWh). Surely he would have to stay open loop if these two brands are combined. Both brands have 16 cells in series = 51.2 nominal volts. However, EG4 documentation calls for 56.2 volts Bulk & Fortress calls for 54.4 volts Bulk. War stories or suggestions welcomed; thanks in advance. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Oct 14 19:53:32 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 16:53:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is it OK to add EG4LL-S alongside Fortress e-Vault Classic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Run them seperate. Client has to be willing and smart enough to make this work or you will be really exposed. I would not do this myself but I could if I had to. He and you will need to be good at Insight to get the BMS data from 2 very different banks of very different age. Good Luck ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-10-14 3:18 pm, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi, Wrenchies~ I sold one E-Vault Classic cabinet to an off-gridder in > 2021 (18.5 kWh rated). He set it up open loop even though he's got > Schneider XW Pro. Now he'd like more storage and asked for a quote on > one EG4LL-S cabinet, fully loaded (30.7 kWh). > > Surely he would have to stay open loop if these two brands are > combined. Both brands have 16 cells in series = 51.2 nominal volts. > However, EG4 documentation calls for 56.2 volts Bulk & Fortress calls > for 54.4 volts Bulk. > > War stories or suggestions welcomed; thanks in advance. The Wrench List > is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com [1] > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.abrahamsolar.com [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Oct 14 20:49:49 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 18:49:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is it OK to add EG4LL-S alongside Fortress e-Vault Classic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mick, No matter how much you want to help this guy, you already know the answer to this in your gut.   Maybe I'm being overly cautious here, but this seems to be the same as what we would tell folks trying to combine different sizes and ages of FLA battery: Don't do it.  He should sell the E vault to a neighbor, and run the new cab, or (just like with FLA) put in a battery selector switch, and run the system on one or the other, and change settings each time (ugh).  Honestly I just don't see it working out very well, and I could see one battery powering into a problem in the other battery and Really having bad things happen. I'd give it a 10% chance it will work just fine, a 30% chance it will work OK, but need periodic charging on one battery or the other to sync them, a 40% chance it will lead to premature failure of one or both batteries, and a 20% that you let the smoke out of one or the other BMS units and/ or do cell damage. (just my educated guess, but check with me in 5 years and see how the dice roll worked out) I'm sure there's some DIY folks that have done all sorts of wild mixing, but that still doesn't mean it's a good idea. War stories?  I've already had so much trouble with various LiPO4, that I definitely don't feel like being adventurous.  I've had a Simpliphi bank smoke all the control boards, Home grid system shut down intermittently and need to be dark started every couple of months, Fortress evault shut down at 100% SOC because of a firmware issue and leave a freezer full of elk rotting.....and I definitely am not trying any lunatic fringe stuff. Sincerely; Ray Walters Remote Solar On 10/14/2025 4:18 PM, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi, Wrenchies~ I sold one E-Vault Classic cabinet to an off-gridder in > 2021 (18.5 kWh rated). He set it up open loop even though he's got > Schneider XW Pro. Now he'd like more storage and asked for a quote on > one EG4LL-S cabinet, fully loaded (30.7 kWh). > > Surely he would have to stay open loop if these two brands are > combined. Both brands have 16 cells in series = 51.2 nominal volts. > However, EG4 documentation calls for 56.2 volts Bulk & Fortress calls > for 54.4 volts Bulk. > > War stories or suggestions welcomed; thanks in advance. The Wrench > List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Oct 15 10:15:32 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 10:15:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bypass Musings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3313087eb88db5c51fc3d52e8056b63e@redwoodalliance.org> Hi William, That looks excellent. I recently purchased a 3rd party interlock for an Eaton / Cutler Hammer box, and it does not work securely. Both breakers could be switched on at the same time due to the looseness of the fit. I would like to try one of yours, and be happy to pay you for it. Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-10-14 01:40, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > Friends: > > For many years I had committed to the Outback product line. The > decline of Outback forced me to branch out. > > I just completed my first install of Fortress Envy inverters. Not long > ago I installed a Sol-Ark 12K in my shop. Both experiences were mostly > positive. > > What is interesting is the Envy and Soul-ark inverters do not come with > BOS equipment. > > Now, if you want a PV disconnect, you need to add one manufactured by a > third party. This can be accomplished with a 600 volt safety switch. > > If you want AC disconnecting means or distribution, you need to provide > outboard equipment. This is easily provided with off-the-shelf circuit > breaker panels. > > Since my second Radian install I have avoided putting AC breakers in > the GSLC because wiring them was beyond tedious. Instead I ran my AC > leads right through the GSLC and straight to one of two breaker panels: > A generator-fed panel and in inverter-fed panel. Therefore I am not > inconvenienced by lack of AC BOS with the new generation inverters. > > There is one other function that is missing with the lack of BOS > cabinets: Bypass switching. I think it is imperative that bypass > capabilities be provided. Inverters can fail and occasionally need > service and a bypass makes these scenarios much easier to handle. As a > matter of policy I will not support a batter-inverter client if they do > not have a bypass. > > The Fortress and Sol-Ark manuals recommend use of an outboard double > throw switch for bypass. These are expensive and bulky. > > Over the years I have developed circuit breaker interlocks that can be > fitted in a standard breaker panel and take care of the bypassing > function cheaply and efficiently. > > For a long time I have been meaning to write an article on the subject > of transfer switches and bypass options. I finally got around to it > and it can be found here [1]. I hope my efforts writing this might > provide some insight on the subject. > > I think I have fine-tuned my interlock design to a final iteration, as > described in the article. If any of you are interested in trying out > my Universal Bypass Interlock I am willing to send one for you to try > at no cost. Contact me off list if you are interested. > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [2] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/Technical_Procedures/Interlock/Interlock.html [2] http://www.millersolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Oct 15 11:24:58 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:24:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Bypass Musings Message-ID: Hi All, Now that some inverters have "smart" load capabilities, I am musing on whether to put in a separate bypass for each smart load. I am thinking specifically about the Midnite AIO inverter, where the Smart loads are powered directly from the inverter, rather than just providing a relay to cut power (like in the Avalon SEP, if anyone has used those). The Midnite AIO also has provisions to run other backed up loads directly from the inverter as well. But if there was a system failure, and you have a bypass switch installed, this will only power the loads in the backed up loads panel from the grid, but not the specific loads that originate from the inverter. Are people installing bypasses for every individual load that originates in the inverter? I was just looking at William's interlock system, but I don't think that you can utilize that kind of system to have some smart loads in there as well. It seems like you can utilize the panel he labels "inverter feed" on his one line diagram to power other backed up loads, but the would not work for a smart load. Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 11:44:49 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 08:44:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Bypass Musings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have considered this as well. The perfect solution in my view would be a bypass bracket for a 4 space siemens 125A main lug panel(the kind with the L2 lug in between the breakers). It could then be a cost effective and space saving solution that could allow switching between two 30a breakers for a single 240v load. On Wed, Oct 15, 2025, 8:25 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > Now that some inverters have "smart" load capabilities, I am musing on > whether to put in a separate bypass for each smart load. I am thinking > specifically about the Midnite AIO inverter, where the Smart loads are > powered directly from the inverter, rather than just providing a relay to > cut power (like in the Avalon SEP, if anyone has used those). The Midnite > AIO also has provisions to run other backed up loads directly from the > inverter as well. > > But if there was a system failure, and you have a bypass switch installed, > this will only power the loads in the backed up loads panel from the grid, > but not the specific loads that originate from the inverter. Are people > installing bypasses for every individual load that originates in the > inverter? I was just looking at William's interlock system, but I don't > think that you can utilize that kind of system to have some smart loads in > there as well. It seems like you can utilize the panel he labels "inverter > feed" on his one line diagram to power other backed up loads, but the would > not work for a smart load. > > Cheers, > Dave > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. > > > | Ithaca, > NY 14850 > > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 15 14:48:39 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 14:48:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Bypass Musings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think there’s a real point of diminishing returns here. Even on whole-home backup systems, I usually skip a dedicated bypass as long as there’s a reasonable way to restore power in a true emergency. For *off-grid*, it’s definitely convenient to send generator power to the loads during inverter service. But if the generator feed is spliced to feed both the inverter and one side of a bypass switch, you still have to disconnect the inverter feed to make it safe for service, so the benefit can be marginal. The real benefit here is for clients to be able to self-service to restore power during a component failure. For *on-grid* systems, I recently dealt with an Enphase System Controller failure. There was a separate main disconnect ahead of it (no main breaker in the controller), and the load lugs fed the whole house. The controller failed with the microgrid interconnect contactor stuck open, forcing the client off-grid even though utility power was available. Bypassing it took nothing more than a pair of 3/0 Polaris taps and about ten minutes to splice the line to the load. Would a 200 A bypass switch have been worth it? Not really. The quick splice worked fine, and once Enphase sent a field tech to replace the MID, I just reversed it – no big deal. Back to off-grid, or on-grid for that matter... This is where a well-planned wiring trough shines. You can make quick splices to bypass smart loads or even whole-house feeders when needed. On a recent grid-tied multi-Midnite AIO installation, I made sure the AC in and AC out power distribution blocks were close enough together that I could completely bypass the inverters with some quick Polaris tap splices. Or, I could quickly remove and cap off a single inverter from the distribution blocks. That's even better than a bypass because you can selectively bypass a single inverter for service. Most bypass switches will live their entire lives never being used, so I tend to design for practical flexibility rather than theoretical perfection. There are definitely situations where a bypass switch is mandatory, in my opinion, but when there are options and the risk is low, I often save the customer a few bucks after having a conversation with them about convenience, cost, reliability/resilience, and serviceability. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 11:26 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > Now that some inverters have "smart" load capabilities, I am musing on > whether to put in a separate bypass for each smart load. I am thinking > specifically about the Midnite AIO inverter, where the Smart loads are > powered directly from the inverter, rather than just providing a relay to > cut power (like in the Avalon SEP, if anyone has used those). The Midnite > AIO also has provisions to run other backed up loads directly from the > inverter as well. > > But if there was a system failure, and you have a bypass switch installed, > this will only power the loads in the backed up loads panel from the grid, > but not the specific loads that originate from the inverter. Are people > installing bypasses for every individual load that originates in the > inverter? I was just looking at William's interlock system, but I don't > think that you can utilize that kind of system to have some smart loads in > there as well. It seems like you can utilize the panel he labels "inverter > feed" on his one line diagram to power other backed up loads, but the would > not work for a smart load. > > Cheers, > Dave > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Wed Oct 15 16:21:31 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 13:21:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is it OK to add EG4LL-S alongside Fortress e-Vault Classic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FWIW, I have some evault classics running in parallel with a hacked ReLion/Iron Edison battery (it had a BMS failure and the BMS was replaced with a JKBMS). I have victron smarthshunts on each battery, connected to a cerbo, so I can track how all the different batteries are sharing. So far, one of the evaults tracks along very well with the ReLion -- the Evault contributing a tad more current (it's a 360AH vs the 300A ReLion). The other evault has something wrong (haven't gotten out to the site yet with the fortress tool to talk to its BMS, but it's acting like a bad cell perhaps -- only showing about half the capacity as the good one). But the good one and the ReLion track very well with each other every day. It's all open loop with some SolArk 12k inverters. It gets up to 55.6 every day for a few minutes, then floats at 54.3 or so for the rest of the day. Been operating like this for two months or so now. So.... while I'm sure that it's not recommended practice, it does seem to work to parallel two different 16 cell batteries... Zeke -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Oct 15 16:42:08 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 16:42:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Bypass Musings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, While I agree that it is often fairly simple to bypass an inverter, you have to be there to do it. I am currently dealing with a Midnite system that has needed multiple firmware upgrades, and for some reason recently would not charge the batteries. No one noticed until they completely discharged, and the backed up loads turned off. We have been able to get them charging again, but it has been really nice to tell the customer to just throw the transfer switch and let the loads run off the grid while this gets sorted out. Tech support has been very helpful, and we've got the batteries charging again, and I am really glad I did not have to make an emergency trip to the site to temporarily wire the AC in to the AC out. AC coupled systems with an MID seem to be a little more resilient in this fashion though. For that Enphase customer to lose power to the loads, both the System Controller AND the batteries would have to fail at the same time. I recently ran into an Avalon SEP that failed. We were able to get it to still pass through grid power and even get both the AC and DC coupled solar working immediately. Then at my leisure I was able to go to the site to troubleshoot (and eventually replace) the SEP. They just did not have backup power during that time, but at least they had power to the house. Cheers, Dave On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 2:50 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I think there’s a real point of diminishing returns here. Even on > whole-home backup systems, I usually skip a dedicated bypass as long as > there’s a reasonable way to restore power in a true emergency. > > For *off-grid*, it’s definitely convenient to send generator power to the > loads during inverter service. But if the generator feed is spliced to feed > both the inverter and one side of a bypass switch, you still have to > disconnect the inverter feed to make it safe for service, so the benefit > can be marginal. The real benefit here is for clients to be able to > self-service to restore power during a component failure. > > For *on-grid* systems, I recently dealt with an Enphase System Controller > failure. There was a separate main disconnect ahead of it (no main breaker > in the controller), and the load lugs fed the whole house. The controller > failed with the microgrid interconnect contactor stuck open, forcing the > client off-grid even though utility power was available. > > Bypassing it took nothing more than a pair of 3/0 Polaris taps and about > ten minutes to splice the line to the load. Would a 200 A bypass switch > have been worth it? Not really. The quick splice worked fine, and once > Enphase sent a field tech to replace the MID, I just reversed it – no big > deal. > > Back to off-grid, or on-grid for that matter... This is where a > well-planned wiring trough shines. You can make quick splices to bypass > smart loads or even whole-house feeders when needed. On a recent grid-tied > multi-Midnite AIO installation, I made sure the AC in and AC out power > distribution blocks were close enough together that I could completely > bypass the inverters with some quick Polaris tap splices. Or, I could > quickly remove and cap off a single inverter from the distribution blocks. > That's even better than a bypass because you can selectively bypass a > single inverter for service. > > Most bypass switches will live their entire lives never being used, so I > tend to design for practical flexibility rather than theoretical > perfection. There are definitely situations where a bypass switch is > mandatory, in my opinion, but when there are options and the risk is low, I > often save the customer a few bucks after having a conversation with them > about convenience, cost, reliability/resilience, and serviceability. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 11:26 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Now that some inverters have "smart" load capabilities, I am musing on >> whether to put in a separate bypass for each smart load. I am thinking >> specifically about the Midnite AIO inverter, where the Smart loads are >> powered directly from the inverter, rather than just providing a relay to >> cut power (like in the Avalon SEP, if anyone has used those). The Midnite >> AIO also has provisions to run other backed up loads directly from the >> inverter as well. >> >> But if there was a system failure, and you have a bypass switch >> installed, this will only power the loads in the backed up loads panel from >> the grid, but not the specific loads that originate from the inverter. Are >> people installing bypasses for every individual load that originates in the >> inverter? I was just looking at William's interlock system, but I don't >> think that you can utilize that kind of system to have some smart loads in >> there as well. It seems like you can utilize the panel he labels "inverter >> feed" on his one line diagram to power other backed up loads, but the would >> not work for a smart load. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> -- >> >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 15 16:52:33 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 16:52:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Bypass Musings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For sure, if it is a mission-critical situation where service can't be provided in a timely fashion, the customer should be able to bypass things. We do that for clients where we have to take a boat to provide service, for example. In the case of an Enphase whole-home battery backup, most around here are designed for "whole home," but with an adjusted lifestyle. So when the MID fails, living a normal lifestyle often means depleting the batteries, so it requires a timely response to avoid a lifestyle change. For example, shutting down a swimming pool is usually necessary, and possibly water heating. In some cases, that also means shutting down one of two central air conditioners. On the other hand, I had a client whose MID froze open, and they didn't realize it for almost a month. They ran off-grid on solar and batteries without a care in the world. Unfortunately, the fix was a real hassle because the Enphase System Controller contained the service disconnect, making service difficult and temporary bypass impossible. For this reason, I have stopped using MIDs (Enphase System Controller or Tesla Gateway 3) as the service equipment. I don't think that is in the customer's best interest, especially in states where you have to involve the utility company and the building department to pull a meter for service. Adding a 200A service disconnect ahead of the MID is pretty low cost. It will also make things easier in 15-25 years when the MID gets replaced with the latest and greatest tech. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 4:42 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Jason, > > While I agree that it is often fairly simple to bypass an inverter, you > have to be there to do it. I am currently dealing with a Midnite system > that has needed multiple firmware upgrades, and for some reason recently > would not charge the batteries. No one noticed until they completely > discharged, and the backed up loads turned off. We have been able to get > them charging again, but it has been really nice to tell the customer to > just throw the transfer switch and let the loads run off the grid while > this gets sorted out. Tech support has been very helpful, and we've got the > batteries charging again, and I am really glad I did not have to make an > emergency trip to the site to temporarily wire the AC in to the AC out. > > AC coupled systems with an MID seem to be a little more resilient in this > fashion though. For that Enphase customer to lose power to the loads, both > the System Controller AND the batteries would have to fail at the same > time. I recently ran into an Avalon SEP that failed. We were able to get it > to still pass through grid power and even get both the AC and DC coupled > solar working immediately. Then at my leisure I was able to go to the site > to troubleshoot (and eventually replace) the SEP. They just did not have > backup power during that time, but at least they had power to the house. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 2:50 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I think there’s a real point of diminishing returns here. Even on >> whole-home backup systems, I usually skip a dedicated bypass as long as >> there’s a reasonable way to restore power in a true emergency. >> >> For *off-grid*, it’s definitely convenient to send generator power to >> the loads during inverter service. But if the generator feed is spliced to >> feed both the inverter and one side of a bypass switch, you still have to >> disconnect the inverter feed to make it safe for service, so the benefit >> can be marginal. The real benefit here is for clients to be able to >> self-service to restore power during a component failure. >> >> For *on-grid* systems, I recently dealt with an Enphase System >> Controller failure. There was a separate main disconnect ahead of it (no >> main breaker in the controller), and the load lugs fed the whole house. The >> controller failed with the microgrid interconnect contactor stuck open, >> forcing the client off-grid even though utility power was available. >> >> Bypassing it took nothing more than a pair of 3/0 Polaris taps and about >> ten minutes to splice the line to the load. Would a 200 A bypass switch >> have been worth it? Not really. The quick splice worked fine, and once >> Enphase sent a field tech to replace the MID, I just reversed it – no big >> deal. >> >> Back to off-grid, or on-grid for that matter... This is where a >> well-planned wiring trough shines. You can make quick splices to bypass >> smart loads or even whole-house feeders when needed. On a recent grid-tied >> multi-Midnite AIO installation, I made sure the AC in and AC out power >> distribution blocks were close enough together that I could completely >> bypass the inverters with some quick Polaris tap splices. Or, I could >> quickly remove and cap off a single inverter from the distribution blocks. >> That's even better than a bypass because you can selectively bypass a >> single inverter for service. >> >> Most bypass switches will live their entire lives never being used, so I >> tend to design for practical flexibility rather than theoretical >> perfection. There are definitely situations where a bypass switch is >> mandatory, in my opinion, but when there are options and the risk is low, I >> often save the customer a few bucks after having a conversation with them >> about convenience, cost, reliability/resilience, and serviceability. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 11:26 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Now that some inverters have "smart" load capabilities, I am musing on >>> whether to put in a separate bypass for each smart load. I am thinking >>> specifically about the Midnite AIO inverter, where the Smart loads are >>> powered directly from the inverter, rather than just providing a relay to >>> cut power (like in the Avalon SEP, if anyone has used those). The Midnite >>> AIO also has provisions to run other backed up loads directly from the >>> inverter as well. >>> >>> But if there was a system failure, and you have a bypass switch >>> installed, this will only power the loads in the backed up loads panel from >>> the grid, but not the specific loads that originate from the inverter. Are >>> people installing bypasses for every individual load that originates in the >>> inverter? I was just looking at William's interlock system, but I don't >>> think that you can utilize that kind of system to have some smart loads in >>> there as well. It seems like you can utilize the panel he labels "inverter >>> feed" on his one line diagram to power other backed up loads, but the would >>> not work for a smart load. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> -- >>> >>> [image: Logo] >>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>> p: he | him | his >>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 15 17:23:39 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 17:23:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Off-Grid Message-ID: I know Enphase now allows full off-grid, but I read their tech brief, and it requires a generator to be present for commissioning, I believe. Has anyone commissioned one of these systems off-grid? The reason I ask is that I have a new home build, and the utility meter won't be set until January or later. I could plausibly install the microinverters and batteries and get the system up and running to power the house during construction, prior to having a utility source. That should qualify them for the tax credit. If the off-grid mode can't be set up without a generator, I suppose it would be possible to "trick" the system by getting it commissioned with a generator on the AC input of the System Controller with the profile set to no export. That's not ideal, probably not advisable, and certainly not supported, but... as long as the generator source is clean enough to look like the grid... I reached out to Enphase to see if the generator requirement can be waived, which is the ideal scenario. I would be interested in hearing about any general experiences with Enphase in full off-grid use. I can't imagine there are that many out there yet. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Wed Oct 15 18:04:53 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 17:04:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More Bypass Musings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the Midnite AIO if it loses solar or battery it will bypass AC from the AC in as long as it does not encounter a Critical error. If it has an error then it will open the relay and you will lose power. But with any inverter I always quote in a manual bypass. it is worth every dollar. For you and the customer. Logan On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 3:43 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > > While I agree that it is often fairly simple to bypass an inverter, you > have to be there to do it. I am currently dealing with a Midnite system > that has needed multiple firmware upgrades, and for some reason recently > would not charge the batteries. No one noticed until they completely > discharged, and the backed up loads turned off. We have been able to get > them charging again, but it has been really nice to tell the customer to > just throw the transfer switch and let the loads run off the grid while > this gets sorted out. Tech support has been very helpful, and we've got the > batteries charging again, and I am really glad I did not have to make an > emergency trip to the site to temporarily wire the AC in to the AC out. > > AC coupled systems with an MID seem to be a little more resilient in this > fashion though. For that Enphase customer to lose power to the loads, both > the System Controller AND the batteries would have to fail at the same > time. I recently ran into an Avalon SEP that failed. We were able to get it > to still pass through grid power and even get both the AC and DC coupled > solar working immediately. Then at my leisure I was able to go to the site > to troubleshoot (and eventually replace) the SEP. They just did not have > backup power during that time, but at least they had power to the house. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 2:50 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I think there’s a real point of diminishing returns here. Even on >> whole-home backup systems, I usually skip a dedicated bypass as long as >> there’s a reasonable way to restore power in a true emergency. >> >> For *off-grid*, it’s definitely convenient to send generator power to >> the loads during inverter service. But if the generator feed is spliced to >> feed both the inverter and one side of a bypass switch, you still have to >> disconnect the inverter feed to make it safe for service, so the benefit >> can be marginal. The real benefit here is for clients to be able to >> self-service to restore power during a component failure. >> >> For *on-grid* systems, I recently dealt with an Enphase System >> Controller failure. There was a separate main disconnect ahead of it (no >> main breaker in the controller), and the load lugs fed the whole house. The >> controller failed with the microgrid interconnect contactor stuck open, >> forcing the client off-grid even though utility power was available. >> >> Bypassing it took nothing more than a pair of 3/0 Polaris taps and about >> ten minutes to splice the line to the load. Would a 200 A bypass switch >> have been worth it? Not really. The quick splice worked fine, and once >> Enphase sent a field tech to replace the MID, I just reversed it – no big >> deal. >> >> Back to off-grid, or on-grid for that matter... This is where a >> well-planned wiring trough shines. You can make quick splices to bypass >> smart loads or even whole-house feeders when needed. On a recent grid-tied >> multi-Midnite AIO installation, I made sure the AC in and AC out power >> distribution blocks were close enough together that I could completely >> bypass the inverters with some quick Polaris tap splices. Or, I could >> quickly remove and cap off a single inverter from the distribution blocks. >> That's even better than a bypass because you can selectively bypass a >> single inverter for service. >> >> Most bypass switches will live their entire lives never being used, so I >> tend to design for practical flexibility rather than theoretical >> perfection. There are definitely situations where a bypass switch is >> mandatory, in my opinion, but when there are options and the risk is low, I >> often save the customer a few bucks after having a conversation with them >> about convenience, cost, reliability/resilience, and serviceability. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 11:26 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Now that some inverters have "smart" load capabilities, I am musing on >>> whether to put in a separate bypass for each smart load. I am thinking >>> specifically about the Midnite AIO inverter, where the Smart loads are >>> powered directly from the inverter, rather than just providing a relay to >>> cut power (like in the Avalon SEP, if anyone has used those). The Midnite >>> AIO also has provisions to run other backed up loads directly from the >>> inverter as well. >>> >>> But if there was a system failure, and you have a bypass switch >>> installed, this will only power the loads in the backed up loads panel from >>> the grid, but not the specific loads that originate from the inverter. Are >>> people installing bypasses for every individual load that originates in the >>> inverter? I was just looking at William's interlock system, but I don't >>> think that you can utilize that kind of system to have some smart loads in >>> there as well. It seems like you can utilize the panel he labels "inverter >>> feed" on his one line diagram to power other backed up loads, but the would >>> not work for a smart load. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> -- >>> >>> [image: Logo] >>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>> p: he | him | his >>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 21:36:09 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 18:36:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Off-Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have the same situation with a Tesla power wall three, we are going to try to trick it with a Honda inverter generator, 7000 W. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Oct 15, 2025, at 2:27 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I know Enphase now allows full off-grid, but I read their tech brief, and it requires a generator to be present for commissioning, I believe. Has anyone commissioned one of these systems off-grid? > > The reason I ask is that I have a new home build, and the utility meter won't be set until January or later. I could plausibly install the microinverters and batteries and get the system up and running to power the house during construction, prior to having a utility source. That should qualify them for the tax credit. > > If the off-grid mode can't be set up without a generator, I suppose it would be possible to "trick" the system by getting it commissioned with a generator on the AC input of the System Controller with the profile set to no export. That's not ideal, probably not advisable, and certainly not supported, but... as long as the generator source is clean enough to look like the grid... > > I reached out to Enphase to see if the generator requirement can be waived, which is the ideal scenario. > > I would be interested in hearing about any general experiences with Enphase in full off-grid use. I can't imagine there are that many out there yet. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Oct 15 22:26:40 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 19:26:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Off-Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very cool gentlemen, please let us know how it goes. I find this very intriguing. On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 6:38 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We have the same situation with a Tesla power wall three, we are going to > try to trick it with a Honda inverter generator, 7000 W. > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Oct 15, 2025, at 2:27 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > I know Enphase now allows full off-grid, but I read their tech brief, and > it requires a generator to be present for commissioning, I believe. Has > anyone commissioned one of these systems off-grid? > > The reason I ask is that I have a new home build, and the utility meter > won't be set until January or later. I could plausibly install the > microinverters and batteries and get the system up and running to power the > house during construction, prior to having a utility source. That should > qualify them for the tax credit. > > If the off-grid mode can't be set up without a generator, I suppose it > would be possible to "trick" the system by getting it commissioned with a > generator on the AC input of the System Controller with the profile set to > no export. That's not ideal, probably not advisable, and certainly not > supported, but... as long as the generator source is clean enough to look > like the grid... > > I reached out to Enphase to see if the generator requirement can be > waived, which is the ideal scenario. > > I would be interested in hearing about any general experiences with > Enphase in full off-grid use. I can't imagine there are that many out there > yet. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 16 10:27:46 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2025 10:27:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K and HomeGrid - Comm Cable Pinout Message-ID: Does anyone know for sure what the correct pinout is on the communication cables for this pairing? Sol-Ark has multiple battery integration guide versions. Some show two wires connected to pins four and five on the inverter and seven and eight on the battery, respectively. In another version of the guide, four is connected to eight and five is connected to seven. In yet another version, a green wire is introduced. I have tried all three combinations, and none work. I can't get a straight answer out of either manufacturer, and of course they're both pointing fingers at each other regarding my battery communication issue. Sol-Ark is sending a firmware update and recommended a factory reset. That's the next step, but it doesn't answer the question about the correct pinout. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 11:39:04 2025 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2025 10:39:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone used the sodium-ion batteries yet? Message-ID: I have not. But there are companies discussing the merits. Also, has anyone tried the Jackery product for small systems? I have two customers requesting a small battery backup to reduce generator wait times and starts. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Thu Oct 16 12:58:42 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2025 11:58:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K and HomeGrid - Comm Cable Pinout In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, I have a couple working HomeGrid to Sol-Ark installs. The manual does seem to mix flavors of cable and even the cable that came with the HomeGrid install of 2024 has Ethernet Type A color code pin out. If you keep the pin out as type A, that is fine, but I made a chart with Type B wiring, attached. Also, I think you should not connect the other unnecessary wires on the Sol-Ark side, just to eliminate any issues. I also assume they are using CAN and not using RS485...  Let me know how that works for you. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Oct 16, 2025, at 9:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Does anyone know for sure what the correct pinout is on the communication cables for this pairing? Sol-Ark has multiple battery integration guide versions. > > Some show two wires connected to pins four and five on the inverter and seven and eight on the battery, respectively. In another version of the guide, four is connected to eight and five is connected to seven. In yet another version, a green wire is introduced. I have tried all three combinations, and none work. > > I can't get a straight answer out of either manufacturer, and of course they're both pointing fingers at each other regarding my battery communication issue. > > Sol-Ark is sending a firmware update and recommended a factory reset. That's the next step, but it doesn't answer the question about the correct pinout. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MacGyver HomeGrid to Sol-Ark 2025-10-01.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2326595 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Oct 16 18:02:57 2025 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2025 22:02:57 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K and HomeGrid - Comm Cable Pinout In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason I sent you an email ,off list. Maybe it’s in your junk folder. It’s regarding pin out for CAN networking cables, with MNP batteries. Regards, Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent from Jeremy's iPhone. On Oct 16, 2025, at 8:29 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:  Does anyone know for sure what the correct pinout is on the communication cables for this pairing? Sol-Ark has multiple battery integration guide versions. Some show two wires connected to pins four and five on the inverter and seven and eight on the battery, respectively. In another version of the guide, four is connected to eight and five is connected to seven. In yet another version, a green wire is introduced. I have tried all three combinations, and none work. I can't get a straight answer out of either manufacturer, and of course they're both pointing fingers at each other regarding my battery communication issue. Sol-Ark is sending a firmware update and recommended a factory reset. That's the next step, but it doesn't answer the question about the correct pinout. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 16 19:24:51 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2025 19:24:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K and HomeGrid - Comm Cable Pinout In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Maverick. This turned out to be the answer. No ground wire was needed. I found out the master inverter is faulty. I connected the cable to the slave (after unparalleling) and it worked. Sol-Ark was surprisingly very willing to send me a new MCU board without any argument. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Oct 16, 2025, 1:00 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > > I have a couple working HomeGrid to Sol-Ark installs. > > The manual does seem to mix flavors of cable and even the cable that came > with the HomeGrid install of 2024 has Ethernet Type A color code pin out. > > If you keep the pin out as type A, that is fine, but I made a chart with > Type B wiring, attached. Also, I think you should not connect the other > unnecessary wires on the Sol-Ark side, just to eliminate any issues. > > I also assume they are using CAN and not using RS485... > > > Let me know how that works for you. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* > * • Solar Commander Remote Power* > > * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection *maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > On Oct 16, 2025, at 9:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Does anyone know for sure what the correct pinout is on the communication > cables for this pairing? Sol-Ark has multiple battery integration guide > versions. > > Some show two wires connected to pins four and five on the inverter and > seven and eight on the battery, respectively. In another version of the > guide, four is connected to eight and five is connected to seven. In yet > another version, a green wire is introduced. I have tried all three > combinations, and none work. > > I can't get a straight answer out of either manufacturer, and of course > they're both pointing fingers at each other regarding my battery > communication issue. > > Sol-Ark is sending a firmware update and recommended a factory reset. > That's the next step, but it doesn't answer the question about the correct > pinout. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Thu Oct 16 20:11:37 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2025 19:11:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K and HomeGrid - Comm Cable Pinout In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0CEF7E1B-8768-4970-8546-3630241DFE20@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 13:49:36 2025 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2025 13:49:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone used the sodium-ion batteries yet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was extremely interested in the progress Natron Energy was making with this type of battery. Suddenly, they are out of business. I'd like to know what happened. I wonder if the current administration cut funding or if that's just my opinions talking.... Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 Island Energy Storage (207) 479-2252 On Thu, Oct 16, 2025 at 11:40 AM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have not. But there are companies discussing the merits. Also, has > anyone tried the Jackery product for small systems? I have two customers > requesting a small battery backup to reduce generator wait times and > starts. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 21:27:27 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2025 19:27:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone used the sodium-ion batteries yet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B18360A-61B7-4150-971C-0107542E7C94@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 00:29:13 2025 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2025 22:29:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone used the sodium-ion batteries yet? In-Reply-To: <4B18360A-61B7-4150-971C-0107542E7C94@gmail.com> References: <4B18360A-61B7-4150-971C-0107542E7C94@gmail.com> Message-ID: Lab vs real life. Can I order them from CED Greentech now? No.Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Fri, Oct 17, 2025 at 7:31 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I think this is a good video to show that there won’t be any large scale > us battery companies. Plenty of others out there discussing what CATL and > BYD are talking about. > Tesla just bought a LFP whole complete manufacturing line from > China, with a supply chain of materials. > > The good news is sodium tech is just around the corner. > > > https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-MkMgwf2lAs&pp=ugUHEgVlbi1HQtIHCQkeAaO1ajebQw%3D%3D > > On Oct 17, 2025, at 11:51 AM, Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I was extremely interested in the progress Natron Energy was making with > this type of battery. Suddenly, they are out of business. I'd like to know > what happened. I wonder if the current administration cut funding or if > that's just my opinions talking.... > > Daryl DeJoy > NABCEP Certified PVIP since 2006 > Island Energy Storage > (207) 479-2252 > > On Thu, Oct 16, 2025 at 11:40 AM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I have not. But there are companies discussing the merits. Also, has >> anyone tried the Jackery product for small systems? I have two customers >> requesting a small battery backup to reduce generator wait times and >> starts. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Sun Oct 19 13:17:17 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2025 10:17:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sodium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought that Backwoods was selling a 48 volt Sodium Ion battery, but now I only see the 12 volt 100AH option. They also discontinued their LTO options, due to poor adoption of them. Despite everyone saying they wanted a coldweather lithium battery, very few actually wanted to buy them at the price they were. I see so many people trying to use LFP in unheated situations and running into trouble though.... If you want cells, there are quite a few Sodium Ion cells available on Aliexpress now. A lot more than there was a year ago when I ordered some 10AH cylindrical to make a test battery from them. And a fair number of 12 volt options. But if you want complete 48 volt batteries, I'm not seeing any sources for those yet. Currently price of the larger prismatic sodium ion cells seems similar range to the LFP cells, which is better than it was a year ago. -- Zeke Yewdall PV Engineer NABCEP #031508-89 zeke at darkforestsolar.com 303-523-3592 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Mon Oct 20 07:26:57 2025 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2025 07:26:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sodium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Found these available. https://jmbatteries.com/products/wholesale-5kwh-all-in-one-sodium-ion-battery-pack-for-home-energy-48v-50ah-100ah-storage-solar-system-with-wall-mounted-battery?variant=50657798095121 On Sun, Oct 19, 2025, 1:19 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I thought that Backwoods was selling a 48 volt Sodium Ion battery, but now > I only see the 12 volt 100AH option. They also discontinued their LTO > options, due to poor adoption of them. Despite everyone saying they wanted > a coldweather lithium battery, very few actually wanted to buy them at the > price they were. I see so many people trying to use LFP in unheated > situations and running into trouble though.... > > If you want cells, there are quite a few Sodium Ion cells available on > Aliexpress now. A lot more than there was a year ago when I ordered some > 10AH cylindrical to make a test battery from them. And a fair number of 12 > volt options. But if you want complete 48 volt batteries, I'm not seeing > any sources for those yet. Currently price of the larger prismatic sodium > ion cells seems similar range to the LFP cells, which is better than it was > a year ago. > > > > -- > Zeke Yewdall > PV Engineer > NABCEP #031508-89 > zeke at darkforestsolar.com > 303-523-3592 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Mon Oct 20 21:06:27 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2025 18:06:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Off-Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, we were told it would void the PW3 warranty so we chickened out. On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 7:26 PM david quattro wrote: > Very cool gentlemen, please let us know how it goes. I find this very > intriguing. > > > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 6:38 PM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We have the same situation with a Tesla power wall three, we are going to >> try to trick it with a Honda inverter generator, 7000 W. >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> On Oct 15, 2025, at 2:27 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> I know Enphase now allows full off-grid, but I read their tech brief, and >> it requires a generator to be present for commissioning, I believe. Has >> anyone commissioned one of these systems off-grid? >> >> The reason I ask is that I have a new home build, and the utility meter >> won't be set until January or later. I could plausibly install the >> microinverters and batteries and get the system up and running to power the >> house during construction, prior to having a utility source. That should >> qualify them for the tax credit. >> >> If the off-grid mode can't be set up without a generator, I suppose it >> would be possible to "trick" the system by getting it commissioned with a >> generator on the AC input of the System Controller with the profile set to >> no export. That's not ideal, probably not advisable, and certainly not >> supported, but... as long as the generator source is clean enough to look >> like the grid... >> >> I reached out to Enphase to see if the generator requirement can be >> waived, which is the ideal scenario. >> >> I would be interested in hearing about any general experiences with >> Enphase in full off-grid use. I can't imagine there are that many out there >> yet. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Oct 22 13:49:52 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2025 17:49:52 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual Sol-Ark - not paralleled - backing up separate 200-amp panels, with one AC-coupled input: Message-ID: Background: New customer wants both 200-amp panels backed up and neither can be "slimmed down" to allow just one backup panel so looking at dual, but not paralleled, SA15 (or 18). The design / cost-reduction opportunity: There is one 100-amp set of inground conductors already going out to where ground mount would be. My immediate thought is to use this wire already in ground to transport output of solar ground mount. I'd put a large grid-tied inverter at the ground mount and "de-aggregate" the AC via a load center by the Sol-Arks, and AC couple half to each Sol-Ark. No trenching...both Sol-Arks have AC-coupled input The question I need help/ideas on: What happens to frequency shift if just one Sol-Ark /battery combo is near-full SoC during backup ops and shifts to 62hz to shutdown the AC-coupled GTI. Seems it would shift the ac-couple POI to 62hz but the other inverter would still be at 60hz still and this conflict might not "mix well" getting back to the grid-tied inverter at the ground mount. I may well come back to the option of new trenching and pulling separate DC conductors to each Sol-Ark and get the simplest, least complex design but I'm exploring all design options to use existing wire and not have to trench. Best analogy I can come up with, is that like an Outback system having "float charging coordination," I could have "freq shift coordination" between the Sol-Arks and of course that is not a feature in non-paralleled inverters. I suppose combining the separate 200-amp services and then paralleling the Sol-Ark inverters to this might be the necessary actions if I want to avoid trenching and still back up all. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 [cid:0f1e27ac-55b6-4c2c-add4-8077cad0c1ac] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-pqolcb0w.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: Outlook-pqolcb0w.png URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 14:50:26 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2025 14:50:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual Sol-Ark - not paralleled - backing up separate 200-amp panels, with one AC-coupled input: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Scott, About a year ago I backed up two separate 200A panels on a 320A service with two separate Sol-Ark 15K units and two separate battery banks. Although the separate systems functioned just fine, I was getting really crazy power flow data in the app. Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I combine the two systems (combine the battery bank and AC input/output). Apparently, upstream PV production can adversely affect the downstream system’s monitoring. Luckily, the electrical layout of the existing infrastructure allowed for me to combine the two systems fairly easily. After I combined everything, the monitoring issues cleared up. The PV in this case was DC connected and evenly split between the two inverters. But I could definitely see an AC connected PV system causing headaches with the other system when it goes to frequency shift it’s connected PV production. The other thing to keep in mind with separate systems is that if a generator is connected, controlling it from both inverters is clunky and using only one system to control the generator leaves the possibility that the other might turn off from low SOC before the generator turns on. But it sounds like you are talking about a grid tied system with AC PV input, so I’m thinking a generator probably isn’t at play. I’d be curious to hear what Sol-Ark tech support has to say about your configuration and if they would also suggest combining them. Best, Chris On Wed, Oct 22, 2025 at 1:52 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Background: New customer wants both 200-amp panels backed up and neither > can be "slimmed down" to allow just one backup panel so looking at dual, > but not paralleled, SA15 (or 18). > > The design / cost-reduction opportunity: There is one 100-amp set of > inground conductors already going out to where ground mount would be. My > immediate thought is to use this wire already in ground to transport output > of solar ground mount. I'd put a large grid-tied inverter at the ground > mount and "de-aggregate" the AC via a load center by the Sol-Arks, and AC > couple half to each Sol-Ark. No trenching...both Sol-Arks have AC-coupled > input > > The question I need help/ideas on: What happens to frequency shift if just > one Sol-Ark /battery combo is near-full SoC during backup ops and shifts to > 62hz to shutdown the AC-coupled GTI. Seems it would shift the ac-couple POI > to 62hz but the other inverter would still be at 60hz still and this > conflict might not "mix well" getting back to the grid-tied inverter at the > ground mount. > > I may well come back to the option of new trenching and pulling separate > DC conductors to each Sol-Ark and get the simplest, least complex design > but I'm exploring all design options to use existing wire and not have to > trench. > > Best analogy I can come up with, is that like an Outback system having > "float charging coordination," I could have "freq shift coordination" > between the Sol-Arks and of course that is not a feature in non-paralleled > inverters. > > I suppose combining the separate 200-amp services and then paralleling the > Sol-Ark inverters to this might be the necessary actions if I want to avoid > trenching and still back up all. > > *Howard "Scot" Arey* > *Owner, Solar CenTex* > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > TECL 29755 > 254-300-1228 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-pqolcb0w.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Oct 22 15:19:12 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2025 12:19:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual Sol-Ark - not paralleled - backing up separate 200-amp panels, with one AC-coupled input: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it is worth unpulling the in-ground conductors and making it what you really want it to be. You may have problems "De aggregating" as it just might not work. might not get equal amps flowing to one SolArk versus the other. also, if one SolArk goes down then you'd have the full 100A of AC-coupled trying to flow into the good SolArk. On Wed, Oct 22, 2025 at 11:52 AM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Scott, > > About a year ago I backed up two separate 200A panels on a 320A service > with two separate Sol-Ark 15K units and two separate battery > banks. Although the separate systems functioned just fine, I was getting > really crazy power flow data in the app. Sol-Ark tech support suggested > that I combine the two systems (combine the battery bank and AC > input/output). Apparently, upstream PV production can adversely affect the > downstream system’s monitoring. Luckily, the electrical layout of the > existing infrastructure allowed for me to combine the two systems fairly > easily. After I combined everything, the monitoring issues cleared up. The > PV in this case was DC connected and evenly split between the two > inverters. But I could definitely see an AC connected PV system causing > headaches with the other system when it goes to frequency shift it’s > connected PV production. > > The other thing to keep in mind with separate systems is that if a > generator is connected, controlling it from both inverters is clunky and > using only one system to control the generator leaves the possibility that > the other might turn off from low SOC before the generator turns on. But it > sounds like you are talking about a grid tied system with AC PV input, so > I’m thinking a generator probably isn’t at play. > > I’d be curious to hear what Sol-Ark tech support has to say about your > configuration and if they would also suggest combining them. > > Best, > > Chris > > On Wed, Oct 22, 2025 at 1:52 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Background: New customer wants both 200-amp panels backed up and neither >> can be "slimmed down" to allow just one backup panel so looking at dual, >> but not paralleled, SA15 (or 18). >> >> The design / cost-reduction opportunity: There is one 100-amp set of >> inground conductors already going out to where ground mount would be. My >> immediate thought is to use this wire already in ground to transport output >> of solar ground mount. I'd put a large grid-tied inverter at the ground >> mount and "de-aggregate" the AC via a load center by the Sol-Arks, and AC >> couple half to each Sol-Ark. No trenching...both Sol-Arks have AC-coupled >> input >> >> The question I need help/ideas on: What happens to frequency shift if >> just one Sol-Ark /battery combo is near-full SoC during backup ops and >> shifts to 62hz to shutdown the AC-coupled GTI. Seems it would shift the >> ac-couple POI to 62hz but the other inverter would still be at 60hz still >> and this conflict might not "mix well" getting back to the grid-tied >> inverter at the ground mount. >> >> I may well come back to the option of new trenching and pulling separate >> DC conductors to each Sol-Ark and get the simplest, least complex design >> but I'm exploring all design options to use existing wire and not have to >> trench. >> >> Best analogy I can come up with, is that like an Outback system having >> "float charging coordination," I could have "freq shift coordination" >> between the Sol-Arks and of course that is not a feature in non-paralleled >> inverters. >> >> I suppose combining the separate 200-amp services and then paralleling >> the Sol-Ark inverters to this might be the necessary actions if I want to >> avoid trenching and still back up all. >> >> *Howard "Scot" Arey* >> *Owner, Solar CenTex* >> >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> TECL 29755 >> 254-300-1228 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-pqolcb0w.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Wed Oct 22 15:30:09 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2025 12:30:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual Sol-Ark - not paralleled - backing up separate 200-amp panels, with one AC-coupled input: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When thinking about the AC coupled inputs on a battery inverter, remember that they are essentially in parallel (via some control relays and monitoring) with the AC output of the inverter. So if you share an AC coupled array, by definition, you are paralleling the outputs of the two inverters, and will need to stack them to keep them in sync. And I think you'd have to have the normal outputs stacked in parallel at that point as well, otherwise they'd be very unhappy at seeing different loads pulling from each one when they were trying to operate as a single inverter. The only way I can see it working with two separate systems but a single PV array is to AC or DC couple the PV array to just one of them, then have the AC output of that one connect to the gen input of the other one, to be able to shuttle some power over to the other system during grid outages. Figuring out the controls for when you shuttle power over could be tricky. And if the PV array is larger than a single inverter can handle, then it won't work. Zeke -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Oct 22 15:47:26 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Scot Arey) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2025 14:47:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual Sol-Ark - not paralleled - backing up separate 200-amp panels, with one AC-coupled input: In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-pqolcb0w.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Oct 23 09:07:32 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2025 09:07:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power Message-ID: Hi All, For years I have understood that when doing a supply side connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Oct 23 09:31:32 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2025 09:31:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2cb5920b-1764-45e6-9c17-d5d138086e6c@entech-engineering.com> The supply side switch needs the Neutral-GEC bond.  There should also be one in the Main Service Panel.  Although just looking at 250.142 (A) it says "shall be permitted".  So, that is a little confusing to me. I always have had that bond for this type of connection.  Chris On 10/23/2025 9:07 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi All, > > For years I have understood that when doing a supply side connection, > you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar service > disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up as > a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link > Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was > to make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. > When I mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there > is a N-G bond in both the main panel and the inverter distribution > panel, they said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I > want to make the system work right, but I also am hesitant to do > something against how I have understood the NEC to be for a long time. > I am curious if you all have thoughts on this or run into a similar > situation. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > Logo > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Oct 23 10:31:34 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2025 10:31:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ENPHASE store hits a all time low In-Reply-To: <2cb5920b-1764-45e6-9c17-d5d138086e6c@entech-engineering.com> References: <2cb5920b-1764-45e6-9c17-d5d138086e6c@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: > I have been battling Enphase's store as they sent a replace board to NV and I live in RI. They are blaming me. They have the shipping address and the billing address very wrong. I could have never entered a steet address for billing as we do not have street deliver mail, only deliverd to a PO Box. It's like talking to a wall. Does anyone have a contact at Enphase that I could obtain for talking to a person in this department. They won't call, and they are not returning phone calls as they promised they would. Thanks for any help.  Chris > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 From tyronehouck at gmail.com Thu Oct 23 11:01:32 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2025 08:01:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC requirement On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > For years I have understood that when doing a supply side connection, you > are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar service disconnect. > I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up as a supply side > connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link Overvoltage error. When > talking to Midnite, their first response was to make sure that there was > only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I mentioned that the solar is a > separate service and thus there is a N-G bond in both the main panel and > the inverter distribution panel, they said to remove it from the inverter > distribution panel. I want to make the system work right, but I also am > hesitant to do something against how I have understood the NEC to be for a > long time. I am curious if you all have thoughts on this or run into a > similar situation. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. > > > | Ithaca, > NY 14850 > > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Thu Oct 23 12:28:12 2025 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2025 16:28:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Re: N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As Tyrone says, times may have changed, but I've always approached supply-side connections based on the type of supply I'm connecting to. In Vermont, we see two types of connections. One with four wires between the meter and the main service disconnect (L1, L2, N, G). In this configuration, we do not make a neutral/ground bond at the PV system disconnect because one was made at the meter. The other is three wires between the meter and main service disconnect (L1, L2, N). In this configuration, we do make a neutral/ground bond at the PV system disconnect. Also, if I recall correctly, the PV system is not considered a second service under the NEC. But smarter people than I may have more up-to-date information. Thanks, Will ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2025 11:01 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Tyrone Houck Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC requirement On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi All, For years I have understood that when doing a supply side connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. Cheers, Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com Thu Oct 23 14:35:42 2025 From: tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com (Tom McCalmont) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2025 11:35:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92F8BD01-FBBF-4EC1-BDB9-12727D78A210@pairedpower.com> I consulted our Code expert on this question, and this is his explanation: In 2020 NEC and previous code cycles, the N-G bond requirement in the Solar OCPD for supply side taps was a grey area. In the 2023 NEC, it is clear the Solar OCPD for supply side taps requires the N-G bond. This mimics the requirement where a building has multiple service OCPD enclosures. If the N-G bond, supply side tap conductors (phase and neutral, no EGC), and GEC are all sized and installed correctly (as if it is a separate service), there should not be any issues. I’m not familiar with Midnite inverters, but “CA-DC link Overvoltage error“ sounds like a DC issue, so I don’t see how the AC voltage would matter. If this error is related to AC voltage, maybe the real issue is a faulty neutral connection between the service and utility transformer? Tom McCalmont, P.E. CEO, Paired Power pairedpower.com | LinkedIn Direct: (669) 877-2931 > On Oct 23, 2025, at 8:01 AM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > > My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. > It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC requirement > > > > > On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd.   | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 23 17:24:02 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2025 17:24:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV service disconnect. Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble opinion. Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The issue there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the backup load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as someone who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I say simple, but that can be hard to track down. When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel, they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. I think more information is needed. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan > Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion > may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. > It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my > opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where > the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal > potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral > is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC > requirement > > > > > On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side connection, you >> are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar service disconnect. >> I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up as a supply side >> connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link Overvoltage error. When >> talking to Midnite, their first response was to make sure that there was >> only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I mentioned that the solar is a >> separate service and thus there is a N-G bond in both the main panel and >> the inverter distribution panel, they said to remove it from the inverter >> distribution panel. I want to make the system work right, but I also am >> hesitant to do something against how I have understood the NEC to be for a >> long time. I am curious if you all have thoughts on this or run into a >> similar situation. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >> >> >> | Ithaca, >> NY 14850 >> >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 23 17:25:56 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2025 17:25:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ENPHASE store hits a all time low In-Reply-To: References: <2cb5920b-1764-45e6-9c17-d5d138086e6c@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: The store does seem to run somewhat independently. I will send you a potential contact off-list. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 10:31 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I have been battling Enphase's store as they sent a replace board to NV > and I live in RI. They are blaming me. They have the shipping address and > the billing address very wrong. I could have never entered a steet address > for billing as we do not have street deliver mail, only deliverd to a PO > Box. > > > It's like talking to a wall. Does anyone have a contact at Enphase that > I could obtain for talking to a person in this department. They won't > call, and they are not returning phone calls as they promised they would. > > Thanks for any help. Chris > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Thu Oct 23 18:31:50 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2025 15:31:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I remember going back and forth with two different Boulder County inspectors on this issue around 2007 -- one made me install the neutral-ground bond in the supply side disconnect switch. The next one inspected that and failed me and made me remove it. Then the first one came back and failed me again and made me put it back. My understanding more recently has been that a supply side PV disconnect is not really a separate service and therefore should not have a separate nuetral-ground bond. It is more like when you have two 200A breakers fed by a 320A meter socket -- it is a single service with two outputs. But... we end up with a separate physical box, rather than both outputs being in the same physical box like that example. It still has to be within 6 feet of the main service to that second PV disconnect, but is a separate box. Per Tom's replay, looks like 2023 NEC clarified that if it's a separate enclosure, then it requires a separate neutral-ground bond, and that would make sense for the PV disconnect requiring a separate bond. So... if you are on 2023 NEC, then having that make sense. If on 2020 or earlier... seems like it's still ambiguous. What having multiple neutral ground bonds does in practice (other than some bad things with lighting surges) is cause neutral current to flow in the equipment grounds, which is generally not good, because equipment grounds may be much smaller than neutral conductors. What I have been doing, if possible, on the two inverters backing up a full 200A subpanel situation like you describe is putting a 200A 8 space feedthrough panel on the exterior of the house. This panel gets the nuetral-ground bond as the first point of disconnect from the grid. Then two 100A breakers feed the two inverters AC-in terminals. And the feed through terminals of the panel go to the grid source for a manual bypass switch. Then you are essentially connecting the PV system per 705.12(B)(3) rather than 705.12(A) like a supply side connection. Have to mark the feedthrough panel that no additional loads are allowed (fill the other two spaces with plug on surge suppressors). The complication is that if you had the bypass switch in inverter bypass, sending the grid to your 200A load panel, the inverters could still be drawing from the grid to charge batteries, or selling PV to the grid, and potentially overloading that feedthrough pane (at least per code... I can't think of how it could actually overload the panel, as if it drew more than 200A total between inverters and the feed through lugs going to the loads while charging batteries, the main 200A breaker would trip to protect the bus. If it sold back 200A from solar while the inverters were bypassed from the load (not that the inverters could, but if they did sell the full amount the breakers were capable of), that 200A could either go fully to the load, or fully to the grid, or somewhere in between, but would never be more than the 200A rating of the bus. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com Fri Oct 24 10:09:13 2025 From: Jharen.Poole at sol-ark.com (Poole, Jharen) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2025 14:09:13 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual Sol-Ark - not paralleled - backing up separate 200-amp panels, with one AC-coupled input: In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Having the inverters operate unparalleled with a single AC coupled input is not a recommended configuration for an installation that I would give. In this setup, the inverters can conflict with each other, leading to unstable or abnormal behavior in the system operation and the data being reported. While I haven’t personally encountered this exact configuration in the field, similar cases have shown that, at best, it results in no operation for the AC coupled source, erratic inverter performance (Inverters constantly fighting for the power, resulting in unstable amperage draw or issues with syncing), and in more severe cases the inverters fail to operate with each other resulting in potential equipment damage. To address your question about the frequency shifting, if the inverters were to reach this stage without tripping a fault, there would likely be a heightened risk of phase and frequency instability. Ideally, the AC-coupled source would shut down, but the Sol-Ark inverters could potentially enter a loop where significant damage may occur. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:0c4ed8fc-b5ea-4f39-883c-c4dc4d6d3821] ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Howard Scot Arey via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2025 2:47 PM To: Chris Sparadeo ; RE-wrenches Cc: Howard Scot Arey Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dual Sol-Ark - not paralleled - backing up separate 200-amp panels, with one AC-coupled input: Caution: This email is from an external source. Thanks for everyone's feedback and can't say any is unexpected. Combining the loads and paralleling the SolArks might be best but would allow me to share the ac-coupled GTI input to both via a de-agg panel. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: Chris Sparadeo Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2025 1:50:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: scot.arey at solarcentex.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dual Sol-Ark - not paralleled - backing up separate 200-amp panels, with one AC-coupled input: Hi Scott, About a year ago I backed up two separate 200A panels on a 320A service with two separate Sol-Ark 15K units and two separate battery banks. Although the separate systems functioned just fine, I was getting really crazy power flow data in the app. Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I combine the two systems (combine the battery bank and AC input/output). Apparently, upstream PV production can adversely affect the downstream system’s monitoring. Luckily, the electrical layout of the existing infrastructure allowed for me to combine the two systems fairly easily. After I combined everything, the monitoring issues cleared up. The PV in this case was DC connected and evenly split between the two inverters. But I could definitely see an AC connected PV system causing headaches with the other system when it goes to frequency shift it’s connected PV production. The other thing to keep in mind with separate systems is that if a generator is connected, controlling it from both inverters is clunky and using only one system to control the generator leaves the possibility that the other might turn off from low SOC before the generator turns on. But it sounds like you are talking about a grid tied system with AC PV input, so I’m thinking a generator probably isn’t at play. I’d be curious to hear what Sol-Ark tech support has to say about your configuration and if they would also suggest combining them. Best, Chris On Wed, Oct 22, 2025 at 1:52 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches > wrote: Background: New customer wants both 200-amp panels backed up and neither can be "slimmed down" to allow just one backup panel so looking at dual, but not paralleled, SA15 (or 18). The design / cost-reduction opportunity: There is one 100-amp set of inground conductors already going out to where ground mount would be. My immediate thought is to use this wire already in ground to transport output of solar ground mount. I'd put a large grid-tied inverter at the ground mount and "de-aggregate" the AC via a load center by the Sol-Arks, and AC couple half to each Sol-Ark. No trenching...both Sol-Arks have AC-coupled input The question I need help/ideas on: What happens to frequency shift if just one Sol-Ark /battery combo is near-full SoC during backup ops and shifts to 62hz to shutdown the AC-coupled GTI. Seems it would shift the ac-couple POI to 62hz but the other inverter would still be at 60hz still and this conflict might not "mix well" getting back to the grid-tied inverter at the ground mount. I may well come back to the option of new trenching and pulling separate DC conductors to each Sol-Ark and get the simplest, least complex design but I'm exploring all design options to use existing wire and not have to trench. Best analogy I can come up with, is that like an Outback system having "float charging coordination," I could have "freq shift coordination" between the Sol-Arks and of course that is not a feature in non-paralleled inverters. I suppose combining the separate 200-amp services and then paralleling the Sol-Ark inverters to this might be the necessary actions if I want to avoid trenching and still back up all. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 [cid:ii_19a0d34c7974bb066c91] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-pqolcb0w.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: Outlook-pqolcb0w.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-2cw2a5dd.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: Outlook-2cw2a5dd.png URL: From tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com Fri Oct 24 11:39:25 2025 From: tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com (Tom McCalmont) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2025 08:39:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78FCE1CE-9B09-4752-97F9-7B271D3773DC@pairedpower.com> I agree with Zeke that having two N-G bonds in a supply-side connection is not ideal because of the potential of ground loops and shock risk between the two tie-points. We’ve fought this issue with AHJ’s and as the song goes, “I fought the law, and the law won.” 2023 NEC is pretty clear that it’s required now, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. Tom McCalmont CEO, Paired Power pairedpower.com | LinkedIn Direct: (669) 877-2931 > On Oct 23, 2025, at 3:31 PM, Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I remember going back and forth with two different Boulder County inspectors on this issue around 2007 -- one made me install the neutral-ground bond in the supply side disconnect switch. The next one inspected that and failed me and made me remove it. Then the first one came back and failed me again and made me put it back. > > My understanding more recently has been that a supply side PV disconnect is not really a separate service and therefore should not have a separate nuetral-ground bond. It is more like when you have two 200A breakers fed by a 320A meter socket -- it is a single service with two outputs. But... we end up with a separate physical box, rather than both outputs being in the same physical box like that example. It still has to be within 6 feet of the main service to that second PV disconnect, but is a separate box. Per Tom's replay, looks like 2023 NEC clarified that if it's a separate enclosure, then it requires a separate neutral-ground bond, and that would make sense for the PV disconnect requiring a separate bond. So... if you are on 2023 NEC, then having that make sense. If on 2020 or earlier... seems like it's still ambiguous. > > What having multiple neutral ground bonds does in practice (other than some bad things with lighting surges) is cause neutral current to flow in the equipment grounds, which is generally not good, because equipment grounds may be much smaller than neutral conductors. > > What I have been doing, if possible, on the two inverters backing up a full 200A subpanel situation like you describe is putting a 200A 8 space feedthrough panel on the exterior of the house. This panel gets the nuetral-ground bond as the first point of disconnect from the grid. Then two 100A breakers feed the two inverters AC-in terminals. And the feed through terminals of the panel go to the grid source for a manual bypass switch. Then you are essentially connecting the PV system per 705.12(B)(3) rather than 705.12(A) like a supply side connection. Have to mark the feedthrough panel that no additional loads are allowed (fill the other two spaces with plug on surge suppressors). The complication is that if you had the bypass switch in inverter bypass, sending the grid to your 200A load panel, the inverters could still be drawing from the grid to charge batteries, or selling PV to the grid, and potentially overloading that feedthrough pane (at least per code... I can't think of how it could actually overload the panel, as if it drew more than 200A total between inverters and the feed through lugs going to the loads while charging batteries, the main 200A breaker would trip to protect the bus. If it sold back 200A from solar while the inverters were bypassed from the load (not that the inverters could, but if they did sell the full amount the breakers were capable of), that 200A could either go fully to the load, or fully to the grid, or somewhere in between, but would never be more than the 200A rating of the bus. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 11:59:27 2025 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2025 11:59:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ilsco IPC's Engineering Hold Message-ID: Wrenches, I called Ilsco today to get some part numbers for IPCs rated for supply side connections, and they said that "all their part numbers are on an engineering hold and are not to be sold". He said that was all he was allowed to tell me. I know that their IPC-250-4/0 is rated for supply side connections (as per NEC 2023) and had been calling to see if any of their smaller IPC's were rated yet. Anyone have any more information on this 'engineering hold'? What are folks using for supply side connections on residential systems for NEC 2023? Thanks Adam Adam Katzman (he/him) Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri Oct 24 13:44:28 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2025 17:44:28 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual Sol-Ark - not paralleled - backing up separate 200-amp panels, with one AC-coupled input: In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Your answer is appreciated and acknowledged. When I posted this, I 99.999% expected the answer would be: "Ummmm, of course you can't do this (dummy)" and the real value has been reading some options from you all. Think I'll be combining the two panels via 400-amp disconnect for a single service entrance, paralleling the two Sol-Arks/Homegrid batteries, and adding a grid-tied PV inverter at the array and use the inground conductors to AC-couple to the paralleled Sol-Arks. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Poole, Jharen via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, October 24, 2025 9:09 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Poole, Jharen Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dual Sol-Ark - not paralleled - backing up separate 200-amp panels, with one AC-coupled input: Having the inverters operate unparalleled with a single AC coupled input is not a recommended configuration for an installation that I would give. In this setup, the inverters can conflict with each other, leading to unstable or abnormal behavior in the system operation and the data being reported. While I haven’t personally encountered this exact configuration in the field, similar cases have shown that, at best, it results in no operation for the AC coupled source, erratic inverter performance (Inverters constantly fighting for the power, resulting in unstable amperage draw or issues with syncing), and in more severe cases the inverters fail to operate with each other resulting in potential equipment damage. To address your question about the frequency shifting, if the inverters were to reach this stage without tripping a fault, there would likely be a heightened risk of phase and frequency instability. Ideally, the AC-coupled source would shut down, but the Sol-Ark inverters could potentially enter a loop where significant damage may occur. Best Regards, Jharen Poole Applications Engineer II 972-575-8875 [cid:0c4ed8fc-b5ea-4f39-883c-c4dc4d6d3821] ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Howard Scot Arey via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2025 2:47 PM To: Chris Sparadeo ; RE-wrenches Cc: Howard Scot Arey Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dual Sol-Ark - not paralleled - backing up separate 200-amp panels, with one AC-coupled input: Caution: This email is from an external source. Thanks for everyone's feedback and can't say any is unexpected. Combining the loads and paralleling the SolArks might be best but would allow me to share the ac-coupled GTI input to both via a de-agg panel. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 ________________________________ From: Chris Sparadeo Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2025 1:50:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: scot.arey at solarcentex.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dual Sol-Ark - not paralleled - backing up separate 200-amp panels, with one AC-coupled input: Hi Scott, About a year ago I backed up two separate 200A panels on a 320A service with two separate Sol-Ark 15K units and two separate battery banks. Although the separate systems functioned just fine, I was getting really crazy power flow data in the app. Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I combine the two systems (combine the battery bank and AC input/output). Apparently, upstream PV production can adversely affect the downstream system’s monitoring. Luckily, the electrical layout of the existing infrastructure allowed for me to combine the two systems fairly easily. After I combined everything, the monitoring issues cleared up. The PV in this case was DC connected and evenly split between the two inverters. But I could definitely see an AC connected PV system causing headaches with the other system when it goes to frequency shift it’s connected PV production. The other thing to keep in mind with separate systems is that if a generator is connected, controlling it from both inverters is clunky and using only one system to control the generator leaves the possibility that the other might turn off from low SOC before the generator turns on. But it sounds like you are talking about a grid tied system with AC PV input, so I’m thinking a generator probably isn’t at play. I’d be curious to hear what Sol-Ark tech support has to say about your configuration and if they would also suggest combining them. Best, Chris On Wed, Oct 22, 2025 at 1:52 PM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches > wrote: Background: New customer wants both 200-amp panels backed up and neither can be "slimmed down" to allow just one backup panel so looking at dual, but not paralleled, SA15 (or 18). The design / cost-reduction opportunity: There is one 100-amp set of inground conductors already going out to where ground mount would be. My immediate thought is to use this wire already in ground to transport output of solar ground mount. I'd put a large grid-tied inverter at the ground mount and "de-aggregate" the AC via a load center by the Sol-Arks, and AC couple half to each Sol-Ark. No trenching...both Sol-Arks have AC-coupled input The question I need help/ideas on: What happens to frequency shift if just one Sol-Ark /battery combo is near-full SoC during backup ops and shifts to 62hz to shutdown the AC-coupled GTI. Seems it would shift the ac-couple POI to 62hz but the other inverter would still be at 60hz still and this conflict might not "mix well" getting back to the grid-tied inverter at the ground mount. I may well come back to the option of new trenching and pulling separate DC conductors to each Sol-Ark and get the simplest, least complex design but I'm exploring all design options to use existing wire and not have to trench. Best analogy I can come up with, is that like an Outback system having "float charging coordination," I could have "freq shift coordination" between the Sol-Arks and of course that is not a feature in non-paralleled inverters. I suppose combining the separate 200-amp services and then paralleling the Sol-Ark inverters to this might be the necessary actions if I want to avoid trenching and still back up all. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 [cid:ii_19a0d34c7974bb066c91] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-pqolcb0w.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: Outlook-pqolcb0w.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-2cw2a5dd.png Type: image/png Size: 82002 bytes Desc: Outlook-2cw2a5dd.png URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 16:59:43 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2025 13:59:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ilsco IPC's Engineering Hold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I regularly use there Kupltap line for supply side and feeder taps. Never had any issue(practical or otherwise). Important to follow the torque specs and install on straight sections of wire.. I most often use the #2-4/0 On Fri, Oct 24, 2025, 8:59 AM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > I called Ilsco today to get some part numbers for IPCs rated for supply > side connections, and they said that "all their part numbers are on an > engineering hold and are not to be sold". He said that was all he was > allowed to tell me. > > I know that their IPC-250-4/0 is rated for supply side connections (as > per NEC 2023) and had been calling to see if any of their smaller IPC's > were rated yet. Anyone have any more information on this 'engineering > hold'? What are folks using for supply side connections on residential > systems for NEC 2023? Thanks > Adam > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Oct 24 18:53:29 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2025 15:53:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter Output Circuit OCPD Meltdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Wrenches - Blast from the past here, I just saw a tech note from Tesla that Eaton is recommending BR breakers with a H suffix for installations with high continuous currents like solar inverters, battery inverters, and EV chargers to avoid the risk of a thermal event. https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/skuPage.BR260H.html According to the note in the catalog https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/low-voltage-power-distribution-controls-systems/loadcenters-and-circuit-breakers-v1-t1-ca08100002e.pdf [image: image.png] -August On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 9:39 AM August Goers wrote: > Hi Jason - > > It certainly appears that there was some sort of surge or short. We've had > a few cases where microinverter branch circuit end termination caps were > left off or fell off and shorted out during rain storms. You might want to > double check that those are all in place. We've also had cases were > microinvers themselves developed internal shorts. This third comment is > only anecdotal - I've been in touch with a couple of other installers that > have had back-fed breaker issues specifically with Eaton brand breakers > burning up the bus stabs. Our company has had one unexplained issue where > the inverter output breaker bus stabs were burned up with Eaton breakers. I > have no idea whether the breakers were faulty or what, but thought I'd just > mention it in case there is a pattern. > > Best, August > Luminalt > > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 9:10 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> (System installed by another contractor...) >> >> I have been tasked with assisting in the investigation of damage in a >> subpanel used to combine inverter output circuits (5 strings of >> microinverters). There appears to be no damage to conductors or other >> system components. It looks like the damage started at the stabs of the bus >> bar where the breakers connect. Picture attached. Here are a few clues: >> >> - Monitoring indicates that damage occurred overnight a few weeks >> ago. That night we had rain as a winter front came through Florida, >> possibly lightning. The prior day everything was fine. >> - The next morning, only 2 of 5 strings started producing power, but >> 4 of 5 strings were reporting data to the Envoy. The two strings that were >> reporting but not producing power reported 0Vac and Voc on the DC side of >> the microinverters. >> - A couple of weeks later, 1 of the 2 strings that was producing >> power quit doing so, but continued reporting data. >> - Customer discovered damage yesterday. >> - About a week before the initial damage apparently manifested >> itself, another contractor installed a whole house generator transfer >> switch on the line side of the PV interconnection. The generator has never >> been run (there is not even a LP fuel source on site yet). I pointed out >> that the solar interconnection, which was previously on the supply side, >> would need to be moved to the supply side of the generator transfer >> switch's main breaker before operation. During the transfer switch >> installation, the contractor also switched line 1 and line 2, but that >> shouldn't really matter, except for Enphase consumption monitoring, which >> was messed up by the swapping of the lines. >> >> So I'm looking for ideas. I'm wondering if the OCPD would be a likely >> place for lightning damage to manifest itself. I can't visually detect any >> other damage anywhere else. I can't imagine that the transfer switch >> installation would have anything to do with it, but the timing is >> interesting. Other than replacing the subpanel and OCPD and firing it back >> up (no pun intended), I'm not sure how to approach further investigation. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 64172 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Oct 23 20:58:12 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2025 20:58:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general consensus so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main disconnecting means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not technically a separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made it very clear that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter combiner / solar main disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And being that NY is still on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with the ambiguity in the code I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in the main solar disconnect. In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based on the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it could have anything to do with the DC side. Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in the solar main disconnect does not help. So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a supply side connection? 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this error and found that it was caused by something else? Cheers, Dave On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing > service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect > for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N > connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should > be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be > no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV > service disconnect. > > Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter > enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. > > Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where the > supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This creates > a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble opinion. > > Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The issue > there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the backup > load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as someone > who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I say > simple, but that can be hard to track down. > > When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel, they > were probably talking about the protected loads panel. > > I think more information is needed. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan >> Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion >> may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my >> opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where >> the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >> requirement >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side connection, >>> you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar service >>> disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up as a >>> supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link Overvoltage >>> error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to make sure that >>> there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I mentioned that the >>> solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond in both the main >>> panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to remove it from the >>> inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system work right, but I >>> also am hesitant to do something against how I have understood the NEC to >>> be for a long time. I am curious if you all have thoughts on this or run >>> into a similar situation. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> -- >>> >>> [image: Logo] >>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>> p: he | him | his >>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>> >>> >>> | Ithaca, >>> NY 14850 >>> >>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PV3.0 as built.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2474985 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PV3.1 as built.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 286875 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Oct 25 09:19:58 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2025 09:19:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ilsco IPC's Engineering Hold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We use B-Taps, but supply-side connections are getting fewer and fewer with all of the PCS options on the market now. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Oct 24, 2025 at 12:00 PM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > I called Ilsco today to get some part numbers for IPCs rated for supply > side connections, and they said that "all their part numbers are on an > engineering hold and are not to be sold". He said that was all he was > allowed to tell me. > > I know that their IPC-250-4/0 is rated for supply side connections (as > per NEC 2023) and had been calling to see if any of their smaller IPC's > were rated yet. Anyone have any more information on this 'engineering > hold'? What are folks using for supply side connections on residential > systems for NEC 2023? Thanks > Adam > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Oct 25 09:46:17 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2025 09:46:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It shouldn't be too hard in a partial backup situation to check for inadvertent N-G bonds on the load side of your new protected load panel. I would just shut the power off and remove all of the load neutrals from the neutral bar and check for continuity to ground. I would not remove the N-G bond in your solar combiner panel, which contains what is effectively a second service disconnect. I would remove the GEC from that circuit, as it creates a parallel return path. The GEC only needs to come from one location on the supply side of the service disconnecting means. By keeping the N-G bond in the solar combiner panel, the neutral wire will carry any fault current to the GEC, which is acceptable in this case. It's effectively the same as having the GEC originating from a wiring trough ahead of the service disconnecting means, or as we do in Florida, the GEC comes from the meter enclosure, and all downstream service disconnects are bonded. In other words, no GEC or EGC is required to the solar combiner panel. Just L1, L2, and N in non-metallic conduit. I haven't seen this issue with the AIO, but I have seen it with the Sol-Ark inverters, which seem particularly picky about bonding issues (perhaps rightfully so). On another note, why the supply side interconnection? It's my understanding that the AIO is listed as a Power Control System. I haven't used it that way, and the details in the manual are weak, but I believe it can be done. I would have considered a 125A load side feeder from the main service panel (if you are moving loads out to a protected load panel anyway, there would be physical space for a breaker). You could even run a 200A feeder to the AIOs to get a full 200A passthrough with dual inverters and move over even more loads and use the smart load capabilities. With that said, I rarely do partial home backup in these situations. I know you said it's a small subset of loads, which is reasonable given the battery capacity, so that might make perfect sense. Depending on the circumstances, sometimes it's just easier to put a new service disconnect ahead of the inverters and make the existing main service panel a subpanel, and then remove non-backup loads and put them on smart load circuits or otherwise do load shedding. It increases the owner's flexibility to back up anything they want in the house selectively. One more thing. It looks like you have all PV circuits running through J-Box "B." There was some talk recently about cross-talk between multiple RSD transmitters that can make things go south if you have circuits from different transmitters in close proximity. I have not seen that problem in practice, but I have started to isolate my raceways and enclosures in multiple inverter setups. Enough unsolicited advice... I would start with removing that GEC and see if it fixes the problem, and if not, investigate for inadvertent load side bonds. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Oct 24, 2025 at 8:50 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general consensus so > far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main disconnecting means > when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not technically a > separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made it very clear > that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter combiner / solar main > disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And being that NY is still > on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with the ambiguity in the code > I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in the main solar disconnect. > > In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of loads > in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is about > 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be able > to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to powering > the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the inverters. > The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am not sure > if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain all the > details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram here. The > second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. > > Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based on the > words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear about > it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it could > have anything to do with the DC side. > > Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved over > to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. This > also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond in > the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It > seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to > the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in > the solar main disconnect does not help. > > So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: > 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a > supply side connection? > 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had issues > with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G bond in > the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar main > disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this error > and found that it was caused by something else? > > Cheers, > Dave > > > > On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing >> service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect >> for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N >> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should >> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be >> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV >> service disconnect. >> >> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter >> enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >> >> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where the >> supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This creates >> a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble opinion. >> >> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The issue >> there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the backup >> load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as someone >> who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I say >> simple, but that can be hard to track down. >> >> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel, >> they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >> >> I think more information is needed. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan >>> Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion >>> may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my >>> opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where >>> the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >>> requirement >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side connection, >>>> you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar service >>>> disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up as a >>>> supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link Overvoltage >>>> error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to make sure that >>>> there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I mentioned that the >>>> solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond in both the main >>>> panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to remove it from the >>>> inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system work right, but I >>>> also am hesitant to do something against how I have understood the NEC to >>>> be for a long time. I am curious if you all have thoughts on this or run >>>> into a similar situation. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> [image: Logo] >>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>> p: he | him | his >>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>> >>>> >>>> | Ithaca, >>>> NY 14850 >>>> >>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 09:47:40 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2025 07:47:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D227238-D4DF-41C3-9600-5FFA707A4208@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Oct 25 12:13:43 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:13:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange Question: 1-Panel System Message-ID: Okay, this is going to be a strange question. I'm looking for the lowest cost way to install a single solar panel and inverter that is grid tied. i need it to be grid-tied and it needs to be monitored in some way. I'm thinking a microinverter is the way to go, but I don't want to buy a $600 Enphase Gateway to make it happen. Since someone is probably going to ask, I will go ahead and explain. A local utility company has a top marginal residential energy use rate of about 15 cents per kWh. The first and second 500 kWh monthly are billed at a slightly lower rate. However, when you enter into a netmetering agreement, the switch you to a "blended" rate, which is currently 9 cents per kWh, regardless of what you net energy use ends up being. You might see where I'm going here. Installing a single netmetered panel reduces a customer's marginal rate by 6 cents a kWh. This could be a substantial savings, particularly for heavy energy users. I have people interested, for obvious reasons. -- Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Oct 25 12:25:48 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:25:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange Question: 1-Panel System In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Oct 25 12:31:52 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:31:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange Question: 1-Panel System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, I imagine you might be aware of the new small system "plug-in" PV law in Idaho. idahobusinessreview.com/2025/08/20/plug-in-solar-panels-affordable-alternative/ I don't know the OEMs for simple systems like this, but it might be worth a look. FYI The Idaho plug-in law, which features little to any paperwork or approval from the utility, is being introduced in the Vermont legislature this coming session. On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 12:17 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Okay, this is going to be a strange question. I'm looking for the lowest > cost way to install a single solar panel and inverter that is grid tied. i > need it to be grid-tied and it needs to be monitored in some way. I'm > thinking a microinverter is the way to go, but I don't want to buy a $600 > Enphase Gateway to make it happen. > > Since someone is probably going to ask, I will go ahead and explain. A > local utility company has a top marginal residential energy use rate of > about 15 cents per kWh. The first and second 500 kWh monthly are billed at > a slightly lower rate. However, when you enter into a netmetering > agreement, the switch you to a "blended" rate, which is currently 9 cents > per kWh, regardless of what you net energy use ends up being. > > You might see where I'm going here. Installing a single netmetered panel > reduces a customer's marginal rate by 6 cents a kWh. This could be a > substantial savings, particularly for heavy energy users. > > I have people interested, for obvious reasons. > -- > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 12:46:33 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2025 10:46:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange Question: 1-Panel System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55AD1984-613B-4671-AAD5-D8DF259D5A40@gmail.com> Small plug in the wall micro inverters started back in the early 2000’s. I had one on my deck. It was about the size of a pack of cards and was from Europe, of course it might have only been 100 watts or less. The biggest issue with the bigger players here is that they are all 240vac, which makes simple install difficult. And for some reason, the enphase can just fail if you don’t have them connected via their gateway. I have 4 that are connected without the gateway and 1 just failed. ( if anyone has a old enphase they want to get rid of or low $ let me know) I don’t know what standards the new regs are using? jay > On Oct 25, 2025, at 10:25 AM, Glenn via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Have you seen the ads for the new plug in the wall PV panels? Apparently they are common in Europe and are working their way here. > > Do the new generation of microinverters require a gateway now? I have a couple of panels running off m250s for years with no direct monitoring. I do have a Sense monitor on my house and can see it's effect on my usage. > > If you can use a current micro without the gateway, a company called Shelly sells inexpensive DIN rail power monitors with wifi and BT connection > > -Glenn > > On Oct 25, 2025 12:13, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Okay, this is going to be a strange question. I'm looking for the lowest cost way to install a single solar panel and inverter that is grid tied. i need it to be grid-tied and it needs to be monitored in some way. I'm thinking a microinverter is the way to go, but I don't want to buy a $600 Enphase Gateway to make it happen. > > Since someone is probably going to ask, I will go ahead and explain. A local utility company has a top marginal residential energy use rate of about 15 cents per kWh. The first and second 500 kWh monthly are billed at a slightly lower rate. However, when you enter into a netmetering agreement, the switch you to a "blended" rate, which is currently 9 cents per kWh, regardless of what you net energy use ends up being. > > You might see where I'm going here. Installing a single netmetered panel reduces a customer's marginal rate by 6 cents a kWh. This could be a substantial savings, particularly for heavy energy users. > > I have people interested, for obvious reasons. > -- > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 12:52:32 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2025 10:52:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL 9540 In-Reply-To: <55AD1984-613B-4671-AAD5-D8DF259D5A40@gmail.com> References: <55AD1984-613B-4671-AAD5-D8DF259D5A40@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5D72E368-DB54-4185-AEDC-175B68227B7B@gmail.com> Hi All, Is there a new regulation ( or one I just wasn’t aware of) that the inverter is supposed to be listed with the batteries for the UL 9540 to be approved? thanks jay From steve at surrette.com Sat Oct 25 12:56:09 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2025 09:56:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL 9540 In-Reply-To: <5D72E368-DB54-4185-AEDC-175B68227B7B@gmail.com> References: <55AD1984-613B-4671-AAD5-D8DF259D5A40@gmail.com> <5D72E368-DB54-4185-AEDC-175B68227B7B@gmail.com> Message-ID: The first version of UL9540, maybe the 2nd as well... but the current version of UL9540 split this up... *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:53 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > Is there a new regulation ( or one I just wasn’t aware of) that the > inverter is supposed to be listed with the batteries for the UL 9540 to be > approved? > > thanks > > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Oct 25 13:01:47 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2025 10:01:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange Question: 1-Panel System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glenn: I asked Enphase if I could run IQ7+ inverters without a gateway and got conflicting answers. I tried it and the result I got was the inverters would run briefly without a gateway and then shut down. Apparently we needed the gateway to load in a grid profile to the inverters. Once the client bought the gateway and we loaded the profile there was no reason to remove the gateway. Therefore I don’t know if you need the gateway to remain in place. Hope this helps. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:28 AM Glenn via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Have you seen the ads for the new plug in the wall PV panels? Apparently > they are common in Europe and are working their way here. > > Do the new generation of microinverters require a gateway now? I have a > couple of panels running off m250s for years with no direct monitoring. I > do have a Sense monitor on my house and can see it's effect on my usage. > > If you can use a current micro without the gateway, a company called > Shelly sells inexpensive DIN rail power monitors with wifi and BT connection > > -Glenn > > On Oct 25, 2025 12:13, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Okay, this is going to be a strange question. I'm looking for the lowest > cost way to install a single solar panel and inverter that is grid tied. i > need it to be grid-tied and it needs to be monitored in some way. I'm > thinking a microinverter is the way to go, but I don't want to buy a $600 > Enphase Gateway to make it happen. > > Since someone is probably going to ask, I will go ahead and explain. A > local utility company has a top marginal residential energy use rate of > about 15 cents per kWh. The first and second 500 kWh monthly are billed at > a slightly lower rate. However, when you enter into a netmetering > agreement, the switch you to a "blended" rate, which is currently 9 cents > per kWh, regardless of what you net energy use ends up being. > > You might see where I'm going here. Installing a single netmetered panel > reduces a customer's marginal rate by 6 cents a kWh. This could be a > substantial savings, particularly for heavy energy users. > > I have people interested, for obvious reasons. > -- > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Oct 25 13:40:41 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2025 13:40:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange Question: 1-Panel System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I love the idea of the Shelly for monitoring. That could be the solution. I can't do plug-in because I need to get a permit and inspection to get the interconnection agreement processed. On Sat, Oct 25, 2025, 12:26 PM Glenn wrote: > Have you seen the ads for the new plug in the wall PV panels? Apparently > they are common in Europe and are working their way here. > > Do the new generation of microinverters require a gateway now? I have a > couple of panels running off m250s for years with no direct monitoring. I > do have a Sense monitor on my house and can see it's effect on my usage. > > If you can use a current micro without the gateway, a company called > Shelly sells inexpensive DIN rail power monitors with wifi and BT connection > > -Glenn > > On Oct 25, 2025 12:13, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Okay, this is going to be a strange question. I'm looking for the lowest > cost way to install a single solar panel and inverter that is grid tied. i > need it to be grid-tied and it needs to be monitored in some way. I'm > thinking a microinverter is the way to go, but I don't want to buy a $600 > Enphase Gateway to make it happen. > > Since someone is probably going to ask, I will go ahead and explain. A > local utility company has a top marginal residential energy use rate of > about 15 cents per kWh. The first and second 500 kWh monthly are billed at > a slightly lower rate. However, when you enter into a netmetering > agreement, the switch you to a "blended" rate, which is currently 9 cents > per kWh, regardless of what you net energy use ends up being. > > You might see where I'm going here. Installing a single netmetered panel > reduces a customer's marginal rate by 6 cents a kWh. This could be a > substantial savings, particularly for heavy energy users. > > I have people interested, for obvious reasons. > -- > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 01:09:34 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2025 22:09:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange Question: 1-Panel System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, Just go with the enphase and just the EMU (Enlighten Monitor) not the combiner box and let it fly, easy to add later on if so desired, I would stay away from these off brand products, Ya I know enphase has its issues too, BTW do you need a dedicated monitor, I have used one that i moved from site to site instead, it was a little bit of a pain but helped Fun times On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 10:44 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I love the idea of the Shelly for monitoring. That could be the solution. > > I can't do plug-in because I need to get a permit and inspection to get > the interconnection agreement processed. > > > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2025, 12:26 PM Glenn wrote: > >> Have you seen the ads for the new plug in the wall PV panels? Apparently >> they are common in Europe and are working their way here. >> >> Do the new generation of microinverters require a gateway now? I have a >> couple of panels running off m250s for years with no direct monitoring. I >> do have a Sense monitor on my house and can see it's effect on my usage. >> >> If you can use a current micro without the gateway, a company called >> Shelly sells inexpensive DIN rail power monitors with wifi and BT connection >> >> -Glenn >> >> On Oct 25, 2025 12:13, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Okay, this is going to be a strange question. I'm looking for the lowest >> cost way to install a single solar panel and inverter that is grid tied. i >> need it to be grid-tied and it needs to be monitored in some way. I'm >> thinking a microinverter is the way to go, but I don't want to buy a $600 >> Enphase Gateway to make it happen. >> >> Since someone is probably going to ask, I will go ahead and explain. A >> local utility company has a top marginal residential energy use rate of >> about 15 cents per kWh. The first and second 500 kWh monthly are billed at >> a slightly lower rate. However, when you enter into a netmetering >> agreement, the switch you to a "blended" rate, which is currently 9 cents >> per kWh, regardless of what you net energy use ends up being. >> >> You might see where I'm going here. Installing a single netmetered panel >> reduces a customer's marginal rate by 6 cents a kWh. This could be a >> substantial savings, particularly for heavy energy users. >> >> I have people interested, for obvious reasons. >> -- >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Sun Oct 26 08:48:00 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2025 08:48:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: <2D227238-D4DF-41C3-9600-5FFA707A4208@gmail.com> References: <2D227238-D4DF-41C3-9600-5FFA707A4208@gmail.com> Message-ID: All Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues: 1. Improper system design 2. Wiring and installation mistakes Off-Grid Example A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass is cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the excess energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the stored energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter didn’t protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down with an overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large retrofitted AC coupled array. Grid-Tie Example In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by wiring mistakes, some common examples are: Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds Reversed hot/neutral at outlets A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked inverters must share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships precisely. Any mis-wiring can create circulating currents. That circulating energy is not accounted for in the inverter’s internal power calculations, so the DC-bus voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter shuts down for protection. A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s a system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using a non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection limitations. Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and utility requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) to full integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the utility to have full control over our systems! On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an insistent that > there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully off grid > system with no generator. > It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive to it. > > Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what I’ve > measured. > And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a > potential issue. > > Maybe someone can explain? > > Jay > > > > On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general consensus so > far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main disconnecting means > when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not technically a > separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made it very clear > that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter combiner / solar main > disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And being that NY is still > on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with the ambiguity in the code > I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in the main solar disconnect. > > In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of loads > in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is about > 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be able > to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to powering > the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the inverters. > The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am not sure > if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain all the > details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram here. The > second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. > > Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based on the > words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear about > it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it could > have anything to do with the DC side. > > Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved over > to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. This > also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond in > the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It > seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to > the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in > the solar main disconnect does not help. > > So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: > 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a > supply side connection? > 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had issues > with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G bond in > the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar main > disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this error > and found that it was caused by something else? > > Cheers, > Dave > > > > On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing >> service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect >> for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N >> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should >> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be >> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV >> service disconnect. >> >> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter >> enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >> >> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where the >> supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This creates >> a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble opinion. >> >> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The issue >> there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the backup >> load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as someone >> who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I say >> simple, but that can be hard to track down. >> >> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel, >> they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >> >> I think more information is needed. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan >>> Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion >>> may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my >>> opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where >>> the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >>> requirement >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side connection, >>>> you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar service >>>> disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up as a >>>> supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link Overvoltage >>>> error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to make sure that >>>> there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I mentioned that the >>>> solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond in both the main >>>> panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to remove it from the >>>> inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system work right, but I >>>> also am hesitant to do something against how I have understood the NEC to >>>> be for a long time. I am curious if you all have thoughts on this or run >>>> into a similar situation. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> [image: Logo] >>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>> p: he | him | his >>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>> >>>> >>>> | Ithaca, >>>> NY 14850 >>>> >>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Oct 26 09:58:31 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2025 09:58:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange Question: 1-Panel System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, I was thinking about using a "spare" Enphase IQ Gateway for this. We have a bunch of old Gateway 3 and 4 that we replaced with 5 to accommodate new battery installations. One of these used Gateways should suffice. I will try this with the Shelly suggestion that Glann made for long-term monitoring to make sure it keeps ticking. Thanks, all! Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 1:10 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > Just go with the enphase and just the EMU (Enlighten Monitor) not the > combiner box and let it fly, easy to add later on if so desired, I would > stay away from these off brand products, Ya I know enphase has its issues > too, BTW do you need a dedicated monitor, I have used one that i moved from > site to site instead, it was a little bit of a pain but helped > Fun times > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 10:44 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I love the idea of the Shelly for monitoring. That could be the solution. >> >> I can't do plug-in because I need to get a permit and inspection to get >> the interconnection agreement processed. >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025, 12:26 PM Glenn wrote: >> >>> Have you seen the ads for the new plug in the wall PV panels? Apparently >>> they are common in Europe and are working their way here. >>> >>> Do the new generation of microinverters require a gateway now? I have a >>> couple of panels running off m250s for years with no direct monitoring. I >>> do have a Sense monitor on my house and can see it's effect on my usage. >>> >>> If you can use a current micro without the gateway, a company called >>> Shelly sells inexpensive DIN rail power monitors with wifi and BT connection >>> >>> -Glenn >>> >>> On Oct 25, 2025 12:13, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Okay, this is going to be a strange question. I'm looking for the lowest >>> cost way to install a single solar panel and inverter that is grid tied. i >>> need it to be grid-tied and it needs to be monitored in some way. I'm >>> thinking a microinverter is the way to go, but I don't want to buy a $600 >>> Enphase Gateway to make it happen. >>> >>> Since someone is probably going to ask, I will go ahead and explain. A >>> local utility company has a top marginal residential energy use rate of >>> about 15 cents per kWh. The first and second 500 kWh monthly are billed at >>> a slightly lower rate. However, when you enter into a netmetering >>> agreement, the switch you to a "blended" rate, which is currently 9 cents >>> per kWh, regardless of what you net energy use ends up being. >>> >>> You might see where I'm going here. Installing a single netmetered panel >>> reduces a customer's marginal rate by 6 cents a kWh. This could be a >>> substantial savings, particularly for heavy energy users. >>> >>> I have people interested, for obvious reasons. >>> -- >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 23:41:15 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2025 23:41:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW+ and Midnite batteries Message-ID: Has anyone successfully close-looped a Schneider XW+ with Midnite PF16 batteries, or any other battery BMS that uses Pylon? I have a client that currently has an XW= running on a set of 2 volt Surrettes that are failing. I'd like to switch him out to an AIO/PF16 system, but want to give him the option of keeping the XW+ (which is paired with 2 Outback150vDC Charge Controllers). The mixed brand Inverter-Charge Controller setup gives me some pause if keeping that, but if necessary, I just want to hear success stories if they are out there. Thanks, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 08:23:11 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2025 06:23:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW+ and Midnite batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3D2EF18E-AB22-4E77-94D1-F9D09D619D80@gmail.com> I just had a conversation with someone about this the other day and he recommended buying an xw pro which he said has the latest firmware and can do lithium communication much easier than the older xw. I haven’t researched it but if true you can buy a new xw pro from NWS for under $900. Jay > On Oct 26, 2025, at 9:42 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Has anyone successfully close-looped a Schneider XW+ with Midnite PF16 batteries, or any other battery BMS that uses Pylon? I have a client that currently has an XW= running on a set of 2 volt Surrettes that are failing. I'd like to switch him out to an AIO/PF16 system, but want to give him the option of keeping the XW+ (which is paired with 2 Outback150vDC Charge Controllers). The mixed brand Inverter-Charge Controller setup gives me some pause if keeping that, but if necessary, I just want to hear success stories if they are out there. > Thanks, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Oct 27 12:35:40 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2025 16:35:40 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW+ and Midnite batteries In-Reply-To: <3D2EF18E-AB22-4E77-94D1-F9D09D619D80@gmail.com> References: <3D2EF18E-AB22-4E77-94D1-F9D09D619D80@gmail.com> Message-ID: A word of caution – the XW Pro is, IMO a major downgrade from any previous XW’s. The newest firmware causes all sorts of power quality issues if you are running a generator. Like it literally smoked electronics for some clients. Schneider knows, they just don’t care. There’s good reason these units are going cheap now to dump obsolete inventory. XW Lithium integration is through the Insight Home or Gateway monitoring devices. It can be done, but in my experience it’s constantly glitching out and not delivering reliable power solutions to clients. I generally recommend to clients if they want newest battery tech, let’s upgrade the inverter as well. Less call backs. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, October 27, 2025 5:23 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW+ and Midnite batteries I just had a conversation with someone about this the other day and he recommended buying an xw pro which he said has the latest firmware and can do lithium communication much easier than the older xw. I haven’t researched it but if true you can buy a new xw pro from NWS for under $900. Jay On Oct 26, 2025, at 9:42 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Has anyone successfully close-looped a Schneider XW+ with Midnite PF16 batteries, or any other battery BMS that uses Pylon? I have a client that currently has an XW= running on a set of 2 volt Surrettes that are failing. I'd like to switch him out to an AIO/PF16 system, but want to give him the option of keeping the XW+ (which is paired with 2 Outback150vDC Charge Controllers). The mixed brand Inverter-Charge Controller setup gives me some pause if keeping that, but if necessary, I just want to hear success stories if they are out there. Thanks, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Mon Oct 27 12:48:49 2025 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2025 16:48:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lead Calcium Batteries - Firmware Update? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Folks, I just did an equalization charge on my five year old Surret lead-calcium batteries in my stand-by system. I haven't had to add any water yet. I am wondering if I need to update the firmware or something, Thanks, Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Oct 27 17:04:25 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2025 14:04:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remotely triggered circuit breakers Message-ID: Friends: I am looking for a recommendation for circuit breakers that can be triggered remotely for load shedding. Does anyone have a recommendation? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon Oct 27 17:33:05 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2025 17:33:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remotely triggered circuit breakers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have you looked at Savant? They are basically relay modules which fit into standard breaker slots. You wire the breaker circuit through it. Remotely viewable to monitor the circuit and turn on off, etc. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Mon, Oct 27, 2025 at 5:08 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > I am looking for a recommendation for circuit breakers that can be > triggered remotely for load shedding. Does anyone have a recommendation? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Oct 27 18:37:57 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2025 15:37:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remotely triggered circuit breakers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William - Are you looking for smart breaker type functionality where the breaker or load center are connected to the internet, or do you just want a remotely controlled breaker? As Kirk mentioned, the Savant smart breakers might be a good choice. Schneider Square D makes Powerlink Remotely Operated CIrcuit Breakers, see page 13 of the catalog: https://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_Doc_Ref=0730CT9801&p_enDocType=Catalog&p_File_Name=0730CT9801.pdf Schneider also makes a smart breaker product (Square D Control Relays and the Schneider Energy Monitor) as seen here: https://solarbuildermag.com/news/schneider-electric-brings-smart-functions-to-standard-home-panels-with-square-d-control-relays/ We've used the Powerlink remotely operated breakers and they worked fine. We haven't tried the smart breaker products yet. August On Mon, Oct 27, 2025 at 2:33 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Have you looked at Savant? They are basically relay modules which fit into > standard breaker slots. You wire the breaker circuit through it. Remotely > viewable to monitor the circuit and turn on off, etc. > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2025 at 5:08 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> I am looking for a recommendation for circuit breakers that can be >> triggered remotely for load shedding. Does anyone have a recommendation? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Mon Oct 27 18:46:09 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2025 15:46:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW+ and Midnite batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've done an old XW4548 (pre XW+ and pro) with old style discover lithium batteries, open loop. Victron charge controllers on that one. It works fine after a little tinkering to get the voltages exactly correct for grid sell. And I have an off grid XW6848 with an Outback FM100 charge controller on the white wall mount Iron Edison lithium batteries. Only real issue with the XW inverters is that you cannot set the LVD low enough to be of any use with a 16 cell LFP. With a 15 cell LFP it would be possible... I had to add a separate load shed relay controlled by the aux of the FM100 on the off grid one to dump the loads when battery voltage got below 50 volts. I'd be hesitant to try to do closed loop with any Schneider equipment though, unless I had a lot of time to mess with it... I always felt that their hardware was bulletproof, but their software interface left a lot to be desired, especially the pro (that's when I stopped using Schneider). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 21:52:50 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2025 21:52:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW+ and Midnite batteries In-Reply-To: References: <3D2EF18E-AB22-4E77-94D1-F9D09D619D80@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Kevin, that is my distinct preference as well. But sometimes, if I can get them halfway there, it seems like an improvement and makes the next half step less painful for them. On a separate note, I have both XW+ and XWpro inverters in the field, and had not noticed the downgrade you mentioned, although I haven't made a study of it either. I have an MIT retired Physics Department head as one of my XWpro clients (dual stack) with 2 eVault Maxs. He has made a study of the programming and all the odd glitches and undocumented impacts of changing one part of the programming has on another seemingly unrelated area of the programming. He has been pushing the limits of the programming and often has to explain to Schneider level 2 tech support what he has done to make the inverter behave in a way that maximizes his self consumption. I guess my point is, he hasn't noticed the problems you referred to, so at this point, I most certainly haven't. Howie Howie Michaelson On Mon, Oct 27, 2025 at 12:38 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > A word of caution – the XW Pro is, IMO a major downgrade from any previous > XW’s. The newest firmware causes all sorts of power quality issues if you > are running a generator. Like it literally smoked electronics for some > clients. Schneider knows, they just don’t care. There’s good reason these > units are going cheap now to dump obsolete inventory. > > > > XW Lithium integration is through the Insight Home or Gateway monitoring > devices. It can be done, but in my experience it’s constantly glitching out > and not delivering reliable power solutions to clients. > > > > I generally recommend to clients if they want newest battery tech, let’s > upgrade the inverter as well. Less call backs. > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jay via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, October 27, 2025 5:23 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jay > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW+ and Midnite batteries > > > > I just had a conversation with someone about this the other day and he > recommended buying an xw pro which he said has the latest firmware and can > do lithium communication much easier than the older xw. > > > > I haven’t researched it but if true you can buy a new xw pro from NWS for > under $900. > > > > Jay > > > > On Oct 26, 2025, at 9:42 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Has anyone successfully close-looped a Schneider XW+ with Midnite PF16 > batteries, or any other battery BMS that uses Pylon? I have a client that > currently has an XW= running on a set of 2 volt Surrettes that are > failing. I'd like to switch him out to an AIO/PF16 system, but want to > give him the option of keeping the XW+ (which is paired with 2 > Outback150vDC Charge Controllers). The mixed brand Inverter-Charge > Controller setup gives me some pause if keeping that, but if necessary, I > just want to hear success stories if they are out there. > > Thanks, > > Howie Michaelson > > Sun Catcher > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 23:44:58 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2025 20:44:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remotely triggered circuit breakers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William There are shunt trip breakers available but needs to be reset to reconnect, why not use dry contactors, they are not special to a particular panel, we use them on water pumps, well controls, heaters, pools, hot tubs, anything, any 120 or 240 circuit can work. Fun times On Mon, Oct 27, 2025 at 2:05 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > I am looking for a recommendation for circuit breakers that can be > triggered remotely for load shedding. Does anyone have a recommendation? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Oct 28 00:00:38 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2025 21:00:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remotely triggered circuit breakers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jerry: Thank you. That was the conclusion I came to after doing some research. Most remotely activated breakers are activated by wifi and some energy management app. That’s not what I want. A contractor with the coil powered by the grid fed panel would do the job. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Mon, Oct 27, 2025 at 8:45 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > William > There are shunt trip breakers available but needs to be reset to > reconnect, why not use dry contactors, they are not special to a > particular panel, we use them on water pumps, well controls, > heaters, pools, hot tubs, anything, any 120 or 240 circuit can work. > Fun times > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2025 at 2:05 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> I am looking for a recommendation for circuit breakers that can be >> triggered remotely for load shedding. Does anyone have a recommendation? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Oct 28 06:51:55 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2025 06:51:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW+ and Midnite batteries In-Reply-To: References: <3D2EF18E-AB22-4E77-94D1-F9D09D619D80@gmail.com> Message-ID: My understanding is that Schneider is out of the off-grid solar business and the XW / Conext is discontinued. I am not supporting any LFP replacements on Schneider inverters. I would push for an inverter replacement with the battery replacement if switching from lead acid to LFP. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Mon, Oct 27, 2025 at 12:36 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > A word of caution – the XW Pro is, IMO a major downgrade from any previous > XW’s. The newest firmware causes all sorts of power quality issues if you > are running a generator. Like it literally smoked electronics for some > clients. Schneider knows, they just don’t care. There’s good reason these > units are going cheap now to dump obsolete inventory. > > > > XW Lithium integration is through the Insight Home or Gateway monitoring > devices. It can be done, but in my experience it’s constantly glitching out > and not delivering reliable power solutions to clients. > > > > I generally recommend to clients if they want newest battery tech, let’s > upgrade the inverter as well. Less call backs. > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jay via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, October 27, 2025 5:23 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jay > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW+ and Midnite batteries > > > > I just had a conversation with someone about this the other day and he > recommended buying an xw pro which he said has the latest firmware and can > do lithium communication much easier than the older xw. > > > > I haven’t researched it but if true you can buy a new xw pro from NWS for > under $900. > > > > Jay > > > > On Oct 26, 2025, at 9:42 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Has anyone successfully close-looped a Schneider XW+ with Midnite PF16 > batteries, or any other battery BMS that uses Pylon? I have a client that > currently has an XW= running on a set of 2 volt Surrettes that are > failing. I'd like to switch him out to an AIO/PF16 system, but want to > give him the option of keeping the XW+ (which is paired with 2 > Outback150vDC Charge Controllers). The mixed brand Inverter-Charge > Controller setup gives me some pause if keeping that, but if necessary, I > just want to hear success stories if they are out there. > > Thanks, > > Howie Michaelson > > Sun Catcher > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Oct 28 13:06:47 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2025 10:06:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW+ and Midnite batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just about impossible with XW+ ! No brains for that! Need the pro and a good software person to close the loop. Schneider lists what to do in one of their manuals for xwp. Buenas Suerte! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-10-26 8:41 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Has anyone successfully close-looped a Schneider XW+ with Midnite PF16 > batteries, or any other battery BMS that uses Pylon? I have a client > that currently has an XW= running on a set of 2 volt Surrettes that are > failing. I'd like to switch him out to an AIO/PF16 system, but want to > give him the option of keeping the XW+ (which is paired with 2 > Outback150vDC Charge Controllers). The mixed brand Inverter-Charge > Controller setup gives me some pause if keeping that, but if necessary, > I just want to hear success stories if they are out there. > Thanks, > > Howie Michaelson > > Sun Catcher > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Oct 29 09:41:16 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2025 09:41:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: <2D227238-D4DF-41C3-9600-5FFA707A4208@gmail.com> Message-ID: William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the technical perspective. I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G bond in the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for other N-G connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a CA-DC link overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. It is not as bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is that in the late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable amount of solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), while the other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of the battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals connected to ground on the backed up loads side? Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the impression that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount of power that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that limits you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the system that much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can go to powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid power" in the Power Control settings. Cheers, Dave On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > All > > Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated > high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise > higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may > only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing > (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, > these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. > > A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues: > > 1. > > Improper system design > 2. > > Wiring and installation mistakes > > Off-Grid Example > > A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass is > cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). > When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the excess > energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the stored > energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter didn’t > protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down with an > overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large retrofitted AC > coupled array. > Grid-Tie Example > > In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by wiring > mistakes, some common examples are: > > Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds > > Reversed hot/neutral at outlets > > A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked inverters must > share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships precisely. Any mis-wiring > can create circulating currents. That circulating energy is not accounted > for in the inverter’s internal power calculations, so the DC-bus voltage > rises unexpectedly — and the inverter shuts down for protection. > > A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s a > system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper > neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and > proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. > > This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using a > non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection > limitations. > > Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and utility > requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) to full > integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the utility to > have full control over our systems! > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an insistent that >> there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully off grid >> system with no generator. >> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive to >> it. >> >> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what I’ve >> measured. >> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a >> potential issue. >> >> Maybe someone can explain? >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general consensus so >> far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main disconnecting means >> when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not technically a >> separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made it very clear >> that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter combiner / solar main >> disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And being that NY is still >> on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with the ambiguity in the code >> I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in the main solar disconnect. >> >> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of loads >> in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is about >> 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be able >> to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to powering >> the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the inverters. >> The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am not sure >> if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain all the >> details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram here. The >> second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >> >> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based on >> the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear >> about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it >> could have anything to do with the DC side. >> >> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved over >> to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. This >> also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond in >> the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It >> seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to >> the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in >> the solar main disconnect does not help. >> >> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: >> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a >> supply side connection? >> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had >> issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G >> bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar >> main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this >> error and found that it was caused by something else? >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing >>> service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect >>> for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N >>> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should >>> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be >>> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV >>> service disconnect. >>> >>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter >>> enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>> >>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where >>> the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This >>> creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble >>> opinion. >>> >>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The issue >>> there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the backup >>> load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as someone >>> who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I say >>> simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>> >>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel, >>> they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>> >>> I think more information is needed. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan >>>> Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion >>>> may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my >>>> opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where >>>> the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >>>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >>>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >>>> requirement >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side connection, >>>>> you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar service >>>>> disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up as a >>>>> supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link Overvoltage >>>>> error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to make sure that >>>>> there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I mentioned that the >>>>> solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond in both the main >>>>> panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to remove it from the >>>>> inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system work right, but I >>>>> also am hesitant to do something against how I have understood the NEC to >>>>> be for a long time. I am curious if you all have thoughts on this or run >>>>> into a similar situation. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> | Ithaca, >>>>> NY 14850 >>>>> >>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 10:42:00 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2025 08:42:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F6A7122-E699-4F41-A942-3748EB0C7B40@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Oct 29 10:58:15 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2025 10:58:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: <8F6A7122-E699-4F41-A942-3748EB0C7B40@gmail.com> References: <8F6A7122-E699-4F41-A942-3748EB0C7B40@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, It is a grid tied system, and I am seeing this behavior while the grid is present. I have not been able to take a closer look to see if this happens during a grid outage. I am not even sure there has been a long enough outage yet as these systems are fairly new. And to be clear, these systems are generally working as expected. Even though this strange circulating current seems to happen many days, each system has only thrown the CA-DC link overvoltage error once. Cheers, Dave On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 10:43 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > These issues described here is this for both on and off grid? > > Jay > > On Oct 29, 2025, at 7:41 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the technical > perspective. > > I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are > exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to > wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things > that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to > each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the > battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a > bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to > have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same > length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. > > Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G bond in > the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for other N-G > connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a CA-DC link > overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. It is not as > bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is that in the > late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable amount of > solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), while the > other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of the > battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very > quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. > Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G > connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the > same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals > connected to ground on the backed up loads side? > > Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the impression > that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount of power > that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that limits > you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the system that > much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can go to > powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is > pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid > power" in the Power Control settings. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> All >> >> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated >> high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise >> higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may >> only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing >> (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, >> these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. >> >> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues: >> >> 1. >> >> Improper system design >> 2. >> >> Wiring and installation mistakes >> >> Off-Grid Example >> >> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass is >> cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). >> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the excess >> energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the stored >> energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter didn’t >> protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down with an >> overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large retrofitted AC >> coupled array. >> Grid-Tie Example >> >> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by wiring >> mistakes, some common examples are: >> >> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds >> >> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets >> >> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked inverters must >> share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships precisely. Any mis-wiring >> can create circulating currents. That circulating energy is not >> accounted for in the inverter’s internal power calculations, so the DC-bus >> voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter shuts down for protection. >> >> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s a >> system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper >> neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and >> proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. >> >> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using a >> non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection >> limitations. >> >> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and utility >> requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) to full >> integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the utility to >> have full control over our systems! >> >> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an insistent >>> that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully off grid >>> system with no generator. >>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive to >>> it. >>> >>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what I’ve >>> measured. >>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a >>> potential issue. >>> >>> Maybe someone can explain? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general consensus >>> so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main disconnecting >>> means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not technically a >>> separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made it very clear >>> that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter combiner / solar main >>> disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And being that NY is still >>> on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with the ambiguity in the code >>> I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in the main solar disconnect. >>> >>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of >>> loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is >>> about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be >>> able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to >>> powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the >>> inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am >>> not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain >>> all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram >>> here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >>> >>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based on >>> the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear >>> about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it >>> could have anything to do with the DC side. >>> >>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved >>> over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. >>> This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond >>> in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It >>> seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to >>> the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in >>> the solar main disconnect does not help. >>> >>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: >>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a >>> supply side connection? >>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had >>> issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G >>> bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar >>> main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this >>> error and found that it was caused by something else? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing >>>> service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect >>>> for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N >>>> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should >>>> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be >>>> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV >>>> service disconnect. >>>> >>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter >>>> enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>>> >>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where >>>> the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This >>>> creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble >>>> opinion. >>>> >>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The issue >>>> there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the backup >>>> load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as someone >>>> who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I say >>>> simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>>> >>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel, >>>> they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>>> >>>> I think more information is needed. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan >>>>> Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion >>>>> may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my >>>>> opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where >>>>> the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >>>>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >>>>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >>>>> requirement >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> >>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side connection, >>>>>> you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar service >>>>>> disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up as a >>>>>> supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link Overvoltage >>>>>> error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to make sure that >>>>>> there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I mentioned that the >>>>>> solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond in both the main >>>>>> panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to remove it from the >>>>>> inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system work right, but I >>>>>> also am hesitant to do something against how I have understood the NEC to >>>>>> be for a long time. I am curious if you all have thoughts on this or run >>>>>> into a similar situation. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Dave >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> | Ithaca, >>>>>> NY 14850 >>>>>> >>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 12:18:28 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2025 10:18:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: <8F6A7122-E699-4F41-A942-3748EB0C7B40@gmail.com> Message-ID: <165C8591-F07D-4CD1-88FA-C9C1EC93D66D@gmail.com> It seems like the inverters are not actually communicating for them to be so far off from each other. jay > On Oct 29, 2025, at 8:58 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jay, > It is a grid tied system, and I am seeing this behavior while the grid is present. I have not been able to take a closer look to see if this happens during a grid outage. I am not even sure there has been a long enough outage yet as these systems are fairly new. > > And to be clear, these systems are generally working as expected. Even though this strange circulating current seems to happen many days, each system has only thrown the CA-DC link overvoltage error once. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 10:43 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> These issues described here is this for both on and off grid? >> >> Jay >> >>> On Oct 29, 2025, at 7:41 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the technical perspective. >>> >>> I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. >>> >>> Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G bond in the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for other N-G connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a CA-DC link overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. It is not as bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is that in the late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable amount of solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), while the other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of the battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. >>> Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals connected to ground on the backed up loads side? >>> >>> Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the impression that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount of power that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that limits you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the system that much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can go to powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid power" in the Power Control settings. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> All >>>> >>>> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. >>>> >>>> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues: >>>> >>>> Improper system design >>>> >>>> Wiring and installation mistakes >>>> >>>> Off-Grid Example >>>> >>>> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass is cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). >>>> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the excess energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the stored energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter didn’t protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down with an overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large retrofitted AC coupled array. >>>> >>>> Grid-Tie Example >>>> >>>> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by wiring mistakes, some common examples are: >>>> >>>> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds >>>> >>>> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets >>>> >>>> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked inverters must share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships precisely. Any mis-wiring can create circulating currents. That circulating energy is not accounted for in the inverter’s internal power calculations, so the DC-bus voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter shuts down for protection. >>>> >>>> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s a system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. >>>> >>>> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using a non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection limitations. >>>> >>>> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and utility requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) to full integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the utility to have full control over our systems! >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an insistent that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully off grid system with no generator. >>>>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive to it. >>>>> >>>>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what I’ve measured. >>>>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a potential issue. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe someone can explain? >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general consensus so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main disconnecting means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not technically a separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made it very clear that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter combiner / solar main disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And being that NY is still on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with the ambiguity in the code I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in the main solar disconnect. >>>>>> >>>>>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based on the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it could have anything to do with the DC side. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in the solar main disconnect does not help. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: >>>>>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a supply side connection? >>>>>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this error and found that it was caused by something else? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Dave >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV service disconnect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble opinion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The issue there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the backup load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as someone who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I say simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel, they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think more information is needed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>>>>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC requirement >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd.   | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>>>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>>>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 12:27:26 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2025 09:27:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: <165C8591-F07D-4CD1-88FA-C9C1EC93D66D@gmail.com> References: <8F6A7122-E699-4F41-A942-3748EB0C7B40@gmail.com> <165C8591-F07D-4CD1-88FA-C9C1EC93D66D@gmail.com> Message-ID: One consideration that I've found to be valuable is ensuring the parallel comm cables(inverters and batteries) are equal length. This may even potentially be a more important consideration than AC lines being equal length. On Wed, Oct 29, 2025, 9:19 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > It seems like the inverters are not actually communicating for them to be > so far off from each other. > > jay > > On Oct 29, 2025, at 8:58 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jay, > It is a grid tied system, and I am seeing this behavior while the grid is > present. I have not been able to take a closer look to see if this happens > during a grid outage. I am not even sure there has been a long enough > outage yet as these systems are fairly new. > > And to be clear, these systems are generally working as expected. Even > though this strange circulating current seems to happen many days, each > system has only thrown the CA-DC link overvoltage error once. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 10:43 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> These issues described here is this for both on and off grid? >> >> Jay >> >> On Oct 29, 2025, at 7:41 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the technical >> perspective. >> >> I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are >> exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to >> wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things >> that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to >> each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the >> battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a >> bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to >> have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same >> length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. >> >> Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G bond in >> the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for other N-G >> connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a CA-DC link >> overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. It is not as >> bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is that in the >> late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable amount of >> solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), while the >> other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of the >> battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very >> quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. >> Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G >> connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the >> same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals >> connected to ground on the backed up loads side? >> >> Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the impression >> that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount of power >> that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that limits >> you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the system that >> much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can go to >> powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is >> pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid >> power" in the Power Control settings. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> All >>> >>> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated >>> high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise >>> higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may >>> only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing >>> (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, >>> these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. >>> >>> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues: >>> >>> 1. >>> >>> Improper system design >>> 2. >>> >>> Wiring and installation mistakes >>> >>> Off-Grid Example >>> >>> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass is >>> cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). >>> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the excess >>> energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the stored >>> energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter didn’t >>> protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down with an >>> overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large retrofitted AC >>> coupled array. >>> Grid-Tie Example >>> >>> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by wiring >>> mistakes, some common examples are: >>> >>> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds >>> >>> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets >>> >>> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked inverters must >>> share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships precisely. Any mis-wiring >>> can create circulating currents. That circulating energy is not >>> accounted for in the inverter’s internal power calculations, so the DC-bus >>> voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter shuts down for protection. >>> >>> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s a >>> system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper >>> neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and >>> proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. >>> >>> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using a >>> non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection >>> limitations. >>> >>> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and >>> utility requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) >>> to full integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the >>> utility to have full control over our systems! >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an insistent >>>> that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully off grid >>>> system with no generator. >>>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive to >>>> it. >>>> >>>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what I’ve >>>> measured. >>>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a >>>> potential issue. >>>> >>>> Maybe someone can explain? >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general consensus >>>> so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main disconnecting >>>> means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not technically a >>>> separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made it very clear >>>> that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter combiner / solar main >>>> disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And being that NY is still >>>> on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with the ambiguity in the code >>>> I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in the main solar disconnect. >>>> >>>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of >>>> loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is >>>> about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be >>>> able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to >>>> powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the >>>> inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am >>>> not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain >>>> all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram >>>> here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >>>> >>>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based on >>>> the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear >>>> about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it >>>> could have anything to do with the DC side. >>>> >>>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved >>>> over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. >>>> This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond >>>> in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It >>>> seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to >>>> the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in >>>> the solar main disconnect does not help. >>>> >>>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: >>>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a >>>> supply side connection? >>>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had >>>> issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G >>>> bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar >>>> main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this >>>> error and found that it was caused by something else? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing >>>>> service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect >>>>> for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N >>>>> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should >>>>> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be >>>>> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV >>>>> service disconnect. >>>>> >>>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter >>>>> enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>>>> >>>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where >>>>> the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This >>>>> creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble >>>>> opinion. >>>>> >>>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The issue >>>>> there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the backup >>>>> load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as someone >>>>> who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I say >>>>> simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>>>> >>>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel, >>>>> they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>>>> >>>>> I think more information is needed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan >>>>>> Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion >>>>>> may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my >>>>>> opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where >>>>>> the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >>>>>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >>>>>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >>>>>> requirement >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side >>>>>>> connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar >>>>>>> service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up >>>>>>> as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link >>>>>>> Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to >>>>>>> make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I >>>>>>> mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond >>>>>>> in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to >>>>>>> remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system >>>>>>> work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have >>>>>>> understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have >>>>>>> thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> | Ithaca, >>>>>>> NY 14850 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Wed Oct 29 12:34:53 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2025 12:34:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: <2D227238-D4DF-41C3-9600-5FFA707A4208@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave The AC wires need to be the same size and try to have the same length. This is important because the inverter when stacked "shares" the power so you want to try to prevent any imbalance in voltage and resistance issues, or circle issues. In older stacked systems you have a master and a slave and when the power demand increases then the slave would take the excess. On AIO's the power is shared equally all the time (this is a good thing as you don't get the flicker as the slave picks up). It is important that the install takes into account the different way the power is used and delivered. Have a clean install, with the correct sized conductors as specified by the manufacturer, and try to keep the wire run short and equal when connecting the inverter AC runs together. On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 9:41 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the technical > perspective. > > I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are > exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to > wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things > that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to > each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the > battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a > bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to > have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same > length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. > > Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G bond in > the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for other N-G > connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a CA-DC link > overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. It is not as > bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is that in the > late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable amount of > solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), while the > other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of the > battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very > quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. > Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G > connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the > same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals > connected to ground on the backed up loads side? > > Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the impression > that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount of power > that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that limits > you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the system that > much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can go to > powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is > pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid > power" in the Power Control settings. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> All >> >> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated >> high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise >> higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may >> only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing >> (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, >> these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. >> >> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues: >> >> 1. >> >> Improper system design >> 2. >> >> Wiring and installation mistakes >> >> Off-Grid Example >> >> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass is >> cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). >> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the excess >> energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the stored >> energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter didn’t >> protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down with an >> overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large retrofitted AC >> coupled array. >> Grid-Tie Example >> >> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by wiring >> mistakes, some common examples are: >> >> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds >> >> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets >> >> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked inverters must >> share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships precisely. Any mis-wiring >> can create circulating currents. That circulating energy is not >> accounted for in the inverter’s internal power calculations, so the DC-bus >> voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter shuts down for protection. >> >> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s a >> system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper >> neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and >> proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. >> >> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using a >> non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection >> limitations. >> >> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and utility >> requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) to full >> integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the utility to >> have full control over our systems! >> >> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an insistent >>> that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully off grid >>> system with no generator. >>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive to >>> it. >>> >>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what I’ve >>> measured. >>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a >>> potential issue. >>> >>> Maybe someone can explain? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general consensus >>> so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main disconnecting >>> means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not technically a >>> separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made it very clear >>> that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter combiner / solar main >>> disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And being that NY is still >>> on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with the ambiguity in the code >>> I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in the main solar disconnect. >>> >>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of >>> loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is >>> about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be >>> able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to >>> powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the >>> inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am >>> not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain >>> all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram >>> here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >>> >>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based on >>> the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear >>> about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it >>> could have anything to do with the DC side. >>> >>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved >>> over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. >>> This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond >>> in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It >>> seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to >>> the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in >>> the solar main disconnect does not help. >>> >>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: >>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a >>> supply side connection? >>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had >>> issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G >>> bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar >>> main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this >>> error and found that it was caused by something else? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing >>>> service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect >>>> for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N >>>> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should >>>> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be >>>> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV >>>> service disconnect. >>>> >>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter >>>> enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>>> >>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where >>>> the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This >>>> creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble >>>> opinion. >>>> >>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The issue >>>> there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the backup >>>> load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as someone >>>> who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I say >>>> simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>>> >>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel, >>>> they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>>> >>>> I think more information is needed. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan >>>>> Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion >>>>> may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my >>>>> opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where >>>>> the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >>>>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >>>>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >>>>> requirement >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> >>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side connection, >>>>>> you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar service >>>>>> disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up as a >>>>>> supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link Overvoltage >>>>>> error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to make sure that >>>>>> there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I mentioned that the >>>>>> solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond in both the main >>>>>> panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to remove it from the >>>>>> inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system work right, but I >>>>>> also am hesitant to do something against how I have understood the NEC to >>>>>> be for a long time. I am curious if you all have thoughts on this or run >>>>>> into a similar situation. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Dave >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> | Ithaca, >>>>>> NY 14850 >>>>>> >>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 12:54:01 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2025 09:54:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: <2D227238-D4DF-41C3-9600-5FFA707A4208@gmail.com> Message-ID: As someone who has installed several of these systems I absolutely second Logan's recommendations and deferred to manufacturer's best practices and logic. This hasn't necessarily been easy for me to accept as old habits die hard and there are things I wish I would've understood from the beginning but my feeling is that their goal is to have these systems work as well as possible rather than send us installers chasing ghosts. My advice is ask when in doubt and follow the advice given even when it hasn't necessarily been made clear from start. For me this has been an expensive lesson but largely has solved any issues I've encountered. Hardware wise these inverters are an exceptional answer to many of the issues with other all-in-one inverters and the software is continually improving. These discussions definitely help to refine and develop the product and installer understanding. I also recommend reaching out to MNP for their training webinars and application notes as they definitely help to clarify and build on the early versions of the installer manual. Best of luck and I am always happy to share my experiences if it can be of any help. On Wed, Oct 29, 2025, 9:36 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Dave > > The AC wires need to be the same size and try to have the same length. > This is important because the inverter when stacked "shares" the power so > you want to try to prevent any imbalance in voltage and resistance > issues, or circle issues. > > In older stacked systems you have a master and a slave and when the power > demand increases then the slave would take the excess. On AIO's the power > is shared equally all the time (this is a good thing as you don't get the > flicker as the slave picks up). It is important that the install takes into > account the different way the power is used and delivered. Have a clean > install, with the correct sized conductors as specified by the > manufacturer, and try to keep the wire run short and equal when connecting > the inverter AC runs together. > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 9:41 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the technical >> perspective. >> >> I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are >> exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to >> wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things >> that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to >> each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the >> battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a >> bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to >> have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same >> length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. >> >> Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G bond in >> the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for other N-G >> connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a CA-DC link >> overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. It is not as >> bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is that in the >> late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable amount of >> solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), while the >> other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of the >> battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very >> quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. >> Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G >> connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the >> same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals >> connected to ground on the backed up loads side? >> >> Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the impression >> that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount of power >> that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that limits >> you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the system that >> much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can go to >> powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is >> pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid >> power" in the Power Control settings. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> All >>> >>> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated >>> high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise >>> higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may >>> only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing >>> (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, >>> these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. >>> >>> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues: >>> >>> 1. >>> >>> Improper system design >>> 2. >>> >>> Wiring and installation mistakes >>> >>> Off-Grid Example >>> >>> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass is >>> cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). >>> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the excess >>> energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the stored >>> energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter didn’t >>> protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down with an >>> overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large retrofitted AC >>> coupled array. >>> Grid-Tie Example >>> >>> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by wiring >>> mistakes, some common examples are: >>> >>> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds >>> >>> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets >>> >>> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked inverters must >>> share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships precisely. Any mis-wiring >>> can create circulating currents. That circulating energy is not >>> accounted for in the inverter’s internal power calculations, so the DC-bus >>> voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter shuts down for protection. >>> >>> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s a >>> system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper >>> neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and >>> proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. >>> >>> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using a >>> non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection >>> limitations. >>> >>> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and >>> utility requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) >>> to full integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the >>> utility to have full control over our systems! >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an insistent >>>> that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully off grid >>>> system with no generator. >>>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive to >>>> it. >>>> >>>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what I’ve >>>> measured. >>>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a >>>> potential issue. >>>> >>>> Maybe someone can explain? >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general consensus >>>> so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main disconnecting >>>> means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not technically a >>>> separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made it very clear >>>> that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter combiner / solar main >>>> disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And being that NY is still >>>> on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with the ambiguity in the code >>>> I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in the main solar disconnect. >>>> >>>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of >>>> loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is >>>> about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be >>>> able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to >>>> powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the >>>> inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am >>>> not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain >>>> all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram >>>> here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >>>> >>>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based on >>>> the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear >>>> about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it >>>> could have anything to do with the DC side. >>>> >>>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved >>>> over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. >>>> This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond >>>> in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It >>>> seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to >>>> the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in >>>> the solar main disconnect does not help. >>>> >>>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: >>>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a >>>> supply side connection? >>>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had >>>> issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G >>>> bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar >>>> main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this >>>> error and found that it was caused by something else? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing >>>>> service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect >>>>> for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N >>>>> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should >>>>> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be >>>>> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV >>>>> service disconnect. >>>>> >>>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter >>>>> enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>>>> >>>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where >>>>> the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This >>>>> creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble >>>>> opinion. >>>>> >>>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The issue >>>>> there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the backup >>>>> load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as someone >>>>> who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I say >>>>> simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>>>> >>>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel, >>>>> they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>>>> >>>>> I think more information is needed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan >>>>>> Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion >>>>>> may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my >>>>>> opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where >>>>>> the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >>>>>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >>>>>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >>>>>> requirement >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side >>>>>>> connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar >>>>>>> service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up >>>>>>> as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link >>>>>>> Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to >>>>>>> make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I >>>>>>> mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond >>>>>>> in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to >>>>>>> remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system >>>>>>> work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have >>>>>>> understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have >>>>>>> thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> | Ithaca, >>>>>>> NY 14850 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>>> c: >>>>>>> (607) >>>>>>> 270-0370 >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 13:04:09 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2025 11:04:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: <2D227238-D4DF-41C3-9600-5FFA707A4208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8F2DB0BF-2DFE-4A39-9805-676CBADD4355@gmail.com> HI William This is for both on and off grid correct? jay > On Oct 29, 2025, at 10:34 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Dave > > The AC wires need to be the same size and try to have the same length. This is important because the inverter when stacked "shares" the power so you want to try to prevent any imbalance in voltage and resistance issues, or circle issues. > > In older stacked systems you have a master and a slave and when the power demand increases then the slave would take the excess. On AIO's the power is shared equally all the time (this is a good thing as you don't get the flicker as the slave picks up). It is important that the install takes into account the different way the power is used and delivered. Have a clean install, with the correct sized conductors as specified by the manufacturer, and try to keep the wire run short and equal when connecting the inverter AC runs together. > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 9:41 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the technical perspective. >> >> I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. >> >> Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G bond in the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for other N-G connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a CA-DC link overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. It is not as bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is that in the late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable amount of solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), while the other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of the battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. >> Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals connected to ground on the backed up loads side? >> >> Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the impression that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount of power that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that limits you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the system that much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can go to powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid power" in the Power Control settings. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> All >>> >>> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. >>> >>> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues: >>> >>> Improper system design >>> >>> Wiring and installation mistakes >>> >>> Off-Grid Example >>> >>> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass is cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). >>> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the excess energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the stored energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter didn’t protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down with an overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large retrofitted AC coupled array. >>> >>> Grid-Tie Example >>> >>> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by wiring mistakes, some common examples are: >>> >>> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds >>> >>> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets >>> >>> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked inverters must share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships precisely. Any mis-wiring can create circulating currents. That circulating energy is not accounted for in the inverter’s internal power calculations, so the DC-bus voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter shuts down for protection. >>> >>> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s a system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. >>> >>> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using a non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection limitations. >>> >>> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and utility requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) to full integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the utility to have full control over our systems! >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an insistent that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully off grid system with no generator. >>>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive to it. >>>> >>>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what I’ve measured. >>>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a potential issue. >>>> >>>> Maybe someone can explain? >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general consensus so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main disconnecting means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not technically a separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made it very clear that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter combiner / solar main disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And being that NY is still on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with the ambiguity in the code I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in the main solar disconnect. >>>>> >>>>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >>>>> >>>>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based on the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it could have anything to do with the DC side. >>>>> >>>>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in the solar main disconnect does not help. >>>>> >>>>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: >>>>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a supply side connection? >>>>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this error and found that it was caused by something else? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV service disconnect. >>>>>> >>>>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble opinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The issue there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the backup load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as someone who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I say simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>>>>> >>>>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel, they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think more information is needed. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>>>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC requirement >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd.   | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Wed Oct 29 13:21:13 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2025 13:21:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: <8F2DB0BF-2DFE-4A39-9805-676CBADD4355@gmail.com> References: <2D227238-D4DF-41C3-9600-5FFA707A4208@gmail.com> <8F2DB0BF-2DFE-4A39-9805-676CBADD4355@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay The install principles are for both on and off grid. When on grid you have increased issues with current circles, and imbalanced voltage issues from bad wiring practices. On off grid it is current issues, when the installer goes cheap with smaller wire, AU wire and states "the Load is only XX Kw" so I do not need a #2AWG wire on the output". We know that is never true, and the customer will always increase loads or underestimate loads. The inverter also has a large surge capacity, So the inverter will starve for Amps when needed on the DC side, and have a high resistance on the AC side. When you follow the recommended wire sizes in the manual, the errors go to almost zero, unless you have N to G bonds all over the place. That is another issue altogether, that has been talked about. In the end, AIO inverters are different from what us older guys are used to. Before we could get away with all types of shortcuts when the box was full of heavy copper and only made AC power. AIO's are really complex, and the little things in the install matter. The New RULES are making it even harder ESS, PCS, ECT... More rules, more code, more issues. On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 1:04 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI William > > This is for both on and off grid correct? > jay > > On Oct 29, 2025, at 10:34 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Dave > > The AC wires need to be the same size and try to have the same length. > This is important because the inverter when stacked "shares" the power so > you want to try to prevent any imbalance in voltage and resistance > issues, or circle issues. > > In older stacked systems you have a master and a slave and when the power > demand increases then the slave would take the excess. On AIO's the power > is shared equally all the time (this is a good thing as you don't get the > flicker as the slave picks up). It is important that the install takes into > account the different way the power is used and delivered. Have a clean > install, with the correct sized conductors as specified by the > manufacturer, and try to keep the wire run short and equal when connecting > the inverter AC runs together. > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 9:41 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the technical >> perspective. >> >> I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are >> exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to >> wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things >> that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to >> each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the >> battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a >> bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to >> have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same >> length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. >> >> Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G bond in >> the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for other N-G >> connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a CA-DC link >> overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. It is not as >> bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is that in the >> late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable amount of >> solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), while the >> other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of the >> battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very >> quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. >> Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G >> connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the >> same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals >> connected to ground on the backed up loads side? >> >> Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the impression >> that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount of power >> that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that limits >> you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the system that >> much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can go to >> powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is >> pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid >> power" in the Power Control settings. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> All >>> >>> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated >>> high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise >>> higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may >>> only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing >>> (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, >>> these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. >>> >>> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues: >>> >>> 1. >>> >>> Improper system design >>> 2. >>> >>> Wiring and installation mistakes >>> >>> Off-Grid Example >>> >>> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass is >>> cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). >>> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the excess >>> energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the stored >>> energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter didn’t >>> protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down with an >>> overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large retrofitted AC >>> coupled array. >>> Grid-Tie Example >>> >>> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by wiring >>> mistakes, some common examples are: >>> >>> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds >>> >>> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets >>> >>> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked inverters must >>> share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships precisely. Any mis-wiring >>> can create circulating currents. That circulating energy is not >>> accounted for in the inverter’s internal power calculations, so the DC-bus >>> voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter shuts down for protection. >>> >>> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s a >>> system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper >>> neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and >>> proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. >>> >>> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using a >>> non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection >>> limitations. >>> >>> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and >>> utility requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) >>> to full integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the >>> utility to have full control over our systems! >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an insistent >>>> that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully off grid >>>> system with no generator. >>>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive to >>>> it. >>>> >>>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what I’ve >>>> measured. >>>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a >>>> potential issue. >>>> >>>> Maybe someone can explain? >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general consensus >>>> so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main disconnecting >>>> means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not technically a >>>> separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made it very clear >>>> that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter combiner / solar main >>>> disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And being that NY is still >>>> on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with the ambiguity in the code >>>> I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in the main solar disconnect. >>>> >>>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of >>>> loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is >>>> about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be >>>> able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to >>>> powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the >>>> inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am >>>> not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain >>>> all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram >>>> here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >>>> >>>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based on >>>> the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear >>>> about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it >>>> could have anything to do with the DC side. >>>> >>>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved >>>> over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. >>>> This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond >>>> in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It >>>> seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to >>>> the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in >>>> the solar main disconnect does not help. >>>> >>>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: >>>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a >>>> supply side connection? >>>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had >>>> issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G >>>> bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar >>>> main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this >>>> error and found that it was caused by something else? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing >>>>> service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect >>>>> for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N >>>>> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should >>>>> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be >>>>> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV >>>>> service disconnect. >>>>> >>>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter >>>>> enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>>>> >>>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where >>>>> the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This >>>>> creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble >>>>> opinion. >>>>> >>>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The issue >>>>> there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the backup >>>>> load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as someone >>>>> who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I say >>>>> simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>>>> >>>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel, >>>>> they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>>>> >>>>> I think more information is needed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan >>>>>> Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion >>>>>> may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my >>>>>> opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where >>>>>> the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >>>>>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >>>>>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >>>>>> requirement >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side >>>>>>> connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar >>>>>>> service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up >>>>>>> as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link >>>>>>> Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to >>>>>>> make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I >>>>>>> mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond >>>>>>> in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to >>>>>>> remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system >>>>>>> work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have >>>>>>> understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have >>>>>>> thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> | Ithaca, >>>>>>> NY 14850 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Oct 29 16:00:12 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2025 16:00:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: <2D227238-D4DF-41C3-9600-5FFA707A4208@gmail.com> <8F2DB0BF-2DFE-4A39-9805-676CBADD4355@gmail.com> Message-ID: This question may have gotten buried earlier. But do you know when looking for inadvertent neutral to ground connections whether you only need to look at the backed up loads, or do you need to look at all the loads in the house? Thanks, Dave On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 1:29 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jay > > The install principles are for both on and off grid. When on grid you have > increased issues with current circles, and imbalanced voltage issues from > bad wiring practices. > On off grid it is current issues, when the installer goes cheap with > smaller wire, AU wire and states "the Load is only XX Kw" so I do not need > a #2AWG wire on the output". > We know that is never true, and the customer will always increase loads or > underestimate loads. The inverter also has a large surge capacity, So the > inverter will starve for Amps when needed on the DC side, and have a high > resistance on the AC side. > > When you follow the recommended wire sizes in the manual, the errors go to > almost zero, unless you have N to G bonds all over the place. That is > another issue altogether, that has been talked about. > > In the end, AIO inverters are different from what us older guys are used > to. Before we could get away with all types of shortcuts when the box was > full of heavy copper and only made AC power. AIO's are really complex, and > the little things in the install matter. The New RULES are making it even > harder ESS, PCS, ECT... More rules, more code, more issues. > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 1:04 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> HI William >> >> This is for both on and off grid correct? >> jay >> >> On Oct 29, 2025, at 10:34 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Dave >> >> The AC wires need to be the same size and try to have the same length. >> This is important because the inverter when stacked "shares" the power so >> you want to try to prevent any imbalance in voltage and resistance >> issues, or circle issues. >> >> In older stacked systems you have a master and a slave and when the power >> demand increases then the slave would take the excess. On AIO's the power >> is shared equally all the time (this is a good thing as you don't get the >> flicker as the slave picks up). It is important that the install takes into >> account the different way the power is used and delivered. Have a clean >> install, with the correct sized conductors as specified by the >> manufacturer, and try to keep the wire run short and equal when connecting >> the inverter AC runs together. >> >> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 9:41 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the >>> technical perspective. >>> >>> I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are >>> exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to >>> wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things >>> that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to >>> each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the >>> battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a >>> bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to >>> have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same >>> length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. >>> >>> Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G bond in >>> the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for other N-G >>> connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a CA-DC link >>> overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. It is not as >>> bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is that in the >>> late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable amount of >>> solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), while the >>> other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of the >>> battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very >>> quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. >>> Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G >>> connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the >>> same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals >>> connected to ground on the backed up loads side? >>> >>> Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the impression >>> that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount of power >>> that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that limits >>> you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the system that >>> much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can go to >>> powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is >>> pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid >>> power" in the Power Control settings. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> All >>>> >>>> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated >>>> high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise >>>> higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may >>>> only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing >>>> (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, >>>> these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. >>>> >>>> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues: >>>> >>>> 1. >>>> >>>> Improper system design >>>> 2. >>>> >>>> Wiring and installation mistakes >>>> >>>> Off-Grid Example >>>> >>>> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass is >>>> cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). >>>> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the >>>> excess energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the >>>> stored energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter >>>> didn’t protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down >>>> with an overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large >>>> retrofitted AC coupled array. >>>> Grid-Tie Example >>>> >>>> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by wiring >>>> mistakes, some common examples are: >>>> >>>> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds >>>> >>>> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets >>>> >>>> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked inverters >>>> must share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships precisely. Any >>>> mis-wiring can create circulating currents. That circulating energy is >>>> not accounted for in the inverter’s internal power calculations, so the >>>> DC-bus voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter shuts down for >>>> protection. >>>> >>>> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s a >>>> system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper >>>> neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and >>>> proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. >>>> >>>> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using a >>>> non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection >>>> limitations. >>>> >>>> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and >>>> utility requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) >>>> to full integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the >>>> utility to have full control over our systems! >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an insistent >>>>> that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully off grid >>>>> system with no generator. >>>>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive to >>>>> it. >>>>> >>>>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what I’ve >>>>> measured. >>>>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a >>>>> potential issue. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe someone can explain? >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general consensus >>>>> so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main disconnecting >>>>> means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not technically a >>>>> separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made it very clear >>>>> that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter combiner / solar main >>>>> disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And being that NY is still >>>>> on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with the ambiguity in the code >>>>> I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in the main solar disconnect. >>>>> >>>>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of >>>>> loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is >>>>> about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be >>>>> able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to >>>>> powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the >>>>> inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am >>>>> not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain >>>>> all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram >>>>> here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >>>>> >>>>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based on >>>>> the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear >>>>> about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it >>>>> could have anything to do with the DC side. >>>>> >>>>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved >>>>> over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. >>>>> This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond >>>>> in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It >>>>> seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to >>>>> the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in >>>>> the solar main disconnect does not help. >>>>> >>>>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: >>>>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a >>>>> supply side connection? >>>>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had >>>>> issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G >>>>> bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar >>>>> main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this >>>>> error and found that it was caused by something else? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing >>>>>> service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect >>>>>> for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N >>>>>> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should >>>>>> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be >>>>>> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV >>>>>> service disconnect. >>>>>> >>>>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter >>>>>> enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where >>>>>> the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This >>>>>> creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble >>>>>> opinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The >>>>>> issue there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the >>>>>> backup load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as >>>>>> someone who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I >>>>>> say simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>>>>> >>>>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel, >>>>>> they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think more information is needed. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan >>>>>>> Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion >>>>>>> may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>>>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my >>>>>>> opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where >>>>>>> the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >>>>>>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >>>>>>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >>>>>>> requirement >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side >>>>>>>> connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar >>>>>>>> service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up >>>>>>>> as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link >>>>>>>> Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to >>>>>>>> make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I >>>>>>>> mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond >>>>>>>> in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to >>>>>>>> remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system >>>>>>>> work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have >>>>>>>> understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have >>>>>>>> thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> | Ithaca, >>>>>>>> NY 14850 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 20:13:19 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2025 18:13:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 20:22:16 2025 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2025 20:22:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Jay, I've been installing LiFePo4 for the past for years and you should always use equal length/size cables. You will definitely get inequities between batteries is not. I haven't found an exception yet. Is not in any manual I've seen but the manufacturers will tell you after the fact. It's why they come with cables instead of, like the old days, we'd make up our own . FYI, I personally have been using Liniotech for the past two years. Zero service necessary, well built, well priced and certified with SolArk. Their 14.3k model is my go to floor mount. They're based in Texas, use CATL cells and are always available, seemingly. Daryl On Wed, Oct 29, 2025, 8:16 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thx william > > I looked through the install manual and didn’t see the requirements for > equal length cables. > > Where would I find this? Did I miss it or is it in a white paper or? > > Thx > Jay > > On Oct 29, 2025, at 11:27 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi Jay > > The install principles are for both on and off grid. When on grid you have > increased issues with current circles, and imbalanced voltage issues from > bad wiring practices. > On off grid it is current issues, when the installer goes cheap with > smaller wire, AU wire and states "the Load is only XX Kw" so I do not need > a #2AWG wire on the output". > We know that is never true, and the customer will always increase loads or > underestimate loads. The inverter also has a large surge capacity, So the > inverter will starve for Amps when needed on the DC side, and have a high > resistance on the AC side. > > When you follow the recommended wire sizes in the manual, the errors go to > almost zero, unless you have N to G bonds all over the place. That is > another issue altogether, that has been talked about. > > In the end, AIO inverters are different from what us older guys are used > to. Before we could get away with all types of shortcuts when the box was > full of heavy copper and only made AC power. AIO's are really complex, and > the little things in the install matter. The New RULES are making it even > harder ESS, PCS, ECT... More rules, more code, more issues. > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 1:04 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> HI William >> >> This is for both on and off grid correct? >> jay >> >> On Oct 29, 2025, at 10:34 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Dave >> >> The AC wires need to be the same size and try to have the same length. >> This is important because the inverter when stacked "shares" the power so >> you want to try to prevent any imbalance in voltage and resistance >> issues, or circle issues. >> >> In older stacked systems you have a master and a slave and when the power >> demand increases then the slave would take the excess. On AIO's the power >> is shared equally all the time (this is a good thing as you don't get the >> flicker as the slave picks up). It is important that the install takes into >> account the different way the power is used and delivered. Have a clean >> install, with the correct sized conductors as specified by the >> manufacturer, and try to keep the wire run short and equal when connecting >> the inverter AC runs together. >> >> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 9:41 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the >>> technical perspective. >>> >>> I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are >>> exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to >>> wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things >>> that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to >>> each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the >>> battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a >>> bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to >>> have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same >>> length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. >>> >>> Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G bond in >>> the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for other N-G >>> connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a CA-DC link >>> overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. It is not as >>> bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is that in the >>> late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable amount of >>> solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), while the >>> other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of the >>> battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very >>> quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. >>> Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G >>> connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the >>> same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals >>> connected to ground on the backed up loads side? >>> >>> Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the impression >>> that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount of power >>> that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that limits >>> you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the system that >>> much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can go to >>> powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is >>> pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid >>> power" in the Power Control settings. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> All >>>> >>>> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated >>>> high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise >>>> higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may >>>> only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing >>>> (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, >>>> these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. >>>> >>>> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues: >>>> >>>> 1. >>>> >>>> Improper system design >>>> 2. >>>> >>>> Wiring and installation mistakes >>>> >>>> Off-Grid Example >>>> >>>> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass is >>>> cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). >>>> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the >>>> excess energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the >>>> stored energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter >>>> didn’t protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down >>>> with an overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large >>>> retrofitted AC coupled array. >>>> Grid-Tie Example >>>> >>>> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by wiring >>>> mistakes, some common examples are: >>>> >>>> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds >>>> >>>> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets >>>> >>>> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked inverters >>>> must share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships precisely. Any >>>> mis-wiring can create circulating currents. That circulating energy is >>>> not accounted for in the inverter’s internal power calculations, so the >>>> DC-bus voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter shuts down for >>>> protection. >>>> >>>> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s a >>>> system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper >>>> neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and >>>> proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. >>>> >>>> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using a >>>> non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection >>>> limitations. >>>> >>>> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and >>>> utility requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) >>>> to full integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the >>>> utility to have full control over our systems! >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an insistent >>>>> that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully off grid >>>>> system with no generator. >>>>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive to >>>>> it. >>>>> >>>>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what I’ve >>>>> measured. >>>>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a >>>>> potential issue. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe someone can explain? >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general consensus >>>>> so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main disconnecting >>>>> means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not technically a >>>>> separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made it very clear >>>>> that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter combiner / solar main >>>>> disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And being that NY is still >>>>> on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with the ambiguity in the code >>>>> I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in the main solar disconnect. >>>>> >>>>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of >>>>> loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is >>>>> about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be >>>>> able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to >>>>> powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the >>>>> inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am >>>>> not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain >>>>> all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram >>>>> here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >>>>> >>>>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based on >>>>> the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear >>>>> about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it >>>>> could have anything to do with the DC side. >>>>> >>>>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved >>>>> over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. >>>>> This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond >>>>> in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It >>>>> seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to >>>>> the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in >>>>> the solar main disconnect does not help. >>>>> >>>>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: >>>>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a >>>>> supply side connection? >>>>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had >>>>> issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G >>>>> bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar >>>>> main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this >>>>> error and found that it was caused by something else? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing >>>>>> service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect >>>>>> for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N >>>>>> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should >>>>>> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be >>>>>> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV >>>>>> service disconnect. >>>>>> >>>>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter >>>>>> enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where >>>>>> the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This >>>>>> creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble >>>>>> opinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The >>>>>> issue there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the >>>>>> backup load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as >>>>>> someone who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I >>>>>> say simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>>>>> >>>>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel, >>>>>> they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think more information is needed. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan >>>>>>> Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion >>>>>>> may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>>>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my >>>>>>> opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where >>>>>>> the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >>>>>>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >>>>>>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >>>>>>> requirement >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side >>>>>>>> connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar >>>>>>>> service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up >>>>>>>> as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link >>>>>>>> Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to >>>>>>>> make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I >>>>>>>> mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond >>>>>>>> in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to >>>>>>>> remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system >>>>>>>> work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have >>>>>>>> understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have >>>>>>>> thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> | Ithaca, >>>>>>>> NY 14850 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Wed Oct 29 22:07:31 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2025 22:07:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay It is not in the manual, but it is addressed in the training videos. Hopefully it will get in the manual on the next revision. On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 8:16 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thx william > > I looked through the install manual and didn’t see the requirements for > equal length cables. > > Where would I find this? Did I miss it or is it in a white paper or? > > Thx > Jay > > On Oct 29, 2025, at 11:27 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi Jay > > The install principles are for both on and off grid. When on grid you have > increased issues with current circles, and imbalanced voltage issues from > bad wiring practices. > On off grid it is current issues, when the installer goes cheap with > smaller wire, AU wire and states "the Load is only XX Kw" so I do not need > a #2AWG wire on the output". > We know that is never true, and the customer will always increase loads or > underestimate loads. The inverter also has a large surge capacity, So the > inverter will starve for Amps when needed on the DC side, and have a high > resistance on the AC side. > > When you follow the recommended wire sizes in the manual, the errors go to > almost zero, unless you have N to G bonds all over the place. That is > another issue altogether, that has been talked about. > > In the end, AIO inverters are different from what us older guys are used > to. Before we could get away with all types of shortcuts when the box was > full of heavy copper and only made AC power. AIO's are really complex, and > the little things in the install matter. The New RULES are making it even > harder ESS, PCS, ECT... More rules, more code, more issues. > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 1:04 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> HI William >> >> This is for both on and off grid correct? >> jay >> >> On Oct 29, 2025, at 10:34 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Dave >> >> The AC wires need to be the same size and try to have the same length. >> This is important because the inverter when stacked "shares" the power so >> you want to try to prevent any imbalance in voltage and resistance >> issues, or circle issues. >> >> In older stacked systems you have a master and a slave and when the power >> demand increases then the slave would take the excess. On AIO's the power >> is shared equally all the time (this is a good thing as you don't get the >> flicker as the slave picks up). It is important that the install takes into >> account the different way the power is used and delivered. Have a clean >> install, with the correct sized conductors as specified by the >> manufacturer, and try to keep the wire run short and equal when connecting >> the inverter AC runs together. >> >> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 9:41 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the >>> technical perspective. >>> >>> I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are >>> exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to >>> wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things >>> that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to >>> each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the >>> battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a >>> bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to >>> have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same >>> length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. >>> >>> Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G bond in >>> the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for other N-G >>> connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a CA-DC link >>> overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. It is not as >>> bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is that in the >>> late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable amount of >>> solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), while the >>> other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of the >>> battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very >>> quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. >>> Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G >>> connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the >>> same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals >>> connected to ground on the backed up loads side? >>> >>> Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the impression >>> that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount of power >>> that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that limits >>> you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the system that >>> much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can go to >>> powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is >>> pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid >>> power" in the Power Control settings. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> All >>>> >>>> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated >>>> high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise >>>> higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may >>>> only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing >>>> (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, >>>> these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. >>>> >>>> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues: >>>> >>>> 1. >>>> >>>> Improper system design >>>> 2. >>>> >>>> Wiring and installation mistakes >>>> >>>> Off-Grid Example >>>> >>>> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass is >>>> cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). >>>> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the >>>> excess energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the >>>> stored energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter >>>> didn’t protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down >>>> with an overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large >>>> retrofitted AC coupled array. >>>> Grid-Tie Example >>>> >>>> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by wiring >>>> mistakes, some common examples are: >>>> >>>> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds >>>> >>>> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets >>>> >>>> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked inverters >>>> must share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships precisely. Any >>>> mis-wiring can create circulating currents. That circulating energy is >>>> not accounted for in the inverter’s internal power calculations, so the >>>> DC-bus voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter shuts down for >>>> protection. >>>> >>>> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s a >>>> system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper >>>> neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and >>>> proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. >>>> >>>> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using a >>>> non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection >>>> limitations. >>>> >>>> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and >>>> utility requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) >>>> to full integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the >>>> utility to have full control over our systems! >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an insistent >>>>> that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully off grid >>>>> system with no generator. >>>>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive to >>>>> it. >>>>> >>>>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what I’ve >>>>> measured. >>>>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a >>>>> potential issue. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe someone can explain? >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general consensus >>>>> so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main disconnecting >>>>> means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not technically a >>>>> separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made it very clear >>>>> that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter combiner / solar main >>>>> disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And being that NY is still >>>>> on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with the ambiguity in the code >>>>> I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in the main solar disconnect. >>>>> >>>>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of >>>>> loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is >>>>> about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be >>>>> able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to >>>>> powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the >>>>> inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am >>>>> not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain >>>>> all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram >>>>> here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >>>>> >>>>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based on >>>>> the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear >>>>> about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it >>>>> could have anything to do with the DC side. >>>>> >>>>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved >>>>> over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. >>>>> This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond >>>>> in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It >>>>> seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to >>>>> the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in >>>>> the solar main disconnect does not help. >>>>> >>>>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: >>>>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a >>>>> supply side connection? >>>>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had >>>>> issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G >>>>> bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar >>>>> main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this >>>>> error and found that it was caused by something else? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing >>>>>> service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect >>>>>> for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N >>>>>> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should >>>>>> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be >>>>>> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV >>>>>> service disconnect. >>>>>> >>>>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter >>>>>> enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where >>>>>> the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This >>>>>> creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble >>>>>> opinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The >>>>>> issue there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the >>>>>> backup load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as >>>>>> someone who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I >>>>>> say simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>>>>> >>>>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel, >>>>>> they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think more information is needed. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan >>>>>>> Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion >>>>>>> may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>>>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my >>>>>>> opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where >>>>>>> the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >>>>>>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >>>>>>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >>>>>>> requirement >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side >>>>>>>> connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar >>>>>>>> service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up >>>>>>>> as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link >>>>>>>> Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to >>>>>>>> make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I >>>>>>>> mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond >>>>>>>> in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to >>>>>>>> remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system >>>>>>>> work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have >>>>>>>> understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have >>>>>>>> thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> | Ithaca, >>>>>>>> NY 14850 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>>>> c: (607) 270-0370 >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 22:17:36 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2025 19:17:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay If you call MNP Technical Support they should be able to email you a link or get you pdf breakdowns of the trainings with best practice recommendations too On Wed, Oct 29, 2025, 7:07 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jay > > It is not in the manual, but it is addressed in the training videos. > Hopefully it will get in the manual on the next revision. > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 8:16 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Thx william >> >> I looked through the install manual and didn’t see the requirements for >> equal length cables. >> >> Where would I find this? Did I miss it or is it in a white paper or? >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> On Oct 29, 2025, at 11:27 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Hi Jay >> >> The install principles are for both on and off grid. When on grid you >> have increased issues with current circles, and imbalanced voltage issues >> from bad wiring practices. >> On off grid it is current issues, when the installer goes cheap with >> smaller wire, AU wire and states "the Load is only XX Kw" so I do not need >> a #2AWG wire on the output". >> We know that is never true, and the customer will always increase loads >> or underestimate loads. The inverter also has a large surge capacity, So >> the inverter will starve for Amps when needed on the DC side, and have a >> high resistance on the AC side. >> >> When you follow the recommended wire sizes in the manual, the errors go >> to almost zero, unless you have N to G bonds all over the place. That is >> another issue altogether, that has been talked about. >> >> In the end, AIO inverters are different from what us older guys are used >> to. Before we could get away with all types of shortcuts when the box was >> full of heavy copper and only made AC power. AIO's are really complex, and >> the little things in the install matter. The New RULES are making it even >> harder ESS, PCS, ECT... More rules, more code, more issues. >> >> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 1:04 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> HI William >>> >>> This is for both on and off grid correct? >>> jay >>> >>> On Oct 29, 2025, at 10:34 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Dave >>> >>> The AC wires need to be the same size and try to have the same length. >>> This is important because the inverter when stacked "shares" the power so >>> you want to try to prevent any imbalance in voltage and resistance >>> issues, or circle issues. >>> >>> In older stacked systems you have a master and a slave and when the >>> power demand increases then the slave would take the excess. On AIO's the >>> power is shared equally all the time (this is a good thing as you don't get >>> the flicker as the slave picks up). It is important that the install takes >>> into account the different way the power is used and delivered. Have a >>> clean install, with the correct sized conductors as specified by the >>> manufacturer, and try to keep the wire run short and equal when connecting >>> the inverter AC runs together. >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 9:41 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the >>>> technical perspective. >>>> >>>> I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are >>>> exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to >>>> wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things >>>> that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to >>>> each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the >>>> battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a >>>> bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to >>>> have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same >>>> length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. >>>> >>>> Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G bond >>>> in the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for other >>>> N-G connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a CA-DC >>>> link overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. It is >>>> not as bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is that >>>> in the late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable >>>> amount of solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), >>>> while the other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of >>>> the battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very >>>> quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. >>>> Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G >>>> connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the >>>> same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals >>>> connected to ground on the backed up loads side? >>>> >>>> Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the impression >>>> that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount of power >>>> that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that limits >>>> you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the system that >>>> much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can go to >>>> powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is >>>> pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid >>>> power" in the Power Control settings. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> All >>>>> >>>>> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated >>>>> high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise >>>>> higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may >>>>> only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing >>>>> (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, >>>>> these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. >>>>> >>>>> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues: >>>>> >>>>> 1. >>>>> >>>>> Improper system design >>>>> 2. >>>>> >>>>> Wiring and installation mistakes >>>>> >>>>> Off-Grid Example >>>>> >>>>> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass is >>>>> cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). >>>>> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the >>>>> excess energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the >>>>> stored energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter >>>>> didn’t protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down >>>>> with an overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large >>>>> retrofitted AC coupled array. >>>>> Grid-Tie Example >>>>> >>>>> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by wiring >>>>> mistakes, some common examples are: >>>>> >>>>> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds >>>>> >>>>> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets >>>>> >>>>> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked >>>>> inverters must share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships >>>>> precisely. Any mis-wiring can create circulating currents. That >>>>> circulating energy is not accounted for in the inverter’s internal power >>>>> calculations, so the DC-bus voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter >>>>> shuts down for protection. >>>>> >>>>> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s a >>>>> system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper >>>>> neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and >>>>> proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. >>>>> >>>>> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using a >>>>> non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection >>>>> limitations. >>>>> >>>>> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and >>>>> utility requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) >>>>> to full integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the >>>>> utility to have full control over our systems! >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an insistent >>>>>> that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully off grid >>>>>> system with no generator. >>>>>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive >>>>>> to it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what I’ve >>>>>> measured. >>>>>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a >>>>>> potential issue. >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe someone can explain? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general >>>>>> consensus so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main >>>>>> disconnecting means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not >>>>>> technically a separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made >>>>>> it very clear that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter >>>>>> combiner / solar main disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And >>>>>> being that NY is still on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with >>>>>> the ambiguity in the code I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in >>>>>> the main solar disconnect. >>>>>> >>>>>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of >>>>>> loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is >>>>>> about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be >>>>>> able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to >>>>>> powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the >>>>>> inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am >>>>>> not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain >>>>>> all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram >>>>>> here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >>>>>> >>>>>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based >>>>>> on the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear >>>>>> about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it >>>>>> could have anything to do with the DC side. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved >>>>>> over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. >>>>>> This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond >>>>>> in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It >>>>>> seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to >>>>>> the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in >>>>>> the solar main disconnect does not help. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: >>>>>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a >>>>>> supply side connection? >>>>>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had >>>>>> issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G >>>>>> bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar >>>>>> main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this >>>>>> error and found that it was caused by something else? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Dave >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing >>>>>>> service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect >>>>>>> for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N >>>>>>> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should >>>>>>> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be >>>>>>> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV >>>>>>> service disconnect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a >>>>>>> meter enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure >>>>>>> where the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. >>>>>>> This creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble >>>>>>> opinion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The >>>>>>> issue there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the >>>>>>> backup load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as >>>>>>> someone who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I >>>>>>> say simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution >>>>>>> panel, they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think more information is needed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan >>>>>>>> Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion >>>>>>>> may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>>>>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my >>>>>>>> opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where >>>>>>>> the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >>>>>>>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >>>>>>>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >>>>>>>> requirement >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side >>>>>>>>> connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar >>>>>>>>> service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up >>>>>>>>> as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link >>>>>>>>> Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to >>>>>>>>> make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I >>>>>>>>> mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond >>>>>>>>> in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to >>>>>>>>> remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system >>>>>>>>> work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have >>>>>>>>> understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have >>>>>>>>> thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> | Ithaca, >>>>>>>>> NY 14850 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>>>>> c: >>>>>>>>> (607) >>>>>>>>> 270-0370 >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Oct 30 09:18:32 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2025 09:18:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is an installation tips document that I got from Midnite at some point. The battery cables needing to be the same length from the battery combining busbar to the inverters may not be in there, but tech support is very clear about that point. Otherwise, there is some good stuff in here. Cheers, Dave On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 10:20 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jay > If you call MNP Technical Support they should be able to email you a link > or get you pdf breakdowns of the trainings with best practice > recommendations too > > > > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2025, 7:07 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Jay >> >> It is not in the manual, but it is addressed in the training videos. >> Hopefully it will get in the manual on the next revision. >> >> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 8:16 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Thx william >>> >>> I looked through the install manual and didn’t see the requirements for >>> equal length cables. >>> >>> Where would I find this? Did I miss it or is it in a white paper or? >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> On Oct 29, 2025, at 11:27 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Hi Jay >>> >>> The install principles are for both on and off grid. When on grid you >>> have increased issues with current circles, and imbalanced voltage issues >>> from bad wiring practices. >>> On off grid it is current issues, when the installer goes cheap with >>> smaller wire, AU wire and states "the Load is only XX Kw" so I do not need >>> a #2AWG wire on the output". >>> We know that is never true, and the customer will always increase loads >>> or underestimate loads. The inverter also has a large surge capacity, So >>> the inverter will starve for Amps when needed on the DC side, and have a >>> high resistance on the AC side. >>> >>> When you follow the recommended wire sizes in the manual, the errors go >>> to almost zero, unless you have N to G bonds all over the place. That is >>> another issue altogether, that has been talked about. >>> >>> In the end, AIO inverters are different from what us older guys are used >>> to. Before we could get away with all types of shortcuts when the box was >>> full of heavy copper and only made AC power. AIO's are really complex, and >>> the little things in the install matter. The New RULES are making it even >>> harder ESS, PCS, ECT... More rules, more code, more issues. >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 1:04 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> HI William >>>> >>>> This is for both on and off grid correct? >>>> jay >>>> >>>> On Oct 29, 2025, at 10:34 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Dave >>>> >>>> The AC wires need to be the same size and try to have the same length. >>>> This is important because the inverter when stacked "shares" the power so >>>> you want to try to prevent any imbalance in voltage and resistance >>>> issues, or circle issues. >>>> >>>> In older stacked systems you have a master and a slave and when the >>>> power demand increases then the slave would take the excess. On AIO's the >>>> power is shared equally all the time (this is a good thing as you don't get >>>> the flicker as the slave picks up). It is important that the install takes >>>> into account the different way the power is used and delivered. Have a >>>> clean install, with the correct sized conductors as specified by the >>>> manufacturer, and try to keep the wire run short and equal when connecting >>>> the inverter AC runs together. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 9:41 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the >>>>> technical perspective. >>>>> >>>>> I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are >>>>> exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to >>>>> wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things >>>>> that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to >>>>> each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the >>>>> battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a >>>>> bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to >>>>> have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same >>>>> length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. >>>>> >>>>> Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G bond >>>>> in the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for other >>>>> N-G connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a CA-DC >>>>> link overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. It is >>>>> not as bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is that >>>>> in the late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable >>>>> amount of solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), >>>>> while the other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of >>>>> the battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very >>>>> quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. >>>>> Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G >>>>> connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the >>>>> same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals >>>>> connected to ground on the backed up loads side? >>>>> >>>>> Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the impression >>>>> that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount of power >>>>> that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that limits >>>>> you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the system that >>>>> much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can go to >>>>> powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is >>>>> pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid >>>>> power" in the Power Control settings. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> All >>>>>> >>>>>> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated >>>>>> high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise >>>>>> higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may >>>>>> only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing >>>>>> (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, >>>>>> these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. >>>>>> >>>>>> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. >>>>>> >>>>>> Improper system design >>>>>> 2. >>>>>> >>>>>> Wiring and installation mistakes >>>>>> >>>>>> Off-Grid Example >>>>>> >>>>>> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass >>>>>> is cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). >>>>>> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the >>>>>> excess energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the >>>>>> stored energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter >>>>>> didn’t protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down >>>>>> with an overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large >>>>>> retrofitted AC coupled array. >>>>>> Grid-Tie Example >>>>>> >>>>>> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by wiring >>>>>> mistakes, some common examples are: >>>>>> >>>>>> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds >>>>>> >>>>>> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets >>>>>> >>>>>> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked >>>>>> inverters must share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships >>>>>> precisely. Any mis-wiring can create circulating currents. That >>>>>> circulating energy is not accounted for in the inverter’s internal power >>>>>> calculations, so the DC-bus voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter >>>>>> shuts down for protection. >>>>>> >>>>>> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s >>>>>> a system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper >>>>>> neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and >>>>>> proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. >>>>>> >>>>>> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using >>>>>> a non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection >>>>>> limitations. >>>>>> >>>>>> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and >>>>>> utility requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) >>>>>> to full integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the >>>>>> utility to have full control over our systems! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an insistent >>>>>>> that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully off grid >>>>>>> system with no generator. >>>>>>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive >>>>>>> to it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what >>>>>>> I’ve measured. >>>>>>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a >>>>>>> potential issue. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe someone can explain? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  >>>>>>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general >>>>>>> consensus so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main >>>>>>> disconnecting means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not >>>>>>> technically a separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made >>>>>>> it very clear that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter >>>>>>> combiner / solar main disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And >>>>>>> being that NY is still on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with >>>>>>> the ambiguity in the code I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in >>>>>>> the main solar disconnect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of >>>>>>> loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is >>>>>>> about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be >>>>>>> able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to >>>>>>> powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the >>>>>>> inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am >>>>>>> not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain >>>>>>> all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram >>>>>>> here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based >>>>>>> on the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear >>>>>>> about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it >>>>>>> could have anything to do with the DC side. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved >>>>>>> over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. >>>>>>> This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond >>>>>>> in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It >>>>>>> seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to >>>>>>> the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in >>>>>>> the solar main disconnect does not help. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: >>>>>>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a >>>>>>> supply side connection? >>>>>>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had >>>>>>> issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G >>>>>>> bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar >>>>>>> main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this >>>>>>> error and found that it was caused by something else? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the >>>>>>>> existing service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service >>>>>>>> disconnect for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N >>>>>>>> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should >>>>>>>> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be >>>>>>>> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV >>>>>>>> service disconnect. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a >>>>>>>> meter enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure >>>>>>>> where the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. >>>>>>>> This creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble >>>>>>>> opinion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The >>>>>>>> issue there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the >>>>>>>> backup load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as >>>>>>>> someone who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I >>>>>>>> say simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution >>>>>>>> panel, they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think more information is needed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan >>>>>>>>> Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion >>>>>>>>> may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>>>>>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in >>>>>>>>> my opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure >>>>>>>>> where the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >>>>>>>>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >>>>>>>>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >>>>>>>>> requirement >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side >>>>>>>>>> connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar >>>>>>>>>> service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up >>>>>>>>>> as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link >>>>>>>>>> Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to >>>>>>>>>> make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I >>>>>>>>>> mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond >>>>>>>>>> in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to >>>>>>>>>> remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system >>>>>>>>>> work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have >>>>>>>>>> understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have >>>>>>>>>> thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>>>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> | Ithaca, >>>>>>>>>> NY 14850 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>>>>>> c: >>>>>>>>>> (607) >>>>>>>>>> 270-0370 >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Installation Tips (2).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 99485 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 30 09:32:45 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2025 07:32:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62CF1B0C-7D3E-4947-AF0E-0B6F8E003B36@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Oct 30 09:39:17 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2025 09:39:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: <62CF1B0C-7D3E-4947-AF0E-0B6F8E003B36@gmail.com> References: <62CF1B0C-7D3E-4947-AF0E-0B6F8E003B36@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, what they were telling me is that with multiple inverters, the 4/0 cables to each inverter need to be the same length. We did not specifically discuss whether positive needed to be the same length as the negative cables. I would think it is more important that the positive cables are all the same length and that the negative cables are all the same length. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Oct 30, 2025 at 9:36 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thx dave. > > To be clear MP is saying for a single inverter the positive and negative > 4/0 to the inverter need to be the same length? > > Jay > > On Oct 30, 2025, at 7:19 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Here is an installation tips document that I got from Midnite at some > point. The battery cables needing to be the same length from the battery > combining busbar to the inverters may not be in there, but tech support is > very clear about that point. Otherwise, there is some good stuff in here. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 10:20 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jay >> If you call MNP Technical Support they should be able to email you a link >> or get you pdf breakdowns of the trainings with best practice >> recommendations too >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025, 7:07 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jay >>> >>> It is not in the manual, but it is addressed in the training videos. >>> Hopefully it will get in the manual on the next revision. >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 8:16 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Thx william >>>> >>>> I looked through the install manual and didn’t see the requirements for >>>> equal length cables. >>>> >>>> Where would I find this? Did I miss it or is it in a white paper or? >>>> >>>> Thx >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> On Oct 29, 2025, at 11:27 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> Hi Jay >>>> >>>> The install principles are for both on and off grid. When on grid you >>>> have increased issues with current circles, and imbalanced voltage issues >>>> from bad wiring practices. >>>> On off grid it is current issues, when the installer goes cheap with >>>> smaller wire, AU wire and states "the Load is only XX Kw" so I do not need >>>> a #2AWG wire on the output". >>>> We know that is never true, and the customer will always increase loads >>>> or underestimate loads. The inverter also has a large surge capacity, So >>>> the inverter will starve for Amps when needed on the DC side, and have a >>>> high resistance on the AC side. >>>> >>>> When you follow the recommended wire sizes in the manual, the errors go >>>> to almost zero, unless you have N to G bonds all over the place. That is >>>> another issue altogether, that has been talked about. >>>> >>>> In the end, AIO inverters are different from what us older guys are >>>> used to. Before we could get away with all types of shortcuts when the box >>>> was full of heavy copper and only made AC power. AIO's are really complex, >>>> and the little things in the install matter. The New RULES are making it >>>> even harder ESS, PCS, ECT... More rules, more code, more issues. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 1:04 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> HI William >>>>> >>>>> This is for both on and off grid correct? >>>>> jay >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 29, 2025, at 10:34 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Dave >>>>> >>>>> The AC wires need to be the same size and try to have the same length. >>>>> This is important because the inverter when stacked "shares" the power so >>>>> you want to try to prevent any imbalance in voltage and resistance >>>>> issues, or circle issues. >>>>> >>>>> In older stacked systems you have a master and a slave and when the >>>>> power demand increases then the slave would take the excess. On AIO's the >>>>> power is shared equally all the time (this is a good thing as you don't get >>>>> the flicker as the slave picks up). It is important that the install takes >>>>> into account the different way the power is used and delivered. Have a >>>>> clean install, with the correct sized conductors as specified by the >>>>> manufacturer, and try to keep the wire run short and equal when connecting >>>>> the inverter AC runs together. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 9:41 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the >>>>>> technical perspective. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are >>>>>> exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to >>>>>> wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things >>>>>> that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to >>>>>> each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the >>>>>> battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a >>>>>> bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to >>>>>> have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same >>>>>> length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. >>>>>> >>>>>> Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G bond >>>>>> in the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for other >>>>>> N-G connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a CA-DC >>>>>> link overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. It is >>>>>> not as bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is that >>>>>> in the late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable >>>>>> amount of solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), >>>>>> while the other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of >>>>>> the battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very >>>>>> quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. >>>>>> Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G >>>>>> connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the >>>>>> same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals >>>>>> connected to ground on the backed up loads side? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the >>>>>> impression that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount >>>>>> of power that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that >>>>>> limits you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the >>>>>> system that much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can >>>>>> go to powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is >>>>>> pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid >>>>>> power" in the Power Control settings. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Dave >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> All >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated >>>>>>> high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise >>>>>>> higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may >>>>>>> only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing >>>>>>> (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, >>>>>>> these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Improper system design >>>>>>> 2. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wiring and installation mistakes >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Off-Grid Example >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass >>>>>>> is cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). >>>>>>> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the >>>>>>> excess energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the >>>>>>> stored energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter >>>>>>> didn’t protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down >>>>>>> with an overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large >>>>>>> retrofitted AC coupled array. >>>>>>> Grid-Tie Example >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by >>>>>>> wiring mistakes, some common examples are: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked >>>>>>> inverters must share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships >>>>>>> precisely. Any mis-wiring can create circulating currents. That >>>>>>> circulating energy is not accounted for in the inverter’s internal power >>>>>>> calculations, so the DC-bus voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter >>>>>>> shuts down for protection. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s >>>>>>> a system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper >>>>>>> neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and >>>>>>> proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using >>>>>>> a non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection >>>>>>> limitations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and >>>>>>> utility requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) >>>>>>> to full integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the >>>>>>> utility to have full control over our systems! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an >>>>>>>> insistent that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully >>>>>>>> off grid system with no generator. >>>>>>>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive >>>>>>>> to it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what >>>>>>>> I’ve measured. >>>>>>>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a >>>>>>>> potential issue. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maybe someone can explain? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general >>>>>>>> consensus so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main >>>>>>>> disconnecting means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not >>>>>>>> technically a separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made >>>>>>>> it very clear that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter >>>>>>>> combiner / solar main disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And >>>>>>>> being that NY is still on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with >>>>>>>> the ambiguity in the code I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in >>>>>>>> the main solar disconnect. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of >>>>>>>> loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is >>>>>>>> about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be >>>>>>>> able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to >>>>>>>> powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the >>>>>>>> inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am >>>>>>>> not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain >>>>>>>> all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram >>>>>>>> here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based >>>>>>>> on the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear >>>>>>>> about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it >>>>>>>> could have anything to do with the DC side. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got >>>>>>>> moved over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the >>>>>>>> premises. This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift >>>>>>>> the N-G bond in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded >>>>>>>> somewhere else. It seems like it can be a slow process to track that down >>>>>>>> with power cut to the house, but that might be what I have to try if >>>>>>>> removing the N-G bond in the solar main disconnect does not help. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two >>>>>>>> fold: >>>>>>>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for >>>>>>>> a supply side connection? >>>>>>>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had >>>>>>>> issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G >>>>>>>> bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar >>>>>>>> main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this >>>>>>>> error and found that it was caused by something else? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the >>>>>>>>> existing service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service >>>>>>>>> disconnect for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N >>>>>>>>> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should >>>>>>>>> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be >>>>>>>>> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV >>>>>>>>> service disconnect. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a >>>>>>>>> meter enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure >>>>>>>>> where the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. >>>>>>>>> This creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble >>>>>>>>> opinion. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The >>>>>>>>> issue there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the >>>>>>>>> backup load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as >>>>>>>>> someone who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I >>>>>>>>> say simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution >>>>>>>>> panel, they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think more information is needed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both >>>>>>>>>> Ryan Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular >>>>>>>>>> opinion may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>>>>>>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in >>>>>>>>>> my opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure >>>>>>>>>> where the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >>>>>>>>>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >>>>>>>>>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >>>>>>>>>> requirement >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side >>>>>>>>>>> connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar >>>>>>>>>>> service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up >>>>>>>>>>> as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link >>>>>>>>>>> Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to >>>>>>>>>>> make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I >>>>>>>>>>> mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond >>>>>>>>>>> in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to >>>>>>>>>>> remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system >>>>>>>>>>> work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have >>>>>>>>>>> understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have >>>>>>>>>>> thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>>>>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>>>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>>>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>>>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> | Ithaca, >>>>>>>>>>> NY 14850 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>>>>>>> c: >>>>>>>>>>> (607) >>>>>>>>>>> 270-0370 >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 31 10:58:07 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2025 08:58:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: <62CF1B0C-7D3E-4947-AF0E-0B6F8E003B36@gmail.com> Message-ID: <86709C62-3482-46F6-8A0C-1441CFBE40E9@gmail.com> As to the issue of wire size. Isn’t really that the OEM's want a specific maximum resistance of the wire between the multiple inverters and batteries for that matter? I am reminded of a project I did 1.5 yrs ago with 10 Fortress Evault max and 3 inverters. Of course fortress wanted equal wire lengths between the batteries to the combiner. Given the number of them, and the layout it was going to take about $3000+ more in wire and where to put all that wire. I thought about it, and came to the realization that they really just wanted equal VD between them. I did the calculations based on max load/charge split between the batteries and ran the numbers by their senior tech/engineering staff, they agreed. Basically in short, closest battery had 1/0, then they worked up to 4/0 at the end. All the VD between them was about .5% which they approved. This saved me and the client a ton of money and a huge hassle over where to actually store all that wire. This issue with inverter cables needing to be the same length is the same thing. They don’t have to be the same length they have to have a similar VD between them. What is that number supposed to be? We are engineers or play at being engineers, tell us what we need to know. Do we need to buy a resistance tester to confirm the wires meet a specific standard? All wires are not the same. What if Im using two different brands/ratings of 4/0 because I ran out or my supplier ran out. How am I supposed to know? When I look at the old Trace manual, yes I have them still of the SW 4024, they at least had X wire size for Y distance and then different sizes for longer distances. Midnight just has 4/0. Luxpower has numerous combinations of wire sizes per distance. But I would like to know what am I supposed to be aiming for? .5% VD at rated power? Or is it peak power or? Or some actual resistance measurement or? or what is it? If I know what its supposed to be then I can mix and match wire sizes to get the correct % VD. Don’t just tell me 4/0. jay > On Oct 30, 2025, at 7:39 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jay, what they were telling me is that with multiple inverters, the 4/0 cables to each inverter need to be the same length. We did not specifically discuss whether positive needed to be the same length as the negative cables. I would think it is more important that the positive cables are all the same length and that the negative cables are all the same length. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2025 at 9:36 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Thx dave. >> >> To be clear MP is saying for a single inverter the positive and negative 4/0 to the inverter need to be the same length? >> >> Jay >> >>> On Oct 30, 2025, at 7:19 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Here is an installation tips document that I got from Midnite at some point. The battery cables needing to be the same length from the battery combining busbar to the inverters may not be in there, but tech support is very clear about that point. Otherwise, there is some good stuff in here. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 10:20 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> Jay >>>> If you call MNP Technical Support they should be able to email you a link or get you pdf breakdowns of the trainings with best practice recommendations too >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025, 7:07 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> Hi Jay >>>>> >>>>> It is not in the manual, but it is addressed in the training videos. Hopefully it will get in the manual on the next revision. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 8:16 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>> Thx william >>>>>> >>>>>> I looked through the install manual and didn’t see the requirements for equal length cables. >>>>>> >>>>>> Where would I find this? Did I miss it or is it in a white paper or? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thx >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Oct 29, 2025, at 11:27 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  >>>>>>> Hi Jay >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The install principles are for both on and off grid. When on grid you have increased issues with current circles, and imbalanced voltage issues from bad wiring practices. >>>>>>> On off grid it is current issues, when the installer goes cheap with smaller wire, AU wire and states "the Load is only XX Kw" so I do not need a #2AWG wire on the output". >>>>>>> We know that is never true, and the customer will always increase loads or underestimate loads. The inverter also has a large surge capacity, So the inverter will starve for Amps when needed on the DC side, and have a high resistance on the AC side. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When you follow the recommended wire sizes in the manual, the errors go to almost zero, unless you have N to G bonds all over the place. That is another issue altogether, that has been talked about. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In the end, AIO inverters are different from what us older guys are used to. Before we could get away with all types of shortcuts when the box was full of heavy copper and only made AC power. AIO's are really complex, and the little things in the install matter. The New RULES are making it even harder ESS, PCS, ECT... More rules, more code, more issues. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 1:04 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>> HI William >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is for both on and off grid correct? >>>>>>>> jay >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Oct 29, 2025, at 10:34 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Dave >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The AC wires need to be the same size and try to have the same length. This is important because the inverter when stacked "shares" the power so you want to try to prevent any imbalance in voltage and resistance issues, or circle issues. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In older stacked systems you have a master and a slave and when the power demand increases then the slave would take the excess. On AIO's the power is shared equally all the time (this is a good thing as you don't get the flicker as the slave picks up). It is important that the install takes into account the different way the power is used and delivered. Have a clean install, with the correct sized conductors as specified by the manufacturer, and try to keep the wire run short and equal when connecting the inverter AC runs together. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 9:41 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the technical perspective. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G bond in the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for other N-G connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a CA-DC link overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. It is not as bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is that in the late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable amount of solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), while the other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of the battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. >>>>>>>>>> Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals connected to ground on the backed up loads side? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the impression that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount of power that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that limits you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the system that much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can go to powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid power" in the Power Control settings. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> All >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two issues: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Improper system design >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Wiring and installation mistakes >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Off-Grid Example >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass is cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). >>>>>>>>>>> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the excess energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the stored energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter didn’t protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down with an overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large retrofitted AC coupled array. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Grid-Tie Example >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by wiring mistakes, some common examples are: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked inverters must share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships precisely. Any mis-wiring can create circulating currents. That circulating energy is not accounted for in the inverter’s internal power calculations, so the DC-bus voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter shuts down for protection. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — it’s a system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring proper neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, and proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using a non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection limitations. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and utility requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) to full integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the utility to have full control over our systems! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an insistent that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully off grid system with no generator. >>>>>>>>>>>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are sensitive to it. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what I’ve measured. >>>>>>>>>>>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have a potential issue. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe someone can explain? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general consensus so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main disconnecting means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not technically a separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made it very clear that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter combiner / solar main disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And being that NY is still on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with the ambiguity in the code I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in the main solar disconnect. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset of loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side based on the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty clear about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention that it could have anything to do with the DC side. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got moved over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the premises. This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift the N-G bond in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded somewhere else. It seems like it can be a slow process to track that down with power cut to the house, but that might be what I have to try if removing the N-G bond in the solar main disconnect does not help. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two fold: >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for a supply side connection? >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else had issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second N-G bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this error and found that it was caused by something else? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the existing service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service disconnect for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV service disconnect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a meter enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure where the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. This creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble opinion. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The issue there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the backup load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as someone who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I say simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel, they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think more information is needed. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both Ryan Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular opinion may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in my opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure where the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC requirement >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd.   | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> c:  (607) 270-0370 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Oct 31 12:04:47 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2025 11:04:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: <86709C62-3482-46F6-8A0C-1441CFBE40E9@gmail.com> References: <86709C62-3482-46F6-8A0C-1441CFBE40E9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <16801561-AEF6-4144-AAAE-0651BA43467B@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Nov 1 09:31:26 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2025 09:31:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: <86709C62-3482-46F6-8A0C-1441CFBE40E9@gmail.com> References: <62CF1B0C-7D3E-4947-AF0E-0B6F8E003B36@gmail.com> <86709C62-3482-46F6-8A0C-1441CFBE40E9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Recently, I had a manufacturer's rep suggest different battery cable sizes for eight LFP batteries that were widely varying in distance to the combiner busbars. I had already made the 2/0 cables exactly the same length for all batteries with the longest being about 20 feet, so I didn't see the need to have different size wires. But it goes to show how there are conflicting suggestions out there on how to approach the issue of cable length and size. When you have a very large battery bank and/or inverter relative to the load or charging source, the cable size and length can become a pretty moot point. For example, if you have a 10-battery 160 kWh battery bank that can accept an 80+ kW charge rate, but you only have 40 kW of PV, you're looking at max 4 kW of charge per battery, and that assumes you have enough charger capacity and all of the PV is maxed out at the same time. You might see 80 amps per battery with 2/0 battery cable, and only at peak sun. The voltage drop will be next to nothing for reasonably short cable lengths (i.e. 0.63% for 20 feet of cable). The same thing goes for discharge. If you have the same 160 kWh battery bank, it might be suitable for a home that sees a sustained load of just a few thousand watts, with spikes in the mid-teens. Even if the house is burning 20 kW for some time, you're looking at 2 kW per battery, or about 40 amps. Again, any differences in voltage drop should be inconsequential. When manufacturers tell us that we need to keep things the same length and upsize this and that, the assumption is that we are running these systems on the edge of the performance window, which is rarely the case in my experience. Usually, these nuisance alarms and faults occur nowhere near the edge cases. They occur during everyday ho-hum operation, even at the bottom of the performance window where voltage drop is a non-factor. In my opinion, these inverters are way too sensitive to the bonding issues we are discussing. From a homeowner's perspective, "this doesn't happen with the grid, so it shouldn't happen with the inverter." From the solar pro's perspective, "this didn't happen with the old SW5548 I replaced with an AIO." Both points are valid. I understand that manufacturers need to meet certain requirements to list their equipment, but there is theory and then there is reality. We are trading reliability for safety to the extent that the reliability level is unacceptable. Don't even get me started about arc-fault sensitivity... Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Oct 31, 2025 at 11:01 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > As to the issue of wire size. > > Isn’t really that the OEM's want a specific maximum resistance of the wire > between the multiple inverters and batteries for that matter? > > I am reminded of a project I did 1.5 yrs ago with 10 Fortress Evault max > and 3 inverters. Of course fortress wanted equal wire lengths between the > batteries to the combiner. > Given the number of them, and the layout it was going to take about $3000+ > more in wire and where to put all that wire. > I thought about it, and came to the realization that they really just > wanted equal VD between them. I did the calculations based on max > load/charge split between the batteries and ran the numbers by their > senior tech/engineering staff, they agreed. Basically in short, closest > battery had 1/0, then they worked up to 4/0 at the end. All the VD between > them was about .5% which they approved. This saved me and the client a ton > of money and a huge hassle over where to actually store all that wire. > > This issue with inverter cables needing to be the same length is the same > thing. They don’t have to be the same length they have to have a similar > VD between them. What is that number supposed to be? We are engineers or > play at being engineers, tell us what we need to know. Do we need to buy a > resistance tester to confirm the wires meet a specific standard? > All wires are not the same. What if Im using two different brands/ratings > of 4/0 because I ran out or my supplier ran out. How am I supposed to > know? > > When I look at the old Trace manual, yes I have them still of the SW 4024, > they at least had X wire size for Y distance and then different sizes for > longer distances. Midnight just has 4/0. Luxpower has numerous > combinations of wire sizes per distance. But I would like to know what > am I supposed to be aiming for? .5% VD at rated power? Or is it peak power > or? Or some actual resistance measurement or? or what is it? If I know what > its supposed to be then I can mix and match wire sizes to get the correct % > VD. > > > > Don’t just tell me 4/0. > > jay > > > > > > > On Oct 30, 2025, at 7:39 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jay, what they were telling me is that with multiple inverters, the 4/0 > cables to each inverter need to be the same length. We did not specifically > discuss whether positive needed to be the same length as the negative > cables. I would think it is more important that the positive cables are all > the same length and that the negative cables are all the same length. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2025 at 9:36 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Thx dave. >> >> To be clear MP is saying for a single inverter the positive and negative >> 4/0 to the inverter need to be the same length? >> >> Jay >> >> On Oct 30, 2025, at 7:19 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Here is an installation tips document that I got from Midnite at some >> point. The battery cables needing to be the same length from the battery >> combining busbar to the inverters may not be in there, but tech support is >> very clear about that point. Otherwise, there is some good stuff in here. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 10:20 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Jay >>> If you call MNP Technical Support they should be able to email you a >>> link or get you pdf breakdowns of the trainings with best practice >>> recommendations too >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025, 7:07 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Jay >>>> >>>> It is not in the manual, but it is addressed in the training videos. >>>> Hopefully it will get in the manual on the next revision. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 8:16 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thx william >>>>> >>>>> I looked through the install manual and didn’t see the requirements >>>>> for equal length cables. >>>>> >>>>> Where would I find this? Did I miss it or is it in a white paper or? >>>>> >>>>> Thx >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 29, 2025, at 11:27 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Hi Jay >>>>> >>>>> The install principles are for both on and off grid. When on grid you >>>>> have increased issues with current circles, and imbalanced voltage issues >>>>> from bad wiring practices. >>>>> On off grid it is current issues, when the installer goes cheap with >>>>> smaller wire, AU wire and states "the Load is only XX Kw" so I do not need >>>>> a #2AWG wire on the output". >>>>> We know that is never true, and the customer will always increase >>>>> loads or underestimate loads. The inverter also has a large surge capacity, >>>>> So the inverter will starve for Amps when needed on the DC side, and have a >>>>> high resistance on the AC side. >>>>> >>>>> When you follow the recommended wire sizes in the manual, the errors >>>>> go to almost zero, unless you have N to G bonds all over the place. That is >>>>> another issue altogether, that has been talked about. >>>>> >>>>> In the end, AIO inverters are different from what us older guys are >>>>> used to. Before we could get away with all types of shortcuts when the box >>>>> was full of heavy copper and only made AC power. AIO's are really complex, >>>>> and the little things in the install matter. The New RULES are making it >>>>> even harder ESS, PCS, ECT... More rules, more code, more issues. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 1:04 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> HI William >>>>>> >>>>>> This is for both on and off grid correct? >>>>>> jay >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 29, 2025, at 10:34 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Dave >>>>>> >>>>>> The AC wires need to be the same size and try to have the >>>>>> same length. This is important because the inverter when stacked "shares" >>>>>> the power so you want to try to prevent any imbalance in voltage and >>>>>> resistance issues, or circle issues. >>>>>> >>>>>> In older stacked systems you have a master and a slave and when the >>>>>> power demand increases then the slave would take the excess. On AIO's the >>>>>> power is shared equally all the time (this is a good thing as you don't get >>>>>> the flicker as the slave picks up). It is important that the install takes >>>>>> into account the different way the power is used and delivered. Have a >>>>>> clean install, with the correct sized conductors as specified by the >>>>>> manufacturer, and try to keep the wire run short and equal when connecting >>>>>> the inverter AC runs together. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 9:41 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the >>>>>>> technical perspective. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are >>>>>>> exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to >>>>>>> wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things >>>>>>> that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to >>>>>>> each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the >>>>>>> battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a >>>>>>> bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to >>>>>>> have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same >>>>>>> length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G >>>>>>> bond in the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for >>>>>>> other N-G connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a >>>>>>> CA-DC link overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. >>>>>>> It is not as bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is >>>>>>> that in the late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable >>>>>>> amount of solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), >>>>>>> while the other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of >>>>>>> the battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very >>>>>>> quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. >>>>>>> Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G >>>>>>> connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the >>>>>>> same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals >>>>>>> connected to ground on the backed up loads side? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the >>>>>>> impression that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount >>>>>>> of power that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that >>>>>>> limits you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the >>>>>>> system that much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can >>>>>>> go to powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is >>>>>>> pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid >>>>>>> power" in the Power Control settings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated >>>>>>>> high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise >>>>>>>> higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may >>>>>>>> only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing >>>>>>>> (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, >>>>>>>> these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two >>>>>>>> issues: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Improper system design >>>>>>>> 2. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wiring and installation mistakes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Off-Grid Example >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because glass >>>>>>>> is cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). >>>>>>>> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the >>>>>>>> excess energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the >>>>>>>> stored energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter >>>>>>>> didn’t protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down >>>>>>>> with an overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large >>>>>>>> retrofitted AC coupled array. >>>>>>>> Grid-Tie Example >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused by >>>>>>>> wiring mistakes, some common examples are: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked >>>>>>>> inverters must share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships >>>>>>>> precisely. Any mis-wiring can create circulating currents. That >>>>>>>> circulating energy is not accounted for in the inverter’s internal power >>>>>>>> calculations, so the DC-bus voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter >>>>>>>> shuts down for protection. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — >>>>>>>> it’s a system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring >>>>>>>> proper neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, >>>>>>>> and proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using >>>>>>>> a non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection >>>>>>>> limitations. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and >>>>>>>> utility requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) >>>>>>>> to full integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the >>>>>>>> utility to have full control over our systems! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an >>>>>>>>> insistent that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully >>>>>>>>> off grid system with no generator. >>>>>>>>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are >>>>>>>>> sensitive to it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what >>>>>>>>> I’ve measured. >>>>>>>>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have >>>>>>>>> a potential issue. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe someone can explain? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general >>>>>>>>> consensus so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main >>>>>>>>> disconnecting means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not >>>>>>>>> technically a separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made >>>>>>>>> it very clear that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter >>>>>>>>> combiner / solar main disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And >>>>>>>>> being that NY is still on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with >>>>>>>>> the ambiguity in the code I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in >>>>>>>>> the main solar disconnect. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset >>>>>>>>> of loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is >>>>>>>>> about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be >>>>>>>>> able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to >>>>>>>>> powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the >>>>>>>>> inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am >>>>>>>>> not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain >>>>>>>>> all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram >>>>>>>>> here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side >>>>>>>>> based on the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty >>>>>>>>> clear about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention >>>>>>>>> that it could have anything to do with the DC side. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got >>>>>>>>> moved over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the >>>>>>>>> premises. This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift >>>>>>>>> the N-G bond in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded >>>>>>>>> somewhere else. It seems like it can be a slow process to track that down >>>>>>>>> with power cut to the house, but that might be what I have to try if >>>>>>>>> removing the N-G bond in the solar main disconnect does not help. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two >>>>>>>>> fold: >>>>>>>>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect for >>>>>>>>> a supply side connection? >>>>>>>>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else >>>>>>>>> had issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second >>>>>>>>> N-G bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar >>>>>>>>> main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this >>>>>>>>> error and found that it was caused by something else? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the >>>>>>>>>> existing service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service >>>>>>>>>> disconnect for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N >>>>>>>>>> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should >>>>>>>>>> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be >>>>>>>>>> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV >>>>>>>>>> service disconnect. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a >>>>>>>>>> meter enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure >>>>>>>>>> where the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. >>>>>>>>>> This creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble >>>>>>>>>> opinion. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The >>>>>>>>>> issue there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the >>>>>>>>>> backup load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as >>>>>>>>>> someone who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I >>>>>>>>>> say simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution >>>>>>>>>> panel, they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think more information is needed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both >>>>>>>>>>> Ryan Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular >>>>>>>>>>> opinion may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>>>>>>>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though in >>>>>>>>>>> my opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure >>>>>>>>>>> where the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >>>>>>>>>>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >>>>>>>>>>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >>>>>>>>>>> requirement >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side >>>>>>>>>>>> connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar >>>>>>>>>>>> service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up >>>>>>>>>>>> as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link >>>>>>>>>>>> Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to >>>>>>>>>>>> make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I >>>>>>>>>>>> mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond >>>>>>>>>>>> in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to >>>>>>>>>>>> remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system >>>>>>>>>>>> work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have >>>>>>>>>>>> understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have >>>>>>>>>>>> thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>>>>>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>>>>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>>>>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>>>>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> | Ithaca, >>>>>>>>>>>> NY 14850 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>>>>>>>> c: >>>>>>>>>>>> (607) >>>>>>>>>>>> 270-0370 >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Sat Nov 1 13:43:41 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2025 13:43:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] N-G bond for supply side connection Midnite Power In-Reply-To: References: <62CF1B0C-7D3E-4947-AF0E-0B6F8E003B36@gmail.com> <86709C62-3482-46F6-8A0C-1441CFBE40E9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I agree with what you’re saying — but as installers and customers continue to allow rulemakers and utilities to impose increasingly complex operating requirements, we’re seeing a real shift in priorities. *“We are trading reliability for safety to the extent that the reliability level is unacceptable.”* That statement is 100% correct, and the focus should indeed be on *“we.”* Manufacturers are forced to implement these ever-growing rules, certifications, listings, and “requirements” just to sell equipment. Many of us would love to go back to the days of the old Trace 4048 UL1741 requirements — those systems were rock-solid and simple. If today’s AIO inverters were held to that same UL1741 standard, they’d not only be more reliable but also far more affordable. It is an Apple to Oranges comparison. Unfortunately, now we have to let utilities *control* the inverters, comply with ESS regulations, and meet layers of additional rules that most installers never even see. In California, for example, a manufacturer must appear on the CEC list under three separate categories — and even that’s not the end. Many utilities have their own lists, their own proprietary requirements, and in some cases (like certain East Coast utilities), they demand that manufacturers send them free inverters for testing before being approved for grid connection. This is no longer just a manufacturer issue — it’s much bigger than that, and it’s only getting worse. And as for the idea that utility power is inherently superior — I can’t agree with that either. My own co-op has *four times *the outages that my inverter does. Depending on the utility, that claim simply doesn’t hold true. If the trend continues, I believe utility reliability will only keep declining. The real question is if the manufacturer keeps on improving the product and addressing the issues? Or does it make excuses and then launches a "New" product to make up for the shortcoming only to have the same issues with the "New" products. On Sat, Nov 1, 2025 at 9:33 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Recently, I had a manufacturer's rep suggest different battery cable sizes > for eight LFP batteries that were widely varying in distance to the > combiner busbars. I had already made the 2/0 cables exactly the same length > for all batteries with the longest being about 20 feet, so I didn't see the > need to have different size wires. But it goes to show how there are > conflicting suggestions out there on how to approach the issue of cable > length and size. > > When you have a very large battery bank and/or inverter relative to the > load or charging source, the cable size and length can become a pretty moot > point. For example, if you have a 10-battery 160 kWh battery bank that can > accept an 80+ kW charge rate, but you only have 40 kW of PV, you're looking > at max 4 kW of charge per battery, and that assumes you have enough charger > capacity and all of the PV is maxed out at the same time. You might see 80 > amps per battery with 2/0 battery cable, and only at peak sun. The voltage > drop will be next to nothing for reasonably short cable lengths (i.e. 0.63% > for 20 feet of cable). > > The same thing goes for discharge. If you have the same 160 kWh battery > bank, it might be suitable for a home that sees a sustained load of just a > few thousand watts, with spikes in the mid-teens. Even if the house is > burning 20 kW for some time, you're looking at 2 kW per battery, or about > 40 amps. Again, any differences in voltage drop should be inconsequential. > > When manufacturers tell us that we need to keep things the same length and > upsize this and that, the assumption is that we are running these systems > on the edge of the performance window, which is rarely the case in my > experience. Usually, these nuisance alarms and faults occur nowhere near > the edge cases. They occur during everyday ho-hum operation, even at the > bottom of the performance window where voltage drop is a non-factor. > > In my opinion, these inverters are way too sensitive to the bonding issues > we are discussing. From a homeowner's perspective, "this doesn't happen > with the grid, so it shouldn't happen with the inverter." From the solar > pro's perspective, "this didn't happen with the old SW5548 I replaced with > an AIO." Both points are valid. I understand that manufacturers need to > meet certain requirements to list their equipment, but there is theory and > then there is reality. We are trading reliability for safety to the extent > that the reliability level is unacceptable. > > > Don't even get me started about arc-fault sensitivity... > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Fri, Oct 31, 2025 at 11:01 AM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> As to the issue of wire size. >> >> Isn’t really that the OEM's want a specific maximum resistance of the >> wire between the multiple inverters and batteries for that matter? >> >> I am reminded of a project I did 1.5 yrs ago with 10 Fortress Evault max >> and 3 inverters. Of course fortress wanted equal wire lengths between the >> batteries to the combiner. >> Given the number of them, and the layout it was going to take about >> $3000+ more in wire and where to put all that wire. >> I thought about it, and came to the realization that they really just >> wanted equal VD between them. I did the calculations based on max >> load/charge split between the batteries and ran the numbers by their >> senior tech/engineering staff, they agreed. Basically in short, closest >> battery had 1/0, then they worked up to 4/0 at the end. All the VD between >> them was about .5% which they approved. This saved me and the client a ton >> of money and a huge hassle over where to actually store all that wire. >> >> This issue with inverter cables needing to be the same length is the same >> thing. They don’t have to be the same length they have to have a similar >> VD between them. What is that number supposed to be? We are engineers or >> play at being engineers, tell us what we need to know. Do we need to buy a >> resistance tester to confirm the wires meet a specific standard? >> All wires are not the same. What if Im using two different >> brands/ratings of 4/0 because I ran out or my supplier ran out. How am I >> supposed to know? >> >> When I look at the old Trace manual, yes I have them still of the SW >> 4024, they at least had X wire size for Y distance and then different sizes >> for longer distances. Midnight just has 4/0. Luxpower has numerous >> combinations of wire sizes per distance. But I would like to know what >> am I supposed to be aiming for? .5% VD at rated power? Or is it peak power >> or? Or some actual resistance measurement or? or what is it? If I know what >> its supposed to be then I can mix and match wire sizes to get the correct % >> VD. >> >> >> >> Don’t just tell me 4/0. >> >> jay >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 30, 2025, at 7:39 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Jay, what they were telling me is that with multiple inverters, the 4/0 >> cables to each inverter need to be the same length. We did not specifically >> discuss whether positive needed to be the same length as the negative >> cables. I would think it is more important that the positive cables are all >> the same length and that the negative cables are all the same length. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Thu, Oct 30, 2025 at 9:36 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Thx dave. >>> >>> To be clear MP is saying for a single inverter the positive and negative >>> 4/0 to the inverter need to be the same length? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> On Oct 30, 2025, at 7:19 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Here is an installation tips document that I got from Midnite at some >>> point. The battery cables needing to be the same length from the battery >>> combining busbar to the inverters may not be in there, but tech support is >>> very clear about that point. Otherwise, there is some good stuff in here. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 10:20 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Jay >>>> If you call MNP Technical Support they should be able to email you a >>>> link or get you pdf breakdowns of the trainings with best practice >>>> recommendations too >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025, 7:07 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Jay >>>>> >>>>> It is not in the manual, but it is addressed in the training videos. >>>>> Hopefully it will get in the manual on the next revision. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 8:16 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thx william >>>>>> >>>>>> I looked through the install manual and didn’t see the requirements >>>>>> for equal length cables. >>>>>> >>>>>> Where would I find this? Did I miss it or is it in a white paper or? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thx >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 29, 2025, at 11:27 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> Hi Jay >>>>>> >>>>>> The install principles are for both on and off grid. When on grid you >>>>>> have increased issues with current circles, and imbalanced voltage issues >>>>>> from bad wiring practices. >>>>>> On off grid it is current issues, when the installer goes cheap with >>>>>> smaller wire, AU wire and states "the Load is only XX Kw" so I do not need >>>>>> a #2AWG wire on the output". >>>>>> We know that is never true, and the customer will always increase >>>>>> loads or underestimate loads. The inverter also has a large surge capacity, >>>>>> So the inverter will starve for Amps when needed on the DC side, and have a >>>>>> high resistance on the AC side. >>>>>> >>>>>> When you follow the recommended wire sizes in the manual, the errors >>>>>> go to almost zero, unless you have N to G bonds all over the place. That is >>>>>> another issue altogether, that has been talked about. >>>>>> >>>>>> In the end, AIO inverters are different from what us older guys are >>>>>> used to. Before we could get away with all types of shortcuts when the box >>>>>> was full of heavy copper and only made AC power. AIO's are really complex, >>>>>> and the little things in the install matter. The New RULES are making it >>>>>> even harder ESS, PCS, ECT... More rules, more code, more issues. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 1:04 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> HI William >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is for both on and off grid correct? >>>>>>> jay >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Oct 29, 2025, at 10:34 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Dave >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The AC wires need to be the same size and try to have the >>>>>>> same length. This is important because the inverter when stacked "shares" >>>>>>> the power so you want to try to prevent any imbalance in voltage and >>>>>>> resistance issues, or circle issues. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In older stacked systems you have a master and a slave and when the >>>>>>> power demand increases then the slave would take the excess. On AIO's the >>>>>>> power is shared equally all the time (this is a good thing as you don't get >>>>>>> the flicker as the slave picks up). It is important that the install takes >>>>>>> into account the different way the power is used and delivered. Have a >>>>>>> clean install, with the correct sized conductors as specified by the >>>>>>> manufacturer, and try to keep the wire run short and equal when connecting >>>>>>> the inverter AC runs together. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2025 at 9:41 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> William this is really good information, thanks for sharing the >>>>>>>> technical perspective. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have two sites with two of these inverters and both of them are >>>>>>>> exhibiting very similar behavior. On Friday, I was out at the other one to >>>>>>>> wrap up a few things. While I was out there I verified some of the things >>>>>>>> that Midnite tech support suggested like making sure that the AC wires to >>>>>>>> each inverter's grid in and cables are the same length and also from the >>>>>>>> battery bus bar to each inverter are the same length. This was actually a >>>>>>>> bit surprising to me, considering with lead acid it is more important to >>>>>>>> have the battery cables from the bus bar to the batteries be the exact same >>>>>>>> length and the cables to the inverters did not matter as much. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Based on what we were talking about last week, I removed the N-G >>>>>>>> bond in the disconnect for the solar, but I have not yet gone looking for >>>>>>>> other N-G connections in the way that Jason suggested. I have not gotten a >>>>>>>> CA-DC link overvoltage error, but I have still seen some of the symptoms. >>>>>>>> It is not as bad as the other site, but what I notice on the monitoring is >>>>>>>> that in the late afternoon/early evening one inverter shows an unreasonable >>>>>>>> amount of solar (with power going into the grid and into the battery), >>>>>>>> while the other inverter shows low solar (with a ton of power coming out of >>>>>>>> the battery going to the load and the grid), and the battery SOC drops very >>>>>>>> quickly down to the discharge end SOC (on grid) setting of 85%. >>>>>>>> Jason and William, do you know whether any faulty wiring with N-G >>>>>>>> connected in loads on the non-backed up side will affect the system the >>>>>>>> same way? Or is it mostly just important to check for any neutrals >>>>>>>> connected to ground on the backed up loads side? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason, as to why a supply side connection - I was under the >>>>>>>> impression that a Power Control System just effectively limits the amount >>>>>>>> of power that can be sold to the grid. But on a standard 200A service, that >>>>>>>> limits you to about 7.7kw of sell back. I would not want to limit the >>>>>>>> system that much for a roughly 20kw system, even if more than the 7.7kw can >>>>>>>> go to powering loads and battery charging. In the Midnite monitoring, it is >>>>>>>> pretty easy to limit the grid sell back with the "maximum feed in grid >>>>>>>> power" in the Power Control settings. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 8:51 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Most modern all-in-one (AIO) inverters are designed around a non-isolated >>>>>>>>> high-voltage DC bus. This design is what allows manufacturers to advertise >>>>>>>>> higher output numbers — for example, “15–18 kW” — while the inverter may >>>>>>>>> only deliver 12 kW during nighttime operation when PV isn’t contributing >>>>>>>>> (it is also cheaper to build). Without the shared non-isolated DC link, >>>>>>>>> these power-boosted daytime ratings wouldn’t be possible. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A DC-bus overvoltage fault almost always points to one of two >>>>>>>>> issues: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Improper system design >>>>>>>>> 2. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Wiring and installation mistakes >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Off-Grid Example >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A common DIY mistake is pairing a large solar array (because >>>>>>>>> glass is cheap) with a relatively small battery (not as cheap). >>>>>>>>> When the battery is full and a large load suddenly turns off, the >>>>>>>>> excess energy has nowhere to go. The inverter throttles back, but the >>>>>>>>> stored energy can still push the DC-bus voltage up rapidly. If the inverter >>>>>>>>> didn’t protect itself, the capacitors would be at risk — so it shuts down >>>>>>>>> with an overvoltage error. This is also common when using a large >>>>>>>>> retrofitted AC coupled array. >>>>>>>>> Grid-Tie Example >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In grid-connected systems, DC-bus overvoltage is typically caused >>>>>>>>> by wiring mistakes, some common examples are: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Multiple neutral-to-ground bonds >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Reversed hot/neutral at outlets >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A single inverter is usually more forgiving. However, stacked >>>>>>>>> inverters must share phase, neutral, and grounding relationships >>>>>>>>> precisely. Any mis-wiring can create circulating currents. That >>>>>>>>> circulating energy is not accounted for in the inverter’s internal power >>>>>>>>> calculations, so the DC-bus voltage rises unexpectedly — and the inverter >>>>>>>>> shuts down for protection. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A DC Link Overvoltage error is usually not an inverter defect — >>>>>>>>> it’s a system design or system wiring problem 99% of the time. Ensuring >>>>>>>>> proper neutral/ground bonding, correct polarity, adequate battery capacity, >>>>>>>>> and proper commissioning is critical to reliable AIO operation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This behavior is not unique to the MN AIO — all AIO inverters using >>>>>>>>> a non-isolated DC-bus topology share the same fundamental protection >>>>>>>>> limitations. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Inverters are getting more complex to deal with the new rules and >>>>>>>>> utility requirements, this causes reliability issues as we move (or pushed) >>>>>>>>> to full integration with the grid. Because you know we all want the >>>>>>>>> utility to have full control over our systems! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 9:51 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I had an issue with a EG4 inverter and tech support was an >>>>>>>>>> insistent that there was multiple ground neutral bonds in the system. Fully >>>>>>>>>> off grid system with no generator. >>>>>>>>>> It wasn’t the issue but it seems like these inverters are >>>>>>>>>> sensitive to it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is the inverter internally bonded, not that I’m aware of or what >>>>>>>>>> I’ve measured. >>>>>>>>>> And so I can’t figure out what it’s measuring between N/G to have >>>>>>>>>> a potential issue. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe someone can explain? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Oct 24, 2025, at 6:49 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>>> Thanks all for your thoughts here. It seems that the general >>>>>>>>>> consensus so far is that the N-G should be bonded in the solar main >>>>>>>>>> disconnecting means when doing a supply side connection (even if it is not >>>>>>>>>> technically a separate service). When talking with Midnite Power, we made >>>>>>>>>> it very clear that we were talking about a N-G bond in the inverter >>>>>>>>>> combiner / solar main disconnect, and not the backed up loads panel. And >>>>>>>>>> being that NY is still on 2017 code (only going to 2020 next year), with >>>>>>>>>> the ambiguity in the code I am probably okay to undo the N-G connection in >>>>>>>>>> the main solar disconnect. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In this case specifically, we are backing up only a small subset >>>>>>>>>> of loads in the house. The reason for the two inverters is because there is >>>>>>>>>> about 24kw of solar. There is also a manual transfer switch to normally be >>>>>>>>>> able to power the loads off the inverters, but to be able to switch to >>>>>>>>>> powering the loads off the main panel in case of service needed on the >>>>>>>>>> inverters. The neutrals in this system are all connected together, and I am >>>>>>>>>> not sure if that could cause issues. It is probably difficult to explain >>>>>>>>>> all the details in words, so I am copying part of the three line diagram >>>>>>>>>> here. The second picture is the conductor and conduit schedule. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Tom, I get it that the error sounds like it is on the DC side >>>>>>>>>> based on the words, but when I talked to Midnite about it they were pretty >>>>>>>>>> clear about it being due to multiple N-G bonds and they did not mention >>>>>>>>>> that it could have anything to do with the DC side. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jason, that is a good idea as well to check the loads that got >>>>>>>>>> moved over to see if there are any other inadvertent N-G bonds on the >>>>>>>>>> premises. This also similar to what Midnite suggested, which was to lift >>>>>>>>>> the N-G bond in the main panel and then see if they are still bonded >>>>>>>>>> somewhere else. It seems like it can be a slow process to track that down >>>>>>>>>> with power cut to the house, but that might be what I have to try if >>>>>>>>>> removing the N-G bond in the solar main disconnect does not help. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So, my main questions to anyone who has an opinion here are two >>>>>>>>>> fold: >>>>>>>>>> 1. Do you bond the N-G in general in the main solar disconnect >>>>>>>>>> for a supply side connection? >>>>>>>>>> 2. Specifically with the Midnite AIO inverters, has anyone else >>>>>>>>>> had issues with this "CA-DC link Overvoltage error" due to having a second >>>>>>>>>> N-G bond in the house? (one in the main service panel, and one in the solar >>>>>>>>>> main disconnect if it is a supply side connection). Or have you seen this >>>>>>>>>> error and found that it was caused by something else? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 5:25 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I agree. It is not a separate service. It is a "tap" of the >>>>>>>>>>> existing service (I use that term loosely here). The additional service >>>>>>>>>>> disconnect for the supply side interconnection should have L1, L2, and N >>>>>>>>>>> connected ahead of the premises main disconnect with no EGC. There should >>>>>>>>>>> be a N-G bonding jumper in the PV service disconnect. Then there should be >>>>>>>>>>> no N-G bonds downstream of both the premises main disconnect and the PV >>>>>>>>>>> service disconnect. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Basically, it's the same as two main disconnects running from a >>>>>>>>>>> meter enclosure. Each of the service disconnects has a N-G bond required. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Some AHJs (the crazy ones) require an EGC between the enclosure >>>>>>>>>>> where the supply side connection is made and the PV service disconnect. >>>>>>>>>>> This creates a parallel fault path, and should not be allowed, in my humble >>>>>>>>>>> opinion. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Now it sounds like you might be doing a partial home backup. The >>>>>>>>>>> issue there is that sometimes the loads or enclosures you moved over the >>>>>>>>>>> backup load panel have inadvertent N-G bonds. Sometimes it's as simple as >>>>>>>>>>> someone who got creative and used a ground as a neutral in a switch box. I >>>>>>>>>>> say simple, but that can be hard to track down. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> When Midnite said to remove it from the inverter distribution >>>>>>>>>>> panel, they were probably talking about the protected loads panel. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think more information is needed. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025 at 11:03 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My interpretation, and the way it was explained to me by both >>>>>>>>>>>> Ryan Mayfield and Kyle Bolger(several years ago at this point, popular >>>>>>>>>>>> opinion may have changed since). Is that it is not a seperate service. >>>>>>>>>>>> It is however required to have a ground-neutral bond( though >>>>>>>>>>>> in my opinion pointless and redundant as there is a bond in the enclosure >>>>>>>>>>>> where the tap is made). If it gives you any issue, ensure as close to equal >>>>>>>>>>>> potential to the grounding electrode as possible(and make sure your neutral >>>>>>>>>>>> is appropriately sized). I personally don't see the point but it is an NEC >>>>>>>>>>>> requirement >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2025, 6:08 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> For years I have understood that when doing a supply side >>>>>>>>>>>>> connection, you are supposed to bond the neutral to ground in the solar >>>>>>>>>>>>> service disconnect. I have a Midnite AIO system with two inverters (set up >>>>>>>>>>>>> as a supply side connection) that recently was getting a CA-DC link >>>>>>>>>>>>> Overvoltage error. When talking to Midnite, their first response was to >>>>>>>>>>>>> make sure that there was only one N-G bond in the whole system. When I >>>>>>>>>>>>> mentioned that the solar is a separate service and thus there is a N-G bond >>>>>>>>>>>>> in both the main panel and the inverter distribution panel, they said to >>>>>>>>>>>>> remove it from the inverter distribution panel. I want to make the system >>>>>>>>>>>>> work right, but I also am hesitant to do something against how I have >>>>>>>>>>>>> understood the NEC to be for a long time. I am curious if you all have >>>>>>>>>>>>> thoughts on this or run into a similar situation. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>>>>>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>>>>>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> | Ithaca, >>>>>>>>>>>>> NY 14850 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> c: >>>>>>>>>>>>> (607) >>>>>>>>>>>>> 270-0370 >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon Nov 3 13:33:46 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2025 13:33:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Micro vs (Modern) string inverter efficiency comparison Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone have any real world data comparing the efficiency of microinverters vs. string inverters in a partial shading scenario? We all know the old selling point of micros with partial shading, saying that if one panel in a string is shaded, you lose production from the whole string. But that is not the case anymore with at least SMA inverters with their global MPPT sweeps. If one panel is shaded, you lose the voltage from that one panel, and that is it, the rest of the string operates normally. In this case, it seems like micros don't actually add much value in a partially shaded system. I am thinking specifically of something like a fixed tilt ground mount that will be getting somewhere near 70% TSRF. So there are no issues about modules facing different directions. I am curious if there are actually any significant differences in power production with a microinverter vs a string inverter system in this case. Unfortunately, any article written about this subject assumes using an older string inverter where one panel being shaded will knock out the whole string, in which case the answer is pretty clear. Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Nov 3 14:23:44 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2025 19:23:44 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converting an outback radiant 4048 to an 8048 Message-ID: <7B131518-CDD0-495A-ACB4-7DCFC1311F1B@solarwork.com> There is a procedure along with a tech code which I have, to get into the installer menu in a radian. Does anybody know the steps to get into the installer menu? Thank you in advance as always Dana Orzel C: 208.721.7003 E- dana at solarwork.com From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon Nov 3 21:38:28 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2025 21:38:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converting an outback radiant 4048 to an 8048 In-Reply-To: <7B131518-CDD0-495A-ACB4-7DCFC1311F1B@solarwork.com> References: <7B131518-CDD0-495A-ACB4-7DCFC1311F1B@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Dana, Interesting. The procedure as I recall to input the installer menu code is in the last quick start guide they published, along with the generic password itself. it's needed to turn on AC coupling, maybe also for your upgrade. And I was told 3 years ago by OB that you can't just add a 4kw inverter module to ramp up a 4k to an 8k. As a result I upgraded my customer from a 4048 to an 8048. I still have the 4048 you can pull the module out of. I'll sell the whole inverter cheap. On Mon, Nov 3, 2025 at 2:25 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > There is a procedure along with a tech code which I have, to get into the > installer menu in a radian. Does anybody know the steps to get into the > installer menu? > Thank you in advance as always > Dana Orzel > C: 208.721.7003 > E- dana at solarwork.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Nov 3 21:49:35 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2025 19:49:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converting an outback radiant 4048 to an 8048 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <945D0AC7-2FCC-4F0F-A228-7791A8722772@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Nov 4 09:30:41 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2025 09:30:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] M-190 Warranty Expiration Message-ID: <3ffb2aaf7a1c13b376db872a6e6bd96a@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, The 15 year warranty is expiring on the Enphase M-190 microinverters. Enphase does not sell the replacements they used to provide under warranty. The best they can do is sell M-215s, that hopefully will register on the same model Envoy. The tech support people I have talked to do not understand that the M-190s do not have a trunk cable. Therefore they have been no help in finding the adapter cable. Does anyone know where I can get that cable? Does anyone have a stash of either the replacement M-190s with the IQ architecture or 215s with the trunk cable? Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue Nov 4 09:40:22 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2025 09:40:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] M-190 Warranty Expiration In-Reply-To: <3ffb2aaf7a1c13b376db872a6e6bd96a@redwoodalliance.org> References: <3ffb2aaf7a1c13b376db872a6e6bd96a@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I know I have some 215s, not sure about the trunk Cable. Please contact me off the list and I’ll see what I can find. How many 215s do you need? *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Tue, Nov 4, 2025 at 9:33 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > The 15 year warranty is expiring on the Enphase M-190 microinverters. > Enphase does not sell the replacements they used to provide under warranty. > > The best they can do is sell M-215s, that hopefully will register on the > same model Envoy. The tech support people I have talked to do not > understand that the M-190s do not have a trunk cable. Therefore they have > been no help in finding the adapter cable. > > Does anyone know where I can get that cable? > > Does anyone have a stash of either the replacement M-190s with the IQ > architecture or 215s with the trunk cable? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Nov 4 10:47:14 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2025 07:47:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converting an outback radiant 4048 to an 8048 In-Reply-To: <945D0AC7-2FCC-4F0F-A228-7791A8722772@gmail.com> References: <945D0AC7-2FCC-4F0F-A228-7791A8722772@gmail.com> Message-ID: Friends: I have done this once to a two Radian system. Lones told me this is straightforward but not supported. I bolted in the modules and updated the firmware. Set module control to Both. It’s been a while so I hope I am not forgetting any steps. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Mon, Nov 3, 2025 at 6:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I don’t remember hearing you can’t upgrade. You could ask zonna what the > board part numbers are between the 4 and the 8. > I know you can turn an 8 into a 4. > > But the power modules would need to be same rev. > > And if it’s a 4048 not an A, I think it’s about impossible to find > anything to work on the non A variants > > Good luck > > Jay > > > > > On Nov 3, 2025, at 7:39 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Dana, > Interesting. The procedure as I recall to input the installer menu code is > in the last quick start guide they published, along with the generic > password itself. it's needed to turn on AC coupling, maybe also for your > upgrade. > > And I was told 3 years ago by OB that you can't just add a 4kw inverter > module to ramp up a 4k to an 8k. As a result I upgraded my customer from a > 4048 to an 8048. I still have the 4048 you can pull the module out of. I'll > sell the whole inverter cheap. > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2025 at 2:25 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> There is a procedure along with a tech code which I have, to get into the >> installer menu in a radian. Does anybody know the steps to get into the >> installer menu? >> Thank you in advance as always >> Dana Orzel >> C: 208.721.7003 >> E- dana at solarwork.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Nov 3 20:15:44 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2025 20:15:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Micro vs (Modern) string inverter efficiency comparison In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Nov 4 13:39:37 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2025 10:39:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Micro vs (Modern) string inverter efficiency comparison In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave - We have a decent sized fleet of systems with both microinverters and string inverters. For the microinverter systems, most of them are SunPower ACPV with the micro built in at the factory. Annual production on these sites is consistently 7% over PVWatts simulations and often hitting 15% or 20% over our estimates year after year. Starting a few years ago, we started introducing Tesla PV inverters with non-SunPower modules. Production on these sites on average seems a bit lower, more like a couple percent higher than what PVWatts simulations show. We've changed two variables - the modules are not SunPower and we switched to string inverters, so it is hard to pinpoint the exact causes of annual performance reduction. You might find this Tesla whitepaper interesting regardless of whether you install Tesla or not. There is a trend to add more MPPTs with lower input voltages - this adds a lot of design flexibility to deal with shade, differing roof orientations, module mismatch or uneven soiling, and even different module types on one inverter. https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/Tesla_Solar_Inverter_Architecture_White_Paper_NA-EN_12212022 My current take on it is that micros probably do produce more per DC watt on average, especially for heavily shaded roofs. Is the increased cost worth it? That is the question. Long term system reliability is perhaps more important of a factor. August On Mon, Nov 3, 2025 at 10:35 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > Does anyone have any real world data comparing the efficiency of > microinverters vs. string inverters in a partial shading scenario? We all > know the old selling point of micros with partial shading, saying that if > one panel in a string is shaded, you lose production from the whole > string. But that is not the case anymore with at least SMA inverters with > their global MPPT sweeps. If one panel is shaded, you lose the voltage from > that one panel, and that is it, the rest of the string operates normally. > In this case, it seems like micros don't actually add much value in a > partially shaded system. > > I am thinking specifically of something like a fixed tilt ground mount > that will be getting somewhere near 70% TSRF. So there are no issues about > modules facing different directions. I am curious if there are actually any > significant differences in power production with a microinverter vs a > string inverter system in this case. Unfortunately, any article written > about this subject assumes using an older string inverter where one panel > being shaded will knock out the whole string, in which case the answer is > pretty clear. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 11:59:36 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2025 08:59:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 0% on FNDC readings yesterday and today Message-ID: Wrenches, I know some of you don't utilize the FNDC due to it's inability to always track accurately and often conflict with battery manufacturer's means of reporting SOC. I still find it extremely useful and implement along with educating the clients and of course frequent oversight. Oddly though, today I have a handful reporting a false 0% SOC. Seems that most are on sites with Powerflo batteries however quite a few with Blue Ions as well. Anyone else seeing this odd anomaly that just started yesterday? At least 10% of them are showing 0%, 1/3 of those are systems that have been offline for a bit as well. Additionally, about a month or two ago a 15th device popped up in the advanced menus on the Hub Devices page in Opticsre. It has a ??? in the Type field, Battery in the Name field and 123456 for serial number. I'm not seeing this 15th device on every site but definitely a reasonable amount of them. Some with Hub4's and some with Hub10's. Everyone else with a fleet of systems in Opticsre seeing these oddities too? Late to head to a Midnite job today and doubt Outback's chat would shed light on it anyway. Trying to ease my conspiratorial mind that Outback is out to get me haha! Nick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 12:24:14 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2025 10:24:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 0% on FNDC readings yesterday and today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Nick, Yes, I'm seeing the same anomaly. I also see the port 15 device. I assume they are attempting to make the Outback equipment able to talk to a virtual BMS device or something. Also, the fndc device itself is still displaying SOC, it's just not linked to that same graphic on the overview page. Strange Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* On Fri, Nov 7, 2025, 10:00 AM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > I know some of you don't utilize the FNDC due to it's inability to always > track accurately and often conflict with battery manufacturer's means of > reporting SOC. I still find it extremely useful and implement along with > educating the clients and of course frequent oversight. Oddly though, today > I have a handful reporting a false 0% SOC. Seems that most are on sites > with Powerflo batteries however quite a few with Blue Ions as well. Anyone > else seeing this odd anomaly that just started yesterday? At least 10% of > them are showing 0%, 1/3 of those are systems that have been offline for a > bit as well. > > Additionally, about a month or two ago a 15th device popped up in the > advanced menus on the Hub Devices page in Opticsre. It has a ??? in the > Type field, Battery in the Name field and 123456 for serial number. I'm not > seeing this 15th device on every site but definitely a reasonable amount of > them. Some with Hub4's and some with Hub10's. > > Everyone else with a fleet of systems in Opticsre seeing these oddities > too? Late to head to a Midnite job today and doubt Outback's chat would > shed light on it anyway. Trying to ease my conspiratorial mind that Outback > is out to get me haha! > > Nick > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 12:45:05 2025 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2025 09:45:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 0% on FNDC readings yesterday and today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Nick, I took answering this same situation on the majority of our sites. Systems seem to be running normally otherwise. I suppose it's good it seems like they are working on something rather than full abandonment! Hopefully they will iron out the wrinkles. Cheers! Kirpal On Fri, Nov 7, 2025, 9:26 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Nick, > > Yes, I'm seeing the same anomaly. I also see the port 15 device. I assume > they are attempting to make the Outback equipment able to talk to a virtual > BMS device or something. Also, the fndc device itself is still displaying > SOC, it's just not linked to that same graphic on the overview page. > > Strange > > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2025, 10:00 AM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> I know some of you don't utilize the FNDC due to it's inability to always >> track accurately and often conflict with battery manufacturer's means of >> reporting SOC. I still find it extremely useful and implement along with >> educating the clients and of course frequent oversight. Oddly though, today >> I have a handful reporting a false 0% SOC. Seems that most are on sites >> with Powerflo batteries however quite a few with Blue Ions as well. Anyone >> else seeing this odd anomaly that just started yesterday? At least 10% of >> them are showing 0%, 1/3 of those are systems that have been offline for a >> bit as well. >> >> Additionally, about a month or two ago a 15th device popped up in the >> advanced menus on the Hub Devices page in Opticsre. It has a ??? in the >> Type field, Battery in the Name field and 123456 for serial number. I'm not >> seeing this 15th device on every site but definitely a reasonable amount of >> them. Some with Hub4's and some with Hub10's. >> >> Everyone else with a fleet of systems in Opticsre seeing these oddities >> too? Late to head to a Midnite job today and doubt Outback's chat would >> shed light on it anyway. Trying to ease my conspiratorial mind that Outback >> is out to get me haha! >> >> Nick >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nathanjstumpff at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 13:11:36 2025 From: nathanjstumpff at gmail.com (Nathan J. Stumpff) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2025 10:11:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 4th gen ConnectDER Message-ID: Wrenches, Please contact me off list if you have a 60A 4th Gen ConnectDER MMD you could sell me. Preferably C-B-4-22-60 but C-B-4-10-60 could work too. The newer 5th gen units are not yet approved by my utility. Trying to build my own system before credits expire. Thanks, -Nathan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Nov 7 14:07:13 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2025 13:07:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 0% on FNDC readings yesterday and today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What a Shoot Show. I am not sure why they are editing live code… I have a few of my OpticsRE customers showing this. I think the pattern that I see is those customers that had some particular Battery Type assignment prior to live code edit went to blank. Setting: click the little gear icon (upper right of Optics) / System Tools / Devices / Battery Type. The old choices are missing… If, for some reason Lithium Ion or Lead-Acid was then chosen or by some other random reason, Outback added Port 15 to the site, the values are not real. Cluster-Fluke #2 If you happen to choose Lead-Acid as Battery Type, it appears as though all the Charge Controller and Inverter settings get changed to some generic AGM settings???? How about a random customer who happens to be running Open-Loop on 15S LiFePO4 batteries??? Are they Forked? My patience and trust in Outback is waining. And by association, that will be assigned to EG4 as well….. Cluster Fluke #3. I called one customer that has separate BMS metrology to confirm actual battery voltages and all is well and the OpticsRE values don’t really align with real settings. Not nice. Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Nov 7, 2025, at 10:59 AM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I know some of you don't utilize the FNDC due to it's inability to always track accurately and often conflict with battery manufacturer's means of reporting SOC. I still find it extremely useful and implement along with educating the clients and of course frequent oversight. Oddly though, today I have a handful reporting a false 0% SOC. Seems that most are on sites with Powerflo batteries however quite a few with Blue Ions as well. Anyone else seeing this odd anomaly that just started yesterday? At least 10% of them are showing 0%, 1/3 of those are systems that have been offline for a bit as well. > > Additionally, about a month or two ago a 15th device popped up in the advanced menus on the Hub Devices page in Opticsre. It has a ??? in the Type field, Battery in the Name field and 123456 for serial number. I'm not seeing this 15th device on every site but definitely a reasonable amount of them. Some with Hub4's and some with Hub10's. > > Everyone else with a fleet of systems in Opticsre seeing these oddities too? Late to head to a Midnite job today and doubt Outback's chat would shed light on it anyway. Trying to ease my conspiratorial mind that Outback is out to get me haha! > > Nick > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 16:19:54 2025 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2025 16:19:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 0% on FNDC readings yesterday and today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40356D2B-8512-4602-BF88-B54109E3E037@gmail.com> So…… Not an issue with an Outback, but same deal, as of this past Monday, the 3rd. Off-Grid (long term) customer lost their AGS & Comms between their 12k Sol-Ark & Blue Planet Energy Blue Ion 2.0. Gen will start, charges, but will not stop. e-Gauge can still see the system, but nothing from the battery since Monday. 5 yr. old system. Replaced dual Magnum 4448 PAE’s. Working like clockwork until Monday. Sol-Ark Level 2 Tech said, unplug the Comm cable. Use Voltage for the AGS. I said, this is unacceptable. He said, B.P.E. is not an approved battery partner, I said, It was when I installed it. So, now I just finally received a response from Blue Planet Energy & they want $250.00/ hour to do Tech Support & will not support the 15 Year Warranty for any unpaid Tech Support Invoices! (After paying a Fortune for their battery!) Who is hacking these systems??? Sol-Ark? Outback? Who’s next??? Sorry, I should’ve started a new thread… Amanda Potter Energy Storage Systems NABCEP PVIP Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC (315) 212-2114 > On Nov 7, 2025, at 2:09 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > What a Shoot Show. I am not sure why they are editing live code… > > I have a few of my OpticsRE customers showing this. I think the pattern that I see is those customers that had some particular Battery Type assignment prior to live code edit went to blank. > > Setting: click the little gear icon (upper right of Optics) / System Tools / Devices / Battery Type. The old choices are missing… If, for some reason Lithium Ion or Lead-Acid was then chosen or by some other random reason, Outback added Port 15 to the site, the values are not real. Cluster-Fluke #2 > > If you happen to choose Lead-Acid as Battery Type, it appears as though all the Charge Controller and Inverter settings get changed to some generic AGM settings???? How about a random customer who happens to be running Open-Loop on 15S LiFePO4 batteries??? Are they Forked? > > My patience and trust in Outback is waining. And by association, that will be assigned to EG4 as well….. Cluster Fluke #3. > > I called one customer that has separate BMS metrology to confirm actual battery voltages and all is well and the OpticsRE values don’t really align with real settings. > > Not nice. > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > >> On Nov 7, 2025, at 10:59 AM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> >> I know some of you don't utilize the FNDC due to it's inability to always track accurately and often conflict with battery manufacturer's means of reporting SOC. I still find it extremely useful and implement along with educating the clients and of course frequent oversight. Oddly though, today I have a handful reporting a false 0% SOC. Seems that most are on sites with Powerflo batteries however quite a few with Blue Ions as well. Anyone else seeing this odd anomaly that just started yesterday? At least 10% of them are showing 0%, 1/3 of those are systems that have been offline for a bit as well. >> >> Additionally, about a month or two ago a 15th device popped up in the advanced menus on the Hub Devices page in Opticsre. It has a ??? in the Type field, Battery in the Name field and 123456 for serial number. I'm not seeing this 15th device on every site but definitely a reasonable amount of them. Some with Hub4's and some with Hub10's. >> >> Everyone else with a fleet of systems in Opticsre seeing these oddities too? Late to head to a Midnite job today and doubt Outback's chat would shed light on it anyway. Trying to ease my conspiratorial mind that Outback is out to get me haha! >> >> Nick >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 20:42:28 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2025 18:42:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 0% on FNDC readings yesterday and today In-Reply-To: <40356D2B-8512-4602-BF88-B54109E3E037@gmail.com> References: <40356D2B-8512-4602-BF88-B54109E3E037@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Amanda, Very frustrating for sure. However, my take on Blue Planet charging a fee to provide tech support for you is that it is *much better* than full abandonment, and really much better for your clients. I think getting a highly skilled engineer that knows a product really well is very worth it and I hope it continues. Industry wide, our warranties are precarious and worth very little, so I'd rather talk to someone smart for a fee than full silence. It's not fair but that's what I see. I would recommend being polite and patient, even the poor tech support folks deserve our respect while we are exasperated! Good luck! On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 2:21 PM Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > So…… > Not an issue with an Outback, but same deal, as of this past Monday, the > 3rd. > > Off-Grid (long term) customer lost their AGS & Comms between their 12k > Sol-Ark & Blue Planet Energy Blue Ion 2.0. > Gen will start, charges, but will not stop. > > e-Gauge can still see the system, but nothing from the battery since > Monday. > > 5 yr. old system. > Replaced dual Magnum 4448 PAE’s. > Working like clockwork until Monday. > > Sol-Ark Level 2 Tech said, unplug the Comm cable. > Use Voltage for the AGS. > I said, this is unacceptable. > He said, B.P.E. is not an approved battery partner, I said, It was when I > installed it. > > So, now I just finally received a response from Blue Planet Energy & they > want $250.00/ hour to do Tech Support & will not support the 15 Year > Warranty for any unpaid Tech Support Invoices! > (After paying a Fortune for their battery!) > > Who is hacking these systems??? > Sol-Ark? > Outback? > > Who’s next??? > > Sorry, I should’ve started a new thread… > > Amanda Potter > Energy Storage Systems > NABCEP PVIP > Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC > (315) 212-2114 > > On Nov 7, 2025, at 2:09 PM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > What a Shoot Show. I am not sure why they are editing live code… > > I have a few of my OpticsRE customers showing this. I think the pattern > that I see is those customers that had some particular Battery Type > assignment prior to live code edit went to blank. > > Setting: click the little gear icon (upper right of Optics) / System Tools > / Devices / Battery Type. The old choices are missing… If, for some reason > Lithium Ion or Lead-Acid was then chosen or by some other random reason, > Outback added Port 15 to the site, the values are not real. Cluster-Fluke #2 > > If you happen to choose Lead-Acid as Battery Type, it appears as though > all the Charge Controller and Inverter settings get changed to some generic > AGM settings???? How about a random customer who happens to be running > Open-Loop on 15S LiFePO4 batteries??? Are they Forked? > > My patience and trust in Outback is waining. And by association, that will > be assigned to EG4 as well….. Cluster Fluke #3. > > I called one customer that has separate BMS metrology to confirm actual > battery voltages and all is well and the OpticsRE values don’t really align > with real settings. > > Not nice. > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* > * • Solar Commander Remote Power* > > * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection *maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > On Nov 7, 2025, at 10:59 AM, Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I know some of you don't utilize the FNDC due to it's inability to always > track accurately and often conflict with battery manufacturer's means of > reporting SOC. I still find it extremely useful and implement along with > educating the clients and of course frequent oversight. Oddly though, today > I have a handful reporting a false 0% SOC. Seems that most are on sites > with Powerflo batteries however quite a few with Blue Ions as well. Anyone > else seeing this odd anomaly that just started yesterday? At least 10% of > them are showing 0%, 1/3 of those are systems that have been offline for a > bit as well. > > Additionally, about a month or two ago a 15th device popped up in the > advanced menus on the Hub Devices page in Opticsre. It has a ??? in the > Type field, Battery in the Name field and 123456 for serial number. I'm not > seeing this 15th device on every site but definitely a reasonable amount of > them. Some with Hub4's and some with Hub10's. > > Everyone else with a fleet of systems in Opticsre seeing these oddities > too? Late to head to a Midnite job today and doubt Outback's chat would > shed light on it anyway. Trying to ease my conspiratorial mind that Outback > is out to get me haha! > > Nick > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 21:10:49 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2025 21:10:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 0% on FNDC readings yesterday and today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nick, I had the same call from a customer reporting 0% today. The batteries are (5) Fortress e-Flex 5.4 The preassembled Radian came with the flexNetDC which I normally don't install for the same reasons. I was stumped until now. Obviously there is a problem with Optics or the FNDC. John Blittersdorf Off Grid Vermont On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:01 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > I know some of you don't utilize the FNDC due to it's inability to always > track accurately and often conflict with battery manufacturer's means of > reporting SOC. I still find it extremely useful and implement along with > educating the clients and of course frequent oversight. Oddly though, today > I have a handful reporting a false 0% SOC. Seems that most are on sites > with Powerflo batteries however quite a few with Blue Ions as well. Anyone > else seeing this odd anomaly that just started yesterday? At least 10% of > them are showing 0%, 1/3 of those are systems that have been offline for a > bit as well. > > Additionally, about a month or two ago a 15th device popped up in the > advanced menus on the Hub Devices page in Opticsre. It has a ??? in the > Type field, Battery in the Name field and 123456 for serial number. I'm not > seeing this 15th device on every site but definitely a reasonable amount of > them. Some with Hub4's and some with Hub10's. > > Everyone else with a fleet of systems in Opticsre seeing these oddities > too? Late to head to a Midnite job today and doubt Outback's chat would > shed light on it anyway. Trying to ease my conspiratorial mind that Outback > is out to get me haha! > > Nick > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 21:33:41 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2025 18:33:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 0% on FNDC readings yesterday and today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oddly enough l have a few with blue planet doing this same thing, in the past l get the batteries fully charged then reset the FNDC but if this is more global then a possible SW update may be it but l dont think it would do that. Funtimes On Fri, Nov 7, 2025, 6:12 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Nick, > I had the same call from a customer reporting 0% today. The batteries > are (5) Fortress e-Flex 5.4 The preassembled Radian came with the flexNetDC > which I normally don't install for the same reasons. I was stumped until > now. Obviously there is a problem with Optics or the FNDC. > > John Blittersdorf > Off Grid Vermont > > On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:01 PM Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> I know some of you don't utilize the FNDC due to it's inability to always >> track accurately and often conflict with battery manufacturer's means of >> reporting SOC. I still find it extremely useful and implement along with >> educating the clients and of course frequent oversight. Oddly though, today >> I have a handful reporting a false 0% SOC. Seems that most are on sites >> with Powerflo batteries however quite a few with Blue Ions as well. Anyone >> else seeing this odd anomaly that just started yesterday? At least 10% of >> them are showing 0%, 1/3 of those are systems that have been offline for a >> bit as well. >> >> Additionally, about a month or two ago a 15th device popped up in the >> advanced menus on the Hub Devices page in Opticsre. It has a ??? in the >> Type field, Battery in the Name field and 123456 for serial number. I'm not >> seeing this 15th device on every site but definitely a reasonable amount of >> them. Some with Hub4's and some with Hub10's. >> >> Everyone else with a fleet of systems in Opticsre seeing these oddities >> too? Late to head to a Midnite job today and doubt Outback's chat would >> shed light on it anyway. Trying to ease my conspiratorial mind that Outback >> is out to get me haha! >> >> Nick >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Fri Nov 7 21:53:54 2025 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2025 21:53:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 0% on FNDC readings yesterday and today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A3F3F4D-856E-4116-80DA-0A0D08DEF4C6@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Sat Nov 8 16:26:02 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2025 13:26:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 0% on FNDC readings yesterday and today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just looked at my OpticsRE, and most of my two dozen or so systems are showing 0% SOC. Even some that have been offline for months. If you go in and look at the graphs, it's showing SOC properly on them (on mine at least), just not on the overview or entry dashboard with all the systems. And oddly, two or three of them are showing SOC correctly on the dashboard. Seems like a database error of some sort. Zeke -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Sat Nov 8 16:28:19 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2025 13:28:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 0% on FNDC readings yesterday and today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And yes, I'm seeing that hub15 on them as well. None of my systems have closed loop communications, or any communications with the batteries... so odd that it's trying to show a BMS communication of some sort. Zeke On Sat, Nov 8, 2025 at 1:26 PM Zeke Yewdall wrote: > I just looked at my OpticsRE, and most of my two dozen or so systems are > showing 0% SOC. Even some that have been offline for months. If you go in > and look at the graphs, it's showing SOC properly on them (on mine at > least), just not on the overview or entry dashboard with all the systems. > And oddly, two or three of them are showing SOC correctly on the > dashboard. Seems like a database error of some sort. > > Zeke > -- Zeke Yewdall PV Engineer NABCEP #031508-89 zeke at darkforestsolar.com 303-523-3592 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 16:43:21 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2025 14:43:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 0% on FNDC readings yesterday and today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05F3794C-5F65-45C6-BC92-6F7136A12E67@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Nov 8 19:07:51 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2025 16:07:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 0% on FNDC readings yesterday and today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Firmeware revisions? That is what it was with Schneider last month. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-11-08 1:26 pm, Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches wrote: > I just looked at my OpticsRE, and most of my two dozen or so systems > are showing 0% SOC. Even some that have been offline for months. If > you go in and look at the graphs, it's showing SOC properly on them (on > mine at least), just not on the overview or entry dashboard with all > the systems. And oddly, two or three of them are showing SOC correctly > on the dashboard. Seems like a database error of some sort. > > Zeke > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Nov 10 16:55:42 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2025 14:55:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 0% on FNDC readings yesterday and today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C7BD65B-3C0C-417F-BEC9-122894DE3C6E@gmail.com> According to OB community forum, You have to set the battery type to lead acid regardless of actual type and the SOC/FNDC will read correctly. But no where does it say where am I supposed to change battery type? And lots of confusion on the forum about if making this change effects settings in other places. OB just keeps screwing up, amazing jay From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Tue Nov 11 13:12:31 2025 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 11:12:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC Message-ID: Wrenches, On the attached product spec sheet for Ideal Copper Crimps (aka Buchanan crimps) you'll see that max voltage for the crimp is rated at 600V but an asterisk indicates up to 1000V when "in fixtures and signs". In our application this is a 1000v system and we are joining pairs of #10 PV wires. The junctions are made in a rail-mounted, plastic j-box. We could not find the definition of "fixture" as it might pertain to this situation in the NEC and as such are interested to learn more about using Buchanan crimps for 1000V applications. [image: image.png] Cheers, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] Sam Haraldson Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 208878 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IDEALIndustries-Crimp Connectors.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1647096 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 15:49:00 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 13:49:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 16:15:10 2025 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 16:15:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We had an inspection agency that was giving us a hard time about using buchanan crimps in junction boxes because they aren't rated for outdoor/damp locations. The point was made (on this listserve) that "*if the inside of a 3R enclosure isn't considered dry enough for a buchanan crimp/cap, then there's millions of 3R panels with breakers and busbars in them that would have the same problem*". The inspection agency finally relented. We put a little No-Alox in the cap. I know that's not what your initial post was about, but tossing that in for consideration just in case... Adam Katzman (he/him) Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 3:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Sam > > I can’t imagine being just copper it would matter, the AHJ might have a > different opinion however > > Question. > How are you insulating them? > > Jay > > > On Nov 11, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Wrenches, > > On the attached product spec sheet for Ideal Copper Crimps (aka Buchanan > crimps) you'll see that max voltage for the crimp is rated at 600V but an > asterisk indicates up to 1000V when "in fixtures and signs". In our > application this is a 1000v system and we are joining pairs of #10 PV > wires. The junctions are made in a rail-mounted, plastic j-box. We could > not find the definition of "fixture" as it might pertain to this situation > in the NEC and as such are interested to learn more about using Buchanan > crimps for 1000V applications. > > > > > Cheers, > Sam > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > Sam Haraldson > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Nov 11 16:15:45 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 13:15:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://www.grainger.com/product/MERSEN-Power-Distribution-Block-1-25CC04 I prefer terminals fastened in place and accessible tor testing. One option is above. Or: https://www.rexelusa.com/p/2986/allen-bradley/terminal-block-150a-1000v-ac-dc-gray-35mm-feed-through/662073058373/1492-j35 https://www.phoenixcontact.com/en-us/products/multi-level-terminal-block-pttb-4-l-1000v-3062744 Or McMaster-Carr: 7641K52 William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 10:15 AM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > On the attached product spec sheet for Ideal Copper Crimps (aka Buchanan > crimps) you'll see that max voltage for the crimp is rated at 600V but an > asterisk indicates up to 1000V when "in fixtures and signs". In our > application this is a 1000v system and we are joining pairs of #10 PV > wires. The junctions are made in a rail-mounted, plastic j-box. We could > not find the definition of "fixture" as it might pertain to this situation > in the NEC and as such are interested to learn more about using Buchanan > crimps for 1000V applications. > > [image: image.png] > > Cheers, > Sam > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > Sam Haraldson > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 208878 bytes Desc: not available URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Tue Nov 11 16:30:56 2025 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 13:30:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We use MC4 plugs to splice #10 wire inside j-boxes. You need a slightly larger (or longer) box, but you get a great, watertight connection, simple test points, easy string isolation, etc. And they are UL Listed for 1000 (or 1500) V. I looked for years for UL listed (not just UL recognized) splice terminals, but all of the reasonably-priced DIN rail terminal block options seem to be made to go inside factory-assembled machines, and are UL recognized only. Ilsco makes UL Listed PDBs, but they are larger, MUCH more expensive, and really not practical for splicing lots of 1:1 #10 wires. (And yes, many inspectors around here are willing to die on the Listed-vs-Recognized hill...) Blake On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 1:16 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > https://www.grainger.com/product/MERSEN-Power-Distribution-Block-1-25CC04 > > > I prefer terminals fastened in place and accessible tor testing. One > option is above. > > Or: > > > https://www.rexelusa.com/p/2986/allen-bradley/terminal-block-150a-1000v-ac-dc-gray-35mm-feed-through/662073058373/1492-j35 > > > https://www.phoenixcontact.com/en-us/products/multi-level-terminal-block-pttb-4-l-1000v-3062744 > > > Or McMaster-Carr: > > 7641K52 > > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 10:15 AM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> On the attached product spec sheet for Ideal Copper Crimps (aka Buchanan >> crimps) you'll see that max voltage for the crimp is rated at 600V but an >> asterisk indicates up to 1000V when "in fixtures and signs". In our >> application this is a 1000v system and we are joining pairs of #10 PV >> wires. The junctions are made in a rail-mounted, plastic j-box. We could >> not find the definition of "fixture" as it might pertain to this situation >> in the NEC and as such are interested to learn more about using Buchanan >> crimps for 1000V applications. >> >> [image: image.png] >> >> Cheers, >> Sam >> >> [image: OnSite Energy] >> >> Sam Haraldson >> Operations Specialist >> (406) 551-6135 >> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >> >> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >> [image: B Corporation] >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 [image: sunlightandpower.com] 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 [image: https://www.amicussolar.com/] [image: https://calssa.org/] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 208878 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Nov 11 16:42:04 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 16:42:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Adam, This response is just to you. Is NYSERDA the inspection agency you are talking about? Cause they have given me issues about using Wago Nuts inside a 3R box, even after I got a statement from Wago saying that it is okay to put it inside a 3R box. But squirting a bit of No-Ox in there seems to make them happy about it. The one time we put one inside a 3R panel board to extend a short wire and forgot to put No-Ox on that one, they gave us a 2 out of 5 on the inspection, even though that was the only thing noted in the entire inspection report! But I would be curious if the point you make above will work with NYSERDA? Cheers, Dave On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:16 PM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We had an inspection agency that was giving us a hard time about using > buchanan crimps in junction boxes because they aren't rated for > outdoor/damp locations. The point was made (on this listserve) that "*if > the inside of a 3R enclosure isn't considered dry enough for a buchanan > crimp/cap, then there's millions of 3R panels with breakers and busbars in > them that would have the same problem*". The inspection agency finally > relented. We put a little No-Alox in the cap. I know that's not what your > initial post was about, but tossing that in for consideration just in > case... > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 3:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Sam >> >> I can’t imagine being just copper it would matter, the AHJ might have a >> different opinion however >> >> Question. >> How are you insulating them? >> >> Jay >> >> >> On Nov 11, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Wrenches, >> >> On the attached product spec sheet for Ideal Copper Crimps (aka Buchanan >> crimps) you'll see that max voltage for the crimp is rated at 600V but an >> asterisk indicates up to 1000V when "in fixtures and signs". In our >> application this is a 1000v system and we are joining pairs of #10 PV >> wires. The junctions are made in a rail-mounted, plastic j-box. We could >> not find the definition of "fixture" as it might pertain to this situation >> in the NEC and as such are interested to learn more about using Buchanan >> crimps for 1000V applications. >> >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> Sam >> >> [image: OnSite Energy] >> >> Sam Haraldson >> Operations Specialist >> (406) 551-6135 >> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >> [image: B Corporation] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Nov 11 18:01:53 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 18:01:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have had terrific success using Wagos in rooftop junction boxes for splicing #12 Enphase cable to #10 home run THWN. We have no issues whatsoever with these. Unfortunately, the #10 PV wire insulation is too large for the Wago 221-6XX series. We have been buying #14-#4 Polaris taps and it's getting very expensive. I would like an alternative. For a while we were using the King Innovation AlumiConn purple "suitcase" connectors for Enphase, but they are only 300V rated and I don't think the PV Wire insulation fits in those, either, for <300V applications. I have seen people using MC4 connectors in rooftop junction boxes like Blake suggested, but I wasn't sure if that is acceptable practice to use them this way (in an enclosure), and it does require a pretty large junction box. We prefer to use the EZ Solar JB-# series of boxes. The rail mount ones (JB-3) are pretty small, but the tile roof JB-2 is huge, and the shingle JB-1 is sizable as well. I guess if there is no prohibition against using them in an enclosure, then it should be allowed. I do like the watertight nature of this solution. I have seen some clowns using MC4 connectors with #10 THHN wire to make these splices. That's obviously no bueno. Crazy stuff... Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:44 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Adam, > This response is just to you. Is NYSERDA the inspection agency you are > talking about? Cause they have given me issues about using Wago Nuts inside > a 3R box, even after I got a statement from Wago saying that it is okay to > put it inside a 3R box. But squirting a bit of No-Ox in there seems to make > them happy about it. The one time we put one inside a 3R panel board to > extend a short wire and forgot to put No-Ox on that one, they gave us a 2 > out of 5 on the inspection, even though that was the only thing noted in > the entire inspection report! But I would be curious if the point you make > above will work with NYSERDA? > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:16 PM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We had an inspection agency that was giving us a hard time about using >> buchanan crimps in junction boxes because they aren't rated for >> outdoor/damp locations. The point was made (on this listserve) that "*if >> the inside of a 3R enclosure isn't considered dry enough for a buchanan >> crimp/cap, then there's millions of 3R panels with breakers and busbars in >> them that would have the same problem*". The inspection agency finally >> relented. We put a little No-Alox in the cap. I know that's not what your >> initial post was about, but tossing that in for consideration just in >> case... >> >> Adam Katzman (he/him) >> Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator >> www.AutonomousEnergies.com >> (518) 567-1468 >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 3:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Sam >>> >>> I can’t imagine being just copper it would matter, the AHJ might have a >>> different opinion however >>> >>> Question. >>> How are you insulating them? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> On Nov 11, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> On the attached product spec sheet for Ideal Copper Crimps (aka Buchanan >>> crimps) you'll see that max voltage for the crimp is rated at 600V but an >>> asterisk indicates up to 1000V when "in fixtures and signs". In our >>> application this is a 1000v system and we are joining pairs of #10 PV >>> wires. The junctions are made in a rail-mounted, plastic j-box. We could >>> not find the definition of "fixture" as it might pertain to this situation >>> in the NEC and as such are interested to learn more about using Buchanan >>> crimps for 1000V applications. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Sam >>> >>> [image: OnSite Energy] >>> >>> Sam Haraldson >>> Operations Specialist >>> (406) 551-6135 >>> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >>> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >>> [image: B Corporation] >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 18:42:49 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 18:42:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It’s been my understanding that installing a cable to cable MC4 connection inside a junction box is against Stabuli manufacturer guidelines and that heat and moisture dissipation are important factors with MC4 connectors, even though they are IP68 rated. I remember hearing this reiterated at the NABCEP conference earlier this year as well. On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 6:03 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We have had terrific success using Wagos in rooftop junction boxes for > splicing #12 Enphase cable to #10 home run THWN. We have no issues > whatsoever with these. > > Unfortunately, the #10 PV wire insulation is too large for the Wago > 221-6XX series. We have been buying #14-#4 Polaris taps and it's getting > very expensive. I would like an alternative. > > For a while we were using the King Innovation AlumiConn purple "suitcase" > connectors for Enphase, but they are only 300V rated and I don't think the > PV Wire insulation fits in those, either, for <300V applications. > > I have seen people using MC4 connectors in rooftop junction boxes like > Blake suggested, but I wasn't sure if that is acceptable practice to use > them this way (in an enclosure), and it does require a pretty large > junction box. We prefer to use the EZ Solar JB-# series of boxes. The rail > mount ones (JB-3) are pretty small, but the tile roof JB-2 is huge, and the > shingle JB-1 is sizable as well. I guess if there is no prohibition against > using them in an enclosure, then it should be allowed. I do like the > watertight nature of this solution. > > I have seen some clowns using MC4 connectors with #10 THHN wire to make > these splices. That's obviously no bueno. Crazy stuff... > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:44 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Adam, >> This response is just to you. Is NYSERDA the inspection agency you are >> talking about? Cause they have given me issues about using Wago Nuts inside >> a 3R box, even after I got a statement from Wago saying that it is okay to >> put it inside a 3R box. But squirting a bit of No-Ox in there seems to make >> them happy about it. The one time we put one inside a 3R panel board to >> extend a short wire and forgot to put No-Ox on that one, they gave us a 2 >> out of 5 on the inspection, even though that was the only thing noted in >> the entire inspection report! But I would be curious if the point you make >> above will work with NYSERDA? >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:16 PM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> We had an inspection agency that was giving us a hard time about using >>> buchanan crimps in junction boxes because they aren't rated for >>> outdoor/damp locations. The point was made (on this listserve) that "*if >>> the inside of a 3R enclosure isn't considered dry enough for a buchanan >>> crimp/cap, then there's millions of 3R panels with breakers and busbars in >>> them that would have the same problem*". The inspection agency finally >>> relented. We put a little No-Alox in the cap. I know that's not what your >>> initial post was about, but tossing that in for consideration just in >>> case... >>> >>> Adam Katzman (he/him) >>> Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator >>> www.AutonomousEnergies.com >>> (518) 567-1468 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 3:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Sam >>>> >>>> I can’t imagine being just copper it would matter, the AHJ might have a >>>> different opinion however >>>> >>>> Question. >>>> How are you insulating them? >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 11, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> Wrenches, >>>> >>>> On the attached product spec sheet for Ideal Copper Crimps (aka >>>> Buchanan crimps) you'll see that max voltage for the crimp is rated at 600V >>>> but an asterisk indicates up to 1000V when "in fixtures and signs". In our >>>> application this is a 1000v system and we are joining pairs of #10 PV >>>> wires. The junctions are made in a rail-mounted, plastic j-box. We could >>>> not find the definition of "fixture" as it might pertain to this situation >>>> in the NEC and as such are interested to learn more about using Buchanan >>>> crimps for 1000V applications. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Sam >>>> >>>> [image: OnSite Energy] >>>> >>>> Sam Haraldson >>>> Operations Specialist >>>> (406) 551-6135 >>>> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >>>> >>>> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >>>> [image: B Corporation] >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Tue Nov 11 18:47:36 2025 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 15:47:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris - interesting. Do you have any documentation from Staubli about this restriction? I haven't seen anything like that myself. Thanks, Blake On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 3:43 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > It’s been my understanding that installing a cable to cable MC4 connection > inside a junction box is against Stabuli manufacturer guidelines and that > heat and moisture dissipation are important factors with MC4 connectors, > even though they are IP68 rated. I remember hearing this reiterated at the > NABCEP conference earlier this year as well. > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 6:03 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We have had terrific success using Wagos in rooftop junction boxes for >> splicing #12 Enphase cable to #10 home run THWN. We have no issues >> whatsoever with these. >> >> Unfortunately, the #10 PV wire insulation is too large for the Wago >> 221-6XX series. We have been buying #14-#4 Polaris taps and it's getting >> very expensive. I would like an alternative. >> >> For a while we were using the King Innovation AlumiConn purple "suitcase" >> connectors for Enphase, but they are only 300V rated and I don't think the >> PV Wire insulation fits in those, either, for <300V applications. >> >> I have seen people using MC4 connectors in rooftop junction boxes like >> Blake suggested, but I wasn't sure if that is acceptable practice to use >> them this way (in an enclosure), and it does require a pretty large >> junction box. We prefer to use the EZ Solar JB-# series of boxes. The rail >> mount ones (JB-3) are pretty small, but the tile roof JB-2 is huge, and the >> shingle JB-1 is sizable as well. I guess if there is no prohibition against >> using them in an enclosure, then it should be allowed. I do like the >> watertight nature of this solution. >> >> I have seen some clowns using MC4 connectors with #10 THHN wire to make >> these splices. That's obviously no bueno. Crazy stuff... >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:44 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Adam, >>> This response is just to you. Is NYSERDA the inspection agency you are >>> talking about? Cause they have given me issues about using Wago Nuts inside >>> a 3R box, even after I got a statement from Wago saying that it is okay to >>> put it inside a 3R box. But squirting a bit of No-Ox in there seems to make >>> them happy about it. The one time we put one inside a 3R panel board to >>> extend a short wire and forgot to put No-Ox on that one, they gave us a 2 >>> out of 5 on the inspection, even though that was the only thing noted in >>> the entire inspection report! But I would be curious if the point you make >>> above will work with NYSERDA? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:16 PM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> We had an inspection agency that was giving us a hard time about using >>>> buchanan crimps in junction boxes because they aren't rated for >>>> outdoor/damp locations. The point was made (on this listserve) that "*if >>>> the inside of a 3R enclosure isn't considered dry enough for a buchanan >>>> crimp/cap, then there's millions of 3R panels with breakers and busbars in >>>> them that would have the same problem*". The inspection agency finally >>>> relented. We put a little No-Alox in the cap. I know that's not what your >>>> initial post was about, but tossing that in for consideration just in >>>> case... >>>> >>>> Adam Katzman (he/him) >>>> Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator >>>> www.AutonomousEnergies.com >>>> (518) 567-1468 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 3:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Sam >>>>> >>>>> I can’t imagine being just copper it would matter, the AHJ might have >>>>> a different opinion however >>>>> >>>>> Question. >>>>> How are you insulating them? >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 11, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> On the attached product spec sheet for Ideal Copper Crimps (aka >>>>> Buchanan crimps) you'll see that max voltage for the crimp is rated at 600V >>>>> but an asterisk indicates up to 1000V when "in fixtures and signs". In our >>>>> application this is a 1000v system and we are joining pairs of #10 PV >>>>> wires. The junctions are made in a rail-mounted, plastic j-box. We could >>>>> not find the definition of "fixture" as it might pertain to this situation >>>>> in the NEC and as such are interested to learn more about using Buchanan >>>>> crimps for 1000V applications. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Sam >>>>> >>>>> [image: OnSite Energy] >>>>> >>>>> Sam Haraldson >>>>> Operations Specialist >>>>> (406) 551-6135 >>>>> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >>>>> >>>>> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >>>>> [image: B Corporation] >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 [image: sunlightandpower.com] 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 [image: https://www.amicussolar.com/] [image: https://calssa.org/] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Nov 11 18:59:53 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 18:59:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know of any explicit prohibition, but the assembly instructions state: “Install the connector in such a way that sufficient heat dissipation is ensured.” That's open to interpretation and they don't indicate what is "sufficient." Something about it doesn't sit well with me, so I have refrained from using MC4s in enclosures of any type, but that doesn't mean it's not allowed, and it might be perfectly safe and functional. I would be interested in learning anything more on this topic. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 6:49 PM Blake Gleason via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Chris - interesting. Do you have any documentation from Staubli about > this restriction? I haven't seen anything like that myself. Thanks, Blake > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 3:43 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> It’s been my understanding that installing a cable to cable MC4 >> connection inside a junction box is against Stabuli manufacturer guidelines >> and that heat and moisture dissipation are important factors with MC4 >> connectors, even though they are IP68 rated. I remember hearing this >> reiterated at the NABCEP conference earlier this year as well. >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 6:03 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> We have had terrific success using Wagos in rooftop junction boxes for >>> splicing #12 Enphase cable to #10 home run THWN. We have no issues >>> whatsoever with these. >>> >>> Unfortunately, the #10 PV wire insulation is too large for the Wago >>> 221-6XX series. We have been buying #14-#4 Polaris taps and it's getting >>> very expensive. I would like an alternative. >>> >>> For a while we were using the King Innovation AlumiConn purple >>> "suitcase" connectors for Enphase, but they are only 300V rated and I don't >>> think the PV Wire insulation fits in those, either, for <300V applications. >>> >>> I have seen people using MC4 connectors in rooftop junction boxes like >>> Blake suggested, but I wasn't sure if that is acceptable practice to use >>> them this way (in an enclosure), and it does require a pretty large >>> junction box. We prefer to use the EZ Solar JB-# series of boxes. The rail >>> mount ones (JB-3) are pretty small, but the tile roof JB-2 is huge, and the >>> shingle JB-1 is sizable as well. I guess if there is no prohibition against >>> using them in an enclosure, then it should be allowed. I do like the >>> watertight nature of this solution. >>> >>> I have seen some clowns using MC4 connectors with #10 THHN wire to make >>> these splices. That's obviously no bueno. Crazy stuff... >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:44 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Adam, >>>> This response is just to you. Is NYSERDA the inspection agency you are >>>> talking about? Cause they have given me issues about using Wago Nuts inside >>>> a 3R box, even after I got a statement from Wago saying that it is okay to >>>> put it inside a 3R box. But squirting a bit of No-Ox in there seems to make >>>> them happy about it. The one time we put one inside a 3R panel board to >>>> extend a short wire and forgot to put No-Ox on that one, they gave us a 2 >>>> out of 5 on the inspection, even though that was the only thing noted in >>>> the entire inspection report! But I would be curious if the point you make >>>> above will work with NYSERDA? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:16 PM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> We had an inspection agency that was giving us a hard time about using >>>>> buchanan crimps in junction boxes because they aren't rated for >>>>> outdoor/damp locations. The point was made (on this listserve) that "*if >>>>> the inside of a 3R enclosure isn't considered dry enough for a buchanan >>>>> crimp/cap, then there's millions of 3R panels with breakers and busbars in >>>>> them that would have the same problem*". The inspection agency >>>>> finally relented. We put a little No-Alox in the cap. I know that's not >>>>> what your initial post was about, but tossing that in for consideration >>>>> just in case... >>>>> >>>>> Adam Katzman (he/him) >>>>> Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator >>>>> www.AutonomousEnergies.com >>>>> (518) 567-1468 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 3:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Sam >>>>>> >>>>>> I can’t imagine being just copper it would matter, the AHJ might have >>>>>> a different opinion however >>>>>> >>>>>> Question. >>>>>> How are you insulating them? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 11, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> Wrenches, >>>>>> >>>>>> On the attached product spec sheet for Ideal Copper Crimps (aka >>>>>> Buchanan crimps) you'll see that max voltage for the crimp is rated at 600V >>>>>> but an asterisk indicates up to 1000V when "in fixtures and signs". In our >>>>>> application this is a 1000v system and we are joining pairs of #10 PV >>>>>> wires. The junctions are made in a rail-mounted, plastic j-box. We could >>>>>> not find the definition of "fixture" as it might pertain to this situation >>>>>> in the NEC and as such are interested to learn more about using Buchanan >>>>>> crimps for 1000V applications. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Sam >>>>>> >>>>>> [image: OnSite Energy] >>>>>> >>>>>> Sam Haraldson >>>>>> Operations Specialist >>>>>> (406) 551-6135 >>>>>> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >>>>>> >>>>>> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >>>>>> [image: B Corporation] >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner > Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence > O: 510-845-2997 x128 > C: 510-867-5878 > [image: sunlightandpower.com] > > > > 1035 Folger Ave. > > Berkeley, CA 94710 > > www.sunlightandpower.com > License #326203 > > [image: > https://www.amicussolar.com/] [image: > https://calssa.org/] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Nov 11 19:10:57 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 19:10:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0b9e54f8-2612-4f20-b246-3ee2d08a6370@email.android.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Nov 11 19:30:02 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 19:30:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: <0b9e54f8-2612-4f20-b246-3ee2d08a6370@email.android.com> References: <0b9e54f8-2612-4f20-b246-3ee2d08a6370@email.android.com> Message-ID: We're talking about inside a junction box (NEMA 3R or 4, for example), not an "outdoor environment." Wagos (and other connectors like wire nuts, Polaris Taps, power distribution blocks, terminal blocks, etc) are allowed inside of a rooftop junction box, just like they are allowed in various switch boxes, enclosures, and cabinets that are suitable for the environment outdoors. For the same reason you can put circuit breakers inside of a NEMA 3R load center outdoors, you can use splice connectors of many kinds inside of a NEMA 3R enclosure. They do not need to be listed for "outdoors" because it is not outdoors. It's enclosed and adequately protected from the environment. In other words, any AHJ that challenges me on this, I just ask them to show me a circuit breaker that's listed for use in a wet location. That's usually enough to shut them down. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 7:11 PM Glenn wrote: > I have not found a listing for Wagos in an outdoor environment. > > -Glenn > > On Nov 11, 2025 18:01, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > We have had terrific success using Wagos in rooftop junction boxes for > splicing #12 Enphase cable to #10 home run THWN. We have no issues > whatsoever with these. > > Unfortunately, the #10 PV wire insulation is too large for the Wago > 221-6XX series. We have been buying #14-#4 Polaris taps and it's getting > very expensive. I would like an alternative. > > For a while we were using the King Innovation AlumiConn purple "suitcase" > connectors for Enphase, but they are only 300V rated and I don't think the > PV Wire insulation fits in those, either, for <300V applications. > > I have seen people using MC4 connectors in rooftop junction boxes like > Blake suggested, but I wasn't sure if that is acceptable practice to use > them this way (in an enclosure), and it does require a pretty large > junction box. We prefer to use the EZ Solar JB-# series of boxes. The rail > mount ones (JB-3) are pretty small, but the tile roof JB-2 is huge, and the > shingle JB-1 is sizable as well. I guess if there is no prohibition against > using them in an enclosure, then it should be allowed. I do like the > watertight nature of this solution. > > I have seen some clowns using MC4 connectors with #10 THHN wire to make > these splices. That's obviously no bueno. Crazy stuff... > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:44 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Adam, > This response is just to you. Is NYSERDA the inspection agency you are > talking about? Cause they have given me issues about using Wago Nuts inside > a 3R box, even after I got a statement from Wago saying that it is okay to > put it inside a 3R box. But squirting a bit of No-Ox in there seems to make > them happy about it. The one time we put one inside a 3R panel board to > extend a short wire and forgot to put No-Ox on that one, they gave us a 2 > out of 5 on the inspection, even though that was the only thing noted in > the entire inspection report! But I would be curious if the point you make > above will work with NYSERDA? > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:16 PM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > We had an inspection agency that was giving us a hard time about using > buchanan crimps in junction boxes because they aren't rated for > outdoor/damp locations. The point was made (on this listserve) that "*if > the inside of a 3R enclosure isn't considered dry enough for a buchanan > crimp/cap, then there's millions of 3R panels with breakers and busbars in > them that would have the same problem*". The inspection agency finally > relented. We put a little No-Alox in the cap. I know that's not what your > initial post was about, but tossing that in for consideration just in > case... > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 3:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Sam > > I can’t imagine being just copper it would matter, the AHJ might have a > different opinion however > > Question. > How are you insulating them? > > Jay > > > On Nov 11, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Wrenches, > > On the attached product spec sheet for Ideal Copper Crimps (aka Buchanan > crimps) you'll see that max voltage for the crimp is rated at 600V but an > asterisk indicates up to 1000V when "in fixtures and signs". In our > application this is a 1000v system and we are joining pairs of #10 PV > wires. The junctions are made in a rail-mounted, plastic j-box. We could > not find the definition of "fixture" as it might pertain to this situation > in the NEC and as such are interested to learn more about using Buchanan > crimps for 1000V applications. > > > > > Cheers, > Sam > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > Sam Haraldson > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 19:45:14 2025 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 19:45:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: <0b9e54f8-2612-4f20-b246-3ee2d08a6370@email.android.com> Message-ID: https://www.staubli.com/content/dam/ecs/technical-documentation/assembly-instructions/RE/PV_MA231-en.pdf Page 4 states: “Thermal stress Ensure that the connector is not exposed to excessive thermal stress. • Install the connector in such a way that sufficient heat dissipation is ensured. • Installation in areas that restrict the air flow (e.g. in large bundles, in split looms or other housings) is not permitted. • Direct burial of the connector is not permitted.” I think a junction box would be considered a housing that restricts air flow. On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 7:31 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We're talking about inside a junction box (NEMA 3R or 4, for example), not > an "outdoor environment." Wagos (and other connectors like wire nuts, > Polaris Taps, power distribution blocks, terminal blocks, etc) are allowed > inside of a rooftop junction box, just like they are allowed in various > switch boxes, enclosures, and cabinets that are suitable for the > environment outdoors. > > For the same reason you can put circuit breakers inside of a NEMA 3R load > center outdoors, you can use splice connectors of many kinds inside of a > NEMA 3R enclosure. They do not need to be listed for "outdoors" because it > is not outdoors. It's enclosed and adequately protected from the > environment. > > In other words, any AHJ that challenges me on this, I just ask them to > show me a circuit breaker that's listed for use in a wet location. That's > usually enough to shut them down. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 7:11 PM Glenn wrote: > >> I have not found a listing for Wagos in an outdoor environment. >> >> -Glenn >> >> On Nov 11, 2025 18:01, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> We have had terrific success using Wagos in rooftop junction boxes for >> splicing #12 Enphase cable to #10 home run THWN. We have no issues >> whatsoever with these. >> >> Unfortunately, the #10 PV wire insulation is too large for the Wago >> 221-6XX series. We have been buying #14-#4 Polaris taps and it's getting >> very expensive. I would like an alternative. >> >> For a while we were using the King Innovation AlumiConn purple "suitcase" >> connectors for Enphase, but they are only 300V rated and I don't think the >> PV Wire insulation fits in those, either, for <300V applications. >> >> I have seen people using MC4 connectors in rooftop junction boxes like >> Blake suggested, but I wasn't sure if that is acceptable practice to use >> them this way (in an enclosure), and it does require a pretty large >> junction box. We prefer to use the EZ Solar JB-# series of boxes. The rail >> mount ones (JB-3) are pretty small, but the tile roof JB-2 is huge, and the >> shingle JB-1 is sizable as well. I guess if there is no prohibition against >> using them in an enclosure, then it should be allowed. I do like the >> watertight nature of this solution. >> >> I have seen some clowns using MC4 connectors with #10 THHN wire to make >> these splices. That's obviously no bueno. Crazy stuff... >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:44 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Adam, >> This response is just to you. Is NYSERDA the inspection agency you are >> talking about? Cause they have given me issues about using Wago Nuts inside >> a 3R box, even after I got a statement from Wago saying that it is okay to >> put it inside a 3R box. But squirting a bit of No-Ox in there seems to make >> them happy about it. The one time we put one inside a 3R panel board to >> extend a short wire and forgot to put No-Ox on that one, they gave us a 2 >> out of 5 on the inspection, even though that was the only thing noted in >> the entire inspection report! But I would be curious if the point you make >> above will work with NYSERDA? >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:16 PM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> We had an inspection agency that was giving us a hard time about using >> buchanan crimps in junction boxes because they aren't rated for >> outdoor/damp locations. The point was made (on this listserve) that "*if >> the inside of a 3R enclosure isn't considered dry enough for a buchanan >> crimp/cap, then there's millions of 3R panels with breakers and busbars in >> them that would have the same problem*". The inspection agency finally >> relented. We put a little No-Alox in the cap. I know that's not what your >> initial post was about, but tossing that in for consideration just in >> case... >> >> Adam Katzman (he/him) >> Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator >> www.AutonomousEnergies.com >> (518) 567-1468 >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 3:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Sam >> >> I can’t imagine being just copper it would matter, the AHJ might have a >> different opinion however >> >> Question. >> How are you insulating them? >> >> Jay >> >> >> On Nov 11, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Wrenches, >> >> On the attached product spec sheet for Ideal Copper Crimps (aka Buchanan >> crimps) you'll see that max voltage for the crimp is rated at 600V but an >> asterisk indicates up to 1000V when "in fixtures and signs". In our >> application this is a 1000v system and we are joining pairs of #10 PV >> wires. The junctions are made in a rail-mounted, plastic j-box. We could >> not find the definition of "fixture" as it might pertain to this situation >> in the NEC and as such are interested to learn more about using Buchanan >> crimps for 1000V applications. >> >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> Sam >> >> [image: OnSite Energy] >> >> Sam Haraldson >> Operations Specialist >> (406) 551-6135 >> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >> >> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >> [image: B Corporation] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Nov 11 20:07:21 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 20:07:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: <0b9e54f8-2612-4f20-b246-3ee2d08a6370@email.android.com> Message-ID: Jason, Back to your comment about Wagos. First of all, I have had some jurisdictions in NY complain about them in 3R boxes. Even after I got it in writing from Wago that while not approved for wet locations, they are ok in a 3R box. Squirting some no-ox has helped the jurisdiction with that. It's not a big deal to do, so I've given up fighting that. But I figured I'd share in case others run into that issue. But to your point about PV wire fitting in. I have noticed that the 600v PV wire I get does just barely fit into the 221-612 wago nuts. The 1000v PV wire definitely will not. Cheers, Dave On Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 7:49 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > https://www.staubli.com/content/dam/ecs/technical-documentation/assembly-instructions/RE/PV_MA231-en.pdf > > Page 4 states: > “Thermal stress > Ensure that the connector is not exposed to excessive thermal stress. > • Install the connector in such a way that sufficient heat dissipation is > ensured. > • Installation in areas that restrict the air flow (e.g. in large bundles, > in split looms or other housings) is not permitted. > • Direct burial of the connector is not permitted.” > > I think a junction box would be considered a housing that restricts air > flow. > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 7:31 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We're talking about inside a junction box (NEMA 3R or 4, for example), >> not an "outdoor environment." Wagos (and other connectors like wire nuts, >> Polaris Taps, power distribution blocks, terminal blocks, etc) are allowed >> inside of a rooftop junction box, just like they are allowed in various >> switch boxes, enclosures, and cabinets that are suitable for the >> environment outdoors. >> >> For the same reason you can put circuit breakers inside of a NEMA 3R load >> center outdoors, you can use splice connectors of many kinds inside of a >> NEMA 3R enclosure. They do not need to be listed for "outdoors" because it >> is not outdoors. It's enclosed and adequately protected from the >> environment. >> >> In other words, any AHJ that challenges me on this, I just ask them to >> show me a circuit breaker that's listed for use in a wet location. That's >> usually enough to shut them down. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 7:11 PM Glenn wrote: >> >>> I have not found a listing for Wagos in an outdoor environment. >>> >>> -Glenn >>> >>> On Nov 11, 2025 18:01, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> We have had terrific success using Wagos in rooftop junction boxes for >>> splicing #12 Enphase cable to #10 home run THWN. We have no issues >>> whatsoever with these. >>> >>> Unfortunately, the #10 PV wire insulation is too large for the Wago >>> 221-6XX series. We have been buying #14-#4 Polaris taps and it's getting >>> very expensive. I would like an alternative. >>> >>> For a while we were using the King Innovation AlumiConn purple >>> "suitcase" connectors for Enphase, but they are only 300V rated and I don't >>> think the PV Wire insulation fits in those, either, for <300V applications. >>> >>> I have seen people using MC4 connectors in rooftop junction boxes like >>> Blake suggested, but I wasn't sure if that is acceptable practice to use >>> them this way (in an enclosure), and it does require a pretty large >>> junction box. We prefer to use the EZ Solar JB-# series of boxes. The rail >>> mount ones (JB-3) are pretty small, but the tile roof JB-2 is huge, and the >>> shingle JB-1 is sizable as well. I guess if there is no prohibition against >>> using them in an enclosure, then it should be allowed. I do like the >>> watertight nature of this solution. >>> >>> I have seen some clowns using MC4 connectors with #10 THHN wire to make >>> these splices. That's obviously no bueno. Crazy stuff... >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:44 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Adam, >>> This response is just to you. Is NYSERDA the inspection agency you are >>> talking about? Cause they have given me issues about using Wago Nuts inside >>> a 3R box, even after I got a statement from Wago saying that it is okay to >>> put it inside a 3R box. But squirting a bit of No-Ox in there seems to make >>> them happy about it. The one time we put one inside a 3R panel board to >>> extend a short wire and forgot to put No-Ox on that one, they gave us a 2 >>> out of 5 on the inspection, even though that was the only thing noted in >>> the entire inspection report! But I would be curious if the point you make >>> above will work with NYSERDA? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:16 PM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> We had an inspection agency that was giving us a hard time about using >>> buchanan crimps in junction boxes because they aren't rated for >>> outdoor/damp locations. The point was made (on this listserve) that "*if >>> the inside of a 3R enclosure isn't considered dry enough for a buchanan >>> crimp/cap, then there's millions of 3R panels with breakers and busbars in >>> them that would have the same problem*". The inspection agency finally >>> relented. We put a little No-Alox in the cap. I know that's not what your >>> initial post was about, but tossing that in for consideration just in >>> case... >>> >>> Adam Katzman (he/him) >>> Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator >>> www.AutonomousEnergies.com >>> (518) 567-1468 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 3:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Sam >>> >>> I can’t imagine being just copper it would matter, the AHJ might have a >>> different opinion however >>> >>> Question. >>> How are you insulating them? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> On Nov 11, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> On the attached product spec sheet for Ideal Copper Crimps (aka Buchanan >>> crimps) you'll see that max voltage for the crimp is rated at 600V but an >>> asterisk indicates up to 1000V when "in fixtures and signs". In our >>> application this is a 1000v system and we are joining pairs of #10 PV >>> wires. The junctions are made in a rail-mounted, plastic j-box. We could >>> not find the definition of "fixture" as it might pertain to this situation >>> in the NEC and as such are interested to learn more about using Buchanan >>> crimps for 1000V applications. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Sam >>> >>> [image: OnSite Energy] >>> >>> Sam Haraldson >>> Operations Specialist >>> (406) 551-6135 >>> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >>> >>> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >>> [image: B Corporation] >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Nov 11 21:22:37 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 18:22:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: <0b9e54f8-2612-4f20-b246-3ee2d08a6370@email.android.com> References: <0b9e54f8-2612-4f20-b246-3ee2d08a6370@email.android.com> Message-ID: Glenn: I am one of those clowns: https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/PV_Cable_wiring/_PV_Cable_Wiring.html William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Glenn via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, November 11, 2025 4:11 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Glenn *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC I have seen some clowns using MC4 connectors with #10 THHN wire to make these splices. That's obviously no bueno. Crazy stuff... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Nov 11 22:03:18 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 22:03:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Nov 11 22:28:56 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 19:28:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Weep holes. It’s allowed. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 7:06 PM Glenn via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Having opened and inspected dozens of rooftop installations, I can firmly > say that anything inside a box of any kind on a rooftop will absolutely be > exposed to moisture and often water. Whether it is humidity sucked in from > thermal cycling, or gasket failure through UV degradation, or here in the > north, snow and ice damage, it will happen. > > You will never convince me that it is acceptable to use any device there > that does not have a published, traceable listing for outdoor use in that > environment. > > -Glenn > > On Nov 11, 2025 19:30, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > We're talking about inside a junction box (NEMA 3R or 4, for example), not > an "outdoor environment." Wagos (and other connectors like wire nuts, > Polaris Taps, power distribution blocks, terminal blocks, etc) are allowed > inside of a rooftop junction box, just like they are allowed in various > switch boxes, enclosures, and cabinets that are suitable for the > environment outdoors. > > For the same reason you can put circuit breakers inside of a NEMA 3R load > center outdoors, you can use splice connectors of many kinds inside of a > NEMA 3R enclosure. They do not need to be listed for "outdoors" because it > is not outdoors. It's enclosed and adequately protected from the > environment. > > In other words, any AHJ that challenges me on this, I just ask them to > show me a circuit breaker that's listed for use in a wet location. That's > usually enough to shut them down. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 7:11 PM Glenn wrote: > > I have not found a listing for Wagos in an outdoor environment. > > -Glenn > > On Nov 11, 2025 18:01, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > We have had terrific success using Wagos in rooftop junction boxes for > splicing #12 Enphase cable to #10 home run THWN. We have no issues > whatsoever with these. > > Unfortunately, the #10 PV wire insulation is too large for the Wago > 221-6XX series. We have been buying #14-#4 Polaris taps and it's getting > very expensive. I would like an alternative. > > For a while we were using the King Innovation AlumiConn purple "suitcase" > connectors for Enphase, but they are only 300V rated and I don't think the > PV Wire insulation fits in those, either, for <300V applications. > > I have seen people using MC4 connectors in rooftop junction boxes like > Blake suggested, but I wasn't sure if that is acceptable practice to use > them this way (in an enclosure), and it does require a pretty large > junction box. We prefer to use the EZ Solar JB-# series of boxes. The rail > mount ones (JB-3) are pretty small, but the tile roof JB-2 is huge, and the > shingle JB-1 is sizable as well. I guess if there is no prohibition against > using them in an enclosure, then it should be allowed. I do like the > watertight nature of this solution. > > I have seen some clowns using MC4 connectors with #10 THHN wire to make > these splices. That's obviously no bueno. Crazy stuff... > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:44 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Adam, > This response is just to you. Is NYSERDA the inspection agency you are > talking about? Cause they have given me issues about using Wago Nuts inside > a 3R box, even after I got a statement from Wago saying that it is okay to > put it inside a 3R box. But squirting a bit of No-Ox in there seems to make > them happy about it. The one time we put one inside a 3R panel board to > extend a short wire and forgot to put No-Ox on that one, they gave us a 2 > out of 5 on the inspection, even though that was the only thing noted in > the entire inspection report! But I would be curious if the point you make > above will work with NYSERDA? > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:16 PM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > We had an inspection agency that was giving us a hard time about using > buchanan crimps in junction boxes because they aren't rated for > outdoor/damp locations. The point was made (on this listserve) that "*if > the inside of a 3R enclosure isn't considered dry enough for a buchanan > crimp/cap, then there's millions of 3R panels with breakers and busbars in > them that would have the same problem*". The inspection agency finally > relented. We put a little No-Alox in the cap. I know that's not what your > initial post was about, but tossing that in for consideration just in > case... > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 3:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Sam > > I can’t imagine being just copper it would matter, the AHJ might have a > different opinion however > > Question. > How are you insulating them? > > Jay > > > On Nov 11, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Wrenches, > > On the attached product spec sheet for Ideal Copper Crimps (aka Buchanan > crimps) you'll see that max voltage for the crimp is rated at 600V but an > asterisk indicates up to 1000V when "in fixtures and signs". In our > application this is a 1000v system and we are joining pairs of #10 PV > wires. The junctions are made in a rail-mounted, plastic j-box. We could > not find the definition of "fixture" as it might pertain to this situation > in the NEC and as such are interested to learn more about using Buchanan > crimps for 1000V applications. > > > > > Cheers, > Sam > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > Sam Haraldson > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Nov 11 23:41:46 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 23:41:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Nov 12 00:19:08 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 21:19:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glenn: So no junction boxes outdoors ever? Seems impractical to me. Or do you mean every splice in an outdoor j-box should be a waterproof splice? I don’t believe that is necessary and certainly not code-required. On the other hand a well installed 3R box seems pretty standard and reliable. I don’t live in a showy climate so I can’t on those scenarios but I have never had a weep hole clog. The same thermal changes that suck water in will force it back out. BTW, I have never had a problem with transitioning from PV cable to THWN using an MC bulkhead fitting. This is what they are designed for. I have taken them apart decades later and they are all good. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Glenn [mailto:glenn.burt at glbcc.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, November 11, 2025 8:42 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC Are often plugged with debris, algae, even if made, and most 3R enclosures are already provided with weep openings. As an industry, installing to meet minimum requirements should never be a platform we stand on. Experience, education and shared knowledge allow us to do better. -Glenn On Nov 11, 2025 22:28, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Weep holes. It’s allowed. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 7:06 PM Glenn via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Having opened and inspected dozens of rooftop installations, I can firmly say that anything inside a box of any kind on a rooftop will absolutely be exposed to moisture and often water. Whether it is humidity sucked in from thermal cycling, or gasket failure through UV degradation, or here in the north, snow and ice damage, it will happen. You will never convince me that it is acceptable to use any device there that does not have a published, traceable listing for outdoor use in that environment. -Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Nov 12 02:45:00 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2025 02:45:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: <0b9e54f8-2612-4f20-b246-3ee2d08a6370@email.android.com> Message-ID: Haha, that was my comment, not Glenn's. A bulkhead fitting designed for use with THWN is a different story. I was referring to a standard MC4 connector designed and listed for use with Type PV/USE wire only. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 9:44 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Glenn: > > > > I am one of those clowns: > > > > > https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/PV_Cable_wiring/_PV_Cable_Wiring.html > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Glenn via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 11, 2025 4:11 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Glenn > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the > NEC > > > > > > I have seen some clowns using MC4 connectors with #10 THHN wire to make > these splices. That's obviously no bueno. Crazy stuff... > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com Wed Nov 12 09:20:16 2025 From: travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com (Travis Knipple) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2025 09:20:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS for CRD Multimode Compliance Message-ID: HI all, As of July, New York State requires CRD Multimode compliance documentation for any MID devices. Sol-Ark does not yet have their paperwork. Does anyone have a recommendation for an ATS that I can install upstream of the Sol-Ark Inverters to satisfy this requirement? It feels like all I "need" is a simple contactor that will open when the grid goes down, but I don't know who makes a simple device like that which is also UL Listed. -Travis -- Travis Knipple Senior Engineer Hudson Solar Solutions LLC Rhinebeck, NY 12572 518-539-8040 x408 | travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com PVIP# PV-111821-013612 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 09:59:39 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2025 06:59:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: <0b9e54f8-2612-4f20-b246-3ee2d08a6370@email.android.com> Message-ID: To be fair, with a standard staubli mc4 inside a properly installed jbox not subject to extreme pressure/temperature conditions, the only difference between thwn and pv cable(assuming similar stranding versions) is how easily the gland grabs on the wire jacket.. in that case the USE version of the staubli has a tighter gland. Kind of a non issue if the interior conditions of the box are stable and not pushing condensation inside the connector via pressure differential....a good reason to seal the conduit if it goes into conditioned space. I tighten them until they grab and in 20 years I've never had one fail in that scenario...Just my anecdotal input..maybe ones might think that clownish. I can't make a claim to the listing requirements. Sunny Regards, On Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 11:45 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Haha, that was my comment, not Glenn's. A bulkhead fitting designed for > use with THWN is a different story. I was referring to a standard MC4 > connector designed and listed for use with Type PV/USE wire only. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 9:44 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Glenn: >> >> >> >> I am one of those clowns: >> >> >> >> >> https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/PV_Cable_wiring/_PV_Cable_Wiring.html >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Glenn via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 11, 2025 4:11 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Glenn >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and >> the NEC >> >> >> >> >> >> I have seen some clowns using MC4 connectors with #10 THHN wire to make >> these splices. That's obviously no bueno. Crazy stuff... >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 10:04:27 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2025 07:04:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: <0b9e54f8-2612-4f20-b246-3ee2d08a6370@email.android.com> Message-ID: Come to think of it, I've never seen a properly installed staubli mc4 connection fail that wasn't subject to extreme conditions. On Wed, Nov 12, 2025, 6:59 AM Tyrone Houck wrote: > To be fair, with a standard staubli mc4 inside a properly installed jbox > not subject to extreme pressure/temperature conditions, the only difference > between thwn and pv cable(assuming similar stranding versions) is how > easily the gland grabs on the wire jacket.. in that case the USE version of > the staubli has a tighter gland. Kind of a non issue if the interior > conditions of the box are stable and not pushing condensation inside the > connector via pressure differential....a good reason to seal the conduit if > it goes into conditioned space. I tighten them until they grab and in 20 > years I've never had one fail in that scenario...Just my anecdotal > input..maybe ones might think that clownish. I can't make a claim to the > listing requirements. > Sunny Regards, > > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 11:45 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Haha, that was my comment, not Glenn's. A bulkhead fitting designed for >> use with THWN is a different story. I was referring to a standard MC4 >> connector designed and listed for use with Type PV/USE wire only. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 9:44 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Glenn: >>> >>> >>> >>> I am one of those clowns: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/PV_Cable_wiring/_PV_Cable_Wiring.html >>> >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Glenn via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 11, 2025 4:11 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Glenn >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and >>> the NEC >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I have seen some clowns using MC4 connectors with #10 THHN wire to make >>> these splices. That's obviously no bueno. Crazy stuff... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Nov 12 10:10:31 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2025 07:10:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS for CRD Multimode Compliance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: US Breaker, Inc. provides cross references to our US Breaker brand high quality UL certified products to assist customer selection. Our part number is different unless we are offering an original OEM part. We do not claim ownership of any other company trademark or part number referenced on our website, just fantastic value and service for our customers. https://www.usbreaker.com/products/lc1_cross.php On Wed, Nov 12, 2025 at 6:22 AM Travis Knipple via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI all, > > As of July, New York State requires CRD Multimode compliance documentation > for any MID devices. > Sol-Ark does not yet have their paperwork. > Does anyone have a recommendation for an ATS that I can install upstream > of the Sol-Ark Inverters to satisfy this requirement? > It feels like all I "need" is a simple contactor that will open when the > grid goes down, but I don't know who makes a simple device like that which > is also UL Listed. > > -Travis > > -- > Travis Knipple > Senior Engineer > Hudson Solar Solutions LLC > Rhinebeck, NY 12572 > 518-539-8040 x408 | travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com > > PVIP# PV-111821-013612 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Nov 12 14:19:47 2025 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2025 12:19:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well this isn’t a totally direct answer to questions on this thread, but I did want to address wet locations. (I do think the text on the Buchanan spec sheet in regards to voltage makes it a no-go for 1kV+ systems. It's a little surprising "fixture" isn't defined in the NEC, though in that case the convention is to use the generally accepted definition, which matches the contextual usage in the NEC - a permanently installed light, not including the bulb). As defined in the NEC (2026), a rooftop is (no duh, even here in Arizona!) a wet location: Location, Wet. (Wet Location) A location that is one or more of the following: (1) Unprotected and exposed to weather (2) Subject to saturation with water or other liquids (3) Underground (4) In concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth The inside of raceways in wet locations above grade is also a wet location: 300.11(A) Raceways in Wet Locations Above Grade. Where raceways are installed in wet locations above grade, the interior of these raceways shall be considered to be a wet location. Insulated conductors and cables installed in raceways in wet locations above grade shall comply with 310.10(C). [310.10(C) is requirements for conductors in wet locations] 314.14 requires junction boxes used in damp or wet locations have to be listed for such use, as is the case with 3R (which can be marked “rainproof”) and 4X (which can be marked “watertight”) enclosures (note the minimum drainage opening size in (C)(1), so as to prevent clogging), but does not state that their interior is considered a wet location: 314.15(A) Prevent Moisture. In damp or wet locations, boxes, conduit bodies, outlet box hoods, and fittings shall be placed or equipped to prevent moisture from entering or accumulating within the boxes, conduit bodies, or fittings. 314.15(B) Listed. Boxes, conduit bodies, outlet box hoods, and fittings installed in wet locations shall be listed for use in wet locations. 314.15(C) Drainage. 314.15(C)(1) Approved Openings. Approved drainage openings not smaller than 3 mm (1∕ 8 in.) and not larger than 6 mm (1∕ 4 in.) in diameter shall be permitted in the field in boxes or conduit bodies listed for use in damp or wet locations. Enclosures for OCPDs (240.32) in damp or wet locations, and panelboards (408.37) in damp or wet locations must comply with 312.4(A) and (B): 312.4(A) Weatherproof Enclosures. In damp or wet locations, surface-type enclosures within the scope of this article shall be placed or equipped such that moisture or water is prevented from entering and accumulating within cabinets or cutout boxes, and be mounted so there is at least 6 mm (1∕ 4 in.) of airspace between enclosures and walls or other supporting surface (yikes!!!!). Enclosures installed in wet locations shall be weatherproof. Exception: Nonmetallic enclosures shall be permitted without the airspace on a concrete, masonry, tile, or similar surface. 312.4(B) Raceways or Cable Above Live Parts. For enclosures in wet locations, raceways or cables entering above the level of uninsulated live parts shall use fittings listed for wet locations. The OCPDs installed in a typical panelboard are listed and designed to be installed in that enclosure, which has the proper rating for the location; and additional requirements stated above prevent direct dripping of moisture onto energized components such as bussing or breakers. The only requirement related to listing for connections in 110.14 is that direct buried connectors or splicing means be listed for such use. 110.11 states, in regard to deteriorating agents, conductors or equipment located in damp or wet locations must be identified for use in the operating environment. Note the definition of identified, and that listing is one means of identification but not the only one, so there is some latitude for the AHJ: Identified (as applied to equipment). Recognizable as suitable for the specific purpose, function, use, environment, application, and so forth, where described in a particular code requirement. Brian Mehalic Solar Tech Collective National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 8:03 PM Glenn via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Having opened and inspected dozens of rooftop installations, I can firmly > say that anything inside a box of any kind on a rooftop will absolutely be > exposed to moisture and often water. Whether it is humidity sucked in from > thermal cycling, or gasket failure through UV degradation, or here in the > north, snow and ice damage, it will happen. > > You will never convince me that it is acceptable to use any device there > that does not have a published, traceable listing for outdoor use in that > environment. > > -Glenn > > On Nov 11, 2025 19:30, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > We're talking about inside a junction box (NEMA 3R or 4, for example), not > an "outdoor environment." Wagos (and other connectors like wire nuts, > Polaris Taps, power distribution blocks, terminal blocks, etc) are allowed > inside of a rooftop junction box, just like they are allowed in various > switch boxes, enclosures, and cabinets that are suitable for the > environment outdoors. > > For the same reason you can put circuit breakers inside of a NEMA 3R load > center outdoors, you can use splice connectors of many kinds inside of a > NEMA 3R enclosure. They do not need to be listed for "outdoors" because it > is not outdoors. It's enclosed and adequately protected from the > environment. > > In other words, any AHJ that challenges me on this, I just ask them to > show me a circuit breaker that's listed for use in a wet location. That's > usually enough to shut them down. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 7:11 PM Glenn wrote: > > I have not found a listing for Wagos in an outdoor environment. > > -Glenn > > On Nov 11, 2025 18:01, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > We have had terrific success using Wagos in rooftop junction boxes for > splicing #12 Enphase cable to #10 home run THWN. We have no issues > whatsoever with these. > > Unfortunately, the #10 PV wire insulation is too large for the Wago > 221-6XX series. We have been buying #14-#4 Polaris taps and it's getting > very expensive. I would like an alternative. > > For a while we were using the King Innovation AlumiConn purple "suitcase" > connectors for Enphase, but they are only 300V rated and I don't think the > PV Wire insulation fits in those, either, for <300V applications. > > I have seen people using MC4 connectors in rooftop junction boxes like > Blake suggested, but I wasn't sure if that is acceptable practice to use > them this way (in an enclosure), and it does require a pretty large > junction box. We prefer to use the EZ Solar JB-# series of boxes. The rail > mount ones (JB-3) are pretty small, but the tile roof JB-2 is huge, and the > shingle JB-1 is sizable as well. I guess if there is no prohibition against > using them in an enclosure, then it should be allowed. I do like the > watertight nature of this solution. > > I have seen some clowns using MC4 connectors with #10 THHN wire to make > these splices. That's obviously no bueno. Crazy stuff... > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:44 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Adam, > This response is just to you. Is NYSERDA the inspection agency you are > talking about? Cause they have given me issues about using Wago Nuts inside > a 3R box, even after I got a statement from Wago saying that it is okay to > put it inside a 3R box. But squirting a bit of No-Ox in there seems to make > them happy about it. The one time we put one inside a 3R panel board to > extend a short wire and forgot to put No-Ox on that one, they gave us a 2 > out of 5 on the inspection, even though that was the only thing noted in > the entire inspection report! But I would be curious if the point you make > above will work with NYSERDA? > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:16 PM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > We had an inspection agency that was giving us a hard time about using > buchanan crimps in junction boxes because they aren't rated for > outdoor/damp locations. The point was made (on this listserve) that "*if > the inside of a 3R enclosure isn't considered dry enough for a buchanan > crimp/cap, then there's millions of 3R panels with breakers and busbars in > them that would have the same problem*". The inspection agency finally > relented. We put a little No-Alox in the cap. I know that's not what your > initial post was about, but tossing that in for consideration just in > case... > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 3:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Sam > > I can’t imagine being just copper it would matter, the AHJ might have a > different opinion however > > Question. > How are you insulating them? > > Jay > > > On Nov 11, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Wrenches, > > On the attached product spec sheet for Ideal Copper Crimps (aka Buchanan > crimps) you'll see that max voltage for the crimp is rated at 600V but an > asterisk indicates up to 1000V when "in fixtures and signs". In our > application this is a 1000v system and we are joining pairs of #10 PV > wires. The junctions are made in a rail-mounted, plastic j-box. We could > not find the definition of "fixture" as it might pertain to this situation > in the NEC and as such are interested to learn more about using Buchanan > crimps for 1000V applications. > > > > > Cheers, > Sam > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > Sam Haraldson > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Wed Nov 12 14:48:12 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2025 11:48:12 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ATS for CRD Multimode Compliance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Travis. Is this the UL1741 PCS CRD (usually cross listed with UL3141 listing) or is this a different listing that they are looking for. I was pretty sure that the SolArk's all have the UL1741PCS CRD/UL3141, and of course the MID is built into the inverter already. But maybe it's a different one. For California, they have an interesting issue for the open loop response time for the PCS CRD listing -- you only need less than 10 second response time for net billing systems, but less than 2 second response time for zero export systems, which has been a harder target for a number of inverters to hit (many are coming in at 3 to 4 seconds for one of the step tests). Ironically one of the main reasons to do a zero export system is because there is already a grandfathered net metered system on site which can export, but they want the new system to have a very fast response time to never export... I calculated that the inadvertent export could maybe cost them a dollar or two a year worse case) Zeke As of July, New York State requires CRD Multimode compliance documentation for any MID devices. Sol-Ark does not yet have their paperwork. Does anyone have a recommendation for an ATS that I can install upstream of the Sol-Ark Inverters to satisfy this requirement? It feels like all I "need" is a simple contactor that will open when the grid goes down, but I don't know who makes a simple device like that which is also UL Listed. -Travis -- Travis Knipple Senior Engineer Hudson Solar Solutions LLC Rhinebeck, NY 12572 518-539-8040 x408 | travis at hudsonsolarsolutions.com -- Zeke Yewdall PV Engineer NABCEP #031508-89 zeke at darkforestsolar.com 303-523-3592 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Nov 12 15:25:47 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2025 12:25:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Wow have we all gone done the rabbit hole here, not all NEMA 3 can can be mounted in any position other that upright with entre points only from below, laying a box neatly flat on the rail may not have any drains where needed, also make sure the mounting holes are sealed. Some inspectors want the box under a panel and some require it exposed. In Hawaii l had inspectors require MC-4 at every wire connection not including grounds everywhere and yes we complied. Easier to comply than fight sometimes because there is always a next time Fun times On Wed, Nov 12, 2025, 11:25 AM Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Well this isn’t a totally direct answer to questions on this thread, but I > did want to address wet locations. (I do think the text on the Buchanan > spec sheet in regards to voltage makes it a no-go for 1kV+ systems. It's a > little surprising "fixture" isn't defined in the NEC, though in that case > the convention is to use the generally accepted definition, which matches > the contextual usage in the NEC - a permanently installed light, not > including the bulb). > > > As defined in the NEC (2026), a rooftop is (no duh, even here in Arizona!) > a wet location: > > > Location, Wet. (Wet Location) > > A location that is one or more of the following: > > (1) Unprotected and exposed to weather > > (2) Subject to saturation with water or other liquids > > (3) Underground > > (4) In concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth > > > The inside of raceways in wet locations above grade is also a wet location: > > > 300.11(A) Raceways in Wet Locations Above Grade. > > Where raceways are installed in wet locations above grade, the interior of > these raceways shall be considered to be a wet location. Insulated > conductors and cables installed in raceways in wet locations above grade > shall comply with 310.10(C). [310.10(C) is requirements for conductors in > wet locations] > > > 314.14 requires junction boxes used in damp or wet locations have to be > listed for such use, as is the case with 3R (which can be marked > “rainproof”) and 4X (which can be marked “watertight”) enclosures (note the > minimum drainage opening size in (C)(1), so as to prevent clogging), but > does not state that their interior is considered a wet location: > > > 314.15(A) Prevent Moisture. > > In damp or wet locations, boxes, conduit bodies, outlet box hoods, and > fittings shall be placed or equipped to prevent moisture from entering or > accumulating within the boxes, conduit bodies, or fittings. > > 314.15(B) Listed. > > Boxes, conduit bodies, outlet box hoods, and fittings installed in wet > locations shall be listed for use in wet locations. > > 314.15(C) Drainage. > > 314.15(C)(1) Approved Openings. > > Approved drainage openings not smaller than 3 mm (1∕ 8 in.) and not larger > than 6 mm (1∕ 4 in.) in diameter shall be permitted in the field in boxes > or conduit bodies listed for use in damp or wet locations. > > > Enclosures for OCPDs (240.32) in damp or wet locations, and panelboards > (408.37) in damp or wet locations must comply with 312.4(A) and (B): > > 312.4(A) Weatherproof Enclosures. > > In damp or wet locations, surface-type enclosures within the scope of this > article shall be placed or equipped such that moisture or water is > prevented from entering and accumulating within cabinets or cutout boxes, > and be mounted so there is at least 6 mm (1∕ 4 in.) of airspace between > enclosures and walls or other supporting surface (yikes!!!!). Enclosures > installed in wet locations shall be weatherproof. Exception: Nonmetallic > enclosures shall be permitted without the airspace on a concrete, masonry, > tile, or similar surface. > > 312.4(B) Raceways or Cable Above Live Parts. > > For enclosures in wet locations, raceways or cables entering above the > level of uninsulated live parts shall use fittings listed for wet locations. > > The OCPDs installed in a typical panelboard are listed and designed to be > installed in that enclosure, which has the proper rating for the location; > and additional requirements stated above prevent direct dripping of > moisture onto energized components such as bussing or breakers. > > The only requirement related to listing for connections in 110.14 is that > direct buried connectors or splicing means be listed for such use. > > 110.11 states, in regard to deteriorating agents, conductors or equipment > located in damp or wet locations must be identified for use in the > operating environment. Note the definition of identified, and that listing > is one means of identification but not the only one, so there is some > latitude for the AHJ: > > Identified (as applied to equipment). > > Recognizable as suitable for the specific purpose, function, use, > environment, application, and so forth, where described in a particular > code requirement. > > Brian Mehalic > Solar Tech Collective > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 8:03 PM Glenn via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Having opened and inspected dozens of rooftop installations, I can firmly >> say that anything inside a box of any kind on a rooftop will absolutely be >> exposed to moisture and often water. Whether it is humidity sucked in from >> thermal cycling, or gasket failure through UV degradation, or here in the >> north, snow and ice damage, it will happen. >> >> You will never convince me that it is acceptable to use any device there >> that does not have a published, traceable listing for outdoor use in that >> environment. >> >> -Glenn >> >> On Nov 11, 2025 19:30, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> We're talking about inside a junction box (NEMA 3R or 4, for example), >> not an "outdoor environment." Wagos (and other connectors like wire nuts, >> Polaris Taps, power distribution blocks, terminal blocks, etc) are allowed >> inside of a rooftop junction box, just like they are allowed in various >> switch boxes, enclosures, and cabinets that are suitable for the >> environment outdoors. >> >> For the same reason you can put circuit breakers inside of a NEMA 3R load >> center outdoors, you can use splice connectors of many kinds inside of a >> NEMA 3R enclosure. They do not need to be listed for "outdoors" because it >> is not outdoors. It's enclosed and adequately protected from the >> environment. >> >> In other words, any AHJ that challenges me on this, I just ask them to >> show me a circuit breaker that's listed for use in a wet location. That's >> usually enough to shut them down. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 7:11 PM Glenn wrote: >> >> I have not found a listing for Wagos in an outdoor environment. >> >> -Glenn >> >> On Nov 11, 2025 18:01, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> We have had terrific success using Wagos in rooftop junction boxes for >> splicing #12 Enphase cable to #10 home run THWN. We have no issues >> whatsoever with these. >> >> Unfortunately, the #10 PV wire insulation is too large for the Wago >> 221-6XX series. We have been buying #14-#4 Polaris taps and it's getting >> very expensive. I would like an alternative. >> >> For a while we were using the King Innovation AlumiConn purple "suitcase" >> connectors for Enphase, but they are only 300V rated and I don't think the >> PV Wire insulation fits in those, either, for <300V applications. >> >> I have seen people using MC4 connectors in rooftop junction boxes like >> Blake suggested, but I wasn't sure if that is acceptable practice to use >> them this way (in an enclosure), and it does require a pretty large >> junction box. We prefer to use the EZ Solar JB-# series of boxes. The rail >> mount ones (JB-3) are pretty small, but the tile roof JB-2 is huge, and the >> shingle JB-1 is sizable as well. I guess if there is no prohibition against >> using them in an enclosure, then it should be allowed. I do like the >> watertight nature of this solution. >> >> I have seen some clowns using MC4 connectors with #10 THHN wire to make >> these splices. That's obviously no bueno. Crazy stuff... >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:44 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Adam, >> This response is just to you. Is NYSERDA the inspection agency you are >> talking about? Cause they have given me issues about using Wago Nuts inside >> a 3R box, even after I got a statement from Wago saying that it is okay to >> put it inside a 3R box. But squirting a bit of No-Ox in there seems to make >> them happy about it. The one time we put one inside a 3R panel board to >> extend a short wire and forgot to put No-Ox on that one, they gave us a 2 >> out of 5 on the inspection, even though that was the only thing noted in >> the entire inspection report! But I would be curious if the point you make >> above will work with NYSERDA? >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:16 PM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> We had an inspection agency that was giving us a hard time about using >> buchanan crimps in junction boxes because they aren't rated for >> outdoor/damp locations. The point was made (on this listserve) that "*if >> the inside of a 3R enclosure isn't considered dry enough for a buchanan >> crimp/cap, then there's millions of 3R panels with breakers and busbars in >> them that would have the same problem*". The inspection agency finally >> relented. We put a little No-Alox in the cap. I know that's not what your >> initial post was about, but tossing that in for consideration just in >> case... >> >> Adam Katzman (he/him) >> Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator >> www.AutonomousEnergies.com >> (518) 567-1468 >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 3:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Sam >> >> I can’t imagine being just copper it would matter, the AHJ might have a >> different opinion however >> >> Question. >> How are you insulating them? >> >> Jay >> >> >> On Nov 11, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Wrenches, >> >> On the attached product spec sheet for Ideal Copper Crimps (aka Buchanan >> crimps) you'll see that max voltage for the crimp is rated at 600V but an >> asterisk indicates up to 1000V when "in fixtures and signs". In our >> application this is a 1000v system and we are joining pairs of #10 PV >> wires. The junctions are made in a rail-mounted, plastic j-box. We could >> not find the definition of "fixture" as it might pertain to this situation >> in the NEC and as such are interested to learn more about using Buchanan >> crimps for 1000V applications. >> >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> Sam >> >> [image: OnSite Energy] >> >> Sam Haraldson >> Operations Specialist >> (406) 551-6135 >> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >> >> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >> [image: B Corporation] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Wed Nov 12 16:28:57 2025 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2025 14:28:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimp in 1000v Applications and the NEC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, Wrenches, as always for your spirited dialog. It has been a common practice of our company for a long time to pair MC4 connectors and PV wire for commercial 1000v systems. In a recent install the crew wasn't properly informed and they employed Buchanan crimps (as is our standard < 600v residential solution). A QA/QC contractor happens to have a very, very close eye on this project and has requested the submittal of the Buchanan spec sheet. This is what prompted my question to the list. I'm not going to lie, I was hoping Mr. Mehalic was going to answer the question with something along the lines of '*a rooftop j-box qualifies as a fixture and you're good to go*' but I was equally prepared for "*I do think the text on the Buchanan spec sheet in regards to voltage makes it a no-go for 1kV+ systems*". I wasn't expecting the tangential discussion about the use of MC4 connectors inside a junction box and I'm going to have to weigh the pros and cons of them in this application carefully. That being said, in a decade of performing installations doing precisely that, I've opened plenty of them up years later and been very happy with what I've found inside looking neat and tidy. And I can't think of a single arc fault in such a scenario that wasn't directly related to someone improperly torquing the connector. Cheers, Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Nov 14 09:09:37 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2025 09:09:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dave Click Contact Message-ID: Does anyone have current contact information for Dave Click or someone else at FSEC? His bio email is not valid and I'm hoping to reach someone there for some information. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Nov 14 09:37:09 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2025 09:37:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dave Click Contact In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave has not been there for many years.  I do not know who is in his place.  Chris On 11/14/2025 9:09 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > Does anyone have current contact information for Dave Click or someone > else at FSEC? His bio email is not valid and I'm hoping to reach > someone there for some information. > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Fri Nov 14 10:02:59 2025 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2025 08:02:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for Schneider 600V Charge controller. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Does anyone out there have an extra Schneider 600V 100A charge controller (P/N 865-1034) sitting around that you are willing to part with? I am in need of one and since the product has been discontinued it has disappeared from the market. Please contact me off-list. Thanks! Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 719.588.3044 sgsrenewables at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Nov 14 10:24:10 2025 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2025 15:24:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dave Click Contact In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It has been several years since my last email with FSEC. May want to start with the generic info at fsec.ucf.edu down in contact info at bottom of page: https://energyresearch.ucf.edu/ Mike Michael Mahon (he/him) Solar Academy Manager | SMA America +1 916 918 9412 SMA America | Solar Academy | TechTip Channel | Upcoming Academy Trainings [cid:image001.jpg at 01DC5540.0CC4BC40] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, November 14, 2025 7:37 AM To: Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Cc: Christopher Warfel Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dave Click Contact Dave has not been there for many years. I do not know who is in his place. Chris On 11/14/2025 9:09 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: Does anyone have current contact information for Dave Click or someone else at FSEC? His bio email is not valid and I'm hoping to reach someone there for some information. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 39899 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Nov 14 16:13:27 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2025 16:13:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for Schneider 600V Charge controller. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I might have one. I have to check my warehouse on Monday. It would be used, but in working order. We took it out of a home a few months ago to swap in an all-in-one. I don't know if my guys disposed of it. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Nov 14, 2025 at 10:05 AM Luke Christy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > Does anyone out there have an extra Schneider 600V 100A charge controller > (P/N 865-1034) sitting around that you are willing to part with? I am in > need of one and since the product has been discontinued it has disappeared > from the market. > > Please contact me off-list. > > Thanks! > > Luke Christy > Renewable energy consultant > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO 81144 > 719.588.3044 > sgsrenewables at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Nov 15 12:18:18 2025 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill P. Battagin) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2025 12:18:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Boy swapping In-Reply-To: <0CEF7E1B-8768-4970-8546-3630241DFE20@mavericksolar.com> References: <0CEF7E1B-8768-4970-8546-3630241DFE20@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <1078770883.4539704.1763227098477.JavaMail.zimbra@psln.com> Hey wrenchers, Anybody see an issue with swapping out a failed SB6000TL-us-22 with a SB6.0-1SP-US-40 or 41. The string voltages and amps work for both with this array. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 [ http://www.frenergy.net/ | www.frenergy.net ] 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up From: "Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: "Maverick Brown" Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2025 5:11:37 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K and HomeGrid - Comm Cable Pinout As a side note, I just swapped a pair of 12k MCU boards. Pretty easy for the 12k and I left them hanging on the wall but completely shutdown. That’s a great time for an AC bypass. The MCU board has the device ID, aka inverter serial number. So, when you swap them out, you’ll need to re parallel the group and likely with Sol-Ark on the line. Then, the old “inverter” will show as disconnected and if you don’t need its historical data, it can be deleted. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 On Oct 16, 2025, at 6:25 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: BQ_BEGIN Thanks Maverick. This turned out to be the answer. No ground wire was needed. I found out the master inverter is faulty. I connected the cable to the slave (after unparalleling) and it worked. Sol-Ark was surprisingly very willing to send me a new MCU board without any argument. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Oct 16, 2025, 1:00 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < [ mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org | re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ] > wrote: BQ_BEGIN Jason, I have a couple working HomeGrid to Sol-Ark installs. The manual does seem to mix flavors of cable and even the cable that came with the HomeGrid install of 2024 has Ethernet Type A color code pin out. If you keep the pin out as type A, that is fine, but I made a chart with Type B wiring, attached. Also, I think you should not connect the other unnecessary wires on the Sol-Ark side, just to eliminate any issues. I also assume they are using CAN and not using RS485... Let me know how that works for you. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection [ mailto:maverick at mavericksolar.com | maverick at mavericksolar.com ] 512-460-9825 BQ_BEGIN On Oct 16, 2025, at 9:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < [ mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org | re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ] > wrote: Does anyone know for sure what the correct pinout is on the communication cables for this pairing? Sol-Ark has multiple battery integration guide versions. Some show two wires connected to pins four and five on the inverter and seven and eight on the battery, respectively. In another version of the guide, four is connected to eight and five is connected to seven. In yet another version, a green wire is introduced. I have tried all three combinations, and none work. I can't get a straight answer out of either manufacturer, and of course they're both pointing fingers at each other regarding my battery communication issue. Sol-Ark is sending a firmware update and recommended a factory reset. That's the next step, but it doesn't answer the question about the correct pinout. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: [ http://re-wrenches.org/ | http://re-wrenches.org ] List Address: [ mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org | RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ] Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org | http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: [ https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ | https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ] [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org | http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ] List rules & etiquette: [ http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm | http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ] Check out or update participant bios: [ http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ | http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ] BQ_END _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: [ http://re-wrenches.org/ | http://re-wrenches.org ] List Address: [ mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org | RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ] Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org | http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: [ https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ | https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ] [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org | http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ] List rules & etiquette: [ http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm | http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ] Check out or update participant bios: [ http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ | http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ] BQ_END BQ_END _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Nov 15 12:27:16 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2025 09:27:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Boy swapping In-Reply-To: <1078770883.4539704.1763227098477.JavaMail.zimbra@psln.com> References: <0CEF7E1B-8768-4970-8546-3630241DFE20@mavericksolar.com> <1078770883.4539704.1763227098477.JavaMail.zimbra@psln.com> Message-ID: https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/SMA_40_Series/Whats_wrong_with_40_Series.html One advantage to the 40 series: the 22 series does not taper charge with FSPC. Production is either off or on. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sat, Nov 15, 2025 at 9:18 AM Bill P. Battagin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey wrenchers, > > Anybody see an issue with swapping out a failed SB6000TL-us-22 > with a SB6.0-1SP-US-40 or 41. The string voltages and amps work for both > with this array. > Thanks, Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping)5575 Genesee Rd . (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > www.frenergy.net > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > > ------------------------------ > *From: *"Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *To: *"RE-wrenches" > *Cc: *"Maverick Brown" > *Sent: *Thursday, October 16, 2025 5:11:37 PM > *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K and HomeGrid - Comm Cable Pinout > > As a side note, > I just swapped a pair of 12k MCU boards. Pretty easy for the 12k and I > left them hanging on the wall but completely shutdown. > > That’s a great time for an AC bypass. > > The MCU board has the device ID, aka inverter serial number. > > So, when you swap them out, you’ll need to re parallel the group and > likely with Sol-Ark on the line. > > Then, the old “inverter” will show as disconnected and if you don’t need > its historical data, it can be deleted. > > Thank you, > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Oct 16, 2025, at 6:25 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Thanks Maverick. This turned out to be the answer. No ground wire was > needed. > > I found out the master inverter is faulty. I connected the cable to the > slave (after unparalleling) and it worked. Sol-Ark was surprisingly very > willing to send me a new MCU board without any argument. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Thu, Oct 16, 2025, 1:00 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, >> I have a couple working HomeGrid to Sol-Ark installs. >> >> The manual does seem to mix flavors of cable and even the cable that came >> with the HomeGrid install of 2024 has Ethernet Type A color code pin out. >> >> If you keep the pin out as type A, that is fine, but I made a chart with >> Type B wiring, attached. Also, I think you should not connect the other >> unnecessary wires on the Sol-Ark side, just to eliminate any issues. >> >> I also assume they are using CAN and not using RS485... >> >> >> Let me know how that works for you. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* >> * • Solar Commander Remote Power* >> >> * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection *maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> On Oct 16, 2025, at 9:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Does anyone know for sure what the correct pinout is on the communication >> cables for this pairing? Sol-Ark has multiple battery integration guide >> versions. >> >> Some show two wires connected to pins four and five on the inverter and >> seven and eight on the battery, respectively. In another version of the >> guide, four is connected to eight and five is connected to seven. In yet >> another version, a green wire is introduced. I have tried all three >> combinations, and none work. >> >> I can't get a straight answer out of either manufacturer, and of course >> they're both pointing fingers at each other regarding my battery >> communication issue. >> >> Sol-Ark is sending a firmware update and recommended a factory reset. >> That's the next step, but it doesn't answer the question about the correct >> pinout. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Sat Nov 15 16:35:51 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2025 16:35:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Boy swapping In-Reply-To: <1078770883.4539704.1763227098477.JavaMail.zimbra@psln.com> References: <0CEF7E1B-8768-4970-8546-3630241DFE20@mavericksolar.com> <1078770883.4539704.1763227098477.JavaMail.zimbra@psln.com> Message-ID: It should not be a problem at all to swap a -40 or -41 for a -22. Cheers, Dave On Sat, Nov 15, 2025, 12:18 PM Bill P. Battagin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey wrenchers, > > Anybody see an issue with swapping out a failed SB6000TL-us-22 > with a SB6.0-1SP-US-40 or 41. The string voltages and amps work for both > with this array. > Thanks, Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > www.frenergy.net > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > > ------------------------------ > *From: *"Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *To: *"RE-wrenches" > *Cc: *"Maverick Brown" > *Sent: *Thursday, October 16, 2025 5:11:37 PM > *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15K and HomeGrid - Comm Cable Pinout > > As a side note, > I just swapped a pair of 12k MCU boards. Pretty easy for the 12k and I > left them hanging on the wall but completely shutdown. > > That’s a great time for an AC bypass. > > The MCU board has the device ID, aka inverter serial number. > > So, when you swap them out, you’ll need to re parallel the group and > likely with Sol-Ark on the line. > > Then, the old “inverter” will show as disconnected and if you don’t need > its historical data, it can be deleted. > > Thank you, > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Oct 16, 2025, at 6:25 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Thanks Maverick. This turned out to be the answer. No ground wire was > needed. > > I found out the master inverter is faulty. I connected the cable to the > slave (after unparalleling) and it worked. Sol-Ark was surprisingly very > willing to send me a new MCU board without any argument. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Thu, Oct 16, 2025, 1:00 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, >> I have a couple working HomeGrid to Sol-Ark installs. >> >> The manual does seem to mix flavors of cable and even the cable that came >> with the HomeGrid install of 2024 has Ethernet Type A color code pin out. >> >> If you keep the pin out as type A, that is fine, but I made a chart with >> Type B wiring, attached. Also, I think you should not connect the other >> unnecessary wires on the Sol-Ark side, just to eliminate any issues. >> >> I also assume they are using CAN and not using RS485... >> >> >> Let me know how that works for you. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* >> * • Solar Commander Remote Power* >> >> * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection *maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> On Oct 16, 2025, at 9:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Does anyone know for sure what the correct pinout is on the communication >> cables for this pairing? Sol-Ark has multiple battery integration guide >> versions. >> >> Some show two wires connected to pins four and five on the inverter and >> seven and eight on the battery, respectively. In another version of the >> guide, four is connected to eight and five is connected to seven. In yet >> another version, a green wire is introduced. I have tried all three >> combinations, and none work. >> >> I can't get a straight answer out of either manufacturer, and of course >> they're both pointing fingers at each other regarding my battery >> communication issue. >> >> Sol-Ark is sending a firmware update and recommended a factory reset. >> That's the next step, but it doesn't answer the question about the correct >> pinout. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 17:11:10 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2025 14:11:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuses for battery busbars Message-ID: Greetings Wrenches, I am looking for a product that allows a 250A fuse to be added at the post connection of a battery busbar. Specifically, nominal 48v combiner busbar for multiple lifepo4 batteries. What I really want is something that can be added right at the connection point of the busbar where the lug attaches to the busbar. Compact form function helps...something similar to a "fusible link" type thing but not cheap junk and rated for 50-60v. I like the little fuses that victron uses in their battery but want something that can retrofit into a conventional battery busbar. I appreciate any suggestions! Thank you in advance! Sunny Regards, Tyrone Houck Oregon Solarworks LLC CCB #204937 LRT #076 541-787-1366 tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 17:38:38 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2025 15:38:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuses for battery busbars In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <033001A7-4283-48FB-86B7-5B0D00332DC7@gmail.com> I’m not sure what buss bar you have but have you looked at Class T fuses? jay > On Nov 15, 2025, at 3:11 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Greetings Wrenches, > I am looking for a product that allows a 250A fuse to be added at the post connection of a battery busbar. Specifically, nominal 48v combiner busbar for multiple lifepo4 batteries. What I really want is something that can be added right at the connection point of the busbar where the lug attaches to the busbar. Compact form function helps...something similar to a "fusible link" type thing but not cheap junk and rated for 50-60v. I like the little fuses that victron uses in their battery but want something that can retrofit into a conventional battery busbar. I appreciate any suggestions! Thank you in advance! > Sunny Regards, > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 18:00:11 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2025 15:00:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuses for battery busbars In-Reply-To: <033001A7-4283-48FB-86B7-5B0D00332DC7@gmail.com> References: <033001A7-4283-48FB-86B7-5B0D00332DC7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah. I'm looking for something with a smaller footprint, ideally with one hole that physically goes between the lug and post.. I've seen them but can't remember the manufacturer.. I guess I could bolt a class T to the busbar and float the other end and just bolt the lug to it.. On Sat, Nov 15, 2025, 2:39 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I’m not sure what buss bar you have but have you looked at Class T fuses? > > jay > > On Nov 15, 2025, at 3:11 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Greetings Wrenches, > I am looking for a product that allows a 250A fuse to be added at the post > connection of a battery busbar. Specifically, nominal 48v combiner busbar > for multiple lifepo4 batteries. What I really want is something that can be > added right at the connection point of the busbar where the lug attaches to > the busbar. Compact form function helps...something similar to a "fusible > link" type thing but not cheap junk and rated for 50-60v. I like the little > fuses that victron uses in their battery but want something that can > retrofit into a conventional battery busbar. I appreciate any suggestions! > Thank you in advance! > Sunny Regards, > > Tyrone Houck > Oregon Solarworks LLC > CCB #204937 LRT #076 > 541-787-1366 > tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 18:10:36 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2025 15:10:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuses for battery busbars In-Reply-To: References: <033001A7-4283-48FB-86B7-5B0D00332DC7@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think I found what I was picturing...has anyone used Marine Rated Battery Fuses/terminal fuses in a battery combiner situation? Or would I be better off just bolting a class T fuse in between my lug and busbar.. the class T almost seems stronger but with more exposed metal.. This application isn't specific to a certain busbar but for discussion sake picture 4 batteries landing on a MNBCB 1000/2000 On Sat, Nov 15, 2025, 3:00 PM Tyrone Houck wrote: > Yeah. I'm looking for something with a smaller footprint, ideally with one > hole that physically goes between the lug and post.. I've seen them but > can't remember the manufacturer.. I guess I could bolt a class T to the > busbar and float the other end and just bolt the lug to it.. > > > > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2025, 2:39 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I’m not sure what buss bar you have but have you looked at Class T fuses? >> >> jay >> >> On Nov 15, 2025, at 3:11 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Greetings Wrenches, >> I am looking for a product that allows a 250A fuse to be added at the >> post connection of a battery busbar. Specifically, nominal 48v combiner >> busbar for multiple lifepo4 batteries. What I really want is something that >> can be added right at the connection point of the busbar where the lug >> attaches to the busbar. Compact form function helps...something similar to >> a "fusible link" type thing but not cheap junk and rated for 50-60v. I like >> the little fuses that victron uses in their battery but want something that >> can retrofit into a conventional battery busbar. I appreciate any >> suggestions! Thank you in advance! >> Sunny Regards, >> >> Tyrone Houck >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >> 541-787-1366 >> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 18:16:48 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2025 16:16:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuses for battery busbars In-Reply-To: References: <033001A7-4283-48FB-86B7-5B0D00332DC7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6DF47B44-37A3-4C8E-9DDF-E92C63390D78@gmail.com> do you mean like this? https://www.delcity.net/store/fuses-fuse-accessories/taps/marine-rated-battery-fuses/?mkwid=&crid=&mp_kw=&mp_mt=&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=18195815732&gbraid=0AAAAAD-3-ftBrJhT7rwpLMbxfXZIuexqw Marine Rated Battery Fuses delcity.net > On Nov 15, 2025, at 4:10 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I think I found what I was picturing...has anyone used Marine Rated Battery Fuses/terminal fuses in a battery combiner situation? Or would I be better off just bolting a class T fuse in between my lug and busbar.. the class T almost seems stronger but with more exposed metal.. > This application isn't specific to a certain busbar but for discussion sake picture 4 batteries landing on a MNBCB 1000/2000 > > > > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2025, 3:00 PM Tyrone Houck > wrote: >> Yeah. I'm looking for something with a smaller footprint, ideally with one hole that physically goes between the lug and post.. I've seen them but can't remember the manufacturer.. I guess I could bolt a class T to the busbar and float the other end and just bolt the lug to it.. >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 15, 2025, 2:39 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> I’m not sure what buss bar you have but have you looked at Class T fuses? >>> >>> jay >>> >>>> On Nov 15, 2025, at 3:11 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> >>>> Greetings Wrenches, >>>> I am looking for a product that allows a 250A fuse to be added at the post connection of a battery busbar. Specifically, nominal 48v combiner busbar for multiple lifepo4 batteries. What I really want is something that can be added right at the connection point of the busbar where the lug attaches to the busbar. Compact form function helps...something similar to a "fusible link" type thing but not cheap junk and rated for 50-60v. I like the little fuses that victron uses in their battery but want something that can retrofit into a conventional battery busbar. I appreciate any suggestions! Thank you in advance! >>>> Sunny Regards, >>>> >>>> Tyrone Houck >>>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>>> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >>>> 541-787-1366 >>>> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 78976_primary.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18124 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 18:26:30 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2025 15:26:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuses for battery busbars In-Reply-To: <6DF47B44-37A3-4C8E-9DDF-E92C63390D78@gmail.com> References: <033001A7-4283-48FB-86B7-5B0D00332DC7@gmail.com> <6DF47B44-37A3-4C8E-9DDF-E92C63390D78@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes. Something like that though I think they use a holder with a seperate attachment point. On Sat, Nov 15, 2025, 3:17 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > do you mean like this? > > > [image: 78976_primary.jpeg] > > Marine Rated Battery Fuses > > delcity.net > > > > > > On Nov 15, 2025, at 4:10 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I think I found what I was picturing...has anyone used Marine Rated > Battery Fuses/terminal fuses in a battery combiner situation? Or would I be > better off just bolting a class T fuse in between my lug and busbar.. the > class T almost seems stronger but with more exposed metal.. > This application isn't specific to a certain busbar but for discussion > sake picture 4 batteries landing on a MNBCB 1000/2000 > > > > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2025, 3:00 PM Tyrone Houck wrote: > >> Yeah. I'm looking for something with a smaller footprint, ideally with >> one hole that physically goes between the lug and post.. I've seen them but >> can't remember the manufacturer.. I guess I could bolt a class T to the >> busbar and float the other end and just bolt the lug to it.. >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 15, 2025, 2:39 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I’m not sure what buss bar you have but have you looked at Class T fuses? >>> >>> jay >>> >>> On Nov 15, 2025, at 3:11 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greetings Wrenches, >>> I am looking for a product that allows a 250A fuse to be added at the >>> post connection of a battery busbar. Specifically, nominal 48v combiner >>> busbar for multiple lifepo4 batteries. What I really want is something that >>> can be added right at the connection point of the busbar where the lug >>> attaches to the busbar. Compact form function helps...something similar to >>> a "fusible link" type thing but not cheap junk and rated for 50-60v. I like >>> the little fuses that victron uses in their battery but want something that >>> can retrofit into a conventional battery busbar. I appreciate any >>> suggestions! Thank you in advance! >>> Sunny Regards, >>> >>> Tyrone Houck >>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >>> 541-787-1366 >>> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 78976_primary.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18124 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 78976_primary.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18124 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Sat Nov 15 18:31:27 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2025 15:31:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuses for battery busbars In-Reply-To: <6DF47B44-37A3-4C8E-9DDF-E92C63390D78@gmail.com> References: <033001A7-4283-48FB-86B7-5B0D00332DC7@gmail.com> <6DF47B44-37A3-4C8E-9DDF-E92C63390D78@gmail.com> Message-ID: My thought is that if a class T burns up with the lug side floating it will potentially leave the live battery cable loose in the enclosure whereas the marine terminal fuse will still keep the cable captive and prevent a possible secondary fault condition. On Sat, Nov 15, 2025, 3:17 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > do you mean like this? > > > [image: 78976_primary.jpeg] > > Marine Rated Battery Fuses > > delcity.net > > > > > > On Nov 15, 2025, at 4:10 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I think I found what I was picturing...has anyone used Marine Rated > Battery Fuses/terminal fuses in a battery combiner situation? Or would I be > better off just bolting a class T fuse in between my lug and busbar.. the > class T almost seems stronger but with more exposed metal.. > This application isn't specific to a certain busbar but for discussion > sake picture 4 batteries landing on a MNBCB 1000/2000 > > > > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2025, 3:00 PM Tyrone Houck wrote: > >> Yeah. I'm looking for something with a smaller footprint, ideally with >> one hole that physically goes between the lug and post.. I've seen them but >> can't remember the manufacturer.. I guess I could bolt a class T to the >> busbar and float the other end and just bolt the lug to it.. >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 15, 2025, 2:39 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I’m not sure what buss bar you have but have you looked at Class T fuses? >>> >>> jay >>> >>> On Nov 15, 2025, at 3:11 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greetings Wrenches, >>> I am looking for a product that allows a 250A fuse to be added at the >>> post connection of a battery busbar. Specifically, nominal 48v combiner >>> busbar for multiple lifepo4 batteries. What I really want is something that >>> can be added right at the connection point of the busbar where the lug >>> attaches to the busbar. Compact form function helps...something similar to >>> a "fusible link" type thing but not cheap junk and rated for 50-60v. I like >>> the little fuses that victron uses in their battery but want something that >>> can retrofit into a conventional battery busbar. I appreciate any >>> suggestions! Thank you in advance! >>> Sunny Regards, >>> >>> Tyrone Houck >>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >>> 541-787-1366 >>> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 78976_primary.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18124 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 78976_primary.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18124 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve at surrette.com Sat Nov 15 18:53:21 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2025 15:53:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuses for battery busbars In-Reply-To: References: <033001A7-4283-48FB-86B7-5B0D00332DC7@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would the Class T Fuses... Outback used to supply those types of fuses with thier Marine inverters and they were bad... On Sat, Nov 15, 2025 at 3:12 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I think I found what I was picturing...has anyone used Marine Rated > Battery Fuses/terminal fuses in a battery combiner situation? Or would I be > better off just bolting a class T fuse in between my lug and busbar.. the > class T almost seems stronger but with more exposed metal.. > This application isn't specific to a certain busbar but for discussion > sake picture 4 batteries landing on a MNBCB 1000/2000 > > > > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2025, 3:00 PM Tyrone Houck wrote: > >> Yeah. I'm looking for something with a smaller footprint, ideally with >> one hole that physically goes between the lug and post.. I've seen them but >> can't remember the manufacturer.. I guess I could bolt a class T to the >> busbar and float the other end and just bolt the lug to it.. >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 15, 2025, 2:39 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I’m not sure what buss bar you have but have you looked at Class T fuses? >>> >>> jay >>> >>> On Nov 15, 2025, at 3:11 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greetings Wrenches, >>> I am looking for a product that allows a 250A fuse to be added at the >>> post connection of a battery busbar. Specifically, nominal 48v combiner >>> busbar for multiple lifepo4 batteries. What I really want is something that >>> can be added right at the connection point of the busbar where the lug >>> attaches to the busbar. Compact form function helps...something similar to >>> a "fusible link" type thing but not cheap junk and rated for 50-60v. I like >>> the little fuses that victron uses in their battery but want something that >>> can retrofit into a conventional battery busbar. I appreciate any >>> suggestions! Thank you in advance! >>> Sunny Regards, >>> >>> Tyrone Houck >>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>> CCB #204937 LRT #076 >>> 541-787-1366 >>> tyrone at oregonsolarworks.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Nov 15 19:05:14 2025 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2025 19:05:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuses for battery busbars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 16 09:07:38 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2025 16:07:38 +0200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] enphase tech support contact Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have a good contact at enphase? I am amidst a dismal technical support performance for a battery issue. I can't seem to get the field service department to get anyone to come and they won't let me troubleshoot. I seem to be in a loop where I am waiting for a call that never comes.... Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Nov 17 04:41:49 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2025 04:41:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] enphase tech support contact In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The field service teams are fairly local, as I understand it. My sales rep is a great resource. He forwards emails for me to the right department when I don't know where else to turn. If you don't know who covers your area, your supplier can probably tell you. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Sun, Nov 16, 2025 at 9:08 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone have a good contact at enphase? I am amidst a dismal > technical support performance for a battery issue. > > I can't seem to get the field service department to get anyone to come and > they won't let me troubleshoot. I seem to be in a loop where I am waiting > for a call that never comes.... > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Nov 17 22:09:25 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2025 19:09:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F Message-ID: Friends: I am having trouble locating these RSDs. Very few vendors appear to have these and I can’t get any to call back and verify they have them. I can’t get Tigo to return my calls. Does anyone know if these are discontinued? What are the rest of you doing for rapid shutdown? I don’t trust Alps: I have heard too many horror stories. It seems the form factor is too small to contain arc suppression measures. Somewhere I saw as an alternative the Tigo TS4-A-O. These are optimizers. I worry these will fight with the MPPT algorithm in the inverter or charge controller. There is also the TS4-A-S which has shutdown and monitoring. All input is welcome an appreciated. Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Mon Nov 17 23:44:39 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2025 20:44:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1C18CBAD-9632-458B-A05C-100AE0449B30@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Nov 18 08:44:22 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2025 08:44:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: <1C18CBAD-9632-458B-A05C-100AE0449B30@gmail.com> References: <1C18CBAD-9632-458B-A05C-100AE0449B30@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4a4dbf46-2eff-4b1e-906e-e2353cb30aee@entech-engineering.com> I recently got the TS4 A-Os when I thought I ordered the TS A Fs and was also worried about the possible fighting between the two MPPT devices.  As was under the gun for weather and end of year, went with the AO's. Have you tried emailing "support at tigoenergy.com"? I went through AI and found this document: On 11/17/2025 11:44 PM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: > We are having no issues sourcing these from our primary vendor, > Greentech. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > >> On Nov 17, 2025, at 7:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Friends: >> >> I am having trouble locating these RSDs.  Very few vendors appear to >> have these and I can’t get any to call back and verify they have >> them.  I can’t get Tigo to return my calls.  Does anyone know if >> these are discontinued? >> >> What are the rest of you doing for rapid shutdown?  I don’t trust >> Alps:  I have heard too many horror stories.  It seems the form >> factor is too small to contain arc suppression measures. >> >> Somewhere I saw as an alternative the Tigo TS4-A-O.  These are >> optimizers.  I worry these will fight with the MPPT algorithm in the >> inverter or charge controller.  There is also the TS4-A-S which has >> shutdown and monitoring. >> >> All input is welcome an appreciated.  Thanks in advance. >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2WwrrzQMi1zkvgzt.png Type: image/png Size: 232513 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Nov 18 10:55:33 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2025 07:55:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: <4a4dbf46-2eff-4b1e-906e-e2353cb30aee@entech-engineering.com> References: <1C18CBAD-9632-458B-A05C-100AE0449B30@gmail.com> <4a4dbf46-2eff-4b1e-906e-e2353cb30aee@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Christopher: Thank you. How is it that one can put optimized inverters in front of a standard MPPT algorithm? Don’t they work against each other? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Nov 18, 2025 at 5:47 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I recently got the TS4 A-Os when I thought I ordered the TS A Fs and was > also worried about the possible fighting between the two MPPT devices. As > was under the gun for weather and end of year, went with the AO's. Have you > tried emailing "support at tigoenergy.com" ? > > I went through AI and found this document: > > > > On 11/17/2025 11:44 PM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > We are having no issues sourcing these from our primary vendor, Greentech. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Nov 17, 2025, at 7:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > > > I am having trouble locating these RSDs. Very few vendors appear to have > these and I can’t get any to call back and verify they have them. I can’t > get Tigo to return my calls. Does anyone know if these are discontinued? > > > > What are the rest of you doing for rapid shutdown? I don’t trust Alps: I > have heard too many horror stories. It seems the form factor is too small > to contain arc suppression measures. > > > > Somewhere I saw as an alternative the Tigo TS4-A-O. These are > optimizers. I worry these will fight with the MPPT algorithm in the > inverter or charge controller. There is also the TS4-A-S which has > shutdown and monitoring. > > > > All input is welcome an appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2WwrrzQMi1zkvgzt.png Type: image/png Size: 232513 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Nov 18 10:59:59 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2025 07:59:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: <1C18CBAD-9632-458B-A05C-100AE0449B30@gmail.com> References: <1C18CBAD-9632-458B-A05C-100AE0449B30@gmail.com> Message-ID: All they have locally are the 2F versions which suck to install. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Mon, Nov 17, 2025 at 8:44 PM MDElectricSolar wrote: > We are having no issues sourcing these from our primary vendor, Greentech. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Nov 17, 2025, at 7:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > > > I am having trouble locating these RSDs. Very few vendors appear to have > these and I can’t get any to call back and verify they have them. I can’t > get Tigo to return my calls. Does anyone know if these are discontinued? > > > > What are the rest of you doing for rapid shutdown? I don’t trust Alps: I > have heard too many horror stories. It seems the form factor is too small > to contain arc suppression measures. > > > > Somewhere I saw as an alternative the Tigo TS4-A-O. These are > optimizers. I worry these will fight with the MPPT algorithm in the > inverter or charge controller. There is also the TS4-A-S which has > shutdown and monitoring. > > > > All input is welcome an appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Nov 18 12:48:55 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2025 12:48:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: <1C18CBAD-9632-458B-A05C-100AE0449B30@gmail.com> <4a4dbf46-2eff-4b1e-906e-e2353cb30aee@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: I would have thought so.  I can just see them saying tweak this, no tweak that.  But I going to have to assume their statement is valid.  I hope to fire it up in the next week.  My first EG4 so I need to learn how to commission this first. On 11/18/2025 10:55 AM, William Miller wrote: > Christopher: > > Thank you. > > How is it that one can put optimized inverters in front of a standard > MPPT algorithm?  Don’t they work against each other? > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2025 at 5:47 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I recently got the TS4 A-Os when I thought I ordered the TS A Fs > and was also worried about the possible fighting between the two > MPPT devices.  As was under the gun for weather and end of year, > went with the AO's. Have you tried emailing > "support at tigoenergy.com" ? > > I went through AI and found this document: > > > > On 11/17/2025 11:44 PM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> We are having no issues sourcing these from our primary vendor, >> Greentech. >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> >>> On Nov 17, 2025, at 7:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> I am having trouble locating these RSDs.  Very few vendors >>> appear to have these and I can’t get any to call back and verify >>> they have them.  I can’t get Tigo to return my calls. Does >>> anyone know if these are discontinued? >>> >>> What are the rest of you doing for rapid shutdown?  I don’t >>> trust Alps:  I have heard too many horror stories.  It seems the >>> form factor is too small to contain arc suppression measures. >>> >>> Somewhere I saw as an alternative the Tigo TS4-A-O. These are >>> optimizers.  I worry these will fight with the MPPT algorithm in >>> the inverter or charge controller.  There is also the TS4-A-S >>> which has shutdown and monitoring. >>> >>> All input is welcome an appreciated.  Thanks in advance. >>> >>> William >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2WwrrzQMi1zkvgzt.png Type: image/png Size: 232513 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Nov 18 13:44:47 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2025 10:44:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: <1C18CBAD-9632-458B-A05C-100AE0449B30@gmail.com> <4a4dbf46-2eff-4b1e-906e-e2353cb30aee@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: I meant to write: “optimized PV in front of MPPT inputs,” but I think you know what I meant. Let us know how it goes. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Nov 18, 2025 at 9:49 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > I would have thought so. I can just see them saying tweak this, no tweak > that. But I going to have to assume their statement is valid. I hope to > fire it up in the next week. My first EG4 so I need to learn how to > commission this first. > On 11/18/2025 10:55 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Christopher: > > Thank you. > > How is it that one can put optimized inverters in front of a standard MPPT > algorithm? Don’t they work against each other? > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2025 at 5:47 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I recently got the TS4 A-Os when I thought I ordered the TS A Fs and was >> also worried about the possible fighting between the two MPPT devices. As >> was under the gun for weather and end of year, went with the AO's. Have you >> tried emailing "support at tigoenergy.com" ? >> >> I went through AI and found this document: >> >> >> >> On 11/17/2025 11:44 PM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> We are having no issues sourcing these from our primary vendor, >> Greentech. >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> On Nov 17, 2025, at 7:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches >> >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I am having trouble locating these RSDs. Very few vendors appear to have >> these and I can’t get any to call back and verify they have them. I can’t >> get Tigo to return my calls. Does anyone know if these are discontinued? >> >> >> >> What are the rest of you doing for rapid shutdown? I don’t trust Alps: >> I have heard too many horror stories. It seems the form factor is too >> small to contain arc suppression measures. >> >> >> >> Somewhere I saw as an alternative the Tigo TS4-A-O. These are >> optimizers. I worry these will fight with the MPPT algorithm in the >> inverter or charge controller. There is also the TS4-A-S which has >> shutdown and monitoring. >> >> >> >> All input is welcome an appreciated. Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel, PE >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> (401) 447-5773 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2WwrrzQMi1zkvgzt.png Type: image/png Size: 232513 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Tue Nov 18 13:51:45 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2025 10:51:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Exactly what kinds of failures have people been having on the APsystems RSD units? That's what I've been using when I encounter a roof (mostly because of availability with my distributors, but also being able to easily tuck them into the channel instead of having to mess with bolts or clips). I have not had any failures that I know of yet... but depends on what their failure mode, failing open or closed or what. If they fail closed, it would not be apparent till someone tested or tried to use the RSD system. Zeke -- Zeke Yewdall PV Engineer NABCEP #031508-89 zeke at darkforestsolar.com 303-523-3592 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Nov 19 00:51:19 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2025 21:51:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01caf839dd6ff43ccc5af9d217fd269e@mail.gmail.com> Zeke: When this subject came up one of the wrenches replied to me off-list and shared photos of an Alps RSD that had burned up. He said tech support was of little help. Since then I have heard similar stories about Tigo products. I think the problem is trying to interrupt high voltage / high current PV DC under load. To do this with a mechanical switch you would see large blades surrounded by arc chutes, plastic shields and a metal can. Doing this switching in a small plastic nodule seems impractical. I am the last one to discount safety equipment--electrical fires kill a lot of people. However I am convinced that the RSS requirement preceded the availability equipment to implement the requirement and that gap has not closed. Now with UL3471 diluting the seriousness of hazard levels, RSS seems even more ludicrous. It is especially onerous to require module level RSS on ground mount arrays. Even more galling is the inability to complete a job I am in the middle of because there is apparently a nationwide shortage of RSDs. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, November 18, 2025 10:52 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Zeke Yewdall *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F Exactly what kinds of failures have people been having on the APsystems RSD units? That's what I've been using when I encounter a roof (mostly because of availability with my distributors, but also being able to easily tuck them into the channel instead of having to mess with bolts or clips). I have not had any failures that I know of yet... but depends on what their failure mode, failing open or closed or what. If they fail closed, it would not be apparent till someone tested or tried to use the RSD system. Zeke -- Zeke Yewdall PV Engineer NABCEP #031508-89 zeke at darkforestsolar.com 303-523-3592 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 09:40:00 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2025 07:40:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: <01caf839dd6ff43ccc5af9d217fd269e@mail.gmail.com> References: <01caf839dd6ff43ccc5af9d217fd269e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Wed Nov 19 10:48:29 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2025 07:48:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: <01caf839dd6ff43ccc5af9d217fd269e@mail.gmail.com> References: <01caf839dd6ff43ccc5af9d217fd269e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You mention doing RSS on ground mounted PV arrays. This seems completely not required by the code. From my reading of 690.12, module level remote controlled rapid shutdown is only required on inhabited structures -- ones that may involve roof operations of the fire department for ventilation. Even detached garages with no occupancy do not appear to require it. If we are just talking about the conductors coming off of the array going into a home, it seems to me (and my inspectors have always agreed.. not initially, but after I discussed it with them) that a switch mounted on the groundmount array or where the underground conduit came up to go into the building would suffice. Zeke On Tue, Nov 18, 2025 at 10:10 PM William Miller wrote: > Zeke: > > > > When this subject came up one of the wrenches replied to me off-list and > shared photos of an Alps RSD that had burned up. He said tech support was > of little help. > > > > Since then I have heard similar stories about Tigo products. > > > > I think the problem is trying to interrupt high voltage / high current PV > DC under load. To do this with a mechanical switch you would see large > blades surrounded by arc chutes, plastic shields and a metal can. Doing > this switching in a small plastic nodule seems impractical. > > > > I am the last one to discount safety equipment--electrical fires kill a > lot of people. However I am convinced that the RSS requirement preceded > the availability equipment to implement the requirement and that gap has > not closed. Now with UL3471 diluting the seriousness of hazard levels, RSS > seems even more ludicrous. It is especially onerous to require module > level RSS on ground mount arrays. > > > > Even more galling is the inability to complete a job I am in the middle of > because there is apparently a nationwide shortage of RSDs. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Nov 19 11:24:03 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2025 08:24:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: <01caf839dd6ff43ccc5af9d217fd269e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: To paraphrase: If PV circuits are located on or in any structure RSS is required. Exception: if the structure’s sole purpose is to house solar equipment then RSS is not required. If your inverter is in a shed and there is one rake in that shed, RSS is required. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 7:50 AM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > You mention doing RSS on ground mounted PV arrays. This seems completely > not required by the code. From my reading of 690.12, module level remote > controlled rapid shutdown is only required on inhabited structures -- ones > that may involve roof operations of the fire department for ventilation. > Even detached garages with no occupancy do not appear to require it. If we > are just talking about the conductors coming off of the array going into a > home, it seems to me (and my inspectors have always agreed.. not initially, > but after I discussed it with them) that a switch mounted on the > groundmount array or where the underground conduit came up to go into the > building would suffice. > > Zeke > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2025 at 10:10 PM William Miller > wrote: > >> Zeke: >> >> >> >> When this subject came up one of the wrenches replied to me off-list and >> shared photos of an Alps RSD that had burned up. He said tech support was >> of little help. >> >> >> >> Since then I have heard similar stories about Tigo products. >> >> >> >> I think the problem is trying to interrupt high voltage / high current PV >> DC under load. To do this with a mechanical switch you would see large >> blades surrounded by arc chutes, plastic shields and a metal can. Doing >> this switching in a small plastic nodule seems impractical. >> >> >> >> I am the last one to discount safety equipment--electrical fires kill a >> lot of people. However I am convinced that the RSS requirement preceded >> the availability equipment to implement the requirement and that gap has >> not closed. Now with UL3471 diluting the seriousness of hazard levels, RSS >> seems even more ludicrous. It is especially onerous to require module >> level RSS on ground mount arrays. >> >> >> >> Even more galling is the inability to complete a job I am in the middle >> of because there is apparently a nationwide shortage of RSDs. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 12:11:46 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2025 09:11:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Appears that Zonna still has quite a few in stock. Feeling foolish to purchase more after having a TS4-2F fail into a pile of molten plastic and ruin a 405 watt bifacial module that I can no longer find a replacement for. What other options do we have for small DC coupled arrays on residential rooftops though? Not the most inspiring times to be installing rooftop PV. Hopefully I'll start having better luck with the single module units. Numerous times I've had units become bricked and not pass module voltage but this is the first time I've had this type of catastrophic failure that also inconveniently cost me the module. Nick On Mon, Nov 17, 2025 at 7:10 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am having trouble locating these RSDs. Very few vendors appear to have > these and I can’t get any to call back and verify they have them. I can’t > get Tigo to return my calls. Does anyone know if these are discontinued? > > > > What are the rest of you doing for rapid shutdown? I don’t trust Alps: I > have heard too many horror stories. It seems the form factor is too small > to contain arc suppression measures. > > > > Somewhere I saw as an alternative the Tigo TS4-A-O. These are > optimizers. I worry these will fight with the MPPT algorithm in the > inverter or charge controller. There is also the TS4-A-S which has > shutdown and monitoring. > > > > All input is welcome an appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Tigo TS4-2F.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 786907 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 13:51:24 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2025 11:51:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 14:01:59 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2025 14:01:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My understanding is that unless something was changed in the last few years that I'm not aware of (which is entirely possible), if PV conductors even land on the outside of an interior space where people can be, whether originating on a ground mount or a roof mount, RSD is required (unless it meets the newish integrated panel/racking UL listing, typically in commercial settings). Howie Michaelson On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 1:52 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Zeke > > I’ve never had to do RSS on a ground array because > > 1. It’s not a structure > 2 if it is a structure then it’s only being used for solar which makes it > exempt from RSS. > > Of course your crazy AHJ might have a different opinion > > > > On Nov 19, 2025, at 8:50 AM, Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > You mention doing RSS on ground mounted PV arrays. This seems completely > not required by the code. From my reading of 690.12, module level remote > controlled rapid shutdown is only required on inhabited structures -- ones > that may involve roof operations of the fire department for ventilation. > Even detached garages with no occupancy do not appear to require it. If we > are just talking about the conductors coming off of the array going into a > home, it seems to me (and my inspectors have always agreed.. not initially, > but after I discussed it with them) that a switch mounted on the > groundmount array or where the underground conduit came up to go into the > building would suffice. > > Zeke > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2025 at 10:10 PM William Miller > wrote: > >> Zeke: >> >> >> >> When this subject came up one of the wrenches replied to me off-list and >> shared photos of an Alps RSD that had burned up. He said tech support was >> of little help. >> >> >> >> Since then I have heard similar stories about Tigo products. >> >> >> >> I think the problem is trying to interrupt high voltage / high current PV >> DC under load. To do this with a mechanical switch you would see large >> blades surrounded by arc chutes, plastic shields and a metal can. Doing >> this switching in a small plastic nodule seems impractical. >> >> >> >> I am the last one to discount safety equipment--electrical fires kill a >> lot of people. However I am convinced that the RSS requirement preceded >> the availability equipment to implement the requirement and that gap has >> not closed. Now with UL3471 diluting the seriousness of hazard levels, RSS >> seems even more ludicrous. It is especially onerous to require module >> level RSS on ground mount arrays. >> >> >> >> Even more galling is the inability to complete a job I am in the middle >> of because there is apparently a nationwide shortage of RSDs. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Wed Nov 19 14:40:43 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2025 11:40:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: <01caf839dd6ff43ccc5af9d217fd269e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, you are right -- even a non occupied garage or shed would be required to have it if it's not solely for the PV system under exception #1. But I was thinking of Exception #2: PV equipment and circuits installed on nonenclosed detached structures including but not limited to parking shade structures, carports, solar trellises, and similar structures shall not be required to comply with 690.12. That seems to pretty clearly cover ground mounts. Also we have the exception that conductors originating from arrays not attached to buildings, that terminate on the exterior of buildings don't need to be considered as controlled conductors. If they're going into an inverter inside a building but the PV array is not on the building, does an external accessible DC disconnect count as ending those conductors, and the output from the disconnect is no longer a controlled conductor either? Zeke On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 8:24 AM William Miller wrote: > To paraphrase: If PV circuits are located on or in any structure RSS is > required. Exception: if the structure’s sole purpose is to house solar > equipment then RSS is not required. > > If your inverter is in a shed and there is one rake in that shed, RSS is > required. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 15:03:10 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2025 13:03:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: <01caf839dd6ff43ccc5af9d217fd269e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6006817C-9845-407D-BF6D-BF741DE6D43C@gmail.com> Hi Zeke, you are correct in regards to parking structures. See the following 2023 NEC 690.12 exemption #2 > On Nov 19, 2025, at 12:40 PM, Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Yes, you are right -- even a non occupied garage or shed would be required to have it if it's not solely for the PV system under exception #1. But I was thinking of Exception #2: PV equipment and circuits installed on nonenclosed detached structures including but not limited to parking shade structures, carports, solar trellises, and similar structures shall not be required to comply with 690.12. That seems to pretty clearly cover ground mounts. > > Also we have the exception that conductors originating from arrays not attached to buildings, that terminate on the exterior of buildings don't need to be considered as controlled conductors. If they're going into an inverter inside a building but the PV array is not on the building, does an external accessible DC disconnect count as ending those conductors, and the output from the disconnect is no longer a controlled conductor either? > > Zeke > > On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 8:24 AM William Miller > wrote: >> To paraphrase: If PV circuits are located on or in any structure RSS is required. Exception: if the structure’s sole purpose is to house solar equipment then RSS is not required. >> >> If your inverter is in a shed and there is one rake in that shed, RSS is required. >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 15:13:20 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2025 15:13:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: <6006817C-9845-407D-BF6D-BF741DE6D43C@gmail.com> References: <01caf839dd6ff43ccc5af9d217fd269e@mail.gmail.com> <6006817C-9845-407D-BF6D-BF741DE6D43C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I can not determine if RSD is still required for PV mounted on non-enclosed structures if the DC conductors are brought into a dwelling where the inverter is located? This is an important consideration when installing batteries in cold country. Howie Michaelson On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 3:06 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Zeke, > > you are correct in regards to parking structures. > See the following > 2023 NEC > > 690.12 > exemption #2 > > > On Nov 19, 2025, at 12:40 PM, Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Yes, you are right -- even a non occupied garage or shed would be required > to have it if it's not solely for the PV system under exception #1. But I > was thinking of Exception #2: PV equipment and circuits installed on > nonenclosed detached structures including but not limited to parking shade > structures, carports, solar trellises, and similar structures shall not be > required to comply with 690.12. That seems to pretty clearly cover > ground mounts. > > Also we have the exception that conductors originating from arrays not > attached to buildings, that terminate on the exterior of buildings don't > need to be considered as controlled conductors. If they're going into an > inverter inside a building but the PV array is not on the building, does an > external accessible DC disconnect count as ending those conductors, and the > output from the disconnect is no longer a controlled conductor either? > > Zeke > > On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 8:24 AM William Miller > wrote: > >> To paraphrase: If PV circuits are located on or in any structure RSS is >> required. Exception: if the structure’s sole purpose is to house solar >> equipment then RSS is not required. >> >> If your inverter is in a shed and there is one rake in that shed, RSS is >> required. >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Wed Nov 19 19:09:20 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2025 16:09:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: With regards to ground mount conductors entering a building to the inverter and batteries inside. It doesn't make any sense to require RSD, because RSD is about array safety and we've agreed that for a ground mount the RSD requirement does not apply. A disconnect switch has always been an acceptable means of shutting down conductors -- whether from a PV array, the grid, a generator, or other power source. So why would a disconnect not suffice in this case, rather than putting RSD on the array. Not saying that's what the code says... but logically, the intent of RSD for conductor safety could be met with a disconnect switch where they enter the building, it seems. -- Zeke Yewdall PV Engineer NABCEP #031508-89 zeke at darkforestsolar.com 303-523-3592 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Thu Nov 20 10:57:45 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2025 07:57:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Zeke, I agree - especially if we revisit the original intent behind RSD: keep firefighters safe from contacting live electric parts. Firefighters have no reason to directly touch a burning ground mounted solar array, nor even approach it. I think I have voiced already my contempt for RSD in general. I can hear the logic "For firefighter safety, we cannot have 600V+ on a rooftop." That is a fair position to take. Unfortunately reality reveals that the RSD units being manufactured are *not* built to safety standards that the world needs. RSD devices are dangerous now, they are buggy, have a high rate of failure, and they are causing far more problems than they solve. In my opinion the RSD requirement should be suspended until manufacturers are held to higher quality and reliability standards. On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 4:10 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > With regards to ground mount conductors entering a building to the > inverter and batteries inside. It doesn't make any sense to require RSD, > because RSD is about array safety and we've agreed that for a ground mount > the RSD requirement does not apply. A disconnect switch has always been an > acceptable means of shutting down conductors -- whether from a PV array, > the grid, a generator, or other power source. So why would a disconnect > not suffice in this case, rather than putting RSD on the array. Not > saying that's what the code says... but logically, the intent of RSD for > conductor safety could be met with a disconnect switch where they enter the > building, it seems. > > > > -- > Zeke Yewdall > PV Engineer > NABCEP #031508-89 > zeke at darkforestsolar.com > 303-523-3592 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Thu Nov 20 11:32:04 2025 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2025 16:32:04 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have a multitude of these same issues with the TS40-A-F. We followed every new guideline from Tigo in order to avoid corrupted signals but still had issues. After a hot breezy day in NJ last year caused a Tigo failure to spread the roof caught on fire and caused millions in damage. Thankfully no one was injured. We spent the rest of 2024 pulling 6 MW's of Tigos off of other roofs for this customer. I have heard multiple stories of similar issues for many very experienced installers. David Buckner SES ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2025 12:11 PM To: william at millersolar.com ; RE-wrenches Cc: Nick Lucchese Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F CAUTION: External Email. Appears that Zonna still has quite a few in stock. Feeling foolish to purchase more after having a TS4-2F fail into a pile of molten plastic and ruin a 405 watt bifacial module that I can no longer find a replacement for. What other options do we have for small DC coupled arrays on residential rooftops though? Not the most inspiring times to be installing rooftop PV. Hopefully I'll start having better luck with the single module units. Numerous times I've had units become bricked and not pass module voltage but this is the first time I've had this type of catastrophic failure that also inconveniently cost me the module. Nick On Mon, Nov 17, 2025 at 7:10 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Friends: I am having trouble locating these RSDs. Very few vendors appear to have these and I can’t get any to call back and verify they have them. I can’t get Tigo to return my calls. Does anyone know if these are discontinued? What are the rest of you doing for rapid shutdown? I don’t trust Alps: I have heard too many horror stories. It seems the form factor is too small to contain arc suppression measures. Somewhere I saw as an alternative the Tigo TS4-A-O. These are optimizers. I worry these will fight with the MPPT algorithm in the inverter or charge controller. There is also the TS4-A-S which has shutdown and monitoring. All input is welcome an appreciated. Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 12:03:00 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2025 12:03:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Were these Tigo TS4 A-Os or A-Fs? If A-Fs, are there similar stories about the A-Os? Howie Michaelson On Thu, Nov 20, 2025 at 11:33 AM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We have a multitude of these same issues with the TS40-A-F. We followed > every new guideline from Tigo in order to avoid corrupted signals but still > had issues. After a hot breezy day in NJ last year caused a Tigo failure > to spread the roof caught on fire and caused millions in damage. > Thankfully no one was injured. We spent the rest of 2024 pulling 6 MW's of > Tigos off of other roofs for this customer. I have heard multiple stories > of similar issues for many very experienced installers. > > David Buckner > SES > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 19, 2025 12:11 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com ; RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Cc:* Nick Lucchese > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F > > CAUTION: External Email. > Appears that Zonna still has quite a few in stock. Feeling foolish to > purchase more after having a TS4-2F fail into a pile of molten plastic and > ruin a 405 watt bifacial module that I can no longer find a replacement > for. What other options do we have for small DC coupled arrays on > residential rooftops though? Not the most inspiring times to be installing > rooftop PV. Hopefully I'll start having better luck with the single module > units. Numerous times I've had units become bricked and not pass module > voltage but this is the first time I've had this type of catastrophic > failure that also inconveniently cost me the module. > > Nick > > > > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2025 at 7:10 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I am having trouble locating these RSDs. Very few vendors appear to have > these and I can’t get any to call back and verify they have them. I can’t > get Tigo to return my calls. Does anyone know if these are discontinued? > > > > What are the rest of you doing for rapid shutdown? I don’t trust Alps: I > have heard too many horror stories. It seems the form factor is too small > to contain arc suppression measures. > > > > Somewhere I saw as an alternative the Tigo TS4-A-O. These are > optimizers. I worry these will fight with the MPPT algorithm in the > inverter or charge controller. There is also the TS4-A-S which has > shutdown and monitoring. > > > > All input is welcome an appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Thu Nov 20 12:03:15 2025 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2025 17:03:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Evidence of failures and related issues * Overheating and fire: Multiple sources, including court documents, describe Tigo RSDs that showed signs of extreme overheating, melting, or being completely incinerated. * Legal action: A lawsuit was filed against Tigo Energy alleging their RSDs posed a clear threat of death, injury, and property damage, with plaintiffs shutting down their own systems as a result. Systemic problems: Some reports suggest that failures are not isolated, with multiple devices failing across different projects. * Allegations of a cover-up: The aforementioned lawsuit includes claims that Tigo was aware of risks and failed to adequately warn customers, suggesting a cover-up was in progress, notes Courthouse News. ________________________________ From: David Buckner Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2025 11:32 AM To: william at millersolar.com ; RE-wrenches Cc: Nick Lucchese Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F We have a multitude of these same issues with the TS40-A-F. We followed every new guideline from Tigo in order to avoid corrupted signals but still had issues. After a hot breezy day in NJ last year caused a Tigo failure to spread the roof caught on fire and caused millions in damage. Thankfully no one was injured. We spent the rest of 2024 pulling 6 MW's of Tigos off of other roofs for this customer. I have heard multiple stories of similar issues for many very experienced installers. David Buckner SES ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2025 12:11 PM To: william at millersolar.com ; RE-wrenches Cc: Nick Lucchese Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F CAUTION: External Email. Appears that Zonna still has quite a few in stock. Feeling foolish to purchase more after having a TS4-2F fail into a pile of molten plastic and ruin a 405 watt bifacial module that I can no longer find a replacement for. What other options do we have for small DC coupled arrays on residential rooftops though? Not the most inspiring times to be installing rooftop PV. Hopefully I'll start having better luck with the single module units. Numerous times I've had units become bricked and not pass module voltage but this is the first time I've had this type of catastrophic failure that also inconveniently cost me the module. Nick On Mon, Nov 17, 2025 at 7:10 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Friends: I am having trouble locating these RSDs. Very few vendors appear to have these and I can’t get any to call back and verify they have them. I can’t get Tigo to return my calls. Does anyone know if these are discontinued? What are the rest of you doing for rapid shutdown? I don’t trust Alps: I have heard too many horror stories. It seems the form factor is too small to contain arc suppression measures. Somewhere I saw as an alternative the Tigo TS4-A-O. These are optimizers. I worry these will fight with the MPPT algorithm in the inverter or charge controller. There is also the TS4-A-S which has shutdown and monitoring. All input is welcome an appreciated. Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Tigo Energy Civil Action 3-26-24.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 195427 bytes Desc: Tigo Energy Civil Action 3-26-24.pdf URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 12:53:53 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2025 09:53:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Has anybody had any failures of APSmart RSD-S-PLC's? I asked this before and got no responses. I have had no issues myself and they seem consistent and straightforward. On Thu, Nov 20, 2025, 9:06 AM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Evidence of failures and related issues > > - Overheating and fire: Multiple sources, including court documents, > describe Tigo RSDs that showed signs of extreme overheating, melting, or > being completely incinerated. > - Legal action: A lawsuit was filed against Tigo Energy alleging their > RSDs posed a clear threat of death, injury, and property damage, with > plaintiffs shutting down their own systems as a result. > > Systemic problems: Some reports suggest that failures are not isolated, > with multiple devices failing across different projects. > > - Allegations of a cover-up: The aforementioned lawsuit includes > claims that Tigo was aware of risks and failed to adequately warn > customers, suggesting a cover-up was in progress, *notes Courthouse > News > * > . > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Buckner > *Sent:* Thursday, November 20, 2025 11:32 AM > *To:* william at millersolar.com ; RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Cc:* Nick Lucchese > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F > > We have a multitude of these same issues with the TS40-A-F. We followed > every new guideline from Tigo in order to avoid corrupted signals but still > had issues. After a hot breezy day in NJ last year caused a Tigo failure > to spread the roof caught on fire and caused millions in damage. > Thankfully no one was injured. We spent the rest of 2024 pulling 6 MW's of > Tigos off of other roofs for this customer. I have heard multiple stories > of similar issues for many very experienced installers. > > David Buckner > SES > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 19, 2025 12:11 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com ; RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Cc:* Nick Lucchese > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F > > CAUTION: External Email. > Appears that Zonna still has quite a few in stock. Feeling foolish to > purchase more after having a TS4-2F fail into a pile of molten plastic and > ruin a 405 watt bifacial module that I can no longer find a replacement > for. What other options do we have for small DC coupled arrays on > residential rooftops though? Not the most inspiring times to be installing > rooftop PV. Hopefully I'll start having better luck with the single module > units. Numerous times I've had units become bricked and not pass module > voltage but this is the first time I've had this type of catastrophic > failure that also inconveniently cost me the module. > > Nick > > > > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2025 at 7:10 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I am having trouble locating these RSDs. Very few vendors appear to have > these and I can’t get any to call back and verify they have them. I can’t > get Tigo to return my calls. Does anyone know if these are discontinued? > > > > What are the rest of you doing for rapid shutdown? I don’t trust Alps: I > have heard too many horror stories. It seems the form factor is too small > to contain arc suppression measures. > > > > Somewhere I saw as an alternative the Tigo TS4-A-O. These are > optimizers. I worry these will fight with the MPPT algorithm in the > inverter or charge controller. There is also the TS4-A-S which has > shutdown and monitoring. > > > > All input is welcome an appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.kocsmiersky at e3co.com Thu Nov 20 14:46:27 2025 From: michael.kocsmiersky at e3co.com (Kocsmiersky, Michael) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2025 19:46:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To further David’s assessment of the Tigo TS4-A-F devices. I looked into an issue about a year or two ago with failed Tigo units suffering thermal damage on multiple small commercial rooftop sites. It appears that the issue is crosstalk on the power line carrier signal. When the crosstalk occurs, the device does not receive the keep alive signal in the required 12 seconds and opens the output of the device. By opening the active MOSFET switch, this opening is actually done slowly so as not to create large surges/arcing, it creates heat in the MOSFET/ device. Additionally, a ceramic high power bleed down resistor bleeds down the module charge. Imagine the solar module as a big capacitor plus inductive energy in the cabling, these reactive components need to be bled down to below 30V within 30 seconds to keep that voltage below the NEC requirements. So when the unit performs the shut down, it has to disapate a little heat to open the circuit without arcing and from the stored charge in the reactive components of the module. If the TS4-A-F is getting crosstalk and turning on and off rapidly, then the unit starts to get hot and eventually melts the device. This is specific to the TS4-A-F and the dual unit because they are using PLC to communicate. Most of the other Tigo products are using a wireless communication, and not susceptible to the same type of interference. Tigo has lots of restrictions on the install to limit interference. I believe the issue is more prevalent when you have multiple inverters sending out non synchronous RSS signals and the homerun wiring running in same conduit. Which is typical if you have several string inverters all dropping the DC down to an AC/DC conduit trough. If the RSS communication gets jumbled to the Tigo unit under the module, it can turn the unit on and off. Exactly which unit will vary according to the noise and interference of the moment. I’ll interject here that I don’t have much experience with this product, nor the optimizer units, so I can’t speak to failures regarding the wireless based units nor do I have experience with utilizing the TS4-A-F in the proper Tigo recommended synchronous signal booster and isolated conduit runs. Sounds like David had things installed proper and still saw a multitude of failures. Mike Kocsmiersky E3 Consulting From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of David Buckner via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2025 12:03 PM To: william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches Cc: David Buckner Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F WARNING: This email originated from outside your organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the contents are safe. If you have ANY reason to doubt the authenticity of this message, contact IT before you open or click on anything. ________________________________ Evidence of failures and related issues * Overheating and fire: Multiple sources, including court documents, describe Tigo RSDs that showed signs of extreme overheating, melting, or being completely incinerated. * Legal action: A lawsuit was filed against Tigo Energy alleging their RSDs posed a clear threat of death, injury, and property damage, with plaintiffs shutting down their own systems as a result. Systemic problems: Some reports suggest that failures are not isolated, with multiple devices failing across different projects. * Allegations of a cover-up: The aforementioned lawsuit includes claims that Tigo was aware of risks and failed to adequately warn customers, suggesting a cover-up was in progress, notes Courthouse News. ________________________________ From: David Buckner > Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2025 11:32 AM To: william at millersolar.com >; RE-wrenches > Cc: Nick Lucchese > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F We have a multitude of these same issues with the TS40-A-F. We followed every new guideline from Tigo in order to avoid corrupted signals but still had issues. After a hot breezy day in NJ last year caused a Tigo failure to spread the roof caught on fire and caused millions in damage. Thankfully no one was injured. We spent the rest of 2024 pulling 6 MW's of Tigos off of other roofs for this customer. I have heard multiple stories of similar issues for many very experienced installers. David Buckner SES ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2025 12:11 PM To: william at millersolar.com >; RE-wrenches > Cc: Nick Lucchese > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F CAUTION: External Email. Appears that Zonna still has quite a few in stock. Feeling foolish to purchase more after having a TS4-2F fail into a pile of molten plastic and ruin a 405 watt bifacial module that I can no longer find a replacement for. What other options do we have for small DC coupled arrays on residential rooftops though? Not the most inspiring times to be installing rooftop PV. Hopefully I'll start having better luck with the single module units. Numerous times I've had units become bricked and not pass module voltage but this is the first time I've had this type of catastrophic failure that also inconveniently cost me the module. Nick On Mon, Nov 17, 2025 at 7:10 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Friends: I am having trouble locating these RSDs. Very few vendors appear to have these and I can’t get any to call back and verify they have them. I can’t get Tigo to return my calls. Does anyone know if these are discontinued? What are the rest of you doing for rapid shutdown? I don’t trust Alps: I have heard too many horror stories. It seems the form factor is too small to contain arc suppression measures. Somewhere I saw as an alternative the Tigo TS4-A-O. These are optimizers. I worry these will fight with the MPPT algorithm in the inverter or charge controller. There is also the TS4-A-S which has shutdown and monitoring. All input is welcome an appreciated. Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 16:03:35 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2025 13:03:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Other than replacing the individual TS4-A-F device has anyone gotten any additional compensation from Tigo? In my case due to the burnt up cell on the module, I now have a string of 5 modules that I cannot parallel with the others. For awhile my distributor still had inventory but now they seem to be long gone. I'd rather not punish myself going through Tigo's tech support if all it does is put $35 back into my inventory. They've sent replacements quickly before but this is another level. I doubt they'd compensate for a new module if one could be found let alone cover the expense of shipping a single module. It would be quite the bill to cover all the labor as well. I'm now in this odd work limbo being too scared to power down the strings in fear another one will become bricked or worse. At least Enphase is doing off grid now. Deserving of another consideration for sure. Nick On Thu, Nov 20, 2025 at 11:47 AM Kocsmiersky, Michael via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > To further David’s assessment of the Tigo TS4-A-F devices. I looked into > an issue about a year or two ago with failed Tigo units suffering thermal > damage on multiple small commercial rooftop sites. It appears that the > issue is crosstalk on the power line carrier signal. When the crosstalk > occurs, the device does not receive the keep alive signal in the required > 12 seconds and opens the output of the device. By opening the active > MOSFET switch, this opening is actually done slowly so as not to create > large surges/arcing, it creates heat in the MOSFET/ device. Additionally, > a ceramic high power bleed down resistor bleeds down the module charge. > Imagine the solar module as a big capacitor plus inductive energy in the > cabling, these reactive components need to be bled down to below 30V within > 30 seconds to keep that voltage below the NEC requirements. So when the > unit performs the shut down, it has to disapate a little heat to open the > circuit without arcing and from the stored charge in the reactive > components of the module. If the TS4-A-F is getting crosstalk and > turning on and off rapidly, then the unit starts to get hot and eventually > melts the device. This is specific to the TS4-A-F and the dual unit > because they are using PLC to communicate. Most of the other Tigo products > are using a wireless communication, and not susceptible to the same type of > interference. Tigo has lots of restrictions on the install to limit > interference. I believe the issue is more prevalent when you have multiple > inverters sending out non synchronous RSS signals and the homerun wiring > running in same conduit. Which is typical if you have several string > inverters all dropping the DC down to an AC/DC conduit trough. If the RSS > communication gets jumbled to the Tigo unit under the module, it can turn > the unit on and off. Exactly which unit will vary according to the noise > and interference of the moment. > > I’ll interject here that I don’t have much experience with this product, > nor the optimizer units, so I can’t speak to failures regarding the > wireless based units nor do I have experience with utilizing the TS4-A-F in > the proper Tigo recommended synchronous signal booster and isolated conduit > runs. Sounds like David had things installed proper and still saw a > multitude of failures. > > > > Mike Kocsmiersky > > E3 Consulting > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *David Buckner via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, November 20, 2025 12:03 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Cc:* David Buckner > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F > > > > *WARNING: **This email originated from outside your organization.* > Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and > know the contents are safe. > If you have *ANY* reason to doubt the authenticity of this message, > contact IT before you open or click on anything. > ------------------------------ > > *Evidence of failures and related issues* > > - *Overheating and fire:* Multiple sources, including court documents, > describe Tigo RSDs that showed signs of extreme overheating, melting, or > being completely incinerated. > - *Legal action:* A lawsuit was filed against Tigo Energy alleging > their RSDs posed a clear threat of death, injury, and property damage, with > plaintiffs shutting down their own systems as a result. > > *Systemic problems:* Some reports suggest that failures are not isolated, > with multiple devices failing across different projects. > > - *Allegations of a cover-up:* The aforementioned lawsuit includes > claims that Tigo was aware of risks and failed to adequately warn > customers, suggesting a cover-up was in progress, *notes Courthouse > News > * > . > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* David Buckner > *Sent:* Thursday, November 20, 2025 11:32 AM > *To:* william at millersolar.com ; RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Cc:* Nick Lucchese > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F > > > > We have a multitude of these same issues with the TS40-A-F. We followed > every new guideline from Tigo in order to avoid corrupted signals but still > had issues. After a hot breezy day in NJ last year caused a Tigo failure > to spread the roof caught on fire and caused millions in damage. > Thankfully no one was injured. We spent the rest of 2024 pulling 6 MW's of > Tigos off of other roofs for this customer. I have heard multiple stories > of similar issues for many very experienced installers. > > > > David Buckner > > SES > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 19, 2025 12:11 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com ; RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Cc:* Nick Lucchese > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F > > > > CAUTION: External Email. > > Appears that Zonna still has quite a few in stock. Feeling foolish to > purchase more after having a TS4-2F fail into a pile of molten plastic and > ruin a 405 watt bifacial module that I can no longer find a replacement > for. What other options do we have for small DC coupled arrays on > residential rooftops though? Not the most inspiring times to be installing > rooftop PV. Hopefully I'll start having better luck with the single module > units. Numerous times I've had units become bricked and not pass module > voltage but this is the first time I've had this type of catastrophic > failure that also inconveniently cost me the module. > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2025 at 7:10 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I am having trouble locating these RSDs. Very few vendors appear to have > these and I can’t get any to call back and verify they have them. I can’t > get Tigo to return my calls. Does anyone know if these are discontinued? > > > > What are the rest of you doing for rapid shutdown? I don’t trust Alps: I > have heard too many horror stories. It seems the form factor is too small > to contain arc suppression measures. > > > > Somewhere I saw as an alternative the Tigo TS4-A-O. These are > optimizers. I worry these will fight with the MPPT algorithm in the > inverter or charge controller. There is also the TS4-A-S which has > shutdown and monitoring. > > > > All input is welcome an appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Thu Nov 20 16:57:04 2025 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2025 21:57:04 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have not heard of any compensation coming from Tigo. Not sure of the specs on your module, but they will ask about it: * Frame Thickness: The device is designed to clip onto standard module frames. If the module frame is ≤35 mm (1.4 in.) thick, the TS4-A-2F is installed with its label facing the solar module. * Clearance: A minimum distance of 12.7 mm (0.5 in.) must be maintained between any portion of the TS4 unit and the module's back sheet (substrate) for adequate ventilation and air circulation. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2025 4:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Nick Lucchese Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F CAUTION: External Email. Other than replacing the individual TS4-A-F device has anyone gotten any additional compensation from Tigo? In my case due to the burnt up cell on the module, I now have a string of 5 modules that I cannot parallel with the others. For awhile my distributor still had inventory but now they seem to be long gone. I'd rather not punish myself going through Tigo's tech support if all it does is put $35 back into my inventory. They've sent replacements quickly before but this is another level. I doubt they'd compensate for a new module if one could be found let alone cover the expense of shipping a single module. It would be quite the bill to cover all the labor as well. I'm now in this odd work limbo being too scared to power down the strings in fear another one will become bricked or worse. At least Enphase is doing off grid now. Deserving of another consideration for sure. Nick On Thu, Nov 20, 2025 at 11:47 AM Kocsmiersky, Michael via RE-wrenches > wrote: To further David’s assessment of the Tigo TS4-A-F devices. I looked into an issue about a year or two ago with failed Tigo units suffering thermal damage on multiple small commercial rooftop sites. It appears that the issue is crosstalk on the power line carrier signal. When the crosstalk occurs, the device does not receive the keep alive signal in the required 12 seconds and opens the output of the device. By opening the active MOSFET switch, this opening is actually done slowly so as not to create large surges/arcing, it creates heat in the MOSFET/ device. Additionally, a ceramic high power bleed down resistor bleeds down the module charge. Imagine the solar module as a big capacitor plus inductive energy in the cabling, these reactive components need to be bled down to below 30V within 30 seconds to keep that voltage below the NEC requirements. So when the unit performs the shut down, it has to disapate a little heat to open the circuit without arcing and from the stored charge in the reactive components of the module. If the TS4-A-F is getting crosstalk and turning on and off rapidly, then the unit starts to get hot and eventually melts the device. This is specific to the TS4-A-F and the dual unit because they are using PLC to communicate. Most of the other Tigo products are using a wireless communication, and not susceptible to the same type of interference. Tigo has lots of restrictions on the install to limit interference. I believe the issue is more prevalent when you have multiple inverters sending out non synchronous RSS signals and the homerun wiring running in same conduit. Which is typical if you have several string inverters all dropping the DC down to an AC/DC conduit trough. If the RSS communication gets jumbled to the Tigo unit under the module, it can turn the unit on and off. Exactly which unit will vary according to the noise and interference of the moment. I’ll interject here that I don’t have much experience with this product, nor the optimizer units, so I can’t speak to failures regarding the wireless based units nor do I have experience with utilizing the TS4-A-F in the proper Tigo recommended synchronous signal booster and isolated conduit runs. Sounds like David had things installed proper and still saw a multitude of failures. Mike Kocsmiersky E3 Consulting From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of David Buckner via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2025 12:03 PM To: william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > Cc: David Buckner > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F WARNING: This email originated from outside your organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the contents are safe. If you have ANY reason to doubt the authenticity of this message, contact IT before you open or click on anything. ________________________________ Evidence of failures and related issues * Overheating and fire: Multiple sources, including court documents, describe Tigo RSDs that showed signs of extreme overheating, melting, or being completely incinerated. * Legal action: A lawsuit was filed against Tigo Energy alleging their RSDs posed a clear threat of death, injury, and property damage, with plaintiffs shutting down their own systems as a result. Systemic problems: Some reports suggest that failures are not isolated, with multiple devices failing across different projects. * Allegations of a cover-up: The aforementioned lawsuit includes claims that Tigo was aware of risks and failed to adequately warn customers, suggesting a cover-up was in progress, notes Courthouse News. ________________________________ From: David Buckner > Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2025 11:32 AM To: william at millersolar.com >; RE-wrenches > Cc: Nick Lucchese > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F We have a multitude of these same issues with the TS40-A-F. We followed every new guideline from Tigo in order to avoid corrupted signals but still had issues. After a hot breezy day in NJ last year caused a Tigo failure to spread the roof caught on fire and caused millions in damage. Thankfully no one was injured. We spent the rest of 2024 pulling 6 MW's of Tigos off of other roofs for this customer. I have heard multiple stories of similar issues for many very experienced installers. David Buckner SES ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2025 12:11 PM To: william at millersolar.com >; RE-wrenches > Cc: Nick Lucchese > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F CAUTION: External Email. Appears that Zonna still has quite a few in stock. Feeling foolish to purchase more after having a TS4-2F fail into a pile of molten plastic and ruin a 405 watt bifacial module that I can no longer find a replacement for. What other options do we have for small DC coupled arrays on residential rooftops though? Not the most inspiring times to be installing rooftop PV. Hopefully I'll start having better luck with the single module units. Numerous times I've had units become bricked and not pass module voltage but this is the first time I've had this type of catastrophic failure that also inconveniently cost me the module. Nick On Mon, Nov 17, 2025 at 7:10 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Friends: I am having trouble locating these RSDs. Very few vendors appear to have these and I can’t get any to call back and verify they have them. I can’t get Tigo to return my calls. Does anyone know if these are discontinued? What are the rest of you doing for rapid shutdown? I don’t trust Alps: I have heard too many horror stories. It seems the form factor is too small to contain arc suppression measures. Somewhere I saw as an alternative the Tigo TS4-A-O. These are optimizers. I worry these will fight with the MPPT algorithm in the inverter or charge controller. There is also the TS4-A-S which has shutdown and monitoring. All input is welcome an appreciated. Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 20 21:13:17 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2025 19:13:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Thu Nov 20 21:26:59 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2025 18:26:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We saw one APSMART fail. It was a dual-module unit. it failed In the closed position. At the inverter, the voltage we measured was 2 modules in series plus the RSD safety voltage for the rest of the string. On Thu, Nov 20, 2025 at 9:54 AM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Has anybody had any failures of APSmart RSD-S-PLC's? I asked this before > and got no responses. I have had no issues myself and they seem consistent > and straightforward. > > > > > On Thu, Nov 20, 2025, 9:06 AM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Evidence of failures and related issues >> >> - Overheating and fire: Multiple sources, including court documents, >> describe Tigo RSDs that showed signs of extreme overheating, melting, or >> being completely incinerated. >> - Legal action: A lawsuit was filed against Tigo Energy alleging >> their RSDs posed a clear threat of death, injury, and property damage, with >> plaintiffs shutting down their own systems as a result. >> >> Systemic problems: Some reports suggest that failures are not isolated, >> with multiple devices failing across different projects. >> >> - Allegations of a cover-up: The aforementioned lawsuit includes >> claims that Tigo was aware of risks and failed to adequately warn >> customers, suggesting a cover-up was in progress, *notes Courthouse >> News >> * >> . >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* David Buckner >> *Sent:* Thursday, November 20, 2025 11:32 AM >> *To:* william at millersolar.com ; RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Cc:* Nick Lucchese >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F >> >> We have a multitude of these same issues with the TS40-A-F. We followed >> every new guideline from Tigo in order to avoid corrupted signals but still >> had issues. After a hot breezy day in NJ last year caused a Tigo failure >> to spread the roof caught on fire and caused millions in damage. >> Thankfully no one was injured. We spent the rest of 2024 pulling 6 MW's of >> Tigos off of other roofs for this customer. I have heard multiple stories >> of similar issues for many very experienced installers. >> >> David Buckner >> SES >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 19, 2025 12:11 PM >> *To:* william at millersolar.com ; RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Cc:* Nick Lucchese >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo TS4-A-F >> >> CAUTION: External Email. >> Appears that Zonna still has quite a few in stock. Feeling foolish to >> purchase more after having a TS4-2F fail into a pile of molten plastic and >> ruin a 405 watt bifacial module that I can no longer find a replacement >> for. What other options do we have for small DC coupled arrays on >> residential rooftops though? Not the most inspiring times to be installing >> rooftop PV. Hopefully I'll start having better luck with the single module >> units. Numerous times I've had units become bricked and not pass module >> voltage but this is the first time I've had this type of catastrophic >> failure that also inconveniently cost me the module. >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 17, 2025 at 7:10 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I am having trouble locating these RSDs. Very few vendors appear to have >> these and I can’t get any to call back and verify they have them. I can’t >> get Tigo to return my calls. Does anyone know if these are discontinued? >> >> >> >> What are the rest of you doing for rapid shutdown? I don’t trust Alps: >> I have heard too many horror stories. It seems the form factor is too >> small to contain arc suppression measures. >> >> >> >> Somewhere I saw as an alternative the Tigo TS4-A-O. These are >> optimizers. I worry these will fight with the MPPT algorithm in the >> inverter or charge controller. There is also the TS4-A-S which has >> shutdown and monitoring. >> >> >> >> All input is welcome an appreciated. Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Nov 21 13:27:11 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 18:27:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: How to change a Outback Radian GS4048A to a GS8048A, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey all - I have to credit Amos at Zonna Energy who provided the following procedure for upgrading a Radian GS4048 to a Radian GS8048. If you want to change a GS4048A to a GS8048A, add second power module & you also need to change a setting in the inverter and change it to a GS8048A Go to ; Lock>Up>Installer> Enter installer Password 1732>Settings>Inverter>Model Select and spin wheel to select the correct model. Thank you Amos! _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Fri Nov 21 18:32:06 2025 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 15:32:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie vs Arc Fault Breaker? Message-ID: Fellow Wrenches, I have a system that we installed a few weeks ago that is driving us crazy with overload faults. It is a remote cabin with maybe a half dozen circuits being fed by a Little Rosie inverter. Every couple weeks the power system shuts down with the Little Rosie showing an overload for no apparent reason. Client resets the inverter and everything runs fine for a couple weeks or so. The system seems to have no trouble when the Arc Fault (a Siemens arc fault breaker in a 100-A Siemens panel) breaker is turned off. Any of you have similar issues with these breakers? It is weird that the breaker could actually be causing the inverter to trip off. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar From tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com Fri Nov 21 18:35:18 2025 From: tom.mccalmont at pairedpower.com (Tom McCalmont) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 15:35:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie vs Arc Fault Breaker? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37AFD416-9FB2-4178-9D0E-D7EE13724F0B@pairedpower.com> Maybe it’s a real arc-fault in the system somewhere, and the breaker is trying to tell you that. Tom McCalmont CEO, Paired Power pairedpower.com | LinkedIn Direct: (669) 877-2931 > On Nov 21, 2025, at 3:32 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Fellow Wrenches, > > I have a system that we installed a few weeks ago that is driving us crazy with overload faults. It is a remote cabin with maybe a half dozen circuits being fed by a Little Rosie inverter. Every couple weeks the power system shuts down with the Little Rosie showing an overload for no apparent reason. Client resets the inverter and everything runs fine for a couple weeks or so. The system seems to have no trouble when the Arc Fault (a Siemens arc fault breaker in a 100-A Siemens panel) breaker is turned off. Any of you have similar issues with these breakers? It is weird that the breaker could actually be causing the inverter to trip off. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Fri Nov 21 19:28:32 2025 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 16:28:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie vs Arc Fault Breaker? In-Reply-To: <37AFD416-9FB2-4178-9D0E-D7EE13724F0B@pairedpower.com> References: <37AFD416-9FB2-4178-9D0E-D7EE13724F0B@pairedpower.com> Message-ID: <7772fca8-4549-40c0-8003-4b4680027fda@coveoregon.com> It is the inverter that trips off not the breaker and nothing needs to be done to restore power except to reset the inverter. It isn't unusual for an inverter to trip off due to overload faster than a breaker responds. But I wouldn't expect the inverter to trip off due to an arc fault. The electrician has been out there twice looking for a problem with the wiring and found nothing. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 11/21/2025 3:35 PM, Tom McCalmont wrote: > Maybe it’s a real arc-fault in the system somewhere, and the breaker > is trying to tell you that. > > *Tom McCalmont > *CEO, Paired Power > pairedpower.com | LinkedIn > > Direct: (669) 877-2931 > > > >> On Nov 21, 2025, at 3:32 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Fellow Wrenches, >> >> I have a system that we installed a few weeks ago that is driving us >> crazy with overload faults. It is a remote cabin with maybe a half >> dozen circuits being fed by a Little Rosie inverter. Every couple >> weeks the power system shuts down with the Little Rosie showing an >> overload for no apparent reason. Client resets the inverter and >> everything runs fine for a couple weeks or so. The system seems to >> have no trouble when the Arc Fault (a Siemens arc fault breaker in a >> 100-A Siemens panel) breaker is turned off. Any of you have similar >> issues with these breakers? It is weird that the breaker could >> actually be causing the inverter to trip off. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Nov 21 20:25:05 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 17:25:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie vs Arc Fault Breaker? In-Reply-To: <7772fca8-4549-40c0-8003-4b4680027fda@coveoregon.com> References: <37AFD416-9FB2-4178-9D0E-D7EE13724F0B@pairedpower.com> <7772fca8-4549-40c0-8003-4b4680027fda@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: I’ve seen 2 devices that both have arc fault circuitry essentially clash and cause faults. I polished and tightened all ground wires - everything from the electrode to the small ground wires. That solved it. Whatever it is, I hope it’s an easy fix for you! David On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 4:28 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > It is the inverter that trips off not the breaker and nothing needs to be > done to restore power except to reset the inverter. It isn't unusual for an > inverter to trip off due to overload faster than a breaker responds. But I > wouldn't expect the inverter to trip off due to an arc fault. > > The electrician has been out there twice looking for a problem with the > wiring and found nothing. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 11/21/2025 3:35 PM, Tom McCalmont wrote: > > Maybe it’s a real arc-fault in the system somewhere, and the breaker is > trying to tell you that. > > > *Tom McCalmont *CEO, Paired Power > pairedpower.com | LinkedIn > > Direct: (669) 877-2931 > > > > On Nov 21, 2025, at 3:32 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > > Fellow Wrenches, > > I have a system that we installed a few weeks ago that is driving us crazy > with overload faults. It is a remote cabin with maybe a half dozen circuits > being fed by a Little Rosie inverter. Every couple weeks the power system > shuts down with the Little Rosie showing an overload for no apparent > reason. Client resets the inverter and everything runs fine for a couple > weeks or so. The system seems to have no trouble when the Arc Fault (a > Siemens arc fault breaker in a 100-A Siemens panel) breaker is turned off. > Any of you have similar issues with these breakers? It is weird that the > breaker could actually be causing the inverter to trip off. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Nov 22 13:27:43 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2025 10:27:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie vs Arc Fault Breaker? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4a07cc32741cf69b1e1b81a7d307c59f@sti.net> I did alot of warranty for SMA and fronius with arc fault breakers and their central inverters. Way out in the boonies where few would go fro service. It was always the Arc breaker. I do not know how Midnite Rosie is designed. Ask them? Good luck. I assume the Arc fault needs to be there? Might be a hard decision if the panels are on a roof to bypass. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-11-21 3:32 pm, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > Fellow Wrenches, > > I have a system that we installed a few weeks ago that is driving us > crazy with overload faults. It is a remote cabin with maybe a half > dozen circuits being fed by a Little Rosie inverter. Every couple weeks > the power system shuts down with the Little Rosie showing an overload > for no apparent reason. Client resets the inverter and everything runs > fine for a couple weeks or so. The system seems to have no trouble when > the Arc Fault (a Siemens arc fault breaker in a 100-A Siemens panel) > breaker is turned off. Any of you have similar issues with these > breakers? It is weird that the breaker could actually be causing the > inverter to trip off. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 14:22:32 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2025 11:22:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: How to change a Outback Radian GS4048A to a GS8048A, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Quickly becoming the best off grid distributor out there. Rivaling the early and many great AEE years (in my mind anyway). Every department of the business excels, super thankful they came into our sphere to fill the void. Nick Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches Nov 21, 2025, 10:28 AM (2 days ago) to re-wrenches-bounces, Dana Hey all – I have to credit *Amos at Zonna Energy *who provided the following procedure for upgrading a Radian GS4048 to a Radian GS8048. If you want to change a GS4048A to a GS8048A, add second power module & you also need to change a setting in the inverter and change it to a GS8048A Go to ; *Lock>Up>Installer> Enter installer Password 1732>Settings>Inverter>Model Select** and spin wheel *to select the correct model. Thank you Amos! _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 10:28 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey all – > > > > I have to credit *Amos at Zonna Energy *who provided the following > procedure for upgrading a Radian GS4048 to a Radian GS8048. > > > > If you want to change a GS4048A to a GS8048A, add second power module & > you also need to change a setting in the inverter and change it to a GS8048A > > Go to ; *Lock>Up>Installer> Enter installer Password > 1732>Settings>Inverter>Model Select** and spin wheel *to select the > correct model. > > > > Thank you Amos! > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sue at midnitesolar.com Mon Nov 24 08:07:54 2025 From: Sue at midnitesolar.com (Sue Stankevitz) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2025 13:07:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie vs Arc Fault Breaker? In-Reply-To: <7772fca8-4549-40c0-8003-4b4680027fda@coveoregon.com> References: <37AFD416-9FB2-4178-9D0E-D7EE13724F0B@pairedpower.com> <7772fca8-4549-40c0-8003-4b4680027fda@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Hi Kent, This is the first we have heard of an issue of this nature but if you can please provide the model of breaker and share what loads are connected to that circuit with Ryan at midnitesolar.com we would like to try to recreate the issue and determine if it is something on our end that needs to be addressed. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DC5D19.6EB280F0] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kent via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 7:29 PM To: Tom McCalmont ; RE-wrenches Cc: Kent Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie vs Arc Fault Breaker? It is the inverter that trips off not the breaker and nothing needs to be done to restore power except to reset the inverter. It isn't unusual for an inverter to trip off due to overload faster than a breaker responds. But I wouldn't expect the inverter to trip off due to an arc fault. The electrician has been out there twice looking for a problem with the wiring and found nothing. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 11/21/2025 3:35 PM, Tom McCalmont wrote: Maybe it’s a real arc-fault in the system somewhere, and the breaker is trying to tell you that. Tom McCalmont CEO, Paired Power pairedpower.com | LinkedIn Direct: (669) 877-2931 On Nov 21, 2025, at 3:32 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: Fellow Wrenches, I have a system that we installed a few weeks ago that is driving us crazy with overload faults. It is a remote cabin with maybe a half dozen circuits being fed by a Little Rosie inverter. Every couple weeks the power system shuts down with the Little Rosie showing an overload for no apparent reason. Client resets the inverter and everything runs fine for a couple weeks or so. The system seems to have no trouble when the Arc Fault (a Siemens arc fault breaker in a 100-A Siemens panel) breaker is turned off. Any of you have similar issues with these breakers? It is weird that the breaker could actually be causing the inverter to trip off. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Mon Nov 24 17:13:16 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2025 14:13:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie vs Arc Fault Breaker? Message-ID: Is it possible that it has nothing to do with it being an arc fault breaker? Just a short in the AC wiring on that circuit somewhere that is tripping the inverter off line, and it happens that that circuit is on an arc fault breaker. I know I've had issues with the SW inverters especially responding so fast to shorts anywhere on the AC wiring that even a bad power strip takes the inverter off line without tripping any breakers. Usually you can see a short if it's that fast of an overload though. Also, have you tried replacing the arc fault breaker? It might be a bad breaker perhaps that has a short? Zeke From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kent via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 7:29 PM To: Tom McCalmont ; RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Cc: Kent Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Little Rosie vs Arc Fault Breaker? It is the inverter that trips off not the breaker and nothing needs to be done to restore power except to reset the inverter. It isn't unusual for an inverter to trip off due to overload faster than a breaker responds. But I wouldn't expect the inverter to trip off due to an arc fault. The electrician has been out there twice looking for a problem with the wiring and found nothing. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar -- Zeke Yewdall PV Engineer NABCEP #031508-89 zeke at darkforestsolar.com 303-523-3592 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 10:31:40 2025 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 07:31:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Lithium Batteries on Sunny Island System Message-ID: Hello All, I have a client that just got some lithium batteries and they have a sunny island inverter with a Midnight Charge controller. I've heard and experienced integrating Lithium batteries into a Sunny Island inverter is challenging and could create problems. Has anyone had experience with these batteries or installing lithium batteries with these components? Below are some details about the system so far..... System: 48v NEW BATTERY: China Aviation Lithium Battery CO. model: CA180F nominal voltage: 3.2v rated capacity: 180Ah rated energy: 576Wh Inverter: Sunny Island model: SI 4548-US-10 CHARGE CONTROLLER: Midnight Solar Classic 150 SOLAR ARRAY: N/A....it was dark when I was at the site so I couldn't take any notes -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 11:04:35 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 09:04:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Lithium Batteries on Sunny Island System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7CA0A9FC-2604-4E05-8454-CD6E449FF6F4@gmail.com> HI Jim, If youre not doing AC coupling and AGS then shouldn’t be a problem. > On Nov 25, 2025, at 8:31 AM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello All, > I have a client that just got some lithium batteries and they have a sunny island inverter with a Midnight Charge controller. I've heard and experienced integrating Lithium batteries into a Sunny Island inverter is challenging and could create problems. Has anyone had experience with these batteries or installing lithium batteries with these components? Below are some details about the system so far..... > > System: > 48v > > NEW BATTERY: > China Aviation Lithium Battery CO. > model: CA180F > nominal voltage: 3.2v > rated capacity: 180Ah > rated energy: 576Wh > > Inverter: > Sunny Island > model: SI 4548-US-10 > > CHARGE CONTROLLER: > Midnight Solar Classic 150 > > SOLAR ARRAY: > N/A....it was dark when I was at the site so I couldn't take any notes > > > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 11:17:58 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 09:17:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Lithium Batteries on Sunny Island System In-Reply-To: <7CA0A9FC-2604-4E05-8454-CD6E449FF6F4@gmail.com> References: <7CA0A9FC-2604-4E05-8454-CD6E449FF6F4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, The big issue is that the Sunny Island will have no idea what the state of charge is. The voltage curve is flat and the battery algorithm will have large errors most of the time. Otherwise, it will be OK but starting a generator is best done by some other device that can trigger on voltage (Midnite). Good Luck! On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 9:06 AM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI Jim, > > If youre not doing AC coupling and AGS then shouldn’t be a problem. > > > > > On Nov 25, 2025, at 8:31 AM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > Hello All, > > I have a client that just got some lithium batteries and they have > a sunny island inverter with a Midnight Charge controller. I've heard and > experienced integrating Lithium batteries into a Sunny Island inverter is > challenging and could create problems. Has anyone had experience with > these batteries or installing lithium batteries with these components? > Below are some details about the system so far..... > > > > System: > > 48v > > > > NEW BATTERY: > > China Aviation Lithium Battery CO. > > model: CA180F > > nominal voltage: 3.2v > > rated capacity: 180Ah > > rated energy: 576Wh > > > > Inverter: > > Sunny Island > > model: SI 4548-US-10 > > > > CHARGE CONTROLLER: > > Midnight Solar Classic 150 > > > > SOLAR ARRAY: > > N/A....it was dark when I was at the site so I couldn't take any notes > > > > > > > > -- > > Jim with Gowdy Electric > > Cambria, Ca 93428 > > business 805 927 2630 > > cell 805 975 5279 > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Nov 25 12:40:34 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 09:40:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Lithium Batteries on Sunny Island System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jim: I haven’t tried lithium batteries with a traditional charge controller yet. All of the equipment you list was designed for lead acid. The narrower voltage range of the lithium may confuse the charge controller. Same with the AGS triggering. I know if you call SMA for tech support they may hang up on you when you tell them there are lithium batteries. It may work right away or you may spend a lot of time making it kind of work. I hope you can make the client understand this is an experiment. Tech support from the battery manufacturer may not be great being a Chinese company. These days I pair lithium only with inverters designed for them. Good luck. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:33 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello All, > I have a client that just got some lithium batteries and they have a > sunny island inverter with a Midnight Charge controller. I've heard and > experienced integrating Lithium batteries into a Sunny Island inverter is > challenging and could create problems. Has anyone had experience with > these batteries or installing lithium batteries with these components? > Below are some details about the system so far..... > > System: > 48v > > NEW BATTERY: > China Aviation Lithium Battery CO. > model: CA180F > nominal voltage: 3.2v > rated capacity: 180Ah > rated energy: 576Wh > > Inverter: > Sunny Island > model: SI 4548-US-10 > > CHARGE CONTROLLER: > Midnight Solar Classic 150 > > SOLAR ARRAY: > N/A....it was dark when I was at the site so I couldn't take any notes > > > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 14:58:49 2025 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 14:58:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Battery Box Heating Message-ID: <66BC7A68-8E2D-4C15-8A68-E8B1376B565D@gmail.com> Hello all, I’ve been reading past posts regarding Battery Box Heating & am trying to find a simple way to heat an OSB insulated box for various LFP type batteries. One Battery Company’s tech support said he uses (at his own home) a 110vac incandescent bulb plugged in to a thermostat (inexpensive) that lets him heat between 32 & 50 degrees F. I had somebody suggest the same thing with some Christmas lights. The box & inverter & C.C. are in an un- heated garage on the Canadian border of NY. ( It can, & does get pretty cold up here.) Any suggestions? It’s Off-Grid & the owners want their Starlink & Security Cameras to be on year round. Thanks ahead of time! And, Happy Turkey Day! Amanda Potter Energy Storage Systems NABCEP PVIP Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC (315) 212-2114 From steve at surrette.com Tue Nov 25 15:05:45 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 12:05:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Battery Box Heating In-Reply-To: <66BC7A68-8E2D-4C15-8A68-E8B1376B565D@gmail.com> References: <66BC7A68-8E2D-4C15-8A68-E8B1376B565D@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have heard of success from some using concrete curing blankets... Something like this.. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Powerblanket-Insulated-Heated-Concrete-Curing-Blanket-3-ft-x-4-ft-Fixed-Temp-100-F-Cures-Concrete-2-8x-Faster-in-Cold-Weather-MD0304/305262566?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&srsltid=AfmBOooWsz9ydnFCQqGmhiwcQwnsiBRsvA0cq7cs26sf8Ktx1P9fc9dXPZM *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 11:59 AM Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello all, > I’ve been reading past posts regarding Battery Box Heating & am trying to > find a simple way to heat an OSB insulated box for various LFP type > batteries. > > One Battery Company’s tech support said he uses (at his own home) a 110vac > incandescent bulb plugged in to a thermostat (inexpensive) that lets him > heat between 32 & 50 degrees F. > > I had somebody suggest the same thing with some Christmas lights. > The box & inverter & C.C. are in an un- heated garage on the Canadian > border of NY. ( It can, & does get pretty cold up here.) > > Any suggestions? > > It’s Off-Grid & the owners want their Starlink & Security Cameras to be on > year round. > > Thanks ahead of time! > And, Happy Turkey Day! > > Amanda Potter > Energy Storage Systems > NABCEP PVIP > Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC > (315) 212-2114 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 15:52:33 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 13:52:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Battery Box Heating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Nov 25 16:10:16 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 21:10:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Battery Box Heating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have used digital reptile heaters be fore heated batteries came out. Works great about 30 watts each I used one in between each battery pack _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Jay via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LFP Battery Box Heating Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 20:52:33 +0000 Size: 27225 URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 16:13:35 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 13:13:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Battery Box Heating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Low wattage seedling heat mats work well too. On Tue, Nov 25, 2025, 1:10 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have used digital reptile heaters be fore heated batteries came out. > Works great about 30 watts each > > I used one in between each battery pack > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Jay via RE-wrenches > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jay > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 20:52:33 +0000 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LFP Battery Box Heating > Terrarium heaters > They make flat heaters in all sorts of sizes that you put below the > battery. > I use a thermostat to control it. > > Inexpensive and works > > Jay > > On Nov 25, 2025, at 1:06 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I have heard of success from some using concrete curing blankets... > > Something like this.. > > > https://www.homedepot.com/p/Powerblanket-Insulated-Heated-Concrete-Curing-Blanket-3-ft-x-4-ft-Fixed-Temp-100-F-Cures-Concrete-2-8x-Faster-in-Cold-Weather-MD0304/305262566?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&srsltid=AfmBOooWsz9ydnFCQqGmhiwcQwnsiBRsvA0cq7cs26sf8Ktx1P9fc9dXPZM > > > *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* > *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 > *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 11:59 AM Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello all, >> I’ve been reading past posts regarding Battery Box Heating & am trying to >> find a simple way to heat an OSB insulated box for various LFP type >> batteries. >> >> One Battery Company’s tech support said he uses (at his own home) a >> 110vac incandescent bulb plugged in to a thermostat (inexpensive) that lets >> him heat between 32 & 50 degrees F. >> >> I had somebody suggest the same thing with some Christmas lights. >> The box & inverter & C.C. are in an un- heated garage on the Canadian >> border of NY. ( It can, & does get pretty cold up here.) >> >> Any suggestions? >> >> It’s Off-Grid & the owners want their Starlink & Security Cameras to be >> on year round. >> >> Thanks ahead of time! >> And, Happy Turkey Day! >> >> Amanda Potter >> Energy Storage Systems >> NABCEP PVIP >> Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC >> (315) 212-2114 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Tue Nov 25 16:59:29 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 13:59:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Lithium Batteries on Sunny Island System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have done many systems with the Midnite charge controllers (and outback and victron and others) with lithium batteries. With the right voltage settings they can work quite fine. The Sunny Island inverter I am not sure... it should be possible to set all of the voltage settings to work with them, but I have never tried it with them. I have heard of people doing this though -- one of the first lithium battery systems written up in Home Power was a Sunny Island system with Discover lithium batteries if I recall. Lithium batteries do have a much flatter voltage curve than lead acid, so guessing SOC based on voltage is even more difficult than with lead acid batteries. Some sort of AH counting SOC meter is very helpful if doing an open loop lithium battery without BMS communications. What would concern me from the scenario you have presented is that the specs are for a lithium battery cell... not a lithium battery with a BMS. I have built many lithium batteries for my own use out of cells by adding my own BMS, but that's a whole nother level of fabrication compared to just installing a complete battery. And will most certainly not be UL9540 listed. I would not install a non UL9540 listed battery for a customer because of the liability. Zeke On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 1:05 PM > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 07:31:40 -0800 > From: Jim Gowdy > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Lithium Batteries on Sunny Island System > Message-ID: > < > CAC+tiP7COiKi7BLMibm1L-Fm8pnBnirnMbFqSFLwJaQPsx70-g at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hello All, > I have a client that just got some lithium batteries and they have a > sunny island inverter with a Midnight Charge controller. I've heard and > experienced integrating Lithium batteries into a Sunny Island inverter is > challenging and could create problems. Has anyone had experience with > these batteries or installing lithium batteries with these components? > Below are some details about the system so far..... > > System: > 48v > > NEW BATTERY: > China Aviation Lithium Battery CO. > model: CA180F > nominal voltage: 3.2v > rated capacity: 180Ah > rated energy: 576Wh > > Inverter: > Sunny Island > model: SI 4548-US-10 > > CHARGE CONTROLLER: > Midnight Solar Classic 150 > > SOLAR ARRAY: > N/A....it was dark when I was at the site so I couldn't take any notes > > > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 21:10:43 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 18:10:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Lithium Batteries on Sunny Island System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William, Wrenches, I have done several over the past couple years, the only issue I had, I needed to build a resister that mimiced the BTSas 75 degrees, because the SI.s will brop and raise max voltage according to the temp, this must be changed to prevent this as the battery BMS will or at least should do that anyway. Now I dont know about your batteries and I would suggest that you look at the battery cables sizes, I looked at a system that had these so called hight output batteries with # 8 plug in cables, worked very poorly just a FYI Fun times On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 9:42 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jim: > > I haven’t tried lithium batteries with a traditional charge controller > yet. All of the equipment you list was designed for lead acid. The > narrower voltage range of the lithium may confuse the charge controller. > Same with the AGS triggering. > > I know if you call SMA for tech support they may hang up on you when you > tell them there are lithium batteries. > > It may work right away or you may spend a lot of time making it kind of > work. I hope you can make the client understand this is an experiment. Tech > support from the battery manufacturer may not be great being a Chinese > company. > > These days I pair lithium only with inverters designed for them. > > Good luck. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:33 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello All, >> I have a client that just got some lithium batteries and they have a >> sunny island inverter with a Midnight Charge controller. I've heard and >> experienced integrating Lithium batteries into a Sunny Island inverter is >> challenging and could create problems. Has anyone had experience with >> these batteries or installing lithium batteries with these components? >> Below are some details about the system so far..... >> >> System: >> 48v >> >> NEW BATTERY: >> China Aviation Lithium Battery CO. >> model: CA180F >> nominal voltage: 3.2v >> rated capacity: 180Ah >> rated energy: 576Wh >> >> Inverter: >> Sunny Island >> model: SI 4548-US-10 >> >> CHARGE CONTROLLER: >> Midnight Solar Classic 150 >> >> SOLAR ARRAY: >> N/A....it was dark when I was at the site so I couldn't take any notes >> >> >> >> -- >> Jim with Gowdy Electric >> Cambria, Ca 93428 >> business 805 927 2630 >> cell 805 975 5279 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Nov 25 22:05:02 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 19:05:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Lithium Batteries on Sunny Island System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just left the temp sensor dangling in mid air. This way the Sunny Island at least could react to ambient temperature. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 6:10 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > William, Wrenches, > I have done several over the past couple years, the only issue I had, I > needed to build a resister that mimiced the BTSas 75 degrees, because the > SI.s will brop and raise max voltage according to the temp, this must be > changed to prevent this as the battery BMS will or at least should do that > anyway. Now I dont know about your batteries and I would suggest that you > look at the battery cables sizes, I looked at a system that had these so > called hight output batteries with # 8 plug in cables, worked very poorly > just a FYI > Fun times > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 9:42 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jim: >> >> I haven’t tried lithium batteries with a traditional charge controller >> yet. All of the equipment you list was designed for lead acid. The >> narrower voltage range of the lithium may confuse the charge controller. >> Same with the AGS triggering. >> >> I know if you call SMA for tech support they may hang up on you when you >> tell them there are lithium batteries. >> >> It may work right away or you may spend a lot of time making it kind of >> work. I hope you can make the client understand this is an experiment. Tech >> support from the battery manufacturer may not be great being a Chinese >> company. >> >> These days I pair lithium only with inverters designed for them. >> >> Good luck. >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:33 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello All, >>> I have a client that just got some lithium batteries and they have >>> a sunny island inverter with a Midnight Charge controller. I've heard and >>> experienced integrating Lithium batteries into a Sunny Island inverter is >>> challenging and could create problems. Has anyone had experience with >>> these batteries or installing lithium batteries with these components? >>> Below are some details about the system so far..... >>> >>> System: >>> 48v >>> >>> NEW BATTERY: >>> China Aviation Lithium Battery CO. >>> model: CA180F >>> nominal voltage: 3.2v >>> rated capacity: 180Ah >>> rated energy: 576Wh >>> >>> Inverter: >>> Sunny Island >>> model: SI 4548-US-10 >>> >>> CHARGE CONTROLLER: >>> Midnight Solar Classic 150 >>> >>> SOLAR ARRAY: >>> N/A....it was dark when I was at the site so I couldn't take any notes >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Jim with Gowdy Electric >>> Cambria, Ca 93428 >>> business 805 927 2630 >>> cell 805 975 5279 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 23:33:25 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 20:33:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Lithium Batteries on Sunny Island System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William, Wrenches Letting the sensor read whatever it is in will potentually under-charge the batteries due to temps above 75, Yes it can work but the BMS will do what it needs to do for temp and dropping the volts down can hinder the BMS from fully charging the batteries. Now you also don't want to compensate by bumping up the volts as this is hard on the BMS and I would guess that a BMS failure due to over volts would not be warranted as the BMS saves Peak volts. Fun Times On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:05 PM William Miller wrote: > I just left the temp sensor dangling in mid air. This way the Sunny Island > at least could react to ambient temperature. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 6:10 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> William, Wrenches, >> I have done several over the past couple years, the only issue I had, I >> needed to build a resister that mimiced the BTSas 75 degrees, because the >> SI.s will brop and raise max voltage according to the temp, this must be >> changed to prevent this as the battery BMS will or at least should do that >> anyway. Now I dont know about your batteries and I would suggest that you >> look at the battery cables sizes, I looked at a system that had these so >> called hight output batteries with # 8 plug in cables, worked very poorly >> just a FYI >> Fun times >> >> On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 9:42 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Jim: >>> >>> I haven’t tried lithium batteries with a traditional charge controller >>> yet. All of the equipment you list was designed for lead acid. The >>> narrower voltage range of the lithium may confuse the charge controller. >>> Same with the AGS triggering. >>> >>> I know if you call SMA for tech support they may hang up on you when you >>> tell them there are lithium batteries. >>> >>> It may work right away or you may spend a lot of time making it kind of >>> work. I hope you can make the client understand this is an experiment. Tech >>> support from the battery manufacturer may not be great being a Chinese >>> company. >>> >>> These days I pair lithium only with inverters designed for them. >>> >>> Good luck. >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:33 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello All, >>>> I have a client that just got some lithium batteries and they have >>>> a sunny island inverter with a Midnight Charge controller. I've heard and >>>> experienced integrating Lithium batteries into a Sunny Island inverter is >>>> challenging and could create problems. Has anyone had experience with >>>> these batteries or installing lithium batteries with these components? >>>> Below are some details about the system so far..... >>>> >>>> System: >>>> 48v >>>> >>>> NEW BATTERY: >>>> China Aviation Lithium Battery CO. >>>> model: CA180F >>>> nominal voltage: 3.2v >>>> rated capacity: 180Ah >>>> rated energy: 576Wh >>>> >>>> Inverter: >>>> Sunny Island >>>> model: SI 4548-US-10 >>>> >>>> CHARGE CONTROLLER: >>>> Midnight Solar Classic 150 >>>> >>>> SOLAR ARRAY: >>>> N/A....it was dark when I was at the site so I couldn't take any notes >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jim with Gowdy Electric >>>> Cambria, Ca 93428 >>>> business 805 927 2630 >>>> cell 805 975 5279 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Nov 25 23:56:19 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 20:56:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Battery Box Heating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, On battery heating, I hear a bunch of great ideas, incondecent lamp, simple thats untill it burns out, same with christmas lights, loose one and your toast, reptile enclosure blanket heater again great but on 24/7 for months on end what is the failure rate there? I have seen many outlets fail due to block heaters running in the nwinter cooking the outlet, socket and wiring in the outlet box. I have used Kohler Generator battery heaters and yes they fail too. I tryed a ceramic direct plug in heater, maybe 30 days and it was done. If this is for security then redundency and CC/inverter telemitry for monitoring temps is a must, we need an idea that is it Mars Mission Ready, Yes they are great and inovative ideas. Brain stormen is Fun times On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 1:14 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Low wattage seedling heat mats work well too. > > > > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2025, 1:10 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I have used digital reptile heaters be fore heated batteries came out. >> Works great about 30 watts each >> >> I used one in between each battery pack >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> >> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >> >> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >> >> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >> >> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Jay via RE-wrenches >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: Jay >> Bcc: >> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 20:52:33 +0000 >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LFP Battery Box Heating >> Terrarium heaters >> They make flat heaters in all sorts of sizes that you put below the >> battery. >> I use a thermostat to control it. >> >> Inexpensive and works >> >> Jay >> >> On Nov 25, 2025, at 1:06 PM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> I have heard of success from some using concrete curing blankets... >> >> Something like this.. >> >> >> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Powerblanket-Insulated-Heated-Concrete-Curing-Blanket-3-ft-x-4-ft-Fixed-Temp-100-F-Cures-Concrete-2-8x-Faster-in-Cold-Weather-MD0304/305262566?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&srsltid=AfmBOooWsz9ydnFCQqGmhiwcQwnsiBRsvA0cq7cs26sf8Ktx1P9fc9dXPZM >> >> >> *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* >> *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 >> *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com >> ------------------------------ >> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for >> the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged >> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the >> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If >> you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or >> destroy this message and all copies. >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 11:59 AM Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello all, >>> I’ve been reading past posts regarding Battery Box Heating & am trying >>> to find a simple way to heat an OSB insulated box for various LFP type >>> batteries. >>> >>> One Battery Company’s tech support said he uses (at his own home) a >>> 110vac incandescent bulb plugged in to a thermostat (inexpensive) that lets >>> him heat between 32 & 50 degrees F. >>> >>> I had somebody suggest the same thing with some Christmas lights. >>> The box & inverter & C.C. are in an un- heated garage on the Canadian >>> border of NY. ( It can, & does get pretty cold up here.) >>> >>> Any suggestions? >>> >>> It’s Off-Grid & the owners want their Starlink & Security Cameras to be >>> on year round. >>> >>> Thanks ahead of time! >>> And, Happy Turkey Day! >>> >>> Amanda Potter >>> Energy Storage Systems >>> NABCEP PVIP >>> Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC >>> (315) 212-2114 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 00:51:11 2025 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2025 21:51:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Lithium Batteries on Sunny Island System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the information. I emailed both SMA and Midnight and we'll see what they say. On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:08 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I just left the temp sensor dangling in mid air. This way the Sunny Island > at least could react to ambient temperature. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 6:10 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> William, Wrenches, >> I have done several over the past couple years, the only issue I had, I >> needed to build a resister that mimiced the BTSas 75 degrees, because the >> SI.s will brop and raise max voltage according to the temp, this must be >> changed to prevent this as the battery BMS will or at least should do that >> anyway. Now I dont know about your batteries and I would suggest that you >> look at the battery cables sizes, I looked at a system that had these so >> called hight output batteries with # 8 plug in cables, worked very poorly >> just a FYI >> Fun times >> >> On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 9:42 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Jim: >>> >>> I haven’t tried lithium batteries with a traditional charge controller >>> yet. All of the equipment you list was designed for lead acid. The >>> narrower voltage range of the lithium may confuse the charge controller. >>> Same with the AGS triggering. >>> >>> I know if you call SMA for tech support they may hang up on you when you >>> tell them there are lithium batteries. >>> >>> It may work right away or you may spend a lot of time making it kind of >>> work. I hope you can make the client understand this is an experiment. Tech >>> support from the battery manufacturer may not be great being a Chinese >>> company. >>> >>> These days I pair lithium only with inverters designed for them. >>> >>> Good luck. >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:33 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello All, >>>> I have a client that just got some lithium batteries and they have >>>> a sunny island inverter with a Midnight Charge controller. I've heard and >>>> experienced integrating Lithium batteries into a Sunny Island inverter is >>>> challenging and could create problems. Has anyone had experience with >>>> these batteries or installing lithium batteries with these components? >>>> Below are some details about the system so far..... >>>> >>>> System: >>>> 48v >>>> >>>> NEW BATTERY: >>>> China Aviation Lithium Battery CO. >>>> model: CA180F >>>> nominal voltage: 3.2v >>>> rated capacity: 180Ah >>>> rated energy: 576Wh >>>> >>>> Inverter: >>>> Sunny Island >>>> model: SI 4548-US-10 >>>> >>>> CHARGE CONTROLLER: >>>> Midnight Solar Classic 150 >>>> >>>> SOLAR ARRAY: >>>> N/A....it was dark when I was at the site so I couldn't take any notes >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jim with Gowdy Electric >>>> Cambria, Ca 93428 >>>> business 805 927 2630 >>>> cell 805 975 5279 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sue at midnitesolar.com Wed Nov 26 08:26:10 2025 From: Sue at midnitesolar.com (Sue Stankevitz) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2025 13:26:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Lithium Batteries on Sunny Island System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Key points of using the Classic for charging lithium are to unplug the BTS and turn off temp comp, set equalize to 1/10v higher than absorb(in case someone button pushes) and disable equalize. We have thousands in the field successfully charging lithium batteries. A WBJR and shunt can be added to provide accurate SOC. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DC5EAE.5140BD70] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2025 12:51 AM To: william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches Cc: Jim Gowdy Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] New Lithium Batteries on Sunny Island System Thanks for the information. I emailed both SMA and Midnight and we'll see what they say. On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:08 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: I just left the temp sensor dangling in mid air. This way the Sunny Island at least could react to ambient temperature. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 6:10 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: William, Wrenches, I have done several over the past couple years, the only issue I had, I needed to build a resister that mimiced the BTSas 75 degrees, because the SI.s will brop and raise max voltage according to the temp, this must be changed to prevent this as the battery BMS will or at least should do that anyway. Now I dont know about your batteries and I would suggest that you look at the battery cables sizes, I looked at a system that had these so called hight output batteries with # 8 plug in cables, worked very poorly just a FYI Fun times On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 9:42 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Jim: I haven’t tried lithium batteries with a traditional charge controller yet. All of the equipment you list was designed for lead acid. The narrower voltage range of the lithium may confuse the charge controller. Same with the AGS triggering. I know if you call SMA for tech support they may hang up on you when you tell them there are lithium batteries. It may work right away or you may spend a lot of time making it kind of work. I hope you can make the client understand this is an experiment. Tech support from the battery manufacturer may not be great being a Chinese company. These days I pair lithium only with inverters designed for them. Good luck. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:33 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hello All, I have a client that just got some lithium batteries and they have a sunny island inverter with a Midnight Charge controller. I've heard and experienced integrating Lithium batteries into a Sunny Island inverter is challenging and could create problems. Has anyone had experience with these batteries or installing lithium batteries with these components? Below are some details about the system so far..... System: 48v NEW BATTERY: China Aviation Lithium Battery CO. model: CA180F nominal voltage: 3.2v rated capacity: 180Ah rated energy: 576Wh Inverter: Sunny Island model: SI 4548-US-10 CHARGE CONTROLLER: Midnight Solar Classic 150 SOLAR ARRAY: N/A....it was dark when I was at the site so I couldn't take any notes -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 08:41:39 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2025 06:41:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Lithium Batteries on Sunny Island System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 09:17:08 2025 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2025 06:17:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Lithium Batteries on Sunny Island System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did forget to mention that there is a generator on site that would charge through the sunny island inverter. I was there late in the day checking the job and haven't taken many notes on that. Only thing I'm pretty sure of is that there aren't AGS features yet, but I would need to see how to incorporate that. I've witnessed problems on another system where the sunny islands did not like it when the Lithium Batteries got up to almost full charge charging off the generator and threw an error on the inverters. On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 5:43 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thx Sue > > I have dozens of open loop lithium batteries out here with classic > controllers working perfectly configured like you say. > > Jay > > > > On Nov 26, 2025, at 6:26 AM, Sue Stankevitz via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Key points of using the Classic for charging lithium are to unplug the BTS > and turn off temp comp, set equalize to 1/10v higher than absorb(in case > someone button pushes) and disable equalize. We have thousands in the field > successfully charging lithium batteries. A WBJR and shunt can be added to > provide accurate SOC. > > > > Sue Stankevitz > MidNite Solar, Inc. > (360) 403-7207 (XT122) > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 26, 2025 12:51 AM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Cc:* Jim Gowdy > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] New Lithium Batteries on Sunny Island System > > > > Thanks for the information. I emailed both SMA and Midnight and we'll see > what they say. > > > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:08 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I just left the temp sensor dangling in mid air. This way the Sunny Island > at least could react to ambient temperature. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 6:10 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > William, Wrenches, > > I have done several over the past couple years, the only issue I had, I > needed to build a resister that mimiced the BTSas 75 degrees, because the > SI.s will brop and raise max voltage according to the temp, this must be > changed to prevent this as the battery BMS will or at least should do that > anyway. Now I dont know about your batteries and I would suggest that you > look at the battery cables sizes, I looked at a system that had these so > called hight output batteries with # 8 plug in cables, worked very poorly > just a FYI > > Fun times > > > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 9:42 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jim: > > > > I haven’t tried lithium batteries with a traditional charge controller > yet. All of the equipment you list was designed for lead acid. The > narrower voltage range of the lithium may confuse the charge controller. > Same with the AGS triggering. > > > > I know if you call SMA for tech support they may hang up on you when you > tell them there are lithium batteries. > > > > It may work right away or you may spend a lot of time making it kind of > work. I hope you can make the client understand this is an experiment. Tech > support from the battery manufacturer may not be great being a Chinese > company. > > > > These days I pair lithium only with inverters designed for them. > > > > Good luck. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:33 AM Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hello All, > > I have a client that just got some lithium batteries and they have a > sunny island inverter with a Midnight Charge controller. I've heard and > experienced integrating Lithium batteries into a Sunny Island inverter is > challenging and could create problems. Has anyone had experience with > these batteries or installing lithium batteries with these components? > Below are some details about the system so far..... > > > > System: > > 48v > > > > NEW BATTERY: > > China Aviation Lithium Battery CO. > > model: CA180F > > nominal voltage: 3.2v > > rated capacity: 180Ah > > rated energy: 576Wh > > > > Inverter: > > Sunny Island > > model: SI 4548-US-10 > > > > CHARGE CONTROLLER: > > Midnight Solar Classic 150 > > > > SOLAR ARRAY: > > N/A....it was dark when I was at the site so I couldn't take any notes > > > > > > > > -- > > Jim with Gowdy Electric > > Cambria, Ca 93428 > > business 805 927 2630 > > cell 805 975 5279 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > Jim with Gowdy Electric > > Cambria, Ca 93428 > > business 805 927 2630 > > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 09:26:55 2025 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2025 07:26:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LFP Battery Box Heating In-Reply-To: <66BC7A68-8E2D-4C15-8A68-E8B1376B565D@gmail.com> References: <66BC7A68-8E2D-4C15-8A68-E8B1376B565D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Amanda, Lots of good ideas from the list. I have successfully employed an LFP strategy that used seedling mat heaters and electronic temperature controllers. I found that 60-80W of heating with a temp controller would easily keep most smallish battery banks above 50º in unheated battery areas here in Colorado- and it gets cold here too. Like others, I was worried about the reliability of inexpensive heater mats purchased on Amazon, so I started using wifi temperature controllers that could connect to a customer wifi network and push temperature data and alerts to my phone. With many heated lithium systems in the field for years now, I have yet to have a heating system failure, and I’m surprised at how little energy it seems to take to keep batteries at a safe temperature over the winter. There are viable site-engineered options for the situation you describe. Having said all that, I have stopped building battery heater systems due to the appearance on the market of many LFP batteries with pre-engineered cell heating systems. If you have the option to purchase batteries with integral heaters, I’d recommend that as a first choice. Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 719.588.3044 sgsrenewables at gmail.com > On Nov 25, 2025, at 12:58 PM, Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello all, > I’ve been reading past posts regarding Battery Box Heating & am trying to find a simple way to heat an OSB insulated box for various LFP type batteries. > > One Battery Company’s tech support said he uses (at his own home) a 110vac incandescent bulb plugged in to a thermostat (inexpensive) that lets him heat between 32 & 50 degrees F. > > I had somebody suggest the same thing with some Christmas lights. > The box & inverter & C.C. are in an un- heated garage on the Canadian border of NY. ( It can, & does get pretty cold up here.) > > Any suggestions? > > It’s Off-Grid & the owners want their Starlink & Security Cameras to be on year round. > > Thanks ahead of time! > And, Happy Turkey Day! > > Amanda Potter > Energy Storage Systems > NABCEP PVIP > Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC > (315) 212-2114 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Nov 26 09:55:15 2025 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2025 14:55:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2KW PCS import/export limit on a 25KW transformer; Oncor in Texas Message-ID: In my 13 years installing solar in Texas, I've never had a utility come back and say "you must set a PCS limit of 2KW through this 25KW transformer or you can pay to upgrade the transformer." System is 12KW of solar (9KW AC equiv.) and 6x Enphase 5P batteries (23KW AC) so total of 32KW of potential power export if the batteries were grid-exporting at same time of peak solar production. I can see the batteries charging at 23KW if charging from grid but of course solar can never be a load. And exporting battery power simply not a financially smart option. So the only answer I can come up with is this transformer is serving more than this home and seems undersized by utility if it's serving multiple homes with 200-amp services. Few words from Oncor is that this is the issue. I alerted Oncor to the Power Control System capabilities to limit power export and they are insistent that 2KW is all they can take (they never said if this a import or export limit). I asked if this was a grid-tied system only with no ESS, would it have come back with the same 9KW (AC) limit? I think they are tripping over the combined connected capacity of solar + ESS. Anybody else in Texas running into this recently? I told Oncor I'd be perfectly fine with 9KW export capability (the solar) and limit grid-charging to this power, too. This isn't Hawaii...so I'm super surprised and about to lose a lot of money. Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP PV Installation Professional TECL 29755 254-300-1228 [cid:3833d2ce-5501-4b5c-9d22-f2071037571a] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-cbrq1kwn.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: Outlook-cbrq1kwn.png URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Wed Nov 26 10:52:32 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2025 07:52:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2KW PCS import/export limit on a 25KW transformer; Oncor in Texas Message-ID: I do not know how they do it in Texas, but in Colorado, it's pretty typical to run a 200A (38kW continuous) service from a 10kVA transformer. Or even several houses with 100 to 200A services from a single 10 or 15kVA transformer. If all even a few of the houses start drawing anywhere near their full amperage for a long period of the time (grow operations were the common reason for this) the transformer explodes. They are apparently relying on the very low typical load factor for residential services. Many of these are older services installed in the 70's to 90's, but some are newer ones and still not a 25kVA transformer for a 200A service that would seem more reasonable. A grid tied PV system will often load the transformer much higher than typical residential loads because of the long hours of operation. I've had two ESS/PV systems recently where they required a transformer upgrade before they would allow me to backfeed at full system capacity. Both were all in one inverters, not separate PV and ESS inverters. In one case I had 10.135kW CEC rating of inverter capacity on a 10kVA transformer, but in the other case they calculated that I could not go over 6.6kVA of export on a 10kVA transformer for some reason -- this was on a brand new service, new construction, so I was quite surprised by this limit. 2kW seems insanely low for a 25kVA transformer to me. In both of my cases in Colorado, they are upgrading the transformers to 25kVA at very little cost to the customer -- $300, which I figure is 10% or less the actual cost -- so we opted for the transformer upgrade rather than limiting export. Sounds like Oncor is charging actual cost for the transformer upgrade? -- Zeke Yewdall PV Engineer NABCEP #031508-89 zeke at darkforestsolar.com 303-523-3592 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Nov 26 10:59:20 2025 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2025 10:59:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2KW PCS import/export limit on a 25KW transformer; Oncor in Texas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If Oncor is anything like my utility here in NYS, they have a 25kwAC export limit. The utility here will count anything that can potentially export some amount of power towards that limit. For example 4 kw of solar on an 8kw inverter counts as 8kw towards the limit. Maybe you can tell them that the batteries will not export anything? And at least in NY if other customers are on the same transformer, they are not allowed to charge for a transformer upgrade. Good luck! On Wed, Nov 26, 2025, 9:57 AM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > In my 13 years installing solar in Texas, I've never had a utility come > back and say "you must set a PCS limit of 2KW through this 25KW transformer > or you can pay to upgrade the transformer." > > System is 12KW of solar (9KW AC equiv.) and 6x Enphase 5P batteries (23KW > AC) so total of 32KW of potential power export if the batteries were > grid-exporting at same time of peak solar production. I can see the > batteries charging at 23KW if charging from grid but of course solar can > never be a load. And exporting battery power simply not a financially > smart option. > > So the only answer I can come up with is this transformer is serving more > than this home and seems undersized by utility if it's serving multiple > homes with 200-amp services. Few words from Oncor is that this is the issue. > > I alerted Oncor to the Power Control System capabilities to limit power > export and they are insistent that 2KW is all they can take (they never > said if this a import or export limit). I asked if this was a grid-tied > system only with no ESS, would it have come back with the same 9KW (AC) > limit? I think they are tripping over the combined connected capacity of > solar + ESS. > > Anybody else in Texas running into this recently? I told Oncor I'd be > perfectly fine with 9KW export capability (the solar) and limit > grid-charging to this power, too. > > This isn't Hawaii...so I'm super surprised and about to lose a lot of > money. > > *Howard "Scot" Arey* > *Owner, Solar CenTex* > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > TECL 29755 > 254-300-1228 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-cbrq1kwn.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-cbrq1kwn.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 11:20:04 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2025 08:20:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2KW PCS import/export limit on a 25KW transformer; Oncor in Texas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here in Oregon we have the Public Utility Commission that acts as a regulatory agency to keep Utilities on similar standards. Their standard residential limit to PV export is 25kW. Occasionally we will have a customer with a smaller transformer and, though I would typically not go beyond the transformer rating, I leave it to them to say no during the net metering application process. I heard second hand from one of pacific power's estimators that if the customer wants to avoid the cost of a transformer upgrade to direct them to run heavy loads for a couple weeks and complain about lights flickering, surging, etc. And pac power will be more inclined to cover the cost of upgrading to a 25kW transformer. Recently Pac Power tried to make policy that the PUC limit of 25kW meant that the AC rating of inverters couldn't be higher than 25kW regardless of PV export capability. Our local lobbying agency ORSSIA challenged that at the PUC meeting and forced them to change that policy on the basis that they weren't allowed to limit the customer's ability to back up their loads. Not sure if there are any unified standards among utilities in Texas. It sounds as if the customer may need to consider the cost of upgrading the transformer...but I would definitely keep trying to reason with the utility to avoid them cementing a possibly mislead notion as policy. I've found that being able to explain it well to the right person can be the most effective approach(and possibly alleviate the utility's concerns as well). Best of luck! On Wed, Nov 26, 2025, 7:53 AM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I do not know how they do it in Texas, but in Colorado, it's pretty > typical to run a 200A (38kW continuous) service from a 10kVA transformer. > Or even several houses with 100 to 200A services from a single 10 or 15kVA > transformer. If all even a few of the houses start drawing anywhere > near their full amperage for a long period of the time (grow operations > were the common reason for this) the transformer explodes. They are > apparently relying on the very low typical load factor for residential > services. Many of these are older services installed in the 70's to 90's, > but some are newer ones and still not a 25kVA transformer for a 200A > service that would seem more reasonable. A grid tied PV system will often > load the transformer much higher than typical residential loads because of > the long hours of operation. > > I've had two ESS/PV systems recently where they required a transformer > upgrade before they would allow me to backfeed at full system capacity. > Both were all in one inverters, not separate PV and ESS inverters. In one > case I had 10.135kW CEC rating of inverter capacity on a 10kVA transformer, > but in the other case they calculated that I could not go over 6.6kVA of > export on a 10kVA transformer for some reason -- this was on a brand new > service, new construction, so I was quite surprised by this limit. 2kW > seems insanely low for a 25kVA transformer to me. In both of my cases in > Colorado, they are upgrading the transformers to 25kVA at very little cost > to the customer -- $300, which I figure is 10% or less the actual cost -- > so we opted for the transformer upgrade rather than limiting export. > Sounds like Oncor is charging actual cost for the transformer upgrade? > > -- > Zeke Yewdall > PV Engineer > NABCEP #031508-89 > zeke at darkforestsolar.com > 303-523-3592 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Nov 26 13:42:03 2025 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2025 10:42:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2KW PCS import/export limit on a 25KW transformer; Oncor in Texas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It looks like Oncor is using the total generation facility nameplate of PV + ESS inverter ratings, or something along those lines. That's the same as we see in PG&E territory here in California. You might be able to use a PCS setting to limit grid battery charging and then maybe use Aggregate power export limit (see 5.4): https://enphase.com/download/power-control-system-integration-enphase-energy-system-tech-brief There are many solutions that PCS will provide if the utility recognizes PCS as a bonafide solution. -August On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 6:57 AM scot.arey--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > In my 13 years installing solar in Texas, I've never had a utility come > back and say "you must set a PCS limit of 2KW through this 25KW transformer > or you can pay to upgrade the transformer." > > System is 12KW of solar (9KW AC equiv.) and 6x Enphase 5P batteries (23KW > AC) so total of 32KW of potential power export if the batteries were > grid-exporting at same time of peak solar production. I can see the > batteries charging at 23KW if charging from grid but of course solar can > never be a load. And exporting battery power simply not a financially > smart option. > > So the only answer I can come up with is this transformer is serving more > than this home and seems undersized by utility if it's serving multiple > homes with 200-amp services. Few words from Oncor is that this is the issue. > > I alerted Oncor to the Power Control System capabilities to limit power > export and they are insistent that 2KW is all they can take (they never > said if this a import or export limit). I asked if this was a grid-tied > system only with no ESS, would it have come back with the same 9KW (AC) > limit? I think they are tripping over the combined connected capacity of > solar + ESS. > > Anybody else in Texas running into this recently? I told Oncor I'd be > perfectly fine with 9KW export capability (the solar) and limit > grid-charging to this power, too. > > This isn't Hawaii...so I'm super surprised and about to lose a lot of > money. > > *Howard "Scot" Arey* > *Owner, Solar CenTex* > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > TECL 29755 > 254-300-1228 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-cbrq1kwn.png Type: image/png Size: 294949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Wed Nov 26 13:54:41 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2025 10:54:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2KW PCS import/export limit on a 25KW transformer; Oncor in Texas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In Colorado, there was no consistency. Many utilities there do have a 25kW cap (even if on a 2000A service -- yes, there are some residences with ridiculous services like that, and many of them also use the 25kW cap for commercial buildings with large services too). But Xcel used to have a 10kW cap for residential for many years, and now it's larger, can't remember if it's 25kW or higher, and I think it's 2MW cap for commercial services. Just about all of the Colorado caps were/are based on DC STC array rating. New Mexico still has a 10kW cap (based on CEC inverter rating, does not matter if it's listed as a PCS or has a smaller array). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 14:06:42 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2025 12:06:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2KW PCS import/export limit on a 25KW transformer; Oncor in Texas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19E59C81-0EA5-4F42-AC27-DE162D334EB1@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 26 14:08:56 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2025 12:08:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2KW PCS import/export limit on a 25KW transformer; Oncor in Texas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <192C6968-DE9D-4231-B843-3A3E14737269@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Nov 28 13:40:30 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2025 10:40:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FX Inverter as a dumb charger Message-ID: Friends: One of my clients has one VFXR3648A inverter connected to 8 L16 batteries. We upgraded their generator to 12 kW. One leg of the generator is unloaded and the batteries can accept twice the charge current one FX can provide. It seems another inverter is called for. I have several functional VFXR3648 inverters on the shelf. I know I can not mix versions of the inverter in the hub. Could I connect a VFX3648 to the unused generator leg and battery bank but not the hub as a ‘dumb’ charger? I would plug in a Mate just long enough to verify settings. Has anyone tried this? Thanks in advance for any advice. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 14:31:50 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2025 12:31:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FX Inverter as a dumb charger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2842351E-C7F5-42FE-89DA-446D888802C5@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 14:44:50 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2025 14:44:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Pro iPhone app Message-ID: Does anyone know why the iPhone app for the Midnite AIO is currently unavailable? Howie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Nov 28 15:04:30 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2025 14:04:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Pro iPhone app In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <183DA8A8-EB0E-4BA9-B5ED-3338E69EDC1F@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 15:08:36 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2025 12:08:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Pro iPhone app In-Reply-To: <183DA8A8-EB0E-4BA9-B5ED-3338E69EDC1F@mavericksolar.com> References: <183DA8A8-EB0E-4BA9-B5ED-3338E69EDC1F@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: It's being updated/relaunched.. allegedly will be available in a week or so On Fri, Nov 28, 2025, 12:05 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I’m guessing because of the spin off / name change. > > Here is the link when I share the app on my phone. If it doesn’t open in > the App Store, it may have been removed by Apple. > > apps.apple.com > > > > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Nov 28, 2025, at 1:46 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Does anyone know why the iPhone app for the Midnite AIO is currently > unavailable? > Howie > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 15:31:38 2025 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2025 15:31:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Pro user question Message-ID: Another couple of Midnite App questions: - Is there a way to reset a user's access to the App? Some clients have lost the access info and I haven't figured out how to get it back for them. - The web access "service.midnitepower.com" has an operator management section. I can't figure out how to give my employees access to different client accounts using this function. Is this section not for doing that? Thanks, Howie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 16:30:46 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2025 14:30:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Pro iPhone app In-Reply-To: References: <183DA8A8-EB0E-4BA9-B5ED-3338E69EDC1F@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <3E56C160-F6C2-48A3-9A34-9D5B9A1BE03F@gmail.com> Is it something in the water or what? Why can’t solar companies let us know what’s going on? I mean they have a website, just put a big notice on the website that its down, why and when it will be back. They have email addresses of everyone, pretty sure its free to send emails to let people know? Amateurs > On Nov 28, 2025, at 1:08 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches wrote: > > It's being updated/relaunched.. allegedly will be available in a week or so > > > > > On Fri, Nov 28, 2025, 12:05 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> I’m guessing because of the spin off / name change. >> >> Here is the link when I share the app on my phone. If it doesn’t open in the App Store, it may have been removed by Apple. >> >> apps.apple.com >> >> apps.apple.com >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >>> On Nov 28, 2025, at 1:46 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Does anyone know why the iPhone app for the Midnite AIO is currently unavailable? >>> Howie >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Fri Nov 28 17:26:47 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2025 17:26:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Pro iPhone app In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The app for the Iphone has been revamped but Apple took down the older one, it will take a week or so for it to be approved and get back up. The Android is still available. On Fri, Nov 28, 2025 at 2:46 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Does anyone know why the iPhone app for the Midnite AIO is currently > unavailable? > Howie > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Fri Nov 28 17:29:21 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2025 17:29:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Pro iPhone app In-Reply-To: <3E56C160-F6C2-48A3-9A34-9D5B9A1BE03F@gmail.com> References: <183DA8A8-EB0E-4BA9-B5ED-3338E69EDC1F@mavericksolar.com> <3E56C160-F6C2-48A3-9A34-9D5B9A1BE03F@gmail.com> Message-ID: MNP sent out a letter to all the distribution channels in regards to this. On Fri, Nov 28, 2025 at 4:32 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Is it something in the water or what? > > Why can’t solar companies let us know what’s going on? > > I mean they have a website, just put a big notice on the website that its > down, why and when it will be back. > > They have email addresses of everyone, pretty sure its free to send emails > to let people know? > > Amateurs > > > > > > On Nov 28, 2025, at 1:08 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > It's being updated/relaunched.. allegedly will be available in a week or so > > > > > On Fri, Nov 28, 2025, 12:05 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I’m guessing because of the spin off / name change. >> >> Here is the link when I share the app on my phone. If it doesn’t open in >> the App Store, it may have been removed by Apple. >> >> apps.apple.com >> >> >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >> On Nov 28, 2025, at 1:46 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Does anyone know why the iPhone app for the Midnite AIO is currently >> unavailable? >> Howie >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Fri Nov 28 18:13:51 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2025 15:13:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Pro iPhone app In-Reply-To: References: <183DA8A8-EB0E-4BA9-B5ED-3338E69EDC1F@mavericksolar.com> <3E56C160-F6C2-48A3-9A34-9D5B9A1BE03F@gmail.com> Message-ID: I was very grateful to recieve a courtesy call from the hard working tech support team at MNP, not only checking in to see that all our systems were working well going into the holiday weekend but also to let us know the app may be unavailable in the apple store for a few days. The online portal and existing apps will continue uninterrupted. On Fri, Nov 28, 2025, 2:31 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > MNP sent out a letter to all the distribution channels in regards to this. > > > On Fri, Nov 28, 2025 at 4:32 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Is it something in the water or what? >> >> Why can’t solar companies let us know what’s going on? >> >> I mean they have a website, just put a big notice on the website that its >> down, why and when it will be back. >> >> They have email addresses of everyone, pretty sure its free to send >> emails to let people know? >> >> Amateurs >> >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 28, 2025, at 1:08 PM, Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> It's being updated/relaunched.. allegedly will be available in a week or >> so >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 28, 2025, 12:05 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I’m guessing because of the spin off / name change. >>> >>> Here is the link when I share the app on my phone. If it doesn’t open in >>> the App Store, it may have been removed by Apple. >>> >>> apps.apple.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Maverick >>> >>> Maverick Brown >>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >>> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >>> • Solar Commander Remote Power >>> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >>> maverick at mavericksolar.com >>> 512-460-9825 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 28, 2025, at 1:46 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Does anyone know why the iPhone app for the Midnite AIO is currently >>> unavailable? >>> Howie >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Nov 28 18:43:51 2025 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill P. Battagin) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2025 18:43:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] FX Inverter as a dumb charger In-Reply-To: <2842351E-C7F5-42FE-89DA-446D888802C5@gmail.com> References: <2842351E-C7F5-42FE-89DA-446D888802C5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <739454332.16462940.1764373431827.JavaMail.zimbra@psln.com> William, Assuming the 12KW generator has 240 volt output, run the 240V through a transformer and double your 120 volt amps. I guess if you have a spare OB 3648 in the boneyard then you would be saving the cost of a transformer. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Freight) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA  95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 From: "Jay via RE-wrenches" To: william at millersolar.com, "RE-wrenches" Cc: "Jay" Sent: Friday, November 28, 2025 11:31:50 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FX Inverter as a dumb charger Hi william Yes I’ve done it many times without issues On Nov 28, 2025, at 11:41 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: BQ_BEGIN Friends: One of my clients has one VFXR3648A inverter connected to 8 L16 batteries. We upgraded their generator to 12 kW. One leg of the generator is unloaded and the batteries can accept twice the charge current one FX can provide. It seems another inverter is called for. I have several functional VFXR3648 inverters on the shelf. I know I can not mix versions of the inverter in the hub. Could I connect a VFX3648 to the unused generator leg and battery bank but not the hub as a ‘dumb’ charger? I would plug in a Mate just long enough to verify settings. Has anyone tried this? Thanks in advance for any advice. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 [ http://www.millersolar.com/ | www.millersolar.com ] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org BQ_END _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Nov 29 00:03:46 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2025 21:03:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FX Inverter as a dumb charger In-Reply-To: <739454332.16462940.1764373431827.JavaMail.zimbra@psln.com> References: <2842351E-C7F5-42FE-89DA-446D888802C5@gmail.com> <739454332.16462940.1764373431827.JavaMail.zimbra@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill: I have too many generator amps but not enough battery charge amps. A transformer will balance the generator but won’t increase charge amps. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Fri, Nov 28, 2025 at 3:46 PM Bill P. Battagin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > William, > > Assuming the 12KW generator has 240 volt output, run the > 240V through a transformer and double your 120 volt amps. I guess if you > have a spare OB 3648 in the boneyard then you would be saving the cost of a > transformer. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, owner > 4291 Nelson St. (Freight) > 5575 Genesee Rd . (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > > > ------------------------------ > *From: *"Jay via RE-wrenches" > *To: *william at millersolar.com, "RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Cc: *"Jay" > *Sent: *Friday, November 28, 2025 11:31:50 AM > *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] FX Inverter as a dumb charger > > Hi william > > Yes I’ve done it many times without issues > > On Nov 28, 2025, at 11:41 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Friends: > > One of my clients has one VFXR3648A inverter connected to 8 L16 batteries. > We upgraded their generator to 12 kW. > > One leg of the generator is unloaded and the batteries can accept twice > the charge current one FX can provide. It seems another inverter is called > for. > > I have several functional VFXR3648 inverters on the shelf. I know I can > not mix versions of the inverter in the hub. Could I connect a VFX3648 to > the unused generator leg and battery bank but not the hub as a ‘dumb’ > charger? I would plug in a Mate just long enough to verify settings. > > Has anyone tried this? Thanks in advance for any advice. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Nov 29 08:59:58 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2025 08:59:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Pro user question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The end user should be able to use the Forgot Password link. The Account Name is just the end user name shown in the portal. I don't think Midnite can reset the password on their end or resend credentials. On a new system where I used the wrong email address, I have had to have Midnite delete the account and recreate it. The User Management has a lot to be desired. I don't think you can create an employee account and limit it to certain sites, but I hope I'm wrong. We just share the company credentials with select employees. There is a sub operator function, but I haven't figured out how to use it (and just deleted a site by accident while trying). Again, this function needs work. I'm curious how to transfer a site to a new owner and retain all of the history. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Nov 28, 2025, 3:34 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Another couple of Midnite App questions: > > - Is there a way to reset a user's access to the App? Some clients > have lost the access info and I haven't figured out how to get it back for > them. > - The web access "service.midnitepower.com" has an operator management > section. I can't figure out how to give my employees access to different > client accounts using this function. Is this section not for doing that? > > Thanks, > Howie > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Nov 29 09:07:05 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2025 09:07:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FX Inverter as a dumb charger In-Reply-To: References: <2842351E-C7F5-42FE-89DA-446D888802C5@gmail.com> <739454332.16462940.1764373431827.JavaMail.zimbra@psln.com> Message-ID: William, I have a customer with the Flexware 500 and 2 GVFX3648's He put in a 120V generator later and wanted to use it automatically for a grid backup. We we installed a VFX3648 as a separate battery charger to charge the 2 Fortress LFP10 batteries during an outage when there was insufficient sun. It has its own basic MATE to set up the AGS. Works great. We talked about also adding an outlet on the AC output side for a last ditch emergency power source but could also have a dedicated generator outlet. We left that for later. On Sat, Nov 29, 2025 at 12:05 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Bill: > > I have too many generator amps but not enough battery charge amps. A > transformer will balance the generator but won’t increase charge amps. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Fri, Nov 28, 2025 at 3:46 PM Bill P. Battagin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> William, >> >> Assuming the 12KW generator has 240 volt output, run the >> 240V through a transformer and double your 120 volt amps. I guess if you >> have a spare OB 3648 in the boneyard then you would be saving the cost of a >> transformer. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, owner >> 4291 Nelson St. (Freight) >> 5575 Genesee Rd . (USPS, UPS) >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >> Solar Powered since 1982 >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From: *"Jay via RE-wrenches" >> *To: *william at millersolar.com, "RE-wrenches" < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Cc: *"Jay" >> *Sent: *Friday, November 28, 2025 11:31:50 AM >> *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] FX Inverter as a dumb charger >> >> Hi william >> >> Yes I’ve done it many times without issues >> >> On Nov 28, 2025, at 11:41 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> One of my clients has one VFXR3648A inverter connected to 8 L16 >> batteries. We upgraded their generator to 12 kW. >> >> One leg of the generator is unloaded and the batteries can accept twice >> the charge current one FX can provide. It seems another inverter is called >> for. >> >> I have several functional VFXR3648 inverters on the shelf. I know I can >> not mix versions of the inverter in the hub. Could I connect a VFX3648 to >> the unused generator leg and battery bank but not the hub as a ‘dumb’ >> charger? I would plug in a Mate just long enough to verify settings. >> >> Has anyone tried this? Thanks in advance for any advice. >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Nov 29 18:25:08 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2025 23:25:08 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac coupled to Solark 12KW with limited grid sell Message-ID: Hey all Wize guys! I have a friend who wants more power for his all electric house & does not want to upset his utility agreement by increasing his system size by upgrading. I want to Ac couple a 3800watt SolarEdge wave inverter to a Solark 12kw [no battery], add 5000 watts of PV to the Solark & only sell back 3800 watts to the utility. I am pretty sure this is possible. Any comments or questions welcome. _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Mon Dec 1 11:46:46 2025 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2025 16:46:46 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGMs - Maintenance Cycling Message-ID: Folks, I have some AGMs that are PV charged during normal use and can be line charged when in storage (IOTA). The batteries will generally see 10-20% daily DOD and will generally complete the absorb cycle and see a fair amount of float each day. They may be deployed in this mode for many months. After that, they will go into storage for several months. Storage will include float charging at the IOTAs regular voltage. I have the LVD set at 46V. Would it make sense to occasionally turn on the load, turn off the line charger, let the bank run down to LVD, turn off the load, turn on the charger with the increased voltage jumper installed, charge overnight, remove jumper and resume normal float charging? Thanks, Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Mon Dec 1 14:39:30 2025 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2025 19:39:30 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] LFP Battery Box Heating In-Reply-To: <66BC7A68-8E2D-4C15-8A68-E8B1376B565D@gmail.com> References: <66BC7A68-8E2D-4C15-8A68-E8B1376B565D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Why not skip the external heating problem and buy batteries with built-in heating like the Discover AES or Helios? I got the heated AES rack mount; it was $50 more per module, which seems worth it. The Helios has the heater built in and I believe it has higher energy density. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2025 2:58 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Amanda Potter Subject: [EXTERNAL] [RE-wrenches] LFP Battery Box Heating CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Hello all, I’ve been reading past posts regarding Battery Box Heating & am trying to find a simple way to heat an OSB insulated box for various LFP type batteries. One Battery Company’s tech support said he uses (at his own home) a 110vac incandescent bulb plugged in to a thermostat (inexpensive) that lets him heat between 32 & 50 degrees F. I had somebody suggest the same thing with some Christmas lights. The box & inverter & C.C. are in an un- heated garage on the Canadian border of NY. ( It can, & does get pretty cold up here.) Any suggestions? It’s Off-Grid & the owners want their Starlink & Security Cameras to be on year round. Thanks ahead of time! And, Happy Turkey Day! Amanda Potter Energy Storage Systems NABCEP PVIP Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC (315) 212-2114 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!dfQrJDaq9MyHTmNIWzmxs3Xnr4ceZjSqbfzq1jiNCJTWTanSOPXtMciAG3FIUtEoaVsQWE6s3x5pt_H8Th8sG8n_JvQODvWA$ List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!dfQrJDaq9MyHTmNIWzmxs3Xnr4ceZjSqbfzq1jiNCJTWTanSOPXtMciAG3FIUtEoaVsQWE6s3x5pt_H8Th8sG8n_JmuY0HR7$ There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!dfQrJDaq9MyHTmNIWzmxs3Xnr4ceZjSqbfzq1jiNCJTWTanSOPXtMciAG3FIUtEoaVsQWE6s3x5pt_H8Th8sG8n_Jt3l6o_q$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!dfQrJDaq9MyHTmNIWzmxs3Xnr4ceZjSqbfzq1jiNCJTWTanSOPXtMciAG3FIUtEoaVsQWE6s3x5pt_H8Th8sG8n_JrMXQeqI$ List rules & etiquette: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!dfQrJDaq9MyHTmNIWzmxs3Xnr4ceZjSqbfzq1jiNCJTWTanSOPXtMciAG3FIUtEoaVsQWE6s3x5pt_H8Th8sG8n_JvyllLG1$ Check out or update participant bios: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.members.re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!dfQrJDaq9MyHTmNIWzmxs3Xnr4ceZjSqbfzq1jiNCJTWTanSOPXtMciAG3FIUtEoaVsQWE6s3x5pt_H8Th8sG8n_JsRLdSQQ$ ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Mon Dec 1 14:57:01 2025 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2025 13:57:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGMs - Maintenance Cycling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is there a specific problem you are trying to resolve? If the loads are shut off when in storage, I don't see any issue with not messing with any charging what-so-ever for some months of storage. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Mon, Dec 1, 2025 at 10:47 AM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Folks, > > > > I have some AGMs that are PV charged during normal use and can be line > charged when in storage (IOTA). > > > > The batteries will generally see 10-20% daily DOD and will generally > complete the absorb cycle and see a fair amount of float each day. > > > > They may be deployed in this mode for many months. > > > > After that, they will go into storage for several months. > > > > Storage will include float charging at the IOTAs regular voltage. > > > > I have the LVD set at 46V. > > > > Would it make sense to occasionally turn on the load, turn off the line > charger, let the bank run down to LVD, turn off the load, turn on the > charger with the increased voltage jumper installed, charge overnight, > remove jumper and resume normal float charging? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mark > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 18:30:52 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2025 16:30:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGMs - Maintenance Cycling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <793CB494-CA4A-4CE4-9CDC-A03A462DF72D@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon Dec 1 21:19:36 2025 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2025 02:19:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Starlink mini or cellular booster Message-ID: Has anyone tried the starlink mini on the road? What about a good cellular reception booster kit? Any feedback is appreciated. Regards, Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent from Jeremy's iPhone. From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 21:24:21 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2025 18:24:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Starlink mini or cellular booster In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, starlink mini on truck is awesome! Works while driving (if clear skies, no trees/mountains in the way). My guys use it to commission systems before wifi is available. Northern California. Mike On Mon, Dec 1, 2025 at 6:23 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Has anyone tried the starlink mini on the road? What about a good cellular > reception booster kit? Any feedback is appreciated. > > Regards, > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent from Jeremy's iPhone. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Dec 1 21:36:44 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2025 02:36:44 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Starlink mini or cellular booster In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Starlink mini is excellent, game-changing. Put one on my service truck 5 months ago. Set cell phone to IP calling and no more dropped calls. And calls, video, etc anywhere. I was surprised at how well it did work on some client sites even with tall trees. The WiFi on the mini is weak so the range is short. I tied a higher power Wireless access point in so can power that up if needed. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches Sent: December-01-25 6:20 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez Subject: [RE-wrenches] Starlink mini or cellular booster Has anyone tried the starlink mini on the road? What about a good cellular reception booster kit? Any feedback is appreciated. Regards, Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent from Jeremy's iPhone. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Tue Dec 2 07:29:55 2025 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2025 12:29:55 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGMs - Maintenance Cycling In-Reply-To: References: <793CB494-CA4A-4CE4-9CDC-A03A462DF72D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Guys, I guess I am wondering if the overall life of the battery will suffer if it is only ever cycled between 0 and 20% DOD and never deep cycled. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, December 1, 2025 3:31 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jay > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AGMs - Maintenance Cycling Agreed and especially if the batteries are in a cooler to cold environment even less an issue as the colder temps slows down any self discharge Jay On Dec 1, 2025, at 12:57 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Is there a specific problem you are trying to resolve? If the loads are shut off when in storage, I don't see any issue with not messing with any charging what-so-ever for some months of storage. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Mon, Dec 1, 2025 at 10:47 AM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches > wrote: Folks, I have some AGMs that are PV charged during normal use and can be line charged when in storage (IOTA). The batteries will generally see 10-20% daily DOD and will generally complete the absorb cycle and see a fair amount of float each day. They may be deployed in this mode for many months. After that, they will go into storage for several months. Storage will include float charging at the IOTAs regular voltage. I have the LVD set at 46V. Would it make sense to occasionally turn on the load, turn off the line charger, let the bank run down to LVD, turn off the load, turn on the charger with the increased voltage jumper installed, charge overnight, remove jumper and resume normal float charging? Thanks, Mark _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Dec 2 07:41:28 2025 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2025 06:41:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGMs - Maintenance Cycling In-Reply-To: References: <793CB494-CA4A-4CE4-9CDC-A03A462DF72D@gmail.com> Message-ID: The life of the batteries will be longer in that service then in a deep cycling service. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Tue, Dec 2, 2025 at 6:30 AM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > Thanks Guys, > > > > I guess I am wondering if the overall life of the battery will suffer if > it is only ever cycled between 0 and 20% DOD and never deep cycled. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jay via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, December 1, 2025 3:31 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jay > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AGMs - Maintenance Cycling > > > > Agreed and especially if the batteries are in a cooler to cold environment > even less an issue as the colder temps slows down any self discharge > > > > Jay > > > > On Dec 1, 2025, at 12:57 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Is there a specific problem you are trying to resolve? If the loads are > shut off when in storage, I don't see any issue with not messing with any > charging what-so-ever for some months of storage. > > > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2025 at 10:47 AM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Folks, > > > > I have some AGMs that are PV charged during normal use and can be line > charged when in storage (IOTA). > > > > The batteries will generally see 10-20% daily DOD and will generally > complete the absorb cycle and see a fair amount of float each day. > > > > They may be deployed in this mode for many months. > > > > After that, they will go into storage for several months. > > > > Storage will include float charging at the IOTAs regular voltage. > > > > I have the LVD set at 46V. > > > > Would it make sense to occasionally turn on the load, turn off the line > charger, let the bank run down to LVD, turn off the load, turn on the > charger with the increased voltage jumper installed, charge overnight, > remove jumper and resume normal float charging? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mark > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From berkeleysolar at outlook.com Tue Dec 2 08:08:26 2025 From: berkeleysolar at outlook.com (Mark Frye) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2025 13:08:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGMs - Maintenance Cycling In-Reply-To: References: <793CB494-CA4A-4CE4-9CDC-A03A462DF72D@gmail.com> Message-ID: OK, I am thinking the most important thing is to ensure that the batteries are fully charged before I put them into storage. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of James Jarvis via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2025 4:41 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: James Jarvis Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AGMs - Maintenance Cycling The life of the batteries will be longer in that service then in a deep cycling service. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Tue, Dec 2, 2025 at 6:30 AM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches > wrote: Thanks Guys, I guess I am wondering if the overall life of the battery will suffer if it is only ever cycled between 0 and 20% DOD and never deep cycled. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, December 1, 2025 3:31 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jay > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AGMs - Maintenance Cycling Agreed and especially if the batteries are in a cooler to cold environment even less an issue as the colder temps slows down any self discharge Jay On Dec 1, 2025, at 12:57 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Is there a specific problem you are trying to resolve? If the loads are shut off when in storage, I don't see any issue with not messing with any charging what-so-ever for some months of storage. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Mon, Dec 1, 2025 at 10:47 AM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches > wrote: Folks, I have some AGMs that are PV charged during normal use and can be line charged when in storage (IOTA). The batteries will generally see 10-20% daily DOD and will generally complete the absorb cycle and see a fair amount of float each day. They may be deployed in this mode for many months. After that, they will go into storage for several months. Storage will include float charging at the IOTAs regular voltage. I have the LVD set at 46V. Would it make sense to occasionally turn on the load, turn off the line charger, let the bank run down to LVD, turn off the load, turn on the charger with the increased voltage jumper installed, charge overnight, remove jumper and resume normal float charging? Thanks, Mark _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Dec 2 10:08:23 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2025 07:08:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AGMs - Maintenance Cycling In-Reply-To: References: <793CB494-CA4A-4CE4-9CDC-A03A462DF72D@gmail.com> Message-ID: AGMs are generally a lead calcium chemistry battery; lead calcium batteries are meant for a float service, which means they can sit in float for a long time without losing much capacity, but they can lose up to 10-15% when held in float for over 6 months, with the newer carbon additives that recoverd lost capacity comes back easier and faster than they did just 10 years ago. . Periodic cycling helps exercise the batteries and test the system, ensuring that when power goes out, the installer/user can verify it works as expected. For FLA and AGMs, you should turn off the AC input breakers every 6 months and allow the inverter to switch to inverting mode for 2 to 4 hours. Monitor the DC voltage at each battery to ensure the individual battery voltages are falling uniformly, if six volt batteries they should fall withing .4 to .6 vdc of each other while 12v agm should be about .6 to .8vdc of each other. This is a quick test to ensure all cells are healthy and loading correctly. After the (20-30%) discharge, put the system into bypass, loosen, clean (if necessary), and retorque your connections at all batteries, all the way back to the inverters. In a stationary application, these can loosen up over 9-12 months. In a mobile application, that's about 4-6 months... After the connections, you can switch it back to normal mode and allow the chargers to recharge the battery bank to full capacity. The most common issue with AGMs is chronic undercharging, which causes sulfation. This builds internal resistance in the battery and, over time, leads to cell heating and swelling. Please ensure the Bulk/Absorb V is set correctly for the full absorption timers with AGM. If you don't get the Absorb Timers long enough, you will quickly lose top-end capacity, usually within 2-3 months of operation. By the time it's discovered, the damage has already been done and is very difficult to recover. There are many inverters and chargers on the market with pre-programmed "AGM" settings that are made up by some inverter/charger manufacturers and will quickly kill an AGM battery bank. Another issue is companies that rely solely on end amps (return amps or tail current) to determine whether an AGM battery is fully charged. Depending on the AGM, the battery is not fully charged until the current going into the battery falls below 2-4 % of the C20 rate for 60 mins... not the 0, 3, or 10 mins that many manufacturers are using today. Yes, some manufacturers will transition from ABSORB to float immediately once the charging current falls below 2%-4% of the C20 rate. That will kill any battery, and with LFP, it could cause massive balancing issues over time. Maybe more than you wanted, but I hope this helps... *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Dec 2, 2025 at 5:10 AM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > OK, I am thinking the most important thing is to ensure that the batteries > are fully charged before I put them into storage. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *James Jarvis via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 2, 2025 4:41 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* James Jarvis > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AGMs - Maintenance Cycling > > > > The life of the batteries will be longer in that service then in a deep > cycling service. > > > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 2, 2025 at 6:30 AM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > Thanks Guys, > > > > I guess I am wondering if the overall life of the battery will suffer if > it is only ever cycled between 0 and 20% DOD and never deep cycled. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jay via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, December 1, 2025 3:31 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jay > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AGMs - Maintenance Cycling > > > > Agreed and especially if the batteries are in a cooler to cold environment > even less an issue as the colder temps slows down any self discharge > > > > Jay > > > > On Dec 1, 2025, at 12:57 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Is there a specific problem you are trying to resolve? If the loads are > shut off when in storage, I don't see any issue with not messing with any > charging what-so-ever for some months of storage. > > > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2025 at 10:47 AM Mark Frye via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Folks, > > > > I have some AGMs that are PV charged during normal use and can be line > charged when in storage (IOTA). > > > > The batteries will generally see 10-20% daily DOD and will generally > complete the absorb cycle and see a fair amount of float each day. > > > > They may be deployed in this mode for many months. > > > > After that, they will go into storage for several months. > > > > Storage will include float charging at the IOTAs regular voltage. > > > > I have the LVD set at 46V. > > > > Would it make sense to occasionally turn on the load, turn off the line > charger, let the bank run down to LVD, turn off the load, turn on the > charger with the increased voltage jumper installed, charge overnight, > remove jumper and resume normal float charging? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mark > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Tue Dec 2 11:22:21 2025 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2025 09:22:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Starlink mini or cellular booster In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Starlink worked great for our team working off-grid in Yellowstone for a few weeks this past Summer. - Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Dec 2 12:29:05 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2025 12:29:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LITIME Batteries Message-ID: Does anyone have experience with LITIME batteries. A client with an 3024 FX inverter wants to swap his old golf cart batteries for a 24 V, 230 AH LITIME battery. It come with only a 3 year warranty. He says the battery gets great reviews. Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Tue Dec 2 16:44:25 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2025 13:44:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Starlink mini or cellular booster In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just recently got the starlink mini (for my house) in addition to the regular starlink that I've had for about 4 years. In the winter when I average well under 1PSH, the lower power use (about 20 to 25 watts DC direct, vs 60 to 100 watts on AC for the regular starlink) really helps. One thing I found on the wifi from the mini is that default is 5GHz wifi, which has poor range and won't work with at least some inverters and monitors that will only connect to 2.4Ghz. I turned on the 2.4Ghz wifi and it has much better signal strength and works with inverters and monitors better. I don't see why 5Ghz makes any sense at all with starlink of any sort, as it mostly gets you higher speed when closer to the router if you have a very fast ISP, but 2.4Ghz can do well over 100Mbps, so plenty for any starlink IMO. The mini is not as fast as the regular starlink (in the 30 to 50Mbps range, compared to 80 to 100+ Mbps for the regular one), and also is limited to 50GB per month, instead of essentially unlimited -- I think the regular one may throttle you after 500GB/month maybe. It also does not melt the dish off as well as the regular one, so I do need to clear snow from it. In my experience, cell boosters were fairly useless in the off grid areas I typically worked in the mountains of Colorado. Have to have at least one bar of signal to boost, and most places had absolutely nothing. If you just have low cell signal, they may be worth it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Dec 2 16:50:26 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2025 16:50:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Solar MNBCB 2000/200 Message-ID: Does anyone have one of these that they can part with, or know where I might find one? I desperately need one to complete a project this year, and the manufacturer isn't making any more this year from what I was told by a distributor. My usual suppliers have none. Alternatively, are there any other off-the-shelf big battery combiners out there that can handle 10 x Midnite PowerFlo16 batteries with four Midnite AIOs with overcurrent protection? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Dec 2 19:17:02 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2025 16:17:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Goodwe_A-MS Rapid shutdown Message-ID: <53819a6c9958b847f74a3b70315e5c78@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am trying to figure out how to integrate Tigo TS4-AF to this Goodwe inverter. The manuals are pretty unclear. Even this white paper is not helping. Can I incorporate a remote switch to the built-in RSS transmitter? I spoke with tech support but the representative has a very thick accent and I could not understanding the conversation. There is supposedly another document that applies but it never arrived in my email although the customer evaluation survey did so they got my email address correctly. It seems to me if I install an after-market RSS transmitter the built in RSS transmitter will keep transmitting even if I shut the after-market one down. This seems like a real conundrum. Is there anything else I should know? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Dec 3 01:03:32 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2025 01:03:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LITIME Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a few smaller LiTime batteries at remote buildings running automotive style inverters for very small loads and they run fine and, anecdotallly, seem to have good capacity. But I wouldn't trust them for anything mission critical. I have no experience with the larger ones. I also wouldn't trust any reviews on a Chinese product on Amazon. They pay for reviews. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Tue, Dec 2, 2025, 12:31 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Does anyone have experience with LITIME batteries. A client with an 3024 > FX inverter wants to swap his old golf cart batteries for a 24 V, 230 AH > LITIME battery. It come with only a 3 year warranty. > > He says the battery gets great reviews. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sue at midnitesolar.com Wed Dec 3 07:07:29 2025 From: Sue at midnitesolar.com (Sue Stankevitz) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2025 12:07:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Solar MNBCB 2000/200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, We are expecting more parts for these enclosures before the end of the year and will be doing everything possible to get them out to customers quickly so that they can complete their jobs on time. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DC6423.6E5290D0] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2025 4:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite Solar MNBCB 2000/200 Does anyone have one of these that they can part with, or know where I might find one? I desperately need one to complete a project this year, and the manufacturer isn't making any more this year from what I was told by a distributor. My usual suppliers have none. Alternatively, are there any other off-the-shelf big battery combiners out there that can handle 10 x Midnite PowerFlo16 batteries with four Midnite AIOs with overcurrent protection? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Wed Dec 3 10:40:49 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2025 10:40:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LITIME Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have dozens of LiTime 100ah batteries working on small systems in Haiti. Theas systems are cycled daily and abused. No issues with the LiTime, and at the price it is cheaper to replace than to warranty. But, almost 2 years in, the batteries are working flawlessly. Of note the first systems were installed with BattleBorn batteries, super expensive. Several died within the first year. BattleBorn would not warranty. They told them that it would be "Cheaper" just to buy a new one. So we switched to LiTime from Amazon. I can tell you that I get better service from the China company LiTime than the "USA Built" Battle Born batteries. I would never pay 3X as much for a battery that does not hold up just to get the USA sticker. Regardless of the sticker all the cells come from China unless it is from a Panasonic / Tesla Factory, and I do not think they are doing any Prismatic cells (Yet) in the USA. On Wed, Dec 3, 2025 at 1:05 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have a few smaller LiTime batteries at remote buildings running > automotive style inverters for very small loads and they run fine and, > anecdotallly, seem to have good capacity. But I wouldn't trust them for > anything mission critical. I have no experience with the larger ones. > > I also wouldn't trust any reviews on a Chinese product on Amazon. They pay > for reviews. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Tue, Dec 2, 2025, 12:31 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> >> Does anyone have experience with LITIME batteries. A client with an 3024 >> FX inverter wants to swap his old golf cart batteries for a 24 V, 230 AH >> LITIME battery. It come with only a 3 year warranty. >> >> He says the battery gets great reviews. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> >> *Drake Chamberlin* >> >> *Athens Electric LLC* >> >> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* >> >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* >> >> -- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Dec 3 12:51:34 2025 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2025 12:51:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sodium Ion vs Lithium Article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A person sent me the attached article on Sodium Ion batteries as a competitor to Lithium.  I thought it might be of interest to the WRENCHES folks.   Chris -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401) 447-5773 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Sodium v Lithium batteries.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 290546 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 08:56:29 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2025 06:56:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Firmware XW Pro Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I am visiting a site with an XW Pro and it sounds like it's burning up appliances. This system was installed by neighbors so it may be a wiring problem but I also wonder if it may have the bad firmware that was doing this (generator interaction was the problem I think). Can anyone remind me of the proper firmware that we should run for an off-grid system with the XW Pro? How to get it? And any other nuances that I should be aware of? Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 09:41:40 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2025 06:41:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sodium Ion vs Lithium Article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71066AF7-51AE-4C3D-8D5E-A914E28A0AB0@gmail.com> Hi Christopher I ve been following SIB for quite a while. And while it’s still early days the progress has been staggering. According to CATL SIB are in production at roughly $20 kWh with expected $10 in less than a year. They are producing cars in China with SIB. BYD is also producing them. Current energy density is about 175 and is going up. Cycle life is 10-20,000 C rates are much higher than LFP which is one reason they are being used in cars Temperature range is dramatically higher than LFP meaning no HVAC is needed in almost all applications Efficiency seems to be a bit lower than LFP but the lack of hvac means you do get some of that back. There is a company in the US that is building BESS without hvac They are significantly safer in regards to fires and also even more environmentally friendly One data point is that CATL has 120,000 engineers, Tesla has 80,000 total employees We are witnessing a new generation of battery tech, that will help change the cost dynamics of cars and BESS > On Dec 3, 2025, at 9:52 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > A person sent me the attached article on Sodium Ion batteries as a competitor to Lithium. I thought it might be of interest to the WRENCHES folks. Chris > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401) 447-5773 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 10:50:50 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2025 09:50:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sodium Ion vs Lithium Article In-Reply-To: <71066AF7-51AE-4C3D-8D5E-A914E28A0AB0@gmail.com> References: <71066AF7-51AE-4C3D-8D5E-A914E28A0AB0@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've heard that the voltage range of the available SI batteries is very wide, which might make their use with current inverters in our field difficult. Sort of like the Aquion battery. On Thu, Dec 4, 2025 at 9:00 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Christopher > > I ve been following SIB for quite a while. And while it’s still early days > the progress has been staggering. > > According to CATL SIB are in production at roughly $20 kWh with expected > $10 in less than a year. > They are producing cars in China with SIB. BYD is also producing them. > > Current energy density is about 175 and is going up. > Cycle life is 10-20,000 > C rates are much higher than LFP which is one reason they are being used > in cars > Temperature range is dramatically higher than LFP meaning no HVAC is > needed in almost all applications > Efficiency seems to be a bit lower than LFP but the lack of hvac means you > do get some of that back. There is a company in the US that is building > BESS without hvac > They are significantly safer in regards to fires and also even more > environmentally friendly > > One data point is that CATL has 120,000 engineers, Tesla has 80,000 total > employees > > We are witnessing a new generation of battery tech, that will help change > the cost dynamics of cars and BESS > > > > > > > > On Dec 3, 2025, at 9:52 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > A person sent me the attached article on Sodium Ion batteries as a > competitor to Lithium. I thought it might be of interest to the WRENCHES > folks. Chris > > > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE > > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > > (401) 447-5773 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Dec 4 11:52:32 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2025 16:52:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Firmware XW Pro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’d zero in on the firmware first. Bad wiring can cause issues, but if it’s actually letting the smoke out of electronics, pretty high chance it’s the bad firmware that Schneider knows all about but refused to address. If it’s got 2.04 firmware get rid of it. Downgrade to 1.11. It’s the only stable software for that system IMO. https://www.se.com/us/en/product-range/66297-xw-pro/#software-and-firmware My only other comment is I am seeing best client satisfaction by un-installing anything Scheider made post 2019 and replacing it with a better brand that just works reliably and consistently. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2025 5:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Mac Lewis Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Firmware XW Pro Hello Wrenches, I am visiting a site with an XW Pro and it sounds like it's burning up appliances. This system was installed by neighbors so it may be a wiring problem but I also wonder if it may have the bad firmware that was doing this (generator interaction was the problem I think). Can anyone remind me of the proper firmware that we should run for an off-grid system with the XW Pro? How to get it? And any other nuances that I should be aware of? Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 12:18:55 2025 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2025 10:18:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Firmware XW Pro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kevin, Can you elaborate on some of the issues you’ve sen with XW Pro off grid and with the >V2.04 firmware versions? I have a few XW Pro units out there fully off-grid running newer firmware and I haven’t had any trouble— yet. Thanks, -Luke Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 719.588.3044 sgsrenewables at gmail.com > On Dec 4, 2025, at 9:52 AM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I’d zero in on the firmware first. Bad wiring can cause issues, but if it’s actually letting the smoke out of electronics, pretty high chance it’s the bad firmware that Schneider knows all about but refused to address. > > If it’s got 2.04 firmware get rid of it. Downgrade to 1.11. It’s the only stable software for that system IMO. > > https://www.se.com/us/en/product-range/66297-xw-pro/#software-and-firmware > > My only other comment is I am seeing best client satisfaction by un-installing anything Scheider made post 2019 and replacing it with a better brand that just works reliably and consistently. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2025 5:56 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Mac Lewis > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Firmware XW Pro > > Hello Wrenches, > > I am visiting a site with an XW Pro and it sounds like it's burning up appliances. This system was installed by neighbors so it may be a wiring problem but I also wonder if it may have the bad firmware that was doing this (generator interaction was the problem I think). > > Can anyone remind me of the proper firmware that we should run for an off-grid system with the XW Pro? How to get it? And any other nuances that I should be aware of? > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Thu Dec 4 13:15:41 2025 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2025 18:15:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Firmware XW Pro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Most of us with enough experience (scar tissue) using the PRO series schneider products know the firmware is problematic and Schneider managed to build in a laundry list of issues that the plus series never had. That being said, although Shneider PRO product firmware is an easy target. I would definitely check the wiring first. Particularly with DIY installations improper Ground and neutral connections are a common cause for the failures you are describing. Personally, I have had my share of problems with the PRO series Scheider products, but have never seen any equipment damage. I have however seen numerous instances of installer error particularly with the previously mentioned Neutral and ground circuits. Common mistakes are multiple Neutral to ground bonding points rather than just one and only one. Improperly or undersized, or even missing Neutral conductors. I have even seen a "hot" wire used as a neutral, and shockingly the 120 Volt devices that were being supplied with 240 Volts managed to survive for a few weeks. For sure check all the onsite wiring before diving into inverter firmware issues. Pieter Huebner Project Manager Off Grid Enterprises ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Luke Christy via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2025 11:18 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Luke Christy Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Firmware XW Pro Kevin, Can you elaborate on some of the issues you’ve sen with XW Pro off grid and with the >V2.04 firmware versions? I have a few XW Pro units out there fully off-grid running newer firmware and I haven’t had any trouble— yet. Thanks, -Luke Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 719.588.3044 sgsrenewables at gmail.com On Dec 4, 2025, at 9:52 AM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: I’d zero in on the firmware first. Bad wiring can cause issues, but if it’s actually letting the smoke out of electronics, pretty high chance it’s the bad firmware that Schneider knows all about but refused to address. If it’s got 2.04 firmware get rid of it. Downgrade to 1.11. It’s the only stable software for that system IMO. https://www.se.com/us/en/product-range/66297-xw-pro/#software-and-firmware My only other comment is I am seeing best client satisfaction by un-installing anything Scheider made post 2019 and replacing it with a better brand that just works reliably and consistently. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2025 5:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Mac Lewis Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Firmware XW Pro Hello Wrenches, I am visiting a site with an XW Pro and it sounds like it's burning up appliances. This system was installed by neighbors so it may be a wiring problem but I also wonder if it may have the bad firmware that was doing this (generator interaction was the problem I think). Can anyone remind me of the proper firmware that we should run for an off-grid system with the XW Pro? How to get it? And any other nuances that I should be aware of? Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Dec 4 15:06:57 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2025 12:06:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Firmware XW Pro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All in the FW release notes on the Schneider web site. --- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-12-04 5:56 am, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I am visiting a site with an XW Pro and it sounds like it's burning up > appliances. This system was installed by neighbors so it may be a > wiring problem but I also wonder if it may have the bad firmware that > was doing this (generator interaction was the problem I think). > > Can anyone remind me of the proper firmware that we should run for an > off-grid system with the XW Pro? How to get it? And any other nuances > that I should be aware of? > > Thanks in advance! > -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Thu Dec 4 16:14:46 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2025 13:14:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sodium Ion vs Lithium Article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a small sodium Ion battery that I built last February and its voltage is a bit wider than LFP or LTO, but not nearly as bad as Nickle Iron, and not as bad as aquion either. Probably not even as bad as flooded lead acid honestly. So, any inverter than can handle flooded lead acid should be okay with them from what I've seen from my little 20AH test battery. When I built mine, prices were still a bit higher for Sodium ion compared to LFP cells, and 20Ah was the largest cylindrical cell I could even get. I think I saw some larger prismatics available now, can't remember the price though. And I have seen a few commercial batteries in addition to cells. Bluetti has a power station using sodium ion now. Zeke Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2025 09:50:50 -0600 From: Bradley Bassett To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I've heard that the voltage range of the available SI batteries is very wide, which might make their use with current inverters in our field difficult. Sort of like the Aquion battery. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Dec 4 17:24:37 2025 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2025 14:24:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Ion BMU issue request Message-ID: <84428439-1ab0-449d-ab1e-397193a27656@sindelarsolar.com> I've been retired now for a bit less than three years. I've not kept up much with the twists and turns of the solar coaster, except for staying on the Wrenches list as mostly a lurker. In October, I received the message from Blue Planet Energy to Blue Planet dealers about the impending unavailability of replacement BMUs for Blue Ion home-scale battery systems, and offering me the opportunity to buy spare BMUs for my customers for the closeout price of $1,000 each. After communicating with my former sales rep at Blue Planet, I sent BPE's message on to my seven former clients who purchased Blue Ion LiFP battery systems, all but one of which went in as upgrades to existing off grid systems. I included a cover message explaining what this is about but without encouragement for or against buying a spare BMU. To the best of my knowledge, these Blue Ion systems have performed well, and I have heard of no BMU troubles. Of course, they'll ask me what I would do, which is why I'm posting here. Have you had any Blue Ion battery or BMU failures? If so, how many systems have you installed, and how many failures have you had? What failed, and what did you do to resolve the issue? If you replaced a BMU, was the process straightforward, and were you given a complete set of documentation with the unit? Was the factory warranty process honored? On a related track, how have you responded to Blue Planet's offer? Does it come across as a valid solution? Have you bought one or more spare BMUs? How are you supporting your Blue Ion customers going forward? Have you received support of any kind from Blue Planet? And finally the wild card questions: Is anyone considering investing in a stock of BPE BMUs for private out-of-warranty dealer support? And has anyone here explored adapting the BMU from another LiFP battery or BMU manufacturer? I'd like to spark a discussion here, so that all of us who installed Blue Ion systems may offer better informed advice to our customers (and to my former customers). Thanks, Allan Sindelar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Mon Dec 8 10:33:04 2025 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2025 08:33:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Ion BMU issue request In-Reply-To: <84428439-1ab0-449d-ab1e-397193a27656@sindelarsolar.com> References: <84428439-1ab0-449d-ab1e-397193a27656@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Good Morning, Allan, I'll share my limited insight in hopes it proves valuable to you. Have you had any Blue Ion battery or BMU failures? If so, how many systems > have you installed, and how many failures have you had? What failed, and > what did you do to resolve the issue? If you replaced a BMU, was the > process straightforward, and were you given a complete set of documentation > with the unit? Was the factory warranty process honored? > We have nine sites with Blue Ion installed. These range in size from a single battery module up to 48 modules. They are mated to a range of chargers and inverters from Outback, Magnum, Midnite, Schneider, and Sol-Ark. We have only experienced an issue at a single site and that was a battery module. Blue Ion was extremely attentive from a customer service perspective. They mailed problem-specific testing equipment along with the RMA'ed parts, provided live customer-support during the testing, and provided return shipping. All was covered by warranty (I do not know if there was a labor reimbursement). On a related track, how have you responded to Blue Planet's offer? Does it > come across as a valid solution? Have you bought one or more spare BMUs? > How are you supporting your Blue Ion customers going forward? Have you > received support of any kind from Blue Planet? > Our company took the same approach you did, sending an email to our customer base informing them to consider purchasing a back up BMU. To the best of my knowledge only one of our customers has opted to purchase a back-up and they are an energy utility with two large, high-consequence systems that easily warrants the ROI. We as a company are leaning toward not purchasing one to "have in stock". Sincerely, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] Sam Haraldson Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Dec 8 17:16:42 2025 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2025 22:16:42 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Firmware XW Pro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Luke, It’s a long story, and I have posted previously about it. Yes bad wiring can cause issues, but in my experience we eliminated that. Tech support had me chasing all over for weeks the first time this came up. Verified every single connection. Found the odd connection that wasn’t perfectly torqued but otherwise wiring was fine. I don’t think they were aware of the issue at that point. They certainly are today. The issue with 2.04 firmware manifests while under generator charging. Lights flickering, you can hear the XW groaning really hard, and if you scope it you may see THD very high. Some units it would charge ok if you could ignore all the light flicker, other units it would charge for a couple minutes then kick the charger out, to repeat. One client with a brand new home I did a follow up site visit and upgraded all firmware, before I was aware of this issue. Client called me back a week later – walked into his new, freshly painted house and it smelled like burned plastic. Client had noticed the lights flickering but let it continue for days before advising. We had to replace his LED light controllers as well as the alarm panel. Replaced inverter, ensured the 1.11 firmware installed before inverter put into service, and no more issues. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Luke Christy via RE-wrenches Sent: December-04-25 9:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Luke Christy Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Firmware XW Pro Kevin, Can you elaborate on some of the issues you’ve sen with XW Pro off grid and with the >V2.04 firmware versions? I have a few XW Pro units out there fully off-grid running newer firmware and I haven’t had any trouble— yet. Thanks, -Luke Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 719.588.3044 sgsrenewables at gmail.com On Dec 4, 2025, at 9:52 AM, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches > wrote: I’d zero in on the firmware first. Bad wiring can cause issues, but if it’s actually letting the smoke out of electronics, pretty high chance it’s the bad firmware that Schneider knows all about but refused to address. If it’s got 2.04 firmware get rid of it. Downgrade to 1.11. It’s the only stable software for that system IMO. https://www.se.com/us/en/product-range/66297-xw-pro/#software-and-firmware My only other comment is I am seeing best client satisfaction by un-installing anything Scheider made post 2019 and replacing it with a better brand that just works reliably and consistently. Kevin From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2025 5:56 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Mac Lewis > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Firmware XW Pro Hello Wrenches, I am visiting a site with an XW Pro and it sounds like it's burning up appliances. This system was installed by neighbors so it may be a wiring problem but I also wonder if it may have the bad firmware that was doing this (generator interaction was the problem I think). Can anyone remind me of the proper firmware that we should run for an off-grid system with the XW Pro? How to get it? And any other nuances that I should be aware of? Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mark at hurshtown.com Mon Dec 8 10:36:10 2025 From: mark at hurshtown.com (Mark Downing) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2025 15:36:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Ion BMU issue request In-Reply-To: References: <84428439-1ab0-449d-ab1e-397193a27656@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: All detailed in here ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, December 8, 2025 10:33 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Sam Haraldson Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Blue Ion BMU issue request Good Morning, Allan, I'll share my limited insight in hopes it proves valuable to you. Have you had any Blue Ion battery or BMU failures? If so, how many systems have you installed, and how many failures have you had? What failed, and what did you do to resolve the issue? If you replaced a BMU, was the process straightforward, and were you given a complete set of documentation with the unit? Was the factory warranty process honored? We have nine sites with Blue Ion installed. These range in size from a single battery module up to 48 modules. They are mated to a range of chargers and inverters from Outback, Magnum, Midnite, Schneider, and Sol-Ark. We have only experienced an issue at a single site and that was a battery module. Blue Ion was extremely attentive from a customer service perspective. They mailed problem-specific testing equipment along with the RMA'ed parts, provided live customer-support during the testing, and provided return shipping. All was covered by warranty (I do not know if there was a labor reimbursement). On a related track, how have you responded to Blue Planet's offer? Does it come across as a valid solution? Have you bought one or more spare BMUs? How are you supporting your Blue Ion customers going forward? Have you received support of any kind from Blue Planet? Our company took the same approach you did, sending an email to our customer base informing them to consider purchasing a back up BMU. To the best of my knowledge only one of our customers has opted to purchase a back-up and they are an energy utility with two large, high-consequence systems that easily warrants the ROI. We as a company are leaning toward not purchasing one to "have in stock". Sincerely, Sam [OnSite Energy] Sam Haraldson Operations Specialist (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: HURSHTOWN PROPOSAL.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 54723 bytes Desc: HURSHTOWN PROPOSAL.pdf URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Dec 11 10:39:13 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 10:39:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disable refloat Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, We have a rental property with two, stacked VFX 3524 inverters. In the winter the batteries don't get an adequate solar charge. I would like to have the batteries get a bulk charge when the voltage drops to 24 volts, but it keeps hitting refloat. How do I disable refloat? Can I just set the refloat time to zero? Thank you, Drake -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 10:54:22 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 07:54:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disable refloat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8FF0C88A-E28F-453E-B32E-4C01816BE839@gmail.com> Hi drake. You’re talking about the inverters charging the battereis, meaning this is a grid connected system? Do you have a mate3/s or 1? Jay > On Dec 11, 2025, at 7:39 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hello Wrenches, > > We have a rental property with two, stacked VFX 3524 inverters. In the winter the batteries don't get an adequate solar charge. I would like to have the batteries get a bulk charge when the voltage drops to 24 volts, but it keeps hitting refloat. > > How do I disable refloat? Can I just set the refloat time to zero? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From mick at abrahamsolar.com Thu Dec 11 11:46:24 2025 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 09:46:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG 16H battery for $2750 Any suggestions? Message-ID: Hello, Mechanix ~ A friend/customer wants to add this battery to his SolarEdge SE7600H-US grid tie setup. I've observed unhappy Mechanix on Wrenches regarding LG batteries in prior times, but what about this 2025 offering? "The discount is dramatic, but would the results be traumatic?" The client is chompin' the bit; thanks in advance. The Wrench List is The Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Thu Dec 11 11:58:50 2025 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 09:58:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG 16H battery for $2750 Any suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Me again, sorry. My friend has a hot tub that hits a high crest of wattage demand when it starts up. He gets a monthly demand charge from the public utility & that's what first motivated him to want the battery. IDK if a special configuration is required (or possible) to limit the grid demand by drawing from battery power instead. Let's see... peak shaving is perhaps the correct term for what he wants to do, and I don't know if that's automatically baked into how this battery works. Thanks again, Wrenches On Thu, Dec 11, 2025 at 9:46 AM Mick Abraham wrote: > Hello, Mechanix ~ A friend/customer wants to add this battery to his > SolarEdge SE7600H-US grid tie setup. > I've observed unhappy Mechanix on Wrenches regarding LG batteries in prior > times, but what about this 2025 offering? > > "The discount is dramatic, but would the results be traumatic?" The client > doesn't want to miss the discount; thanks in advance. > > The Wrench List is The Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Dec 11 13:24:12 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2025 13:24:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG 16H battery for $2750 Any suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mick, Is the inverter an old Storedge 7600 using disastrous LG chem's or a new 7600 home hub inverter? Regardless, the only battery the old Storedge (or the newer 7600 Solaredge home hub inverter) is approved for now is the Solaredge 10kwh Home battery. There is probably no way to get a non-SE approved bank to operate in closed loop fashion. I have learned not to install or upgrade existing Solaredge with even their own storage brand(just too many hassles in my experience). AC-coupling to an AIO inverter is preferable as an upgrade. Fortress inverter / battery backup works well when AC coupling existing grid-tie SE systems. And is the peak kw of the hot tub? On Thu, Dec 11, 2025 at 11:49 AM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello, Mechanix ~ A friend/customer wants to add this battery to his > SolarEdge SE7600H-US grid tie setup. > I've observed unhappy Mechanix on Wrenches regarding LG batteries in prior > times, but what about this 2025 offering? > > "The discount is dramatic, but would the results be traumatic?" The client > is chompin' the bit; thanks in advance. > > The Wrench List is The Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 09:25:49 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 06:25:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge/LG Message-ID: Wrenches, I'm in unfamiliar territory here. I got a call from someone who has a Solaredge/LG Chem system. Here is what they are saying: Solomon says our solar panels are charging the LG battery but somewhere there is no connection from the LG battery to power our house when we need the battery back up. When there is a power outage we have no back up power to the house. When the system was first installed we got maybe 30 minutes of back up power once and then after that it was dead, and it just stopped charging or giving us any back up power at all. The LG battery was recalled and we assumed that was why it hadn’t worked- we had it replaced about two years ago and we can see that it is getting charged by our panels but we do not get any back up power to the house when there is a power outage. I have zero experience with either Solaredge or LG and could use some advise to know where to start or what to look for when I go out to troubleshoot. Thanks, Michael -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Dec 12 09:57:03 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 09:57:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge/LG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It must be a Storedge inverter, 7600 watt. I would ask them for online access (if they have it) so you can see what if any error messages are present, and what the SOC of the LG truly is, etc. If the installer has abandoned it (they are most likely the administrator), you will need the customer's credentials or get the site transferred to yourself, which requires paperwork. Have they any photos of the inverter display when it is supposedly charging? The battery itself displays a charging icon also. You can find clues by scrolling through the LCD display when onsite. About the only simple thing it could be, if everything else is OK, is the AC bypass switch in the DC disconnect set to pass grid AC directly to the loads. For normal operation it should be in the left-most position, right-most for AC passthrough. On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 9:29 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > I'm in unfamiliar territory here. I got a call from someone who has a > Solaredge/LG Chem system. Here is what they are saying: > > Solomon says our solar panels are charging the LG battery but somewhere > there is no connection from the LG battery to power our house when we need > the battery back up. When there is a power outage we have no back up power > to the house. When the system was first installed we got maybe 30 minutes > of back up power once and then after that it was dead, and it just stopped > charging or giving us any back up power at all. > > The LG battery was recalled and we assumed that was why it hadn’t worked- > we had it replaced about two years ago and we can see that it is getting > charged by our panels but we do not get any back up power to the house when > there is a power outage. > > I have zero experience with either Solaredge or LG and could use some > advise to know where to start or what to look for when I go out to > troubleshoot. > > Thanks, > Michael > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Dec 12 10:58:48 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 10:58:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disable refloat In-Reply-To: <8FF0C88A-E28F-453E-B32E-4C01816BE839@gmail.com> References: <8FF0C88A-E28F-453E-B32E-4C01816BE839@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, The system feeds the grid through an SMA H-FUS inverter. The Outbacks are off grid inverters, but are AC coupled to the batteries to provide power when the grid is down. The inverters monitor the batteries and go into REFLOAT when the batteries hit 25 volts. I would like the inverters to go strait into the ABSORB cycle instead of going to REFLOAT. The grid tie came after the the Outbacks were already in as a backup system. Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-12-11 10:54, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi drake. > > You're talking about the inverters charging the battereis, meaning > this is a grid connected system? > > Do you have a mate3/s or 1? > > Jay > >> On Dec 11, 2025, at 7:39 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> We have a rental property with two, stacked VFX 3524 inverters. In the >> winter the batteries don't get an adequate solar charge. I would like >> to have the batteries get a bulk charge when the voltage drops to 24 >> volts, but it keeps hitting refloat. >> >> How do I disable refloat? Can I just set the refloat time to zero? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> -- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Dec 12 11:01:00 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 11:01:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disable refloat In-Reply-To: References: <8FF0C88A-E28F-453E-B32E-4C01816BE839@gmail.com> Message-ID: P.S. The Mate is the old oval variety. --- On 2025-12-12 10:58, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Jay, > > The system feeds the grid through an SMA H-FUS inverter. The Outbacks > are off grid inverters, but are AC coupled to the batteries to provide > power when the grid is down. > > The inverters monitor the batteries and go into REFLOAT when the > batteries hit 25 volts. I would like the inverters to go strait into > the ABSORB cycle instead of going to REFLOAT. > > The grid tie came after the the Outbacks were already in as a backup > system. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2025-12-11 10:54, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi drake. > > You're talking about the inverters charging the battereis, meaning > this is a grid connected system? > > Do you have a mate3/s or 1? > > Jay > > On Dec 11, 2025, at 7:39 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > We have a rental property with two, stacked VFX 3524 inverters. In the > winter the batteries don't get an adequate solar charge. I would like > to have the batteries get a bulk charge when the voltage drops to 24 > volts, but it keeps hitting refloat. > > How do I disable refloat? Can I just set the refloat time to zero? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Dec 12 11:10:56 2025 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 09:10:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disable refloat In-Reply-To: References: <8FF0C88A-E28F-453E-B32E-4C01816BE839@gmail.com> Message-ID: <69CFCA3A-DD23-48CB-98E0-CE5015FA7CD7@starlightsolar.com> Hello Drake, Absorption is the phase where voltage remains constant. Until the Absorb voltage value is achieved, you will be bulk charging. You can only force Float or Bulk. Larry Crutcher Starlight Power Systems On Dec 12, 2025, at 8:58 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi Jay, The system feeds the grid through an SMA H-FUS inverter. The Outbacks are off grid inverters, but are AC coupled to the batteries to provide power when the grid is down. The inverters monitor the batteries and go into REFLOAT when the batteries hit 25 volts. I would like the inverters to go strait into the ABSORB cycle instead of going to REFLOAT. The grid tie came after the the Outbacks were already in as a backup system. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2025-12-11 10:54, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi drake. > > You’re talking about the inverters charging the battereis, meaning > this is a grid connected system? > > Do you have a mate3/s or 1? > > Jay > >> On Dec 11, 2025, at 7:39 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> We have a rental property with two, stacked VFX 3524 inverters. In the winter the batteries don't get an adequate solar charge. I would like to have the batteries get a bulk charge when the voltage drops to 24 volts, but it keeps hitting refloat. >> >> How do I disable refloat? Can I just set the refloat time to zero? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> -- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Dec 12 11:24:10 2025 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 09:24:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disable refloat In-Reply-To: <69CFCA3A-DD23-48CB-98E0-CE5015FA7CD7@starlightsolar.com> References: <8FF0C88A-E28F-453E-B32E-4C01816BE839@gmail.com> <69CFCA3A-DD23-48CB-98E0-CE5015FA7CD7@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <5D6C9550-3A32-4EA5-8E5C-AB4848C03295@starlightsolar.com> Have you set up “Rebulk Voltage” in the advanced menu? On Dec 12, 2025, at 9:10 AM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: Hello Drake, Absorption is the phase where voltage remains constant. Until the Absorb voltage value is achieved, you will be bulk charging. You can only force Float or Bulk. Larry Crutcher Starlight Power Systems On Dec 12, 2025, at 8:58 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi Jay, The system feeds the grid through an SMA H-FUS inverter. The Outbacks are off grid inverters, but are AC coupled to the batteries to provide power when the grid is down. The inverters monitor the batteries and go into REFLOAT when the batteries hit 25 volts. I would like the inverters to go strait into the ABSORB cycle instead of going to REFLOAT. The grid tie came after the the Outbacks were already in as a backup system. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2025-12-11 10:54, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi drake. > > You’re talking about the inverters charging the battereis, meaning > this is a grid connected system? > > Do you have a mate3/s or 1? > > Jay > >> On Dec 11, 2025, at 7:39 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> We have a rental property with two, stacked VFX 3524 inverters. In the winter the batteries don't get an adequate solar charge. I would like to have the batteries get a bulk charge when the voltage drops to 24 volts, but it keeps hitting refloat. >> >> How do I disable refloat? Can I just set the refloat time to zero? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> -- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Dec 12 11:26:19 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 08:26:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disable refloat In-Reply-To: <69CFCA3A-DD23-48CB-98E0-CE5015FA7CD7@starlightsolar.com> References: <8FF0C88A-E28F-453E-B32E-4C01816BE839@gmail.com> <69CFCA3A-DD23-48CB-98E0-CE5015FA7CD7@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: You could manually set it to RE-Bulk... But you are looking for something automatic... To do that, you'd need to use refloat and set the float voltage as high as it goes. It won't be the full bulk voltage, but it might get you there. Another way is to use the genalert function... But it can take time to get it right. Genalert On V 24V Genalert delay 5-10 min Genalert Off V Target Absorb Voltage Genalert Off Delay Should be Absorb Timer... It'll connect to the input VAC, charge the battery bank, and then, after the gen alert-off delay is met, it'll disconnect and go back to using the battery. *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 8:15 AM Starlight via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Drake, > Absorption is the phase where voltage remains constant. Until the Absorb > voltage value is achieved, you will be bulk charging. You can only force > Float or Bulk. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Power Systems > > > > > > > On Dec 12, 2025, at 8:58 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > The system feeds the grid through an SMA H-FUS inverter. The Outbacks are > off grid inverters, but are AC coupled to the batteries to provide power > when the grid is down. > > The inverters monitor the batteries and go into REFLOAT when the batteries > hit 25 volts. I would like the inverters to go strait into the ABSORB cycle > instead of going to REFLOAT. > > The grid tie came after the the Outbacks were already in as a backup > system. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > > --- > > > > On 2025-12-11 10:54, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi drake. > > You’re talking about the inverters charging the battereis, meaning > this is a grid connected system? > > Do you have a mate3/s or 1? > > Jay > > On Dec 11, 2025, at 7:39 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > Hello Wrenches, > > We have a rental property with two, stacked VFX 3524 inverters. In the > winter the batteries don't get an adequate solar charge. I would like to > have the batteries get a bulk charge when the voltage drops to 24 volts, > but it keeps hitting refloat. > > How do I disable refloat? Can I just set the refloat time to zero? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Dec 12 11:28:44 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 08:28:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disable refloat In-Reply-To: <5D6C9550-3A32-4EA5-8E5C-AB4848C03295@starlightsolar.com> References: <8FF0C88A-E28F-453E-B32E-4C01816BE839@gmail.com> <69CFCA3A-DD23-48CB-98E0-CE5015FA7CD7@starlightsolar.com> <5D6C9550-3A32-4EA5-8E5C-AB4848C03295@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: If I remember correctly, Rebulk Voltage is in the "R" or GTFX units. Not the standard VFX or FXs... But it's been a long time... It should be in the charge controllers if they're FM60s or 80s. *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 8:26 AM Starlight via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Have you set up “Rebulk Voltage” in the advanced menu? > > > > On Dec 12, 2025, at 9:10 AM, Starlight via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hello Drake, > Absorption is the phase where voltage remains constant. Until the Absorb > voltage value is achieved, you will be bulk charging. You can only force > Float or Bulk. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Power Systems > > > > > > > On Dec 12, 2025, at 8:58 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > The system feeds the grid through an SMA H-FUS inverter. The Outbacks are > off grid inverters, but are AC coupled to the batteries to provide power > when the grid is down. > > The inverters monitor the batteries and go into REFLOAT when the batteries > hit 25 volts. I would like the inverters to go strait into the ABSORB cycle > instead of going to REFLOAT. > > The grid tie came after the the Outbacks were already in as a backup > system. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > > --- > > > > On 2025-12-11 10:54, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi drake. > > You’re talking about the inverters charging the battereis, meaning > this is a grid connected system? > > Do you have a mate3/s or 1? > > Jay > > On Dec 11, 2025, at 7:39 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > Hello Wrenches, > > We have a rental property with two, stacked VFX 3524 inverters. In the > winter the batteries don't get an adequate solar charge. I would like to > have the batteries get a bulk charge when the voltage drops to 24 volts, > but it keeps hitting refloat. > > How do I disable refloat? Can I just set the refloat time to zero? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david2coale at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 13:18:55 2025 From: david2coale at gmail.com (David Coale) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 10:18:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm In-Reply-To: References: <793CB494-CA4A-4CE4-9CDC-A03A462DF72D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Wrenchers, I have a client with an old off-grid Trace system and he is having trouble with the batteries. He has HUP Solar One FLA batteries that are about 4 years old, so they should be in good shape. The last set lasted almost 20 years with a fair amount of abuse. Here is he history and what I think is going on. 7/21 they got new batteries after about 19 years of use. 7/22 I get a call saying the batteries are not charging up all the way. When I check out the system, the batteries needed cleaning, and I found three low cells, and the charger settings were back to default, not set high enough to charge the batteries all the way (it’s always multiple problems). The client (now a new renter, new to the system) said he was filing the batteries once a month and experienced some overflowing when the batteries were charged up. I cleaned things up, reset the charging parameters and set up an equalizing charge to even out the cells. Hopefully this will fix things. 11/25. The client calls and said the batteries don’t charge up all the way and he is running the generator a lot and worried about getting though the wintertime. When I check things out, there are three bad cells and there is soda on the batteries. It is hard to get a good voltage readings because of the soda. Most of the cells are reading 2.1 volts under about a 40 amp load. Yesterday I check things out, and all the cells are reading between 1.93 to 1.98 under a 40 amp load in the morning, and I don’t find any bad cells. The charging voltage is never going over about 52 volts so the system is never getting fully charged up. The charge setting look OK, so not sure what is going on. This is acting like an old battery pack but these batteries are relatively new. My guess at this point is that maybe the batteries lost acid with the overflowing event and lost capacity. Maybe adding acid back in would bring them back up to working order. The SG measured at 1.150 or less. At this point the client (renter) has had enough of these battery problems and is wondering every morning if the batteries will last long enough to until the sun comes up. The renter is pushing for a replacement LFP battery, but there should be lots of life left in this battery pack. Let me know what you all think. Thanks, David From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 13:31:13 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 10:31:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm In-Reply-To: References: <793CB494-CA4A-4CE4-9CDC-A03A462DF72D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Chronic undercharging, electrolyte dilution, lack of informed equalization, and adding water without knowledge of the how’s, whys, and when’s will kill those batteries in no time. I’ve pulled out to many of those heavy bastards to count, most of them at a fresh young age because the installer didn’t educate the clients properly. On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 10:21 AM David Coale via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenchers, > > I have a client with an old off-grid Trace system and he is having trouble > with the batteries. He has HUP Solar One FLA batteries that are about 4 > years old, so they should be in good shape. The last set lasted almost 20 > years with a fair amount of abuse. > > Here is he history and what I think is going on. 7/21 they got new > batteries after about 19 years of use. > > 7/22 I get a call saying the batteries are not charging up all the way. > When I check out the system, the batteries needed cleaning, and I found > three low cells, and the charger settings were back to default, not set > high enough to charge the batteries all the way (it’s always multiple > problems). The client (now a new renter, new to the system) said he was > filing the batteries once a month and experienced some overflowing when the > batteries were charged up. > > I cleaned things up, reset the charging parameters and set up an > equalizing charge to even out the cells. Hopefully this will fix things. > > 11/25. The client calls and said the batteries don’t charge up all the way > and he is running the generator a lot and worried about getting though the > wintertime. > When I check things out, there are three bad cells and there is soda on > the batteries. It is hard to get a good voltage readings because of the > soda. Most of the cells are reading 2.1 volts under about a 40 amp load. > > Yesterday I check things out, and all the cells are reading between 1.93 > to 1.98 under a 40 amp load in the morning, and I don’t find any bad > cells. The charging voltage is never going over about 52 volts so the > system is never getting fully charged up. The charge setting look OK, so > not sure what is going on. This is acting like an old battery pack but > these batteries are relatively new. > > My guess at this point is that maybe the batteries lost acid with the > overflowing event and lost capacity. Maybe adding acid back in would bring > them back up to working order. The SG measured at 1.150 or less. > > At this point the client (renter) has had enough of these battery problems > and is wondering every morning if the batteries will last long enough to > until the sun comes up. The renter is pushing for a replacement LFP > battery, but there should be lots of life left in this battery pack. > > Let me know what you all think. > > Thanks, > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Dec 12 13:35:58 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 10:35:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm In-Reply-To: References: <793CB494-CA4A-4CE4-9CDC-A03A462DF72D@gmail.com> Message-ID: The SW series inverters don't have non-volatile memory, so if the renter discharges the battery below the low-voltage point, all settings will be reset to default. That will definitely cause charging issues. If they were overfilling the batteries, this would push sulfate out of the battery, diluting the acid mix and lowering overall capacity. You can try adding more back, but it will require a lot of premixed acid. It might help to drain 1/2 out and add back premixed 1.265-1.280 acid to correct. If the sulfate levels are already low and there is mostly just water in the battery, corrosion can occur within weeks, resulting in permanent damage. Also, if you add too much or the sulfate has precipitated on the plates, this will increase the sulfate in the battery and lead to a significant loss of overall capacity. My guess... is this battery is done for... You can try the above, but you'll likely spend a lot of time adjusting electrolyte levels and many hours of cycle charging to recover. Even if you recover to some capacity, the SGs will always be "All over the place," and the bank will likely remain questionable until they are replaced. In the end, the "Renter" probably killed these due to lack of interest/education... Steve Higgins. On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 10:21 AM David Coale via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenchers, > > I have a client with an old off-grid Trace system and he is having trouble > with the batteries. He has HUP Solar One FLA batteries that are about 4 > years old, so they should be in good shape. The last set lasted almost 20 > years with a fair amount of abuse. > > Here is he history and what I think is going on. 7/21 they got new > batteries after about 19 years of use. > > 7/22 I get a call saying the batteries are not charging up all the way. > When I check out the system, the batteries needed cleaning, and I found > three low cells, and the charger settings were back to default, not set > high enough to charge the batteries all the way (it’s always multiple > problems). The client (now a new renter, new to the system) said he was > filing the batteries once a month and experienced some overflowing when the > batteries were charged up. > > I cleaned things up, reset the charging parameters and set up an > equalizing charge to even out the cells. Hopefully this will fix things. > > 11/25. The client calls and said the batteries don’t charge up all the way > and he is running the generator a lot and worried about getting though the > wintertime. > When I check things out, there are three bad cells and there is soda on > the batteries. It is hard to get a good voltage readings because of the > soda. Most of the cells are reading 2.1 volts under about a 40 amp load. > > Yesterday I check things out, and all the cells are reading between 1.93 > to 1.98 under a 40 amp load in the morning, and I don’t find any bad > cells. The charging voltage is never going over about 52 volts so the > system is never getting fully charged up. The charge setting look OK, so > not sure what is going on. This is acting like an old battery pack but > these batteries are relatively new. > > My guess at this point is that maybe the batteries lost acid with the > overflowing event and lost capacity. Maybe adding acid back in would bring > them back up to working order. The SG measured at 1.150 or less. > > At this point the client (renter) has had enough of these battery problems > and is wondering every morning if the batteries will last long enough to > until the sun comes up. The renter is pushing for a replacement LFP > battery, but there should be lots of life left in this battery pack. > > Let me know what you all think. > > Thanks, > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Dec 12 13:56:49 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 11:56:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm In-Reply-To: References: <793CB494-CA4A-4CE4-9CDC-A03A462DF72D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <28f571b2-622f-41c4-8c66-1378ab556592@solarray.com> As a long time HUP dealer,  I've dealt with stuff like that for quite a while.  FYI, HUPs are no longer being made, thanks to the tariffs. As Steve mentioned, renters are Not the best off grid customers. They really don't understand the system, and how to properly maintain it.  My guess is they have a bunch of phantom loads, extra junk plugged in, and the system is never reaching full charge.  2nd, as noted, they are over filling the water.  I have several customers that get fixated on filling, and forget to check SG, and actually fully charge the batteries too.  You didn't mention some key info: battery size, or array size.  If its a bigger HUP, it could take over a week with no loads to come back up.  HUPs have a minimum charge rate requirement that is very important in this situation. So, based on the age, this should be recoverable.  It will take some extreme EQing for possibly a couple of days.  I'd EQ at 61 v for 2 hours.  Monitor temperature and don't let the batteries exceed 95F.  Check SG.  If you're not up to 1.265 on the lowest cell, EQ again.  Rinse/ repeat, until you get to 1.265.  Then this renter may need to go on an energy diet too, so this doesn't happen again.  I've had so many renters ruin good systems that worked for the original owners for decades.  They just leave stuff on, and it never comes to full charge. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 12/12/2025 11:35 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > The SW series inverters don't have non-volatile memory, so if the > renter discharges the battery below the low-voltage point, all > settings will be reset to default.   That will definitely cause > charging issues. > > If they were overfilling the batteries, this would push sulfate out of > the battery, diluting the acid mix and lowering overall capacity.  >  You can try adding more back, but it will require a lot of premixed > acid. It might help to drain 1/2 out and add back premixed 1.265-1.280 > acid to correct. If the sulfate levels are already low and there is > mostly just water in the battery, corrosion can occur within weeks, > resulting in permanent damage. > > Also, if you add too much or the sulfate has precipitated on the > plates, this will increase the sulfate in the battery and lead to a > significant loss of overall capacity. > > My guess... is this battery is done for... You can try the above, but > you'll likely spend a lot of time adjusting electrolyte levels and > many hours of cycle charging to recover.  Even if you recover to some > capacity, the SGs will always be "All over the place," and the bank > will likely remain questionable until they are replaced.    In the > end, the "Renter" probably killed these due to lack of > interest/education... > > Steve Higgins. > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 10:21 AM David Coale via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Wrenchers, > > I have a client with an old off-grid Trace system and he is having > trouble with the batteries.  He has HUP Solar One FLA batteries > that are about 4 years old, so they should be in good shape.  The > last set lasted almost 20 years with a fair amount of abuse. > > Here is he history and what I think is going on. 7/21 they got new > batteries after about 19 years of use. > > 7/22 I get a call saying the batteries are not charging up all the > way.  When I check out the system, the batteries needed cleaning, > and I found three low cells, and the charger settings were back to > default, not set high enough to charge the batteries all the way > (it’s always multiple problems). The client (now a new renter, new > to the system) said he was filing the batteries once a month and > experienced some overflowing when the batteries were charged up. > > I cleaned things up, reset the charging parameters and set up an > equalizing charge to even out the cells. Hopefully this will fix > things. > > 11/25. The client calls and said the batteries don’t charge up all > the way and he is running the generator a lot and worried about > getting though the wintertime. > When I check things out, there are three bad cells and there is > soda on the batteries. It is hard to get a good voltage readings > because of the soda. Most of the cells are reading 2.1 volts under > about a 40 amp load. > > Yesterday I check things out, and all the cells are reading > between 1.93 to 1.98 under a 40 amp load in the morning, and I > don’t find any bad cells.  The charging voltage is never going > over about 52 volts so the system is never getting fully charged > up.  The charge setting look OK, so not sure what is going on. > This is acting like an old battery pack but these batteries are > relatively new. > > My guess at this point is that maybe the batteries lost acid with > the overflowing event and lost capacity.  Maybe adding acid back > in would bring them back up to working order.  The SG measured at > 1.150 or less. > > At this point the client (renter) has had enough of these battery > problems and is wondering every morning if the batteries will last > long enough to until the sun comes up. The renter is pushing for a > replacement LFP battery, but there should be lots of life left in > this battery pack. > > Let me know what you all think. > > Thanks, > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Dec 12 14:33:52 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 14:33:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm In-Reply-To: References: <793CB494-CA4A-4CE4-9CDC-A03A462DF72D@gmail.com> Message-ID: I second the chronic undercharging suggestion. We have a client with a 64 kWh FLA battery bank that only has 2.4 kW of PV. When they bought these batteries two years ago, they thought they could solve all of their energy woes by just buying a bigger battery. It is astonishing how many people don't understand that batteries themselves do not generate electricity - they just store it. They must think it's magic! Anyway, with that kind of PV to storage ratio, they were probably barely getting past the internal resistance. The batteries are completely toast now, and the client is moving to LFP (with more solar per my demand). Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 1:32 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Chronic undercharging, electrolyte dilution, lack of informed > equalization, and adding water without knowledge of the how’s, whys, and > when’s will kill those batteries in no time. I’ve pulled out to many of > those heavy bastards to count, most of them at a fresh young age because > the installer didn’t educate the clients properly. > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 10:21 AM David Coale via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Wrenchers, >> >> I have a client with an old off-grid Trace system and he is having >> trouble with the batteries. He has HUP Solar One FLA batteries that are >> about 4 years old, so they should be in good shape. The last set lasted >> almost 20 years with a fair amount of abuse. >> >> Here is he history and what I think is going on. 7/21 they got new >> batteries after about 19 years of use. >> >> 7/22 I get a call saying the batteries are not charging up all the way. >> When I check out the system, the batteries needed cleaning, and I found >> three low cells, and the charger settings were back to default, not set >> high enough to charge the batteries all the way (it’s always multiple >> problems). The client (now a new renter, new to the system) said he was >> filing the batteries once a month and experienced some overflowing when the >> batteries were charged up. >> >> I cleaned things up, reset the charging parameters and set up an >> equalizing charge to even out the cells. Hopefully this will fix things. >> >> 11/25. The client calls and said the batteries don’t charge up all the >> way and he is running the generator a lot and worried about getting though >> the wintertime. >> When I check things out, there are three bad cells and there is soda on >> the batteries. It is hard to get a good voltage readings because of the >> soda. Most of the cells are reading 2.1 volts under about a 40 amp load. >> >> Yesterday I check things out, and all the cells are reading between 1.93 >> to 1.98 under a 40 amp load in the morning, and I don’t find any bad >> cells. The charging voltage is never going over about 52 volts so the >> system is never getting fully charged up. The charge setting look OK, so >> not sure what is going on. This is acting like an old battery pack but >> these batteries are relatively new. >> >> My guess at this point is that maybe the batteries lost acid with the >> overflowing event and lost capacity. Maybe adding acid back in would bring >> them back up to working order. The SG measured at 1.150 or less. >> >> At this point the client (renter) has had enough of these battery >> problems and is wondering every morning if the batteries will last long >> enough to until the sun comes up. The renter is pushing for a replacement >> LFP battery, but there should be lots of life left in this battery pack. >> >> Let me know what you all think. >> >> Thanks, >> >> David >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 16:38:40 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 13:38:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Dec 12 17:12:36 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 17:12:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 GridBOSS AC Coupling Message-ID: For you Wrenches using EG4: I'm contemplating a system design that would benefit tremendously if I could AC Couple PV to the GridBOSS on the backed up load port, but I don't see that documented as a method of AC Coupling. I know you can AC Couple up to 125A OCPD through a Smart Load port in the GridBOSS, but the AC Coupled PV in this scenario would be 400 feet away, and it could be connected to the backed up load center at that location (presumably via a feeder tap just on the line side of the load center with main breaker installed). I'm trying to avoid running a 125A circuit 400 feet back to the GridBOSS, and there are some code issues with doing that (multiple feeders between buildings being the biggest problem). I did find a document that allows AC Coupled PV on the load port of the FlexBOSS in this scenario, but that does not help me. The FlexBoss connects to the GridBOSS through its Grid port, so it's a different scenario. I reached out to EG4 about this, but I was wondering if anyone here has some insight. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david2coale at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 17:51:34 2025 From: david2coale at gmail.com (David Coale) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 14:51:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <755099CC-CFEA-4CF3-8EEF-69A5A2C8A2C1@gmail.com> Thanks for the comments so far. The system consist of two Trace SW5548 inverter couple into a 240 volt system. Batteries are 680 amp/h 48 volts, with 2.4kw solar and an Outback charge controller. The generator is a 7.5kW generator. When the inverters shut down, the charge parameter are reset to default, which is too low for these batteries. That said, this does not happen with the charge controller which does most of the charging, though this might not be enough in the wintertime. The voltage used to go up to 58 on bulk charge but now never goes higher then about 52 and the capacity is down. It’s always hard to tell from a distance what is actually happening at the site, so I am sue I don’t have the complete picture. Thanks, David > On Dec 12, 2025, at 1:38 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > A few questions > > What’s the charge capacity? Like how big is the generator and solar > > How many amp hrs is the battery? > > How are they determining they are not getting full? > > What controller? > > Is there a trimetric to keep tabs. > > Given what you’ve said, I lean towards constant undercharging. Are they salvageable? Possibly > > I’d do a eq as high as possible from the oem. Take SG readings. Let them cool a few days and do it again. > If you are seeing an increase in SG and leveling out of the differences then keep going. > > Depending on the size of the generator and loads and size of the bank it could take a lot of hours of charging. So people run out of gasoline or hate hearing the generator or figure 2 hours is enough. > > > > > > > >> On Dec 12, 2025, at 11:34 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>  >> I second the chronic undercharging suggestion. We have a client with a 64 kWh FLA battery bank that only has 2.4 kW of PV. When they bought these batteries two years ago, they thought they could solve all of their energy woes by just buying a bigger battery. It is astonishing how many people don't understand that batteries themselves do not generate electricity - they just store it. They must think it's magic! >> >> Anyway, with that kind of PV to storage ratio, they were probably barely getting past the internal resistance. The batteries are completely toast now, and the client is moving to LFP (with more solar per my demand). >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 1:32 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Chronic undercharging, electrolyte dilution, lack of informed equalization, and adding water without knowledge of the how’s, whys, and when’s will kill those batteries in no time. I’ve pulled out to many of those heavy bastards to count, most of them at a fresh young age because the installer didn’t educate the clients properly. >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 10:21 AM David Coale via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Hi Wrenchers, >> >> I have a client with an old off-grid Trace system and he is having trouble with the batteries. He has HUP Solar One FLA batteries that are about 4 years old, so they should be in good shape. The last set lasted almost 20 years with a fair amount of abuse. >> >> Here is he history and what I think is going on. 7/21 they got new batteries after about 19 years of use. >> >> 7/22 I get a call saying the batteries are not charging up all the way. When I check out the system, the batteries needed cleaning, and I found three low cells, and the charger settings were back to default, not set high enough to charge the batteries all the way (it’s always multiple problems). The client (now a new renter, new to the system) said he was filing the batteries once a month and experienced some overflowing when the batteries were charged up. >> >> I cleaned things up, reset the charging parameters and set up an equalizing charge to even out the cells. Hopefully this will fix things. >> >> 11/25. The client calls and said the batteries don’t charge up all the way and he is running the generator a lot and worried about getting though the wintertime. >> When I check things out, there are three bad cells and there is soda on the batteries. It is hard to get a good voltage readings because of the soda. Most of the cells are reading 2.1 volts under about a 40 amp load. >> >> Yesterday I check things out, and all the cells are reading between 1.93 to 1.98 under a 40 amp load in the morning, and I don’t find any bad cells. The charging voltage is never going over about 52 volts so the system is never getting fully charged up. The charge setting look OK, so not sure what is going on. This is acting like an old battery pack but these batteries are relatively new. >> >> My guess at this point is that maybe the batteries lost acid with the overflowing event and lost capacity. Maybe adding acid back in would bring them back up to working order. The SG measured at 1.150 or less. >> >> At this point the client (renter) has had enough of these battery problems and is wondering every morning if the batteries will last long enough to until the sun comes up. The renter is pushing for a replacement LFP battery, but there should be lots of life left in this battery pack. >> >> Let me know what you all think. >> >> Thanks, >> >> David >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> Morningstar Electric Inc >> PO Box 1494 >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> 530-921-0560 >> CSLB 1116835 >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Dec 12 17:55:09 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 17:55:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 GridBOSS AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I should also mention that this is an invitation to go down the rabbit hole of 2020 NEC 225.30 if anyone is so inclined. :) In my scenario, the power production source for this off-grid home is an auxiliary building where the inverters and batteries are located. The AC Coupled solar is on the main house. If I were to run a separate feeder for the inverter loads and AC Coupled solar, that would be two feeders "supplying" a separate building. The AHJ argument may become, are any of the 225.30(A) subsections applicable? They like to think that a condition of subsection A needs to be met for subsection B to apply, which is not the case. Two feeders are allowed, as long as they originate from the same load center (the GridBOSS in this case). As long as the disconnects at the load end of the feeder are single disconnects per feeder and they are grouped, 225.30(B) is satisfied. You do not need to comply with ALL subsections of 225.30 for an exception to the single feeder rule to apply - only one subsection. If anyone thinks I'm misreading this, please let me know. The section has only existed since the 2020 code, so some of us old-timers still think that there is a hard rule about a single feeder. I have done a lot of research on this, and I believe I am interpreting it correctly. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 5:12 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > For you Wrenches using EG4: > > I'm contemplating a system design that would benefit tremendously if I > could AC Couple PV to the GridBOSS on the backed up load port, but I don't > see that documented as a method of AC Coupling. I know you can AC Couple up > to 125A OCPD through a Smart Load port in the GridBOSS, but the AC Coupled > PV in this scenario would be 400 feet away, and it could be connected to > the backed up load center at that location (presumably via a feeder tap > just on the line side of the load center with main breaker installed). > I'm trying to avoid running a 125A circuit 400 feet back to the GridBOSS, > and there are some code issues with doing that (multiple feeders > between buildings being the biggest problem). > > I did find a document that allows AC Coupled PV on the load port of the > FlexBOSS in this scenario, but that does not help me. The FlexBoss connects > to the GridBOSS through its Grid port, so it's a different scenario. > > I reached out to EG4 about this, but I was wondering if anyone here has > some insight. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Dec 12 18:11:06 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 16:11:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm In-Reply-To: <755099CC-CFEA-4CF3-8EEF-69A5A2C8A2C1@gmail.com> References: <755099CC-CFEA-4CF3-8EEF-69A5A2C8A2C1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <88a0f361-80f3-4069-b3a6-90530d188008@solarray.com> You must be quoting the 6 hr forklift discharge rate.  That's actually the HUP SO-6-85-17 which is rated at 845 amp-hrs at the 20 hr discharge rate.  The 20 hr rate is what we should be using most of the time for off grid solar.   The minimum charge rate for that battery is 68 amps.  That array could only do 50 amps on a perfect day, so immediately, your array is undersized.  Plus from the sound of it, they are just chronically under charging/ over discharging the battery.  I would suggest doing a complete load profile of their daily loads, and designing an array that can meet that load year round. Renting an off grid home is always a mess.  I started charging anytime I was going to be brought into that situation, since I didn't design the system for the new user.  Just because it worked great fro the original user, does NOT mean its going to be adequate at all for the average American consumer.   I'm guessing the array needs to be doubled in size. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 12/12/2025 3:51 PM, David Coale via RE-wrenches wrote: > Thanks for the comments so far.  The system consist of two Trace > SW5548 inverter couple into a 240 volt system.  Batteries are 680 > amp/h 48 volts, with 2.4kw solar and an Outback charge controller. >  The generator is a 7.5kW generator.  When the inverters shut down, > the charge parameter are reset to default, which is too low for these > batteries.  That said, this does not happen with the charge controller > which does most of the charging, though this might not be enough in > the wintertime. > > The voltage used to go up to 58 on bulk charge but now never goes > higher then about 52 and the capacity is down. > > It’s always hard to tell from a distance what is actually happening at > the site, so I am sue I don’t have the complete picture. > > Thanks, > > David > > >> On Dec 12, 2025, at 1:38 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> A few questions >> >> What’s the charge capacity?  Like how big is the generator and solar >> >> How many amp hrs is the battery? >> >> How are they determining they are not getting full? >> >> What controller? >> >> Is there a trimetric to keep tabs. >> >> Given what you’ve said, I lean towards constant undercharging. Are >> they salvageable? Possibly >> >> I’d do a eq as high as possible from the oem. Take SG readings. Let >> them cool a few days and do it again. >> If you are seeing an increase in SG and leveling out of the >> differences then keep going. >> >> Depending on the size of the generator and loads and size of the bank >> it could take a lot of hours of charging. So people run out of >> gasoline or hate hearing the generator or figure 2 hours is enough. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Dec 12, 2025, at 11:34 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> I second the chronic undercharging suggestion. We have a client with >>> a 64 kWh FLA battery bank that only has 2.4 kW of PV. When they >>> bought these batteries two years ago, they thought they could solve >>> all of their energy woes by just buying a bigger battery. It is >>> astonishing how many people don't understand that batteries >>> themselves do not generate electricity - they just store it. They >>> must think it's magic! >>> >>> Anyway, with that kind of PV to storage ratio, they were probably >>> barely getting past the internal resistance. The batteries are >>> completely toast now, and the client is moving to LFP (with more >>> solar per my demand). >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 1:32 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Chronic undercharging, electrolyte dilution, lack of informed >>> equalization, and adding water without knowledge of the how’s, >>> whys, and when’s will kill those batteries in no time. I’ve >>> pulled out to many of those heavy bastards to count, most of >>> them at a fresh young  age because the installer didn’t educate >>> the clients properly. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 10:21 AM David Coale via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Wrenchers, >>> >>> I have a client with an old off-grid Trace system and he is >>> having trouble with the batteries.  He has HUP Solar One FLA >>> batteries that are about 4 years old, so they should be in >>> good shape. The last set lasted almost 20 years with a fair >>> amount of abuse. >>> >>> Here is he history and what I think is going on. 7/21 they >>> got new batteries after about 19 years of use. >>> >>> 7/22 I get a call saying the batteries are not charging up >>> all the way.  When I check out the system, the batteries >>> needed cleaning, and I found three low cells, and the >>> charger settings were back to default, not set high enough >>> to charge the batteries all the way (it’s always multiple >>> problems).  The client (now a new renter, new to the system) >>> said he was filing the batteries once a month and >>> experienced some overflowing when the batteries were charged up. >>> >>> I cleaned things up, reset the charging parameters and set >>> up an equalizing charge to even out the cells. Hopefully >>> this will fix things. >>> >>> 11/25. The client calls and said the batteries don’t charge >>> up all the way and he is running the generator a lot and >>> worried about getting though the wintertime. >>> When I check things out, there are three bad cells and there >>> is soda on the batteries. It is hard to get a good voltage >>> readings because of the soda. Most of the cells are reading >>> 2.1 volts under about a 40 amp load. >>> >>> Yesterday I check things out, and all the cells are reading >>> between 1.93 to 1.98 under a 40 amp load in the morning, and >>> I don’t find any bad cells.  The charging voltage is never >>> going over about 52 volts so the system is never getting >>> fully charged up.  The charge setting look OK, so not sure >>> what is going on. This is acting like an old battery pack >>> but these batteries are relatively new. >>> >>> My guess at this point is that maybe the batteries lost acid >>> with the overflowing event and lost capacity.  Maybe adding >>> acid back in would bring them back up to working order.  The >>> SG measured at 1.150 or less. >>> >>> At this point the client (renter) has had enough of these >>> battery problems and is wondering every morning if the >>> batteries will last long enough to until the sun comes up.  >>> The renter is pushing for a replacement LFP battery, but >>> there should be lots of life left in this battery pack. >>> >>> Let me know what you all think. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Michael Morningstar >>> >>> Morningstar Electric Inc >>> PO Box 1494 >>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >>> 530-921-0560 >>> CSLB 1116835 >>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Dec 12 18:14:00 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 23:14:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm In-Reply-To: <755099CC-CFEA-4CF3-8EEF-69A5A2C8A2C1@gmail.com> References: <755099CC-CFEA-4CF3-8EEF-69A5A2C8A2C1@gmail.com> <755099CC-CFEA-4CF3-8EEF-69A5A2C8A2C1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2afe5dd3-8b2b-08bf-41f6-a0dee2b078d1@floridasolardesigngroup.com> Yeah, 2.4 kW on a 32.6 kWh battery is a C/14 rate. It's barely going to tickle the battery when the actual solar output is lower than optimal. Over time, sulfation will take hold, and the internal resistance will continue to increase, creating a snowball effect. It definitely sounds like chronic undercharging. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 5:53 PM David Coale via RE-wrenches wrote: > Thanks for the comments so far.  The system consist of two Trace SW5548 > inverter couple into a 240 volt system.  Batteries are 680 amp/h 48 volts, > with 2.4kw solar and an Outback charge controller.  The generator is a 7.5kW > generator.  When the inverters shut down, the charge parameter are reset to > default, which is too low for these batteries.  That said, this does not > happen with the charge controller which does most of the charging, though this > might not be enough in the wintertime. > > > The voltage used to go up to 58 on bulk charge but now never goes higher then > about 52 and the capacity is down. > > > It’s always hard to tell from a distance what is actually happening at the > site, so I am sue I don’t have the complete picture. > > > Thanks, > > > David > > > > > > On Dec 12, 2025, at 1:38 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches > wrenches.org [re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org]> wrote: > > > > A few questions > > > > > > What’s the charge capacity?  Like how big is the generator and solar  > > > > > > How many amp hrs is the battery? > > > > > > How are they determining they are not getting full? > > > > > > What controller? > > > > > > Is there a trimetric to keep tabs.  > > > > > > Given what you’ve said, I lean towards constant undercharging. Are they > > salvageable? Possibly  > > > > > > I’d do a eq as high as possible from the oem. Take SG readings. Let them > > cool a few days and do it again.  > > If you are seeing an increase in SG and leveling out of the differences then > > keep going.  > > > > > > Depending on the size of the generator and loads and size of the bank it > > could take a lot of hours of charging. So people run out of gasoline or hate > > hearing the generator or figure 2 hours is enough.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 12, 2025, at 11:34 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > > > > > wrote: > > > > >  > > > I second the chronic undercharging suggestion. We have a client with a 64 > > > kWh FLA battery bank that only has 2.4 kW of PV. When they bought these > > > batteries two years ago, they thought they could solve all of their energy > > > woes by just buying a bigger battery. It is astonishing how many people > > > don't understand that batteries themselves do not generate electricity - > > > they just store it. They must think it's magic! > > > > > > > > > Anyway, with that kind of PV to storage ratio, they were probably barely > > > getting past the internal resistance. The batteries are completely toast > > > now, and the client is moving to LFP (with more solar per my demand). > > > > > > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > > > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > > > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 1:32 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Chronic undercharging, electrolyte dilution, lack of informed > > > > equalization, and adding water without knowledge of the how’s, whys, and > > > > when’s will kill those batteries in no time. I’ve pulled out to many of > > > > those heavy bastards to count, most of them at a fresh young  age > > > > because the installer didn’t educate the clients properly.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 10:21 AM David Coale via RE-wrenches > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Wrenchers, > > > > > > > > > > I have a client with an old off-grid Trace system and he is having > > > > > trouble with the batteries.  He has HUP Solar One FLA batteries that > > > > > are about 4 years old, so they should be in good shape.  The last set > > > > > lasted almost 20 years with a fair amount of abuse. > > > > > > > > > > Here is he history and what I think is going on. 7/21 they got new > > > > > batteries after about 19 years of use. > > > > > > > > > > 7/22 I get a call saying the batteries are not charging up all the > > > > > way.  When I check out the system, the batteries needed cleaning, and > > > > > I found three low cells, and the charger settings were back to > > > > > default, not set high enough to charge the batteries all the way (it’s > > > > > always multiple problems).  The client (now a new renter, new to the > > > > > system) said he was filing the batteries once a month and experienced > > > > > some overflowing when the batteries were charged up. > > > > > > > > > > I cleaned things up, reset the charging parameters and set up an > > > > > equalizing charge to even out the cells. Hopefully this will fix > > > > > things. > > > > > > > > > > 11/25. The client calls and said the batteries don’t charge up all the > > > > > way and he is running the generator a lot and worried about getting > > > > > though the wintertime. > > > > > When I check things out, there are three bad cells and there is soda > > > > > on the batteries. It is hard to get a good voltage readings because of > > > > > the soda. Most of the cells are reading 2.1 volts under about a 40 amp > > > > > load. > > > > > > > > > > Yesterday I check things out, and all the cells are reading between > > > > > 1.93 to 1.98 under a 40 amp load in the morning, and I don’t find any > > > > > bad cells.  The charging voltage is never going over about 52 volts so > > > > > the system is never getting fully charged up.  The charge setting look > > > > > OK, so not sure what is going on. This is acting like an old battery > > > > > pack but these batteries are relatively new. > > > > > > > > > > My guess at this point is that maybe the batteries lost acid with the > > > > > overflowing event and lost capacity.  Maybe adding acid back in would > > > > > bring them back up to working order.  The SG measured at 1.150 or > > > > > less. > > > > > > > > > > At this point the client (renter) has had enough of these battery > > > > > problems and is wondering every morning if the batteries will last > > > > > long enough to until the sun comes up.  The renter is pushing for a > > > > > replacement LFP battery, but there should be lots of life left in this > > > > > battery pack. > > > > > > > > > > Let me know what you all think. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > > [http://re-wrenches.org/] > > > > > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > > > > > the other: > > > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/] > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael Morningstar  > > > > > > > > > > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > > > PO Box 1494 > > > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > > > 530-921-0560 > > > > CSLB 1116835 > > > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com [mjmorningstar at gmail.com] > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://re-wrenches.org/] > > > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > > > > the other: > > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > > other: > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > [http://re-wrenches.org] > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > [RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 20:15:44 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 17:15:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm In-Reply-To: <755099CC-CFEA-4CF3-8EEF-69A5A2C8A2C1@gmail.com> References: <755099CC-CFEA-4CF3-8EEF-69A5A2C8A2C1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20BE7EF8-97F7-47D4-AD2B-21A8C4CB96FB@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Dec 12 23:22:09 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 20:22:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge/LG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36e9649fa8f649a064eb1b392e81d284@sti.net> Best not to answer this call. Too many demons with LG. You can contact me off the list. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-12-12 6:25 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wrenches, > I'm in unfamiliar territory here. I got a call from someone who has a > Solaredge/LG Chem system. Here is what they are saying: > > Solomon says our solar panels are charging the LG battery but somewhere > there is no connection from the LG battery to power our house when we > need the battery back up. When there is a power outage we have no back > up power to the house. When the system was first installed we got > maybe 30 minutes of back up power once and then after that it was dead, > and it just stopped charging or giving us any back up power at all. > > The LG battery was recalled and we assumed that was why it hadn't > worked- we had it replaced about two years ago and we can see that it > is getting charged by our panels but we do not get any back up power to > the house when there is a power outage. > > I have zero experience with either Solaredge or LG and could use some > advise to know where to start or what to look for when I go out to > troubleshoot. > > Thanks, > Michael > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 00:41:33 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2025 21:41:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm In-Reply-To: References: <793CB494-CA4A-4CE4-9CDC-A03A462DF72D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Are you able to get near the 75 amp charge rate with the SW's charger and that 7.5 KW generator with a step down transformer maybe? Neither charging combos can push the voltage above 52? All the bus bars and hardware have been cleaned and reassembled recently or not since 2022? Have you made any other observations looking over that 128 day logging menu? Battery banks prematurely heading to the smelter is the unfortunate reality of our systems of the past. Chasing that mostly unrealistic goal that the bank will do some dramatic turn around to redeem everyone's efforts may likely result in more wasted time and money. Replacing with a lithium pack that offer's it's own onboard SOC capacity meter is almost a necessity with renters. Removing the unknown cloud around understanding what the battery needs results in a much more enjoyable homestead experience and engages the renter to be accountable for recharging. Offerings from both Midnite and Rubix can be had for less than $.28 a watt hour retail these days. Impressive times for folks storing sunshine. The sooner it goes in the sooner the fuel savings and lack of service calls can start paying it off. I always default to Midnite first for quite a few reasons and especially for `UL9540 but Rubix might be a better solution in this case since that volatile memory Steve mentions might become a concern if a trained individual isn't frequently checking up on the system to make sure all the settings are still in tune with the battery. Besides for LBCO, SW default settings are quite ideal for all of the Rubix series. You also gain the bonus of a digital net power meter on the battery to validate the SW's meter screens along with the Outback logging menu. Nick On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 10:21 AM David Coale via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenchers, > > I have a client with an old off-grid Trace system and he is having trouble > with the batteries. He has HUP Solar One FLA batteries that are about 4 > years old, so they should be in good shape. The last set lasted almost 20 > years with a fair amount of abuse. > > Here is he history and what I think is going on. 7/21 they got new > batteries after about 19 years of use. > > 7/22 I get a call saying the batteries are not charging up all the way. > When I check out the system, the batteries needed cleaning, and I found > three low cells, and the charger settings were back to default, not set > high enough to charge the batteries all the way (it’s always multiple > problems). The client (now a new renter, new to the system) said he was > filing the batteries once a month and experienced some overflowing when the > batteries were charged up. > > I cleaned things up, reset the charging parameters and set up an > equalizing charge to even out the cells. Hopefully this will fix things. > > 11/25. The client calls and said the batteries don’t charge up all the way > and he is running the generator a lot and worried about getting though the > wintertime. > When I check things out, there are three bad cells and there is soda on > the batteries. It is hard to get a good voltage readings because of the > soda. Most of the cells are reading 2.1 volts under about a 40 amp load. > > Yesterday I check things out, and all the cells are reading between 1.93 > to 1.98 under a 40 amp load in the morning, and I don’t find any bad > cells. The charging voltage is never going over about 52 volts so the > system is never getting fully charged up. The charge setting look OK, so > not sure what is going on. This is acting like an old battery pack but > these batteries are relatively new. > > My guess at this point is that maybe the batteries lost acid with the > overflowing event and lost capacity. Maybe adding acid back in would bring > them back up to working order. The SG measured at 1.150 or less. > > At this point the client (renter) has had enough of these battery problems > and is wondering every morning if the batteries will last long enough to > until the sun comes up. The renter is pushing for a replacement LFP > battery, but there should be lots of life left in this battery pack. > > Let me know what you all think. > > Thanks, > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Sat Dec 13 14:13:36 2025 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2025 19:13:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm In-Reply-To: References: <793CB494-CA4A-4CE4-9CDC-A03A462DF72D@gmail.com> Message-ID: I couldn't agree more with Ray. Those batteries are tough. Assuming there is adequate charging capacity the batteries have a very good chance of recovering. That being said the renter has to be trained! Simply spending more money to replace the Hup batteries wit a set of new LIPO batteries will most likely trade one problem for another. As others have already pointed out: If energy in is less than energy out the batteries will not be able to make up the difference. Even LIPO batteries. Pieter Huebner Project Manager Off Grid Enerprises ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, December 12, 2025 11:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Nick Lucchese Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm Are you able to get near the 75 amp charge rate with the SW's charger and that 7.5 KW generator with a step down transformer maybe? Neither charging combos can push the voltage above 52? All the bus bars and hardware have been cleaned and reassembled recently or not since 2022? Have you made any other observations looking over that 128 day logging menu? Battery banks prematurely heading to the smelter is the unfortunate reality of our systems of the past. Chasing that mostly unrealistic goal that the bank will do some dramatic turn around to redeem everyone's efforts may likely result in more wasted time and money. Replacing with a lithium pack that offer's it's own onboard SOC capacity meter is almost a necessity with renters. Removing the unknown cloud around understanding what the battery needs results in a much more enjoyable homestead experience and engages the renter to be accountable for recharging. Offerings from both Midnite and Rubix can be had for less than $.28 a watt hour retail these days. Impressive times for folks storing sunshine. The sooner it goes in the sooner the fuel savings and lack of service calls can start paying it off. I always default to Midnite first for quite a few reasons and especially for `UL9540 but Rubix might be a better solution in this case since that volatile memory Steve mentions might become a concern if a trained individual isn't frequently checking up on the system to make sure all the settings are still in tune with the battery. Besides for LBCO, SW default settings are quite ideal for all of the Rubix series. You also gain the bonus of a digital net power meter on the battery to validate the SW's meter screens along with the Outback logging menu. Nick On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 10:21 AM David Coale via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Wrenchers, I have a client with an old off-grid Trace system and he is having trouble with the batteries. He has HUP Solar One FLA batteries that are about 4 years old, so they should be in good shape. The last set lasted almost 20 years with a fair amount of abuse. Here is he history and what I think is going on. 7/21 they got new batteries after about 19 years of use. 7/22 I get a call saying the batteries are not charging up all the way. When I check out the system, the batteries needed cleaning, and I found three low cells, and the charger settings were back to default, not set high enough to charge the batteries all the way (it’s always multiple problems). The client (now a new renter, new to the system) said he was filing the batteries once a month and experienced some overflowing when the batteries were charged up. I cleaned things up, reset the charging parameters and set up an equalizing charge to even out the cells. Hopefully this will fix things. 11/25. The client calls and said the batteries don’t charge up all the way and he is running the generator a lot and worried about getting though the wintertime. When I check things out, there are three bad cells and there is soda on the batteries. It is hard to get a good voltage readings because of the soda. Most of the cells are reading 2.1 volts under about a 40 amp load. Yesterday I check things out, and all the cells are reading between 1.93 to 1.98 under a 40 amp load in the morning, and I don’t find any bad cells. The charging voltage is never going over about 52 volts so the system is never getting fully charged up. The charge setting look OK, so not sure what is going on. This is acting like an old battery pack but these batteries are relatively new. My guess at this point is that maybe the batteries lost acid with the overflowing event and lost capacity. Maybe adding acid back in would bring them back up to working order. The SG measured at 1.150 or less. At this point the client (renter) has had enough of these battery problems and is wondering every morning if the batteries will last long enough to until the sun comes up. The renter is pushing for a replacement LFP battery, but there should be lots of life left in this battery pack. Let me know what you all think. Thanks, David _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Dec 13 14:42:01 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2025 11:42:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFXR3648A battery charging Message-ID: <135daac15d7e984b73fa47b0b0baba50@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I have a client with one VFXR3648A inverter off-grid with PV and a generator. The inverter is set to bulk at 58.2 VDC for 2 hours but when the generator is required the voltage never gets above 52 VDC. The PV gets the voltage up to the 58 volt zone reliable. The original generator was a portable of about 3 Kw. I thought it was not providing enough RMS power so we upgraded to a Kohler vertical shaft 12 kW air cooled unit. The problem is still the same: The bulk voltage of the batteries never gets above 52 VDC. On my next visit I plan on resetting the inverter to factory defaults. Other than that I am not sure what to try. I have little luck reaching Outback tech support in the last year so I am hoping someone here can provide some advice. Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 14:55:22 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2025 11:55:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm In-Reply-To: References: <793CB494-CA4A-4CE4-9CDC-A03A462DF72D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, the "not above 52vdc" part sure makes it sound like some unfound corrosion or poor connection in between 2-3 cells. Hopefully they can be saved and you'll be a hero! Nick On Sat, Dec 13, 2025 at 11:13 AM pieter offgridenterprises.org < pieter at offgridenterprises.org> wrote: > I couldn't agree more with Ray. Those batteries are tough. Assuming there > is adequate charging capacity the batteries have a very good chance of > recovering. That being said the renter has to be trained! Simply spending > more money to replace the Hup batteries wit a set of new LIPO batteries > will most likely trade one problem for another. As others have already > pointed out: If energy in is less than energy out the batteries will not be > able to make up the difference. Even LIPO batteries. > Pieter Huebner > Project Manager > Off Grid Enerprises > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, December 12, 2025 11:41 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Nick Lucchese > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm > > Are you able to get near the 75 amp charge rate with the SW's charger and > that 7.5 KW generator with a step down transformer maybe? Neither charging > combos can push the voltage above 52? All the bus bars and hardware have > been cleaned and reassembled recently or not since 2022? Have you made any > other observations looking over that 128 day logging menu? > > Battery banks prematurely heading to the smelter is the unfortunate > reality of our systems of the past. Chasing that mostly unrealistic goal > that the bank will do some dramatic turn around to redeem everyone's > efforts may likely result in more wasted time and money. Replacing with a > lithium pack that offer's it's own onboard SOC capacity meter is almost a > necessity with renters. Removing the unknown cloud around > understanding what the battery needs results in a much more enjoyable > homestead experience and engages the renter to be accountable for > recharging. Offerings from both Midnite and Rubix can be had for less than > $.28 a watt hour retail these days. Impressive times for folks storing > sunshine. The sooner it goes in the sooner the fuel savings and lack of > service calls can start paying it off. > > I always default to Midnite first for quite a few reasons and especially > for `UL9540 but Rubix might be a better solution in this case since that > volatile memory Steve mentions might become a concern if a trained > individual isn't frequently checking up on the system to make sure all the > settings are still in tune with the battery. Besides for LBCO, SW default > settings are quite ideal for all of the Rubix series. You also gain the > bonus of a digital net power meter on the battery to validate the SW's > meter screens along with the Outback logging menu. > > Nick > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 10:21 AM David Coale via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Wrenchers, > > I have a client with an old off-grid Trace system and he is having trouble > with the batteries. He has HUP Solar One FLA batteries that are about 4 > years old, so they should be in good shape. The last set lasted almost 20 > years with a fair amount of abuse. > > Here is he history and what I think is going on. 7/21 they got new > batteries after about 19 years of use. > > 7/22 I get a call saying the batteries are not charging up all the way. > When I check out the system, the batteries needed cleaning, and I found > three low cells, and the charger settings were back to default, not set > high enough to charge the batteries all the way (it’s always multiple > problems). The client (now a new renter, new to the system) said he was > filing the batteries once a month and experienced some overflowing when the > batteries were charged up. > > I cleaned things up, reset the charging parameters and set up an > equalizing charge to even out the cells. Hopefully this will fix things. > > 11/25. The client calls and said the batteries don’t charge up all the way > and he is running the generator a lot and worried about getting though the > wintertime. > When I check things out, there are three bad cells and there is soda on > the batteries. It is hard to get a good voltage readings because of the > soda. Most of the cells are reading 2.1 volts under about a 40 amp load. > > Yesterday I check things out, and all the cells are reading between 1.93 > to 1.98 under a 40 amp load in the morning, and I don’t find any bad > cells. The charging voltage is never going over about 52 volts so the > system is never getting fully charged up. The charge setting look OK, so > not sure what is going on. This is acting like an old battery pack but > these batteries are relatively new. > > My guess at this point is that maybe the batteries lost acid with the > overflowing event and lost capacity. Maybe adding acid back in would bring > them back up to working order. The SG measured at 1.150 or less. > > At this point the client (renter) has had enough of these battery problems > and is wondering every morning if the batteries will last long enough to > until the sun comes up. The renter is pushing for a replacement LFP > battery, but there should be lots of life left in this battery pack. > > Let me know what you all think. > > Thanks, > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Dec 13 14:56:59 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2025 12:56:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm In-Reply-To: References: <793CB494-CA4A-4CE4-9CDC-A03A462DF72D@gmail.com> Message-ID: I spent decades talking folks through recovering HUPs that had been chronically under charged.   The fact that the batteries are just hovering around 52 v and not breaking out above that is another sign that there is capacity left.  Its when they charge right up to 58 v and go into float before 10 AM that you have no capacity left. That hovering at partial SOC is because there is not a high enough charge rate. They need to start the generator in the morning, so that both the generator and the solar can work together to have a high enough charge rate. Equalize, Equalize, Equalize, they will come back to full charge, but yes they will have lost some capacity from when they were new. These batteries could easily last another 5 years if recovered. We're not talking 2 to 4 hours of generator charging either, we're talking like 12 hours a day possibly, for 3 to 4 days.  You just keep going until the SG comes up.  Period.  Then bring them to full charge every week to 10 days, and don't let them sit chronically under charged again. More solar or a drastic weight loss program is the only way to make this system work long term. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 12/13/2025 12:13 PM, pieter offgridenterprises.org via RE-wrenches wrote: > I couldn't agree more with Ray. Those batteries are tough. Assuming > there is adequate charging capacity the batteries have a very good > chance of recovering. That being said the renter has to be trained! > Simply spending more money to replace the Hup batteries wit a set of > new LIPO batteries will most likely trade one problem for another. As > others have already pointed out: If energy in is less than energy out > the batteries will not be able to make up the difference. Even LIPO > batteries. > Pieter Huebner > Project Manager > Off Grid Enerprises > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on > behalf of Nick Lucchese via RE-wrenches > > *Sent:* Friday, December 12, 2025 11:41 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Nick Lucchese > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm > Are you able to get near the 75 amp charge rate with the SW's charger > and that 7.5 KW generator with a step down transformer maybe? Neither > charging combos can push the voltage above 52? All the bus bars and > hardware have been cleaned and reassembled recently or not since 2022? > Have you made any other observations looking over that 128 day logging > menu? > > Battery banks prematurely heading to the smelter is the unfortunate > reality of our systems of the past. Chasing that mostly unrealistic > goal that the bank will do some dramatic turn around to redeem > everyone's efforts may likely result in more wasted time and money. > Replacing with a lithium pack that offer's it's own onboard SOC > capacity meter is almost a necessity with renters. Removing the > unknown cloud around understanding what the battery needs results in a > much more enjoyable homestead experience and engages the renter to be > accountable for recharging. Offerings from both Midnite and Rubix can > be had for less than $.28 a watt hour retail these days. Impressive > times for folks storing sunshine. The sooner it goes in the sooner the > fuel savings and lack of service calls can start paying it off. > > I always default to Midnite first for quite a few reasons and > especially for `UL9540 but Rubix might be a better solution in this > case since that volatile memory Steve mentions might become a concern > if a trained individual isn't frequently checking up on the system to > make sure all the settings are still in tune with the battery. Besides > for LBCO, SW default settings are quite ideal for all of the Rubix > series. You also gain the bonus of a digital net power meter on the > battery to validate the SW's meter screens along with the Outback > logging menu. > > Nick > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 10:21 AM David Coale via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Wrenchers, > > I have a client with an old off-grid Trace system and he is having > trouble with the batteries.  He has HUP Solar One FLA batteries > that are about 4 years old, so they should be in good shape.  The > last set lasted almost 20 years with a fair amount of abuse. > > Here is he history and what I think is going on. 7/21 they got new > batteries after about 19 years of use. > > 7/22 I get a call saying the batteries are not charging up all the > way.  When I check out the system, the batteries needed cleaning, > and I found three low cells, and the charger settings were back to > default, not set high enough to charge the batteries all the way > (it’s always multiple problems).  The client (now a new renter, > new to the system) said he was filing the batteries once a month > and experienced some overflowing when the batteries were charged up. > > I cleaned things up, reset the charging parameters and set up an > equalizing charge to even out the cells. Hopefully this will fix > things. > > 11/25. The client calls and said the batteries don’t charge up all > the way and he is running the generator a lot and worried about > getting though the wintertime. > When I check things out, there are three bad cells and there is > soda on the batteries. It is hard to get a good voltage readings > because of the soda. Most of the cells are reading 2.1 volts under > about a 40 amp load. > > Yesterday I check things out, and all the cells are reading > between 1.93 to 1.98 under a 40 amp load in the morning, and I > don’t find any bad cells.  The charging voltage is never going > over about 52 volts so the system is never getting fully charged > up.  The charge setting look OK, so not sure what is going on. > This is acting like an old battery pack but these batteries are > relatively new. > > My guess at this point is that maybe the batteries lost acid with > the overflowing event and lost capacity.  Maybe adding acid back > in would bring them back up to working order.  The SG measured at > 1.150 or less. > > At this point the client (renter) has had enough of these battery > problems and is wondering every morning if the batteries will last > long enough to until the sun comes up. The renter is pushing for a > replacement LFP battery, but there should be lots of life left in > this battery pack. > > Let me know what you all think. > > Thanks, > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 15:11:06 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2025 12:11:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFXR3648A battery charging In-Reply-To: <135daac15d7e984b73fa47b0b0baba50@mail.gmail.com> References: <135daac15d7e984b73fa47b0b0baba50@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1292772B-DCA8-47BE-821A-3B6D2B98DA23@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Dec 13 16:09:04 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2025 13:09:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFXR3648A battery charging In-Reply-To: <1292772B-DCA8-47BE-821A-3B6D2B98DA23@gmail.com> References: <135daac15d7e984b73fa47b0b0baba50@mail.gmail.com> <1292772B-DCA8-47BE-821A-3B6D2B98DA23@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9fa52d1f811d96f25059e1655df7d072@mail.gmail.com> Jay: Thanks for that. I always thought re-bulk only applied if you had 24/7 AC input which we do not. I made the adjustment and we will see what happens. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] *Sent:* Saturday, December 13, 2025 12:11 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] VFXR3648A battery charging You have to set the rebulk volts higher, higher than what ever you start the generator. Say 56 or so. Jay On Dec 13, 2025, at 11:56 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Friends: I have a client with one VFXR3648A inverter off-grid with PV and a generator. The inverter is set to bulk at 58.2 VDC for 2 hours but when the generator is required the voltage never gets above 52 VDC. The PV gets the voltage up to the 58 volt zone reliable. The original generator was a portable of about 3 Kw. I thought it was not providing enough RMS power so we upgraded to a Kohler vertical shaft 12 kW air cooled unit. The problem is still the same: The bulk voltage of the batteries never gets above 52 VDC. On my next visit I plan on resetting the inverter to factory defaults. Other than that I am not sure what to try. I have little luck reaching Outback tech support in the last year so I am hoping someone here can provide some advice. Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Sat Dec 13 16:51:19 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2025 13:51:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFXR3648A battery charging In-Reply-To: <9fa52d1f811d96f25059e1655df7d072@mail.gmail.com> References: <135daac15d7e984b73fa47b0b0baba50@mail.gmail.com> <1292772B-DCA8-47BE-821A-3B6D2B98DA23@gmail.com> <9fa52d1f811d96f25059e1655df7d072@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The other setting that could affect this is the DC Generator Setting in the AGS menu. For a Normal 48V system, this is generally set to around 70volts... Many see this and panic and set it down. Even if you have DC Gen set to no, it'll still affect charging. This screenshot is assuming 24V... [image: image.png] If they have the DC Gen set to 52 volts, it'll charge to 52 for a time and then shut off. *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Sat, Dec 13, 2025 at 1:17 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jay: > > > > Thanks for that. I always thought re-bulk only applied if you had 24/7 AC > input which we do not. I made the adjustment and we will see what happens. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, December 13, 2025 12:11 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] VFXR3648A battery charging > > > > You have to set the rebulk volts higher, higher than what ever you start > the generator. > > > > Say 56 or so. > > > > Jay > > > > On Dec 13, 2025, at 11:56 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > > > I have a client with one VFXR3648A inverter off-grid with PV and a > generator. The inverter is set to bulk at 58.2 VDC for 2 hours but when > the generator is required the voltage never gets above 52 VDC. The PV gets > the voltage up to the 58 volt zone reliable. > > > > The original generator was a portable of about 3 Kw. I thought it was not > providing enough RMS power so we upgraded to a Kohler vertical shaft 12 kW > air cooled unit. The problem is still the same: The bulk voltage of the > batteries never gets above 52 VDC. > > > > On my next visit I plan on resetting the inverter to factory defaults. > Other than that I am not sure what to try. I have little luck reaching > Outback tech support in the last year so I am hoping someone here can > provide some advice. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 351678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve at surrette.com Sat Dec 13 16:54:08 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2025 13:54:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm In-Reply-To: References: <793CB494-CA4A-4CE4-9CDC-A03A462DF72D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Oddly, we have two questions where the Outback is only getting to 52 volts. I mentioned in the other thread that these could be the DC Generator Voltage settings. I'd say it here as well. Please check the DC Gen settings in the AGS. For a 48V system, set it to 76V if you are using an AC Genny. *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Sat, Dec 13, 2025 at 12:08 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I spent decades talking folks through recovering HUPs that had been > chronically under charged. The fact that the batteries are just hovering > around 52 v and not breaking out above that is another sign that there is > capacity left. Its when they charge right up to 58 v and go into float > before 10 AM that you have no capacity left. That hovering at partial SOC > is because there is not a high enough charge rate. > > They need to start the generator in the morning, so that both the > generator and the solar can work together to have a high enough charge rate. > > Equalize, Equalize, Equalize, they will come back to full charge, but yes > they will have lost some capacity from when they were new. These batteries > could easily last another 5 years if recovered. > > We're not talking 2 to 4 hours of generator charging either, we're talking > like 12 hours a day possibly, for 3 to 4 days. You just keep going until > the SG comes up. Period. Then bring them to full charge every week to 10 > days, and don't let them sit chronically under charged again. > > > More solar or a drastic weight loss program is the only way to make this > system work long term. > > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > > On 12/13/2025 12:13 PM, pieter offgridenterprises.org via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I couldn't agree more with Ray. Those batteries are tough. Assuming there > is adequate charging capacity the batteries have a very good chance of > recovering. That being said the renter has to be trained! Simply spending > more money to replace the Hup batteries wit a set of new LIPO batteries > will most likely trade one problem for another. As others have already > pointed out: If energy in is less than energy out the batteries will not be > able to make up the difference. Even LIPO batteries. > Pieter Huebner > Project Manager > Off Grid Enerprises > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches > on behalf of Nick Lucchese > via RE-wrenches > > *Sent:* Friday, December 12, 2025 11:41 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Cc:* Nick Lucchese > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm > > Are you able to get near the 75 amp charge rate with the SW's charger and > that 7.5 KW generator with a step down transformer maybe? Neither charging > combos can push the voltage above 52? All the bus bars and hardware have > been cleaned and reassembled recently or not since 2022? Have you made any > other observations looking over that 128 day logging menu? > > Battery banks prematurely heading to the smelter is the unfortunate > reality of our systems of the past. Chasing that mostly unrealistic goal > that the bank will do some dramatic turn around to redeem everyone's > efforts may likely result in more wasted time and money. Replacing with a > lithium pack that offer's it's own onboard SOC capacity meter is almost a > necessity with renters. Removing the unknown cloud around > understanding what the battery needs results in a much more enjoyable > homestead experience and engages the renter to be accountable for > recharging. Offerings from both Midnite and Rubix can be had for less than > $.28 a watt hour retail these days. Impressive times for folks storing > sunshine. The sooner it goes in the sooner the fuel savings and lack of > service calls can start paying it off. > > I always default to Midnite first for quite a few reasons and especially > for `UL9540 but Rubix might be a better solution in this case since that > volatile memory Steve mentions might become a concern if a trained > individual isn't frequently checking up on the system to make sure all the > settings are still in tune with the battery. Besides for LBCO, SW default > settings are quite ideal for all of the Rubix series. You also gain the > bonus of a digital net power meter on the battery to validate the SW's > meter screens along with the Outback logging menu. > > Nick > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 10:21 AM David Coale via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Wrenchers, > > I have a client with an old off-grid Trace system and he is having trouble > with the batteries. He has HUP Solar One FLA batteries that are about 4 > years old, so they should be in good shape. The last set lasted almost 20 > years with a fair amount of abuse. > > Here is he history and what I think is going on. 7/21 they got new > batteries after about 19 years of use. > > 7/22 I get a call saying the batteries are not charging up all the way. > When I check out the system, the batteries needed cleaning, and I found > three low cells, and the charger settings were back to default, not set > high enough to charge the batteries all the way (it’s always multiple > problems). The client (now a new renter, new to the system) said he was > filing the batteries once a month and experienced some overflowing when the > batteries were charged up. > > I cleaned things up, reset the charging parameters and set up an > equalizing charge to even out the cells. Hopefully this will fix things. > > 11/25. The client calls and said the batteries don’t charge up all the way > and he is running the generator a lot and worried about getting though the > wintertime. > When I check things out, there are three bad cells and there is soda on > the batteries. It is hard to get a good voltage readings because of the > soda. Most of the cells are reading 2.1 volts under about a 40 amp load. > > Yesterday I check things out, and all the cells are reading between 1.93 > to 1.98 under a 40 amp load in the morning, and I don’t find any bad > cells. The charging voltage is never going over about 52 volts so the > system is never getting fully charged up. The charge setting look OK, so > not sure what is going on. This is acting like an old battery pack but > these batteries are relatively new. > > My guess at this point is that maybe the batteries lost acid with the > overflowing event and lost capacity. Maybe adding acid back in would bring > them back up to working order. The SG measured at 1.150 or less. > > At this point the client (renter) has had enough of these battery problems > and is wondering every morning if the batteries will last long enough to > until the sun comes up. The renter is pushing for a replacement LFP > battery, but there should be lots of life left in this battery pack. > > Let me know what you all think. > > Thanks, > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 17:01:07 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2025 14:01:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFXR3648A battery charging In-Reply-To: References: <135daac15d7e984b73fa47b0b0baba50@mail.gmail.com> <1292772B-DCA8-47BE-821A-3B6D2B98DA23@gmail.com> <9fa52d1f811d96f25059e1655df7d072@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, wrenches, As l am sure you know the pv comes from the CC and the gen charge cones from the inverter., I would suggest digging into the mate and look at the setting in the inverter, make sure you have it set to gen not grid and all your settings are gen. Resetting would be way down the list to do. Fun times On Sat, Dec 13, 2025, 1:53 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The other setting that could affect this is the DC Generator Setting in > the AGS menu. > > For a Normal 48V system, this is generally set to around 70volts... Many > see this and panic and set it down. Even if you have DC Gen set to no, > it'll still affect charging. > > This screenshot is assuming 24V... > > [image: image.png] > > > If they have the DC Gen set to 52 volts, it'll charge to 52 for a time and > then shut off. > > > > *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* > *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 > *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > > > On Sat, Dec 13, 2025 at 1:17 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jay: >> >> >> >> Thanks for that. I always thought re-bulk only applied if you had 24/7 >> AC input which we do not. I made the adjustment and we will see what >> happens. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] >> *Sent:* Saturday, December 13, 2025 12:11 PM >> *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] VFXR3648A battery charging >> >> >> >> You have to set the rebulk volts higher, higher than what ever you start >> the generator. >> >> >> >> Say 56 or so. >> >> >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Dec 13, 2025, at 11:56 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I have a client with one VFXR3648A inverter off-grid with PV and a >> generator. The inverter is set to bulk at 58.2 VDC for 2 hours but when >> the generator is required the voltage never gets above 52 VDC. The PV gets >> the voltage up to the 58 volt zone reliable. >> >> >> >> The original generator was a portable of about 3 Kw. I thought it was >> not providing enough RMS power so we upgraded to a Kohler vertical shaft 12 >> kW air cooled unit. The problem is still the same: The bulk voltage of >> the batteries never gets above 52 VDC. >> >> >> >> On my next visit I plan on resetting the inverter to factory defaults. >> Other than that I am not sure what to try. I have little luck reaching >> Outback tech support in the last year so I am hoping someone here can >> provide some advice. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 351678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sun Dec 14 12:50:54 2025 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2025 12:50:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm In-Reply-To: References: <793CB494-CA4A-4CE4-9CDC-A03A462DF72D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Steve, A third question. Would this also be a possibility with a Little Rosie and the MNGP2 settings. My customer was complaining about the same thing, not getting a Fortress e-flex to fully charge to 54.4. He was having generator problems and failed L16 batteries with a VFX3524. It turns out the inverter was fine but with the bad generator output (fluctuating between 116vac and 124) we decided to upgrade the whole system with the MNLR4548 and MNPOWERFLO16 but are using a single eFlex 5.4 while waiting for the bigger battery to arrive. We did have a problem initially with the LR locking on the generator but found that the LR was set for GRID. When changing it to GEN OFF GRID it locked on to that crazy generator as the Outback had in the past. Customer called yesterday saying the generator was fixed and all is good. An unrelated note: When we first fired up the Little Rosie, the MNGP2 was blank (off). Turned out to be a defective comm cable. Lesson learned was not to panic but carry a spare cable just in case. John B On Sat, Dec 13, 2025 at 4:56 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Oddly, we have two questions where the Outback is only getting to 52 > volts. I mentioned in the other thread that these could be the DC Generator > Voltage settings. I'd say it here as well. > > Please check the DC Gen settings in the AGS. For a 48V system, set it to > 76V if you are using an AC Genny. > > > > > *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* > *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 > *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > > > On Sat, Dec 13, 2025 at 12:08 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I spent decades talking folks through recovering HUPs that had been >> chronically under charged. The fact that the batteries are just hovering >> around 52 v and not breaking out above that is another sign that there is >> capacity left. Its when they charge right up to 58 v and go into float >> before 10 AM that you have no capacity left. That hovering at partial SOC >> is because there is not a high enough charge rate. >> >> They need to start the generator in the morning, so that both the >> generator and the solar can work together to have a high enough charge rate. >> >> Equalize, Equalize, Equalize, they will come back to full charge, but yes >> they will have lost some capacity from when they were new. These batteries >> could easily last another 5 years if recovered. >> >> We're not talking 2 to 4 hours of generator charging either, we're >> talking like 12 hours a day possibly, for 3 to 4 days. You just keep going >> until the SG comes up. Period. Then bring them to full charge every week >> to 10 days, and don't let them sit chronically under charged again. >> >> >> More solar or a drastic weight loss program is the only way to make this >> system work long term. >> >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> >> On 12/13/2025 12:13 PM, pieter offgridenterprises.org via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> I couldn't agree more with Ray. Those batteries are tough. Assuming there >> is adequate charging capacity the batteries have a very good chance of >> recovering. That being said the renter has to be trained! Simply spending >> more money to replace the Hup batteries wit a set of new LIPO batteries >> will most likely trade one problem for another. As others have already >> pointed out: If energy in is less than energy out the batteries will not be >> able to make up the difference. Even LIPO batteries. >> Pieter Huebner >> Project Manager >> Off Grid Enerprises >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches >> on behalf of Nick Lucchese >> via RE-wrenches >> >> *Sent:* Friday, December 12, 2025 11:41 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> >> *Cc:* Nick Lucchese >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] FLA battery problelm >> >> Are you able to get near the 75 amp charge rate with the SW's charger and >> that 7.5 KW generator with a step down transformer maybe? Neither charging >> combos can push the voltage above 52? All the bus bars and hardware have >> been cleaned and reassembled recently or not since 2022? Have you made any >> other observations looking over that 128 day logging menu? >> >> Battery banks prematurely heading to the smelter is the unfortunate >> reality of our systems of the past. Chasing that mostly unrealistic goal >> that the bank will do some dramatic turn around to redeem everyone's >> efforts may likely result in more wasted time and money. Replacing with a >> lithium pack that offer's it's own onboard SOC capacity meter is almost a >> necessity with renters. Removing the unknown cloud around >> understanding what the battery needs results in a much more enjoyable >> homestead experience and engages the renter to be accountable for >> recharging. Offerings from both Midnite and Rubix can be had for less than >> $.28 a watt hour retail these days. Impressive times for folks storing >> sunshine. The sooner it goes in the sooner the fuel savings and lack of >> service calls can start paying it off. >> >> I always default to Midnite first for quite a few reasons and especially >> for `UL9540 but Rubix might be a better solution in this case since that >> volatile memory Steve mentions might become a concern if a trained >> individual isn't frequently checking up on the system to make sure all the >> settings are still in tune with the battery. Besides for LBCO, SW default >> settings are quite ideal for all of the Rubix series. You also gain the >> bonus of a digital net power meter on the battery to validate the SW's >> meter screens along with the Outback logging menu. >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 10:21 AM David Coale via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi Wrenchers, >> >> I have a client with an old off-grid Trace system and he is having >> trouble with the batteries. He has HUP Solar One FLA batteries that are >> about 4 years old, so they should be in good shape. The last set lasted >> almost 20 years with a fair amount of abuse. >> >> Here is he history and what I think is going on. 7/21 they got new >> batteries after about 19 years of use. >> >> 7/22 I get a call saying the batteries are not charging up all the way. >> When I check out the system, the batteries needed cleaning, and I found >> three low cells, and the charger settings were back to default, not set >> high enough to charge the batteries all the way (it’s always multiple >> problems). The client (now a new renter, new to the system) said he was >> filing the batteries once a month and experienced some overflowing when the >> batteries were charged up. >> >> I cleaned things up, reset the charging parameters and set up an >> equalizing charge to even out the cells. Hopefully this will fix things. >> >> 11/25. The client calls and said the batteries don’t charge up all the >> way and he is running the generator a lot and worried about getting though >> the wintertime. >> When I check things out, there are three bad cells and there is soda on >> the batteries. It is hard to get a good voltage readings because of the >> soda. Most of the cells are reading 2.1 volts under about a 40 amp load. >> >> Yesterday I check things out, and all the cells are reading between 1.93 >> to 1.98 under a 40 amp load in the morning, and I don’t find any bad >> cells. The charging voltage is never going over about 52 volts so the >> system is never getting fully charged up. The charge setting look OK, so >> not sure what is going on. This is acting like an old battery pack but >> these batteries are relatively new. >> >> My guess at this point is that maybe the batteries lost acid with the >> overflowing event and lost capacity. Maybe adding acid back in would bring >> them back up to working order. The SG measured at 1.150 or less. >> >> At this point the client (renter) has had enough of these battery >> problems and is wondering every morning if the batteries will last long >> enough to until the sun comes up. The renter is pushing for a replacement >> LFP battery, but there should be lots of life left in this battery pack. >> >> Let me know what you all think. >> >> Thanks, >> >> David >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Dec 14 14:12:15 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2025 11:12:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFXR3648A battery charging In-Reply-To: References: <135daac15d7e984b73fa47b0b0baba50@mail.gmail.com> <1292772B-DCA8-47BE-821A-3B6D2B98DA23@gmail.com> <9fa52d1f811d96f25059e1655df7d072@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <969e25d8ab50f2510ed3ab0f55d626a6@mail.gmail.com> Jerry/Wrenches: I have another almost identical system on Optics. The other system charges correctly. I compared all of the settings and found one difference: On the problem system the Grid Input was set to Generator. On the functioning system it was set to Support. This should not matter because Input Priority is set to Generator on both. In the Mate, both system are set with identical parameters. The Generator type is AC Generator. Even though this should not apply the DC Absorb Voltage is set to 76 on both. I changed the one different setting: Grid Input from Generator to Support. If the Support setting does not fix the problem it is time for a factory reset. I did note the coincidence of a charge limit of 52 VDC on the two threads. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com] *Sent:* Saturday, December 13, 2025 2:01 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* William Miller; Steve Higgins *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] VFXR3648A battery charging William, wrenches, As l am sure you know the pv comes from the CC and the gen charge cones from the inverter., I would suggest digging into the mate and look at the setting in the inverter, make sure you have it set to gen not grid and all your settings are gen. Resetting would be way down the list to do. Fun times On Sat, Dec 13, 2025, 1:53 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: The other setting that could affect this is the DC Generator Setting in the AGS menu. For a Normal 48V system, this is generally set to around 70volts... Many see this and panic and set it down. Even if you have DC Gen set to no, it'll still affect charging. This screenshot is assuming 24V... [image: image.png] If they have the DC Gen set to 52 volts, it'll charge to 52 for a time and then shut off. *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Sat, Dec 13, 2025 at 1:17 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Jay: Thanks for that. I always thought re-bulk only applied if you had 24/7 AC input which we do not. I made the adjustment and we will see what happens. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] *Sent:* Saturday, December 13, 2025 12:11 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] VFXR3648A battery charging You have to set the rebulk volts higher, higher than what ever you start the generator. Say 56 or so. Jay On Dec 13, 2025, at 11:56 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Friends: I have a client with one VFXR3648A inverter off-grid with PV and a generator. The inverter is set to bulk at 58.2 VDC for 2 hours but when the generator is required the voltage never gets above 52 VDC. The PV gets the voltage up to the 58 volt zone reliable. The original generator was a portable of about 3 Kw. I thought it was not providing enough RMS power so we upgraded to a Kohler vertical shaft 12 kW air cooled unit. The problem is still the same: The bulk voltage of the batteries never gets above 52 VDC. On my next visit I plan on resetting the inverter to factory defaults. Other than that I am not sure what to try. I have little luck reaching Outback tech support in the last year so I am hoping someone here can provide some advice. Thanks in advance. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 477903 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Sun Dec 14 18:23:21 2025 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2025 18:23:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum 4024 PAE inverter w/ ARTR and AGS Message-ID: G'day All, Came across something I haven't seen in the past and I have over 4 dozen PAE units out there. It has to do with the Max Run Time setting on the ARTR or RTR and the Magnum AGS unit. I normally set the Max Run Time (MRT) to 12 hours. It has been my understanding that this MRT value comes into play when it sees the generator input. Then once the genny runs for say 4-6 hours the AGS then tells the genny to stop. I've been under the assumption that once the genny stops, the MRT would reset back to zero to ready itself for the next time the genny runs. What is happening is that the MRT seems to be accumulating for each genny run and then of course once it hits the MRT value you get the "Fault Max Rn". I can't find anywhere in the literature about the MRT value resetting after the genny stops, but I'm confident that this is the case. Can anyone confirm my thought process on this one or has anyone seen anything like this before? Heading out tomorrow with a new ARTR. Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Guy, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sun Dec 14 20:14:56 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2025 17:14:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum 4024 PAE inverter w/ ARTR and AGS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just encountered the same thing. I upgraded a clients Discover AES to a Helios AES and after a few months what you are describing started to occur. I came to the same conclusion and all I could offer my client was "looks like no more AGS for you until we can upgrade to a Victron system. On Sun, Dec 14, 2025 at 3:24 PM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > G'day All, > > Came across something I haven't seen in the past and I have over 4 dozen > PAE units out there. It has to do with the Max Run Time setting on the ARTR > or RTR and the Magnum AGS unit. I normally set the Max Run Time (MRT) to 12 > hours. It has been my understanding that this MRT value comes into play > when it sees the generator input. Then once the genny runs for say 4-6 > hours the AGS then tells the genny to stop. I've been under the > assumption that once the genny stops, the MRT would reset back to zero to > ready itself for the next time the genny runs. What is happening is that > the MRT seems to be accumulating for each genny run and then of course once > it hits the MRT value you get the "Fault Max Rn". I can't find anywhere in > the literature about the MRT value resetting after the genny stops, but I'm > confident that this is the case. Can anyone confirm my thought process on > this one or has anyone seen anything like this before? Heading out tomorrow > with a new ARTR. > > Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Guy, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Chris at OasisMontana.com Wed Dec 17 12:51:22 2025 From: Chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2025 10:51:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Power FLAs to LFPs In-Reply-To: <88a0f361-80f3-4069-b3a6-90530d188008@solarray.com> References: <755099CC-CFEA-4CF3-8EEF-69A5A2C8A2C1@gmail.com> <88a0f361-80f3-4069-b3a6-90530d188008@solarray.com> Message-ID: <014601dc6f7d$c2eb7c00$48c27400$@OasisMontana.com> Dear people: We have a customer in Henryetta, Oklahoma, and he’s been buying various equipment from us over the years. He’s elderly, a veteran, and a believer in solar power. But he’s been having battery problems (he’s got twelve 6V L16 types at present) and is interested in moving up to LFPs. He’s got an Outback VFX3524, FM60, MATE3S, Hub4 and the usual accoutrements. If he wants to go with LFPs, what are your suggestions – and also how might it integrate with his 3-year old inverter? I suspect he will be unwilling to spend a chunk of change on a new inverter. All advice is welcome! Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Wed Dec 17 13:03:34 2025 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2025 18:03:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Outback Power FLAs to LFPs In-Reply-To: <014601dc6f7d$c2eb7c00$48c27400$@OasisMontana.com> References: <755099CC-CFEA-4CF3-8EEF-69A5A2C8A2C1@gmail.com> <88a0f361-80f3-4069-b3a6-90530d188008@solarray.com> <014601dc6f7d$c2eb7c00$48c27400$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Hey Chris, I had a very similar setup at my house although mine was pushing 17 years old. In the end, because of the 24 V system and lack of closed loop communication, I ended up replacing the whole system. I went with Victron and Discover and have been very happy. I had the old MATE, so having an app with full system control is a game changer for me, especially with my extensive travel schedule. There are limited options for 24 V LI batteries (when compared to the 48 V options). I'm sure there are 24 V options out there, but they're never going to have closed loop communication with Outback. I know open loop will most likely work, but having communication where the BMS can drive the charging is far superior. Thanks, Will ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Chris Daum via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2025 12:51 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Chris Daum Subject: [EXTERNAL] [RE-wrenches] Outback Power FLAs to LFPs CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Dear people: We have a customer in Henryetta, Oklahoma, and he’s been buying various equipment from us over the years. He’s elderly, a veteran, and a believer in solar power. But he’s been having battery problems (he’s got twelve 6V L16 types at present) and is interested in moving up to LFPs. He’s got an Outback VFX3524, FM60, MATE3S, Hub4 and the usual accoutrements. If he wants to go with LFPs, what are your suggestions – and also how might it integrate with his 3-year old inverter? I suspect he will be unwilling to spend a chunk of change on a new inverter. All advice is welcome! Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 13:45:43 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2025 10:45:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Power FLAs to LFPs In-Reply-To: <014601dc6f7d$c2eb7c00$48c27400$@OasisMontana.com> References: <014601dc6f7d$c2eb7c00$48c27400$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris I have dozens of people with open loop lithium and older Outback equipment All work flawlessly There still is some incorrect information about the LBCO not working with LFP. That I believe dates from some older LFP designs. All the newer 16 series prismatic LFP work fine with LBCO/outback. As well as all the charge parameters. Jay > On Dec 17, 2025, at 9:54 AM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Dear people: > > We have a customer in Henryetta, Oklahoma, and he’s been buying various equipment from us over the years. He’s elderly, a veteran, and a believer in solar power. But he’s been having battery problems (he’s got twelve 6V L16 types at present) and is interested in moving up to LFPs. He’s got an Outback VFX3524, FM60, MATE3S, Hub4 and the usual accoutrements. If he wants to go with LFPs, what are your suggestions – and also how might it integrate with his 3-year old inverter? I suspect he will be unwilling to spend a chunk of change on a new inverter. All advice is welcome! > > Best, > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 > 406-777-4309 fax > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 14:51:35 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2025 12:51:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Power FLAs to LFPs In-Reply-To: References: <014601dc6f7d$c2eb7c00$48c27400$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: I have used EG4 24V 200Ahr server rack batteries with the same equipment and it works fine. It will do closed loop with Victron if that happens in the future. Good Luck! On Wed, Dec 17, 2025 at 11:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Chris > > I have dozens of people with open loop lithium and older Outback equipment > All work flawlessly > > There still is some incorrect information about the LBCO not working with > LFP. That I believe dates from some older LFP designs. > > All the newer 16 series prismatic LFP work fine with LBCO/outback. > As well as all the charge parameters. > > Jay > > > > On Dec 17, 2025, at 9:54 AM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Dear people: > > > > We have a customer in Henryetta, Oklahoma, and he’s been buying various > equipment from us over the years. He’s elderly, a veteran, and a believer > in solar power. But he’s been having battery problems (he’s got twelve 6V > L16 types at present) and is interested in moving up to LFPs. He’s got an > Outback VFX3524, FM60, MATE3S, Hub4 and the usual accoutrements. If he > wants to go with LFPs, what are your suggestions – and also how might it > integrate with his 3-year old inverter? I suspect he will be unwilling to > spend a chunk of change on a new inverter. All advice is welcome! > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Wed Dec 17 15:13:34 2025 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2025 15:13:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Power FLAs to LFPs In-Reply-To: References: <014601dc6f7d$c2eb7c00$48c27400$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <525a2ed4-ef96-419b-9744-3b787459d9b9@four-winds-energy.com> I'm also running the EG4 server rack 24V 200 Ahr batteries with my old Outback VFX 3524, Classic 250 and Morningstar Genstar 100, all open loop with no problem. It's all a matter of getting the charge settings right and checking on the cell balance periodically. I'll be playing around with programming the Genstar for closed loop soon, should be fine but then, what to do with the Classic.....we'll see how it goes. Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” He who asks a question is a fool for a minute. He who does not ask is a fool for life Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 12/17/2025 2:51 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > I have used EG4 24V 200Ahr server rack batteries with the same > equipment and it works fine.  It will do closed loop with Victron if > that happens in the future. > > Good Luck! > > On Wed, Dec 17, 2025 at 11:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Chris > > I have dozens of people with open loop lithium and older Outback > equipment  All work flawlessly > > There still is some incorrect information about the LBCO not > working with LFP. That I believe dates from some older LFP designs. > > All the newer 16 series prismatic LFP work fine with LBCO/outback. > As well as all the charge parameters. > > Jay > > > >> On Dec 17, 2025, at 9:54 AM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Dear people: >> >> We have a customer in Henryetta, Oklahoma, and he’s been buying >> various equipment from us over the years.  He’s elderly, a >> veteran, and a believer in solar power.  But he’s been having >> battery problems (he’s got twelve 6V L16 types at present) and is >> interested in moving up to LFPs. He’s got an Outback VFX3524, >> FM60, MATE3S, Hub4 and the usual accoutrements.  If he wants to >> go with LFPs, what are your suggestions – and also how might it >> integrate with his 3-year old inverter?  I suspect he will be >> unwilling to spend a chunk of change on a new inverter.  All >> advice is welcome! >> >> Best, >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Wed Dec 17 17:17:46 2025 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2025 22:17:46 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Power FLAs to LFPs In-Reply-To: <525a2ed4-ef96-419b-9744-3b787459d9b9@four-winds-energy.com> References: <014601dc6f7d$c2eb7c00$48c27400$@OasisMontana.com> <525a2ed4-ef96-419b-9744-3b787459d9b9@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: Roy is correct, We have a number of clients with "old school" inverters who have changed to LIPO batteries and they work just fine in open loop set ups. Many of the early Lithium battery BMS systems closed loop communication didn't work well or at all any way. Pieter Huebner Project Manager Off Grid Enterprises ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Roy Butler via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2025 2:13 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Roy Butler Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Power FLAs to LFPs I'm also running the EG4 server rack 24V 200 Ahr batteries with my old Outback VFX 3524, Classic 250 and Morningstar Genstar 100, all open loop with no problem. It's all a matter of getting the charge settings right and checking on the cell balance periodically. I'll be playing around with programming the Genstar for closed loop soon, should be fine but then, what to do with the Classic.....we'll see how it goes. Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” He who asks a question is a fool for a minute. He who does not ask is a fool for life Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 12/17/2025 2:51 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: I have used EG4 24V 200Ahr server rack batteries with the same equipment and it works fine. It will do closed loop with Victron if that happens in the future. Good Luck! On Wed, Dec 17, 2025 at 11:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Chris I have dozens of people with open loop lithium and older Outback equipment All work flawlessly There still is some incorrect information about the LBCO not working with LFP. That I believe dates from some older LFP designs. All the newer 16 series prismatic LFP work fine with LBCO/outback. As well as all the charge parameters. Jay On Dec 17, 2025, at 9:54 AM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Dear people: We have a customer in Henryetta, Oklahoma, and he’s been buying various equipment from us over the years. He’s elderly, a veteran, and a believer in solar power. But he’s been having battery problems (he’s got twelve 6V L16 types at present) and is interested in moving up to LFPs. He’s got an Outback VFX3524, FM60, MATE3S, Hub4 and the usual accoutrements. If he wants to go with LFPs, what are your suggestions – and also how might it integrate with his 3-year old inverter? I suspect he will be unwilling to spend a chunk of change on a new inverter. All advice is welcome! Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 19:54:52 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2025 16:54:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backup house generator Message-ID: Hi all I’m Having trouble figuring out which generator to recommend for someone It’s for a home backup. No solar. My friend wants manual start, and either manual or automatic transfer switch. Doesn’t want it to start automatically. It’s in Oregon so not all that cold and low elevation. About 14kw will do, propane powered. Is there a specific model/brand recommended. Most seem to be set up for auto start with power outage. Just wasn’t sure if the ecogen offgrid is the right choice or if there is something else. Thanks in advance From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 19:59:26 2025 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2025 16:59:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backup house generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have had good luck with the cummins-onan brand of propane fired air cooled generators. You could set the gen to manual run or auto run. We have also had good luck with the liquid cooled kohler 24KW propane unit. Mike On Thu, Dec 18, 2025 at 4:56 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all > > I’m > Having trouble figuring out which generator to recommend for someone > > It’s for a home backup. No solar. > > My friend wants manual start, and either manual or automatic transfer > switch. Doesn’t want it to start automatically. It’s in Oregon so not all > that cold and low elevation. > > About 14kw will do, propane powered. > > Is there a specific model/brand recommended. Most seem to be set up for > auto start with power outage. > Just wasn’t sure if the ecogen offgrid is the right choice or if there is > something else. > > Thanks in advance > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-412-3181 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 21:12:22 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2025 19:12:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backup house generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would recommend talking to the local generator techs. If no one works on it locally, it can quickly become useless or very expensive to repair. Warranties are somewhat useless without local support. Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* On Thu, Dec 18, 2025, 6:00 PM MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We have had good luck with the cummins-onan brand of propane fired air > cooled generators. You could set the gen to manual run or auto run. > We have also had good luck with the liquid cooled kohler 24KW propane unit. > Mike > > On Thu, Dec 18, 2025 at 4:56 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> I’m >> Having trouble figuring out which generator to recommend for someone >> >> It’s for a home backup. No solar. >> >> My friend wants manual start, and either manual or automatic transfer >> switch. Doesn’t want it to start automatically. It’s in Oregon so not all >> that cold and low elevation. >> >> About 14kw will do, propane powered. >> >> Is there a specific model/brand recommended. Most seem to be set up for >> auto start with power outage. >> Just wasn’t sure if the ecogen offgrid is the right choice or if there is >> something else. >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-412-3181 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 21:30:46 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2025 18:30:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backup house generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1B6739AC-DA87-4EE3-B542-81095F869870@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 21:59:33 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2025 18:59:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backup house generator In-Reply-To: <1B6739AC-DA87-4EE3-B542-81095F869870@gmail.com> References: <1B6739AC-DA87-4EE3-B542-81095F869870@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I use Kohler watercooled units starting at the 24, its much quieter and very reliable, can be remotely monitored. The cheaper air cooled units are noisy and some other brands l would suggest to stay far away from. Fun times On Thu, Dec 18, 2025, 6:33 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Good point. I’ll check to see what’s available > > > > On Dec 18, 2025, at 6:14 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I would recommend talking to the local generator techs. If no one works on > it locally, it can quickly become useless or very expensive to repair. > Warranties are somewhat useless without local support. > > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > On Thu, Dec 18, 2025, 6:00 PM MD Electric & Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We have had good luck with the cummins-onan brand of propane fired air >> cooled generators. You could set the gen to manual run or auto run. >> We have also had good luck with the liquid cooled kohler 24KW propane >> unit. >> Mike >> >> On Thu, Dec 18, 2025 at 4:56 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi all >>> >>> I’m >>> Having trouble figuring out which generator to recommend for someone >>> >>> It’s for a home backup. No solar. >>> >>> My friend wants manual start, and either manual or automatic transfer >>> switch. Doesn’t want it to start automatically. It’s in Oregon so not all >>> that cold and low elevation. >>> >>> About 14kw will do, propane powered. >>> >>> Is there a specific model/brand recommended. Most seem to be set up for >>> auto start with power outage. >>> Just wasn’t sure if the ecogen offgrid is the right choice or if there >>> is something else. >>> >>> Thanks in advance >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >> Office: 707-412-3181 >> Cell: 707-684-0064 >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Dec 19 09:02:32 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 14:02:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backup house generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wildcat power has a 15 KW I’ve installed several of them rock solid all generators today are way too expensive controls on this one are really simple. The engine they use is the only one that Toyota will use. It’s Indian made. It’s made for prime power 24 /7 running oilfield reliable. I’ve got a couple diesel and a few of these in the field now and rock solid, not cheap but you get what you pay for. Dana Orzel - dana at solarwork.com - 208.721.7003 > On Dec 18, 2025, at 5:56 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi all > > I’m > Having trouble figuring out which generator to recommend for someone > > It’s for a home backup. No solar. > > My friend wants manual start, and either manual or automatic transfer switch. Doesn’t want it to start automatically. It’s in Oregon so not all that cold and low elevation. > > About 14kw will do, propane powered. > > Is there a specific model/brand recommended. Most seem to be set up for auto start with power outage. > Just wasn’t sure if the ecogen offgrid is the right choice or if there is something else. > > Thanks in advance > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 10:43:52 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 07:43:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback lithium battery Message-ID: <8771E937-AAEE-419B-B93B-8ED53A6AF7EE@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: outback-energy-storage.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62683 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Dec 19 13:10:00 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:10:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ~5,000 amps @ 48 volts Message-ID: Hi everyone, I am still helping an uber wealthy owner determine if he really wants this much power. If he does, do any of you have experience sourcing a 48v battery-combiner on the order of 4500 to 5000 amps? I also want to get clear on how to best wire from batteries to combiner, and from combiner to inverters. I read here on the Wrenches list about some electricians who strategically sized conductor AWG so that resistance matches, which seems straightforward once we get our components mounted and accurate distances can be determined. Can anyone on list provide feedback about that, I really appreciate it! Thank you -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Dec 19 15:12:50 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 15:12:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ~5,000 amps @ 48 volts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't have a definitive answer for you, but I do have additional questions! Have you looked into containerized battery solutions that may have integral bussing? I am not familiar with this market, but it seems like it would be the path of least resistance. What inverters are you planning to use? With the max parallel Sol-Ark 15K inverters (12) or FlexBOSS21 inverters (16), you would "only" reach about 3,300 - 4,000A on the DC side. You could probably get this down programmatically without losing much functionality, if any. This DC ampacity rating suggests a very large battery bank. Are you subject to NFPA 855 residential limitations? I am looking for guidance on how to comply with Chapters 4-9 for residential installations in the easiest, unambiguous way possible. We have many clients interested in large battery banks, but I have resisted taking these jobs because of the seemingly onerous requirements. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:13 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi everyone, > I am still helping an uber wealthy owner determine if he really wants > this much power. If he does, do any of you have experience sourcing a 48v > battery-combiner on the order of 4500 to 5000 amps? > I also want to get clear on how to best wire from batteries to combiner, > and from combiner to inverters. I read here on the Wrenches list about some > electricians who strategically sized conductor AWG so that resistance > matches, which seems straightforward once we get our components mounted and > accurate distances can be determined. Can anyone on list provide feedback > about that, I really appreciate it! > Thank you > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Dec 19 15:32:37 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 12:32:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ~5,000 amps @ 48 volts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Qty 12 of SolArk 18K is the thought. I’m thinking about 400-500kWh battery. I have been in deep, careful conversations with all branches of AHJ such as Planning, Building, and Fire. They all support this design. Fire Dept was the key, as they had final say as to whether they’d allow it. I was pleased to hear that Fire dept prefer this design over 5 disparate systems of 80kWh each and 5 small generators; their logic is that it’s safer to have all the generating equipment in one spot. Understandably they will require a separate Utility Building constructed of fire proof materials, with adequate ventilation, fire suppression, and a heat alarm that’s internet monitored by me. cool idea. On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 12:13 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I don't have a definitive answer for you, but I do have additional > questions! Have you looked into containerized battery solutions that may > have integral bussing? I am not familiar with this market, but it seems > like it would be the path of least resistance. > > What inverters are you planning to use? With the max parallel Sol-Ark 15K > inverters (12) or FlexBOSS21 inverters (16), you would "only" reach about > 3,300 - 4,000A on the DC side. You could probably get this down > programmatically without losing much functionality, if any. > > This DC ampacity rating suggests a very large battery bank. Are you > subject to NFPA 855 residential limitations? I am looking for guidance on > how to comply with Chapters 4-9 for residential installations in the > easiest, unambiguous way possible. We have many clients interested in large > battery banks, but I have resisted taking these jobs because of the > seemingly onerous requirements. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:13 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> I am still helping an uber wealthy owner determine if he really wants >> this much power. If he does, do any of you have experience sourcing a 48v >> battery-combiner on the order of 4500 to 5000 amps? >> I also want to get clear on how to best wire from batteries to >> combiner, and from combiner to inverters. I read here on the Wrenches list >> about some electricians who strategically sized conductor AWG so that >> resistance matches, which seems straightforward once we get our components >> mounted and accurate distances can be determined. Can anyone on list >> provide feedback about that, I really appreciate it! >> Thank you >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Dec 19 15:38:00 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 15:38:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ~5,000 amps @ 48 volts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am envious of this opportunity. Keep us up to date on it! I forgot that the 18K is coming out with the 350A DC charging capability. I'm still thinking that a containerized battery might be something to consider. If using Sol-Ark, presumably you are looking at one of their battery partners. Maybe they can assist with bus options. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 3:32 PM david quattro wrote: > Qty 12 of SolArk 18K is the thought. > I’m thinking about 400-500kWh battery. I have been in deep, careful > conversations with all branches of AHJ such as Planning, Building, and > Fire. They all support this design. Fire Dept was the key, as they had > final say as to whether they’d allow it. I was pleased to hear that Fire > dept prefer this design over 5 disparate systems of 80kWh each and 5 small > generators; their logic is that it’s safer to have all the generating > equipment in one spot. > Understandably they will require a separate Utility Building > constructed of fire proof materials, with adequate ventilation, fire > suppression, and a heat alarm that’s internet monitored by me. cool idea. > > > > On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 12:13 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I don't have a definitive answer for you, but I do have additional >> questions! Have you looked into containerized battery solutions that may >> have integral bussing? I am not familiar with this market, but it seems >> like it would be the path of least resistance. >> >> What inverters are you planning to use? With the max parallel Sol-Ark 15K >> inverters (12) or FlexBOSS21 inverters (16), you would "only" reach about >> 3,300 - 4,000A on the DC side. You could probably get this down >> programmatically without losing much functionality, if any. >> >> This DC ampacity rating suggests a very large battery bank. Are you >> subject to NFPA 855 residential limitations? I am looking for guidance on >> how to comply with Chapters 4-9 for residential installations in the >> easiest, unambiguous way possible. We have many clients interested in large >> battery banks, but I have resisted taking these jobs because of the >> seemingly onerous requirements. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:13 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi everyone, >>> I am still helping an uber wealthy owner determine if he really wants >>> this much power. If he does, do any of you have experience sourcing a 48v >>> battery-combiner on the order of 4500 to 5000 amps? >>> I also want to get clear on how to best wire from batteries to >>> combiner, and from combiner to inverters. I read here on the Wrenches list >>> about some electricians who strategically sized conductor AWG so that >>> resistance matches, which seems straightforward once we get our components >>> mounted and accurate distances can be determined. Can anyone on list >>> provide feedback about that, I really appreciate it! >>> Thank you >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Dec 19 15:57:29 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 15:57:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ~5,000 amps @ 48 volts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why 48v, why not commercial DC, like 850? What are you looking at for kwh storage? A1000vdc buss, homemade or otherwise, would drop the buss rating down to about 300 A. Commercial grade inverters, such as 3-phase Delta PCS inverters are spec'ed for these situations. On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:13 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi everyone, > I am still helping an uber wealthy owner determine if he really wants > this much power. If he does, do any of you have experience sourcing a 48v > battery-combiner on the order of 4500 to 5000 amps? > I also want to get clear on how to best wire from batteries to combiner, > and from combiner to inverters. I read here on the Wrenches list about some > electricians who strategically sized conductor AWG so that resistance > matches, which seems straightforward once we get our components mounted and > accurate distances can be determined. Can anyone on list provide feedback > about that, I really appreciate it! > Thank you > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 16:50:28 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 13:50:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ~5,000 amps @ 48 volts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A couple or three Discover HVs and Sol-Ark 60ks. Done quickly On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:00 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Why 48v, why not commercial DC, like 850? What are you looking at for kwh > storage? A1000vdc buss, homemade or otherwise, would drop the buss rating > down to about 300 A. Commercial grade inverters, such as 3-phase Delta PCS > inverters are spec'ed for these situations. > > On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:13 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> I am still helping an uber wealthy owner determine if he really wants >> this much power. If he does, do any of you have experience sourcing a 48v >> battery-combiner on the order of 4500 to 5000 amps? >> I also want to get clear on how to best wire from batteries to >> combiner, and from combiner to inverters. I read here on the Wrenches list >> about some electricians who strategically sized conductor AWG so that >> resistance matches, which seems straightforward once we get our components >> mounted and accurate distances can be determined. Can anyone on list >> provide feedback about that, I really appreciate it! >> Thank you >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Dec 19 17:23:41 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 14:23:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ~5,000 amps @ 48 volts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’ve thought about HV and 60K model, but my loads are 240 Single phase, across 5 separate contiguous parcels. all these homes already have their own utility meters. There is one owner. The plan is to have an ATS at each meter. Regarding 3 phase offgrid, I’ve been concerned about phase imbalance. Maybe I don’t need to worry about that. On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:51 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > A couple or three Discover HVs and Sol-Ark 60ks. Done quickly > > On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:00 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Why 48v, why not commercial DC, like 850? What are you looking at for kwh >> storage? A1000vdc buss, homemade or otherwise, would drop the buss rating >> down to about 300 A. Commercial grade inverters, such as 3-phase Delta PCS >> inverters are spec'ed for these situations. >> >> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:13 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi everyone, >>> I am still helping an uber wealthy owner determine if he really wants >>> this much power. If he does, do any of you have experience sourcing a 48v >>> battery-combiner on the order of 4500 to 5000 amps? >>> I also want to get clear on how to best wire from batteries to >>> combiner, and from combiner to inverters. I read here on the Wrenches list >>> about some electricians who strategically sized conductor AWG so that >>> resistance matches, which seems straightforward once we get our components >>> mounted and accurate distances can be determined. Can anyone on list >>> provide feedback about that, I really appreciate it! >>> Thank you >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric Inc > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 1116835 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Dec 19 17:42:45 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 17:42:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ~5,000 amps @ 48 volts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I’ve done one large off grid system with 480 -3 - phase inverters and 1 mwh, 850 vdc LFP storage. We created 240vac by stepping each 480v L-L phase down to 240 through its own transformer of proper size. So we have three 240/120 VAC panels for typical household loads. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 5:25 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I’ve thought about HV and 60K model, but my loads are 240 Single phase, > across 5 separate contiguous parcels. all these homes already have their > own utility meters. There is one owner. The plan is to have an ATS at > each meter. > Regarding 3 phase offgrid, I’ve been concerned about phase imbalance. > Maybe I don’t need to worry about that. > > > > On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:51 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> A couple or three Discover HVs and Sol-Ark 60ks. Done quickly >> >> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:00 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Why 48v, why not commercial DC, like 850? What are you looking at for >>> kwh storage? A1000vdc buss, homemade or otherwise, would drop the buss >>> rating down to about 300 A. Commercial grade inverters, such as 3-phase >>> Delta PCS inverters are spec'ed for these situations. >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:13 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi everyone, >>>> I am still helping an uber wealthy owner determine if he really >>>> wants this much power. If he does, do any of you have experience sourcing a >>>> 48v battery-combiner on the order of 4500 to 5000 amps? >>>> I also want to get clear on how to best wire from batteries to >>>> combiner, and from combiner to inverters. I read here on the Wrenches list >>>> about some electricians who strategically sized conductor AWG so that >>>> resistance matches, which seems straightforward once we get our components >>>> mounted and accurate distances can be determined. Can anyone on list >>>> provide feedback about that, I really appreciate it! >>>> Thank you >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>> >>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>> >>> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >>> >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> >>> 802.559.1225 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> Morningstar Electric Inc >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> CSLB 1116835 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Dec 19 17:45:29 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 14:45:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ~5,000 amps @ 48 volts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk, it sounds like phase imbalance is not a problem On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 2:42 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > Hi, > I’ve done one large off grid system with 480 -3 - phase inverters and 1 > mwh, 850 vdc LFP storage. > > We created 240vac by stepping each 480v L-L phase down to 240 through its > own transformer of proper size. > So we have three 240/120 VAC panels for typical household loads. > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > > On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 5:25 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I’ve thought about HV and 60K model, but my loads are 240 Single phase, >> across 5 separate contiguous parcels. all these homes already have their >> own utility meters. There is one owner. The plan is to have an ATS at >> each meter. >> Regarding 3 phase offgrid, I’ve been concerned about phase imbalance. >> Maybe I don’t need to worry about that. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:51 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> A couple or three Discover HVs and Sol-Ark 60ks. Done quickly >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:00 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Why 48v, why not commercial DC, like 850? What are you looking at for >>>> kwh storage? A1000vdc buss, homemade or otherwise, would drop the buss >>>> rating down to about 300 A. Commercial grade inverters, such as 3-phase >>>> Delta PCS inverters are spec'ed for these situations. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:13 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>> I am still helping an uber wealthy owner determine if he really >>>>> wants this much power. If he does, do any of you have experience sourcing a >>>>> 48v battery-combiner on the order of 4500 to 5000 amps? >>>>> I also want to get clear on how to best wire from batteries to >>>>> combiner, and from combiner to inverters. I read here on the Wrenches list >>>>> about some electricians who strategically sized conductor AWG so that >>>>> resistance matches, which seems straightforward once we get our components >>>>> mounted and accurate distances can be determined. Can anyone on list >>>>> provide feedback about that, I really appreciate it! >>>>> Thank you >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>>> >>>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>>> >>>> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >>>> >>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>>> >>>> 802.559.1225 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Michael Morningstar >>> >>> >>> Morningstar Electric Inc >>> >>> PO Box 1494 >>> >>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >>> >>> 530-921-0560 >>> >>> CSLB 1116835 >>> >>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Dec 19 17:49:24 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 17:49:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ~5,000 amps @ 48 volts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I do think the Electrician tried to balance the loads in the three 240 V panels, but how close he really came especially with add-ons down the road I don’t know. It does work fine, and the system is 5+ years old now without any issues. *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 5:46 PM david quattro wrote: > Kirk, it sounds like phase imbalance is not a problem > > On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 2:42 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > >> Hi, >> I’ve done one large off grid system with 480 -3 - phase inverters and 1 >> mwh, 850 vdc LFP storage. >> >> We created 240vac by stepping each 480v L-L phase down to 240 through >> its own transformer of proper size. >> So we have three 240/120 VAC panels for typical household loads. >> >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 5:25 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I’ve thought about HV and 60K model, but my loads are 240 Single phase, >>> across 5 separate contiguous parcels. all these homes already have their >>> own utility meters. There is one owner. The plan is to have an ATS at >>> each meter. >>> Regarding 3 phase offgrid, I’ve been concerned about phase imbalance. >>> Maybe I don’t need to worry about that. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:51 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> A couple or three Discover HVs and Sol-Ark 60ks. Done quickly >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:00 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Why 48v, why not commercial DC, like 850? What are you looking at for >>>>> kwh storage? A1000vdc buss, homemade or otherwise, would drop the buss >>>>> rating down to about 300 A. Commercial grade inverters, such as 3-phase >>>>> Delta PCS inverters are spec'ed for these situations. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:13 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>> I am still helping an uber wealthy owner determine if he really >>>>>> wants this much power. If he does, do any of you have experience sourcing a >>>>>> 48v battery-combiner on the order of 4500 to 5000 amps? >>>>>> I also want to get clear on how to best wire from batteries to >>>>>> combiner, and from combiner to inverters. I read here on the Wrenches list >>>>>> about some electricians who strategically sized conductor AWG so that >>>>>> resistance matches, which seems straightforward once we get our components >>>>>> mounted and accurate distances can be determined. Can anyone on list >>>>>> provide feedback about that, I really appreciate it! >>>>>> Thank you >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>>>> >>>>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>>>> >>>>> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >>>>> >>>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>>>> >>>>> 802.559.1225 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Michael Morningstar >>>> >>>> >>>> Morningstar Electric Inc >>>> >>>> PO Box 1494 >>>> >>>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >>>> >>>> 530-921-0560 >>>> >>>> CSLB 1116835 >>>> >>>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Dec 19 23:15:54 2025 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 20:15:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backup house generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A generac from costco. Circuit breaker to defeat autostart. -many dealers will install a 22kw generac for 125 per month up this way. Propane or natural. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2025-12-18 4:54 pm, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi all > > I'm > Having trouble figuring out which generator to recommend for someone > > It's for a home backup. No solar. > > My friend wants manual start, and either manual or automatic transfer > switch. Doesn't want it to start automatically. It's in Oregon so not > all that cold and low elevation. > > About 14kw will do, propane powered. > > Is there a specific model/brand recommended. Most seem to be set up for > auto start with power outage. > Just wasn't sure if the ecogen offgrid is the right choice or if there > is something else. > > Thanks in advance > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 23:26:07 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 20:26:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ~5,000 amps @ 48 volts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting exercise here, 5000 amps at 48 vdc, this would be 20+ Fortress evault max 48 vdc cabinets and l dont think you can put that many on the BMS. What service does he have, a 3 phase 120/208, 277/480, a 120 208 3 phase it would be around 600 + meter main, single phase close to a 1000, amps. You may want to consider a commercial solark inverter as l recall they are high voltage DC, It would be more efficient, smaller and less copper wire even with a transformer to step it down. Get more info on this existing service, voltage, phases, gets us all out of our boxes and thinking. Fun times On Fri, Dec 19, 2025, 2:49 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I do think the Electrician tried to balance the loads in the three 240 V > panels, but how close he really came especially with add-ons down the road > I don’t know. It does work fine, and the system is 5+ years old now without > any issues. > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > > > On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 5:46 PM david quattro > wrote: > >> Kirk, it sounds like phase imbalance is not a problem >> >> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 2:42 PM Kirk Herander >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> I’ve done one large off grid system with 480 -3 - phase inverters and 1 >>> mwh, 850 vdc LFP storage. >>> >>> We created 240vac by stepping each 480v L-L phase down to 240 through >>> its own transformer of proper size. >>> So we have three 240/120 VAC panels for typical household loads. >>> >>> >>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>> >>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>> >>> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >>> >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> >>> 802.559.1225 >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 5:25 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I’ve thought about HV and 60K model, but my loads are 240 Single phase, >>>> across 5 separate contiguous parcels. all these homes already have their >>>> own utility meters. There is one owner. The plan is to have an ATS at >>>> each meter. >>>> Regarding 3 phase offgrid, I’ve been concerned about phase >>>> imbalance. Maybe I don’t need to worry about that. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:51 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> A couple or three Discover HVs and Sol-Ark 60ks. Done quickly >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:00 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Why 48v, why not commercial DC, like 850? What are you looking at for >>>>>> kwh storage? A1000vdc buss, homemade or otherwise, would drop the buss >>>>>> rating down to about 300 A. Commercial grade inverters, such as 3-phase >>>>>> Delta PCS inverters are spec'ed for these situations. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:13 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>> I am still helping an uber wealthy owner determine if he really >>>>>>> wants this much power. If he does, do any of you have experience sourcing a >>>>>>> 48v battery-combiner on the order of 4500 to 5000 amps? >>>>>>> I also want to get clear on how to best wire from batteries to >>>>>>> combiner, and from combiner to inverters. I read here on the Wrenches list >>>>>>> about some electricians who strategically sized conductor AWG so that >>>>>>> resistance matches, which seems straightforward once we get our components >>>>>>> mounted and accurate distances can be determined. Can anyone on list >>>>>>> provide feedback about that, I really appreciate it! >>>>>>> Thank you >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>>>>> >>>>>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>>>>> >>>>>> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >>>>>> >>>>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>>>>> >>>>>> 802.559.1225 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Michael Morningstar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Morningstar Electric Inc >>>>> >>>>> PO Box 1494 >>>>> >>>>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >>>>> >>>>> 530-921-0560 >>>>> >>>>> CSLB 1116835 >>>>> >>>>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 11:01:40 2025 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2025 08:01:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Ion BMU issue request In-Reply-To: References: <84428439-1ab0-449d-ab1e-397193a27656@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: To all the blue planet installers and to the wrenches too, Blue planet is not the first nor will it be the last to terminate a product line. I personally have been installing blue planet from befor the 16 was released. I have only one issue with a system we had 6 16 k and one had a battery issue, quickly resolved and back up, no BMU issues so far ever so its a difficult call to drop the cash to sit on your shelf or not. It may be very valuable to have one down the road, look at Apple, Microsoft or maybe a Saab or Desoto. To invest or not to and thats the bottom line. For me as much as would like to have a spare l dont think l can right now. Fun times On Tue, Dec 9, 2025, 12:22 AM Mark Downing via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > All detailed in here > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, December 8, 2025 10:33 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Sam Haraldson > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Blue Ion BMU issue request > > Good Morning, Allan, > > I'll share my limited insight in hopes it proves valuable to you. > > Have you had any Blue Ion battery or BMU failures? If so, how many > systems have you installed, and how many failures have you had? What > failed, and what did you do to resolve the issue? If you replaced a BMU, > was the process straightforward, and were you given a complete set of > documentation with the unit? Was the factory warranty process honored? > > > We have nine sites with Blue Ion installed. These range in size from a > single battery module up to 48 modules. They are mated to a range of > chargers and inverters from Outback, Magnum, Midnite, Schneider, and > Sol-Ark. We have only experienced an issue at a single site and that was a > battery module. Blue Ion was extremely attentive from a customer service > perspective. They mailed problem-specific testing equipment along with > the RMA'ed parts, provided live customer-support during the testing, and > provided return shipping. All was covered by warranty (I do not know if > there was a labor reimbursement). > > On a related track, how have you responded to Blue Planet's offer? Does it > come across as a valid solution? Have you bought one or more spare BMUs? > How are you supporting your Blue Ion customers going forward? Have you > received support of any kind from Blue Planet? > > > Our company took the same approach you did, sending an email to our > customer base informing them to consider purchasing a back up BMU. To the > best of my knowledge only one of our customers has opted to purchase a > back-up and they are an energy utility with two large, high-consequence > systems that easily warrants the ROI. We as a company are leaning toward > not purchasing one to "have in stock". > > Sincerely, > Sam > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > Sam Haraldson > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Dec 20 11:35:22 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2025 11:35:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Ion BMU issue request In-Reply-To: References: <84428439-1ab0-449d-ab1e-397193a27656@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Related: I've been trying to contact BPE tech support (Jody) for months and no response, reason being a failure of the Namaka gateway, outstanding for a year. Any idea of how to get the attention of BP support people? Thanks. On Sat, Dec 20, 2025 at 11:05 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > To all the blue planet installers and to the wrenches too, > Blue planet is not the first nor will it be the last to terminate a > product line. > I personally have been installing blue planet from befor the 16 was > released. I have only one issue with a system we had 6 16 k and one had a > battery issue, quickly resolved and back up, no BMU issues so far ever so > its a difficult call to drop the cash to sit on your shelf or not. It may > be very valuable to have one down the road, look at Apple, Microsoft or > maybe a Saab or Desoto. To invest or not to and thats the bottom line. For > me as much as would like to have a spare l dont think l can right now. > Fun times > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2025, 12:22 AM Mark Downing via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> All detailed in here >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Sent:* Monday, December 8, 2025 10:33 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Sam Haraldson >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Blue Ion BMU issue request >> >> Good Morning, Allan, >> >> I'll share my limited insight in hopes it proves valuable to you. >> >> Have you had any Blue Ion battery or BMU failures? If so, how many >> systems have you installed, and how many failures have you had? What >> failed, and what did you do to resolve the issue? If you replaced a BMU, >> was the process straightforward, and were you given a complete set of >> documentation with the unit? Was the factory warranty process honored? >> >> >> We have nine sites with Blue Ion installed. These range in size from a >> single battery module up to 48 modules. They are mated to a range of >> chargers and inverters from Outback, Magnum, Midnite, Schneider, and >> Sol-Ark. We have only experienced an issue at a single site and that was a >> battery module. Blue Ion was extremely attentive from a customer service >> perspective. They mailed problem-specific testing equipment along with >> the RMA'ed parts, provided live customer-support during the testing, and >> provided return shipping. All was covered by warranty (I do not know if >> there was a labor reimbursement). >> >> On a related track, how have you responded to Blue Planet's offer? Does >> it come across as a valid solution? Have you bought one or more spare BMUs? >> How are you supporting your Blue Ion customers going forward? Have you >> received support of any kind from Blue Planet? >> >> >> Our company took the same approach you did, sending an email to our >> customer base informing them to consider purchasing a back up BMU. To the >> best of my knowledge only one of our customers has opted to purchase a >> back-up and they are an energy utility with two large, high-consequence >> systems that easily warrants the ROI. We as a company are leaning toward >> not purchasing one to "have in stock". >> >> Sincerely, >> Sam >> >> [image: OnSite Energy] >> >> Sam Haraldson >> Operations Specialist >> (406) 551-6135 >> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >> >> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >> [image: B Corporation] >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Dec 20 14:11:33 2025 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2025 11:11:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Ion BMU issue request In-Reply-To: References: <84428439-1ab0-449d-ab1e-397193a27656@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <6a2eecca-9228-4041-b2e0-f99a72ac2468@sindelarsolar.com> Esteemed Wrenches, Following up on this thread that I started in early December: I sent an email to my seven former Blue Planet customers, that included the texts of BPE's website homepage announcement of shutting down operations and the letter offering spare BMUs on closeout. I remained neutral, equating the offer to buying insurance that you hope never to need. Three customers responded, and I spoke with three more by phone, with one yet to reply. All six are fully satisfied with their BPE batteries, except for one client's expressed difficulty with the loss of the online portal interpreting the E-Gauge information. None has had any failures or issues since installation. Three of the six chose to order a spare BMU, each of whom has the financial means to buy it. I'll act as a pass-through, with no markup. I expected more response on this list, given all of the discussions regarding LiFP suppliers and results with other brands. The dearth of discussion suggests to me that there have been very few issues with the products and with the support while BPE was still in operation. The only contact I have at what's left of BPE is my former Regional Sales Manager, Lori Ann Saunders, lori at blueplanetenergy.com. Allan On 12/20/2025 8:01 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > To all the blue planet installers and to the wrenches too, > Blue planet is not the first nor will it be the last to terminate a > product line. > I personally have been installing blue planet from befor the 16 was > released. I have only one issue with a system we had 6 16 k and one > had a battery issue, quickly resolved and back up, no BMU issues so > far ever so its a difficult call to drop the cash to sit on your shelf > or not. It may be very valuable to have one down the road, look at > Apple, Microsoft or maybe a Saab or Desoto. To invest or not to and > that's the bottom line. For me as much as would like to have a spare l > don't think l can right now. > Fun times > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2025, 12:22 AM Mark Downing via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > All detailed in here > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on > behalf of Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches > > *Sent:* Monday, December 8, 2025 10:33 AM > Good Morning, Allan, > I'll share my limited insight in hopes it proves valuable to you. > > Have you had any Blue Ion battery or BMU failures?  If so, how > many systems have you installed, and how many failures have > you had? What failed, and what did you do to resolve the > issue? If you replaced a BMU, was the process straightforward, > and were you given a complete set of documentation with the > unit? Was the factory warranty process honored? > > We have nine sites with Blue Ion installed. These range in size > from a single battery module up to 48 modules.  They are mated to > a range of chargers and inverters from Outback, Magnum, Midnite, > Schneider, and Sol-Ark.  We have only experienced an issue at a > single site and that was a battery module.  Blue Ion was extremely > attentive from a customer service perspective.  They mailed > problem-specific testing equipment along with the RMA'ed parts, > provided live customer-support during the testing, and provided > return shipping. All was covered by warranty (I do not know if > there was a labor reimbursement). > > On a related track, how have you responded to Blue Planet's > offer? Does it come across as a valid solution? Have you > bought one or more spare BMUs? How are you supporting your > Blue Ion customers going forward? Have you received support of > any kind from Blue Planet? > > Our company took the same approach you did, sending an email to > our customer base informing them to consider purchasing a back up > BMU.  To the best of my knowledge only one of our customers has > opted to purchase a back-up and they are an energy utility with > two large, high-consequence systems that easily warrants the ROI.  > We as a company are leaning toward not purchasing one to "have in > stock". > Sincerely, > Sam > > OnSite Energy > Sam Haraldson > Operations Specialist > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > B Corporation > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > Ceck out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Sat Dec 20 17:33:52 2025 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2025 15:33:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New Outback lithium battery Message-ID: jay.peltz at gmail.com spotted an Outback branded battery with unusually named lithium chemistry. Jay linked us to a press release. The bottom of the release indicates the nominal voltage will be 103.5 v (28 cells in series at 3.7 volts per cell). Some non-standard electronics may be in the offing, but it's still a good catch, Jay. Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 18:04:36 2025 From: lucchesesolar at gmail.com (Nick Lucchese) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2025 15:04:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Ion BMU issue request In-Reply-To: <6a2eecca-9228-4041-b2e0-f99a72ac2468@sindelarsolar.com> References: <84428439-1ab0-449d-ab1e-397193a27656@sindelarsolar.com> <6a2eecca-9228-4041-b2e0-f99a72ac2468@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Greetings Allan, Sorry for the lack of response to your inquiry a few weeks back. Starting in 2017 I too have had impressive success and support from the BPE folks. 88 cabinets installed over 53 sites. One BMU failure on my second install but it wasn't a true failure of the main hardware. Somehow too much current tried to find it's way through the momentary start button and burned up the small 18 gauge (or similar) conductors. A fix was shipped and power was immediately restored to the site. Never turned off actually, only downtime was for the swap. Only noticed because the client reported a strong burning smell so I returned to the site to find the surprise. Another site's BMU failed on a newly installed system about 2 years ago. This one appeared to have occurred due to excessive current beyond what the BMU is rated for. Although it was a commonly successful inverter pairing with an 8 KW Radian, there was evidence that the tenants were frequently not paying attention to consumption habits and there was datalogs (Egauge and Vue) of brief moments near 10 KW's of consumption. At first BPE hesitated a bit and noted that it would not automatically be covered until they could perform a failure analysis on the returned unit but ultimately they took care of me. Jody and the crew always supported me and always felt like an extended family. Some may or may not remember but there was even a brief period on their website that stated "we don't believe in fine print". I also had one Sony battery module fail about 5 years ago. Luckily it was on my own system otherwise I might not have believed it or found it so easily. Once again a replacement was sent out immediately and I never had any other failures with the batteries. Once I had a single battery LED status light go from green to blinking orange but upon their advice powered down the HI cabinet and the problem was never to be seen again. Due to a few clients selling properties and others wanting to double capacity in their 8 KWH cabinets I have now found myself with two empty cabinets therefore I can rely on those as backups should a BMU failure occur. Additionally, with a Midnite Powerflo16 now being barely just 3x what a replacement BMU costs it seems there is plenty of strategy to just stock Powerflos and play the swap game with other clients as necessary. Part of me would like to have another BMU on my shelf and I can see the security of having one but too many times I've spent thousands of dollars only to have unsellable inventory years later. I hope Blue Planet comes back and they can offer a drop in replacement that would allow us to not have to alter the mechanical rooms but I imagine these batteries still have many useful years of service ahead of them. Obviously would be some implications of placing more than 20 KWH's in a single cabinet but sure would be nice to leave them in place once the batteries need to be replaced. Based on conclusions in the ITP test years ago the Forelion cells seemed quite promising. Sure seems like our Blue Ion sites are in a good position for continued success. Nick On Sat, Dec 20, 2025 at 11:13 AM Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches, > Following up on this thread that I started in early December: I sent an > email to my seven former Blue Planet customers, that included the texts of > BPE's website homepage announcement of shutting down operations and the > letter offering spare BMUs on closeout. I remained neutral, equating the > offer to buying insurance that you hope never to need. Three customers > responded, and I spoke with three more by phone, with one yet to reply. All > six are fully satisfied with their BPE batteries, except for one client's > expressed difficulty with the loss of the online portal interpreting the > E-Gauge information. None has had any failures or issues since > installation. > Three of the six chose to order a spare BMU, each of whom has the > financial means to buy it. I'll act as a pass-through, with no markup. > > I expected more response on this list, given all of the discussions > regarding LiFP suppliers and results with other brands. The dearth of > discussion suggests to me that there have been very few issues with the > products and with the support while BPE was still in operation. > > The only contact I have at what's left of BPE is my former Regional Sales > Manager, Lori Ann Saunders, lori at blueplanetenergy.com. > Allan > > On 12/20/2025 8:01 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > To all the blue planet installers and to the wrenches too, > Blue planet is not the first nor will it be the last to terminate a > product line. > I personally have been installing blue planet from befor the 16 was > released. I have only one issue with a system we had 6 16 k and one had a > battery issue, quickly resolved and back up, no BMU issues so far ever so > its a difficult call to drop the cash to sit on your shelf or not. It may > be very valuable to have one down the road, look at Apple, Microsoft or > maybe a Saab or Desoto. To invest or not to and that's the bottom line. For > me as much as would like to have a spare l don't think l can right now. > Fun times > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2025, 12:22 AM Mark Downing via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> All detailed in here >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> *Sent:* Monday, December 8, 2025 10:33 AM >> >> Good Morning, Allan, >> I'll share my limited insight in hopes it proves valuable to you. >> >> Have you had any Blue Ion battery or BMU failures? If so, how many >> systems have you installed, and how many failures have you had? What >> failed, and what did you do to resolve the issue? If you replaced a BMU, >> was the process straightforward, and were you given a complete set of >> documentation with the unit? Was the factory warranty process honored? >> >> We have nine sites with Blue Ion installed. These range in size from a >> single battery module up to 48 modules. They are mated to a range of >> chargers and inverters from Outback, Magnum, Midnite, Schneider, and >> Sol-Ark. We have only experienced an issue at a single site and that was a >> battery module. Blue Ion was extremely attentive from a customer service >> perspective. They mailed problem-specific testing equipment along with >> the RMA'ed parts, provided live customer-support during the testing, and >> provided return shipping. All was covered by warranty (I do not know if >> there was a labor reimbursement). >> >> On a related track, how have you responded to Blue Planet's offer? Does >> it come across as a valid solution? Have you bought one or more spare BMUs? >> How are you supporting your Blue Ion customers going forward? Have you >> received support of any kind from Blue Planet? >> >> Our company took the same approach you did, sending an email to our >> customer base informing them to consider purchasing a back up BMU. To the >> best of my knowledge only one of our customers has opted to purchase a >> back-up and they are an energy utility with two large, high-consequence >> systems that easily warrants the ROI. We as a company are leaning toward >> not purchasing one to "have in stock". >> Sincerely, >> Sam >> >> [image: OnSite Energy] >> >> Sam Haraldson >> Operations Specialist >> (406) 551-6135 >> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >> >> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >> [image: B Corporation] >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> Ceck out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Dec 20 20:40:46 2025 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2025 17:40:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial optimum site In-Reply-To: References: <84428439-1ab0-449d-ab1e-397193a27656@sindelarsolar.com> <6a2eecca-9228-4041-b2e0-f99a72ac2468@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <1a4d445e-8e52-4c62-a4f7-5cc064fd1122@psln.com> Hey Folks,             I have an 18 ft X 36 ft"carport" type rack that currently has regular PVs installed, close to due south, tilt at 20 degrees.  The lower south edge of the array is 18 ft off the ground as the upper edge of the array abuts the upper of the roof of the 3-car roll-up door garage that its stands in front of.             Bi-facials were not so much in our quiver back when the original PVs were installed.  Now though I'm wondering if there's any experience (or warnings) out there for swapping out the single surface PVs with bi-facials.  If we did so we're thinking that spreading 3/4" white crushed rock or white tinted concrete (or something else?)in an apron of sorts under and 10-20 feet in front would make for a significant boost in back-side PV power production. Single side power production rating would also go up by ~ 28%.  Is it overly optimistic to expect an additional average 15% with this scenario?             Granted there would be some blockage from the back-side racking but its diffuse light. Normally you wouldn't expect much reflection from the south side of an array to the back side of the PVs but with 20 feet off the ground on the south side and a shallow tilt......             Any experience with this "remodel" idea appreciated. Pic attached Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FRS_working_logo, 50%.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 8424 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Boathouse, Phase 2 (5).JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 2973843 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sun Dec 21 13:10:53 2025 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2025 18:10:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial optimum site In-Reply-To: <1a4d445e-8e52-4c62-a4f7-5cc064fd1122@psln.com> References: <84428439-1ab0-449d-ab1e-397193a27656@sindelarsolar.com> <6a2eecca-9228-4041-b2e0-f99a72ac2468@sindelarsolar.com> <1a4d445e-8e52-4c62-a4f7-5cc064fd1122@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill , The last look I took at Bifacial suggested that the optimal material was/is the "California" white I think EDPM type material pardon my memory on the material name. Smooth, cleanable, long lasting, expanded & contracted well, easy to waterproof around contact points, pretty bomber material. No Idea on cost this was 12+ or more years ago, look for the old Solyndra PV advertisements they discussed this material as the optimal roof surface. I have considered bifacial for pole/ground mounts here ID. Has anyone tested or have Beta for improved winter performance? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial optimum site Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2025 01:40:46 +0000 Size: 4047064 URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun Dec 21 13:47:36 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2025 13:47:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial optimum site In-Reply-To: References: <84428439-1ab0-449d-ab1e-397193a27656@sindelarsolar.com> <6a2eecca-9228-4041-b2e0-f99a72ac2468@sindelarsolar.com> <1a4d445e-8e52-4c62-a4f7-5cc064fd1122@psln.com> Message-ID: I can't recall the specific study, but bifacials were noted to have an easier time self-clearing of snow due to the heat generated from backside production. I think the study was from upstate NY. I find this to be generally true. But the actual benefit can vary widely. No amount of albedo will remove ice. On Sun, Dec 21, 2025 at 1:17 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Bill , > > > > The last look I took at Bifacial suggested that the optimal material > was/is the “California” white I think EDPM type material pardon my memory > on the material name. > > Smooth, cleanable, long lasting, expanded & contracted well, easy to > waterproof around contact points, pretty bomber material. No Idea on cost > this was 12+ or more years ago, look for the old Solyndra PV advertisements > they discussed this material as the optimal roof surface. > > > > I have considered bifacial for pole/ground mounts here ID. Has anyone > tested or have Beta for improved winter performance? > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Sun Dec 21 15:49:34 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2025 12:49:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial optimum site Message-ID: We've been using bifacial modules for ground mounts in Colorado this last year and they seem to be doing very well. No hard data with a side by side comparison with a regular module, but it seems that they generate better. We use snow as our reflection surface. I've also heard anecdotally that they are good in cloudy conditions in the pacific northwest where you aren't collecting much direct beam radiation, but again, I don't curently have side by side monitoring data. PVwatts claims a 5 to 10% increase in most climates, and less sensitivity to exact orientation, which could also help with off grid sites. It also seems like the dark backside heats up a little faster on grounmounts and melts snow and ice off just a little faster than regular modules. As far as backside shading goes. The back side behaves just like the front side from small hard shadows (like from racking). A significant drop in production. But diffuse light, which is almost always what the back side is receiving, should be less affected by racking shading -- but I still think it would make sense to try to reduce racking shading of the back side. The biggest thing that concerns me about bifacial modules is that most of them are not tempered glass. Two 2mm layers of heat strengthened glass is supposed to be stiffer than one layer of 3.2mm tempered glass, but still less impact resistance if you are in any potential hail area in the 1" to 2" range (higher than 2" is liable to break even the tempered glass modules anyway). Other than that, I don't see any downsides, as they are usually cheaper per watt than regular modules too. A lot of people were using them on flush roof mounts because of the cheaper price, though you get zero benefit from the bifacial aspect there. Z -- Zeke Yewdall PV Engineer NABCEP #031508-89 zeke at darkforestsolar.com 303-523-3592 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun Dec 21 16:29:37 2025 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2025 16:29:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial optimum site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I do have a 50kw ground-mount of mono-facials alongside 300kw of bifacials (both @ similar azimuth and tilt).. After calculating both arrays to watts/sq. ft, the bi's outproduce the monos by 30% in midwinter with snow ground cover and both arrays 100% clear. I spec only bifacials for ground mounts as a result. On Sun, Dec 21, 2025 at 3:53 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We've been using bifacial modules for ground mounts in Colorado this last > year and they seem to be doing very well. No hard data with a side by side > comparison with a regular module, but it seems that they generate better. > We use snow as our reflection surface. I've also heard anecdotally that > they are good in cloudy conditions in the pacific northwest where you > aren't collecting much direct beam radiation, but again, I don't curently > have side by side monitoring data. PVwatts claims a 5 to 10% increase in > most climates, and less sensitivity to exact orientation, which could also > help with off grid sites. It also seems like the dark backside heats up a > little faster on grounmounts and melts snow and ice off just a little > faster than regular modules. > > As far as backside shading goes. The back side behaves just like the front > side from small hard shadows (like from racking). A significant drop in > production. But diffuse light, which is almost always what the back side > is receiving, should be less affected by racking shading -- but I still > think it would make sense to try to reduce racking shading of the back side. > > The biggest thing that concerns me about bifacial modules is that most of > them are not tempered glass. Two 2mm layers of heat strengthened glass is > supposed to be stiffer than one layer of 3.2mm tempered glass, but still > less impact resistance if you are in any potential hail area in the 1" to > 2" range (higher than 2" is liable to break even the tempered glass modules > anyway). Other than that, I don't see any downsides, as they are usually > cheaper per watt than regular modules too. A lot of people were using them > on flush roof mounts because of the cheaper price, though you get zero > benefit from the bifacial aspect there. > > Z > > -- > Zeke Yewdall > PV Engineer > NABCEP #031508-89 > zeke at darkforestsolar.com > 303-523-3592 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Dec 22 15:24:08 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 12:24:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s swap Message-ID: Friends: I need to swap a Mate3s. This requires help from Outback. They are not answering texts, emails or phone calls. Is there any way one can make this swap without Outback? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Mon Dec 22 15:32:19 2025 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 12:32:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ~5,000 amps @ 48 volts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The service is 240v single phase. The customer does prefer to interconnect to utility, but Load-history is very low to justify this amount of solar. As electricians, We know that we can take two hot legs of 480v 3φ and transform it down to 240v split. It’ll still be 60Hz. But getting PGE to agree to interconnect that architecture.. seems like such a long shot that they would agree, I don’t even want to try. That’s one reason I’m leaning toward SolArk 18K as the inverter choice. Another facet of the same issue - let’s say I magically did get the green light from all entities to interconnect a higher voltage 3φ inverter into standard residential single phase. That would mean that Phases A and B would essentially always be carrying significant load, and C phase would only see action during Emergency outages. That degree of phase imbalance could set us up for a “no warranty” argument from manufacturers. Another detail: if we’re interconnected, part of the goal is to offset real-time load of 5 disparate utility meters. When I anticipate receiving input from 5 sets CT’s (over significant distance), feeding it into an MDI, correcting for voltage, verifying L1 versus L2 five times, etc etc. it’ll be hard enough to do it with 240 split phase native gear. I think it will be a nightmare getting all that to grok correctly with a 480/240 transformer in the mix while saying yes to a permanent phase imbalance. The customer wants a generator. So then that generator would have to push 480v onto ‘critical loads.’ It’s also really weird to see 480 in a residential setting, and could be dangerous for any other electrician besides me and my foreman. Especially, say 5, 10+ years from now if I’m not available. Avoiding all that ,, these are the reasons I think it makes most sense to keep everything the same phase and voltage. On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 8:26 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Interesting exercise here, > 5000 amps at 48 vdc, this would be 20+ Fortress evault max 48 vdc cabinets > and l dont think you can put that many on the BMS. > What service does he have, a 3 phase 120/208, 277/480, a 120 208 3 phase > it would be around 600 + meter main, single phase close to a 1000, amps. > You may want to consider a commercial solark inverter as l recall they are > high voltage DC, It would be more efficient, smaller and less copper wire > even with a transformer to step it down. Get more info on this existing > service, voltage, phases, gets us all out of our boxes and thinking. > Fun times > > > On Fri, Dec 19, 2025, 2:49 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I do think the Electrician tried to balance the loads in the three 240 V >> panels, but how close he really came especially with add-ons down the road >> I don’t know. It does work fine, and the system is 5+ years old now without >> any issues. >> >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 5:46 PM david quattro >> wrote: >> >>> Kirk, it sounds like phase imbalance is not a problem >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 2:42 PM Kirk Herander >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> I’ve done one large off grid system with 480 -3 - phase inverters and 1 >>>> mwh, 850 vdc LFP storage. >>>> >>>> We created 240vac by stepping each 480v L-L phase down to 240 through >>>> its own transformer of proper size. >>>> So we have three 240/120 VAC panels for typical household loads. >>>> >>>> >>>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>>> >>>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>>> >>>> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >>>> >>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>>> >>>> 802.559.1225 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 5:25 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I’ve thought about HV and 60K model, but my loads are 240 Single >>>>> phase, across 5 separate contiguous parcels. all these homes already have >>>>> their own utility meters. There is one owner. The plan is to have an ATS >>>>> at each meter. >>>>> Regarding 3 phase offgrid, I’ve been concerned about phase >>>>> imbalance. Maybe I don’t need to worry about that. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:51 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> A couple or three Discover HVs and Sol-Ark 60ks. Done quickly >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:00 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Why 48v, why not commercial DC, like 850? What are you looking at >>>>>>> for kwh storage? A1000vdc buss, homemade or otherwise, would drop the buss >>>>>>> rating down to about 300 A. Commercial grade inverters, such as 3-phase >>>>>>> Delta PCS inverters are spec'ed for these situations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2025 at 1:13 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>>> I am still helping an uber wealthy owner determine if he really >>>>>>>> wants this much power. If he does, do any of you have experience sourcing a >>>>>>>> 48v battery-combiner on the order of 4500 to 5000 amps? >>>>>>>> I also want to get clear on how to best wire from batteries to >>>>>>>> combiner, and from combiner to inverters. I read here on the Wrenches list >>>>>>>> about some electricians who strategically sized conductor AWG so that >>>>>>>> resistance matches, which seems straightforward once we get our components >>>>>>>> mounted and accurate distances can be determined. Can anyone on list >>>>>>>> provide feedback about that, I really appreciate it! >>>>>>>> Thank you >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Celebrating our 34st Anniversary 1991-2025!!* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 802.559.1225 >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael Morningstar >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Morningstar Electric Inc >>>>>> >>>>>> PO Box 1494 >>>>>> >>>>>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >>>>>> >>>>>> 530-921-0560 >>>>>> >>>>>> CSLB 1116835 >>>>>> >>>>>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Chris at OasisMontana.com Mon Dec 22 15:32:54 2025 From: Chris at OasisMontana.com (Chris Daum) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 13:32:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Absurd battery question Message-ID: <011b01dc7382$28f91ef0$7aeb5cd0$@OasisMontana.com> RE: Closed loop communications. I have a customer who needs to replace his old AGMs; he's looking at getting something like 2500ah @ 24V and wants LFPs. This is a battery based, grid tie system. His equipment is a pair of XW4024s (Schneider - and he has NO interest in replacing his inverters) and three Classic (Midnite) charge controllers. I'm concerned with integrating the LFPs with his old inverter, but his Classics, I believe, can be reprogrammed to accommodate the LFPs. This system was installed around 2015 so the equipment is not new - but it's basically been humming along until a couple of weeks ago, when there was a week of 60 to 90 MPH winds that killed the power for a while. This is near Boulder, CO (at 9000 ft elevation). His system worked fine til his old AGMs gave out. Their power was out for ~3 days, then came on for 2 days, then went out again for a couple of days. So he realized how undersized and old his batteries were. If he gets some new LFPs, do you think they'll work with this vintage equipment? Any of your wonderful advice to pass along!? I'm thinking the Classics can dial in the settings he needs. Thanks, y'all! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Dec 22 16:08:46 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 13:08:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Absurd battery question In-Reply-To: <011b01dc7382$28f91ef0$7aeb5cd0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <011b01dc7382$28f91ef0$7aeb5cd0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: It’ll work fine no problems. Open loop of course. Jay > On Dec 22, 2025, at 12:50 PM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > RE: Closed loop communications… I have a customer who needs to replace his old AGMs; he’s looking at getting something like 2500ah @ 24V and wants LFPs. This is a battery based, grid tie system. His equipment is a pair of XW4024s (Schneider – and he has NO interest in replacing his inverters) and three Classic (Midnite) charge controllers. I’m concerned with integrating the LFPs with his old inverter, but his Classics, I believe, can be reprogrammed to accommodate the LFPs. This system was installed around 2015 so the equipment is not new – but it’s basically been humming along until a couple of weeks ago, when there was a week of 60 to 90 MPH winds that killed the power for a while. This is near Boulder, CO (at 9000 ft elevation). His system worked fine til his old AGMs gave out. Their power was out for ~3 days, then came on for 2 days, then went out again for a couple of days. So he realized how undersized and old his batteries were. > > If he gets some new LFPs, do you think they’ll work with this vintage equipment? Any of your wonderful advice to pass along!? I’m thinking the Classics can dial in the settings he needs. > > Thanks, y’all! > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Mon Dec 22 16:28:45 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 13:28:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Absurd battery question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it's perfectly possible to do an open loop (no comms) system with 24 volt LFP's and the XW inverters, especially with the midnite classic charge controllers. They are more adjustable in my experience than some of the other charge controllers. The only somewhat reputable 24 volt LFP's I know of would be the EG4 rack mount LL series though. Much harder to find than 48 volt options. The LVD on the inverters will be too high, which means you always have the chance of the battery BMS shutting down before the inverter does. And XW's will not dark start a shut off lithium battery from any source. I actually don't think the classic's will either. I've had to add separate small lithium battery chargers to a few systems that the customers keep running the batteries all the way down in to BMS shutdown. I have another customer, also near Boulder, who I upgraded to LFP batteries on his XW4548 inverter, similar vintage to your situation most likely. And by the time we were all done, I wished I'd just replaced the entire thing with an AIO. His batteries (discover) are quite picky with the XW inverter -- works fine with the victron charge controllers and will sell to the grid and all, but half the time they trip off line when charging from the inverter for some reason we've not yet identified. And, doing TOU billing (since Xcel is charging around 3x as much from 5 to 9pm either already or coming soon for most customers) with the XW is a much more clunky process than with the AIO. With the amount of money spent on labor and futzing with the system over the past year and trying to get monitoring working and all, we could have put it into the hardware of a new inverter with closed loop comms with new LFP batteries.... Zeke > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 13:32:54 -0700 > From: Chris Daum > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Absurd battery question > Message-ID: <011b01dc7382$28f91ef0$7aeb5cd0$@OasisMontana.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > RE: Closed loop communications. I have a customer who needs to replace > his > old AGMs; he's looking at getting something like 2500ah @ 24V and wants > LFPs. This is a battery based, grid tie system. His equipment is a pair > of > XW4024s (Schneider - and he has NO interest in replacing his inverters) and > three Classic (Midnite) charge controllers. I'm concerned with integrating > the LFPs with his old inverter, but his Classics, I believe, can be > reprogrammed to accommodate the LFPs. This system was installed around > 2015 > so the equipment is not new - but it's basically been humming along until a > couple of weeks ago, when there was a week of 60 to 90 MPH winds that > killed > the power for a while. This is near Boulder, CO (at 9000 ft elevation). > His system worked fine til his old AGMs gave out. Their power was out for > ~3 days, then came on for 2 days, then went out again for a couple of days. > So he realized how undersized and old his batteries were. > > > > If he gets some new LFPs, do you think they'll work with this vintage > equipment? Any of your wonderful advice to pass along!? I'm thinking the > Classics can dial in the settings he needs. > > > > Thanks, y'all! > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zeke at darkforestsolar.com Mon Dec 22 16:32:12 2025 From: zeke at darkforestsolar.com (Zeke Yewdall) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 13:32:12 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s swap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've done a lot of Mate3s swaps over the years, as they are not the most reliable piece of equipment, and I never involved outback in it. If I recall, you just link the new mates mac ID to the plant in opticsRE, and delete the old one. Whether you lose all of the old data when doing that I can't remember -- probably so. Perhaps just name the old one old data, and keep it on the portal rather than deleting it, and use the new one going forwards. Zeke Subject: [RE-wrenches] Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Friends: I need to swap a Mate3s. This requires help from Outback. They are not answering texts, emails or phone calls. Is there any way one can make this swap without Outback? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Dec 22 16:42:29 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (Todd Cory) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 21:42:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Absurd battery question In-Reply-To: <011b01dc7382$28f91ef0$7aeb5cd0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <011b01dc7382$28f91ef0$7aeb5cd0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <19b48038588.284a.4317fda5bda71af373de9c45c94f08a7@finestplanet.com> Why not use flooded lead calcium batteries. They last 30 years and have basically no maintenance needs... And the equipment is designed for this type of battery architecture. On December 22, 2025 20:50:22 Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > RE: Closed loop communications… I have a customer who needs to replace > his old AGMs; he’s looking at getting something like 2500ah @ 24V and wants > LFPs. This is a battery based, grid tie system. His equipment is a pair > of XW4024s (Schneider – and he has NO interest in replacing his inverters) > and three Classic (Midnite) charge controllers. I’m concerned with > integrating the LFPs with his old inverter, but his Classics, I believe, > can be reprogrammed to accommodate the LFPs. This system was installed > around 2015 so the equipment is not new – but it’s basically been humming > along until a couple of weeks ago, when there was a week of 60 to 90 MPH > winds that killed the power for a while. This is near Boulder, CO (at 9000 > ft elevation). His system worked fine til his old AGMs gave out. Their > power was out for ~3 days, then came on for 2 days, then went out again for > a couple of days. So he realized how undersized and old his batteries were. > > If he gets some new LFPs, do you think they’ll work with this vintage > equipment? Any of your wonderful advice to pass along!? I’m thinking the > Classics can dial in the settings he needs. > > Thanks, y’all! > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent with Aqua Mail for Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Mon Dec 22 16:42:42 2025 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 13:42:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Absurd battery question In-Reply-To: <011b01dc7382$28f91ef0$7aeb5cd0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <011b01dc7382$28f91ef0$7aeb5cd0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Hey Chris, You can do 'Open Loop' comms with many of those legacy inverters... The only real issue with the Open Loop comms is that he'll need to pay more attention to them than you would in a closed-loop system. Every so often, depending on how hard he works them, he may need to separate the parallel strings and balance them (Charge to complete 100%) every 6-12 months. The only real issue that I've found is the SOC%, which means those Context inverters will never be accurate, so there is a learning curve on that. Don't want to be a sales guy here, but we do offer some 24V LFPs that would work for this: https://rollsbattery.com/battery/s24-150lfp/ You can run up to 6 in parallel. We do offer 12V models that can be set up in 2S4P. Using the S12-300LFP, you can use four parallel strings. They should be wired with bus bars and breakers to make balancing easier. Here is an idea of how they would be wired... [image: image.png] Feel free to let me know if you have any questions... Happy Holidays! *Steve Higgins* *⋅* *Technical Services Manager* *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Mon, Dec 22, 2025 at 12:50 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > RE: Closed loop communications… I have a customer who needs to replace > his old AGMs; he’s looking at getting something like 2500ah @ 24V and wants > LFPs. This is a battery based, grid tie system. His equipment is a pair > of XW4024s (Schneider – and he has NO interest in replacing his inverters) > and three Classic (Midnite) charge controllers. I’m concerned with > integrating the LFPs with his old inverter, but his Classics, I believe, > can be reprogrammed to accommodate the LFPs. This system was installed > around 2015 so the equipment is not new – but it’s basically been humming > along until a couple of weeks ago, when there was a week of 60 to 90 MPH > winds that killed the power for a while. This is near Boulder, CO (at 9000 > ft elevation). His system worked fine til his old AGMs gave out. Their > power was out for ~3 days, then came on for 2 days, then went out again for > a couple of days. So he realized how undersized and old his batteries were. > > > > If he gets some new LFPs, do you think they’ll work with this vintage > equipment? Any of your wonderful advice to pass along!? I’m thinking the > Classics can dial in the settings he needs. > > > > Thanks, y’all! > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 31196 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Dec 22 16:58:47 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 13:58:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s swap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02E12476-0D68-4147-9D4E-C17241B3E840@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Dec 22 17:00:24 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 15:00:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Absurd battery question In-Reply-To: <011b01dc7382$28f91ef0$7aeb5cd0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <011b01dc7382$28f91ef0$7aeb5cd0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <496c56d0-acfd-4f9d-b58b-5ef19f7c750a@solarray.com> I think once you compare the cost of 24v battery options ( Rubix, Simpliphi) to the 48v (Midnite) it will be worth replacing the inverters.  2500 Ah @ 24 vdc is 60 kwh; that's a good sized battery bank even for full time off grid, I think over kill for a backup system.  Just pencil it both ways, my last 24 v system I noticed that LFP was almost double $$/ kwh compared to 48v. Also, I Will reiterate that many on the list, including me, have had XWs throw the programming and start charging at maximum DC voltage (32vdc!)  Many a battery bank has been cooked with fire danger a real possibility.   Just another reason to consider going 48v.  I just did a 24 v LFP upgrade for a client with an Outback 24v inverter.  We too decided to keep the inverter, but many lessons learned during install, would change that choice next time: 1) Inverter age (10 to 15 years is getting long in the tooth, even if its worked perfectly) 2) Battery cost/ kwh  (48v much cheaper) 3) Battery options  (more options) 4) Half amperage on battery cables 5) Inverter can accept full 240 vac charge amps from generator (using a newer 120/240 inverter) 6) Charge controllers can operate at double their 24 v capacity 7) More Charge Controller choices, (such as the Midnite Hawke's Bay, which very unfortunately do not operate at 24 v) 8) Less parallel batteries for larger banks 9) Everything is wired to your spec, and you're not taking on somebody else's workmanship. I too saw a working system that I didn't want to redo, but I kept uncovering crappy wiring that eliminated any cost savings from not replacing the inverter..... You need to look at the full project economics, long term reliability, and future expandability. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/22/2025 1:32 PM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > > RE:  Closed loop communications…  I have a customer who needs to > replace his old AGMs; he’s looking at getting something like 2500ah @ > 24V and wants LFPs.  This is a battery based, grid tie system.  His > equipment is a pair of XW4024s (Schneider – and he has NO interest in > replacing his inverters) and three Classic (Midnite) charge > controllers. I’m concerned with integrating the LFPs with his old > inverter, but his Classics, I believe, can be reprogrammed to > accommodate the LFPs.  This system was installed around 2015 so the > equipment is not new – but it’s basically been humming along until a > couple of weeks ago, when there was a week of 60 to 90 MPH winds that > killed the power for a while.  This is near Boulder, CO (at 9000 ft > elevation).  His system worked fine til his old AGMs gave out.  Their > power was out for ~3 days, then came on for 2 days, then went out > again for a couple of days.  So he realized how undersized and old his > batteries were. > > If he gets some new LFPs, do you think they’ll work with this vintage > equipment?  Any of your wonderful advice to pass along!?   I’m > thinking the Classics can dial in the settings he needs. > > Thanks, y’all! > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Dec 22 17:03:48 2025 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 15:03:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s swap In-Reply-To: <02E12476-0D68-4147-9D4E-C17241B3E840@gmail.com> References: <02E12476-0D68-4147-9D4E-C17241B3E840@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7bfd239d-fac5-4d79-8686-6e4dab1ba0d2@solarray.com> Outback VFXs that I have worked on, had an LBCO that topped out at 48 v, definitely a problem.  Magnum inverters LBCO topped at 49 v, more usable, but still too low in my experience. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 12/22/2025 2:58 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > I don’t agree about either the trace/xantrex SW or the newer Schneider > SW or Outback fx not having a LBCO that will work with LFP. > > The SW has a LBCO of between 16-32v. > > Every LFP battery I’ve  used the LBCO of all of those inverters is > well within the parameters of LFP batteries. > > > I guess there are battereis im not familiar with that have a LBCO > outside of those parameters. > Jay > > > > > > > >> On Dec 22, 2025, at 1:32 PM, Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> I've done a lot of Mate3s swaps over the years, as they are not the >> most reliable piece of equipment, and I never involved outback in >> it.   If I recall, you just link the new mates mac ID to the plant in >> opticsRE, and delete the old one.  Whether you lose all of the old >> data when doing that I can't remember -- probably so.   Perhaps just >> name the old one old data, and keep it on the portal rather than >> deleting it, and use the new one going forwards. >> >> Zeke >> >> >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] >> >> >> Message-ID: >>         >> > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Friends: >> >> I need to swap a Mate3s. This requires help from Outback. They are not >> answering texts, emails or phone calls. >> >> Is there any way one can make this swap without Outback? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Dec 22 21:20:15 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 18:20:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s swap In-Reply-To: <7bfd239d-fac5-4d79-8686-6e4dab1ba0d2@solarray.com> References: <02E12476-0D68-4147-9D4E-C17241B3E840@gmail.com> <7bfd239d-fac5-4d79-8686-6e4dab1ba0d2@solarray.com> Message-ID: You all have mixed up your subject lines. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Mon, Dec 22, 2025 at 2:04 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Outback VFXs that I have worked on, had an LBCO that topped out at 48 v, > definitely a problem. Magnum inverters LBCO topped at 49 v, more usable, > but still too low in my experience. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 12/22/2025 2:58 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I don’t agree about either the trace/xantrex SW or the newer Schneider SW > or Outback fx not having a LBCO that will work with LFP. > > The SW has a LBCO of between 16-32v. > > Every LFP battery I’ve used the LBCO of all of those inverters is well > within the parameters of LFP batteries. > > > I guess there are battereis im not familiar with that have a LBCO outside > of those parameters. > Jay > > > > > > > > On Dec 22, 2025, at 1:32 PM, Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > >  > I've done a lot of Mate3s swaps over the years, as they are not the most > reliable piece of equipment, and I never involved outback in it. If I > recall, you just link the new mates mac ID to the plant in opticsRE, and > delete the old one. Whether you lose all of the old data when doing that I > can't remember -- probably so. Perhaps just name the old one old data, > and keep it on the portal rather than deleting it, and use the new one > going forwards. > > Zeke > > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] > > > Message-ID: > kE8-yyiW+_1oNaKcoBrg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Friends: > > I need to swap a Mate3s. This requires help from Outback. They are not > answering texts, emails or phone calls. > > Is there any way one can make this swap without Outback? > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Dec 22 21:33:18 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 18:33:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s swap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Zeke: I can see the MAC address of the Mate3 in Optics but I could never change it. Maybe you have privileges I don’t have. I have always had to contact Outback to change out a Mate3s. What is your secret? I tried to connect via chat several times without a reply. Today I finally selected option 2 on the voice line for sales and David answered. He agreed to ping tech support so they would respond to the chat request. It is so ludicrous to use chat for off-grid support. I am so frustrated I can hardly put it into words. On site I was experiencing inverter problems that kept cutting power. Every time power went out Internet went down and the chat got cut off. With the customer looking over my shoulder I reconnected time and again only to keep getting cut off. Outback has hit a new low with tech support forbidding voice calls. I spent a lot of time ramping into Outback as my primary manufacturer. I will never spec an Outback system ever again. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Mon, Dec 22, 2025 at 1:33 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I've done a lot of Mate3s swaps over the years, as they are not the most > reliable piece of equipment, and I never involved outback in it. If I > recall, you just link the new mates mac ID to the plant in opticsRE, and > delete the old one. Whether you lose all of the old data when doing that I > can't remember -- probably so. Perhaps just name the old one old data, > and keep it on the portal rather than deleting it, and use the new one > going forwards. > > Zeke > > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] > > > Message-ID: > kE8-yyiW+_1oNaKcoBrg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Friends: > > I need to swap a Mate3s. This requires help from Outback. They are not > answering texts, emails or phone calls. > > Is there any way one can make this swap without Outback? > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Dec 22 21:54:31 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 18:54:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Mate3s swap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Zeke: How do you add a new mate to an existing system? I have looked everywhere on Optics under the given site and I don't see how that is done. Or do you just create a new site with the new mate? If so, I can see how you lose all of the history. That would make future troubleshooting difficult indeed. William ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Zeke Yewdall Date: Mon, Dec 22, 2025 at 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s swap To: You can't change the mac address, but you can add another mate3 to the system. I have one system with too many things that has four mate3's on it. So you can just add a different mate3 and have it be what you click on to get into the system. As far as tech support.... I haven't tried talking to them since they got bought a year (or more now?) ago. I didn't think there was any tech support any more....sounds like there is almost none... On Mon, Dec 22, 2025 at 6:33 PM William Miller wrote: > Zeke: > > I can see the MAC address of the Mate3 in Optics but I could never change > it. Maybe you have privileges I don’t have. I have always had to contact > Outback to change out a Mate3s. What is your secret? > > I tried to connect via chat several times without a reply. Today I finally > selected option 2 on the voice line for sales and David answered. He agreed > to ping tech support so they would respond to the chat request. It is so > ludicrous to use chat for off-grid support. > > I am so frustrated I can hardly put it into words. On site I was > experiencing inverter problems that kept cutting power. Every time power > went out Internet went down and the chat got cut off. With the customer > looking over my shoulder I reconnected time and again only to keep getting > cut off. > > Outback has hit a new low with tech support forbidding voice calls. I > spent a lot of time ramping into Outback as my primary manufacturer. > I will never spec an Outback system ever again. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Mon, Dec 22, 2025 at 1:33 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I've done a lot of Mate3s swaps over the years, as they are not the most >> reliable piece of equipment, and I never involved outback in it. If I >> recall, you just link the new mates mac ID to the plant in opticsRE, and >> delete the old one. Whether you lose all of the old data when doing that I >> can't remember -- probably so. Perhaps just name the old one old data, >> and keep it on the portal rather than deleting it, and use the new one >> going forwards. >> >> Zeke >> >> >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] >> >> >> Message-ID: >> > kE8-yyiW+_1oNaKcoBrg at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Friends: >> >> I need to swap a Mate3s. This requires help from Outback. They are not >> answering texts, emails or phone calls. >> >> Is there any way one can make this swap without Outback? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- Zeke Yewdall PV Engineer NABCEP #031508-89 zeke at darkforestsolar.com 303-523-3592 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot 2025-12-22 at 6.35.52 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 76307 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Dec 22 21:57:09 2025 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 19:57:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s swap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, You will need to click "add a profile" to the Optics site with the MAC address of the new Mate3s (this is fixed and cannot be changed). Then you can nest the new Mate 3s under the site that you have already built (its a drop down menu with all of your sites) They don't have you merge the data under the same MAC address, but you can reference the old data by clicking between profiles. Eventually, you may want to delete the old profile. Hope this helps but let us know if you have questions. On Mon, Dec 22, 2025 at 7:35 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Zeke: > > I can see the MAC address of the Mate3 in Optics but I could never change > it. Maybe you have privileges I don’t have. I have always had to contact > Outback to change out a Mate3s. What is your secret? > > I tried to connect via chat several times without a reply. Today I finally > selected option 2 on the voice line for sales and David answered. He agreed > to ping tech support so they would respond to the chat request. It is so > ludicrous to use chat for off-grid support. > > I am so frustrated I can hardly put it into words. On site I was > experiencing inverter problems that kept cutting power. Every time power > went out Internet went down and the chat got cut off. With the customer > looking over my shoulder I reconnected time and again only to keep getting > cut off. > > Outback has hit a new low with tech support forbidding voice calls. I > spent a lot of time ramping into Outback as my primary manufacturer. > I will never spec an Outback system ever again. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Mon, Dec 22, 2025 at 1:33 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I've done a lot of Mate3s swaps over the years, as they are not the most >> reliable piece of equipment, and I never involved outback in it. If I >> recall, you just link the new mates mac ID to the plant in opticsRE, and >> delete the old one. Whether you lose all of the old data when doing that I >> can't remember -- probably so. Perhaps just name the old one old data, >> and keep it on the portal rather than deleting it, and use the new one >> going forwards. >> >> Zeke >> >> >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] >> >> >> Message-ID: >> > kE8-yyiW+_1oNaKcoBrg at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Friends: >> >> I need to swap a Mate3s. This requires help from Outback. They are not >> answering texts, emails or phone calls. >> >> Is there any way one can make this swap without Outback? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Dec 22 22:21:27 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 19:21:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s swap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac: Thanks. This seems sub-optimal but it may be our only option as Outback withers into nothingness. William On Mon, Dec 22, 2025 at 6:57 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi William, > > You will need to click "add a profile" to the Optics site with the MAC > address of the new Mate3s (this is fixed and cannot be changed). Then you > can nest the new Mate 3s under the site that you have already built (its a > drop down menu with all of your sites) They don't have you merge the data > under the same MAC address, but you can reference the old data by clicking > between profiles. Eventually, you may want to delete the old profile. > > Hope this helps but let us know if you have questions. > > On Mon, Dec 22, 2025 at 7:35 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Zeke: >> >> I can see the MAC address of the Mate3 in Optics but I could never change >> it. Maybe you have privileges I don’t have. I have always had to contact >> Outback to change out a Mate3s. What is your secret? >> >> I tried to connect via chat several times without a reply. Today I >> finally selected option 2 on the voice line for sales and David answered. >> He agreed to ping tech support so they would respond to the chat request. >> It is so ludicrous to use chat for off-grid support. >> >> I am so frustrated I can hardly put it into words. On site I was >> experiencing inverter problems that kept cutting power. Every time power >> went out Internet went down and the chat got cut off. With the customer >> looking over my shoulder I reconnected time and again only to keep getting >> cut off. >> >> Outback has hit a new low with tech support forbidding voice calls. I >> spent a lot of time ramping into Outback as my primary manufacturer. >> I will never spec an Outback system ever again. >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 22, 2025 at 1:33 PM Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I've done a lot of Mate3s swaps over the years, as they are not the most >>> reliable piece of equipment, and I never involved outback in it. If I >>> recall, you just link the new mates mac ID to the plant in opticsRE, and >>> delete the old one. Whether you lose all of the old data when doing that I >>> can't remember -- probably so. Perhaps just name the old one old data, >>> and keep it on the portal rather than deleting it, and use the new one >>> going forwards. >>> >>> Zeke >>> >>> >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] >>> >>> >>> Message-ID: >>> >> kE8-yyiW+_1oNaKcoBrg at mail.gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> I need to swap a Mate3s. This requires help from Outback. They are not >>> answering texts, emails or phone calls. >>> >>> Is there any way one can make this swap without Outback? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Dec 22 23:39:20 2025 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2025 20:39:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial optimum site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87ce9ab2-f1f4-434e-99b0-fe74ea17e36d@psln.com> I hadn't considered the snow melt advantage, which would definitely help at this location, 4600' in the Sierra. And yes, the reflection off of snow has always been a good boost in output in this area, with the lower edge of the array ~18 feet off the ground and a lower sun angle reflecting off snow in the winter I'm assuming this is close to ideal for bi-facial. We'll have to check to see if bi-facial is as strong for snow load.  It's the backside gain in the summer that's stumping us. (white) concrete is too energy intensive, whatever is out in front of the array will get driven on occasionally (it's more for storage than daily driving), its red 3/4" crushed gravel now. Appreciate the feedback, Gotta love a challenge. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 12/21/2025 12:49 PM, Zeke Yewdall via RE-wrenches wrote: > We've been using bifacial modules for ground mounts in Colorado this > last year and they seem to be doing very well. No hard data with a > side by side comparison with a regular module, but it seems that they > generate better.  We use snow as our reflection surface.  I've also > heard anecdotally that they are good in cloudy conditions in the > pacific northwest where you aren't collecting much direct beam > radiation, but again, I don't curently have side by side monitoring > data. PVwatts claims a 5 to 10% increase in most climates, and less > sensitivity to exact orientation, which could also help with off grid > sites.  It also seems like the dark backside heats up a little faster > on grounmounts and melts snow and ice off just a little faster than > regular modules. > > As far as backside shading goes. The back side behaves just like the > front side from small hard shadows (like from racking).  A significant > drop in production.  But diffuse light, which is almost always what > the back side is receiving, should be less affected by racking shading > -- but I still think it would make sense to try to reduce racking > shading of the back side. > > The biggest thing that concerns me about bifacial modules is that most > of them are not tempered glass.  Two 2mm layers of heat strengthened > glass is supposed to be stiffer than one layer of 3.2mm tempered > glass, but still less impact resistance if you are in any potential > hail area in the 1" to 2" range (higher than 2" is liable to break > even the tempered glass modules anyway).  Other than that, I don't see > any downsides, as they are usually cheaper per watt than regular > modules too.  A lot of people were using them on flush roof mounts > because of the cheaper price, though you get zero benefit from the > bifacial aspect there. > > Z > > -- > Zeke Yewdall > PV Engineer > NABCEP #031508-89 > zeke at darkforestsolar.com > 303-523-3592 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Dec 23 08:25:23 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2025 08:25:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disable refloat In-Reply-To: <5D6C9550-3A32-4EA5-8E5C-AB4848C03295@starlightsolar.com> References: <8FF0C88A-E28F-453E-B32E-4C01816BE839@gmail.com> <69CFCA3A-DD23-48CB-98E0-CE5015FA7CD7@starlightsolar.com> <5D6C9550-3A32-4EA5-8E5C-AB4848C03295@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <329141b84d0f934333b45578cd023e37@redwoodalliance.org> The problem I am running into is that REFLOAT keeps initiating and the system never gets triggered to go back into the bulk / absorb cycle. Can I avoid this by turning the float time to zero? Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-12-12 11:24, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > Have you set up "Rebulk Voltage" in the advanced menu? > > On Dec 12, 2025, at 9:10 AM, Starlight via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hello Drake, > Absorption is the phase where voltage remains constant. Until the > Absorb voltage value is achieved, you will be bulk charging. You can > only force Float or Bulk. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Power Systems > > On Dec 12, 2025, at 8:58 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > The system feeds the grid through an SMA H-FUS inverter. The Outbacks > are off grid inverters, but are AC coupled to the batteries to provide > power when the grid is down. > > The inverters monitor the batteries and go into REFLOAT when the > batteries hit 25 volts. I would like the inverters to go strait into > the ABSORB cycle instead of going to REFLOAT. > > The grid tie came after the the Outbacks were already in as a backup > system. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2025-12-11 10:54, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi drake. > > You're talking about the inverters charging the battereis, meaning > this is a grid connected system? > > Do you have a mate3/s or 1? > > Jay > > On Dec 11, 2025, at 7:39 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > We have a rental property with two, stacked VFX 3524 inverters. In the > winter the batteries don't get an adequate solar charge. I would like > to have the batteries get a bulk charge when the voltage drops to 24 > volts, but it keeps hitting refloat. > > How do I disable refloat? Can I just set the refloat time to zero? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://re-wrenches.org/ [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Dec 23 09:29:37 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2025 09:29:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disable refloat In-Reply-To: <329141b84d0f934333b45578cd023e37@redwoodalliance.org> References: <8FF0C88A-E28F-453E-B32E-4C01816BE839@gmail.com> <69CFCA3A-DD23-48CB-98E0-CE5015FA7CD7@starlightsolar.com> <5D6C9550-3A32-4EA5-8E5C-AB4848C03295@starlightsolar.com> <329141b84d0f934333b45578cd023e37@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Or can I set the Rebulk voltage for the pair of Outback VFX3524 inverters on the Mate to lower than the Refloat? Will it let me do that? I have very limited access to the equipment to experiment. Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-12-23 08:25, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > The problem I am running into is that REFLOAT keeps initiating and the > system never gets triggered to go back into the bulk / absorb cycle. > > Can I avoid this by turning the float time to zero? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2025-12-12 11:24, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > Have you set up "Rebulk Voltage" in the advanced menu? > > On Dec 12, 2025, at 9:10 AM, Starlight via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hello Drake, > Absorption is the phase where voltage remains constant. Until the > Absorb voltage value is achieved, you will be bulk charging. You can > only force Float or Bulk. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Power Systems > > On Dec 12, 2025, at 8:58 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > The system feeds the grid through an SMA H-FUS inverter. The Outbacks > are off grid inverters, but are AC coupled to the batteries to provide > power when the grid is down. > > The inverters monitor the batteries and go into REFLOAT when the > batteries hit 25 volts. I would like the inverters to go strait into > the ABSORB cycle instead of going to REFLOAT. > > The grid tie came after the the Outbacks were already in as a backup > system. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2025-12-11 10:54, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi drake. > > You're talking about the inverters charging the battereis, meaning > this is a grid connected system? > > Do you have a mate3/s or 1? > > Jay > > On Dec 11, 2025, at 7:39 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > We have a rental property with two, stacked VFX 3524 inverters. In the > winter the batteries don't get an adequate solar charge. I would like > to have the batteries get a bulk charge when the voltage drops to 24 > volts, but it keeps hitting refloat. > > How do I disable refloat? Can I just set the refloat time to zero? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://re-wrenches.org/ [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Tue Dec 23 09:45:27 2025 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2025 06:45:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disable refloat In-Reply-To: References: <8FF0C88A-E28F-453E-B32E-4C01816BE839@gmail.com> <69CFCA3A-DD23-48CB-98E0-CE5015FA7CD7@starlightsolar.com> <5D6C9550-3A32-4EA5-8E5C-AB4848C03295@starlightsolar.com> <329141b84d0f934333b45578cd023e37@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <1766501127.172328362@webmail.finestplanet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img-0.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 57665 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Dec 23 10:55:26 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2025 07:55:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disable refloat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F6B28AA-73CD-4620-A682-BDD634F62F88@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Dec 23 14:53:46 2025 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2025 11:53:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFXR Slow charge Message-ID: Friends: I was pleasantly surprised to get a call-back from Outback with a familiar voice this morning. The inverter has been charging to only 52 VDC at no more than 700 watts since new. I had blamed the 3kW portable generator. We installed a new Kohler 12 kW Gen and the problem continued. I had tried all the suggestions to change re-bulk and re-float and even reset to factory defaults. Nothing helped. The OB tech suggested setting the Gen input to Backup and…. problem solved. I don’t know why but I won’t argue with success. Curiously I have another almost identical system that charges just fine on Generator setting. If anyone can explain this I’d really like to know. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Dec 23 17:39:31 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2025 14:39:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFXR Slow charge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A25CA82-47BD-4CAA-8235-E425FCC1075E@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Dec 24 12:03:44 2025 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2025 12:03:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFXR Slow charge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2c73f5b4fc18aa273c5081e484b97b15@redwoodalliance.org> I think the equipment is just quirky. Our Radian system at home was doing a similar thing for a while. For some reason, with no parameter changes, it started working right most of the time. _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2025-12-23 14:53, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > Friends: > > I was pleasantly surprised to get a call-back from Outback with a > familiar voice this morning. > > The inverter has been charging to only 52 VDC at no more than 700 watts > since new. I had blamed the 3kW portable generator. We installed a new > Kohler 12 kW Gen and the problem continued. > > I had tried all the suggestions to change re-bulk and re-float and even > reset to factory defaults. Nothing helped. > > The OB tech suggested setting the Gen input to Backup and.... problem > solved. > > I don't know why but I won't argue with success. > > Curiously I have another almost identical system that charges just fine > on Generator setting. > > If anyone can explain this I'd really like to know. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com [1] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Dec 26 11:50:26 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 11:50:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Random Unexplained Shutdowns Message-ID: Hi all, I have two new systems experiencing random shutdowns anywhere from 48 hours to 3 weeks apart. The inverters will simply shut off, going into standby with no power to the loads, and absolutely nothing in the fault logs. Turning them back on with the master inverter power switch or remotely with app restores normal operation for some random period of time before it happens again. Here are the similarities: -Parallel inverter systems (3 or 4 AIO) -Powerflo16 batteries, closed loop comms (80 kWh and 112 kWh) -Grid interactive systems with netmetering -Large PV systems with DC Coupled PV on each inverter -Shutdowns typically happen at night, early morning hours -Loads are low and nothing out of the ordinary on the load side happening at the time of shutdown -Confirmed no errant Neutral to Ground bonds that shouldn't be there -Proper installation of ferrite rings -AP Smart RSDs Differences: -Two different firmwares (but all firmware per site is the same per inverter). Updated at different times by Midnite tech support remotely Has anyone experienced anything like this, and if so, did you find a resolution? I have a call into Midnite and hope to make some progress on Monday. I'm seriously concerned, especially with one site that doesn't have a bypass (due to space constraints). I can't have these sites going down and cutting power to the homes! Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Dec 26 12:18:07 2025 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 11:18:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Random Unexplained Shutdowns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have the same issue, but a single inverter installation. It happened a few times at night. No log entry. Tech support suggested upgrading to version 7. I asked for release notes. I haven’t upgraded yet, I haven’t had time to go babysit it for the customer. I’ve been trying to train the customer to do it himself. (bypass mode, standby, etc. I did install a bypass switch and I also installed a bluetti battery on the router.) Release notes would be nice. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Dec 26, 2025, at 10:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hi all, > > I have two new systems experiencing random shutdowns anywhere from 48 hours to 3 weeks apart. The inverters will simply shut off, going into standby with no power to the loads, and absolutely nothing in the fault logs. Turning them back on with the master inverter power switch or remotely with app restores normal operation for some random period of time before it happens again. > > Here are the similarities: > > -Parallel inverter systems (3 or 4 AIO) > -Powerflo16 batteries, closed loop comms (80 kWh and 112 kWh) > -Grid interactive systems with netmetering > -Large PV systems with DC Coupled PV on each inverter > -Shutdowns typically happen at night, early morning hours > -Loads are low and nothing out of the ordinary on the load side happening at the time of shutdown > -Confirmed no errant Neutral to Ground bonds that shouldn't be there > -Proper installation of ferrite rings > -AP Smart RSDs > > Differences: > -Two different firmwares (but all firmware per site is the same per inverter). Updated at different times by Midnite tech support remotely > > > Has anyone experienced anything like this, and if so, did you find a resolution? > > I have a call into Midnite and hope to make some progress on Monday. I'm seriously concerned, especially with one site that doesn't have a bypass (due to space constraints). I can't have these sites going down and cutting power to the homes! > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Dec 26 13:17:01 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 10:17:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Random Unexplained Shutdowns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1844EFDE-83CF-4A2F-AE7D-2B42BA8BDCB4@gmail.com> So frustrating. A few questions. Does the inverter restart on its own? Has it done this since install? Or is any new loads? I have had a LUX power 12kw do something similar. I don’t know if it is connected to your issue. I finally tracked it down to a small 1/2 wave heater load in a bidet. As I learned more from some blogs and talking to people, the issue at least with the the lux is if the total AC loads are high enough all works fine. If the total loads are low enough, typically under 1kw, and the 1/2 wave is around 300 watts +/- it’s enough to shut the inverter off. It does auto start solar least that’s good. That system was web connected and eg4 couldn’t identify what the cause was from any of the online monitoring. They said check grounding and neutral bonds etc. obviously that wasn’t the issue. Good luck Jay > On Dec 26, 2025, at 9:23 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have the same issue, but a single inverter installation. It happened a few times at night. > > No log entry. > > Tech support suggested upgrading to version 7. I asked for release notes. I haven’t upgraded yet, I haven’t had time to go babysit it for the customer. I’ve been trying to train the customer to do it himself. (bypass mode, standby, etc. I did install a bypass switch and I also installed a bluetti battery on the router.) > > Release notes would be nice. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > >>> On Dec 26, 2025, at 10:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>  >> Hi all, >> >> I have two new systems experiencing random shutdowns anywhere from 48 hours to 3 weeks apart. The inverters will simply shut off, going into standby with no power to the loads, and absolutely nothing in the fault logs. Turning them back on with the master inverter power switch or remotely with app restores normal operation for some random period of time before it happens again. >> >> Here are the similarities: >> >> -Parallel inverter systems (3 or 4 AIO) >> -Powerflo16 batteries, closed loop comms (80 kWh and 112 kWh) >> -Grid interactive systems with netmetering >> -Large PV systems with DC Coupled PV on each inverter >> -Shutdowns typically happen at night, early morning hours >> -Loads are low and nothing out of the ordinary on the load side happening at the time of shutdown >> -Confirmed no errant Neutral to Ground bonds that shouldn't be there >> -Proper installation of ferrite rings >> -AP Smart RSDs >> >> Differences: >> -Two different firmwares (but all firmware per site is the same per inverter). Updated at different times by Midnite tech support remotely >> >> >> Has anyone experienced anything like this, and if so, did you find a resolution? >> >> I have a call into Midnite and hope to make some progress on Monday. I'm seriously concerned, especially with one site that doesn't have a bypass (due to space constraints). I can't have these sites going down and cutting power to the homes! >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Dec 26 13:39:33 2025 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 10:39:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Random Unexplained Shutdowns In-Reply-To: <1844EFDE-83CF-4A2F-AE7D-2B42BA8BDCB4@gmail.com> References: <1844EFDE-83CF-4A2F-AE7D-2B42BA8BDCB4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Same on two different systems. Newest firmware seems to have resolved things. On Fri, Dec 26, 2025 at 10:18 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > So frustrating. > > A few questions. > Does the inverter restart on its own? > Has it done this since install? > Or is any new loads? > > I have had a LUX power 12kw do something similar. I don’t know if it is > connected to your issue. > > I finally tracked it down to a small 1/2 wave heater load in a bidet. > > As I learned more from some blogs and talking to people, the issue at > least with the the lux is if the total AC loads are high enough all works > fine. If the total loads are low enough, typically under 1kw, and the 1/2 > wave is around 300 watts +/- it’s enough to shut the inverter off. > It does auto start solar least that’s good. > > That system was web connected and eg4 couldn’t identify what the cause was > from any of the online monitoring. They said check grounding and neutral > bonds etc. obviously that wasn’t the issue. > > Good luck > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 26, 2025, at 9:23 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I have the same issue, but a single inverter installation. It happened a > few times at night. > > No log entry. > > Tech support suggested upgrading to version 7. I asked for release notes. > I haven’t upgraded yet, I haven’t had time to go babysit it for the > customer. I’ve been trying to train the customer to do it himself. (bypass > mode, standby, etc. I did install a bypass switch and I also installed a > bluetti battery on the router.) > > Release notes would be nice. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Dec 26, 2025, at 10:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi all, > > I have two new systems experiencing random shutdowns anywhere from 48 > hours to 3 weeks apart. The inverters will simply shut off, going into > standby with no power to the loads, and absolutely nothing in the fault > logs. Turning them back on with the master inverter power switch or > remotely with app restores normal operation for some random period of time > before it happens again. > > Here are the similarities: > > -Parallel inverter systems (3 or 4 AIO) > -Powerflo16 batteries, closed loop comms (80 kWh and 112 kWh) > -Grid interactive systems with netmetering > -Large PV systems with DC Coupled PV on each inverter > -Shutdowns typically happen at night, early morning hours > -Loads are low and nothing out of the ordinary on the load side happening > at the time of shutdown > -Confirmed no errant Neutral to Ground bonds that shouldn't be there > -Proper installation of ferrite rings > -AP Smart RSDs > > Differences: > -Two different firmwares (but all firmware per site is the same per > inverter). Updated at different times by Midnite tech support remotely > > > Has anyone experienced anything like this, and if so, did you find a > resolution? > > I have a call into Midnite and hope to make some progress on Monday. I'm > seriously concerned, especially with one site that doesn't have a bypass > (due to space constraints). I can't have these sites going down and cutting > power to the homes! > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric Inc PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 1116835 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Dec 26 13:55:47 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 13:55:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Random Unexplained Shutdowns In-Reply-To: <1844EFDE-83CF-4A2F-AE7D-2B42BA8BDCB4@gmail.com> References: <1844EFDE-83CF-4A2F-AE7D-2B42BA8BDCB4@gmail.com> Message-ID: It has happened since installation at both sites. One house is new construction, and the issue started before any loads were even connected. Unfortunately, restarting the inverters requires manual intervention. With the AIOs, solar doesn't work in standby. Off is off. The inverters sit at idle and just draw battery/grid power to stay "up" and the WiFi interface stays powered (assuming the WiFi is otherwise powered). Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Dec 26, 2025, 1:20 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > So frustrating. > > A few questions. > Does the inverter restart on its own? > Has it done this since install? > Or is any new loads? > > I have had a LUX power 12kw do something similar. I don’t know if it is > connected to your issue. > > I finally tracked it down to a small 1/2 wave heater load in a bidet. > > As I learned more from some blogs and talking to people, the issue at > least with the the lux is if the total AC loads are high enough all works > fine. If the total loads are low enough, typically under 1kw, and the 1/2 > wave is around 300 watts +/- it’s enough to shut the inverter off. > It does auto start solar least that’s good. > > That system was web connected and eg4 couldn’t identify what the cause was > from any of the online monitoring. They said check grounding and neutral > bonds etc. obviously that wasn’t the issue. > > Good luck > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 26, 2025, at 9:23 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I have the same issue, but a single inverter installation. It happened a > few times at night. > > No log entry. > > Tech support suggested upgrading to version 7. I asked for release notes. > I haven’t upgraded yet, I haven’t had time to go babysit it for the > customer. I’ve been trying to train the customer to do it himself. (bypass > mode, standby, etc. I did install a bypass switch and I also installed a > bluetti battery on the router.) > > Release notes would be nice. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Dec 26, 2025, at 10:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi all, > > I have two new systems experiencing random shutdowns anywhere from 48 > hours to 3 weeks apart. The inverters will simply shut off, going into > standby with no power to the loads, and absolutely nothing in the fault > logs. Turning them back on with the master inverter power switch or > remotely with app restores normal operation for some random period of time > before it happens again. > > Here are the similarities: > > -Parallel inverter systems (3 or 4 AIO) > -Powerflo16 batteries, closed loop comms (80 kWh and 112 kWh) > -Grid interactive systems with netmetering > -Large PV systems with DC Coupled PV on each inverter > -Shutdowns typically happen at night, early morning hours > -Loads are low and nothing out of the ordinary on the load side happening > at the time of shutdown > -Confirmed no errant Neutral to Ground bonds that shouldn't be there > -Proper installation of ferrite rings > -AP Smart RSDs > > Differences: > -Two different firmwares (but all firmware per site is the same per > inverter). Updated at different times by Midnite tech support remotely > > > Has anyone experienced anything like this, and if so, did you find a > resolution? > > I have a call into Midnite and hope to make some progress on Monday. I'm > seriously concerned, especially with one site that doesn't have a bypass > (due to space constraints). I can't have these sites going down and cutting > power to the homes! > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyronehouck at gmail.com Fri Dec 26 14:33:47 2025 From: tyronehouck at gmail.com (Tyrone Houck) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 11:33:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Random Unexplained Shutdowns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I recommend doing the v7 update and following the installation tips pdf. With parallel inverters do the update onsite and clear the data/5 minute shutdown per recommendation. With single inverters it works fine remotely if you can keep internet on(I've just had the customer put it in bypass until the update was finished). V7 also includes an arc fault firmware update. V7 firmware has appeared to fixed this issue at the sites I've had issues with. I have yet to have an unexplained shutdown at any of my sites on v7. Hope that helps. It sure has helped me sleep better at night! On Fri, Dec 26, 2025, 9:22 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have the same issue, but a single inverter installation. It happened a > few times at night. > > No log entry. > > Tech support suggested upgrading to version 7. I asked for release notes. > I haven’t upgraded yet, I haven’t had time to go babysit it for the > customer. I’ve been trying to train the customer to do it himself. (bypass > mode, standby, etc. I did install a bypass switch and I also installed a > bluetti battery on the router.) > > Release notes would be nice. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > > On Dec 26, 2025, at 10:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi all, > > I have two new systems experiencing random shutdowns anywhere from 48 > hours to 3 weeks apart. The inverters will simply shut off, going into > standby with no power to the loads, and absolutely nothing in the fault > logs. Turning them back on with the master inverter power switch or > remotely with app restores normal operation for some random period of time > before it happens again. > > Here are the similarities: > > -Parallel inverter systems (3 or 4 AIO) > -Powerflo16 batteries, closed loop comms (80 kWh and 112 kWh) > -Grid interactive systems with netmetering > -Large PV systems with DC Coupled PV on each inverter > -Shutdowns typically happen at night, early morning hours > -Loads are low and nothing out of the ordinary on the load side happening > at the time of shutdown > -Confirmed no errant Neutral to Ground bonds that shouldn't be there > -Proper installation of ferrite rings > -AP Smart RSDs > > Differences: > -Two different firmwares (but all firmware per site is the same per > inverter). Updated at different times by Midnite tech support remotely > > > Has anyone experienced anything like this, and if so, did you find a > resolution? > > I have a call into Midnite and hope to make some progress on Monday. I'm > seriously concerned, especially with one site that doesn't have a bypass > (due to space constraints). I can't have these sites going down and cutting > power to the homes! > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Dec 26 15:23:33 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 15:23:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Random Unexplained Shutdowns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by V7 update, but one of the two sites is on Master DSP 0207G7 and CSB Version 207G6. The other site is on 020606 and 020611, respectively. Same exact problem, two different firmware versions... On both, I did the whole process step by step (except I was told 10 minutes shutdown). Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Dec 26, 2025 at 2:36 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I recommend doing the v7 update and following the installation tips pdf. > With parallel inverters do the update onsite and clear the data/5 minute > shutdown per recommendation. With single inverters it works fine remotely > if you can keep internet on(I've just had the customer put it in bypass > until the update was finished). V7 also includes an arc fault firmware > update. V7 firmware has appeared to fixed this issue at the sites I've had > issues with. I have yet to have an unexplained shutdown at any of my sites > on v7. Hope that helps. It sure has helped me sleep better at night! > > > > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2025, 9:22 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I have the same issue, but a single inverter installation. It happened a >> few times at night. >> >> No log entry. >> >> Tech support suggested upgrading to version 7. I asked for release notes. >> I haven’t upgraded yet, I haven’t had time to go babysit it for the >> customer. I’ve been trying to train the customer to do it himself. (bypass >> mode, standby, etc. I did install a bypass switch and I also installed a >> bluetti battery on the router.) >> >> Release notes would be nice. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> • Solar Commander Remote Power >> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> >> >> >> On Dec 26, 2025, at 10:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Hi all, >> >> I have two new systems experiencing random shutdowns anywhere from 48 >> hours to 3 weeks apart. The inverters will simply shut off, going into >> standby with no power to the loads, and absolutely nothing in the fault >> logs. Turning them back on with the master inverter power switch or >> remotely with app restores normal operation for some random period of time >> before it happens again. >> >> Here are the similarities: >> >> -Parallel inverter systems (3 or 4 AIO) >> -Powerflo16 batteries, closed loop comms (80 kWh and 112 kWh) >> -Grid interactive systems with netmetering >> -Large PV systems with DC Coupled PV on each inverter >> -Shutdowns typically happen at night, early morning hours >> -Loads are low and nothing out of the ordinary on the load side happening >> at the time of shutdown >> -Confirmed no errant Neutral to Ground bonds that shouldn't be there >> -Proper installation of ferrite rings >> -AP Smart RSDs >> >> Differences: >> -Two different firmwares (but all firmware per site is the same per >> inverter). Updated at different times by Midnite tech support remotely >> >> >> Has anyone experienced anything like this, and if so, did you find a >> resolution? >> >> I have a call into Midnite and hope to make some progress on Monday. I'm >> seriously concerned, especially with one site that doesn't have a bypass >> (due to space constraints). I can't have these sites going down and cutting >> power to the homes! >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Fri Dec 26 18:46:14 2025 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Richard Nicol) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 17:46:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Random Unexplained Shutdowns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51B3BEC9-4228-4AF9-B8BC-A407F766040C@solartechvt.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Dec 26 19:04:02 2025 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 16:04:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hoymiles Power HYS-7.6LV-USG1 HYS DC hybrid inverter Message-ID: Has anyone installed this DC coupled inverter or any of the other sizes? How is it performing? Brad Bassett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Dec 26 19:08:36 2025 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2025 19:08:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Random Unexplained Shutdowns In-Reply-To: <51B3BEC9-4228-4AF9-B8BC-A407F766040C@solartechvt.com> References: <51B3BEC9-4228-4AF9-B8BC-A407F766040C@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: Yikes. I have two clients with six-figure expenditures, and they have to deal with this - in the middle of the night - during the holidays. No fault codes. Random events. It doesn't inspire confidence. This sounds like a serious issue without a clear path to resolution. Honestly, I was hoping I did something obviously wrong (which I'm quite certain I didn't). Now that I know others are seeing the same issue, it sounds like a product/system/software problem. The proposed resolutions seem like throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. And I was thinking it might just be a parallel system issue, but now I learn it can happen with single inverters, too. Let's be real here. An errant N-G bond or missing ferrite ring shouldn't bring down a whole system randomly and without clear reason. The whole idea of these systems is resilience. I switched to Midnite AIO in hopes of resolving issues encountered with other manufacturers. I'm starting to question that decision. EG4 isn't perfect, but I am having far more success with their gear, and no unexplained issues, at least. The Sol-Ark issues are well documented at this point, but at least they don't have shutdowns without at least an error code to go on in my experience. I'm also dealing with some damaged on arrival batteries from Midnite that they seemingly want to blame on mishandling by my team. Unblemished boxes with damaged batteries inside, but somehow we mishandled them! The disassociation between Midnite Solar and Midnite Power is another red flag for me. It makes you wonder... I hope they realize how serious this is. I love the AIO for so many reasons, but my customers won't accept this lack of intial reliability out of the box. P.S. Tyrone privately shared with me that 020700 is working for him. I'm not sure why Midnite updated my sites to other firmwares. I'm thinking the next step is to try 020700. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Fri, Dec 26, 2025, 6:46 PM Richard Nicol wrote: > I’ve had the same issue on a couple of sites. Firmware version > 20606/20611. I’ve had it on previous versions as well. Random shut down, > no events logged. > Really makes for a happy customer! Especially when they are on vacation > and away from the house. > Tech support instructs to look for multiple N-G bonds, a weak ground and > usually they question to ensure ferrite rings for ground and battery are > both in the inverter cabinet. > Despite having the above in place we have still had the same experience. > I was looking forward to loading the newest firmware, but it sounds like > others are still seeing the same problem with the most recent version. > Hopefully Midnite get this sorted out soon, they don’t assign case numbers > so I don’t think they have tools in place to track the frequency and > commonality of reported issues. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 26, 2025, at 2:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Thanks. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by V7 update, but one of the > two sites is on Master DSP 0207G7 and CSB Version 207G6. The other site is > on 020606 and 020611, respectively. > > Same exact problem, two different firmware versions... > > On both, I did the whole process step by step (except I was told 10 > minutes shutdown). > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2025 at 2:36 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I recommend doing the v7 update and following the installation tips pdf. >> With parallel inverters do the update onsite and clear the data/5 minute >> shutdown per recommendation. With single inverters it works fine remotely >> if you can keep internet on(I've just had the customer put it in bypass >> until the update was finished). V7 also includes an arc fault firmware >> update. V7 firmware has appeared to fixed this issue at the sites I've had >> issues with. I have yet to have an unexplained shutdown at any of my sites >> on v7. Hope that helps. It sure has helped me sleep better at night! >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 26, 2025, 9:22 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I have the same issue, but a single inverter installation. It happened a >>> few times at night. >>> >>> No log entry. >>> >>> Tech support suggested upgrading to version 7. I asked for release >>> notes. I haven’t upgraded yet, I haven’t had time to go babysit it for the >>> customer. I’ve been trying to train the customer to do it himself. (bypass >>> mode, standby, etc. I did install a bypass switch and I also installed a >>> bluetti battery on the router.) >>> >>> Release notes would be nice. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Maverick >>> >>> Maverick Brown >>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >>> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >>> • Solar Commander Remote Power >>> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >>> maverick at mavericksolar.com >>> 512-460-9825 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Dec 26, 2025, at 10:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I have two new systems experiencing random shutdowns anywhere from 48 >>> hours to 3 weeks apart. The inverters will simply shut off, going into >>> standby with no power to the loads, and absolutely nothing in the fault >>> logs. Turning them back on with the master inverter power switch or >>> remotely with app restores normal operation for some random period of time >>> before it happens again. >>> >>> Here are the similarities: >>> >>> -Parallel inverter systems (3 or 4 AIO) >>> -Powerflo16 batteries, closed loop comms (80 kWh and 112 kWh) >>> -Grid interactive systems with netmetering >>> -Large PV systems with DC Coupled PV on each inverter >>> -Shutdowns typically happen at night, early morning hours >>> -Loads are low and nothing out of the ordinary on the load side >>> happening at the time of shutdown >>> -Confirmed no errant Neutral to Ground bonds that shouldn't be there >>> -Proper installation of ferrite rings >>> -AP Smart RSDs >>> >>> Differences: >>> -Two different firmwares (but all firmware per site is the same per >>> inverter). Updated at different times by Midnite tech support remotely >>> >>> >>> Has anyone experienced anything like this, and if so, did you find a >>> resolution? >>> >>> I have a call into Midnite and hope to make some progress on Monday. I'm >>> seriously concerned, especially with one site that doesn't have a bypass >>> (due to space constraints). I can't have these sites going down and cutting >>> power to the homes! >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Mon Dec 29 22:24:28 2025 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2025 22:24:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite AIO Random Unexplained Shutdowns In-Reply-To: References: <51B3BEC9-4228-4AF9-B8BC-A407F766040C@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: All, This thread has many components that I will try to address. MNP recommends that inverters *experiencing issues* be updated to V7 firmware, which is available on the service portal. This firmware includes a Shutdown Log that can be used to pinpoint shutdown events directly in the portal. MNP continues to improve firmware operation as wiring practices and operating conditions are identified that do not follow manual recommendations. V7 also includes many improvements related to ESS controls, which have been a source of issues in some installations. If you are experiencing shutdown issues, please contact MNP support. MNP is one of the only manufacturers that provides onsite training for installers. If you are having installation challenges, please let MNP know—they are happy to train your team. MNP also performs site visits to help ensure customer satisfaction. Please reach out to the MNP crew if you need assistance. During site visits, most inverter shutdown issues have been resolved by identifying wiring and configuration problems. Many of these involve improper CT placement and programming. If you are installing more than two inverters and the system is grid-tied, you should be using the CT Meter as outlined in the manual. Regarding comments about the batteries: MNP has sold thousands of PF16 batteries, with fewer than a dozen damaged during shipping. Once batteries leave the warehouse and are shipped to the distributor, they are no longer under the manufacturer’s control. We all know how rough shipping can be. As with solar panels, installers must inspect batteries for damage upon receipt. If damage is found, it should be claimed immediately. For battery warranty claims, MNP requires photos of the battery box, which contains the battery serial number. If the box is not retained, the process becomes more difficult. MNP does not ship batteries with holes in the case or with shifted cells. Batteries are shipped laying on their back, the only way to shift cells is to drop a 300-pound battery on its side. In short, the installer has responsibility to inspect equipment and retain packing materials until inspection is complete. MNP is *installer-focused*, not DIY, and is fully committed to this inverter platform. The goal is to build and support the best AIO on the market. MNP continues to add features and is currently the only AIO that fully supports lead-acid (LA) batteries. Additional enhancements for generator support and monitoring are forthcoming. Please reach out to the MNP team with any questions. On Fri, Dec 26, 2025 at 7:09 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yikes. I have two clients with six-figure expenditures, and they have to > deal with this - in the middle of the night - during the holidays. No fault > codes. Random events. It doesn't inspire confidence. This sounds like a > serious issue without a clear path to resolution. > > Honestly, I was hoping I did something obviously wrong (which I'm quite > certain I didn't). Now that I know others are seeing the same issue, it > sounds like a product/system/software problem. The proposed resolutions > seem like throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. > > And I was thinking it might just be a parallel system issue, but now I > learn it can happen with single inverters, too. > > Let's be real here. An errant N-G bond or missing ferrite ring shouldn't > bring down a whole system randomly and without clear reason. The whole idea > of these systems is resilience. I switched to Midnite AIO in hopes of > resolving issues encountered with other manufacturers. I'm starting to > question that decision. > > EG4 isn't perfect, but I am having far more success with their gear, and > no unexplained issues, at least. The Sol-Ark issues are well documented at > this point, but at least they don't have shutdowns without at least an > error code to go on in my experience. > > I'm also dealing with some damaged on arrival batteries from Midnite that > they seemingly want to blame on mishandling by my team. Unblemished boxes > with damaged batteries inside, but somehow we mishandled them! > > The disassociation between Midnite Solar and Midnite Power is another red > flag for me. It makes you wonder... > > I hope they realize how serious this is. I love the AIO for so many > reasons, but my customers won't accept this lack of intial reliability out > of the box. > > P.S. Tyrone privately shared with me that 020700 is working for him. I'm > not sure why Midnite updated my sites to other firmwares. I'm thinking the > next step is to try 020700. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2025, 6:46 PM Richard Nicol wrote: > >> I’ve had the same issue on a couple of sites. Firmware version >> 20606/20611. I’ve had it on previous versions as well. Random shut down, >> no events logged. >> Really makes for a happy customer! Especially when they are on vacation >> and away from the house. >> Tech support instructs to look for multiple N-G bonds, a weak ground and >> usually they question to ensure ferrite rings for ground and battery are >> both in the inverter cabinet. >> Despite having the above in place we have still had the same experience. >> I was looking forward to loading the newest firmware, but it sounds like >> others are still seeing the same problem with the most recent version. >> Hopefully Midnite get this sorted out soon, they don’t assign case >> numbers so I don’t think they have tools in place to track the frequency >> and commonality of reported issues. >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Dec 26, 2025, at 2:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Thanks. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by V7 update, but one of the >> two sites is on Master DSP 0207G7 and CSB Version 207G6. The other site is >> on 020606 and 020611, respectively. >> >> Same exact problem, two different firmware versions... >> >> On both, I did the whole process step by step (except I was told 10 >> minutes shutdown). >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 26, 2025 at 2:36 PM Tyrone Houck via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I recommend doing the v7 update and following the installation tips pdf. >>> With parallel inverters do the update onsite and clear the data/5 minute >>> shutdown per recommendation. With single inverters it works fine remotely >>> if you can keep internet on(I've just had the customer put it in bypass >>> until the update was finished). V7 also includes an arc fault firmware >>> update. V7 firmware has appeared to fixed this issue at the sites I've had >>> issues with. I have yet to have an unexplained shutdown at any of my sites >>> on v7. Hope that helps. It sure has helped me sleep better at night! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 26, 2025, 9:22 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I have the same issue, but a single inverter installation. It happened >>>> a few times at night. >>>> >>>> No log entry. >>>> >>>> Tech support suggested upgrading to version 7. I asked for release >>>> notes. I haven’t upgraded yet, I haven’t had time to go babysit it for the >>>> customer. I’ve been trying to train the customer to do it himself. (bypass >>>> mode, standby, etc. I did install a bypass switch and I also installed a >>>> bluetti battery on the router.) >>>> >>>> Release notes would be nice. >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Maverick >>>> >>>> Maverick Brown >>>> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >>>> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >>>> • Solar Commander Remote Power >>>> • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >>>> maverick at mavericksolar.com >>>> 512-460-9825 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Dec 26, 2025, at 10:53 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I have two new systems experiencing random shutdowns anywhere from 48 >>>> hours to 3 weeks apart. The inverters will simply shut off, going into >>>> standby with no power to the loads, and absolutely nothing in the fault >>>> logs. Turning them back on with the master inverter power switch or >>>> remotely with app restores normal operation for some random period of time >>>> before it happens again. >>>> >>>> Here are the similarities: >>>> >>>> -Parallel inverter systems (3 or 4 AIO) >>>> -Powerflo16 batteries, closed loop comms (80 kWh and 112 kWh) >>>> -Grid interactive systems with netmetering >>>> -Large PV systems with DC Coupled PV on each inverter >>>> -Shutdowns typically happen at night, early morning hours >>>> -Loads are low and nothing out of the ordinary on the load side >>>> happening at the time of shutdown >>>> -Confirmed no errant Neutral to Ground bonds that shouldn't be there >>>> -Proper installation of ferrite rings >>>> -AP Smart RSDs >>>> >>>> Differences: >>>> -Two different firmwares (but all firmware per site is the same per >>>> inverter). Updated at different times by Midnite tech support remotely >>>> >>>> >>>> Has anyone experienced anything like this, and if so, did you find a >>>> resolution? >>>> >>>> I have a call into Midnite and hope to make some progress on Monday. >>>> I'm seriously concerned, especially with one site that doesn't have a >>>> bypass (due to space constraints). I can't have these sites going down and >>>> cutting power to the homes! >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com Tue Dec 30 23:36:52 2025 From: gowdyelectriccambria at gmail.com (Jim Gowdy) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2025 20:36:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] kilovault 2400 HLX Lithium Battery Charging..... Message-ID: Does anyone have any experience with the Kilovault 2400 HLX 12v batteries. I have a customer that wants to hook up a generator to his system and go over programming on an outback system. I looked up this battery company and they don't have a website and their phone number didn't work so I assume the company is out of business. I found a manual and the specs state that the bulk charge time is 2 minutes per battery I assume. I'm still a rookie and learning the proper charging parameters for different kinds of batteries so any help would be appreciated. He hasn't given me much info, but apparently there are...... -8 batteries on a 48v system. I assume the batteries are 2 strings of 4 batteries. -Outback FXR 30/48 inverter -Outback FM Charge Controller. He didn't say what size, but the assumption is 80a -MATE 3 controller -Solar....not known at the moment -Gasoline powered 120v output portable generator.....KW is unknown at the moment. *I don't like this, but it's what the customer bought. -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sue at midnitesolar.com Wed Dec 31 07:17:46 2025 From: Sue at midnitesolar.com (Sue Stankevitz) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2025 12:17:46 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] kilovault 2400 HLX Lithium Battery Charging..... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jim, This was the Alt-E Store’s brand, they closed about 5(?) years ago. I know that Chris Brown over at Solamp has been helpful at times on providing information on these batteries, he was an employee at Alt-E. If you don’t find the information you need here you may want to reach out to him. Sue Stankevitz MidNite Solar, Inc. (360) 403-7207 (XT122) [cid:image001.gif at 01DC7A25.8FBA1D70] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2025 11:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jim Gowdy Subject: [RE-wrenches] kilovault 2400 HLX Lithium Battery Charging..... Does anyone have any experience with the Kilovault 2400 HLX 12v batteries. I have a customer that wants to hook up a generator to his system and go over programming on an outback system. I looked up this battery company and they don't have a website and their phone number didn't work so I assume the company is out of business. I found a manual and the specs state that the bulk charge time is 2 minutes per battery I assume. I'm still a rookie and learning the proper charging parameters for different kinds of batteries so any help would be appreciated. He hasn't given me much info, but apparently there are...... -8 batteries on a 48v system. I assume the batteries are 2 strings of 4 batteries. -Outback FXR 30/48 inverter -Outback FM Charge Controller. He didn't say what size, but the assumption is 80a -MATE 3 controller -Solar....not known at the moment -Gasoline powered 120v output portable generator.....KW is unknown at the moment. *I don't like this, but it's what the customer bought. -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4417 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 09:48:47 2025 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2025 07:48:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] kilovault 2400 HLX Lithium Battery Charging..... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A00ADB2-065B-487D-BEA1-1ACE997D25DC@gmail.com> Hi jim As you have 4 battereis in series, you should use balancing devices between them. The kilovaukt are very susceptible to getting out of balance between batteries. I had to work with a customer to fix his kilovault battereis. Numerous failures which was traced back to broken balancers. Victron make good ones. Jay > On Dec 30, 2025, at 9:39 PM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Does anyone have any experience with the Kilovault 2400 HLX 12v batteries. I have a customer that wants to hook up a generator to his system and go over programming on an outback system. I looked up this battery company and they don't have a website and their phone number didn't work so I assume the company is out of business. I found a manual and the specs state that the bulk charge time is 2 minutes per battery I assume. I'm still a rookie and learning the proper charging parameters for different kinds of batteries so any help would be appreciated. He hasn't given me much info, but apparently there are...... > -8 batteries on a 48v system. I assume the batteries are 2 strings of 4 batteries. > > -Outback FXR 30/48 inverter > > -Outback FM Charge Controller. He didn't say what size, but the assumption is 80a > > -MATE 3 controller > > -Solar....not known at the moment > > -Gasoline powered 120v output portable generator.....KW is unknown at the moment. *I don't like this, but it's what the customer bought. > > > -- > Jim with Gowdy Electric > Cambria, Ca 93428 > business 805 927 2630 > cell 805 975 5279 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Dec 31 11:18:44 2025 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2025 09:18:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] kilovault 2400 HLX Lithium Battery Charging..... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31610BC6-2F26-4A72-B01A-D1D7F3DDD248@starlightsolar.com> Hello Jim, If you ever need Kilovolt battery service for the 100, 200 or 300AH, we stock parts, can update firmware and repair batteries. It is important to use 12 volt balancers between each series pair. Victron Battery Balancer has been an excellent product. Be sure to use the cross connectors for each parallel battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Power Systems  On Dec 30, 2025, at 9:36 PM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches wrote: Does anyone have any experience with the Kilovault 2400 HLX 12v batteries. I have a customer that wants to hook up a generator to his system and go over programming on an outback system. I looked up this battery company and they don't have a website and their phone number didn't work so I assume the company is out of business. I found a manual and the specs state that the bulk charge time is 2 minutes per battery I assume. I'm still a rookie and learning the proper charging parameters for different kinds of batteries so any help would be appreciated. He hasn't given me much info, but apparently there are...... -8 batteries on a 48v system. I assume the batteries are 2 strings of 4 batteries. -Outback FXR 30/48 inverter -Outback FM Charge Controller. He didn't say what size, but the assumption is 80a -MATE 3 controller -Solar....not known at the moment -Gasoline powered 120v output portable generator.....KW is unknown at the moment. *I don't like this, but it's what the customer bought. -- Jim with Gowdy Electric Cambria, Ca 93428 business 805 927 2630 cell 805 975 5279 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot 2025-12-31 at 9.13.47 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 640903 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 13:30:05 2025 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2025 12:30:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] kilovault 2400 HLX Lithium Battery Charging..... In-Reply-To: <2A00ADB2-065B-487D-BEA1-1ACE997D25DC@gmail.com> References: <2A00ADB2-065B-487D-BEA1-1ACE997D25DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I hope I am responding correctly. Each battery has a built-in circuit that is called a top balancer. When a cell in the battery reaches full charge the circuit bypasses that cell with a top balance current making the whole battery drop to that top balance current. any battery connected in series with that battery is forced to that current, such that it will have to charge at the top balance current of the first battery to go to top balance current. best thing is to use a 48 volt lithium battery. If you must use these batteries use a good battery balancer, Victron is the best but still not as a 48 volt battery. On Wed, Dec 31, 2025 at 12:01 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi jim > > As you have 4 battereis in series, you should use balancing devices > between them. The kilovaukt are very susceptible to getting out of balance > between batteries. > > I had to work with a customer to fix his kilovault battereis. Numerous > failures which was traced back to broken balancers. > > Victron make good ones. > > Jay > > > > On Dec 30, 2025, at 9:39 PM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > >  > > Does anyone have any experience with the Kilovault 2400 HLX 12v > batteries. I have a customer that wants to hook up a generator to his > system and go over programming on an outback system. I looked up this > battery company and they don't have a website and their phone number didn't > work so I assume the company is out of business. I found a manual and the > specs state that the bulk charge time is 2 minutes per battery I assume. > I'm still a rookie and learning the proper charging parameters for > different kinds of batteries so any help would be appreciated. He hasn't > given me much info, but apparently there are...... > > -8 batteries on a 48v system. I assume the batteries are 2 strings of 4 > batteries. > > > > -Outback FXR 30/48 inverter > > > > -Outback FM Charge Controller. He didn't say what size, but the > assumption is 80a > > > > -MATE 3 controller > > > > -Solar....not known at the moment > > > > -Gasoline powered 120v output portable generator.....KW is unknown at > the moment. *I don't like this, but it's what the customer bought. > > > > > > -- > > Jim with Gowdy Electric > > Cambria, Ca 93428 > > business 805 927 2630 > > cell 805 975 5279 > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Dec 31 15:05:03 2025 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2025 13:05:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] kilovault 2400 HLX Lithium Battery Charging..... In-Reply-To: References: <2A00ADB2-065B-487D-BEA1-1ACE997D25DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Darryl, Quote: "When a cell in the battery reaches full charge the circuit bypasses that cell” Not exactly. The BMS balance circuit reduces current (example 300ma) to any cell that has reached the balance voltage setting (example 3.55v) while other lower SoC cells in series continue charging. If a cell reaches the over voltage protection limit (about 3.8V for LFP), the BMS will disable all current flow. All batteries in series with this battery will stop charging due to the open circuit BMS. This can quickly cause a series battery bank to become out of balance. A battery balancer like Victron is very effective in preventing this. Larry Crutcher Starlight Power Systems On Dec 31, 2025, at 11:30 AM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: I hope I am responding correctly. Each battery has a built-in circuit that is called a top balancer. When a cell in the battery reaches full charge the circuit bypasses that cell with a top balance current making the whole battery drop to that top balance current. any battery connected in series with that battery is forced to that current, such that it will have to charge at the top balance current of the first battery to go to top balance current. best thing is to use a 48 volt lithium battery. If you must use these batteries use a good battery balancer, Victron is the best but still not as a 48 volt battery. On Wed, Dec 31, 2025 at 12:01 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi jim > > As you have 4 battereis in series, you should use balancing devices between them. The kilovaukt are very susceptible to getting out of balance between batteries. > > I had to work with a customer to fix his kilovault battereis. Numerous failures which was traced back to broken balancers. > > Victron make good ones. > > Jay > > > > On Dec 30, 2025, at 9:39 PM, Jim Gowdy via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > > >  > > Does anyone have any experience with the Kilovault 2400 HLX 12v batteries. I have a customer that wants to hook up a generator to his system and go over programming on an outback system. I looked up this battery company and they don't have a website and their phone number didn't work so I assume the company is out of business. I found a manual and the specs state that the bulk charge time is 2 minutes per battery I assume. I'm still a rookie and learning the proper charging parameters for different kinds of batteries so any help would be appreciated. He hasn't given me much info, but apparently there are...... > > -8 batteries on a 48v system. I assume the batteries are 2 strings of 4 batteries. > > > > -Outback FXR 30/48 inverter > > > > -Outback FM Charge Controller. He didn't say what size, but the assumption is 80a > > > > -MATE 3 controller > > > > -Solar....not known at the moment > > > > -Gasoline powered 120v output portable generator.....KW is unknown at the moment. *I don't like this, but it's what the customer bought. > > > > > > -- > > Jim with Gowdy Electric > > Cambria, Ca 93428 > > business 805 927 2630 > > cell 805 975 5279 > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: